January 10, 2024 • 51 mins
When Paul Rossi, a math teacher with a backbone of steel, stood up to critical race theory in his school, little did he know the storm that would follow. Our latest podcast episode brings this intrepid educator front and center as he recounts the personal cost of challenging an educational system steeped in ideology. Hear the raw truth of what it's like to push against the grain when your professional values collide with controversial institutional policies.
Dive deep into the murky waters of educational ideologies with us as we dissect the far-reaching consequences of indoctrination in schools. From stifled faculty meetings to the fear that haunts both educators and students, this conversation unveils the harsh realities of advocating for educational balance. Rossi's experiences with TerraFirma Teaching Alliance spotlight an urgent need for support networks that uphold academic freedom, traditional values, and the cultivation of democratic habits in our classrooms.
As we unravel the tapestry of societal anxiety and its grip on our educational discourse, Rossi offers a perspective that's as enlightening as it is sobering. The episode explores how an increase in societal stress impacts our ability to engage with different beliefs and the ways educational progressivism can transform healthy curiosity into unwavering certainty. Join us for a thought-provoking exploration of the challenges we face in maintaining a diverse and robust educational dialogue in these anxious times.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mr. Webb (00:00):
Is critical race theory really being taught in
our schools?
How does the push foranti-racism training impact both
teachers' freedom and students'education?
What are the real consequencesfor educators who dare to
question the prevailingeducational narratives?
Welcome to The ConservativeClassroom, where we're teaching
(00:23):
the truth and preserving ourvalues.
I'm your host, Mr.
Webb, and I'm glad you're here.
This podcast is a haven forconservative educators, parents
and patriots like you, whobelieve in the importance of
free speech, traditional valuesand education without
indoctrination.
Each week, we dive into issuesthat are plaguing our education
(00:47):
system and keeping you up atnight.
In each episode, we offercommon sense ideas to improve
education in our classrooms andcommunities.
You may feel like you're thelast conservative educator or
parent, but I want you to knowthat you are not alone.
By the way, if you like whatyou hear today, please share
(01:09):
this podcast with a like-mindededucator, parent or patriot.
Together, we can teach thetruth and preserve our values.
In today's episode, we have aconversation with a New York
teacher who stood up againstcritical race theory and
anti-racism training in hisschool.
We'll learn the consequences ofthat decision and how he turned
(01:30):
that into a positive to helpmany more teachers, parents and
students.
Now let's get started.
Today I'm excited to welcome aspecial guest to The
Conservative Classroom, Mr.
Paul Rossi, Chief OperatingOfficer for Terra Firma Teaching
Alliance.
Paul is a former math teacherwho stood up for his students
(01:53):
and against the woke policies athis school.
He's here to tell us his storyand to share with us what he's
doing now to fight for educationin America.
Paul, thank you for joining us.
Paul Rossi (02:05):
Thanks for having me .
I really appreciate it and I'mhappy to talk with you and
excited to share what news aboutwe're doing.
Mr. Webb (02:16):
I'm glad we finally got together.
One of my early interviews waswith Tiffany Justice, with Moms
for Liberty, and after thatinterview she shared with me
your name and suggested that weget together.
And then I met you face to faceat the Teacher Freedom.
Paul Rossi (02:36):
That's Right.
Mr. Webb (02:37):
So this episode has been a long time in the work, so
I'm really glad things workedout.
We finally got to talk aboutthings.
So to start with, can you tellus a bit about yourself, your
background, what led you to getinto teaching in the first place
and the events that took youout of the classroom?
Paul Rossi (02:58):
Well, I'm a career changer.
I guess you would call it Backwhen people had one career and
they had to have a name for it.
But I was a web developer I hadactually worked for, had
several different jobs in my 20sand 30s, and then I decided I
wanted to get into teachingbecause I needed some direction
(03:20):
and I was really bored of thebusiness world, so I needed
something more meaningful in mylife.
So I got a educationalpsychology degree in 2010 and
taught at some pretty roughplaces in New York before I
landed a job at a fairly decentI say decent, I mean in elite
(03:43):
terms this is what they think inthese terms where it was a
second tier elite school inManhattan called Grace Church
School, and it was a great placeand I loved it and I taught
there for since 2012,.
Up until 2021,.
I decided to pull the ripcordand actually speak out against
(04:05):
what was going on there, whathad been going on there for
several years prior.
Mr. Webb (04:11):
So what events happened at Grace that kind of
took you out of the classroom?
Paul Rossi (04:18):
Sure, I taught math, so people don't think of math
as being very political, but itcan be.
It has become politicized andGrace Church was always a very
progressive place.
I put these that word in quotes.
But they always saw themselvesas liberal and as really trying
(04:42):
to change the world in thatsocial way, socialist way, and
so we had to do trainings fromthe very beginning on quote
unquote undoing racism.
They were very, very consciousof the minority students at the
school and really made extremelyself-conscious about their own
(05:07):
skin color, the people who ranthe place, who were mostly white
, but so that was seen as a realobstacle for those kids, and
those kids were told that thewhiteness of their teachers was
an obstacle.
So when you set it up like that, you're going to have problems.
And over time, with the electionof Trump and George Floyd,
(05:29):
things just got progressivelymore and more insane.
The kids were beingindoctrinated to a point where I
had been liberal throughout.
All of this mostly, but I beganto see the effects on the
students was really negative,and I realized that the students
(05:49):
didn't realize that not all theteachers were on board, because
the teachers, some of whom hadspoken to me privately, had
doubts but they could neverpublicly make them known within
the school community, andcertainly not make them known to
the students.
So I felt that the students werebeing underserved because they
(06:09):
didn't realize the hypocrisy ofthe whole enterprise.
And I would see colleagues thatwould preach the gospel of
anti-racism to the schoolcommunity and these large
community meetings and thenbehind the scenes they would say
, well, yeah, well, that wasjust a bunch of crap, and I just
(06:29):
couldn't believe that thesewere educators who were taking
that were really mis-servingtheir whole purpose, which was
they're essentially likesophists.
So I wanted the students tosomehow know that not all the
teachers were on board.
(06:50):
So at one of our meetings in2021, in February, we had a
racially segregated Zoom meetingwhere the white students and
faculty were put in one Zoomroom and what they're called
BIPOC students black andindigenous people of color and
were put in another Zoom room.
Mr. Webb (07:09):
Wow, and how do they not see that as racist?
Paul Rossi (07:15):
Well, it's really fascinating the logistical hula
hoops they have to go through toconvince themselves by their
own framework that they're notbeing racist, but they actually
do have an entire justificationfor all this.
It's circuitous and kind offalls apart when you look at it
too closely, but it really is.
(07:36):
It's really interesting.
And at that meeting, when thefacilitator was talking about
white supremacy, culture and howthings like objectivity was
white supremacy, I realized thatif I didn't say something now I
couldn't live it myself.
So I had to say something.
(07:57):
So I unmuted to a room of 200colleagues and students.
I started to engage thefacilitator in a Socratic method
type of dialogue where I askedthem OK, well, what is whiteness
and how is objectivity white?
And how can that be true ifobjectivity emerged in many
places which were not white aswell as white?
And so you know, two plus twoequals four is not white.
(08:22):
It is undeniably true.
And if it were aliens that camefrom another planet, they would
also see this true.
Maybe they would say itslightly differently.
And so this kind of started,and I was.
I was doing it just so that thestudents knew that not
everybody was on board, becauseevery single one of the faculty,
one after another were sayingall the right things.
(08:45):
They were as if reading from ascript and the kids reading from
a script, and this reallybothered me, and the outcome of
my my questioning was wasterrific.
It was a great success becausethe kids started to ask
questions and then the otherteachers started to ask
questions and it was like a.
It was a prison break.
(09:05):
The ice was broken and, yeah,the upshot of this was that I
was made the scapegoat that this.
The administration Asked me toapologize.
I refused they wanted me to.
They tried to convince me thatI had caused harm to the
students of color by myquestioning, that I had caused
(09:25):
harm to their families and totheir ancestors, that this tip
was tantamount to harassment ofthe students, and so on.
And the more I, the more they,the more I Dug in my heels and
refused to apologize, the moreoutlandish their accusations
became.
So they had the entire, all theteachers at the same time, on
(09:55):
1030 on a Wednesday, recite thescript about how the school,
despite recent events,recommitted to undoing racism
and, and you know that one oftheir colleagues had said things
that were, you know,unacceptable in a zoom meeting.
And so I was walking throughthe halls and I was listening to
every single classroom.
They're saying they're readingfrom the script and the kids are
(10:17):
looking at me through the,through the windows, because
they all, they all, they were,most of them were there and it
was surreal.
Mr. Webb (10:26):
And then I had a student come to talk to me.
Paul Rossi (10:28):
You know there they had the other teachers
throughout this, these twomonths that I continued to teach
there were using me as a.
I heard from some of thestudents that they were using me
as an object lesson and inwhite fragility, they were
telling the students that youknow, mr Rossi was racist.
I had Students in the hallway,you know, mutter racist under
their breath, colleagueswouldn't look at me and so like.
(10:52):
But I realized like the morethis happened, the more I
realized that what I had donewas the right thing and I had a
lot of good people behind me aswell, you know, for support my
wife, my friends and and thatwas really helpful.
Mr. Webb (11:09):
Did anyone at the school students or teachers
Publicly say yes, I feel thesame way.
Paul Rossi (11:17):
Paul's not alone so During the meeting, during that
February zoom meeting, butincluding the woman who who
organized the the session, whowas in the.
You know she was a Student deanand connected to the DI
department, but then she laterhad to recant her words and
(11:37):
apologize for saying that.
You know that my questions wereactually opening up the
dialogue.
So I later had to attendseveral meetings with faculty
administrator.
Where I was, you know one ofthem I wasn't allowed to speak.
I Read a prepared statement butthen, one after another, they
went around the room and andtalked about how this basically
(12:01):
was Traumatic for them toactually even be in the zoom
meeting.
I had one, one teacher Kind ofgot into it during that zoom
meeting.
He was a music teacher at theschool and I Think he was the
most disturbed by my comments.
But you know, to the credit ofsome of the other teachers, they
(12:25):
did stand up for me.
So there was a, there was ascience teacher and one of my
fellow math colleagues said Look, you know, if we're gonna be
this kind of school where peoplecan't Challenge the orthodoxy,
well then we should say thatMaybe it's good that were that,
but we need to be clear thatthat's what we are, because the
(12:45):
the questioning that that mrRossi did Is not unusual and
it's probably held by most ofthe country.
So we need to be able toaddress these questions and If
we're not going to allow thiskind of questioning, then we
should be upfront about it.
And I appreciated that becauseI thought that that was, you
know, at least some kind of youknow it's like, well, let's be
(13:08):
honest here.
If we're gonna be hypocrites,let's, let's, let's be honest
about it.
So the outcome of that I didhave students and parents, you
know, defend me and One studentcame to see me and was terrified
that his history teacher wasgonna see me, because his
history teacher was extremelyleft-wing and this is a student
(13:28):
who had been held back afterclass for defending capitalism
and he was terrified that hewanted to show support for me,
but he didn't want to come in myoffice to do it because he
thought the cameras in thehallways, they were going to be
able to see him in the cameras,so, you know, and his history
teacher would find out and I,yeah, I just figured this is.
(13:52):
This is insanity at a levelthat needs to be publicized.
So I wrote an article, I wrote aletter.
I published it through theBarry Weiss's sub-stack at the
time and it was called commonsense and Then it kind of went
viral and things kind of becamemore and more Public.
(14:12):
I went on several podcasts andI got the message out there.
I was tremendously grateful tothe, to Barry Weiss and to you
know other people for giving mea platform to tell this story,
and it was happening everywhere.
I got thousands and thousandsof emails from private schools,
from public schools All over thecountry, fed up teachers,
(14:34):
people who were scared, studentswho were scared.
I heard from form formerstudents at the school that I
had that were grateful for whatI did and it was a you know I
got.
I got to meet a lot of people atthe beginning of this movement
who are doing great work.
People like Tiffany People,people like you know, no left
turn in education, parentsdefending education and and so
(15:00):
the, the CRT.
You know the gender ideologywas also part of this
indoctrination, but it's alsocritical race theory.
Mainly critical race theory wasthe focus of my piece, and
Something I don't think peoplerealize is that critical race
theory even though you don'thear about it that much, it
hasn't gone away.
It's still going on.
Gender ideology has capturedyou know more of the media.
(15:23):
I but and that's terrible, butit is you know, both of these
things are happening.
We're seeing it at the, atHarvard.
We're seeing it, and it's sortof I guess the fish rots from
the head.
So what happens at the eliteinstitutions goes down into
K-12?
.
Mr. Webb (15:38):
The left says that critical race theory is not
being taught.
Paul Rossi (15:44):
Think of it like this If you don't, it are we
teaching the scientific method,even if we don't have the kids
read Francis Bacon, right?
That's what it's like, right?
So there it is.
It's a disingenuous point.
Mr. Webb (15:58):
I've talked to so many people that, just like your
story I mean that's obviously.
It obviously is being taught.
They just might not be callingit that.
So do you think your story isan isolated incident?
Or do you think there areschools and teachers like
yourself that are experiencingthese things that maybe they're
not brave enough to speak up?
(16:19):
Maybe they feel like they'realone and if they speak out it's
gonna cost them their job.
So they feel like they're justgonna put their head down?
Definitely, definitely, and alot of teachers try to get
through this thing until return.
Paul Rossi (16:31):
You know what my nonprofit, where I we run a
network for teachers calledterra firma, teach we, we speak
to these teachers all the time,we counsel them, we give them,
you know, options a lot of time.
You don't have a ton of options.
A particular private school youhave even fewer Than a public
school because of the contractsituation.
(16:53):
You only get a year to yourcontract, most, almost all,
private schools.
There's no union, so you, youdon't have any job protection
and so the culture, the cultureof silence and denunciation, is
greater at a private school, andthis is one of the issues.
To have a school choice, whichis generally a good idea, but
you know we can get into that.
(17:13):
Um, absolutely, students towhat kills me as a student's
right, because adults, adults,have a hard time dealing with
this.
What do you think students feelabout this?
And I know these students and Iknow that you know hearing from
my former students after I wentpublic.
(17:35):
It's heartbreaking.
You know I have stories thatthat I can't share about what
happened to students that werebullied.
You know that were.
You know social media calledracists For you know these minor
infractions that were seen asakin to, you know, owning slaves
(17:55):
.
And Then in the hysteria, andand also, the black students are
not benefited by this becausewhat happens is they get given a
tremendous amount of power bythe adults who want to let the
quote unquote, let the childrenlead us right.
So you have, you know, for a 14year old is not mature enough
(18:15):
to handle that kind of power.
So they're, they're encouragedto be political creatures Before
they even understand whatthey're being political about
and understand the nuances andunderstand the complexities.
And they, you know, the fist israised, the poetry is recited,
the garb of the activist isdonned and they're sent out into
(18:39):
the world.
And I see, I saw ninth gradekids come in, black students,
brown students, latina, whatever, and they, you know, they come
in happy-go-lucky, cheerfulFriends, making friends with
people not based on the color oftheir skin, and they come out,
these warped, twisted, resentfulcarriers of an ideology and it
(19:04):
will not serve them well.
But the people pushing it don'twant to serve these kids.
They want to change society.
So they want to create, theywant to weaponize kids and I
know it because we've had thoseconversations in the faculty
lounge Okay, and they want tochange the world.
(19:24):
That's their agenda Creatinghigh functioning, resilient kids
who will raise strong familiesand be a good part of their
communities.
That's not part of it.
That's second order stuff andit's really scary and it's
happening a lot of places inthis country now.
Mr. Webb (19:47):
And so, and it's straight up, indoctrination
Right and you know what I've got.
Paul Rossi (19:52):
To be honest, I think that in many ways, like I,
believe in indoctrination.
I'm going to be kind of openabout that.
You can't really reason with aneight or nine year old about
what the great wisdoms of andgreat traditions of our past
right.
You teach them rules Right andlater, when they have greater
(20:15):
reason capacity, they can talkabout why those things are right
.
But you do have to sort ofinculcate habits, behaviors and
some beliefs and trust thatthose things work right.
And the reason why those thingsare wisdoms that last the test
(20:37):
of time is because they work anda child and even many adults
don't know why they work and itcan't always be answered why.
There's not always a way to sortof reason through it if you
haven't experienced why it worksby having tried other things
and have them fail.
But what is the cost of failure?
(20:58):
That's something that noacademic needs to.
As Thomas Solis says, noacademic has to pay the price
for being wrong, but our kidswill, and so you know.
That's why I actually do thinkpeople who want to get into it
about what is indoctrination andwhat isn't you do need to
indoctrinate.
You just need to indoctrinatethem in the right things.
(21:20):
I'm talking about religion perse, but I am talking about
wisdom and objective universaltruths that are true in an ill
context Right, not politicalindoctrination.
Mr. Webb (21:33):
So in the spectrum of indoctrination that's OK, which
may start at home, you know,teaching the values.
Just like you know my kids, Iwant to teach them what my
values are.
I feel like my values are thecorrect values.
I think everybody should feelthat way about their values.
(21:54):
So I want to you can call itindoctrinate, I guess them into
that.
And on the other end of thespectrum is in the public school
setting, political and liberalideology indoctrination.
That's not OK.
Paul Rossi (22:13):
Right, and you know yeah.
Mr. Webb (22:15):
So you mentioned something a minute ago and it's
a question that I was going toask you about.
Once you left the school andgot out of teaching, did you
have some students and teachersthat then said, hey, I couldn't
say anything then, but sinceyou're not, since you're not at
(22:37):
the school now, you know Isupport you and it sounds like
you did.
Paul Rossi (22:42):
Yeah, and I continue to get some emails now and then
from students, my formerstudents, who are in college now
and they see, you know, andthey're starting to question
some of the things that and theywere true believers in our
progressive high school and nowthey're starting to question.
So this is very encouraging.
I was a hardcore lefty incollege, right Like.
(23:10):
I think it's very natural insomeone's 20s to get carried
away with those ideas and theutopianism of certain ideas.
You know, I'm just glad therewasn't an Antifa when I was in
college, or if there was, Ididn't know about it because I
might have joined.
But time has a way andexperience has a way or it has
(23:36):
historically had a way of, youknow, giving people experiences
that lead them to sort of thinkdifferently about things and not
to be so.
Life is not so simple.
That's been gratifying to hearthat Several of my current
students at the time were verysupportive and that was
(23:56):
gratifying.
And their parents as well.
Mr. Webb (23:59):
And what would you say to educators who find
themselves in similar situations?
Paul Rossi (24:05):
Well, one of the things I've learned about the
situation I went through and I'mnot alone, there are several
others you know have come outDana Stanglplau for one, frank
McCormick for another.
There hasn't been a groundswellby any means, but several
teachers have started to comeout.
I can you know, maybe itdoesn't, some of them have filed
(24:29):
legal complaints.
What I would say is understandwhat you're willing to give up
and what is the line that youwill not cross and ask yourself
what that is so that when itcomes you won't do it and you'll
finally say no.
And I think it's very importantto anticipate that and to act
(24:58):
on it when the time comes.
Myself, I knew that I was goingto say something six months
before I did and I was justthinking about what is the
opportunity where I can say in away that will benefit the
children.
And it turned out to be thatZoom meeting.
(25:20):
I wasn't plotting it, but whenthe opportunity came I was ready
, because I kind of loosened thescrews on my silence, if that's
the way to put it.
I wasn't as bolted down as Iwas before.
I guess I had a screw loose orsomething.
Mr. Webb (25:41):
The questions you asked.
Paul Rossi (25:43):
you probably had six months to think about those
questions, yes, but it was animpulse move, I'll be honest,
because the facilitator, who was, all I think, 25 years of age
and a very nice young woman Idon't blame her, I don't think
she's at fault for this insanityshe had said as you look at
(26:09):
this slide on the Zoom, with allthese characteristics of white
supremacy, you may beexperiencing white feelings.
And at that point I was justlike now you've taken whiteness
and created this constructcalled white feelings okay,
which is a demonic formulation,if there ever was one that you
(26:34):
could have a feeling because youwere white.
And what is a white feeling?
And so I asked what is a whitefeeling?
And that was the thing thatkind of cascaded from there and
that was a simple like act ofimpulse, even though it had been
a long time coming.
(26:55):
So don't be afraid to be andalso make plans, like, if you
don't have potentially otherincome as a teacher because you
may get fired, you have to bewilling to be fired.
You may even have to be willingto give up entirely in the
profession, because if it goessideways and you get a
reputation and you work in asmall town, well then you're
done in teaching.
You have to find an alternatesource of income, particularly
(27:18):
if you have a family.
You have children.
I knew I could code right.
I had experience in computers.
So if I lost my job in math, Ihad a fallback and as it turned
out, I didn't need it because Ifound another teaching job in
New York, which is kind of amiracle, and I'm very grateful
(27:39):
to that.
Mr. Webb (27:40):
Can you tell us about?
So you're out of the classroom.
You know, grace, fast forwardto today.
You mentioned the Terra FermaTeaching Alliance, so tell us
about that.
Paul Rossi (27:54):
So we are.
We're a national network,actually international now,
because we have teachers fromBritain and Australia and Canada
, many teachers from Canada.
They have a real tough up thereand we strategize, we offer
peer support, we offerprofessional development and we
don't charge anything for thepeer support and we also do
(28:16):
hiring and placement.
So if a teacher is reallystruggling at a school, we try
to counsel them to stay and topush back in ways that they can
control.
That won't, you know, causethem their job.
So we try to assess the risktolerance of every individual
and we, you know, we kind ofshepherd them through that
process and then brainstorm anddraw on tactics and strategies
(28:40):
that we've developed over yearsto think about what could you do
or how to reach out to allies.
How do you find colleagues thatmight agree with you to get
support within the institutionwithout compromising yourself?
How can you connect with parentgroups in the area, like Moms
for Liberty, your parentsoffending it, you know?
How can you perhaps be aconduit for materials that
(29:03):
parents would want to know aboutif the school has adopted a
quasi-policy or non-policypolicy about, you know, not
telling parents if their childis questioning their gender,
which many schools have in someof them.
In many cases it's actually thelaw.
How can you try to get thatinformation out there?
(29:24):
So there are a lot of thingsthat teachers can do and they're
in a unique position to do it,to move the needle in their
communities on some of thesequestions and push back and try
to change things in theinstitutions.
So we counsel them there andthen we also do hiring and
placement.
So if a teacher is just reallyat the end of the rope at a
(29:47):
school, we have contacts withclassical charter networks or
religious schools or independentprivate schools that are more
traditional and values-based andthey are desperate for good
teachers.
Right, they're desperate forteachers that are believe in
traditional values, you knowwhether they're religious or not
.
This trend you know this isbroader than religion, any
(30:08):
particular religion, and so we,you know we will vet these
teachers.
We know these teachers.
There are teachers and so thatwe can vouch for them and we're
a go-to source for teachers tofind their place in an
institution that will supportthem.
Mr. Webb (30:27):
That's an interesting organization.
I'm not sure that I know ofanother one.
Paul Rossi (30:31):
Yeah, I don't think there is.
Mr. Webb (30:33):
The hiring and placement and counseling.
Paul Rossi (30:36):
That's very it's a unique approach, Also legal like
, so we have lots of contacts inpublic interest firms and pro
boner lawyers that we can getthem to if there's actually
anything actionable within theirschool and in several cases
there are we've been able tohelp some of our teachers with
that as well.
Mr. Webb (30:55):
So what is, what's the goal of TerraFirma?
Paul Rossi (30:59):
You know, we are a.
We don't have a lot of grandgoals, and I kind of like it
that way.
We are very grassroots, veryhumble, we want to help each
individual teacher.
So we take things as a case bycase basis.
I think a lot of largenonprofit organizations, some of
(31:24):
them tend to have a broaderpolitical agenda, and we a lot
of times we've seen someteachers that get caught up in
that political agenda in a waythat doesn't necessarily serve
them, and so we really areteacher focused in that way and
we're totally comprised of K-12teachers.
There's no one outside of thatmilieu.
(31:47):
So we don't have collegeprofessors, we don't have
anybody higher education, andthere is a need for this,
because Heterodox Academyrecently eliminated their K-12
division.
So did FIRE, bonnie Snyder,who's my partner at TerraFirma
she used to be in the educationK-12 at FIRE and so so many of
(32:10):
these big organizations havesort of abandoned that project,
for good reasons, I'm sure, butthere's definitely a need for
what we do.
Mr. Webb (32:20):
Tell us about some of the resources that you guys
offer.
I'm looking at your website andtell us about the sub stack.
Actually, subscribe to that.
Paul Rossi (32:33):
Yeah, we publish articles by teachers for
teachers.
So many of these teachers areunder anonymous handles because
they can't give their names, butit's a way for people to sort
of see what schools are reallylike on the inside.
We also have some strategyarticles about how to approach
problems.
It's important for us to, wethink, get back to a patriotic
(33:01):
view of our country.
We're not perfect, ourcountry's not perfect, but we
have many things that we shouldbe proud of.
And if you raise children tothink that their country is
corrupt, hopelessly corrupted by, say, the original sin of
slavery, then you are not gonnahave a coherent and functioning
(33:26):
society for very long.
So, part of you know, one ofthe things we advocate for is a
strong sense of identity asAmericans from all backgrounds,
and to teach pride and to teachthe habits of democracy, the
habits of viewpoint diversity,the habits of tolerance, is very
(33:47):
important, because once youlose that, it doesn't matter
what's written on a piece ofpaper.
The Constitution might as wellbe gone.
Freedom of speech is enshrinedin many constitutions in this
world, but it's not alwaysfollowed, so we need to
cultivate that as a living, youknow, in the lives of people and
(34:09):
their habits, and so that'simportant to us and we talk
about that on the sub-stack too.
Mr. Webb (34:15):
You said something very important diversity of
thought.
I think you worded itdifferently.
If that's what you were talkingabout, that's an important type
of a diversity that I feel likewe're losing.
We're instead of viewpointdiversity.
We're just, you know, the colorof your skin, the diversity,
(34:39):
equity and inclusion, thatdiversity, part of that, the DEI
, it's not diversity of thought.
Paul Rossi (34:46):
I always compared, like what it was like growing up
.
I mean, a lot of people do this, but as a Gen Xer, you know, I
always think about what it waslike in the 90s.
If somebody said something thatwas totally disagreeing with
you, you know I think about, myfirst reaction would be
curiosity oh, why do you thinkthat?
Huh, you know, as long as itwasn't totally crazy, but it
(35:10):
would be, you know, it would belike, wow, you know, huh, you
know Andrew thinks that aboutthe situation.
I never thought of it that way.
You know, maybe I don't thinkhe's right, but whatever,
Andrew's Andrew Right.
And now we just have, I think,as the anxiety level has
increased in society, people aremore autistic, and I use that
(35:34):
word, you know, not as adiagnostician, but as a sort of
a general societal problem, andthat, you know, we feel
constantly that our beliefs areunder threat and so we cannot
tolerate other beliefs, and thiscould be on the right as well
as the left.
And so, you know, our firstinstinct is no longer curiosity,
(35:56):
which is kind of curiosity, iskind of a luxury.
I didn't think of it that wayback then.
But if you are psychologicallygrounded and you don't feel
under threat, well then you canafford to be curious.
But if your anxiety level istoo high, you can't tolerate a
lot of ambiguity.
You need to have people agreewith you.
And it's sort of like the globalvillage, right?
(36:19):
I mean, people used to say theglobal village was a nice place
to be, but you know, I don'tknow how many villages they've
actually lived in, because thereare some villages that are not
a very nice place to live inbecause everybody's very
closed-minded, and so I thinkwe're seeing the dark side of
the global village now, in thatpeople who are particularly
(36:44):
those that are perpetuallyonline are kind of don't have
that groundedness in theircommunities, and I count myself
as a member of that.
So I'm not going to throw stonesin any particular direction,
but it's a.
You know, if you're going tothink about general trends in
(37:04):
society over the last fewdecades, that's one of the
biggest that I think is having amajor impact on our discourse
and our ability to toleratedifferences, and we need to try
to dial it down.
We need to, you know, dial downthe temperature when you talk
to people, because they're goingto be them and you can be you
and it's okay, they don't haveto agree with you and I try to
(37:26):
teach.
You know I can't teach that tothe kids directly, but hopefully
we can model it and you knowit's.
I think that would work better.
Mr. Webb (37:38):
In the 90s and 2000s, maybe earlier than that, but
this is when I noticed StephenCovey's seven habits of highly
effective people.
I'm sure you're familiar withthat.
One of those seven habits isseek first to understand, then
to be understood, and I feellike that is so rare in society
(38:01):
now, and where we used to betaught in higher education to be
curious, now it's.
They don't say be closed minded, but it's okay.
Here are the list of acceptableviews, and if you disagree,
your speech is violence.
I don't know how we came so far.
(38:23):
I mean, that's just crazy tothink about.
Paul Rossi (38:27):
Well, one thing one thing that people don't
understand about progressivismand education, and it is
incredibly effective and theyhave honed their tactics to the
point where they can come into akindergarten or an you know,
you can have a first gradeteacher and they use these
tactics, which is like using abazooka on a butterfly.
(38:47):
Okay, it's, it's if youactually want to know, you can
go to their videos, that you cansee training videos where they
teach these teachers how to doit and the way they do it is.
There are lots of components toit, but essentially it's.
It takes that curiosity and ittakes it from a, from a place of
curiosity, to a place ofcertainty, and it's not simply
(39:08):
beating them overhead with apolitical idea.
That would be.
You know, that wouldn't work.
Okay, because the kids wouldrebel.
They actually use curiosity andempathy In a way that gradually
leads them down this primrosepath into a hedge maze of
(39:28):
ideology, and it's it's almostlike you kind of have to admire
it in a sick way because it's sowell done.
For example, identity.
What they'll do is they'llstart with you know who are we,
what you know, what are we, whoare you, you know and celebrate
yourself and all of these veryseemingly harmless nostrums
(39:50):
about being a happy person.
And what are the things youlike, what are your preferences?
Well, I like ice cream and Ilike, you know, color orange and
you know I like the Buffalobills, or whatever your,
whatever your preferences are,and that's your.
And then they create aconstruct around it called
that's your personal identity.
And so that's you and yourpreferences and your likes and
dislikes, which is already sortof impoverished view of identity
(40:13):
, frankly.
But it's no longer right.
Right, it doesn't, it doesn'tnecessarily lead to anything bad
yet, but what they'll do isthen they'll move from that into
social identity.
And so, well, how do otherpeople see you?
Well, they see me, you know,and they, they lead.
That's your social identity.
So how other people perceiveyou is important, right, because
(40:41):
then you have expectations andstereotypes for how you're
supposed to be and you know someof those things are.
They don't really see the real.
You do, they Right, and youknow.
But so this is your socialidentity and it becomes a racial
identity, it becomes an ethnicidentity, becomes a gender
identity, how you are perceivedis a political identity, and
(41:03):
then gradually they completelyeliminate the personal identity.
So the personal identity isjust a gateway into the social
identity and then, upon thatplatform of resentment about how
you are perceived, and you knowthey, they tell you, they have
a whole story to tell you backin time in the history of your
(41:24):
people, your identity and howit's been persecuted.
And then they have a wholeprojection to the future for
activism and how to change theworld based on that political
identity.
And so the kids from theearliest ages I think they just
came out with a poll talkingabout how, you know, there's an
incredible generational splitbetween you know, people who are
(41:46):
18 to 29 who think whitenessshould be blamed for the world's
problems, and people older than29 who think that's divisive
and not a good idea.
Because you know, the simpletruth is that indoctrination
works and they're much better atit than anyone on the right.
I can tell you that.
And it's scary because they useempathy is the coin of the
(42:10):
realm.
We're just being good people.
This is their virtue, right?
It's kindness, metastasizedinto this crazy thing which
obliterates all other virtues.
And the kids run with that,because when you're a child, you
think like a child and youdon't reason outside of your
(42:33):
feelings, and they use thefeelings as a platform.
And so one of the things, yeah.
Mr. Webb (42:40):
And you tend to believe what an adult is to you.
Paul Rossi (42:42):
And not only that, but many clueless parents are
saying do what your teacher saysright, because they grew up in
a context where the teacher didknow best and so they've carved
out.
These teachers and of course,not all teachers, but many of
the most politically dedicatedteachers have carved out an
(43:02):
intimacy with your child, ifyou're a parent, and they are
exploiting that intimacy.
And this works at the level ofgender, which we haven't talked
about.
But it really is something thatyou can't worry enough about,
(43:23):
in my view, because education iseverything to a society.
If you think generationally, ifyou think long term and the
ancients knew it right, we'veforgotten it because we trusted
people to raise our children forus, and if you do that, then
(43:45):
you are forfeiting your right toguide your child's upbringing.
I mean, you're passing them offto somebody else for six hours
a day.
God knows what they're tellingthem, right?
So if I get parents who say,well, what can I do?
My school is this, my school isthat, thank you.
(44:09):
Maybe it's not the best foreveryone, but that's the only
way you can be sure because,let's say, you managed to fix
your school right.
What's going to happen in fiveyears when they hire different
teachers or there's a newadministration.
You cannot control that.
You will never be able tocontrol that.
So it's a dark pill for a lotof parents to swallow, and God
(44:34):
bless them.
They're in a tough spot, butthat's really what I see right
now.
Mr. Webb (44:39):
Well, I sure thank you for sharing your story and
there's so many other things Iwant to get into, maybe on
another episode.
If you'd like to come backabout school choice the teacher
ethics standards that's on theTerra Fermi website.
Paul Rossi (44:57):
Yeah, the ethics standards are fascinating
because a lot of teachers don'teven know, a lot of states don't
even know they exist anymore.
But they can be a way to holdon, hold up some of these, some
of these policies to a mirrorand say, look, we're failing our
ethics standards.
So they can be useful useful inthat way as well as being
(45:20):
correct.
Mr. Webb (45:26):
And I usually end the episode with a key takeaway.
So, paul, what's the one thingyou want the listener to
remember, if they don't rememberanything else about this
episode?
Paul Rossi (45:36):
If your, if your listeners are parents, I would
say this don't trust the gradesthat your child is getting,
because the grades have inflatedand they are not generally an
accurate reflection of what theyknow.
So I would say find independentdiagnostic tests at grade level
(46:00):
and see what your child knows.
What do they really know andwhat do they not know?
And many parents would beshocked to find out that their
child is like two grades belowtheir actual grade and what they
know.
Because the state of education,particularly public education,
has degraded so far and eventhough we focused on politics in
(46:21):
this episode, I would say theeven bigger and problems are
just the greater.
Dysfunctions are at the levelof discipline and the level of
declining standards and the factthat most teachers don't know
how to teach anymore.
There are, there have been,several fads which are tied in
with the politics but separatefrom them around the best
(46:42):
pedagogy and these have causedenormous destruction in the
education of youth becausethey're simply that, their fads,
and we need to get back tobasics, not just in viewpoint
diversity and political deeppoliticizing education, but also
in the pedagogy.
So maybe I would love to talkabout that on a future podcast,
(47:04):
if possible.
Mr. Webb (47:07):
Yeah, I'd love to.
As we wrap up this conversation, can you share with us your
share with our listeners wherethey can find more information
about any upcoming projects orbooks?
How to find tear affirmativeteaching alliance, the sub stack
, and we didn't even mention apodcast, but you're involved in
(47:28):
a podcast.
Paul Rossi (47:29):
Yes, we haven't done one in a while, but there are
some great ones in the can thatyou can visit us on YouTube
there.
I do a podcast with FrankBacormick, who is a teacher in
the Chicago area, calledChalkboard Heresy, so if you can
look us up on there, we're onSpotify, we're on iTunes Terra
firma teach.
Our URL is tftechorg and youcan find our resources and how
(47:55):
to join our mailing list andjoin our network there.
Our sub stack is called theethical educator at
ethicaleducatorsubstackcom.
Mr. Webb (48:05):
And how can they connect with you on social media
?
Paul Rossi (48:09):
At Paul D Rossi.
That's Paul D Rossi on Twitter.
That's the best way to find meand you can Victor, you can DM
me there by DM zero.
So if you're a parent or astudent, you have questions, I'm
pretty responsive.
Mr. Webb (48:28):
I'll put a link to your link tree in the show notes
.
I read that link tree, Ibelieve, has all those links you
mentioned, including thepodcast.
I would suggest folks checkthat out.
I'm subscribed to it, um, andit's worth a listen, definitely.
Thank you so much for joiningus today, paul.
It's been a pleasure having youon the conservative classroom
(48:51):
and I know my listenersappreciate you sharing your
story and some of theseresources that you shared with
us.
So thank you so much.
Paul Rossi (48:59):
Thank you, Joey, it's been a pleasure.
Mr. Webb (49:03):
That's it for today's episode of The Conservative
Classroom.
Thank you for tuning in and Ihope you enjoyed it and learned
something.
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and leave us a review on yourfavorite podcast platform.
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Most importantly, share thispodcast with a like-minded
(49:23):
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onservativeC lassroom@ gmail.
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(49:46):
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(50:57):
that you are doing the rightthing.
Until next time.
This is, Mr.
Webb, reminding you that youare not alone.
See you next time on TheConservative Classroom.
Teaching the truth.
Preserving our values.
Is critical race theory really being taught in
our schools?
How does the push foranti-racism training impact both
teachers' freedom and students'education?
What are the real consequencesfor educators who dare to
question the prevailingeducational narratives?
Welcome to The ConservativeClassroom, where we're teaching
(00:23):
the truth and preserving ourvalues.
I'm your host, Mr.
Webb, and I'm glad you're here.
This podcast is a haven forconservative educators, parents
and patriots like you, whobelieve in the importance of
free speech, traditional valuesand education without
indoctrination.
Each week, we dive into issuesthat are plaguing our education
(00:47):
system and keeping you up atnight.
In each episode, we offercommon sense ideas to improve
education in our classrooms andcommunities.
You may feel like you're thelast conservative educator or
parent, but I want you to knowthat you are not alone.
By the way, if you like whatyou hear today, please share
(01:09):
this podcast with a like-mindededucator, parent or patriot.
Together, we can teach thetruth and preserve our values.
In today's episode, we have aconversation with a New York
teacher who stood up againstcritical race theory and
anti-racism training in hisschool.
We'll learn the consequences ofthat decision and how he turned
(01:30):
that into a positive to helpmany more teachers, parents and
students.
Now let's get started.
Today I'm excited to welcome aspecial guest to The
Conservative Classroom, Mr.
Paul Rossi, Chief OperatingOfficer for Terra Firma Teaching
Alliance.
Paul is a former math teacherwho stood up for his students
(01:53):
and against the woke policies athis school.
He's here to tell us his storyand to share with us what he's
doing now to fight for educationin America.
Paul, thank you for joining us.
Paul Rossi (02:05):
Thanks for having me .
I really appreciate it and I'mhappy to talk with you and
excited to share what news aboutwe're doing.
Mr. Webb (02:16):
I'm glad we finally got together.
One of my early interviews waswith Tiffany Justice, with Moms
for Liberty, and after thatinterview she shared with me
your name and suggested that weget together.
And then I met you face to faceat the Teacher Freedom.
Paul Rossi (02:36):
That's Right.
Mr. Webb (02:37):
So this episode has been a long time in the work, so
I'm really glad things workedout.
We finally got to talk aboutthings.
So to start with, can you tellus a bit about yourself, your
background, what led you to getinto teaching in the first place
and the events that took youout of the classroom?
Paul Rossi (02:58):
Well, I'm a career changer.
I guess you would call it Backwhen people had one career and
they had to have a name for it.
But I was a web developer I hadactually worked for, had
several different jobs in my 20sand 30s, and then I decided I
wanted to get into teachingbecause I needed some direction
(03:20):
and I was really bored of thebusiness world, so I needed
something more meaningful in mylife.
So I got a educationalpsychology degree in 2010 and
taught at some pretty roughplaces in New York before I
landed a job at a fairly decentI say decent, I mean in elite
(03:43):
terms this is what they think inthese terms where it was a
second tier elite school inManhattan called Grace Church
School, and it was a great placeand I loved it and I taught
there for since 2012,.
Up until 2021,.
I decided to pull the ripcordand actually speak out against
(04:05):
what was going on there, whathad been going on there for
several years prior.
Mr. Webb (04:11):
So what events happened at Grace that kind of
took you out of the classroom?
Paul Rossi (04:18):
Sure, I taught math, so people don't think of math
as being very political, but itcan be.
It has become politicized andGrace Church was always a very
progressive place.
I put these that word in quotes.
But they always saw themselvesas liberal and as really trying
(04:42):
to change the world in thatsocial way, socialist way, and
so we had to do trainings fromthe very beginning on quote
unquote undoing racism.
They were very, very consciousof the minority students at the
school and really made extremelyself-conscious about their own
(05:07):
skin color, the people who ranthe place, who were mostly white
, but so that was seen as a realobstacle for those kids, and
those kids were told that thewhiteness of their teachers was
an obstacle.
So when you set it up like that, you're going to have problems.
And over time, with the electionof Trump and George Floyd,
(05:29):
things just got progressivelymore and more insane.
The kids were beingindoctrinated to a point where I
had been liberal throughout.
All of this mostly, but I beganto see the effects on the
students was really negative,and I realized that the students
(05:49):
didn't realize that not all theteachers were on board, because
the teachers, some of whom hadspoken to me privately, had
doubts but they could neverpublicly make them known within
the school community, andcertainly not make them known to
the students.
So I felt that the students werebeing underserved because they
(06:09):
didn't realize the hypocrisy ofthe whole enterprise.
And I would see colleagues thatwould preach the gospel of
anti-racism to the schoolcommunity and these large
community meetings and thenbehind the scenes they would say
, well, yeah, well, that wasjust a bunch of crap, and I just
(06:29):
couldn't believe that thesewere educators who were taking
that were really mis-servingtheir whole purpose, which was
they're essentially likesophists.
So I wanted the students tosomehow know that not all the
teachers were on board.
(06:50):
So at one of our meetings in2021, in February, we had a
racially segregated Zoom meetingwhere the white students and
faculty were put in one Zoomroom and what they're called
BIPOC students black andindigenous people of color and
were put in another Zoom room.
Mr. Webb (07:09):
Wow, and how do they not see that as racist?
Paul Rossi (07:15):
Well, it's really fascinating the logistical hula
hoops they have to go through toconvince themselves by their
own framework that they're notbeing racist, but they actually
do have an entire justificationfor all this.
It's circuitous and kind offalls apart when you look at it
too closely, but it really is.
(07:36):
It's really interesting.
And at that meeting, when thefacilitator was talking about
white supremacy, culture and howthings like objectivity was
white supremacy, I realized thatif I didn't say something now I
couldn't live it myself.
So I had to say something.
(07:57):
So I unmuted to a room of 200colleagues and students.
I started to engage thefacilitator in a Socratic method
type of dialogue where I askedthem OK, well, what is whiteness
and how is objectivity white?
And how can that be true ifobjectivity emerged in many
places which were not white aswell as white?
And so you know, two plus twoequals four is not white.
(08:22):
It is undeniably true.
And if it were aliens that camefrom another planet, they would
also see this true.
Maybe they would say itslightly differently.
And so this kind of started,and I was.
I was doing it just so that thestudents knew that not
everybody was on board, becauseevery single one of the faculty,
one after another were sayingall the right things.
(08:45):
They were as if reading from ascript and the kids reading from
a script, and this reallybothered me, and the outcome of
my my questioning was wasterrific.
It was a great success becausethe kids started to ask
questions and then the otherteachers started to ask
questions and it was like a.
It was a prison break.
(09:05):
The ice was broken and, yeah,the upshot of this was that I
was made the scapegoat that this.
The administration Asked me toapologize.
I refused they wanted me to.
They tried to convince me thatI had caused harm to the
students of color by myquestioning, that I had caused
(09:25):
harm to their families and totheir ancestors, that this tip
was tantamount to harassment ofthe students, and so on.
And the more I, the more they,the more I Dug in my heels and
refused to apologize, the moreoutlandish their accusations
became.
So they had the entire, all theteachers at the same time, on
(09:55):
1030 on a Wednesday, recite thescript about how the school,
despite recent events,recommitted to undoing racism
and, and you know that one oftheir colleagues had said things
that were, you know,unacceptable in a zoom meeting.
And so I was walking throughthe halls and I was listening to
every single classroom.
They're saying they're readingfrom the script and the kids are
(10:17):
looking at me through the,through the windows, because
they all, they all, they were,most of them were there and it
was surreal.
Mr. Webb (10:26):
And then I had a student come to talk to me.
Paul Rossi (10:28):
You know there they had the other teachers
throughout this, these twomonths that I continued to teach
there were using me as a.
I heard from some of thestudents that they were using me
as an object lesson and inwhite fragility, they were
telling the students that youknow, mr Rossi was racist.
I had Students in the hallway,you know, mutter racist under
their breath, colleagueswouldn't look at me and so like.
(10:52):
But I realized like the morethis happened, the more I
realized that what I had donewas the right thing and I had a
lot of good people behind me aswell, you know, for support my
wife, my friends and and thatwas really helpful.
Mr. Webb (11:09):
Did anyone at the school students or teachers
Publicly say yes, I feel thesame way.
Paul Rossi (11:17):
Paul's not alone so During the meeting, during that
February zoom meeting, butincluding the woman who who
organized the the session, whowas in the.
You know she was a Student deanand connected to the DI
department, but then she laterhad to recant her words and
(11:37):
apologize for saying that.
You know that my questions wereactually opening up the
dialogue.
So I later had to attendseveral meetings with faculty
administrator.
Where I was, you know one ofthem I wasn't allowed to speak.
I Read a prepared statement butthen, one after another, they
went around the room and andtalked about how this basically
(12:01):
was Traumatic for them toactually even be in the zoom
meeting.
I had one, one teacher Kind ofgot into it during that zoom
meeting.
He was a music teacher at theschool and I Think he was the
most disturbed by my comments.
But you know, to the credit ofsome of the other teachers, they
(12:25):
did stand up for me.
So there was a, there was ascience teacher and one of my
fellow math colleagues said Look, you know, if we're gonna be
this kind of school where peoplecan't Challenge the orthodoxy,
well then we should say thatMaybe it's good that were that,
but we need to be clear thatthat's what we are, because the
(12:45):
the questioning that that mrRossi did Is not unusual and
it's probably held by most ofthe country.
So we need to be able toaddress these questions and If
we're not going to allow thiskind of questioning, then we
should be upfront about it.
And I appreciated that becauseI thought that that was, you
know, at least some kind of youknow it's like, well, let's be
(13:08):
honest here.
If we're gonna be hypocrites,let's, let's, let's be honest
about it.
So the outcome of that I didhave students and parents, you
know, defend me and One studentcame to see me and was terrified
that his history teacher wasgonna see me, because his
history teacher was extremelyleft-wing and this is a student
(13:28):
who had been held back afterclass for defending capitalism
and he was terrified that hewanted to show support for me,
but he didn't want to come in myoffice to do it because he
thought the cameras in thehallways, they were going to be
able to see him in the cameras,so, you know, and his history
teacher would find out and I,yeah, I just figured this is.
(13:52):
This is insanity at a levelthat needs to be publicized.
So I wrote an article, I wrote aletter.
I published it through theBarry Weiss's sub-stack at the
time and it was called commonsense and Then it kind of went
viral and things kind of becamemore and more Public.
(14:12):
I went on several podcasts andI got the message out there.
I was tremendously grateful tothe, to Barry Weiss and to you
know other people for giving mea platform to tell this story,
and it was happening everywhere.
I got thousands and thousandsof emails from private schools,
from public schools All over thecountry, fed up teachers,
(14:34):
people who were scared, studentswho were scared.
I heard from form formerstudents at the school that I
had that were grateful for whatI did and it was a you know I
got.
I got to meet a lot of people atthe beginning of this movement
who are doing great work.
People like Tiffany People,people like you know, no left
turn in education, parentsdefending education and and so
(15:00):
the, the CRT.
You know the gender ideologywas also part of this
indoctrination, but it's alsocritical race theory.
Mainly critical race theory wasthe focus of my piece, and
Something I don't think peoplerealize is that critical race
theory even though you don'thear about it that much, it
hasn't gone away.
It's still going on.
Gender ideology has capturedyou know more of the media.
(15:23):
I but and that's terrible, butit is you know, both of these
things are happening.
We're seeing it at the, atHarvard.
We're seeing it, and it's sortof I guess the fish rots from
the head.
So what happens at the eliteinstitutions goes down into
K-12?
.
Mr. Webb (15:38):
The left says that critical race theory is not
being taught.
Paul Rossi (15:44):
Think of it like this If you don't, it are we
teaching the scientific method,even if we don't have the kids
read Francis Bacon, right?
That's what it's like, right?
So there it is.
It's a disingenuous point.
Mr. Webb (15:58):
I've talked to so many people that, just like your
story I mean that's obviously.
It obviously is being taught.
They just might not be callingit that.
So do you think your story isan isolated incident?
Or do you think there areschools and teachers like
yourself that are experiencingthese things that maybe they're
not brave enough to speak up?
(16:19):
Maybe they feel like they'realone and if they speak out it's
gonna cost them their job.
So they feel like they're justgonna put their head down?
Definitely, definitely, and alot of teachers try to get
through this thing until return.
Paul Rossi (16:31):
You know what my nonprofit, where I we run a
network for teachers calledterra firma, teach we, we speak
to these teachers all the time,we counsel them, we give them,
you know, options a lot of time.
You don't have a ton of options.
A particular private school youhave even fewer Than a public
school because of the contractsituation.
(16:53):
You only get a year to yourcontract, most, almost all,
private schools.
There's no union, so you, youdon't have any job protection
and so the culture, the cultureof silence and denunciation, is
greater at a private school, andthis is one of the issues.
To have a school choice, whichis generally a good idea, but
you know we can get into that.
(17:13):
Um, absolutely, students towhat kills me as a student's
right, because adults, adults,have a hard time dealing with
this.
What do you think students feelabout this?
And I know these students and Iknow that you know hearing from
my former students after I wentpublic.
(17:35):
It's heartbreaking.
You know I have stories thatthat I can't share about what
happened to students that werebullied.
You know that were.
You know social media calledracists For you know these minor
infractions that were seen asakin to, you know, owning slaves
(17:55):
.
And Then in the hysteria, andand also, the black students are
not benefited by this becausewhat happens is they get given a
tremendous amount of power bythe adults who want to let the
quote unquote, let the childrenlead us right.
So you have, you know, for a 14year old is not mature enough
(18:15):
to handle that kind of power.
So they're, they're encouragedto be political creatures Before
they even understand whatthey're being political about
and understand the nuances andunderstand the complexities.
And they, you know, the fist israised, the poetry is recited,
the garb of the activist isdonned and they're sent out into
(18:39):
the world.
And I see, I saw ninth gradekids come in, black students,
brown students, latina, whatever, and they, you know, they come
in happy-go-lucky, cheerfulFriends, making friends with
people not based on the color oftheir skin, and they come out,
these warped, twisted, resentfulcarriers of an ideology and it
(19:04):
will not serve them well.
But the people pushing it don'twant to serve these kids.
They want to change society.
So they want to create, theywant to weaponize kids and I
know it because we've had thoseconversations in the faculty
lounge Okay, and they want tochange the world.
(19:24):
That's their agenda Creatinghigh functioning, resilient kids
who will raise strong familiesand be a good part of their
communities.
That's not part of it.
That's second order stuff andit's really scary and it's
happening a lot of places inthis country now.
Mr. Webb (19:47):
And so, and it's straight up, indoctrination
Right and you know what I've got.
Paul Rossi (19:52):
To be honest, I think that in many ways, like I,
believe in indoctrination.
I'm going to be kind of openabout that.
You can't really reason with aneight or nine year old about
what the great wisdoms of andgreat traditions of our past
right.
You teach them rules Right andlater, when they have greater
(20:15):
reason capacity, they can talkabout why those things are right
.
But you do have to sort ofinculcate habits, behaviors and
some beliefs and trust thatthose things work right.
And the reason why those thingsare wisdoms that last the test
(20:37):
of time is because they work anda child and even many adults
don't know why they work and itcan't always be answered why.
There's not always a way to sortof reason through it if you
haven't experienced why it worksby having tried other things
and have them fail.
But what is the cost of failure?
(20:58):
That's something that noacademic needs to.
As Thomas Solis says, noacademic has to pay the price
for being wrong, but our kidswill, and so you know.
That's why I actually do thinkpeople who want to get into it
about what is indoctrination andwhat isn't you do need to
indoctrinate.
You just need to indoctrinatethem in the right things.
(21:20):
I'm talking about religion perse, but I am talking about
wisdom and objective universaltruths that are true in an ill
context Right, not politicalindoctrination.
Mr. Webb (21:33):
So in the spectrum of indoctrination that's OK, which
may start at home, you know,teaching the values.
Just like you know my kids, Iwant to teach them what my
values are.
I feel like my values are thecorrect values.
I think everybody should feelthat way about their values.
(21:54):
So I want to you can call itindoctrinate, I guess them into
that.
And on the other end of thespectrum is in the public school
setting, political and liberalideology indoctrination.
That's not OK.
Paul Rossi (22:13):
Right, and you know yeah.
Mr. Webb (22:15):
So you mentioned something a minute ago and it's
a question that I was going toask you about.
Once you left the school andgot out of teaching, did you
have some students and teachersthat then said, hey, I couldn't
say anything then, but sinceyou're not, since you're not at
(22:37):
the school now, you know Isupport you and it sounds like
you did.
Paul Rossi (22:42):
Yeah, and I continue to get some emails now and then
from students, my formerstudents, who are in college now
and they see, you know, andthey're starting to question
some of the things that and theywere true believers in our
progressive high school and nowthey're starting to question.
So this is very encouraging.
I was a hardcore lefty incollege, right Like.
(23:10):
I think it's very natural insomeone's 20s to get carried
away with those ideas and theutopianism of certain ideas.
You know, I'm just glad therewasn't an Antifa when I was in
college, or if there was, Ididn't know about it because I
might have joined.
But time has a way andexperience has a way or it has
(23:36):
historically had a way of, youknow, giving people experiences
that lead them to sort of thinkdifferently about things and not
to be so.
Life is not so simple.
That's been gratifying to hearthat Several of my current
students at the time were verysupportive and that was
(23:56):
gratifying.
And their parents as well.
Mr. Webb (23:59):
And what would you say to educators who find
themselves in similar situations?
Paul Rossi (24:05):
Well, one of the things I've learned about the
situation I went through and I'mnot alone, there are several
others you know have come outDana Stanglplau for one, frank
McCormick for another.
There hasn't been a groundswellby any means, but several
teachers have started to comeout.
I can you know, maybe itdoesn't, some of them have filed
(24:29):
legal complaints.
What I would say is understandwhat you're willing to give up
and what is the line that youwill not cross and ask yourself
what that is so that when itcomes you won't do it and you'll
finally say no.
And I think it's very importantto anticipate that and to act
(24:58):
on it when the time comes.
Myself, I knew that I was goingto say something six months
before I did and I was justthinking about what is the
opportunity where I can say in away that will benefit the
children.
And it turned out to be thatZoom meeting.
(25:20):
I wasn't plotting it, but whenthe opportunity came I was ready
, because I kind of loosened thescrews on my silence, if that's
the way to put it.
I wasn't as bolted down as Iwas before.
I guess I had a screw loose orsomething.
Mr. Webb (25:41):
The questions you asked.
Paul Rossi (25:43):
you probably had six months to think about those
questions, yes, but it was animpulse move, I'll be honest,
because the facilitator, who was, all I think, 25 years of age
and a very nice young woman Idon't blame her, I don't think
she's at fault for this insanityshe had said as you look at
(26:09):
this slide on the Zoom, with allthese characteristics of white
supremacy, you may beexperiencing white feelings.
And at that point I was justlike now you've taken whiteness
and created this constructcalled white feelings okay,
which is a demonic formulation,if there ever was one that you
(26:34):
could have a feeling because youwere white.
And what is a white feeling?
And so I asked what is a whitefeeling?
And that was the thing thatkind of cascaded from there and
that was a simple like act ofimpulse, even though it had been
a long time coming.
(26:55):
So don't be afraid to be andalso make plans, like, if you
don't have potentially otherincome as a teacher because you
may get fired, you have to bewilling to be fired.
You may even have to be willingto give up entirely in the
profession, because if it goessideways and you get a
reputation and you work in asmall town, well then you're
done in teaching.
You have to find an alternatesource of income, particularly
(27:18):
if you have a family.
You have children.
I knew I could code right.
I had experience in computers.
So if I lost my job in math, Ihad a fallback and as it turned
out, I didn't need it because Ifound another teaching job in
New York, which is kind of amiracle, and I'm very grateful
(27:39):
to that.
Mr. Webb (27:40):
Can you tell us about?
So you're out of the classroom.
You know, grace, fast forwardto today.
You mentioned the Terra FermaTeaching Alliance, so tell us
about that.
Paul Rossi (27:54):
So we are.
We're a national network,actually international now,
because we have teachers fromBritain and Australia and Canada
, many teachers from Canada.
They have a real tough up thereand we strategize, we offer
peer support, we offerprofessional development and we
don't charge anything for thepeer support and we also do
(28:16):
hiring and placement.
So if a teacher is reallystruggling at a school, we try
to counsel them to stay and topush back in ways that they can
control.
That won't, you know, causethem their job.
So we try to assess the risktolerance of every individual
and we, you know, we kind ofshepherd them through that
process and then brainstorm anddraw on tactics and strategies
(28:40):
that we've developed over yearsto think about what could you do
or how to reach out to allies.
How do you find colleagues thatmight agree with you to get
support within the institutionwithout compromising yourself?
How can you connect with parentgroups in the area, like Moms
for Liberty, your parentsoffending it, you know?
How can you perhaps be aconduit for materials that
(29:03):
parents would want to know aboutif the school has adopted a
quasi-policy or non-policypolicy about, you know, not
telling parents if their childis questioning their gender,
which many schools have in someof them.
In many cases it's actually thelaw.
How can you try to get thatinformation out there?
(29:24):
So there are a lot of thingsthat teachers can do and they're
in a unique position to do it,to move the needle in their
communities on some of thesequestions and push back and try
to change things in theinstitutions.
So we counsel them there andthen we also do hiring and
placement.
So if a teacher is just reallyat the end of the rope at a
(29:47):
school, we have contacts withclassical charter networks or
religious schools or independentprivate schools that are more
traditional and values-based andthey are desperate for good
teachers.
Right, they're desperate forteachers that are believe in
traditional values, you knowwhether they're religious or not
.
This trend you know this isbroader than religion, any
(30:08):
particular religion, and so we,you know we will vet these
teachers.
We know these teachers.
There are teachers and so thatwe can vouch for them and we're
a go-to source for teachers tofind their place in an
institution that will supportthem.
Mr. Webb (30:27):
That's an interesting organization.
I'm not sure that I know ofanother one.
Paul Rossi (30:31):
Yeah, I don't think there is.
Mr. Webb (30:33):
The hiring and placement and counseling.
Paul Rossi (30:36):
That's very it's a unique approach, Also legal like
, so we have lots of contacts inpublic interest firms and pro
boner lawyers that we can getthem to if there's actually
anything actionable within theirschool and in several cases
there are we've been able tohelp some of our teachers with
that as well.
Mr. Webb (30:55):
So what is, what's the goal of TerraFirma?
Paul Rossi (30:59):
You know, we are a.
We don't have a lot of grandgoals, and I kind of like it
that way.
We are very grassroots, veryhumble, we want to help each
individual teacher.
So we take things as a case bycase basis.
I think a lot of largenonprofit organizations, some of
(31:24):
them tend to have a broaderpolitical agenda, and we a lot
of times we've seen someteachers that get caught up in
that political agenda in a waythat doesn't necessarily serve
them, and so we really areteacher focused in that way and
we're totally comprised of K-12teachers.
There's no one outside of thatmilieu.
(31:47):
So we don't have collegeprofessors, we don't have
anybody higher education, andthere is a need for this,
because Heterodox Academyrecently eliminated their K-12
division.
So did FIRE, bonnie Snyder,who's my partner at TerraFirma
she used to be in the educationK-12 at FIRE and so so many of
(32:10):
these big organizations havesort of abandoned that project,
for good reasons, I'm sure, butthere's definitely a need for
what we do.
Mr. Webb (32:20):
Tell us about some of the resources that you guys
offer.
I'm looking at your website andtell us about the sub stack.
Actually, subscribe to that.
Paul Rossi (32:33):
Yeah, we publish articles by teachers for
teachers.
So many of these teachers areunder anonymous handles because
they can't give their names, butit's a way for people to sort
of see what schools are reallylike on the inside.
We also have some strategyarticles about how to approach
problems.
It's important for us to, wethink, get back to a patriotic
(33:01):
view of our country.
We're not perfect, ourcountry's not perfect, but we
have many things that we shouldbe proud of.
And if you raise children tothink that their country is
corrupt, hopelessly corrupted by, say, the original sin of
slavery, then you are not gonnahave a coherent and functioning
(33:26):
society for very long.
So, part of you know, one ofthe things we advocate for is a
strong sense of identity asAmericans from all backgrounds,
and to teach pride and to teachthe habits of democracy, the
habits of viewpoint diversity,the habits of tolerance, is very
(33:47):
important, because once youlose that, it doesn't matter
what's written on a piece ofpaper.
The Constitution might as wellbe gone.
Freedom of speech is enshrinedin many constitutions in this
world, but it's not alwaysfollowed, so we need to
cultivate that as a living, youknow, in the lives of people and
(34:09):
their habits, and so that'simportant to us and we talk
about that on the sub-stack too.
Mr. Webb (34:15):
You said something very important diversity of
thought.
I think you worded itdifferently.
If that's what you were talkingabout, that's an important type
of a diversity that I feel likewe're losing.
We're instead of viewpointdiversity.
We're just, you know, the colorof your skin, the diversity,
(34:39):
equity and inclusion, thatdiversity, part of that, the DEI
, it's not diversity of thought.
Paul Rossi (34:46):
I always compared, like what it was like growing up
.
I mean, a lot of people do this, but as a Gen Xer, you know, I
always think about what it waslike in the 90s.
If somebody said something thatwas totally disagreeing with
you, you know I think about, myfirst reaction would be
curiosity oh, why do you thinkthat?
Huh, you know, as long as itwasn't totally crazy, but it
(35:10):
would be, you know, it would belike, wow, you know, huh, you
know Andrew thinks that aboutthe situation.
I never thought of it that way.
You know, maybe I don't thinkhe's right, but whatever,
Andrew's Andrew Right.
And now we just have, I think,as the anxiety level has
increased in society, people aremore autistic, and I use that
(35:34):
word, you know, not as adiagnostician, but as a sort of
a general societal problem, andthat, you know, we feel
constantly that our beliefs areunder threat and so we cannot
tolerate other beliefs, and thiscould be on the right as well
as the left.
And so, you know, our firstinstinct is no longer curiosity,
(35:56):
which is kind of curiosity, iskind of a luxury.
I didn't think of it that wayback then.
But if you are psychologicallygrounded and you don't feel
under threat, well then you canafford to be curious.
But if your anxiety level istoo high, you can't tolerate a
lot of ambiguity.
You need to have people agreewith you.
And it's sort of like the globalvillage, right?
(36:19):
I mean, people used to say theglobal village was a nice place
to be, but you know, I don'tknow how many villages they've
actually lived in, because thereare some villages that are not
a very nice place to live inbecause everybody's very
closed-minded, and so I thinkwe're seeing the dark side of
the global village now, in thatpeople who are particularly
(36:44):
those that are perpetuallyonline are kind of don't have
that groundedness in theircommunities, and I count myself
as a member of that.
So I'm not going to throw stonesin any particular direction,
but it's a.
You know, if you're going tothink about general trends in
(37:04):
society over the last fewdecades, that's one of the
biggest that I think is having amajor impact on our discourse
and our ability to toleratedifferences, and we need to try
to dial it down.
We need to, you know, dial downthe temperature when you talk
to people, because they're goingto be them and you can be you
and it's okay, they don't haveto agree with you and I try to
(37:26):
teach.
You know I can't teach that tothe kids directly, but hopefully
we can model it and you knowit's.
I think that would work better.
Mr. Webb (37:38):
In the 90s and 2000s, maybe earlier than that, but
this is when I noticed StephenCovey's seven habits of highly
effective people.
I'm sure you're familiar withthat.
One of those seven habits isseek first to understand, then
to be understood, and I feellike that is so rare in society
(38:01):
now, and where we used to betaught in higher education to be
curious, now it's.
They don't say be closed minded, but it's okay.
Here are the list of acceptableviews, and if you disagree,
your speech is violence.
I don't know how we came so far.
(38:23):
I mean, that's just crazy tothink about.
Paul Rossi (38:27):
Well, one thing one thing that people don't
understand about progressivismand education, and it is
incredibly effective and theyhave honed their tactics to the
point where they can come into akindergarten or an you know,
you can have a first gradeteacher and they use these
tactics, which is like using abazooka on a butterfly.
(38:47):
Okay, it's, it's if youactually want to know, you can
go to their videos, that you cansee training videos where they
teach these teachers how to doit and the way they do it is.
There are lots of components toit, but essentially it's.
It takes that curiosity and ittakes it from a, from a place of
curiosity, to a place ofcertainty, and it's not simply
(39:08):
beating them overhead with apolitical idea.
That would be.
You know, that wouldn't work.
Okay, because the kids wouldrebel.
They actually use curiosity andempathy In a way that gradually
leads them down this primrosepath into a hedge maze of
(39:28):
ideology, and it's it's almostlike you kind of have to admire
it in a sick way because it's sowell done.
For example, identity.
What they'll do is they'llstart with you know who are we,
what you know, what are we, whoare you, you know and celebrate
yourself and all of these veryseemingly harmless nostrums
(39:50):
about being a happy person.
And what are the things youlike, what are your preferences?
Well, I like ice cream and Ilike, you know, color orange and
you know I like the Buffalobills, or whatever your,
whatever your preferences are,and that's your.
And then they create aconstruct around it called
that's your personal identity.
And so that's you and yourpreferences and your likes and
dislikes, which is already sortof impoverished view of identity
(40:13):
, frankly.
But it's no longer right.
Right, it doesn't, it doesn'tnecessarily lead to anything bad
yet, but what they'll do isthen they'll move from that into
social identity.
And so, well, how do otherpeople see you?
Well, they see me, you know,and they, they lead.
That's your social identity.
So how other people perceiveyou is important, right, because
(40:41):
then you have expectations andstereotypes for how you're
supposed to be and you know someof those things are.
They don't really see the real.
You do, they Right, and youknow.
But so this is your socialidentity and it becomes a racial
identity, it becomes an ethnicidentity, becomes a gender
identity, how you are perceivedis a political identity, and
(41:03):
then gradually they completelyeliminate the personal identity.
So the personal identity isjust a gateway into the social
identity and then, upon thatplatform of resentment about how
you are perceived, and you knowthey, they tell you, they have
a whole story to tell you backin time in the history of your
(41:24):
people, your identity and howit's been persecuted.
And then they have a wholeprojection to the future for
activism and how to change theworld based on that political
identity.
And so the kids from theearliest ages I think they just
came out with a poll talkingabout how, you know, there's an
incredible generational splitbetween you know, people who are
(41:46):
18 to 29 who think whitenessshould be blamed for the world's
problems, and people older than29 who think that's divisive
and not a good idea.
Because you know, the simpletruth is that indoctrination
works and they're much better atit than anyone on the right.
I can tell you that.
And it's scary because they useempathy is the coin of the
(42:10):
realm.
We're just being good people.
This is their virtue, right?
It's kindness, metastasizedinto this crazy thing which
obliterates all other virtues.
And the kids run with that,because when you're a child, you
think like a child and youdon't reason outside of your
(42:33):
feelings, and they use thefeelings as a platform.
And so one of the things, yeah.
Mr. Webb (42:40):
And you tend to believe what an adult is to you.
Paul Rossi (42:42):
And not only that, but many clueless parents are
saying do what your teacher saysright, because they grew up in
a context where the teacher didknow best and so they've carved
out.
These teachers and of course,not all teachers, but many of
the most politically dedicatedteachers have carved out an
(43:02):
intimacy with your child, ifyou're a parent, and they are
exploiting that intimacy.
And this works at the level ofgender, which we haven't talked
about.
But it really is something thatyou can't worry enough about,
(43:23):
in my view, because education iseverything to a society.
If you think generationally, ifyou think long term and the
ancients knew it right, we'veforgotten it because we trusted
people to raise our children forus, and if you do that, then
(43:45):
you are forfeiting your right toguide your child's upbringing.
I mean, you're passing them offto somebody else for six hours
a day.
God knows what they're tellingthem, right?
So if I get parents who say,well, what can I do?
My school is this, my school isthat, thank you.
(44:09):
Maybe it's not the best foreveryone, but that's the only
way you can be sure because,let's say, you managed to fix
your school right.
What's going to happen in fiveyears when they hire different
teachers or there's a newadministration.
You cannot control that.
You will never be able tocontrol that.
So it's a dark pill for a lotof parents to swallow, and God
(44:34):
bless them.
They're in a tough spot, butthat's really what I see right
now.
Mr. Webb (44:39):
Well, I sure thank you for sharing your story and
there's so many other things Iwant to get into, maybe on
another episode.
If you'd like to come backabout school choice the teacher
ethics standards that's on theTerra Fermi website.
Paul Rossi (44:57):
Yeah, the ethics standards are fascinating
because a lot of teachers don'teven know, a lot of states don't
even know they exist anymore.
But they can be a way to holdon, hold up some of these, some
of these policies to a mirrorand say, look, we're failing our
ethics standards.
So they can be useful useful inthat way as well as being
(45:20):
correct.
Mr. Webb (45:26):
And I usually end the episode with a key takeaway.
So, paul, what's the one thingyou want the listener to
remember, if they don't rememberanything else about this
episode?
Paul Rossi (45:36):
If your, if your listeners are parents, I would
say this don't trust the gradesthat your child is getting,
because the grades have inflatedand they are not generally an
accurate reflection of what theyknow.
So I would say find independentdiagnostic tests at grade level
(46:00):
and see what your child knows.
What do they really know andwhat do they not know?
And many parents would beshocked to find out that their
child is like two grades belowtheir actual grade and what they
know.
Because the state of education,particularly public education,
has degraded so far and eventhough we focused on politics in
(46:21):
this episode, I would say theeven bigger and problems are
just the greater.
Dysfunctions are at the levelof discipline and the level of
declining standards and the factthat most teachers don't know
how to teach anymore.
There are, there have been,several fads which are tied in
with the politics but separatefrom them around the best
(46:42):
pedagogy and these have causedenormous destruction in the
education of youth becausethey're simply that, their fads,
and we need to get back tobasics, not just in viewpoint
diversity and political deeppoliticizing education, but also
in the pedagogy.
So maybe I would love to talkabout that on a future podcast,
(47:04):
if possible.
Mr. Webb (47:07):
Yeah, I'd love to.
As we wrap up this conversation, can you share with us your
share with our listeners wherethey can find more information
about any upcoming projects orbooks?
How to find tear affirmativeteaching alliance, the sub stack
, and we didn't even mention apodcast, but you're involved in
(47:28):
a podcast.
Paul Rossi (47:29):
Yes, we haven't done one in a while, but there are
some great ones in the can thatyou can visit us on YouTube
there.
I do a podcast with FrankBacormick, who is a teacher in
the Chicago area, calledChalkboard Heresy, so if you can
look us up on there, we're onSpotify, we're on iTunes Terra
firma teach.
Our URL is tftechorg and youcan find our resources and how
(47:55):
to join our mailing list andjoin our network there.
Our sub stack is called theethical educator at
ethicaleducatorsubstackcom.
Mr. Webb (48:05):
And how can they connect with you on social media
?
Paul Rossi (48:09):
At Paul D Rossi.
That's Paul D Rossi on Twitter.
That's the best way to find meand you can Victor, you can DM
me there by DM zero.
So if you're a parent or astudent, you have questions, I'm
pretty responsive.
Mr. Webb (48:28):
I'll put a link to your link tree in the show notes
.
I read that link tree, Ibelieve, has all those links you
mentioned, including thepodcast.
I would suggest folks checkthat out.
I'm subscribed to it, um, andit's worth a listen, definitely.
Thank you so much for joiningus today, paul.
It's been a pleasure having youon the conservative classroom
(48:51):
and I know my listenersappreciate you sharing your
story and some of theseresources that you shared with
us.
So thank you so much.
Paul Rossi (48:59):
Thank you, Joey, it's been a pleasure.
Mr. Webb (49:03):
That's it for today's episode of The Conservative
Classroom.
Thank you for tuning in and Ihope you enjoyed it and learned
something.
If you liked what you heard,please don't forget to subscribe
and leave us a review on yourfavorite podcast platform.
That would really help thepodcast out.
Most importantly, share thispodcast with a like-minded
(49:23):
educator, parent or patriot.
You can also connect with us onsocial media and share your
thoughts on today's topic bysending me an email at TheC
onservativeC lassroom@ gmail.
com.
We'd love to hear from you Ifyou feel that education without
indoctrination and teaching thetruth is important to preserve
(49:46):
traditional values and supportmy efforts to keep the
conservative classroom running.
I'm a full-time teacher and dadand part-time podcaster.
I invest a lot of hours and myown, hard-earned money each week
to bring you quality content,but I need your help Check out
the links in the show notes andon the website to support the
(50:09):
podcast with a one-time orrecurring monthly donation.
Every little bit helps.
You can also visit our merchstore to get your own clothing,
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conservative classroom logo orone of our many other
conservative slogans, such asage appropriate does not equal
(50:34):
banning books.
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Keep politics out of theclassroom and more.
If you want to support commonsense and education without
pushing your politics, check outour products with the red
schoolhouse logo on it.
We know it's hard to be openlyconservative in some school
districts, but your silent showof support will let you know
(50:57):
that you are doing the rightthing.
Until next time.
This is, Mr.
Webb, reminding you that youare not alone.
See you next time on TheConservative Classroom.
Teaching the truth.
Preserving our values.
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