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January 30, 2024 64 mins

Step inside the shadowy realm of America's death penalty with Dr. Bill Kimberlin, clinical psychologist and author of "Watch Me Die," who shares chilling encounters and thought-provoking insights. You'll be captivated by his narratives of mingling with Death Row's most notorious, like the BTK killer, offering a rare glimpse into the psyches behind the prison bars.

This episode is far from a mere recount of macabre tales; it's an exploration of the complex human experiences that unfold within Death Row's confines. Unpack the perplexing relationships researchers forge with inmates, the unexpected liberties prisoners possess, and the daunting emotional tightrope walked by those who dare to engage with them. Dr. Kimberlin's anecdotes serve as a haunting illustration of the dichotomy between the monstrous deeds and the startlingly human traits of these condemned individuals.

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode of the Fuzzy Mike contains explicit
language and lurid details thatsome may find disturbing.
Listener discretion is advised.
Welcome to the Fuzzy Mike.
The interview series, thepodcast, whatever Kevin wants to
call it, it's Fuzzy Mike.
Hello, welcome to the FuzzyMike and thank you for listening

This episode is set updifferently than our usual
We don't have an openingmonologue, nor do we have weekly
update news stories.
In fact, there's considerationto moving those elements to
their own episode called FridayFunnies and then keeping just
our interviews to Tuesday Talks.
Your advice and opinion arewelcomed and appreciated on what

we should do, so please emailus at thefuzzymic at gmailcom.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
And let us know.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
The discretion warning at the beginning of this
episode was not forsensationalism.
Portions of this episode may beshocking.
My guest today is Dr BillKimberlin, a clinical
psychologist, professor ofpsychology and author of the
book Watch Me Die Last Wordsfrom Death Row.
He's been studying andcorresponding with Death Row

inmates for over 20 years andhas witnessed several executions
At the request of the condemned, I record my episodes so that I
can provide you the bestpossible content and clearest
This conversation happened atnoon central time on January
25th 2024, the day that thestate of Alabama was scheduled

to execute Kenneth Smith byNitrogen Hypoxia, the first time
this method would ever be usedin an execution.
Today could be an historic dayin the death penalty in America,
don't you think?

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Absolutely, With Alabama and the Nitrogen Hypoxia
execution that's scheduledabsolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
What do you think is going tohappen with that you?

Speaker 2 (01:55):
know that's tough.
I hate to predict anything,especially when it comes to
those types of cases, but I meanusually when the state has it
in their mind that they want tokill you, they're going to kill

Speaker 1 (02:10):
So this would be the second time.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
So I had a guy by the last name of Rume I believe it
was in Ohio.
He survived the first one wherethey ran out of the drugs.
They missed all the veins andhe was reset but then ended up
dying from COVID.
But yeah, I mean I've attendedthree different executions by

lethal injection, all threedifferent ones, and it's not
like putting a dog to sleep byany means.
I mean the first one took overtwo hours.
That was the Chris Newton.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
Who is an interesting case in your book.
Watch Me Die.
Dr Bill Kimberlin is my guesttoday on the Fuzzy Mike and what
we're talking about is thedeath penalty.
I wanted to just jump right inwith the book because you say
and you go to great lengths inthe book to say you're not
trying to change anyone'sopinion about the death penalty.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
So I'm not here to persuadeanyone one way or the other.
My goal was always and has beento educate them, for people to
make an informed, educateddecision one way or the other,
Instead of having that visceral.
You know I'm all for it or allagainst it one way or the other.

I do say that and I do believethat it is a broken system.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
Oh, I don't think there's any disagreement there.
I think our whole politicalsystem and I think our whole
judicial system is completelybroken.
I mean, even so far as to thebase crime.
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
You had access to how manyinmates on death row in Ohio.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
All of them.
So I have been to death rowsall over the country and it's
not like what you see on TV atall.
They're not handcuffed, they'renot shackled Like.
When I go to death row here inFlorida, there's 25 death row
inmates around me at all times.
We can go up to the canteen,order, you know, burgers, pizza,

ice cream you name it playcards.
You can take pictures witheverything.
The only one would be sayingwhen were they actually locking
the cage with them?

Speaker 1 (04:20):
Okay, but you just said they're not shackled and
you're not shackled and there'sno way.
There's complete interaction.
How do you not get attacked?

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Well, you know I've shown them a lot of respect over
the years and they appreciatethat.
That's why they invite me there.
I've never sold anything thatthey sent me.
I've never sold them out.
They've confessed other murdersto me.
Obviously we'll work in a fewprojects to recover some victims

that way.
But those serial killers knowthat I'm doing that as well.
You know, it's just, it's afine line that I have to walk.
You know you have to get into adifferent character when you
walk into death row Because nomatter what they tell you, you
have to act as though it doesn'tshock you, that it doesn't faze

you, that you laugh and jokewith them and you treat them the
same way that you would want tobe treated back.
So I've been told.
Actually one of them in Ohio,cleveland Jackson's, when they
told me one time the guards willlet you in, we'd decide if you
could do the leave or not.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
Oh, geez, wow, that's got to be a sobering thought.

Speaker 2 (05:40):

Speaker 1 (05:41):
But you can't react to that.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
Absolutely not.
And they try to.
They try to elicit thatresponse from you in order to
get that reaction to see ifyou're there to really just try
and probe into their case or ifthey are, or if you're there
because you want to learn fromthem.

So I have spent countless dayson death row never speaking
about their case.
I'll talk about the weather,politics and everything else
until they eventually they'llsay you know, don't you want to
know what I did?
And again I joke with them,just like I do with anybody else
I'll say something along thelines of well, obviously you

killed somebody, just likeeverybody else in here, and you
suck at it, so otherwise wewouldn't be talking, and that
usually will lighten the mood upand you know.
And then I'll say do you wantto?
You know, you know a MountainDew or something like that, and
we'll get them, whatever theywant.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
You know, you just brought up, you just brought up
He's featured in your book.
He's a diminutive AfricanAmerican guy who has the most
charming smile.
What does the typical death rowinmate look like?

Speaker 2 (06:54):
So it depends on how many murders they've committed,
how long they've been there.
Sometimes it wears on them.
You know somebody like AnthonySowell who is deceased now.
Very fit.
The guy down here in Floridathat I see regularly, brandy

He's probably a good 6'6",maybe you know 290.
Very, you know, intimidatinglooking.
I think he killed three peoplein Naples and in a cracker
barrel as he was robbing it andthrew him in the freezer and
then took off.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
So you'll see them all different sizes If we saw
them on the street, would weautomatically think, oh my God,
there's a killer?
Absolutely not.

Speaker 2 (07:41):
No, that's.
The only common denominatorthat I've ever found is that
they are dangerously normal.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
Dangerously normal and when you first started
having contact with death rowinmates, how did that come about

Speaker 2 (07:57):
You know that was a fluke.
So I was teaching in LorraineCommunity College.
I had received my doctorate inpsychology.
I always said I was never goingto be the type of professor
that would teach book smartsonly.
So a few of the classes that Iwas teaching were abnormal
psychology and social psychologyand of course you talk about

the most highly debated topicsin those courses.
You know the legalization ofdrugs, gun laws, abortion rights
and then of course, capitalpunishment.
Well, I've been fortunate enoughto go to different countries so
I knew enough about the druglaws I've hunted all my life.
So gun laws I knew quite a bitabout.
I had counseled females fromabortion clinics and had been to

one before.
But when it came to the deathpenalty the only thing I knew
was just research.
So my best friend who is acommon police court judge, roger
Burnett, in Erie County, ohiohe gave me the number at the
time, betty Montgomery, who wasthe attorney general he said
give her office a call and seeif they can help you out.

And I thought me, being asnaive as I was at the time, I
I said hey, I need to be put onthe list lottery or something
for whether it's an execution ordeath row or however it works.
And they hung up on me and Ithought, well, that's kind of
So I called back and I'm like Idon't think you really
And she's like no, I don'tthink you understand.

There's the Ohio revised codethat sets the laws in who can go
to death row, who can win anexecution and everything else.
So, but since we've neverreally been asked this question,
I'm going to send you the listof all the inmates that are
scheduled to die in the nextcouple of years and the Ohio
revised code outlining it, andif you find any loopholes, have

So she did.
I found some loopholes.
I went to death row thinking Iwas only going to go one or two
times, and right off the bat,one of them asked me if I wanted
to watch him die.
So that started my journey.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
I always thought it would be great to write a serial
killer, get information fromthem and then create a podcast
and read their letters.
Okay, but I've never done that,and you explain the reason why.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
So I remember when I was dealing with Dennis Rader,
btk, btk.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
And he assigned us code words.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
I was Dr Will instead of Bill and he was, I think,
cancer Pisces or something likethat.
Well, I think I referenced himas BTK one time, whether it's on
social media or something, andthen instantly that upset him
and he put me in what was calledcarbon freeze and I haven't
spoken to him since.
I have tons of letters of hisartwork and everything else

where he signed everything overto me in that.
But they are very conscious ofwhat goes on in the outside
They also know everything aboutyou and that's what the
hobbyists or the enthusiaststhey don't realize.
So when I'm asked some of themost personal questions by
inmates on death row information, I tell them the absolute truth

because they wouldn't ask thatquestion if they didn't already
know the answer.
That's why they all know whereI live.
They know all about my family,they and they'll send subtle
I have a down here that I canshow that.
Actually a friend.
But when my son who scored overa thousand points in his
basketball, the person knew Wow,and that was the mascot.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
But you, the mascot, you knew how many points and
painted it for me and this isyour son they're talking about,
and I know that that your wifehas actually had comments made
about her in some of the letters.
This is in your book Watch medie.
Oh, people don't realize theaccess that these condemned
individuals have.
Explain what they have accessto on death row.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
So they have access to.
So, for instance, on a day liketoday, I'll have countless
emails from various death rowinstitutions all over the day,
different states.
So there's different servers,whether it's J pay, secure is
getting out things of thatnature so they can email, they

can call anytime.
All the time they're out oftheir cells for the most part
more than they're in this cells.
They have order lists so theycan order from any of the, just
like you would like a public orKroger's or something like that.
You know they have people orderfor them so they can get all

the different foods that you andI can get at the grocery store.
You name it.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
They they have access to it.
This is death row inmates we'retalking about, who have the
same access that you and I have,basically, absolutely.
Are you ever afraid thatsomebody on the inside is going
to contact somebody on theoutside, that maybe they know
and have them show up at yourhouse?

Speaker 2 (13:07):
You know I would be lying if I said that it's never
crossed my mind.
But you know I've had packagesshow up at my house Again, just
their little ways, subtle waysof letting them know you know
where, they know where you live,because I have a post office
But I've had him to write me.
Stephen Hugley, he was a prettybad guy out and I think

Tennessee death row killed Idon't like five people.
Last person he killed was hisprison counselor psychologist.
But he asked me one time isthere any reason why I'm sending
this to your post office boxinstead of?
And then he listed the addresswhere I lived and everything
like that wouldn't be mucheasier than that.
I'm like, yes, you're go ahead,you know.
So you just, you know you brushit off.
But then you know.

But like my daughter, herfavorite singer is Stevie, next
from Fleetwood Mac.
And next thing you know there's, you know, paintings and
drawing showed up of Stevie nextWithout me telling them.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
you know, this is an interesting part of Watch Me Die
, your book, where you talkabout some of the cases that in
some of the individuals that youmet and can I, can I say kind
of be friended, they think thatI'm their friend.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
Right, myself, I treat them as a subject, you
know, in my mind.
So when they die, they'reexecuted.
I closed the file and move onthe artwork that they send me,
which I guess that I have over3000 pieces it's, it's
categorized and organized.
You know, halfway decent withmy, for my wife, not me I open

it up, I look at it, I thinkmaybe a couple of pictures here
and there, I throw it over inthe corner.
She comes home, she, jesusChrist Not again, you know and
then, but she can recognize allthe artists, all the death row.
She's actually been asked tocome to death row with me and
she's like no freaking way.
You know, she's a teacher,she's here to retire from
She has no desire for any ofthat whatsoever.

So if my kids are the same way,they, you know, they've lived
it all, their pretty much alltheir life.
So you know, if I'm leavingpaintings on the table from, you
know, scott Peterson orsomebody like that, next thing,
I know they're using it as acoaster because it's my own
fault for not putting it away.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
I want to talk about some of the individual cases.
You just mentioned a few namesright there, but I also want to
talk about how in the book andyou say that hobbyists should
not get involved in this kind ofstuff because you don't know
exactly what goes on how longdid it take you to realize what
goes on?

Speaker 2 (15:43):
I think the first couple of times that I went to
death row and I realized, okay,the guards are somebody that I
don't want to be friend.
I don't want the inmates seeingme talk to the guards or offer
any information to them.
I was locked outside in theyard one time in Mansfield State

Penitentiary where death rowwas at in Ohio at one time, all
by myself, and I know the guardscan watch me on the cameras and
they were sweating me.
But you know they let me in ondeath row and they're like you
guys down there, you know, gofinding.
And I'm walking right on deathrow just looking around.
I mean I was walking around inthe same Quentin when I showed
up, not knowing you couldn'twear jeans the first time and

they let me go over to theprison house to dress me and
then I had to walk all throughthe same Quentin to find a
condemned row and it's almostlike I was on camera.
You know you get into this areaand it says you know, condemned
And I'm like what the hell do Ido now?
Do I knock on the door?
Or, you know, bring a buzzer,who does that?
But that's what I did and ofcourse they asked what do you

I'm like I in, I guess you know, and they let me in, and there
was a serial killer by the nameof Jablonsky at the time and you
know, they locked me in thecage right along with him.
It's a different world.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
It's got to be a different world.
And I have this fascinationobviously because you and I are
talking and I read a lot aboutdeath row and serial killers.
I don't think I could do it,bill.
I don't think I could walk inthere and look confident and not
look like I'm scared.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
You know, the best way that I can describe it is
and everything about me is a lie.
When I cross that thresholdinto death row, everything about
me is a lie.
So when I act calm, cool andcollective I'm not, you know I

will amp myself up with so muchcaffeine to keep my head on a
swivel to stay alert.
Complacency is not a good thingto have on death row,
especially when you aresurrounded by killers that have
nothing to lose whatsoever.
In fact, there was one time Iwas a little nervous when I was

with, I think, fred Treish, hadlast meal with him and we had
eight hours on death row alonein our own pod where we could
walk up and down freely, becausehe was getting ready to be
transported to Lucasville, wherethe death chamber is in Ohio,
and I was to witness his as well.

And he's like God damn it,kimberly.
I mean, it's like you know, ifI can't believe you're going to
finally kill me.
I was thinking you know, if Ikill one more person, then they
can't put me to death in acouple days, right, they'd have
to try me, right?
And I'm looking around, I'mlike just a second, I'm the only
person, so instantly I don'tknow where I pulled it out from.

I'm like you know, listen, dude, they're going to put you to
death anyways.
Try an abstentia.
You're going to embarrass yourfamily even more, but either way
, you're going to die in acouple of days.
Barring any last minute stayfrom from the Supreme Court.
So you just need to, you know,calm down and go easy.

And he's like man.
Thanks, kim bro, that's what Ihave you here for.
And I'm thinking, phew, thankme.
No, man, I have no idea what Ijust said.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
There's an outlandish story in the book Watch Me Die
about Fred Teesh.
I want to get to that.
I also want to talk about theirkillers, but they're always
concerned about you and thesafety and health of your family
Explain that.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
Weird, isn't it?
Very I wish, I really wish Icould.
So you know, it's odd becausemy research, like it, goes way
beyond just the individual.
I think, a lot of the hobbyistsout there, the enthusiasts, the
ones that just want to get intoit all.
They want to get right to theyou know the what did you do and
why did you do it.

And I look at things likethey're postage.
You know, nothing is free inprison.
You know, I'll look at.
When somebody like this guyhere sends me this today so I
haven't even been opened yet Ilook at, okay, how much postage
did he send?
And it feels hard.
So it's probably on a Blickboard, meaning it's expensive,
it's probably acrylic paint, andso those are things I'm

Why are they so concerned andfascinated with making sure that
I have the best of everything?
You know I have the only nativefemale Native American on death
She killed five people and youknow she sends me these gory
You know, and I can't evenreally explain them They've

never been opened yet.
I've had it for like two years.
They're in this bag.

Speaker 1 (20:42):

Speaker 2 (20:43):
And they're heavy.
So you know they all try to oneup one another and shock you.
So, like David Allen's, when hepaints anything for my wife
it's usually out of semen, youknow when back up he paints
using what?
So they'll send a beautiful card.
I don't know if you can see itor not, it'll.

You know it's a really nicecards that they get.
You know this is a Hallmark,$3.50.
And then what they'll do isthey'll.
Whenever he writes on them youknow, this is special one for a
wifey, because he knows I callher wifey.
And then it's another specialone for a wifey.

And then you, you look at themand you realize you know, okay,
they look decent, I guess, orwhatever.
But then he'll explain thatit's made with semen.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
Oh my.

Speaker 2 (21:35):
God, I'll have them.
There's plenty of them that Iget from Jennings that's made
from human blood, so dang.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
I know in your book you go you talk about David
He's one of the subjects.
He lost his virginity at 10years of age and then became a
sex addict.
Is that why he uses thatparticular medium?

Speaker 2 (21:56):
He does so like a typical letter from him.
And again, just to warn youraudience is that it's very
graphic in nature, theexpressions that he uses.
He said you know, I hope thispackage finds you well and good.

I would like a photo of Wifey,if that's okay, and of course
one of you.
I like Wifey as she seems open.
I like all that there is.
He goes on to talk about hispainting then, but I like
sucking a woman's pussy in acock now and then.

Does that make me a bad person?
All question marks.
I hope not.
Would you mind me suckingWifey's pussy and fucking her
now and then?
Just let me know I'm open andwilling.
Wifey I said hi and let herknow that the paintings are for

her, made from me especially.
And then you know he hasdifferent drawings on top they
are at the bottom of it of youknow, supposedly him doing her
and everything else.
Those are the ones that creepWifey out Well, I can imagine.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
So that mean they creep me out?
Is he expecting a response tothat, or is that just for shock

Speaker 2 (23:26):
I think he thinks that maybe I think he was hoping
that I would send a picture ofher.
I never have, never will, butit doesn't stop him from asking.
The worst that can happen is Isay no, but for them.
The worst feeling for them isto be forgotten.
So I'll ice them for a while.

So I probably have maybe, ohmaybe, a dozen emails sitting
there right now that I haven'teven opened.
That's been there for a fewweeks and then I'll open them up
and then I'll respond, becausethen they start are you okay?
Hope everything's okay.
So are your family okay?
Things like that.
You know William Sapp, who'skilled.

You know they've estimated upto 50 people.
A decent artist, depending onwhat he does.
I have maps of his body, butyou know he sometimes related to
Bob Evil.
But you know he starts it out,he readings and salutations.
How are you doing and feelingtoday?
How's life treating you Good?
I would hope, and I pray, Ihope that the new year is

enjoying that you're enjoying sofar.
I just finished anotherpainting, putting it in the mail
today, getting ready to do onemore.
I'll be sending them alsoBefore close.
I will get this out there.
Have a great day.
Keep smiling while built.
Now, this is the person thatthinks nothing of taking human

lives any chance he gets, yethe's worried about you.
Know my health wishes.
You know readings andsalutations everything.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
Well, and he paints like Bob Ross.
You have a piece of artwork onyour Instagram that he painted.
That's just phenomenal.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
So, and again, that's another thing that people don't
really realize is that for themost part, when people first of
all there's a lot of money onthem and an exorbitant amount of
money to get paintings andletters so they can resell them
there's murder, bilia sites andthings like that, so they'll

paint a lot of nature scenes,religious scenes, things like
that what I'll do is I'llfinally say, oh hey, you know
it's great, you know painting bynumbers or whatever you're
doing, but paint me somethingthat's inside your head.
I don't want to see this shitbecause everybody does it.
And then when I tell themeverybody does it or that it's

not really impressive, then thedark art comes out and then that
tells me what's in their mind,because for the most part
they're trying to convinceeverybody that they change.
That's why it's rare to see thereally good dark art out there.
They don't want that out there.
They want people to think I'm achanged individual since being
on death row, that I'm religiousand everything else.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
Two things.
With that Number one, you useyour psychology background.
You're a psychologist andthat's how you're able to get
that information from them.
You're tapping into yourexpertise.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
The psychology background definitely helps.
None of this did I learn inschool whatsoever.
I don't really teach you how totalk to serial killers, mass
murders and people like that,but you do.
Over the years I've stumbledmany times.
When I first started out lost alot of people just because I

had asked the wrong questions atthe wrong time.
So it was a work in progress.
I've been doing it for I don'tknow, I guess going on 20 years
now, and it's always evolving.
So I don't know how to ask themcertain questions without being

too forward.
So when I get their response,then I know what they're talking

Speaker 1 (27:18):
Can death row inmates change.

Speaker 2 (27:19):
I haven't seen one change yet.
I haven't seen one remorsefulyet.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
Not one single shred of remorse from any of them.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
No, wow.
Can I contribute that to thefact that they are incapable of
Or is it because they are in anenvironment that metastasizes,
that continuously grows thatthought process?

Because when you're surroundedby murders and serial killers,
then you're going to keepdeveloping that mentality.
So it's either they are owningup to it or they didn't do it at
But the ones that say theydidn't do it at all, there's

nothing to be remorseful aboutin their mind.
The ones that own up to it, asin is a sin.
If I steal a Diet Coke, it'sthe same sin as if they take a
human life.
It's quite rare to see suicideon death row.
They're not afraid to killanybody but themselves.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
You say that in the book.
You mentioned earlier that thedeath row inmates are able to
interact with each other.
How do they get along with eachother?

Speaker 2 (28:41):
It depends.
There are some that are how doI put this?
Drugs are available on deathrow alcohol, cell phones, things
that are not permitted but theyare still there.
I have guys on death row inOhio that will get upset with a

certain individual on death rowwith them who will get too
intoxicated or smoke too muchweed and cause too much of a
ruckus, to where the guards haveto come in and try to clean it
up a little bit.
Then that pisses them off.

Speaker 1 (29:19):
Right about this, but there is no way Fred Teesh's
mom did that.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
One would like to think that that would be too
grotesque to do, but yes, yes,she would smuggle that in.
Yes, that way.

Speaker 1 (29:39):
We're talking about a death row inmates.

Speaker 2 (29:41):
Mom who would smuggle drugs into him in prison with a
condom that he would eat andswallow and then excrete out and
then take the crisp $100 billout and then trade that for
crack that the guard wouldsupply.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
The guard would supply.
What do guards think aboutdeath row inmates?

Speaker 2 (30:08):
guards haven't made on death row.
It's the easiest population togovern or control because of the
fact that they're not youngkids, the gang bangers and
people like that.
They know that.
They're all there.
For the same reason Don't ask,don't tell.

You don't see a whole lot inthe media about how much free
reign they really have.
Therefore, the general publicthinks okay, they're on 23 out
of 24 hours a day.
They pump an hour of sunlightin, they get put in a dog cage
for an hour or whatever.
It's not like that.
That's what I thought.
Yes, of course.
How I explain it?

Right now, where I'm free tomove around with them, we're
currently working on a project,hopefully, that will be made
into a documentary series.
If we film inside the prison,you will see them shackled and
chained, sometimes behind glass.
They want that appearance ofsafe and secure for the public

when they see that in the media,but the reality is it's never
that safe.
It's never that secure.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
The reality is that in the book Watch Me Die that
you wrote, you say that youwould caution a family seeking
the death penalty.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
Yes, why yes, again, the general public doesn't
really understand the fact thatthere's one person, one person
only, that can determine if theyare going to go for capital
murder, death penalty.
If it's a state that has it,that would be the prosecutor A

lot of times prosecutors becauseof them being elected officials
They want to move up in theranks as well.
It's a notch on the bed post.
They'll sell it to the victim'sfamilies.
This person deserves to die.
He will live in the worstconditions ever and they will
put him to death.
What they don't understandprobably because most of them

have never been there is thatthat family will have to, for
decades probably, relive thatentire murder over and over,
throughout every appeal waitingfor that closure to start, which
never happens.

Nine times out of 10, themajority of the family members
are deceased before that personis ever put to death.
If they're ever put to death,the average is 20 years on death
Once they see that person putto death, then their closure can

My professional opinion is putthem in prison for life without
Forget about them.
I know it's easier said thandone.
Forget they even exist.
Don't let them control you,because my inmates have told me.
They file those appeals so theycan control them.
They will fire their attorneysin order to get the discovery

themselves, which is just a fewof the photos that have been
sent to me hidden on the back ofpaintings.
This was done by a guy inOhio's death row who shanked him
Those are the actual photos.

Those aren't copies or anything.
Those were taken to the back ofpaintings in order for me to
have them.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
Is that what Christopher Newton sent you?

Speaker 2 (33:45):
Christopher Newton.
His was a little differentbecause I actually have his
entire case.
There's probably six full-sizedlarge boxes.
I had to take my pickup truckdown to Columbus, ohio, to the
public defender's office when hesigned the case over to me and
haul it back in a truck that Ihave as well.

That was given to me illegallybecause it was transferred over
to me.
These photos here were taped onthe back of paintings and sent
to me because they didn'tinspect it.
They didn't look at the back ofthem to see what they really

Speaker 1 (34:24):
You also say that a victim's family seeking the
death penalty actually is givingthat condemned person a better

Speaker 2 (34:35):
They are.

Speaker 1 (34:36):
Because of the freedoms they have on death row.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
If you think of it this way and I'm certain you've
heard it in your audience it'sprobably heard a lot of times
Child molester, you go to prisonas a child molester.
You're not going to sleep well,you may wake up dead at any
They do not like childmolesters in general population.
Ever you put that childmolester who has killed a bunch

of people on death row.
They've all done that, so theydon't care.
So they're treated much better.
They have the single cell, youknow.
They can still freely movearound amongst their pod and
things like that.
They don't have to look overtheir shoulder ever where if the
person went to general pop,they probably would not survive.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
Well, we saw that with Derek Chauvin in the George
Floyd case.
He was just shanked but he's,in general, pop.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
General population is a dangerous place to be.
Death row is very quiet, it'svery clean, it's very organized.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
And you mentioned earlier that you're probably
going to get another 20 years oflife because the appeals
process, absolutely.
Why does it take so long to puta person to death in the United

Speaker 2 (35:50):
Well, I guess the bigger question is why in the
United States are we puttingpeople to death?
Okay, you know in 2024.
So you know, we can't figureout our healthcare system, we
can't figure out our educationalsystem, we certainly can't get
the political partiesstraightened out.
So what makes us think that weare so intelligent that we can

take another human life?
And not only that, very fewstates anymore are actually
doing it.
Now the federal governmentsupersedes it.
So if I'm in New York and Ikill somebody you know, or three
people or whatever like that,I'm not getting the death
But if I kill them on, say, inthe post office or on a federal

property or I do something thatcommits a federal crime in the
meantime, then they can enactthe death penalty and they're
sent to Terre Hoot, indiana, orADX.
But they always put all of themto death at Terre Hoot.
In fact I was supposed towitness one a couple years ago
there of the one and only femalefederal death row I made, lisa

She was one of mine, but thenCOVID hit.
They wouldn't let me in.
They still put her to death,first female in 70 years.
I think she's one that took andkilled the lady who was
pregnant, killed her in her ownkitchen and cut the baby out,
kidnapped the baby and took itacross state lines and kept the

baby for like a week before theycaught her.
That child was still alive and,you know, in living.
But that's what made it afederal crime is the kidnapping
across state lines.
So they put her to death.
And it's yeah, it's.
The United States is in Japanare about the only two
industrialized nations in theworld that really enact the

death penalty.
So Canada does not, mexico doesnot, europe does not.
Yet we do.
And you know, looking attonight's news, it'll be
interesting to see if Alabamacarries that execution out with
the nitrous.
You know hypoxia and see howthat works.
Again you'll.

If you watch the news, you'llhear the arguments nonstop today
and all week long is it's neverbeen tried, it's never been
You know it's cruel and unusualand everything else, but they
still never really ask toughquestions is why are we doing it
to begin with?
Number one and number two wenever had any of these issues

ever until we started enactingthe death penalty.
That required medical advice.
So there's no doctors involved,there's no nurses involved, yet
we're utilizing medicaltechniques, whether it is the
lethal injection, whether it isnow the nitrous or whatever.

A doctor doesn't need to beinvolved in the gallows, it
The doctor doesn't need to beinvolved in electrocution, they
certainly don't need to beinvolved in the firing squad.
So it's always they're arguingabout they can't get the drugs
because of the drug makers.
And now this new one here every.
As far as I know, none of themhad ever really been tested on a

human to say, okay, it works,let's use it.
So you know it's a falseargument, but again, it's
More often than not you willsee hardline red state sort of
Republicans that are very muchfor the death penalty, and then
the democratic side of thespectrum is against it.

So, and it shouldn't bepolitical at all.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
But you're absolutely right that that's the way that
it kind of separates itself onthe political spectrum in the
United States.
You mentioned Alabama and againthis is recorded on the 25th,
and that's this is the day whereAlabama is supposed to try
nitrogen hypoxia to put aninmate to death.
Can you walk us through thelast 24 hours for this inmate?

Speaker 2 (40:06):
So this inmate would.
He would be placed in what'scalled the death cell.
They are under 24 hoursurveillance.
So that means if that personbrushes their teeth, uses a
restroom, writes a letter,whatever they're doing, it's
recorded so and then they'llhave their last meal.

Each state could be different.
Texas is whatever they serve.
You know, that day in Ohio whenwe ordered with Fred Treish it
was, they actually delivered itto the prison $80 worth of
Italian food.
So I can't speak for Alabamabecause I'm not, of course,
familiar with it, with theirs.

But you know they'll have therights to phone calls and
visitation and things like thatup until a few hours before, and
then they will prepare them andthey will make them walk to the
death chamber where they'restrapped to the gurney.
They're allowed to make a laststatement if they choose to.

There is a phone on the walljust in case.
You know, the governor of theSupreme Court, you know, calls
in and gives grants him thatstay the warden at some point
will give the signal that nobodytypically knows in Ohio
whenever he buttoned his topbutton on his blazer, that

signal to the executioners to goahead and start the lethal
There's a couple of them.
So nobody knows.
You know who's doing the actualadministration of the drugs.
And then the two people youwill never see is the physician
and the executioner.
So when the curtain closes, thedoctor will come out to

pronounce them dead and thenthey will leave.
Then the curtain opens back upand then the executioner is
always hidden.
Typically it's like a deer inheadlights.
So what is it like for you?
Wow that's.
You know that's a toughquestion.
So it's not like you'revisiting somebody in hospice

that is suffering.
That you know.
You're saying to yourself.
You know, just, it's time to go.
You know, end your suffering.
This is a person I could havebeen talking to an hour earlier
and is in you know fine healthspirits and everything else.
And then you are walked over tothe other side of the glass,
sat down, and then you have towatch that person be legally

murdered by you know that state.
So it's very surreal.
In Ohio it was about four hour,about a four hour drive from my
home at the time to Lucasville.
So I did that by myself justbecause I had to clear my head.
You know the phone would beringing nonstop.
You know people want, you knowquotes, you know papers and

they'll make stuff up, even ifyou, I never, I never gave a
paper or magazine any quotes forany of the executions.
Yet, you know, by the time Igot home I was either their
personal psychologist, theirattorney, their best friend and
everything else, and they printthat stuff.
But I mean it's.
I needed that four hours ofsolitude just to collect my

thoughts and process it myself.
So then of course you have todeal with family and friends,
who have their curiosity.
You know, it's human nature, soof course they want to know
what was the life, you knoweverything else, and I just
really don't like to talk aboutit.
And following an execution justlike I don't really like to
talk about what I come out ofdeath row because I am, my

senses are so heightened thatit's time for me to just try to
regain my composure, be mynormal self.
So I'm not that liar that goesinto death row where I'm acting
like everything is fine and thatI like this individual, you
know, keeping in mind also thevictims families and wondering

how do they perceive me, becauseyou know, of course the inmates
are going to see me as theirbest friend and confidant and I
don't want the victims familymembers to ever think that you
A lot of the serial killersthat I'm dealing with right now
are because I want to find someclosure to some bodies for those

family members.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
Yeah, how many people are able to witness an

Speaker 2 (44:41):
Typically three on each side, so the state has
three and the defense has three.
So you have to be invited bythe condemned individual.
One of three.
I was always one of three.

Speaker 1 (44:54):
Have you ever turned into one now?

Speaker 2 (44:57):
I missed a couple Sounds horrible.
The first one was JeffreyLundgren, who was a cult killer
in Ohio.
He arranged the attorneysarranged it for me.
That's when I first started outand I called the prison to see
if there was going to be a stayor not.
They said, yeah, he's not goingto get put to death.
So I didn't bother making thedrive and then they put him to

And then there was another onethat again, sometimes I just
don't open up the letters allthe time because you just have
to step away from it.
And I opened a letter that wasthat I found that was months old
It was one that asked me towitness his, and he has already.
He was already executed, so butI have like six more that have
been asked to attend one byelectrocution down here in

Florida whenever that happens.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
So so you have to sign a waiver?
Yeah, okay, well, they had tosign a waiver for the one that's
taking place in Alabama,because there is a possibility
that witnesses could die as wellif the nitrogen leaks.
Would you still do it?
Would you sign that waiver?

Speaker 2 (46:00):
Certainly I would If I felt that I let me back.
Let me back that up a littlebit If I felt that it was
educational enough for me toattend that, because, again,
there's a fine line betweenobsessive, being obsessive over
it and learning from it.
That one I would probablyattend only because it would be

the first one and to see how itworks.
I do think that the waiversthat they're asking people to
sign is more of a publicitystunt than anything.
Okay, realistically, nobody isgoing to ever smell or see or
feel anything in the executionchamber, because you're
separated, there is a thickglass wall in front of you and

you can't even.
Yeah, I mean, that's just notgoing to happen, but it does
make for good press.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
Well, they're talking about.
The person who might be themost at risk is the spiritual
advisor who says he's only goingto be three feet away from the
Is that your experience now?

Speaker 2 (47:08):
You know, I think again.
If I'm not mistaken, thisindividual that's that's being
put to death.
When the first attempt failed,I think it was his suggestion
that they use nitrous.
Oh okay next time, and sosometimes you have to be careful
what you wish for going so verytrue.
Now, all of a sudden it's hereand again.

Attorneys and Others are veryCreative when it comes to
Whatever they can do to get astay.
I had one that got a reallygood stay.
I think his name was KennethSmith or something Ohio, he Get
a tricky out of me.
So he couldn't speak unless hewas holding down on it and he

also couldn't lie flat Becauseof the fact that then he would
So the prison agreed that theywould not strap the other arm
down until after he made hisfinal statement and then that
they would tilt the table up sohe wouldn't have to be lying
completely down.
When they did the lethalinjection, they said okay, fine,

they did that.
They filed a last-minute appealStating that if they were
willing to do that, then that'sobvious, that they don't have a
death row Protocol, and theSupreme Court agreed and give
him a stay.
Interesting, yeah, yeah.
So there's a lot ofbehind-the-scenes stuff that
goes on.
Now, when I, when I witnessedthe executions, I'm with the

defense team, I also really donot speak to the defense team.
I sit there in the corner and Iwrite down what they're talking
about and I know in the moviesyou see, like the last minute.
They're shuffling papers.
You know they're trying tofigure out this, this, this.
I've never experienced that inmy life it's.
Would you guys eat last night?
Would you guys stay?
You know what you got going ontomorrow, I learned.
One female defense attorneyasked me, since I'd been to

these before, she had and dothey ever start a merly?
Now, my mind, I'm thinkingJesus Christ, it's your, that's
your client.
Aren't you supposed to be doingsomething about that?
I had another attorney saying Ihave like three more of these
to go through yet this year andI'm thinking to myself man, you
must really suck at your job ifyou already planned on Attending
Aren't you supposed to be anattorney?

So I mean.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
I was pretty flabbergasted when I read that
female attorney Defense attorneywill ask in that question in
your book watch me die, you alsoTalk about the different ways
that the United States carriesout executions.
You we talked about it earlierwith with the humane quote, the
humane way of lethal injection.

What do you think is the mosthumane way?
Firing squad?
I think so too, the firingsquad.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
Yeah, I think South Carolina, just just past it.
I think last year they wentback to that, utah did.
Ohio is looking at going backto that or going to that as an
alternative method.
I mean, you have five sharpshooters, you know One blank
bullet, four live ones.
Nobody knows who has it.
You know, 25 yards away orwhatever, 20 feet away, heart

tag over your heart, you're deadinstantly.
There's no question about it.

Speaker 1 (50:16):
Yeah well, utah is famous because when the death
penalty got reinstated inAmerica, gary Gilmore was the
first, the first inmate to beexecuted.
He chose firing squad.
If you ever want to watch agreat movie, watch the
executioner song.
It's about this.
It's the book written by NormanMailer.
It's phenomenal Tommy Lee Jones, eli Wallach and Rosanna

It's phenomenal.
And that's where I got my ideathat why are we messing with

Speaker 2 (50:43):
That's the most humane way to go and there's
always gonna be bullets,absolutely and again it takes
away that the medical piecewhere now you're, you're, you're
placing, you know, untrainedindividuals Inside this
execution chamber to eitheradminister drugs and without an

anesthesiologist, without amedical doctor, without a
registered nurse, or thisnitrogen coxia without, again,
an anesthesiologist or anythingelse.
And I know that the media haskept saying well, we've talked
to veterinarians and they saidthat they would never even put
their dog down that way.
And Again, it's a good play onwords because I don't think
there's a vet out there thatwould also either electrocute

their dog or Put them in frontof the firing squad down either.
So when they say these thingsit sparks people's interest more
, but the reality is they justthey refuse to answer the the
largest question of why are wetaking a human life?
What are we serving the purposeof?
If our purpose is to Removethat person from society, to

make sure that they never dothat again, then I think putting
them in a maximum securityprison for life without parole,
you've accomplished that goal.
But again, that's, you know,that's up to each individual to
decide and and I don't try topersuade one way or the other
that is my opinion.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
Okay, let's, let's add, let's, devils advocate this
Okay, what life in parole?
Then you have a guy night,christopher Newton, who kills
them prison.
Are you anybody?

Speaker 2 (52:23):
say in a cell.
Well, look at Silverstein Ithink it was his last name,
silverstein who just passed awaya few years ago.
They put him in Florence adx.
It's solitary confinement andhe lived there for the rest of
his life completely Solitaryconfinement, because he killed a
prison guard as well.
So you know, you can, if you,if you do that crime again in

the prison, then you, the, the,the graduated sanctions are
moved up so you will never bearound other humans again.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
That's a horrible life to live, granted, but that
is the life that you chosebrother, you don't have to
convince me, man, I don't wantto spend a second in prison.
I don't even want to visit.
Honestly, I mean, it's justthere.
Everything I've read andeverything I've seen, that's no
That's no life, you know, andto know you're never getting out
right Just crazy.

There's no hope.
Yeah, a couple of people I wantto talk about.
Who you highlight in the book.
We've already talked about FredT.
We got that story out of theway.
If you thought we glossed overit, great, go get watch me die.
Read about it.
It's in detail.
But I want to talk about FrankSpiezeck, and hopefully I'm
pronouncing that name correctly,because he went in, yes, and it

became a different person.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
Yeah, frank was.
He was unique.
Really goes in as yeah.
So he goes in as Frank Spiezeckwho in his mind he wanted to be
the leader of the Aryan nation,aryan brotherhood.
White supremacist Rue theHitler mustache was about the
same height Hated anybody thatwasn't white, anglo-saxon

He did gays, hated blacks,hated Jews everybody.
Fast forward to his tenure ondeath row, 28 years to be exact,
and he Not only did a complete180, but he changed his name to
Francis and he wanted to have asexual sex reassignment surgery.

He ended up having aAfrican-American minister and it
just went against everything hestood for.
When he went in after he shotlike five people at Cleveland
State University so, speaking toFrank at the time he was in his
death cell, I was the lastperson to speak to him the

Supreme Court sent over thedenial of his stay.
The guards handed it to him.
He's like well, I guess they'regonna do it.
You might as well take this andhe.
He was the one that I thoughtwas going to be remorseful at
the end because he had neverreally Exhibited anything that
we showed that he was Still thatold Frank Spieze.

They strap him down to thegurney, they allowing to make
his last statement, and what'she do?
But reads it off in German.
That just infuriates the otherwitnesses on the other side.
So that's that's what I mean byno remorse.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
Yeah, so much for remorse, right.
And then the other one thatinterested me a lot was and we
could have talked about thisearlier, but Anthony Soelle, he
got really jealous about yourAffiliations with other remates.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
Yeah, so well, killed the 11 people known as the
Cleveland Strangler in ClevelandOhio and lived with the bodies,
dismembered them, things likethat.
I was one of the first to everinterview him person to person
and I spent a lot of time withthem.
But he only wanted me to writeabout him.
He didn't want me to visit anyother inmates.
He knew when I was coming todeath row to visit other inmates

I would try to schedule blocksdays, so I'd spend four hours
with, say, sap, then maybe fourhours with treach, so I'd be
there eight hours a whole day.
And when, so well, found outthat I wasn't with him, only you
know he wanted me to, just youknow, focus on him, write a book
about him.

He wanted to be known as themost notorious serial killer and
and I wouldn't do it, so we hada little bit of a falling out.
Did anything about him, surpriseyou um, only whatever we spoke
about his mother and he wouldball like a baby.
And I'm thinking to myself youkilled 11 women, you dismembered

him, you live with the bodies,everything else you know.
I think I even referred to himas a whiny bitch, but, full
disclosure, I did not say thatto him in person Because I'm in
their house.
So I would never disrespectanybody on death row like that,
ever in the book.
I did.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
Who's the worst person you've ever met?

Speaker 2 (57:04):
So yeah, you know they're.
It's probably easier for me toname who I like to speak with
the most would be somebody likeScott Peterson, because he's
easy to talk to, he's educated,and I know that probably sparks
a lot of Hatred now that he's inthe news again, but I talked to

him about every two weeks and Ihave all of his paintings and
everything like that.
But again, I just I try to getinside of his head To figure out
where you know and and I haveno opinion one way or the other
of his guilt or innocence youknow, some of his letters have
led me to believe that maybepossibly he did do it.

But you know, that's that's upto the legal team, that's up to
you know, the innocence projectsI don't work with them.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
I was gonna do.
You know what this new evidenceis?
That innocence project saysthey have that will exonerate

Speaker 2 (57:59):
I believe it's something to do with a van that
was seen at the house across thestreet, possibly when the
burglary happened, that theypossibly got the dates wrong
with the burglary and there wasa bloodstained mattress in there
and things of that nature.
But I try not to research anyof that because the legalities

of it is irrelevant to me.
I still want to say he didn'tdo it.
I still want to learn what itwas like to be on death row for
the last few years.
Much changed in his mind, hismindset.
He's just easy to talk tocompared to a lot of the other
ones that are maybe not aseducated or drug addicted or

come from really bad familiesand things like that.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
So when we read Watch Me Die, the book that you've
written, and it's available onWild Blue Press, what is your

Speaker 2 (59:01):
I would hope that people would not take my word
for it, even though it isfactual, 100%, because I live it
But people should be able toquestion everything and then
they should take the time toresearch it on their own as well
, to see a good researcher, agood scientist, whatever.

They're not afraid to put outthe information out there to be
proven wrong and I'm not either.
So prove me wrong if need be,but then write about it, share
it with others.
Don't bottle it up.
It doesn't do any good to justhold on to it to yourself.
I want the public to becomemore educated about capital

punishment and the death penaltyin general so they can make up
their own decision, not becauseKimberlin said it's this way or
Kevin said it's that way orsomething like that.
I just want them to become moreeducated.
Just be thinkers, criticalthinking, absolutely.
What's been the feedback?
Very, very positive.

I've been approached from allover, different countries,
different shows and podcasts.
Like I said, right now I'mworking with a wiseful
production company CaitlinKeating and Henry Roosevelt.
I'm not certain if you'refamiliar with the Netflix

special Take Care of Maya.
Yes, it was number one.
So same crew, same individualsthat filmed that are the ones
that I'm working with and undercontract right now, so I
couldn't ask for a better team,but there's a lot of logistics
involved and a lot ofnegotiating and a lot of hoping

and things like that, so we'llsee where it goes.
But I do have some maps to somebodies and I'm hoping to focus
more on victims' families, Ithink.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
And then one final question, and it's posed to you
by a friend in the book, and itis at what point does this not
become your obsession?

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
I would like to say that if we were able to recover
the bodies from the maps that Ihave plural, because I have
numerous maps then I want towalk away from it all.
I want to get rid of all theart.
I want to get rid of all theletters.
I want to just walk away fromdeath row and never look back

and never go back to death rowagain.

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
What would you do with?

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
the letter.
That's my ultimate goal.

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
And the art.
What would you do with all ofthat?

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
You know it's funny that just because I just had an
offer from a gallery thatoffered to purchase the letters
and the art for upwards of abouta quarter of a million dollars
and I got to be honest with you,it's very enticing, you know,
when somebody says I'll give you225,000 if you give me
But if I do that, then myresearch is done.

I wouldn't be allowed back inprison because my safety would
be gone, my security would begone.
And I'm not finished yet.
At some point, when I doliquidate or get rid of it all,
I would like to think thatthere's some foundations out

there that could maybe put ittowards some victims' families,
domestic violence or violentcrimes.
You know, to try to help out inthat aspect as well.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
That's super magnanimous.
It's a slippery slope.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
It is it is.
Well, it's because I can't win.
I can't win either way.
If I take the money and run,then I'm the asshole because I
profited from all those murders,you know so.
But then if I sell it now andthen did donate some of the
proceeds, then I can't go backinto prison because then who

knows what they would do to me.

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
Yeah, well, it is a fascinating lifestyle that you
have, that has chosen you, andthanks for writing the book, man
It's a fascinating read, it's avery quick read and it is a, at
times, shocking read.
So, bill Kimberlin, thank youso much for joining me on the
Fuzzy Mic, thanks for writingWatch me die and continue

success to you, man.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
Thank you so much, Rambia, as an honor.
I appreciate everything you'vedone.

Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
My thanks to Bill Kimberlin for joining me and my
thanks to you for listening.
You can get the book Watch MeDie at wildbluepresscom.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please subscribe andleave a rating and review.
The only way I know how to giveyou the content that you want
is if you let me know.
Please tell your friends andfamily about the Fuzzy Mic.

Let's grow our club FuzzyThrough the naysayers wrong.
I appreciate you.
To stay connected with theFuzzy Mic, you can follow me on
Instagram, facebook, twitter orsend me an email at thefuzzymic
at gmailcom.
For video episodes, pleasesubscribe to the Fuzzy Mic
YouTube channel.
The Fuzzy Mic is hosted andproduced by Kevin Klein.

Production elements by ZachSheesh at the Radio Farm Social
Director is Trish Klein.
I'll be back next Tuesday witha new episode of the Fuzzy Mic.
It's going to be another greatone.
We'll go inside the cage andropes with famed combat sports
My friend, the golden voicedJoe Martinez, set your reminder.
Thank you again for listening.

That's it for the Fuzzy Mic.
Thank you, talk Fuzzy Mic withKevin Klein.
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