Hiding and Unhiding with Ruth Rathblott

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:21):
Hello all, my entrepreneurs and business leaders, and welcome to
the Michael Esposito Show, where I interview titans of industry
in order to inform, educate and inspire you to be great.
My guest today is a best selling author, an award
winning CEO who is committed to creating inclusion for all.

(00:41):
She speaks about her personal and professional journey through the
lens of someone with a visible disability and shares what
it's like to lead through a world crisis and live
life without limits or labels. Her TED talk is not
just another lecture of what you're not doing. It's an
invitation to look at where you may be hiding in

(01:04):
your life and opening the conversation for defining diversity differently.
She was honored as the youngest alum ever awarded the
Gouch the Goucher College Excellence in Public Service Award. In
twenty fourteen, she was given the Smart Ceo, Brava Award

(01:25):
and profiled as a CEO in the New York Times
Corner Office. She also received the Trailblazer Award from the
Community Resource Exchange and the Unsung Hero Award from the
Female Founder's Alliance, and she's a proud board member of
the Lucky Finn Project. She demonstrates the power of living

(01:49):
authentically and enables the recognition that our differences are our
greatest gift. Please welcome Ruth Rathblotma.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Thanks Michael. I'm excited to have this conversation with you today.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
Same here, same here. You know what I had meant
to ask you this. What does the MSW stand for?

Speaker 2 (02:11):
It is a Master's in Social Work. It's probably the
best degree I ever have gotten, and I will say
it's I encourage so many young people and people thinking
about what they are doing with their lives to get
a master's in social work because it's such a good
rounding of how we think about systems and how we
think about strengths. It's definitely probably one of the best

(02:35):
degrees and how we understand policy today. All these policies
that we are living with, where did they come from?
How did they affect people. How are they affecting people?

Speaker 1 (02:46):
In this master's in social work? Is this when you
were working in the non for profit sector that you
received it?

Speaker 2 (02:53):
No, I went after college. I was trying to figure
out what to do. And my mother was actually going
back to school and she was getting a master's in
social work from Columbia University. And I was watching her,
and what was amazing. My goal is I had wanted
to be a psychologist, and what I saw her doing
with her masters in social work is she was going

(03:13):
into the field right away. She was having clients right away,
Like it wasn't having to all do book learning and
then you get clients. It was a combination of your
book learning and your being with clients and your field practicum.
So I was between getting a doctor in psychology and
a master's of social work, and the Masters of social

(03:34):
work stuck. And I did that at Boston University and
thought I went there to be a clinical social worker,
seeing families and kids. Had my first internship in a
public school working with young people. Got a little bit
frustrated because you could work with young people, but then
you weren't necessarily working with their families in a school system,

(03:55):
so they were going home to some different environments and
you weren't able to change those. And so then I
spent my summer between those two years of graduate school
in getting my masters in Appalachia, and I came back
and I was working with women and female entrepreneurs and
young people. And I came back and thought, there's no

(04:17):
way that I want to be in an office for
fifty minutes listening to people. I want to be out
changing the world. And so I came back, got an
internship working for half the time was working for the
mass Committee for Children and Youth, and half the time
was working in a settlement house in Dorchester, Massachusetts and
running a girls group, and just it was the best

(04:40):
of both worlds, and I thought, this is what I
want to do. I don't necessarily want to be in
an office minutes.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
You did that for over twenty years. And I'm going
to kind of just jump a little ahead for our
listeners here, and there's a reason for it. We're going
to rewind and go back into your backstory and all that,
but I also think it's really important that we jump
ahead right now just so that our listeners can get
some context, because they can't see you, and so I

(05:09):
think it's really important that you share a little bit
about your story and the inspiration behind helping others, and
your book and your ted talk about being visible. And
I'm going to leave it to you to unveil what
you're making visible.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
Sure it's interesting. A few years ago, I was in
a conversation Michael about diversity and leadership, and I imagine
your listeners can resonate because this diversity is a big
topic these days, right DEI and B Now, belonging is
part of our daily conversations, some with controversy and some

(05:47):
with acceptance. And I was in this conversation and I
asked a very naive question as the leader. I said,
do you see me as diverse? And the answer back was, well,
you're a woman, and I identify as white female she
her pronouns heterosexual, so I'm probably not who you typically

(06:10):
think of when you think of diversity. And the answer
back from some people was well, yeah, you're a woman.
And I said, okay, yes, gender, check that box of
diversity correct. And I said, what about my disability? Michael,
I was born with a limbed difference. I was born
missing my left hand, and I when I asked that

(06:34):
question about my disability. People said back to me, oh, well,
I don't see you like that. And I said, I'm
not actually asking to be seen like anything. I'm asking
for it to be acknowledged as part of this diversity conversation.
And I got upset naturally because I didn't feel included
in the conversation. And what I realized was I hadn't

(06:57):
shared my journey with anyone about my disability in my workspace.
I hadn't talked to them about what it was like
to have a disability, what it was like to learn
how to accept a disability, and what was I guess
the other piece to this equation was I started to
reach out to my corporate partners, where I had done
a lot of fundraising. I'm in New York City, so

(07:18):
I'd done a lot of fundraising over those twenty five
years in the nonprofit world, and I was asking them,
how are they talking about diversity? And one of my
contacts invited me to come in and speak. And what
I realized was I didn't know if I had a
story to tell. And he said, oh, just come tell

(07:38):
your story like a lot of people do, right, And
I said, I don't really have a story. And he said, Ruth,
you told me that for twenty five years you hid
your hand, you didn't show it to anyone. That's a
story that you can tell. And I went in, Michael,
and you know, I'm in New York City, So anytime
anyone offers us a free car ride somewhere, even if

(07:59):
it's by blocks, we take it because it's like nice
to be in a car. We don't have car, We
don't drive here the same way other than Uber now.
And so I went down. I did it. And what
resonated this in my speech with people was two things.
One is people came up after and thanked me for
including disability both visible and then non apparent, the invisible

(08:23):
disabilities like mental health and neurodiversity in my speech and
what I was talking about because it doesn't get included
often in diversity talk. And I think the thing that
has probably stuck the most from that speech on and
now at companies like Facebook and Bloomberg and Barclay's is
this idea of hiding and that most of us are

(08:44):
hiding something. And so I've pivoted, for lack of a
better word, and started to tell my story with the
resonance that hiding is universal. Hiding is the problem that
many companies and many people are facing because we feel
like we have to fit into something. And so that's
the journey that I'm on now, is how do we

(09:06):
talk about hiding and AT's effects and how do we
learn to unhide? Because I went through that journey.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yeah, And I remember us talking on a zoom previously
where you were telling me about how you just kept
your hand in your pocket and nobody noticed, and I
am so shocked by that. I was wondering because as
we just talked about her earlier, I started watching your
TED talk that you did when we're going to definitely
dig into your TED talk, and then you in there

(09:33):
you were mentioning even dating and keeping your hand in
your pocket or unseen. And I'm just wondering. I'm thinking,
from my perspective right whether I'm dating or just seeing
somebody on a regular basis, did they maybe have some
sort of inkling or a conversation behind your back of Hey,
what's up with Ruth? Why does she always turn that way?

(09:54):
Or do you ever notice how her hand never comes
out of her pocket or any of that? And Ruth
is nodding, no. I I love the verbal response for me.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Now, yeah, I think you know, I don't know what
their conversations were behind my back.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
Right because they were behind I.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
I do know that I was really I got really
good at it. It was, you know, whether it was
hiding it in my pocket, wearing longer sleeves, like you know,
we're in winter right now, and I feel like winter
was always kind of my favorite time because you could
wear longer sleeves, bigger jackets, bigger pockets, mittens, you know,
like I didn't have to show it. I hit it

(10:32):
behind bags like so, yes, you're right. Like in relationship,
you feel like you notice things about people, especially if
you're physical with people in terms of touch, et cetera.
Like you would think someone people would notice. I think
there probably were, and yet I was so I guess
there's two parts. I was really good at hiding it

(10:52):
so that people wouldn't notice it, and I deflected a lot,
right And then I also, I think when we deflect,
we also build around ourselves so that people don't ask
and they don't think it's comfortable. What I came to
find out it's interesting when I was writing my book
is that I did have ask that question Michael about
to my college friends. I said, how come we'd never

(11:15):
talked about it? Like, how come we didn't go there
and talk about it? And there was the answer back
for many of them was there was a definite wall, ruth,
there was. That was something we learned we don't talk
about with you. And when my book came out, one
of my friends said, this was this gave us permission

(11:35):
to finally talk to you about it. Your book gave
us permission. And I think many of us are waiting
for sometimes that permission to be able to ask questions
that we know someone's dealing with, but we don't know
how to ask them. We don't know how to open
those conversations. And so by unhiding, it allows for the
connection with other people so they can ask questions. And

(11:55):
it also allows the internal connections so that you can
ask yourself the questions about how things, how what you're
hiding is holding you back.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
How do you think you would have responded? Howd they
have asked you in those college days?

Speaker 2 (12:11):
I you know, it's interesting. One of my friends I
remember in college, saw somebody with one hand at a
local playing pool. At a local bar and she said, oh,
do you want to go and talk to him? And
I said, absolutely not, No, I have zero interest. Why
are you even thinking I would? And That's what I'm

(12:31):
talking about in terms of the defense, right, Like I
was so defensive about it again internally and externally, so
I think if they had asked about it, it was
a non starter. Like I and I again, it sounds extreme,
but I think they're having done this work for the
last few years and hearing people's stories of what they're hiding.

(12:54):
It's not it's not alone. I'm not alone. And I
think oftentimes when we're hiding things, we think we're the
only ones hiding it. Whether it's a financial background, whether
it's the college that we didn't really go to, whether
it's or that we went to that we didn't get
such good grade debt, the way we left our last job, Michael,
the way we didn't get promoted, the things that those

(13:15):
things that we don't want to share with people because
we're afraid of judgment and rejection.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
And I asked that question because what you talk about
is to be seen, and from the side that I'm
coming from is how can I see you right? How
can I start a conversation and if I do, how
is it received? Am I pushing too much, too fast,

(13:44):
too soon? Are you ready to respond? A lot of
questions there, But I'm kind of just laying the groundwork
for the idea of when, especially with what's going on
in our society today with gender equality and everything in
that space of if the person's not ready to speak
about it, is it right to ask them about it?

Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, I think it's It's an interesting fine line and
an interesting path to navigate. I think that I'm it's
I think so I'm someone who likes to talk about
it now, right, And so it's understanding where people are
on their journey. I do think I have asked people
about their disabilities and differences over the last few years,

(14:30):
and I respect when people don't want to talk about it, right.
It's about understanding that there are boundaries that somebody may
have or where they are on their own journey of difference,
and so I think it's okay to ask. But I
ask people to think about is it coming out of
a place of kindness? Is it coming out of a

(14:50):
place of support, Because curiosity without kindness and support isn't
really curiosity. It's just wanting to know something, but is
it curiosity with kindness and support? And then, Michael, I
think the other differential is are you willing to share
something that's different about you? Are you willing to be vulnerable?

(15:12):
Are you willing to have a conversation? Because if you're
only asking because you want to know something about somebody
and to support them, but you're not willing to be
vulnerable yourself and share something about yourself, then you really
then it's not really a conversation. And that's where I
spend a lot of my time is working with leaders
to model that because we often and I'm sure you've

(15:35):
seen kind of the popular topic right now is oh,
we want you to bring your authentic self to work.
We want you to bring you know that that piece,
and we're not really actually set up for people to
bring their authentic selves to work.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
You don't And maybe we might want to put an
asterisk next to that, right, like maybe we don't want.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
I really want it, right, And yet the people who
are asking us to do that are not actually even
willing to do that themselves. I had a company recently
who said we want you to come in and speak
and I said, okay, So what would success like when
I went through my conversation, So, so what would success
look like at the end of this sixty minute talk,
like tell me my keynote what you wanted to look

(16:15):
like at the end. And people walk away with and
they said it would be great if everybody in the
audience unhid something about themselves. And I said, absolutely not,
we are This is not the Jerry Springer show. This
is not like we are not this is this is
a first step in the conversation because they're hiding again
has a history. Often it's painful, it has ramifications potentially

(16:41):
that of what people will think about you in terms
of judging you and rejecting you, and there's fear. And
then I said, unless the CEO is willing to go first,
they set the model and the tone for culture. They
set this psychological safe space, because it's not psychologic be
safe to unhide if you don't have the parameters in place,

(17:04):
if you don't have the leaders going first and willing
to do that. And so I said, no, like there
was I mean, I did my keynote right, but I said,
that's it's not safe for people. And so there's an
element of safety that also comes with why we're asking
and how we're asking and being okay when people don't
want to go there.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
I think it's important for us to go back to
that whole why you're asking because that answers a lot
of the questions. Is that if you are self aware
while you're asking and are asking yourself some of these
questions first, that might get to the point of okay,
maybe I should hold off on my question, or no,
this is a valid question, or.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
Am I right? Am I asking out of support because
I'm looking to help someone out of kindness? Listen, I
was crossing the street just two days ago and there
was a woman Michael, who was not going to make
it across the street. She was an elderly woman who
was using a walker, and there were eight seconds flashing
on the screen and I was like, oh, she's not

(18:09):
even like a quarterway across the Amsterdam Avenue in New York.
And two people were looking at her and we were
like what do we do? Like how do we get
her across the street? Like how do we move her?
And it's down down to seven six and she's not
even half way across, and I'm like, and my heart's
going and I hadn't noticed her at first. I had
watched these two people looking at something. So I turned

(18:31):
and one of the people went and it went to
her and said can I help you across the street,
and she batted him off. She's like, no, I don't
need your help. And I think I tell that to
you because two things. One is I think sometimes we
make assumptions about people, right, and what they're capable of.

(18:55):
This woman probably she's got the time lighting timed, like
she knows how how it's going to get her across
the street. Like she's got it. This is like this
is her thing. I think that's what my assumption was.
Again another assumption. But she didn't want to be helped.
And I think sometimes we ask we want people to
be okay, so we off we make assumptions about how

(19:16):
we can support them without actually asking them. Right, So
there's that. What I didn't realize is that the other
woman wanted to help her because her shoelace, this elderly
woman's shoelace was undone. She's like, she's not she's going
to trip over herself. Like it's not even a mouth
that she can't make it across the light. It's her shoelace,
And again it's observing sometimes like why are we helping people? Right?

(19:40):
Why are what is the full context of what this is?
It wasn't just because she was using a walker. It
was because her shoelace was untied. And we all know
what happens when we trip over our feet, like when
our shoelace isn't done, and it's annoying, and so it's
sometimes it's just gathering information before you make an assumption
about some one and thinking about, to your point, what

(20:03):
am I? What do I know so far? How can
I am I asking? Am I helping out of kindness?
Am I helping out of support? And when I want
the same done to me? Like what does that look like?

Speaker 1 (20:14):
I think that's a good That's a good way to
frame it for all of us. I'm I'm really curious
right now on because of this topic of conversation and
when you were asking about sharing something of vulnerability or something.
So I'm very open about something that happened to me
a long time ago, back in two thousand and four,
I had a skiing accident, and so I just I'm

(20:36):
interested in your perspective on how this this is viewed.
So is this viewed as like, so I'm showing I'm
showing Ruth my arm, my right shoulder was dislocated and fractured,
and so therefore my uh it was when it was dislocated,
it was done so badly that all my nerve endings tore,
and so therefore I don't grow any muscle there. So

(20:56):
it's really just a bone. And it was limiting in
the beginning because I'd have to overcompensate and I'd get
some really bad next strains I've been put on. I've
had to go to the I guess to the doctors
or emergency room because the strain was so bad at
times where I was frozen in a certain position, and

(21:18):
so I had to get put on some really serious
painkillers miswork because of it. So I am just interested
because I've never perceived myself as disabled. I would never,
I guess, identify myself as that. But I am interested
from your perspective as since you do so such work
with people in this mat in this capacity.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, I think you know. Listen, I think I think
there's a couple of things I want I am reacting to.
So first, thank you for sharing that, because I think
it allows me to get to know you better, right,
and it allows me to get to know something about
you so that there's a connection, right, because when we
share parts of ourselves, we connect with people like they
get to know, hey, you're not quote unquote perfect, right,

(22:00):
it's a part of you that is perfect, but it's
part of you that also probably at times has felt
imperfect so.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
Very often.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
So that allows us to kind of relax our shoulders
and actually have conversation rather than, oh my god, I
have to prove to you that I'm smart, I have
to prove to you that I'm together. Like, we allow
each other the space then to really connect and that's
the beauty of sharing. So thank you for sharing with Michael.
And I think your audience will appreciate it too, because

(22:30):
I think we all have those pieces of ourselves that
we feel like we've had to overcompensate around. We've had
to overachieve, We've had to figure out things on how
we're going to do it and struggled through some things
and succeeded through some things that maybe we don't always
share out right, So there's that piece. I think it's
also helpful because it allows people to support you in

(22:53):
different ways, right, If you're missing work and people don't
know about what's happened to you, they might they might
make assumptions. I might even argue they will make assumptions
about performance, like, oh, well, Michael's just not coming in.
What he just he's a slacker, he doesn't he's not
into this job? Oh his why is he on pain medication?
Is he a drug addict? Like we start to make

(23:15):
up stories when we don't have information. So there's that
piece and then the question you asked about disability. I
think disability is is a journey. I think that it
is part of an identity that I took me a
while to get to. For myself, I think it is
how it's for me. It's not about something I don't have.

(23:38):
It's actually about a community that I do have now
and I understand how I get strength. I understand that
I've had challenges, I've understood I understand things in a
different way. And it's a shared community. So I have
shared experiences with people because of it. I leave it
to everyone on how they I don't determine who identify

(24:00):
is how. And it's funny. I was in a conversation
recently with someone who said, why do you always talk
about your limb difference when you're talking about disability. And
I said, well, I actually use both terms. I say
I have a limb difference my hand, and I also
I have a disability. There I use the words to

(24:21):
describe part of my identity. And this person said, I
wish you would stop saying limb difference and I said why,
and he said, well, it takes away from the disability
community and the strength because you're partializing out or portioning
out part of your identity. And it's funny. Someone today
posted and the reason it is topical is somebody posted

(24:42):
today saying, let people identify, self identify however they want
to self identify, stop telling them how to identify. And
so I tell you that in terms of it's wherever
you are on this journey, and if you don't see
as a disability, it's not for you right now. I

(25:02):
do think that at some point all of us will
be affected by disability in some manner, whether we're born
with it, whether we acquire one, or if we're taking
care of somebody with the disability. So disability will impact
all of our lives.

Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah, it's it's it's interesting i've I think I know
I've spoken about it on my podcast. I almost know,
I almost know. I can't be quite certain about speaking
about my shoulder injury on my podcast, but it's something
I do speak about openly. But to your point, it
is interesting when you brought up the work thing, because
I did lie to work about my injury. I didn't

(25:38):
tell them it was because of this shoulder that when
I moved this, you know, I got hurt. I don't
know if there was any shame in it. I think
it was just maybe a feeling of nobody's really going
to understand what I'm saying, and also maybe this is
I guess this would go in the bucket of shame
of I don't want anybody saying, oh, poor me, right
like it's right. I guess that would go in that bucket.

(26:00):
But it is something that I do hide as best
as I can, in the sense of like in pictures,
I always make sure that I get photographed on my
with my left shoulder pointing at facing out. I will
move when I have guests come here actually to the show,
if they are on my other side, I'll say, I
don't know, switch sides with me, and I'll mention why.

(26:20):
But still for me, it's something that when I look
in the mirror, it always bothers me.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, it's something that you're it sounds like that you're
self conscious about a very Yeah. The challenge is that
we often think we're the only ones. Like maybe days
that you're like, oh, the shoulder, I got to move.
Each of us this is where it's universal. Each of
us has something where we feel that way about ourselves. Yes,

(26:47):
it's not always physical. It often is not. It's it
could be something. Again. I've had people un high to
me about their financial situations and you're saying, well, that's
not as bad as my shoulder. Well for them it is.
They're like, oh, I'm in debt, yet I'm showing off
that I have. You know, I have all the best
stuff I have. People tell me about their education levels,

(27:09):
their sexual orientation, their marital status, their childless status, their
children's status. I mean, the list goes on mental health.
And so what happens, though, is when we think we're
the only ones, then we we do those things right
to navigate so that people either we control the situation

(27:30):
and there's certainty in that. And I guess the other
thing is we think, and maybe it's true that we're
making people comfortable if we don't show that part of ourselves, right,
Like there's a discomfort when we have to say, oh
my god, what happened. Oh, Oh, I'm so sorry. I
didn't know you weren't financial that. Oh I didn't know
you had a skiing ax o. I didn't know that
your shoulder, all those people like I didn't know about

(27:51):
your hand. And then we don't want to be pitied, right,
so we make it comfortable for other people to not
have to deal with it, so we move speace of it.

Speaker 1 (28:02):
Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that and allowing me the
space to share that. Another part that you talk about
is neurodiversity, and that's one that I have spoken very
openly about on my podcast, which is about my dyslexia
and having issues there with reading. And in fact, I
had a guest on where I was reading her bio

(28:24):
as I did for you, and there was a word there.
I can't remember which word it was, but there was
a word there that was a fairly common word, a
little bit more high level, but a fairly common word,
one that I normally wouldn't have any issues with, but
on air. As recording it, I couldn't say the word
and I was having trouble sounding it out, and so
I said, I said on Mike, I said, I think

(28:46):
this word is spelled wrong. And I put the paper
down and I looked at her across the table she
was here in studio, and she goes, no, I don't
think so. And I looked at the word again. She
said the word out loud and I said, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,
and I read it and I said, oh, we need
to do that over again, and she goes, no, keep it.
And I was like, you know what, You're right, we
should keep it. Because if I speak about this lexia,
I mean, this is happening in the moment, like this

(29:08):
literally happened right right, And.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
So how do we have to make everything look perfect?

Speaker 1 (29:13):
Perfect right?

Speaker 2 (29:14):
Perfect? Like that's the life thing here is our imperfections
are our perfections? Like that is the goal here. And
I think, you know, when it comes back to your
podcast and also your listeners, Like I think about entrepreneurship,
I think about leadership, and as leaders, I mean I
adopted a very old school leadership mentality. Michael. I thought

(29:39):
to be a leader, you had to be perfect you
had to have all the answers, you had to keep
people at arm's length. Like that was the way that
I operated. And I think there was probably a small
portion of people that that really worked for, by the way,
who liked that too, because they were probably hiding also
like they liked the distance that And again, I'm not
advocating for Jerry's pre moments or like, tell all, I'm

(30:01):
talking about how do we connect as humans? How do
we engage so that people feel comfortable when we're supporting
them in our team to come to us to say, wow,
they're not perfect, Like how do I connect with them
or our customers or our clients, Like how do we
actually because I'm hiding, is about connection. That's to this
whole thing. And you know, we have a serious loneliness

(30:25):
epidemic going on right now where we feel like we
don't belong, we feel like we're disconnected. So what's the
antetope for that? And I believe it's just like what
you just shared, which is I'm going to tell you
about two things about personal about myself so that I
become human, Like it's about humanity, right and me telling

(30:45):
my story. My my hand is not that important to you.
But what's important, I imagine, is me talking about how
I've hidden it and like what it meant to me
to hide it, and like how I overcame that by
letting people in and what that looks, what that journey
look like.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
Yeah, and I'd like to go to that journey. As
I mentioned to you, I was watching your Ted talk
and I didn't get to the end yet, and yes,
I can't wait to watch it, and I will. So
she has a wonderful Ted X talk where she speaks
about her experience of hiding her hand, and I didn't
get to the unveiling yet, so spoiler alert everyone if

(31:22):
you're about to watch the Ted talk. But in that
you were talking about different ways that you hit it,
and one of them is, you know, you're working for
a office and you're cutting things and you didn't cut
it right, and they were really upset with you, and
they really were degrading. And yet instead of maybe showing
them and saying, hey, look, here's why, you went and
hit in a basement and found a better way to

(31:44):
cut the paper. And you have several stories in there
that you share about how you hit it, and I'd
love if you can just maybe expand on that into
what you talk about and that of unhiding.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
Yeah, no, it's it's interesting. I think I got a
message from that that the conversation that it wasn't a
safe place to share about my hand. So, and I
think oftentimes when we get a message that something's not
safe or that we're not comfortable, we overcompensate and we

(32:17):
figure things out.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
Right.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
So I started to stay later so that people weren't
around and I could get things done. I went down
to the basement, to your point, and found a place
where I could get it done. I also huge used
huge lawbooks to hold down the paper so it wouldn't move,
because if you've ever tried to cut a piece of
paper with one hand, it doesn't work out well. I
can just tell I've used to do it in person

(32:40):
and audiences and somebody cut their pants one time, like
trying to do it by that activity.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
From an emotional standpoint, in that moment, where were you emotionally?
Did you ever break down and cry? Did you ever
have a breakdown in that moment?

Speaker 2 (32:54):
No, I was more embarrassed, and the embarrassment propelled me
to do well. I had two schools of thought. One
was I quit this internship, Like, I just leave because
this doesn't feel right and I can't do it. And
that wasn't my style. So I had to figure out
other things to do. I had to be creative and
think about how to how to overcompensate, how to overachieve,

(33:17):
because I was an overachiever and I liked gold stars
and I liked straight a's like I liked that mentality
and so and I like to be good and by
you know, I it's funny when I tell that story,
people get really upset at the boss, right, Like they
get really upset because why would he he asked me?
And if you haven't seen the Ted Talk, watch it

(33:39):
because it's good, is the idea, And I don't say
that because of me. Yeah, this scenario is good in
the sense that he asked me if I went to kindergarten.
That was the way he opened the conversation about my poor,
my poor work performance, and he didn't let me finish.
And even I couldn't even in that moment think about
who my kindergarten teacher's name was. I wasn't college Michael,

(34:00):
so I knew I went to kindergarten. I'm like, wait,
what And I left his office because what he said
was if you would if you had gone to kindergarten,
you would have learned how to use scissors. And I
left his office totally embarrassed. And people get mad at
his character and what I say to them when I

(34:22):
when they get mad and tell me I hate that
guy is I say, but he didn't know? And they say, yeah,
but he could have been nicer. I said, absolutely, So
how is a manager? Are you being that guy? Right?
What are the assumptions that we make about our employees
when they're ten minutes late? And I was a time
watcher when I was a manager, so I get it, Like,
what are the assumptions that we make about people like

(34:43):
you missing work because of your shoulder accident?

Speaker 1 (34:46):
Right?

Speaker 2 (34:46):
Like? What? How do we actually pause for a second
Because we're so focused on performance and productivity, we forget
about people as managers. So I say, he didn't know,
So that's not my that was not his fault. What
he could have said is what's going on? He could
have paused the situation and slowed it down and said,

(35:08):
I'm wondering, this doesn't seem like you're kind of work,
So what's happening and created that space. And I might
not have told him because I was so buried deep
in hiding, but I would have known it was a
safe place that when I was ready, I could have
come back to you know what I mean? And I
say that and I share that story because I think again,
as managers, we jumped to conclusions. Sometimes as team members,

(35:30):
we jumped to conclusions. As clients and customers, we jumped
to conclusions, and we forget to sometimes just slow down
and ask questions that we would want to be asked
if people were making assumptions about us. And I think
it is a I don't know that I ever cried
about it. I don't think that happened until much later

(35:51):
in my life, like about the sadness, about the grief
of not having a hand dealing with it for so
long the way I did. But I do remember the
embarrassment and that kind of upset, being upset like that
somebody would challenge me like that and think I wasn't
smart enough or I couldn't do so.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah, I asked it from the emotional part, because you know,
I think that that you know, there's some I know
with me and my injury. I had that emotional I
guess breakdown enough sorts. I had the anxiety in the
beginning of I'm never gonna have my shoulder again, and
I remember those feelings. The term that kind of kind

(36:36):
of makes sense to me a little bit is that
phantom feeling, that phantom right where I would have that
you know, weird phantom. Oh, And then it was like,
oh no, I don't have that muscle. And it took
me a long time to be able to lift my
arm up in like normal ways and what we know
as normal ways. And I played basketball and it's my
right shoulder, and so I couldn't play basketball the way

(36:58):
I once did. I now do, but I have to
strengthen my other shoulder muscles in order for me to
be able to continuously play the way that I want
to play. But I do remember having that moment of
like just being really upset, and I think that that
came from a victim place as well. And so I'm
interested in the we're going to get to the Ted

(37:20):
talk stories, of course, but while we're here, in the
idea of gratitude for everything else, I'm interested in your
philosophy on that.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
In terms of gratitude for the way that life has happened.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
Is that what you're thinking about and what we do
have and what happens for us.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
It's definitely a journey of acceptance, right And I think
you know the Maslow was brilliant in his hierarchy of
needs because self acceptance is at the top of it.
And I think when you can get there, to a
place of really accepting yourself, the gratitude comes with it.
I am grateful, Michael that I have my hand the

(38:00):
way I do, like it has connected me to people
in ways that probably most of your listeners can't imagine, right, Like,
I get to connect with people on a very different
level because I actually find people fascinating and their journeys
of what they're hiding and they're unhiding. I am type
of person and I think I may have shared this

(38:20):
with you before. I'm the type of person when I
got a get on an airplane and there's only a
few of us out there. When I get on an airplane,
I'm excited to see who I sit next to.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
Like, oh, yes, he did tell me this.

Speaker 2 (38:32):
I do not put my EarPods in, I don't put
my sunglasses on, hoodie on, like I don't do any
of that. I am excited to see who I'm sitting
next to you, because there's a story. And I have
met some incredible people on planes who have stories that
are I mean, I remember it wasn't so long ago,
if it was within the last year. I was sitting
next to somebody, and you know, you get to the

(38:53):
chit chat of oh, what do you do? What do
you do? And I he was telling me about his
graphic design business, and he said, well what do you do?
And I said, oh, I talk about hiding and that
most of us are hiding something and how do we
learn to unhide? And he immediately dropped his head. And
that's tell for me. I'm like, okay, what are you hiding?

(39:15):
And he said, I never went to college and I
never tell anyone that. And I said why And he said,
because I'm so afraid that people will not think I'm
smart enough. They won't think I know how to run
a business. And yet I have this successful graphic design business.
But I don't want to tell people. And he said,
when that conversation about college comes up, all I want

(39:35):
to do is leave the room. Like that same metaphor
of you turning yourself when you have a guest. That's
what his feeling is about leaving the room, Like he
wants to leave the room, and yet it holds us
back because then we're afraid someone's going to find out
at some point. It's like a bad episode of the
show suits Like, it's like it's the idea that we're
going to be found out and something bad is going

(39:58):
to happen. People are going to reject us, They're going
to to judge us will not be able to survive. Yeah,
and it connects us to people when they do share,
because then when I told him my story, he was like,
oh my god, I thought I was the only one
that was hiding. I'm like, no, No, hiding is universal.
The challenge with hiding is that it's exhausting and it's lonely.

(40:19):
So when you ask about gratitude, I am grateful that
I'm not hiding in my life anymore.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
Yeah, it's so true with what you're saying about being
what was it true to yourself or really accepting yourself?
And you know, for me, as I've gone on my
self discovery journey, the more that I've learned to accept
myself for all of my flaws and goodness too. I
think that that's also very important. You know, we think

(40:48):
that by being humble, it means to just degrade ourselves
and speak about our flaws, but also it's also good
to acknowledge what we are good at and our strengths
as well, to acknowledge those and be grateful for those
as well. And to your point, go ahead, sorry, no,
please go ahead, But I was just gonna say, to
your point is that when I, you know, I have

(41:10):
gone through that what we're talking about right now, I'm like, oh,
it almost it makes life so much easier. And it's like,
really that that's it, Like I don't need it, and
then you almost you don't need anything else. It's like
I used to speak to my coach about a new
car all the time. I used to talk to her
about it. I say, I got to get a new car.
I got to get what does it mean for you?

(41:30):
What does it mean for you? It means success, It
means I made it. It means I'm earning money, it
means all these different things. And you know, as we continued,
and I still I still want a new car, but
it's for different reasons. Now it's just more because like
that car is really old and has a lot of problems.
But when I through the self discovery and self acceptance,
it's like that, what do I care? I don't need

(41:51):
a new car. I'm good, Like there's so much more
to life.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
There's so much more to life. And I think you
start to see the things that you've been challenged with
as gifts. Right, there's gratitude and because then you understand like, hey,
it's slowing me down for a reason, Like I almost
don't want to fully accept things because I don't want
any other things to be challenged by, Like I'm good,
Like this is good. I'm good, like I want to
underthink I'm good and I but I will say my

(42:19):
hand is definitely my greatest gift.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
Yeah for sure. Yeah, And I was given And in
that gratitude that you're talking about of accepting and everything
you I want to get back to your ted talk here,
you started accepting it and realizing that it was probably
time to start sharing. And I'd love if you can
get into that, because what we're talking about, what you're

(42:42):
talking about, and we're talking about, but what you're you're
saying in the beginning here is that that unhiding. Right,
So we have to be able to be true to
ourselves and be able to come out. How do we
do it right? Like, how do we build the strength
to do? But when is the right time? Where is
the right place? And your your story really tells that Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
No, it's I realized. I say yeah, no a lot.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
It happens in interviews. It's all good. We don't have
to be so polished in interviews. You know, two professional
speakers here, we could say our ums hiding.

Speaker 2 (43:23):
There's enough. I'm hiding is a journey, and so I
don't want to leave any of your listeners also thinking
that it's an overnight process either, Michael, because it's not.
It's a it's a journey. And what I've started to
delineate and I do this when I speak now, and
it's also in my book single Handedly is it's a journey.
And I look at it as four steps. The first

(43:46):
step is how do you acknowledge it to yourself? Right?
How do you acknowledge that you're hiding your shoulder? How
do you acknowledge how it's holding you back from connecting
with people? How do you How did my hand not
let me feel like I could keep living and doing
the things I wanted, because it stopped me from doing
a lot of the things that I loved doing because

(44:07):
I was afraid that people. Again, I go back to
fear of rejection and judgment. So that first step becomes,
how do we acknowledge what it is that we're hiding
to ourselves. Whether you do it through therapy, whether you
do it through journaling, whether you do it through just
taking some introspection time on your own meditation, however you

(44:28):
get there, it's about the idea of awareness. How do
you acknowledge what it is? That's the first step, And
then the second step becomes, how do you find your
person to tell that this is what you're dealing with?
And I imagine with you and your listeners when I
say that second step of finding your person to tell,

(44:48):
there's a go to person that comes into your head, Right,
that's somebody that you would tell, whether it's a best friend,
whether it's a family member, a coworker, a manager, or
someone in hr somebody that is your go to that
you're willing to share, Hey, this is what I'm hiding
and how it's affecting my relationships, how it's affecting my work.

(45:10):
I often spend a lot of time in the corporate space,
so a lot of what I do is talk about work,
how it affects you and your work. And so it's
that go to person that becomes your person that you
tell about it that can help you start to uncover
the things that or and discover some of the things
that you may not have right in the stories that

(45:30):
you've told yourself, because oftentimes when we have been in
hiding and taught and not sharing part of ourselves with people,
we tell ourselves these stories that we are convinced or true.
I was convinced that my hand was awful to look at.
I was convinced that people would reject me if they
saw my hand, and it was so disgusting and awful

(45:53):
that I actually wouldn't even show it to a therapist
at one point for weeks. And so what that finding
that person does It starts to dispel the things that
you're hiding, and it starts to challenge some of the truths.
And so there's a journaling activity and that I do
with people around what is it, who is that that
person for you? What characteristics would you want them to have?

(46:16):
If you don't if that go to doesn't come to mind?
What is it that does? The third thing in the
third step becomes how do you start to build your
community around others who have shared experiences with what it
is that you're hiding, And so that becomes you know,
that's as easy right now on the Internet as a
Google search. It also can be a meetup. It can

(46:38):
also just be telling a few friends. And at this
step I also think about the privilege that I have
because my hand, my limb difference, I was able to
find a supportive community. And yet, Michael, in twenty twenty four,
when we're recording this, there are still groups of people
who aren't safe to tell their story to people right

(46:59):
to build their community. There's still there's still struggling. And
so it's just finding a few people. It doesn't mean
having to, you know, post something on Facebook and hope
that people get, you know, find you. It's just finding
you those people, a small group of people a community.
And then the fourth step, so after you've acknowledged it

(47:19):
and you've raised awareness for yourself, you've invited somebody in
to help you, and the third step of building your community,
that fourth step becomes sharing your story out loud. And
it doesn't have to be like what you and I
do of getting on stage and telling the world your story.
It can be just a few close people. But what
that does is it allows people to see themselves in you.

(47:43):
So I had a young woman that I was talking
to and she said, Ruth, I went to this company
retreat and I told them about my anxiety issues because
I wanted them to know me better and I wanted
them to, you know, get to know me and not
have make aus ssumptions about my behavior at work, et cetera.
And afterward people came up and they thanked me for

(48:06):
sharing that, and she said, what was amazing is a
guy came up to me after that and he said,
thank you so much for telling me telling us your story.
He said, because I'm on my own journey with ADHD
and I don't know how to tell people, and you've
given me a glimpse into how what it can feel
like and how supportive this community is. You made it

(48:27):
okay to actually tell my story. And I'm like, that's
the power of sharing your story. And so this becomes
almost like a flywheel or a loop that then other
people then start to think about what is it that
I'm hiding, Oh, who is my person? Like it becomes
this whole loop of connection. And that's the gift. And
that's what I hope that your listeners are taking away

(48:48):
from it too, is like, because it's not about my
hand or your shoulder or the guy with the that
didn't go to college. It's the idea of, Wow, what
is it that I'm hiding so that I can thrive
and I can belong Like I feel different about my life. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
I like the fact that you bring up connection because
that's how I've always felt about mine, is there's been
a connection for me of wheening. You know, I wear
a tank top when I play basketball, you know, so
I've played basketball shirtless in the park, and so I
don't hide it, and I welcome when people ask me
what happened. I had a guy actually, who is an

(49:25):
er doctor who I play with. He stopped a game
when he first got to know me. He didn't know.
He stopped the game because he thought that I had
just dislocated my shoulder because of its appearance. And I said,
oh no, no, my should That was years ago, and
I told him. So. I love this conversation because it's
gone to the point where what you're talking about, which
is what I was once. I don't think I ever

(49:48):
was hiding it to the degree that you talk about
with your hand. But what I want to share is
that it has connected me. People see it and they
ask me about it, and we talk about it, and
it does there is a connection. And I mean my
Sunday crew who I play basketball with. No they tease
me about this, but it's welcomed. For my free throw shooting,

(50:10):
I do a little shimmy, and that shimmy is to
adjust my shoulder because of the way it is, it
needs to be adjusted before I shoot. So I always
do a little shimmy with my shoulder and so they
all know, they go, oh, too many shimmies. If I
miss that, they'll tease me like, oh, he did too
many shimmy's shimmies. So it has to your point, it
has a connection to it. And I also love the

(50:32):
fact of what you're sharing in that when you're unhiding
by by taking this being vulnerable and taking this veil off,
you allow for other people to be vulnerable too, and
they get to share with you what they're hiding, and
there's an empowerment that happens. And so you mentioned about

(50:53):
us speaking on stages, and there's a reason why we
do it, and we're gonna I'm gonna throw this back
to you in a second. I know, for me, I
have a story that I want to share. I'm not
ready to share the story yet because it hasn't come
full circle to where it's in a safe place to
share it. But there are a few people in my

(51:13):
small circle, and to your point of this, there's a
few people that you can share it with that I
have shared it with, and it's given me the power
to be able to push through the anxieties and distress
and the judgment that you brought up in that when
I was able to share it with these trusted people,
family members, my spouse. When I was able to share it,

(51:34):
and I remember the fear that I had prior to
sharing it. I was whitefaced and totally scared, like life
and death were as close as I can describe the fear.
And when I, to your point, unveiled it and shared it,
it's now a power that I have that I know

(51:57):
is a story that I must share with our community
because I'm not the only one experiencing it and there
are so many others who are hiding it. There's no
doubt about it because of what it is and the
level of attention it receives in other places that I
under that, I know that other people are dealing with it,

(52:17):
and so my goal is to be able to share
that story to empower others. And so I go back
to you now with your story and how you get
up on the ted stage and how you write books,
and you're writing another book, and I mean your book
is single handed, right like you're acknowledging this And where
I'm going now for you is the purpose, the drive

(52:41):
behind your message.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Yeah, no, thank you for sharing it. And I can't
wait for your story to get out to the world
because I think that is what the goal of unhiding.
And Michael, when I'm building an unhiding institute right now,
which has a research component, it has the media component,
it has the speaking component to it, and I would
love to invite you to be an Unhiding ambassador at

(53:06):
some point because that is truly that's the gift, right
because it's about connection, it's about feeling less lonely. It's
about the empowerment that someone else can get from our stories.
That's why we do what we do. I think it's interesting.
I had so many things as you were talking, because
there is in our space. When you share parts of yourselves,

(53:30):
you become unforgettable. Right, So when I was hiding, I
was forgettable. People kind of were like, oh, Okay, she's
that person that does what that. When I unhide and
people know my hand, they know that's part of me,
but it's also something they can't forget, Like they're like,
oh wait, she's the one. And in our speaking business,
we want to be the people that people don't forget, right,

(53:53):
Like that's a goal. So I am. That's a proud
moment for me. I think my north star and what
I'm really shooting for, like what keeps what wakes me
up every day is I want to create a place,
and especially a workplace, where there's an unhiding manifesto that

(54:14):
we value different experiences, we value different perspectives here, we
value difference. And that's what un hiding becomes. That if
there's a safe place to bring your best self to work,
not your authentic self, but your best self. So how
do we support that? And I was on a panel
yesterday and someone said, rather than us talking about dei

(54:36):
and deib and all that. How come we're not talking
about humanity? And I really loved that because I'm like,
how do we talk about humanity with creating places where
people can unhide and feel safe to unhide? Because that's
what we all want. We don't want to walk around
thinking that we're the only one hiding, with all of
that fear and that judgment and all that self talk

(54:58):
that we do too. It's lonely. We want connection, that's
what we're craving. So how do we create spaces for connection?
And that's what unhiding is for me. It's a bridge
to connection.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
Hiding, no, please go.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
No, hiding is the problem. And it's funny. I've had
different people say, like, start with the problem, Like the
problem is hiding. So let's look at hiding as the problem.
It affects our retention, it affects our engagement, it affects
the innovation that we should I wasn't my full self
when I was hiding. And I know the different people
I've talked to over time, it holds them back what

(55:35):
they're hiding. So hiding becomes this problem, this workplace problem,
this entrepreneurial problem, unhiding becomes a bridge to the solution
because what we're all looking for is connection. So that's
the goal.

Speaker 1 (55:48):
And I was thinking with your goal there and how
it goes even deeper. Now you made me think about
it with some recent interactions I've had and something I've
seen recently, a post that I saw recently, and that
when we also look at what happens in urban settings
and gangs and uh, we see where I'm going here

(56:09):
with this, A lot of that is hiding, right, It's
hiding when you know I So I started a podcast
with a a non for profit in our community called
Family Services, and the podcast is created for the kids
that that go there and they show up to the
podcast studio. And it was when I first when I

(56:31):
was first meeting with them, it was you know, what
do you want to talk about? And it was like, oh,
maybe maybe they're going to want to talk about sports
or whatever. And it actually got a lot deeper. It
got into bullying, It got into being homeless, It got
into some serious things that I was not expecting. And
they are they are unhiding, right, they're sharing these stories,

(56:53):
but it's what I'm what I'm sharing that's interesting about
it is from from from the first view of them.
They have their joy on, they got their cool trendy
jeans on, they got the trendy outfit on. You know,
these are sixth graders and seventh graders. These are thirteen
year olds images everything, and you know, so I see
them at first, I'm like, oh, cool, Like, you know,
these kids must be the ones in this urban setting.

(57:16):
It's a in an area that it's mostly Section eight
housing and of lower lower means, and I'm like, oh,
these must be the ones that actually have higher means
that are doing all right for themselves. Yeah, they're showing
up to this building, so this is I'm curious, like
what's going on here? And one of the girls said
something about homelessness and we can't be any more homeless
than we already are. She said, that's literally what she said.

(57:37):
I haven't forgotten that, and just thinking about how they're
hiding behind this image of I'm all right. I got
Jordan's on, and as I was looking at you know,
the next meeting that I had with them, I was like,
I want to look a little bit deeper. And it
wasn't too unhide them because I didn't say anything out loud.
It was just for my own knowledge. I was looking

(57:59):
at the Jordan's. I was like, but how are they
affording these Jordans because these are like two hundred dollars
sneakers And I'm looking at them, and I have a
Jordan collection of my own, and I had been gifted
a pair of Jordans that I was unsure about Jordan's.
And we're talking about Michael Jordan sneakers here and so anyway,
so I know how to how to find them. And
so when I when we went back into studio and

(58:20):
I was looking at them, and I was looking at
her Jordans, and I went, ah, okay, so they all
have Jordans on. But they're also all not real and
this isn't the important part for them. The image is
important because at least portrays a certain image for them,
but they're hiding behind it. And where I'm digging a
little bit deeper here of the importance of this in
our conversation is that while the girls talking about bullying,

(58:44):
the bullying comes out of people trying to show that
they are stronger than what they're having experiencing at home,
that they have more than what they're experiencing at home
and taking it out in these alternate ways.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
Absolutely, and I think they're There's a couple of things
that I also want to pull out a little bit
from what you're saying, because I worked with young people
for twenty five years of my career, Like that's where
I spent most of my time is working with young people.
And I think the first piece is there's a very
healthy part of development of individuation from your parents and
fitting in with your tea, with your group, right with

(59:20):
your That's a very healthy adolescent development. Erickson's talked about it,
for I talked about it. Everyone has talked about that
stage of individuation and how do we I think working
with young people from low resourced communities and underresourced communities,

(59:41):
I think there is a continued and high pressure to
fit in and to have things right. There's a material
aspect that shows that that maids you made it or
you're getting your money from somewhere, Like there's a space.
I know when I remember a young one of the
young men that I worked with, at one point we
brought him into he was interviewing for a job, and

(01:00:03):
we talked about like what are you gonna wear for
your job interview, and he's like, I'm gonna wear lots
of jewelry. And I'm like, okay, look around at the company,
like do you see people wearing lots of jewelry. I'm
just curious out of curiosity, and he said no, but
that's how I'm going to make my mark and people
will know. I mate, I'm something. And we had that

(01:00:23):
conversation about what what does it mean? Right? Like where
what do you see? Because I think it's exposure for
young people too, about what is it, what is important?
What are the values? What are we thinking about? And
that takes work. That's not an overnight thing. It's also
not a judgment thing. It's that is an understand understanding
what that meant to that young man. And I said,
you can wear all the jewelry you want when you

(01:00:45):
get that interview, when you get the job, Like, let's
think about the job first and how you're interviewing. And
it may sound a little bit like code switching or hiding,
and I think there's a difference. Both are based in fear.
So there's a piece of natural adolests which is about
fitting in. What I also hear when I talk when
you're talking about gang inclusion and when you're talking about

(01:01:08):
bullying and when you're talking about homelessness. Is that idea
of connection, Michael, like that that word connection. That's why
the young people that I've worked with over time form
into family, familiar relationships that they may not have in
other places. It's why they're looking for connection. So that
connection starts really young. The idea of wanting to connect

(01:01:31):
with your peers, wanting to fit in, wanting to have connection.
And I think the other piece is sometimes with young people.
And I know I have been guilty of it because
I just did a keynote for a group of college
students and I went in and I thought, these college
students are going to think I am so corny, like
and I have this postcard activity where I ask people

(01:01:54):
to put down what they're hiding. And I said, I
don't even know if I really want to do it
with the college kids. They're going to think it's so
studd And I did it anyway because I'm like, you
know what, that's what I do. Like, I I'm not
going to stray because so I think something's corny. That's like,
but I mentioned it. I said, yeah, you know what,
this is how I you want to be treated you're
in college, you want to be treated like adults, like

(01:02:15):
this is how I talk, this is what I do.
And afterward I was signing books that they received, and
I I always ask, I said, oh, I'm just curious
what resonated with what I said my message? And a
line of kids and one young woman comes up and
she says, I said, so what resonated? And she said,
in a really oh whisper Michael that you probably couldn't

(01:02:38):
even hear. She said, your postcard activity. And I said,
what about it? Because I had this bias that young
people a not only were going to think it was corny,
but that they were not hiding anything because they're all
over social media with all of their stuff. And she said,
your postcard activity, because it's the first time I've ever
been able to share my secret with anyone. That's what

(01:03:01):
hiding is to me. That's the pain of hiding is
that we feel like we can't talk about it. We
can't share what's happening in our lives because again, people
will reject us or judge us. And so when we
create space, when I ask people to write it down,
they can't unsee it. They may not, you know, I
take the postcards with me and they may not have

(01:03:22):
it in front of them. But when you've acknowledged something,
you can't unsee it. It's like when we say, you know,
I don't know, there's that video with you know, people
watch it. It's a basketball game, actually speaking of basketball,
it's a basketball game. And then you get to the
end and you're like, did you see the gorilla And
you're like, no, I know it. And then you go
back and you're like, oh my god, he was there
the whole time. What.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
Yeah, Like, you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
Can't unsee it once you've said it out loud, And
so that becomes the exercise. Is that's the first step.
It is acknowledging it, because once you acknowledge it, things
start to fall into place, especially if you do get
some guidance and some coaching around it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
Yeah, and and what I was speaking to as well,
and all of that is what you're talking about, which
is the defensiveness that you put up around it, which
leads to the violence and all the other issues that occur.
So you're able to Yeah, it's it's all those defense
mechanisms that we put up that that that gorilla one
got me. I thought I was going to be so
good at it. And you're you're a fellow toast master too,
I believe, right, aren't you a toast man. You're not. Oh,

(01:04:20):
I thought you weren't. For some reason, I thought we
had that conversation all right. Well, anyway, it was at
my toast master's meeting that it was shared. One of
the toast masters did a speech on that and shared
it with us, and I remember she said, watch this
video and see if you you notice something. It was like,
I think it's counting the balls. I think that's what
it is. There's there's a there's a distraction, there's a
distracting element in it of counting the orange balls and
the blue balls and things like that, and uh and

(01:04:43):
and it's like how many blue? How many orange? And
it's like and did you see the gorilla? It's like wait,
what what gorilla again? And you can't see right right?
It's so crazy, You're like, how did I answer? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
No, it's it's it is that. That's what I'm hiding
is and that's what I and it's funny. I also
want to share I had a recent trip. I was
able to go to Antarctica. And when you talked about
your the story that you're working on to tell and
it's full circle, Michael, in front of me, I saw

(01:05:16):
a whale breach. I saw the whole thing and it
was so satisfying. And it reminded me when you were
saying about your story like that full arch, like that
full moment is so And I'm going to use that
as a LinkedIn post because that you just remind I
wrote it down because I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a
good LinkedIn post about how that full unhiding What it
really feels like is that full you see the fluke

(01:05:39):
and all of it, like it's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
Well, I have something for you with that LinkedIn post
because I was going to segue us to there, and
what I was going to say to segue, which you
can steal if you like, it was going to be
about how unhiding, right, And what's our most hidden continent
which is Antarctica? And you nobody goes there. You had
the opportunity to go. Your father had in card you
to go see Antarctica, and you're like, why am I

(01:06:03):
going to go there? And I know I believe it
was Joe Rogan had a guest on talking about Antarctica,
and he said, all that's down there are scientists and
all these different things, and so I am interested in
you sharing it. You segued perfectly. You knew exactly where
I wanted to go. But speaking of the unseen, because
there's so much unseen in our Earth, in our planet

(01:06:24):
that we don't get to experience, and you got to
go to Antarctica, and you blew me away when you
told it to me earlier, because I'm like, first of all,
I just watched a learning video on it with my daughter,
and it's just like it can get down to like
negative eighty degrees or something. I think it was the
coldest was ever recorded down there, negative eighty degrease fahrenheit.
So I would love for you to share that little

(01:06:47):
story there about Antarctica with us.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
Yeah, that's definitely in the winter, and I went in
the summer, which is the opposite months, right, so the
Christmas the December season is their summer, so it doesn't
get there. I will say New York this week that
we're recording was colder than Antarctica.

Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
Wow. I've gone on in a T shirt, so I
could wear a T shirt in Antarctica Oh, you definitely could.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
I mean it was it was not as cold. I
mean they I remember the first day we went for
a hike and it was a long hike, like over
and I want to say it was over two miles,
which doesn't sound like a lot, but you're trudging through
mud and all the snow and ice and whatever, and
it wasn't two miles. Was longer. And I remember we
had so many layers on because we thought it was

(01:07:34):
going to be so cold that it was hard to walk.
We had all that on top of it. I will
say the beauty of Antarctica is multi multifaceted. I think
the animals that you see there that are indigenous to there,
but that also that have migrated there are unbelievably amazing,
from penguins to fur seals, to whales to just it's

(01:07:59):
a beautiful place. I think what's really fascinating is and
we do this, I think in our own lives, so
it will be it will resonate I imagine with you
in your audience, which is we sometimes we see something
and so I would look at this penguin colony filled
with thousands of penguins, and I'm like, it looks so
boring there, like what are they They're just sitting there.

(01:08:19):
It's so boring. You get up close and you walk
with them. They have their own world going on, like
they are diving into the water, out of the water,
meeting with each other, holding each other's eggs, doing all
this stuff, combating fur seals, worrying about these birds over
the like that are going to steal the eggs. Like
it is, it is, there's a lot going on. So

(01:08:40):
I use it as a metaphor because I'm like, we
often make an assumption that something looks one way, and
yet it is so this is this world is beautiful
and gorgeous and like juicy. So I love Dantarctica. Every
day I woke up like a kidd at Christmas, thinking
what am I going to see today? Like what is

(01:09:00):
what glacier? What iceberg? I mean the iceberg we saw
in Iceberg. It wasn't a twenty three that most people
are on the hunt for. We saw D thirty. It
was a fifteen mile iceberg D thirty. A fifteen mile iceberg,
Like that's city blocks, Like that's that's bigger than Manhattan.
And just this iceberg of like all these different shapes

(01:09:22):
and that there's a blue that the ice turns because
it compresses. That is so gorgeous. It's it's like nothing
I've ever seen in my life. And I think being
on a ship with people for almost three weeks also
allows for connection and community. And I think that was
a big piece of one was a big piece for

(01:09:44):
me of my learning. Is for the last four years,
many of us have worked from home and done a
lot solo, especially entrepreneurs who are solopreneurs who are building
businesses and leaders. And yet I know about myself and
this may resonate with you too, is I crave connection.
I crave people. I love the idea of being able

(01:10:07):
to say good morning to people and how are they,
how is your weekend? And so that I realized is
a real need of mine. And so how do I
create community Now that I'm back from that trip, I
saw it and I can't undsee it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:22):
Yeah, I enjoy a good connection too. It's funny when
you talk about the airplane. It is funny, it is.
I think it's kind of how it happens though, right,
because when I first get on an airplane, I want
to get settled in, you know, and I need that
time to get settled in before I get into the
whole Q and A. And then I think the other

(01:10:44):
side to it all for me is I know I
can talk, obviously, and so I'm also very self conscious
of am I gonna really bother this person by getting
into a long winded conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
But they have a choice, That's the thing. They have
a choice, And it is the idea of like, how
do I not take it personally if they don't want
to go. I mean, you're heating on a plane sometimes
for let's say it's a four hour trip, a ten
hour trip. I've been on fifteen hour flights not even
to say hello, like really, we're.

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):
Oh yeah, yeah, that's.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
And you can't tell me what you did, like where
you went, like where you're headed.

Speaker 1 (01:11:25):
Really, I remember as a little boy being on the plane.
We were headed to probably the Dominican Republic because we
went there every summer, so that's the only one I
could think of that might have been the situation. But
I remember it vividly. I was walking down the aisle
and this guy, he probably was like a twenty year old,
had a game boy out at the time, and obviously

(01:11:45):
it's when game boys were hot. Right, And I probably
was like six or seven or eight, somewhere around that
range there, but I remember it and I stood over
his shoulder. He was on the edge of the he
was on the aisle seat, and I stood over his
shoulder and was just watching him play. And I was
just like, you know, I didn't have one. I didn't,
you know, but I was enamored by it. And I
was just asking him a ton of questions. And I

(01:12:06):
kind of remember him being like, all right, are you done?
Can you go away? And finally being escorted away. But
I think my parent came or somebody that worked there,
But I just remember that feeling. It was like so weird,
Like it's so weird because it always stuck with me
in terms of conversations of like, oh, I should probably
end this conversation so I don't bother them.

Speaker 2 (01:12:25):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:12:25):
It's so funny the things that stick with us from you.

Speaker 2 (01:12:28):
Sure we have like that's it's the images. I was
just talking to somebody today, like that's the goal. Right.
We don't actually have written stories in our heads. We
have just pictures. We have memories, We have these ideas,
these flashes, right, So that story, Michael, I imagine I
wouldn't take it out of what potentially could be a

(01:12:48):
story for you. Right when you're speaking like that, we
don't know, like it's not filtering out things, just writing
them down, being like, oh, what are those memories that
are jogged when I hear something that I walk with?

Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
That's that's really really cool that came out of there.
I love that speaking of stories. So you have another
book that you're working on right now, and if you
could just share with us a little bit of insight
as to what that one's going to be about.

Speaker 2 (01:13:12):
Course, so single handedly is my Journey of Hiding to Unhiding.
That's my first book, and it's really the stories of
my hiding and how it started and how I learned
to unhide it, and really in depth in terms of
vignettes and then insights and then reflection questions so that
people can think about, wait is what is it that

(01:13:33):
I'm hiding? Where is it? How have I thought about difference?
How do I think about difference? How do I go
on this journey myself? And then the second book is
focused on connection and leadership and loneliness, like there's something
in there around why is it? Because as I shared before,
as a leader. I had definitely adopted in old school

(01:13:55):
leadership mentality, this idea that you keep people at arm's length,
you don't connect with them in personal ways. And yet
I wanted that for my staff. I wanted to build
culture that way, and I often delegated culture to my
team rather than being a leader and owning it. And
I share that out with leaders, and I think that

(01:14:16):
is a it's a I don't want to say it's
a universal yet, but I think there's a common thread
there that it's not so unheard of. And I'm wrestling
with why do leaders go first? Right? Like, why is
it important for leaders to model culture to own culture?
How do we do that through an unhiding framework, and

(01:14:36):
how is it connected to loneliness and belonging? Because I'm
using the case example Michael of Tim Cook, the CEO
of Apple in twenty fourteen, he did a Bloomberg article
on his sexual orientation and why he was coming out,
and he hadn't been hiding his sexual orientation in his

(01:15:00):
personal life, but he wanted his workplace to know so
that if any employee ever felt like they needed support,
that they needed you know that there was something different
that they had a place that this was a supportive environment.
He was willing to model that first and thought it
was really important that that's the culture he was setting.
And we know from the research that companies who value

(01:15:21):
difference are the most innovative companies, they're the most creative.
So if those two things are true that as a leader,
you're going to model this and actually want it because
you know that the company that you're leading and building
values difference. You're going to get the most innovation, You're
going to get the most productivity, the retention, all those

(01:15:43):
things that you want. So that's why leaders go first.
So it's an examination of leadership, how we do it,
how we and look at it. That's it. And there's
a loneliness piece in there also, like because being a
leader has lonely parts to it also, so what's the
loneliness factor and how does connection build into that? So
it's being built right now, but it's definitely focused on

(01:16:05):
leadership and connection.

Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
That's so cool. I mean, there's a lot there. There's
one thing that stands out to me in terms of
the vulnerability of a leader. It's interesting. I literally was
just thinking about this yesterday because of a keynote that
I landed, which is really cool, one of my very
first keynotes. And so I was thinking about bringing out

(01:16:27):
a cinematographer with me who I work closely with as
professionally but also as one of my mentees, who is
also one of my coaching clients. And so the reason
why this kind of hits home for me with what
you're bringing up is I was thinking, Okay, how can
I save on cost if I bring him with me
to record me? And also it'd be a really great

(01:16:48):
experience to share with him, right like, I'm thinking of
it as it's a great experience. He's a new entrepreneur,
he's really young, he's twenty years old. He's a new entrepreneur.
This is a great experience for him. He'll record my keynote,
he'll cord my activities. This is really good for me
on that end. We'll have some really good one one
one on one time to be able to help him
and him helping me, quite honestly, And I won't be

(01:17:10):
alone there, right like, I'm going to this conference, it's
my first one. It'll be three days. It'll be nice
to have someone there with me. Even if he's my mentee,
it'll still be nice to have that person there with me.
And I thought, okay, how can I you know, I'll
pay for his travel, and how could I maybe cut
on costs? Maybe we'll share a room, right, And as
soon as I thought of the sharing of the room,

(01:17:30):
I went the wall went up of but wouldn't that change?
And this is almost a question still, right, wouldn't that
change then the way he views me? Wouldn't that change
our relationship? And you know, there's like, let's say this
element of maybe curiosity or maybe unknown that is part

(01:17:51):
of the mentor mentee relationship, right of like you know,
never meet your idols kind of thing, right, Not that
I'm his idol, but like never meet your idols because
then you know the real that meant. So you can
only imagine an intimate setting like a hotel room for
three days. How of course we're going to get a
lot more intimate and get to know each other on
a different level. And maybe we're not asking for that
kind of sharing or that much intimacy, But I am

(01:18:13):
interested because it did cross my mind of like, well,
if I did that, would that change our relationship?

Speaker 2 (01:18:20):
That's an interesting question and a way to think about it.
It's funny because when you're talking, I'm also thinking about
boundaries and the idea of what does it feel like
to have boundaries? And I only say it, I guess
from two spaces. One is as a speaker, it is
a lonely job. Like it's lonely right. We get up
on stage even though people think, oh, I'm talking to people,

(01:18:41):
so how could it be lonely? And you're like, well, yeah,
but I leave the stage and then I'm done, and
then people are still connecting out there and they're going
to hear another speaker and they're on and so there's
a loneliness to it. There's also sometimes a recharge that
needs to happen being we poured out a lot on stage,
like we've been, you know, as vulnerable as we can be.
We've told story, we've brought up the energy, whatever that looks.

Speaker 1 (01:19:02):
There's a come down, Yeah, to come down, And.

Speaker 2 (01:19:05):
So sometimes we need that space just to be in
our head and not worried about what someone's thinking about
our breathing is too heavy, or that wow, aren't they
going to shower at some point? Like how come they
didn't brush their teeth yet? Like all those things that
you might be watching. So there's that space I think
of as a speaker, like being protective of the boundaries

(01:19:25):
that you may need, like the self care that you
may need, because it's it's a lot. And then I
think it's the boundaries of just human beings like sometimes
needs space. It's great to meet up for breakfast. I
don't know that I want to share a room with
you either, right, Like you know what I mean, Like
it's nice to have connection, but I want to also,
and I'm just that person. There are lots of people
who love to share rooms. I know. I get invited

(01:19:46):
when I go to any National Speakers Association. They're like,
but do you want to share a room? I'm like, no,
I'm good.

Speaker 1 (01:19:52):
Yeah, I don't want to share a room.

Speaker 2 (01:19:54):
You have to be comfortable without yourself. The other thing, though, Michael,
I might make a plug for as part of growing
your community and business is National Speakers Association, because I
think that's a space where these kind of things come up, right,
Like where you're like, oh, wait, am I the only
ones that ever had to think about sharing room with
the person I'm bringing? Like probably not? And there are

(01:20:14):
people who again do share rooms, Like I just know
why I love NSA is because of especially the New
York City chapter is because if there's a community of
people who have been through this to walk down this path,
to have that shared experience.

Speaker 1 (01:20:29):
Yeah, and so one, of course, the community piece there
is huge in what you just mentioned there of being
able to kind of have this open dialogue and kind
of different a conversation around it. And I agree with
you one hundred percent and that we do need that
downtime and recharge. I know that after talking after this,
after my podcast, I am exhausted. I mean, I do

(01:20:49):
two of these in one day. But I'm I'll tell
you what my second podcast, I'm always okay. If they're
always like, hey, can we reschedule, I'm like, yep, sure,
ken because I oh, my goodness, no, because there's so
much energy. But as you can tell with our meeting today,
which you are the second one, I still bring. It's
I'm I'm charged up by our conversation, just like we

(01:21:12):
are charged up on stage. Something else that happens which
is very interesting, and I want to go back to
the leader thing and boundaries, so I don't want to
forget that for us. That's very interesting with being a
speaker is the what I think people and I'm interested
on your experience on this feel that their feedback is

(01:21:33):
important to give to us as speakers afterwards. And it's
interesting because I bring this up only because when you
said that that loneliness after where the people are networking
and they're talking and everything. What I've found is like,
after I give a talk, people want to come up
to me and they want to shower me with wonderful compliments,
which I always appreciate as well, and they also want

(01:21:54):
to share with me their feedback on the talk and
the things that maybe I could have improved on, and
I appreciate that as well because I want that too.
But what it does remove for me is I'm not
able to network with them right because they're they're coming
to me giving me their feedback, their compliments or their
thoughts and everything, and so it removes the idea of yeah, hey,

(01:22:14):
by the way, I also want to get to know you,
and I want to talk with you, and I want
to sit with you and get to know you. Not
from the oh, there's Michael the speaker, but from the hey,
I'm Michael, and what's your name? Like let's just talk well.

Speaker 2 (01:22:26):
And I have two immediate reactions to that. And I
think there's a need that people have right with that
feedback thing. So I actually learned and now address it.
And I don't know if you've used this tool, and
I'm happy to send you a link. Is talk a
lot because I'm not allows for and I'll send you
a link because it's really amazing. It allows for the
feedback piece, right, It allows for them to get that

(01:22:48):
need out there, and it also allows you to build
leads and to build a community where you can connect
with people email wise, like so that they have that
space like to be like, oh, Michael, I wanted to
tell you this. It's like they have that space in it,
and I build it into my talk. It's before the closing.
It's so that hey, I've given you a lot. I
would love to I'm building an unhiding community. I'd love

(01:23:09):
to hear from you, like what resonated? What what is
it that you want to share with me about how
could I do better? Because I'm always looking to build. Yeah,
always do better, And so people have it's like that
need that they do have right to And I was
I learned from somebody that I don't ask for feedback
on talking because a lot of these people aren't professional speakers,

(01:23:32):
So why am I asking like I asked for it
in the talk a dot form, because there's a constructive
place to give it. When people then come up to
you and they're not professional speakers, they don't know that
you know, the sound check didn't work because of the microphone,
they think it's you, like that you didn't know how
to use a microphone. No, that's not actually true, or
that you know what they were running thirty minutes behind

(01:23:54):
and they only gave you fifteen and you're like, oh, okay,
so I've had to shorten it, and they're like, you know,
it wasn't really in depth. Yeah no, I know, but
you don't know the behind the story. So like that
feedback isn't so helpful.

Speaker 1 (01:24:06):
Or they weren't paying attention during your talk and they
missed a key component.

Speaker 2 (01:24:10):
Right, So that's the place for I think talk that
is brilliant, that it has a space, and I'm again,
I will send you the link. It's great, I think,
And yeah, it's great. I think. The other piece is
I ask people what resonated with them when they do
want to give me what feedback, Like if I'm signing

(01:24:31):
a book or I you know, I say, I don't
say anymore because I think I probably started with, oh,
what did you like whatever? And that isn't the question
I actually want to hear. I want to hear what
resonated because I want to know what I need to
do right, like, yeah, what stuff? And what else? How
do I keep talking about this because you always are
tuning into your audience right about And I know it

(01:24:52):
just gots me because I heard a great speaker emon
O'Brien at NSA last Friday, and I've heard it about
a thousand times from people, and I you know how
sometimes you can hear a thing a thousand times and
finally you get it when someone else says it. And
I was like, wait a minute, because I've been struggling
Michael with the idea of Okay, I'm going to tell
all I'm going to tell my stories. Wait, oh, I

(01:25:14):
have to tell stories that they're going to understand, like
they're going to relate to. And what I didn't realize
is I thought, oh, I have to tell my stories
or I have to tell their stories. No. No, I'm
telling my stories that are resonating with them, like and
how what's the lesson from them? And it was this
connection that I needed to get because but when I
asked the question, or I should say, and when I

(01:25:35):
asked the question, what resonated it? I do hear back
those stories that people that they say, oh, when you
said that story about that you know law guy who
criticized you. Oh, I've had a boss like that too.
He was terrible. He was the worst. That resonated with me.
I understand. And I said, so, are you a manager
like that? Like how that engages to your point? That

(01:25:56):
networking conversation that it allows for that Oh, okay, speaking
thing is a it's a it's an interesting business because
you're always learning.

Speaker 1 (01:26:06):
It is it really is. I know that I I
when I was first wanting to become a keynotor after
keynotes would speak, I would always go up to them
and speak with them, and I'd asked them a lot
of questions. And I did have one keynote or she
actually sat with me. The one, the first one that
I did it with, he was like walking talk and
walk in to his car and that was that was it.

(01:26:27):
The second one she actually sat with me for close
to an hour after her keynote to share with me
her knowledge and her experience and to walk me through
some of my questions I had. And I really appreciated
that she's She's really it was. It was really really impactful.
And so you're right, there is there is a way
to provide feedback. Because I was giving feedback. I was like,
that was amazing. How did you do that? And and

(01:26:48):
to network and to open up the door to networking
to where we were able to sit at the table.
I want to go back to the boundaries thing. Oh
go ahead, No, I was going to.

Speaker 2 (01:26:55):
Say, and how can this be useful to their company
or to wherever they're working? Right, because I think that's
or how can this be useful to them outside of
what they heard in sixty minutes or even less sometimes
or sometimes longer. But like, we know that one keynote
isn't going to change their lives forever. It's planting a seed.
So how do we actually help them grow that seed?
And I know that sounds cliche, but like, how do

(01:27:17):
we start to develop that so that you when you network,
it does become a conversation say, oh, you know what
I help with that? Like that's the stuff I do.
I'm a coach, I have a podcast, I have this, like, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:27:31):
What was cool was I didn't have any of that
when I first met her, So that was really cool.
It's really cool to catch up with her. Back to Boundaries.
So a Brene Brown fan myself, I know that you
are one too. I think that what's really important about
bringing this piece back for this conversation is when you
were talking about Tim Cook and coming out and I
was bringing up the story of perhaps maybe sharing a

(01:27:52):
room with someone. Is that the Brene Brown talks about
it so clearly, and I love the way she describes
this as it's just there is you have to set
boundaries so that people are very well aware as to
what lines to cross, in which lines not to cross,
and in what we're talking about here, it is very
important to set perhaps a boundary of not sharing a

(01:28:16):
personal space between a mentor and a mentee or even
between anybody. Right, maybe there's just a reason for that boundary.
And then of course back to Tim Cook and maybe
removing a boundary of here's here's an availability to all
of you. And so I think that that's so important
and my last little Brene Brown story outside of all
of her cool books There is a movie that my

(01:28:38):
wife and I watched and I want to I don't
know if it was Bride'smaids or one of those movies
with a pretty star studded cast of women on a trip.

Speaker 2 (01:28:48):
They want to wine. They drank wine and Napa, yes.

Speaker 1 (01:28:51):
Yes, And they ran into Brene Brown and they were
all like, they're all hovered around her table at a
meal and they're like, oh my goodness, it's Brene Brown
and they're all hovered around. What advice do you have
for resident goes boundaries women boundaries, ladies? And it was
like oh, and they all took steps back.

Speaker 2 (01:29:08):
Yeah, no, there is. It's boundaries are important, and I
think they're important because for setting them, and I think
it's also about accepting them from others, right, So I
think and I often show that most. I highlight that
most in the disability community because I think sometimes we
feel like we have the right to know about someone's

(01:29:29):
difference or disability and I'm great talking about it. There
are others who are not and so accepting that they
may not want to share their ba their their disability
with me, or they may not want to share their
disability with you. Like so understanding and accepting that people
have boundaries and so how do we allow for them

(01:29:49):
so that we don't so we don't we don't make
them uncomfortable either. Yeah, and I yeah, something else about boundaries.
But yeah, well.

Speaker 1 (01:29:59):
Bring it back up, Bring it back up, for sure.
But I think it just goes back to kind of
full circle on our conversation and where we started with
the ask right of when you're you know, college friends,
if they were to ask you and you would were
to kind of deflect or whatever, you were putting up
a boundary and they respected that boundary, right, And so

(01:30:19):
it's I had asked the question of so when's a
good time to ask, and I think it's you know,
you're kind of beating around the bush a little bit
in terms of you're asking and the boundaries are going up,
and it's realizing, Okay, the boundaries are up. Let's respect
that and move on from it.

Speaker 2 (01:30:34):
Okay with it. And creating boundaries is okay too, because
it allows people to know where those bases are that
you can go. I mean, I oh, I will say
with disability. And just to bring it back for a
second to that is, I've had people Michael reach out
and grab my hand, like when I did not give
permission for that at all, Like that is that is

(01:30:56):
a boundary that and I equate it to it. What
I think is when women are pregnant and people just
come up and they put their hand on someone's stomach
and I'm like, nobody allowed that. They can say yes
to that. So I think about that with disability. I mean,
whether we help somebody who is blind, whether we help
somebody who is a wheelchair user, whether we like sometimes

(01:31:17):
we don't ask, and so it's about asking rather than
making an assumption. I think that's where boundaries are a
key to all of this. And it doesn't mean you're
disconnected because you don't want to share a room with someone.
It means that you're setting healthy boundaries and you're modeling
what it means to take care of yourself if that's
important to you. If it's not, and you're like, yeah,

(01:31:38):
I can't wait bro to hang out in the room
and like whatever, we can talk all night. I don't know,
I don't think I totally always do.

Speaker 1 (01:31:43):
That, but I talk all night.

Speaker 2 (01:31:49):
But it's also then respecting to see because you're you know,
do twins want to do that too? And if that is.
That's great. I know myself and I've been like this
for years. I'm good. I can go off into my
own room. I like it. I'm good. I just I
need to love the connection and I also love the
downtime in the mount.

Speaker 1 (01:32:07):
I want to bring up some of your quotes and
mantras that you live by that help move you forward
with all of the things that you do. I mean,
you were a CEO for over twenty years, You've studied
in all sorts of different places, and now you've written
a book, you're on your second book, You've done ted talks,

(01:32:28):
You've done so much, and so this is so fitting
for you in that your mantra is keep moving forward,
My story must be heard. I absolutely love this as
a mantra, which is one that you live by, and
you said you have your post it on and we're
going to speak a little bit more about it. And
I also want to share a quote that you also

(01:32:51):
stand by, and that's nobody can make you feel inferior
unless you consent. And I think two powerful you know,
three you know too powerful mantras and a powerful quote
there for you to live by.

Speaker 2 (01:33:09):
I think that you know it's funny mantra has come
to us sometimes from tough situations and challenges, right And
I remember I was going through a breakup and a
breakup in a relationship, and I had a really good
girlfriend who said to me, she's like, I don't care

(01:33:29):
what's happening with him, because I was all devastated and upset,
and you know what, sometimes what we go through and
a breakthrough, and that's probably where I did cry and I,
you know, worried about him, and she said, I need
you to keep moving forward. That's what's important right now.
I need you to remember keep moving forward. And there
are tough times in all of our lives. I will

(01:33:50):
say definitely in the speaking industry, it is a hustle
a lot it is sometimes you get great audiences and
sometimes people are like, I have no idea what you're
talking about, and especially in zoom world where you can't
see people most of the time, so that's hard. And
so I think that keep moving forward. It is a

(01:34:11):
rattled and tattered posted that I have taped one to
three four places on my computer because I want to
keep remembering that. And then the other piece is the
idea of the other mantra is my story needs to
be told, like somebody needs to hear this. And I
get into sometimes a place, Michael, where I ask the universe.

(01:34:33):
I'm like, all right, show me that I'm on the
right path, show me that my story needs to be told,
like show me, And I'll get an email from someone
who read my book or saw my ted and says,
oh my god, I needed that, like thank you, because
I've been hiding this part of myself and that's the
memorial or the remembrance of my story needs to be
told because it will help somebody, even if it helps

(01:34:55):
one person. I mean, I wrote my book single handedly
because I want that book. As a twelve year old,
I wish I had had that because I wouldn't have
spent so much time hiding. I wouldn't have. And the quote,
the Eleanor Roosevelt quote of nobody can make you feel
inferior without your consent. I carry around a because I

(01:35:17):
think that we often blame others for how we feel,
and the truth is we have to acknowledge first with ourselves,
right Like we do more damage sometimes to ourselves and
the stories we tell ourselves. And so that's why inviting
that person in becomes such a good truth teller or
a reality check to some of the stories that we

(01:35:37):
believe about ourselves. We actually are the ones that often
make ourselves the most inferior.

Speaker 1 (01:35:44):
Yeah, the stories that we're telling ourselves.

Speaker 2 (01:35:46):
Hm. There, I would never talk to my friend the
way that sometimes I talk to myself. And I had
to learn that a while ago, which is, why would
you ever say that to yourself? Because you'd never say
that to a friend?

Speaker 1 (01:35:57):
Right, good friend, right to say to you, I love
that you just said that. That's that's literally what I
what I preach as well, the same thing. Would you
be friends with the person that's in your head? Sometimes
it's like I'd ask them to leave? Right? Are you
kidding me?

Speaker 2 (01:36:14):
Oh? And so how do we show grace and kindness
to ourselves? How do we show support to ourselves? And
that's the journey. That's why the unhiding becomes important. Also
is because we allow for that space and that grace.

Speaker 1 (01:36:27):
Yeah, and I know that on your website you have
several worksheets on there that people can download, they can
learn more about on hiding. They can learn you have
some checklists there. I believe you have a robust website.
I went through your website, and I was like, I
need to send us over to my my web developer,
because it is it's incredible. You have really really built

(01:36:51):
a beautiful website that has so much to offer. There's
so many cool quotes in there, testimonials, but so much
to offer too of just resources. Just like you have
your booklist on there. I saw it like I was like,
whoa look at this book list, and I mean, that's
how I knew about Brenne Brown for you is that
was part of your book list. Like just so many
different things there in your website and so I would

(01:37:14):
love for our audio listeners if you could share some
of the ways that people can connect with you. And
of course this will all be in the show notes.

Speaker 2 (01:37:22):
Thank you, no, and thank you for checking out the website.
And there's still more to come because I'm working with
my amazing website developer, Cynthia lay around it because she's
been a powerhouse and just thinking about the things that
people may need and even how as my thinking evolves,
also how does my website evolve, right, because it is
about unhiding and connection and how do we create those

(01:37:44):
spaces so that people can even share their stories because
sometimes Michael, when we're in line, you know, people are
in line to talk to us for that networking. After
people start sharing their stories and I'm like, I can't
keep it straight. So I needed a place so that
people could go and share their story and give me
the option and give them the option if I can
use it in an upcoming book, if I can use

(01:38:04):
it on social media, if I can use it so
that they have a space too to have agency over
how that story gets shared. So that's important. That was
a big piece of addition. So I appreciate you checking
out my website, and I think there's definitely more to come.
I'm working with her now. I am very active on LinkedIn,
so I do a lot of I have a lot

(01:38:25):
of conversation about hiding and unhiding and connection and loneliness,
and we expand the conversation on diversity to be fully inclusive.
I'd spend a lot of time on LinkedIn, which is
just my name, Ruth Rathblot I and I'm only the
only one I can say that for sure, that is
Ruth Rathblot. I spend a lot of time on Instagram.

(01:38:46):
I showcase my I probably unhide to people, so they
get a chance to know me a little bit better
on Instagram, where I do share my travels and my
love of theater, but the things that I like doing
so my personal side. So people, I'm not just this,
you know, unhiding persons and hiding expert. No, I actually
talk about other things too and they can see it.

(01:39:09):
And then yeah, absolutely my website ruswrathblot dot com. It's
a great place to find information and resources.

Speaker 1 (01:39:17):
So cool. It has been an honor to have you
on my show today. I'm always honored by having authors
and Ted talkers on because it's what I aspire for
myself to be, you know, in your shoes one day
and be able to have those accomplishments. I'm currently working
on my book which will be published very soon, and
Ted talk soon to come, I'm sure. So it has

(01:39:39):
been an honor to have you on the show today,
and I do appreciate you sharing and being so vulnerable
with us today with everything, all of your experiences, all
of your stories, and all of your knowledge sharing all
of that with us as well. Thank you so much, No.

Speaker 2 (01:39:53):
Thank you, Michael, thank you for the opportunity to have
space for this conversation and also the podcast. I mean
that is on my list of checklists. I want to
get a podcast, and so what do I need to
do so I can learn so much from you? And
I also appreciate your awareness of yourself and sharing parts
of you that are vulnerable, because that's what makes a
conversation interesting. It would be super boring if it were

(01:40:15):
just me talking. That would not be a fun show.

Speaker 1 (01:40:19):
Well, I could listen to you all day, and I
will be because I got to finish up your TED Talk,
so I will be listening to the rest of that
and we will be in touch about podcasting because if
there's anybody I can help with podcasts, I am so
more than happy. This is a dream come true for
me to be able to do this, to be able
to sit in this chair and be able to interview

(01:40:40):
people like you. So I appreciate that and I'm happy
to help.

Speaker 2 (01:40:44):
Thank you, No, and I can't wait for you to
listen to the audio book too, because that's good, like
a space like it takes the TED Talk and goes
to a very different level. So yeah, I'm excited for
you to share it with you and you're a listener,
So thanks for giving me the space Michael.

Speaker 1 (01:40:57):
Thank you for listening to The Michael Esposito Show. For
show notes, video clips, and more episodes, go to Michael Espositoinc.
Dot com backslash podcast. Thank you again to our sponsor
dn ten Insurance Services helping businesses get the right insurance
for all their insurance needs. Visit Denten dot io to

(01:41:18):
get a quote that's d n ten dot io and remember,
when you buy an insurance policy from Denten, you're giving
back on a global scale. This episode was produced by
Uncle Mike at the iHeart Studios in Poughkeepsie. Special thanks
to Lara Rodrian for the opportunity and my team at
Michael Esposito Inc. Hello all my entrepreneurs and business leaders,

(01:41:41):
and welcome to The Michael Esposito Show.

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