Inside Grindr: Sex, Secrets & Who’s Really There

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
I'm Annette Benedetti, host of the podcast
formerly known as Locker RoomTalk and Shots.
The show has a new name, TalkSex with Annette.
But at its core, this is stillyour locker room.
It's where we strip away shame,get curious, and speak the
unspoken about sex, kink,dating, pleasure, and desire.
Around here, nothing's offlimits.

(00:24):
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends, and of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest, and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you.
And if you're new, welcome to mypodcast where desire meets
disruption and pleasure becomespower.

(00:46):
Now, let's talk about sex.
Cheers.
Ranglo.
Today's Talk Sex with a Nettopic is Grinder.
Sex, secrets, and the men youdon't expect to find on the
grid.
What if the most infamous hookupapp on the planet isn't just
about sex, but about everythingwe hide?

(01:09):
Grinder is known as a queerhookup app.
But open it on any given nightand you'll find more than just
out gay men.
You'll find discreet profiles,married men, guys who say
they're straight or justcurious.
Sometimes even politicians andconservative Christian men are
trying to keep their desiresunder wrap.

(01:31):
This app has become a culturallightning rod because it's not
just a place to meet up, it'swhere identity, shame, and
desire collide.
And today we're pulling thatcurtain all the way back.
My guest is Zachary Zayn, authorof Boy Slot, a Memoir and
Manifesto.
Men's health sex columnist,cosmopolitan's non-monogamy

(01:54):
columnist, and the official sexand relationship expert for
Grindr.
He's also one of the mostvisible bisexual voices in the
country with bylines in the NewYork Times, Rolling Stone,
Playboy, GQ, and more.
Impressive.
We're talking about what Grinderreally reveals about desire,
power, secrecy, and howbisexuality fits into a space

(02:19):
built for gay men, but used by awhole lot more people than you
think.
Now, before we dive in, and Iknow you're excited to dive in
because I am, I want to remindy'all that I'm over on OnlyFans,
and there I'm sharing my sex andintimacy how-tos, demos, and
audio guided self-pleasuremeditations, along with an
opportunity for a littleone-on-one coaching.

(02:40):
If you are not ready tosubscribe to an entire regimen,
if you will, of sex and intimacycoaching.
You can go over there and ask mesingular questions.
You can also find me over onSubstack doing the same, except
for, of course, the demos andthe coaching.
And you can find me in bothplaces under my handle at
TalkSex with a net.
If you want to scroll down tothe notes section below this,

(03:02):
and you're going to find linksto find me everywhere you want
to find me, and I look forwardto seeing you there.
But for now, Zach, can you tellmy listeners a little bit more
about you?

SPEAKER_02 (03:11):
Sure, yeah.
I feel like that was a good sumup.
So I write a lot aboutbisexuality, queer sex,
polyamory kink.
My book, Boy Slut, is a bookabout how to overcome sexual
shame.
And it's a memoir and it's ourcollection of essays, whatever
you want to call it.
It's kind of how I went from aplace of such immense shame to
being this proud, open,bisexual, sex positive, kinky

(03:34):
motherfucker that I am today.
But yeah, right now, the mainthing I'm focusing on outside of
writing for places and workingwith Grindr is my Substack,
which I also have.
It used to be a non-fictionerotica Substack.
So real sex stories that happento me, and then I have a slew of
other writers, you know, a dozenplus other writers.
And now I've expanded it to likefictional, traditional erotica

(03:56):
as well.
But the idea behind this is it'snot just smut for smut's sake,
although nothing is wrong withthat.
But like in every story, youkind of learn about yourself
through it, or it speaks to theintersection of sex and
technology or sex and moderndating.
There's always like anoverarching narrative and kind
of like a bigger thing that youkind of learn about yourself

(04:18):
through it.
Well, also it being the horny,well-written literary smut.
So that's kind of been my mainfocus for these past years or
so, which has been a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 (04:28):
So, folks, of course, I'm gonna tell you where
to find him on Substack by theend of this podcast.
And we all love smut.
I mean, I know my listeners, Iknow you guys do.
I know that you're showing upevery week because it's a little
smutty over here.
So we will make sure that youget to the link to that by the
end of this.
But more than that, you shouldstay to the end.

(04:50):
Well, first of all, because whodoesn't want to know more about
grindr and the grind secret,which I will be asking about?
But also, if you are someonewho's been curious about getting
on grinder, or you're someonewho's navigating your own
identity, by the end of thispodcast, you're gonna have, of
course, some takeaways, a littleguidance, if you will, to what

(05:11):
to do next.
You're also gonna know what toexpect if you're thinking about
jumping on the app.
I have no fucking idea.
I'm going into this blind.
I I actually know nothing aboutthis topic, which, you know, is
unique for me when I'minterviewing someone.
So this is exciting for me.
I'm also really thrilled as aopenly bisexual panqueer woman

(05:34):
to have a counterpart here, ifyou will.

SPEAKER_01 (05:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (05:37):
Miserate on what it's like to be bisexual in
queer spaces, especially queerspaces designed by, well, in my
case, typically lesbians, or gaymen.
And how does that all pan out?
So I'm I'm just excited.
I'm ready to talk about grinder.

SPEAKER_02 (05:55):
Let's do it.
Yeah, let's start.

SPEAKER_00 (05:59):
Let's talk about grinder.
Cheers.

SPEAKER_02 (06:03):
Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
My cup.
Says today I want to be top orbottom.
And mine lies because it says Iwant to be a bottom, but I'm
very toppy today, so justwarning you.
We're gonna start at the basiclevel here.
Explain grinder to me.
I also only know it by thereputation, which is it's where

(06:27):
gay queer men go to hook up anddo all kinds of fun, dirty sex.
But what is grind really?

SPEAKER_02 (06:35):
Yeah, I mean, I think grind has evolved over the
years.
It started in, I'm trying toremember correctly, around 2009.
So it's been about 15 years.
And I think initially it was thefirst like geolocation app.
So it was the first one to letyou know how far people were
away from you and feet.
And it was more of a hookup app.

(06:56):
And that was the purpose kind ofbehind it.
And now it absolutely can be ahookup app, but what they talk
about is kind of having theythey always talk about having
the gaberhood in your pocket, iswhat it is.
So it's not just for sex, it canbe used for that.
It can, and they even now havethis right now feature where you
click on it and then youactually see like a map layout
of where everyone is on the map.

(07:17):
So if you're trying to cruise orhook up with someone, it
actually lets you know wherethey are, especially if you're
looking for like, you know,casual sex right now.
But it's where queer men meettheir husbands.
You know, it's where it's also aserious dating app.
It's also, you know, they justhad the grinder pleasure ball,
which is their annual kind ofHalloween event.

(07:38):
And the purpose of this is hey,we want to connect people in
real life.
We want to have you have thisGaberhood in your pocket.
We want to expand the Gaborhoodto the real world and not just
be digital, but combine havingcommunity digitally and then in
person.
So, yeah, it has since expanded.
It's this cultural phenomenon,right?

(07:58):
So, yes, it absolutely can beused for sex.
I use it for sex all the time.
It's phenomenal, but it reallyis so much more than that, and a
way for people to connect,especially queer men.
You know, I think like I'm verylucky.
I grew up in Los Angeles, I livein New York now.
I live in these like gaymetropolitans where it's really
okay to be out as gay and queer.

(08:18):
Of course, there's still safetyrisks.
I'm not saying there isn't, butlike, you know, compared that to
from middle of nowhere, Alabama,it can be really hard to connect
with other queer men.
And obviously a lot of peoplemight not be out, they might be
discreet, and this gives you anopportunity to do so.
But even in cities like NewYork, if so much of the social
scene is like gay bars.

(08:41):
And if you're someone, let's sayyou're sober, you just don't
like partying, you don't want togo to a place at 1 a.m., you're
more of a gamer, you're more ofan introvert.
It allows you anotheropportunity to meet gay men
because it's still, even in bigcities, can be hard, especially
if you're not someone who wantsto go out to the gay bars,
because that's where we tend tocongregate.
So it's a way to explore youridentity, it's a way to meet

(09:03):
other people, it's a way to havecasual sex, it's a way to have
love.
It's kind of whatever you makeof it.
And that's one of the specialthings about Grindr.

SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
All right.
So I'm just going to jump intowhat everybody wants to know
because it's why Grindr isoftentimes in the headlines of
the news.
What is it true?
Is it true the stories about itcrashing when Republican
conventions come into town?

SPEAKER_02 (09:31):
I believe the RNC one is true.
I I've heard, I'm not 100% sure.
There was one recently that Ithink they dispelled.
Oh, I think they were saying itlike was that the Kings rally?
There was one recently whereGrinder noted, like, hey, no, we
we did not crash here.
But at the RNC, I know that is aeither it actually has crashed,

(09:53):
I'm not exactly sure.
Regardless, I I know men who godown on Grindr looking like
during the RNC, you know,knowing, especially if they're
sex workers, that they might beable to get to get work through
politicians there.
But regardless, I it the it ispacked.
Whether or not it crashes ornot, it is absolutely packed at

(10:15):
the RNC.

SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
So it is true.
And look, I'm just gonna say, asa liberal, very liberal out
woman, I'm like catnip forconservative men.
So I can only assume that thistranslates over to conservative
men who are maybe strugglingwith their own identity or

(10:40):
trying to hide it or whatever itis.
So my question is do you findthat who is on the app includes
a decent number of people whoare not just out gay men, but
obviously also bisexual men, andthen men who are struggling with

(11:03):
their identity or hiding it forone reason or the other?
May that be politicians orChristian conservatives.
What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 (11:14):
Yeah, an ant such as Grinder that's been around for
so long, that's such thiscultural institution, it's gonna
have everybody.
So you definitely have theout-gay men, the out-by men, the
out-trans men, the out-transwomen, non-binary people, people
who are very comfortable withtheir sexuality.
Then you have the people who arenot out for whatever reason, it

(11:34):
would be unsafe to do so, theirfamily would kick them out,
maybe they are married.
And then, of course, you you youdo have some closeted
politicians, but I think I'mjust reticent and almost talking
about this just because I don'twant to give this idea that this
is this duplicitous app ofeveryone lying.
Yes, that does exist.
Of course, it does, and peoplecheating, but I'd say the vast

(11:55):
majority are still just queermen looking to connect, and some
of them might be out, some ofthem might not.
And it offers a safe space foryou if you are not out and you
want to explore.
And I'm hopefully those peoplewho are not out are, you know,
voting for LGBT rights.
They're not activelydiscriminating against us here.
Like, I don't want to demonizebeing closeted either or being
discreet either, but at the sametime, if you're discreet and

(12:17):
closeted and then attacking theLGBTQ community, of course, I do
take a problem with that.
It runs the gamut.
Yeah, it it everyone is onthere.

SPEAKER_00 (12:27):
It sounds to me like it's any other dating app.
Or if you've got your as far asmarried men, like that is not
unique to a queer dating site.
Tender is notorious for havingmarried men or men who are
hiding something or people andand I'm sure women as well,

(12:49):
although I feel like there's notas much of a spotlight on that.
So to address sort of all therumors around it, I think to me
it sounds like it's like anyother app as far as the numbers
who are showing up secretly forwhatever reason they have.

SPEAKER_02 (13:07):
Yeah.
No, people cheat.
People are dishonest.
You know what I mean?
And that's part of it.
And for many, that is a kink.
You know, I'm not going topretend that removing the ethics
from it, you know, whether youfind it ethical or not ethical.
But it's like, of course,there's a contingent of gay men
who find it really hot to sleepwith married men.
And so it's, you know, findingthe pairs.
And then of course there are gaymen who are like, that I feel

(13:29):
terrible about this.
This is wrong.
I don't want to sleep withsomeone who's cheating.
But I think many people do havea cheating kink, and you're able
to explore that.
And yeah, I'm not going todescribe whether this is moral,
ethical, or not.
I feel like that's up to eachperson to decide themselves.

SPEAKER_00 (13:43):
What an interesting topic.
I hadn't even thought aboutcheating as a kink, but it most
definitely is.
Yeah.
From your position, it itstarted as more of a hookup app.
And it has that reputation.
But it sounds to me like nowit's also just an app where if
you're also looking for along-term partner, you can find
someone who wants that as well.

SPEAKER_02 (14:07):
And I think a lot of the time, and this is true for
some people of the straightcommunity of the straight
community.
That's so funny to say that.
But I think gay men inparticular, we often will have
sex first, and then the emotionsmight come later.
And so and I think it's in partbecause the emotions can come

(14:28):
because they are tied into sex.
You have this passionate,incredible sexual experience.
You start feeling emotions forsomeone, or just like, yeah,
you're able to have thatintimacy, and then over time you
get to know each other.
So I think a lot, while theredefinitely are the ones on
Grinder who are like, hey, let'sgo out to a bar first and date
that way.
I know I've had long-termpartners that I've met on
Grindr.
And what usually happens is wehave sex, not that long,

(14:51):
whatever.
They're in and out of myapartment within 30 minutes.
It was good.
I hit them up maybe two weekslater.
This happens again.
And then around the third orfourth time, they might not
necessarily leave the momentafter having sex.
We might just stick around andtalk for a little bit.
And I've said maybe after thethird or fourth time having sex,
hey, you seem cool, no pressure.
Do you want to go on a date?
If you want to keep things justlike this, I'm happy to do that

(15:13):
too.
And I think every time I've saidthat, they've always said yes,
in part because I read the vibe.
I wouldn't have necessarilyasked that if I didn't think
they were also into me too.
But so I think often we kind ofmeet through initially having
sex and then develop theemotions in a more committed
relationship later, as opposedto going on three dates, having
that, and then having sex.

(15:34):
And I think grinder reallyfacilitates that within like the
larger queer community.

SPEAKER_00 (15:40):
It's fascinating to me.
I feel like when I'm datingqueer women, we we have to do
the opposite because it's likeyou have sex and then it's like
you haul.
It's like, okay, we had sex, nowwe're together.
And as a bisexual woman, myexperience because I have dated
more than one gender, when I goon a date with a lesbian and

(16:01):
they like want it to go straightto relationship.
I'm like, whoa.
I mean, I'm used to dating menwho like, you know, it's a
totally opposite experience.
But then I date women and it'slike, oh my God, I better not be
too sweet, or I'm gonna be like,you know.

SPEAKER_02 (16:16):
You'll be you hauling it before you know it.
You'll you'll have four catstogether.
It's like, I don't want tonecessarily like do a broader
stereotype, but I I thinkthere's some truth in this.
Like, absolutely.
And I always say that like gaymen can learn from lesbians and
lesbians can learn from gay men.
And that what lesbians can learnfrom gay men is like how to have
casual sex.

(16:37):
Obviously, there are plenty oflesbians who do have casual sex,
but to have a meaningful sexualexperience and then be like,
hey, I appreciate that for whatit was.
A meaningful sexual experiencedoesn't mean I love this person,
doesn't mean I want to marrythem.
I think gay men are too good atcasual sex.
And I think we need to be like,oh, we had this casual sex, and
yes, we have barriers and wallsup.
What if I tried to go on a datewith this person?

(16:58):
What if we've been sleepingtogether for four years?
Maybe I called them myboyfriend, you know, whatever it
is.
And again, there are plenty of,you know, queer men.
I don't want to make it seemlike all gay men have intimacy
issues or all lesbians aretrying to U-Haul, but I but I
think I think those tropes existfor a reason.
And I think, yeah, I think thereare things that the gay

(17:19):
community can learn from thelesbian community, and vice
versa.

SPEAKER_00 (17:22):
Here's what I'd also say as much as you know, you
don't want to makegeneralizations.
I think almost all of us wouldsay some of these
generalizations are there for areason.
Like I think everyoneunanimously agrees.
I am dating a lesbian right now,and trust me, the the lesbian
bipan jokes are never ending,and we're constantly discussing
how they also are there for areason, right?

(17:45):
And how different sometimes myexperience is from her
experience.
So that brings me to beingcurious about you as a bisexual
man on an app that was, I'mgoing to assume, created
primarily primarily for at thetime, gay or by gay men, or it

(18:06):
was seen as a an app for gaymen.
How has that experience been foryou, or has it has your
sexuality not been an issue?

SPEAKER_02 (18:16):
It's I wouldn't say it was primarily a gap for gay
men.
I'd say it was always an app formen who like men.
You know, they call it MLM.
And so it was always an app forwhether or not you were gay or
not.
Like I think they knew, again, Iwasn't around there 15 years
ago, but I'm pretty sure theyknew their audience pretty on,
or they saw the number ofbisexual men, they saw the
mumble of discreet men.

(18:38):
And I think like it welcomed allof these people, not just out
men.
And it's been doing that since2009.
So I would argue that reallyhasn't necessarily changed, that
they've always kind of been forqueer men and also for trans
women too.
Like, like you might find oncein a while, like a cisgender
straight woman on the app.

(18:59):
And usually it's in the contextof like a by couple looking for,
it's like, hey, this is mypartner looking for a third.
Once in a while, you just have asolo, and I respect it.
Like, I had a friend who did itonce.
It's like it's really not forstraight cis woman, I would say.
But she goes on, she's like, I'mlooking for all the bye dudes.
I want to get dicked down.
And she cleaned the fuck upbecause, you know, I think a lot

(19:23):
of times, especially by men, wetend to or often can have just
more cat sex with men than womenbecause it is easier.
Because you can hop on grinderand just do it.
You know, you can go to a gymlocker room and cruise and get
your dick sucked.
You know, it's it's it's so muchmore easily accessible to have
sex with men than women.
It's not necessarily a desire tohave more sex with men, it's

(19:47):
just like that these are theopportunities that arise.
So when an opportunity arises tohave sex with a woman and it's
kind of made as simple orstraightforward as on Grindr, my
friends have cleaned the fuckup.
And I'm like, I just you know,that sex relationship by
Grinder, I'm like, I I guess Ilike it's not it's clearly not
an issue.
It's not like it's swarming withcis women and there are cis

(20:08):
straight women who are you knowruining the app and the culture
of it.
If it was, I might discouragethem.
But I'm like, you are truly onein a billion.
Have fun for this.
But in that regard, no, it'salways been for any man or trans
woman who is looking to have sexwith men.

SPEAKER_00 (20:25):
So straight women or bi women who are into by men, we
shouldn't publicize go therebecause you're yeah, oh god, I
bet too.
Gay men and bi men, you guystake care of yourself.
Oh, okay.
Straight men, like, look, I'mno, no, no, no.

(20:45):
This is my area of specialty.
Straight men, especiallymiddle-aged, 30s, mid-30s and
up, they do not take care ofthemselves.
And we're always looking at youknow, the gorgeous, like, queer
men going, uh, why can'tstraight men do this?
Why can't they last pride?
I ended up in on a dance floorpacked with queer men, shirts

(21:10):
off, chests glistening, smellthat place smelled so damn good.
And I was like, this is sounfair to women that are having
sex with straight men.
To not look, I don't want toruin grinder for you guys, but I
mean, apparently.

SPEAKER_02 (21:26):
I again I can't support that necessarily, but
you can do what you want to do,and you'll probably clean up.
But I know I'm not trying tohave a swarm of straight women,
but it really is wild.
I'll be at events.
I'll yeah, as I mentioned, Ilive in New York.
I'll just go out to like a bar,a gay bar, and I'll look around
or like a circuit party ifyou're familiar.
It's kind of like these gaydance parties, and like every

(21:49):
guy is beautiful.
And I'm I'm like, it literallyis.
I'm like, it's like, and Iremember first stepping into it,
and I'm a good looking dude too.
I am muscular, I'm pretty likeI'm not trying to say like like
it's like I I know that, butstill it is to this day.
And I've been going to gay barssince I was 18, since we

(22:10):
actually before I was 18, beforeI even came out and all that
stuff, it it is stilloverwhelming at times where just
like the amount of fuckingbeauty, and it takes work.
This is not we're not Beyonce,we don't wake up like this.
Like, this is a skincareroutine, this is going to the
gym, this is the stuff thatevery woman since the dawn of
mankind has done, and now justgame and I know, man.

(22:32):
But it's like, yeah, thesethings don't happen by accident
overnight, like they're puttingin the effort.
And we have the cleanestassholes.
I know so many straight men whoare in their 30s, 40s, and like
a friend of mine, you know,friends that are pro-job and
they hook up with them, they'repegging them, they go, like,
they never clean their asshole,they have no idea how to clean
their asshole.
And it's like, ooh, that that'sthat's a kink in of itself, not

(22:54):
kink shaming, not necessarily mykink, but it's like gay men,
shockingly the cleanest assholesin the history of assholes.

SPEAKER_00 (23:01):
I want to rewind.
You made a comment for a by menthat it's easier to hook up with
men, which is funny, as a bywoman, I would also say the
same.
Like it's so much easier for meto meet a man than it is for me
to meet a woman.

(23:21):
And so it's very interesting tome that you and I have like a
you know, uh a similar take onthat.

SPEAKER_02 (23:28):
Yeah, it's and you're not the first person I've
heard this from.
You know, I think a lot of bywomen, it's just because I mean,
the men are just socialized tobe more aggressive, I think
generally.
In terms of flirting, to be theones that are going out and
flirting and doing that.
So if you're not used tonecessarily being the the, I
don't want to say aggressor,that sounds that's not the right

(23:49):
word.
Bold.

SPEAKER_01 (23:51):
Yeah, bold person.

SPEAKER_02 (23:53):
Obviously, like women's sexuality is so much
more shamed than male sexuality.
So because of that, you mightnot feel comfortable hooking up
on a first date because you'reafraid of slut shaming.
And gay men, obviously, they'reslut shaming within the
community, but it's verydifferent.
It's a very different thing.
But I just think there aremultiple reasons why, regardless
of your gender, you know, mygender or yours, it's just

(24:13):
easier to hook up with men pointblank.

SPEAKER_00 (24:16):
So as a bi-man on grinder, do you post that you're
bisexual?
In your profile when you set upis that something you're you're
open about?

SPEAKER_02 (24:27):
Yeah, so there are tags on grind too, where you can
list among like, well, first youcan list like, you know, your
sexual position.
Are you top, verse top, versebottom?
You can list like tags in termsof like kinks that turn you on,
whether it is pits is one, Ithink water sports is one.
Like armpits, yeah.
Okay.
Water sports, threesomes,anonymous, you know, there are a

(24:50):
bunch of tags.
And then there's also like asexuality tab.
Two, so you're able to list thatyou're bisexual.
And I do that for a couplereasons.
Number one, I want to know likefor like trans women, I'm also
attracted to them.
You know, I don't want them tothink I'm a gay man.
I want the guys who are in arelationship with a woman and

(25:11):
want to threesome to hit me upto know like it's that.
And then there are men who findbisexuality really hot, who kind
of fetishize us in a way,because maybe for a slightly
problematic reason of they findit like hot that I hook up with
men and that somehow or sorry,and I hook up with women and
that somehow somehow makes memore masculine.
It does not.
But if they have a bisexualkink, I kind of like I I like

(25:33):
that.
I like being fetishized forthat.
So I like playing in with it.
And then it's also if on the offchance we do end up dating, I
don't have to come out to themlater.
You know, like so I don't knowif when we first have sex, if
I'm gonna see you again afterthis.
But if the sex is good, as Imentioned, we might, we might
end up dating.
And if they already know fromthe get-go, okay, that means

(25:54):
they're comfortable dating abi-man, which not all gay men
are, truthfully.
So it kind of yeah, it lets themknow beforehand.
So I don't have to have like abigger coming out later.

SPEAKER_00 (26:05):
Yeah, uh, that I relate to that.
How often do you experiencebiphobia on the app?

SPEAKER_02 (26:14):
Not often, actually.
I've had a lot more biphobia onnot quote unquote gay or queer
apps or on Tinder or Bumble orwhatever it is, in part because
it usually comes from like ciswomen who don't feel
comfortable.
But also, there are just so manyby men on the app who list that
they are bi.
Like I should have asked Grinderwhat the breakdown is, because

(26:36):
they they do have that data.
But if I had to guess, it's likeat least a quarter, if not a
third.
You know, so it's not like maybeif it was 1% of us, we might get
more shit.
But like this app, in part, yes,it was created for gay men and
queer men, but it was in partcreated for by men.
So if there's like a better, Ican't think of a better app
where you're not gonna receivebullshit for being by receive

(26:58):
other bullshit.
I'm not gonna say you won't, youknow, especially with anonymity
can come people being their mostbrutal and not kindest or best
selves.

SPEAKER_00 (27:08):
So this app allows for anonymity.

SPEAKER_02 (27:10):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (27:12):
Okay, so you don't put necessarily your real name
or you can do either.

SPEAKER_02 (27:17):
So you have a regular profile picture, and
that could just be that could beyour face.
That could just be your torso ifyou just want to show off your
body without your face, or itcould just be a blank profile.
And so they're the people whoseek anonymous sex and don't
want to share their face forwhatever reason, and they talk
to other people like this, andthen they're the men that need

(27:39):
to see a face, and often intheir profile they put M P N C,
which means no pick, no chat.
So that way, letting you know,hey, I'm not looking for
anonymous hookup, I want to seeyour faces, I want to see who
I'm gonna be kissing.
So you can kind of go always,yeah.
I feel like if there's onetakeaway from Grindr among the
many I've said, it's always likea choose your own adventure.
I really do believe that you canfind whatever it is that you're

(28:02):
looking for, whether that'sanonymous sex, a serious
relationship, friends, whateverit is.
And that's what kind of makes itspecial.

SPEAKER_00 (28:09):
Who would you recommend Grindr for?

SPEAKER_02 (28:14):
I mean it essentially any man or trans
woman or trans person who'slooking to connect with other
men, and they can use men orconnect, excuse me, however you
want to use that word.
If that means I want to exploresexually with men, because I
never have, that's a way toconnect.
If it's I'm looking for a gamercommunity of other dudes who

(28:36):
love playing Halo or whateverthe newest thing is on Xbox, you
can find that too.
But it's like people who aresearching for sex, for love,
relationships, or just for gaycommunity.

SPEAKER_00 (28:48):
How can someone optimize their profile to
achieve their whatever theirintention is best?
Because it sounds like there areso many different choose your
own adventure.
Like maybe you want a hookup,maybe you want to have your
first experience with a man.
Maybe you want to, you're like,I want to find somebody to be my

(29:12):
partner.
What are ways in which someonecan make sure their intention is
clear and find the best results?

SPEAKER_02 (29:21):
I I think that's the beauty of a bio.
And I think like be extremelyblunt and clear about what it is
that you are seeking.
If you're looking forspecifically a certain type of
sex, a kinky type of sex, youhave a really niche fetish, make
that clear.
Because A, that way people whoare not into that won't message

(29:42):
you, and the people that areinto that will message you.
If you're looking for to go outon a coffee date before hooking
up, say that.
I mean, because it is, I don'twant to say a free for all, but
because there's so many peopleon the app for so many different
reasons, you do have to somehowfilter it.
And the way To do that is bybeing very clear and very blunt,
and one thing I love aboutGrindr is how insanely direct

(30:06):
people are with their sexualrequests, or what they're
looking for in a world where wehave so much sexual shame about
openly speaking about sex.
Boy, the men on the amp theywill say, first message, I want
you to do one of the more wildersexual things, and that's
expected, that's normal.
So you're allowed to be prettydirect in a way that you
probably wouldn't necessarily belike at a at a club, you know,

(30:30):
if you were just meetingsomeone.

SPEAKER_00 (30:33):
It's interesting to me because I think about how
often that is true on datingapps where I'm dating trying to
date men.
I'm not on those apps anymore,folks.
But when I was, how I would soquickly men would share what

(30:53):
they wanted to do.
And women don't tend to reactwell to that from men.
So it's interesting to me thatit must feel good to have a
place where you can be directand have it received in such a
way that it's not seennecessarily as a negative, but

(31:14):
as like, I know what you'reyou're giving me your intention
up front, your want, your need,and then to have a response
where it's understood andappreciated.

SPEAKER_02 (31:25):
Yeah, grinders grinder.
If it was a different app, Iwouldn't like recommend this.
On Instagram, if you slide intosomeone's DM saying, I want to
piss on you, we'd be like, Whatthe fuck are you doing, dude?
That's like wildly in a but onapp, I mean, maybe that wouldn't
be again my first message.
Hey, hey, how are you doing?
You in a piss play.
Yeah, I'd love to piss on you.
So maybe it's your fifthmessage, Dan.

(31:46):
It's not the first thing yousay.
You still have to have somefinesse.
I'm not saying you can just goballs the walls here, but that
is the point of this app.
When the app was specificallydesigned for sex, originally,
like you are allowed to be bluntsexually, versus yeah, uh
Instagram.
That's not why it wasn't an appmade for sex, so it's an
inappropriate app to be thatblunt.

SPEAKER_00 (32:09):
I I I love that piece though, that this was an
app that was born to facilitatesex and all kinds of sex, right?
Yeah, sex that's often shamed.
Look, sex is shamed foreveryone, especially queer folks
and and women, and that it'sevolved into a place also where

(32:31):
you can find real companionshipand love.
And isn't that how the evolutionshould be?
Because isn't sex ultimately uha wonderful way to create love,
right?
Yeah, it doesn't always have tobe, but it can go hand in hand
with that.
So it seems logical to me thatas an app like that would
develop, that people would startfinding love because for me at

(32:56):
least, sexual compatibility ishigh on my relationship list.
Like when I was younger and I Iwas taught about sex, it was
like that shouldn't be thepoint, you know, that should be
lower on your list of things tolook for in a long-term
relationship.
First, you look for X, Y, and Z.
And for me, I have flipped thatscript because I feel like

(33:18):
through sex is how I discoverhow kind a partner is, how well
they listen, how much they'reopen, you know, all of the other
things that are important.
And if I can't like if we can'thit it off in bed, and if we're
not fucking the same or able tofuck the same, or we don't have
that chemistry, for me, that'slike we aren't gonna like move

(33:38):
forward.
That to me gives me a lot ofinformation about everything
else.

SPEAKER_02 (33:44):
Yeah, I think so too.
I I think like sex being a proxyfor other things in a
relationship.
You know, are you a giving sex?
Are you greedy?
Like, do you go down on women?
If you don't, like fuck you,dude.
You're you're not a generousperson.
If you're not a generous lover,I can't imagine you being a
generous person in real life.
You know, like do you care aboutyour partner?
Do you communicate?

(34:04):
I do haven't thought about sexin that way, but I do think it's
a proxy for many other thingsthat would make you either
attracted to or not attracted toan individual.

SPEAKER_00 (34:15):
Absolutely.
So let's talk safety.
Sure.
Getting on an app like Grinder.
And yeah.
I think again, sex between twomen is gonna be different.
There's gonna be a differentrisk level than there is between
two women or between a man and awoman.
Like there's just a wholedifferent kind of uh thought

(34:38):
process things to look out for,to plan for in order to stay
safe.
So can we talk about that?
What do you recommend?
What are your thoughts?
What are things people shouldhave an eye out for?
How should they optimize theirsafety?

SPEAKER_02 (34:52):
Yeah, I mean, it's there are always like safety
precautions that you can take,whether it's just like, hey, and
some people I know have donethis, it's not super frequent,
but some men do.
They'll be like, hey, can I justdo a quick video chat with you?
30 seconds, just to know, numberone, that you look like your
profile.
And or they might ask for likejust your Instagram or something

(35:16):
or Snapchat.
They often like to do Snapchatbecause that's a way, hey, I can
just show you a sexy photo ofme, and you also know that I'm
real, you know how I look inreal time.
So I think that is a way todefinitely, if you're new to
this, and the idea of meeting upwith someone you don't know well
is very scary to help maximizekind of your safety.

(35:38):
I I think honestly, that'sprobably the biggest one I can
think of.
I think so many people are onthe app because they like the
anonymity and that rush of thefact that they don't know this
person.
But I think there's nothingwrong with getting to know
someone a little bit more andhaving a good text exchange, you
know, beforehand.
It doesn't have to be you sendthree messages and then you're

(35:59):
face down ass up.
You're welcome to keep messagingthis person to get to know them,
to have a little bit of safetyor to feel more safe before
meeting them.
But honestly, I'd say the videochat is kind of the best,
easiest.
Hey, do you mind if we do a30-second chat just so I can do
this?
And it might turn off some guys,but I think most would be like,
yeah, sure, dude.
Like 30 seconds is fine just sowe get a sense of each other.

SPEAKER_00 (36:21):
Do you ask for STD tests or results?
Is that something that's part ofthe culture?

SPEAKER_02 (36:26):
So yes and no.
So Grinder does have a sectionof when you were last tested.
So at least you know when you'relast tested, also lets you know
your status.
That's a section two.
So you know, are you on prep,pre-exposure, prophylaxis,
truvata, which prevents you fromgetting HIV by like 99.99%?
Or do you have HIV, but you'reundetectable?

(36:47):
Undetectable meansuntransmittable.
Even if you have unprotectedsex, if you're an HIV-positive
person who has an undetectableviral load, you cannot transmit
the virus.
So it's that we'll also knowlike what shots you've received.
So, like, are are you takingdoxycycline as a form of PEP
post-exposure prophylaxis, whichis now very common in the gay

(37:09):
community, helps preventsyphilis gonorrhea chlamydia.
Have you gotten your meningitisshots?
It will say, like, have yougotten your meningitis shots?
Have you gotten your COVIDshots?
Meningitis protects againstgetting gonorrhea by 50%.
So it's something that everyoneI know this.

SPEAKER_00 (37:23):
Like, what the hell?
So is this only is this likethis is not something I don't
think queer women know.
I'm like, what are all theseprotective No?

SPEAKER_02 (37:30):
And it's straight people should know about this
too.
Like, like, it's and so, like,you know, if you've had the
meningitis shots, you're on DoxyPep, you're on prep, I see you
were tested two months ago, likewe're not going to be asking.
If I see, you know, sometimesyou just forget to update it.
Hey, I'll say you haven't gottentested in a year and it's not
listing your precautions.

(37:50):
I'll just be like, hey, when'sthe last time you were tested?
But I think, especially in theprep era, where like I think our
biggest concern was getting HIV,and now that's really no longer
a fear if you have access toTruvada and Discovy and these
other forms of prevention.
Like the other ones, like thereis a larger, a greater

(38:12):
acceptance of chlamydia andgonorrhea and syphilis for men
than there is for straightpeople.
You know, I think for us, like,especially when you have a
penis, it's really not a bigdeal.
Vaginas are just much morefinicky.
And when you get gonorrhea orchlamydia or syphilis, it tends
to be a bigger deal.
It's like for us, we're usuallyasymptomatic.
Worst comes to worst, you get adribble, you go in, you get a

(38:34):
shot of ceftriaxone, you don'thave sex for a week, and then
you're up and running again.
So, like, it's just not as largeof an issue for us.
And I believe in sexualautonomy, I believe that you
should be allowed to have thelevel of sexual risk that you
want to take.
But of course, you need to becommunicative about that.
You need to know what risks youare taking.
So if this person's lying toyou, you can't have informed

(38:55):
consent, right?
That you need to be able to dothis.
But it's condoms are notprevalent on Grinder.
Actually, I'd argue that they'repretty rare, especially in
metropolitans and in placeswhere prep is so easily
accessible.
It's different, I think, inother cities where prep isn't.
And because of that, you tend towear condoms more.
But yeah, so with certainpeople, I have discussed with

(39:18):
certain people, I just kind oflook at their metrics.
That's usually what I do.
Last time tested, theprecautions that they take.
Okay, I feel safe, you know,engaging in this sexual risk.

SPEAKER_00 (39:29):
Okay.
All right.
That's interesting.
So if you are going to bring it,would be like if you want condom
usage, then you absolutely haveto bring it up because it's
going to be assumed otherwise.

SPEAKER_02 (39:42):
It's I I see the assumption in New York is it's
otherwise, and they ask for yourform of protection.
And so people, you can listcondoms only.
You could be my form ofprotection is I'm on prep.
I'm on these things.
So I think the condoms only makeit very clear hey, I can search
by other people who are condomsonly too.
Again, it's finding in the otherpeople who are doing it too.

(40:04):
Because again, I don't want tomake it seem like no one uses a
condom, but but I will say it isfewer and farther between.

SPEAKER_00 (40:13):
Okay.
All right.
Also, something that stands outto me that's interesting.
When I go out on dates with men,I'm also putting safety measures
in place for my physical safety.
So, for instance, as a womandating a man, I'm gonna have my
girlfriend who knows where I'mat, who's got the guy's number,

(40:33):
like all of his information, youknow, make sure I stay
physically safe.
When I go out with a woman, Idon't ever do that.
So with a man dating a man, andmaybe not even dating, but
getting together to hook up witha man, are there measures like
that you you feel you need toput in place?
Or because obviously thephysical power is less
imbalanced?

SPEAKER_02 (40:55):
I mean, it depends.
I'm 6'4 and 220 pounds.
So I I don't maybe it's hubris,but I am not super concerned
about my physical safety meetingup one-on-one.
But if you are a five-foot twinkwho weighs 110 pounds sopping
wet, and you're going and maybemeeting up with three muscle
daddies who are 220 pounds,okay, there is a physical safety

(41:16):
thing there.
And I think there's alwayssomething to be said if you feel
uncomfortable messaging thatfriend, or now we have all find
my friends.
But you know, I still get textsfrom it's usually more female
friends, but some guy friendstoo, being like going on this
date, seeing this person, if youdon't hear from me, call the
police.
Like they make that joke.
And if you are really concerned,I think a pro tip is when you

(41:38):
enter a house, one of the firstthings you can always say is,
hold on one second, I'm textingmy friends where I am.
And and you say that so theyknow that.
So if they were gonna trysomething, that would heavily
deter them.
But again, like, you know, Idon't want to pretend that
nothing bad ever has happened onthe amp, but it's like I've
hooked up with hundreds, if notthousands, of guys from Grind.

(42:02):
And the vast majority of them,yeah, I've had some bad sex,
I've had some awkwardencounters, but they are safe
encounters, you know what Imean?
But of course, you know, there'salways risk.
The way there is risk meetinganyone from any app, any gender,
you know what I mean, orsexuality.
I think there always is acertain level.

SPEAKER_00 (42:20):
All right, so one last question, and then we are
going to give my listeners sortof their their go bag of tips
for how to either get on grindor get started if tonight, if
you want to tonight, or to startlike digging into if they're
having thoughts that theythey've identified as maybe

(42:43):
heterosexual, but theirimagination is perked and like
what do we do next?
But what I need a picture of isthis you get on the app, you
make a connection, and you'rejust doing hookups.
You just want to explore sexwith men.
Where are you meeting?
Where are some of the placesyou're meeting?

(43:05):
Where what are the next steps?
How can that look?

SPEAKER_02 (43:10):
I I think most of the time, and they always talk
about there's a culture of thistoo of like they talk about
hosting versus not hosting.
Who can host and who cannot?
So most of the hookups, not allof them, you know, happen in
your bedroom or in theirbedroom.
Of course, if you live with fourroommates, that might be a
little bit harder and you list,hey, I can't host.
I'm only looking for people whocan host.

(43:30):
But I'd say, you know, peopledefinitely cruise and you can
meet someone out, whatever it isat a bar, you check on your
phone, you check at the gym, andthen you're able to connect that
way, using it as like amisconnection almost.
And then, yeah, depending onwhere you are, you can maybe
hook up in public.
Again, I shouldn't be condoningthis, but you know, whatever it
is that you are doing, if you'regoing to the bathroom at the

(43:52):
sauna, that's your business.
Again, not condoning lewd orlascivious behavior, I would
never.
But I think, yeah, most of thetime it does take place at at
either of your guys' homes.

SPEAKER_00 (44:03):
What is cruising?
You've said it several times,and I have no clue.
I'm curious, what is cruising?

SPEAKER_02 (44:09):
So, kind of in gay hookup culture, oh, I should
really have a good definition ofthis.
But cruising is essentially likethe art of looking for anonymous
sex in public.
So, and there's a kind of adictated behavior that goes
along with it.
So, if you especially people,gay men often have cruised in

(44:30):
parks, you know, and you meet upwith another guy, you make eye
contact, he looks back, hestarts walking to this path that
is or off the beaten path, awayfrom someone, and then you end
up sucking each other's dicks inthe woods.
Like, but it is this eyecontact, it is a look back, it
is something you have to be kindof on the lookout for.

(44:51):
Because if you don't realizewhat these subtle glances are,
people are giving them to youall the time.
And the same thing for cruising,a very popular commonplace to
cruise is in like locker rooms.
So in saunas and in steam rooms.
And you would be surprised.
I'm not talking about gay gyms,I'm talking about every single
gym ever, if it has a sauna, hasmen blowing each other in it.

(45:13):
And that is what, like, itdoesn't matter, it doesn't have
to be gay, but you know, that iswhat the song YMCA by the
village people is about.
I don't know if you know that'syoung man, there's always a
place that you can go, and it'sabout cruising specifically at
the YMCA and hooking up with it,or hooking up in there in the
locker rooms.
And I think that's so funny whenthey play this at bar mitzvahs

(45:33):
and kids' parties, or when Trumpis using it, it's like, I just
don't know what the song isactually about.
And if you did, I doubt youwould be you'd be in the world.

SPEAKER_00 (45:43):
Or maybe he does know.
Maybe he does know.

SPEAKER_02 (45:45):
Maybe he does know, but that's kind of what cruising
culture is, and grinder canreally help facilitate as a part
of cruising culture.
It's a little bit more digitaland less analog now, but it
could be kind of both.

SPEAKER_00 (45:57):
All right.
Well, there you go, guys.
I feel like I've learned a lot.

SPEAKER_01 (46:03):
Good.

SPEAKER_00 (46:03):
Through this conversation.
What I've learned mostly is howlittle I actually know about gay
male culture.
I'm very well versed in the filmqueer space.
Sure.
But I as you were like throwingout terms and talking about it,
I was like, holy shit, how do Iknow none of this?

SPEAKER_02 (46:23):
Kind of hot.
Well, well, and now I'm gonna doa shameless plug for my book,
Boy Slut, a memoir andmanifesto.
I actually have a a uh glossaryin the beginning of the book
because I think there were soand I like so many different
terms that people are notfamiliar with.
And I realize I don't havecruising in here, but I have a

(46:44):
bunch of other ones, and peoplehave really liked that section
of the book because they feltlike uh I learned just so much
from these three pages.
But yeah, because the there is adifferent terminology, there is
a different culture, definitelybetween you know, queer male,
queer men's versus queer womenand just generally straight.

SPEAKER_00 (47:02):
You know what's really funny?
I think it's somewhat of a dirtysecret in the queer film
culture, is oftentimes when evenl lesbian women watch porn, the
secret secret sort of likepleasure is watching gay, gay
guy porn.

SPEAKER_02 (47:21):
Like it's it is common.
So like I I think like I don'tremember the studies, but the
studies show like a largepercentage of straight and bi
women like watch gay male porn,and it might actually be more
than men that watch it, justbecause let's say whatever, 10%
of the population of the malepopulation is watching gay porn,

(47:42):
it might be like 15 or 20 forwhat just I think it was just
more women are doing it, but itwas something where it's like a
lot of women watch gay maleporn.

SPEAKER_00 (47:50):
I don't know what it is, but I'm gonna be honest with
you.
Sometimes if I'm by myselfhaving sex with myself and I've
decided to use porn to help getme there, and I just can't find
the little video that's gonnalike get me over the edge and
just pop on two or three guyshaving a good time, and I'm
like, that's a party.
I love us why that's not mything, but it's apparently the

(48:14):
fantasy is hot, yeah.
It is.
I think it's and I think it'sjust like seeing something that
a I don't really have access tothat much, right?
And I think it's just likeseeing people enjoying each
other, and especially somethingthat I don't, you know, because
I don't have a penis of God.
If I could have one for a week,I don't get to see.

(48:35):
It's like it can be reallyexciting and beautiful and
interesting.
So for my listeners, let's let'sgive them what to do next.
What are your suggestions forexploring if they want to dip
their toe in the water and thegrinder waters if you well?

SPEAKER_02 (48:56):
Yeah, I I think again, it comes back to listing
what you're looking for andwhere you are in your journey,
in your profile, in your bio.
So you could be like, hey, I'mnew to men, just want to get
sucked, or just want to sucksomeone else.
So that way you're very clearyou're not looking for anal
penetration to start, let's say.
You just want to get sucked, andthis is a new thing for you.

(49:17):
But I think being honest aboutwhere you are in your journey,
being clear about what it isthat you would like to do, you
don't have to get on there andimmediately get gangmaned by 500
dudes.
You can take your little babysteps and finding other people
who want to take those stepswith you.

SPEAKER_00 (49:33):
For men who identify as straight, but are curious or
noticing that they're havingthoughts or excited at the idea
of what they read about gettingon grinder and about like these
secretive opportunities.
What do you have to say to them?

SPEAKER_02 (49:52):
It's I I think a label should always be
descriptive and notprescriptive.
And that I mean, if you're like,oh, I identify straight and
therefore, despite having acuriosity, cannot hook up with
men.
It's like, no, no, no.
Like, like, if you have thisdesire, you should explore the
desire.
Let the label then describe youafterwards.

(50:15):
So, and for many reasons, I'mlike, maybe just don't have a
label right now while youexplore because you might not
know.
Things are growing, evolving,and changing.
But yeah, the label should feelnot less limiting, it should
feel more empowering.
So if you're feeling limited bya label, like the then remove
the label.
And instead, I'd really just tryto focus on your fantasies, your

(50:38):
desires, excuse me, and yourbehaviors for now, and then let
the label come afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 (50:44):
I always tell, and I'm curious about your take on
this, because I do have men thatreach out to me and say things
like, I'm straight, but I noticeoccasionally, like if I have a
threesome with my wife, I kindof get excited or want to touch
a dick, or or I have thisexperience and I'm like, does
that make me gay?
And my response is always, youget to decide what your identity

(51:07):
is.
Yeah.
If you are a straight man who onoccasion likes to suck a dick or
have his dick sucked by anotherman, I feel like you can still
say, like you get to choose ifyou identify as straight, right?

SPEAKER_02 (51:22):
And I think the label, there's kind of two or at
least two components to why wepick a label.
So one is, you know, I want tolike the sense of self that
comes from having a label, asense of identity that comes
from I am gay, I am bi.
And maybe you want to get moreinvolved in the gay community,
identifying as gay.

(51:43):
But then I think there's alsowhat am I trying to convey to
myself about myself to theworld?
So if you are a dude who once ina while gets his dick sucked in
a sauna, let's say, but isotherwise straight, by
identifying as bi like you'renot trying to date other men,
and not that you have to beromantically involved with

(52:05):
someone to be bi, you know,there, but like if you're not
trying to really hook up withother dudes or watch RuPaul's
drag race or be part of the gaycommunity, it it is almost
somewhat misleading to identifyas bi because people are gonna
assume, okay, this is what youwant to do.
So if it is something that youreally rarely do, like it it's

(52:25):
kind of you might notnecessarily like want to
identify as such because it kindof is not actually conveying
what your sexual behaviors are.

SPEAKER_00 (52:35):
Now, tell my listeners where they can find
everything about you.
And I do want you to hold upthat book again and share it
because I think this is a greatopportunity to read about
someone else's experience.
I'm just saying He's a verymasculine-looking man.
Now, I'm not saying you feelthat way on the inside, but six

(52:56):
foot four, you can look allsorts of different ways.
You can present all sorts ofdifferent ways, and it's okay to
go on an exploration and hearsomebody who has explored his
sexuality, found his way, and istalking about it.
And I think it helps to readsomeone else's journey, right?

SPEAKER_02 (53:14):
It's and it's also the book over like, yes, it's
very bisexual, it's very kingpositive, it's poly, all of that
stuff.
But like, what makes it for agood memoir is when you make
your personal experiencerelatable to everyone.
I remember my mom read MichelleObama's Becoming, and she was
like, oh my God, I likeresonated so much with her.
And I was like, You were thefirst lady of the United States.

(53:36):
You know, it's like experiencinglife as a black woman and going
to these Ivy school.
You know, it's like she they hadnothing in common, but Michelle
Obama wrote such an amazing bookthat it resonated with my mom.
And I feel like this, like, itwould be a misnomer to say this
is just a buy book.
This is just a book for men.
This book really is for anyonewho struggles with sexual shame
and how to go about removingthat sexual shame and how I was

(53:59):
able to do so and how you can aswell.
So yeah, you definitely will geta different experience.
You will get an earful of stuffthat you might I might know
nothing about, but I think atthe end of the day, you'll be
like, okay, this actually doesrelate and resonate to me as
well.
So I hope I hope I hope you havethat experience at least.

SPEAKER_00 (54:17):
So where because I think you and I also agree, a
shame-free life, a life that'swithout sexual shame, is a much
more fulfilled, healthy feelinglife, right?

SPEAKER_02 (54:30):
It it doesn't just, and I think we're seeing this
now, we know, like sex does notjust stop once you leave the
bedroom.
Like when you are not sexuallyfulfilled, when you have sexual
shame, that permeates out intoevery single aspect of your
life, into every relationshipyou have, into your work
productivity, into all aspectsof your mental health.

(54:52):
So this stuff like isn't just,oh, I want to have more
pleasurable sex.
And that that could also be thegoal as well, but like your
whole life is going to changewhen you stop having these
feelings of shame that are soinsidious and pervasive and so
limiting and depressing andanxiety provoking.
Like, oh, I I look back and Ifeel like I'm a completely

(55:12):
different man from where I was,and you'll see my journey to how
I got to where I am in this.
So that's a cool part of it,too.

SPEAKER_00 (55:19):
Yeah, I really relate to that as well.
So can you tell my listeners andviewers where they can find you,
your book, and anything elsethey want to know about you?

SPEAKER_02 (55:29):
Yeah, so my Instagram is Zachary Zayn
underscore underscores at theend.
I have like all my links there.
I have the sub stack also calledboy slut.
Boy slut is one word.
I should make a note of thatbecause I learned that Amazon
would have like dinged me insearches because slut's a bad
word.
So by having it as one word, Ilike I come up in search
engines.
That was like a big ordeal.

(55:49):
You can buy my book anywherebooks are sold.
And then I have the sub stackalso called boy slut, which is
either great branding or veryconfusing.
Just Google Boy Slut, and I feellike everything will come up.
But yeah, between the sub stackand the book, check out Grinder,
check out my Instagram.
I think we're pretty, pretty sethere.

SPEAKER_00 (56:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for joining metoday and for enlightening me
and hopefully many, many of mylisteners on the culture of
Grinder, what it's really about,and also giving us a little more
information on the queer maleexperience, whether you are gay,
bi, or queer, whatever youexperience your sexuality as.

(56:28):
I really appreciate youropenness with all of it.

SPEAKER_02 (56:30):
No, thank you for having me.
This was a really funconversation and kind of got to
get into the nitty gritty of it,which I really appreciate.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (56:38):
Really felt how naive I am.
So, to my listeners, until nexttime, I'll see you in the locker
room.
Cheers.
Cheers ring loop.

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