November 12, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode, Julie tells Savannah all about the fallacies of women's fashion and how the sizing conventions between all the various online, retail, and high-end fashion designers seldom have a universal standard. Trying on a LARGE for one designer may seem like a size 10, but can also be an ego killer. Conversely, our existing women's fashion sizing ego can also cause us emotional stress. Find out how to leave the ego at the dressing room doors and find success in the dress that fits!
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hey, Savannah. Hey Julie, how are you doing
today? Well, the day start off a little
bit strange because I want to bejust like you twin in with the
(00:50):
Starbucks. So I drove over.
I was almost going to text you prior and be like, Hey, could I
get a picture of you with your Starbucks that I was going to
get Starbucks that I could do a little social media cutie
moment. OK with us both like hey about
for court but had to make a stop.
I go there and it's closed. Not only is the drive through
(01:10):
closed but I looked as I was passing and the whole building
has like their chairs up. Is this the end of days?
Did the Rapture really happen? Like it?
Well, I felt like it did. I mean, the fact that, you know,
the rapture, quote, UN quote, happened during the Jewish New
Year and there wasn't many people on the road around
Starbucks on Tuesday, I really felt like I got left behind.
I also faced that two weeks ago because there was apparently a a
(01:34):
burst pipe, a water pipe, and myStarbucks by the house was also
closed a couple weeks ago so I had to go find a alternate
place. What did you do for your
alternate solution for your caffeination?
Well, I thank you for asking because normally I'd just go
home and be like, well that sucked.
But I just had this idea to go get the limp Dick version and
you heard me right, a limp Dick.And that was go to the gas
(01:56):
station and get one of these Frappuccine in the bottom.
OK, so it is a it is a StarbucksFrappuccino and yeah.
And I'm not really like I need coffee to have the face that you
see before you like I do have a friend 1 specifically in mind
that like if they don't get their coffee, then you know,
(02:17):
whatever. But for me, I really felt like I
could use some coffee, I can usesome fuel.
But what happens? No, not what I wanted, but I got
the D list version anyways, and I live to tell the tale.
But I also wanted to tell you one more thing before I ask you
how you're doing. Guess what I'm doing this week?
Going to a Liz Fair concert. All right, I literally knew
(02:41):
you'd come up with something when I said that, but it was
basically an opening for me to say I'm starting clown college.
I mean, you're seriously the real for reals clown college.
So I call it clown college, and I'll tell you why in a moment,
but I signed up for a Clowning around acting class at the
Berkeley Repertory Theatre. I did, and I did it on the day
(03:04):
of me launching Ginger's Closet.And my thought at the moment
around all this work and all this hype and launching this
thing is that I need to come up with something that was just for
me to do. Acting has always been in my
repertoire. And clown college specifically,
I call it that because when I was growing up summering at Cape
(03:25):
Cod, my father and I, from the time I was little till maybe
literally college age, would drive to the dump and drop our
stuff at the dump. And then as we're leaving the
dump, they had this giant white tent that was on the property
and it said clown university on it as we drive by.
And my father would say the samesomething he'd always say.
(03:49):
He'd look at me with a smile andthis like twinkle in his eye.
And he'd be like clown college. Jews don't go to clown college.
And then he, he thought it was so hysterical.
And then he'd like drive on by. Well, because of that memory, I
have since gone on Etsy and got like a clown university T-shirt.
And now his dad is going to clown college.
(04:11):
Well, I couple weeks. OK, I'm so excited.
You don't seem as excited as I am, but whatevs, I may get a
clown. No, first of all, don't.
Make any assumptions because I was going to say let me know
when graduation day is. I think you're saying you said
two weeks. I'm like, well, that's not even
enough time to to buy you an appropriate like, you know,
(04:31):
Hawker or anything. A little horn.
A little horn, yeah. Look, my teddy is Hong Kong.
I'm so excited. Do you love it?
You're going to know a clown, a Jewish clown, and I've always
been a clown, Scott says. Why clown college?
Why are you becoming a clown? I said, honey, I've always been
a clown. Which actually seems more.
Like Lucille Ball? It tracks.
(04:54):
It tracks. And actually, I was going to
say, man, if you really want to graduate clown college and then
maybe you start going to Growlings and start doing some
stage improv and be insanity. I mean, not for nothing, but I
wasn't an improv troupe when Renmi was very little.
It was very sexist and I didn't understand.
Like I couldn't do political humor.
(05:16):
I just, no, it wasn't for me. But basically, you know it.
She loves it. I'm becoming a cloud of living
my dreams. I need to be playful.
Shoot. Anyways, how are you?
Definitely not living my dreams to that scale, that's for sure.
I'm barely able to get through, you know, my my work while I was
go to university diversity. Yeah, everything's good.
(05:38):
Had a little, as I was telling you off air had a little bit of
a set back with my editing process for my books.
But I am pivoting and shifting gears and making things happen.
Shout out to my girl squad. A lot of them are traveling this
week. Obviously, by the time they get
this and they hear this, they'llbe safely back home.
(05:59):
Godspeed to them. And I finally, and again, this
will be obviously after the fact, but I finally pulled the
trigger on our theme costume forthe office this year.
Me, Emily and Mandy, we decided early in the year what theme I
was going to be by finally pulled the trigger on the
outfit. I'm going to be Belle for Beauty
(06:21):
and the Beast. Oh.
My God it. Was going to be a Cinderella or
that, but I felt like I was moreof a Belle.
Thank you. And Emily is going to be Snow
White, and she already showed meher costume with the hair and
Mandy's kind of costume. She's going to make some changes
and she's going to be a Rapunzel.
Wait from Tangled? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I I mean, it's pretty sad. Whenever I think of Disney
(06:43):
princesses, I always think of the villains.
Like the narcissistic mother from Tangled.
Mother knows best, mother knows best.
Listen to your mother. It's like Oh my God, triggers
but amazing. And Ursula.
But Speaking of Belle, I love Belle because she reads books
(07:03):
and she's not like the other girls.
That's right, That's right. She does read the books and I
write the books that make the whole world sing and it's all
appropriate. And the only thing I'm worried
about, only thing I'm worried about is the same thing we're
about every year is the fit of the dress when it comes in from
Amazon. Instead of going, I'm going to
(07:23):
get a 1X. I went with unfortunately a 3X
to start off with because sometimes they're stretched,
sometimes there's not stretched,sometimes it's crux shooting.
You got to return a bunch of things like I did last year.
We had our Powerpuff Girls. So yeah, starting large and in
charge and we will see. It's supposed to come in on
October 3rd. So I'm excited to see it and put
(07:45):
it on and be the bell quote UN quote of the ball.
First of all, speak in ball. Shout out to the Rivers City
gems who just had their sparkle ball last night.
That's all I have to say. Second of all, thank you so much
for bringing this up because yougave me a perfect alley oop to
(08:06):
our topic today. Which is what?
Today we are going to unpack anddevelop an understanding for the
idea of processing individuals being in semi denial when it
comes to sizing for their feminine body.
So OK. Do you know what?
(08:26):
That means. Oh oh, I know what it means,
I've been there many old times. So I'll be very curious how this
is going to turn out for sure. Yeah, and how I came up with
this topic idea. First of all, there was such an
outpour from the accessories episodes that we did that I
realized that I have, you know, stylistic things to offer as
(08:47):
well in terms of understandings.So that's where this came from,
as well as the idea that I was sitting with the style
questionnaire that came in and like dozens of them.
The sizing that they said they were in dresses and skirts and
even in tops was way different than the sizing the actually
(09:09):
were when you broke it down in terms of numbers and
measurements. So it allowed me to think a
little bit deeper rather than just kind of the number of it
all, because as we know, there'sno real true size.
It can vary. You really do have to try things
on. But the idea our ego would like
(09:29):
to aim for that smaller size because it boosts the ego.
It makes us feel like we are part of the cool Girls Club.
It makes us feel like the cool girls.
They're thin and they're taut and they're tight and you know,
I like my dresses to fit a little bit tight.
So the facts tight and the fact that I can actually zipper it
(09:50):
up, I can't breathe, might have cracked a rib, but I can
actually zipper it up is part ofthis experience.
They may not be comfortable, it may not be in their size.
They may be putting something ontheir body that is 3 sizes too
small. But because they can zipper it
up, not comfortably, but it zips, that sends a message to
(10:11):
the brain that says it fits. This is my size.
So before I say more and unpack all of my knowledge when it
comes to this, please Savannah, I would love to hear about some
of your experiences as it relates to this topic.
Well I'm going to say a couple things.
The first being 3432 men don't have these.
(10:33):
Problem was like if I need to know what my pair of jeans is, I
just go to the inseam and the waist size and I'm ready.
I don't understand why women's clothing is a freaking free for
all where a size 12 in one makeror designer is an 18 and
somebody else. God knows we've all done the
Amazon purchasing where we know we came from China, but it says
(10:57):
a 14 but it feels like it's AUS size 4.
And we're like, why can't I get my one leg into this dress?
So I totally get the absurdity of what women have to go through
when it comes to the size, the right size, the fact that that
size is not universal. The fact that if you go to some
(11:17):
place like Torrid, it starts at 0 and 00 and the size is its own
creation. And I understand why.
Like you said, psychological look what size I am feel to make
you feel good about it. But the factors of no universal
causality to how women's fashionis is for I guess for men who
grew up with like I know what this is and it is the same all
(11:37):
over. Yeah, I I don't get it.
I know it's a struggle. I've had the struggle.
God knows as as I've gained weight over the last few years,
I keep saying I'm a 10/12 and then every time I turn around
that 1012 is now a 14/16/18. It really may not be a true
eighteen from what I remember 18to be, but because everything is
so sliding a scale and you neverget to target unless you, like
(12:00):
you said earlier, you have to try everything on otherwise
you'll never know. I mean, when you were here and
we went to Ross Dress for Less, you, me and Judy, all the
sciences were a complete nightmare of what fate, what
didn't fit, what worked, what didn't work.
So yeah, it's super, super important to not just know where
you are, but know all the fallacies surrounding it.
(12:21):
Right. And just a couple things.
Most people shop online. They just do.
They really do. And so rather than having this
pink cloud, I'm just going to guess and then I'm going to get
it and I'm not going to return it because I'm so shameful and
this vicious cycle. You need to be honest with
yourself when it comes to your own personal measurements.
(12:45):
A big part of my work is really helping people with their
measurements and what they're sizing.
But this is something that people can absolutely do at
home. But before I get into kind of
the brass tacks of the differentmeasurements, I want to mention
that I totally understand and validate how something like this
could happen. The desire to see oneself in a
(13:05):
certain feminine ideal that feels very on point with the
female experience. You know, the influence of
marketing and beauty and those beauty standards.
I totally understand. I mean we, you and I, whether
whether or not we were born withthe same biology or not, you and
I are still attracted and deeplyinfluenced by femininity.
(13:28):
I mean, I think about me being influenced in this way as I was
younger, but especially kind of a later in life cross dressing
individual is really an increasein size could feel deeply as
they're fat or they're not sexy or in their mind.
There's this very clear disassociation between the woman
(13:49):
and this is huge, everyone huge between the fantasy woman that
they see themselves to be and who they actually are.
And I'm not talking about the fantasy you have when you look
at some woman and you're just like, I want to know what it's
like to be her. I'm actually talking about this
and you probably know the term right off the top of your head.
(14:09):
And if you don't, you're at least familiar with it.
And that's this kind of dysphoria.
I don't know what the word is for it, where you have this
sense that you are actually making this up.
A lesbian woman with breasts, even though that is not the case
in actuality. In actuality, you may be
quadruple the size, you may be alarger framed individual.
(14:32):
You may be a heavyset individual, but in the marrow of
your being there is a very inherent truth and I don't know
if it's a past life connection. Again, Savannah, you would know
a lot more about this than I would.
I have experienced this with several clients where they
actually have this belief systemthat they are this person.
And so when it comes to that belief system and me as a image
(14:56):
consultant architect for the feminine, if you will, when it
comes to me manifesting and creating a visual that's in
alignment with this person, it can be very, I can, it could be
very hard for the cross dressingindividual because it's not in
alignment with the body that they feel and they want to
reflect this image, but it's notwho they are in the flesh.
(15:19):
Absolutely. It has been a lifelong issue of
mine. You know, when you're young, you
know, you kind of embody the clothes and you do the best you
can. I was athletic enough to not
really see it as a problem. I didn't have an obesity issue
where everything I would try on might look terrible and in the
image of my head would never reflect that.
(15:40):
So I was lucky enough growing upto be somewhat more thin and
athletic that it did really deter me.
When I got to the 90s and started doing the clubs, I was
at 1012. Going back to what I said
earlier, I was at 10:12 and I was able to feel really sexy in
the club club dresses that was able to do and the people around
(16:01):
me were very supportive of that.And as I've gone, and as I've
gone further down the road and closer to my age and metabolism
changes and body changes, all those types of things have
negatively impacted me about one, what I remember my size to
be. And fighting that battle like,
(16:24):
well, I should just go on a dietso I can get back there.
I need to get back there. I need to be where I was more
comfortable with how I looked. And fighting that against the
realization of, yeah, you're in your 50s now and metabolism is
not the same. Yes, you should make some
dietary changes. Maybe you can walk more.
Is that going to magically narrow my shoulders?
Is that going to magically get rid of my my little bit of a
(16:45):
belly? What do you want to do about it
or not do about it? So that's the the physicality of
it all. Absolutely.
In terms of the mentality of it all.
I never came at it with a specific feminine ideology.
But yet I had so many influencesgrowing up.
Lindy Anderson. Lynda Carter, Adrian Barbeau,
(17:08):
Farrah Fawcett, 70s and 80s vibeto it with also a sprinkling of
syndicated television of June Cleavers, Morticia Adams,
entertainment figures or characters that also influenced
my style or the look I was goingfor.
And as I matured and as I got into my late teens and 20's, the
(17:30):
Seventies, 80s, early 90s were very big, especially for comics
that every woman was so legally drawn, a huge breast, big hips,
big thighs. It was all very exaggerated.
And then finally, you know, as we hit the 2000, even those
writers and drawers of comics started to be a little more
(17:51):
realistic in the portrayal of women.
So I kind of grew up with this very exaggerated sense of
things, which I think is probably why there was like, I
need to have big breasts. And then as you and I have both
talked about, like, well, big breasts actually make your upper
body look even more exaggerated versus in proportion.
(18:12):
So I had to start unlearning allthose things that my brain had
soaked up like a sponge about what femininity looked like.
So I think for me, mine might bea more specific lane that not
everybody had. I didn't have female influences
in life. I didn't have did have some of
the other things that influencedmy feminine ideal, but that's
(18:33):
the lane I had. Yeah.
And it's especially if you are someone that in your male mode,
life may be categorized as thin,right, to understand that you
may be seen as thin and it may be easy for you to then move
into the understanding that you're going to be a thin woman.
(18:55):
If you're a thin man, it's just a body you're, you're moving
from male to female. It's really, it's a hard pill to
swallow for some when they realize that just because you're
a fit thin male in translation, when you translate the bus
measurements and you translate the weight and the hip
(19:15):
measurements, especially that bust band, right, it's more
likely going to translate to a plus size category than not
simply because of the musculature of the body.
So places like Torrid, Lane Bryant Ave.
City Chic, those kind of things are going to be able to have the
(19:37):
fabric, the sheer amount of fabric that's going to cover a
broader back, larger muscles. It just is, and as disorienting
as that can be, on a side note, it's very interesting because
the look books are also selling a visual, something visual,
right? So what I do is I snapshot the
(19:59):
pants, the tops and all this. And let's say you have a client
that in their mind they are a thinner body and then they're
locked into that. But the models in the clothes
are more of a curvy plus size body.
Sometimes, not always, because Iget into this in the
consultation where I really break this down and explain why
(20:22):
it is that that just bodies are different and sizing is
different. It can be very disorienting to
kind of see that, but that's notthe woman I see in my head.
Basically the end this idea bad and good and oh great, I'm a fat
woman and locked in on the sizing, which is all very human.
But I need to tell you, I need to tell you all something that
(20:44):
is a well known style secret of mine that I'm going to just I'm
just going to go there. I'm going to say it right now.
And that's basically the idea that often most times the bigger
size in the right cut, the rightcolor, the right shape is going
to make you look thinner than a smaller size that just fits that
(21:07):
you just were able to stuff yourbody in and you really like it.
And I get it, you like tight. I'll find you tight, but I'll
find you fitted. I'm not going to find so tight
that it makes you look actually bigger by default because you're
not finding a piece that is right for you in terms of your
(21:28):
height, weight, muscles. Yeah, that's.
I mean, look what I'm wearing today, Gorge.
Thank you, by the way, I love. I don't know why I haven't worn
this like often, but also I haven't been dressing all that
often. But this is AAV neck with gauzy,
I don't know what. Kind of sleeves.
Your bells, it's kind of bell sleeves.
(21:48):
It's very. Match almost, almost a see
through. Yeah, and it's and it's just a
nice top with my typical pencil skirt.
So it depends on what I love because I do feel I have good
legs. So I'd like to accentuate the
legs and the booty. And but the top is more flowy
and you're right, I get a bettersense of fit than if I was going
(22:12):
for like, oh, I need to, I need con this thing.
And then all the sudden misproportion from a feminine
perspective, because I look likeit at the head of the pin where
the upper body has got all the weight inverted triangles down.
And that's going to more accentuate the mismatch of
geometry than what I'm looking for to be more feminine, right?
(22:33):
Yeah. Everything is great in terms of
the sizing you pick because you've been able to move through
phases of trial and error and style and fashion and really,
you know, understand your body. And that's something that I
encourage everyone to do as theyset out into this exploration of
their feminine style and then finding clothes that look best
(22:55):
on their body. And that's developing an
acceptance and an awareness withhow you actually look and how
what your actual sizing is in a woman's sizing measure it.
You take a tape measure, you measure the bust, you measure
the hips and you measure the smallest part of your waist.
(23:18):
That is the most kind of the three most important, I'd say
measurements other than, you know, you kind of measure your
head. If you tend to have have wigs
that are larger or wigs that aremedium or average, you should
know those measurements. You should know before you
invest and and spend a bunch of money on a wig If you tend to
have an average size head or if you have a larger head.
(23:41):
And if you have a larger head, that's going to mean that, you
know, there's limited amounts oflarge wigs.
But here's the section just for you for large wigs.
So basically you can find these simple measurements on YouTube
and you just yes. I have a question, when you said
the bust or the yes, is that theunder bust?
What's the measurement specifically?
(24:02):
So it's around. So if you think of that, you're
wearing a a bra and these are the titties, the jugs, it's the
band size. The band size, OK, that's why I
wanted it. Yes.
So any other questions? So, yeah, so those three
measurements are really important.
I think that if you're if you'rethinking about getting a jacket,
(24:25):
sure there are other kind of jacket measurement sizes, but
those three measurements will beyour guide.
When you are looking at pants ora skirt, the waist is important,
right. When you're thinking about a
top, the bust is important, but also kind of the waist.
I don't want you to say, OK, this is a shirt.
(24:47):
Julie told me that I just need to measure the bust.
But what happens if you measure the bust but it's too small in
the waist? So once it comes down to the
waist, suddenly you can't breathe and it looks strange.
So make sure that those two measurements are kind of in
alignment. I, the reason why I'm, I'm
spilling all the beans and telling all the secrets is
(25:08):
because I want everyone who is adoll to look their best and to
feel successful. And dressing and style and
dressing for your body is something that most women have
trouble with. Most women, most women are not
wearing the correct, most women are in denial about their tops
(25:31):
or they've discovered that there's no, you know, sometimes
they like things a little bit bigger, sometimes they like some
a little bit tighter. But this is kind of a, when it
comes to feminine dressing, thisis a part of the awareness
piece. And that's why I feel like I am
really successful at what I do is because I, I have that
(25:55):
awareness, I have that understanding.
I know how certain fits are going to fit.
I know about certain fabrics. So there's, there's also that
professional piece that I have that someone that's just going
to take my advice won't really have completely.
So I'm still very much needed, but I want everyone to know the
people that are just willing to guesstimate with their credit
(26:19):
cards and get something that comes and not return it or or
turn it and just feel not safe because either they don't feel
safe going into a store because that's a whole nother episode,
or people just aren't. They're shopping online.
They just are. The awareness is key.
Also understanding, let's say you're very petite in male and
(26:41):
female, you're very petite, right?
Or you're just slender. Or you're human on this planet
that wants to understand online shopping better so that you
don't waste your time, money andenergy.
Know that if something is an Asian size, you are going to
want to go 3 size up from your regular size.
Checking that ego at the door isreally key when it comes to
(27:03):
dressing for success. Also, in terms of Asian size,
it's not even 3 sizes up, it's more like 5 sizes up.
If they're saying it's a size 10, that's not in American size
10, no matter what they tell you, it's like a size 4.
So yeah, if they're saying it's a 10, but it's really a four,
that means an 18 is probably A10, which means that a 22 is
(27:26):
probably. Right, right.
It's calculus. It is and I was always told to
go up 3 sizes larger. I think that when in the writing
it says best size for you based on our calculations or what you
normally get is this size. I think that that's OK verse
(27:49):
something that just says Asian size 1, Asian size 2, Asian size
3. You just really have got to be
careful. You don't have to be an expert.
Let me be your expert for you. You just have to know enough
information to be able to not beclueless.
Basically to put some mindfulness to this, and I
understand that the mindfulness piece, it can take away some of
(28:12):
the pink clouds, some of the fogand some of this, the stuff that
comes with just wanting to pull that trigger, you know, or
seeing something, especially if it's something not age
appropriate, something that's very demure and girly and
sisified and all that. You still should know those
measurements, even if it is thatyoung.
Look, it's, it's really important because you don't want
(28:35):
it to look bad. You want to have confidence, you
know you want to really move through this experience.
Feeling like your best self and acceptance is a key part of the
feminine cross dressing journey.Yeah, I hate accepting it.
I know, I know. I was as you're talking and
you're talking about even if you're dressing younger and I'm
(28:57):
like, I'm always trying to dressyounger.
And I think there may be a misconception in my brain like
what younger actually looks likeand the fact that something that
might not feel younger. Let's say you gave me an outfit
that's I think this is what you should wear it.
I'm like, but it doesn't seem young enough.
I want to be like a club kid. And.
Then you're like, no, do this and I do it.
(29:18):
And the reality is I will feel younger and look better and look
younger, look more appropriate versus that image of my head
that I thought I'm supposed to look like to get the same
feeling out of it. So tackling that, get it out of
your head what you think is trueand find out what is true and
(29:39):
what, like you said, makes all the dowels feel more alive and
their best. That's always going to, I think,
skew young or younger than Matronly.
I think if you do it the right way, you're going to find if
you're achieving what you're hoping to achieve perceptually
from the outside and from your own perspective, looking in the
mirror versus like that one little picture in your head that
(30:03):
is the only look that you want to make happen.
Right. And I think there's a Gray area,
right? And I, I want our listeners to
know that when it comes to the work that I do with individuals
and the acceptance I have for all the many ways that cross
dressing can look in terms of fantasy, in terms of play, in
(30:26):
terms of sensuality, I'm here for all of it.
All of it. However you're interested in
showing up, that's what I'm herefor.
But I'm going to make sure that it fits.
I'm not even talking about dressing for your age because I
know deep down inside, I know that even when it comes to
stepping out, there's a catchingup, right?
You were not given permission orfreedom.
(30:50):
I'm assuming this too Twirl to express to move around in this
world like the 10 year old, 11 year old, 12 year old, 16 year
old, 18 year old and so on. So there is a part of my job and
a part of my role that is here to give you permission to do
that. I am not here to say you are
(31:12):
this age so you need to be in alignment with this.
I really am not. But what I want you to know
today is let's say you want to have the soup super short mini
shorts that may even look a little bit awkward when you're
standing in front of the mirror.To me, who cares?
(31:33):
I want to make sure that if you're going to rock that, that
you are going to rock it so thatyour belly is not carving the
button line and the the beltlinein your stomach and waste.
I want you to feel comfortable. You find your places, you find
your environment where that kindof outfit is uniform or that
(31:55):
kind of outfit is accepted or that kind of outfit is who you
are in your house walking around.
What is the point in dressing like a cheerleader if you're not
able to breathe or you wouldn't even be able to to twirl, never
mind bounce? You know?
I'm here to support the individuals and how to
(32:15):
materialize this fantasy into reality without shame.
You know, I want to give you allpermission to explore all these
different types of aesthetics because in my world, in Kate's
world and the fox and hanger world, it's all accepted.
We just want you to feel comfortable.
(32:35):
Yes, safety, fine, but right nowthe exploration is just between
you, you and your feminine self and what that means in terms of
getting to know your body. It's a lot.
It's scary, but it's kind of like us saying words that are
very therapizing or are saying words that are very like, you
know, deep. And then you got to do the
(32:56):
mindfulness, you got to do the practice.
The truth of the matter is thereare therapists out there that
can do with you. You don't have to do it alone.
So this episode was really important to me because I want
people to remember the basics, that femininity is not about
perfection. It's not.
(33:17):
It's about expression of joy. You know, it's about cultivating
that feeling of youthfulness. And, you know, fashion is really
a tool for empowerment. It's not the rule book, you
know? And it's very rare to find an
adult human that doesn't feel bad about their body or wishes
(33:37):
that there was something they can change about it.
But something that I love about clothes and it in addition to
finding clothes that fit for my body, is finding ways to appear
slender by using cuts and colorsand necklines.
This is all something that if you want to learn more about,
(33:58):
there are teachers everywhere. There are books online, there
are YouTube channels, there's Fox and Hanger.
There's learning from people like Savannah who have done this
for so long and it still continues to do this.
You're the youngest today that you're ever going to be, you
know, I'd be not that you ever were, but it's only, it's only
(34:19):
older from here. And like, yes, there are certain
things that you accept, such as a heel height, right?
Accepting that, then you're heeltime and now you know.
Get closer to the ground. Right.
You're closer to the ground. So yeah, I, I know I've said a
lot, but everything I said, I hope that people can walk away
(34:41):
with a better understanding and and more confidence around this
because there's a lot of shame when it comes to the cross
dressing experience. Your size is just information.
It's just a number, it's a numbers game and it's a balance
game and it's a joyful game. So get out there and go knock em
dead with your titties and your tucks and your wrap dresses and
(35:05):
your all your stuff and I'll be there cheering you on.
Well, absolutely. I will say in my own closing,
you get what I said. Clothing closing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm doing my best, doing my
best. I will say yes, your size is a
numbers game and I think if you treat it as a game, it could be
(35:29):
kind of fun as long as you don'tsee that number.
And that's the end all be all ofall things for everything about
you because you're going to run into disappointment.
But they're self-imposed. Or whether it's different
designers or whether it's your evolution, as you know, from
being a young adult to a maybe an older adult like me, who
(35:50):
according to Julie, I'm one day closer to the grave every day I
live. And I have had to work very hard
to undo my perception of what femininity looks like based on
what my quote UN quote ideals were.
Secondly, really understand thiscalculus game that is female
(36:14):
fashion for sizing, for measuring A, measuring the
shoulders, measuring the length from your neck to your groin,
measuring arm length, measuring the bus versus the under bus
versus the waist versus the hipsversus all the things.
It's great to know those things because I think as we're getting
more and more evolved in buying,especially online, that some
(36:39):
makers are using more and more and more of the whole body
measurement experience to offer you what the quote UN quote size
should be for the thing you wantto buy.
Like I said, I bought my bell outfit today for Halloween and I
went with a 3X and I looked at the chart and I'm like, I don't
(37:01):
know. I could do a 2X because 2X sets
is going to be what it should be, but yet I'm not confident it
will be even if it says true to size.
So let me stop like you said, let me stop trying to squeeze
myself into something because the 2X will make me feel better
about myself than a 3X if that just be like it's just a size.
(37:24):
It doesn't matter what the size is, as long as you it fits you
well and it makes you comfortable and it makes you
feel lovely in your femininity. And like you said earlier, and
not feel like a sausage stuffed into a dress where you have to
have two other people zip it up for you just just to get it
(37:44):
closed and still not be able to breathe.
That's not going to make you happy at all.
Not at all. And I think that there's,
there's some point that I want to make when you're, you're
taking these basic measurements for yourself.
And this is something that kind of Kate reminds me of all the
time as we're doing the sizing checking for the different
items. Let's say you're a 34 waste, OK,
(38:05):
And you find a product that has a range, you know, 31 through 30
before waste. That is something that is a red
flag because often, you know, inthe beginning of Fox and hanger,
I'd be like, sweet, it fits include that.
But then I realized, and Kate has taught me that if something
just comes to the size that you are, there's no room for, let's
(38:29):
say, if it's going to shrink, let's say on a day that you
drink too much water, not enoughwater, eat, gain weight through
stress, whatever it is, it's notgoing to give you that allowance
to move past that. It's going to be so tight.
It's going to fit, but it's not going to be what we're talking
about in terms of true that you want it to be forgiving.
(38:50):
I think that's something that another part of your ego may be
like, oh, but it's 34. Even if let's say it's in the
large category goes up to a 34 and you're like sweet.
Oh, Phew. I was scared about going into
the extra large category, but then the extra large category,
maybe a 34 or 35 through 36 thatwill work or 38 that will work
(39:11):
way better. Trust me, because fabric shrink.
Like I said, there's no true sizes.
So just let your ego down just for a little bit and let the
idea that I want to look my bestin my clothes be your guide.
And Savannah, I think that that's, you know, the perfect
example with the bell dress is just allowing yourself
(39:32):
permission to just be like, OK, you know what?
I'm not sure if this smaller size is going to fit.
I'd love to. The ego says go for it, but the
realist says, you know, I'm justgoing to go for that bigger
size. So that was that was really
smart. So I want people to know that
once they see that number, you know, size measurement, know
that you want to give yourself an inch or an inch and a half to
(39:55):
a permission to just have it be a little bit bigger than that.
That makes sense. Absolutely agree, and don't even
forget that some of us like me wear some layers underneath for
compression and while we think it's compressing, it's also
adding circumference to the bodyas well because of just a
thickness of the material. So what we call them?
(40:17):
And. Hip padding, all the things that
you think are like, well, this is going to make me slimmer.
Yeah, maybe it'll tighten you uplike around the belly, but it's
still adding probably an inch ofmaterial in addition to your
normal size. Especially with padding.
Yeah, I think the idea behind shapewear is to smooth, to
(40:37):
smooth, smooth out areas, right?So, so it may, it may slenderize
a shape, so it may lessen inchesof, let's say, bulge from the
stomach area, may flatten that out.
But also you still have the muscles, you still have the
frame, you know, you still have padding, which is another thing
(40:58):
to consider when you're measuring your hips.
So if you are always wearing, you know, pit pads with your
body con dresses or warm fittingitems, even jeans, you want to
consider that when you're measuring your body.
That is very important. You want to consider that added
measurement when you're measuring yourself.
(41:19):
Put on the shapewear with the padding, measure it that way.
If that's something you always wear with your clothes, that's
absolutely something that's a part of your, that's a part of
your body as a gains to the physical person that's stepping
into the clothes. Yeah, the presentation at the
end of the day. And the additives add weight and
curvature, so that's going to affect your sizing as well.
(41:42):
Anyways, thank you so much for, you know, listening.
Thank you, Savannah, for welcoming another stylized
topic. This work that I do, I am
extremely passionate about it. I hope our listeners can take
away something, it's not everything, one thing that's
going to really make them feel better in this cross dressing
(42:06):
experience. And we did our job, didn't we?
I would say so. And thank you for letting me, I
don't know, just, you know, let you carry me along on your
coattails and give me all the wisdoms.
Ah. Chitty Bump, Honk boop, boop,
boop. All right, please tune in every
Wednesday for a new episode. I hope everyone has a wonderful
(42:28):
rest of their week, a peaceful, a kind rest of your week.
And I love you very much, Savannah, and I appreciate you
so much. I appreciate you.
I love you. I love you.
Hugs, hugs. I love you.
Let's join a band. OK, so you know, I'm just saying
next, next time we have our nextepisode, I will be fully.
(42:51):
I may have my clown nose. I will be fully clowning around.
So maybe you get maybe I'll haveone of those, you know, Hong
Kong. Maybe it would just my
clowniness will ooze into the episode.
That's. True.
And I might just have to yes, Andrew, the entire time.
I might just have to throw a rubber chicken on your face.
(43:11):
OK, bye for now. Until next time, you can find me
on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing
and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
(43:33):
and Facebook at Fox and Hangar or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhangar.com.
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
(43:53):
Yes, nailed it.
You're listening to the Fox and the Phoenix podcast
Understanding the Feminine CrossDressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
(00:28):
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hey, Savannah. Hey Julie, how are you doing
today? Well, the day start off a little
bit strange because I want to bejust like you twin in with the
(00:50):
Starbucks. So I drove over.
I was almost going to text you prior and be like, Hey, could I
get a picture of you with your Starbucks that I was going to
get Starbucks that I could do a little social media cutie
moment. OK with us both like hey about
for court but had to make a stop.
I go there and it's closed. Not only is the drive through
(01:10):
closed but I looked as I was passing and the whole building
has like their chairs up. Is this the end of days?
Did the Rapture really happen? Like it?
Well, I felt like it did. I mean, the fact that, you know,
the rapture, quote, UN quote, happened during the Jewish New
Year and there wasn't many people on the road around
Starbucks on Tuesday, I really felt like I got left behind.
I also faced that two weeks ago because there was apparently a a
(01:34):
burst pipe, a water pipe, and myStarbucks by the house was also
closed a couple weeks ago so I had to go find a alternate
place. What did you do for your
alternate solution for your caffeination?
Well, I thank you for asking because normally I'd just go
home and be like, well that sucked.
But I just had this idea to go get the limp Dick version and
you heard me right, a limp Dick.And that was go to the gas
(01:56):
station and get one of these Frappuccine in the bottom.
OK, so it is a it is a StarbucksFrappuccino and yeah.
And I'm not really like I need coffee to have the face that you
see before you like I do have a friend 1 specifically in mind
that like if they don't get their coffee, then you know,
(02:17):
whatever. But for me, I really felt like I
could use some coffee, I can usesome fuel.
But what happens? No, not what I wanted, but I got
the D list version anyways, and I live to tell the tale.
But I also wanted to tell you one more thing before I ask you
how you're doing. Guess what I'm doing this week?
Going to a Liz Fair concert. All right, I literally knew
(02:41):
you'd come up with something when I said that, but it was
basically an opening for me to say I'm starting clown college.
I mean, you're seriously the real for reals clown college.
So I call it clown college, and I'll tell you why in a moment,
but I signed up for a Clowning around acting class at the
Berkeley Repertory Theatre. I did, and I did it on the day
(03:04):
of me launching Ginger's Closet.And my thought at the moment
around all this work and all this hype and launching this
thing is that I need to come up with something that was just for
me to do. Acting has always been in my
repertoire. And clown college specifically,
I call it that because when I was growing up summering at Cape
(03:25):
Cod, my father and I, from the time I was little till maybe
literally college age, would drive to the dump and drop our
stuff at the dump. And then as we're leaving the
dump, they had this giant white tent that was on the property
and it said clown university on it as we drive by.
And my father would say the samesomething he'd always say.
(03:49):
He'd look at me with a smile andthis like twinkle in his eye.
And he'd be like clown college. Jews don't go to clown college.
And then he, he thought it was so hysterical.
And then he'd like drive on by. Well, because of that memory, I
have since gone on Etsy and got like a clown university T-shirt.
And now his dad is going to clown college.
(04:11):
Well, I couple weeks. OK, I'm so excited.
You don't seem as excited as I am, but whatevs, I may get a
clown. No, first of all, don't.
Make any assumptions because I was going to say let me know
when graduation day is. I think you're saying you said
two weeks. I'm like, well, that's not even
enough time to to buy you an appropriate like, you know,
(04:31):
Hawker or anything. A little horn.
A little horn, yeah. Look, my teddy is Hong Kong.
I'm so excited. Do you love it?
You're going to know a clown, a Jewish clown, and I've always
been a clown, Scott says. Why clown college?
Why are you becoming a clown? I said, honey, I've always been
a clown. Which actually seems more.
Like Lucille Ball? It tracks.
(04:54):
It tracks. And actually, I was going to
say, man, if you really want to graduate clown college and then
maybe you start going to Growlings and start doing some
stage improv and be insanity. I mean, not for nothing, but I
wasn't an improv troupe when Renmi was very little.
It was very sexist and I didn't understand.
Like I couldn't do political humor.
(05:16):
I just, no, it wasn't for me. But basically, you know it.
She loves it. I'm becoming a cloud of living
my dreams. I need to be playful.
Shoot. Anyways, how are you?
Definitely not living my dreams to that scale, that's for sure.
I'm barely able to get through, you know, my my work while I was
go to university diversity. Yeah, everything's good.
(05:38):
Had a little, as I was telling you off air had a little bit of
a set back with my editing process for my books.
But I am pivoting and shifting gears and making things happen.
Shout out to my girl squad. A lot of them are traveling this
week. Obviously, by the time they get
this and they hear this, they'llbe safely back home.
(05:59):
Godspeed to them. And I finally, and again, this
will be obviously after the fact, but I finally pulled the
trigger on our theme costume forthe office this year.
Me, Emily and Mandy, we decided early in the year what theme I
was going to be by finally pulled the trigger on the
outfit. I'm going to be Belle for Beauty
(06:21):
and the Beast. Oh.
My God it. Was going to be a Cinderella or
that, but I felt like I was moreof a Belle.
Thank you. And Emily is going to be Snow
White, and she already showed meher costume with the hair and
Mandy's kind of costume. She's going to make some changes
and she's going to be a Rapunzel.
Wait from Tangled? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I I mean, it's pretty sad. Whenever I think of Disney
(06:43):
princesses, I always think of the villains.
Like the narcissistic mother from Tangled.
Mother knows best, mother knows best.
Listen to your mother. It's like Oh my God, triggers
but amazing. And Ursula.
But Speaking of Belle, I love Belle because she reads books
(07:03):
and she's not like the other girls.
That's right, That's right. She does read the books and I
write the books that make the whole world sing and it's all
appropriate. And the only thing I'm worried
about, only thing I'm worried about is the same thing we're
about every year is the fit of the dress when it comes in from
Amazon. Instead of going, I'm going to
(07:23):
get a 1X. I went with unfortunately a 3X
to start off with because sometimes they're stretched,
sometimes there's not stretched,sometimes it's crux shooting.
You got to return a bunch of things like I did last year.
We had our Powerpuff Girls. So yeah, starting large and in
charge and we will see. It's supposed to come in on
October 3rd. So I'm excited to see it and put
(07:45):
it on and be the bell quote UN quote of the ball.
First of all, speak in ball. Shout out to the Rivers City
gems who just had their sparkle ball last night.
That's all I have to say. Second of all, thank you so much
for bringing this up because yougave me a perfect alley oop to
(08:06):
our topic today. Which is what?
Today we are going to unpack anddevelop an understanding for the
idea of processing individuals being in semi denial when it
comes to sizing for their feminine body.
So OK. Do you know what?
(08:26):
That means. Oh oh, I know what it means,
I've been there many old times. So I'll be very curious how this
is going to turn out for sure. Yeah, and how I came up with
this topic idea. First of all, there was such an
outpour from the accessories episodes that we did that I
realized that I have, you know, stylistic things to offer as
(08:47):
well in terms of understandings.So that's where this came from,
as well as the idea that I was sitting with the style
questionnaire that came in and like dozens of them.
The sizing that they said they were in dresses and skirts and
even in tops was way different than the sizing the actually
(09:09):
were when you broke it down in terms of numbers and
measurements. So it allowed me to think a
little bit deeper rather than just kind of the number of it
all, because as we know, there'sno real true size.
It can vary. You really do have to try things
on. But the idea our ego would like
(09:29):
to aim for that smaller size because it boosts the ego.
It makes us feel like we are part of the cool Girls Club.
It makes us feel like the cool girls.
They're thin and they're taut and they're tight and you know,
I like my dresses to fit a little bit tight.
So the facts tight and the fact that I can actually zipper it
(09:50):
up, I can't breathe, might have cracked a rib, but I can
actually zipper it up is part ofthis experience.
They may not be comfortable, it may not be in their size.
They may be putting something ontheir body that is 3 sizes too
small. But because they can zipper it
up, not comfortably, but it zips, that sends a message to
(10:11):
the brain that says it fits. This is my size.
So before I say more and unpack all of my knowledge when it
comes to this, please Savannah, I would love to hear about some
of your experiences as it relates to this topic.
Well I'm going to say a couple things.
The first being 3432 men don't have these.
(10:33):
Problem was like if I need to know what my pair of jeans is, I
just go to the inseam and the waist size and I'm ready.
I don't understand why women's clothing is a freaking free for
all where a size 12 in one makeror designer is an 18 and
somebody else. God knows we've all done the
Amazon purchasing where we know we came from China, but it says
(10:57):
a 14 but it feels like it's AUS size 4.
And we're like, why can't I get my one leg into this dress?
So I totally get the absurdity of what women have to go through
when it comes to the size, the right size, the fact that that
size is not universal. The fact that if you go to some
(11:17):
place like Torrid, it starts at 0 and 00 and the size is its own
creation. And I understand why.
Like you said, psychological look what size I am feel to make
you feel good about it. But the factors of no universal
causality to how women's fashionis is for I guess for men who
grew up with like I know what this is and it is the same all
(11:37):
over. Yeah, I I don't get it.
I know it's a struggle. I've had the struggle.
God knows as as I've gained weight over the last few years,
I keep saying I'm a 10/12 and then every time I turn around
that 1012 is now a 14/16/18. It really may not be a true
eighteen from what I remember 18to be, but because everything is
so sliding a scale and you neverget to target unless you, like
(12:00):
you said earlier, you have to try everything on otherwise
you'll never know. I mean, when you were here and
we went to Ross Dress for Less, you, me and Judy, all the
sciences were a complete nightmare of what fate, what
didn't fit, what worked, what didn't work.
So yeah, it's super, super important to not just know where
you are, but know all the fallacies surrounding it.
(12:21):
Right. And just a couple things.
Most people shop online. They just do.
They really do. And so rather than having this
pink cloud, I'm just going to guess and then I'm going to get
it and I'm not going to return it because I'm so shameful and
this vicious cycle. You need to be honest with
yourself when it comes to your own personal measurements.
(12:45):
A big part of my work is really helping people with their
measurements and what they're sizing.
But this is something that people can absolutely do at
home. But before I get into kind of
the brass tacks of the differentmeasurements, I want to mention
that I totally understand and validate how something like this
could happen. The desire to see oneself in a
(13:05):
certain feminine ideal that feels very on point with the
female experience. You know, the influence of
marketing and beauty and those beauty standards.
I totally understand. I mean we, you and I, whether
whether or not we were born withthe same biology or not, you and
I are still attracted and deeplyinfluenced by femininity.
(13:28):
I mean, I think about me being influenced in this way as I was
younger, but especially kind of a later in life cross dressing
individual is really an increasein size could feel deeply as
they're fat or they're not sexy or in their mind.
There's this very clear disassociation between the woman
(13:49):
and this is huge, everyone huge between the fantasy woman that
they see themselves to be and who they actually are.
And I'm not talking about the fantasy you have when you look
at some woman and you're just like, I want to know what it's
like to be her. I'm actually talking about this
and you probably know the term right off the top of your head.
(14:09):
And if you don't, you're at least familiar with it.
And that's this kind of dysphoria.
I don't know what the word is for it, where you have this
sense that you are actually making this up.
A lesbian woman with breasts, even though that is not the case
in actuality. In actuality, you may be
quadruple the size, you may be alarger framed individual.
(14:32):
You may be a heavyset individual, but in the marrow of
your being there is a very inherent truth and I don't know
if it's a past life connection. Again, Savannah, you would know
a lot more about this than I would.
I have experienced this with several clients where they
actually have this belief systemthat they are this person.
And so when it comes to that belief system and me as a image
(14:56):
consultant architect for the feminine, if you will, when it
comes to me manifesting and creating a visual that's in
alignment with this person, it can be very, I can, it could be
very hard for the cross dressingindividual because it's not in
alignment with the body that they feel and they want to
reflect this image, but it's notwho they are in the flesh.
(15:19):
Absolutely. It has been a lifelong issue of
mine. You know, when you're young, you
know, you kind of embody the clothes and you do the best you
can. I was athletic enough to not
really see it as a problem. I didn't have an obesity issue
where everything I would try on might look terrible and in the
image of my head would never reflect that.
(15:40):
So I was lucky enough growing upto be somewhat more thin and
athletic that it did really deter me.
When I got to the 90s and started doing the clubs, I was
at 1012. Going back to what I said
earlier, I was at 10:12 and I was able to feel really sexy in
the club club dresses that was able to do and the people around
(16:01):
me were very supportive of that.And as I've gone, and as I've
gone further down the road and closer to my age and metabolism
changes and body changes, all those types of things have
negatively impacted me about one, what I remember my size to
be. And fighting that battle like,
(16:24):
well, I should just go on a dietso I can get back there.
I need to get back there. I need to be where I was more
comfortable with how I looked. And fighting that against the
realization of, yeah, you're in your 50s now and metabolism is
not the same. Yes, you should make some
dietary changes. Maybe you can walk more.
Is that going to magically narrow my shoulders?
Is that going to magically get rid of my my little bit of a
(16:45):
belly? What do you want to do about it
or not do about it? So that's the the physicality of
it all. Absolutely.
In terms of the mentality of it all.
I never came at it with a specific feminine ideology.
But yet I had so many influencesgrowing up.
Lindy Anderson. Lynda Carter, Adrian Barbeau,
(17:08):
Farrah Fawcett, 70s and 80s vibeto it with also a sprinkling of
syndicated television of June Cleavers, Morticia Adams,
entertainment figures or characters that also influenced
my style or the look I was goingfor.
And as I matured and as I got into my late teens and 20's, the
(17:30):
Seventies, 80s, early 90s were very big, especially for comics
that every woman was so legally drawn, a huge breast, big hips,
big thighs. It was all very exaggerated.
And then finally, you know, as we hit the 2000, even those
writers and drawers of comics started to be a little more
(17:51):
realistic in the portrayal of women.
So I kind of grew up with this very exaggerated sense of
things, which I think is probably why there was like, I
need to have big breasts. And then as you and I have both
talked about, like, well, big breasts actually make your upper
body look even more exaggerated versus in proportion.
(18:12):
So I had to start unlearning allthose things that my brain had
soaked up like a sponge about what femininity looked like.
So I think for me, mine might bea more specific lane that not
everybody had. I didn't have female influences
in life. I didn't have did have some of
the other things that influencedmy feminine ideal, but that's
(18:33):
the lane I had. Yeah.
And it's especially if you are someone that in your male mode,
life may be categorized as thin,right, to understand that you
may be seen as thin and it may be easy for you to then move
into the understanding that you're going to be a thin woman.
(18:55):
If you're a thin man, it's just a body you're, you're moving
from male to female. It's really, it's a hard pill to
swallow for some when they realize that just because you're
a fit thin male in translation, when you translate the bus
measurements and you translate the weight and the hip
(19:15):
measurements, especially that bust band, right, it's more
likely going to translate to a plus size category than not
simply because of the musculature of the body.
So places like Torrid, Lane Bryant Ave.
City Chic, those kind of things are going to be able to have the
(19:37):
fabric, the sheer amount of fabric that's going to cover a
broader back, larger muscles. It just is, and as disorienting
as that can be, on a side note, it's very interesting because
the look books are also selling a visual, something visual,
right? So what I do is I snapshot the
(19:59):
pants, the tops and all this. And let's say you have a client
that in their mind they are a thinner body and then they're
locked into that. But the models in the clothes
are more of a curvy plus size body.
Sometimes, not always, because Iget into this in the
consultation where I really break this down and explain why
(20:22):
it is that that just bodies are different and sizing is
different. It can be very disorienting to
kind of see that, but that's notthe woman I see in my head.
Basically the end this idea bad and good and oh great, I'm a fat
woman and locked in on the sizing, which is all very human.
But I need to tell you, I need to tell you all something that
(20:44):
is a well known style secret of mine that I'm going to just I'm
just going to go there. I'm going to say it right now.
And that's basically the idea that often most times the bigger
size in the right cut, the rightcolor, the right shape is going
to make you look thinner than a smaller size that just fits that
(21:07):
you just were able to stuff yourbody in and you really like it.
And I get it, you like tight. I'll find you tight, but I'll
find you fitted. I'm not going to find so tight
that it makes you look actually bigger by default because you're
not finding a piece that is right for you in terms of your
(21:28):
height, weight, muscles. Yeah, that's.
I mean, look what I'm wearing today, Gorge.
Thank you, by the way, I love. I don't know why I haven't worn
this like often, but also I haven't been dressing all that
often. But this is AAV neck with gauzy,
I don't know what. Kind of sleeves.
Your bells, it's kind of bell sleeves.
(21:48):
It's very. Match almost, almost a see
through. Yeah, and it's and it's just a
nice top with my typical pencil skirt.
So it depends on what I love because I do feel I have good
legs. So I'd like to accentuate the
legs and the booty. And but the top is more flowy
and you're right, I get a bettersense of fit than if I was going
(22:12):
for like, oh, I need to, I need con this thing.
And then all the sudden misproportion from a feminine
perspective, because I look likeit at the head of the pin where
the upper body has got all the weight inverted triangles down.
And that's going to more accentuate the mismatch of
geometry than what I'm looking for to be more feminine, right?
(22:33):
Yeah. Everything is great in terms of
the sizing you pick because you've been able to move through
phases of trial and error and style and fashion and really,
you know, understand your body. And that's something that I
encourage everyone to do as theyset out into this exploration of
their feminine style and then finding clothes that look best
(22:55):
on their body. And that's developing an
acceptance and an awareness withhow you actually look and how
what your actual sizing is in a woman's sizing measure it.
You take a tape measure, you measure the bust, you measure
the hips and you measure the smallest part of your waist.
(23:18):
That is the most kind of the three most important, I'd say
measurements other than, you know, you kind of measure your
head. If you tend to have have wigs
that are larger or wigs that aremedium or average, you should
know those measurements. You should know before you
invest and and spend a bunch of money on a wig If you tend to
have an average size head or if you have a larger head.
(23:41):
And if you have a larger head, that's going to mean that, you
know, there's limited amounts oflarge wigs.
But here's the section just for you for large wigs.
So basically you can find these simple measurements on YouTube
and you just yes. I have a question, when you said
the bust or the yes, is that theunder bust?
What's the measurement specifically?
(24:02):
So it's around. So if you think of that, you're
wearing a a bra and these are the titties, the jugs, it's the
band size. The band size, OK, that's why I
wanted it. Yes.
So any other questions? So, yeah, so those three
measurements are really important.
I think that if you're if you'rethinking about getting a jacket,
(24:25):
sure there are other kind of jacket measurement sizes, but
those three measurements will beyour guide.
When you are looking at pants ora skirt, the waist is important,
right. When you're thinking about a
top, the bust is important, but also kind of the waist.
I don't want you to say, OK, this is a shirt.
(24:47):
Julie told me that I just need to measure the bust.
But what happens if you measure the bust but it's too small in
the waist? So once it comes down to the
waist, suddenly you can't breathe and it looks strange.
So make sure that those two measurements are kind of in
alignment. I, the reason why I'm, I'm
spilling all the beans and telling all the secrets is
(25:08):
because I want everyone who is adoll to look their best and to
feel successful. And dressing and style and
dressing for your body is something that most women have
trouble with. Most women, most women are not
wearing the correct, most women are in denial about their tops
(25:31):
or they've discovered that there's no, you know, sometimes
they like things a little bit bigger, sometimes they like some
a little bit tighter. But this is kind of a, when it
comes to feminine dressing, thisis a part of the awareness
piece. And that's why I feel like I am
really successful at what I do is because I, I have that
(25:55):
awareness, I have that understanding.
I know how certain fits are going to fit.
I know about certain fabrics. So there's, there's also that
professional piece that I have that someone that's just going
to take my advice won't really have completely.
So I'm still very much needed, but I want everyone to know the
people that are just willing to guesstimate with their credit
(26:19):
cards and get something that comes and not return it or or
turn it and just feel not safe because either they don't feel
safe going into a store because that's a whole nother episode,
or people just aren't. They're shopping online.
They just are. The awareness is key.
Also understanding, let's say you're very petite in male and
(26:41):
female, you're very petite, right?
Or you're just slender. Or you're human on this planet
that wants to understand online shopping better so that you
don't waste your time, money andenergy.
Know that if something is an Asian size, you are going to
want to go 3 size up from your regular size.
Checking that ego at the door isreally key when it comes to
(27:03):
dressing for success. Also, in terms of Asian size,
it's not even 3 sizes up, it's more like 5 sizes up.
If they're saying it's a size 10, that's not in American size
10, no matter what they tell you, it's like a size 4.
So yeah, if they're saying it's a 10, but it's really a four,
that means an 18 is probably A10, which means that a 22 is
(27:26):
probably. Right, right.
It's calculus. It is and I was always told to
go up 3 sizes larger. I think that when in the writing
it says best size for you based on our calculations or what you
normally get is this size. I think that that's OK verse
(27:49):
something that just says Asian size 1, Asian size 2, Asian size
3. You just really have got to be
careful. You don't have to be an expert.
Let me be your expert for you. You just have to know enough
information to be able to not beclueless.
Basically to put some mindfulness to this, and I
understand that the mindfulness piece, it can take away some of
(28:12):
the pink clouds, some of the fogand some of this, the stuff that
comes with just wanting to pull that trigger, you know, or
seeing something, especially if it's something not age
appropriate, something that's very demure and girly and
sisified and all that. You still should know those
measurements, even if it is thatyoung.
Look, it's, it's really important because you don't want
(28:35):
it to look bad. You want to have confidence, you
know you want to really move through this experience.
Feeling like your best self and acceptance is a key part of the
feminine cross dressing journey.Yeah, I hate accepting it.
I know, I know. I was as you're talking and
you're talking about even if you're dressing younger and I'm
(28:57):
like, I'm always trying to dressyounger.
And I think there may be a misconception in my brain like
what younger actually looks likeand the fact that something that
might not feel younger. Let's say you gave me an outfit
that's I think this is what you should wear it.
I'm like, but it doesn't seem young enough.
I want to be like a club kid. And.
Then you're like, no, do this and I do it.
(29:18):
And the reality is I will feel younger and look better and look
younger, look more appropriate versus that image of my head
that I thought I'm supposed to look like to get the same
feeling out of it. So tackling that, get it out of
your head what you think is trueand find out what is true and
(29:39):
what, like you said, makes all the dowels feel more alive and
their best. That's always going to, I think,
skew young or younger than Matronly.
I think if you do it the right way, you're going to find if
you're achieving what you're hoping to achieve perceptually
from the outside and from your own perspective, looking in the
mirror versus like that one little picture in your head that
(30:03):
is the only look that you want to make happen.
Right. And I think there's a Gray area,
right? And I, I want our listeners to
know that when it comes to the work that I do with individuals
and the acceptance I have for all the many ways that cross
dressing can look in terms of fantasy, in terms of play, in
(30:26):
terms of sensuality, I'm here for all of it.
All of it. However you're interested in
showing up, that's what I'm herefor.
But I'm going to make sure that it fits.
I'm not even talking about dressing for your age because I
know deep down inside, I know that even when it comes to
stepping out, there's a catchingup, right?
You were not given permission orfreedom.
(30:50):
I'm assuming this too Twirl to express to move around in this
world like the 10 year old, 11 year old, 12 year old, 16 year
old, 18 year old and so on. So there is a part of my job and
a part of my role that is here to give you permission to do
that. I am not here to say you are
(31:12):
this age so you need to be in alignment with this.
I really am not. But what I want you to know
today is let's say you want to have the soup super short mini
shorts that may even look a little bit awkward when you're
standing in front of the mirror.To me, who cares?
(31:33):
I want to make sure that if you're going to rock that, that
you are going to rock it so thatyour belly is not carving the
button line and the the beltlinein your stomach and waste.
I want you to feel comfortable. You find your places, you find
your environment where that kindof outfit is uniform or that
(31:55):
kind of outfit is accepted or that kind of outfit is who you
are in your house walking around.
What is the point in dressing like a cheerleader if you're not
able to breathe or you wouldn't even be able to to twirl, never
mind bounce? You know?
I'm here to support the individuals and how to
(32:15):
materialize this fantasy into reality without shame.
You know, I want to give you allpermission to explore all these
different types of aesthetics because in my world, in Kate's
world and the fox and hanger world, it's all accepted.
We just want you to feel comfortable.
(32:35):
Yes, safety, fine, but right nowthe exploration is just between
you, you and your feminine self and what that means in terms of
getting to know your body. It's a lot.
It's scary, but it's kind of like us saying words that are
very therapizing or are saying words that are very like, you
know, deep. And then you got to do the
(32:56):
mindfulness, you got to do the practice.
The truth of the matter is thereare therapists out there that
can do with you. You don't have to do it alone.
So this episode was really important to me because I want
people to remember the basics, that femininity is not about
perfection. It's not.
(33:17):
It's about expression of joy. You know, it's about cultivating
that feeling of youthfulness. And, you know, fashion is really
a tool for empowerment. It's not the rule book, you
know? And it's very rare to find an
adult human that doesn't feel bad about their body or wishes
(33:37):
that there was something they can change about it.
But something that I love about clothes and it in addition to
finding clothes that fit for my body, is finding ways to appear
slender by using cuts and colorsand necklines.
This is all something that if you want to learn more about,
(33:58):
there are teachers everywhere. There are books online, there
are YouTube channels, there's Fox and Hanger.
There's learning from people like Savannah who have done this
for so long and it still continues to do this.
You're the youngest today that you're ever going to be, you
know, I'd be not that you ever were, but it's only, it's only
(34:19):
older from here. And like, yes, there are certain
things that you accept, such as a heel height, right?
Accepting that, then you're heeltime and now you know.
Get closer to the ground. Right.
You're closer to the ground. So yeah, I, I know I've said a
lot, but everything I said, I hope that people can walk away
(34:41):
with a better understanding and and more confidence around this
because there's a lot of shame when it comes to the cross
dressing experience. Your size is just information.
It's just a number, it's a numbers game and it's a balance
game and it's a joyful game. So get out there and go knock em
dead with your titties and your tucks and your wrap dresses and
(35:05):
your all your stuff and I'll be there cheering you on.
Well, absolutely. I will say in my own closing,
you get what I said. Clothing closing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm doing my best, doing my
best. I will say yes, your size is a
numbers game and I think if you treat it as a game, it could be
(35:29):
kind of fun as long as you don'tsee that number.
And that's the end all be all ofall things for everything about
you because you're going to run into disappointment.
But they're self-imposed. Or whether it's different
designers or whether it's your evolution, as you know, from
being a young adult to a maybe an older adult like me, who
(35:50):
according to Julie, I'm one day closer to the grave every day I
live. And I have had to work very hard
to undo my perception of what femininity looks like based on
what my quote UN quote ideals were.
Secondly, really understand thiscalculus game that is female
(36:14):
fashion for sizing, for measuring A, measuring the
shoulders, measuring the length from your neck to your groin,
measuring arm length, measuring the bus versus the under bus
versus the waist versus the hipsversus all the things.
It's great to know those things because I think as we're getting
more and more evolved in buying,especially online, that some
(36:39):
makers are using more and more and more of the whole body
measurement experience to offer you what the quote UN quote size
should be for the thing you wantto buy.
Like I said, I bought my bell outfit today for Halloween and I
went with a 3X and I looked at the chart and I'm like, I don't
(37:01):
know. I could do a 2X because 2X sets
is going to be what it should be, but yet I'm not confident it
will be even if it says true to size.
So let me stop like you said, let me stop trying to squeeze
myself into something because the 2X will make me feel better
about myself than a 3X if that just be like it's just a size.
(37:24):
It doesn't matter what the size is, as long as you it fits you
well and it makes you comfortable and it makes you
feel lovely in your femininity. And like you said earlier, and
not feel like a sausage stuffed into a dress where you have to
have two other people zip it up for you just just to get it
(37:44):
closed and still not be able to breathe.
That's not going to make you happy at all.
Not at all. And I think that there's,
there's some point that I want to make when you're, you're
taking these basic measurements for yourself.
And this is something that kind of Kate reminds me of all the
time as we're doing the sizing checking for the different
items. Let's say you're a 34 waste, OK,
(38:05):
And you find a product that has a range, you know, 31 through 30
before waste. That is something that is a red
flag because often, you know, inthe beginning of Fox and hanger,
I'd be like, sweet, it fits include that.
But then I realized, and Kate has taught me that if something
just comes to the size that you are, there's no room for, let's
(38:29):
say, if it's going to shrink, let's say on a day that you
drink too much water, not enoughwater, eat, gain weight through
stress, whatever it is, it's notgoing to give you that allowance
to move past that. It's going to be so tight.
It's going to fit, but it's not going to be what we're talking
about in terms of true that you want it to be forgiving.
(38:50):
I think that's something that another part of your ego may be
like, oh, but it's 34. Even if let's say it's in the
large category goes up to a 34 and you're like sweet.
Oh, Phew. I was scared about going into
the extra large category, but then the extra large category,
maybe a 34 or 35 through 36 thatwill work or 38 that will work
(39:11):
way better. Trust me, because fabric shrink.
Like I said, there's no true sizes.
So just let your ego down just for a little bit and let the
idea that I want to look my bestin my clothes be your guide.
And Savannah, I think that that's, you know, the perfect
example with the bell dress is just allowing yourself
(39:32):
permission to just be like, OK, you know what?
I'm not sure if this smaller size is going to fit.
I'd love to. The ego says go for it, but the
realist says, you know, I'm justgoing to go for that bigger
size. So that was that was really
smart. So I want people to know that
once they see that number, you know, size measurement, know
that you want to give yourself an inch or an inch and a half to
(39:55):
a permission to just have it be a little bit bigger than that.
That makes sense. Absolutely agree, and don't even
forget that some of us like me wear some layers underneath for
compression and while we think it's compressing, it's also
adding circumference to the bodyas well because of just a
thickness of the material. So what we call them?
(40:17):
And. Hip padding, all the things that
you think are like, well, this is going to make me slimmer.
Yeah, maybe it'll tighten you uplike around the belly, but it's
still adding probably an inch ofmaterial in addition to your
normal size. Especially with padding.
Yeah, I think the idea behind shapewear is to smooth, to
(40:37):
smooth, smooth out areas, right?So, so it may, it may slenderize
a shape, so it may lessen inchesof, let's say, bulge from the
stomach area, may flatten that out.
But also you still have the muscles, you still have the
frame, you know, you still have padding, which is another thing
(40:58):
to consider when you're measuring your hips.
So if you are always wearing, you know, pit pads with your
body con dresses or warm fittingitems, even jeans, you want to
consider that when you're measuring your body.
That is very important. You want to consider that added
measurement when you're measuring yourself.
(41:19):
Put on the shapewear with the padding, measure it that way.
If that's something you always wear with your clothes, that's
absolutely something that's a part of your, that's a part of
your body as a gains to the physical person that's stepping
into the clothes. Yeah, the presentation at the
end of the day. And the additives add weight and
curvature, so that's going to affect your sizing as well.
(41:42):
Anyways, thank you so much for, you know, listening.
Thank you, Savannah, for welcoming another stylized
topic. This work that I do, I am
extremely passionate about it. I hope our listeners can take
away something, it's not everything, one thing that's
going to really make them feel better in this cross dressing
(42:06):
experience. And we did our job, didn't we?
I would say so. And thank you for letting me, I
don't know, just, you know, let you carry me along on your
coattails and give me all the wisdoms.
Ah. Chitty Bump, Honk boop, boop,
boop. All right, please tune in every
Wednesday for a new episode. I hope everyone has a wonderful
(42:28):
rest of their week, a peaceful, a kind rest of your week.
And I love you very much, Savannah, and I appreciate you
so much. I appreciate you.
I love you. I love you.
Hugs, hugs. I love you.
Let's join a band. OK, so you know, I'm just saying
next, next time we have our nextepisode, I will be fully.
(42:51):
I may have my clown nose. I will be fully clowning around.
So maybe you get maybe I'll haveone of those, you know, Hong
Kong. Maybe it would just my
clowniness will ooze into the episode.
That's. True.
And I might just have to yes, Andrew, the entire time.
I might just have to throw a rubber chicken on your face.
(43:11):
OK, bye for now. Until next time, you can find me
on Facebook at Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing
and on Instagram at Savannah Hawk.
Remember, that's HAUK and to learn more, go to my website
livingwithcrossdressing.com. And you can find me on Instagram
(43:33):
and Facebook at Fox and Hangar or at Julie MTF Style, as well
as on our website at foxandhangar.com.
Julie, it's your moment. The Fox and the Phoenix podcast
uses Spotify for creators. Copyright 2025.
(43:53):
Yes, nailed it.
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