Why You’re Mismatched in Bed: The 4 Erotic Personas (and How to Sync)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Do the sex?

Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm Annette Benedetti , host of the podcast formerly
known as Locker Room Talkin'Shots.
The show has a new name, talkSex with Annette, but at its
core, this is still your lockerroom.
It's where we strip away shame,get curious and speak the
unspoken about sex, kink, dating, pleasure and desire Around
here, nothing's off limits.

(00:23):
Pleasure and desire Around here, nothing's off limits.
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends and, of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you.
And if you're new, welcome tomy podcast, where desire meets
disruption and pleasure becomespower.

(00:46):
Now let's talk about sex Cheers.
Today's Talk Sex with Annette.
Topic is which erotic personaare you?
The four sexual archetypes thatexplain a whole lot.
Routine sex often gets blamedfor low desire.

(01:06):
But what if the problem isn'thow often you're having sex?
It's that you and your partnerare speaking completely
different erotic languages.
That's what today's guest ishere to unpack.
Nicholas Vallada, head ofrelationship research at ARIA
and a PhD researcher at theUniversity of Washington, helped

(01:27):
develop the erotic personaframework for archetypes that
explain what truly turns you onand why your partner's idea of
hot sex might completely missthe mark.
For you.
We're diving into the romantic,the director, the adventure and
the connector how to know whichone you are, what shuts you

(01:47):
down and how to bridgemismatches so you stop fighting
about sex and start having moreof it.
Before we dive in, I want toremind you that I'm over on
OnlyFans and there I'm sharingmy sex and intimacy how-tos and
my audio guided self-pleasuremeditations, and I am now
offering one-off coaching,intimacy coaching advice meaning

(02:10):
those one simple questions thatyou want answered quickly but
you don't want to commit to afull coaching regimen you can
have taken care of over there.
You can also find me on Substackdoing a whole lot of the same,
minus the coaching, and you canfind me in both places at my
handle at TalkSexWithAnette.
You can also find me onSubstack doing a whole lot of
the same, minus the coaching,and you can find me in both
places at my handle atTalkSexWithTheNight.
You can also scroll down to thenotes below this episode and

(02:32):
find links everywhere you wantto find me there and I'm looking
forward to seeing you Now.
Nicholas, will you take amoment to tell my listeners a
little bit more about you?

Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah, thanks for the lovely introduction.
So I come from an academicbackground where, at the
University of Washington inSeattle, I started really
looking at sexuality andbecoming a sexologist.
And when I went down that routeI really found my most interest

(03:03):
in the relationship between sexand the people that we're
having the sex with, like theidea that sex isn't happening in
a vacuum, that there arerelationships, no matter how
committed or non-committed,attached to those sexual
encounters.
And that's really when Istarted becoming more of a

(03:23):
relationship scientist andlooking at intimacy writ large,
with sex as a major component ofit.
And after I was in my gradprogram for a while, I got
approached by our co-founders atARIA and they had this really
interesting idea about creatinga marketplace for couples
wellness, about creating amarketplace for couples wellness

(03:48):
, and there was somethinginherently exciting for me
around the idea that I would bepairing my research abilities
and my career trajectory withthe profit incentive of
bettering the most amount ofrelationships with the most
effective technology out there,and I couldn't resist that that
prospect.
So here I am four years later,moved myself from Seattle to New

(04:11):
York, and we're thriving as acompany and we're actually just
had our first IRB approved,research approved, and so that
should be coming out here prettysoon too.
Looking at sort of theempirical data that we have at
ARIA, looking at the effects ofa digital intervention on sex
and relationship satisfactionbecause of struggles that

(04:47):
they're experiencing withintheir relationships around
desire and sexual connection andenhancing their relationship.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
So this episode is going to be super helpful to
most all of you.
I want you guys to stay to theend because this is going to
give you another framework forlooking at your sexuality and
then how it has been interactingwith and connecting with your
partner or your partners or yourpast partners.

(05:12):
If you're single right now andhoping the next time around it's
going to go better, like me.
So stay to the end, folks.
I'm always going to give youthose takeaways.
I am ready to just dive intothis topic.
So let's talk about sex and theerotic personas.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
Oh wait.
So I did a Diet Coke, so we getthe ASMR moment here.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
Let me hear it because I haven't had one for 24
hours.
So for all of my friends outthere who give me shit about
Diet Coke, I just want you toknow I found a bestie in my, my,
my Diet Coke obsession.
However, I'm on coffee.
It's morning here, so cheers,let's talk to the DC girls.

(05:58):
All right.
So first of all, I just wantyou to explain this.
This is a new, newer frameworkthat I'm hearing about at least,
so can you explain to mylisteners what it is.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, I think that we have popularized things like
attachment styles and, to anextent, love languages although
I can get on the soapbox aboutmy complaints around love
languages although I can get ona soapbox about my complaints
around love languages but thosethings gave us languages to
speak with our partners in verypractical ways as well, as sort

(06:32):
of these insightful moments ofwhat is going on in the
interiority of our relationships, not only between my partner
and I and our behavior, but alsowhat might my internal
landscape look like and feellike right now and what do I
need to make that internallandscape compatible with my

(06:53):
partner.
So, taking that as a veryrevolutionary development in
relationship science for a lotof people in couples, therapy
and reading self-help book, etcetera.
I at ARIA was faced with as thehead of research, trying to
understand eroticism and how togive people the same result that

(07:21):
these other personality andpsychological assessments gave
them, but now over somethingthat is so under-researched and
there is very little that Icould just create an entire
framework around that alreadyexisted.
So I went to a board of expertseveryone from sexologists to

(07:47):
clinical therapists toembodiment and certified tantric
workers, the gambit.
And after having these focusgroup sessions where we would
discuss what the most usefulframes to perhaps build a
framework out of for eroticismwas.

(08:08):
We took off to the races andstarted actually measuring
people on different scales and,through collaboration with these
experts, we at ARIA developedthe erotic personas.
Erotic personas, and these areclusters of traits that tend to

(08:31):
form together but are notexclusively correlated with each
other, meaning it's a spectrum.
So you're going to score acrossall four types of the personas
and those personas are going totell you a lot about where you
source eroticism as well asmaybe, where eroticism struggles
to grow around certainbehaviors or mindsets or kinks,

(08:56):
etc.
So really, the erotic personasis a personality assessment,
quote unquote for your eroticstyle, what you need, what you
don't really want and where youcould maybe grow and bridge
desires with a partner.

Speaker 2 (09:14):
I love that.
I love that.
First of all, framing it as apersonality assessment I think
makes it make sense to mostpeople, because most of us have
been put through whether for acareer or just trying to figure
ourselves out personalityassessments.

(09:35):
But what I really like aboutwhat you just said and what I
want my listeners to hear is itnot only tells you kind of where
you're at and maybe quote onlytells you kind of where you're
at and maybe quote yourstrengths are in eroticism, but
I think it also gives you hopeif you are struggling with a
partner, because it's tellingyou opportunities of growth and
change.
And one of the things that Ifind frustrating with a lot of

(09:59):
the approaches to sexuality isit's like and relationship
styles and stuff like that.
It's like you're this, you'rethis and you're this and this is
why you don't get along withother people, and it leaves
people feeling hopeless.
Well, you know like, okay, I'mthis thing, now I guess I just
have to find a partner that fitsit.
But it sounds like with theseerotic personas which we're

(10:22):
going to get to, you're sayingthat not only do they map out
kind of where you're at, butalso where you can grow and
change so that you can connectwith a partner who might be a
different persona than you.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yeah, there is really good data on other similar
assessments Again, somethinglike attachment styles, for
instance.
You know, I think that when inthe 60s it was developed, we
really thought it was a one anddone and that some of us were
secure and the other ones fellto the wayside and just had

(10:58):
tumultuous relationships.
And, as we've seen, especiallyacross longitudinal research,
about a quarter of people arechanging their attachment to
style at any given moment.
So that tells us that ourdeepest connections with people,
our brain, how it's been wiredto perceive intimacy and

(11:25):
attachment changes based onexperience, based on self-growth
or development, or even perhapsfurther trauma or negative
experiences too, unfortunatelyand there is no reason why our
relationship with sexuality andtherefore also previous

(12:09):
experiences and dynamics andingrained patterns that we have
in our sexuality.
So it makes sense thatsomething like sexuality as well
changes across your life course.
And if you have had theexperience of more than a decade

(12:30):
of sexual experience, I'm sureyou have seen shifts in how you
engage with sex.
What you want out of sex, thepeople you tend to find sexy
maybe has broadened or beenchanged as well.
Your comfort with asking forwhat you want All of these

(12:50):
things combine and create aerotic persona for us and so, as
you go across your life, havedifferent experiences, age, etc.
You're going to relate not onlyto others differently but to
your own sexuality differently,and that's really what this

(13:11):
erotic persona framework givesus the ability to understand and
monitor across our life course,and in a very nonjudgmental
manner.
I think that's was a veryimportant part of developing
this framework, because we see,for instance, the unfortunate
sort of almost like animosityour culture puts on something

(13:35):
like an anxious attachment styleor something like that, when
there's nothing inherently goodor bad about having a certain
relationship with intimacy,although some are easier to
navigate with certain otherattachment styles, et cetera.
The same is true with eroticism.
You are going to find peoplewho immediately understand what

(14:00):
you are interested in in sex, atleast that night, right.
And then you're also going tofind people where it takes a bit
more communication and bridgingto get there.
But there's nothing saying thatbecause this person wasn't
immediately a fit doesn't meanthat they're not going to become
an amazing sexual and eroticpartner for you.

(14:22):
And that's what erotic personasreally give us is this language
to bridge our desires, tounderstand our own desires and
also see how they change overtime, also across relationships.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
So this should give you all hope.
For those of you out there whoare feeling hopeless either in a
relationship or coming out of arelationship, this is going to
be great advice for you and giveyou hope, moving forward, that
you can have the kind of sex youwant with your partner.
So I would like to now list outthese erotic personas and what

(15:02):
each one of them means, so I'mjust going to let you lead the
way through each one.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah.
So I'll start with the director, because it's perhaps the
easiest to understand out of theerotic personas for somebody
who's unfamiliar with somethinglike this.
I would say the directorfocuses on spontaneity,
physicality, visual stimulus hasan understanding of eroticism

(15:30):
that is a little bit more quoteunquote, straightforward in the
sense of what we've been raisedor acclimated to, understanding
what Western sexuality lookslike.
So these folks also tend toprioritize things like orgasms
and they're probably more likelyto say that they tend to show

(15:52):
affection or love throughphysicality.
And so sometimes the shadowside of the director and every
single one of these have a quoteunquote, shadow side.
The challenge that comes withbeing predominant in that style
is that you can sometimesprioritize the linearity of sex

(16:13):
that you assume should happen,like the, the procession of
events Once I'm aroused, then Ibecome desire.
I'm aroused, then I becomedesire, desirous of somebody,
then I am ready to have sex andit's a build up, and then I

(16:35):
climax and then that's the endand then maybe there's cuddling
or something.
But it's a very like specific,step by step path that sometimes
the directors tend to be verylike tied to in their sexuality.
So the next one that we cancover is the romantic and
they're more focused on intimacy, connection, and I always say

(16:58):
like, my keyword for them iscontext, and what I mean by
context is they aren't justgoing to at the drop of a hat
out of nowhere necessarily likethey're the least likely to, out
of nowhere, want to have sex.
They're far more likely to takeinto consideration things like

(17:18):
the quality of theirrelationship at that moment in
time, their mood state, howstressed they feel in general,
whether or not they feelsupported, whether or not they
feel good in their body andtheir esteem.
These folks also tend to reallyfocus on verbal affection and

(17:38):
affirmation because it's acontext cue and context can be
high context which are visual.
But if you're very contextualin your sexuality, you want the
easiest access point to knowwhen somebody loves you or
appreciates you, and that'shearing it.
So whether it's love letters ormessages throughout the day or

(18:04):
you know again, just the verbalaffirmations of you're beautiful
, you know like you're going tokill it today at work, etc.
That's really going to stokethe fire of the romantic.
And there is also a sexualdesire framework there that,
since we've gone over thedirector and the romantic, both
of these adhere closely to theromantic, being a responsive

(18:28):
form of desire, again, havingsort of context involved in what
makes them desirous, whereasthe director tends to be more
closely associated withsomething called spontaneous
desire, which is more of a Idon't know why I'm turned on
right now, maybe the wind blew acertain way or I saw a sexy

(18:49):
image so those two also have notonly their own sort of
personality traits attached tothem that cluster together, but
also modes of sexual desire thathave been studied for many
years.
Then there is the connector,which is the rarest of the
personas At Aria we only seearound 8% of our user base are

(19:13):
connectors and they focus onsensuality and stimulation and
they're similar to romantics inthe sense that context is very
important, but more so for theconnector.
Context has to regulation ofthe environment.
Is their body overstimulatedjust from the day?

(19:52):
Are they tense, are theydeactivated and really low
because there isn't enoughstimulation?
It's all about finding theright level of stimulation for
these people, whether it'svisual, audio, physical taste
etc.
But yeah, they're definitelythe rarest and also the hardest

(20:16):
to conceptualize, in a survey aswell, and so a lot of times
what we see are people goingbetween romantic and connector,
sort of finding which one theymore closely are over time.
Because when they're answering,you know, they may interpret
their need for an environmentthat is friendly to their

(20:37):
eroticism as well.
I need to feel safe and secure,which is a very romantic thing
to have right, but in realitythey're interpreting this like
stimulation based need in theireroticism to a more emotional,
relational need in theirrelationship.
And the fourth and final is theadventurer.

(20:57):
They tend to be most interestedin novelty and kink.
They are the types of peoplewho would say you know, my
interests are versatile, I wantto explore a lot, I'm very open
minded when it comes to newsides of sexuality.
They are also, you know, Ithink, the ones with this shadow

(21:21):
side to them.
That's a little bit surprising.
Where one?
If there's not enough novelty intheir relationship if that's
not, it's kind of funny.
But if novelty is not a habit intheir relationship which is a
paradox that I often talk about.
But this is the, this is thetruth for them If it's not a

(21:41):
constant thing that you'reworking on with your partner,
then they tend to have very highstruggles with their eroticism,
because they need that sort ofnewness, that freshness, that
tension built into theirrelationship, of trying
something new, and it's a veryself-expansive model of sexual
eroticism where you tend to seetrying something new with your

(22:05):
partner as becoming closer andgrowing together with your
partner, so it's not just asexual thing but also a
relational thing for them.
And another shadow side of thatcan be the cause sometimes of
not having novelty, which is thesexual people pleaser aspect of
being an adventurer.

(22:26):
You like a lot of things andmaybe your partner has a
dominant way of enjoying sex,and because you like that,
there's nothing wrong with that.
You allow them to take the lead.
But it compounds over time, andso it's really important for
adventurers to develop a veryhealthy communication style with

(22:48):
their partners around sex sothat it never becomes one
person's dominant style of sexat any given moment.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
What is the connector's shadow sign?

Speaker 1 (23:10):
shadow side.
Yeah, so the connector is.
Oftentimes it's theoverstimulation or
understimulation coming in there, and it's really really hard to
communicate that with somebodywho doesn't understand how
important sort of your nervoussystem reactions can be to sex
and relationship closeness.
So oftentimes what I hear fromconnectors is, thank God, one

(23:31):
that I now understand how totalk about this, because it's
been just a struggle right.
Like I don't know how todescribe that.
Like when I'm home and I canstill hear my kids or I know
that there's like a gross smell,that kind of wafts over here
every once in a while.
I can't set it aside and I don'tknow why that is, and my

(23:53):
partner really wants me to likeget out of my head.
But it's not so much gettingout of your head, it's very much
like your nervous system is soattuned and activated to
stimulation that it's true inyour case that this isn't you
being in your head so much asbeing in your body.

(24:14):
Like you actually are veryattuned to your body right now
and actually what needs tohappen is a conversation in
order to connect your head andyour body a little bit better
and start regulating thatnervous system, both through
external things like taking careof the things that are
triggering your nervous system,or also by making sure that you

(24:37):
take responsibility for gettingyourself into a relaxed state.
Like a lot of these people, thething that they need is a very
peaceful walk or a reallysensual bubble bath, these types
of things, listening to analbum that really grounds them.
Those are the things thatconnectors can do to start
getting them closer to themindset that they would want for

(24:59):
sex.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
So, as you were walking me through the different
personas, I thought to myselfoh, at first I was like, oh, I'm
totally romantic.
And then I'm like I'mdefinitely an adventure that
resonates with me.
Can you be a combination ofthese personas?
How does that work?

Speaker 1 (25:27):
does that work?
Yeah, absolutely.
I almost like interrupted you.
I was so excited that you cameto that.
But yeah, it's a spectrum.
So, for instance, we don't seea lot of people score super
highly in romantic and director.
Some people do, but those aretwo very different forms of
eroticism.
On the other hand, we see a lotof romantic score with
adventurer, a lot of directorsscore with adventurer.

(25:48):
We see a lot of connectors withromantic high scores.
Sometimes we do see directorswith connector, just because it
is like a.
It's a very like clearsensorial path for a director of
what to expect in terms ofstimulation.
So sometimes there's someintermingling there.
But really the coreassociations oftentimes are

(26:11):
romantic adventurer, director,adventurer or connector.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
Romantic I can see that.
I can see it because I've got alittle bit of like connector in
me, but I wouldn't say that'sthe strongest.
But definitely romantic andadventure Like I'm.
Like which one would I be?
I think I'm kind of both.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:29):
So this system then allows for someone to relate to
more than one erotic persona?

Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yes, yes, so there is no intrinsic incompatibility
between the personas.
What is true across the board,whether or not you want to use
this framework to understand itis that sexual compatibility is

(26:59):
a skill set that you developwith your partner that you
develop with your partner.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
So if you want to period, I mean first of all, has
anyone ever said that on myshow?

Speaker 1 (27:12):
No, that's insane, that's crazy, let me say it
again?

Speaker 2 (27:14):
Will you say it again for me?
Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
Your sexual compatibility is a skill set
that you develop with yourpartner.
It's not a personality trait,it's not something inherent to
you or them and irresolvable.
So when we're talking about itin the context of our personas,
one thing that I am very sort oflike orbiting around in this

(27:42):
conversation is their utility asa language and their ability to
frame the same concept just indifferent lenses that have
overlapping keywords, languages,et cetera, so that you can see

(28:04):
how these traits relate to oneanother.
And with our app, aria, weactually help start putting
together these curated journeys.
Essentially, that in a lot ofways, are built out of the
necessity to bridge yourpersonas with a partner, and

(28:28):
that is something likeunderstanding a romantic, for
instance, paired with anadventurer.
An adventurer may be reallydown to have that very emotional
, mind-body-s connected sexthat's going to trigger a
romantic eroticism.
But over time you know they'relooking for something different,

(28:50):
just to throw in some spice orwhatever, and the romantic may
sit there and be like well, isthis a rejection of our
closeness in sex?
Like, do you not want to havethis connective sex?
Instead, what the eroticpersonas can do there is say no,
actually your closeness thatyou developed in this sexual

(29:14):
play is an asset as you go andexplore something new with your
partner.
It lays the foundation for bothof you to try something new, be
explorative and integratethings that you like into
whatever style of sex you'rehaving at a given moment, right.
And so a lot of what we'redoing here with the personas is

(29:37):
less about saying you know,here's your persona, learn what
you like, what you dislike, andyou know, learn what your
partner likes and dislikes, andthat's it.
It's very much the next step,as the most important factor
here, which is now, what do youdo with it?
And that is, I think, one of thethings academia in general has

(30:00):
really, you know, oftentimesfallen short of giving us is,
you know, they give us reallygreat theoretical groundings and
sociological evidence, etc.
But then we're like okay, so isthere, is there a way for us to
like make our relationshipsbetter from that?
Finding outside of these likevery macro level concepts and

(30:23):
the personas grounds, grounds amacro concept of a generalized
psychological framework into.
Here are behaviors, here areplay styles, here is language,
here are exercises that you cango through with your partner,
here's erotica that you can read, that's personalized to each of
your personas, so that whenyou're both looking at, for

(30:45):
instance, bondage, one of yourerotic stories is centered
around how it's a romanticsensual acquiescence of control
you know narrative while theother person maybe has a little
bit more of the kinkier powerplay of it all.
But you're both looking at thesame play style and therefore

(31:07):
can tap into it through yourdifferent erotic personas.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
It sounds like this framework offers a way to
reframe the differences intoopportunities to come together.
That was a great example.
So a romantic might feel jarredwhen their partner is like,

(31:32):
yeah, we've been having someromantic sex for a while, I'd
like to throw in a spankingscene, right.
Or a bondage scene is a greatexample and the romantic person
is like what Don't you likemaking love?
You know what I mean.
And this offers a reframe.
This can still be superromantic and this is how it

(31:53):
would play out.
Bondage can be romantic.
You know, handing over controlto someone you trust so deeply
that you'd allow them torestrain you and do X, y and Z
can be seen as romantic.
So it offers a reframe.
So, instead of automaticallygoing to the clashing which I
think a lot of us do inrelationship oh, you want

(32:15):
something different than I do.
Oh, you don't like what we'vebeen doing, you're rejecting the
sex we've been having.
Rejecting the sex we've beenhaving, it can be reframed to oh
.
This is a way we can expand andstill honor what turns each of
us on.

Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah, and I think it's a world that we simply have
not been given language to havethese types of healthy
conversations with partners.
I mean, to be fair, we don'thave like words or a lexicon

(32:55):
around a lot of aspects of ourrelationships that we should
have.
But the problem when it comesto sex is that sex as a source
of pleasure is stigmatized inour Western culture still, and
you know I often get the refrainbut like, sex is everywhere,

(33:16):
like, etc.
And I'm always like, ok, well,what type of sex Like?
You see one version of sex thattends to happen in popular
culture over and over and overagain, and really what people
need is to see themselves in sexand see their own sort of like

(33:37):
desires and journeys withcomfort in sex.
And that's not going to looklike the guy pushing a woman up
against the wall and herinstantly just like wanting him
and him wanting her, and it'suncontrollable.
And they start having sex andwithin five seconds, all of a
sudden there's a you know,shared climax between the two of

(34:00):
them or something like that,right?

Speaker 2 (34:02):
So I just tell you that doesn't happen.
That almost never happens.
You cannot just push a woman ora vulva owner up against the
wall, shove it in and suddenlywe climax.
Very few of us.
Yeah, I mostly watch that andI'm like ow, ow ow yeah.
That's what I think too.

Speaker 1 (34:20):
I'm always kind of like I mean to be fair like
maybe I don't know, they're theexception, right, maybe they're
the ones out there that justhave a totally different arousal
mechanism than you know thevast majority of people with
vulvas.
But you know it's not realisticfor most of us.
Is all that I'm saying.
And then when you talk aboutsort of like sex education or

(34:43):
conversations around sex infamily systems, even early
relationships, et cetera, sex islike this dark corner of a room
that you know is there and youlike to go into but you're never
putting like a source of lightin.
You're just kind of like goinginto it.

(35:04):
It's clandestine, it's kind of amystery and some of that is fun
, like that is why a lot ofpeople describe the early days
in a relationship as soerotically charged, because you
simply don't know anything Likethe tension is high.

(35:32):
The discovery value of havingsex with a person is high at
that point in your relationshipsacrificing your ability to get
what you want, talk about whatyou want, see what sort of
problems you're encountering andhow you can maybe find ways
that benefit both of you in thisscenario and increase pleasure

(35:55):
for both of you as you change inyour sexuality.
Yeah, I mean the, the idea ofbeing able to not only converse,
bring light on, maybe evenreverse or reframe ideas around
sex in general, at a personaland macro level.

(36:17):
These are all really, reallyhelpful assets that the erotic
personas is able to start givingus, and it's even better that
the fact it's even bettered bythe fact that they have such a
solid ground of practical adviceattached to them so that you
can start taking action on itrather than having to go to

(36:40):
sessions or workshops or somesort of like therapy for it.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
Right.
I think that people oftentimesjust give up as soon as things
start to get stale and they trya couple of things but they
can't move that little measureforward and then they're like

(37:08):
we're just not sexuallycompatible and so it's like, all
right, they let it die on thevine and move on to the next
person, and then the next person, and then the next person.
One thing that I like that youjust said too, is you talked
about our sexuality changing, isyou talked about our sexuality
changing and I feel like peopledon't realize that that your

(37:36):
desire changes and develops andevolves over time, especially if
you continue to educateyourself.
And when I say educate when itcomes to sexual education, I'm
talking about pleasure basedsexual education, which you
accurately pointed out issomething we have none of.
We get none of.
Our families and our schoolsdon't teach us pleasure-based
sexual education.
It's purely reproductive,biological and reproductive.

(37:59):
It's all around making babies,which most of the sex we have is
not done in order to makebabies.
Right, the vast majority of it.
So as you start to learn moreabout pleasure-based sex and
explore whether that's through,you know, reading articles or
podcasts or you know, watchingethical porn, whatever it is

(38:25):
your mind opens up and you'relike, you know, I was stuck in
the world of wanting to bespanked for so long.
It's all I read about anddigested.
And now I'm like that's kind oflike that's fun.
But now I'm interested in X, yand Z and similar to what I'm
attracted to, right, I used towhen I first realized I was

(38:46):
queer.
I'm like, oh, I like masculinemen and feminine women.
And now I'm like I just like itall Because I'm growing,
evolving, expanding and changingand I think that offers a lot
of hope for people.
Right, because if you enter arelationship and you come up
against sort of a sexual wall,know that by educating yourself

(39:07):
and learning more and exposingyourself to more, you can move
that sort of stopping pointforward and create space where
you might be able to connect andgrow as a couple.
And it sounds like that theerotic personas are giving you
tools to do that.
Right Language also scenariosit sounds like that you can play

(39:32):
with together and learn fromand grow, and so you don't have
to just dump your partner andtry and find someone else who's
fun for now, right, a reallycommon example that people have,
because the only quote, unquotepleasure-based sexual education

(39:56):
that we get is porn.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
And what the porn industry is incentivized by are
people who are willing to spendmore and more money on their
subscription services or theirOnlyFans, etc.
On their subscription servicesor their OnlyFans, et cetera.
And the people who are willingto spend money tend to be people

(40:19):
who want more of this kink or amore extremified version of
this kink, and so porn isincentivized, in the essence, to
hypercharge any sort of kinkout there and to somebody, for
instance, who maybe is notinherently super kinky, they're

(40:44):
gonna go into a porn site andsee something that is an
extremified version of that sortof play and they might be
really like averse to evenconsidering themselves in a
scenario like that right and onthe other side of it.

(41:04):
You know, I think that somepeople also develop extremified
versions of kink because it'sthe model that they're given and
they continue to pleasurethemselves towards.
So, on multiple ends, the bestpleasure-based education we have
is not really teaching us muchabout nuance in any sort of

(41:31):
exploration, and what we get atwith a persona model is
understanding that all of theseplay styles have so many
different hues and gradients tothem and you have to understand
what the core of that play styleis for you and how that relates

(41:53):
to your erotic needs.
So, again, like the spanking, Ithink that there are really
kinky ways to get spanked,obviously, but there are also
really like sensual stimulationbased ways to get spanked.
And so somebody who's like aconnector right like have a

(42:13):
really relaxing evening and thenstart pleasure mapping with
things like paddles and likerollers and, you know, floggers
with different textures and sortof like fuzzy things etc.
And you start kind of using aspanking motion with those items
and you find which ones are themost, you know, sensual to the

(42:38):
person being mapped and itbecomes a very erotic thing for
somebody who may, in anothersetting, think of spanking as
far too stimulating, very muchassociated with pain and maybe
just too kinky for them too.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
So let's talk really quickly about which erotic
personas struggle the most whenthey're in relationship.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
It's a really interesting question.
I don't think that the eroticpersona is going to tell you in
itself if you're struggling.
I think the dynamic between youand your partner is very likely
to impact this.
For instance, in the recentresearch that we're about to

(43:30):
come out with here's a previewof what we found.
But those people who felt likeexploration was a burden, like
oh my God, now I have to figureout how to like master this
thing, you know.
Or people who felt resistancefrom their partner, not just you

(43:55):
know, anxiety, but like I don'tunderstand why we want to do
this, like this is silly or it's.
It feels like you just aren'thappy with what I'm giving you,
or something like that.
Right, they're the least likelyto report successful encounters

(44:18):
after trying a new play style.
It's not surprising, it's veryintuitive, but it's not tracked
onto their erotic personas.
It's really the dynamic of canwe have a really the dynamic of

(44:39):
can we have a communication andgood faith and open mindset
oriented approach to exploringnew things together?
And unfortunately, you know, I Itend to bucket people into four
groups when you're trying tochange something like erotic
play, which is one, it's reallyscary because you're worried
that your partner is going tofeel rejected or that they're

(45:03):
going to have their feelingshurt, which is, you know, not
what you're trying to say inthis instance, and there are
ways to frame it in ways thatyour partner doesn't have to
feel like they've been a anerotic failure for you, or
something like that too.
It's really scary to try andput into words what you do want.
Maybe you don't really knowwhat you want, necessarily, and

(45:26):
you're trying to figure out howto express that.
You're not quite where you wantto be with your partner, but
you, you think that this is agood place to go, but you're not
quite where you want to be withyour partner, but you, you
think that this is a good placeto go, but you're not really
sure why.
There's another issue withyou're just scared to create
change in the relationship.
In general.
Change is scary, it's uncertain, but that's like the premise of

(45:47):
exploration and vulnerabilityis like if you knew the outcome,
it wouldn't be exploration andvulnerability, right?
So you have to be able toembrace a little bit of that
risk factor, right?
And then the fourth category ofpeople are those who see change

(46:09):
as a risk to the entirestability of a relationship.
They may see it as if I changesomething, then everything
changes for us and therefore Ineed to just keep status quo.

(46:30):
And that's a little bitdifferent than the other group
which is like I'm scared to takerisk with my partner because
that's a, that's a risk aversionin sort of just like the
context of sex.
But other people have a muchbroader scale version of that,
where it's an entire risk to therelationship solidarity.

(46:50):
So there's that.
And I think oftentimes in thatgroup too you find the people
who are like we don't discussthis topic, like this topic is
scary to discuss, and I thinkthat if I bring up my desires or
needs, I'm going to be shamedor put down for them.

(47:13):
And that's oftentimes whypeople think the relationship is
at risk if they bring it up ina broader sense, because it's no
longer just a conversationaround oh, let's try something
new, even though it might bescary.
It's like, oh, you're going tothink I'm a different person,

(47:34):
like you're going to treat medifferently, and that's that's
terrifying for a lot of people.
But, as we kind of have coveredthroughout the conversation
that, I think it's self-evidentthat, like, if you come in with
something like a curated, youknow, like a curated, you know,

(47:57):
a night of play or sort of likejourney with your partner that's
based in bridging thosedifferent erotic personas, then
it should alleviate a lot ofthat for you.
It should take that emotionallabor of figuring out all of
these different aspects to whyyou may struggle with sex with
your partner or may not struggle, may just want to try something
new with your partner too,right, and it makes it

(48:18):
entertaining, easier,educational, but fun, and a
building, uh, a building blockfor you in your sex life as well
as your relationship.
So, yeah, I mean like back toyour original question there,
it's like it's not that anerotic persona is the issue,
it's how are we encountering andengaging with sex and our needs

(48:43):
from sex in our relationship,and is there one of those four
narratives happening that'spreventing us from getting to
the next phase of our sextogether?

Speaker 2 (48:56):
I think people oftentimes go to different
frameworks, like the eroticpersona or attachment styles or
whatever it is.
They figure out how to definethemselves.
Then they define their partnerand they're like see, we're not
compatible.
That's what the problem is andthat's an absolute falsehood,

(49:20):
right?
What you're saying, and Icompletely agree with and I
think is helpful for people tohear, is that it's not the style
, it's not the persona and thedifferences between them that
causes the problem in therelationship.
It's what you decide or not todecide not to do with them.

(49:42):
If you're like okay, we'redifferent and I'm not
comfortable talking about it, orit feels like too much work to
take on learning about it andfiguring out how to bridge it.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
that's where the problem lies and that's where
things break down yeah right andthere was so a part of our
research as well looked at thesepersonal narratives of people
exploring one of threeexperiences with their partner,
which ranged from more of akinky bondage scene to a wax

(50:18):
play scene to a sensory mappingscene, and we call our
experiences scenes from sort ofthat kinky culture.
But but when we looked at thosewho found the most success in
exploring, it was people whojust took on the opportunity as

(50:43):
a new experience, regardless ofwhether or not it ended in a
mind blowing orgasm.
You know, and it was reallythose people who are based in
this theory of self expansiverelationships, right, and in all
of the narratives that theygave.

(51:05):
So I had about 180 interviewednarratives from these people
right and 100, and I believe itwas 30 something.
So a vast majority of thenarratives brought up aspects,
practical applications ofself-expansion theory and again,

(51:27):
that is the idea that you growthrough new relationship
experience, that you better yourquality of relationship through
trying and experimenting withyour partner and you also.

(51:48):
A part of that is the self andyou also a part of that is the

(52:09):
self you discover new sides ofyourself that you can emphasize,
how this scene was able toexpand their vision of the
possible, their vision of thewanted and their vision of the
good.
Anxiety, the idea that, yeah,be a little bit nervous, but in

(52:31):
a good way, you know like you'reabout to try something new and
weird, maybe even and some ofthe narratives were like we
laughed we didn't really havethe most like sexual experience,
but it was very fun and we justhad like a great time together
and we can't wait for like thenext experience, type of thing.
So it's really about thatopenness as well as that

(52:54):
openness paired with the ideathat you're you're bettering
yourself in your relationship,even if it's not something that
ends up being in your regularrotation, right.

Speaker 2 (53:05):
Right.
Or even if it ends up not beingsexy because you end up
laughing about it, that still isintimacy, that's still sex and
that's the goal.
Right Is to have this greatexperience, even if it's like
that was weird.
Now we have something we cantalk about and laugh about and
reflect on.
We're not going to do it again,but we'll try something else,
right, yeah?

Speaker 1 (53:26):
Actually, I do want to say in that same point it's
fascinating because people willcome into Aria and say that they
want playfulness.
That's one of our number onethings.
People say that they want toexperience through their scenes
and the reality is then, likeyou know, a lot of those people

(53:48):
get scenes and engage and don'treally understand what
playfulness means when you'reengaging in new types of play,
right, and so it's thisfascinating dialectic really
about language and embodiment inthat sense, where we may say,
because intellectually we knowwe want play, which is

(54:09):
associated with fun and whateverwith our partner, but when we
encounter things that require usto really tap into that
playfulness, it can turn intoanxiety or reproach, right, and
the people who find success arethe ones who, when they
encounter, for instance, thosenerves associated with

(54:30):
playfulness or novelty ingeneral, they check in with
themselves and they actuallymove forward in a way that is
able to harness the nervoussystem's reaction into okay, I'm
going to giggle now and we'regoing to be okay with me
giggling, because it's a releaseof this frenetic energy inside

(54:52):
and also I'm not upset, I'm notangry, I'm just like there's a
lot of nerves going on right nowand if I have a space where I
can express playfulness with mypartner, whether it's again
through like laughter or it'ssort of like a joking tone
during sex or like, maybe evenlike a, an inversion of

(55:13):
something that you're doing,where, like somebody's trying to
do like a power play situationand you're new to it and so you
kind of, like you know, givethem flack for whatever it is
that's going on, right, and butit's really about finding that
version of play in the newexperience, because I think we
all want, theoretically, apartner who we can let our guard

(55:37):
down with and turn a fuck upinto a fuck.
Yes, you know.
So, yeah, that's another thingthat we do see at ARIA, with
those who kind of succeed quoteunquote in finding a very fun
experience through explorationand those who struggle the most.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
I love that.
So, for my listeners, before wecheck out, I'm going to ask you
, as I always do, to give themsome takeaways.
They're here listening probablybecause A they've struggled in
the past or they're strugglingnow in their connection.
They want to learn more aboutwho they are as erotic and
sexual people.
Let's just give them like threetakeaways from this

(56:18):
conversation that they canutilize tonight or the next time
they're with their partner, orwhatever it may be, to start
improving their sex and intimatelife, their relationship
Because in my mind it's all thesame.
From this conversation aboutthe erotic personas, what can

(56:38):
they start doing right now touse it and what they've learned
and start maybe moving theirrelationship with intimacy and
the person they're with in apositive direction or more
expansive direction?

Speaker 1 (56:53):
Yeah, number one I would say if this elicited a
reaction of I want to understandme and my partner better
erotically, definitely go takethe erotic persona quiz.
It's going to help you and it'sgoing to give you some language
there as well as play styles totry with that fit with your

(57:15):
framework.
I think another reallyimportant thing that you can do,
as I've expressed, one of thebiggest assets here is the
language value that having aframework gives you is opening a
conversation around what youfound interesting, curious or
insightful about your eroticpersona, and opening that

(57:41):
conversation with curiosityaround your partners and really
lean into that conversation.
I think that oftentimes we turnthat into kind of a clinical
conversation of well, this iswhat I'm like, here are my
symptoms and the prognosis as itstands, but I think eroticism

(58:04):
is so much more built on thattension and that interplay of
energy.
So as you go into thisconversation, feel so free like,
so, so free to like, lean intothe sexy little tidbits that
like.
Come up and maybe even havesome sort of like erotic
encounter from that conversation, because it's so charged with

(58:27):
sort of like your desires andneeds from each other, right,
and then I think that the thirdthing would be to start
reframing novelty as somethingthat is spontaneous in your
relationship by planning novelty.
And it's that paradox I sort ofmentioned earlier.

(58:51):
But a lot of people will saythat planning something takes
the excitement out of it or theerotic value out of it with
their partner.
And that's just not the case.
And I can prove that to you byasking you if you were excited
and erotically charged when youwere dating your partner.
Because dating was nothing butplanning logistics, all of those

(59:18):
components that it takes to putsomething on a calendar and
schedule it.
And what were we expecting?
We were expecting an eroticexperience.
We were expecting a romanticexperience.
We were expecting to probablyhave sex as well.
Like that is anyone who wantsto say that you know, we just

(59:39):
all of a sudden started havingsex after you planned a date,
it's like.
So I think that if you are toimplement sort of a resurgence
of date night logic into yourrelationship, it will over time

(01:00:05):
create a routinized novelty andthat is the best antidote, like
anything out there.
It's the best antidote tosexual monotony period.
End of sentence.
That is like any couple whotries that it's going to
increase something for them.
Now it's not everything thatyou need, but it's definitely a

(01:00:30):
solid starting point.
But yeah, those would be thethree suggestions on my end.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Those are all great.
Those are all great.
And sometimes the eroticism isin the actual planning.
Like, think about when you'replanning on going on a vacation
and every time you guys share anew thing about the location
you're going to, you get reallyexcited about it.
And that is the same thing youcan do with sexual adventures
and your time together.
Make it fun and not work right.

(01:00:56):
So I think those are greatpieces of information, Also for
my listeners.
Of course, I'm going to dropthe link to that quiz in the
notes of below this episode soyou can go and take it and learn
something more about yourself.
More information is alwaysbetter, right, it's always
better for you.

(01:01:17):
So at the very least, gettingthat information is going to
help you in one way or the other, whether that's understanding
yourself or your partner orwhat's happening between you.
Thank you so much for thisconversation and for giving me
and my listeners a new way tolook at eroticism, sex pleasure,
both our own and inrelationship.

(01:01:39):
Can you tell my listeners andviewers where they can find you
if they would like to find outmore?

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
Yeah, absolutely so.
If you're interested in theerotic persona framework
specifically, there is Aria'swebsite, which is ariafyi, so go
there if you want to try andtake the test.
If you just really vibe with me, then that's great.
I am on Instagram as mindonloveso you can always check me out

(01:02:08):
there and I also have a personalwebsite that you can scope out
if you want the nitty gritty ofeverything I do and that's also
mindonlovecom and low desire.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
You are a full sexual ecosystem and once you start to
learn the language, you'regoing to be able to engage in
erotic relationships in a muchmore fulfilling way.
Today's episode just covered anew language, if you will, and

(01:02:48):
gave you access to another wayto talk about sex with a partner
or even with yourself, asyou're exploring your own
personal intimacy intimate lifewith yourself.
So I hope that you got a lotfrom it and I hope you'll go and
check out that quiz, because Iknow that I am going to, so
maybe I'll report back and tellyou what I found out, but thank
you so much for joining me todayand having this conversation.

(01:03:12):
It was very enlightening.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
Oh, it was my pleasure to speak about pleasure
.

Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
It's a great job to have, isn't it?
Yeah, and to my listeners,until next time I'll see you in
the locker.
Cheers, cheers.

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