March 5, 2024 • 26 mins
Have you ever wondered how to effectively manage multiple responsibilities in a school setting without losing your sanity? Join us as we chat with Michelle Jocinska, a seasoned educator who wears many hats as an assistant principal, PYP coordinator, and teacher at a medium-sized international school in Japan. She generously shares her unique perspective on navigating the education landscape while donning multiple roles. From her approach to handling staff support to her transition from a teacher to an administrator, Michelle's insights are nothing short of educational gold!
As we talk about school initiatives and vision, you'll learn how to create a balance, ensuring progress isn't compromised. We delve deep into the Lippitt-Noster model for complex change, highlighting the importance of a clear vision and consensus for successful initiatives. You'll gain a newfound appreciation for the power of the 'opt-in' over 'opt-out' systems, realizing the profound impact of focusing on fewer, deeper goals.
But what about teacher burnout and disengagement? A pertinent issue that plagues our education system today. We explore this sensitive topic from a systems archetype perspective, underscoring the need for solutions that tackle the roots rather than merely pruning the leaves. An exciting proposition we discuss is the 'opt-in' system for initiatives, a potential game-changer in giving teachers the power to choose their level of participation. It's all about homing in on the institution's purpose and vision, and simplifying initiatives to reach meaningful and achievable goals. Do join us on this riveting journey where we dissect, discuss, and derive insights from the heart of education itself.
Michelle Jasinska is an Assistant Principal, PYP Coordinator, and teacher at a medium sized international school in Japan. She is effectively in charge of the Elementary School, have three jobs and have to be hyper organized amongst the chaos.
Podcast resources:
- Systems Archetype
- Lippitt-Knoster Model for Managing Complex Change
- Eisenhower Decision Matrix (Covey)
- Nudge R. Thaler and C Sunstein
Buy The Minimalist Teacher book from ASCD+ISTE.
Follow on Instagram @PlanZEducation and @minimalist_ed_podcast.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast is a Plan Z Education Services adventure.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast, a
podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Teacher Book, TammyMusiowsky-Borniman and Christine
Arnold.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
In today's episode, we talked to Michelle about how
to handle split roles andsupporting staff in their work.
Her pared down pointer is toremember that less is more,
especially when it comes to newinitiatives.
Michelle Jocinska is anassistant principal, pyp
coordinator and teacher at amedium-sized international
school in Japan.
She's effectively in charge ofthe elementary school, has three
(00:57):
jobs and has to behypo-organized amongst the chaos
.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Welcome to this week's episode of the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
This week we have a veryspecial guest, Michelle Jocinska
, with us.
Welcome, Michelle.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Hi, thank you for welcoming to your podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
It's awesome to have you with us because, I mean, the
three of us met teaching inSingapore a few years ago and so
the three of us, you know, havelived in many different places.
You and I have that Canadianconnection, but you also have
that British Isles connectionand you're now in Japan, which
(01:39):
is where Christine used to teach.
So there's all of theseinteresting common threads.
And during that time you'vealso shifted roles too.
So the three of us wereactually teachers in the same
school and now you're in anadministrator role.
So can you talk a little bitabout your current role and then
(02:01):
that shift that you made fromteacher to admin?
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Yeah, this is something I absolutely never
wanted to do.
I have to preface this.
I always said I just never wantto be in leadership.
That just is not for me.
But here I am and it seemedlike throughout my life I've
always been handed these kind ofroles.
It's always been oh Michelle,here's a group you can be the
(02:29):
leader, or been put placedpretty intentionally with people
, whether it's in school or inother places where I know I was
meant to lead that group.
So I think it just was anatural step.
I'm currently in a school inJapan.
(02:50):
I would say it's small tomedium size.
It's kind of a growing school.
We have 400 students.
I have 200 students under me,but I have also three roles at
this school.
So I went from a teacher to aclass just responsible for a
(03:13):
small area of the school toresponsible for the curriculum
coordination.
So I'm a PYP coordinator aswell as the assistant principal
of the school and I also teach.
So, as you can imagine, this isnot a very minimalist job.
No this is a job that's anythingbut minimalist, because it just
(03:38):
has so many facets to it and Ihave so many different ways to
pull my time in every day and,as you know, as an educator no
day is the same and it can bechaotic and even with one role,
but with three roles, it seemslike this chaos is extra.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Yeah, so then how do you actually how do you section
up your week?
Does it look like?
I know, like you mentioned, noday is the same, but do you try
to section out your week so that, like, do you teach it two days
a week and then you have a dayof coordinator time?
Like how does that look for youthen?
Speaker 4 (04:22):
That's a really good question.
So the way that this isstructured is I have only the
units of inquiry for my class,so I share the role with the
principal and I've actuallywe've actually had to pull in
someone else to teach theliteracy.
So principal teaches the math,someone else teaches literacy
and I teach the unit of inquiry.
(04:43):
So I have class every day, Ihave meeting times every day
that I've pre-scheduled withevery single team and I have.
What I try to block out isadmin time.
However, I realized reallyquickly that blocking out admin
(05:03):
time doesn't necessarily work,because there are things that
happen throughout the day thatyou cannot plan for.
So I just make sure that I haveenough time to myself for one
and I have enough time toactually function running the
(05:25):
school.
So it requires.
What it requires is lookingahead and thinking kind of in
six-week chunks.
So, looking six weeks ahead,going okay, what are all the
priorities I have coming up?
What's coming up in six weeks?
Right, these are all mymust-dos now.
These are my not so urgent butwill need to be done.
(05:47):
So I use the decision-makingmatrix.
This has really helped becauseactually from that I often in my
earlier days in my admin role,I would take everything on
myself.
I would just look six weeksahead, but I would just do
absolutely every single thingthat I needed to do between that
(06:11):
point and six weeks ahead.
But where I have become a bitmore minimalist in my approach
to leadership is to actuallydelegate some of those tasks
that actually don't necessarilyneed to be connected to my role.
That can be delegated toappropriate people.
(06:34):
And I think that this isactually a pitfall of many
leaders is that they do delegatebut they're actually putting a
lot more pressure and a lot morestress, a lot more time on
their staff that they don'tnecessarily have.
So I'm also very mindful aboutwho I give this, these not so
(07:01):
time-sensitive but pretty urgenttasks to, but I need to make
sure that it's in their capacityto do it.
And so do you do, giving themchoice or it's usually connected
to either their role, if theyhave a kind of a middle
(07:24):
leadership role.
So I often will do that with mysubject area coordinators.
So if it's something that'sconnected to a unit of inquiry,
I might, I might give it to thatsubject area coordinator, or
perhaps literacy, or perhapsmath.
That's my first point of call.
So I have my kind of hierarchy.
Who should it go to?
The next is a choice.
(07:46):
There is I, who would like totake this on, and we have really
great staff and people do takeit on, but I also have to be
mindful of that it's not thesame person taking it on each
time.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
I have a lot of thoughts and I'm like which
direction do I want to go?
You can go any direction.
Yeah, I want to go back to youmentioned using the urgent,
important matrix which comesfrom, like Steven Covey, and you
see it in a bunch of places,right, and we've got an
adaptation in our book.
How often do you use that toreprioritize, because we know
(08:27):
that there are certain times ofthe year that you know
priorities change.
So how often do you use that?
Speaker 4 (08:35):
I think I should print it off and look at it
every day, but I think becauseit's in my mind now, I use it
every day.
I use it absolutely every daybecause my important not urgent
tasks I'm scheduling those.
I'm putting reminders in mycalendar.
I'm snoozing emails when I knowthat they're not important
(08:59):
right now and I will need to dothem later, because if I just
click on the email and go, I'lldo that later, I will never
remember.
When you have this many thingsgoing on, your mind can be like
a sieve and everything can justdrop right through.
I schedule those.
Anything that's urgent,important, obviously gets done
(09:21):
right away, and that's usuallywith any student-centered issues
, anything around health andsafety, any crises really Not
urgent, not important.
I had a really good thing todayand I thought what comes up
that's not urgent and notimportant?
I don't think there's manythings at school that happen
(09:45):
that aren't important becauseeven if it's a small issue that
a student has or maybe somethingthat's bothering a teacher,
that's still important becauseit's important to them.
I honestly don't even think Ilook at quadrant 4 in my
day-to-day life.
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
I've been using one of those.
It's like a Chrome extension,it's similar, but it's like must
do later, delegate, postpone.
It's a similar one, but I haveto say everything goes in the
must do.
It's really good.
It's a real problem.
I have.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
It's really hard not to take all of that on.
I love my school.
It's an amazing school.
We have amazing students, wehave amazing teachers.
But we have a syndrome that alot of smaller schools have
where we try to do it all In ourroles.
(10:50):
We try to do it all.
We have so many different rolesin one because that's just the
way small schools tend to go.
But I feel like my school is avery keen go-getter kind of
school and we try to do it allas well.
We have so many thingshappening at once.
(11:10):
I think that can be verydistracting.
Because there's just so manythings happening at once, it's
hard to grab on to what'shappening at each moment of time
because everybody wants to dosomething.
Everybody wants to have theirinitiative go ahead, everybody
(11:33):
wants to have their voice.
That's wonderful and we'recelebrating that.
However, it can be reallycomplex and quite a lot on staff
.
A leadership approach to thisis really making sure that the
system itself is supporting anenvironment that's not stressful
(11:59):
but it's not always easy.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Right?
How do you try to mitigate someof that stress?
Because it is fun.
There's a lot of shiny objectsin education, like, oh, this
thing is fun, let's try thisprogram or contest or whatever
it is.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
But how do you?
Because different people havedifferent thresholds of how much
they can juggle at the sametime.
So, yeah, how do you do that,Michelle?
Speaker 4 (12:34):
I don't think I do it very well yet.
Actually, I think just being avoice of, not reason, but a
voice of, is this too much?
Are we giving everyone enoughtime to accomplish what they
need to accomplish?
(12:54):
Are we giving everyone enoughtime to wrap their heads around
all of these new things that arehappening?
So, for instance, this year wehave some strategic committees
focusing on strategic areas ofgrowth, and they're awesome.
We have such wonderfulengagement in those committees,
(13:17):
but they're all wanting to dosomething really big and really
wonderful for the school.
And so this is an instance of.
Is it too much?
Should we just focus on onestrategic strategy that we want
to grow our school in, or shouldwe focus on maybe two, but not
(13:38):
necessarily four at the sametime?
So, I think, just being reallystrategic in how many
initiatives are happening atonce, how deep can we go, rather
than how many things can we do.
But this is not a criticism atall, because we're actually
doing some wonderful things.
Sometimes I feel like could webe doing things a bit deeper
(14:04):
first and then going to the nextthing?
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Yeah, I sometimes think and I think that's just
common in schools, right, whereyou do want to do all the things
, because you can imagine thelearning, growth and the
excitement in classrooms and Ithink that we don't give enough
time to initiatives to actuallysee if they're doing what we
(14:30):
need them to do, either right,so before the first initiative,
or even the two together, haveenough time for us to see the
growth or not.
We're already shifting to thenext thing.
I remember we used to do thisall the time in New York City.
It was like every two yearsthere was a new pilot, something
(14:51):
happening.
It was like technology or a newmath thing or new ELA program
or whatever, but you never hadtime to see, because it takes
like three to five years to seeactual progress and real growth,
but two years you're just kindof getting settled into it and
then you're like, well, that'sgone, we tried that out, but it
(15:15):
just keeps happening.
Why don't we learn that we doneed to spend a little bit more
time and go deeper with one ortwo things rather than the five
things, and sometimes I thinkthat's like you mentioned should
we focus on two strategic partsof the plan or goals and that's
(15:37):
it.
We don't need four, but wealways want to do better in all
the ways, so we make more goals.
But again, how do you find therate balance to do that Right?
Speaker 4 (15:50):
I think what's really important and I'm looking at a
different model this is thelipid-noster model for the
complex change, and I sharedthis in the notes and this is
something that really resonatedwith me.
During the summer I went to thePrincipal's Training Center and
(16:10):
this was a model that weunpacked and we thought about
this, as in the workplace and,in this instance, in the
educational workplace and forthose, if you're not looking at
the model right now, you needfor success, you need vision,
consensus, skills, incentives,resource and an action plan, and
(16:33):
if you're missing one of thosecomponents, then you have some
specific problem.
So, for instance, if you'remissing vision, then there's
confusion.
If you're missing consensus,there's sabotage, and I think
those two are really important.
With any initiative that you aredoing in a school or that you
(16:56):
are approaching in a school isthat you have vision and
consensus, and I think if peopleare pulled every which way,
it's hard to gain a consensusand it's part to share a very
common vision or to develop avery common vision.
So I think, to be successful,if you are choosing to do many,
(17:20):
many things, that vision has tobe very, very clear and very,
very concise and very shared aswell and I think to get by it's
like full on buy in.
That's so important becauseotherwise you will have
confusion and you won't have thesupport of your whole team.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
And Brené Brown always says clear is kind right.
So we have here is kind, yeah,absolutely Clear in the vision,
for sure.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
It's just reminded me .
I just finished reading thebook Nudge.
I don't know if you've seenthat one, but they talk a lot
about like opt in versus opt outsystems and how actually if you
start with like we're all doingthis unless you want to opt out
, has more uptake than if yousay, hey, is anyone interested?
(18:10):
Let me know if you'reinterested and opt in.
Do you think that has anyrelevance in our context of
schools?
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Absolutely.
I feel like in most of theschools I've been in, opt-in has
never really been a problem,because maybe just because of
the type of staff that we tendto get at different schools.
But I think that's a very goodmodel and I think I will.
Actually I'm writing it downbecause I'm going to use that
(18:39):
moving forward.
I'm going to trial it out tosee how that looks.
I'll try it out with someinitiative or something along
the way.
I don't have much else to sayabout it because I have not
tried it.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
No, it just really got me thinking of like is that
possible in a school?
I'm not.
Yeah, I haven't seen it, andthey weren't talking about our
context in the book.
Obviously they're talking aboutother things, but it just got
me thinking about it.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
We'll do part two after I've tried it out.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Let's all try it out and see what happens.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Yeah, absolutely yeah , because I do feel like I don't
know if I've been in a schoolcontext where it's like are you
opting in or out?
You just kind of have to be onboard.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Maybe that's the feeling of expectation.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Yeah, could be, but I guess it's just reframing the
thinking around it.
That's a good brain tickler.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
Yeah, so I was thinking about this and teacher
burnout and disengagement, andthis is connected to just doing
too many things.
Recently, I went to a workshopabout systems archetypes, and it
was phenomenal and it wassomething I'd never approached
before.
(19:58):
But effectively, this systemsarchetype, you have a symptom,
so a symptom is like an issue.
So, let's say, staff burnout.
Symptomatic solution is kind ofthat band-aid solution, that
very surface level solution tothe problem.
So, for instance, let's say,staff barbecue.
(20:20):
Oh, you're feeling burnt out.
Here's a staff barbecue.
The side effect of thatsymptomatic solution is, I would
say, staff are pretty much moreeven disengaged than before,
resentful, perhaps they feellike they're not being listened
(20:45):
to or heard, or their voicesmatter, and then you still have
the symptom, you still have theproblem, but you might even have
more problems connected aroundthat.
But what the system calls for,though, is a fundamental
solution.
And what is that fundamentalsolution?
Well, in this case, is italleviating that burnout by
(21:10):
putting less on the plate?
Is it something deeper?
Is there maybe a confusionabout the vision?
Is our class size is too big?
Is behavior a problem?
I don't know.
There could be a number ofproblems that are leading to the
staff burnout.
So I think it's reallyimportant to have the
(21:31):
fundamental understanding beforeyou have the fundamental
solution.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, and thinking about it thoroughly, rather than
just reacting with.
Let me bring you all a smack inthe morning and that'll fix it.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
Morning yoga yeah, you know it's tough to drink
stuff.
Barbecues are great, but itdoesn't necessarily solve the
fundamental or the symptom.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Yeah, right, exactly, it's a good feel good, maybe
for some people temporarily, butright, it doesn't resolve any
issue at all.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
And to keep the minimalist hat on, the
fundamental solution is usuallytaking.
Is that taking something awayRight?
Is it minimizing something?
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Yeah, because we know that one of my friends often
mentions like teachers don'thave plates, they have platters
and there's just so many.
It's like, right, it's asmorgasbord of like all the
things, right.
So it just is not.
I just don't really remember.
(22:45):
Well, I do remember a time whenI had that shift in thinking
like, ooh, I have a lot less onmy plate now than I used to, and
that was the move from New YorkCity to Singapore, and I was
like, ooh, this feels a lotbetter.
But I didn't know, it was athing I could feel.
But then you know, when youshift places, like you're
(23:07):
learning all the new things, youdon't have to kind of extend
yourself to committees yet or toleadership yet, because you're
just getting to know the newenvironment.
The longer you stay somewhere,that changes right.
And you do get all of thatstuff tacked back on and you're
like, damn it, how can I?
Speaker 4 (23:24):
retract, especially if you've been at a school for a
while and you are theinstitutional knowledge, you
become part of the institutionand, whether you like it or not,
that is coupled with moreresponsibility in one way or
another.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Yeah yeah, that weighs a lot.
Michelle, you have given us alot to think about.
I am going to check out moreabout the systems archetype, for
sure, and we do have to have apart too, because we have to
find out about your opt-insystem, if that is something
(24:05):
you're able to work into.
But this is from Nudge Nudge.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
yeah, it's two.
Nudge is someone, taylor andsomething else.
I'll put it in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
That's terrible.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I can never remember the letters of things.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
but yeah, it's called Nudge yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
When we all try it, we'll see how it goes.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Yes, yes, and then we'll check back in, and at the
end of a show we always ask ourguest for a pair down pointer,
so could you give us it could besomething from our conversation
, or just like something thatyou keep in mind as you work
through your day.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Less is more.
With any initiative in theclassroom as leadership in any
institution, I think you reallyhave to connect with the purpose
.
What is your purpose for beingthere, what is your guiding
statement, what is your visionand follow that, does it serve
(25:03):
that?
And just really analyze thatbefore you carry on and I wrote
one initiative at a time.
That's never possible, I'm sure, but just minimizing those
initiatives and going deeper,being clear, make it achievable
and people will feel likethey've accomplished something
(25:26):
because they will haveaccomplished something.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Thank you so much for your wisdom today, Michelle.
It's been great.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
I'm on the show.
Yeah, thank you so much forinviting me yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
And I think you know going back right to the
beginning of the show you weretalking about.
You know these leadershippositions have always been
coming your way, and I cantotally see why you've just got
this calm, caring, thoughtfulapproach to everything you do,
so I can absolutely see whythat's happened to you.
So thank you for joining us andsharing that with us today.
Well, thank you so much.
(25:57):
Today's episode was brought toyou by Plan Z Professional
Learning ServicesForward-thinking educator
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Find out more atPlanZPLServicescom.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Be sure to join Tammy and Christine and guests for
more episodes of the MinimalistEducator Podcast.
They would love to hear aboutyour journey with minimalism.
Connect with them at Plan Z PLSon Twitter or Instagram.
The music for the podcast hasbeen written and performed by
Gaia Moretti.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast, a
podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Teacher Book, TammyMusiowsky-Borniman and Christine
Arnold.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
In today's episode, we talked to Michelle about how
to handle split roles andsupporting staff in their work.
Her pared down pointer is toremember that less is more,
especially when it comes to newinitiatives.
Michelle Jocinska is anassistant principal, pyp
coordinator and teacher at amedium-sized international
school in Japan.
She's effectively in charge ofthe elementary school, has three
(00:57):
jobs and has to behypo-organized amongst the chaos
.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Welcome to this week's episode of the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
This week we have a veryspecial guest, Michelle Jocinska
, with us.
Welcome, Michelle.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Hi, thank you for welcoming to your podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
It's awesome to have you with us because, I mean, the
three of us met teaching inSingapore a few years ago and so
the three of us, you know, havelived in many different places.
You and I have that Canadianconnection, but you also have
that British Isles connectionand you're now in Japan, which
(01:39):
is where Christine used to teach.
So there's all of theseinteresting common threads.
And during that time you'vealso shifted roles too.
So the three of us wereactually teachers in the same
school and now you're in anadministrator role.
So can you talk a little bitabout your current role and then
(02:01):
that shift that you made fromteacher to admin?
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Yeah, this is something I absolutely never
wanted to do.
I have to preface this.
I always said I just never wantto be in leadership.
That just is not for me.
But here I am and it seemedlike throughout my life I've
always been handed these kind ofroles.
It's always been oh Michelle,here's a group you can be the
(02:29):
leader, or been put placedpretty intentionally with people
, whether it's in school or inother places where I know I was
meant to lead that group.
So I think it just was anatural step.
I'm currently in a school inJapan.
(02:50):
I would say it's small tomedium size.
It's kind of a growing school.
We have 400 students.
I have 200 students under me,but I have also three roles at
this school.
So I went from a teacher to aclass just responsible for a
(03:13):
small area of the school toresponsible for the curriculum
coordination.
So I'm a PYP coordinator aswell as the assistant principal
of the school and I also teach.
So, as you can imagine, this isnot a very minimalist job.
No this is a job that's anythingbut minimalist, because it just
(03:38):
has so many facets to it and Ihave so many different ways to
pull my time in every day and,as you know, as an educator no
day is the same and it can bechaotic and even with one role,
but with three roles, it seemslike this chaos is extra.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Yeah, so then how do you actually how do you section
up your week?
Does it look like?
I know, like you mentioned, noday is the same, but do you try
to section out your week so that, like, do you teach it two days
a week and then you have a dayof coordinator time?
Like how does that look for youthen?
Speaker 4 (04:22):
That's a really good question.
So the way that this isstructured is I have only the
units of inquiry for my class,so I share the role with the
principal and I've actuallywe've actually had to pull in
someone else to teach theliteracy.
So principal teaches the math,someone else teaches literacy
and I teach the unit of inquiry.
(04:43):
So I have class every day, Ihave meeting times every day
that I've pre-scheduled withevery single team and I have.
What I try to block out isadmin time.
However, I realized reallyquickly that blocking out admin
(05:03):
time doesn't necessarily work,because there are things that
happen throughout the day thatyou cannot plan for.
So I just make sure that I haveenough time to myself for one
and I have enough time toactually function running the
(05:25):
school.
So it requires.
What it requires is lookingahead and thinking kind of in
six-week chunks.
So, looking six weeks ahead,going okay, what are all the
priorities I have coming up?
What's coming up in six weeks?
Right, these are all mymust-dos now.
These are my not so urgent butwill need to be done.
(05:47):
So I use the decision-makingmatrix.
This has really helped becauseactually from that I often in my
earlier days in my admin role,I would take everything on
myself.
I would just look six weeksahead, but I would just do
absolutely every single thingthat I needed to do between that
(06:11):
point and six weeks ahead.
But where I have become a bitmore minimalist in my approach
to leadership is to actuallydelegate some of those tasks
that actually don't necessarilyneed to be connected to my role.
That can be delegated toappropriate people.
(06:34):
And I think that this isactually a pitfall of many
leaders is that they do delegatebut they're actually putting a
lot more pressure and a lot morestress, a lot more time on
their staff that they don'tnecessarily have.
So I'm also very mindful aboutwho I give this, these not so
(07:01):
time-sensitive but pretty urgenttasks to, but I need to make
sure that it's in their capacityto do it.
And so do you do, giving themchoice or it's usually connected
to either their role, if theyhave a kind of a middle
(07:24):
leadership role.
So I often will do that with mysubject area coordinators.
So if it's something that'sconnected to a unit of inquiry,
I might, I might give it to thatsubject area coordinator, or
perhaps literacy, or perhapsmath.
That's my first point of call.
So I have my kind of hierarchy.
Who should it go to?
The next is a choice.
(07:46):
There is I, who would like totake this on, and we have really
great staff and people do takeit on, but I also have to be
mindful of that it's not thesame person taking it on each
time.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
I have a lot of thoughts and I'm like which
direction do I want to go?
You can go any direction.
Yeah, I want to go back to youmentioned using the urgent,
important matrix which comesfrom, like Steven Covey, and you
see it in a bunch of places,right, and we've got an
adaptation in our book.
How often do you use that toreprioritize, because we know
(08:27):
that there are certain times ofthe year that you know
priorities change.
So how often do you use that?
Speaker 4 (08:35):
I think I should print it off and look at it
every day, but I think becauseit's in my mind now, I use it
every day.
I use it absolutely every daybecause my important not urgent
tasks I'm scheduling those.
I'm putting reminders in mycalendar.
I'm snoozing emails when I knowthat they're not important
(08:59):
right now and I will need to dothem later, because if I just
click on the email and go, I'lldo that later, I will never
remember.
When you have this many thingsgoing on, your mind can be like
a sieve and everything can justdrop right through.
I schedule those.
Anything that's urgent,important, obviously gets done
(09:21):
right away, and that's usuallywith any student-centered issues
, anything around health andsafety, any crises really Not
urgent, not important.
I had a really good thing todayand I thought what comes up
that's not urgent and notimportant?
I don't think there's manythings at school that happen
(09:45):
that aren't important becauseeven if it's a small issue that
a student has or maybe somethingthat's bothering a teacher,
that's still important becauseit's important to them.
I honestly don't even think Ilook at quadrant 4 in my
day-to-day life.
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
I've been using one of those.
It's like a Chrome extension,it's similar, but it's like must
do later, delegate, postpone.
It's a similar one, but I haveto say everything goes in the
must do.
It's really good.
It's a real problem.
I have.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
It's really hard not to take all of that on.
I love my school.
It's an amazing school.
We have amazing students, wehave amazing teachers.
But we have a syndrome that alot of smaller schools have
where we try to do it all In ourroles.
(10:50):
We try to do it all.
We have so many different rolesin one because that's just the
way small schools tend to go.
But I feel like my school is avery keen go-getter kind of
school and we try to do it allas well.
We have so many thingshappening at once.
(11:10):
I think that can be verydistracting.
Because there's just so manythings happening at once, it's
hard to grab on to what'shappening at each moment of time
because everybody wants to dosomething.
Everybody wants to have theirinitiative go ahead, everybody
(11:33):
wants to have their voice.
That's wonderful and we'recelebrating that.
However, it can be reallycomplex and quite a lot on staff
.
A leadership approach to thisis really making sure that the
system itself is supporting anenvironment that's not stressful
(11:59):
but it's not always easy.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Right?
How do you try to mitigate someof that stress?
Because it is fun.
There's a lot of shiny objectsin education, like, oh, this
thing is fun, let's try thisprogram or contest or whatever
it is.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
But how do you?
Because different people havedifferent thresholds of how much
they can juggle at the sametime.
So, yeah, how do you do that,Michelle?
Speaker 4 (12:34):
I don't think I do it very well yet.
Actually, I think just being avoice of, not reason, but a
voice of, is this too much?
Are we giving everyone enoughtime to accomplish what they
need to accomplish?
(12:54):
Are we giving everyone enoughtime to wrap their heads around
all of these new things that arehappening?
So, for instance, this year wehave some strategic committees
focusing on strategic areas ofgrowth, and they're awesome.
We have such wonderfulengagement in those committees,
(13:17):
but they're all wanting to dosomething really big and really
wonderful for the school.
And so this is an instance of.
Is it too much?
Should we just focus on onestrategic strategy that we want
to grow our school in, or shouldwe focus on maybe two, but not
(13:38):
necessarily four at the sametime?
So, I think, just being reallystrategic in how many
initiatives are happening atonce, how deep can we go, rather
than how many things can we do.
But this is not a criticism atall, because we're actually
doing some wonderful things.
Sometimes I feel like could webe doing things a bit deeper
(14:04):
first and then going to the nextthing?
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Yeah, I sometimes think and I think that's just
common in schools, right, whereyou do want to do all the things
, because you can imagine thelearning, growth and the
excitement in classrooms and Ithink that we don't give enough
time to initiatives to actuallysee if they're doing what we
(14:30):
need them to do, either right,so before the first initiative,
or even the two together, haveenough time for us to see the
growth or not.
We're already shifting to thenext thing.
I remember we used to do thisall the time in New York City.
It was like every two yearsthere was a new pilot, something
(14:51):
happening.
It was like technology or a newmath thing or new ELA program
or whatever, but you never hadtime to see, because it takes
like three to five years to seeactual progress and real growth,
but two years you're just kindof getting settled into it and
then you're like, well, that'sgone, we tried that out, but it
(15:15):
just keeps happening.
Why don't we learn that we doneed to spend a little bit more
time and go deeper with one ortwo things rather than the five
things, and sometimes I thinkthat's like you mentioned should
we focus on two strategic partsof the plan or goals and that's
(15:37):
it.
We don't need four, but wealways want to do better in all
the ways, so we make more goals.
But again, how do you find therate balance to do that Right?
Speaker 4 (15:50):
I think what's really important and I'm looking at a
different model this is thelipid-noster model for the
complex change, and I sharedthis in the notes and this is
something that really resonatedwith me.
During the summer I went to thePrincipal's Training Center and
(16:10):
this was a model that weunpacked and we thought about
this, as in the workplace and,in this instance, in the
educational workplace and forthose, if you're not looking at
the model right now, you needfor success, you need vision,
consensus, skills, incentives,resource and an action plan, and
(16:33):
if you're missing one of thosecomponents, then you have some
specific problem.
So, for instance, if you'remissing vision, then there's
confusion.
If you're missing consensus,there's sabotage, and I think
those two are really important.
With any initiative that you aredoing in a school or that you
(16:56):
are approaching in a school isthat you have vision and
consensus, and I think if peopleare pulled every which way,
it's hard to gain a consensusand it's part to share a very
common vision or to develop avery common vision.
So I think, to be successful,if you are choosing to do many,
(17:20):
many things, that vision has tobe very, very clear and very,
very concise and very shared aswell and I think to get by it's
like full on buy in.
That's so important becauseotherwise you will have
confusion and you won't have thesupport of your whole team.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
And Brené Brown always says clear is kind right.
So we have here is kind, yeah,absolutely Clear in the vision,
for sure.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
It's just reminded me .
I just finished reading thebook Nudge.
I don't know if you've seenthat one, but they talk a lot
about like opt in versus opt outsystems and how actually if you
start with like we're all doingthis unless you want to opt out
, has more uptake than if yousay, hey, is anyone interested?
(18:10):
Let me know if you'reinterested and opt in.
Do you think that has anyrelevance in our context of
schools?
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Absolutely.
I feel like in most of theschools I've been in, opt-in has
never really been a problem,because maybe just because of
the type of staff that we tendto get at different schools.
But I think that's a very goodmodel and I think I will.
Actually I'm writing it downbecause I'm going to use that
(18:39):
moving forward.
I'm going to trial it out tosee how that looks.
I'll try it out with someinitiative or something along
the way.
I don't have much else to sayabout it because I have not
tried it.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
No, it just really got me thinking of like is that
possible in a school?
I'm not.
Yeah, I haven't seen it, andthey weren't talking about our
context in the book.
Obviously they're talking aboutother things, but it just got
me thinking about it.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
We'll do part two after I've tried it out.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Let's all try it out and see what happens.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Yeah, absolutely yeah , because I do feel like I don't
know if I've been in a schoolcontext where it's like are you
opting in or out?
You just kind of have to be onboard.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Maybe that's the feeling of expectation.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Yeah, could be, but I guess it's just reframing the
thinking around it.
That's a good brain tickler.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
Yeah, so I was thinking about this and teacher
burnout and disengagement, andthis is connected to just doing
too many things.
Recently, I went to a workshopabout systems archetypes, and it
was phenomenal and it wassomething I'd never approached
before.
(19:58):
But effectively, this systemsarchetype, you have a symptom,
so a symptom is like an issue.
So, let's say, staff burnout.
Symptomatic solution is kind ofthat band-aid solution, that
very surface level solution tothe problem.
So, for instance, let's say,staff barbecue.
(20:20):
Oh, you're feeling burnt out.
Here's a staff barbecue.
The side effect of thatsymptomatic solution is, I would
say, staff are pretty much moreeven disengaged than before,
resentful, perhaps they feellike they're not being listened
(20:45):
to or heard, or their voicesmatter, and then you still have
the symptom, you still have theproblem, but you might even have
more problems connected aroundthat.
But what the system calls for,though, is a fundamental
solution.
And what is that fundamentalsolution?
Well, in this case, is italleviating that burnout by
(21:10):
putting less on the plate?
Is it something deeper?
Is there maybe a confusionabout the vision?
Is our class size is too big?
Is behavior a problem?
I don't know.
There could be a number ofproblems that are leading to the
staff burnout.
So I think it's reallyimportant to have the
(21:31):
fundamental understanding beforeyou have the fundamental
solution.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, and thinking about it thoroughly, rather than
just reacting with.
Let me bring you all a smack inthe morning and that'll fix it.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
Morning yoga yeah, you know it's tough to drink
stuff.
Barbecues are great, but itdoesn't necessarily solve the
fundamental or the symptom.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Yeah, right, exactly, it's a good feel good, maybe
for some people temporarily, butright, it doesn't resolve any
issue at all.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
And to keep the minimalist hat on, the
fundamental solution is usuallytaking.
Is that taking something awayRight?
Is it minimizing something?
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Yeah, because we know that one of my friends often
mentions like teachers don'thave plates, they have platters
and there's just so many.
It's like, right, it's asmorgasbord of like all the
things, right.
So it just is not.
I just don't really remember.
(22:45):
Well, I do remember a time whenI had that shift in thinking
like, ooh, I have a lot less onmy plate now than I used to, and
that was the move from New YorkCity to Singapore, and I was
like, ooh, this feels a lotbetter.
But I didn't know, it was athing I could feel.
But then you know, when youshift places, like you're
(23:07):
learning all the new things, youdon't have to kind of extend
yourself to committees yet or toleadership yet, because you're
just getting to know the newenvironment.
The longer you stay somewhere,that changes right.
And you do get all of thatstuff tacked back on and you're
like, damn it, how can I?
Speaker 4 (23:24):
retract, especially if you've been at a school for a
while and you are theinstitutional knowledge, you
become part of the institutionand, whether you like it or not,
that is coupled with moreresponsibility in one way or
another.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Yeah yeah, that weighs a lot.
Michelle, you have given us alot to think about.
I am going to check out moreabout the systems archetype, for
sure, and we do have to have apart too, because we have to
find out about your opt-insystem, if that is something
(24:05):
you're able to work into.
But this is from Nudge Nudge.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
yeah, it's two.
Nudge is someone, taylor andsomething else.
I'll put it in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
That's terrible.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I can never remember the letters of things.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
but yeah, it's called Nudge yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
When we all try it, we'll see how it goes.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Yes, yes, and then we'll check back in, and at the
end of a show we always ask ourguest for a pair down pointer,
so could you give us it could besomething from our conversation
, or just like something thatyou keep in mind as you work
through your day.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Less is more.
With any initiative in theclassroom as leadership in any
institution, I think you reallyhave to connect with the purpose
.
What is your purpose for beingthere, what is your guiding
statement, what is your visionand follow that, does it serve
(25:03):
that?
And just really analyze thatbefore you carry on and I wrote
one initiative at a time.
That's never possible, I'm sure, but just minimizing those
initiatives and going deeper,being clear, make it achievable
and people will feel likethey've accomplished something
(25:26):
because they will haveaccomplished something.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Thank you so much for your wisdom today, Michelle.
It's been great.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
I'm on the show.
Yeah, thank you so much forinviting me yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
And I think you know going back right to the
beginning of the show you weretalking about.
You know these leadershippositions have always been
coming your way, and I cantotally see why you've just got
this calm, caring, thoughtfulapproach to everything you do,
so I can absolutely see whythat's happened to you.
So thank you for joining us andsharing that with us today.
Well, thank you so much.
(25:57):
Today's episode was brought toyou by Plan Z Professional
Learning ServicesForward-thinking educator
support.
Find out more atPlanZPLServicescom.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Be sure to join Tammy and Christine and guests for
more episodes of the MinimalistEducator Podcast.
They would love to hear aboutyour journey with minimalism.
Connect with them at Plan Z PLSon Twitter or Instagram.
The music for the podcast hasbeen written and performed by
Gaia Moretti.
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