February 13, 2024 • 51 mins
Join former HGTV star Paige Rien and me on a candid journey of faith and sobriety. Paige shares her personal experiences, from skepticism to devout Catholic belief, and the crucial role AA and other 12-step recovery programs played in guiding her toward sobriety and, ultimately, God.
We discuss societal pressures on modern parents, especially mothers, and debunk the myth that alcohol is a necessary coping tool. We advocate for presence and authenticity in family life over the illusion of perfection.
By sharing our stories, we aim to illustrate the symbiotic relationship between sobriety and faith and encourage others to embark on this life-affirming journey.
Tune in for an insightful episode and a call to action toward a more purposeful, present way of living.
Learn more about Paige on her website: https://www.paigerien.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Catholic Subriety Podcast, the
go-to resource for women seekingto have a deeper understanding
of the role alcohol plays intheir lives, women who are
looking to drink less or not atall for any reason.
I am your host, christy Walker.
I'm a wife, mom and a JoyfieldCatholic, and I am the Catholic
(00:23):
Subriety Coach, and I am so gladyou're here.
My guest today is Paige Ryan.
Paige is a talented homedesigner, former HDTV star, an
author and a Catholic convert.
She's also a fellow woman inrecovery.
I have been so looking forwardto this conversation and I
(00:46):
honestly just want to jump rightin.
So, paige, thank you so muchfor being here.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Christy, I'm so delighted that we got to meet
and I've been looking forward tothis conversation too.
We took a lot of boxes beforewe even start talking, so I'm
excited yeah so I love researchand I did a lot of research on
you.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Just not a lot.
That sounds kind of creepy.
So I listened to a couple ofpodcasts.
I have your book revived andrenovated your newest book but I
understand you're working onanother one.
And then we kind of gotconnected on Instagram too.
(01:27):
My friend, amy Brooks, was likeI think she tagged me in one of
your posts and was like youshould connect with Paige, and I
was like sure, because,honestly, I've been sober for a
really long time and it's veryrare that I meet Catholic women
in recovery and I know there'stons of us out there.
So it sounds completelyridiculous, but I don't think
(01:49):
it's something that we talk alot about.
So I'm so excited for thisconversation.
When I was doing research, Isaw on your website something
that struck me, something thatyou said, and you said that God
has guided me a bit of a brokenmisfit on a really beautiful and
abundant journey.
(02:10):
So I would just love to startthere.
Can you tell us more about yourjourney?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Oh my gosh.
Well, is this a five hourpodcast?
Speaker 1 (02:19):
No, I know the cliff note version I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
It's the cliff note.
I mean the cliff note says thatfaith was strong several
generations ago in my family,but it wasn't there anymore.
A and B I just came out of thewomb of very highly sensitive,
emotional, spiritually hungryhuman being and so that
combination of it wasn't thereand I really needed something.
(02:45):
So I spent a lot of timeseeking and searching for all
kinds of things that to comfortmyself and just ended up at age
22 in multiple 12-step programs.
First, as we joke around inrecovery, I'm in the food and
the beverage program.
I cannot moderate with food oralcohol and there's other things
.
I only moderate with a lot ofboundaries and a lot of
spiritual work.
(03:06):
Very compulsive person andimpulsive and just somebody that
has had to really work, justreally work on myself, and so
those programs, that recovery,really led me to the Lord.
I can remember specifically notlooking for church, not looking
for, certainly not looking forthe Catholic Church and I just
my husband and I were, you know,we were in Europe going to
(03:28):
churches as we do, and I havethis.
I don't know why this storyjust came to me, but because it
rarely makes it into myconversion story, but I did have
this clear sense of the Lordsaying it has been me guiding
you in those church basements,in those 12-step meeting rooms,
in this journey to find recoverywhich, by the way, there's many
people that come to recoveryrooms and still don't find it.
So I feel like extraordinarilyfortunate to have, a survive, b
(03:49):
found recovery and three, youknow, being able to be willing
to stick with it because it is adaily reprieve.
So just meeting him, faceless,nameless, buildingless, and then
over time he really revealedhimself to me and even revealed
myself to myself, like I came toknow myself only through
sobriety and in getting better.
So that's a Clifnode's version,lots of other stuff, but I know
(04:10):
we'll get to it.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yeah, so that's great and I love hearing that story
because I have your book Revivedand Renovated.
It's a new one and it remindedme I actually highlighted a
passage in there when you weretalking about that you were
hungry for something, that youwere searching for something,
and it was God that you weretrying to fill that with.
(04:34):
You said in your book, in therecovered section, you said I
came to know God through myutter brokenness and due to
being a sensitive young personwho felt that deep emptiness.
I now know was a God-sized hole, and I tried to fill that hole
with many things food, alcohol,spending, relationships and
various dysfunctional behaviors.
(04:55):
And I think so many of us canrelate.
And we look around our worldtoday and I don't know about you
, I'm sure you see it in therooms and also just in the world
in general people are seekingfor something and they're just
trying to fill it with stuff,with creation, with things and
(05:17):
or numb.
And it always reminds me ofthis.
My favorite quote from John Paul, the second it's he said he
spoke it at World Youth Day, butI think it's so pertinent to
all of us.
He said it is Jesus, in fact,that you seek when you dream of
happiness.
He is waiting for you whennothing else satisfies you.
He is the beauty to which youare so attracted.
(05:39):
It is he who provoked you withthat thirst for fullness that
will not let you settle forcompromise, and I just see that
so much, and just that snippetof your story that you said,
like we're just trying to tofill that hole with everything.
And then, once we find it, wewake up and we're like, oh,
(06:02):
that's what I was missing,that's what I needed.
It doesn't make everythingperfect, but at least you have
the solution, and that gives youthe tools to turn to the
creator instead of creation, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
I think and I'm late to faith and sort of a biblical
idiot, and I have not atheologian, but from where I
stand, having had my journey,you can reduce the Gospels to we
were really, really hungry andGod fed us.
We were profoundly hungry and,by the way, for thousands of
years we looked to eat in manydifferent ways that didn't
satisfy, and then the Lord founda way to feed us.
(06:39):
And first of all, if you readscripture, there's so much about
looking to be satisfied, tryingto feed ourselves, trying to
find spiritual food, physicalfood, of course, spiritual food.
The Lord wants to feed us sobadly, and so I think that we
can really understand thatallegory of the spiritual food
being not just nourishing butessential to a good life, to
peace.
I think we see it in a totallydifferent way.
(07:01):
So many I just that came to momand you said that and it's sad
for some of us that just weren'tgiven it as children, you know.
I mean we just didn't have itand so we had to find it another
way, and that's really my story.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah Well, and some of us, like me, were given it
and rejected it in a way,because I'm a revert, and so
sometimes we don't realize thetreasure that we have, because
brokenness and other thingshappen, and so then we lose
trust and we rely on ourselves,and so even those of us who are
given it sometimes don't evenknow, we forget, like, how to
(07:36):
use it and have and to have thatchildlike faith.
And I am always in awe ofpeople who, like you, who
haven't really grown up with afaith yet, hunger for it and
thirst for it, and you approachit in this beautiful childlike
way and just accept it into your, your being and and just share
(07:58):
that with others, which I thinkis beautiful too, because that's
how we glorify God and that'swhat he's asking us to do really
.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I'm not sure why God made me this way, but I'm really
not ashamed of my story and Ikeep getting asked to share it
and I, you know, I think youknow there's parts of it that
are not very pleasant and kindof ugly, and it's ongoing.
I mean it's ongoing.
I you know I'm going to havetwo years of sobriety this July.
I have fallen out, fallen in,fallen away in my journey of
(08:26):
recovery many times and I thinkalso being cross addicted.
There's sometimes this balanceof different things.
This thing's going well, butI've kind of like playing
whack-a-mole sometimes in myrecovery and so I'm not ashamed
to say it because I feel likethat's, that's just my story and
I wish I could say I got a 30year chip, but I don't.
And furthermore, I think youknow, in defense of my parents,
they didn't have it to give me.
(08:47):
I was baptized, actually inOrthodox Church, but there's
just so many combinations offactors that made me say
absolutely not, I'm out, andit's a lot.
And I learned in recovery.
You know that this is on me andthat where what happens with
what I was given and all that Iwas provided for me and the
result, that's really on me andthen, just like it's on me now
(09:09):
to continue my recovery and tofind the resources I need.
So again, and I look back and Ido think of.
I think a lot about how to bepassed on faith, but recognizing
that I can do everything rightfor my own children, every
single thing, quote, unquoteright.
I can have every Novena anddevotional and Catholic piece of
art and we can never miss massand we can go to daily, and
still my children's path istheir own Exactly, and that's
(09:32):
the ultimate surrender that itis their own.
I'm still gonna probably try todo everything right, because I
had a real zest to pass it on.
And yet I also know they'llnever have my experience of
finding it in a very, very well.
No, they're not gonna have acrazy conversion story, because
they just won't.
I'll say but I mean like thisidea of having it be brand new
(09:52):
and coming to it in late in life.
But their journey is their ownand as parents we don't get to
direct that like a puppet.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
I know, unfortunately right.
We're like pouring all of thisin and trying to, like you said,
do all the right things.
And then I do a women's Biblestudy and I'll hear from these
women who have adult childrenwho have gone on their own ways,
and I'm like, oh my gosh,please stop telling me this
story.
I just want to hear, like andyou raise them, and then they
(10:20):
stayed Catholic and they marriedCatholic and then their
grandkids are, but it doesn't.
You know, it doesn't alwayswork that way.
Like you said it's, we just doour best and pray.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
So we're best and pray and understand that life is
long and that sometimes I meanjust even the testimony that you
know that it took me so longbut it still happened.
And somebody was saying someonereally must have been praying
for you with a lot of patients,people that are probably dead,
you know what I mean.
Like I don't think there's likethe living or even new to pray
for what I have now, but othergenerations they were just
(10:52):
prayers and I just think, gosh,I mean that's that's a hope
right, that in that, maybe notin our lifetime, but to not give
up, the devil would love for usto give up on prayer.
That's like that's such avictory for him.
Yeah, but that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Absolutely so you touched on your recovery a
little bit and your faithjourney and you said that you
were in 12 step programs.
I've heard you say that 12 stepprograms were actually your
church for a long time.
Can you explain that?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Sure.
So, as I mentioned before, Iwas baptized in the Orthodox
Church in Philadelphia and thenwhen I left home for college I
didn't even have any remoteinterest in finding it or
looking for it.
There was like a New OrthodoxChurch.
I had a connection to familyand cousins and I was like
really longing for that like ahome.
But there's something aboutsomething happened where
religion just became sounpalatable, wasn't interested.
(11:47):
There were some things thathappened where I was like I want
to get as far as I was like Igot to find that whatever that
familial tie I have findsomewhere else.
And so I was a spiritual seeker, was interested in sort of the
spiritual side of things.
But I had a very long new agechapter and surely they think
that was why I perhaps was opento over readers anonymous and
alcoholics anonymous.
When I went to my first meetingsand I heard the God, I thought,
(12:09):
oh my goodness, I can't.
It can't be the God I knew as achild.
It's got to be totallyrewritten and different and a
God made in my own image.
And I think that was acomfortable place for me to be.
And I always say that in 12step programs were given the
option to be anonymous and likewe feel better about that
because it's embarrassing andwhatever the truth is.
God's anonymous, the God is not,because God wants us so badly
(12:31):
to be whole that he has peoplethat I believe he.
I believe he created and wrotethe 12 steps.
I believe it's unbelievably notonly Christian but very
Catholic, because he wants somuch for people to be whole,
even people who will never sayhis name, never step into church
, never acknowledge him, andthat's okay with him, and I know
that as Catholics, like the waywe're revere and worship and
praise God is so important.
But I but I've seen with my owneyes people who just are never
(12:53):
going to ever get across thethreshold into church still
receive healing and receivewholeness, because that is what
happens first, that that's sothey're, they haven't even any
chance of going any further andthat's you know anyway.
So that, though it was my firstchurch and it was very loving
and welcoming and just this ideathat I had never the real, the
seat of the idea that the Godloves us is with us and even
(13:17):
he's a very mundane basic.
So of course he cares about theworst famine, poverty and
terrible tragedies and all thesekinds of things, but he
actually cares about you andwhat you put in your mouth, and
that was a profoundunderstanding that I had to take
on if I was going to believethat I was worth, you know,
getting a great job and praiseGod.
I saw and I believe that hecared and I believe that there
was a power to be accessed,greater than myself.
(13:38):
In my generation I think we'reprobably a similar age I was
taught to be the higher.
I am the higher power, I am thesuperpower.
I'm supposed to get a greatathletic career and I'm supposed
to get a great job.
And then I was supposed to geta great house in the suburbs and
it was all on my own, poweralone and actually.
But I was literally dyinginside.
And so this idea that I couldrest in, lean on and draw from a
(13:59):
higher power, greater thanmyself, that, to me, was my
first spiritual experience.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah, I think I was thinking about this the other
day too, because I was talkingto one of my coaches and we were
talking about, like myself,reliance and how it's taken me a
long time to trust.
But then I was like, of course,of course I was relying on
myself because that is what ourculture was saying, that's what
everyone is saying all the time,like you can figure it out,
(14:28):
grab yourself help book.
I got into new agey stuff tooand it was all about me, me, me.
How am I going to manipulatewhatever situation, and not like
necessarily in a bad way, buthow am I going to control things
in a way that I will makehappen what I want to happen?
And then, when things don'thappen that way, then it's like,
(14:49):
oh well, okay, I need to workharder, I need to do something
else.
And we are just constantlybombarded with that like self,
self, self, self journey, selfintrospection and everything.
And at least for me, and maybefor you to, it was when I was
(15:09):
finally and it took a long time,many, many, many years of
spiritual journey and mysobriety journey to finally let
go and then experience thatfreedom of like it's not on you,
it's not all up to you and itwas so freeing for me because
(15:30):
that was such a big weight thatI was, that I was carrying
around and I didn't even realizeit.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, yeah, no, it is .
I mean that you're right aboutthe focus on self, which is
totally the devil's work,because, whether it's the
positive or negative, theconstant focus on self makes you
literally impotent for so manyother things to serve others, to
be of service, to be part ofthe kingdom.
I mean, and I and yeah, I'm aperfect example of such a self
(15:57):
focused I mean I gosh, I, Ithere's so many examples I could
bring up but very, very selffocused my own, my own
achievement, my own glory, myown grades, my own path.
And then I feel like, whenyou're talking, I was thinking I
feel like we need to shut thatdown because the Lord actually
does have a plan for us, butit's probably not that.
It might be that, but we're notsupposed to, it's not up to us.
(16:18):
And so I really come up againstthis many times.
I didn't think I could havechildren.
I had a totally different ideafor my life.
I totally wanted to be a famousTV star, even in sub writing
and TV career, and I felt likethis is it was.
The Lord wants to be rich andfamous TV person and you know
that was not his plan.
And it's so interesting that Ifeel like I constantly renewing
(16:38):
of the mind, of kind of erasingor blurring out, like my blurry
background, blurring out thesevisions.
For what I think I need to makehappen and that is the crux of
the New Age religion is that youcan manipulate the material and
the spiritual world for yourown game.
Now you can't, sorry, yeah, youcan't, and also that's
dangerous territory and it's nota relationship.
(16:59):
It's, it's not a relationship.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
So yeah, yeah, and you hit on it too, like even as
a believer, like I've alwaysbelieved in God, it was just
like, well, maybe he isn't,maybe he can't do this for me,
or maybe he won't do it for me.
So I'm going to figure out away with all these crystals,
with all this mumbo jumbo, withthe horoscopes, whatever I the
(17:23):
feng shui, I'll make it happen,because he's probably super busy
and can't do that for me rightnow.
So that's fine, god, I'llfigure it out.
But you're right, I mean allthose closed doors, unanswered
prayers, the protection that Ilook back and realize like how
God was protecting me, like fromcertain things.
It was all put in place thereto get me where I am now and
(17:48):
where I'll be in the future.
It's just equipped me andencouraged me and and I see that
you know with you too and justhearing your story, I love it.
When I was reading your book too, you talked about how you were
not interested but you felt thatpursuing you, felt God, you
felt Jesus pursuing you,pursuing you and I I completely
(18:11):
relate to that, even in thosetimes when I was like kind of
shut the door to it and I waslike he's not interested in me.
I don't, you know, it's fine,I'm, I'm fine by myself, I'll
figure it out.
But that pursuing and pursuing,and then you gave an example of
like it wasn't like a burningbush, but it was like this ember
that was inside of you beingkindled and kindled.
(18:34):
And when I give talks andthings I say this all the time.
There was like this flicker ofa flame of the Holy Spirit
inside of me, and every time Iwould like turn and go that
direction.
It would get brighter, you know.
And then and that's kind ofwhat you are saying in here too,
can you?
Is there like a certain momentor anything, when you just felt
(18:56):
that fire just like burst?
And it has it all always beenlike this kind of slow rule.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
That's a great question.
I mean, part of my journey isI'm very stubborn, willful and
slow and so I feel like the Lordpulled out all the stops.
I mean I found myself atMagigoria randomly when I
considered myself pretty much anatheist, slash pagan.
I married a lapsed Catholicfrom a very devout family and
thank God he was lapsed, so hewould never would have made it.
You know, there's just so manymoments.
(19:25):
God put so many people in mylife.
I'm in so many different waysand so I felt like I think of it
as almost like a pilot lightthat was there and I could see
it, but I was very willing toignore it for a long time
because I had so much kind ofantagonism for the faith too.
I mean, I think back about likeI grew up in the generation
where we had the church lady onSNL and church people sucked,
(19:46):
like they were horriblyuninformed and unsophisticated.
And I went to Brown UniversityI'm an Ivy Leagueer.
Like I've got, I've worldly,like I've been around you know
what I mean Like step down, likeI'm not interested in your
small town church BS, and I hateto be that brutally odd, but
that is what I took on and feltI really did experience that,
(20:07):
this idea that church people aresmall and uneducated, and I
still battle with that, evensometimes in my own family, with
this idea that the church isanti-science, whatever Like that
.
It's been in the culture,reduced to something, just, it's
been reduced, reduced, reduced.
But the church has survived andalso being Catholic has been so
humbling, rcia has been sohumbling.
There's so much I don't know.
(20:27):
There's a profound amount thatI don't know and as it's
revealed to me, I'm more andmore like, oh my gosh, and that
pilot light is a full-blowncampfire now.
And even like the book you'rereferencing, revived and
Renovated, is actually my secondbook.
My first book I wrote when Iwas discerning, becoming
Catholic and it's nothing to dowith faith but everything to do
with faith, and we can get tothat later.
(20:48):
But this book I co-wrote with awoman named Victoria Durstock.
She's Baptist.
She had the Bible almostmemorized as we wrote the book
and I was like, oh my gosh, thisis an incredible tool that you
have that I want.
So writing that book with herencouraged me to read the Bible
through Bible in the earth.
My father, mike, for the firsttime in my life, at like 44 or
something like that.
I was old and I mean then I'mlike, oh my God.
(21:10):
And so when you what you evensaid, when did the light really
go off?
When I read the Bible for thefirst time, I feel like it was
like campfire.
It was like, oh my gosh,there's so much here, by the way
, ps.
So much here about sobriety,abstinence and recovery.
Yeah, so much.
And I'm actually reading theBible again and now I'm keeping
a journal about all the thingsrelated to sobriety and recovery
, because there's so much andI'm still deep in the early Old
(21:33):
Testament and there's so much.
So I feel like that's that.
You know, the Lord had to bepatient and be like okay, first
just the church a little bit foryears, then Catholic school a
little bit, then our CIA, youknow, then we'll lay in
scripture with this messengerI'm sending, you know.
So anyway, I'm kind of likeLord, what's next, like what
(21:53):
scales are left that you'regonna take from my eyes and
what's next.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Well, I've been Catholic for 50 years and I'm
still learning so many thingsand like on that journey and I
too am right where you are whereit's like, oh my goodness,
there's so much more to learnand I feel so inadequate in some
ways.
And then I look back at myjourney and think, but look at
how far I've come and how much Iknow, and I love that you
(22:19):
brought up scripture First ofall.
I love your book because I'mnot a great reader, like an avid
reader, but it's done in.
I feel like I'm having coffeewith the two of you.
I think you're just having thisbeautiful conversation and I
just loved it and it's reallyeasy to read.
So somebody is looking for aneasy read that is going to just
(22:40):
oh, it's just so fulfilling andbeautiful to read.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
That's kind of you and I appreciate that because I
have a narrative that that bookdidn't do that well or that it's
like that I didn't do a goodjob promoting it, because as an
author, you're supposed topromote your books.
I haven't promoted either ofthem very well at all and I love
the book, and I love the bookof Revived and Renovated.
I mean, I wanted to.
I feel like I told the Lord Iwant to write a book about my
two favorite loves the home andfaith, and how they've
intersected in my life.
(23:03):
And Victoria is such anincredible person and she came
up with this idea that we revivethe home the Lord provides us.
We renovate the home the Lordrenovates us, and it's such a
perfect allegory in so many ways.
Some people just need a littlepaint job.
Some people just need like somenew lighting fixtures.
Some people need to be takendown to the studs, and I
(23:23):
consider myself in a bit in thatcategory and anyway.
So I appreciate your words onthat.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yeah, yeah, I love that you brought up scripture
because I can tell you that,like my spiritual journey was
pretty slow also and then it gotmore involved when we sent our
sons to Catholic school or twins.
But it wasn't until Ico-coordinated a Bible study at
my parish and we're into ourseventh year of that Bible study
(23:53):
and I will tell you the Bibleis not just like this old, dusty
book that doesn't apply to ourlives, like you were saying.
It is so applicable to ourlives in all areas and I love
that you're taking notes andwriting down.
Maybe that'll be another bookwhere you're like writing down
and doing the scripture, withhow it relates to sobriety and
(24:17):
recovery, because I think somany times, like you were saying
, even you know with your IvyLeague education and all of
these things, people today arealmost afraid to believe because
they don't wanna be seen as,like you were saying, uneducated
or ignorant or just believingfor the sake of believing which,
(24:38):
by the way, I did for a longtime.
People would say, well, why doCatholics do this?
I'm like I don't know, we justdo it.
But really there's a reason forall of it and that's been the
most beautiful journey isfiguring that out, and it's the
same for scripture.
God doesn't just say thesethings, he's not just talking to
the Israelites, he's not justyou know, he's speaking into our
(25:00):
lives today.
This is a love letter for allof us and yeah, and I love it,
and yeah, I hope you write abook about that too.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I might.
I actually I feel like theLord's like write that down,
because there's just so much Imean you can't get.
I said this on Instagram theother day.
I think people got irritated,but that's okay.
You can't get 10 chapters intoGenesis without hearing how
alcohol and getting drunk hasruined families for generations
and maybe not ruined but setpath brokenness into generations
(25:31):
.
I mean, you're talking aboutNoah who literally got drunk the
first thing he did when he cameback and then I think it was a
lot.
You know this kind of, and thensort of the progeny or the
offspring of these sort ofdrunkenness encounters or
whatever is like it has, youknow the Lord doesn't come out
and say that was wrong.
You know lots.
Daughters shouldn't have hadincest with their drunken dad.
(25:52):
You know what I mean.
But then if you look at sort oflike that they founded a land
that has a name that has, youknow just Moab.
You know if there's, we canread the tea leaves or read the
after effects of some of thesechoices and I just I think that
we, I mean like gosh, I meanit's kind of like if you know,
you know, you think I mean youdevelop a reputation for being
(26:13):
like anti-drinking and anti-funOkay fine, I'm really not, but I
am thinking about the damagethat it brings to families.
That, frankly, I wish I knew.
Well, I wish I knew becausewhat I knew was that if you're
grown up and sophisticated, youdrank, you drank a lot and you
knew a lot about drinking andyou went out a lot and you're
really social and that made youcool and that made you
interesting and that's howyou're gonna meet other
interesting, cool people andthat was my theology, I mean
(26:38):
that was it you know, and itfeels really good and I get to
be this person and that's for me.
It was.
I'm this person who I reallyliked being when I'm drunk.
Now, unfortunately, I went waybeyond that to be somebody that
nobody liked, but the drunk pageI just really liked her and
then also have the duality ofthe person.
The page who went to food issomebody who wasn't with people,
so that was like it was kind oflike both sides to two
(27:01):
different kinds of addictions.
But yeah, no, the scripture hasbeen, oh my gosh, so edifying
and I don't know where thewillingness to read the Bible
came from because, as I said, Ican count decades where I didn't
ever think of it or open one orever consider that it could
have value.
And now I can't go a daywithout opening it.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
I don't want to you know, mm-hmm, yeah, I don't
either.
It's so applicable.
And Father Mike also makes itvery easy to understand, cause
you can read the Bible and belike what the heck did I just
read?
What does that even mean?
So that's where Bible in theYear has been very helpful for
me as well, cause even doingBible study for a long time,
(27:41):
there's still things that arejust like I don't get that, and
I love how he notes so manytimes Like it's just full of
brokenness, like we don't haveto shy away from it, we don't
have to be like.
You know, this is such a happyending Cinderella story, like I
mean, we do have a very happyending, but there's still a lot
going on.
It hasn't ended, cause Jesus iscoming back, but we can see the
(28:06):
redemption, but we also see thestruggle and how God never gave
up on his people and he's nevergonna give up on us.
So, and he kept just givingthem chances, just like he gives
us chance after chance afterchance.
So he'll never, he'll nevergive up on us, and I think
that's so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I think also we're meant to see ourselves.
I mean, I really do.
We're meant to see ourselves inall these characters.
And the first time I didn'treally get that cause I was just
trying to keep up and like tryto learn it.
But the second time I do seemyself.
I actually see myself in Faro,an exodus.
I don't know if this makes anysense, but Faro gets sent the
plagues and like all the plaguesare like this stinks, but okay,
I'm willing to live with itbecause I don't want to give in.
(28:47):
And then he, the God, sensemore and more and bigger plagues
, and to me that's a lot aboutmy life before recovery.
I'm willing to live with likelosing a job and like
humiliating myself and losing mywallet and losing my dignity
and having financialcomplications, and I'm willing
to live with a lot of problemsthat came until I wasn't, you
know, and so for me I anyway.
I think in scripture there's somany chances to identify and if
(29:09):
you can't keep reading you'llfind somebody.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, well, and when you were just talking about that
does make sense.
The Faro analogy makes senseBecause then I think about, like
, whether it was the frogs orwhatever, and Moses is like well
, when do you want them out?
And he's like tomorrow.
Like he doesn't say immediately, he's like tomorrow.
And it kind of reminds me ofthat quote from St Augustine
Lord, make me chase, but not yet.
So we're all like we have thatwillingness and until we're
(29:36):
really willing, we're gonnastill kind of like struggle with
it and muddle through, but then, when we're willing, we finally
tell God like this is, I'mready.
It doesn't mean that we won'tslip and we won't fall, but we
will have an awareness, we willlearn from it and we can move
forward hopefully, hopefullyfrom there, cause I always say
(29:59):
it's like a learning thing, evenwith my clients.
I'm like you know what, if youhave a slip, if you break
commitment to yourself orwhatever, okay, yeah, that's a
bummer and that sucks, but it'snot for nothing, because you
will not drink the same way youdid before that, because you
just have, like this, extraawareness.
(30:20):
So even those missteps, even ifsomebody just totally goes off
the wagon, it's, they still havesome awareness to it.
They still have those toolsthat they built up and that they
have in their toolbox.
They just have to dust it offand open it up and take them out
again, but it's never fornothing and it can all be
(30:42):
redeemed.
So you've shared so much aboutyour faith and I love that.
But now I'd like to talk alittle bit about your design,
such your you know, a designexpert and everything.
And I will tell you, when myhusband and I were first married
, nobody would walk into ourhome and even know that we were
(31:02):
Christians.
Like there was, like maybe adusty Bible on the bookshelf
somewhere, somewhere, but nobodywould have mistaken us for
Christians when they walked intoour home.
However, over the years I meanyou can see in my office,
because we have camera our wholehome and we didn't do it
intentionally, it's been anorganic process, if you will, of
just placing holy remindersaround ourselves constantly, and
(31:27):
so now people can't help it.
When they come into our homethey're like you, must they know
that we're not just Christian,we're actually Catholic, because
there's a lot of things there.
But I really appreciate yourapproach because I watched a ton
of HGTV, especially when welived in our little first home,
vixar Upper Home, and I wastrying to make something out of
(31:52):
whatever it was and I watched aton of it.
But following you on Instagramand things, I noticed that it's
not just about that perfectaesthetic, it's not just about
having everything updated andperfect.
It's about breathing life intoit and making your home a place
(32:16):
of comfort in whatever seasonyour family is in, and that just
I think that's so beautiful andit resonates strongly with me.
And I'm just wondering is thatsomething that has always been
that way for you?
Has your Catholic faith playeda role in the way that you think
(32:37):
about design now?
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Well, I would say both my recovery and my
conversion have really changedthe way I think about the home.
I grew up knowing the home wasimportant, because my parents,
our home, was very important.
I think I heard a lot about howthey grew up.
My dad grew up in a row house.
My mom grew up in a little teenhouse with one bedroom and
three daughters and they reallywant bigger and better.
And our home was important andwhat they put into it.
(33:02):
They're very, very careful.
We had years or we had emptyrooms so my parents saved up for
.
So I got the message that thehome was important and I got the
message also which I think is avery American message that you
are the home Like when peoplecome over.
That's how well you've done inlife, that's what you have to
say, that's what your identityis, is like whatever you got.
(33:23):
Do you have nice furniture ornot?
Do you have what do you have?
And I feel like in myconversion or sorry, in my
recovery I learned a differentresonance, a different purpose
of the home, because betweenmeetings I was either at work or
I was at home.
But even if I worked 12 hours aday, I could do a lot of damage
at home If I with alcohol andfood and spending and God only
(33:44):
knows what in my house and Iunderstood the home just had a
different resonance.
It needed to be literally likea nurturing nest where I was
going to read 12-step literature, learn how to pray, which I had
never done before.
Learn how to meditate, whichI'd never done before, which is
like a cornerstone of 12th ofrecovery is prayer and
meditation, with not a lot ofhandbook.
Right Like so.
I'm literally learning this inthat era.
(34:05):
I'm calling people on the phone.
All my memories of that are inactually my apartment at the
time and I had done a lot ofdamage in that apartment, right
Like that's.
In that apartment I had learnedthat I could control my food by
drinking a pitcher of gin andtonic, and so when I was like
beyond that and trying to getbeyond that, I learned the home
was now a place to learn to prayand meditate.
So what did it have to looklike and feel like to allow a
(34:27):
total different shift, differentthings to happen there, and I
carry that with me.
I just think in our culturewe're so confused about what the
home is for what we're tryingto do.
I'm a huge advocate for beauty,yes, and comfort, yes, but we
also have to remember the househas so many objectives.
The house has a place ofministry, of connection, of
building relationship, ofteaching, of learning obedience,
(34:49):
of discipleship, learningmanners, just learning to care
for each other, learning to beof service, learning to open the
doors and be hospitable, andthere's so many things the house
I think is could do, can do,you could say, should do.
But if we're really, reallyfocused on just making it real
pretty number one, we're gonnaget annoyed when it gets used
for other things.
Where interior design has madefamily life hard.
The narrative is the familylife makes interior design hard.
(35:12):
That's not true.
Interior design has made familylife hard because interior
design says it's best if it goesunused and it stays pristine
and it's beautiful.
Well, that's not what happenswhen you have a family.
That's not what happens whenyou entertain, you open your
doors.
That's not what happens whenyou say yes to a dog.
That's not what happens whenyou're taking care of an elderly
parent and now they're in theliving room.
That's not what happens.
(35:33):
It doesn't look like that, andso I get very hot under collar
about this because I think thatinterior design magazines are
trying to project a reality thatisn't true for most of us.
And I've known people whomight've shifted their family
life to be in a line with ahousehold that never gets dirty
and doesn't, you know, and maybeit had less kids, I don't know.
(35:54):
Maybe they just have adifferent, totally lifestyle
because the place and the thingshave been elevated to be so, so
important.
So I don't know if thatanswered the questions, but you
did ask me about the faith.
One thing I'll add to that longharangue, and I'm sorry, is
that the discussion of thedomestic church.
I mean, in our Catholic faithwe hear all the time mass is
important, you know, confessionis important, the sacraments
(36:16):
that do happen in the church areimportant, but everything else
happens in the domestic church,that's a lot it's a lot of time,
it's a lot of responsibility.
I can tell you, going toCatholic school that's great.
I love our Catholic school.
It's that's like I'm doing ajob.
It's our home and our parentingwhich fills in the 90% that
Catholic school doesn't do andwe have a great Catholic school.
(36:37):
But I feel like the domesticchurch has a big, big task and I
have heard that so much andseen it in our Catholic
community and even with myin-laws too, like the role the
home plays, so that just takes adifferent resonance and it just
tweaked and altered my views ofthe home, just being that the
home beauty is so important.
I don't know, I just throw alot at you, christy, so I'm
(36:58):
sorry.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
No, that all completely made sense, and I
agree.
Also, the home is where we doeverything all the good, all the
hard, all the tears happen,laughing happens, sadness
happens, life happens, deathhappens.
The home is just that place oflife and living, and so I love
(37:23):
that you brought all that up.
When you were talking, though,something came into my mind.
You were talking about thedesign perspective, and if
you're looking at these shows,or you're looking at magazines
and all these perfectly curatedrooms that sometimes I joke with
my family when people arecoming over, I'm like, don't
make it look like we live here,get your socks off the couch.
(37:46):
But I think if we look atalcohol marketing, right, it
gives us this false perspectivewe are funnier, we can have more
fun.
Our friends will think that weare more clever, or whatever it
is every vacation will be justthat much more enjoyable.
(38:08):
And it's this false sense ofliving, because we're numbing
the good with the bad, right.
So.
But alcohol commercials won'ttell you that, Nobody tells you
that.
And so the women that I workwith, even though I'm a
recovering alcoholic and Iidentify myself as that and I
(38:30):
have no problem with saying thatloud and proud, like I said it
for a long time and it doesn'tbother me at all, but many of
the women that I work with thatGod placed on my heart are those
women that are kind of in themiddle, like they're noticing
it's causing chaos but it's notto a problem yet.
And it just makes me so madwhen I see like marketing and
(38:55):
wine glasses and sweatshirts andmemes that are targeting us,
saying like you will have thisbeautiful life and your home
will be cleaner and your kidswill be nicer and your husband
will love you more if you havealcohol, which sounds ridiculous
(39:16):
.
But if you look at themarketing and TV and commercials
and movies, that is exactlywhat it's saying.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Oh, I mean 100% it's.
And I think that an even moredangerous message is that this
is how you have to get throughmotherhood Right.
The idea, I think when you'reyoung it's like everybody's
drinking everybody has a,everybody has their drink, that
they like.
You have to have something youlike, but it is your drink right
, and I had mine when I was adirty martini and I made
incredible life mistakes undermany of those.
(39:45):
But now, as a mother, themessage is like it's you, you
won't, you won't get through itwithout drinking wine after they
go to bed or maybe even beforethey go to bed.
And it's amazing how quicklyyou slip before after bed to
before they go to bed,especially when they go to bed
later, like how I watch womensay, well, now, I mean it's four
or five o'clock and it's niceoutside, I can have a glass of
Pinot Grigio and I, whatever, Idon't know, and I feel like it's
(40:08):
, it's, it's.
It's this idea that women areweak.
It makes me so mad.
The women are weak.
That motherhood is really hard.
Nobody told you about this.
It stinks, it's incredible,it's very hard.
Do we want a less hard version?
Do we want to skip part of thehard, like I mean on a
fundamental human level.
I guess yeah we want, we want toskip it, but I think there's
always a cost to that.
Like, how could we be so naiveto think that the easier, softer
(40:31):
way is really easier and softer?
It's not.
You know, like I don't neverforget, somebody said to me if
you go home and drink tonight,you will miss something you were
meant to know or have orexperience or feel or see.
Tonight you'll miss it.
Every night contains that, bythe way, every night of our
existence, our gift on our ifyou can possibly have eaten
binge on junk food tonight,you'll miss something You're
(40:53):
meant to see or know or feel, orremember we're here.
You're a miss it.
So if we think about each dayof our lives like that, like, is
it worth it?
Is it worth doing that?
For every night Are kids,childhood, so you can get
through cranky toddlers and youknow the chaos of having babies
or whatever.
Or or mouthy teenagers like, ohmy gosh, why did I ever
complain about toddlers?
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Cause teens are a whole another.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
I agree, well, and and when you were saying that
too, it's we are almostresenting, I see this, this
resentment towards kids, likethere'll be this thing, like,
well, my kids are the reasonthat I drink, or something like
that, and that just breaks myheart and and I don't think that
it comes from a place thatwomen really think that I think
(41:35):
that they maybe they think it'sfunny or maybe it gives them
some kind of connection orcommunity or solidarity.
I don't know what it is,because that wasn't something
that I dealt with, but I thinktoo, like with design, of making
your house, your home,beautiful and doing all these
things and making it perfect,and then toddlers come in and
(41:57):
they hit the walls with theirtoys or there's things scattered
around their clothes.
You can resent that and resentthem in a way, because you're
like, I just spent all this timedoing this, this and this, and
now it's all messed up, and thisis why we can't have nice
things, and that's same withalcohol.
It's like, well, I have todrink to cope.
(42:18):
I have to drink because they'reso loud, I have to drink for
all of this, and so I thinkthat's what I love about what
you were saying about the homeand enjoying it, and there's
such a correlation between thatperfectionist facade that we try
to put on, whether that'smaking our homes perfect, which
is great, by the way.
Take pride in your home, make ita beautiful place that you love
(42:41):
being in and spending time inand enjoying it with your family
, but it needs to be lived intoo and experienced.
We need to experience all thoserooms, experience all the
things, because we don't wannalook back and I mean there's
enough mom guilt, there's enough, and I think of it too, like
(43:02):
maybe I'm on my phone and my 10year old is saying something to
me and I only catch half of it,but I've totally tuned out.
And when you do that withalcohol and you do it often like
you were saying you're justyou're missing out on something
that you were meant to see orhear or experience.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Yeah, I don't think I've ever made that correlation,
this idea that the alcoholadvertising portrays life in a
certain way and then, like thesort of the home media portrays
life and a lifeless life.
Frankly, I mean I was justthinking that I gotta stop
taking empty videos and picturesof my home because it's such a
lie.
There's always people here butfor some reason, I mean, they're
not here during the school day.
There's a lot of times when Itake the video but and they're
(43:44):
also private, so they don'talways wanna be in the video.
But it's a lie to take videowhen there's no people in it,
but we're so used to it and thatshowcases furniture better and
that showcases spaces better andall that kind of stuff.
And yeah, and we're gonna.
Each parent, you will be given achance where your child wants
your child ruined somethingbecause they don't know about
value, they don't know aboutgoods, they don't know about
(44:05):
cost, they don't know anythingthat you're worried about.
If someone could tell, I wish Icould go back to myself and say
your kids don't know anything.
So don't get mad at them forputting Sharpie on the chair
because they don't know aboutchairs.
They don't know anything.
There's no, they don'tunderstand.
That has to all be communicatedin.
By the way, in anger it doesn'tget communicated.
It's something totallydifferent happens in anger and
all of us are given a chance totell our kids that they matter
(44:25):
more than the stuff.
You're gonna be given thechance over and over and over
again.
And I mean, please understand.
It's a lasting impact when yourchild learns that this stuff's
more important.
And so it recalls the storywhen my son was two.
I had bought this like doublewhite fur chair.
I don't even know what I wasthinking, but it was in their
bedroom when I was thinking it'sreally soft and cuddly and like
(44:47):
I'm like an at-home mom, likeI'm at my full strength in
motherhood in the snugly at home, like I'm not good at I don't
have to play grounds.
But I was like read aloud, sitin a chair.
I bought this big double whitefur chair and we would sit in it
at night and read, and I thinkI had like a four or two and a
zero and we could all fit.
And then one day I turned aroundand my two year old or three
(45:08):
year old he was between two hehad taken a black Sharpie on it
and drawn something on it andwhat came out of my mouth?
What came out of my mouth washellfire.
Okay, it was anger, rage.
And I can still in my mind seeCrystal clear his sweet little
tiny face and looking back at melike, oh my God, like wow.
(45:29):
And the shame I had immediatelyand I feel like it was a.
The Lord allowed thisunpleasant experience that I had
actually had to get rid of thechair because it was so painful.
I had such profound regret andpain at having literally in my
mind who cares about it?
It wasn't inexpensive chair, itwasn't in the living room,
wasn't ruined forever, but theidea that in my mind, that the
(45:52):
stuff had really been elevatedin my mind and keeping the stuff
pristine and I had to learnthat lesson that he is more
important Number one, he doesn'tunderstand.
Number two, he's more important.
And that our job is to teachour kids not to sharpie the
furniture, that we take care ofour things.
We are stewards of our goods butthat they are more important
and we have to do that over time.
And we're doing that, by theway, as they ruin the stuff.
(46:13):
That is it.
If you're gonna live in yourhome and really use it, there
are gonna stain it.
That same kid took a knife toour very expensive Crate and
Barrel sectional and put a kniferight in it.
We still have the knife hole.
When he was pretending to be aninja probably a four or five
and it was like, thank God I hadthat sharpie lesson.
And, by the way, there's been somany other indications where I
could say I don't love it.
(46:34):
I keep a blanket on the hole.
Now I keep a throw rug onbecause I would still have the
sectional.
I don't love it.
But you are more important thanthe things and there's a way,
and even sometimes I can get inarguing with people that say
that kids need to understand.
They need to understand and useit.
So how do we convey that you'remore important and we have to
take care of our stuff and we'regonna use our stuff.
And some things have happenedout of an accident where I've
(46:57):
ruined stuff.
I mean there's things that I'vedone.
We're human and when you reallyuse your stuff, you're gonna
make mistakes and this stuff isgonna get used.
And this whole idea that weneed to keep it pristine is from
real estate.
If you're not selling yourhouse, use your stuff.
Use your stuff Exactly, exactly.
Live in your home.
When you sell, you may have tomake it all look brand new, but
if you're not selling, where arewe in that mode?
But I think that's happened toreal estate.
(47:19):
I really do.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Yeah, I would agree.
And social media right Cause alot of times, like you were
saying, we showcase the prettyparts of it that are uncluttered
and you can't see the diningroom table, maybe that has a few
papers or whatever on it, oryou can't see that.
My twins used to come out andjust like dump their toys in our
(47:42):
very small living room and thenI would clean them up when they
took their nap and then theywould come out and dump them out
again, and it was just a thingthat we did.
But people don't usuallytypically take pictures of
living rooms like that, butthose are some of my most
cherished pictures when I lookback at those I took tons of
(48:03):
pictures and it will be liketheir toys scattered all over
and the cat, and I just love itbecause it reminds me of those
really super fun, sweet moments.
And maybe they weren't Facebookworthy Instagram wasn't a thing
at the time.
Maybe they weren't Facebookworthy at that time, but to me
they're so beautiful.
(48:24):
Well, I know that you probablyhave other things to do, but I
have so enjoyed our conversationand I would just love it if you
would share where people canfind you, maybe what's next for
you what you have in the worksand how people can connect with
you.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
Sure, yeah.
So, as I said, revive yourRenovated was my second book
that I wrote with Victoria,really putting the faith in the
home together with scripture andthen.
But my first book is calledLove the House You're In and
that's really a lot about thephilosophies we've talked about
today that you belong in yourown home and it's not gonna look
like everybody else and it'skind of a journey of
self-reflection and it reallycame about because I realized
(49:03):
that homes had been sanitized offaith, of journey, of
personality, so that we couldall look the same.
And that doesn't, that doesn't,that doesn't jive with me.
I'm also I spend too much timeon Instagram as a compulsive
person.
I'm well aware I spend too muchtime on social media, but I am
at Page Ryan and Ryan hasspelled R-I-E-N and I get us to
do talks every once and now inthe end, and they're very much
(49:24):
like we talked today aboutrecovery, faith, conversion in
the home and how it all wraps uptogether.
So, yeah, I love to hear frompeople.
I love to hear about thesesynchronicities.
I'm not for everybody.
I mean there's a lot of peoplethat are like, not interested.
I want my faith over here and Iwant my home over here.
I just I see it all wrapped upand I think to me every day
(49:45):
includes all of those things.
Oh yeah.
So yeah, I've been delighted totalk to you.
I mean, did you, is there anychance you played sports?
Speaker 1 (49:54):
I played basketball until high school, and then I
did dance for my whole life.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Okay, well because I have this like Catholic recovery
, sports.
Anyway, sometimes when you havelike I was an athlete, there's
just like people that have allthis synchronicity or these
things in common and it's like,wow, there's so many worlds
opened up.
So, yeah, I played basketball.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
So next time we'll talk about that.
Yes, yeah, for sure, and I'm asports mom, so I love being.
I don't know if your kids areinvolved in sports, but I love
being a mom with kids in sports.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
So that's fun, oh amen.
Yes, for fun for me, and I'm soglad I'm sober for that,
because that's what I want to do.
Yes, yes indeed.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Well, thank you so much, Paige, for being here, and
I can't wait to talk to youagain.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
Amen Christy, thank you.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Well, that does it for this episode of the Catholic
sobriety podcast.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeand I would invite you to share
it with a friend, who mightalso get value from it as well,
and make sure you subscribe soyou don't miss a thing.
I am the Catholic sobrietycoach, and if you would like to
(51:04):
learn how to work with me orlearn more about the coaching
that I offer, visit my website,thecatholicsobrietycoachcom.
Follow me on Instagram at theCatholic sobriety coach.
I look forward to speaking toyou next time, and remember I am
(51:25):
here for you, I am praying foryou, you are not alone.
Welcome to the Catholic Subriety Podcast, the
go-to resource for women seekingto have a deeper understanding
of the role alcohol plays intheir lives, women who are
looking to drink less or not atall for any reason.
I am your host, christy Walker.
I'm a wife, mom and a JoyfieldCatholic, and I am the Catholic
(00:23):
Subriety Coach, and I am so gladyou're here.
My guest today is Paige Ryan.
Paige is a talented homedesigner, former HDTV star, an
author and a Catholic convert.
She's also a fellow woman inrecovery.
I have been so looking forwardto this conversation and I
(00:46):
honestly just want to jump rightin.
So, paige, thank you so muchfor being here.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Christy, I'm so delighted that we got to meet
and I've been looking forward tothis conversation too.
We took a lot of boxes beforewe even start talking, so I'm
excited yeah so I love researchand I did a lot of research on
you.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Just not a lot.
That sounds kind of creepy.
So I listened to a couple ofpodcasts.
I have your book revived andrenovated your newest book but I
understand you're working onanother one.
And then we kind of gotconnected on Instagram too.
(01:27):
My friend, amy Brooks, was likeI think she tagged me in one of
your posts and was like youshould connect with Paige, and I
was like sure, because,honestly, I've been sober for a
really long time and it's veryrare that I meet Catholic women
in recovery and I know there'stons of us out there.
So it sounds completelyridiculous, but I don't think
(01:49):
it's something that we talk alot about.
So I'm so excited for thisconversation.
When I was doing research, Isaw on your website something
that struck me, something thatyou said, and you said that God
has guided me a bit of a brokenmisfit on a really beautiful and
abundant journey.
(02:10):
So I would just love to startthere.
Can you tell us more about yourjourney?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Oh my gosh.
Well, is this a five hourpodcast?
Speaker 1 (02:19):
No, I know the cliff note version I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
It's the cliff note.
I mean the cliff note says thatfaith was strong several
generations ago in my family,but it wasn't there anymore.
A and B I just came out of thewomb of very highly sensitive,
emotional, spiritually hungryhuman being and so that
combination of it wasn't thereand I really needed something.
(02:45):
So I spent a lot of timeseeking and searching for all
kinds of things that to comfortmyself and just ended up at age
22 in multiple 12-step programs.
First, as we joke around inrecovery, I'm in the food and
the beverage program.
I cannot moderate with food oralcohol and there's other things
.
I only moderate with a lot ofboundaries and a lot of
spiritual work.
(03:06):
Very compulsive person andimpulsive and just somebody that
has had to really work, justreally work on myself, and so
those programs, that recovery,really led me to the Lord.
I can remember specifically notlooking for church, not looking
for, certainly not looking forthe Catholic Church and I just
my husband and I were, you know,we were in Europe going to
(03:28):
churches as we do, and I havethis.
I don't know why this storyjust came to me, but because it
rarely makes it into myconversion story, but I did have
this clear sense of the Lordsaying it has been me guiding
you in those church basements,in those 12-step meeting rooms,
in this journey to find recoverywhich, by the way, there's many
people that come to recoveryrooms and still don't find it.
So I feel like extraordinarilyfortunate to have, a survive, b
(03:49):
found recovery and three, youknow, being able to be willing
to stick with it because it is adaily reprieve.
So just meeting him, faceless,nameless, buildingless, and then
over time he really revealedhimself to me and even revealed
myself to myself, like I came toknow myself only through
sobriety and in getting better.
So that's a Clifnode's version,lots of other stuff, but I know
(04:10):
we'll get to it.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yeah, so that's great and I love hearing that story
because I have your book Revivedand Renovated.
It's a new one and it remindedme I actually highlighted a
passage in there when you weretalking about that you were
hungry for something, that youwere searching for something,
and it was God that you weretrying to fill that with.
(04:34):
You said in your book, in therecovered section, you said I
came to know God through myutter brokenness and due to
being a sensitive young personwho felt that deep emptiness.
I now know was a God-sized hole, and I tried to fill that hole
with many things food, alcohol,spending, relationships and
various dysfunctional behaviors.
(04:55):
And I think so many of us canrelate.
And we look around our worldtoday and I don't know about you
, I'm sure you see it in therooms and also just in the world
in general people are seekingfor something and they're just
trying to fill it with stuff,with creation, with things and
(05:17):
or numb.
And it always reminds me ofthis.
My favorite quote from John Paul, the second it's he said he
spoke it at World Youth Day, butI think it's so pertinent to
all of us.
He said it is Jesus, in fact,that you seek when you dream of
happiness.
He is waiting for you whennothing else satisfies you.
He is the beauty to which youare so attracted.
(05:39):
It is he who provoked you withthat thirst for fullness that
will not let you settle forcompromise, and I just see that
so much, and just that snippetof your story that you said,
like we're just trying to tofill that hole with everything.
And then, once we find it, wewake up and we're like, oh,
(06:02):
that's what I was missing,that's what I needed.
It doesn't make everythingperfect, but at least you have
the solution, and that gives youthe tools to turn to the
creator instead of creation, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
I think and I'm late to faith and sort of a biblical
idiot, and I have not atheologian, but from where I
stand, having had my journey,you can reduce the Gospels to we
were really, really hungry andGod fed us.
We were profoundly hungry and,by the way, for thousands of
years we looked to eat in manydifferent ways that didn't
satisfy, and then the Lord founda way to feed us.
(06:39):
And first of all, if you readscripture, there's so much about
looking to be satisfied, tryingto feed ourselves, trying to
find spiritual food, physicalfood, of course, spiritual food.
The Lord wants to feed us sobadly, and so I think that we
can really understand thatallegory of the spiritual food
being not just nourishing butessential to a good life, to
peace.
I think we see it in a totallydifferent way.
(07:01):
So many I just that came to momand you said that and it's sad
for some of us that just weren'tgiven it as children, you know.
I mean we just didn't have itand so we had to find it another
way, and that's really my story.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah Well, and some of us, like me, were given it
and rejected it in a way,because I'm a revert, and so
sometimes we don't realize thetreasure that we have, because
brokenness and other thingshappen, and so then we lose
trust and we rely on ourselves,and so even those of us who are
given it sometimes don't evenknow, we forget, like, how to
(07:36):
use it and have and to have thatchildlike faith.
And I am always in awe ofpeople who, like you, who
haven't really grown up with afaith yet, hunger for it and
thirst for it, and you approachit in this beautiful childlike
way and just accept it into your, your being and and just share
(07:58):
that with others, which I thinkis beautiful too, because that's
how we glorify God and that'swhat he's asking us to do really
.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I'm not sure why God made me this way, but I'm really
not ashamed of my story and Ikeep getting asked to share it
and I, you know, I think youknow there's parts of it that
are not very pleasant and kindof ugly, and it's ongoing.
I mean it's ongoing.
I you know I'm going to havetwo years of sobriety this July.
I have fallen out, fallen in,fallen away in my journey of
(08:26):
recovery many times and I thinkalso being cross addicted.
There's sometimes this balanceof different things.
This thing's going well, butI've kind of like playing
whack-a-mole sometimes in myrecovery and so I'm not ashamed
to say it because I feel likethat's, that's just my story and
I wish I could say I got a 30year chip, but I don't.
And furthermore, I think youknow, in defense of my parents,
they didn't have it to give me.
(08:47):
I was baptized, actually inOrthodox Church, but there's
just so many combinations offactors that made me say
absolutely not, I'm out, andit's a lot.
And I learned in recovery.
You know that this is on me andthat where what happens with
what I was given and all that Iwas provided for me and the
result, that's really on me andthen, just like it's on me now
(09:09):
to continue my recovery and tofind the resources I need.
So again, and I look back and Ido think of.
I think a lot about how to bepassed on faith, but recognizing
that I can do everything rightfor my own children, every
single thing, quote, unquoteright.
I can have every Novena anddevotional and Catholic piece of
art and we can never miss massand we can go to daily, and
still my children's path istheir own Exactly, and that's
(09:32):
the ultimate surrender that itis their own.
I'm still gonna probably try todo everything right, because I
had a real zest to pass it on.
And yet I also know they'llnever have my experience of
finding it in a very, very well.
No, they're not gonna have acrazy conversion story, because
they just won't.
I'll say but I mean like thisidea of having it be brand new
(09:52):
and coming to it in late in life.
But their journey is their ownand as parents we don't get to
direct that like a puppet.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
I know, unfortunately right.
We're like pouring all of thisin and trying to, like you said,
do all the right things.
And then I do a women's Biblestudy and I'll hear from these
women who have adult childrenwho have gone on their own ways,
and I'm like, oh my gosh,please stop telling me this
story.
I just want to hear, like andyou raise them, and then they
(10:20):
stayed Catholic and they marriedCatholic and then their
grandkids are, but it doesn't.
You know, it doesn't alwayswork that way.
Like you said it's, we just doour best and pray.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
So we're best and pray and understand that life is
long and that sometimes I meanjust even the testimony that you
know that it took me so longbut it still happened.
And somebody was saying someonereally must have been praying
for you with a lot of patients,people that are probably dead,
you know what I mean.
Like I don't think there's likethe living or even new to pray
for what I have now, but othergenerations they were just
(10:52):
prayers and I just think, gosh,I mean that's that's a hope
right, that in that, maybe notin our lifetime, but to not give
up, the devil would love for usto give up on prayer.
That's like that's such avictory for him.
Yeah, but that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Absolutely so you touched on your recovery a
little bit and your faithjourney and you said that you
were in 12 step programs.
I've heard you say that 12 stepprograms were actually your
church for a long time.
Can you explain that?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Sure.
So, as I mentioned before, Iwas baptized in the Orthodox
Church in Philadelphia and thenwhen I left home for college I
didn't even have any remoteinterest in finding it or
looking for it.
There was like a New OrthodoxChurch.
I had a connection to familyand cousins and I was like
really longing for that like ahome.
But there's something aboutsomething happened where
religion just became sounpalatable, wasn't interested.
(11:47):
There were some things thathappened where I was like I want
to get as far as I was like Igot to find that whatever that
familial tie I have findsomewhere else.
And so I was a spiritual seeker, was interested in sort of the
spiritual side of things.
But I had a very long new agechapter and surely they think
that was why I perhaps was opento over readers anonymous and
alcoholics anonymous.
When I went to my first meetingsand I heard the God, I thought,
(12:09):
oh my goodness, I can't.
It can't be the God I knew as achild.
It's got to be totallyrewritten and different and a
God made in my own image.
And I think that was acomfortable place for me to be.
And I always say that in 12step programs were given the
option to be anonymous and likewe feel better about that
because it's embarrassing andwhatever the truth is.
God's anonymous, the God is not,because God wants us so badly
(12:31):
to be whole that he has peoplethat I believe he.
I believe he created and wrotethe 12 steps.
I believe it's unbelievably notonly Christian but very
Catholic, because he wants somuch for people to be whole,
even people who will never sayhis name, never step into church
, never acknowledge him, andthat's okay with him, and I know
that as Catholics, like the waywe're revere and worship and
praise God is so important.
But I but I've seen with my owneyes people who just are never
(12:53):
going to ever get across thethreshold into church still
receive healing and receivewholeness, because that is what
happens first, that that's sothey're, they haven't even any
chance of going any further andthat's you know anyway.
So that, though it was my firstchurch and it was very loving
and welcoming and just this ideathat I had never the real, the
seat of the idea that the Godloves us is with us and even
(13:17):
he's a very mundane basic.
So of course he cares about theworst famine, poverty and
terrible tragedies and all thesekinds of things, but he
actually cares about you andwhat you put in your mouth, and
that was a profoundunderstanding that I had to take
on if I was going to believethat I was worth, you know,
getting a great job and praiseGod.
I saw and I believe that hecared and I believe that there
was a power to be accessed,greater than myself.
(13:38):
In my generation I think we'reprobably a similar age I was
taught to be the higher.
I am the higher power, I am thesuperpower.
I'm supposed to get a greatathletic career and I'm supposed
to get a great job.
And then I was supposed to geta great house in the suburbs and
it was all on my own, poweralone and actually.
But I was literally dyinginside.
And so this idea that I couldrest in, lean on and draw from a
(13:59):
higher power, greater thanmyself, that, to me, was my
first spiritual experience.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah, I think I was thinking about this the other
day too, because I was talkingto one of my coaches and we were
talking about, like myself,reliance and how it's taken me a
long time to trust.
But then I was like, of course,of course I was relying on
myself because that is what ourculture was saying, that's what
everyone is saying all the time,like you can figure it out,
(14:28):
grab yourself help book.
I got into new agey stuff tooand it was all about me, me, me.
How am I going to manipulatewhatever situation, and not like
necessarily in a bad way, buthow am I going to control things
in a way that I will makehappen what I want to happen?
And then, when things don'thappen that way, then it's like,
(14:49):
oh well, okay, I need to workharder, I need to do something
else.
And we are just constantlybombarded with that like self,
self, self, self journey, selfintrospection and everything.
And at least for me, and maybefor you to, it was when I was
(15:09):
finally and it took a long time,many, many, many years of
spiritual journey and mysobriety journey to finally let
go and then experience thatfreedom of like it's not on you,
it's not all up to you and itwas so freeing for me because
(15:30):
that was such a big weight thatI was, that I was carrying
around and I didn't even realizeit.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, yeah, no, it is .
I mean that you're right aboutthe focus on self, which is
totally the devil's work,because, whether it's the
positive or negative, theconstant focus on self makes you
literally impotent for so manyother things to serve others, to
be of service, to be part ofthe kingdom.
I mean, and I and yeah, I'm aperfect example of such a self
(15:57):
focused I mean I gosh, I, Ithere's so many examples I could
bring up but very, very selffocused my own, my own
achievement, my own glory, myown grades, my own path.
And then I feel like, whenyou're talking, I was thinking I
feel like we need to shut thatdown because the Lord actually
does have a plan for us, butit's probably not that.
It might be that, but we're notsupposed to, it's not up to us.
(16:18):
And so I really come up againstthis many times.
I didn't think I could havechildren.
I had a totally different ideafor my life.
I totally wanted to be a famousTV star, even in sub writing
and TV career, and I felt likethis is it was.
The Lord wants to be rich andfamous TV person and you know
that was not his plan.
And it's so interesting that Ifeel like I constantly renewing
(16:38):
of the mind, of kind of erasingor blurring out, like my blurry
background, blurring out thesevisions.
For what I think I need to makehappen and that is the crux of
the New Age religion is that youcan manipulate the material and
the spiritual world for yourown game.
Now you can't, sorry, yeah, youcan't, and also that's
dangerous territory and it's nota relationship.
(16:59):
It's, it's not a relationship.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
So yeah, yeah, and you hit on it too, like even as
a believer, like I've alwaysbelieved in God, it was just
like, well, maybe he isn't,maybe he can't do this for me,
or maybe he won't do it for me.
So I'm going to figure out away with all these crystals,
with all this mumbo jumbo, withthe horoscopes, whatever I the
(17:23):
feng shui, I'll make it happen,because he's probably super busy
and can't do that for me rightnow.
So that's fine, god, I'llfigure it out.
But you're right, I mean allthose closed doors, unanswered
prayers, the protection that Ilook back and realize like how
God was protecting me, like fromcertain things.
It was all put in place thereto get me where I am now and
(17:48):
where I'll be in the future.
It's just equipped me andencouraged me and and I see that
you know with you too and justhearing your story, I love it.
When I was reading your book too, you talked about how you were
not interested but you felt thatpursuing you, felt God, you
felt Jesus pursuing you,pursuing you and I I completely
(18:11):
relate to that, even in thosetimes when I was like kind of
shut the door to it and I waslike he's not interested in me.
I don't, you know, it's fine,I'm, I'm fine by myself, I'll
figure it out.
But that pursuing and pursuing,and then you gave an example of
like it wasn't like a burningbush, but it was like this ember
that was inside of you beingkindled and kindled.
(18:34):
And when I give talks andthings I say this all the time.
There was like this flicker ofa flame of the Holy Spirit
inside of me, and every time Iwould like turn and go that
direction.
It would get brighter, you know.
And then and that's kind ofwhat you are saying in here too,
can you?
Is there like a certain momentor anything, when you just felt
(18:56):
that fire just like burst?
And it has it all always beenlike this kind of slow rule.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
That's a great question.
I mean, part of my journey isI'm very stubborn, willful and
slow and so I feel like the Lordpulled out all the stops.
I mean I found myself atMagigoria randomly when I
considered myself pretty much anatheist, slash pagan.
I married a lapsed Catholicfrom a very devout family and
thank God he was lapsed, so hewould never would have made it.
You know, there's just so manymoments.
(19:25):
God put so many people in mylife.
I'm in so many different waysand so I felt like I think of it
as almost like a pilot lightthat was there and I could see
it, but I was very willing toignore it for a long time
because I had so much kind ofantagonism for the faith too.
I mean, I think back about likeI grew up in the generation
where we had the church lady onSNL and church people sucked,
(19:46):
like they were horriblyuninformed and unsophisticated.
And I went to Brown UniversityI'm an Ivy Leagueer.
Like I've got, I've worldly,like I've been around you know
what I mean Like step down, likeI'm not interested in your
small town church BS, and I hateto be that brutally odd, but
that is what I took on and feltI really did experience that,
(20:07):
this idea that church people aresmall and uneducated, and I
still battle with that, evensometimes in my own family, with
this idea that the church isanti-science, whatever Like that
.
It's been in the culture,reduced to something, just, it's
been reduced, reduced, reduced.
But the church has survived andalso being Catholic has been so
humbling, rcia has been sohumbling.
There's so much I don't know.
(20:27):
There's a profound amount thatI don't know and as it's
revealed to me, I'm more andmore like, oh my gosh, and that
pilot light is a full-blowncampfire now.
And even like the book you'rereferencing, revived and
Renovated, is actually my secondbook.
My first book I wrote when Iwas discerning, becoming
Catholic and it's nothing to dowith faith but everything to do
with faith, and we can get tothat later.
(20:48):
But this book I co-wrote with awoman named Victoria Durstock.
She's Baptist.
She had the Bible almostmemorized as we wrote the book
and I was like, oh my gosh, thisis an incredible tool that you
have that I want.
So writing that book with herencouraged me to read the Bible
through Bible in the earth.
My father, mike, for the firsttime in my life, at like 44 or
something like that.
I was old and I mean then I'mlike, oh my God.
(21:10):
And so when you what you evensaid, when did the light really
go off?
When I read the Bible for thefirst time, I feel like it was
like campfire.
It was like, oh my gosh,there's so much here, by the way
, ps.
So much here about sobriety,abstinence and recovery.
Yeah, so much.
And I'm actually reading theBible again and now I'm keeping
a journal about all the thingsrelated to sobriety and recovery
, because there's so much andI'm still deep in the early Old
(21:33):
Testament and there's so much.
So I feel like that's that.
You know, the Lord had to bepatient and be like okay, first
just the church a little bit foryears, then Catholic school a
little bit, then our CIA, youknow, then we'll lay in
scripture with this messengerI'm sending, you know.
So anyway, I'm kind of likeLord, what's next, like what
(21:53):
scales are left that you'regonna take from my eyes and
what's next.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Well, I've been Catholic for 50 years and I'm
still learning so many thingsand like on that journey and I
too am right where you are whereit's like, oh my goodness,
there's so much more to learnand I feel so inadequate in some
ways.
And then I look back at myjourney and think, but look at
how far I've come and how much Iknow, and I love that you
(22:19):
brought up scripture First ofall.
I love your book because I'mnot a great reader, like an avid
reader, but it's done in.
I feel like I'm having coffeewith the two of you.
I think you're just having thisbeautiful conversation and I
just loved it and it's reallyeasy to read.
So somebody is looking for aneasy read that is going to just
(22:40):
oh, it's just so fulfilling andbeautiful to read.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
That's kind of you and I appreciate that because I
have a narrative that that bookdidn't do that well or that it's
like that I didn't do a goodjob promoting it, because as an
author, you're supposed topromote your books.
I haven't promoted either ofthem very well at all and I love
the book, and I love the bookof Revived and Renovated.
I mean, I wanted to.
I feel like I told the Lord Iwant to write a book about my
two favorite loves the home andfaith, and how they've
intersected in my life.
(23:03):
And Victoria is such anincredible person and she came
up with this idea that we revivethe home the Lord provides us.
We renovate the home the Lordrenovates us, and it's such a
perfect allegory in so many ways.
Some people just need a littlepaint job.
Some people just need like somenew lighting fixtures.
Some people need to be takendown to the studs, and I
(23:23):
consider myself in a bit in thatcategory and anyway.
So I appreciate your words onthat.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yeah, yeah, I love that you brought up scripture
because I can tell you that,like my spiritual journey was
pretty slow also and then it gotmore involved when we sent our
sons to Catholic school or twins.
But it wasn't until Ico-coordinated a Bible study at
my parish and we're into ourseventh year of that Bible study
(23:53):
and I will tell you the Bibleis not just like this old, dusty
book that doesn't apply to ourlives, like you were saying.
It is so applicable to ourlives in all areas and I love
that you're taking notes andwriting down.
Maybe that'll be another bookwhere you're like writing down
and doing the scripture, withhow it relates to sobriety and
(24:17):
recovery, because I think somany times, like you were saying
, even you know with your IvyLeague education and all of
these things, people today arealmost afraid to believe because
they don't wanna be seen as,like you were saying, uneducated
or ignorant or just believingfor the sake of believing which,
(24:38):
by the way, I did for a longtime.
People would say, well, why doCatholics do this?
I'm like I don't know, we justdo it.
But really there's a reason forall of it and that's been the
most beautiful journey isfiguring that out, and it's the
same for scripture.
God doesn't just say thesethings, he's not just talking to
the Israelites, he's not justyou know, he's speaking into our
(25:00):
lives today.
This is a love letter for allof us and yeah, and I love it,
and yeah, I hope you write abook about that too.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I might.
I actually I feel like theLord's like write that down,
because there's just so much Imean you can't get.
I said this on Instagram theother day.
I think people got irritated,but that's okay.
You can't get 10 chapters intoGenesis without hearing how
alcohol and getting drunk hasruined families for generations
and maybe not ruined but setpath brokenness into generations
(25:31):
.
I mean, you're talking aboutNoah who literally got drunk the
first thing he did when he cameback and then I think it was a
lot.
You know this kind of, and thensort of the progeny or the
offspring of these sort ofdrunkenness encounters or
whatever is like it has, youknow the Lord doesn't come out
and say that was wrong.
You know lots.
Daughters shouldn't have hadincest with their drunken dad.
(25:52):
You know what I mean.
But then if you look at sort oflike that they founded a land
that has a name that has, youknow just Moab.
You know if there's, we canread the tea leaves or read the
after effects of some of thesechoices and I just I think that
we, I mean like gosh, I meanit's kind of like if you know,
you know, you think I mean youdevelop a reputation for being
(26:13):
like anti-drinking and anti-funOkay fine, I'm really not, but I
am thinking about the damagethat it brings to families.
That, frankly, I wish I knew.
Well, I wish I knew becausewhat I knew was that if you're
grown up and sophisticated, youdrank, you drank a lot and you
knew a lot about drinking andyou went out a lot and you're
really social and that made youcool and that made you
interesting and that's howyou're gonna meet other
interesting, cool people andthat was my theology, I mean
(26:38):
that was it you know, and itfeels really good and I get to
be this person and that's for me.
It was.
I'm this person who I reallyliked being when I'm drunk.
Now, unfortunately, I went waybeyond that to be somebody that
nobody liked, but the drunk pageI just really liked her and
then also have the duality ofthe person.
The page who went to food issomebody who wasn't with people,
so that was like it was kind oflike both sides to two
(27:01):
different kinds of addictions.
But yeah, no, the scripture hasbeen, oh my gosh, so edifying
and I don't know where thewillingness to read the Bible
came from because, as I said, Ican count decades where I didn't
ever think of it or open one orever consider that it could
have value.
And now I can't go a daywithout opening it.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
I don't want to you know, mm-hmm, yeah, I don't
either.
It's so applicable.
And Father Mike also makes itvery easy to understand, cause
you can read the Bible and belike what the heck did I just
read?
What does that even mean?
So that's where Bible in theYear has been very helpful for
me as well, cause even doingBible study for a long time,
(27:41):
there's still things that arejust like I don't get that, and
I love how he notes so manytimes Like it's just full of
brokenness, like we don't haveto shy away from it, we don't
have to be like.
You know, this is such a happyending Cinderella story, like I
mean, we do have a very happyending, but there's still a lot
going on.
It hasn't ended, cause Jesus iscoming back, but we can see the
(28:06):
redemption, but we also see thestruggle and how God never gave
up on his people and he's nevergonna give up on us.
So, and he kept just givingthem chances, just like he gives
us chance after chance afterchance.
So he'll never, he'll nevergive up on us, and I think
that's so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I think also we're meant to see ourselves.
I mean, I really do.
We're meant to see ourselves inall these characters.
And the first time I didn'treally get that cause I was just
trying to keep up and like tryto learn it.
But the second time I do seemyself.
I actually see myself in Faro,an exodus.
I don't know if this makes anysense, but Faro gets sent the
plagues and like all the plaguesare like this stinks, but okay,
I'm willing to live with itbecause I don't want to give in.
(28:47):
And then he, the God, sensemore and more and bigger plagues
, and to me that's a lot aboutmy life before recovery.
I'm willing to live with likelosing a job and like
humiliating myself and losing mywallet and losing my dignity
and having financialcomplications, and I'm willing
to live with a lot of problemsthat came until I wasn't, you
know, and so for me I anyway.
I think in scripture there's somany chances to identify and if
(29:09):
you can't keep reading you'llfind somebody.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, well, and when you were just talking about that
does make sense.
The Faro analogy makes senseBecause then I think about, like
, whether it was the frogs orwhatever, and Moses is like well
, when do you want them out?
And he's like tomorrow.
Like he doesn't say immediately, he's like tomorrow.
And it kind of reminds me ofthat quote from St Augustine
Lord, make me chase, but not yet.
So we're all like we have thatwillingness and until we're
(29:36):
really willing, we're gonnastill kind of like struggle with
it and muddle through, but then, when we're willing, we finally
tell God like this is, I'mready.
It doesn't mean that we won'tslip and we won't fall, but we
will have an awareness, we willlearn from it and we can move
forward hopefully, hopefullyfrom there, cause I always say
(29:59):
it's like a learning thing, evenwith my clients.
I'm like you know what, if youhave a slip, if you break
commitment to yourself orwhatever, okay, yeah, that's a
bummer and that sucks, but it'snot for nothing, because you
will not drink the same way youdid before that, because you
just have, like this, extraawareness.
(30:20):
So even those missteps, even ifsomebody just totally goes off
the wagon, it's, they still havesome awareness to it.
They still have those toolsthat they built up and that they
have in their toolbox.
They just have to dust it offand open it up and take them out
again, but it's never fornothing and it can all be
(30:42):
redeemed.
So you've shared so much aboutyour faith and I love that.
But now I'd like to talk alittle bit about your design,
such your you know, a designexpert and everything.
And I will tell you, when myhusband and I were first married
, nobody would walk into ourhome and even know that we were
(31:02):
Christians.
Like there was, like maybe adusty Bible on the bookshelf
somewhere, somewhere, but nobodywould have mistaken us for
Christians when they walked intoour home.
However, over the years I meanyou can see in my office,
because we have camera our wholehome and we didn't do it
intentionally, it's been anorganic process, if you will, of
just placing holy remindersaround ourselves constantly, and
(31:27):
so now people can't help it.
When they come into our homethey're like you, must they know
that we're not just Christian,we're actually Catholic, because
there's a lot of things there.
But I really appreciate yourapproach because I watched a ton
of HGTV, especially when welived in our little first home,
vixar Upper Home, and I wastrying to make something out of
(31:52):
whatever it was and I watched aton of it.
But following you on Instagramand things, I noticed that it's
not just about that perfectaesthetic, it's not just about
having everything updated andperfect.
It's about breathing life intoit and making your home a place
(32:16):
of comfort in whatever seasonyour family is in, and that just
I think that's so beautiful andit resonates strongly with me.
And I'm just wondering is thatsomething that has always been
that way for you?
Has your Catholic faith playeda role in the way that you think
(32:37):
about design now?
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Well, I would say both my recovery and my
conversion have really changedthe way I think about the home.
I grew up knowing the home wasimportant, because my parents,
our home, was very important.
I think I heard a lot about howthey grew up.
My dad grew up in a row house.
My mom grew up in a little teenhouse with one bedroom and
three daughters and they reallywant bigger and better.
And our home was important andwhat they put into it.
(33:02):
They're very, very careful.
We had years or we had emptyrooms so my parents saved up for
.
So I got the message that thehome was important and I got the
message also which I think is avery American message that you
are the home Like when peoplecome over.
That's how well you've done inlife, that's what you have to
say, that's what your identityis, is like whatever you got.
(33:23):
Do you have nice furniture ornot?
Do you have what do you have?
And I feel like in myconversion or sorry, in my
recovery I learned a differentresonance, a different purpose
of the home, because betweenmeetings I was either at work or
I was at home.
But even if I worked 12 hours aday, I could do a lot of damage
at home If I with alcohol andfood and spending and God only
(33:44):
knows what in my house and Iunderstood the home just had a
different resonance.
It needed to be literally likea nurturing nest where I was
going to read 12-step literature, learn how to pray, which I had
never done before.
Learn how to meditate, whichI'd never done before, which is
like a cornerstone of 12th ofrecovery is prayer and
meditation, with not a lot ofhandbook.
Right Like so.
I'm literally learning this inthat era.
(34:05):
I'm calling people on the phone.
All my memories of that are inactually my apartment at the
time and I had done a lot ofdamage in that apartment, right
Like that's.
In that apartment I had learnedthat I could control my food by
drinking a pitcher of gin andtonic, and so when I was like
beyond that and trying to getbeyond that, I learned the home
was now a place to learn to prayand meditate.
So what did it have to looklike and feel like to allow a
(34:27):
total different shift, differentthings to happen there, and I
carry that with me.
I just think in our culturewe're so confused about what the
home is for what we're tryingto do.
I'm a huge advocate for beauty,yes, and comfort, yes, but we
also have to remember the househas so many objectives.
The house has a place ofministry, of connection, of
building relationship, ofteaching, of learning obedience,
(34:49):
of discipleship, learningmanners, just learning to care
for each other, learning to beof service, learning to open the
doors and be hospitable, andthere's so many things the house
I think is could do, can do,you could say, should do.
But if we're really, reallyfocused on just making it real
pretty number one, we're gonnaget annoyed when it gets used
for other things.
Where interior design has madefamily life hard.
The narrative is the familylife makes interior design hard.
(35:12):
That's not true.
Interior design has made familylife hard because interior
design says it's best if it goesunused and it stays pristine
and it's beautiful.
Well, that's not what happenswhen you have a family.
That's not what happens whenyou entertain, you open your
doors.
That's not what happens whenyou say yes to a dog.
That's not what happens whenyou're taking care of an elderly
parent and now they're in theliving room.
That's not what happens.
(35:33):
It doesn't look like that, andso I get very hot under collar
about this because I think thatinterior design magazines are
trying to project a reality thatisn't true for most of us.
And I've known people whomight've shifted their family
life to be in a line with ahousehold that never gets dirty
and doesn't, you know, and maybeit had less kids, I don't know.
(35:54):
Maybe they just have adifferent, totally lifestyle
because the place and the thingshave been elevated to be so, so
important.
So I don't know if thatanswered the questions, but you
did ask me about the faith.
One thing I'll add to that longharangue, and I'm sorry, is
that the discussion of thedomestic church.
I mean, in our Catholic faithwe hear all the time mass is
important, you know, confessionis important, the sacraments
(36:16):
that do happen in the church areimportant, but everything else
happens in the domestic church,that's a lot it's a lot of time,
it's a lot of responsibility.
I can tell you, going toCatholic school that's great.
I love our Catholic school.
It's that's like I'm doing ajob.
It's our home and our parentingwhich fills in the 90% that
Catholic school doesn't do andwe have a great Catholic school.
(36:37):
But I feel like the domesticchurch has a big, big task and I
have heard that so much andseen it in our Catholic
community and even with myin-laws too, like the role the
home plays, so that just takes adifferent resonance and it just
tweaked and altered my views ofthe home, just being that the
home beauty is so important.
I don't know, I just throw alot at you, christy, so I'm
(36:58):
sorry.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
No, that all completely made sense, and I
agree.
Also, the home is where we doeverything all the good, all the
hard, all the tears happen,laughing happens, sadness
happens, life happens, deathhappens.
The home is just that place oflife and living, and so I love
(37:23):
that you brought all that up.
When you were talking, though,something came into my mind.
You were talking about thedesign perspective, and if
you're looking at these shows,or you're looking at magazines
and all these perfectly curatedrooms that sometimes I joke with
my family when people arecoming over, I'm like, don't
make it look like we live here,get your socks off the couch.
(37:46):
But I think if we look atalcohol marketing, right, it
gives us this false perspectivewe are funnier, we can have more
fun.
Our friends will think that weare more clever, or whatever it
is every vacation will be justthat much more enjoyable.
(38:08):
And it's this false sense ofliving, because we're numbing
the good with the bad, right.
So.
But alcohol commercials won'ttell you that, Nobody tells you
that.
And so the women that I workwith, even though I'm a
recovering alcoholic and Iidentify myself as that and I
(38:30):
have no problem with saying thatloud and proud, like I said it
for a long time and it doesn'tbother me at all, but many of
the women that I work with thatGod placed on my heart are those
women that are kind of in themiddle, like they're noticing
it's causing chaos but it's notto a problem yet.
And it just makes me so madwhen I see like marketing and
(38:55):
wine glasses and sweatshirts andmemes that are targeting us,
saying like you will have thisbeautiful life and your home
will be cleaner and your kidswill be nicer and your husband
will love you more if you havealcohol, which sounds ridiculous
(39:16):
.
But if you look at themarketing and TV and commercials
and movies, that is exactlywhat it's saying.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Oh, I mean 100% it's.
And I think that an even moredangerous message is that this
is how you have to get throughmotherhood Right.
The idea, I think when you'reyoung it's like everybody's
drinking everybody has a,everybody has their drink, that
they like.
You have to have something youlike, but it is your drink right
, and I had mine when I was adirty martini and I made
incredible life mistakes undermany of those.
(39:45):
But now, as a mother, themessage is like it's you, you
won't, you won't get through itwithout drinking wine after they
go to bed or maybe even beforethey go to bed.
And it's amazing how quicklyyou slip before after bed to
before they go to bed,especially when they go to bed
later, like how I watch womensay, well, now, I mean it's four
or five o'clock and it's niceoutside, I can have a glass of
Pinot Grigio and I, whatever, Idon't know, and I feel like it's
(40:08):
, it's, it's.
It's this idea that women areweak.
It makes me so mad.
The women are weak.
That motherhood is really hard.
Nobody told you about this.
It stinks, it's incredible,it's very hard.
Do we want a less hard version?
Do we want to skip part of thehard, like I mean on a
fundamental human level.
I guess yeah we want, we want toskip it, but I think there's
always a cost to that.
Like, how could we be so naiveto think that the easier, softer
(40:31):
way is really easier and softer?
It's not.
You know, like I don't neverforget, somebody said to me if
you go home and drink tonight,you will miss something you were
meant to know or have orexperience or feel or see.
Tonight you'll miss it.
Every night contains that, bythe way, every night of our
existence, our gift on our ifyou can possibly have eaten
binge on junk food tonight,you'll miss something You're
(40:53):
meant to see or know or feel, orremember we're here.
You're a miss it.
So if we think about each dayof our lives like that, like, is
it worth it?
Is it worth doing that?
For every night Are kids,childhood, so you can get
through cranky toddlers and youknow the chaos of having babies
or whatever.
Or or mouthy teenagers like, ohmy gosh, why did I ever
complain about toddlers?
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Cause teens are a whole another.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
I agree, well, and and when you were saying that
too, it's we are almostresenting, I see this, this
resentment towards kids, likethere'll be this thing, like,
well, my kids are the reasonthat I drink, or something like
that, and that just breaks myheart and and I don't think that
it comes from a place thatwomen really think that I think
(41:35):
that they maybe they think it'sfunny or maybe it gives them
some kind of connection orcommunity or solidarity.
I don't know what it is,because that wasn't something
that I dealt with, but I thinktoo, like with design, of making
your house, your home,beautiful and doing all these
things and making it perfect,and then toddlers come in and
(41:57):
they hit the walls with theirtoys or there's things scattered
around their clothes.
You can resent that and resentthem in a way, because you're
like, I just spent all this timedoing this, this and this, and
now it's all messed up, and thisis why we can't have nice
things, and that's same withalcohol.
It's like, well, I have todrink to cope.
(42:18):
I have to drink because they'reso loud, I have to drink for
all of this, and so I thinkthat's what I love about what
you were saying about the homeand enjoying it, and there's
such a correlation between thatperfectionist facade that we try
to put on, whether that'smaking our homes perfect, which
is great, by the way.
Take pride in your home, make ita beautiful place that you love
(42:41):
being in and spending time inand enjoying it with your family
, but it needs to be lived intoo and experienced.
We need to experience all thoserooms, experience all the
things, because we don't wannalook back and I mean there's
enough mom guilt, there's enough, and I think of it too, like
(43:02):
maybe I'm on my phone and my 10year old is saying something to
me and I only catch half of it,but I've totally tuned out.
And when you do that withalcohol and you do it often like
you were saying you're justyou're missing out on something
that you were meant to see orhear or experience.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Yeah, I don't think I've ever made that correlation,
this idea that the alcoholadvertising portrays life in a
certain way and then, like thesort of the home media portrays
life and a lifeless life.
Frankly, I mean I was justthinking that I gotta stop
taking empty videos and picturesof my home because it's such a
lie.
There's always people here butfor some reason, I mean, they're
not here during the school day.
There's a lot of times when Itake the video but and they're
(43:44):
also private, so they don'talways wanna be in the video.
But it's a lie to take videowhen there's no people in it,
but we're so used to it and thatshowcases furniture better and
that showcases spaces better andall that kind of stuff.
And yeah, and we're gonna.
Each parent, you will be given achance where your child wants
your child ruined somethingbecause they don't know about
value, they don't know aboutgoods, they don't know about
(44:05):
cost, they don't know anythingthat you're worried about.
If someone could tell, I wish Icould go back to myself and say
your kids don't know anything.
So don't get mad at them forputting Sharpie on the chair
because they don't know aboutchairs.
They don't know anything.
There's no, they don'tunderstand.
That has to all be communicatedin.
By the way, in anger it doesn'tget communicated.
It's something totallydifferent happens in anger and
all of us are given a chance totell our kids that they matter
(44:25):
more than the stuff.
You're gonna be given thechance over and over and over
again.
And I mean, please understand.
It's a lasting impact when yourchild learns that this stuff's
more important.
And so it recalls the storywhen my son was two.
I had bought this like doublewhite fur chair.
I don't even know what I wasthinking, but it was in their
bedroom when I was thinking it'sreally soft and cuddly and like
(44:47):
I'm like an at-home mom, likeI'm at my full strength in
motherhood in the snugly at home, like I'm not good at I don't
have to play grounds.
But I was like read aloud, sitin a chair.
I bought this big double whitefur chair and we would sit in it
at night and read, and I thinkI had like a four or two and a
zero and we could all fit.
And then one day I turned aroundand my two year old or three
(45:08):
year old he was between two hehad taken a black Sharpie on it
and drawn something on it andwhat came out of my mouth?
What came out of my mouth washellfire.
Okay, it was anger, rage.
And I can still in my mind seeCrystal clear his sweet little
tiny face and looking back at melike, oh my God, like wow.
(45:29):
And the shame I had immediatelyand I feel like it was a.
The Lord allowed thisunpleasant experience that I had
actually had to get rid of thechair because it was so painful.
I had such profound regret andpain at having literally in my
mind who cares about it?
It wasn't inexpensive chair, itwasn't in the living room,
wasn't ruined forever, but theidea that in my mind, that the
(45:52):
stuff had really been elevatedin my mind and keeping the stuff
pristine and I had to learnthat lesson that he is more
important Number one, he doesn'tunderstand.
Number two, he's more important.
And that our job is to teachour kids not to sharpie the
furniture, that we take care ofour things.
We are stewards of our goods butthat they are more important
and we have to do that over time.
And we're doing that, by theway, as they ruin the stuff.
(46:13):
That is it.
If you're gonna live in yourhome and really use it, there
are gonna stain it.
That same kid took a knife toour very expensive Crate and
Barrel sectional and put a kniferight in it.
We still have the knife hole.
When he was pretending to be aninja probably a four or five
and it was like, thank God I hadthat sharpie lesson.
And, by the way, there's been somany other indications where I
could say I don't love it.
(46:34):
I keep a blanket on the hole.
Now I keep a throw rug onbecause I would still have the
sectional.
I don't love it.
But you are more important thanthe things and there's a way,
and even sometimes I can get inarguing with people that say
that kids need to understand.
They need to understand and useit.
So how do we convey that you'remore important and we have to
take care of our stuff and we'regonna use our stuff.
And some things have happenedout of an accident where I've
(46:57):
ruined stuff.
I mean there's things that I'vedone.
We're human and when you reallyuse your stuff, you're gonna
make mistakes and this stuff isgonna get used.
And this whole idea that weneed to keep it pristine is from
real estate.
If you're not selling yourhouse, use your stuff.
Use your stuff Exactly, exactly.
Live in your home.
When you sell, you may have tomake it all look brand new, but
if you're not selling, where arewe in that mode?
But I think that's happened toreal estate.
(47:19):
I really do.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Yeah, I would agree.
And social media right Cause alot of times, like you were
saying, we showcase the prettyparts of it that are uncluttered
and you can't see the diningroom table, maybe that has a few
papers or whatever on it, oryou can't see that.
My twins used to come out andjust like dump their toys in our
(47:42):
very small living room and thenI would clean them up when they
took their nap and then theywould come out and dump them out
again, and it was just a thingthat we did.
But people don't usuallytypically take pictures of
living rooms like that, butthose are some of my most
cherished pictures when I lookback at those I took tons of
(48:03):
pictures and it will be liketheir toys scattered all over
and the cat, and I just love itbecause it reminds me of those
really super fun, sweet moments.
And maybe they weren't Facebookworthy Instagram wasn't a thing
at the time.
Maybe they weren't Facebookworthy at that time, but to me
they're so beautiful.
(48:24):
Well, I know that you probablyhave other things to do, but I
have so enjoyed our conversationand I would just love it if you
would share where people canfind you, maybe what's next for
you what you have in the worksand how people can connect with
you.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
Sure, yeah.
So, as I said, revive yourRenovated was my second book
that I wrote with Victoria,really putting the faith in the
home together with scripture andthen.
But my first book is calledLove the House You're In and
that's really a lot about thephilosophies we've talked about
today that you belong in yourown home and it's not gonna look
like everybody else and it'skind of a journey of
self-reflection and it reallycame about because I realized
(49:03):
that homes had been sanitized offaith, of journey, of
personality, so that we couldall look the same.
And that doesn't, that doesn't,that doesn't jive with me.
I'm also I spend too much timeon Instagram as a compulsive
person.
I'm well aware I spend too muchtime on social media, but I am
at Page Ryan and Ryan hasspelled R-I-E-N and I get us to
do talks every once and now inthe end, and they're very much
(49:24):
like we talked today aboutrecovery, faith, conversion in
the home and how it all wraps uptogether.
So, yeah, I love to hear frompeople.
I love to hear about thesesynchronicities.
I'm not for everybody.
I mean there's a lot of peoplethat are like, not interested.
I want my faith over here and Iwant my home over here.
I just I see it all wrapped upand I think to me every day
(49:45):
includes all of those things.
Oh yeah.
So yeah, I've been delighted totalk to you.
I mean, did you, is there anychance you played sports?
Speaker 1 (49:54):
I played basketball until high school, and then I
did dance for my whole life.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Okay, well because I have this like Catholic recovery
, sports.
Anyway, sometimes when you havelike I was an athlete, there's
just like people that have allthis synchronicity or these
things in common and it's like,wow, there's so many worlds
opened up.
So, yeah, I played basketball.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
So next time we'll talk about that.
Yes, yeah, for sure, and I'm asports mom, so I love being.
I don't know if your kids areinvolved in sports, but I love
being a mom with kids in sports.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
So that's fun, oh amen.
Yes, for fun for me, and I'm soglad I'm sober for that,
because that's what I want to do.
Yes, yes indeed.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Well, thank you so much, Paige, for being here, and
I can't wait to talk to youagain.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
Amen Christy, thank you.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Well, that does it for this episode of the Catholic
sobriety podcast.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeand I would invite you to share
it with a friend, who mightalso get value from it as well,
and make sure you subscribe soyou don't miss a thing.
I am the Catholic sobrietycoach, and if you would like to
(51:04):
learn how to work with me orlearn more about the coaching
that I offer, visit my website,thecatholicsobrietycoachcom.
Follow me on Instagram at theCatholic sobriety coach.
I look forward to speaking toyou next time, and remember I am
(51:25):
here for you, I am praying foryou, you are not alone.
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The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.