October 22, 2025 • 42 mins
In this episode, Julie shared with Savannah the grand opening of Fox and Hanger's newest program, Ginger's Closet! Ginger’s Closet was created to bring style, joy, and affirmation to trans folks who may not have the means to purchase a Lookbook on their own. It anonymously connects transgender individuals in need of style guidance and gender-affirming care with allies who want to help.
Go to: https://www.foxandhanger.com/gingers-closet to learn more!
Also in this episode, Julie and Savannah take the topic further with conversation about the journey for gender expansive folks and their discovery of their gender identity. From self-describing labels to evolving in one's gender identifications over time, Savannah and Julie barely scratch the surface when it comes to this topic!
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hi Julie, you look like a Snow
White when she's in the forest singing and all the animals come
to her. Oh, look at that.
Wow, Oh my goodness gracious. I've recorded for my husband's
(00:51):
office and, you know, they're both sleeping, but I brought in
three foxes from my bedroom and one of them is, as you can see,
very, very cozy, those little Bubba that I could stroke.
And all right, that sounds a little weird, but you know what
I mean. And then this one's a little
figure that you could get at Target in the animal section or
(01:14):
at maybe in at the Lords Hall ofScience where it's just.
Like a little resin. Like a realistic model.
Yep. And then this one is a fox mask
that my friend's daughter made me.
A while made you. That's pretty awesome.
Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.
So welcome to a early Sunday morning edition of the Fox News
(01:38):
podcast. And I just want to say you're up
early. Yes, at the 8:00 AM hour.
Me, I'm like, I'm not even getting bothered going to
Starbucks 'cause I'll just come right back home so I can be
ready. So I have to ask, yes, yes.
Why are we up so early? What's going on?
Why the change? All right, well here's the dates
(02:00):
everyone. OK, so Kate and I have been
working on a secret project for over 2 years that is going to be
launching at sometime today. Knowing that today is the launch
date and knowing that I have putall these little spoilers on my
insta Facebook on Fox and hanger.
(02:22):
It's funny I I have a little chuckle about it because Kate
and I are notorious for busting shit out.
Not our lookbook table, but projects since college at the
last minute. OK so basically she has a job
today that she has from this time to that time.
So you and I aligned it so that when she gets out of work, I'll
(02:46):
get out of work and then we'll both work up the secret project
that I'm going to share about right now.
So it's going. To be secret until 321.
OK, OK there. OK, so I'm so nervous.
We have been putting together a secret project, something called
(03:10):
Ginger's Closet, for about all over 2 years now.
So you're probably asking, who is Ginger?
I'm assuming it was Ginger from Pyongyang's island that was my
first choice. All right, first of all, no.
Second of all, I printed out like from the section on the
(03:33):
website that answers this question.
Can I read it for you? Absolutely.
OK, who is Ginger? Ginger's Closet was named after
our client and listener, Ginger,who since 2022 has quietly
gifted countless lookbooks to trans individuals in need.
Through this act of kindness, a question arose.
(03:55):
How many other Gingers are out there ready to give back with
the same quiet generosity? From that question, Ginger's
Closet was born, and after over 2 years of dreaming and
planning, it's finally ready to be shared with the world.
So basically, Ginger's Closets came from the overwhelming and
(04:15):
magical influence and inspiration from trans folks who
have really needed the medicine that comes from our Lookbook
pages but haven't been able to afford our services.
It pairs them with allies and itconnects them together in this
anonymous psychic matching kind of way that shares someone who
(04:40):
can't afford our services with someone who is willing to pay
for a page. So it's the idea of saving one
life with one page at a time. And it's super vulnerable
because, like I said, it's not anonprofit.
It's the idea that people are going to be spending money on
this service that supports social transition and is in dire
(05:05):
need right now. And it has been over 2 years of
how I want to make sure that people have money for the
clothes. Well, is this a nonprofit?
Is it not? What would it be?
And then getting it down to the simplest parts.
And that's the idea that one page and the magic and
(05:27):
individualized attention and theinformation and care that trans
individuals get is enough. Is that magic and that right now
we're in a time in the world where people are crying out
services are being stripped fromthem in terms of medicine, in
(05:47):
terms of laws and what Fox and hangers new initiative really
does. It says, hey, we care about you,
human. We see you and we want to
support you and we want to show you are celebrated and that we
want you to exist. So that's that and Kate and I
are going to work really hard onit and we're going to put it out
(06:10):
to the world. Then it's one of those things
where I know you can relate, youknow, publishing a book or any
of our listeners that have takena big project or worked on
something for a really, really long time and put their all into
it and then they're putting it out into the world.
It's just like there's a part ofme that just wants to publish it
and then in true Scorpio Julie form, just hide under my covers,
(06:33):
draw the shades and be like, well, that was fun.
But that's not what's going to happen.
We're in battle mode and what we're doing is punk as fuck, and
we're just going to see how manytrans people we can help in
addition to the work that we do with all of our other clients,
(06:54):
you know? And for me, an ideal day is when
I can really give attention and work with, through Zoom, get to
know at least two or to three trans members a day, you know,
getting to know people and really understanding their story
and finding ways to support them.
It's a dream come true. So you have any questions I
(07:14):
don't know of? Course I got questions, and when
do I not have questions, comments, or some sort of out of
response? The first thing I want to say,
which I think is freaking so amazing what you're doing, this
idea of quiet philanthropy, which is so cool.
You're absolutely right. In a world where what we thought
(07:37):
were inalienable rights are inalienable, we thought we came
to the surge of the wave, stormed the beach and got what
we needed in social circumstanceand healthcare and visibility
and then the law, etcetera. And that we're seeing that wave
receding back to the ocean in a massive riptide and taking a lot
(07:58):
away in causing possible death. As you know, the metaphor would
be for a riptide drags you out so quick, so fast, it's so
intense. It's very scary.
It could cause death to be able to do something like this with
people who have the means to be a quiet and behind the scenes
(08:19):
and mentor to say, give one pageof one book to one client could
change the world, change their life.
Wait, we hear it on EGT America's Got Taylor all the
time. You had two minutes could change
your life and this is one page could change your life.
And I I loved the concept of it.Thank you.
And it's just it's very vulnerable and I had to get
(08:41):
through a lot of internal. Who do you think you are?
You know, they're going to be like, oh, you're profiting and
all this stuff. And I had to just quiet myself
and say, you know what? This isn't about you.
This is not about you. This is not about Kate.
This is not about the Judgers. This is not about people that
want to take credit. This is about people in need and
(09:05):
people who are investing in humanity and the future of the
world, uplifting during a time where it's really needed.
And there were a lot of steps that took this project into the
forefront and say, OK, we've gota date.
It's going to be today. That's going to be September
14th. There was a lot of steps.
(09:26):
And basically one of the steps was me reaching out to my ADHD
coach and being like, look, I have emails upon emails of data.
I know exactly what I want and exactly what I'm doing, but for
whatever reason, my brain can't get to the point where Kate and
I can put it on the website. Please help me.
(09:46):
And she was able to help extrapolate questions.
I was able to explain in my own very ADD dyslexic kind of way.
I was able to seek out support just reinstating the concept
that we all need help, especially when it comes to
these big Noah's ark kind of dreams and these larger than
life projects. We all need helpers to just be
(10:10):
like, OK, here's how you move the needle just a little bit
more to get you to where you need to be to put this out.
So I just want to say a quiet thank you to Kirsten.
And yeah, I'm very touched. I'm very vulnerable.
And thank you, dear listeners, for appearing this.
And consider my words a call to action.
(10:31):
Check it out at Fox and Hangar and share with your friends.
And if you're a listener, I'm sure there are many that have
heard about my services and maybe even gone on the website
or was following me on social media and thought, wow, that's
really cool. And I know I can benefit from
that, but I can't really afford that.
(10:51):
This is for you. This is a love letter for you,
for those of you that's in the community, in our beautiful
community that just want to giveback, that you have so much and
so much opportunity. Whether you travel to Keystone
or not, whether you have a slew of friends or not, you feel lest
in the area of being able to work with me, you know, and you
(11:14):
really want to support those that can't.
This is also an opportunity for you to be a ginger.
And I know personally so many gingers in my life.
You're a ginger, you little ginger who have supported.
So yeah, that's all I'm going tosay.
No, it's not all you're going tosay because I'm going to keep
talking about it. If you can't just spring this on
me and then be like Savannah, ask me no questions.
(11:37):
These are not the website you'relooking for.
I will not be silenced. Do you have the actual link yet?
Is it boxing hangers.com slash Jim Pierce closet?
How would they find you for this?
Well, you just go on Fox and Hanger and it's one of the kind
of maps you click on the menu. Yeah, or actually you click on.
(11:59):
There's going to be a separate tab for it on the website and
maybe for this episode I can then post the link at the
bottom. OK, yeah, we got.
To show notes, yeah. And the other thing I wanted to
say to to support your Oh no, that always the creative
driving. I'm not worth enough.
(12:20):
Like we're talking about that you know, all yourself by making
a profit, which we know is not true.
And I can attest that because I know and I've spoken to you and
I've texted with you during times when you're doing like a
three page lookbook and you're now an hour 9.
I think the first 2 they were amazing.
I'm struggling with this last four bit and it's been 912 hours
(12:41):
to get it to for wishing to giveit to Kate to do the final
presentational stuff. I absolutely can attest to.
Even with my books. I was like, oh, I shouldn't be
trying to charge people 1899 forthe paperback, but recognizing
that I've put now putting on sixyears of my life for this new
(13:01):
series I'm writing that's a lot,that's my time is super
valuable. It's not just me.
Well, it is made in a corner losing my religion, but it is
made the just writing, writing, writing, hoping it's something
that people want to read and that's the creative process.
But also there's the understanding that we, you and I
as creators or as professionals,while we do it for the love of
(13:26):
it. I mean, this podcast is our love
letter to our audience and to the people in the greater
community that may or may not know who we are necessarily, but
this is all done as just a love letter to our people.
That's why I don't do ads on theshow.
That's why we keep it simple. Well, it's not simple, but we
keep it straightforward. You're like, Nope, this is what
(13:48):
we are doing for you 'cause thisis how we give back.
Right. And so, yeah, so we have to also
give ourselves value because that's our self worth.
And it's taken me years and years and years to actually come
to terms with myself worth. Exactly.
Yeah, it is. And I think that when you create
(14:09):
something like this, like down to the last minutes, we work on
our lookbooks. I want, and I think that this is
a bit of a bit of OCD and, and calling on and calling on good
enough and calling on the idea that we will not send out a
lookbook page or a lookbook unless we feel that it is as
(14:30):
good as it can be, that it highlights the essence of who
this person is, but as well as the logistics stuff.
So we're clicking on all the links and even when the person
gets the lookbook, it could be aminute from the time we send it
to the time the person opens it and then clicks on.
So I like these pants and then they're sold out.
And it's not like a perfect thing, but it's the same with
(14:51):
something like Ginger's Closet where like even you asking, oh,
how could they find you? Did they go to Fox and Hagger,
even that question. And then my answer had my wheels
turning and I have my notepad here where I'm like, oh, create
something on the main website and then have the drop down and
then carry the tube. I'm sorry that no, it's good.
I needed you to say that becauseI want, when we put it out into
(15:15):
the world, I want to be as good as it can get and know that
publishing something like on a website, there's another piece
of this that we don't know yet. We don't know a couple things
that we'll need. We, we, we don't know what has
to be clear. That is unclear.
So we're basically sending something out that never existed
(15:36):
before and based on the experiences we have, once it's
going and based on questions people might ask, then we shape
it better, you know, or someone saying on a lookbook, I like
this, but I'd rather have it be in silver.
Then we shaped it based on that feedback.
But Oh my God, let's move on because.
(15:56):
You're getting uncomfortable talking about yourself, just
like I do for myself. Just going to roll up our
sleeves in addition to our otherclients and the other things
we're doing. We're just going to continue to
do pages and support trans individuals and celebrate them
and yeah, just not look back. You can't go back home again.
Don't look back. You could never look back.
(16:17):
Sounds like some music happening, some lyrics if you
want. But I will leave it there
because I know this is going to be blue winged things.
I don't want to ask you too manyquestions because as of tomorrow
you may have changes already in place.
So with that said, we will put information in show notes.
And it's going to be beautiful, like every time Kate and I open
(16:40):
the website to work on it, you know, the section of Squarespace
that is yet to be published and it will be published by the time
this episode airs, which is veryexciting.
But once we open it up to get started, I just breathe this
like a sigh. And it looks like I'm just
looking at the most beautiful sunset, you know?
And it, it's epic. It's epic.
(17:01):
Thank you for asking the questions and thank you to all
of you prematurely who has gone on the website and who has
purchased pages and who has applied.
Let me just say, projecting it forward a little bit, that this
turned out exactly as we knew itwould and it could, and it is
just free from obstacles and immensely successful.
(17:27):
Awesome. Good luck to you.
Thank you, Colin on courage. I love it.
So creating a beautiful bridge to our topic for today when I
reached out to Ginger, who's also a listener, and I was
trying to figure out who is Ginger?
I was trying to figure out is ita Biome and a write about
Ginger. Read what it is at the top of
(17:48):
this episode. But basically one of the
questions I asked Ginger is a question that I had asked
earlier in our friendship. And that's how do you identify?
I'm not really sure why it came up, but it did come up because I
was trying to rack my brain on how to answer the question, who
is Ginger? And as soon as I asked that
question, they thoughtfully wrote back to me and said, I'll
(18:11):
have to give that a little more thought.
Let me get back to you. So then I flashed back to when
we first met, when we were firstgetting to know each other, and
I asked the same question and I was given the same answer.
And then before they got back tome, I said, you know what?
Forget I asked that question. I know it could vary from
(18:31):
day-to-day. And that was the place that all
these years later when we came back to in terms of their
identity, is that something thatthey wouldn't even say grapple
with? That's a question for them that
they know and they have peace with.
They don't have to choose an identity.
Their answer is so clear. And that's yeah, it does vary
(18:51):
day-to-day, but I'm still me. And I thought that was really
beautiful and it made me reach out to you and be like, I think
I have a topic. Yeah, you.
I think I have a topic that may go beautifully with talking
about Ginger's closet and then get right into it.
And that's just this idea of identity and the cross dressing
(19:12):
experience and really figuring out what that looks like to all
different types of people. And yes, at the end of the day,
you know, we are just ourselves.But we know as individuals,
Savannah, who have really unpacked this experience that
it's more complicated than that.Is it though?
It is. It isn't.
(19:33):
It isn't exactly. It is.
There's a reason why we call thetagline of this podcast the male
to female cross dressing experience understanding it
exactly. It is in like your identity.
We didn't decide that we will define one identities As for all
people. I don't know why I'm trying to
do a presidential interest. Yeah, the idea.
(19:56):
I mean, you know my story. My story was I don't know what I
am because I don't have the language for it.
And I'm like, I'm a transvestite, even though I knew
that word for 20 years and I, well, I don't like that word
because that means training. And then I'm like cross dresser,
that sounds good. I'll do that for 10-15 years.
Then I'm like, but wait, cross dressing, that's a thing, not a
gender or identity. And then all of a sudden you
(20:18):
keep pushing the envelope, pushing the envelope.
And for me it is as you have just said, it is not easy.
It's not obvious. It's not.
It's, you know, so straightforward and clear cut
because it is exponential and every one of us come to it in
our own time. It's always evolving or changing
(20:39):
if you want to say evolving because evolving means you've
gone from X and you are now Y. But it could be ever fluid,
which is like you said today I feel like this, tomorrow if you
like that. And yesterday I felt like this.
But at the end of the day, all encapsulated into the lead to be
the body that is me. And I think that's where a lot
of us struggle. We hear it all the time on our
(21:01):
socials where I hate labels. And I get it because labels are
frustrating, especially when you're trying to set the sign or
you're trying to tell somebody what you are half self assigned.
And they're like, oh, that's what I think this means.
Like, no, that's not what it means to me.
And then there's language and semantics and everything is
different and they're using thisthat way they understand it.
(21:22):
What a person a the person BC isa completely dumb thing or
doesn't have any understanding of what it means.
And now you're becoming a teacher and you're like, can't
it just be me? You know, most quote UN quote
normies don't walk down the street having to describe who
they are at every turn. And that in of itself is super
frustrating. I wish my wish I were to have a
(21:44):
wish was that pre insists our sexuality, our identity would
never come up in conversation. Like people would live life and
we'd all be this big melting potof all different things and not
have to worry about, oh, you're not normal.
You're this thing. We need to get to a point where
a person's sexual identity, a person's gender identity, a
(22:05):
person's interest, for God's sake, can all just be heard.
The tapestry we don't sit there worrying about, oh, you identify
as this, but your genitals are that.
Let me ask you about your genitals.
I'm like, you don't ask any other person about what they
have under the covers, under thehood, but you know, somehow for
us it becomes a topic because ofour quote UN quote identity.
(22:27):
So that's my little soapbox. Sorry for that.
But yeah, that's what I got to say about how difficult and or
easy it can be to find envelope and embrace our identities.
Yeah, there's so much to it, obviously.
What does identity mean in this context?
In the context of a podcast episode, sure.
(22:48):
But then within the episode there's gender identity, gender
expression, and then how cross dressing can be a form of
exploration and it's not always tied to one fixed identity.
And that's something and the search for identity, the search
process for identity can be trying on clothes, personas,
(23:08):
names, the self discovery through experimentation.
I think when you go through the exploration process, OK, and
you're searching and you're trying on all these different
identities and you're playing with different aspects of who
you are, I think it can feel very chaotic.
(23:28):
And I think it could feel the sum like they're just lost.
And I'm also thinking about thisin terms of neurotypical versed
on neurotypical. Sometimes identifying or a
diagnosis provides some calm clarity and allows you to stick
(23:48):
it and be like, OK, now these resources are available to me
or, or I can go to this now or wow, I felt so chaotic.
I didn't know what it was. And now that I've been diagnosed
as autistic or as a parent of someone who has been diagnosed
as autistic, there is such a blessing that can come from
(24:09):
that, from being a parent or being a an individual, whether
they always think that there's something wrong with them and
they always feel othered. And now that they got this
diagnosis, it feels like a way that they can identify in the
world as their human identifier.They could hold this identity's
hand and say this is who I am. Sure as people it can be argued
(24:32):
that we're this, this, this, this, this and this of course.
But there's something really calming and gooey and self
loving about finding an identitythat just calms every part of
your being. I think for me, when I stumbled
on the word bisexual, it felt laced with a lot of historical
(24:56):
shit. It felt there was a lot of
judgment. There was a lot of past judgment
I had on, you know, boys that were labeled bisexual back in
the early 2000s and what that really meant and them not quite
being gay enough and me not feeling like I was that gay
myself. Even the term bisexual, some
(25:17):
people can see it as an overarching gay identity or like
the lost song heroes of the Gay Umbrella.
But like, for me, gay didn't really speak to me.
But the term queer for me, once that came into the narrative and
exploded on the scene back in the day, it could have been seen
as like something like these. Don't use the term queer or
(25:41):
queer meant strange and just allthis stuff.
As soon as I found that word meaning odd, as well as this
kind of bisexual, sexually fluidperson that I feel like I am, it
really made me breathe this kindof sigh of relief and said that
right there, that describes me. It describes my fashion, it
describes my humor, it describesmy desires.
(26:03):
It just fits. And so that's an identity for me
that just fits. And so for me, whenever I have
the chance to like, share who I am to someone I feel I trust or
it feels like I just feel like sharing it, it does feel like
something that I own. Now, another point that I want
to make when it comes to identity is there's not really
(26:26):
A1 size fits all to the definition and can really fit
like what I just said about the queer thing.
But like, years from now, maybe there'll be another word that
rings true or maybe I'm just me.Like that will feel right.
So yeah, another little bit of Bob of goodness that I want to
share to this episode. And it's all your self discovery
(26:48):
is very similar to mine where trying on the word felt, I mean
it felt right at the time, like in 96 when it was the collection
of words I could choose from. I'm like, OK, that seems like if
it's OK, I accept grace and honor that thing and that have
it direct my trajectory going forward.
Because it had me looking in a specific direction for my peers
(27:14):
like other cross dressing men. So that's where I looked and it
was very good thing to have in my pocket.
Oh, there's this thing out of Little Island that they have to.
Have a support group. It's for cross dressing men.
Oh, let me go there. And that was very targeted and
it was for people like me. And then in that support group,
(27:34):
you met some partners. You met some people who
eventually transitioned or were thinking about transitioning.
So they were telling their stories in that support group
setting. And in that way you're able to
see other labels. I remember one time one of the
girls said, yeah, you know what?I just, I'd never stand up to
pee. I was like, I've always sat down
(27:56):
to pee. And I'm like, Oh my God, me too.
So I was like, I was never a percher.
I was never a standard going to the fountain.
You know, it's like, I never thought it was odd.
But when you start growing up and you're like, oh, wait, are
we all supposed to stand up over?
And they're like, why? I didn't know any better, but
now I'm starting to question myself about it.
(28:17):
But when you get validation fromother people who are in a very
silver boat of identity issue, you're like, Oh yeah, I
appreciate associate with that. And then it's the questioning.
I got stymied later how long they needed like, Oh no, I need
to find a cross dressing group because I'm now in South
Carolina versus Long Island. And I couldn't find that group.
(28:39):
And I got really scared and really depressed.
And when I opened that up to a larger gender identity group, I
was able to find it number one too.
I was able to see different stories and listen to other
people and enrich my experience through their experiences and
what they would talk about. And I was able to, but I was
(29:02):
here reject because that's a terrible word, but able to
accept or cast off things that Ifelt worked for me.
So that way exponentially. It's super, super important to
hear other points of view to help shape your truth as it
applies to you. Not because you're going to
adopt everything that's being told to you because that's just
following a crowd because you assume somebody knows better
(29:23):
than you. You really need to indeed say,
no, that really doesn't apply tome or oh, but absolutely, I
totally get that. I feel that that applies to me.
And therefore you have so much more enrichment of mind and body
for your truth, for your identity specifically because
it's so vast, it's so different.Every experience is different.
Every identity is different in nuance.
(29:45):
So you can't just say I'm this labeled and just walk away.
It's always your name tag forever more, because that just
doesn't work. Yeah, yeah.
And I think just the idea that people can be this and that that
can be very unsettling. And for me, I just see it as
very natural and normal. You know, I could be this and
that and a lot of times and mosttimes they're kind of opposing
(30:07):
each other, right? So I can be queer, but I also
identify. I don't even know if I identify
as heterosexual at this point, but her normative maybe that's a
part of me as well. Or I can be really extroverted
and very shy or 1 can be a drag queen and republican.
(30:29):
You know what I be? I think my mind is not allowing
me to come up with the exact contradictions and the exact I
can be this and that to give an example.
And the ones I came up with are not really where I want to go
with it, but just the idea that if an identity and finding your
identity is something that's very empowering.
There's also the idea or waitingfor you right there that be
(30:51):
like, well, this is also true about me finding an identity.
One of the pros is freedom and adaptability and permission to
explore that space, that box or whatever it is.
But one of the cons is defining it too early and the risk of
boxing oneself in and the fear of being wrong.
(31:12):
That could be gender fluid up. That's gender fluid.
It could have this pressure of being wrong once you make
certain power moves like deciding to change your name.
I don't even want to think aboutlike top surgery or surgeries
like that because for me, I havebeen in the case where something
was really true for me, really, really true for me to my core,
(31:35):
until it wasn't. I'm simply saying that there are
cautionary tales when it comes to identities and hitting it so
hard and wanting to go in that box.
Just like if you were to look back at pictures of yourself
where you went through a seriousgoth phase or you're just like,
wow, I really held on to that identity for a while until I
(31:56):
left that identities or I identified as a club kid for
many years. And that is again, a lighter
version than let's say, a trans story.
You know, every trans story is unique and different and we as
people are always evolving and changing.
(32:16):
But even as I say that, it's like, but can you, can a person
really change? And then I'm like, you're damn
straight they can with therapy and a little bit of gum shit.
Gum shit. Oh my goodness.
That's why this topic was something I was really, really
excited to bring to the table. Because it isn't just one thing.
No, it's so much. It's so much.
(32:37):
Even when you're talking about goth experience, the whole
teenage experience is wrought with social pressures.
Yes, right. To be normal, everybody's got to
be wants to fit in with the coolkids.
You have the whole meat girl motif.
I remember abnormal. Like I said, very culture,
culture, reality, the gothsy, the amongst the standards, all
(32:59):
that anarchists. Quoted the non binaries, the
furries like let's just call it,let's just say it there's.
Two components to teenage identity in that way.
One is social. Social to fit in or social to be
outside of it purposefully or because that's where people put
you. So it's up to you to define what
(33:21):
you want to do with that social class system.
So I remember the Goths. I remember them being like, man,
I always thought they were so super cool because they're like,
dude, we don't give a damn. We're vampires right now with
all black in our mascara and looking like Jack Sparrow years
before there was such a thing asJack Sparrow.
So there was that. And I always thought that was
very courageous and very cool. Later it would be the punk
(33:43):
rockers before the Goss, and after that was the skaters.
And they didn't care about authority.
Wrath. I said there's a social aspect
of it, as well as the identifying as well as a
presentation of those things. You're leaning into the social
existence that you're making a statement with.
And trust me, I was not making statements at all when I was
(34:04):
growing up. I was that teenager getting the
hand me downs. I'm not going to pay for those
Levi jeans or those Travis jeans.
You're going to get the ones that the fabric doesn't move.
We're going to have you wear those.
What you want. Adidas Nobody get you tracks
from teamwork. We're not going to get you Nike.
We're going to get you Mikey, right?
Right. Not a swoop, it's a hoop, I
(34:26):
mean. Right, it's just.
Like, I was not that guy that making.
I wasn't making any sort of social commentary when I was
growing up because I was just trying to get through my day to
studies and be a good kid, a good student and right and not
explore because my parents were not wants to be like, Hey,
that's cool view, explore the space.
No, there was you need to be kidstraight lace.
(34:49):
Do the things you need to. Do this.
This is your identity. Open your mouth, sit up straight
and go to school. You're going to be a lawyer.
But listen, I think that when you're a child and when you're a
teenager, you're, you know, I think when you're given a
teenager, you're more likely to rebel from the identity.
(35:09):
And then there's expiration thatcan come, I guess.
Yeah. Not me.
Not me until I went to boarding school.
Now listen. And then not me, but I think
that if you're a teenager and tried something on like an I
gender identity and you can reflect within your teenage
years and say, you know, I was experimenting with this
(35:32):
identity. I think that is so healthy.
And I think that that is so amazing that you got the
opportunity to experiment with an identity.
The fact that maybe that's something that adults might say
looking back on a time, but if ateenager can full circle
(35:53):
experiment and come to the otherside and be like, all right,
that was an experiment that's doesn't really feel right right
now. Like that is a healthy teenager
in my opinion. That is, something was gone full
circle, and it sounds very different than saying it was a
phase. Saying it was a phase, is that
what you said? Yeah.
I hear you, and I agree that there is this.
(36:14):
Oh, you just did it because it was cool, just because it was
trendy. All the kids are doing it all.
You want long hair because all the kids are doing it, or you
want shorter hair because all the kids are doing it.
I face a lot of that with my very conservative parents where
I couldn't ever be outside the box.
It was funny because I was always trying to do what
everybody was trying to do. Everybody else is doing it,
quote UN quote. So my dad would get mad at me
(36:36):
for having long hair because everybody else was having it.
That was just following the crowd.
But then when nobody was doing it, he wanted me to say, you
know, you need to do what everybody else is doing with the
short hair so I could win, especially with my household.
So my upbringing was very much OK, this is the way I'm going to
be in. There is no deviation.
And the expectation was you willbe this and I'm like, alright, I
guess I'll be that. That's why my exploration was
(37:00):
always another reason why I was always in private.
That's why I didn't spread my wings any until late teens,
early 20s. So that way I feel there was
more that could have been done, but I also feel like there's the
more that could have been done in my adolescence, the wake
room. Spread your wings and extend
your hair follicles. You did.
(37:21):
Because I know under this beautiful Savannah wig that I'm
seeing before me lives an extended ponytail.
Take that down. It's my only carry over of I
wish. It's my wish fulfillment of
having long hair in any form. Yeah, this topic is super
diverse. We could argue both sides of the
same argument I'm sure. Especially when it comes to
(37:43):
adolescence. I mean, that's a sticky point.
I would love to have had that freedom as a child to explore
more openly, but yet the social climate would not have allowed
it. My parents would not have
allowed it. But I would love to have felt
more comfortable in my identity as a kid versus Nope, this is
what's been assigned to me and Iwill do that hell or high water.
(38:04):
So I get it there. I also like we're talking about
the phase or something. It's like, obviously most people
who were goth in high school arenot goth as adults, but yet some
do. Some like lean into it, so it's
hard to say otherwise. It's very much a very unique and
personal experience that all of us have and we should continue
(38:25):
to have as we go forward. Yes, I agree.
I agree. And just a larger idea as a
community affirming or challenging identity is another
piece to this that keeps entering my mind during this
conversation. But yeah, it's, I think how we
identify in this world world canbe such a joyful experience and
(38:48):
it can also be a source of tremendous confusion and
tremendous pain. And my prayer for everyone is as
they're evolving as people, thatthere are friends in your
corner. Just need one, just one person
that is able to hold you throughall of the shape shifting and
(39:14):
all of the iterations of yourself that you're exposing
and experiencing and closing andopening.
That there's a consistent soul out there that's loving you at
the core of your being throughout your life.
Everyone needs just one person. And if you have that one person,
(39:34):
you're so lucky because I know not everyone is blessed enough
to have that one person. But I do believe that we are on
a quest to try to find that person and be that person for
ourselves at the same time throughout the way.
Thank you so much for this episode.
I know that shifting the times can be stressful for both of us
(39:58):
when it comes to shuffling things around.
And I think for me and my lack of mathematic brain and time
zone things, I think trying to figure out what time I'd have to
meet so that Kate and I are ableto continue on this journey that
feels like the dress rehearsal right before the play.
You know, there's a lot to do. So I appreciate your
(40:20):
flexibility, Savannah, and I also appreciate.
All the dear listeners that havejust been a beautiful community
for us and for me and my growth and development.
So if you love this episode, feel free to share it.
We encourage it and yes, please,please share it.
And that is the only way that wecan extend our listenership and
(40:45):
help a lot of people feel safe in their identity and feel
comfortable and confident knowing that it's not just this
one thing. It's a a lot of different things
and that you're not alone, so. Thank you.
Thank you and good luck and congratulations.
I look forward to hearing all the successes.
But I say ginger, you say closer, ginger closer, ginger,
(41:08):
closer. She's like so much to do.
So much to do. Always, always, always.
So I better get offline, but I just want to say I love you and
I love all of you and bye for now.
Love you back. Until next time, you can find me
on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing
(41:30):
and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember that's HAUK. And to learn more, go to my
website livingwithcrossdressing.com.
And you can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Fox and Hanger
or at Julie MTF Style, as well as on our website at
foxandhanger.com. Julie, it's your moment.
(41:55):
The Fox and the Phoenix podcast uses Spotify for creators.
Copyright 2025. Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Hi Julie, you look like a Snow
White when she's in the forest singing and all the animals come
to her. Oh, look at that.
Wow, Oh my goodness gracious. I've recorded for my husband's
(00:51):
office and, you know, they're both sleeping, but I brought in
three foxes from my bedroom and one of them is, as you can see,
very, very cozy, those little Bubba that I could stroke.
And all right, that sounds a little weird, but you know what
I mean. And then this one's a little
figure that you could get at Target in the animal section or
(01:14):
at maybe in at the Lords Hall ofScience where it's just.
Like a little resin. Like a realistic model.
Yep. And then this one is a fox mask
that my friend's daughter made me.
A while made you. That's pretty awesome.
Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.
So welcome to a early Sunday morning edition of the Fox News
(01:38):
podcast. And I just want to say you're up
early. Yes, at the 8:00 AM hour.
Me, I'm like, I'm not even getting bothered going to
Starbucks 'cause I'll just come right back home so I can be
ready. So I have to ask, yes, yes.
Why are we up so early? What's going on?
Why the change? All right, well here's the dates
(02:00):
everyone. OK, so Kate and I have been
working on a secret project for over 2 years that is going to be
launching at sometime today. Knowing that today is the launch
date and knowing that I have putall these little spoilers on my
insta Facebook on Fox and hanger.
(02:22):
It's funny I I have a little chuckle about it because Kate
and I are notorious for busting shit out.
Not our lookbook table, but projects since college at the
last minute. OK so basically she has a job
today that she has from this time to that time.
So you and I aligned it so that when she gets out of work, I'll
(02:46):
get out of work and then we'll both work up the secret project
that I'm going to share about right now.
So it's going. To be secret until 321.
OK, OK there. OK, so I'm so nervous.
We have been putting together a secret project, something called
(03:10):
Ginger's Closet, for about all over 2 years now.
So you're probably asking, who is Ginger?
I'm assuming it was Ginger from Pyongyang's island that was my
first choice. All right, first of all, no.
Second of all, I printed out like from the section on the
(03:33):
website that answers this question.
Can I read it for you? Absolutely.
OK, who is Ginger? Ginger's Closet was named after
our client and listener, Ginger,who since 2022 has quietly
gifted countless lookbooks to trans individuals in need.
Through this act of kindness, a question arose.
(03:55):
How many other Gingers are out there ready to give back with
the same quiet generosity? From that question, Ginger's
Closet was born, and after over 2 years of dreaming and
planning, it's finally ready to be shared with the world.
So basically, Ginger's Closets came from the overwhelming and
(04:15):
magical influence and inspiration from trans folks who
have really needed the medicine that comes from our Lookbook
pages but haven't been able to afford our services.
It pairs them with allies and itconnects them together in this
anonymous psychic matching kind of way that shares someone who
(04:40):
can't afford our services with someone who is willing to pay
for a page. So it's the idea of saving one
life with one page at a time. And it's super vulnerable
because, like I said, it's not anonprofit.
It's the idea that people are going to be spending money on
this service that supports social transition and is in dire
(05:05):
need right now. And it has been over 2 years of
how I want to make sure that people have money for the
clothes. Well, is this a nonprofit?
Is it not? What would it be?
And then getting it down to the simplest parts.
And that's the idea that one page and the magic and
(05:27):
individualized attention and theinformation and care that trans
individuals get is enough. Is that magic and that right now
we're in a time in the world where people are crying out
services are being stripped fromthem in terms of medicine, in
(05:47):
terms of laws and what Fox and hangers new initiative really
does. It says, hey, we care about you,
human. We see you and we want to
support you and we want to show you are celebrated and that we
want you to exist. So that's that and Kate and I
are going to work really hard onit and we're going to put it out
(06:10):
to the world. Then it's one of those things
where I know you can relate, youknow, publishing a book or any
of our listeners that have takena big project or worked on
something for a really, really long time and put their all into
it and then they're putting it out into the world.
It's just like there's a part ofme that just wants to publish it
and then in true Scorpio Julie form, just hide under my covers,
(06:33):
draw the shades and be like, well, that was fun.
But that's not what's going to happen.
We're in battle mode and what we're doing is punk as fuck, and
we're just going to see how manytrans people we can help in
addition to the work that we do with all of our other clients,
(06:54):
you know? And for me, an ideal day is when
I can really give attention and work with, through Zoom, get to
know at least two or to three trans members a day, you know,
getting to know people and really understanding their story
and finding ways to support them.
It's a dream come true. So you have any questions I
(07:14):
don't know of? Course I got questions, and when
do I not have questions, comments, or some sort of out of
response? The first thing I want to say,
which I think is freaking so amazing what you're doing, this
idea of quiet philanthropy, which is so cool.
You're absolutely right. In a world where what we thought
(07:37):
were inalienable rights are inalienable, we thought we came
to the surge of the wave, stormed the beach and got what
we needed in social circumstanceand healthcare and visibility
and then the law, etcetera. And that we're seeing that wave
receding back to the ocean in a massive riptide and taking a lot
(07:58):
away in causing possible death. As you know, the metaphor would
be for a riptide drags you out so quick, so fast, it's so
intense. It's very scary.
It could cause death to be able to do something like this with
people who have the means to be a quiet and behind the scenes
(08:19):
and mentor to say, give one pageof one book to one client could
change the world, change their life.
Wait, we hear it on EGT America's Got Taylor all the
time. You had two minutes could change
your life and this is one page could change your life.
And I I loved the concept of it.Thank you.
And it's just it's very vulnerable and I had to get
(08:41):
through a lot of internal. Who do you think you are?
You know, they're going to be like, oh, you're profiting and
all this stuff. And I had to just quiet myself
and say, you know what? This isn't about you.
This is not about you. This is not about Kate.
This is not about the Judgers. This is not about people that
want to take credit. This is about people in need and
(09:05):
people who are investing in humanity and the future of the
world, uplifting during a time where it's really needed.
And there were a lot of steps that took this project into the
forefront and say, OK, we've gota date.
It's going to be today. That's going to be September
14th. There was a lot of steps.
(09:26):
And basically one of the steps was me reaching out to my ADHD
coach and being like, look, I have emails upon emails of data.
I know exactly what I want and exactly what I'm doing, but for
whatever reason, my brain can't get to the point where Kate and
I can put it on the website. Please help me.
(09:46):
And she was able to help extrapolate questions.
I was able to explain in my own very ADD dyslexic kind of way.
I was able to seek out support just reinstating the concept
that we all need help, especially when it comes to
these big Noah's ark kind of dreams and these larger than
life projects. We all need helpers to just be
(10:10):
like, OK, here's how you move the needle just a little bit
more to get you to where you need to be to put this out.
So I just want to say a quiet thank you to Kirsten.
And yeah, I'm very touched. I'm very vulnerable.
And thank you, dear listeners, for appearing this.
And consider my words a call to action.
(10:31):
Check it out at Fox and Hangar and share with your friends.
And if you're a listener, I'm sure there are many that have
heard about my services and maybe even gone on the website
or was following me on social media and thought, wow, that's
really cool. And I know I can benefit from
that, but I can't really afford that.
(10:51):
This is for you. This is a love letter for you,
for those of you that's in the community, in our beautiful
community that just want to giveback, that you have so much and
so much opportunity. Whether you travel to Keystone
or not, whether you have a slew of friends or not, you feel lest
in the area of being able to work with me, you know, and you
(11:14):
really want to support those that can't.
This is also an opportunity for you to be a ginger.
And I know personally so many gingers in my life.
You're a ginger, you little ginger who have supported.
So yeah, that's all I'm going tosay.
No, it's not all you're going tosay because I'm going to keep
talking about it. If you can't just spring this on
me and then be like Savannah, ask me no questions.
(11:37):
These are not the website you'relooking for.
I will not be silenced. Do you have the actual link yet?
Is it boxing hangers.com slash Jim Pierce closet?
How would they find you for this?
Well, you just go on Fox and Hanger and it's one of the kind
of maps you click on the menu. Yeah, or actually you click on.
(11:59):
There's going to be a separate tab for it on the website and
maybe for this episode I can then post the link at the
bottom. OK, yeah, we got.
To show notes, yeah. And the other thing I wanted to
say to to support your Oh no, that always the creative
driving. I'm not worth enough.
(12:20):
Like we're talking about that you know, all yourself by making
a profit, which we know is not true.
And I can attest that because I know and I've spoken to you and
I've texted with you during times when you're doing like a
three page lookbook and you're now an hour 9.
I think the first 2 they were amazing.
I'm struggling with this last four bit and it's been 912 hours
(12:41):
to get it to for wishing to giveit to Kate to do the final
presentational stuff. I absolutely can attest to.
Even with my books. I was like, oh, I shouldn't be
trying to charge people 1899 forthe paperback, but recognizing
that I've put now putting on sixyears of my life for this new
(13:01):
series I'm writing that's a lot,that's my time is super
valuable. It's not just me.
Well, it is made in a corner losing my religion, but it is
made the just writing, writing, writing, hoping it's something
that people want to read and that's the creative process.
But also there's the understanding that we, you and I
as creators or as professionals,while we do it for the love of
(13:26):
it. I mean, this podcast is our love
letter to our audience and to the people in the greater
community that may or may not know who we are necessarily, but
this is all done as just a love letter to our people.
That's why I don't do ads on theshow.
That's why we keep it simple. Well, it's not simple, but we
keep it straightforward. You're like, Nope, this is what
(13:48):
we are doing for you 'cause thisis how we give back.
Right. And so, yeah, so we have to also
give ourselves value because that's our self worth.
And it's taken me years and years and years to actually come
to terms with myself worth. Exactly.
Yeah, it is. And I think that when you create
(14:09):
something like this, like down to the last minutes, we work on
our lookbooks. I want, and I think that this is
a bit of a bit of OCD and, and calling on and calling on good
enough and calling on the idea that we will not send out a
lookbook page or a lookbook unless we feel that it is as
(14:30):
good as it can be, that it highlights the essence of who
this person is, but as well as the logistics stuff.
So we're clicking on all the links and even when the person
gets the lookbook, it could be aminute from the time we send it
to the time the person opens it and then clicks on.
So I like these pants and then they're sold out.
And it's not like a perfect thing, but it's the same with
(14:51):
something like Ginger's Closet where like even you asking, oh,
how could they find you? Did they go to Fox and Hagger,
even that question. And then my answer had my wheels
turning and I have my notepad here where I'm like, oh, create
something on the main website and then have the drop down and
then carry the tube. I'm sorry that no, it's good.
I needed you to say that becauseI want, when we put it out into
(15:15):
the world, I want to be as good as it can get and know that
publishing something like on a website, there's another piece
of this that we don't know yet. We don't know a couple things
that we'll need. We, we, we don't know what has
to be clear. That is unclear.
So we're basically sending something out that never existed
(15:36):
before and based on the experiences we have, once it's
going and based on questions people might ask, then we shape
it better, you know, or someone saying on a lookbook, I like
this, but I'd rather have it be in silver.
Then we shaped it based on that feedback.
But Oh my God, let's move on because.
(15:56):
You're getting uncomfortable talking about yourself, just
like I do for myself. Just going to roll up our
sleeves in addition to our otherclients and the other things
we're doing. We're just going to continue to
do pages and support trans individuals and celebrate them
and yeah, just not look back. You can't go back home again.
Don't look back. You could never look back.
(16:17):
Sounds like some music happening, some lyrics if you
want. But I will leave it there
because I know this is going to be blue winged things.
I don't want to ask you too manyquestions because as of tomorrow
you may have changes already in place.
So with that said, we will put information in show notes.
And it's going to be beautiful, like every time Kate and I open
(16:40):
the website to work on it, you know, the section of Squarespace
that is yet to be published and it will be published by the time
this episode airs, which is veryexciting.
But once we open it up to get started, I just breathe this
like a sigh. And it looks like I'm just
looking at the most beautiful sunset, you know?
And it, it's epic. It's epic.
(17:01):
Thank you for asking the questions and thank you to all
of you prematurely who has gone on the website and who has
purchased pages and who has applied.
Let me just say, projecting it forward a little bit, that this
turned out exactly as we knew itwould and it could, and it is
just free from obstacles and immensely successful.
(17:27):
Awesome. Good luck to you.
Thank you, Colin on courage. I love it.
So creating a beautiful bridge to our topic for today when I
reached out to Ginger, who's also a listener, and I was
trying to figure out who is Ginger?
I was trying to figure out is ita Biome and a write about
Ginger. Read what it is at the top of
(17:48):
this episode. But basically one of the
questions I asked Ginger is a question that I had asked
earlier in our friendship. And that's how do you identify?
I'm not really sure why it came up, but it did come up because I
was trying to rack my brain on how to answer the question, who
is Ginger? And as soon as I asked that
question, they thoughtfully wrote back to me and said, I'll
(18:11):
have to give that a little more thought.
Let me get back to you. So then I flashed back to when
we first met, when we were firstgetting to know each other, and
I asked the same question and I was given the same answer.
And then before they got back tome, I said, you know what?
Forget I asked that question. I know it could vary from
(18:31):
day-to-day. And that was the place that all
these years later when we came back to in terms of their
identity, is that something thatthey wouldn't even say grapple
with? That's a question for them that
they know and they have peace with.
They don't have to choose an identity.
Their answer is so clear. And that's yeah, it does vary
(18:51):
day-to-day, but I'm still me. And I thought that was really
beautiful and it made me reach out to you and be like, I think
I have a topic. Yeah, you.
I think I have a topic that may go beautifully with talking
about Ginger's closet and then get right into it.
And that's just this idea of identity and the cross dressing
(19:12):
experience and really figuring out what that looks like to all
different types of people. And yes, at the end of the day,
you know, we are just ourselves.But we know as individuals,
Savannah, who have really unpacked this experience that
it's more complicated than that.Is it though?
It is. It isn't.
(19:33):
It isn't exactly. It is.
There's a reason why we call thetagline of this podcast the male
to female cross dressing experience understanding it
exactly. It is in like your identity.
We didn't decide that we will define one identities As for all
people. I don't know why I'm trying to
do a presidential interest. Yeah, the idea.
(19:56):
I mean, you know my story. My story was I don't know what I
am because I don't have the language for it.
And I'm like, I'm a transvestite, even though I knew
that word for 20 years and I, well, I don't like that word
because that means training. And then I'm like cross dresser,
that sounds good. I'll do that for 10-15 years.
Then I'm like, but wait, cross dressing, that's a thing, not a
gender or identity. And then all of a sudden you
(20:18):
keep pushing the envelope, pushing the envelope.
And for me it is as you have just said, it is not easy.
It's not obvious. It's not.
It's, you know, so straightforward and clear cut
because it is exponential and every one of us come to it in
our own time. It's always evolving or changing
(20:39):
if you want to say evolving because evolving means you've
gone from X and you are now Y. But it could be ever fluid,
which is like you said today I feel like this, tomorrow if you
like that. And yesterday I felt like this.
But at the end of the day, all encapsulated into the lead to be
the body that is me. And I think that's where a lot
of us struggle. We hear it all the time on our
(21:01):
socials where I hate labels. And I get it because labels are
frustrating, especially when you're trying to set the sign or
you're trying to tell somebody what you are half self assigned.
And they're like, oh, that's what I think this means.
Like, no, that's not what it means to me.
And then there's language and semantics and everything is
different and they're using thisthat way they understand it.
(21:22):
What a person a the person BC isa completely dumb thing or
doesn't have any understanding of what it means.
And now you're becoming a teacher and you're like, can't
it just be me? You know, most quote UN quote
normies don't walk down the street having to describe who
they are at every turn. And that in of itself is super
frustrating. I wish my wish I were to have a
(21:44):
wish was that pre insists our sexuality, our identity would
never come up in conversation. Like people would live life and
we'd all be this big melting potof all different things and not
have to worry about, oh, you're not normal.
You're this thing. We need to get to a point where
a person's sexual identity, a person's gender identity, a
(22:05):
person's interest, for God's sake, can all just be heard.
The tapestry we don't sit there worrying about, oh, you identify
as this, but your genitals are that.
Let me ask you about your genitals.
I'm like, you don't ask any other person about what they
have under the covers, under thehood, but you know, somehow for
us it becomes a topic because ofour quote UN quote identity.
(22:27):
So that's my little soapbox. Sorry for that.
But yeah, that's what I got to say about how difficult and or
easy it can be to find envelope and embrace our identities.
Yeah, there's so much to it, obviously.
What does identity mean in this context?
In the context of a podcast episode, sure.
(22:48):
But then within the episode there's gender identity, gender
expression, and then how cross dressing can be a form of
exploration and it's not always tied to one fixed identity.
And that's something and the search for identity, the search
process for identity can be trying on clothes, personas,
(23:08):
names, the self discovery through experimentation.
I think when you go through the exploration process, OK, and
you're searching and you're trying on all these different
identities and you're playing with different aspects of who
you are, I think it can feel very chaotic.
(23:28):
And I think it could feel the sum like they're just lost.
And I'm also thinking about thisin terms of neurotypical versed
on neurotypical. Sometimes identifying or a
diagnosis provides some calm clarity and allows you to stick
(23:48):
it and be like, OK, now these resources are available to me
or, or I can go to this now or wow, I felt so chaotic.
I didn't know what it was. And now that I've been diagnosed
as autistic or as a parent of someone who has been diagnosed
as autistic, there is such a blessing that can come from
(24:09):
that, from being a parent or being a an individual, whether
they always think that there's something wrong with them and
they always feel othered. And now that they got this
diagnosis, it feels like a way that they can identify in the
world as their human identifier.They could hold this identity's
hand and say this is who I am. Sure as people it can be argued
(24:32):
that we're this, this, this, this, this and this of course.
But there's something really calming and gooey and self
loving about finding an identitythat just calms every part of
your being. I think for me, when I stumbled
on the word bisexual, it felt laced with a lot of historical
(24:56):
shit. It felt there was a lot of
judgment. There was a lot of past judgment
I had on, you know, boys that were labeled bisexual back in
the early 2000s and what that really meant and them not quite
being gay enough and me not feeling like I was that gay
myself. Even the term bisexual, some
(25:17):
people can see it as an overarching gay identity or like
the lost song heroes of the Gay Umbrella.
But like, for me, gay didn't really speak to me.
But the term queer for me, once that came into the narrative and
exploded on the scene back in the day, it could have been seen
as like something like these. Don't use the term queer or
(25:41):
queer meant strange and just allthis stuff.
As soon as I found that word meaning odd, as well as this
kind of bisexual, sexually fluidperson that I feel like I am, it
really made me breathe this kindof sigh of relief and said that
right there, that describes me. It describes my fashion, it
describes my humor, it describesmy desires.
(26:03):
It just fits. And so that's an identity for me
that just fits. And so for me, whenever I have
the chance to like, share who I am to someone I feel I trust or
it feels like I just feel like sharing it, it does feel like
something that I own. Now, another point that I want
to make when it comes to identity is there's not really
(26:26):
A1 size fits all to the definition and can really fit
like what I just said about the queer thing.
But like, years from now, maybe there'll be another word that
rings true or maybe I'm just me.Like that will feel right.
So yeah, another little bit of Bob of goodness that I want to
share to this episode. And it's all your self discovery
(26:48):
is very similar to mine where trying on the word felt, I mean
it felt right at the time, like in 96 when it was the collection
of words I could choose from. I'm like, OK, that seems like if
it's OK, I accept grace and honor that thing and that have
it direct my trajectory going forward.
Because it had me looking in a specific direction for my peers
(27:14):
like other cross dressing men. So that's where I looked and it
was very good thing to have in my pocket.
Oh, there's this thing out of Little Island that they have to.
Have a support group. It's for cross dressing men.
Oh, let me go there. And that was very targeted and
it was for people like me. And then in that support group,
(27:34):
you met some partners. You met some people who
eventually transitioned or were thinking about transitioning.
So they were telling their stories in that support group
setting. And in that way you're able to
see other labels. I remember one time one of the
girls said, yeah, you know what?I just, I'd never stand up to
pee. I was like, I've always sat down
(27:56):
to pee. And I'm like, Oh my God, me too.
So I was like, I was never a percher.
I was never a standard going to the fountain.
You know, it's like, I never thought it was odd.
But when you start growing up and you're like, oh, wait, are
we all supposed to stand up over?
And they're like, why? I didn't know any better, but
now I'm starting to question myself about it.
(28:17):
But when you get validation fromother people who are in a very
silver boat of identity issue, you're like, Oh yeah, I
appreciate associate with that. And then it's the questioning.
I got stymied later how long they needed like, Oh no, I need
to find a cross dressing group because I'm now in South
Carolina versus Long Island. And I couldn't find that group.
(28:39):
And I got really scared and really depressed.
And when I opened that up to a larger gender identity group, I
was able to find it number one too.
I was able to see different stories and listen to other
people and enrich my experience through their experiences and
what they would talk about. And I was able to, but I was
(29:02):
here reject because that's a terrible word, but able to
accept or cast off things that Ifelt worked for me.
So that way exponentially. It's super, super important to
hear other points of view to help shape your truth as it
applies to you. Not because you're going to
adopt everything that's being told to you because that's just
following a crowd because you assume somebody knows better
(29:23):
than you. You really need to indeed say,
no, that really doesn't apply tome or oh, but absolutely, I
totally get that. I feel that that applies to me.
And therefore you have so much more enrichment of mind and body
for your truth, for your identity specifically because
it's so vast, it's so different.Every experience is different.
Every identity is different in nuance.
(29:45):
So you can't just say I'm this labeled and just walk away.
It's always your name tag forever more, because that just
doesn't work. Yeah, yeah.
And I think just the idea that people can be this and that that
can be very unsettling. And for me, I just see it as
very natural and normal. You know, I could be this and
that and a lot of times and mosttimes they're kind of opposing
(30:07):
each other, right? So I can be queer, but I also
identify. I don't even know if I identify
as heterosexual at this point, but her normative maybe that's a
part of me as well. Or I can be really extroverted
and very shy or 1 can be a drag queen and republican.
(30:29):
You know what I be? I think my mind is not allowing
me to come up with the exact contradictions and the exact I
can be this and that to give an example.
And the ones I came up with are not really where I want to go
with it, but just the idea that if an identity and finding your
identity is something that's very empowering.
There's also the idea or waitingfor you right there that be
(30:51):
like, well, this is also true about me finding an identity.
One of the pros is freedom and adaptability and permission to
explore that space, that box or whatever it is.
But one of the cons is defining it too early and the risk of
boxing oneself in and the fear of being wrong.
(31:12):
That could be gender fluid up. That's gender fluid.
It could have this pressure of being wrong once you make
certain power moves like deciding to change your name.
I don't even want to think aboutlike top surgery or surgeries
like that because for me, I havebeen in the case where something
was really true for me, really, really true for me to my core,
(31:35):
until it wasn't. I'm simply saying that there are
cautionary tales when it comes to identities and hitting it so
hard and wanting to go in that box.
Just like if you were to look back at pictures of yourself
where you went through a seriousgoth phase or you're just like,
wow, I really held on to that identity for a while until I
(31:56):
left that identities or I identified as a club kid for
many years. And that is again, a lighter
version than let's say, a trans story.
You know, every trans story is unique and different and we as
people are always evolving and changing.
(32:16):
But even as I say that, it's like, but can you, can a person
really change? And then I'm like, you're damn
straight they can with therapy and a little bit of gum shit.
Gum shit. Oh my goodness.
That's why this topic was something I was really, really
excited to bring to the table. Because it isn't just one thing.
No, it's so much. It's so much.
(32:37):
Even when you're talking about goth experience, the whole
teenage experience is wrought with social pressures.
Yes, right. To be normal, everybody's got to
be wants to fit in with the coolkids.
You have the whole meat girl motif.
I remember abnormal. Like I said, very culture,
culture, reality, the gothsy, the amongst the standards, all
(32:59):
that anarchists. Quoted the non binaries, the
furries like let's just call it,let's just say it there's.
Two components to teenage identity in that way.
One is social. Social to fit in or social to be
outside of it purposefully or because that's where people put
you. So it's up to you to define what
(33:21):
you want to do with that social class system.
So I remember the Goths. I remember them being like, man,
I always thought they were so super cool because they're like,
dude, we don't give a damn. We're vampires right now with
all black in our mascara and looking like Jack Sparrow years
before there was such a thing asJack Sparrow.
So there was that. And I always thought that was
very courageous and very cool. Later it would be the punk
(33:43):
rockers before the Goss, and after that was the skaters.
And they didn't care about authority.
Wrath. I said there's a social aspect
of it, as well as the identifying as well as a
presentation of those things. You're leaning into the social
existence that you're making a statement with.
And trust me, I was not making statements at all when I was
(34:04):
growing up. I was that teenager getting the
hand me downs. I'm not going to pay for those
Levi jeans or those Travis jeans.
You're going to get the ones that the fabric doesn't move.
We're going to have you wear those.
What you want. Adidas Nobody get you tracks
from teamwork. We're not going to get you Nike.
We're going to get you Mikey, right?
Right. Not a swoop, it's a hoop, I
(34:26):
mean. Right, it's just.
Like, I was not that guy that making.
I wasn't making any sort of social commentary when I was
growing up because I was just trying to get through my day to
studies and be a good kid, a good student and right and not
explore because my parents were not wants to be like, Hey,
that's cool view, explore the space.
No, there was you need to be kidstraight lace.
(34:49):
Do the things you need to. Do this.
This is your identity. Open your mouth, sit up straight
and go to school. You're going to be a lawyer.
But listen, I think that when you're a child and when you're a
teenager, you're, you know, I think when you're given a
teenager, you're more likely to rebel from the identity.
(35:09):
And then there's expiration thatcan come, I guess.
Yeah. Not me.
Not me until I went to boarding school.
Now listen. And then not me, but I think
that if you're a teenager and tried something on like an I
gender identity and you can reflect within your teenage
years and say, you know, I was experimenting with this
(35:32):
identity. I think that is so healthy.
And I think that that is so amazing that you got the
opportunity to experiment with an identity.
The fact that maybe that's something that adults might say
looking back on a time, but if ateenager can full circle
(35:53):
experiment and come to the otherside and be like, all right,
that was an experiment that's doesn't really feel right right
now. Like that is a healthy teenager
in my opinion. That is, something was gone full
circle, and it sounds very different than saying it was a
phase. Saying it was a phase, is that
what you said? Yeah.
I hear you, and I agree that there is this.
(36:14):
Oh, you just did it because it was cool, just because it was
trendy. All the kids are doing it all.
You want long hair because all the kids are doing it, or you
want shorter hair because all the kids are doing it.
I face a lot of that with my very conservative parents where
I couldn't ever be outside the box.
It was funny because I was always trying to do what
everybody was trying to do. Everybody else is doing it,
quote UN quote. So my dad would get mad at me
(36:36):
for having long hair because everybody else was having it.
That was just following the crowd.
But then when nobody was doing it, he wanted me to say, you
know, you need to do what everybody else is doing with the
short hair so I could win, especially with my household.
So my upbringing was very much OK, this is the way I'm going to
be in. There is no deviation.
And the expectation was you willbe this and I'm like, alright, I
guess I'll be that. That's why my exploration was
(37:00):
always another reason why I was always in private.
That's why I didn't spread my wings any until late teens,
early 20s. So that way I feel there was
more that could have been done, but I also feel like there's the
more that could have been done in my adolescence, the wake
room. Spread your wings and extend
your hair follicles. You did.
(37:21):
Because I know under this beautiful Savannah wig that I'm
seeing before me lives an extended ponytail.
Take that down. It's my only carry over of I
wish. It's my wish fulfillment of
having long hair in any form. Yeah, this topic is super
diverse. We could argue both sides of the
same argument I'm sure. Especially when it comes to
(37:43):
adolescence. I mean, that's a sticky point.
I would love to have had that freedom as a child to explore
more openly, but yet the social climate would not have allowed
it. My parents would not have
allowed it. But I would love to have felt
more comfortable in my identity as a kid versus Nope, this is
what's been assigned to me and Iwill do that hell or high water.
(38:04):
So I get it there. I also like we're talking about
the phase or something. It's like, obviously most people
who were goth in high school arenot goth as adults, but yet some
do. Some like lean into it, so it's
hard to say otherwise. It's very much a very unique and
personal experience that all of us have and we should continue
(38:25):
to have as we go forward. Yes, I agree.
I agree. And just a larger idea as a
community affirming or challenging identity is another
piece to this that keeps entering my mind during this
conversation. But yeah, it's, I think how we
identify in this world world canbe such a joyful experience and
(38:48):
it can also be a source of tremendous confusion and
tremendous pain. And my prayer for everyone is as
they're evolving as people, thatthere are friends in your
corner. Just need one, just one person
that is able to hold you throughall of the shape shifting and
(39:14):
all of the iterations of yourself that you're exposing
and experiencing and closing andopening.
That there's a consistent soul out there that's loving you at
the core of your being throughout your life.
Everyone needs just one person. And if you have that one person,
(39:34):
you're so lucky because I know not everyone is blessed enough
to have that one person. But I do believe that we are on
a quest to try to find that person and be that person for
ourselves at the same time throughout the way.
Thank you so much for this episode.
I know that shifting the times can be stressful for both of us
(39:58):
when it comes to shuffling things around.
And I think for me and my lack of mathematic brain and time
zone things, I think trying to figure out what time I'd have to
meet so that Kate and I are ableto continue on this journey that
feels like the dress rehearsal right before the play.
You know, there's a lot to do. So I appreciate your
(40:20):
flexibility, Savannah, and I also appreciate.
All the dear listeners that havejust been a beautiful community
for us and for me and my growth and development.
So if you love this episode, feel free to share it.
We encourage it and yes, please,please share it.
And that is the only way that wecan extend our listenership and
(40:45):
help a lot of people feel safe in their identity and feel
comfortable and confident knowing that it's not just this
one thing. It's a a lot of different things
and that you're not alone, so. Thank you.
Thank you and good luck and congratulations.
I look forward to hearing all the successes.
But I say ginger, you say closer, ginger closer, ginger,
(41:08):
closer. She's like so much to do.
So much to do. Always, always, always.
So I better get offline, but I just want to say I love you and
I love all of you and bye for now.
Love you back. Until next time, you can find me
on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing
(41:30):
and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember that's HAUK. And to learn more, go to my
website livingwithcrossdressing.com.
And you can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Fox and Hanger
or at Julie MTF Style, as well as on our website at
foxandhanger.com. Julie, it's your moment.
(41:55):
The Fox and the Phoenix podcast uses Spotify for creators.
Copyright 2025. Yes, nailed it.
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