From Burnout to Balance with Max Schneider

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:21):
Hello all, my entrepreneurs and business leaders, and welcome to
the Michael Esposito Show, where I interview titans of industry
in order to inform, educate and inspire you to be great.
Before I introduce my guest, I just want to invite
all of you to our new Mastermind. It's called Take
Action Mastermind, and it is for entrepreneurs in the beginning stages.

(00:45):
If you have an idea, a thought, a vision, something
that you want to create and are just thinking about it,
or if you've already started your vision and are anywhere
from zero to three years in the process and the journey,
please just visit Michael spozito ink dot com to learn
more about the Mastermind. Let's get started. My guest today

(01:06):
spent a decade in consulting and he was totally burnt out.
I'm sure many of you can relate with that. The
long hours, back to back meetings, and high stress took
a heavy toll. He started experiencing anxiety attacks and felt
like a shell of his former self. To help untangle

(01:28):
his brain, he and his wife took a long surf
and yoga trip to Costa Rica. It was an incredible experience,
providing the space to slow down and focus him in
a way he had never done in a long time.
As soon as they returned, he was inspired to create

(01:50):
this type of experience for other high achieving professionals. He
knows what it's like to work in high pressure environments
and the impact that in tensional time away can have
on calming the nervous system. So they curate the type
of small batch white glove experiences that if he had

(02:12):
gone through when he was in consulting, would have prevented
him from all the burnout. Please welcome founder of Sand
and Salt Escapes, Max Schneider.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
Welcome to the show. Max.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
Thank you, Michael.

Speaker 4 (02:29):
It's a pleasure to be I'm excited for the conversation today.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
This is so cool.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
I want to share with you, and I want to
share with everybody listening here is As many of you know,
I have an intake form and I kind of give
the option to my guests to either fill it all
out or just share some links to different articles or
videos that my or podcast that previously that they've done
that might help me better learn more about them. And

(02:54):
so the first link I clicked on without knowing anything
about you, Max, was the YouTube link that you set me,
and so I went down this like rabbit hole of
watching these YouTubers going across the world and everything. And
so I was just like, oh, cool, I have this
like travel vlogger coming on the show today. So I
start I start preparing my mind on those kinds of questions,

(03:17):
and you know, reading your bio, it didn't help because
you said you and your wife and this vlogger was
with is with his wife and everything. So I'm just like, oh,
this is really neat all right, So how am I
going to learn about him.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
Through all these travel vlogs though?

Speaker 1 (03:30):
So it was only until I got to the articles
that I was like, all right, actually I get it now,
what's going on here?

Speaker 4 (03:36):
Oh that's amazing. So that must have been David and Skyler.
So shout out Davey and sky Media. They are incredible
travel bloggers up in Canada and they have documented everything
that we've done for sentence on the skates there are
go to Viagarism photographers, so all the content we were
produced comes from them. But that's I mean, what a
joy to get to get down our rabbit hole for

(03:56):
with the two of them on YouTube there.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
I love watching their videos are the best.

Speaker 4 (04:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, And I did end up subscribing because I was like,
this is pretty neat. I didn't get to the video
I saw that they did I think ten cool things
in Ireland, and I was like, this is my wife's
dream to go to Ireland and I've promised her to
do that. So I was like, all right, I gotta
tag that one. That's the one I'm gonna be watching
next so that I can figure this out with Devin.

Speaker 3 (04:22):
That's amazing.

Speaker 4 (04:23):
Yeah, they're phenomenal people and we actually just met very
randomly online. When I was first started the company, I
knew that we had to have very high quality content
and social proofs to be able to share. So I
needed to find somebody was crazy enough to just accept
a random invitation to come down to Costa Rica from
a stranger that they had never met. And it took

(04:44):
a few attempts at reaching out to some travel bloggers
and bloggers online, but ended up reaching out to David
and Skylaer and they responded and we met for the
first time in Costa Rica about almost two years ago
and actually coming back with us again in June for
our eleventh three.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
Treat to capture some more content. So yeah, that's what
I like to joke.

Speaker 4 (05:04):
The only people crazy enough to just accept the random
invite from a random person to come down to Costa
Rica and it all worked out really well.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
I love the random invites and the random requests. I
think that, you know, that's definitely something we're going to
be speaking more about in terms of you know, your
boot you bootstrapped at your company, and so many, so
many entrepreneurs business leaders are met with failures or setbacks
and it's really because they only tried once. And so
I love that you're talking about that it took more

(05:34):
than one attempt. So we're definitely going to dive into that.
I want to kind of unless you have something on
it that you want to say right now, go ahead, No,
that's all good.

Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, you just talked about it.

Speaker 4 (05:44):
Thank failing once or twice, it's like, yeah, it's the
entire process of being an entrepreneurs just tripping over yourself,
picking yourself back up and learning on the next step
and then tripping again.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, it's it's a I mean, and that's the greatest
part about it is that it's just a learning process.
I listened to Brennan Sharred and Growth Day and this
Morning's Daily Fire. He was just talking about that that
as entrepreneurs, as people that you know are always looking
to grow, is that we're just like the universe. We're
forever expanding. And if we have the mindset of the

(06:13):
universe and that the universe never stops expanding, we never
stop expanding and continuously grow.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
But there are.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Points in our life that we feel like there is
no growth, that we are stagnant, that we've plateaued, and
that there's almost no change in our lives and therefore
no future, which leads to a lot of anxiety, a
lot of stress, a lot of self doubting. And for
an high achiever like yourself, it sounds like you started

(06:42):
experiencing some of this stuff in the consulting world. Can
you share with us a little bit about that experience,
I mean, share with us. You know, the beginning stage
is because I'm sure it started off great. You rolled
up into management, you started working with Fortune one hundred companies.
You were really a high flyer, I'm sure, young guy,
so you were on a huge trajectory of success. So

(07:05):
share with us a little bit about the beginning stages
and then where it kind of hit that wall.

Speaker 4 (07:09):
Yeah, it was the beginning stages of consulting for me
were and it was everything that I had ever dreamed of,
because prior to starting consulting, i'd actually gone to law school.
I did that straight out of undergrad and a year
into law school, I realized that this is not the
way that I wanted to spend my career.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
I had done mock trial in.

Speaker 4 (07:31):
High school and then undergrad and kind of had an
idea of what.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
It would be like to practice law.

Speaker 4 (07:37):
But then when I got to law school and realized,
oh god, it's absolutely nothing like what.

Speaker 3 (07:41):
I thought it was going to be.

Speaker 4 (07:42):
I got it out for a year and then picked
up and kind of had what I like to refer
to as like my first panic moment, when I picked
up and went down to El Salvador for three months
just to clear my mind, get away and get a
chance to tune back into myself, and while I was there.

Speaker 3 (07:59):
I was doing reflection on just the type of work
that I like to do.

Speaker 4 (08:03):
And I knew that I love creative problem solving. I
knew that I love working with people. I knew that
I love and being in front of audiences speaking, and
those ideas, those concepts really led me into the field
of consulting. So the moment that I arrived there, I
was so excited because I was able to get into
doing exactly what I wanted to do. I was traveling

(08:24):
two hundred thousand miles a year, chasing companies like Microsoft
all around the world, getting a chance to work with
a lot of their country general managers, corporate vice presidents,
and getting some incredible exposure to a really young age,
and that those beginning years were an absolute blast. I
did two hundred thousand miles a year in the air
for five or six years, and finally I kind of

(08:47):
got to the point where I was wearing down. I
got shingles, which was my first experience with my body
starting to really signal to me that the stress and
the lifestyle wasn't.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
A sustainable one.

Speaker 4 (09:02):
So I got shingles in my late twenties, and that
was right around the time where I raised.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
My hand and said, hey, I know that I asked.

Speaker 4 (09:10):
To travel as much as possible, but I don't want
to do it like this any longer.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
I need to be a little bit more local.

Speaker 4 (09:16):
So I ended up getting put on a couple I
was in the base in Chicago at the time, and
got put on a couple of more local clients, actually
in the insurance space, which I know you have familiarity with,
and spent my last years in consulting more in the
Midwest in the financial services and insurance industries. But it
was definitely a big change taking the Amtrak from Chicago

(09:37):
to Milwaukee every week versus hopping on a plane and
flying to Singapore or London.

Speaker 3 (09:42):
But it was a very.

Speaker 4 (09:43):
Welcome change at that point in my life, and those
years of that heavy, heavy travel had had to wind
down at some point, but it was an absolute blasting.

Speaker 3 (09:51):
I had a chance to learn so much through that process.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
Man, I can't you know, I can't imagine the stress
of the time changes. When you're talking about into Singapore too,
I think about, you know, just the stress of sleep,
of not sleeping added on to the career and the
high pressure from the career.

Speaker 4 (10:12):
And the food that you eat in the process of
it too. I mean, I can't tell you how many
airplane meals I had, how many meals I had in lounges.

Speaker 3 (10:23):
Yeah, it was just absolutely brutal on the body.

Speaker 4 (10:25):
There'd be weeks where I would go from Chicago to Seattle,
touchback in Chicago for a day, unpack my suitcase, go
over to London, come back from London for a day,
fly out to Singapore, come back, and then you're just
jetting off. Was international at least once a month for years,

(10:45):
which this is I am not.

Speaker 3 (10:47):
Complaining about it at all.

Speaker 4 (10:48):
It was a phenomenal experience, but it's just not a
sustainable one because your point, the sleep schedule.

Speaker 3 (10:54):
My sleep schedule was so erratic.

Speaker 4 (10:57):
The food that I was eating was just so drenched
in sodium and preservatives, and then you're out getting drinks
in the evening time, and then when you are back
in at home, all you want to do is just
sleep and rest. But those moments were so few and
far between, so you kind of I turned into pretty
much a walking zombie, just reacting and like only a

(11:17):
ping pong ball is bouncing back and forth, back and forth,
back and forth, with no real intentionality behind what I
was doing.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
I want to go back for a second year and
to when you were talking about your first signal, which
was it sounds like it was it was prior to
you asking to kind of stay local.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
It was right before you started jet.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
Setting, the first signal that you had, and you took
time to reflect. Two questions there. The first question I
have in terms of this is we're we'll be speaking
a lot about burnout. This is like big, this is
the huge turning point in your not this moment, but
burnout is one of the huge turning points in what
started the business for you that you're in today. So

(11:59):
I want to make sure that we identify some of
the signs to burnout, and they don't all happen at once. Obviously,
it's not just one big fire that you say, all right,
that's it, I'm out of the building. It's these little signals.
And so I want to go back to that initial
signal of what it was, and then I want to
kind of just dive into a little bit deeper into

(12:20):
the reflection that you did, because I really love that
reflection that you did, and that's another great point there,
and that we reflect and when we reflect on things
and come up with our values or what it is
that we're searching for. It doesn't always mean that that's
going to be what our passion is for life long.
It's going to change, but it's right for the moment.

(12:41):
So I'm very curious on those two moments of like,
what was the signal to that first burnout and how
did you reflect and discover those initial values.

Speaker 4 (12:52):
The signal for the first burnout happened when we were
in Denver, and this is just like the lifestyle or
pushing at that time, where it was just push in
every aspect of your life.

Speaker 3 (13:03):
Where I actually flew straight from.

Speaker 4 (13:05):
A client engagement in China to Denver to see a
concert at Red Rocks.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
And while we were there.

Speaker 4 (13:11):
If any listeners are familiar with the manitou in client's
in Colorado Springs, so just outside of Denver, and it's
right by the Olympic Training Committee and it's on the
side of Pike's Peak. It's about eight tens a mile
old rail track that goes up the side of Pike's
Peak and rails are different heights, they're in different positions.

(13:32):
Some of them are like six feet apart or six
inches apart. Others are about three feet apart. Sometimes you're
like going at very steep angles to get to the
top of this thing. And it's at about a mile
of elevation and they use it for training for the
Olympics and when so when we were out there, we thought, oh,
it'd be really fun to go run this and see
kind of what time we could run.

Speaker 3 (13:50):
So we were had been training ahead of time for it.

Speaker 4 (13:52):
We lived in a fifty two story building in Chicago,
so I was just running up and down the stairs.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
While we were there.

Speaker 4 (13:59):
So it was like literally fly from China to Denver
for a concert where we were the partying having fun
with that, and then we flew out or drove out
to Colado Springs and I remember being at the very
bottom of the manitude incline r before we were going
to start running it and feeling like right in my
my lymph nodes right and around my hip area, we're
feeling really weird.

Speaker 3 (14:20):
And I thought, oh, that's interesting, Why am I so
tender right there?

Speaker 4 (14:24):
And where you just continued the weekend, and as the
weekend continue, I kept feeling more tenderness, more.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
Tenderness, more tenderness. And then my.

Speaker 4 (14:31):
Wife, who's a physical therapist and she has her own practice,
and she's wired the same way that I am. Same
with it and probably you are, and a lot of
your listeners are where you just continue to push through things.
She'd had shingles six months prior, and I gave her
so much flak about it. I was like, oh my gosh,
this is like, you're not supposed to get shingles in
your twenties, Like this happens when you're much older. So
when the shingles then started surfacing, we were able to

(14:54):
identify it pretty easily because we realized, like, oh gosh,
that's exactly what you had six months ago. So it
was a a little bit of a shot across the
bow where we both realized, like, okay, we're both in
our twenties. To this point, we both had shingles within
six months of each other. And when you kind of
step back and look at like the way that we
were pushing across every aspect of our life, there was
just no rest whatsoever, and we kind of realized, Okay,

(15:20):
we probably need to start changing some things up.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
That was the first time.

Speaker 4 (15:24):
We had that thought we didn't do a good job
of changing anything at that point.

Speaker 3 (15:28):
It took a few more shots across the bow.

Speaker 5 (15:32):
Clearly that we've had I said melanoma a couple of times,
both limes we've been fortunate to catch it and get
it out, But those both came after very acute periods
of prolonged stress that have also helped us change.

Speaker 3 (15:48):
And you just have these moments along the way.

Speaker 4 (15:49):
Where you realize how when your body's starting to speak
out against the way that you're treating it, that you've
got to change some things. And I'm really fortunate that
we've not had anything like too serious happened along those
along that front. We've learned a lot from it, and
we've made a lot of changes. But that first time, Yeah,
when we were at the bottom of manitude incline, I

(16:10):
remember feeling like right around my limp my head and going,
oh this is this doesn't feel right.

Speaker 3 (16:15):
Something's going on here.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah, I'm glad that you said that, because burnout can
happen in so many different ways, and and and like
you just described from you, you're doing it in every
area of your life, and you're you're saying, you know
you're traveling for work, and then you're trying to make
it fun by going to a concert and by doing
something that's also fun and a great experience with friends

(16:38):
and family. Obviously, but obviously your body is saying no
to it. And I think it's important that we do
pay attention to our bodies signals. You're one hundred percent right.
I've had I've done some exercises where you know, I've
got I got a shot in the knee, and this
is like recent. This is why I'm saying it, got
a shot in the knee, and I'm just like, got
to push through it, got to get to my hundred squats,

(16:59):
you know. Whatever it is that I'm doing, I do
more like hit versus wit heavy, and so of course
you push through it, and then guess what happens, Like
a day or two.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
Later, you're like, I can't walk? Why can't I walk?

Speaker 1 (17:10):
So I think every time, I'm so happy that you
touched on that. The signals of our body are huge.
We talk about the mental signals, but we also have
the physical signals and.

Speaker 2 (17:23):
The rest component.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
You just mentioned it never resting, and I know we're
going to get into rest because I mean, your your
business is based around rest and recovery, So the rest
component never resting. Let's go into a little bit of
the reflections that you did.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
This was early stages for you, before you really.

Speaker 1 (17:41):
Started or I'm making an assumption here based off of
what I've learned about your story here, But this is
early early stages here, before you really got into yoga
and got into other types of breathing exercises. So what
was the initial phase for you in terms of the reflection.
I ask this in this sense because many people listening

(18:01):
right now might not be as far along as you
or I are in terms of mindfulness or meditation or
anything of that nature. So if we could kind of
put our beginner's mind back on of like what was
it first like when you were reflecting, I.

Speaker 4 (18:17):
Think you over time build what I would describe almost
as like a heightened sensitivity to the signals that your
body is sending. What I mean by that is early on,
the only the signals that you can most easily read
are the big ones. It's tougher to find the more
nuanced signals, so things like shingles.

Speaker 3 (18:38):
Very easy to identify.

Speaker 4 (18:39):
As my career progressed, anxiety attacks at the airport on
calls very easy to identify, and as you start tuning in,
as you start paying attention, you can start to notice
the more nuanced things. And meditation for me and just
building out that my own mindfulness practice through a number

(19:01):
of different mediums has been so helpful when I can
start to fuel my anxiety coming on in different spots
in my body. So for me, anxiety really manifest center
right around my chest, right on my solar plexus.

Speaker 3 (19:16):
I know that if i'd like anxious.

Speaker 4 (19:18):
That's a really big it's also a very big emotional
processing center for your body as a human being, and
so I hold a lot of anxiety in there.

Speaker 3 (19:27):
So as I've grown my journey and getting to be
able to.

Speaker 4 (19:31):
Observe this and know this, one of the things that
really helps for me is actually rolling.

Speaker 3 (19:35):
The fascia around my solar plexus.

Speaker 4 (19:38):
When I'm feeling very anxious or if I had a
very anxious day to day before, I know that that
spot on my chest is going to be really tender,
and so rolling with fashia there is something actually helps
physically release a lot of that anxiety and getting chance to.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
Address it for more of a somatic perspective. So that's
been for.

Speaker 4 (19:58):
Me kind of my journey through yoga, through mindfulness, through
breath work, and really understanding how do I slow down
and listen to my body and just observe and see
what my body's telling me. Because I mean, ultimately, we
experience life through our bodies. It's the vehicle through which
we do it. Our bodies are only able to be

(20:20):
in the present moment. Our bodies can't be in the past.
Our bodies can't be in the future. Bodies can't be
thinking about a project. But that's where our mind generally is.
Our mind's generally reflecting on things that happen in the past,
like making you feel like regret or guilt, or you're
getting really worried about what's going to happen in the
future and you're feeling anxious, you're thinking about projects, or
you're just like scenario planning is something that I'm so
guilty of constantly.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
Your mind's just always like playing things out.

Speaker 4 (20:42):
But when we can quiet that and we can slow
down and learn how to connect with the body, because
the body's always here and the bodies what we're experiencing
life through. There's so much that you can observe and
so much as you can learn about your experience and
improve the way that you experience life, take that time to.

Speaker 3 (21:01):
Actually slow down.

Speaker 4 (21:02):
So that's been a massive kind of unlocking the journey
for me of starting with only being able to receive
like these very heavy signals of it. You've got shingles,
you're in the middle of an anxiety attack. Those are
the bigger ones. But over time, when you start paying attention,
you continue practicing my phone, as you continue just learning
how to slow down and listen to your body, you

(21:24):
can start to observe the smaller signals and the more
nuanced things and be able to.

Speaker 3 (21:30):
Just become a little bit more unified with your body
and your mind.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah, and you can cut them off before they manifest
into something greater. I mean, I remember, I remember an
anxiety when you said the airport, I remember an anxiety.

Speaker 2 (21:43):
Attack I had years ago.

Speaker 1 (21:46):
I was just getting on a plane to go to Miami.
I was with my family, thankfully, and at the time
it was just my sister and my brother. But my
sister was well experienced and being able to help with that.
But at the time it manifested into what many feel,
which is the walls are closing in everything. Is you know,
collapsing and and you're you're sick from it. You know,

(22:09):
I got on the plane, of course, and went to Florida,
went to Miami that weekend. I forget how long the
trip was for, but the entire trip I was sick
because of this. And you know, when you learn mindfulness,
which is what we'll be talking a lot more about too,
because I know that you have some really great mindfulness
stories for our entrepreneurs that we'll be getting into a

(22:29):
little bit later in the show. But when you learn it,
I've dealt with things as an entrepreneur today and I'm
sure you have as well that are.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
Far more.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
Anxiety causing than that moment that I had in Florida.
And yet I don't get to that point. And it's
exactly to what you just said, is that now I'm like, okay,
I get it here too, where my chest is just
like oof, that's that's hurting, and it's realizing to breathe,
practice a little gratitude, realize what is you.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
Know, the bigger picture in all of this.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
And you know, I'm curious on your thoughts on all
of that, but it it's it's a game changer when
you could start identifying those small nuances.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
Like you said, absolutely, it's it's a huge game changer.

Speaker 4 (23:18):
And the way that I've really come to understand it
and why it helps me make it very pragmatic for
myself is it's training your mind the way that you
talked about doing like exercising, going and doing one hundred squats.

Speaker 3 (23:31):
That's going to be really helpful for.

Speaker 4 (23:33):
You when you've got to go like in the bottom
cabinet in the kitchen and be able to reach underneath
to grab the blender that's stuck back behind the other bowls.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
But like that mobility, that strength, that's super helpful for
you for it.

Speaker 4 (23:46):
And we talk about mindfulness, we talk about meditation. We're
not meditating to be great meditators. I mean maybe some
people are, but that's not I think the way that
I approach it, I approach it because I want to
meditate to train my mind so that I can experience
life with a little bit more peace, with a little
bit more fluidity to it, and a little bit more

(24:07):
connection to life itself.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
And that's the purpose of it. It's to train your mind.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great way to express
all of that. So, yeah, you took that moment in
the beginning phases. I love how you touched on how
the signals led you to that, to be able to
reflect and be mindful in that moment and kind of
write out your values. And I just want to point
out to everybody what some of those values at the
time are, because I think there's going to be a
big contrast, but also we'll see some similarities in what

(24:35):
they are today. And it was to help others, it
was to travel, It was exposure to new things and
discover new things. So I think it's so important to
talk about this because we you know, I speak about
this and whenever I train on public speaking and work
with entrepreneurs, it's it's vital that as entrepreneurs, it's vital

(24:55):
that as business leaders and executives that we know why
we're doing something and that we're passionate about it. And
for you, in that moment, you discovered what it was,
you started jet setting and it was working out well,
and then you got to your second breakdown, which is
when you went more localized. And so I'm going to
bring us back to where we kind of left off

(25:16):
before we went back back in time. So now you
were back home, you're local, you're riding the train. Maybe
things have kind of cooled down for you. Tell us
more about what started happening as you transitioned from doing
two hundred thousand miles in the air to now going
a little bit more local, and how things started transpiring

(25:37):
from there.

Speaker 3 (25:39):
At first, it was a lot of relief.

Speaker 4 (25:41):
It was just really nice to be in the same
time zone, and I just feel a little bit more settled.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
As that continued to play out, I was going.

Speaker 4 (25:51):
From Chicago to Milwaukee on the Amtrak every week, and.

Speaker 3 (25:55):
That was a lot of cold weather.

Speaker 4 (25:58):
It was one of the polar vortex years, and with
all the travel I had been doing up to that point,
I had missed every.

Speaker 3 (26:07):
Snowstorm in Chicago for like six years. At that point.

Speaker 4 (26:11):
Every time I would be gone, I would talk to
my wife and she like, you cannot believe it.

Speaker 3 (26:16):
It's snowing again and you're not here.

Speaker 4 (26:19):
It was kind of funny at first, and then got
to the point where it was just like I was
just never home and she would just be stuck there
in like negative twenty.

Speaker 3 (26:27):
Degrees in the winter time, and I would be.

Speaker 4 (26:30):
Like across in Europe or somewhere like that. So it
was a little bit of a running bit for us
that I was just never there for snow. And then
I got assigned to a client in Milwaukee, so during
a polar Vartex year. So that was a very big
eye opening moment for me where I looked at her
and I said, Oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry, so
what you've been dealing with this entire time?

Speaker 3 (26:48):
Yeah, I'm ready to go.

Speaker 4 (26:49):
So we ended up picking up and we moved out
to Los Angeles in twenty twenty, right in the beginning
stages of COVID, which is a perfect time to move
across the country. But it was amazing for us because
we had just gotten to this point, I mean, as I.

Speaker 3 (27:05):
Think you kind of do in your twenties early.

Speaker 4 (27:08):
Thirties, where some of that city life can start to
weigh you down a little bit. In Chicago, it's a
phenomenal city, but it's just a lot of eating and drinking,
and there's not a lot of outdoor access. And we
wanted that outdoor access, so we moved that here. We
started surfing, we hike every weekend. At least we spent
a time of time up in Joshua Treat as well now.
But the access to the outdoors here has just been

(27:30):
absolutely phenomenal, and I think it really fed our soul
a lot in that transition of coming out here. And
it was you talked about before of like you some
things are right at certain stages of life, and then
they changed, like what you care about changes, and you
have to be able to pay attention.

Speaker 3 (27:46):
And for us, it was just that Chicago had run
its course and it was beautiful.

Speaker 4 (27:50):
We were thankful for it, but it was time to
get out to la and some of that outdoors activity
I think was really nurturing for us and helped us
get back to ourselves a little bit. But then when
we've been out here for a couple of years, that
anxiety started really coming back and a lot of those
symptoms started resurfacing. And it's kind of the old saying

(28:12):
of wherever you go, there you are. And unless you
start really working on some things internally, you can change
your external environment as much as you want to, but
it's only a distraction that change has to come from within.
And sure enough it caught back up to me after
being out here for a few years.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Is that, Wayne Dier, I don't know. Yeah, it feels
like I had a dire quote.

Speaker 3 (28:36):
I only know because my mother says it to me.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
Sounds like a Wayne dire quote, just just for some
understanding of certain things.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
So what was that? What was that year?

Speaker 1 (28:46):
I'm also I have some personal curiosity here. What was
that year of the Polar War tax in Chicago? Do
you remember?

Speaker 2 (28:51):
Was it like twenty sixteen ish seventeen?

Speaker 3 (28:54):
It was around there.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, I was in Chicago around that time. I was
in Chicago, so I was working for group at the time,
and I was in training and they they put me up,
I think, for two weeks for training at their headquarters
in Chicago. You might be familiar with where that is
and whatever, but Chicago's pretty pretty small and compared to

(29:15):
New York City, let's say, and so where they put
me up was kind of like across town, and they
gave me a stipend for travel every day to take
the cab or uber to the location. But what I
decided to do with that stipeen, I don't recommend us
everyone because I actually did not get reimbursed for this.
But what I decided to do with that stipeen was

(29:35):
I decided to rent their They're essentially their city bikes
for New Yorkers know that one, but you know they're
they're like rental bikes around town. And I decided to
rent their bikes instead of taking an uber and ride
my that bike to and from the office so that
I could save that stipe in that hundred bucks a
day for steak. It's for steaks and go into steakhouses
every night because I was like, I was like, I'm

(29:59):
in Chicago. I want to try and experience all the
best steaks there there are.

Speaker 4 (30:04):
So yeah, I'm surprised you had hands from the frost
bite to be even be able to eat the steaks.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
So I would have to.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
So that's why I asked the polar rotex question because
I tried to explain to people, I'm like, it was
the coldest year in Chicago. I would have I had
my ski gloves and all my different things that I
have with me just to pack for winter because I
knew it was going to be cold. But I would
have to stop at the hotel. So the hotels there
are prepared for this. They all have those overhangs with
like heat just blasting down, and so I actually had

(30:35):
to make probably like two or three stops along the
way in order to warm my hands. To your point,
my hands back up to be able to continue, because
everything else was fine. It was my fingers that would
go numb. And already I also have I'm drawing a
blank of the disease I have that turns my hands white.
But I've drawing a blank whatever that's called. But anyway,

(30:57):
so anyway, so that was my experience in Chicago.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
It was awesome.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
It was freezing that year, and the stakes were well
worth it.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
I hit up.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
Several like small like like I didn't go to Michael Jordan's.
I didn't go to the Chicago Bears Code. I didn't
go to their steakhouses. As much as I'm a big
Jordan fan, I looked for where is that that? Like
one place? It's been here for one hundred years, you know,
and I had the best steak. The next question I
have for you in terms of this just travel that
you had was is so at the time when you

(31:27):
moved you were working for the organization. Yes, okay, and
now if you can help us just kind of start
seeing make some uh draw some lines here. When was
the trip to Costa Rica? Was it in in the
move to La or was this after.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
It was after he moved to La.

Speaker 4 (31:46):
So yeah, so having been in La for a few years,
that anxiety continued creeping back in.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
And it was during COVID too.

Speaker 4 (31:55):
So to go from traveling, I mean, I still, even
though I wasn't traveling on airplanes, I often I was
traveling every week, and then in COVID, you get dropped
in this world. It shook so many of us up
and so many of our daily rhythms. So I know
this isn't unique whatsoever, But to go from traveling like
that to being totally stationary was a really big change

(32:16):
of pace.

Speaker 3 (32:17):
And I was.

Speaker 4 (32:17):
I mean I had zoom calls for eight to ten
hours a day, and then after that you are expected
to go work.

Speaker 3 (32:22):
And your brain is just totally fried.

Speaker 4 (32:26):
It's so difficult to actually concentrate the fatigue that you have,
and it makes no sense from just a very like
outsider perspective. When you're going through that, You're like, why
am I so tired? I've done nothing. I'd sit all day.
But when you literally just end, When meeting go to
the next end, When meeting go to the next end.
One meeting, go to the next end, one meeting, go
to the next there are some changes that start happening,

(32:47):
and your brain starts to changes start happening in your body,
and that stress builds up and it's just not a
natural way to exist as like a human being. So yeah,
there's a lot of that started really catching up to me.
I was all so still repointing out of our Chicago office,
so I was getting started on the day much earlier,
which meant that the days just and there was nothing
else to do really during COVID, so you just continued

(33:09):
to work all day every day.

Speaker 3 (33:10):
And now so the anxiety attacks started.

Speaker 4 (33:12):
Coming back, and realized, Yeah, this is probably not something
that's going to be sustainable for me, and I've got
to figure some things out.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
And that's really what precipitated the second.

Speaker 4 (33:24):
Big panic moment where I picked up and went down
to Latin America for another extended period of time to
just get away because I didn't I never felt like
put the words to burn out the way that I had,
And I think there's something powerful about actually being able
to call it a thing and describe it and actually
look that way. You can almost like a container to
hold it in. Okay, this is burnout, Okay, now, what
do we do with that? But prior to that point,

(33:46):
I think I'd probably experienced a lot of the symptoms
and had a lot of those ebbs and flows, but
I didn't have the real words to put on it.
And now, I mean, these days everybody's starting burnout around
because I think a lot of us really are. But
for me, that was the first time I was able
to really grasp it and so, okay, I had to
do something with this, but I just didn't know what
to do. All I knew was that I needed rest

(34:07):
so desperately badly. And so that's why we picked up
at that point and went down to Costaika. As toldvention director,
we're mount for a little bit. I got to take
some time and picked up and we went down there
for a month.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
This time, wow, you went for a month so in
that timeframe. So one of the questions I have that
I'm sure everybody also has, is having how do you
work up to asking for that time off, Because anybody
working in a corporate setting knows how stressful it is

(34:42):
to ask for time off, especially when you're working so
hard and you have a team, and you have management,
and you have these deadlines and even just taking vacation,
Like I mean, I worked at an organization and they
gave unlimited vacation, and when I spoke with HR about it,
I was just like, how does this work? And They're like,
nobody ever takes it? And I was like, what do

(35:03):
you mean? And They're like, nobody ever takes it? And
I'm like, how does that work? And they're like, well,
because in order to take it, you have to meet
your goals. And it's like, well, you know, you could
figure out where that's all going, right, So it's like
it's like almost a joke thinking about vacation when you're
working in such high stress situations. So I'm curious on
how you were able to work up to get to ask,

(35:25):
And then I would love if you could share more
about the things that you did while you were there
for that month.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
To get the courage to ask. I flipped the idea
of risk on its head.

Speaker 4 (35:40):
Generally, think about risk, we think about what happens if
I do this, and what happens if I put in
for this vacation, what happens if I quit my job,
what happens if I take this trip.

Speaker 3 (35:53):
We think about the risk of doing.

Speaker 4 (35:55):
Something the way that I flip that on its head
was what's the risk of not doing this?

Speaker 3 (36:00):
Because I was at a.

Speaker 4 (36:01):
Really I was in a really tough spot, and I
think a lot of people get to that point with burnout.
But we if we don't take care of ourselves, they truly,
nobody else is going to The importance that we place
on work, on our job and what we give to
our company is so misaligned with the importance that our work,

(36:25):
our job, or our company places on us.

Speaker 3 (36:29):
We identify with it.

Speaker 4 (36:30):
We go above and beyond, we do, we take on
more responsibilities without any pay increases. We just continue to
pour ourselves into our work for the betterment of the shareholders,
for the betterment of whoever, somebody else and certainly not us.

Speaker 3 (36:46):
And in a moment's notice, that company, which is not a.

Speaker 4 (36:49):
Living, breathing, feeling thing, it's just a corporate entity, will
always do what's best for whoever the shareholders are, and
they can turn around and let you go in a heartbeat.
And that disproportionate importance in that relationship has always struck
me throughout my career, and I wanted to finally take

(37:12):
a little bit of control for myself and do something
for me and put myself first because I knew what.

Speaker 3 (37:17):
The risk was of continuing on.

Speaker 4 (37:20):
And when I asked that question of myself of what
happens if you don't do this, it flipped it on
its head and it made me really pause because I
could see what that path was. I could see how
unhappy I would be. I could see these demons that
I would continually have to fight. But by flipping the
question on its head, I realized that, yeah, it's going

(37:41):
to be scary as hell to take a month off
to get the courage to ask. Absolutely, it's gonna be scary,
but it's a lot less risk than if I just
continue on in the same way.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
What a great way, too, in terms of speaking about
the entrepreneurial journey, What a great way to to start
stepping into taking risk for your and realizing that sometimes,
like as Tony Robbins says, sometimes you got to burn
the boats and realizing you know, you just might have to.
Fortunately for you in that moment because of timing in

(38:11):
terms of everything, you didn't have to do that quite yet.
But it's so great because every time that we can
experience something at a very small scale wherever we are
in our lives, or whatever we're trying.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
To do at a very small scale.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
It sets us up for when we decide to do
it at a larger scale because we could tap into
the strength. And as you mentioned before with the hundred
with the hundred squats, it's the same concept is is
you're you're building that mental toughness in order to be
able to do it in a different circumstances and situation.
And by the way, I don't know how you know
my kitchen, but quite literally what you described is it's

(38:48):
not under the kitchen sink. It's under one of the
kitchen cabinets, and it is the mixing bowl is behind
a bunch of it.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
Was like I was like, man, does he know my kitchen?
Isn't crazy.

Speaker 4 (38:58):
Up?

Speaker 1 (38:59):
So tell us now, So you went on this trip
and this was a life changing experience for you and
your wife and to the point where you started this
company that you know, like you know, like I said
when we watched the travel vlogs, I mean, this is
some awesome experiences that you're offering to organizations and to
individuals and to people that have been in your shoes.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
So share with us that first.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
Initial moment of being there in Costa Rica with your
wife for that first month.

Speaker 4 (39:28):
Yeah, I oftentimes feel like a walking cliche where it's like, well,
this guy just like went to Costa Rica for a
month and started a company. Yes, like that is certainly
a way that this can be framed and does feel
a bit like a walking cliche. But Latin America for me,
has been an area that I have always been drawn towards.
I've been down there I think over like forty times

(39:51):
at this point, for all over the region. It's just
a place that I've found myself drawn towards where I
can just slow down a little bit and get a
chance to connect with myself. So that was a similar one.
I picked up and went down to El Salvador after
dropping out of law school.

Speaker 3 (40:11):
I was just kind of like, well, what do I do.
I'm gonna pick up I'm.

Speaker 4 (40:13):
Gonna go down to Latin America somewhere and we're just
gonna chill out and figure out what's going on.

Speaker 3 (40:18):
And I mean as soon as it takes a little bit.

Speaker 4 (40:23):
Like where we were, we were pretty deep in the
jungle in a pretty remote area, so it took some
time to get there. And I love going to places
that are a little bit harder to get to because
as you're making those journeys, you can feel the separation
that occurs between the world that you existed in your
day to day and where you're heading, and it gives

(40:43):
you that space over that journey to really realize that
we're going somewhere different. This is not going to be
like being back home in La And we were going
deeper and deeper into the jungle, and you.

Speaker 3 (40:55):
Just kind of start to feel that sense of.

Speaker 4 (40:57):
Peace, that release, and that relief with it, And so
as soon as we got there, it was just it
felt like a relief.

Speaker 3 (41:06):
I was in a pretty tough mental place at that time.

Speaker 4 (41:09):
The best way I could describe it is it just
felt like my brain was so tangled and I didn't
I didn't even know how to begin untangling it.

Speaker 3 (41:17):
But while we were there, we did one on one
surf coaching. Every day we were out in the water,
no matter what I think.

Speaker 4 (41:26):
There's only one day that they called it where it
was a little bit too big out back.

Speaker 3 (41:29):
But it didn't matter how how big the waves were.

Speaker 4 (41:32):
If you thought, oh, I don't know that I can
get out, we were still paddling out and we still
got out there, we did it. So that was just
that movement and that being ability to push my edge
and to connect with my body and to connect with
nature was so so impactful for me.

Speaker 3 (41:45):
We also practiced.

Speaker 4 (41:46):
Yoga every day, so just that mindfulness and getting a
chance to slow down and really appreciate my own body
and create that sort of connection between my mind and
my body. And then we also we're in the middle
of nowhere, so there's nothing to do at the time,
but there where the place we went had ten open
spots and it was just kind of rotating as far

(42:08):
as who would come through. So while we sat there
for a month, we had people coming in from all
over the world who were just like some people were
leaving on Wednesday, some people on Sundays, and there's always
new people coming in.

Speaker 3 (42:17):
And what was so impactful.

Speaker 4 (42:19):
About that was we would just sit around after breakfast,
we'd sit around after dinner. You just talked because there's
no TVs, there's nothing like nowhere to go, so we
would just sit and talk, and I mean, it was
just a really great form of like talk therapy for
me for a while there, where you start you share
your story on day one and then the way you're
telling it a week later is a little bit different,
and then were you're telling it a week later, it's
a little bit different.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
And you hear these things that you're.

Speaker 4 (42:40):
Saying out loud, you're like, wait a second, I didn't
even know that was a thought in my head. And
you get a chance to really step back and like
almost observe your own behavior in those circumstances and watch
it unfold over the course of that month. So all
of that conversation for me was legitimately just like going
to therapy almost twice a day, and then we removed
moving our body with the surf, which is also very

(43:02):
mindful activity, and then getting to practice yoga every day.

Speaker 3 (43:05):
So with all three of.

Speaker 4 (43:07):
Those things together it helped me start untangle my brain
a little bit. It was just the beginning of the process,
because in the process it's still going on today through therapy,
through mindfulness, and I think it's you're always kind of
tangling it, untangling it, tangling, untangling it. But that was
a really big moment for me of learning how to

(43:27):
start untangling it.

Speaker 3 (43:29):
I started feeling joy again in ways I hadn't in
so long.

Speaker 4 (43:32):
Just this. I can remember a very distinct moment walking
on the beach and thinking like and getting chills even
saying this.

Speaker 3 (43:39):
But how long have I been this numb? It just
felt like I wasn't experiencing life.

Speaker 4 (43:46):
I was just reacting from thing to thing, going on
the plane or the train or wherever. Because I was
told of building this deck, building this spreadsheet on the
zoom call, because.

Speaker 3 (43:55):
What you're supposed to do, the idea of success.

Speaker 4 (43:58):
In everything that I'd been chasing in all everything from
the career perspective, you're always I just kind of started
realizing I've just always been told kind of by society,
by culture, what we're supposed to be, and I certainly
had agency in that. It made some choices along the
way and continue to follow it. But what I really
started to understand and what sort of happened that trip

(44:20):
was I started feeling like a separation between that identity
and everything I'd always believed to be true about myself
and about what I should be doing in the world.

Speaker 3 (44:32):
I started feeling myself.

Speaker 4 (44:34):
Remove from all of those preconceived notions, which was a
little bit of a scary thing, because when you start
to step away from that, you open up that box.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
It's a box that you can't really close.

Speaker 4 (44:48):
And it was the beginning stages for me of that
exploration of realizing that everything that I'm told doesn't have
to be true, I don't and everything that our society
says is doesn't have to be true.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
I get to choose what I think success is.

Speaker 4 (45:06):
And that was such a powerful realization for me while
I was down there.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
Yeah, you mentioned the surfing, the yoga, and the talking,
which is kind of like therapy, and I've experienced therapy myself,
and I have a coach which I sometimes I don't
confuse it with therapy, but sometimes it's almost like she
is my therapist, right.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
But the reason why I bring that up.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
Is that when what you mentioned in all of that,
by having the conversations, by having this like verbal journal,
which is what it kind of is, of sharing your experiences,
what your thoughts are, what you what you once used
to do, and what you're you want to do, and
your vision, and you're sharing this with strangers or with
people that you've created new relationshipsships with in the in

(45:53):
the lobby there, you're being mindful in the moment of
hearing these stories over and over again, because that's what happens,
is that you start with heating things. Maybe the first
time you didn't hear it, maybe the second time you
hear it, but the third time you're just like, WHOA,
I must have said it to like four different people.
Is what is that? And that reflection is essentially what
therapy is. I mean, a therapist or a coach kind
of reflectings back to us in order for us to

(46:14):
kind of what is that, Why did I say that?
Oh okay? And we kind of get those guardrails from them.
But that's essentially what you went through. So one hundred percent.
Another thing to note for everybody is what I love,
what you talk about is going deep into the jungle
and the surfing and being really surrounded by this this
whole new environment. And you know, we talk about connection

(46:36):
with nature. We say, you know, go connect with nature,
go for a hike, go for a walk. You were
like you were, you were completely saturated in nature, between
the jungle and being in the ocean. You were totally
experiencing nature. And it's no wonder that in that moment,
like you said, where you know it was out of
the box. Is that when you have that connection with nature,

(46:58):
we realize how how small we really are and how
like what are we like? I mean again the whole
cliche things like you look at the grains of sand
on the beach as you're walking, and it's like that
came from a giant rock and it didn't happen overnight.
It didn't happen in one hundred years, a thousand years,
a million years.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
It took a long time.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
And so when we look at our existence in this universe,
it's like we're only here for like just like a
spit of time, and what are we doing with that time?
And so I this analogy came to mind as you
were talking about it, and I've used it before, and
I love this one, which is we can't read the
label from inside the jar, and when you're reconnecting in

(47:40):
that way like you did with your wife at that time,
it's almost like so sometimes a coach or a therapist
they can help us, you know, read the label, because
we're in the jar and they're helping us read the
label from outside. But you literally climbed out of the
jar and we're like, you know, there, I'm reading a
label and actually I don't like this jar, so I'm
out of here, dude, and I love that. I love that,
I really do. And so now now you experience. You

(48:04):
had this wonderful experience, this reconnection with nature. You and
your wife. I'm sure you built some really great relationships.
You were able to talk through a lot of the things,
and I'm sure you started creating this vision. So walk
us through the next phases here, because I mean, this
is really the build up to the company that you started.

Speaker 3 (48:24):
It is when.

Speaker 4 (48:26):
We left there, I knew that I wasn't going to
go back to work.

Speaker 3 (48:31):
So the first first, this.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
Is why they don't give us a month off people.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
This is exactly why I.

Speaker 4 (48:40):
We have we have a board of advisors, and I
had a call on Monday with our board and somebody
had just taken a sabbatical and there was a joke
being thrown around like, yeah, last person who took a
sabbatical quit their job and started a company.

Speaker 3 (48:52):
So yeah, that was that's definitely definitely a bit of
a risk there.

Speaker 4 (48:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:56):
But the first so the first time we were in
Costa Rica, I dreamt that I quit my job. Is
second night we're there, I dreamt the third night we're there,
I dreamt that a quid so I looked at Kelly.

Speaker 4 (49:04):
That third morning, my wife Kelly, and I said, I
have no idea what I'm going to do, but I
can't go back to this.

Speaker 3 (49:12):
So when we returned, it was red February.

Speaker 4 (49:18):
Bonuses got paid out in March, so I wasn't going
to be like a complete idiot and jump ship right
before bonuses got paid out, So I waited till right
afterwards putting my notice. But in that timeframe, I knew
that I was going to come back to Latin America
for work in some my shape or form.

Speaker 3 (49:36):
I knew that I wanted to.

Speaker 4 (49:39):
Help people who were going through those ebbs and flows
that happened throughout the course of our career, throughout the
course of our lives.

Speaker 3 (49:44):
Because I know that my experience isn't unique of feeling
burnt out. We all go through that.

Speaker 4 (49:50):
But I felt like I was in a really unique
position to be able to create.

Speaker 3 (49:54):
Something that helps people who are going through that. There's
a lot of the.

Speaker 4 (49:57):
Work that I had done in the con world was
in leading off sites and facilitating different workshops.

Speaker 3 (50:05):
That type of work comes very natural to me, so
I knew that there was a crossover between the two
of those, I just didn't know what it looked like.

Speaker 4 (50:12):
So as we got back from Costa Rica, I did
a lot of journaling, I did a lot of synthesizing, just.

Speaker 3 (50:17):
Talked to a lot of people about what was going on,
kind of.

Speaker 4 (50:20):
What I was thinking, and this idea started to emerge
where we could take groups of people down to Costa
Rica or somewhere like that and give them the space
to slow down and focus on themselves. We knew we
were I know the professional world, I know what that

(50:42):
those demands are like, and I know I have.

Speaker 3 (50:45):
The ability to speak to that.

Speaker 4 (50:46):
But I also understand the world of wellness pretty well
and understand mindfulness, and I have done practice and have
certifications and trainings in that area too, So I knew
that there was a really healthy blend between the two
that I could pull together through conversations. I just started
talking to friends who I thought were in the target
demographic and said, hey, if you were to go on

(51:06):
a trip like this, what will be important to you.
Just started workshopping and started getting some ideas together, and
then I put together a little bit of an outline,
and I did interviews with probably like twenty five or
thirty people who I thought were in the target demographic,
who are in my network. We started putting this together,
we started shaping it and got to the point where
we ran our first retreat in July of twenty twenty

(51:31):
two down in Nosarat, Costa Rica, which is different from
where we had stayed when we were down there, but
Nosara is it's on of the Nicoya Peninsula in Costa Rica,
which is one of five Blue zones in the world.
There are places where people live longer and healthier than
anywhere else, and Nosara is pretty much the wellness epicenter
of the Nicoya Peninsula. So the types of people that

(51:52):
are there, the infrastructure that's there to support holistic well being.
I mean, you can find absolute world class instructors and
facilitators in a sar. We've been really fortunate to build
some awesome relationships with some people down there who we
work with locally to create these experiences, and that all
began in July of twenty twenty two when we were

(52:15):
at our first reet treat.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
Yeah, those blue zones are pretty cool. I recently learned
about those where the people live well passed being one
hundred years old and when in the one that I
learned about it was a Netflix documentary with zac Efron
and they were visited a blue zone, and so I
was able to visually see it, not experience it the
way that you just described, but you start seeing how

(52:37):
you know, when you were talking about escape and well
you didn't call it an escape, but more of separation
and slowing down in these environments of these blue zones,
at least from what I witnessed from this show is
things are slower there, Things are slower pace, and it's
more I love and I really want to get into
some of the mindful tips that you have, because I
know that you have some great stories that back these,

(52:58):
but it's at my mindfulness of realizing, hey, you know,
I'm just picturing the old Italian guy that was putting
on his tie. It's like, you know, it's like I'm
tying a tie, and that's what.

Speaker 2 (53:07):
I'm doing in this moment.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
I'm tying a tie, and then I'm going down the stairs,
and then I'm drinking my espresso.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
And it's really that mindful.

Speaker 1 (53:15):
Before we jumped on, I was telling you that I'm
in the middle of a seventy Well, I'm just going
to be ending a seventy two hour fast, and I'm
not doing it for health benefits, So I'm not doing
it for for weight loss. I'm doing it for a
fundraiser for a forgotten turn of Haitia non for profit
that my family had once started back in nineteen ninety
three and kind of carrying on its mission. I'm bringing

(53:38):
this up because in the fasting state, we become more mindful.
I was telling you that I lost a lot of
energy in the fasting fasted state. But what it's done
for me and that I recognize, is that, you know,
I'm waking up and I'm walking slower, and I'm really
feeling all of my movements kind of because i have to,
because I'm really in all this day, I'm not feeling

(54:01):
exactly like myself and so but that's like mindfulness is
feeling every movement and how that kind of just slows
things down and put things in perspective, you know. Just
tie it back to the blue zone people. It's no
wonder they live for so long.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
It's it's incredible, it is.

Speaker 4 (54:20):
Yeah, and that slower pace, and I think one of
the things that we can talk about this later too,
but that really stands out to me about that is
when you contrast it with our agriculture is the.

Speaker 3 (54:31):
Idea of boredom.

Speaker 4 (54:32):
And we're so anti boredom in the States, in a
lot of Western society. We just like you put out
your phone, you scroll on Instagram, you listen to podcasts,
as you walk along the street. You're just like you've
got the news on in the background, you're reading a book.
We don't ever just sit and allow ourselves to be bored.
This nonsensical concept that boredom is bad, But so much

(54:54):
goodness comes from boredom. And when you have that slower pace,
when you are more mindful, when you are more aware,
and you can step into a state where you're bored
for a bit, it's amazing the things.

Speaker 3 (55:07):
That can surface.

Speaker 1 (55:08):
Yeah, I'm gonna blame grammar school teachers for that, at
least mine for that one, because anytime I daydreamed, I'd
get in trouble.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
And it's just like.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
Daydreaming, Like when you think about daydreaming as an adult
and what you and I know about wellness, it's like
daydreaming is when you're tapping into that other universe like that,
that's when you're tapping into everything, and it's like you
know what, right now, maybe the concept that you're teaching
me is not important. Just daydream is the most important.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
But they beat you up and bring you back.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
Speak speaking of bringing this back, let's let me let
I'm interested in you mentioned you know, we can talk
more about the retreats, and we certainly will. But you
did mention some of the mindful stories. We had talked
about it right before, and I'm very interested in your
theories or your thoughts on mindfulness and some of the
stories that you have that kind of connect and help

(56:01):
everybody that's listening right now really understand one it's important,
but also see how it plays out.

Speaker 4 (56:10):
The first thing that I would say, and this is
a little bit of kind of a hybrid of mindfulness
and just taking care of yourself.

Speaker 3 (56:18):
But the importance of rest cannot be overstated. When you
work as.

Speaker 4 (56:26):
Hard as a lot of us do, and you push
your body, you push your mind.

Speaker 3 (56:31):
So hard, you have to rest just as hard.

Speaker 4 (56:35):
Think about just like if you're on your phone all day,
you're playing videos, you're texting, you're emailing.

Speaker 3 (56:39):
You just got that you on your phone all day.

Speaker 4 (56:44):
By the end of the day, your battery is going
to be a heck of a lot lower than it
is if you just let it sit there all day,
so you have to spend more time charging your phone.
Makes a whole lot of sense. Our bodies are no
different if you think about your mind as a pond,
and every input that we get every day is like
throwing a rock into the pond.

Speaker 3 (57:04):
Some of them are smaller, some of them are bigger.

Speaker 4 (57:06):
But it's a text message, it's the emails, it's the
conversations we have, it's when we're driving, all the signals
and the noise that's happening out there, the notifications that
we're getting, scrolling through Instagram. All these things are like
throwing rocks into the pond. And at the end of
the day, we're just kicking up so much water. It's

(57:26):
just a freaking mess. The muck at the bottom of
the pond is all kicked up and you can't see anything.
But when you rest and you slow down and you
stop putting these inputs in, I'm not talking about rest
being like sitting on the couch and watching Netflix.

Speaker 3 (57:39):
Like that's not rest.

Speaker 4 (57:41):
Sitting on the couch scrolling your Instagram while watching Netflix,
that's not rest.

Speaker 3 (57:47):
Your brain is not recovering. You're not letting it be idle.

Speaker 4 (57:50):
It's still focused to tension is being grabbed by something,
and it's constantly being indicated with those inputs still. But
when you actually do rest and you remove those inputs,
all of a sudden, that pond starts to get a
little bit smoother. And when you can do it for
a more prolonged period of time, all of a sudden,
you can see the reflections off the pond, and then.

Speaker 3 (58:10):
You can start to see when the muck settles, what's
going on within the pond. You can see through the water.

Speaker 4 (58:16):
You can see the unique nooks and crannies, the contours
of the pond, where the logs are, where the rocks are.
Maybe they've shifted since the last time you actually had
a chance to look.

Speaker 3 (58:27):
But that ability to see into our minds.

Speaker 4 (58:29):
That ability to be able to slow down and rest
is so important because otherwise, if we continue throwing these
inputs in, we continue stressing ourselves so hard, Eventually there's
going to be erosion and there are going to be
problems that happen with that pond. So that rest that
we can get and being intentional with the way in which.

Speaker 3 (58:52):
We do rest is so important.

Speaker 4 (58:55):
When you are somebody who is a high performer who
pushes really hard, you have to learn how to asked
just as hard as you push.

Speaker 1 (59:02):
I love that, and you're right, it's the you know
you're you're a high performer. And there's so many out there,
and we see it online so much of hustle, hustle, hustle,
hustle culture, and I think that there's this this balance
that you're speaking to here that's so important in that, Yeah, hustle.
And I think the other word that you use is focus.

(59:24):
So many people and I'm sure ask you the same question,
but ask me the same question is how do you
do so much? And it's it's by having focused attention?
Is that in the moment, if I'm working on a project,
if right now we're doing a podcast together, this is
the only thing that I'm doing, I'm not doing anything else.
I'm focusing my attention here. I just watched the roast
of Tom Brady and he and they joked about him

(59:46):
and saying laser focus, laser focus, But that's what it is.
It's when you're laser focused that's going to deplete a
lot of energy, which is understandable but you're going to
accomplish so much more by having that laser focus in
that moment and then same thing, like you just said,
having that laser focus to rest and recalibrate. I love

(01:00:08):
the analogy of the pond that you just shared of
like skipping the rocks and getting filled and it just
being mucky. And then of course when you kind of
take that moment, it becomes clear and you can see
your reflection and you can start seeing clearly. And I'm
sure this is part of the experience that you offer
in these retreats. So I want to take us back
now to that twenty twenty two retreat in July and
share with us a little bit about what is the

(01:00:30):
process that you take. First of all, let's go back
to so this is sand and Salt escapes, and so
when someone buys a retreat from you, what is the
process that you take these high level executives who are
stressed out of their minds. What is the process that

(01:00:50):
you take with them to start helping them kind of
unwind and adjust to this new way of life for
this time frame that you have them for.

Speaker 4 (01:01:02):
So each of our retreats, so we have retreats, we
offer four individuals like what we're talking about here. Each
of those lasts a week and we host those in Nosara,
Costa Rica.

Speaker 3 (01:01:13):
The entire purpose of the retreats is to give people
space to slow.

Speaker 4 (01:01:16):
Down and focus on their own well being. The tools
that we use for that are movement, mindfulness, and conversation.
We take care of everything for the guest so that
they don't have to worry about planning anything. All of
those inputs that we talked about before, we remove those
for the guests, so you just have to show up
and we'll take care of everything from there. So when

(01:01:38):
we're in nosaraw for example, we have absolutely stunning accommodations
that we stay in about five minute walk from the
beach to place called Quinn Surf Residence. If anybody wants
to check it out, I could not recommend it enough.

Speaker 3 (01:01:53):
Beautiful, beautiful villa in Nosara, Costa Rica.

Speaker 4 (01:01:57):
So from everything from the accommodation that we stay, into,
having private chefs on site, the local instructors we work with,
so I don't teach anything on the retreats themselves. We
only work with local instructors who are just world class
experts in the craft. So we have movement classes in
the morning with the local instructors named John Mangona. John's

(01:02:17):
classes are all about mindful movement, connecting the body, the brain,
and the breath.

Speaker 3 (01:02:21):
The strong focus on biomechanics, just understanding how the.

Speaker 4 (01:02:24):
Systems the body really work from a holistic perspective, so
thinking about like the vestibular system, and how do we
do things like I resets when we're staring at computer
screens all day, how are we really understanding the way
that like our eyes are actually part of all our brain.
And there's different resets that you can do too with
like the back of your head because of the muscles

(01:02:44):
that are being used when you're staring at the screens
and can help reset your eyes. So we do a
lot of work like that, really working with a fascia,
working with an emphatic system, and understanding how everything the
body is connected, and really pragmatic way that people can
bring back and actually make differences and they return home.
It's like I have my own morning routine between meditation
and some somatic work, and a lot of that actually

(01:03:06):
stems from the classes.

Speaker 3 (01:03:07):
That we do with John in the morning.

Speaker 4 (01:03:09):
So we do those in there on the beach, so
beautiful way to start the day. We have private chef
Grassy Lopez, who cooks all of our food, so just
amazing grassies from Nosara, amazing fruits, vegetables, just like the
freshest stuff in the world. So we have that in
the morning, and then we have about five hours of
free time every day, so we'll put guests up with

(01:03:31):
like surf lessons atv tours if they want to do them,
really amazing spa treatments, or sometimes people just like map
or hang out by the pool, go to the beach,
do nothing, and then in the afternoon we take a
mindful in this class. So those classes are different every day,
and the reason why they're different is because when we're
back home, we just get ourselves stuck on autopilot. We're

(01:03:52):
not trying new things in the way that maybe we
used to do when we were younger. So we like
to expose people to different types of mindfulness, so we do
different kinds of ova. Classes will do breath work, we'll
do sound baths, will paint by the beach. We work
with a local artist who brings canvases and easels in
acrylic paint and we paint the beach at sunset, and
then we have dinner back with Grassy on site, and

(01:04:15):
then on the first night, the middle night, and the
last night, I facilitate some conversations that are.

Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
More reflective and help people just process.

Speaker 4 (01:04:20):
A little bit about what they're experiencing back home, what
they're experiencing and their retreat and just tune into themselves
in a different kind of way. Because when you check
all of that baggage at the door and show up
as yourself, we can create a really safe space for
people to be able to share, to reflect and do
some of that work and see some of those things
when we're not throwing the rocks in the pond all week.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
That is so cool.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
You're I'm like, as you were telling me all of
that stuff. You know, people have been sending me pictures
of cake and food, people being my brother, trying to
get me off of my seventy two hour fast. None
of that bothered me. None of it bothers me. I'm
like whatever, I'm like, I'm in my fast. It doesn't
bother me. But as as you were telling me about
this retreat, and you're talking about like the beach and

(01:05:05):
painting and the chef and all now I'm salivating not
for food ready, not for food, but straight up for
I'm like, how can I get my wife and kids
to go on a retreat with me like this? Because
this is awesome. It's something that I think about very often.
You know, we think about experiences and as as business

(01:05:25):
owners today that you and I are, and as executives
that we once were, the experiences that we have are
are They're tremendous. You know when you think about corporate
retreats and being able to go and do something with
your colleagues outside of the office, and how you just
start bonding in a different way and it really translates
into your work in you know, especially if you're in

(01:05:47):
a corporate and I want to say this intentionally, especially
if you're in a corporate career that you really enjoy,
which is wonderful and we totally encourage, is that when
you do these kinds of retreats, when you do experiential
type of things together or it bonds you, but it
also kind of adds a refresher to the office life
and you're like, all right, cool, let's get another like

(01:06:07):
three months in and next quarter, let's go hit the slopes.
Let's go to the beach. Let's go like there's just
it's just such a reinvigorating way. And as entrepreneurs, we're
fortunate because we get to add it to somewhat of
our daily routines on a smaller scale. Like you know,
I I sent a picture to my mom the other day.
She was asking me, you know, how are you doing
with the fast and everything. I said, well, you know,

(01:06:28):
I have a great office. And I sent her a
picture of my office and it was a chair. It's
a chair in my backyard in the grass and there
was a you know, umbrella over it in the shade.
And I'm like, that's my office today. I'm gonna I'm
sitting outside just enjoying the nice weather.

Speaker 2 (01:06:43):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
So we as entrepreneurs can make decisions for ourselves to
be able to work in different environments and take time
and say I'm going to meditate, I'm going to do
what I need in order to be mindful. And I
want to bring this back to you in terms of
being the founder of an organization like you have have
knowing that nutrition, that mental health, that sleep, that rest

(01:07:04):
and recovery is so important. And at the same time,
you bootstrapped a company. You have a board of directors,
if I'm mistake, not mistaken here, you have people that
are counting on you. You have employees and team members that
are counting on you. And so the level of stress
stress that you once left different type of stress. You've

(01:07:26):
now almost kind of reinvigorated. And I might be using
the wrong word in terms of stress, but I'm curious,
as everybody is, how do you now find the balance
of having this great mindset that you have and great
routines and at the same time work at a high level.

Speaker 4 (01:07:46):
It's not easy at all. I have good days, I
have bad days. I think to the point you made earlier, though,
when you learn how to practice my fulness and you
have a good therapist and you have the support systems
in place, it makes it much easier to handle what

(01:08:08):
is objectively more stress and more pressure now. But having
the tools to be able to navigate that is the
biggest game changer for me. And that shows up in
terms of the support systems that I have. It shows
up in terms of the daily rhythms that I have,
so I start every morning.

Speaker 3 (01:08:30):
I'm not one of those crazy people who wakes up
at like four am, takes.

Speaker 4 (01:08:33):
A cold plunge and does all of like the crazy
stuff that I then post on Instagram.

Speaker 3 (01:08:38):
That's not my morning routine. I generally wake up.

Speaker 4 (01:08:41):
Closer like seven seven thirty, like a like a normal person.
But I do have my own morning routine where I meditate,
I do some brushing, I do some emphatic massage on
myself just to get that moving, and depending upon how
where my body's out, I might do a little bit
more movement, just do like some cars or controlled articular

(01:09:05):
rotations and things like that to live up the joins
a little bit and just feel myself in my body.
But that's one thing that I always prioritize every morning,
and there there have been some mornings where I have
not done it, and you can feel a difference every
time when you don't, and that's so yeah, that's pretty
non negotiable for me. Every morning is just that morning routine.

(01:09:26):
I'm incredibly conscious as well of social media and watching TV.

Speaker 3 (01:09:32):
We don't really watch TV.

Speaker 4 (01:09:34):
Try to stay off of that, try to sell off
screens as much as possible, because I think that there's
a lot a lot on your plate when you're an
entrepreneur and when you're running a company and we oftentimes,
I think, can get very overwhelmed by that. So when
we're inundating ourselves with more just unnecessary scrolling, with watching

(01:09:54):
different things on the television, versus like yesterday, I was
feeling pretty best and had some time in the afternoon.
I just got up and I went and walked. Fortunate
to live by the beach out here in LA and
just like went and I just walked the beach for
an hour and a half and I came back. My
mental state was so much different than it was when

(01:10:15):
I left, and I was able to actually sit down
and get some things done. But just kind of those
small recognitions in learning how my body likes to function
and not when I'm struggling to concentrate her, I'm feeling
really anxious, going I just got to push through, Just
push through, just push through, instaid saying hold on what's
going on here and what might I be able to
do to actually address this, versus trying to push through

(01:10:36):
because that usually ends up being counterproductive anyway. So yeah,
it's been a very helpful thing starting a company that
is entirely focused on mindfulness, because it's a great way
to keep you accountable to your own practice.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
Yeah, yeah, and you know, I mean it's a huge
mindset shift. You know, we were talking about mindset before
jumping on, and it's a huge mindset shift because I
love what you said here is that you know, the
the stress and the pressure, it's almost the same, and
as you said, objectively, maybe even even more, but you
now have the tools.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
And I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
And here's why I love it, because everybody listening is
in different places in their lives. You're all listening right now,
and you might be working corporate, you might be thinking
about founding a company, or you are and you already
are in that phase. And what what we realize is
that when we're in that moment, the pressure is always
going to be around us. We never get away from

(01:11:31):
it because we're achievers. You know, we're not looking to
be complacent. We're not looking to be status quo. Fly
under the radar and just do the thing to get
us to the next next year of our life if
you want to. If you're living that life, I know
you're not listening to this podcast. So we're cool here,
So we're all on the same page it right, So
the stress never goes away. So what do you do
it's the tools. I love that you said that, it's

(01:11:53):
the tools that you start tapping into, the therapist, the coach,
the mindfulness, breathing, the exercise, all these different things that
you start paying attention to, taking a walk on the beach.
And then the other part I love of this is
when we think about our days and we go, well,
I got too much on my plate. What is on
my plate that perhaps I could eliminate? And if we're

(01:12:16):
using food as an example, you know, if our food
is full of you know, it has some steak on
it has some vegetables on it, but also has a
bunch of muffins and cake and candy on it, which
would be our Netflix, our social media and other things, Well,
can we eliminate some of those things to make some
more room. And that's the walk on the beach. That's

(01:12:36):
the walk. You know, I take the walks too. Those
are the walks that we could start incorporating our lives.
But there has to be a mindset shift in order
to start realizing that. That's one a priority to take
the walk over pushing through, and another mindset shift in
order to invest in ourselves, because there's a financial investment
that comes into therapy and coaching and some yoga classes

(01:12:59):
or whatever. So I'm curious on your thoughts on that
mindset shift and some of the best ways to be
able to make that shift.

Speaker 4 (01:13:08):
Yeah, the big shift for me was realizing that the
mornings that I say that I don't have time to
do it, or when I think, oh gosh, I don't
have twenty thirty minutes to do this, it's again kind
of going back to that idea of risk we talked
about before, of flipping it on its head and saying,
do I have time today to not do this? What's

(01:13:30):
the impact of if I don't sit down and just
connect with myself in the morning and pay attention and
tune in. Those are the days where everything spiles out
of control, where you don't have that intentionality with your time,
where you're just reacting from thing to thing to thing
to thing rather than understanding what's happening and responding to it.

(01:13:50):
So that to me was a big shift of realizing
is it like And it's also practicing You're going to
do it some days, some days you won't. But when
you stick with it for a consistent period of time
and then you don't engage with your practice, you notice it,
and that's when that shift starts to happen.

Speaker 3 (01:14:08):
So my encouragement.

Speaker 4 (01:14:09):
Anybody listening to this would be to commit if you're
interested in building out a mindfuldes practice, whether that's meditation,
whether that's yoga, whatever, that means for you to commit
to it for a period of time three weeks, four weeks,
and just say I'm going to do this and.

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):
Then notice when and it will happen. There will be
days where you don't practice. Just pay attention and see
what was that day, like, maybe how was.

Speaker 4 (01:14:35):
That related to me not engaging with my mindfulness practice.
So I think that for me was a really big
shift when I started to realize that the busier my
day was was actually more important for me to take
that time to sit down and practice mindfulness rather than
when I've got all just like oh this wide open

(01:14:55):
space that generally is like probably a less of a
need that day to engage with that practice.

Speaker 3 (01:15:00):
I still do it, but that was the flip in
the equation for me.

Speaker 1 (01:15:05):
Yeah, I notice it for me too, when I have
to do I do more. Talks are more of my
stressful thing. Meetings are great, Coaching is great. Prospecting. I'm
fine with all of that stuff, but when it's time
for me to give a talk or do a webinar
or anything, that's when as much as I love it,
and it's like why I got in the business, and

(01:15:26):
that's probably why I know I love it, because I
love it and I want to push through it, and
it's always a challenge for me. But those are I
block off the day before and I block off every
minute leading up until the talk, and it's because I
need to shift my mindset into the talk. I need
to do my breath work, I need to do my meditation.

(01:15:46):
And I love self hypnosis. That's something that I'm just
like in love with, especially when I don't hear, like
I listened to I listened to audio for the House
self hypnosis, and I love when I come out of
it and I'm like, I didn't even hear hear any
of the audio, and that is when you know you
went deep. It's like that was awesome. But yeah, you know,

(01:16:08):
it's like really stepping away from all of that stuff,
all of that distraction something else I kind of want
to dive into it. It's maybe a shift of gears,
but I think it's kind of along the same track
here is relationships. For you, cultivating meaningful relationships along the
way has been vital to the founding of your company.

(01:16:29):
I mean, I'm sure many of the people that sit
on your board are through these relationships. I underline the
word meaningful relationships, meaningful being the key here, and I'm
curious on why you know that's something that was that
you wrote meaningful relationships. I'm curious on how and why
meaningful relationships are so important to you.

Speaker 4 (01:16:54):
I've always been someone who just cares about people first.
It's why I had some issues towards the end of
my career where I had a couple of director ports
are going through some pretty significant personal milestones and I
and this was back when I was the consulting days,
and I was told at one point, you need to
be spending less time supporting people in more time out

(01:17:17):
working with clients. And that was a real wake up
call for me and that I wasn't going to be
able to lead at that organization the way that it
was authentic to who I am as an individual. So
when I started sending all escapes, I realized that I

(01:17:38):
get to build this sandbox and I get to build
something where we put people first above everything else. So
one of the first things we did was get really
clear on the values of the organization, which are also
my values as an individual. So it was we talked
about that earlier. But authenticity was the first one. Kindness
was another one, Exploration of yourself in the world, and

(01:18:01):
then simplicity were the four values.

Speaker 3 (01:18:04):
And those have not.

Speaker 4 (01:18:05):
Just been words on our website or other assets, but
we put them to work in the people that we
select to come on with retreats.

Speaker 3 (01:18:14):
Because then can't just go to our website and sign
up for a retreat.

Speaker 4 (01:18:17):
We have to schedule a call, we have a conversation
and make sure that everybody who is joining is aligned
and will be.

Speaker 3 (01:18:24):
Very additive to the retreat experience itself.

Speaker 4 (01:18:27):
It's the same filter we use for all of our
partners when we are working in this AAR, and we
also run our corporate events in Palm Springs, so all
of those relationships we have all been run through this filter,
and we've let go all a lot of relationships early on.
It was a a challenging thing for me to really

(01:18:47):
figure out, how do we test these values really early
and get to know that so we ended up.

Speaker 3 (01:18:52):
We've hired and let go of probably.

Speaker 4 (01:18:55):
I think twelve or thirteen different partners throughout the process,
so it's been definitely a process of refining. But those
values are the way that we put people first in
everything that we do.

Speaker 3 (01:19:08):
So the guests that have come down on.

Speaker 4 (01:19:10):
The retreats were so fortunate that they've become phenomenal friends.
We're going down in a couple of weeks to run
our eleventh retreat now, and this one was invite only.

Speaker 3 (01:19:21):
We opened it up to only.

Speaker 4 (01:19:22):
Past guests from our first seven retreats and it sold
out with in four.

Speaker 3 (01:19:27):
Days we got sixteen people coming down.

Speaker 4 (01:19:29):
So it's just this community in these friendships that have
been born out of this have been phenomenal. You mentioned
the advisory board that I built out. It's all made
up of past guests either from our work on the
individual retreats or on the corporate off sites, who have
been part of those experiences and have expertise in areas
that are critical to the business.

Speaker 3 (01:19:50):
So back in August of twenty twenty three, I.

Speaker 4 (01:19:53):
Built out an advisory board because I knew that to
help get the business to the next level, we needed
more support and I needed more support too as.

Speaker 3 (01:20:00):
An individual and as a leader.

Speaker 4 (01:20:02):
So that was but those are all from relationships we
had made through the retreats and through the off sites,
and so everything that we do, it's always putting the
relationship first. We go down before retreats, we go down
a couple of days early, stay a couple of days late.
We're getting breakfast, we're getting coffee, we're getting lunch with
different instructors or different partners down there, just catching up

(01:20:24):
as people and making friends in the process. And that's
for me, the most rewarding part of all of this
is just the people.

Speaker 3 (01:20:30):
And that's what we got to keep at the center
of it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:33):
You know, I love that you were talking about that
that it's you don't just take anybody. And I think,
you know this, this is interesting because I was invited
on a Mastermind retreat and you know, the person had
really great intentions.

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
They really did.

Speaker 1 (01:20:45):
They were trying to help me with something I was
working on in my business, and as he was sharing
the retreat with me, he was talking about smoking cigars
and drinking bourbon and shooting guns and doing all this
other stuff and as well as working on our business,
which by the way, they work on their business, high
level people and all this other stuff. But it didn't

(01:21:06):
make sense for me. It didn't align with me because
I don't drink anymore and I don't smoke anymore, and
shooting guns I think could be fun, but really doesn't
entice me. So I was like, this is a cool retreat,
but it's not right for me. And I think that
that's so important that that people recognize that, you know,

(01:21:29):
whether something is right for them. Sorry, there's a phone
ringing in this office here, and I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:21:35):
It's the bat phone.

Speaker 2 (01:21:37):
Yeah, it's it's the batphone. Sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:21:39):
Everyone, I've never had this experience here, but yeah, you know,
it wasn't the right retreat for me. And so what
I'm curious on you mentioned you're looking for people that
are aligned and that you know, are willing to you know,
break free and be accepting of certain things. So I'm
just a little curious on some of the questions that

(01:22:00):
you might ask somebody if they, you know, were coming on,
if they said, hey, look I want to jump on
this retreat. What are maybe one or two of the
questions that you ask.

Speaker 4 (01:22:09):
Yeah, so I can break that down into the retreats
and then also for the offset because those are a
little bit different in the way that we approach those
and the kind of conversations we have that makes sense.
So for the individuals, we the first question, it's like
such a simple, easy question, but it's just why are
you interested in joining? And that right there will share

(01:22:29):
a lot of the intention behind it.

Speaker 3 (01:22:32):
We don't.

Speaker 4 (01:22:33):
And we've had people who are just like, yeah, they're
just looking for vacations. No, not like that's that's how
we do.

Speaker 3 (01:22:37):
It's like, it's like a vacation plus is the way
I like to look at what we do.

Speaker 4 (01:22:41):
But if you're just coming down for just a vacation,
and we've told people, nope, absolutely not. We've also had
people reach out who are going through like very significant
almost like crises.

Speaker 3 (01:22:49):
Then we have said, hey, this is not going to
be the place for you.

Speaker 4 (01:22:53):
To come to that we're not mental health professionals, but
here are some resources that might be helpful for you.

Speaker 3 (01:22:58):
So and getting a chance of parsos.

Speaker 4 (01:23:00):
Apart and then just diving in and understanding more about
who they are and the things that are important to
them and making sure that they are people who are
open and people who are kind. Those are the two
things that I've always got in the back of my
head and introductory conversation, is this person open and is
this person kind? And you can usually parsos apart pretty quickly.

(01:23:24):
But those are the two biggest things that we're always
looking for. And then when we're talking with a potential
client on the corporate side, and we've had to walk
away from a lot of business over there because we'll
have organizations reach out and they want to run like
an incentive compensation trip for their top sales people. That's
not I've been on those, I'm familiar with those. That
is not what we do with this work. So we've

(01:23:46):
walked away from a lot of deals on that side.
But we're always looking for leaders who genuinely care about
their people as human beings and want to invest in
them as human beings.

Speaker 3 (01:23:55):
Because these tools.

Speaker 4 (01:23:56):
Around mindfulness, they're so impactful in a way that they
can change your perspective in the way that you see
the world, and they also can change the relationships you
have with your colleagues, which you were mentioning before, Like
that's such an impactful piece of this. When we're sitting
there at an executive team and you've got seven people
who haven't explored some of these types of conversations before.

Speaker 3 (01:24:16):
But if we have a leader who has genuinely cares.

Speaker 4 (01:24:19):
About other people's human beings and has built a culture
of openness within their organization, it's a beautiful, beautiful synchronicity.

Speaker 2 (01:24:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:24:27):
And what you find, and you could probably attest to this,
is that people stay.

Speaker 2 (01:24:31):
Longer and those jobs.

Speaker 1 (01:24:33):
I know, you know, I was I think it was
Adam Grant's book I was reading and just kind of
like studying some of this and that you know, people don't.

Speaker 2 (01:24:40):
Leave jobs because of a pay raise.

Speaker 1 (01:24:44):
They'll say that that's kind of like that's the that's
the symptom that they're going to say, is I should
be getting paid more and all this other stuff. But
it's really about feeling appreciated, feeling that you know their
work matters, and by doing things like this it certainly
certainly helps that. You know, I really I love this.
By the way, this is this is like so cool,

(01:25:04):
you know, as I as I kind of like was
able to break break away from learning that you're not
a travel blogger and learning about the type of business
you actually have. It's like it taps into so many
different things I'm just like, oh my goodness, I got
to collaborate with this guy.

Speaker 2 (01:25:16):
I gotta do.

Speaker 1 (01:25:16):
Something with him because it's it's so in tune with
the things I love and enjoy practicing. But before we
really conclude, I want to just dive into a little
bit of the entrepreneur space here with you, because you've
done so much from going from corporate to becoming an entrepreneur,
and you have so many lessons to impart with everybody.

(01:25:38):
And one of the things that I read about you
that you said is, you know, the faster you can
get a viable product in front of people, the faster
you'll learn and adapt. And so I'm just curious on
some of the other ideas or maybe you know thoughts
of wisdom that you have that you might be able
to share. You know, I think an advisory board is
another great place to start with this, because that's another

(01:26:01):
great idea that you're sharing with all of us today
and that you know, get some smart people around you
in order to help move your mission forward.

Speaker 3 (01:26:10):
Absolutely, that's been a game changer for me.

Speaker 4 (01:26:12):
In August, I built and I realized August of this
past year, I realized that to get the business to
this next stage of growth that we need to get to.
I can't keep going at this kind of alone. I
need some formalized advisors. I had people who are mentoring
and helping in pockets, but I wanted to formalize it
and I want to be able to tackle real meaty
issues with them.

Speaker 3 (01:26:33):
So that was a huge benefit for.

Speaker 4 (01:26:37):
The last I guess nine or some months now at
this point, where we've met once a month, I sent
on a deck ahead of time and that with the
issue that we're going to tackle, and we get a
nice facilitate like a ninety minute working session with a
group of people who have been on the retreat or
the offsete before, who understand it and are so excited.

Speaker 3 (01:26:53):
To help and that.

Speaker 4 (01:26:54):
So that's been a really helpful thing for me is
knowing that being an entrepreneur can be really lonely. It's
something that not a lot of people go through, so
not a lot of people understand, which makes a lot
of sense.

Speaker 3 (01:27:08):
But when you can accept.

Speaker 4 (01:27:10):
That and realize that it is a lonely experience, but
that just means that when you find those people who
do get it and who can support it makes it
that much more meaningful.

Speaker 3 (01:27:21):
So finding that right support system has been huge for me.
Another thing that has been really influential in the way.

Speaker 4 (01:27:28):
That I lead the company, And this will sound a
little woou at first, but give give me a second to.

Speaker 3 (01:27:33):
Explain the.

Speaker 4 (01:27:36):
I do my utmost to slow down and let the
business tell me what it needs to be rather than
making the business what I think that it should be.

Speaker 3 (01:27:46):
And what I mean by that is.

Speaker 4 (01:27:49):
So many times we get in our own head about
what something should be and like what we're going out
to create, and you just have like this goal and
this thing that you're like, this is what I'm doing.
When we get so focused on that, we miss so
many of the signals that are going on around us.
We almost have blinders as we're marching along this singular path.
So I very like, very in tune with what the

(01:28:12):
ethos is of the work that we're doing, with what
our mission is, but allowing it to take whatever form.

Speaker 3 (01:28:17):
That it needs to for us to accomplish. That has
been a really big leap of faith.

Speaker 4 (01:28:21):
And there's a very interesting parallel with mindfulness with that too,
because the way that we experience the world that we
talked about before is through our bodies, our minds, interpret it.
But we experience the world through the bodies, So slowing
down and listening to our bodies is a really helpful
way for us to be present to understand what's going on.
The way that we experience being an entrepreneur is through
the business. That's how we're an entrepreneur. So when we

(01:28:42):
can slow down and we can pay attention, we can
see what's happening in different aspects of the business and
be able to observe it from a non biased, nonjudgmental perspective.
You can start to see the signals that exist there,
and you can see things a little bit differently because
you're not just jamming it down to be what you
think it's suppose was to be or what you wanted.

Speaker 3 (01:29:01):
To be, because ultimately, as.

Speaker 4 (01:29:03):
An entrepreneur, what you want it to be is like
that's all well and good, but it all matters what
the market cares about. So getting a chance to listen
to the business and understand what's happening versus making this
thing be exactly as I think that it should be
has been a huge process of letting go for me,
But at the same time it's allowed me, i think,
to move in sync with the business in a way

(01:29:25):
that has allowed us to really iterate so quickly. In movement,
We've run eleven retreats in the first twenty four months.
We sold out all of twenty twenty four. We've got
our corporate work that's just rolling. We're actually starting up
a second company that's going to be entirely focused on
just serving corporate clients and separating that from sound Soft

(01:29:46):
Escapes itself. But these are the things that when I
started the company, initially I thought, I'm only working direct
to consider I'm never touching anything corporate again.

Speaker 3 (01:29:54):
I like, I hate that world. I want nothing to
do with it.

Speaker 4 (01:29:57):
But then I just started paying attention and started seeing
some signals, started getting reach out to people in my network.

Speaker 3 (01:30:01):
It's like, oh, that's interesting, how might we explore that?
What might that look like?

Speaker 4 (01:30:05):
But if I was so focused on that idea of
the thing that I thought that it should be, we
would have missed this entirely other, magnificent opportunity to be
able to make an impact.

Speaker 3 (01:30:14):
The space that I think really desperately needs it.

Speaker 4 (01:30:17):
So that idea of just being able to slow down
and listen to what the business is telling me that
it needs or that it should be rather than just
me projecting my own thoughts and my own perception of it,
which is very limited. Has been a massive, massive shift
in the way that I show up and I lead,
but particularly I think for running your own compani as

(01:30:38):
an entrepreneur, it's such a helpful mindset to have.

Speaker 1 (01:30:42):
Yeah, that was a really great explanation of it. And
I again want to echo the analogy there of your body.
You experience the world through your body or life through
your body, and you experience the business, you experience what
you need through the business.

Speaker 2 (01:30:55):
I love that A.

Speaker 1 (01:30:57):
Couple questions for you in terms of an advisory board
out of curiosity, and this doesn't necessarily have to be
the way that are you currently have your advisory board,
but just curiosity in a sense of you obviously have
been exposed to different types of advisory boards and made
a decision on the one that you have, so you
don't have to be as open and transparent as how
you run yours. But I'm curious is there compensation involved

(01:31:20):
in an advisory board? Is there any What are the
benefits for people to join an advisory board?

Speaker 2 (01:31:25):
What's to ask of.

Speaker 1 (01:31:26):
Them their commitment? And I asked this in a very
general way. For anybody that's curious on trying to create
their own advisory boards, maybe different ways to hack it.

Speaker 4 (01:31:36):
Yeah, the advisory board that we have set up is
made up of six people. What was critically important to
me was it everybody who's on the board was somebody
who's experienced our service so and on their own volition,
not somebody that I talked to and convinced to come
down early on or anything like that, but somebody who
we didn't know beforehand, or who had joined Retreat and

(01:31:58):
has expertise in this a space that's very beneficial for
the business. So that familiarity with the business was something
that was really important to me, making sure that we
had people who are passionate about this subject, because that's
going to go so much farther than if we've got
people who know nothing about it or who don't have

(01:32:18):
any passion about it. So familiarity and passion around the
topic are I think very important for spinning up a
board of advisors. I think it's also very important to
have people who have expertise areas that are important to
your business. So understanding your business understanding is it like
on an operational on the operational side of things.

Speaker 3 (01:32:37):
Is it from a design perspective, is it.

Speaker 4 (01:32:39):
From whatever it is for you with business development, But
finding people who have expertise in the areas that are
most important to your business is also something that's important.
We do have compensation set up for our advisors and
we meet once a month for about ninety minutes. A
lot of times it ends up going over, but we

(01:33:00):
meet about ninety minutes every month and I bring forward
a subject that's really important for the business at that time,
and we'll I'll kind of plan a different type of
facilitated activity of way that we're going to solve for
it for each conversation, and then we.

Speaker 3 (01:33:15):
Go at it.

Speaker 4 (01:33:16):
And I think it's for me and leading those two
what's been so important is making sure that I communicate,
not just communicate, but also set the model the behavior
that I'm not looking for rubber stamp. I guess I
don't want people to get like the job of the
board advisors is not to get on here and tell
me like, you're doing a great job, this looks great, awesome,

(01:33:36):
that's not it. I need to be challenged. I want
to be challenged. I want differing opinions. I want different perspectives.
So I'm very been very clear about that with the
charter of it and then the communication. But then when
those differing opinions, when the challenges come up, that's when
as a leader, you also have to react in a
way that does continue to create space for that behavior

(01:33:58):
in the future.

Speaker 3 (01:34:00):
That's been some of our most.

Speaker 4 (01:34:05):
Influential decisions and influential things that have come from those
meetings have been things that caught me off guard, things
that challenge me, and you can feel that freaking amignaler
response firing in your brain and knowing that like, okay,
this is like I'm starting to feel myself get defensive
about this. But that mindfulness again is so helpful because
you can recognize that and then you don't react in

(01:34:26):
that way.

Speaker 3 (01:34:28):
But those challenges to the way that.

Speaker 4 (01:34:30):
You're thinking about things are so important because otherwise we
just get in our own little bubble, we do the
things that we think are good. But again going back
to the idea of like letting the business tell you
what it's going to be. Surround yourself by people who
are really freaking smart in the areas that are really
important to your.

Speaker 3 (01:34:42):
Business, and you'll get some good ideas.

Speaker 4 (01:34:44):
But you've got to be open to actually being challenged
and truly want that and react in a way that
you're not showing up with maybe some biases and some
kind of old ways of thinking.

Speaker 1 (01:34:56):
Yeah, the feedback is so crucial. You're making me think about,
just in terms of public speaking, of when I ask
for feedback from a workshop or after a workshop or
something and I receive like you just said, it was great,
it was awesome, It's like, okay, cool, But that's not
why I'm asking for the feedback, because that feeds a

(01:35:18):
different part of me that I actually don't need. I
don't need the ego to be fed. I'm not here
for the ego. I'm here to be able to create
change in your life and transformation, and so I need
the feedback of what can I do better or what
landed and how can I dive deeper in it? And
so what I learned with that, and I'm sure you've
learned as well, is it also has to do with

(01:35:38):
the questions that we ask is to ask more specific
questions about what we're doing and to have this curious
mind of okay, and why are you thinking of it
that way? So I think I love that that you
shared that, and I also appreciate your transparency in terms
of how your board operates. I think that that's really
helpful for everybody listening right now myself by the way

(01:36:01):
of how an advisory board can work, there's obviously a
multitude of ways. This is the way that it works
for you.

Speaker 3 (01:36:08):
Yeah, Yeah, it's just it's just what works for me.
I had.

Speaker 4 (01:36:11):
I've been familiarity with boards from my corporate life, but
this was kind of me just sitting back and saying
what's gonna work best for what we need right now.
And I didn't try to model it, after anything. I
just tried to make it what was going to work
for us. So yeah, there's a ton of different ways
to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:36:25):
Yeah, and it's certainly, you know, a great way to
I'm going to use this as kind of like a
marketing piece too, because when you when you bring in
these people who have one experienced it and then now
are bought in because they're starting to be able to
share their ideas with you and kind of game gameplay

(01:36:47):
a little bit with you, and there's some sort of
element of you mentioned compensation, So there's some sort of
element of hey, I get a little bit out of
this too. Well, boy, you just built not just a
great advisory board that can help promote that can help
build the business, but also one that can help promote
the business because they have a little bit to gain

(01:37:08):
out of the success of the business. So it's like
we think about, oh my goodness, I'm growing a blank
on the on the phrase that's used, But your biggest
advocates for your business, Well, you've just built them out
of your advisory board. So it's it's it's a brilliant idea.

Speaker 3 (01:37:25):
And the compensation the offer is a free retreat.

Speaker 2 (01:37:27):
That's awesome. I mean that's awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:37:29):
Just keep people like, keep people in it, keep people
feeling it. And yeah, and the so the community that
gets built and nobody on the board knew each other
ahead of time, but just seeing the relationships that have
spun up from that and the conversations that people have
outside of board meetings, like that's the stuff that gets
to be so excited.

Speaker 3 (01:37:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:37:45):
Yeah, it's evangelist. The word that I was looking for
is that so often we hear in terms of building businesses,
is that you want to find your evangelists.

Speaker 2 (01:37:53):
The people that are going that are.

Speaker 1 (01:37:55):
So bought into what you do, so brought into your mission,
so bought into your values that they're sing it with
the world because that is the best form of marketing.
You can do marketing campaigns at campaign, social media, do emails,
all the rest. That's all wonderful, but it's the people.
It's the word of mouth. It's the people that have
gone on your retreats or whatever service you're selling or
product you're selling, that have experienced it and that share

(01:38:16):
it with their friends and family. That's how people buy.
I mean I know that for myself when when I'm
looking for something, all I got to do is just
go to my chamber of commerce. I just and I
just go through my business cards. Oh yeah, I met
this person, Let me give them a call, because it's
out of that or asking somebody, hey, who do you
know that I can? This is how we buy. And
so when you could build out evangelist, I mean, that's

(01:38:36):
just tremendous. I want to ask you about patience and
I'm going to frame it in this sense and that
you were talking about when you went on the retreat
with your wife, Well it wasn't a retreat at the time,
but when you took the month long sabbatical, you started
learning how to surf, and every day you went out
and surfed. And today you listen to your business and

(01:39:02):
every day you kind of let your business guide you
into the direction that it's headed. And to me, that
goes into patients of being patient of learning and learning
new things, and learning new experiences, and being a beginner
in new experiences and new things. And so I'm just
curious on your mindset on patients.

Speaker 3 (01:39:26):
I struggle with patients. It's very funny.

Speaker 4 (01:39:31):
So I've been officially running this company for I started
at about two and a half years ago. I've been
full time in it after consulting days ended just over
two years from now. And when we step back and
look at the last two years, and we've run eleven
direct to consumer retreats, four corporate events. We've got more

(01:39:54):
coming this year, and you're kind of looking at this
one like.

Speaker 3 (01:39:57):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 4 (01:39:58):
In the last when you tell people about it, a
lot of times your actors, oh my gosh, that's amazing
how you've done all of that so quickly.

Speaker 3 (01:40:07):
And this is not to say that I have, because
I have.

Speaker 4 (01:40:10):
Like in the way that I experience it internally is
it has been so painfully slow because I want to
keep iterating, I want to keep pushing it, I want
to move fast. And I mean, I've worked more hours
in the last two and a half years than I
could ever count. It's probably like why we've done about

(01:40:31):
five years of work in about probably two and a
half years is because of the sheer hours and the
iteration and.

Speaker 3 (01:40:36):
The smart people we've been very fortunate to have around
through this process.

Speaker 4 (01:40:41):
But it doesn't it feels like every day is kind
of an eternity sometimes when you're running your own company
and you don't really know what to do next, but
you know you want to keep pushing, and sometimes you
need to sit in things and you need to listen,
and you need to pay attention, you need to understand.
And that has been such a strong tension for me,

(01:41:03):
of this consistent push towards action, Like you want to move,
you want to act, you want to act, you want
to move, you want to iterate, but sometimes you have
to be patient. Sometimes you have to slow down and
realize that you can't do something the way you want
to at that moment. We've had or maybe like with

(01:41:25):
the different partners that we work with, sometimes I need
to wait a few more days before I follow up
with an email response, but everything is just like so
important to me right now.

Speaker 3 (01:41:32):
I need to go push push, push, push push.

Speaker 4 (01:41:34):
So that ability to just be patient and slow down
is one that I feel like I am constantly tested with,
but I'm learning how to get better on that front,
and kind of the idea the way that I like
to think about it is of just playing chess versus checkers.
And sometimes when we're feeling very impatient, we're playing checkers,

(01:41:56):
we're just like doing that next thing, and we're not
being strategic and we're just reacting to something, Versus when
we have patience and we can see the big picture,
we can play chess.

Speaker 3 (01:42:07):
We can see three moves ahead. If we just take
a beat and.

Speaker 4 (01:42:11):
Slow down for a minute and kind of listen and
see what's going on, then we can start to play
chess and see around the corner. And when you kind
of had those experiences where you realize, oh gosh, i've
been playing checkers on this one, it teaches you pretty
quickly that patience is important. Even though you're just like
I'm feeling that tension, I'm wanting to go I want
to push sometimes you realize that you're gonna go down

(01:42:34):
their own path if you do that.

Speaker 3 (01:42:35):
So that's been my relationship with patience.

Speaker 1 (01:42:40):
Yeah, and it's it's I mean, patience is it's it
comes in different ways, and you're talking about it in
terms of time, and I also think it's it's also
about like like we were just talking about earlier with
the surfing, it's it's also learning. It's being patient to
learn new things. And you know, I didn't learn to
surf at like you did. I don't surf at all,

(01:43:01):
by the way, but I did take a lesson in surfing.
And so that's why I'm bringing this up in that,
you know, when I took the lesson in surfing, I
was like, I just want to get out and hit
the waves with the surfboard. And you know, so the
first morning I get out there and they have us
on the beach on the sand and it's learning how
to get up on the surfboard, and I'm like, oh
my goodness, like I just I just want to go
out on the waves, like I'm a boogie boarder. Right

(01:43:23):
So I'm sure, I'm sure you don't have care much
for me.

Speaker 2 (01:43:26):
Right now.

Speaker 1 (01:43:26):
What they call a sponge as my brother in law
whose surfs calls me but a sponger. I love boogey boarding.
It's something I've always enjoyed doing and I still do it.
But anyway, so I'm like, oh, I know how to
get it out in the water and come on, like,
let's get out there.

Speaker 2 (01:43:39):
Let's get out there.

Speaker 1 (01:43:40):
And then by by not taking the time to learn
how to truly get up on a board, I never
got up on the board. I got out there, I
hit the waves, and I'm like I'm on it and
I'm paddling and I'm like all right, and I'm losing balance.

Speaker 2 (01:43:52):
I'm not figuring it out.

Speaker 1 (01:43:53):
And so patience is so important in learning and like
you said, iterating new things, because you have to really
learn the little minute steps along the way. Otherwise, when
you're trying to get up on that wave, it's never
gonna happen if you haven't taken the moment, the time
on the beach, on the sand to learn how to

(01:44:14):
jump quickly onto your.

Speaker 4 (01:44:15):
Feet, yeah, how to actually get up on the board,
how to read the ocean, understand like what is a wave?

Speaker 3 (01:44:24):
One of one of the craziest things that blew my mind.

Speaker 4 (01:44:26):
When we started learning how to surf was what a
wave actually is. And so you always think about the
wave is the water that's moving through the ocean.

Speaker 3 (01:44:34):
The wave is not the water. The wave is the energy.

Speaker 4 (01:44:37):
So that energy starts in a storm, and we're out
here in La that starts in a storm in the
South Pacific, like off the coast of Southeast Asia, travels
thousands of miles.

Speaker 3 (01:44:47):
Through the water.

Speaker 4 (01:44:48):
Because when if you watch a wave like out in
the ocean, the water kind of comes up and down,
it's not the water that's actually moving, it's the energy
that's come from that storm into the water that is
kind of conglomerated and is moving in a certain direction.

Speaker 3 (01:45:01):
And then as that energy.

Speaker 4 (01:45:03):
Transfers all the way like thousands of miles and gets
to the beach, when you start to have like sandbars.

Speaker 3 (01:45:09):
Or point breaks that are going to.

Speaker 4 (01:45:10):
Cause that energy to consolidate, that's when it creates the
wave that then crashes. So when you get up on
a surfboard and it feels like nothing else in the world,
or the idea of stoke that people talk about, that's
what you're feeling, is you're feeling that energy that came
from two thousand miles away and actually transferred through your
board and into your body, and like that's what the
feeling is with that. So just learning those types of

(01:45:32):
things about surfing, the understanding okay, like how do identify
where the peak is? Where do I need to paddle to?
Do I need to be out farther? Do I need
to be like a.

Speaker 3 (01:45:39):
Little bit closer in where? Like where am I supposed
to be? How do I paddle?

Speaker 4 (01:45:42):
Probably all of those nuances are the things that, Yeah,
if you don't learn those ahead of time, you just
goe out there and you try to start winging it,
You're just going to spend a lot of your time
like in the water. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:45:51):
Yeah, And that's just a really great analogy to life
and to entrepreneurship is learning all of the nuances. And
and I love how you describe the energy in a
storm because I never knew that. And all the different
things that are leading to your business and that are
transforming around you, the industries that are transforming around you,
the people you know, the centers of influence that you
could tap into.

Speaker 2 (01:46:13):
All of this has.

Speaker 1 (01:46:14):
To do with the entrepreneur journey and building a business.
It's it's an incredible business that you've built. It's one
that is so needed out in the world, from corporate
to entrepreneurs to be able to take some time, to
be able to take a moment to themselves and really
be mindful. It's changed my life, It's changed my relationships.

Speaker 2 (01:46:35):
I know it has for you.

Speaker 1 (01:46:37):
As I conclude the show, I always like to learn
about someone's mantra or maybe a statement or something that
is present for you today that kind of moves you
and drives you forward.

Speaker 4 (01:46:48):
Yeah, we talked about it earlier, but the idea of
wherever you go, there you are, I think has been
something it's really shut up for me throughout my life.
Because you can continue to change settings, you can continue
to mix things up on that front, you can change jobs,
you can move cities, whatever it is. But unless you're
doing the work internally, you're still going to run into

(01:47:10):
the same challenges. You're just going to show up a
little bit differently because your setting is going to be
a little bit different.

Speaker 3 (01:47:15):
So for me.

Speaker 4 (01:47:17):
Realizing that in slowing down and doing that work on
myself so that that wherever you go, there you are
is more of a positive thing rather than like there,
where you go, there you are like there's all your anxiety,
all of the OCD, all of these things are like
they're still there. But to be able to do that
work on yourself and realize that I can carry that

(01:47:38):
feeling with me when like yesterday I went and I
mentioned and just I did walk by the beach about
an hour and a half to clear my mind.

Speaker 3 (01:47:47):
The beach for me has been a huge source of
just calming.

Speaker 4 (01:47:52):
Whenever I'm stressed, I go there and I just sit
and I get perspective. But that feeling of the beach,
it's not the beach that's the feeling. It's the feeling
that's inside of me. So finding for you, like for
somebody listening to your beach is not maybe I could
be the beach for you, But there are things that

(01:48:12):
can help us access places within ourselves so that we
can find that piece and we can do a little
more reflecting on ourselves. So I love, like I said,
love going to beach, But that's all showing me something
that's inside and wherever you go, there you are.

Speaker 1 (01:48:31):
That's that's awesome. I love how you broke that down,
and of course for anybody who qualifies, I love that.
I love that for anybody who really aligns is really
you know, obviously that was a joke, but for anybody
who really aligns.

Speaker 2 (01:48:44):
With what you do.

Speaker 1 (01:48:46):
For the corporate owners out there, for managers, for people
that are looking for a new experience with their team.
Of course, this will all be in the show notes.
But how can people find you and learn more about
your programs, your retreats and your on sites.

Speaker 4 (01:49:00):
Our website is sand and Salt Escapes dot com, sandinsalt
Escapes dot com or I feel free, So you go
on there. You can learn a lot more about the retreats,
more about the off sites, more about our story, more
about our advisors. But if you also just want to
drop me a line directly, my email is Max at
sandansalt Escapes dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:49:20):
And that's really simple, keeping it simple. As I said, Max,
this has been awesome. I love it when I love
it way I love it when I have a guest
on it just it's just everything aligns right. So this
has been really really cool having you on today.

Speaker 2 (01:49:34):
Thanks so much for coming on.

Speaker 3 (01:49:36):
It's been an awesome conversation. Thanks so much for having
Mi Bael.

Speaker 1 (01:49:38):
Thank you for listening to the Michael Esposito Show. For
show notes, video clips, and more episodes go to Michael
Esposito Inc. Dot com backslash podcast. Thank you again to
our sponsor d ten Insurance Services helping businesses get the
right insurance for all their insurance needs. Visit Denten dot
io to get a quote. Do d E N T

(01:50:01):
N dot io and remember when you buy an insurance
policy from Denten, you're giving back on a global scale.
This episode was produced by Uncle Mike at the iHeart
Studios in Poughkeepsie. Special thanks to Lara Rodrian for the
opportunity and my team at Michaelsposito, Inc.

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