October 2, 2025 • 26 mins
Can you create blue oceans after the sale?
In this episode of The Disruptor Podcast, host John Kundtz sits down with Ken Rapp, CEO and co-founder of BluStream, to discuss how to escape pre-sale “red ocean” battles by winning the ownership moment.
Born from a cracked acoustic guitar and a missing post-sale experience, Ken’s Product Experience (PX) playbook shows how to activate, engage, and nurture customers across the unboxing, usage, and care phases.
You’ll hear why e-commerce commoditizes pre-sale behavior, why the first 30–90 days decide retention, and how two-way, context-aware journeys lift repeat purchase, customer satisfaction, and revenue.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
1️⃣ Why the post-purchase window is where growth (and churn) really happens.
2️⃣ The three phases of product ownership: activation (unboxing/onboarding), engagement (usage), and nurturing (care/renewal).
3️⃣ How to design two-way, personalized journeys that time education, prompts, and offers to real usage.
4️⃣ Why asking for reviews too early backfires and what to do instead.
About our guest:
Ken Rapp is the CEO and co-founder of BluStream. He’s a commercialization leader and repeat founder focused on unmet needs, now helping D2C and subscription brands reduce churn and drive revenue by “owning” the product experience after the sale.
Want a Deeper Dive?
👉 Connect with Ken on LinkedIn
👉 Visit BluStream.io for blogs, white papers, and access to the platform
Buyer Experience Mini-Series: The Disruptor's Practical Steps to move from the Red Ocean to the Blue Ocean.
🎥 “Become an Experience Disruptor”
🎥 “Swimming in the Blue Ocean.”
Comments or Questions? Send us a text
***
Engage, Share, and Connect!
Spread the Word: Valuable insights are best when shared. Share this episode with peers who may benefit from it if you find it insightful.
Your Feedback Matters: How did this episode resonate with you? Share your thoughts, insights, or questions. Your engagement enriches our community.
Stay Updated: Don’t miss out on further insights.
Subscribe: You can listen to our podcast, read our blog posts on Medium, Substack, and LinkedIn, and watch our YouTube channel.
Collaborate with The Disruptor and connect with John Kundtz.
Got a disruptive story to share? We’re scouting for remarkable podcast guests.
Thank you for being an integral part of our journey.
Together, let’s redefine the status quo!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Kundtz (00:00):
Creating Blue Oceans after the sale.
Ken Ramps Product ExperienceRevolution.
Hi everyone, I'm your host,John Kunz, and welcome to
(00:22):
another edition of the DisruptorPodcast.
For those that are new to ourshow, the Disruptor Series is
your blueprint forgroundbreaking innovation.
We launched the podcast inDecember of 2022.
Our vision was to go beyondconventional wisdom by
confronting the status quo andexposing the raw power of
disruptive thinking.
(00:44):
And today's guest embodies thatspirit, Ken Rapp, CEO and
co-founder of Blue Stream, wherehe is disrupting the forgotten
post-sale space by helpingbrands build loyalty, reduce
churn, and createhyper-personalized product
experiences.
Today we'll explore howcompanies can discover their own
Blue Ocean by putting productexperience and not transactions
(01:07):
at the center.
Welcome to the show, Ken.
Thank you.
It's great to be here.
It's great to have you.
This should be fun becausewe're sort of dabbling in an
area where we sort ofself-discovered during our prep
call, which was creating blueoceans.
And so, as I think we bothdiscovered, we are big fans of
blue ocean strategy and thewhole concept of trying to not
(01:29):
be swimming in the bloody redocean and really starting to
create an experience and aproduct or service that is a
blue ocean.
And I think that's what we'regoing to be talking about today.
But before we get into that,tell us a little bit about your
background, your education, yourexperiences, how'd you get
here?
Feel free to start anywhere youwant.
Ken Rapp (01:51):
Thanks.
That sounds great.
And yeah, I think you'dcategorize me as an unmet needs
guy.
So I really enjoy finding needsthat we all might have as
latent pain, you know, notreally driving us crazy.
You get you just start livingwith it and you and you get used
to it.
But then if there is asolution, it's acute pain.
(02:12):
And so my history, my careerhas been very lucky to work with
great teams on unmet needproblems or blue ocean
opportunities, as you described,in science and then now in
consumer products and B2B to Cbusinesses.
And so uh very excited to behere on the show.
That's great.
John Kundtz (02:33):
I sort of had the same passion.
I when I was at IBM, we wouldalways tell people you know, if
you're gonna do something newand innovative and different,
most of the times the buyer orthe consumer or the client
doesn't even know they have thatunmet need, as you said.
And so trying to help themdiscover it uh is a key critical
(02:57):
skill in my mind.
So I think anybody that can dothat has got a really good
competitive advantage.
So, based on that, what do youthink are some of the biggest
mistakes business leaders makewhen trying to scale their
companies with a moretraditional approach to building
product a product experiencestrategy?
Ken Rapp (03:16):
That's a great question.
If I could, I'll tell you thestory of how we started
BlueStream.
I'm a rock and roll guitar guyand I have a lot of guitars,
don't tell my wife, but I hadnever owned this particular type
of acoustic guitar, which isvery sensitive to humidity or
the lack of humidity.
And one day I went up to playand there was a big crack in the
(03:40):
body of the guitar.
And I said, Jeepers, you know,I I had so much communication
with that brand, that thiswonderful brand, and I did all
the prep work.
I went to their website,beautiful.
I got campaigns from thembecause once I hit the website,
then we all get information sentto us about products we look
(04:02):
at, whether we want to or not.
They did a good job there.
Went to the e-commerce store,found what I wanted, went and
picked up the guitar, or in anycase, could be shipped right to
my door.
And then what I got was couponsfor like discounts on straps
and cases, and asking if I'dleave a review, neither of which
(04:25):
were really on my radar.
What I really wanted to do waslearn how to play that guitar
and take care of that guitar.
And that really struck me andsome of my colleagues that it's
the after-sale productengagement from unboxing it,
quote unquote, and all andlearning about it, to then using
(04:45):
it and and taking care of itthat is missing.
And, you know, we've done awhat we all have done a great
job investing in gettingcustomers, but we also know that
it's it's 10 times harder tokeep your customer buying than
it is to get a new one.
And so we we are so passionateabout going after helping
(05:08):
companies connect to theircustomers post that post-sale.
So around the productexperience, and then they just
become super fans of yourproduct.
And in this case, I would haveknown that the guitar was in
distress, and I would have beenable to proactively provide the
humidity it needed before it wasa problem here in the cold, dry
(05:30):
Boston winter.
John Kundtz (05:31):
I could relate to that living in the cold, dry,
gloomy Cleveland winters.
That's a great point.
So you buy this super cool,probably pretty rare, probably
fairly expensive, and then allof a sudden, instead of helping
you have an Uber gradeexperience with that, they start
to try to upsell you andpost-sell you on new stuff, but
(05:53):
don't really give you theexperience you needed, which
those things probably would haveall come if you had had, you
know, once you gotten to a pointwhere you you had it, you
learned how to play with it, youlearned how to care for it, and
they sort of nurtured you alongthe way.
Is that sort of the the rightidea?
Ken Rapp (06:09):
It is.
We really see have definedproduct ownership as activation,
which is the unboxing andonboarding, engaging, and then
nurturing exactly your word.
And you can imagine when you'resmall and have a local store,
let's say it's whether it's dogtreats or supplements or beauty
(06:30):
products, you know, yourcustomers come in and your
consumers can talk to you, andyou will know their names and
their pet names, and you canhelp guide them through products
that that you provide in a waythat you can prevent problems
and keep your best customerscoming back.
But as you scale that business,it's harder and harder to have
(06:50):
that personal experience.
So the more successful youbecome, the less connected you
are to your customer.
And so we really see thisopportunity to connect, help
companies and brands connectwith their customer post-sale
around activation, aroundengagement, and around nurturing
the relationship through caringfor the products and their use
(07:12):
of the products as the way tothen drive repeat sales,
revenue, great reviews, andreduce support costs, because
now you can prevent that problemfrom happening.
Because I went back to thatguitar manufacturer, which is a
bigger purchase than whatBlueStream today, our product
experience platform, where we'reusing it across the board and
(07:32):
beauty and wellness and muchless expensive products to start
with, but much more of anongoing lifetime value.
And you know, we the theopportunity to keep the customer
coming back for a more frequentpurchase is just amazing once
you have that connectedcustomer.
John Kundtz (07:52):
Right.
Makes sense.
We always used to say at IBM,it's a lot easier to sell to
your existing loyal customerbase.
I'm assuming it's still truetoday.
It's got to be much, much moreexpensive than trying to sell
more stuff to people thatalready know you and trust you.
But that becomes extremelydifficult in a in this age of
(08:13):
digital marketing, I'm assuming.
Ken Rapp (08:18):
I actually think that talk about disruption, which I
love about your podcast.
Thank you for doing this.
Over the last decade, evenmore, e-commerce really changed
the the pre-sale buyingbehavior.
So we we used to be able to goto a store or know the name of
you know the company and thepeople in the store or the
(08:39):
people we bought from.
Now, if you even after you'vedone all the homework to decide
on that supplement, because thissummer I want to run at 10K at
the end of the summer.
And so I'm going to take I'mgoing to try some supplements.
Even if you used to know thestore that you went to, now you
go online and you type in thename of that supplement, you'll
get a hundred more alternativesat var at a variety of pricing.
(09:02):
So for brands, it's become veryhard in the pre-sale
environment to retain thecustomer to come back to you.
Even Amazon, which we all use,they'll give you 10 alternatives
at the bottom of the screen,even though you thought you knew
you wanted to buy that brand ofsneakers.
And so we really believe thatthe landscape has completely
(09:24):
changed.
So e-commerce disrupted thebuying process, the pre-sale
buying process.
And your point about CAC, youknow, the customer acquisition
costs has skyrocketed becausethere's so much commoditization
and competition in the pre-sale.
But then imagine if you couldconnect to that customer
post-sale and engage them indialogues around the product and
(09:47):
why they bought the product andwhy they're using the product
and and have them freely giveyou information about why,
because they want the brand tohelp them get the most out of
the product.
And we see this curve where thebuyer buys something and it's
those first 30, 60 days whereyou lose them because they don't
they don't have a greatexperience.
(10:09):
And right there and then iswhere you they continue to buy.
John Kundtz (10:26):
Great points.
I agree with that when I dosome coaching, particularly on
entrepreneurs and some uh I'llcall it early stage career
people.
I don't know what the exactstatistic, but I think something
like 60 to 70 percent of thebuyer's decision is now made.
This is an enterprise space, isnow made before they ever talk
(10:50):
to a salesperson.
And certainly in the consumerspace, I'm guessing close to
100%.
We need something, we gosomeplace, we do a search, we
pick it, we buy it until we havea problem, we talk to somebody
in customer service or on sales.
So the key there, I think, fromwhat you're saying is let's
(11:11):
let's make a the buyingexperience is the buying
experience, and that's how itworks today.
And I think people have prettymuch figured that out.
It's really how do you now pullthat, build that relationship
post sale digitally, becauseit's not like you said, it's not
like we're going down to thecorner store anymore, but 99% of
(11:33):
the buying is just I get it.
Next time I need it, I may noteven remember where I bought the
thing the last time.
And so you've got to keep thatbuying experience and post-sale
sort of on top of mind, I wouldassume.
Ken Rapp (11:47):
There's two key statistics that I find amazing
that we all face.
One is that less than 30% ofcustomers actually make it to a
second or third sale, typicallyfrom you these days.
And the other is in thesubscription economy, which is a
massive economy, we all see itevery day, less than 50% of your
(12:12):
customers will be yourcustomers after 90 days.
And so those numbers justcompletely blow my mind because
you work so hard and spend somuch money to get a customer,
and then within three months,roughly, you've lost half of
them.
So simple math.
If I have a cohort of athousand customers who I could
(12:33):
be generating $500 a year from,you're talking about a half a
million dollars, and I lose$250,000 within the first 90
days.
I have to make that up just tokeep my business growing.
What we're super proud of as wework with companies to change
that equation.
The post-sale retention andrepeat buying goes up by 30%
(12:56):
every time that you can engageyour customer after the sale and
help them succeed with theproducts they're buying for the
reasons they have.
And I find that to be reallyuplifting for our team.
And we measure this and helpour customers measure that
post-sale retention and repeatpurchase.
And what I find also to bereally terrific is the CSAT or
(13:21):
the NPS goes through the roof aswell, you know.
And I'll give you an example ofhow technology is helping us.
So the way to use technology inthat post-sale environment is
to nurture that activation or orunboxing and onboarding of your
product.
And what I mean by that is isteach your customer a little bit
(13:45):
about reinforce with educationand tips what the product is
about to help them.
So ask a question like youbought our sneakers, thank you
for that.
Are you planning on jogging inthose sneakers, wearing them
every day, or are you going torun a marathon?
And you know, you get aresponse.
Maybe it's it's I'm gonna jog.
And then asking, geez, how manymiles do you plan on jogging a
(14:08):
week?
Because we'd love to help youtake care of them and maintain
them and and give you some tipsas you get to some of the higher
mileage.
And I say 10 miles a week, I'mgonna try and jog because I'd
like to do a 10K at the end ofthe at the end of the summer.
And then have the dialogues.
The technology allows us topower dialogues, these two-way
dialogues.
The company and brand alreadyknows at 100 miles, it's a
(14:31):
perfect time to change theinserts and cross-sell for some
new inserts.
And so by knowing it's 10 milesa week at about 80 miles, which
is eight weeks out, you know, arecommendation on with a video
educating what's happening tothe foam in the sneaker.
And it's a perfectly timedrecommendation to cross-sell on
(14:53):
those inserts.
And so that's where technologyhas really enabled this new
level of personalization.
Because I might say 10 miles aweek, you might say it's 15
miles a week.
I might not answer in thatfirst question.
I might answer a few questionslater.
Our journeys that we're onactually will be personalized to
(15:14):
us at scale rather than acampaign that'll run everybody
through the same set ofquestions.
Technology is really alsoenabling this very personalized
at-scale experience around forus the post-sale engagement of
your customer.
Excellent.
John Kundtz (15:31):
That that's actually a great segue into my
next question.
So, what is one mindset ormindset shift, so to speak, or
habit you wish every marketingleader would adopt before
pouring more money intoacquisition instead of, as we
have been talking about, fixingretention?
Ken Rapp (15:49):
That's a great question.
I think our marketingcolleagues are doing a great job
with the tools they have.
And this is where we open theshow saying, I'm a blue ocean
kind of guy, looking for anunmet need.
There was not an easy waywithout a lot of human resource
to contact your customerpost-sale and really engage
(16:10):
around the product unboxing,onboarding, usage, and care.
So I would encourage all of us,and I think most of us do, to
measure the churn rate or thelost customer rate, measure the
repeat rate, and measure yoursupport costs.
Three three numbers reallyhard, like sharpen pencils,
(16:33):
really understand after spendingall that customer acquisition
cost funds, the CAC, which Iknow we all measure.
Now go back and measure whatare my post-sale metrics around
churn or or retention, repeatsales on revenue, and support
(16:53):
costs of calls coming in becauseyour customer or consumer
weren't able to succeed on theirown, they needed some help.
And you're lucky if they'recalling, right?
We're all lucky if we get thecall because if they don't call
and they're just upset, that'sworse.
So by measuring those things upfront, applying any kind of
tools and thinking andstrategies of digital post-sale,
(17:16):
you're starting from a positionof measurement and you can see
the impact quickly.
I know most of us in sales andmarketing, we're looking for
ways to test new thinking.
It's been amazing to me howgreat the whole customer base is
that we work with.
If there was something thatcould impact the revenue, our
revenue, and drive you know,repeat sales, we're we're game
(17:38):
to try something.
So A, measure and B, try newthings.
And and we really do believe inthe post-sale.
We have lots of resources,blogs, white papers, you know,
to help you look at how toreally manage that after sale
engagement and affect thebusiness.
The bottom line.
That's excellent.
John Kundtz (17:56):
Great advice.
I agree.
I mean, we used to always sayyou can't fix something that you
can't measure, so you got to beable to measure, but you got to
have the data to be able tomeasure it.
Once you want to measure it,then you can figure out how to
fix it.
And all right.
So you've built Blue Stream tosolve this overlooked sort of
what we're calling, I'll callpost-purchase gap.
(18:16):
What makes your approach, yourdisruptive approach, and
different from traditional CRMsor support models, especially
for marketing leaders, as we'vetalked about trying to scale
loyalty in a very crowdedmarketplace?
Ken Rapp (18:32):
Oh, great question.
I actually think that whatwe're doing requires two-way
dialogues and contextualhistorical view of the personal,
you're that consumer, in orderto know what the next message
is.
And that's what creates the themagic that that we've developed
(18:53):
in our IP.
It's to have ongoing dialoguesthat are based on two things.
As consumers or customers, westart at a beginner level of any
new product, and then weadvance our experience base,
which will drive differentneeds.
I'm no longer a beginner.
I've had this supplement nowfor six months.
(19:15):
I know what I'm doing.
I'm intermediate, or I've beendoing it for three years, and
then I'm using it veryspecifically.
So beginner, intermediate,expert, and then super user.
And then the product itself hasa life cycle.
So supplements might have a30-day pack, or it has some
shelf life, or it should bestored in a particular spot, or
(19:36):
it should be eaten or used withcertain other complementary
products, like with almond milkversus water.
And and so the what's veryunique about what we've done is
we look through the lens of theproduct in the center and the
owner of that product or user ofthat product, the ring around
the center.
(19:56):
And then our technology ismonitoring the customer's life
cycle, their experience leveland skill, and the product's
life cycle in terms of how oftento use it, or is there any
maintenance and care, like theoriginal story of a guitar?
And then we have the rightmessage delivered at the right
(20:19):
time as a result of monitoringvery active and alive.
Our database is actually adynamic database and it changes
and evolves with the responsesfrom that, those consumers.
And I'll give you a greatexample of this.
So, in the unboxing oractivation of a new customer,
rather than sending a questionfor a review before the customer
(20:43):
has even maybe unboxed theproduct yet, or maybe they
needed batteries even beforethey got the box.
So that's another that'sanother story.
But if you think post-hittingthat purchase, you know, in
Shopify or WooCommerce or someother, you know, system, that
you're going to start them on ajourney that gets them to
five-star satisfaction.
(21:04):
At a certain moment in thatprocess, asking the customer how
they're doing is the magic.
Because that's where if theysay they're doing great, you
move them on to the reviewquestion with the link.
But if they're struggling on ascale of one to ten, they're at
a seven or less or a six orless, run them into a
remediation algorithm, whichwill ask them, hey, is it X, Y,
(21:27):
or Z?
Are the reasons why you'restruggling or other?
And if if they say X, Y, or Z,you've got some educational
videos to help them come backinto the fold.
If it's some other thing, sendthem right to your support desk.
And wouldn't you rather talk toa customer who's wants to be
successful but is struggling,rather than have them leave a
bad review or no review.
(21:49):
And then what happens is at theend of that 30-day period,
you're just getting more greatreviews, and those customers are
ready for more engagement andrevenue to your company.
John Kundtz (22:01):
I drives me crazy when before I even get
something, I ordered and it'sbeing shipped.
Before I even get it, they say,Hey, here's the survey.
Tell us how great we did.
I haven't even started to useyour stuff yet, no matter what
it is.
That's fitting advice.
All right.
Well, let's sort of wrap thisshow up.
This has been such great, richconversation.
(22:22):
Again, I always love talkingabout that how people can get
out of the Red Ocean and intothe Blue Ocean.
So it's been a lot of fun.
How can people learn more aboutyou, your product, your
services?
What are your socials?
What's the best way for peopleor our listeners to get a hold
of you?
Ken Rapp (22:38):
Yeah, we'll provide you some links, and but I'm
certainly excited to talk withany of your listeners if they'd
like to have a chat and see ifwe could be helpful.
A, just with some some of ourcontent and information on our
website, Blue Stream, Blue B L UStream.io.
And you can go up there, helpyourself to all of the
(23:00):
experiences that we've got andwhatever we as we're learning
and and growing, we continue topublish blogs and white papers.
And then if you'd like toevaluate your product, we have
some technology that we can inless than five minutes put your
company name in and your yourproduct name.
We call this the JourneyBuilder.
(23:20):
And the product productexperience journey builder will
build for us a roadmap ofengagement opportunities for you
and your company.
And we can just do that and foryou.
And it actually also builds thefirst activation and onboarding
journey that will run on oursystem if you want to try it and
give it a shot with a cohort ofyour customers.
John Kundtz (23:41):
You're eating your own cooking, as we like to say.
All right.
Well, of course, we will putall of those links into the show
notes and any other socialsthat Ken provides.
And so feel free to you knowreach out to him as needed.
I'll Ken, I'll give you thelast word before we wrap up the
show.
Ken Rapp (24:01):
I I'd just like to say thank you to you for really
viewing the world through whatare these unmet needs out there
that you know innovation andnext generation thinking could
really help the world.
And when we look at all of usbyproducts and, you know, the
experience of what we want.
And even though I'm only 35 inhere, my body is much older than
(24:24):
that.
You know, the next generationsthey want personal connections.
They they demandpersonalization.
And so we've got to change thegame and look forward.
And that's what your show isall about.
So thank you so much for havingus on the show.
I appreciate you being here.
John Kundtz (24:40):
I have a couple of links where I talk about the
buyer's experience, a couple ofvideos, and how do you get out
of the Red Ocean and into theBlue Ocean?
We'll include those links in aswell.
All right.
Well, that's it for our show.
Again, I am John Kunz.
Thanks for joining us in thisedition of the Disruptor
(25:00):
Podcast.
Have a great day.
Creating Blue Oceans after the sale.
Ken Ramps Product ExperienceRevolution.
Hi everyone, I'm your host,John Kunz, and welcome to
(00:22):
another edition of the DisruptorPodcast.
For those that are new to ourshow, the Disruptor Series is
your blueprint forgroundbreaking innovation.
We launched the podcast inDecember of 2022.
Our vision was to go beyondconventional wisdom by
confronting the status quo andexposing the raw power of
disruptive thinking.
(00:44):
And today's guest embodies thatspirit, Ken Rapp, CEO and
co-founder of Blue Stream, wherehe is disrupting the forgotten
post-sale space by helpingbrands build loyalty, reduce
churn, and createhyper-personalized product
experiences.
Today we'll explore howcompanies can discover their own
Blue Ocean by putting productexperience and not transactions
(01:07):
at the center.
Welcome to the show, Ken.
Thank you.
It's great to be here.
It's great to have you.
This should be fun becausewe're sort of dabbling in an
area where we sort ofself-discovered during our prep
call, which was creating blueoceans.
And so, as I think we bothdiscovered, we are big fans of
blue ocean strategy and thewhole concept of trying to not
(01:29):
be swimming in the bloody redocean and really starting to
create an experience and aproduct or service that is a
blue ocean.
And I think that's what we'regoing to be talking about today.
But before we get into that,tell us a little bit about your
background, your education, yourexperiences, how'd you get
here?
Feel free to start anywhere youwant.
Ken Rapp (01:51):
Thanks.
That sounds great.
And yeah, I think you'dcategorize me as an unmet needs
guy.
So I really enjoy finding needsthat we all might have as
latent pain, you know, notreally driving us crazy.
You get you just start livingwith it and you and you get used
to it.
But then if there is asolution, it's acute pain.
(02:12):
And so my history, my careerhas been very lucky to work with
great teams on unmet needproblems or blue ocean
opportunities, as you described,in science and then now in
consumer products and B2B to Cbusinesses.
And so uh very excited to behere on the show.
That's great.
John Kundtz (02:33):
I sort of had the same passion.
I when I was at IBM, we wouldalways tell people you know, if
you're gonna do something newand innovative and different,
most of the times the buyer orthe consumer or the client
doesn't even know they have thatunmet need, as you said.
And so trying to help themdiscover it uh is a key critical
(02:57):
skill in my mind.
So I think anybody that can dothat has got a really good
competitive advantage.
So, based on that, what do youthink are some of the biggest
mistakes business leaders makewhen trying to scale their
companies with a moretraditional approach to building
product a product experiencestrategy?
Ken Rapp (03:16):
That's a great question.
If I could, I'll tell you thestory of how we started
BlueStream.
I'm a rock and roll guitar guyand I have a lot of guitars,
don't tell my wife, but I hadnever owned this particular type
of acoustic guitar, which isvery sensitive to humidity or
the lack of humidity.
And one day I went up to playand there was a big crack in the
(03:40):
body of the guitar.
And I said, Jeepers, you know,I I had so much communication
with that brand, that thiswonderful brand, and I did all
the prep work.
I went to their website,beautiful.
I got campaigns from thembecause once I hit the website,
then we all get information sentto us about products we look
(04:02):
at, whether we want to or not.
They did a good job there.
Went to the e-commerce store,found what I wanted, went and
picked up the guitar, or in anycase, could be shipped right to
my door.
And then what I got was couponsfor like discounts on straps
and cases, and asking if I'dleave a review, neither of which
(04:25):
were really on my radar.
What I really wanted to do waslearn how to play that guitar
and take care of that guitar.
And that really struck me andsome of my colleagues that it's
the after-sale productengagement from unboxing it,
quote unquote, and all andlearning about it, to then using
(04:45):
it and and taking care of itthat is missing.
And, you know, we've done awhat we all have done a great
job investing in gettingcustomers, but we also know that
it's it's 10 times harder tokeep your customer buying than
it is to get a new one.
And so we we are so passionateabout going after helping
(05:08):
companies connect to theircustomers post that post-sale.
So around the productexperience, and then they just
become super fans of yourproduct.
And in this case, I would haveknown that the guitar was in
distress, and I would have beenable to proactively provide the
humidity it needed before it wasa problem here in the cold, dry
(05:30):
Boston winter.
John Kundtz (05:31):
I could relate to that living in the cold, dry,
gloomy Cleveland winters.
That's a great point.
So you buy this super cool,probably pretty rare, probably
fairly expensive, and then allof a sudden, instead of helping
you have an Uber gradeexperience with that, they start
to try to upsell you andpost-sell you on new stuff, but
(05:53):
don't really give you theexperience you needed, which
those things probably would haveall come if you had had, you
know, once you gotten to a pointwhere you you had it, you
learned how to play with it, youlearned how to care for it, and
they sort of nurtured you alongthe way.
Is that sort of the the rightidea?
Ken Rapp (06:09):
It is.
We really see have definedproduct ownership as activation,
which is the unboxing andonboarding, engaging, and then
nurturing exactly your word.
And you can imagine when you'resmall and have a local store,
let's say it's whether it's dogtreats or supplements or beauty
(06:30):
products, you know, yourcustomers come in and your
consumers can talk to you, andyou will know their names and
their pet names, and you canhelp guide them through products
that that you provide in a waythat you can prevent problems
and keep your best customerscoming back.
But as you scale that business,it's harder and harder to have
(06:50):
that personal experience.
So the more successful youbecome, the less connected you
are to your customer.
And so we really see thisopportunity to connect, help
companies and brands connectwith their customer post-sale
around activation, aroundengagement, and around nurturing
the relationship through caringfor the products and their use
(07:12):
of the products as the way tothen drive repeat sales,
revenue, great reviews, andreduce support costs, because
now you can prevent that problemfrom happening.
Because I went back to thatguitar manufacturer, which is a
bigger purchase than whatBlueStream today, our product
experience platform, where we'reusing it across the board and
(07:32):
beauty and wellness and muchless expensive products to start
with, but much more of anongoing lifetime value.
And you know, we the theopportunity to keep the customer
coming back for a more frequentpurchase is just amazing once
you have that connectedcustomer.
John Kundtz (07:52):
Right.
Makes sense.
We always used to say at IBM,it's a lot easier to sell to
your existing loyal customerbase.
I'm assuming it's still truetoday.
It's got to be much, much moreexpensive than trying to sell
more stuff to people thatalready know you and trust you.
But that becomes extremelydifficult in a in this age of
(08:13):
digital marketing, I'm assuming.
Ken Rapp (08:18):
I actually think that talk about disruption, which I
love about your podcast.
Thank you for doing this.
Over the last decade, evenmore, e-commerce really changed
the the pre-sale buyingbehavior.
So we we used to be able to goto a store or know the name of
you know the company and thepeople in the store or the
(08:39):
people we bought from.
Now, if you even after you'vedone all the homework to decide
on that supplement, because thissummer I want to run at 10K at
the end of the summer.
And so I'm going to take I'mgoing to try some supplements.
Even if you used to know thestore that you went to, now you
go online and you type in thename of that supplement, you'll
get a hundred more alternativesat var at a variety of pricing.
(09:02):
So for brands, it's become veryhard in the pre-sale
environment to retain thecustomer to come back to you.
Even Amazon, which we all use,they'll give you 10 alternatives
at the bottom of the screen,even though you thought you knew
you wanted to buy that brand ofsneakers.
And so we really believe thatthe landscape has completely
(09:24):
changed.
So e-commerce disrupted thebuying process, the pre-sale
buying process.
And your point about CAC, youknow, the customer acquisition
costs has skyrocketed becausethere's so much commoditization
and competition in the pre-sale.
But then imagine if you couldconnect to that customer
post-sale and engage them indialogues around the product and
(09:47):
why they bought the product andwhy they're using the product
and and have them freely giveyou information about why,
because they want the brand tohelp them get the most out of
the product.
And we see this curve where thebuyer buys something and it's
those first 30, 60 days whereyou lose them because they don't
they don't have a greatexperience.
(10:09):
And right there and then iswhere you they continue to buy.
John Kundtz (10:26):
Great points.
I agree with that when I dosome coaching, particularly on
entrepreneurs and some uh I'llcall it early stage career
people.
I don't know what the exactstatistic, but I think something
like 60 to 70 percent of thebuyer's decision is now made.
This is an enterprise space, isnow made before they ever talk
(10:50):
to a salesperson.
And certainly in the consumerspace, I'm guessing close to
100%.
We need something, we gosomeplace, we do a search, we
pick it, we buy it until we havea problem, we talk to somebody
in customer service or on sales.
So the key there, I think, fromwhat you're saying is let's
(11:11):
let's make a the buyingexperience is the buying
experience, and that's how itworks today.
And I think people have prettymuch figured that out.
It's really how do you now pullthat, build that relationship
post sale digitally, becauseit's not like you said, it's not
like we're going down to thecorner store anymore, but 99% of
(11:33):
the buying is just I get it.
Next time I need it, I may noteven remember where I bought the
thing the last time.
And so you've got to keep thatbuying experience and post-sale
sort of on top of mind, I wouldassume.
Ken Rapp (11:47):
There's two key statistics that I find amazing
that we all face.
One is that less than 30% ofcustomers actually make it to a
second or third sale, typicallyfrom you these days.
And the other is in thesubscription economy, which is a
massive economy, we all see itevery day, less than 50% of your
(12:12):
customers will be yourcustomers after 90 days.
And so those numbers justcompletely blow my mind because
you work so hard and spend somuch money to get a customer,
and then within three months,roughly, you've lost half of
them.
So simple math.
If I have a cohort of athousand customers who I could
(12:33):
be generating $500 a year from,you're talking about a half a
million dollars, and I lose$250,000 within the first 90
days.
I have to make that up just tokeep my business growing.
What we're super proud of as wework with companies to change
that equation.
The post-sale retention andrepeat buying goes up by 30%
(12:56):
every time that you can engageyour customer after the sale and
help them succeed with theproducts they're buying for the
reasons they have.
And I find that to be reallyuplifting for our team.
And we measure this and helpour customers measure that
post-sale retention and repeatpurchase.
And what I find also to bereally terrific is the CSAT or
(13:21):
the NPS goes through the roof aswell, you know.
And I'll give you an example ofhow technology is helping us.
So the way to use technology inthat post-sale environment is
to nurture that activation or orunboxing and onboarding of your
product.
And what I mean by that is isteach your customer a little bit
(13:45):
about reinforce with educationand tips what the product is
about to help them.
So ask a question like youbought our sneakers, thank you
for that.
Are you planning on jogging inthose sneakers, wearing them
every day, or are you going torun a marathon?
And you know, you get aresponse.
Maybe it's it's I'm gonna jog.
And then asking, geez, how manymiles do you plan on jogging a
(14:08):
week?
Because we'd love to help youtake care of them and maintain
them and and give you some tipsas you get to some of the higher
mileage.
And I say 10 miles a week, I'mgonna try and jog because I'd
like to do a 10K at the end ofthe at the end of the summer.
And then have the dialogues.
The technology allows us topower dialogues, these two-way
dialogues.
The company and brand alreadyknows at 100 miles, it's a
(14:31):
perfect time to change theinserts and cross-sell for some
new inserts.
And so by knowing it's 10 milesa week at about 80 miles, which
is eight weeks out, you know, arecommendation on with a video
educating what's happening tothe foam in the sneaker.
And it's a perfectly timedrecommendation to cross-sell on
(14:53):
those inserts.
And so that's where technologyhas really enabled this new
level of personalization.
Because I might say 10 miles aweek, you might say it's 15
miles a week.
I might not answer in thatfirst question.
I might answer a few questionslater.
Our journeys that we're onactually will be personalized to
(15:14):
us at scale rather than acampaign that'll run everybody
through the same set ofquestions.
Technology is really alsoenabling this very personalized
at-scale experience around forus the post-sale engagement of
your customer.
Excellent.
John Kundtz (15:31):
That that's actually a great segue into my
next question.
So, what is one mindset ormindset shift, so to speak, or
habit you wish every marketingleader would adopt before
pouring more money intoacquisition instead of, as we
have been talking about, fixingretention?
Ken Rapp (15:49):
That's a great question.
I think our marketingcolleagues are doing a great job
with the tools they have.
And this is where we open theshow saying, I'm a blue ocean
kind of guy, looking for anunmet need.
There was not an easy waywithout a lot of human resource
to contact your customerpost-sale and really engage
(16:10):
around the product unboxing,onboarding, usage, and care.
So I would encourage all of us,and I think most of us do, to
measure the churn rate or thelost customer rate, measure the
repeat rate, and measure yoursupport costs.
Three three numbers reallyhard, like sharpen pencils,
(16:33):
really understand after spendingall that customer acquisition
cost funds, the CAC, which Iknow we all measure.
Now go back and measure whatare my post-sale metrics around
churn or or retention, repeatsales on revenue, and support
(16:53):
costs of calls coming in becauseyour customer or consumer
weren't able to succeed on theirown, they needed some help.
And you're lucky if they'recalling, right?
We're all lucky if we get thecall because if they don't call
and they're just upset, that'sworse.
So by measuring those things upfront, applying any kind of
tools and thinking andstrategies of digital post-sale,
(17:16):
you're starting from a positionof measurement and you can see
the impact quickly.
I know most of us in sales andmarketing, we're looking for
ways to test new thinking.
It's been amazing to me howgreat the whole customer base is
that we work with.
If there was something thatcould impact the revenue, our
revenue, and drive you know,repeat sales, we're we're game
(17:38):
to try something.
So A, measure and B, try newthings.
And and we really do believe inthe post-sale.
We have lots of resources,blogs, white papers, you know,
to help you look at how toreally manage that after sale
engagement and affect thebusiness.
The bottom line.
That's excellent.
John Kundtz (17:56):
Great advice.
I agree.
I mean, we used to always sayyou can't fix something that you
can't measure, so you got to beable to measure, but you got to
have the data to be able tomeasure it.
Once you want to measure it,then you can figure out how to
fix it.
And all right.
So you've built Blue Stream tosolve this overlooked sort of
what we're calling, I'll callpost-purchase gap.
(18:16):
What makes your approach, yourdisruptive approach, and
different from traditional CRMsor support models, especially
for marketing leaders, as we'vetalked about trying to scale
loyalty in a very crowdedmarketplace?
Ken Rapp (18:32):
Oh, great question.
I actually think that whatwe're doing requires two-way
dialogues and contextualhistorical view of the personal,
you're that consumer, in orderto know what the next message
is.
And that's what creates the themagic that that we've developed
(18:53):
in our IP.
It's to have ongoing dialoguesthat are based on two things.
As consumers or customers, westart at a beginner level of any
new product, and then weadvance our experience base,
which will drive differentneeds.
I'm no longer a beginner.
I've had this supplement nowfor six months.
(19:15):
I know what I'm doing.
I'm intermediate, or I've beendoing it for three years, and
then I'm using it veryspecifically.
So beginner, intermediate,expert, and then super user.
And then the product itself hasa life cycle.
So supplements might have a30-day pack, or it has some
shelf life, or it should bestored in a particular spot, or
(19:36):
it should be eaten or used withcertain other complementary
products, like with almond milkversus water.
And and so the what's veryunique about what we've done is
we look through the lens of theproduct in the center and the
owner of that product or user ofthat product, the ring around
the center.
(19:56):
And then our technology ismonitoring the customer's life
cycle, their experience leveland skill, and the product's
life cycle in terms of how oftento use it, or is there any
maintenance and care, like theoriginal story of a guitar?
And then we have the rightmessage delivered at the right
(20:19):
time as a result of monitoringvery active and alive.
Our database is actually adynamic database and it changes
and evolves with the responsesfrom that, those consumers.
And I'll give you a greatexample of this.
So, in the unboxing oractivation of a new customer,
rather than sending a questionfor a review before the customer
(20:43):
has even maybe unboxed theproduct yet, or maybe they
needed batteries even beforethey got the box.
So that's another that'sanother story.
But if you think post-hittingthat purchase, you know, in
Shopify or WooCommerce or someother, you know, system, that
you're going to start them on ajourney that gets them to
five-star satisfaction.
(21:04):
At a certain moment in thatprocess, asking the customer how
they're doing is the magic.
Because that's where if theysay they're doing great, you
move them on to the reviewquestion with the link.
But if they're struggling on ascale of one to ten, they're at
a seven or less or a six orless, run them into a
remediation algorithm, whichwill ask them, hey, is it X, Y,
(21:27):
or Z?
Are the reasons why you'restruggling or other?
And if if they say X, Y, or Z,you've got some educational
videos to help them come backinto the fold.
If it's some other thing, sendthem right to your support desk.
And wouldn't you rather talk toa customer who's wants to be
successful but is struggling,rather than have them leave a
bad review or no review.
(21:49):
And then what happens is at theend of that 30-day period,
you're just getting more greatreviews, and those customers are
ready for more engagement andrevenue to your company.
John Kundtz (22:01):
I drives me crazy when before I even get
something, I ordered and it'sbeing shipped.
Before I even get it, they say,Hey, here's the survey.
Tell us how great we did.
I haven't even started to useyour stuff yet, no matter what
it is.
That's fitting advice.
All right.
Well, let's sort of wrap thisshow up.
This has been such great, richconversation.
(22:22):
Again, I always love talkingabout that how people can get
out of the Red Ocean and intothe Blue Ocean.
So it's been a lot of fun.
How can people learn more aboutyou, your product, your
services?
What are your socials?
What's the best way for peopleor our listeners to get a hold
of you?
Ken Rapp (22:38):
Yeah, we'll provide you some links, and but I'm
certainly excited to talk withany of your listeners if they'd
like to have a chat and see ifwe could be helpful.
A, just with some some of ourcontent and information on our
website, Blue Stream, Blue B L UStream.io.
And you can go up there, helpyourself to all of the
(23:00):
experiences that we've got andwhatever we as we're learning
and and growing, we continue topublish blogs and white papers.
And then if you'd like toevaluate your product, we have
some technology that we can inless than five minutes put your
company name in and your yourproduct name.
We call this the JourneyBuilder.
(23:20):
And the product productexperience journey builder will
build for us a roadmap ofengagement opportunities for you
and your company.
And we can just do that and foryou.
And it actually also builds thefirst activation and onboarding
journey that will run on oursystem if you want to try it and
give it a shot with a cohort ofyour customers.
John Kundtz (23:41):
You're eating your own cooking, as we like to say.
All right.
Well, of course, we will putall of those links into the show
notes and any other socialsthat Ken provides.
And so feel free to you knowreach out to him as needed.
I'll Ken, I'll give you thelast word before we wrap up the
show.
Ken Rapp (24:01):
I I'd just like to say thank you to you for really
viewing the world through whatare these unmet needs out there
that you know innovation andnext generation thinking could
really help the world.
And when we look at all of usbyproducts and, you know, the
experience of what we want.
And even though I'm only 35 inhere, my body is much older than
(24:24):
that.
You know, the next generationsthey want personal connections.
They they demandpersonalization.
And so we've got to change thegame and look forward.
And that's what your show isall about.
So thank you so much for havingus on the show.
I appreciate you being here.
John Kundtz (24:40):
I have a couple of links where I talk about the
buyer's experience, a couple ofvideos, and how do you get out
of the Red Ocean and into theBlue Ocean?
We'll include those links in aswell.
All right.
Well, that's it for our show.
Again, I am John Kunz.
Thanks for joining us in thisedition of the Disruptor
(25:00):
Podcast.
Have a great day.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.