September 9, 2025 • 52 mins
If they finish… then shut down, this episode is for you. Today we break down dismissive-avoidant attachment in the bedroom—why someone can crave the physical but avoid the intimate—and what actually works to make connection (and foreplay/aftercare) easier.
I’m joined by Dr. Sam Zand, holistic psychiatrist, Chief Medical Officer at Better U, and founder of Anywhere Clinic. We cover:
- How dismissive-avoidant shows up in flirting, foreplay, sex, and aftercare
- Why intensity ≠ intimacy (and the “walls up after sex” moment)
- Common patterns: control kinks, porn/solo focus, skipping aftercare, substance-aided intimacy
- Nervous system basics: safety, arousal, orgasm, and freeze responses
- Tangible tools both partners can use tonight: eye contact, breath syncing, clear aftercare scripts, and “safe-to-connect” micro-habits
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Do the sex pleasure and desire Around here.
Nothing's off limits.
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends and, of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you, and if
(00:40):
you're new, welcome to mypodcast.
Where desire meets disruptionand pleasure becomes power.
Now let's talk about sex Cheers.
Today's Talk Sex with Annette.
Topic is dismissive, avoidantattachment and how it shows up
(01:00):
in the bedroom.
What happens when someone whocraves independence, someone who
prides themselves on beingself-sufficient and emotionally
detached, gets into the bedroom?
What happens when someone whocraves independence, someone who
prides themselves on beingself-sufficient and emotionally
detached, gets into the bedroom?
I'm talking about dismissive,avoidant attachment style.
We all know that the attachmenttheory shapes how we connect in
relationships, but what abouthow we connect in bed during sex
(01:24):
?
Why might someone avoidintimacy right after sex,
struggle with foreplay or seemchecked out even when they're
physically present?
And, most importantly, can thatchange?
To help me break this down, I'mjoined by Dr Sam Zand, a
psychiatrist educator andfounder of Anywhere Clinic, a
national telepsychiatry platform.
(01:46):
Dr Zand is also the chiefmedical officer of Better you,
where he helps expand access topsychedelic-assisted therapies.
He integrates holisticpsychiatry with cutting-edge
neuroplastic therapies to healtrauma at its root.
Basically, if anyone can helpus understand how dismissive
(02:06):
avoidance shows up in thebedroom and how to work with it,
it's him.
But before we dive in, I want toremind you that I'm over on
OnlyFans and there I am sharingmy intimacy how-tos, my audio
guided self-pleasure meditationsand a lot of other information
to help you start having betterintimacy tonight.
You can also find me over onSubstack doing a whole lot of
(02:28):
the same, and you can find me inboth places with my handle at
TalkSexWithAnette.
Of course, you can scroll downto the notes under this episode
and you can click on all thelinks that are going to bring
you to find me wherever you wantto find me.
I look forward to seeing youthere.
And now, dr Sam, will you takea moment to tell my listeners a
(02:49):
little bit more about you?
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm a holistic psychiatrist.
I think it's important to havethat disclaimer.
When you hear just psychiatry,a lot of people just think, oh,
medications and overprescriptionand just diagnosing everybody
is pathologized.
But in fact I think what weneed to do is look at the soul,
really zoom out and understandthat we're treating the psyche,
we're treating the mind, we'retrying to nourish and improve,
(03:14):
restore the soul.
That's the work that I'm up to,whether it's biologically,
psychologically or spiritually,really just trying to help
impact people finding themselvesand being able to be authentic
in who they are.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So, listeners, I want you to stay to the end, of
course, because, first of all, Iknow that a lot of us are
either frustrated with avoidance, dismissive avoidance in
particular, with avoidance,dismissive avoidance in
particular I'm not saying myself, but I might be talking about
myself or we ourselves recognizethat we are dismissive,
(03:53):
avoidant and it's interruptingour ability to have the kind of
connections and sex that we wantto.
And by the end of this podcast,not only are you going to have
a better understanding of what'sgoing on there and exactly how
it's affecting your sex life.
We're, of course, going to giveyou those takeaways so that you
can start making a differencein your own life tonight or this
(04:14):
afternoon, or wherever andwhenever you decide to get into
the bedroom again with yourselfor someone else, so you will
have tangible, immediate thingsthat you can do to deal with
this situation at hand.
So I am ready.
I'm excited about thisconversation because I have been
in bed with more than onedismissive avoidant in my life
(04:37):
and I would like to make surethe next time it happens should
it happen it ends better.
So let's talk about thedismissive avoidant and sex
Cheers.
All right, avoidance.
I love you guys, I do.
I chase you sometimes, or Iused to, but we got to work on
(04:59):
some shit, so let's do it.
For listeners who might be newto the attachment theory, can
you explain what dismissiveavoidant attachment is and what
it looks like in day-to-day life?
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, Attachment style can be very
psychoanalytical.
We can get into things fromchildhood to parenting, to
intimate relationship history.
But if we're really talkingabout what is the avoidant,
dismissive feeling like?
How does it show up?
Is it me?
Is it my previous partner, mycurrent partner?
This is someone who doesn't feellike closeness is what they
(05:38):
want.
Closeness feels like a threat.
And maybe sexual connection,physical intimacy, is desired,
it's practiced, but thatcloseness it feels threatening,
not as a gift.
That vulnerability becomesdifficult.
We might have the person whofinishes orgasm and all of a
(05:59):
sudden walls go up again.
Right, it's like that.
Maybe that time where I allowedmyself to connect, that's a
don't want to cuddle anymore,Don't want any more of that
action after.
And so it's this strugglebetween we.
All want sex, but we have ahard time with the vulnerability
between it.
(06:20):
It's not a lack of desire oflove, it's self-protection, and
so this avoidance habit becomes.
Sometimes it's even with self.
We always say the relationshipwith others begins with our
relationship with self.
Many times, as we understandattachment styles, they're
rooted in shame, they're rootedin guilt, they're rooted in fear
(06:40):
, and so this conversation is anunderstanding of how it shows
up, why it shows up and what wecan do if we really want to
change that.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
How does someone with dismissive, avoidant attachment
view sex itself?
So I define sex as being somuch more than just the actual
in the bedroom having sex.
But sex and intimacy how dothey define it for themselves?
Speaker 1 (07:05):
having sex.
But sex and intimacy how dothey define it for themselves?
Yeah, it can show up in anumber of ways.
Often it's transactional, right.
There's a control mechanism of.
Sex may be approached as thephysical act devoid of the
emotional connection.
It can often show up with akind of preference for wanting
to be independent.
(07:26):
They might be.
Sex is not what others willthink is connecting us, but it
gives me my independence, itgives me what I want.
It's somewhat one way.
There's an emotional detachment.
You know it's.
It's really.
I think that's the core.
It's that discomfort wasvulnerability.
(07:47):
So the view of sex, where somemight see it as a spiritual
connection, some might see it asa shared experience of emotion,
some might just see it aspleasure.
Key here is that we don'tprefer the closeness, we don't
prefer the emotional bond.
We actually have a hard timewith that.
(08:07):
So sex can be still veryarousing, it can still be very
exciting, but it's often metwith a negative emotion
afterwards.
I think that's a hallmark.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Okay, In my mind I'm like are they all bad in bed?
Does that make them better?
You know, I don't know why Iwent there, but I went there
because good sex, where you'regetting into like the juicy
stuff and you're able to likeplay a little bit, take some
level of connection of sex.
(08:41):
Or, when you say transactional,can it be very mechanical to
avoid that connection requiredto experiment and flow with
another human being?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, I think experiments and flow is very,
somewhat different than play,because experiment and flow
suggests that we are present,we're meeting together where we
are and we're going to gothrough this and explore it
together in a fun, exciting way.
But play can be manufactured,play can be manipulative, play
can be strategic, and so maybewe found a way that is playful,
(09:18):
but it's still not connecting ussoul to soul emotionally.
Right, it's still a method ofenhancing arousal, pleasure,
control, something that we want,but that want is not a
connection.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Might a dismissive avoidant have specific fetishes,
kinks or interests sexually?
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that when we go overfetishes and kinks in psychology
, we have to understand that themajority of them come from some
mix of aggression, some mix ofpast experience, whether it was
arousal to aggression, right.
Somewhere there got mixed intothis idea of I'm doing this
(10:07):
thing that's taboo For somereason.
I found it to not be okay, andso in that we might see the
avoidant, dismissive, wanting toexert control power force,
maybe in a BDSM type of way.
Because it preserves that wall,it preserves that protection.
(10:30):
We may desire to be more of avoyeur, because it keeps us safe
, it keeps us distanced from thedifficult emotion that maybe
makes this complicated to theego, whereas otherwise it would
just be bliss.
Right, if we like thesefetishes and kinks and they're
harmonic with the ego, thenthere wouldn't be any kind of
(10:52):
discord, we would just be in astate of bliss.
So it's not to suggest that anyof these fetishes can't be
without bliss.
It's whether it's ego-dystonicor ego-harmonic.
So I think that's an importantpart of this as well.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
So I'm going to ask you to drill down.
What are some other kinks,fetishes or types of sex that
somebody types of sex andintimacy that somebody, with
dismissive avoidance, might wantor look for or seek out or
initiate in the bedroom?
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So we talked about some control themes, right,
because we want to preserve thatsense of control and distance
ourselves a little bit.
I think to the other extreme,there would be also what we kind
of tend to refer to as mutualmasturbation.
(11:52):
It's like we're not reallythere to pleasure each other,
we're there to pleasureourselves through the experience
of each other, and then thekink is just in the mind and we
start to have more cognitive sexthan somatic sex, because we're
actually not sharing anexperience, we're living our own
and we found, maybe, a strategythat works that doesn't expose
(12:16):
what's going on in my mind butwe're able to ar it from
developing more intimately, moreemotionally.
So we don't actually know eachother, it's a one night stand or
(12:46):
it's a, you know, manipulativerole play that we're
encountering together.
So I think it's reallyintensity over intimacy.
It's the let's focus on thephysical act and not the
emotional, and that can show upin any kink, and so that's not
to be judgmental, right.
It's just emotional and thatcan show up in any kink, and so
(13:06):
that's not to be judgmental,right.
It's just teach their ownfilter of how they enjoy it.
So maybe there's a predominancein control kinks, maybe there's
a predominance in kinks thatdistance us like voyeurism, or,
I think, though, the ones thatwe don't see a lot of avoidant
dismissive is where we actuallyexpose ourselves to a little bit
of the vulnerable recipientside of things.
(13:29):
So if it was BDSM, usually theavoidant dismissive would be the
one inflicting the pain, havingthe control, whereas the
avoidant dismissive likelywouldn't want to have the
control taken away because thatsuggests safety, and that's
usually not the MO, or literallytransactional sex or looking
(14:09):
for consecutive one-night standswith different people as
opposed to building an ongoingrelationship.
Yeah, absolutely yes.
I think that if we are tryingto continue to find ways to find
pleasure but we can't findconnection, then masturbation,
pornography this has become soaccessible these days that it's
(14:34):
a survival mechanism.
It's a defense mechanism thatworks.
We actually relax our nervoussystem, we self-soothe, we don't
have to deal with thevulnerability, conflict, the
challenge One night stands.
Similarly, it's even infidelity, where there's perhaps an
assumption that this isn't goingto go any further.
(14:54):
We both understand that we'redoing something bad, something
wrong.
Quote unquote.
And so there isn't a bridgetowards emotion, right?
It's circumstances like thatthat we find ourselves in People
who are just not available, youknow, because we don't want to
be available either, even if inour core and in the wants and
the need, and then the reactionis very different.
(15:15):
Someone might want connection,but they are not comfortable
with it, so they subconsciouslybuild patterns and relationships
to keep that all up.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
So it's not always like in our heart and mind,
aligned with our nervous systemand our reactions.
So it sounds like there's alsosome self-sabotaging behavior
there.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
And any defense mechanismthat's maladaptive, right, that
ends up turning into somethingthat isn't serving us, it's.
It's a coping skill that, yeah,it's.
It's.
We're doing it to preserve,maybe, the thing that made us
feel wounded before, that issensitive, that is vulnerable,
(16:00):
that actually ready to bring toum the situation, even though it
can be so enlightening andcathartic to work through that.
Instead, we're not ready forthat.
You know, this is the struggle.
Freud says half of life isdealing with our sexual desire
(16:21):
and half of life is dealing withour aggressive desire.
These are the things thatmotivate the human psyche.
If we boil it down and to findcontrol over it is what we're
always trying.
We want control and sometimesjust to surrender to it and be
with it and understand it asokay.
That's when we overcome some ofthose walls.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
How might having a dismissive, avoidant attachment
style affect one's approach toforeplay?
Speaker 1 (16:54):
That's an interesting question.
It's an interesting question.
So, if we think of foreplay asthe gradual build of sensual
desire, as this kind of song anddance of delayed gratification.
Delayed gratification oftensuggests a sense of trust, a
(17:16):
sense of we're going to actuallyget there in the end, right
Versus I need that instantgratification, I want it now.
Let's skip the foreplay.
And so I think that to reallyembrace delayed gratification,
most of the time you need tofeel safe, you need to feel
trust, and so perhaps probablynot the most common or the
(17:38):
easiest thing to get intoforeplay Now, I don't think
that's 100%.
Sometimes foreplay can be partof the mechanism that separates
us.
It doesn't have to be one sizefits all.
If we think about foreplay inthe sense of building slow
comfort and enhancing arousaltogether towards delayed
(18:00):
gratification, that might be achallenge.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
So it might be something they avoid engaging in
.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Yeah, and again, unless it's used as a defense
mechanism.
This foreplay is for me toovercome the fact that I don't
want to get vulnerable.
So now I have a tool that I canuse to in pattern, you know be
able to arouse.
You get me aroused and now wemove through again, becoming
more focused on the physical andthe emotional so, hey guys, if
(18:29):
they're skipping foreplay, makethem take the attachment quiz,
oh, but maybe.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
so talking about foreplay and how that could be
something that they would avoid,because foreplay is like a
dance to bring you closer tothen fully engaging in sex, I
want to say, and I want to stepsort of out of the bed or before
the bedroom right when you'relike, which is a form of I I
would argue for a play but theflirting, the seduction, the
(19:01):
seduction phase of wooing alover and trying to get them
into bed, because, as we talkabout dismissive, avoidant
attachment, I'm like are thesethe fuckboys of the world?
Boy, b-o-y and B boy, boy andboi I'm talking about every
gender here is that, is thatwhat we're talking about here?
(19:23):
I'm curious about if you knowthat's so scary for them, I mean
, but they are also probablywanting to get laid like where?
How do they act in theseduction part of this dance to
get someone into bed?
What are some signs we can lookfor?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, I think guarded flirtation when the flirtation
is more teasing, it's morecreating a little bit of that
separation that can be seductiveand attractive, rather than
flirtation that is actually moreconnecting.
You're wanting to get to knowsomebody in a way and
(20:01):
complimenting them in waysbecause you're actually getting
to know who they are thatguarded flirtation can feel
almost like too much exposure.
So we want to be maybe a littlebit more teasing or more, you
know, negative, like thechildhood's playground or
(20:22):
interesting.
And I think there's a preferencefor indirect initiation.
This is most commonly insociety with substances right.
When we're sober we're actuallymeeting each other in a state
of intimacy, usually because wedon't have any other way of
numbing out from being theretogether.
(20:43):
Often most of us, I think insociety, have realized that
sober sex is completelydifferent and this desire to
just kind of use substances tonumb out can be a big sign of
that avoidance as well.
And just kind of use substancesto numb out can be a big sign
of that avoidance as well.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
If there's emotional so they get flirty when they get
drunk, they get drunk, orwhatever.
Then suddenly they turn it onand they get flirty.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Right, whereas before they were guarded right.
That's a clear sign where, ifwe have that disinhibition all
of a sudden now we're feelingmore safe and more trustworthy.
That's normal for all humans.
But you know, is it mechanizedevery time?
Is the absolute?
(21:31):
This is the only way I can getto intimacy is through
disinhibition numbing it out,changing my chemical state
through disinhibition, numbingit out, changing my chemical
state.
So I think avoidance of sobersex is probably high on this
list as well.
But bringing it back toforeplay, bringing it back to
flirtation, there's often adiscomfort with being desired.
(21:53):
So you can think about theperson who's avoidant and maybe
isn't putting themselves outthere.
But what about the person who'savoidant, dismissive't putting
themselves out there?
What about the person who isavoidant, dismissive, but is the
attraction of everyone's desire?
They are actually uncomfortablewith that because it's hard to
trust, it's hard to build thatrelationship, it's hard to want
to create closeness andconnection.
Often it might be morecomfortable with someone who
(22:15):
doesn't desire us as muchovertly those overt signs might
be a little bit too intrusiveInteresting For them.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
If someone directly desires them and pursues them
like someone who's anxious, thatis going to cause them to maybe
be like the wall goes up.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Dribble with emotional connection.
I might even like that person,but if I'm avoidant, dismissive,
I don't want this to continueand so, subconsciously, the
pattern might be that I go backto the person who kind of puts
me down because it feels like,oh, they don't really want me
that much and that's safer forme.
This not only is protection asa wall, but also the psychology
(23:05):
of mimicking what we grew upwith.
Often, when the love of aparent is mixed with abuse mixed
with verbal, emotional, evensexual abuse, it can create this
pattern of comfort.
It's not what we want or desire, but we're just used to it and
it makes sense.
And part of the reason is thatwe have not built comfort with
(23:26):
the unconditional love andsafety of building intimacy and
vulnerability.
We grew up with fear, but thatfear was entangled with love and
so we're used to that and thatfeels more safe.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
That's fascinating.
I was actually thinking back to.
It was about two years ago andso we're used to that and I
guess maybe at the time I hadn'treally thought about the
(24:00):
attachment style of this person.
But I recognize they alwayswent after and I only ever saw
them pursue people who treatedthem poorly and sort of the
meaner these people were to them, the more they could pursue
them.
And one of the last times wesat down together I finally said
to them you know, it seems likeyou prefer to date people who
(24:23):
are shitty to you, and this madethem very angry at me and they
never spoke to me again.
But that's so.
That's an interesting framingof it.
I hadn't ever thought of thefact that somebody with that
dismissive, avoidant attachmentmight be more likely to actually
pursue somebody who treats themlike directly, treats them
(24:47):
poorly, right, whereas I feellike myself who has tended
towards anxious.
I used to pursue people whowould not be mean to me but
start to withhold affection butnot necessarily be mean to me.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Not to dive in fully here, but that withholding that
emotional unavailability ifthat's something that we
experienced when we were young,then this is comfortable.
This makes sense.
There becomes almost aconditional, you know, affection
towards that middle state.
(25:22):
Right now we don't want to beabused, but we also don't want
to be like kind of praised,coddled, complimented, loved,
adored as much, sometimes asscary, and it's not something
we're used to and it might be.
It feel threatening because thelove that we're used to is a
little bit more withheld.
Again, it's not right or wrong,good or bad.
(25:42):
That self-awareness can lead uson any path to bliss and
happiness.
It's just deeper learning ofself to get there.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Right back to what you were saying about how a
dismissive avoidant in theflirtation stage might kind of
like engage in careful teasing,but not like full, like it
sounds like they don'tnecessarily love bomb, like
they're not going to like give alot of like you're gorgeous,
(26:15):
you're amazing, I want to bewith you.
But they might just maybetitrate in a little bit of
flirtation and for someone who'sanxious that could be like
catnip right, oh, I got a littlecompliment, I'm going to like I
want more.
So maybe more of thebreadcrumbing kind of behavior
(26:36):
occurs during the flirtationstage with someone who has
dismissive avoidance.
Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Yeah, yeah, I think all the way to deflection.
You know it's the breadcrumbseither being received or given.
Sometimes, if we're receivingthat, it might feel good.
The anxious attachment styleactually really loves flirtation
.
Right To receive it because itvalidates the insecurity.
(27:03):
But dismissive, avoidant ismore about safety.
It's more about vulnerabilityrather than insecurity and these
things can overlap and sosafety might want to deflect the
flirtatious advance.
On the side of beingflirtatious, it may be very
(27:28):
indirect, it may be guarded.
It may be difficult to fullyengage emotionally and can be
just more like that sexual tease.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Interesting.
All right, well, that's veryinsightful.
I find myself kind of goingthrough my life experiences,
going oh okay, now I get itright.
What are some sexualdysfunctions, if you will, that
could show up in the bedroombecause of this particular
(27:58):
attachment style?
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Yeah, this is big, I think, for both men, women all
sorts of interactions, I thinkparallel, but there are some
unique differences as well.
But the parallel ones is thatwe need we all need a sense of
relaxation to achieve arousalright, and if we're not feeling
(28:25):
safe, it's hard to get aroused.
So this is where someone wouldhave low sex drive or low libido
, because it's hard to even feelsafe enough for that desire to
come up.
Our nervous system has to feelrelaxed.
That's what we call aparasympathetic, that rest and
repair feeling.
Now the flip side, orgasm comesfrom that fight or flight
(28:47):
response in the nervous system,that sympathetic, and so that
could be possible because wecould still have that fight or
flight.
That's actually predominant.
It's fear that charges thenervous system in that way.
But often, when there's fearthat overconsumes us for too
long, we fall into a third modeof the nervous system, which is
(29:08):
that freeze, and that freeze canalso lead to not only low
libido, low sex drive, butanorgasmia, where we fail to
achieve orgasm.
Now, men more often I don't wantto stereotype, but there are
just majority associations basedon hormones and such tend to be
(29:29):
a little bit more cognitive andpleasure is a little bit more
an act of dominance.
Little bit more an act ofdominance right, and whereas
generally, traditionally women,sex is an act of safety and
(29:52):
trust, and so the man might notdeal with the anorgasmia as much
as he would deal with the fetaldysfunction, whereas the woman
may have the anorgasmia moreoften.
Those are just generalities.
I think understanding thenervous system and the way that
we require safety is really thekey here for how the dysfunction
shows up.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
All right.
Well, so now we're to the goodpart.
We've listed, first of all,we've defined what dismissive,
avoidant detachment is.
We've talked about specificallynot only how it shows up in
life but in the flirtatiousstage, the beginnings, the
foreplay stages of sex, duringsex.
Little bit about aftercare,that they may just skip the
(30:33):
aftercare.
The aftercare and comingtogether and really basking in
that post-sex experience couldbe skipped altogether and they
may be jumping up, pulling theirclothes on and saying, hey, got
to go do this or that.
So annoying and the dysfunctionthat can show up there.
Oh, so annoying and thedysfunction that can show up
(30:58):
there.
So this is the good part.
Let's talk about the ways inwhich we can work to fix that,
if you will, or move towardsmore secure, oriented sex where
we get to enjoy that connectedsex or even if it's not fully
connected, we're getting the funforeplay, we're getting the
(31:19):
filling sex and, hopefully, someaftercare.
What are some things that wecan do?
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah, absolutely so.
The first is to buildself-awareness.
If we're not aware we're justpassive passengers in life,
right, we got to get in thedriver's seat and understand who
we are, how we show up, why weshow up that way.
And this is a challenge forsomeone who can be either
dismissive or avoidant, becausenot only acting that way towards
(31:46):
others, they're acting that waytowards those vulnerable parts
of themselves.
And that's really the firststep is.
Most people think I need tolearn how to be vulnerable with
others.
The first step is I need tolearn how to be vulnerable with
myself.
I need to understand the shadow, as we call it, those dark
parts that I'm not proud of, I'mashamed of.
Maybe they give me shame, guilt, fear.
(32:08):
And if I'm not okay with thoseparts, how can anyone else be
okay with those parts?
Whereas most often inrelationships we show empathy.
When someone offers usvulnerability, we offer them
grace and understanding becausewe slow down and take the time
so we understand that they'resharing something difficult.
(32:29):
We have to do that withourselves first, otherwise we're
just projecting all of ourfears onto everyone else, and so
that's the psychological answer.
There's some tactical answers toeye contact.
It's such an intimate act thatit's very difficult if we're
(32:49):
feeling dismissive or avoidant.
All of a a sudden, if we giveourselves permission, let's say
we found the person, we want tofeel safe with this person, but
our body is just saying no, wecan't feel safe.
Start with the eyes, start withthe breath.
When we talk about synchronizedbreathing and eye contact,
these are two of the mostpowerful intimate cues that we
(33:10):
have.
You know, on top of touch, andthey all would sound quite
uncomfortable to somebody who isdismissive, avoidant.
But if you found safety, ifyou've conquered that step, to
say one I can be vulnerable andsafe for myself.
Two I trust this person.
I trust this person.
(33:31):
Then let's enhance the eyecontact.
Let's just sit before intimacyactually not I'm going to smash
our heads into the pillow let'sactually be eye contact.
Let's recognize breathingpatterns rather than just
looking at the curves andmuscles and features.
Let's look at our breathingpattern and see if we're aligned
(33:52):
.
In that these are somatic stepsthat can really help us feel
aligned.
So there's a number of ways,but I think it really starts
with bridging safety foryourself towards someone else.
Remember that the person thatyou're with is also dealing with
insecurity and vulnerabilityand it doesn't always feel great
for that person.
Most of the time, we get thechance to heal each other, and
(34:15):
it's mutual, I think that's.
Another big realization is webecome very protective and
self-focused, but if we want tocontribute to making someone
else feel safe, it usually makesus feel safe too.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
I love how you start out with.
It starts with making yourrelationship with yourself first
and finding safety and healingwithin yourself.
And then you know, obviouslywhile you're healing yourself,
you're probably still beingintimate with other people.
You can deploy during intimacyto sort of bridge that time
(34:57):
until you get to the point whereyou can start working on how
you're connecting with someoneelse and feeling safe in that
connection.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think the practice happensfirst with self.
We have the blessing of sharingthat with someone else, right,
like that's just an opportunity.
What ends up usually happeningis we avoid the intimacy and we
seek sexuality.
We seek the sexual pleasure, wemiss spiritual pleasure.
(35:25):
And you know, this doesn't meanthat everyone needs to be on an
enlightened sexual path.
You can still have fun and getout there and do whatever makes
you feel good, but to do it froma place of safety allows a
deeper sense of excitement andthrill.
If we're stuck in fear, weusually can't even get there,
(35:46):
let alone really enjoy it fully.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Right.
Also, when you're having sexwith somebody else, there is a
somebody else involved.
And if you are having sex froma place of your attachment style
an unhealed attachment stylethat includes withholding from a
person who needs something, itcan cause you know, it can hurt
(36:14):
the other person, their feelings, their sense of security.
So it serves you to be aware ofwhere your intimacy is coming
from and how that affects theother person right, and to let
them know I'm not holding yourhand after sex, man, we're
high-fiving and I'm heading homeand if you don't like that, we
probably shouldn't do it.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
And again, nothing to make any of this wrong or bad
right.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
With consent, it's all fine right.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Like if we're, if this is mutually what we want to
deal with our psyche, you know,if it's helpful, if it's fun,
if we're enjoying it, great,mutually beneficial.
But really, I think what yousaid stands out is that most of
the time when we think aboutsexual conflict, we're not
thinking about the other person,you know, and takes two to say
(37:04):
no, right.
So it's like why are we sostuck in ourselves?
And it's, it's this shame.
Really think that it boils downto Shame, guilt, grief, fear.
These are patterns that, if nothealed, interfere with a
healthy sexual life, and so thedeep dive into the mind and
(37:28):
psyche, I think, reallyunleashes a healthier sexual
life as well.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
For sure, for sure.
I was thinking of a time when Iwas having great sex with
someone and as soon as theyfinished I was on top.
They like almost did you knowthe airplane thing where you
lift someone up and like toss measide?
They were so overwhelmed I waslike, oh okay, like this is
interesting, and I laughed aboutit, of course, because I saw
(38:01):
what was going on and we wereable to talk.
I'm like, hey, I don't know ifyou want to throw me aside when
you're done, like kind of fun,but like that's a specific need,
that's your aftercare, you needme to like.
But yeah, it's interesting.
In this conversation, talkingthrough it, I haven't actually
sat with these attachment stylesand thought about them, from
(38:22):
flirtation to foreplay, to sexto aftercare, how they could
look no-transcript, whichalleviated whatever I was going
(38:59):
to miss.
But then communication tookplace and communication can sure
fix a lot of fractures thathappen from maybe having
different attachment styles andintimacy.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Dismissive avoidance is self-protection.
Learned young, More young.
We don't have communicationskills, and so if that carries
into our adult life, that's whatunlocks.
It is just to be able toexpress what's going on and have
that be received by someone whofeels safe.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
I love that, Can you?
This is the takeaway section wehave.
We've come there, folks, We'vemade it to the takeaway section.
I'd like to kind of do this intwo parts.
First, I would like you tospeak to the dismissive
avoidance out there, Someonelistening right now who's like,
Ooh, I think that's think that'sme.
(39:52):
Could you just give them one ortwo pieces of advice, things
they can start doing right nowin their intimate life to
improve it not only forthemselves but for their
partners.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful, I would say.
One recognize that what wemight perceive as a lack of
feeling or a lack of connectionreally is just learning.
It wasn't safe to show thosefeelings.
And so the first step isfeeling safe with whatever the
emotion is and getting out ofthe judgmental mind.
(40:27):
Because if your partner came toyou and said, hey, I've been a
little insecure about this thingand I wanted to bring it up
because you're the person that Icare about and I want to feel
safe and honest with you, you'dprobably meet that person with
such grace and empathy, withsuch warmth.
And so to realize that, why isit perhaps sometimes safe to
(40:52):
receive that, to have someoneelse show me that that can
reciprocate?
The other thing really it's noteveryone has a partner to
explore this with.
Right, and I think that'ssomething to acknowledge is that
often our intimacy is anexploration of self.
It's with, perhaps, friends,it's with maybe acquaintances or
(41:14):
these casual interactions thataren't long-standing trusted
partnerships.
And so, even with that, I think, if we recognize that we are
not the fear that we feel,that's just a part of us that's
usually a young, wounded part,we can utilize all of those
(41:34):
experiences with self, withfriend with casual hookup, to
learn more and to grow and toheal that inner child wound that
probably now is showing upsubconsciously.
So for people who say you don'thave anyone to practice safety
with, you, have yourself,practice safety with you, have
yourself and that's the firststep is to say with myself, can
(41:57):
bring up these emotions and feelokay with it.
And you never know, maybe thatcasual hookup, the first time
you express something vulnerablyemotional, maybe it invites
them to do the same,transgresses beyond the casual
and becomes something deeper andtransgresses beyond the casual
and becomes something deeper.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
I love that because I do think casual hookups or
hookups with friends also are agreat place to practice, even if
you know this person isn't.
You know, we've agreed thatthis is just going to be
something fun for a night.
It's a good place to practice.
Whatever it is, you need topractice right, and to be able
to do that with friends iswonderful as well.
(42:40):
So now let's talk to the personwho is not dismissive, avoidant
, but in bed with one, and canyou give them a couple pieces of
advice.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Yeah, yeah.
If this is you, if you're theperson getting thrown off the
bed afterwards.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Really happened.
I'm not even exaggeratingAirplane.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Right.
If you crave that connection butit feels like your partner
isn't giving it to you, I thinkstep one is to recognize that's
not a lack of love, that's alack of safety and love, and
that's not your fault, that'spredating your relationship most
likely, and so recognizing thatthe person still is showing
(43:24):
love, even when it doesn't feelthat way to us, because maybe
our love language is physicaltouch and post-coital affection
is just everything to us.
But the other person's just likenope, ready to go um, or that
eye contact, or that affection,that foreplay that really we're
seeking, they're just like theywant to just be in, get done,
(43:45):
you know, get have that, achievethat orgasm and move on again.
That's not a lack of love.
What that requires is to youled my example right, kind of
meet them where they are, in ajoyful, curious way, and to not
enhance shame or guilt or fear,but to embrace the playful side
(44:11):
of things.
Right, we are alreadycompletely naked, private,
intimate, like why takeourselves so seriously in this
moment?
And so if you can meet thatperson with joy, with laughter,
with even the gentle reminder,like I totally understand that
you don't like affection andthat's cool, we'll find our way,
(44:35):
but to not feel defeated bythat.
I think that the hallmark is toknow that love is still there,
even though we're feeling it theway we want.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Do things like take advantage.
If they want to jump up aftersex and they don't want to
cuddle, take advantage of it.
Say, go ahead and get up.
While you're at it, can you runto the store and get me a
coffee, bring it back to bed.
Or get me some dessert.
You can just drop it off by thebedside stand.
You know what I mean.
Find a way to capitalize on thedifferences.
That's what I'd say.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
If we take desire out of the mix and just accept what
is?
He just had beautiful sex andwhat.
Afterwards you want a littlebit more cuddling, but the other
person isn't there yet.
Maybe not forever, just not yet.
What is?
It's so beautiful and, yeah, goget me a coffee.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Yeah, there you go take advantage, enjoy, enjoy the
bed to yourself, you know,stretch in.
Uh.
Thank you so much.
This has been reallyenlightening and I feel like
I've learned a lot from thisconversation and some really
good tools for both the avoidant, dismissive, dismissive
avoidant and whoever elsewhether you're anxious or
(45:48):
fearful avoidant, or you knowthe unicorn, the secure person,
some ways to help your lover ifthey are a dismissive avoidant.
I would love for you to take amoment now to tell my listeners
where they can connect with you,find you and learn more from
you.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm on all socials at Dr SamZand D-R-S-A-M-Z-A-N-D, and I'm
pretty friendly if people wantto ask for advice or something
they're going through.
I just can't give any directmedical advice, I can't make it
pointed, but I can give somegeneral education and feedback
and so I enjoy connecting onReddit and Instagram and such
(46:28):
Otherwise.
If anybody out there is sayingI would love someone on this
journey to keep talking andexploring about these things,
maybe we don't have the intimatepartner who's open to that
communication.
This is where a good therapistor a good holistic psychiatrist
can hold your hand on thatjourney and help you remove the
(46:48):
shame, the judgment, the blameand just find yourself and find
the beauty in restoring safety.
It doesn't have to be justmedications and prescriptions.
We do a lot of holistic worktherapeutically.
We look at ways to rewire thenervous system and heal the
inner child.
So you can find us atanywherecliniccom.
We actually take insurance inmost states and pretty discount
(47:10):
self-pay otherwise.
But yeah, I think everyonedeserves someone to have these
difficult, sometimesconversations with, but
hopefully they transition intoplayful and fun conversations.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
I love that, so make sure to check him out,
especially if you areexperiencing any of the things
we've talked about.
I am going through how eachattachment style shows up in the
bedroom, so either look forprevious episodes on an anxious
(47:44):
attachment and the fearful,avoidant attachment.
But if you have any questionsspecifically on what we just
talked about, you know what todo.
If you are on my audio onlypodcast, you can go over to my
YouTube channel atTalkSexWithAnette, find this
video and you can drop yourquestion in the comment section
below, or you can shoot me anemail at Annette at
(48:06):
TalkSexWithAnettecom.
Or you can scroll down to thenotes section in this episode
and you can click on my speakpipe and you can send me a
voicemail and I will do my bestto get back to you or to get
your question answered.
I want to thank you so much forjoining me today, doctor.
This was really helpful.
(48:28):
It was a great conversation.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Yeah, Thank you for having me.
I think it's fun to get intothe awkward conversations and
show people.
It's just an easy flow once youkind of get past the initial
hiccups and even today you know,notice my somatics right in the
beginning.
It's like talking about sextoday.
That's not my everyday podcast.
I wouldn't have known that flow, that song and that dance right
(48:54):
.
That's intimacy and just beingable to connect about real
things.
So hopefully we're able tomodel that for everybody today.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
I think so, and to my listener until next time I'll
see you in the locker room.
Cheers.
Do the sex pleasure and desire Around here.
Nothing's off limits.
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends and, of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you, and if
(00:40):
you're new, welcome to mypodcast.
Where desire meets disruptionand pleasure becomes power.
Now let's talk about sex Cheers.
Today's Talk Sex with Annette.
Topic is dismissive, avoidantattachment and how it shows up
(01:00):
in the bedroom.
What happens when someone whocraves independence, someone who
prides themselves on beingself-sufficient and emotionally
detached, gets into the bedroom?
What happens when someone whocraves independence, someone who
prides themselves on beingself-sufficient and emotionally
detached, gets into the bedroom?
I'm talking about dismissive,avoidant attachment style.
We all know that the attachmenttheory shapes how we connect in
relationships, but what abouthow we connect in bed during sex
(01:24):
?
Why might someone avoidintimacy right after sex,
struggle with foreplay or seemchecked out even when they're
physically present?
And, most importantly, can thatchange?
To help me break this down, I'mjoined by Dr Sam Zand, a
psychiatrist educator andfounder of Anywhere Clinic, a
national telepsychiatry platform.
(01:46):
Dr Zand is also the chiefmedical officer of Better you,
where he helps expand access topsychedelic-assisted therapies.
He integrates holisticpsychiatry with cutting-edge
neuroplastic therapies to healtrauma at its root.
Basically, if anyone can helpus understand how dismissive
(02:06):
avoidance shows up in thebedroom and how to work with it,
it's him.
But before we dive in, I want toremind you that I'm over on
OnlyFans and there I am sharingmy intimacy how-tos, my audio
guided self-pleasure meditationsand a lot of other information
to help you start having betterintimacy tonight.
You can also find me over onSubstack doing a whole lot of
(02:28):
the same, and you can find me inboth places with my handle at
TalkSexWithAnette.
Of course, you can scroll downto the notes under this episode
and you can click on all thelinks that are going to bring
you to find me wherever you wantto find me.
I look forward to seeing youthere.
And now, dr Sam, will you takea moment to tell my listeners a
(02:49):
little bit more about you?
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm a holistic psychiatrist.
I think it's important to havethat disclaimer.
When you hear just psychiatry,a lot of people just think, oh,
medications and overprescriptionand just diagnosing everybody
is pathologized.
But in fact I think what weneed to do is look at the soul,
really zoom out and understandthat we're treating the psyche,
we're treating the mind, we'retrying to nourish and improve,
(03:14):
restore the soul.
That's the work that I'm up to,whether it's biologically,
psychologically or spiritually,really just trying to help
impact people finding themselvesand being able to be authentic
in who they are.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So, listeners, I want you to stay to the end, of
course, because, first of all, Iknow that a lot of us are
either frustrated with avoidance, dismissive avoidance in
particular, with avoidance,dismissive avoidance in
particular I'm not saying myself, but I might be talking about
myself or we ourselves recognizethat we are dismissive,
(03:53):
avoidant and it's interruptingour ability to have the kind of
connections and sex that we wantto.
And by the end of this podcast,not only are you going to have
a better understanding of what'sgoing on there and exactly how
it's affecting your sex life.
We're, of course, going to giveyou those takeaways so that you
can start making a differencein your own life tonight or this
(04:14):
afternoon, or wherever andwhenever you decide to get into
the bedroom again with yourselfor someone else, so you will
have tangible, immediate thingsthat you can do to deal with
this situation at hand.
So I am ready.
I'm excited about thisconversation because I have been
in bed with more than onedismissive avoidant in my life
(04:37):
and I would like to make surethe next time it happens should
it happen it ends better.
So let's talk about thedismissive avoidant and sex
Cheers.
All right, avoidance.
I love you guys, I do.
I chase you sometimes, or Iused to, but we got to work on
(04:59):
some shit, so let's do it.
For listeners who might be newto the attachment theory, can
you explain what dismissiveavoidant attachment is and what
it looks like in day-to-day life?
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, Attachment style can be very
psychoanalytical.
We can get into things fromchildhood to parenting, to
intimate relationship history.
But if we're really talkingabout what is the avoidant,
dismissive feeling like?
How does it show up?
Is it me?
Is it my previous partner, mycurrent partner?
This is someone who doesn't feellike closeness is what they
(05:38):
want.
Closeness feels like a threat.
And maybe sexual connection,physical intimacy, is desired,
it's practiced, but thatcloseness it feels threatening,
not as a gift.
That vulnerability becomesdifficult.
We might have the person whofinishes orgasm and all of a
(05:59):
sudden walls go up again.
Right, it's like that.
Maybe that time where I allowedmyself to connect, that's a
don't want to cuddle anymore,Don't want any more of that
action after.
And so it's this strugglebetween we.
All want sex, but we have ahard time with the vulnerability
between it.
(06:20):
It's not a lack of desire oflove, it's self-protection, and
so this avoidance habit becomes.
Sometimes it's even with self.
We always say the relationshipwith others begins with our
relationship with self.
Many times, as we understandattachment styles, they're
rooted in shame, they're rootedin guilt, they're rooted in fear
(06:40):
, and so this conversation is anunderstanding of how it shows
up, why it shows up and what wecan do if we really want to
change that.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
How does someone with dismissive, avoidant attachment
view sex itself?
So I define sex as being somuch more than just the actual
in the bedroom having sex.
But sex and intimacy how dothey define it for themselves?
Speaker 1 (07:05):
having sex.
But sex and intimacy how dothey define it for themselves?
Yeah, it can show up in anumber of ways.
Often it's transactional, right.
There's a control mechanism of.
Sex may be approached as thephysical act devoid of the
emotional connection.
It can often show up with akind of preference for wanting
to be independent.
(07:26):
They might be.
Sex is not what others willthink is connecting us, but it
gives me my independence, itgives me what I want.
It's somewhat one way.
There's an emotional detachment.
You know it's.
It's really.
I think that's the core.
It's that discomfort wasvulnerability.
(07:47):
So the view of sex, where somemight see it as a spiritual
connection, some might see it asa shared experience of emotion,
some might just see it aspleasure.
Key here is that we don'tprefer the closeness, we don't
prefer the emotional bond.
We actually have a hard timewith that.
(08:07):
So sex can be still veryarousing, it can still be very
exciting, but it's often metwith a negative emotion
afterwards.
I think that's a hallmark.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Okay, In my mind I'm like are they all bad in bed?
Does that make them better?
You know, I don't know why Iwent there, but I went there
because good sex, where you'regetting into like the juicy
stuff and you're able to likeplay a little bit, take some
level of connection of sex.
(08:41):
Or, when you say transactional,can it be very mechanical to
avoid that connection requiredto experiment and flow with
another human being?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, I think experiments and flow is very,
somewhat different than play,because experiment and flow
suggests that we are present,we're meeting together where we
are and we're going to gothrough this and explore it
together in a fun, exciting way.
But play can be manufactured,play can be manipulative, play
can be strategic, and so maybewe found a way that is playful,
(09:18):
but it's still not connecting ussoul to soul emotionally.
Right, it's still a method ofenhancing arousal, pleasure,
control, something that we want,but that want is not a
connection.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Might a dismissive avoidant have specific fetishes,
kinks or interests sexually?
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that when we go overfetishes and kinks in psychology
, we have to understand that themajority of them come from some
mix of aggression, some mix ofpast experience, whether it was
arousal to aggression, right.
Somewhere there got mixed intothis idea of I'm doing this
(10:07):
thing that's taboo For somereason.
I found it to not be okay, andso in that we might see the
avoidant, dismissive, wanting toexert control power force,
maybe in a BDSM type of way.
Because it preserves that wall,it preserves that protection.
(10:30):
We may desire to be more of avoyeur, because it keeps us safe
, it keeps us distanced from thedifficult emotion that maybe
makes this complicated to theego, whereas otherwise it would
just be bliss.
Right, if we like thesefetishes and kinks and they're
harmonic with the ego, thenthere wouldn't be any kind of
(10:52):
discord, we would just be in astate of bliss.
So it's not to suggest that anyof these fetishes can't be
without bliss.
It's whether it's ego-dystonicor ego-harmonic.
So I think that's an importantpart of this as well.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
So I'm going to ask you to drill down.
What are some other kinks,fetishes or types of sex that
somebody types of sex andintimacy that somebody, with
dismissive avoidance, might wantor look for or seek out or
initiate in the bedroom?
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So we talked about some control themes, right,
because we want to preserve thatsense of control and distance
ourselves a little bit.
I think to the other extreme,there would be also what we kind
of tend to refer to as mutualmasturbation.
(11:52):
It's like we're not reallythere to pleasure each other,
we're there to pleasureourselves through the experience
of each other, and then thekink is just in the mind and we
start to have more cognitive sexthan somatic sex, because we're
actually not sharing anexperience, we're living our own
and we found, maybe, a strategythat works that doesn't expose
(12:16):
what's going on in my mind butwe're able to ar it from
developing more intimately, moreemotionally.
So we don't actually know eachother, it's a one night stand or
(12:46):
it's a, you know, manipulativerole play that we're
encountering together.
So I think it's reallyintensity over intimacy.
It's the let's focus on thephysical act and not the
emotional, and that can show upin any kink, and so that's not
to be judgmental, right.
It's just emotional and thatcan show up in any kink, and so
(13:06):
that's not to be judgmental,right.
It's just teach their ownfilter of how they enjoy it.
So maybe there's a predominancein control kinks, maybe there's
a predominance in kinks thatdistance us like voyeurism, or,
I think, though, the ones thatwe don't see a lot of avoidant
dismissive is where we actuallyexpose ourselves to a little bit
of the vulnerable recipientside of things.
(13:29):
So if it was BDSM, usually theavoidant dismissive would be the
one inflicting the pain, havingthe control, whereas the
avoidant dismissive likelywouldn't want to have the
control taken away because thatsuggests safety, and that's
usually not the MO, or literallytransactional sex or looking
(14:09):
for consecutive one-night standswith different people as
opposed to building an ongoingrelationship.
Yeah, absolutely yes.
I think that if we are tryingto continue to find ways to find
pleasure but we can't findconnection, then masturbation,
pornography this has become soaccessible these days that it's
(14:34):
a survival mechanism.
It's a defense mechanism thatworks.
We actually relax our nervoussystem, we self-soothe, we don't
have to deal with thevulnerability, conflict, the
challenge One night stands.
Similarly, it's even infidelity, where there's perhaps an
assumption that this isn't goingto go any further.
(14:54):
We both understand that we'redoing something bad, something
wrong.
Quote unquote.
And so there isn't a bridgetowards emotion, right?
It's circumstances like thatthat we find ourselves in People
who are just not available, youknow, because we don't want to
be available either, even if inour core and in the wants and
the need, and then the reactionis very different.
(15:15):
Someone might want connection,but they are not comfortable
with it, so they subconsciouslybuild patterns and relationships
to keep that all up.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
So it's not always like in our heart and mind,
aligned with our nervous systemand our reactions.
So it sounds like there's alsosome self-sabotaging behavior
there.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
And any defense mechanismthat's maladaptive, right, that
ends up turning into somethingthat isn't serving us, it's.
It's a coping skill that, yeah,it's.
It's.
We're doing it to preserve,maybe, the thing that made us
feel wounded before, that issensitive, that is vulnerable,
(16:00):
that actually ready to bring toum the situation, even though it
can be so enlightening andcathartic to work through that.
Instead, we're not ready forthat.
You know, this is the struggle.
Freud says half of life isdealing with our sexual desire
(16:21):
and half of life is dealing withour aggressive desire.
These are the things thatmotivate the human psyche.
If we boil it down and to findcontrol over it is what we're
always trying.
We want control and sometimesjust to surrender to it and be
with it and understand it asokay.
That's when we overcome some ofthose walls.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
How might having a dismissive, avoidant attachment
style affect one's approach toforeplay?
Speaker 1 (16:54):
That's an interesting question.
It's an interesting question.
So, if we think of foreplay asthe gradual build of sensual
desire, as this kind of song anddance of delayed gratification.
Delayed gratification oftensuggests a sense of trust, a
(17:16):
sense of we're going to actuallyget there in the end, right
Versus I need that instantgratification, I want it now.
Let's skip the foreplay.
And so I think that to reallyembrace delayed gratification,
most of the time you need tofeel safe, you need to feel
trust, and so perhaps probablynot the most common or the
(17:38):
easiest thing to get intoforeplay Now, I don't think
that's 100%.
Sometimes foreplay can be partof the mechanism that separates
us.
It doesn't have to be one sizefits all.
If we think about foreplay inthe sense of building slow
comfort and enhancing arousaltogether towards delayed
(18:00):
gratification, that might be achallenge.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
So it might be something they avoid engaging in
.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Yeah, and again, unless it's used as a defense
mechanism.
This foreplay is for me toovercome the fact that I don't
want to get vulnerable.
So now I have a tool that I canuse to in pattern, you know be
able to arouse.
You get me aroused and now wemove through again, becoming
more focused on the physical andthe emotional so, hey guys, if
(18:29):
they're skipping foreplay, makethem take the attachment quiz,
oh, but maybe.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
so talking about foreplay and how that could be
something that they would avoid,because foreplay is like a
dance to bring you closer tothen fully engaging in sex, I
want to say, and I want to stepsort of out of the bed or before
the bedroom right when you'relike, which is a form of I I
would argue for a play but theflirting, the seduction, the
(19:01):
seduction phase of wooing alover and trying to get them
into bed, because, as we talkabout dismissive, avoidant
attachment, I'm like are thesethe fuckboys of the world?
Boy, b-o-y and B boy, boy andboi I'm talking about every
gender here is that, is thatwhat we're talking about here?
(19:23):
I'm curious about if you knowthat's so scary for them, I mean
, but they are also probablywanting to get laid like where?
How do they act in theseduction part of this dance to
get someone into bed?
What are some signs we can lookfor?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, I think guarded flirtation when the flirtation
is more teasing, it's morecreating a little bit of that
separation that can be seductiveand attractive, rather than
flirtation that is actually moreconnecting.
You're wanting to get to knowsomebody in a way and
(20:01):
complimenting them in waysbecause you're actually getting
to know who they are thatguarded flirtation can feel
almost like too much exposure.
So we want to be maybe a littlebit more teasing or more, you
know, negative, like thechildhood's playground or
(20:22):
interesting.
And I think there's a preferencefor indirect initiation.
This is most commonly insociety with substances right.
When we're sober we're actuallymeeting each other in a state
of intimacy, usually because wedon't have any other way of
numbing out from being theretogether.
(20:43):
Often most of us, I think insociety, have realized that
sober sex is completelydifferent and this desire to
just kind of use substances tonumb out can be a big sign of
that avoidance as well.
And just kind of use substancesto numb out can be a big sign
of that avoidance as well.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
If there's emotional so they get flirty when they get
drunk, they get drunk, orwhatever.
Then suddenly they turn it onand they get flirty.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Right, whereas before they were guarded right.
That's a clear sign where, ifwe have that disinhibition all
of a sudden now we're feelingmore safe and more trustworthy.
That's normal for all humans.
But you know, is it mechanizedevery time?
Is the absolute?
(21:31):
This is the only way I can getto intimacy is through
disinhibition numbing it out,changing my chemical state
through disinhibition, numbingit out, changing my chemical
state.
So I think avoidance of sobersex is probably high on this
list as well.
But bringing it back toforeplay, bringing it back to
flirtation, there's often adiscomfort with being desired.
(21:53):
So you can think about theperson who's avoidant and maybe
isn't putting themselves outthere.
But what about the person who'savoidant, dismissive't putting
themselves out there?
What about the person who isavoidant, dismissive, but is the
attraction of everyone's desire?
They are actually uncomfortablewith that because it's hard to
trust, it's hard to build thatrelationship, it's hard to want
to create closeness andconnection.
Often it might be morecomfortable with someone who
(22:15):
doesn't desire us as muchovertly those overt signs might
be a little bit too intrusiveInteresting For them.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
If someone directly desires them and pursues them
like someone who's anxious, thatis going to cause them to maybe
be like the wall goes up.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Dribble with emotional connection.
I might even like that person,but if I'm avoidant, dismissive,
I don't want this to continueand so, subconsciously, the
pattern might be that I go backto the person who kind of puts
me down because it feels like,oh, they don't really want me
that much and that's safer forme.
This not only is protection asa wall, but also the psychology
(23:05):
of mimicking what we grew upwith.
Often, when the love of aparent is mixed with abuse mixed
with verbal, emotional, evensexual abuse, it can create this
pattern of comfort.
It's not what we want or desire, but we're just used to it and
it makes sense.
And part of the reason is thatwe have not built comfort with
(23:26):
the unconditional love andsafety of building intimacy and
vulnerability.
We grew up with fear, but thatfear was entangled with love and
so we're used to that and thatfeels more safe.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
That's fascinating.
I was actually thinking back to.
It was about two years ago andso we're used to that and I
guess maybe at the time I hadn'treally thought about the
(24:00):
attachment style of this person.
But I recognize they alwayswent after and I only ever saw
them pursue people who treatedthem poorly and sort of the
meaner these people were to them, the more they could pursue
them.
And one of the last times wesat down together I finally said
to them you know, it seems likeyou prefer to date people who
(24:23):
are shitty to you, and this madethem very angry at me and they
never spoke to me again.
But that's so.
That's an interesting framingof it.
I hadn't ever thought of thefact that somebody with that
dismissive, avoidant attachmentmight be more likely to actually
pursue somebody who treats themlike directly, treats them
(24:47):
poorly, right, whereas I feellike myself who has tended
towards anxious.
I used to pursue people whowould not be mean to me but
start to withhold affection butnot necessarily be mean to me.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Not to dive in fully here, but that withholding that
emotional unavailability ifthat's something that we
experienced when we were young,then this is comfortable.
This makes sense.
There becomes almost aconditional, you know, affection
towards that middle state.
(25:22):
Right now we don't want to beabused, but we also don't want
to be like kind of praised,coddled, complimented, loved,
adored as much, sometimes asscary, and it's not something
we're used to and it might be.
It feel threatening because thelove that we're used to is a
little bit more withheld.
Again, it's not right or wrong,good or bad.
(25:42):
That self-awareness can lead uson any path to bliss and
happiness.
It's just deeper learning ofself to get there.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Right back to what you were saying about how a
dismissive avoidant in theflirtation stage might kind of
like engage in careful teasing,but not like full, like it
sounds like they don'tnecessarily love bomb, like
they're not going to like give alot of like you're gorgeous,
(26:15):
you're amazing, I want to bewith you.
But they might just maybetitrate in a little bit of
flirtation and for someone who'sanxious that could be like
catnip right, oh, I got a littlecompliment, I'm going to like I
want more.
So maybe more of thebreadcrumbing kind of behavior
(26:36):
occurs during the flirtationstage with someone who has
dismissive avoidance.
Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Yeah, yeah, I think all the way to deflection.
You know it's the breadcrumbseither being received or given.
Sometimes, if we're receivingthat, it might feel good.
The anxious attachment styleactually really loves flirtation
.
Right To receive it because itvalidates the insecurity.
(27:03):
But dismissive, avoidant ismore about safety.
It's more about vulnerabilityrather than insecurity and these
things can overlap and sosafety might want to deflect the
flirtatious advance.
On the side of beingflirtatious, it may be very
(27:28):
indirect, it may be guarded.
It may be difficult to fullyengage emotionally and can be
just more like that sexual tease.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Interesting.
All right, well, that's veryinsightful.
I find myself kind of goingthrough my life experiences,
going oh okay, now I get itright.
What are some sexualdysfunctions, if you will, that
could show up in the bedroombecause of this particular
(27:58):
attachment style?
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Yeah, this is big, I think, for both men, women all
sorts of interactions, I thinkparallel, but there are some
unique differences as well.
But the parallel ones is thatwe need we all need a sense of
relaxation to achieve arousalright, and if we're not feeling
(28:25):
safe, it's hard to get aroused.
So this is where someone wouldhave low sex drive or low libido
, because it's hard to even feelsafe enough for that desire to
come up.
Our nervous system has to feelrelaxed.
That's what we call aparasympathetic, that rest and
repair feeling.
Now the flip side, orgasm comesfrom that fight or flight
(28:47):
response in the nervous system,that sympathetic, and so that
could be possible because wecould still have that fight or
flight.
That's actually predominant.
It's fear that charges thenervous system in that way.
But often, when there's fearthat overconsumes us for too
long, we fall into a third modeof the nervous system, which is
(29:08):
that freeze, and that freeze canalso lead to not only low
libido, low sex drive, butanorgasmia, where we fail to
achieve orgasm.
Now, men more often I don't wantto stereotype, but there are
just majority associations basedon hormones and such tend to be
(29:29):
a little bit more cognitive andpleasure is a little bit more
an act of dominance.
Little bit more an act ofdominance right, and whereas
generally, traditionally women,sex is an act of safety and
(29:52):
trust, and so the man might notdeal with the anorgasmia as much
as he would deal with the fetaldysfunction, whereas the woman
may have the anorgasmia moreoften.
Those are just generalities.
I think understanding thenervous system and the way that
we require safety is really thekey here for how the dysfunction
shows up.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
All right.
Well, so now we're to the goodpart.
We've listed, first of all,we've defined what dismissive,
avoidant detachment is.
We've talked about specificallynot only how it shows up in
life but in the flirtatiousstage, the beginnings, the
foreplay stages of sex, duringsex.
Little bit about aftercare,that they may just skip the
(30:33):
aftercare.
The aftercare and comingtogether and really basking in
that post-sex experience couldbe skipped altogether and they
may be jumping up, pulling theirclothes on and saying, hey, got
to go do this or that.
So annoying and the dysfunctionthat can show up there.
Oh, so annoying and thedysfunction that can show up
(30:58):
there.
So this is the good part.
Let's talk about the ways inwhich we can work to fix that,
if you will, or move towardsmore secure, oriented sex where
we get to enjoy that connectedsex or even if it's not fully
connected, we're getting the funforeplay, we're getting the
(31:19):
filling sex and, hopefully, someaftercare.
What are some things that wecan do?
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah, absolutely so.
The first is to buildself-awareness.
If we're not aware we're justpassive passengers in life,
right, we got to get in thedriver's seat and understand who
we are, how we show up, why weshow up that way.
And this is a challenge forsomeone who can be either
dismissive or avoidant, becausenot only acting that way towards
(31:46):
others, they're acting that waytowards those vulnerable parts
of themselves.
And that's really the firststep is.
Most people think I need tolearn how to be vulnerable with
others.
The first step is I need tolearn how to be vulnerable with
myself.
I need to understand the shadow, as we call it, those dark
parts that I'm not proud of, I'mashamed of.
Maybe they give me shame, guilt, fear.
(32:08):
And if I'm not okay with thoseparts, how can anyone else be
okay with those parts?
Whereas most often inrelationships we show empathy.
When someone offers usvulnerability, we offer them
grace and understanding becausewe slow down and take the time
so we understand that they'resharing something difficult.
(32:29):
We have to do that withourselves first, otherwise we're
just projecting all of ourfears onto everyone else, and so
that's the psychological answer.
There's some tactical answers toeye contact.
It's such an intimate act thatit's very difficult if we're
(32:49):
feeling dismissive or avoidant.
All of a a sudden, if we giveourselves permission, let's say
we found the person, we want tofeel safe with this person, but
our body is just saying no, wecan't feel safe.
Start with the eyes, start withthe breath.
When we talk about synchronizedbreathing and eye contact,
these are two of the mostpowerful intimate cues that we
(33:10):
have.
You know, on top of touch, andthey all would sound quite
uncomfortable to somebody who isdismissive, avoidant.
But if you found safety, ifyou've conquered that step, to
say one I can be vulnerable andsafe for myself.
Two I trust this person.
I trust this person.
(33:31):
Then let's enhance the eyecontact.
Let's just sit before intimacyactually not I'm going to smash
our heads into the pillow let'sactually be eye contact.
Let's recognize breathingpatterns rather than just
looking at the curves andmuscles and features.
Let's look at our breathingpattern and see if we're aligned
(33:52):
.
In that these are somatic stepsthat can really help us feel
aligned.
So there's a number of ways,but I think it really starts
with bridging safety foryourself towards someone else.
Remember that the person thatyou're with is also dealing with
insecurity and vulnerabilityand it doesn't always feel great
for that person.
Most of the time, we get thechance to heal each other, and
(34:15):
it's mutual, I think that's.
Another big realization is webecome very protective and
self-focused, but if we want tocontribute to making someone
else feel safe, it usually makesus feel safe too.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
I love how you start out with.
It starts with making yourrelationship with yourself first
and finding safety and healingwithin yourself.
And then you know, obviouslywhile you're healing yourself,
you're probably still beingintimate with other people.
You can deploy during intimacyto sort of bridge that time
(34:57):
until you get to the point whereyou can start working on how
you're connecting with someoneelse and feeling safe in that
connection.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think the practice happensfirst with self.
We have the blessing of sharingthat with someone else, right,
like that's just an opportunity.
What ends up usually happeningis we avoid the intimacy and we
seek sexuality.
We seek the sexual pleasure, wemiss spiritual pleasure.
(35:25):
And you know, this doesn't meanthat everyone needs to be on an
enlightened sexual path.
You can still have fun and getout there and do whatever makes
you feel good, but to do it froma place of safety allows a
deeper sense of excitement andthrill.
If we're stuck in fear, weusually can't even get there,
(35:46):
let alone really enjoy it fully.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Right.
Also, when you're having sexwith somebody else, there is a
somebody else involved.
And if you are having sex froma place of your attachment style
an unhealed attachment stylethat includes withholding from a
person who needs something, itcan cause you know, it can hurt
(36:14):
the other person, their feelings, their sense of security.
So it serves you to be aware ofwhere your intimacy is coming
from and how that affects theother person right, and to let
them know I'm not holding yourhand after sex, man, we're
high-fiving and I'm heading homeand if you don't like that, we
probably shouldn't do it.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
And again, nothing to make any of this wrong or bad
right.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
With consent, it's all fine right.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Like if we're, if this is mutually what we want to
deal with our psyche, you know,if it's helpful, if it's fun,
if we're enjoying it, great,mutually beneficial.
But really, I think what yousaid stands out is that most of
the time when we think aboutsexual conflict, we're not
thinking about the other person,you know, and takes two to say
(37:04):
no, right.
So it's like why are we sostuck in ourselves?
And it's, it's this shame.
Really think that it boils downto Shame, guilt, grief, fear.
These are patterns that, if nothealed, interfere with a
healthy sexual life, and so thedeep dive into the mind and
(37:28):
psyche, I think, reallyunleashes a healthier sexual
life as well.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
For sure, for sure.
I was thinking of a time when Iwas having great sex with
someone and as soon as theyfinished I was on top.
They like almost did you knowthe airplane thing where you
lift someone up and like toss measide?
They were so overwhelmed I waslike, oh okay, like this is
interesting, and I laughed aboutit, of course, because I saw
(38:01):
what was going on and we wereable to talk.
I'm like, hey, I don't know ifyou want to throw me aside when
you're done, like kind of fun,but like that's a specific need,
that's your aftercare, you needme to like.
But yeah, it's interesting.
In this conversation, talkingthrough it, I haven't actually
sat with these attachment stylesand thought about them, from
(38:22):
flirtation to foreplay, to sexto aftercare, how they could
look no-transcript, whichalleviated whatever I was going
(38:59):
to miss.
But then communication tookplace and communication can sure
fix a lot of fractures thathappen from maybe having
different attachment styles andintimacy.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Dismissive avoidance is self-protection.
Learned young, More young.
We don't have communicationskills, and so if that carries
into our adult life, that's whatunlocks.
It is just to be able toexpress what's going on and have
that be received by someone whofeels safe.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
I love that, Can you?
This is the takeaway section wehave.
We've come there, folks, We'vemade it to the takeaway section.
I'd like to kind of do this intwo parts.
First, I would like you tospeak to the dismissive
avoidance out there, Someonelistening right now who's like,
Ooh, I think that's think that'sme.
(39:52):
Could you just give them one ortwo pieces of advice, things
they can start doing right nowin their intimate life to
improve it not only forthemselves but for their
partners.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful, I would say.
One recognize that what wemight perceive as a lack of
feeling or a lack of connectionreally is just learning.
It wasn't safe to show thosefeelings.
And so the first step isfeeling safe with whatever the
emotion is and getting out ofthe judgmental mind.
(40:27):
Because if your partner came toyou and said, hey, I've been a
little insecure about this thingand I wanted to bring it up
because you're the person that Icare about and I want to feel
safe and honest with you, you'dprobably meet that person with
such grace and empathy, withsuch warmth.
And so to realize that, why isit perhaps sometimes safe to
(40:52):
receive that, to have someoneelse show me that that can
reciprocate?
The other thing really it's noteveryone has a partner to
explore this with.
Right, and I think that'ssomething to acknowledge is that
often our intimacy is anexploration of self.
It's with, perhaps, friends,it's with maybe acquaintances or
(41:14):
these casual interactions thataren't long-standing trusted
partnerships.
And so, even with that, I think, if we recognize that we are
not the fear that we feel,that's just a part of us that's
usually a young, wounded part,we can utilize all of those
(41:34):
experiences with self, withfriend with casual hookup, to
learn more and to grow and toheal that inner child wound that
probably now is showing upsubconsciously.
So for people who say you don'thave anyone to practice safety
with, you, have yourself,practice safety with you, have
yourself and that's the firststep is to say with myself, can
(41:57):
bring up these emotions and feelokay with it.
And you never know, maybe thatcasual hookup, the first time
you express something vulnerablyemotional, maybe it invites
them to do the same,transgresses beyond the casual
and becomes something deeper andtransgresses beyond the casual
and becomes something deeper.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
I love that because I do think casual hookups or
hookups with friends also are agreat place to practice, even if
you know this person isn't.
You know, we've agreed thatthis is just going to be
something fun for a night.
It's a good place to practice.
Whatever it is, you need topractice right, and to be able
to do that with friends iswonderful as well.
(42:40):
So now let's talk to the personwho is not dismissive, avoidant
, but in bed with one, and canyou give them a couple pieces of
advice.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Yeah, yeah.
If this is you, if you're theperson getting thrown off the
bed afterwards.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Really happened.
I'm not even exaggeratingAirplane.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Right.
If you crave that connection butit feels like your partner
isn't giving it to you, I thinkstep one is to recognize that's
not a lack of love, that's alack of safety and love, and
that's not your fault, that'spredating your relationship most
likely, and so recognizing thatthe person still is showing
(43:24):
love, even when it doesn't feelthat way to us, because maybe
our love language is physicaltouch and post-coital affection
is just everything to us.
But the other person's just likenope, ready to go um, or that
eye contact, or that affection,that foreplay that really we're
seeking, they're just like theywant to just be in, get done,
(43:45):
you know, get have that, achievethat orgasm and move on again.
That's not a lack of love.
What that requires is to youled my example right, kind of
meet them where they are, in ajoyful, curious way, and to not
enhance shame or guilt or fear,but to embrace the playful side
(44:11):
of things.
Right, we are alreadycompletely naked, private,
intimate, like why takeourselves so seriously in this
moment?
And so if you can meet thatperson with joy, with laughter,
with even the gentle reminder,like I totally understand that
you don't like affection andthat's cool, we'll find our way,
(44:35):
but to not feel defeated bythat.
I think that the hallmark is toknow that love is still there,
even though we're feeling it theway we want.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Do things like take advantage.
If they want to jump up aftersex and they don't want to
cuddle, take advantage of it.
Say, go ahead and get up.
While you're at it, can you runto the store and get me a
coffee, bring it back to bed.
Or get me some dessert.
You can just drop it off by thebedside stand.
You know what I mean.
Find a way to capitalize on thedifferences.
That's what I'd say.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
If we take desire out of the mix and just accept what
is?
He just had beautiful sex andwhat.
Afterwards you want a littlebit more cuddling, but the other
person isn't there yet.
Maybe not forever, just not yet.
What is?
It's so beautiful and, yeah, goget me a coffee.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Yeah, there you go take advantage, enjoy, enjoy the
bed to yourself, you know,stretch in.
Uh.
Thank you so much.
This has been reallyenlightening and I feel like
I've learned a lot from thisconversation and some really
good tools for both the avoidant, dismissive, dismissive
avoidant and whoever elsewhether you're anxious or
(45:48):
fearful avoidant, or you knowthe unicorn, the secure person,
some ways to help your lover ifthey are a dismissive avoidant.
I would love for you to take amoment now to tell my listeners
where they can connect with you,find you and learn more from
you.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm on all socials at Dr SamZand D-R-S-A-M-Z-A-N-D, and I'm
pretty friendly if people wantto ask for advice or something
they're going through.
I just can't give any directmedical advice, I can't make it
pointed, but I can give somegeneral education and feedback
and so I enjoy connecting onReddit and Instagram and such
(46:28):
Otherwise.
If anybody out there is sayingI would love someone on this
journey to keep talking andexploring about these things,
maybe we don't have the intimatepartner who's open to that
communication.
This is where a good therapistor a good holistic psychiatrist
can hold your hand on thatjourney and help you remove the
(46:48):
shame, the judgment, the blameand just find yourself and find
the beauty in restoring safety.
It doesn't have to be justmedications and prescriptions.
We do a lot of holistic worktherapeutically.
We look at ways to rewire thenervous system and heal the
inner child.
So you can find us atanywherecliniccom.
We actually take insurance inmost states and pretty discount
(47:10):
self-pay otherwise.
But yeah, I think everyonedeserves someone to have these
difficult, sometimesconversations with, but
hopefully they transition intoplayful and fun conversations.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
I love that, so make sure to check him out,
especially if you areexperiencing any of the things
we've talked about.
I am going through how eachattachment style shows up in the
bedroom, so either look forprevious episodes on an anxious
(47:44):
attachment and the fearful,avoidant attachment.
But if you have any questionsspecifically on what we just
talked about, you know what todo.
If you are on my audio onlypodcast, you can go over to my
YouTube channel atTalkSexWithAnette, find this
video and you can drop yourquestion in the comment section
below, or you can shoot me anemail at Annette at
(48:06):
TalkSexWithAnettecom.
Or you can scroll down to thenotes section in this episode
and you can click on my speakpipe and you can send me a
voicemail and I will do my bestto get back to you or to get
your question answered.
I want to thank you so much forjoining me today, doctor.
This was really helpful.
(48:28):
It was a great conversation.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Yeah, Thank you for having me.
I think it's fun to get intothe awkward conversations and
show people.
It's just an easy flow once youkind of get past the initial
hiccups and even today you know,notice my somatics right in the
beginning.
It's like talking about sextoday.
That's not my everyday podcast.
I wouldn't have known that flow, that song and that dance right
(48:54):
.
That's intimacy and just beingable to connect about real
things.
So hopefully we're able tomodel that for everybody today.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
I think so, and to my listener until next time I'll
see you in the locker room.
Cheers.
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