October 7, 2023 • 39 mins
I think that learning a subject from the source material, research, science has been the key to getting excellent results for me.
I think when you learn a "system" from someone, you are limited by their system, especially if they don't share their source material so that you can keep learning.
https://richardhazel.podia.com
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to the Acupuncture Outsider podcast.
My name is Richard Hazel and in the time it takes for you to commute to or from work,
I hope to have shared something of interest about orthopedic acupuncture using motor points,
trigger points,
(00:23):
myofascial slings,
uh neuro functional acupuncture segmental treatments,
anything that crosses my mind that seems to be of interest.
I hope you'll enjoy it.
Hello and welcome to another episode of The Acupuncture Outsider.
(00:46):
This is Richard Hazel and uh I guess I just uh today I want to talk a bit about uh my trip to Amsterdam.
We had our first European uh orthopedic and sports acupuncture Congress.
Um I was joined by two of my friends and colleagues,
(01:10):
um Josh Margolis from California and Jenny needs from California.
Um And we had a great time.
We really did.
We had,
we,
the congress was well attended.
Um people seem to have loved the material.
Um They,
I think everybody really enjoyed it and wants us to see another one.
(01:35):
And uh yeah,
we had a really great time and um I had an opportunity to spend some time with Josh and Jenny more socially for food and um we had some really great conversations about um our profession and uh education and um,
(01:58):
oh,
the,
the challenges of,
of differentiating how you treat uh,
chronic pain as opposed to acute injury,
all sorts of things like that.
And um,
I wanted to share some of my thoughts about that.
We,
um,
I think we were in agreement that um,
(02:21):
um,
what we teach and,
and um what we learn and share needs to be open source.
It needs to be available to as many people as it can be.
And that we,
I think we all agreed that none of us,
(02:43):
none of the three of us has any interest at all in trademarks and copyrights and um naming our system,
so to speak like,
oh the Hazel method or,
or something like that.
Um And I want to talk about why that is um my,
(03:07):
my podia course is,
by the way,
when you finish a course on podia,
there is an option to receive a certificate of completion and we do that for live conferences to live seminars,
you get to,
you get a certificate that says that you completed that course and then you can get um you can get PDAs ce us um things like that.
(03:30):
I'm all all for.
That's,
that's great.
And in some countries,
they really,
really love to,
to be able to show to their patients the education that they've received.
So they like certificates.
It helps to validate them in their otherwise skeptical community.
(03:53):
So I totally get that and I'm not opposed to that at all.
Um What I'm not,
what I'm not a big fan of is say I create the Hazel method.
I would never call it that,
but we might as well call it that because it's never happening anyway.
(04:13):
So,
um so I create the Hazel method and then I create this like curriculum and you come to my courses and you pay some amount of money and you have to complete them in order.
And then like you finish,
you know,
your fifth or sixth round of courses and then you get this big,
(04:34):
you know,
cert certification and then you,
and then you get to be on the directory so that people who are looking for acupuncturists who are trained in the hazel method can find you.
And uh I think it was Jenny who was saying,
you know,
the problem with that is everybody learns at their own level and some people will take longer um to become really proficient even if they've taken all your courses,
(05:07):
like they came,
they attended,
they were successful at showing up and completing the course.
Does it mean that they are as competent as the educators who are teaching the course?
Not necessarily.
So now you're creating this false of,
(05:29):
of accomplishment that um that could reflect poorly on the person who's passing out those certificates.
So there's that the,
that and that was,
I thought it was a very good point that Jenny made.
Um the point I was making was I'm always learning from my patients.
(05:52):
So as I get other tough cases,
you see conditions that maybe you haven't seen before,
maybe you find a condition like blepharospasm that very few people will ever encounter in their clinic.
And maybe you have success with that.
That's something that you want to share openly because there are very few people who are going to encounter that and the,
(06:18):
the two or three who can benefit from what you found need to have access to that information so they can help people because blepharospasm is a really a difficult thing.
It's a,
it,
it,
it has a major impact on the quality of life for that person.
(06:39):
Um you know,
light sensitivity and headaches and just the inability to find a sense of rest when your face is spasming.
So,
um so it needs to be open source.
It needs to be as open as um any medical information that you can look for and we can't trademark our way of treating something and uh give it a special name and then tell everybody else they can't teach it or they shouldn't be allowed to use it without paying for the privilege.
(07:18):
Um I don't have a method.
I don't have a hazel method because how I treat today is different from how I treated two years ago,
maybe one year ago on certain things.
Four years ago,
six years,
eight years ago,
(07:39):
it's so different because I'm always learning.
And if I,
if I become satisfied with what I've accomplished,
I have great results.
By the way,
I,
uh,
I had the best day yesterday,
all these patients telling me how great I was.
And I was just saying,
you know,
the needle does all the magic.
(08:01):
I just know where to put it.
And,
um,
I really,
you know,
I don't,
I,
I think if you don't stay humble,
you're not teachable.
As soon as you know,
something with certainty,
you stop looking for answers.
And I never want to be like that.
I never want to know for certain.
(08:22):
And I've said it before,
but you gotta stay humble,
you gotta stay teachable.
And for that reason,
you don't,
you don't put your information that you want people to have into amber.
And now it's a set,
fixed set of facts that someone has to learn and receive your blessing for.
(08:45):
Um,
the thing I think Josh and Jenny and I agreed is that when you're seeing patients every single day,
it will humble you,
you will hit a wall with someone that you thought was going to respond the way everybody else ever always did.
(09:09):
And then they don't,
and now they're counting on you to help them and you've got to figure it out or at least you're hopefully gonna try.
And that means more education it means research,
it means like spending some time with some books that have lots of footnotes and that's how you learn,
(09:31):
that's how you get better.
And I was thinking,
you know,
I think if I wanted to summarize how I feel,
I want to say to people who want to be really good at what they do,
who want to be really great at treating pain and mobility,
chronic and acute injury.
(09:53):
Maybe you wanna work with for a pro sports team,
maybe you wanna work in a pain clinic.
I would encourage you to not learn somebody else's method.
Take their course,
take their courses,
(10:14):
whatever it is,
learn what you like from their courses and then keep learning,
take other people's courses,
take whatever interests you because whatever interests you is what you're going to excel at.
It's like when I study foreign language,
(10:34):
you cannot learn a foreign language by watching videos that are of no interest to you.
It's,
it's how the brain works.
You need,
if you're gonna learn foreign language,
you need to learn from people speaking the language where you can comprehend at least 80% of it.
(10:55):
And it needs to be on a topic that you're really interested in that you would really watch in your own native language.
That is how you're going to learn.
And it's the same thing with a complicated subject like pain and the human body and how to help it.
(11:17):
You need to take an interest,
needs to be of interest to you.
So take other people's courses and follow what you're interested in and learn from those things from that person that help you to be better in the clinic.
(11:38):
I would say if you,
I think one of the things that has helped me the most to help other people has been that at a at an early phase in,
in my life as an acupuncturist,
people were asking me to teach um things about motor points and pain referral and things like that.
(12:01):
So if you study and learn,
as if you're going to be an educator,
you will absorb information and you'll find your weak spots very quickly.
As soon as you need to say,
with certainty that something is happening,
(12:23):
it could be as simple as,
as you want to tell somebody the origin and insertion and action of a muscle.
As soon as you have to tell that person who's trusting you,
you will have second thoughts about whether or not it's correct and you will look to be sure that you're correct and it's that action and that curiosity and the desire to be correct about those things that is going to ingrain it in you.
(12:58):
If you have to teach it,
you're going to be a lot more uh teachable because you're going to make sure that what you're saying is correct and not just something that you remembered that somebody else told you.
Um that's the other thing about just learning from other educators is if you just take what they said to you and you just say yes,
(13:22):
he said it and it's absolutely the fact,
you know,
like if you had to turn around and did teach that to somebody,
you might spend the time looking at the research to see if that statement is actually true.
And I think you'll find there are a lot of people out there giving you a lot of dogmatic things.
(13:46):
Some people saying you can't use electric stem or you can't use motor points on people with uh autoimmune conditions.
You can't use uh you know,
they're just,
they come up with these things,
OK?
If you,
if you listen to them,
you're just not gonna,
that some people might not even get help because you,
(14:08):
because that person told you you can't do that.
There are so many people who come out of acupuncture school who are afraid to put a negative and a positive lead on two sides of the spine because they've been told you can't do that,
you can't cross the midline.
And I mean,
(14:28):
there's so many things like that.
Um I mean,
you know,
let's not even go into the stuff you learn in TCM education like you have to have a cotton ball ready when you take the needle out or the chi will escape and then you will,
you will have depleted their chi or,
(14:49):
or um do you want to tonify this point or do you want to sedate this point and to tonify,
we do what we would do with a radio and we turn it to the right clockwise.
Like we're turning up the volume,
we're going to tonify and then we know we want to disperse.
(15:10):
So now we're turning down the radio knob and we're going to turn to the left and then somehow the body knows like what you were trying to accomplish and,
and that,
and that thing will happen.
We,
we learn all sorts of things like that.
If you don't question it,
you're probably not going to learn anything new.
(15:31):
You have to think about what that person said and ask yourself,
would I say that to somebody?
Would I tell somebody that that is absolute fact?
And if they doubt it,
how do I back it up?
Like,
know where that information came from and who came up with that idea and do other people of that level of expertise,
(15:53):
share that opinion because if it's only one person who has that idea,
the word charlatan comes to my mind,
it's,
you know,
when somebody has like secret knowledge that nobody else has and you need to pay them $5000 to learn it.
That,
I mean,
that's a Charlatan and we see them in every industry,
(16:18):
you see them in health and fitness,
you see them in alternative health,
you see them in our,
in our world of,
of um alternative medicine,
like acupuncture and other fields.
There's always somebody who's like trained with the master and the guru and now they have this like information that nobody else has and they're gonna teach it to you,
(16:42):
but you gotta pay them like $5000 um and bring them flowers and you know,
um we have those people in our world,
in the world of acupuncture and in the world of acupuncture where we land more on the side of science,
we still have people who are,
(17:03):
you know,
basically Charlatan's telling people that this is how it is and this is how you have to do it.
And if you don't do it that way,
then bad things will happen.
Um and you have to pay them to learn how to do it.
And then it turns out somebody else who took their course says,
oh,
that's what I learned from.
So and so that,
oh I learned that from one of these German uh guys,
(17:27):
uh electric stem guys from the mid 20th century,
he was studying this.
That's where that came from.
And then,
you know,
you'll find out all these people have like magical secret information,
somebody else actually developed it.
And you'll a lot of times acupuncturists fall prey to it because they haven't studied with all the scientific uh doctors,
(17:50):
they haven't studied the doctors who,
who came up with this information.
They learned from an acupuncturist and that acupuncturist told them something and they had no way to know that that was BS or,
or somebody else's information.
And so then,
because they have like a trademarked name on their system,
then you're paying them a lot of money to learn the magic,
(18:12):
the system and it,
it,
it's somebody else's information.
If it actually works,
somebody else also did it.
Ok?
Because the human body is like that,
it doesn't know,
it doesn't know what the practitioner is thinking,
the body just responds.
So,
you know,
if it's,
(18:33):
if it's valid,
somebody else has validated it somewhere.
Um So look for multiple sources to back up what you believe to be true.
So that,
you know,
it's true.
And then when you've studied like that,
you actually retain that information.
(18:53):
And then maybe one day you do want to become an educator,
you really will have the ability to help people to see things clearly because you've studied it from multiple sources.
You understand it well enough to explain it simply something Einstein said.
If you know something,
well,
you can explain it simply.
Um And that's the way complex things are.
(19:15):
If you understand complex concepts,
you can explain them to almost anybody and they can understand it,
you will find a way to make it make sense because you already understand the systems well enough to know how to simplify the exp explanation.
So,
um so that's quite a tangent.
(19:36):
But you know,
um you know,
Josh presented,
Josh Margolis was presenting in,
in Amsterdam uh about chronic pain.
And it,
and it just really highlighted um the,
the things that I,
that I'm encountering um personally in,
in my own treatment of chronic pain,
(19:57):
he was saying things where I was like,
yes,
yes,
absolutely.
Yes.
Things that I haven't heard a lot of people say treating chronic pain is so different from treating,
for instance,
athletes,
young athletes,
ok,
treating,
treating chronic pain is so different.
(20:20):
Um because of things like central sensitization and segmental sensitization,
um that makes all the difference,
learning how to find the affected segments,
learning how to treat those affected segments.
That's how,
how you're gonna move forward for somebody who has been in pain for so long that,
(20:40):
that,
that,
that you can't just muscle test your way to success with that person.
Um You can't just,
you can't just test their abductors and then treat what's weak and then they're going to get better if they've been in chronic pain,
the signaling is different.
They,
their segments are sensitized,
(21:02):
their brain is getting signals of pain constantly.
And that,
that's um that that's going to basically make the,
make the body think that um they're in pain even if there's no reason to be in to,
(21:23):
to think they're in pain.
I don't know if that makes sense.
Hopefully it does.
Um Sorry,
I sound distracted but I'm trying to mute notifications.
Uh Sorry about that um trying to mute the notifications on my laptop because they started coming in and I muted my microphone.
(21:49):
So I'm just gonna leave let the uh notifications bing if they come in there.
Sorry about that.
Um But the,
the point,
the point I wanted to make really is when it comes to your own study and education and wanting to get better results for your patients,
(22:09):
try approaching it as if you're going to teach it,
meaning go to the source,
go to the source material,
the doctors,
the research,
go to the scientific information,
not to the,
the local educators like me.
(22:32):
Mm um Don't you know,
II I think people should still,
I think people should still um um you know,
come to my conferences and,
and,
and listen to my podcast.
But that's because I'm pointing you in,
I'm pointing you to the sources.
OK?
I'm like,
I'm doing a lot of the heavy lifting and then once I find these great things that work and I tell you how they work and I show you how they work.
(22:57):
Then I tell you like,
how did I learn that?
Where did I learn it from?
Was it?
Which doctor was it from?
It wasn't from another acupuncturist?
OK.
That's just like a given.
OK.
Because that's always,
that's the game of telephone.
Um The,
the things that are successful with the human body are going to have research behind them and that's gonna be doctors,
(23:23):
you know,
researchers,
it's gonna be um,
pain management doctors.
It's gonna be people who are doing uh,
research work at the NIH.
It's not going to be an acupuncturist who has the final word.
We,
the acupuncturists who are doing that education are,
(23:44):
are your kind of your bridge to the source?
Ok.
So you come to a seminar,
I tell you about nerve entrapments that are affecting migraines.
I show you how I treat migraines that has been very successful for me.
And then I explained to you how the occipital nerves are entrapped by the trapezius,
(24:04):
a neurosis or the SCM.
I show you that I learned about it a lot from Doctor Andrea Trescott.
And this is her book about peripheral nerve entrapments.
And we learn about central sensitization from Doctor Jp Shaw.
And here is his research about central sensitization.
And this is why I use a high frequency stem for uh for that for the long term,
(24:31):
uh for,
you know,
neuro modulating um pain for somebody who's had migraines for so long that possibly they're centrally sensitized and why we're gonna use pens,
which,
which I learned about from,
you know,
Craig uh Doctor Craig.
And here's what he was doing and he learned about it because his wife had migraines and this is what worked.
(24:52):
So it's a,
it's a chain of information,
but there's,
there's doctors and there's pain research and there's a lot of things involved.
So when I teach something.
Uh Hopefully no one thinks it's the Hazel method or that I'm a Charlatan that hopefully they're,
(25:12):
they're listening to what I'm telling them and they're reading the ref references that I put in there and none of them are acupuncturist.
They're,
they're legit medical doctors giving you that information.
We as acupuncturists can be a great bridge to that information.
But like I said,
(25:33):
if you are going to be an educator,
you're gonna not take my word for it.
You're gonna say,
oh,
well,
that's what Rich Hazel said.
And this,
and he said,
Andrea Trescott said that.
Now I'm gonna see if somebody has peer reviewed her work and see what they say.
Um You could do that.
(25:53):
But,
but I,
I personally think if,
if what she says is working,
then I'm gonna do what she says and I'm not going to worry about it until my patients are getting better.
And then if they aren't getting better based on what Doctor Trescott has said,
now,
I need to actually look further and find somebody else who is treating the same condition in a different way from a different concept.
(26:14):
Um And then I'll tell you about that person and I'll tell you what they said.
Um And that's my role,
that's like if,
if I'm an educator in our world,
then my role is to find the good sources of information,
share those good sources and then simplify the complexity.
(26:34):
So that almost anybody can take what I said and apply it tomorrow on their patient with that problem and then get a good result and hopefully,
then have the curiosity to say,
OK,
that worked.
Why did it work?
I'm going to go read what Rich said,
(26:55):
I should read about that thing so that I can understand it and then I can explain it to my patients.
And then when they start sending other people who have this condition,
then they will understand why they're getting better.
And as the person who's treating them,
who is now looking at the source will know how to vary their treatment based on,
(27:20):
you know,
what they see from what they originally thought was the problem.
They'll know how to adjust the treatment because they'll have an understanding of the whole concept from having read the,
the source material.
And they,
they won't be relying on that person whose method they learned there.
(27:41):
I learned the Hazel method and,
and the Hazel method doesn't have a way to treat Xy and Z.
So,
you know,
so you're just gonna lather rinse and repeat and do,
do what you saw,
you know,
from the Hazel method and it's not getting better.
You know,
you've got,
you've got to be able to think like an educator and say,
(28:02):
well,
if I wanted to teach about this condition and my results suck right now,
what else do I need to learn so that my results will be better.
And what am I missing?
You know,
is it the fascia,
is it an autonomic,
(28:23):
you know,
an autonomic issue?
Is this,
is this,
um,
all nerve or is it something else?
Maybe it's active trigger points that are causing this problem?
Maybe this person is,
has some sort of ergonomic issue at work that keeps repeating this problem.
Maybe it's postural,
(28:44):
maybe,
you know,
maybe it's some day to day thing that is causing this problem.
Um,
you have to be able to think about all the ways that that could cause this person to not get better.
And there's always something you can learn from that you're always gonna find something that you didn't know.
(29:06):
Somebody else said.
Well,
it's this way.
And then,
you know,
and if you've studied,
if you've looked at a lot of these other methods,
sometimes you're gonna hear somebody's method and you're gonna say,
oh,
that's really complicated and interesting,
but it doesn't resonate with me.
So I'm not spending a lot of time learning that because even though they're claiming that really works,
(29:27):
I can't think like that,
that,
that doesn't even,
that doesn't make sense according to how I see things or according to the patients that I see.
Um,
so,
you know,
like you're,
you,
you have to find what resonates with you and how you see things.
(29:48):
And I was telling that to somebody,
you know,
somebody else when I was in Amsterdam,
I was,
when I was teaching somebody raise their hand and they were like,
are you using like,
um you know,
um what was he saying?
Something like muscle energy techniques?
Are you using like myofascial,
you know,
um stretch?
Are you doing stretching and,
(30:08):
and muscle um work?
And I said,
um honestly,
no,
because I have people get up in the middle of the treatment and see how they feel and then I have them get up at the end of the treatment and see how they feel.
And if they feel great,
then I don't feel like I need to add anything to that treatment,
(30:30):
they already feel great.
They're like,
they're like 100% better.
Like why am I adding some sort of thing?
Because somebody else said you have to or somebody else said you should or this is somebody else's technique and I learned how to do it and this is what I do.
But,
but what I,
my answer to him was,
I think you should do that.
(30:51):
If you love it,
you should do that.
And that's always going to be my answer.
Do what you love,
do what resonates with you and you know what?
You're probably making a whole lot more money than I am doing what you love to do because people probably love it.
(31:11):
You know,
I bet if I was doing some massage at the end,
people would just love it and they would want to come more often.
But it just doesn't resonate for me.
It's just not how I think and I don't want my treatments to be something I don't enjoy.
I don't want my treatments to be something that I feel like I'm throwing in there just to like,
(31:35):
you know,
make it like a spa visit or something.
That's just not me.
It's just not,
and I have to be true to what I,
what I do and how I do it.
And I shared a review,
somebody put on Google where for,
you know,
she basically came in for her first visit for migraines and she was having a migraine at the time and she'd been having multiple migraines per week,
(31:58):
constantly taking her medications for it.
And she'd been struggling for the past four years with like really regular migraines and,
and after her first visit,
then I went away to Amsterdam and I was gone for two weeks and then I came back and she had not had a headache.
And then by the,
you know,
fourth week after her treatment,
she had still not had a headache.
(32:19):
And then she left this really great Google review and in the review,
she tells people that the treatment was only 10 minutes and,
and that's absolutely true.
It's absolutely true because on the first visit for a migraine patient,
I don't over,
I don't want to overdo it.
I don't want to give them more headaches.
I don't want to really overdo how long they have stem.
(32:39):
Also.
I'm aware of the fact that she's nervous about the needles.
She was very nervous about the needles and,
and it was 10 minutes of electric stem and then some,
and I think the winning um part of the treatment was the trigger point release of her upper trapezius.
You know,
that front band of the upper trapezius that causes headaches because that was clearly the thing that was reproducing her migraines.
(33:08):
Um When I did my intake,
I was able to tell like this left upper trap was the main cause of her headache.
So I did those trigger points last and then I put some CBD on it and I told her,
you know,
I'm not going for perfection here.
I'm just going for like release enough of this that it'll feel better.
Um But probably the next time I see you,
(33:30):
we really get the rest of these trigger points and then I think you'll be a lot better off.
So you may have some headaches,
you may even have a headache after the treatment.
I'm not sure.
Um Anyway,
she didn't have any headaches for like a month.
And then she posted on Google that she had a 10 minute treatment.
So I was like,
oops,
that doesn't look really good.
It looks like it looks like she just got this little short treatment.
(33:53):
But,
you know,
a lot of um,
our one hour appointment time was spent talking and me explaining things and how this was gonna,
how,
how,
you know,
my methodology and my thinking about it and you know,
and then um the trigger point release,
we took some extra time is probably another 10 minutes doing the upper trap.
(34:14):
Uh trigger points because I was going very slowly and trying to,
you know,
make it as calm and easy for her as possible.
So,
um it's probably like really closer to 20 minutes of treatment time and me massaging some CBD into our upper tribes and things like that.
Ok.
So,
but it was funny because she,
(34:35):
she posted that I gave her a 10 minute,
the treatment was 10 minutes anyway.
Um,
that,
that is,
but that's legit.
That's like that is how a lot of my neck treatments are.
A lot of my neck treatments don't take very long and I'm,
I'm not gonna apologize and I'm not gonna throw in some extra modalities to make it last longer because somebody thinks that that I'm a massage therapist or a prostitute and that they're paying me for my time.
(35:04):
And in fact,
no,
you're,
you're not,
you're paying for my knowledge and my treatment and you're paying for a result and if you got the result and usually it,
it exceeds expectation,
then you got your money's worth,
you know.
Um,
I,
I treated a fireman before I left.
(35:26):
He is a retired fireman who has chronic pain,
mid back pain,
low back pain.
Couldn't stand up straight.
Those were in his intake can't walk straight straight straight up.
Um,
and I treated him right before I left for Amsterdam.
And I just saw him yesterday and it's been a couple of weeks and I said,
how are you doing?
And he gave me a big hug and he's so happy.
(35:46):
He said he's standing up straight.
He has,
he's like feeling great,
was able to like lift and carry things and his back is doing better and nobody can believe it.
And um and you know,
he um he was,
he's super excited about his um results and um what was the whole point of that?
(36:13):
So,
you know,
um I guess the whole point is the results that I get are good and I don't need to,
I don't need to add capping or um sometimes I do some iastm like soft tissue when it's necessary for fascia,
but I don't throw anything in um on top just to make it,
(36:36):
make the treatment last longer.
Like his follow up took about 20 minutes.
That was it.
And he felt great.
So if somebody feels great,
I've done what I need to do,
I've provided them.
Oh,
I was telling you that story because when he was paying um the follow up for first respond.
(36:57):
Well,
actually,
yeah,
the follow up for the first responders,
I give a discount to like police fire um nurses and doctors.
So um it was $90 And so I said,
ok,
so your,
your first responder rate is $90.
And then he said,
you know,
if you wanted to add two zeros to that,
it would still be worth it.
(37:19):
So he,
I feel like he valued what he got and I didn't have to throw any bells and whistles in,
you know,
with um extra massage or um cupping or whatever.
Um Other things people are adding to their treatment to make it feel like 45 minutes.
(37:41):
Um,
he spent about 20 minutes on the table and was super excited and um booked his follow up for next week.
And uh I said,
you know,
if you're feeling really good and you just want to go a couple of weeks and see how it goes.
He's like,
no,
no,
no,
you,
you told me 3 to 5,
let's do three.
I'm gonna come in next week.
I'm super excited,
(38:02):
whatever you wanna do,
we're gonna do.
I said,
ok,
so then I want you to get really picky with me.
Ok,
like in the next week,
all those things that you just kind of ignore because you just like push through and you're just used to it.
It's your normal.
I want you to start getting really picky about it.
Ok?
Like if there are things like that you just don't do because it hurts or it's a problem.
(38:28):
Those are the things we want to work on next week,
we're gonna get really picky because,
uh,
and he's like,
yeah,
I totally get it.
Like,
like,
like there are,
we all have those things that we,
we know when we come to the curb,
we step up with the right foot,
not the left because when we do with the left and the hip hurts or something like that.
So I'm like,
get really picky.
Ok,
(38:48):
that's what we're gonna,
that's what we're gonna work on next week.
So,
ok,
I have really talked a long time.
This is a long episode.
Sorry about that.
Um,
anyway,
I had some thoughts I had,
I had some things I wanted to get off my chest and I did and,
um,
hopefully it resonated with some of you and,
(39:11):
uh,
next episode will be a little bit more focused on a specific issue or specific type of issue.
Ok.
Have a good one.
Take care.
Welcome to the Acupuncture Outsider podcast.
My name is Richard Hazel and in the time it takes for you to commute to or from work,
I hope to have shared something of interest about orthopedic acupuncture using motor points,
trigger points,
(00:23):
myofascial slings,
uh neuro functional acupuncture segmental treatments,
anything that crosses my mind that seems to be of interest.
I hope you'll enjoy it.
Hello and welcome to another episode of The Acupuncture Outsider.
(00:46):
This is Richard Hazel and uh I guess I just uh today I want to talk a bit about uh my trip to Amsterdam.
We had our first European uh orthopedic and sports acupuncture Congress.
Um I was joined by two of my friends and colleagues,
(01:10):
um Josh Margolis from California and Jenny needs from California.
Um And we had a great time.
We really did.
We had,
we,
the congress was well attended.
Um people seem to have loved the material.
Um They,
I think everybody really enjoyed it and wants us to see another one.
(01:35):
And uh yeah,
we had a really great time and um I had an opportunity to spend some time with Josh and Jenny more socially for food and um we had some really great conversations about um our profession and uh education and um,
(01:58):
oh,
the,
the challenges of,
of differentiating how you treat uh,
chronic pain as opposed to acute injury,
all sorts of things like that.
And um,
I wanted to share some of my thoughts about that.
We,
um,
I think we were in agreement that um,
(02:21):
um,
what we teach and,
and um what we learn and share needs to be open source.
It needs to be available to as many people as it can be.
And that we,
I think we all agreed that none of us,
(02:43):
none of the three of us has any interest at all in trademarks and copyrights and um naming our system,
so to speak like,
oh the Hazel method or,
or something like that.
Um And I want to talk about why that is um my,
(03:07):
my podia course is,
by the way,
when you finish a course on podia,
there is an option to receive a certificate of completion and we do that for live conferences to live seminars,
you get to,
you get a certificate that says that you completed that course and then you can get um you can get PDAs ce us um things like that.
(03:30):
I'm all all for.
That's,
that's great.
And in some countries,
they really,
really love to,
to be able to show to their patients the education that they've received.
So they like certificates.
It helps to validate them in their otherwise skeptical community.
(03:53):
So I totally get that and I'm not opposed to that at all.
Um What I'm not,
what I'm not a big fan of is say I create the Hazel method.
I would never call it that,
but we might as well call it that because it's never happening anyway.
(04:13):
So,
um so I create the Hazel method and then I create this like curriculum and you come to my courses and you pay some amount of money and you have to complete them in order.
And then like you finish,
you know,
your fifth or sixth round of courses and then you get this big,
(04:34):
you know,
cert certification and then you,
and then you get to be on the directory so that people who are looking for acupuncturists who are trained in the hazel method can find you.
And uh I think it was Jenny who was saying,
you know,
the problem with that is everybody learns at their own level and some people will take longer um to become really proficient even if they've taken all your courses,
(05:07):
like they came,
they attended,
they were successful at showing up and completing the course.
Does it mean that they are as competent as the educators who are teaching the course?
Not necessarily.
So now you're creating this false of,
(05:29):
of accomplishment that um that could reflect poorly on the person who's passing out those certificates.
So there's that the,
that and that was,
I thought it was a very good point that Jenny made.
Um the point I was making was I'm always learning from my patients.
(05:52):
So as I get other tough cases,
you see conditions that maybe you haven't seen before,
maybe you find a condition like blepharospasm that very few people will ever encounter in their clinic.
And maybe you have success with that.
That's something that you want to share openly because there are very few people who are going to encounter that and the,
(06:18):
the two or three who can benefit from what you found need to have access to that information so they can help people because blepharospasm is a really a difficult thing.
It's a,
it,
it,
it has a major impact on the quality of life for that person.
(06:39):
Um you know,
light sensitivity and headaches and just the inability to find a sense of rest when your face is spasming.
So,
um so it needs to be open source.
It needs to be as open as um any medical information that you can look for and we can't trademark our way of treating something and uh give it a special name and then tell everybody else they can't teach it or they shouldn't be allowed to use it without paying for the privilege.
(07:18):
Um I don't have a method.
I don't have a hazel method because how I treat today is different from how I treated two years ago,
maybe one year ago on certain things.
Four years ago,
six years,
eight years ago,
(07:39):
it's so different because I'm always learning.
And if I,
if I become satisfied with what I've accomplished,
I have great results.
By the way,
I,
uh,
I had the best day yesterday,
all these patients telling me how great I was.
And I was just saying,
you know,
the needle does all the magic.
(08:01):
I just know where to put it.
And,
um,
I really,
you know,
I don't,
I,
I think if you don't stay humble,
you're not teachable.
As soon as you know,
something with certainty,
you stop looking for answers.
And I never want to be like that.
I never want to know for certain.
(08:22):
And I've said it before,
but you gotta stay humble,
you gotta stay teachable.
And for that reason,
you don't,
you don't put your information that you want people to have into amber.
And now it's a set,
fixed set of facts that someone has to learn and receive your blessing for.
(08:45):
Um,
the thing I think Josh and Jenny and I agreed is that when you're seeing patients every single day,
it will humble you,
you will hit a wall with someone that you thought was going to respond the way everybody else ever always did.
(09:09):
And then they don't,
and now they're counting on you to help them and you've got to figure it out or at least you're hopefully gonna try.
And that means more education it means research,
it means like spending some time with some books that have lots of footnotes and that's how you learn,
(09:31):
that's how you get better.
And I was thinking,
you know,
I think if I wanted to summarize how I feel,
I want to say to people who want to be really good at what they do,
who want to be really great at treating pain and mobility,
chronic and acute injury.
(09:53):
Maybe you wanna work with for a pro sports team,
maybe you wanna work in a pain clinic.
I would encourage you to not learn somebody else's method.
Take their course,
take their courses,
(10:14):
whatever it is,
learn what you like from their courses and then keep learning,
take other people's courses,
take whatever interests you because whatever interests you is what you're going to excel at.
It's like when I study foreign language,
(10:34):
you cannot learn a foreign language by watching videos that are of no interest to you.
It's,
it's how the brain works.
You need,
if you're gonna learn foreign language,
you need to learn from people speaking the language where you can comprehend at least 80% of it.
(10:55):
And it needs to be on a topic that you're really interested in that you would really watch in your own native language.
That is how you're going to learn.
And it's the same thing with a complicated subject like pain and the human body and how to help it.
(11:17):
You need to take an interest,
needs to be of interest to you.
So take other people's courses and follow what you're interested in and learn from those things from that person that help you to be better in the clinic.
(11:38):
I would say if you,
I think one of the things that has helped me the most to help other people has been that at a at an early phase in,
in my life as an acupuncturist,
people were asking me to teach um things about motor points and pain referral and things like that.
(12:01):
So if you study and learn,
as if you're going to be an educator,
you will absorb information and you'll find your weak spots very quickly.
As soon as you need to say,
with certainty that something is happening,
(12:23):
it could be as simple as,
as you want to tell somebody the origin and insertion and action of a muscle.
As soon as you have to tell that person who's trusting you,
you will have second thoughts about whether or not it's correct and you will look to be sure that you're correct and it's that action and that curiosity and the desire to be correct about those things that is going to ingrain it in you.
(12:58):
If you have to teach it,
you're going to be a lot more uh teachable because you're going to make sure that what you're saying is correct and not just something that you remembered that somebody else told you.
Um that's the other thing about just learning from other educators is if you just take what they said to you and you just say yes,
(13:22):
he said it and it's absolutely the fact,
you know,
like if you had to turn around and did teach that to somebody,
you might spend the time looking at the research to see if that statement is actually true.
And I think you'll find there are a lot of people out there giving you a lot of dogmatic things.
(13:46):
Some people saying you can't use electric stem or you can't use motor points on people with uh autoimmune conditions.
You can't use uh you know,
they're just,
they come up with these things,
OK?
If you,
if you listen to them,
you're just not gonna,
that some people might not even get help because you,
(14:08):
because that person told you you can't do that.
There are so many people who come out of acupuncture school who are afraid to put a negative and a positive lead on two sides of the spine because they've been told you can't do that,
you can't cross the midline.
And I mean,
(14:28):
there's so many things like that.
Um I mean,
you know,
let's not even go into the stuff you learn in TCM education like you have to have a cotton ball ready when you take the needle out or the chi will escape and then you will,
you will have depleted their chi or,
(14:49):
or um do you want to tonify this point or do you want to sedate this point and to tonify,
we do what we would do with a radio and we turn it to the right clockwise.
Like we're turning up the volume,
we're going to tonify and then we know we want to disperse.
(15:10):
So now we're turning down the radio knob and we're going to turn to the left and then somehow the body knows like what you were trying to accomplish and,
and that,
and that thing will happen.
We,
we learn all sorts of things like that.
If you don't question it,
you're probably not going to learn anything new.
(15:31):
You have to think about what that person said and ask yourself,
would I say that to somebody?
Would I tell somebody that that is absolute fact?
And if they doubt it,
how do I back it up?
Like,
know where that information came from and who came up with that idea and do other people of that level of expertise,
(15:53):
share that opinion because if it's only one person who has that idea,
the word charlatan comes to my mind,
it's,
you know,
when somebody has like secret knowledge that nobody else has and you need to pay them $5000 to learn it.
That,
I mean,
that's a Charlatan and we see them in every industry,
(16:18):
you see them in health and fitness,
you see them in alternative health,
you see them in our,
in our world of,
of um alternative medicine,
like acupuncture and other fields.
There's always somebody who's like trained with the master and the guru and now they have this like information that nobody else has and they're gonna teach it to you,
(16:42):
but you gotta pay them like $5000 um and bring them flowers and you know,
um we have those people in our world,
in the world of acupuncture and in the world of acupuncture where we land more on the side of science,
we still have people who are,
(17:03):
you know,
basically Charlatan's telling people that this is how it is and this is how you have to do it.
And if you don't do it that way,
then bad things will happen.
Um and you have to pay them to learn how to do it.
And then it turns out somebody else who took their course says,
oh,
that's what I learned from.
So and so that,
oh I learned that from one of these German uh guys,
(17:27):
uh electric stem guys from the mid 20th century,
he was studying this.
That's where that came from.
And then,
you know,
you'll find out all these people have like magical secret information,
somebody else actually developed it.
And you'll a lot of times acupuncturists fall prey to it because they haven't studied with all the scientific uh doctors,
(17:50):
they haven't studied the doctors who,
who came up with this information.
They learned from an acupuncturist and that acupuncturist told them something and they had no way to know that that was BS or,
or somebody else's information.
And so then,
because they have like a trademarked name on their system,
then you're paying them a lot of money to learn the magic,
(18:12):
the system and it,
it,
it's somebody else's information.
If it actually works,
somebody else also did it.
Ok?
Because the human body is like that,
it doesn't know,
it doesn't know what the practitioner is thinking,
the body just responds.
So,
you know,
if it's,
(18:33):
if it's valid,
somebody else has validated it somewhere.
Um So look for multiple sources to back up what you believe to be true.
So that,
you know,
it's true.
And then when you've studied like that,
you actually retain that information.
(18:53):
And then maybe one day you do want to become an educator,
you really will have the ability to help people to see things clearly because you've studied it from multiple sources.
You understand it well enough to explain it simply something Einstein said.
If you know something,
well,
you can explain it simply.
Um And that's the way complex things are.
(19:15):
If you understand complex concepts,
you can explain them to almost anybody and they can understand it,
you will find a way to make it make sense because you already understand the systems well enough to know how to simplify the exp explanation.
So,
um so that's quite a tangent.
(19:36):
But you know,
um you know,
Josh presented,
Josh Margolis was presenting in,
in Amsterdam uh about chronic pain.
And it,
and it just really highlighted um the,
the things that I,
that I'm encountering um personally in,
in my own treatment of chronic pain,
(19:57):
he was saying things where I was like,
yes,
yes,
absolutely.
Yes.
Things that I haven't heard a lot of people say treating chronic pain is so different from treating,
for instance,
athletes,
young athletes,
ok,
treating,
treating chronic pain is so different.
(20:20):
Um because of things like central sensitization and segmental sensitization,
um that makes all the difference,
learning how to find the affected segments,
learning how to treat those affected segments.
That's how,
how you're gonna move forward for somebody who has been in pain for so long that,
(20:40):
that,
that,
that you can't just muscle test your way to success with that person.
Um You can't just,
you can't just test their abductors and then treat what's weak and then they're going to get better if they've been in chronic pain,
the signaling is different.
They,
their segments are sensitized,
(21:02):
their brain is getting signals of pain constantly.
And that,
that's um that that's going to basically make the,
make the body think that um they're in pain even if there's no reason to be in to,
(21:23):
to think they're in pain.
I don't know if that makes sense.
Hopefully it does.
Um Sorry,
I sound distracted but I'm trying to mute notifications.
Uh Sorry about that um trying to mute the notifications on my laptop because they started coming in and I muted my microphone.
(21:49):
So I'm just gonna leave let the uh notifications bing if they come in there.
Sorry about that.
Um But the,
the point,
the point I wanted to make really is when it comes to your own study and education and wanting to get better results for your patients,
(22:09):
try approaching it as if you're going to teach it,
meaning go to the source,
go to the source material,
the doctors,
the research,
go to the scientific information,
not to the,
the local educators like me.
(22:32):
Mm um Don't you know,
II I think people should still,
I think people should still um um you know,
come to my conferences and,
and,
and listen to my podcast.
But that's because I'm pointing you in,
I'm pointing you to the sources.
OK?
I'm like,
I'm doing a lot of the heavy lifting and then once I find these great things that work and I tell you how they work and I show you how they work.
(22:57):
Then I tell you like,
how did I learn that?
Where did I learn it from?
Was it?
Which doctor was it from?
It wasn't from another acupuncturist?
OK.
That's just like a given.
OK.
Because that's always,
that's the game of telephone.
Um The,
the things that are successful with the human body are going to have research behind them and that's gonna be doctors,
(23:23):
you know,
researchers,
it's gonna be um,
pain management doctors.
It's gonna be people who are doing uh,
research work at the NIH.
It's not going to be an acupuncturist who has the final word.
We,
the acupuncturists who are doing that education are,
(23:44):
are your kind of your bridge to the source?
Ok.
So you come to a seminar,
I tell you about nerve entrapments that are affecting migraines.
I show you how I treat migraines that has been very successful for me.
And then I explained to you how the occipital nerves are entrapped by the trapezius,
(24:04):
a neurosis or the SCM.
I show you that I learned about it a lot from Doctor Andrea Trescott.
And this is her book about peripheral nerve entrapments.
And we learn about central sensitization from Doctor Jp Shaw.
And here is his research about central sensitization.
And this is why I use a high frequency stem for uh for that for the long term,
(24:31):
uh for,
you know,
neuro modulating um pain for somebody who's had migraines for so long that possibly they're centrally sensitized and why we're gonna use pens,
which,
which I learned about from,
you know,
Craig uh Doctor Craig.
And here's what he was doing and he learned about it because his wife had migraines and this is what worked.
(24:52):
So it's a,
it's a chain of information,
but there's,
there's doctors and there's pain research and there's a lot of things involved.
So when I teach something.
Uh Hopefully no one thinks it's the Hazel method or that I'm a Charlatan that hopefully they're,
(25:12):
they're listening to what I'm telling them and they're reading the ref references that I put in there and none of them are acupuncturist.
They're,
they're legit medical doctors giving you that information.
We as acupuncturists can be a great bridge to that information.
But like I said,
(25:33):
if you are going to be an educator,
you're gonna not take my word for it.
You're gonna say,
oh,
well,
that's what Rich Hazel said.
And this,
and he said,
Andrea Trescott said that.
Now I'm gonna see if somebody has peer reviewed her work and see what they say.
Um You could do that.
(25:53):
But,
but I,
I personally think if,
if what she says is working,
then I'm gonna do what she says and I'm not going to worry about it until my patients are getting better.
And then if they aren't getting better based on what Doctor Trescott has said,
now,
I need to actually look further and find somebody else who is treating the same condition in a different way from a different concept.
(26:14):
Um And then I'll tell you about that person and I'll tell you what they said.
Um And that's my role,
that's like if,
if I'm an educator in our world,
then my role is to find the good sources of information,
share those good sources and then simplify the complexity.
(26:34):
So that almost anybody can take what I said and apply it tomorrow on their patient with that problem and then get a good result and hopefully,
then have the curiosity to say,
OK,
that worked.
Why did it work?
I'm going to go read what Rich said,
(26:55):
I should read about that thing so that I can understand it and then I can explain it to my patients.
And then when they start sending other people who have this condition,
then they will understand why they're getting better.
And as the person who's treating them,
who is now looking at the source will know how to vary their treatment based on,
(27:20):
you know,
what they see from what they originally thought was the problem.
They'll know how to adjust the treatment because they'll have an understanding of the whole concept from having read the,
the source material.
And they,
they won't be relying on that person whose method they learned there.
(27:41):
I learned the Hazel method and,
and the Hazel method doesn't have a way to treat Xy and Z.
So,
you know,
so you're just gonna lather rinse and repeat and do,
do what you saw,
you know,
from the Hazel method and it's not getting better.
You know,
you've got,
you've got to be able to think like an educator and say,
(28:02):
well,
if I wanted to teach about this condition and my results suck right now,
what else do I need to learn so that my results will be better.
And what am I missing?
You know,
is it the fascia,
is it an autonomic,
(28:23):
you know,
an autonomic issue?
Is this,
is this,
um,
all nerve or is it something else?
Maybe it's active trigger points that are causing this problem?
Maybe this person is,
has some sort of ergonomic issue at work that keeps repeating this problem.
Maybe it's postural,
(28:44):
maybe,
you know,
maybe it's some day to day thing that is causing this problem.
Um,
you have to be able to think about all the ways that that could cause this person to not get better.
And there's always something you can learn from that you're always gonna find something that you didn't know.
(29:06):
Somebody else said.
Well,
it's this way.
And then,
you know,
and if you've studied,
if you've looked at a lot of these other methods,
sometimes you're gonna hear somebody's method and you're gonna say,
oh,
that's really complicated and interesting,
but it doesn't resonate with me.
So I'm not spending a lot of time learning that because even though they're claiming that really works,
(29:27):
I can't think like that,
that,
that doesn't even,
that doesn't make sense according to how I see things or according to the patients that I see.
Um,
so,
you know,
like you're,
you,
you have to find what resonates with you and how you see things.
(29:48):
And I was telling that to somebody,
you know,
somebody else when I was in Amsterdam,
I was,
when I was teaching somebody raise their hand and they were like,
are you using like,
um you know,
um what was he saying?
Something like muscle energy techniques?
Are you using like myofascial,
you know,
um stretch?
Are you doing stretching and,
(30:08):
and muscle um work?
And I said,
um honestly,
no,
because I have people get up in the middle of the treatment and see how they feel and then I have them get up at the end of the treatment and see how they feel.
And if they feel great,
then I don't feel like I need to add anything to that treatment,
(30:30):
they already feel great.
They're like,
they're like 100% better.
Like why am I adding some sort of thing?
Because somebody else said you have to or somebody else said you should or this is somebody else's technique and I learned how to do it and this is what I do.
But,
but what I,
my answer to him was,
I think you should do that.
(30:51):
If you love it,
you should do that.
And that's always going to be my answer.
Do what you love,
do what resonates with you and you know what?
You're probably making a whole lot more money than I am doing what you love to do because people probably love it.
(31:11):
You know,
I bet if I was doing some massage at the end,
people would just love it and they would want to come more often.
But it just doesn't resonate for me.
It's just not how I think and I don't want my treatments to be something I don't enjoy.
I don't want my treatments to be something that I feel like I'm throwing in there just to like,
(31:35):
you know,
make it like a spa visit or something.
That's just not me.
It's just not,
and I have to be true to what I,
what I do and how I do it.
And I shared a review,
somebody put on Google where for,
you know,
she basically came in for her first visit for migraines and she was having a migraine at the time and she'd been having multiple migraines per week,
(31:58):
constantly taking her medications for it.
And she'd been struggling for the past four years with like really regular migraines and,
and after her first visit,
then I went away to Amsterdam and I was gone for two weeks and then I came back and she had not had a headache.
And then by the,
you know,
fourth week after her treatment,
she had still not had a headache.
(32:19):
And then she left this really great Google review and in the review,
she tells people that the treatment was only 10 minutes and,
and that's absolutely true.
It's absolutely true because on the first visit for a migraine patient,
I don't over,
I don't want to overdo it.
I don't want to give them more headaches.
I don't want to really overdo how long they have stem.
(32:39):
Also.
I'm aware of the fact that she's nervous about the needles.
She was very nervous about the needles and,
and it was 10 minutes of electric stem and then some,
and I think the winning um part of the treatment was the trigger point release of her upper trapezius.
You know,
that front band of the upper trapezius that causes headaches because that was clearly the thing that was reproducing her migraines.
(33:08):
Um When I did my intake,
I was able to tell like this left upper trap was the main cause of her headache.
So I did those trigger points last and then I put some CBD on it and I told her,
you know,
I'm not going for perfection here.
I'm just going for like release enough of this that it'll feel better.
Um But probably the next time I see you,
(33:30):
we really get the rest of these trigger points and then I think you'll be a lot better off.
So you may have some headaches,
you may even have a headache after the treatment.
I'm not sure.
Um Anyway,
she didn't have any headaches for like a month.
And then she posted on Google that she had a 10 minute treatment.
So I was like,
oops,
that doesn't look really good.
It looks like it looks like she just got this little short treatment.
(33:53):
But,
you know,
a lot of um,
our one hour appointment time was spent talking and me explaining things and how this was gonna,
how,
how,
you know,
my methodology and my thinking about it and you know,
and then um the trigger point release,
we took some extra time is probably another 10 minutes doing the upper trap.
(34:14):
Uh trigger points because I was going very slowly and trying to,
you know,
make it as calm and easy for her as possible.
So,
um it's probably like really closer to 20 minutes of treatment time and me massaging some CBD into our upper tribes and things like that.
Ok.
So,
but it was funny because she,
(34:35):
she posted that I gave her a 10 minute,
the treatment was 10 minutes anyway.
Um,
that,
that is,
but that's legit.
That's like that is how a lot of my neck treatments are.
A lot of my neck treatments don't take very long and I'm,
I'm not gonna apologize and I'm not gonna throw in some extra modalities to make it last longer because somebody thinks that that I'm a massage therapist or a prostitute and that they're paying me for my time.
(35:04):
And in fact,
no,
you're,
you're not,
you're paying for my knowledge and my treatment and you're paying for a result and if you got the result and usually it,
it exceeds expectation,
then you got your money's worth,
you know.
Um,
I,
I treated a fireman before I left.
(35:26):
He is a retired fireman who has chronic pain,
mid back pain,
low back pain.
Couldn't stand up straight.
Those were in his intake can't walk straight straight straight up.
Um,
and I treated him right before I left for Amsterdam.
And I just saw him yesterday and it's been a couple of weeks and I said,
how are you doing?
And he gave me a big hug and he's so happy.
(35:46):
He said he's standing up straight.
He has,
he's like feeling great,
was able to like lift and carry things and his back is doing better and nobody can believe it.
And um and you know,
he um he was,
he's super excited about his um results and um what was the whole point of that?
(36:13):
So,
you know,
um I guess the whole point is the results that I get are good and I don't need to,
I don't need to add capping or um sometimes I do some iastm like soft tissue when it's necessary for fascia,
but I don't throw anything in um on top just to make it,
(36:36):
make the treatment last longer.
Like his follow up took about 20 minutes.
That was it.
And he felt great.
So if somebody feels great,
I've done what I need to do,
I've provided them.
Oh,
I was telling you that story because when he was paying um the follow up for first respond.
(36:57):
Well,
actually,
yeah,
the follow up for the first responders,
I give a discount to like police fire um nurses and doctors.
So um it was $90 And so I said,
ok,
so your,
your first responder rate is $90.
And then he said,
you know,
if you wanted to add two zeros to that,
it would still be worth it.
(37:19):
So he,
I feel like he valued what he got and I didn't have to throw any bells and whistles in,
you know,
with um extra massage or um cupping or whatever.
Um Other things people are adding to their treatment to make it feel like 45 minutes.
(37:41):
Um,
he spent about 20 minutes on the table and was super excited and um booked his follow up for next week.
And uh I said,
you know,
if you're feeling really good and you just want to go a couple of weeks and see how it goes.
He's like,
no,
no,
no,
you,
you told me 3 to 5,
let's do three.
I'm gonna come in next week.
I'm super excited,
(38:02):
whatever you wanna do,
we're gonna do.
I said,
ok,
so then I want you to get really picky with me.
Ok,
like in the next week,
all those things that you just kind of ignore because you just like push through and you're just used to it.
It's your normal.
I want you to start getting really picky about it.
Ok?
Like if there are things like that you just don't do because it hurts or it's a problem.
(38:28):
Those are the things we want to work on next week,
we're gonna get really picky because,
uh,
and he's like,
yeah,
I totally get it.
Like,
like,
like there are,
we all have those things that we,
we know when we come to the curb,
we step up with the right foot,
not the left because when we do with the left and the hip hurts or something like that.
So I'm like,
get really picky.
Ok,
(38:48):
that's what we're gonna,
that's what we're gonna work on next week.
So,
ok,
I have really talked a long time.
This is a long episode.
Sorry about that.
Um,
anyway,
I had some thoughts I had,
I had some things I wanted to get off my chest and I did and,
um,
hopefully it resonated with some of you and,
(39:11):
uh,
next episode will be a little bit more focused on a specific issue or specific type of issue.
Ok.
Have a good one.
Take care.
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