April 5, 2023 • 52 mins
Our guest today is a Marine Corps Veteran that has been featured on “About Face Radio,” Urban Valor, and Course of Action Podcast. He’s operates an adventure gear rental business with his wife called GOBE and is also an author of a book that helps the Veteran community through recovery through spirituality.
I’m excited to learn more about today’s guest, so let’s welcome Matt Stack to The Morning Formation Podcast.
Buy Killing Chaos Book on Amazon: https://a.co/d/fP0qciD
Join Matt on IG: https://www.instagram.com/matt_stack/
Join Matt win LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-stack-9082809/
Check Out the GOBE app: https://gobe.app/
Check out our website
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KP (00:03):
In the military, you're given a uniform and instructed
on how to do things and when todo them. But what happens when
the cadence fades and you're nolonger wearing that uniform? I'm
Kp and I started this podcast tofill that silence with direction
and to provide overall supportfor my beloved military family.
(00:25):
Welcome to the Morningformation. This episode is
powered by act now education, goto www.actnoweducation.com For
free, comprehensive educationalresources and opportunities for
active duty, veterans, militaryspouses, and children.
Matt Stack (00:47):
I think guys, there's a combination of guys
want to think about well,listen, you don't know what I've
been through. And that's true.
We don't or you don't know we'vewhat I've experienced. That's
true. We don't, but the way youfeel, I guarantee matches up if
you were to pull 100 vets in aroom, and we talked about what
we talked about on this showtoday. I would bet 90% of them
(01:08):
would all would all be likeYeah.
KP (01:24):
Warriors fall in, it's time for formation. Our guest today
is a Marine Corps veteran thathas been featured on about face
radio, urban valor, and courseof action podcast. He operates
an adventure gear rentalbusiness with his wife, and is
also an author of a book thathelps veteran the veteran
community recover throughspirituality after service. And
(01:46):
I'm excited to learn more abouttoday's guest. So I'd like to
welcome Matt stack to themorning formation podcast. Thank
you for joining us today, sir.
Matt Stack (01:54):
Thanks, man. Thanks.
Good. Glad to be on here. Thanksfor having me. And I'm excited
man.
KP (02:01):
How's the grind going this week for you?
Matt Stack (02:03):
Oh, it's good man.
You'll notice the graphic grindis good. This is my beautiful
office I designed this awesomeoffice in my house but we we
gave birth to twin babies andthis twin babies took over
everything so with our fourlittle kids running around the
house, which they may bust inany minute this is become my my
home office. So the grind isgood working, life, marriage,
(02:24):
business. I my capacitie hasgrown way beyond what I thought
I could do. So yeah, it's goodman.
KP (02:34):
Now the business that you operate the outdoor adventure
rental business, it's calledGobe.
Matt Stack (02:39):
Yep. It's called Gobie. Quick lowdown on that was
back in 2020. My wife and I weretrying to figure out where to
kind of build something of ourown, you know, and my wife was
like, you know, we had starteddoing some research on where
trends were going where peoplewere, you know, focusing their
areas and money. And that wasaround the time you couldn't
(03:00):
even find a mountain bike.
You couldn't find this outdoorgear because lockdowns people
were just scooping up stuff. Andmy wife was like, Well, why
don't we just buy a whole bunchof gear and rent it out to
people? And then that's wherethe idea hit me because I've
always been fascinated by thesecommunity fueled businesses.
So you get these Airbnbs thatdon't own real estate, but
they're the biggest real estatecompany and Facebook's not
(03:20):
producing media, but they're thebiggest media entity out there.
So we design we had the idearight then to make Gobe which
was just a way for people torent out their gear to one
another because I've rentedsnowboards before I've gotten
pieces of crap. And you know,all that. So I realized, what if
I just built like the platform,let people be able to rent the
gear that's in their garage,make money, listing out their
(03:42):
bikes, or their gear, whatever,and then built up the app. So we
built it, launched it, and someway more stressful than I
thought it was gonna be. Butit's fun, man. But yeah, Gobe
technically launched on theseventh. And so it's been fun.
KP (03:57):
But yeah, there are no, there are no shortcuts, man. I
mean, a lot of times people eventhink that starting a podcast is
going to be so easy. And it'sjust, there's nothing involved
except recording and justpublishing. But I could see
where being an adventure gearrental company, we could be very
stressful at times where you'rehaving to chase people down for
(04:19):
stuff and stuff comes backdamaged and everything else but
you saw an opportunity and yougot the means to create it. So
that's to be highly applauded.
And, you know, I understand thatyou recently wrote a book called
Killing chaos. And I want to askyou about, I guess one of the
main functionalities of thatbook when it comes to chaos in
(04:42):
general, you know, military andfirst responders typically
trained to function under fireand in chaos. So would you mind
telling us about your own MarineCorps experiences for being
trained in chaos and, and howthat state of mine affected your
own personal life? When youtransitioned out of the Marine
Corps?
Matt Stack (05:02):
Dude good question, man,
yeah, the Marine Corps is ifanyone knows that they've seen
videos of you know, the buspulling up at nighttime and a
drill instructor getting on thebus and then just the that's
when the birth of chaos ishappens right there. Like the
moment chaos is birthed is whenwe're all running on the yellow
footprints, you can't even thinkstraight. You're just yelled,
(05:23):
you're just yelled atconstantly.
And something that I found outwas it's such a purposeful means
for the training because itaccustoms men and women to war
and accustomed them to not becomplacent. And so even if even
if there was a regular routinethat had developed in boot camp
that we then could lean on aslike a comfort or security, they
(05:45):
would pull it right out fromunderneath you and change things
up. And they did it on purpose.
So you were constantly like,finally, I think one time we had
our entire squad Bay clean.
Alright, we're gonna do thisspecial field day where we move
every single bunk against thewall, and everyone's gonna scrub
the floor, and we're gonna dumpall your stuff out on the floor.
Like it was just like thatlevel. We're like, why? But I
(06:07):
realized later, like, Okay, sothat's if we go to war, and
people around you are dying leftand right, that you can get the
job done, you can stillfunction. So here's where
killing chaos came in.
I become super passionate aboutthis, because for many years
after I got out, I had a reallyhard time transitioning, I felt
(06:28):
like everybody was better at me,than everything, at everything.
Better me and relationshipsbetter than me at jobs felt like
I couldn't hold down a job. Icouldn't sit still in a room.
Always wanting to blow mypaycheck, the moment it would
come in like it was constant.
But it was subtle. Like I didn'tthink about these things. I just
did them. And it wasn't until Iwas reading a book. So long to
(06:48):
short, I got involved in achurch that became my community
became a born again, Christian.
And I had a great church, greatgroup of people. And they were
great. They had greatrelationships, great careers,
very successful. And I was like,Man, I don't get it. What is
wrong with me? Like, everyone'slike, oh, there's, you know, so
I just was like, trying tonavigate that. And the time I
(07:10):
was interning, and I read a bookcalled Ordering your Private
World, which I highlyrecommended people. And there
was a sentence in that book thatsaid, All of men's miseries
derived from him not being ableto sit in a quiet room, alone.
And I remember just gettingwrecked by that, like, thinking
(07:30):
that there's it was just me andhow I'm wired. Because when guys
get out, they start going, Ah,the civilians are fake.
Oh, I missed the Brotherhood.
You know, we start kind of goingout. Like, I don't mean it's not
that bad. Like, oh, you know,I'll kind of go back and
everyone everyone does it. But Ihad a buddy of mine, I was
working at a civilian job withand I always tell the story
about him because he was justthis marine vet. Just this big
old Viking of a man. Big olddude crude as can be, but would
(07:55):
give you the, you know, theshirt off his back. And he was
ready to he was dating this girland they were engaged. And she
was a great girl.
Like, great relationship,everything. And then suddenly he
he confesses to me one day atlunch that he's thinking of
leaving her to get back with hisex. And his ex was crazy as a
(08:15):
loon. But the sex was great. Andhe was going that. And by this
time, I'm like, Christian, so Ican obviously navigate that, you
know, those conversations andwhere our perspective and but I
remember like getting pissed andlike cussing at him and like,
being like, bro, what how do youWhy would you leave, like the
best thing that's happened toyou to go after her?
(08:37):
There's a there's a line in themovie Family Man, if you've ever
seen it, where Nicolas Cage isabout do the same thing. He's
got the great wife at home, andhe's about to go for the, you
know, the neighbor. And he'slike, Hey, don't ruin his
neighbors, like don't ruin thegreatest thing to happen you
just because you're a littleunsure about yourself. And these
were things that were just kindof constantly there.
And then I felt like God reallyopened up this door for me of
(09:01):
understanding. Right then whathe was going through because I
realized I was projecting myanger to him, was me projecting
all this stuff that I was goingthrough. And that was when the
idea of this chaos elementstarted coming into play. So
what happened is for about twoyears, when I would meet a
veteran, I became passionateabout telling them like, Hey,
(09:22):
man, I don't know if you feelthis way. But when I got out of
the Marine Corps, I constantlyfeel like destroying everything
because here, to summarize it.
The military trains us tooperate in that chaos.
Fort prepares for war. And itbecomes such a part of our daily
life that we do it every day.
And we wear it as a badge ofhonor like oh man, like when
things go wrong. Like what isthe unit? Do we just laugh? Like
(09:44):
we laugh like oh yeah, man, ofcourse. This is how it is like
and then the problem is where itdisconnects is when guys get out
when girls get out. They don'trealize it but they will
subconsciously sabotage theirlives. To get back to it, then
they don't know it. So they justget out and think that that's
how they're wired.
(10:06):
So I started sharing this one byone with veterans to see Man, am
I the only one? And one, oneafter one. I mean, like, 99% of
the time, I would see a person'sface just drop, like I just
peeked into their life. And Istarted sharing this with them
until I was at a conference inthe springs. And if I'm going
too long, let me know because Iget super passionate on this.
(10:26):
But I was at a conference herein the springs before I lived
here, and I meet this old mastersergeant and his wife, and I
start telling him this, he wasold Marine, and I was like, hey
man. I don't know if this waslike this for you.
This is how it was for me. Andhis wife just starts bawling. I
mean, like, immediately, juststarts crying in front of us.
And they both like just havedeer in the headlights, and she
(10:49):
looks at me, she goes, he's beendoing that for 25 years after he
got out. So here guys aregetting out and wrecking their
lives. And they can't make theconnection, that their training
is constantly kicking back intogear. Because the moment you
come into a peacefulenvironment, a quiet home, like
(11:09):
a loving place, something in youstarts to freak out.
You're like, something's wrong.
Like, this is not how it shouldbe. And we're trained to think
like, hey, if things are toocalm, they're too quiet. That's
not good. That's not healthy. Soguys will wreck it. But they
don't realize they're wreckingit, they just think oh, this is
how I am. No, it's not. That'snot how you are. And your
training is constantlyoverriding your life, because
(11:31):
you can have a great marriage,you can have a great life, you
can have a peaceful life. Andthat's become my mission. But
then that guy wrecked me when hegoes, Hey, man, what you said to
me was a revelation. But it'snot enough like now what do I
do? And I was like, dang you're,right? I used to think just
telling the guys the trigger wasenough, but it's not. And so
(11:51):
that's where killing chaos, theidea of it was birthed. So super
long answer your question, but Ibecome really passionate about
it.
KP (12:02):
I'm gonna have to end this interview because you're really
hitting home for me. No.
Matt Stack (12:07):
That was like, is it the connection to the connection
guy?
KP (12:09):
No, honestly, man. Yeah, what you're talking about, I've
heard over and over again. Andfor me, that chaos started. When
I was a child, it started fromchild childhood. And I guess I
kind of learned on my own, howto be resilient. And that, that
(12:32):
what you're talking about rightthere, magnified when I went
into the military, and itcontinued on when I got out. And
when I got out. And thingsbecame like you said peaceful, I
wasn't content, like I wanted tostart chaos again. And I got
into Brazilian jujitsu prettyheavily.
Once I got out of the military,I really think I danced in the
(12:55):
chaos because of being on themats. And I trained so hard,
because I loved being there. Butit's a tight, same time, it took
a huge toll on my relationships,you know, and I ended up getting
getting a divorce. And, youknow, it's something that I had
to try to understand how to beat peace with myself, and how to
(13:17):
not create that chaos. So wouldyou also say that, you know,
what, or would you also tie thisstate of resiliency training to
folks who grow up through childa childhood, and they end up
mentally surviving andphysically surviving, obviously,
in a domestically violentsituation, you know, prior to
(13:39):
even being in the military.
Matt Stack (13:41):
One 1,000% fact I was having a conversation with
the vet yesterday, who I gotconnected to, because I didn't
know someone had referred mybook to him. And him and I
connected and we've talked quitea bit. And he opened up to me
about his childhood trauma, andhow his he joined the military
as a means to kind of hone thatand use it, but now it's
(14:06):
exponentially manifested.
And so now that his relationshipgot wrecked in his life, now,
he's like navigating this worldof dealing with childhood
trauma, not to mention themilitary trauma, and now you're
tossed into a peacefulenvironment. Like, on one hand,
I'm super pissed at the militaryfor it, like, how can you guys
(14:29):
like how do you not understandthat guys are like killing
themselves because of the youcan't , you can't, you can't
just shut the valve off, like,and then expect guys to be like,
Cool. I'll drive my kid everyday at 8am to school and sit at
home and work. It doesn't worklike that. And so, but on one
hand, that the military is bredfor one purpose, and that's war,
(14:49):
so I can't I can't be too mad.
It's like that's the wholepurpose. But at the same time
when guys get out and you're notthere to show them how to
navigate, that's where I thinkis drastically different.
So I thinks of what you said100% Like the trauma manifests
itself. So here's where the realcore of killing chaos came in is
when I became a born again,Christian. There now don't get
(15:12):
me wrong that that term has awhole big spectrum to it because
I grew up Catholic bro. And thatdidn't do jack for me. And I
have my whole, like, I could goon a rant for an hour just on my
problems with the CatholicChurch. But I was a part of a
church that was big into theHoly Spirit that was big into
miracles. So like, I remembergoing to a church, witnessing my
first like real miracle, seeinglike a real exorcism take place,
(15:36):
seeing like stuff, where I'mlike, Oh, you walk away, like
the next day you're like, Isthis for real? Like? Is this
just not like a thing thatpeople talk about?
Like, because it's one thinglike, I would just go to
Catholic church every week, wecheck the box and go home and,
you know, do a regular life. Butnow it's like, Wait, this is a
real thing. And that meansthere's actual power and
(15:57):
authority there. So where thiswhole idea of killing chaos was
was how to get guys to navigatethese realms of trauma, from a
spiritual perspective, and howto have dominion over them how
to cancel these things, how forthem to how to spiritually
remove their power, becauselike, literally no kidding, like
I was on Instagram.
I don't know, like an hour ago.
And I one of the videos thatpulled up was the video of Chris
(16:18):
Kyle was from Bradley Cooperplaying Chris Kyle, where he's
where he's lined up on the kidwho picks up the RPG and he's
like, you can see his face likenavigating it. Like that's a
real life scenario, that peoplenavigate it. A buddy of mine
have the hardest time seeing akid die over over and
Afghanistan, took him years. Butwe met in the church and he was
(16:41):
able to navigate that. So mywhole point that I'm circling to
is that, let's say a guynavigates childhood trauma.
Let's say they navigate militarytrauma, all these things, when
they get out.
The VA is trying to providemental health, they're trying to
provide emotional help,financial help all these things.
But there's a very realspiritual door that's been
(17:03):
opened. And now a person istormented, or tormented in their
thoughts, they're tormented itin their minds, and their sleep,
they lose sleep.
And now this thing has a holdover them, and a control. So
where the idea of where we'recoming from a Christian
perspective is how to navigatethat trauma, really kill it,
really overcome it to where nowyou can have peace. In every
(17:25):
situation. When my dad diedseven years ago, I was able to
have the greatest peace in mylife and navigate that, because
of my understanding of God, andmy authority in Christ and how I
take authority over thosethings. So I'll go I'll go, I
have to stop, because I'll justget too passionate about and
keep going off on it. But yes,to answer your question, and
(17:47):
what it definitely manifestsexponentially when a person gets
out. Yeah, so deep stuff.
KP (17:54):
Very deep stuff, no doubt about it. And you know, I'm not
a super religious person myself,you know, I do consider myself a
Christian. And I believe thatreligion is really important.
When it when it comes to helpfinding your way when you're
lost in your own journey, youknow, whatever religion that
might be. And I just want to askyou, specifically, do you have a
(18:19):
difficult time relating tocombat veterans versus veterans
that only served in garrison?
And is there a differencebetween, I guess, helping to
guide those different types ofveterans that have had those
different types of experiences?
Or is it very similar in a senseof like, well, a person that's
(18:41):
been to combat be able to relateto your book versus a person
that hasn't been combat? Willthey both be able to relate to
your book?
Matt Stack (18:48):
Awesome question.
First part of that, yes, I 100%always battle with like the man,
well, I didn't go to combat. Sowho am I to talk to these guys.
And part of me is always like,oh, man, I wish I had seen
combat. And then immediately theother part of me is like, I'm
thankful that I didn't. Sothere's always both sides that I
war with.
But what I found is, when you'retalking about a spiritual
(19:11):
perspective of this, it doesn'tmatter if a person is combat
related and non combat related,and I think a trap because non
combat veterans are killingthemselves too, as well as
combat veterans. So the trapthat people can fall into, is
to, it's like the guy who lostone leg, looking at the guy who
lost two. It's like, is the guywho lost one leg now, should he
(19:32):
be more grateful than the guywho had like, has two? And then
the guy who only lost a finger?
Should he be more grateful?
Like, you end up with this kindof this weird scale where you're
navigating. And then should thenon combat veteran who was
sexually molested as a child butdidn't see combat? But now it's
exponentially like, we fall intothis weird trap where you're
(19:54):
like, No,
KP (19:55):
it's like an equation, right? Like, yeah, I had one
plus two plus and it's not likethat.
Matt Stack (19:59):
It's Not like that.
And so every person isdifferent. How we navigate stuff
is different how, how peoplehave navigated divorce, how they
navigated being an only childlike. So what I'm finding is i,
because of the authority thatGod has given me and how I've
been able to been trained andshown how to navigate people,
and I'm dealing with thespiritual perspective of how to
(20:19):
navigate that I feel equipped todo so. Speaking of next
Wednesday, we're launching ourcombat recovery course and I'll
be leading it but I'm walkinginto there knowing I'm staying
in my lane and my lane islisten, there's a spiritual
battle going on there is a Godthere is a devil, I can show you
how to accept Jesus how to takeauthority, like perfect example
(20:41):
I gave to someone that So realquick, I'll share this my buddy
was is a cop he got out of theMarine Corps became a cop, we
became really good friends.
And he was like, head of oursecurity team everything and he
was navigating some heavy stufffrom overseas. But he didn't, he
had come from a differentChristian perspective of like,
God is on the throne. Andeverything happens for a reason
(21:05):
and all that, all that bullshit.
Like, forgive me, like, like allthat stuff where you're like,
okay, like, Yeah, but still kidsare still getting kidnapped.
And, you know, stuff is horriblestuff is still happening. So you
can't say that. God is in chargeof everything. Because he's
notlike there's still freewill.
, So anyways, we're at thisrestaurant. And I was like,
Here, man was like, here's howif you have to understand the
(21:25):
authority in the spiritualrealm, I was like, let's say a
person walked into thisrestaurant right now and said,
Everybody put down your forksright now. Stand up and get
outside. Everybody would look athim. Like, who are you. But if
he was wearing the the uniformof police of a police officer,
and he walked in, he said, Hey,everyone, my name is Sergeant
(21:47):
stack with San Diego policedepartment killer Springfield,
whoever held up the badge andsaid, I need you all to stand up
right now, immediately leavethis restaurant, everybody would
do it. Because they canrecognize the authority that
that person carries. And theybelieve him. And it's the same
thing in the spiritual realm.
When I become a Christian, whenI've been baptized in the Holy
(22:09):
Spirit, which I go through in mybook, which some Christian
denominations are not down with.
But that's how I navigatedeverything was from a place of
authority of understanding nowthat I've walked into a kingdom,
I'm no longer like this littlepeasant ant, looking at God,
like, oh, Lord, please, youknow, may I just like, No, now I
may son, it says that I can comeboldly before the throne of
(22:33):
grace, just as someone had agreat quote, one time, they
said, there's only one person inthe kingdom, who has the balls
to wake up a king in the middleof the night and ask him for a
drink of water.
And it's his son. And that iswho we are in. So that is the
perspective that I'm trying tobring to these men and women of
understanding who you are. Like,you're a son and a daughter of
(22:55):
the king. Like, you don't haveto listen to that. And I told
these guys that are, we'rehaving the same debate one time
at a restaurant. And I told him,I was like, you don't get it. I
said, when I walk out of thisrestaurant, everything is
subject to me on a spirituallevel, because of who I am, and
who I am. And who am Iunderstanding of who I am.
(23:16):
So my kids have had nightterrors, I could tell you
demonic things that havehappened in our house, and how
literally praying those thingsoff have left. I mean, I could
literally sit here for hours,bro. Going over stuff that
that's happened, where I'm like,Dude, this is for real. So to
answer your question would bringit all back? Yes, combat non
combat won't matter. When theyread the book. They're all gonna
(23:38):
go through it. And I don't evencare about the book the books
awesome, but it's justunderstanding who they are.
Right? Yeah, again, it's a deeplevels, man. Don't get me wrong.
I'll go down on crazy tangents.
So just don't mind
KP (23:49):
me. That's okay. It's okay.
Um, I've been doing this forlike, almost two years. So I was
just talking to someone earliertoday about making sure that you
ask very specific questions whenyou're doing podcasting, because
I'm the same way dude, I will, Iwill go down the rabbit hole
like I have ABB really bad. AndI will meet you and I will be
talking about frickin outdoorgear here in a minute if I don't
(24:12):
stay on task. So yeah, I knowthyself.
But don't worry about it. You'regoing into great detail. I
really appreciate it. But goingback to what you said, Man,
whenever somebody tells me like,oh, I served in the military,
but I never got a chance to goto combat I wish I had. It
really bothers me because I'mthinking why like, why do you
wish you had like, that doesn'tdefine you as a person at all.
(24:37):
And I you know, unless you'relike Mike Glover who gets on Joe
Rogan and says, When I was achild I wanted to go to combat
looking forward to it kick asslike, yeah, man.
Like that's, I don't that's notme. Like I did not. I did not
desire to go. What did it was itsomething that I knew I was
gonna have to do? Yes, but it'sit's something that I was like,
(24:58):
you know, a a warmonger No. Andin reality, those folks that
never go like you're not missingout on anything, man, like, it
doesn't define you at all. So Iwas just wondering about that,
because we, we went through sortof a period of like, 20 years,
man, we're like, you know, tosee a combat patch or to see a
combat ribbon was very common.
And now we've kind of come outof that now. And we're at a
(25:21):
different place.
But in relation to your book,killing chaos, you know, we've
kind of talked about andunderlined it here and there.
But would you mind talking tous? About, I guess, how it can
help? Yeah, the military or thefirst responder community?
Specifically? How can we getthem to pick up this book and
(25:43):
open it up and read the firstfew chapters just to get things
rolling?
Matt Stack (25:47):
Yeah, good question, man. And I agree with you on the
combat thing. 100%. When itcomes to Yeah, the books. So the
whole idea behind the book was,and I've never written a book
before, I didn't even havedesire, like I, when I got done
with work and doing all thestuff, I'd rather just when the
kids go to bed, sit down andplay some PlayStation, and you
(26:08):
know, chill out. But I was like,Alright, I guess have to write
this write this book. I don'tknow how to do it, but I'll do
it. But I was the whole ideathat I was trying to mimic, I
guess, if you will, is Irealized that everyone in the
military, no matter what branchwe're in follows the same path
of training.
So we all have some level ofbootcamp or basic training, we
all have some level of any kindof field elements that will be
(26:29):
added, depending upon our job,or MOS, we go on to our
schooling, we go into ouradvanced schooling from there,
it's the duty stations or fleet,what they call and then there
are different billets you can dofrom there, and then there's an
honorable discharge. So there'sthis this flow that every single
military person can relate to,regardless of what they did. So
(26:49):
what I did was mimicked how itshould be with a person's walk
with God, and matched it up tothe adjoining portion of their
military training.
So I basically wrote back outthe map of like, Hey, if you're
new to God, this is where youshould start. This is where your
basic training is, hey, fromthere, this is what you're going
to want to navigate to this iswhat field training looks like
(27:12):
for person getting out. So youcan navigate that. This is what
your duty station your billetsgoing to look like and go from
there. And so we just kind ofwalk a person step by step like,
Hey, I know you're used tobasic, and then all those next
steps after this is what you'regoing to do.
And this is how you navigate.
And we've been really, I've beenreally blessed man, I, I found
(27:32):
out that there was a pastor herein the springs, who started
using my book as a mandatoryread for his veterans going
through a combat recoverycourse. And I was like, that
might be the greatest honor ofmy life like, and that he's
become a friend. And it's beenawesome to see because I've said
(27:53):
this before, and I don't likesaying it.
But I feel like it's good as Ithink I used to get mad at
Veterans when I would first getout. I think I would always be
like, Hey, why can you justfigure this out? Why can you?
Why are you not? Why is it sohard for you to just navigate
life and blah, blah, blah. Andit was the same as before, I was
just always projecting my ownjunk. But now man, like I feel
(28:13):
like I'm crying every week, likeI was calling all the guys go
into my course.
Coming up next week hearingtheir stories, what they went
through. And man, it was like,I'm like, I feel like the longer
I walk with God, the softer I'mbecoming like, it's like, every
day every day, I'm constantlylooking at situations like hey,
(28:34):
is Matt in the marine gonnarespond? Or is Matt, the man a
gardener and so on. But it'slike when it comes to veterans
now, it's like, my heart is justlike, crying left and right,
because I realized, man, theseguys are just alone. They don't
know. And one of the keyelements. So there's there's
three things essentially we'renavigating, you got killing
chaos, but really we're dealingin those course of what,
something called a soul wound.
(28:55):
A soul wound is can be like atype of trauma. And they have
different ones for regular notregular trauma, but outside of a
military world trauma, and thenthere's first responder, but
then also you've got the chaoselement. And then really what's
missing for these guys iscommunity, putting them back
into a place with people thatthey respect. Like because if
(29:18):
you tell if you tell most guyslike hey man, you want to come
to like a men's group or youwant to come to church you want
to come and sing? Like everyonehas a picture of like, you know,
like Ned Flanders in their mindlike now bro I'm good. Like,
like, give me the guy like onthe mats every week who can
submit everyone in the entireroom, but has an awesome
(29:38):
marriage.
And you know, as a warrior, andas a man that you respect and as
a as a man after God's own heartlike that's the men that when
guys get out they look at andthey go, alright, that guy I'd
follow that guy I'd be incommunity with. And I think the
church has changed in the last20 years like the church you and
I went to when we were younger.
No. The one of the, the two menwho wrecked me as I was
(30:03):
navigating this world. One ofthem was a 20 year Navy SEAL.
The other one was one of themost successful practices in San
Diego.
And they both were amazing men,and I remember him, they both
were just challenging me, like,Dude, you're not here, how you
speak about yourself andeverything. And they, they got
(30:26):
me into another book thatwrecked me. And so it's just
being around good men. Andthat's I think what's missing,
they need a brotherhood, asisterhood, whatever you want to
call it. They need communitywhen they get out a real one.
KP (30:38):
Yeah, I agree with you. 100% when it comes to that community,
and I always tell people that atleast this is what I think that
when the World War Two veteranscame back from their long siege
overseas, it was much easier toconnect with that community.
Because there was so many peopleinvolved in that. Your neighbors
were there, your your boss wasthere, everyone was there. So
(31:02):
everyone had, I came back fromIraq.
And right off the bat, Iliterally had people telling me
what was happening over therewhile they were watching it on
CNN or Fox News. And it really,it really irritated me and
pissed me off. Because I'mthinking to myself, though, I
just spent a year in my lifeover there, I was on boots on
the ground dealing with allkinds of shit. And here I have a
(31:24):
civilian sitting in front of metelling me how, or what's going
on over there in the war rightnow.
So that community that you'retalking about, and having to
having folks that also identifywith you has the the the numbers
have have lessened over theyears, I mean, it's like less
(31:44):
than what 6% ever serve in themilitary. And then it's an even
smaller percentage that Iactually go to war, or have been
to war before I experienced it.
So, you know, it's it's verydifficult to find folks that
are, I guess, able to speak mylanguage are able to understand
where I'm coming from sometimes.
(32:05):
And I agree with you 100% onthat and talking about
leadership, you know, I in insome aspect to what we're
talking about here. I reallythink that folks need to take
accountability of themselves,especially once they get out of
the military.
I know for me, I struggled foryears trying to figure out, you
know, why did I like dancing inthe chaos so much and, you know,
(32:26):
in my, my relationship, butprior to that, I struggled so
much to where I was seeingdifferent counselors on my own.
I avoided the VA, I stayed awayfrom the VA because the VA has
such a bad name to it. I did notwant to be associated with being
a crazy veteran. But I was but Iwas a crazy veteran.
(32:49):
And it kind of hit home when thedivorce was final. And my ex
told me she said, she said I'llnever get into another
relationship with a militaryperson again. And I thought I
was a little offended by that. Iwas like, we know what Screw
you, you know, but and it mademe think like, you know, should
(33:11):
I go to the VA, and I finallydid go to the VA. And I got the
help that I needed to get, Ifinally was able to connect with
a good counselor that I couldtalk to, and get the help that I
needed. But how do you feelabout the VA and with this with
the whole killing chaos and thewhole aspect of of understanding
(33:33):
that we recreate that chaosafter service?
Matt Stack (33:38):
Yeah man , that's a good question. On one hand. Like
I remember when the Shinsekiscandal happened years back, and
it was like I remember trying toget appointments at the San
Diego VA took forever. And thenafter that scandal and down it
was like, man, they were callingme to make appointments. And it
was like I want and I was likegood. Some stuff is getting
fixed here. But on the otherhand, it's a nightmare.
(34:00):
And I think I mean, thegovernment runs anything. It's a
nightmare. But I think I like Ireached out to the mental health
team at the VA. Like becausewhatever reason you know, they
don't you don't get muchresponse in just navigating
this, even some other greatentities because because I'm
(34:20):
bringing this from a spiritualperspective. That to me is the
key. That's the missing link.
That is the thing that helpsguys navigate this.
Like there's great things outthere but until you can navigate
this from a spiritualperspective, it's like bringing
a knife to a gunfight. You,there are humongous doors that
have been opened. And I'mpromising you there's there's
(34:42):
only one way to close them. AndI've seen it again and again.
And so for me the VA on someaspects, I think is improved but
on others they suck like I'mlike so I mean I feel torn to be
honest with you. I still I stilluse the VA still talk with them
like I still go to myappointments. So I think it's a
love hate. There was a videothat I just saw, I don't even
(35:04):
know where it came from it wasfrom a movie of some young kid
walking up to a desk.
And he said he wants to killhimself. And the girls like,
okay, fill out this form. Shehands him a form. And I sent it
to one of my buddies who runs apodcast, and he was like, bro,
that is the VA. And I was like,I know, like, I had a real quick
(35:28):
story. I had a, my mother in lawmet this guy recently, a few
weeks back at like thechiropractor. And he, she starts
telling him, finds out that he'sa vet wants to write a book,
she's Oh, my gosh, my son in lawwrote a book, blah, blah, blah.
And so they give me my somehow Iget in touch this guy. She gives
him my number he calls me. I waslike, Cool, no problem, man.
(35:50):
Like, absolutely, I'll help you.
And then I met up for him forlunch. Like I went to lunch with
them.
And I had no idea he was likemassively struggling with
suicide, really going like in adark, dark path. And man, I'm
like, Man, I thought this guywas like, in a good place this
and this, I had no idea. He'sstill struggling. And then now
once he mentioned suicide, like,I'm now on the legal hook for
(36:14):
making sure he's connected tothe right person, like,
immediately. So now I'mscrambling trying to get him the
right place. And I remembergoing down a rabbit hole,
because he didn't want to godown the road of the VA. He was
like, no, like, do not want togo there. And I remember
connecting him with someoneimmediately. That took like
three levels deep to get to thisperson.
And it was really annoying. Andthen when they finally get on
(36:37):
the phone with him, I'm threewayed on the phone with him.
Like the first question. Theywere like, they asked him what
his pronouns were. And he wasdone. He was like, that was it.
Like, didn't want to talk anymore like, and I was like, dude,
like, this is, I was justfloored.
And then I felt like an asslike, because now I'm trying to
(36:59):
get him the right help. And soobviously, like, things are
better now. And I was able toconnect him with some other
people and, but it was justlike, on one hand, I think
you're right. I don't think guyswant to. I don't think guys want
to go down that because everyonethinks they're, it's like, they
picture like a stamp that'sgonna go on their file, and that
(37:20):
everyone will know, right there.
Every time they call this guystruggles with suicide. But the
problem is tons of guys arestruggling with suicide, and
it's not connected to theiridentity. That's the problem is
guys are connecting the way thatthey are and the way that they
operate to their personality.
It's not your personality, yourpersonality, wouldn't want to
(37:41):
destroy your marriage, yourpersonality, wouldn't want to
just wreck everything aroundyou. I was getting my hair cut
from a dude. Not long ago, and Istarted talking to my start
telling he found out he's amarine and like Marine infantry
vet, start telling about thechaos thing, and he stops. And
he goes, bro, every day, I feellike grabbing this chair and
(38:03):
smashing the place to pieces.
And I was like, It's not you,man. That is not you.
Like, that is just how you'vebeen growing. You can't spend
you can't put guys in that kindof environment for years, and
then not see it bleed out into apeaceful situation. Because the
truth is, my wife doesn't needlike my wife, the type of love
(38:27):
that my wife needs is differentthan the type of love I need.
And the type of love my familyneeds is different than the type
of love I need. Like, I can't becoming downstairs and just
shaking up the nest every day.
And thinking that they're goingto be like, sweet, no problem.
Like we'll do this. Like, thathas effects. But then the
problem is, is when guys do it,they feel like a failure. They
(38:50):
think there's something wrongwith them.
They think it's me, I'm broken,Hey man. We're all broken. But
where this whole cast elementis, is like, listen, there is a
reason that you're operatingthis way. And it could be if a
person was abused, now they thensubsequently have to feel like
(39:12):
they are in control at alltimes. So they will become an
over controlling person with anA type personality. They might
have been hurt by someone orabandoned by a mother.
they do, they will get wrecked.
Bro I was my wife and I domarriage counseling every other
(39:33):
week. And we feel like we have agreat marriage 11 years for
kids. But I'm like, dude, evenlike two weeks ago we get done
with a thing we're both cryingbecause I'm like still dealing
with like some of my junk andlike helping a counselor deal
with it.
And even though I feel like wegot a great thing like. So I
think there's a deeper world andit wrecks me to see guys like
(39:56):
have things go wrong in theirlife and then they walk away
thinking they....Don't get mewrong, everyone's responsible. I
can't just say, hey, it's notyour fault. It's all this fault.
Like everyone has to takeresponsibility for their junk.
But there's a reason it gets tothat point is my guess what I'm
trying to say?
KP (40:11):
Yeah, no doubt man I, I grew up with a father who served in
the military for 20 years,drafted in 71. And even to this
day, recently, we got into aconversation on whether or not
whether or not counselorcounseling is bullshit. He's the
kind of, he's the kind ofveteran that literally went to a
(40:32):
counselor once and walked out,like and never went back. And
it's, it's tough man, becausethat's a whole different era in
itself of time when people justthought counselors are bullshit.
And psychologists are bullshit.
And they just keep everything toyourself, and let it fester up.
And as far as shaking the nestup that you were talking about,
it's important for veterans outthere to look in the mirror and
(40:55):
recognize and realize thatsometimes you may be the problem
that's creating the fire.
And that was certainly somebodythat I was I was constantly
shaking the nest, and I wasconstantly trying to create that
chaos that I was so comfortablewith being in at the time. So
(41:16):
learning how to control that wasreally important for me, and I
think that your book in itself,man really, really hits home.
For me, and I'm sure for manyveterans that are going to be
listening and military spousesthat are going to be listening
to this podcast, specifically.
And just wanted to ask you, youknow, everyone's out there,
talking about 22 A day. I seepeople out there doing push ups
(41:38):
and whatever else like, to me,it's, I don't know, I think it's
a waste of time.
But it's important to talk aboutit, it's important to understand
it, but all the other stuff thatcomes with it, the push ups and
all that crap, like I don't playthat. I don't, I think it's
bullshit. But the 22 a day is avery important thing, though, in
itself to understand that we'rea very small percentage, but we
(41:59):
have very high suicide rates. Doyou feel that this specific
thing that we're talking abouthere? Shaking the nest, creating
chaos, being in the chaos, beingcomfortable in the chaos? Do you
feel like that attributes a lotto that high suicide rate that
we have
Matt Stack (42:15):
100%. And I'm not, I'm not, I guess you could say
educated enough for certifiedenough if you want to say to
maybe put a conclusion on it.
But man Gosh, from, from whatI've seen it, I think it's a
that's a huge part of it. Ithink it's like a like, I think
of it like a concoction. You getsomeone who's battled with
(42:36):
abandonment, trauma, all theseelements, and then you mix in
military service, then you putthem into civilian environments
where they can't navigateemotional, the same emotional
ways that other people do.
And you add in all these things.
And then it manifests itself indifferent ways. So now you have
(43:00):
a person who's dealt withabandonment, they dealt with the
trauma, they dealt with allthese things, now they get out,
and they don't want to makeconnections, because they're
thinking these civilans aregonna be fake, they're not going
to understand me, I don't wantto connect to this person,
because they're not going tounderstand me, well, now they're
secluded, now they're isolated.
Now they feel alone. And I thinkit's just this pattern.
Like, it's like a formula thatjust keeps playing out. So that
(43:22):
what you would really want tosee happen is, it's like, you
gotta go back to the tree, yougot to go back to when guys are
getting out, there has to besomething in place for, you
know, what I got, you know, mytransition was? Was the dude who
came in and showed us how tocollect unemployment in two
different states. That was my,that was my get out of the
Marine Corps class. But hey,here's how you can actually
(43:45):
navigate the system and collectunemployment to two places that
was it. And the next thing onwaiting tables, I got involved
in some network marketingscheme. Dude, the head dude goes
to prison.
I'm like, maybe this is a scam.
Maybe this is bad. Like so toanswer your Yeah, I think I
think it's massively attributingI have a hard time seeing guys
go through the elements of like,really accepting Jesus really
(44:10):
navigating their trauma, reallybeing able to and there's a myth
when I say navigating thetrauma, there's a, I don't want
to go too deep into it.
But there is a way to do thatlike to actually do it. And I've
done it and man neverexperienced anything like it in
my life. But now those thingsdon't have a hold over me. I now
have a hold of them. I am now incontrol those things don't hold
(44:33):
me. And so yeah, I think it'sattributing huge
KP (44:38):
Yeah, definitely. I don't have the stats on this. But I
would also venture to say thatthe majority of the folks that
join the military, left themilitary, served in the
military, do not come from thebest home situations, including
myself. You know, whether it'ssingle parent homes, split home,
domestically violent homes,you're you're joining the
(44:59):
military to just Get away fromyour situation, whatever the
case is, and you spend yourentire childhood teenage years
learning to be resilient andjust toughing it out without any
understanding of what you'redoing, then you join the
military, you add more chaos tothat. And then from there, you
get out.
And then we talk about that 22 aday, which is a very high
(45:21):
statistic for our smallcommunity. I would say that
dancing in the chaos, if it'ssomething that you've been doing
for over 20, some years, toinclude your childhood.
And you just stack more on topof that. And you're wondering
why you're just jumping fromrelationship to relationship
from job to job, why no oneunderstands you. I really think
(45:43):
that the whole concept of thisbook really hits a mark on why
we have such a high suiciderate. And it has to do with how,
understanding how to switch thatchaos off, and how to be at
peace with yourself. And when Ihonestly was contacted by you,
I'm gonna be honest with you, Ithought, oh, here we go. Another
(46:04):
author another book, blah, blah,blah.
Okay, let me see what this isabout. When I went on to Amazon
and I saw, you know, what thiswas about, and, you know, the,
the understanding of the dailylife chaos effects, you know, in
that we go through in training,and then in combat, and then
coming out here to civilianworld. I thought, Wow, this,
(46:26):
this looks interesting. Like, Iwould like to talk to this
author a little bit deeper.
And I really appreciate yougiving me the opportunity and
giving this audience anopportunity as well, to learn
more about you, Matt, because,you know, the the book that you
have is is definitely somethingthat I think a lot of veterans
out there who are havingdifficulties in their
relationships outside of theservice, or even while you're in
(46:48):
service, or even our firstresponders out there.
Yeah, this is definitely a greatread. And just to give you an
opportunity, man, if folks outthere want to follow up with
you, on you know, contact youfor anything that you mentioned
today, what social mediaplatforms are you on? And where
can they find your book?
Matt Stack (47:06):
I'm on Instagram, really, I'm just on Instagram, I
don't have a Facebook. But man,if you're out there and you're
struggling like Guys, guys, Ihate calling people Man, I hate
it more than anything, but I'lltext them, I'll message
someone. So if you, someone'sout there struggling with
suicide, you're going like, bro,you can message me man go on,
Matt underscore stack is myInstagram. It's the only one I
(47:28):
use not beside the business one.
But Matt underscore stack, likethat. I'm not trying to create
like a new thing here.
Like there's, there's a ton ofgreat organizations out there.
Like ultimately, what I want todo is have a way when guys read
it to where they can get pluggedinto an awesome community, like
work with churches in the areaknowing which are which I
(47:50):
consider a great church, whichones avoid, and then going to
the ones where it guys can get agreat community again, and get
that back because it's a I thinkit starts it starts with a
relationship with Jesus.
But like, if to end this,there's a lot of behaviors and
patterns that have to be workedout. I was massively addicted to
(48:10):
porn, getting into my marriage.
Well, that didn't go over sowell with my wife at first. It
shattered her and now I had tonavigate this other world with
another person by my side. Sothere's tons of things that guys
struggle with alone. But Ipromise it's not struggle that
you're dealing with alonebecause a lot of guys do it. And
that's how we we battle it outtogether. So Matt underscore
(48:33):
stack that can hit me up. Anddude, KP you got a new guy, new
friend out in Colorado Springs,bro. Yeah.
KP (48:40):
I really appreciate it, man.
And listen to what he just said,Don't be embarrassed about your
situation, whether it'ssomething mental that you're
going through. Or maybe it'slike, like he just mentioned
right now with the issue thatyou had with porn, like, Listen,
if you're, if you're goingthrough it, you're not going
through it alone.
There's folks out there likemyself, there's folks out there
like Matt, folks within thecommunity that are more than
willing to talk to you, but thenalso reference you into the
(49:04):
right direction to get you theexpert help that you need. And
that just to round things off,and I just want to mention this
too.
For all knuckleheads out there,like myself who hate to read
books. This is only sixty sixpages. This is only 66 pages
long, right?
Matt Stack (49:19):
Oh, it's only 66.
Dude my wife gives me so muchcrap all the time. Like you need
to go, Vets don't like to readbooks, you need to go and do the
audio book. I'm like, I know.
KP (49:28):
I mean, 66 pages. Guys, if you can't get through that.
Yeah, if you can't get throughthat, then you got some real
real world issues here. 66 pagesis not all that much. It's
definitely worth taking a lookat it probably gets straight,
concise to the point. So whichis the kind of reading that I
like to do, but just to roundthings off, Matt. And to finish
(49:48):
off the podcast. Do you have anyadvice out there for folks
within our military community?
Matt Stack (49:54):
That's a good question. Probably just a re
summarization of kind ofeverything went through it. Say,
the message that I wouldprobably leave for a veteran is
like how you feel is not tied toyour personality and how you
feel is not tied to you alone.
Like, I think, guys, there's acombination of guys want to
think about well, listen, youdon't know what I've been
(50:15):
through. And that's true.
We don't, or you don't knowwe've what I've experienced.
That's true. We don't. But theway you feel, I guarantee
matches up. If you were to pull100 vets in a room, and we
talked about what we talkedabout on this show today.
I would bet 90% of them wouldall would all be like, yeah,
(50:38):
yeah. Like and so I would say,you've got to, like I get choked
up , I would say you got you gotto fight it out a little longer.
Like, go another day. Like,because I promise like, one
thing I've learned about God andmy walk with God is that He is
(51:00):
the greatest I guess Turner ofthings horrible into things that
are beautiful.
Like I've seen guys that I knowwho've done the worst things,
and horrible things, and getslike God takes it and switches
it around. And so much of us islike we think we don't want
that. Like we want it we want tolike shroud ourselves in the
darkness. Telling you , man cometo the light. Because the life
(51:24):
that you want, the marriage youwant, the family you want, the
business you want, all thosethings like, you can have those
things like, let's deal withthis stuff. Let's go another
day. Let's fight it out. Let'sget the right community. And
it's right there on the otherside, man.
KP (51:39):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Definitely that it's a greatconversation, Matt, I really
appreciate you letting us in towhat killing chaos is all about
and letting us learn a littlebit more about you as well. I
really appreciate you giving usthat chance. So thank you so
much for the time.
And I want to thank the audienceas well. Thank you for listening
(51:59):
to the morning formationpodcast, another great episode
tied up here with Matt stack,make sure you follow Him. If you
(52:58):
want to check it out down on theshow notes. I will put his
Instagram down there as well aswhere you can find his book on
Amazon and any other pertinentways that you can contact Matt.
(53:20):
But for now, as always, to myaudience, I want you to stay
tuned, stay focused, and staymotivated. Warriors fall out.
In the military, you're given a uniform and instructed
on how to do things and when todo them. But what happens when
the cadence fades and you're nolonger wearing that uniform? I'm
Kp and I started this podcast tofill that silence with direction
and to provide overall supportfor my beloved military family.
(00:25):
Welcome to the Morningformation. This episode is
powered by act now education, goto www.actnoweducation.com For
free, comprehensive educationalresources and opportunities for
active duty, veterans, militaryspouses, and children.
Matt Stack (00:47):
I think guys, there's a combination of guys
want to think about well,listen, you don't know what I've
been through. And that's true.
We don't or you don't know we'vewhat I've experienced. That's
true. We don't, but the way youfeel, I guarantee matches up if
you were to pull 100 vets in aroom, and we talked about what
we talked about on this showtoday. I would bet 90% of them
(01:08):
would all would all be likeYeah.
KP (01:24):
Warriors fall in, it's time for formation. Our guest today
is a Marine Corps veteran thathas been featured on about face
radio, urban valor, and courseof action podcast. He operates
an adventure gear rentalbusiness with his wife, and is
also an author of a book thathelps veteran the veteran
community recover throughspirituality after service. And
(01:46):
I'm excited to learn more abouttoday's guest. So I'd like to
welcome Matt stack to themorning formation podcast. Thank
you for joining us today, sir.
Matt Stack (01:54):
Thanks, man. Thanks.
Good. Glad to be on here. Thanksfor having me. And I'm excited
man.
KP (02:01):
How's the grind going this week for you?
Matt Stack (02:03):
Oh, it's good man.
You'll notice the graphic grindis good. This is my beautiful
office I designed this awesomeoffice in my house but we we
gave birth to twin babies andthis twin babies took over
everything so with our fourlittle kids running around the
house, which they may bust inany minute this is become my my
home office. So the grind isgood working, life, marriage,
(02:24):
business. I my capacitie hasgrown way beyond what I thought
I could do. So yeah, it's goodman.
KP (02:34):
Now the business that you operate the outdoor adventure
rental business, it's calledGobe.
Matt Stack (02:39):
Yep. It's called Gobie. Quick lowdown on that was
back in 2020. My wife and I weretrying to figure out where to
kind of build something of ourown, you know, and my wife was
like, you know, we had starteddoing some research on where
trends were going where peoplewere, you know, focusing their
areas and money. And that wasaround the time you couldn't
(03:00):
even find a mountain bike.
You couldn't find this outdoorgear because lockdowns people
were just scooping up stuff. Andmy wife was like, Well, why
don't we just buy a whole bunchof gear and rent it out to
people? And then that's wherethe idea hit me because I've
always been fascinated by thesecommunity fueled businesses.
So you get these Airbnbs thatdon't own real estate, but
they're the biggest real estatecompany and Facebook's not
(03:20):
producing media, but they're thebiggest media entity out there.
So we design we had the idearight then to make Gobe which
was just a way for people torent out their gear to one
another because I've rentedsnowboards before I've gotten
pieces of crap. And you know,all that. So I realized, what if
I just built like the platform,let people be able to rent the
gear that's in their garage,make money, listing out their
(03:42):
bikes, or their gear, whatever,and then built up the app. So we
built it, launched it, and someway more stressful than I
thought it was gonna be. Butit's fun, man. But yeah, Gobe
technically launched on theseventh. And so it's been fun.
KP (03:57):
But yeah, there are no, there are no shortcuts, man. I
mean, a lot of times people eventhink that starting a podcast is
going to be so easy. And it'sjust, there's nothing involved
except recording and justpublishing. But I could see
where being an adventure gearrental company, we could be very
stressful at times where you'rehaving to chase people down for
(04:19):
stuff and stuff comes backdamaged and everything else but
you saw an opportunity and yougot the means to create it. So
that's to be highly applauded.
And, you know, I understand thatyou recently wrote a book called
Killing chaos. And I want to askyou about, I guess one of the
main functionalities of thatbook when it comes to chaos in
(04:42):
general, you know, military andfirst responders typically
trained to function under fireand in chaos. So would you mind
telling us about your own MarineCorps experiences for being
trained in chaos and, and howthat state of mine affected your
own personal life? When youtransitioned out of the Marine
Corps?
Matt Stack (05:02):
Dude good question, man,
yeah, the Marine Corps is ifanyone knows that they've seen
videos of you know, the buspulling up at nighttime and a
drill instructor getting on thebus and then just the that's
when the birth of chaos ishappens right there. Like the
moment chaos is birthed is whenwe're all running on the yellow
footprints, you can't even thinkstraight. You're just yelled,
(05:23):
you're just yelled atconstantly.
And something that I found outwas it's such a purposeful means
for the training because itaccustoms men and women to war
and accustomed them to not becomplacent. And so even if even
if there was a regular routinethat had developed in boot camp
that we then could lean on aslike a comfort or security, they
(05:45):
would pull it right out fromunderneath you and change things
up. And they did it on purpose.
So you were constantly like,finally, I think one time we had
our entire squad Bay clean.
Alright, we're gonna do thisspecial field day where we move
every single bunk against thewall, and everyone's gonna scrub
the floor, and we're gonna dumpall your stuff out on the floor.
Like it was just like thatlevel. We're like, why? But I
(06:07):
realized later, like, Okay, sothat's if we go to war, and
people around you are dying leftand right, that you can get the
job done, you can stillfunction. So here's where
killing chaos came in.
I become super passionate aboutthis, because for many years
after I got out, I had a reallyhard time transitioning, I felt
(06:28):
like everybody was better at me,than everything, at everything.
Better me and relationshipsbetter than me at jobs felt like
I couldn't hold down a job. Icouldn't sit still in a room.
Always wanting to blow mypaycheck, the moment it would
come in like it was constant.
But it was subtle. Like I didn'tthink about these things. I just
did them. And it wasn't until Iwas reading a book. So long to
(06:48):
short, I got involved in achurch that became my community
became a born again, Christian.
And I had a great church, greatgroup of people. And they were
great. They had greatrelationships, great careers,
very successful. And I was like,Man, I don't get it. What is
wrong with me? Like, everyone'slike, oh, there's, you know, so
I just was like, trying tonavigate that. And the time I
(07:10):
was interning, and I read a bookcalled Ordering your Private
World, which I highlyrecommended people. And there
was a sentence in that book thatsaid, All of men's miseries
derived from him not being ableto sit in a quiet room, alone.
And I remember just gettingwrecked by that, like, thinking
(07:30):
that there's it was just me andhow I'm wired. Because when guys
get out, they start going, Ah,the civilians are fake.
Oh, I missed the Brotherhood.
You know, we start kind of goingout. Like, I don't mean it's not
that bad. Like, oh, you know,I'll kind of go back and
everyone everyone does it. But Ihad a buddy of mine, I was
working at a civilian job withand I always tell the story
about him because he was justthis marine vet. Just this big
old Viking of a man. Big olddude crude as can be, but would
(07:55):
give you the, you know, theshirt off his back. And he was
ready to he was dating this girland they were engaged. And she
was a great girl.
Like, great relationship,everything. And then suddenly he
he confesses to me one day atlunch that he's thinking of
leaving her to get back with hisex. And his ex was crazy as a
(08:15):
loon. But the sex was great. Andhe was going that. And by this
time, I'm like, Christian, so Ican obviously navigate that, you
know, those conversations andwhere our perspective and but I
remember like getting pissed andlike cussing at him and like,
being like, bro, what how do youWhy would you leave, like the
best thing that's happened toyou to go after her?
(08:37):
There's a there's a line in themovie Family Man, if you've ever
seen it, where Nicolas Cage isabout do the same thing. He's
got the great wife at home, andhe's about to go for the, you
know, the neighbor. And he'slike, Hey, don't ruin his
neighbors, like don't ruin thegreatest thing to happen you
just because you're a littleunsure about yourself. And these
were things that were just kindof constantly there.
And then I felt like God reallyopened up this door for me of
(09:01):
understanding. Right then whathe was going through because I
realized I was projecting myanger to him, was me projecting
all this stuff that I was goingthrough. And that was when the
idea of this chaos elementstarted coming into play. So
what happened is for about twoyears, when I would meet a
veteran, I became passionateabout telling them like, Hey,
(09:22):
man, I don't know if you feelthis way. But when I got out of
the Marine Corps, I constantlyfeel like destroying everything
because here, to summarize it.
The military trains us tooperate in that chaos.
Fort prepares for war. And itbecomes such a part of our daily
life that we do it every day.
And we wear it as a badge ofhonor like oh man, like when
things go wrong. Like what isthe unit? Do we just laugh? Like
(09:44):
we laugh like oh yeah, man, ofcourse. This is how it is like
and then the problem is where itdisconnects is when guys get out
when girls get out. They don'trealize it but they will
subconsciously sabotage theirlives. To get back to it, then
they don't know it. So they justget out and think that that's
how they're wired.
(10:06):
So I started sharing this one byone with veterans to see Man, am
I the only one? And one, oneafter one. I mean, like, 99% of
the time, I would see a person'sface just drop, like I just
peeked into their life. And Istarted sharing this with them
until I was at a conference inthe springs. And if I'm going
too long, let me know because Iget super passionate on this.
(10:26):
But I was at a conference herein the springs before I lived
here, and I meet this old mastersergeant and his wife, and I
start telling him this, he wasold Marine, and I was like, hey
man. I don't know if this waslike this for you.
This is how it was for me. Andhis wife just starts bawling. I
mean, like, immediately, juststarts crying in front of us.
And they both like just havedeer in the headlights, and she
(10:49):
looks at me, she goes, he's beendoing that for 25 years after he
got out. So here guys aregetting out and wrecking their
lives. And they can't make theconnection, that their training
is constantly kicking back intogear. Because the moment you
come into a peacefulenvironment, a quiet home, like
(11:09):
a loving place, something in youstarts to freak out.
You're like, something's wrong.
Like, this is not how it shouldbe. And we're trained to think
like, hey, if things are toocalm, they're too quiet. That's
not good. That's not healthy. Soguys will wreck it. But they
don't realize they're wreckingit, they just think oh, this is
how I am. No, it's not. That'snot how you are. And your
training is constantlyoverriding your life, because
(11:31):
you can have a great marriage,you can have a great life, you
can have a peaceful life. Andthat's become my mission. But
then that guy wrecked me when hegoes, Hey, man, what you said to
me was a revelation. But it'snot enough like now what do I
do? And I was like, dang you're,right? I used to think just
telling the guys the trigger wasenough, but it's not. And so
(11:51):
that's where killing chaos, theidea of it was birthed. So super
long answer your question, but Ibecome really passionate about
it.
KP (12:02):
I'm gonna have to end this interview because you're really
hitting home for me. No.
Matt Stack (12:07):
That was like, is it the connection to the connection
guy?
KP (12:09):
No, honestly, man. Yeah, what you're talking about, I've
heard over and over again. Andfor me, that chaos started. When
I was a child, it started fromchild childhood. And I guess I
kind of learned on my own, howto be resilient. And that, that
(12:32):
what you're talking about rightthere, magnified when I went
into the military, and itcontinued on when I got out. And
when I got out. And thingsbecame like you said peaceful, I
wasn't content, like I wanted tostart chaos again. And I got
into Brazilian jujitsu prettyheavily.
Once I got out of the military,I really think I danced in the
(12:55):
chaos because of being on themats. And I trained so hard,
because I loved being there. Butit's a tight, same time, it took
a huge toll on my relationships,you know, and I ended up getting
getting a divorce. And, youknow, it's something that I had
to try to understand how to beat peace with myself, and how to
(13:17):
not create that chaos. So wouldyou also say that, you know,
what, or would you also tie thisstate of resiliency training to
folks who grow up through childa childhood, and they end up
mentally surviving andphysically surviving, obviously,
in a domestically violentsituation, you know, prior to
(13:39):
even being in the military.
Matt Stack (13:41):
One 1,000% fact I was having a conversation with
the vet yesterday, who I gotconnected to, because I didn't
know someone had referred mybook to him. And him and I
connected and we've talked quitea bit. And he opened up to me
about his childhood trauma, andhow his he joined the military
as a means to kind of hone thatand use it, but now it's
(14:06):
exponentially manifested.
And so now that his relationshipgot wrecked in his life, now,
he's like navigating this worldof dealing with childhood
trauma, not to mention themilitary trauma, and now you're
tossed into a peacefulenvironment. Like, on one hand,
I'm super pissed at the militaryfor it, like, how can you guys
(14:29):
like how do you not understandthat guys are like killing
themselves because of the youcan't , you can't, you can't
just shut the valve off, like,and then expect guys to be like,
Cool. I'll drive my kid everyday at 8am to school and sit at
home and work. It doesn't worklike that. And so, but on one
hand, that the military is bredfor one purpose, and that's war,
(14:49):
so I can't I can't be too mad.
It's like that's the wholepurpose. But at the same time
when guys get out and you're notthere to show them how to
navigate, that's where I thinkis drastically different.
So I thinks of what you said100% Like the trauma manifests
itself. So here's where the realcore of killing chaos came in is
when I became a born again,Christian. There now don't get
(15:12):
me wrong that that term has awhole big spectrum to it because
I grew up Catholic bro. And thatdidn't do jack for me. And I
have my whole, like, I could goon a rant for an hour just on my
problems with the CatholicChurch. But I was a part of a
church that was big into theHoly Spirit that was big into
miracles. So like, I remembergoing to a church, witnessing my
first like real miracle, seeinglike a real exorcism take place,
(15:36):
seeing like stuff, where I'mlike, Oh, you walk away, like
the next day you're like, Isthis for real? Like? Is this
just not like a thing thatpeople talk about?
Like, because it's one thinglike, I would just go to
Catholic church every week, wecheck the box and go home and,
you know, do a regular life. Butnow it's like, Wait, this is a
real thing. And that meansthere's actual power and
(15:57):
authority there. So where thiswhole idea of killing chaos was
was how to get guys to navigatethese realms of trauma, from a
spiritual perspective, and howto have dominion over them how
to cancel these things, how forthem to how to spiritually
remove their power, becauselike, literally no kidding, like
I was on Instagram.
I don't know, like an hour ago.
And I one of the videos thatpulled up was the video of Chris
(16:18):
Kyle was from Bradley Cooperplaying Chris Kyle, where he's
where he's lined up on the kidwho picks up the RPG and he's
like, you can see his face likenavigating it. Like that's a
real life scenario, that peoplenavigate it. A buddy of mine
have the hardest time seeing akid die over over and
Afghanistan, took him years. Butwe met in the church and he was
(16:41):
able to navigate that. So mywhole point that I'm circling to
is that, let's say a guynavigates childhood trauma.
Let's say they navigate militarytrauma, all these things, when
they get out.
The VA is trying to providemental health, they're trying to
provide emotional help,financial help all these things.
But there's a very realspiritual door that's been
(17:03):
opened. And now a person istormented, or tormented in their
thoughts, they're tormented itin their minds, and their sleep,
they lose sleep.
And now this thing has a holdover them, and a control. So
where the idea of where we'recoming from a Christian
perspective is how to navigatethat trauma, really kill it,
really overcome it to where nowyou can have peace. In every
(17:25):
situation. When my dad diedseven years ago, I was able to
have the greatest peace in mylife and navigate that, because
of my understanding of God, andmy authority in Christ and how I
take authority over thosethings. So I'll go I'll go, I
have to stop, because I'll justget too passionate about and
keep going off on it. But yes,to answer your question, and
(17:47):
what it definitely manifestsexponentially when a person gets
out. Yeah, so deep stuff.
KP (17:54):
Very deep stuff, no doubt about it. And you know, I'm not
a super religious person myself,you know, I do consider myself a
Christian. And I believe thatreligion is really important.
When it when it comes to helpfinding your way when you're
lost in your own journey, youknow, whatever religion that
might be. And I just want to askyou, specifically, do you have a
(18:19):
difficult time relating tocombat veterans versus veterans
that only served in garrison?
And is there a differencebetween, I guess, helping to
guide those different types ofveterans that have had those
different types of experiences?
Or is it very similar in a senseof like, well, a person that's
(18:41):
been to combat be able to relateto your book versus a person
that hasn't been combat? Willthey both be able to relate to
your book?
Matt Stack (18:48):
Awesome question.
First part of that, yes, I 100%always battle with like the man,
well, I didn't go to combat. Sowho am I to talk to these guys.
And part of me is always like,oh, man, I wish I had seen
combat. And then immediately theother part of me is like, I'm
thankful that I didn't. Sothere's always both sides that I
war with.
But what I found is, when you'retalking about a spiritual
(19:11):
perspective of this, it doesn'tmatter if a person is combat
related and non combat related,and I think a trap because non
combat veterans are killingthemselves too, as well as
combat veterans. So the trapthat people can fall into, is
to, it's like the guy who lostone leg, looking at the guy who
lost two. It's like, is the guywho lost one leg now, should he
(19:32):
be more grateful than the guywho had like, has two? And then
the guy who only lost a finger?
Should he be more grateful?
Like, you end up with this kindof this weird scale where you're
navigating. And then should thenon combat veteran who was
sexually molested as a child butdidn't see combat? But now it's
exponentially like, we fall intothis weird trap where you're
(19:54):
like, No,
KP (19:55):
it's like an equation, right? Like, yeah, I had one
plus two plus and it's not likethat.
Matt Stack (19:59):
It's Not like that.
And so every person isdifferent. How we navigate stuff
is different how, how peoplehave navigated divorce, how they
navigated being an only childlike. So what I'm finding is i,
because of the authority thatGod has given me and how I've
been able to been trained andshown how to navigate people,
and I'm dealing with thespiritual perspective of how to
(20:19):
navigate that I feel equipped todo so. Speaking of next
Wednesday, we're launching ourcombat recovery course and I'll
be leading it but I'm walkinginto there knowing I'm staying
in my lane and my lane islisten, there's a spiritual
battle going on there is a Godthere is a devil, I can show you
how to accept Jesus how to takeauthority, like perfect example
(20:41):
I gave to someone that So realquick, I'll share this my buddy
was is a cop he got out of theMarine Corps became a cop, we
became really good friends.
And he was like, head of oursecurity team everything and he
was navigating some heavy stufffrom overseas. But he didn't, he
had come from a differentChristian perspective of like,
God is on the throne. Andeverything happens for a reason
(21:05):
and all that, all that bullshit.
Like, forgive me, like, like allthat stuff where you're like,
okay, like, Yeah, but still kidsare still getting kidnapped.
And, you know, stuff is horriblestuff is still happening. So you
can't say that. God is in chargeof everything. Because he's
notlike there's still freewill.
, So anyways, we're at thisrestaurant. And I was like,
Here, man was like, here's howif you have to understand the
(21:25):
authority in the spiritualrealm, I was like, let's say a
person walked into thisrestaurant right now and said,
Everybody put down your forksright now. Stand up and get
outside. Everybody would look athim. Like, who are you. But if
he was wearing the the uniformof police of a police officer,
and he walked in, he said, Hey,everyone, my name is Sergeant
(21:47):
stack with San Diego policedepartment killer Springfield,
whoever held up the badge andsaid, I need you all to stand up
right now, immediately leavethis restaurant, everybody would
do it. Because they canrecognize the authority that
that person carries. And theybelieve him. And it's the same
thing in the spiritual realm.
When I become a Christian, whenI've been baptized in the Holy
(22:09):
Spirit, which I go through in mybook, which some Christian
denominations are not down with.
But that's how I navigatedeverything was from a place of
authority of understanding nowthat I've walked into a kingdom,
I'm no longer like this littlepeasant ant, looking at God,
like, oh, Lord, please, youknow, may I just like, No, now I
may son, it says that I can comeboldly before the throne of
(22:33):
grace, just as someone had agreat quote, one time, they
said, there's only one person inthe kingdom, who has the balls
to wake up a king in the middleof the night and ask him for a
drink of water.
And it's his son. And that iswho we are in. So that is the
perspective that I'm trying tobring to these men and women of
understanding who you are. Like,you're a son and a daughter of
(22:55):
the king. Like, you don't haveto listen to that. And I told
these guys that are, we'rehaving the same debate one time
at a restaurant. And I told him,I was like, you don't get it. I
said, when I walk out of thisrestaurant, everything is
subject to me on a spirituallevel, because of who I am, and
who I am. And who am Iunderstanding of who I am.
(23:16):
So my kids have had nightterrors, I could tell you
demonic things that havehappened in our house, and how
literally praying those thingsoff have left. I mean, I could
literally sit here for hours,bro. Going over stuff that
that's happened, where I'm like,Dude, this is for real. So to
answer your question would bringit all back? Yes, combat non
combat won't matter. When theyread the book. They're all gonna
(23:38):
go through it. And I don't evencare about the book the books
awesome, but it's justunderstanding who they are.
Right? Yeah, again, it's a deeplevels, man. Don't get me wrong.
I'll go down on crazy tangents.
So just don't mind
KP (23:49):
me. That's okay. It's okay.
Um, I've been doing this forlike, almost two years. So I was
just talking to someone earliertoday about making sure that you
ask very specific questions whenyou're doing podcasting, because
I'm the same way dude, I will, Iwill go down the rabbit hole
like I have ABB really bad. AndI will meet you and I will be
talking about frickin outdoorgear here in a minute if I don't
(24:12):
stay on task. So yeah, I knowthyself.
But don't worry about it. You'regoing into great detail. I
really appreciate it. But goingback to what you said, Man,
whenever somebody tells me like,oh, I served in the military,
but I never got a chance to goto combat I wish I had. It
really bothers me because I'mthinking why like, why do you
wish you had like, that doesn'tdefine you as a person at all.
(24:37):
And I you know, unless you'relike Mike Glover who gets on Joe
Rogan and says, When I was achild I wanted to go to combat
looking forward to it kick asslike, yeah, man.
Like that's, I don't that's notme. Like I did not. I did not
desire to go. What did it was itsomething that I knew I was
gonna have to do? Yes, but it'sit's something that I was like,
(24:58):
you know, a a warmonger No. Andin reality, those folks that
never go like you're not missingout on anything, man, like, it
doesn't define you at all. So Iwas just wondering about that,
because we, we went through sortof a period of like, 20 years,
man, we're like, you know, tosee a combat patch or to see a
combat ribbon was very common.
And now we've kind of come outof that now. And we're at a
(25:21):
different place.
But in relation to your book,killing chaos, you know, we've
kind of talked about andunderlined it here and there.
But would you mind talking tous? About, I guess, how it can
help? Yeah, the military or thefirst responder community?
Specifically? How can we getthem to pick up this book and
(25:43):
open it up and read the firstfew chapters just to get things
rolling?
Matt Stack (25:47):
Yeah, good question, man. And I agree with you on the
combat thing. 100%. When itcomes to Yeah, the books. So the
whole idea behind the book was,and I've never written a book
before, I didn't even havedesire, like I, when I got done
with work and doing all thestuff, I'd rather just when the
kids go to bed, sit down andplay some PlayStation, and you
(26:08):
know, chill out. But I was like,Alright, I guess have to write
this write this book. I don'tknow how to do it, but I'll do
it. But I was the whole ideathat I was trying to mimic, I
guess, if you will, is Irealized that everyone in the
military, no matter what branchwe're in follows the same path
of training.
So we all have some level ofbootcamp or basic training, we
all have some level of any kindof field elements that will be
(26:29):
added, depending upon our job,or MOS, we go on to our
schooling, we go into ouradvanced schooling from there,
it's the duty stations or fleet,what they call and then there
are different billets you can dofrom there, and then there's an
honorable discharge. So there'sthis this flow that every single
military person can relate to,regardless of what they did. So
(26:49):
what I did was mimicked how itshould be with a person's walk
with God, and matched it up tothe adjoining portion of their
military training.
So I basically wrote back outthe map of like, Hey, if you're
new to God, this is where youshould start. This is where your
basic training is, hey, fromthere, this is what you're going
to want to navigate to this iswhat field training looks like
(27:12):
for person getting out. So youcan navigate that. This is what
your duty station your billetsgoing to look like and go from
there. And so we just kind ofwalk a person step by step like,
Hey, I know you're used tobasic, and then all those next
steps after this is what you'regoing to do.
And this is how you navigate.
And we've been really, I've beenreally blessed man, I, I found
(27:32):
out that there was a pastor herein the springs, who started
using my book as a mandatoryread for his veterans going
through a combat recoverycourse. And I was like, that
might be the greatest honor ofmy life like, and that he's
become a friend. And it's beenawesome to see because I've said
(27:53):
this before, and I don't likesaying it.
But I feel like it's good as Ithink I used to get mad at
Veterans when I would first getout. I think I would always be
like, Hey, why can you justfigure this out? Why can you?
Why are you not? Why is it sohard for you to just navigate
life and blah, blah, blah. Andit was the same as before, I was
just always projecting my ownjunk. But now man, like I feel
(28:13):
like I'm crying every week, likeI was calling all the guys go
into my course.
Coming up next week hearingtheir stories, what they went
through. And man, it was like,I'm like, I feel like the longer
I walk with God, the softer I'mbecoming like, it's like, every
day every day, I'm constantlylooking at situations like hey,
(28:34):
is Matt in the marine gonnarespond? Or is Matt, the man a
gardener and so on. But it'slike when it comes to veterans
now, it's like, my heart is justlike, crying left and right,
because I realized, man, theseguys are just alone. They don't
know. And one of the keyelements. So there's there's
three things essentially we'renavigating, you got killing
chaos, but really we're dealingin those course of what,
something called a soul wound.
(28:55):
A soul wound is can be like atype of trauma. And they have
different ones for regular notregular trauma, but outside of a
military world trauma, and thenthere's first responder, but
then also you've got the chaoselement. And then really what's
missing for these guys iscommunity, putting them back
into a place with people thatthey respect. Like because if
(29:18):
you tell if you tell most guyslike hey man, you want to come
to like a men's group or youwant to come to church you want
to come and sing? Like everyonehas a picture of like, you know,
like Ned Flanders in their mindlike now bro I'm good. Like,
like, give me the guy like onthe mats every week who can
submit everyone in the entireroom, but has an awesome
(29:38):
marriage.
And you know, as a warrior, andas a man that you respect and as
a as a man after God's own heartlike that's the men that when
guys get out they look at andthey go, alright, that guy I'd
follow that guy I'd be incommunity with. And I think the
church has changed in the last20 years like the church you and
I went to when we were younger.
No. The one of the, the two menwho wrecked me as I was
(30:03):
navigating this world. One ofthem was a 20 year Navy SEAL.
The other one was one of themost successful practices in San
Diego.
And they both were amazing men,and I remember him, they both
were just challenging me, like,Dude, you're not here, how you
speak about yourself andeverything. And they, they got
(30:26):
me into another book thatwrecked me. And so it's just
being around good men. Andthat's I think what's missing,
they need a brotherhood, asisterhood, whatever you want to
call it. They need communitywhen they get out a real one.
KP (30:38):
Yeah, I agree with you. 100% when it comes to that community,
and I always tell people that atleast this is what I think that
when the World War Two veteranscame back from their long siege
overseas, it was much easier toconnect with that community.
Because there was so many peopleinvolved in that. Your neighbors
were there, your your boss wasthere, everyone was there. So
(31:02):
everyone had, I came back fromIraq.
And right off the bat, Iliterally had people telling me
what was happening over therewhile they were watching it on
CNN or Fox News. And it really,it really irritated me and
pissed me off. Because I'mthinking to myself, though, I
just spent a year in my lifeover there, I was on boots on
the ground dealing with allkinds of shit. And here I have a
(31:24):
civilian sitting in front of metelling me how, or what's going
on over there in the war rightnow.
So that community that you'retalking about, and having to
having folks that also identifywith you has the the the numbers
have have lessened over theyears, I mean, it's like less
(31:44):
than what 6% ever serve in themilitary. And then it's an even
smaller percentage that Iactually go to war, or have been
to war before I experienced it.
So, you know, it's it's verydifficult to find folks that
are, I guess, able to speak mylanguage are able to understand
where I'm coming from sometimes.
(32:05):
And I agree with you 100% onthat and talking about
leadership, you know, I in insome aspect to what we're
talking about here. I reallythink that folks need to take
accountability of themselves,especially once they get out of
the military.
I know for me, I struggled foryears trying to figure out, you
know, why did I like dancing inthe chaos so much and, you know,
(32:26):
in my, my relationship, butprior to that, I struggled so
much to where I was seeingdifferent counselors on my own.
I avoided the VA, I stayed awayfrom the VA because the VA has
such a bad name to it. I did notwant to be associated with being
a crazy veteran. But I was but Iwas a crazy veteran.
(32:49):
And it kind of hit home when thedivorce was final. And my ex
told me she said, she said I'llnever get into another
relationship with a militaryperson again. And I thought I
was a little offended by that. Iwas like, we know what Screw
you, you know, but and it mademe think like, you know, should
(33:11):
I go to the VA, and I finallydid go to the VA. And I got the
help that I needed to get, Ifinally was able to connect with
a good counselor that I couldtalk to, and get the help that I
needed. But how do you feelabout the VA and with this with
the whole killing chaos and thewhole aspect of of understanding
(33:33):
that we recreate that chaosafter service?
Matt Stack (33:38):
Yeah man , that's a good question. On one hand. Like
I remember when the Shinsekiscandal happened years back, and
it was like I remember trying toget appointments at the San
Diego VA took forever. And thenafter that scandal and down it
was like, man, they were callingme to make appointments. And it
was like I want and I was likegood. Some stuff is getting
fixed here. But on the otherhand, it's a nightmare.
(34:00):
And I think I mean, thegovernment runs anything. It's a
nightmare. But I think I like Ireached out to the mental health
team at the VA. Like becausewhatever reason you know, they
don't you don't get muchresponse in just navigating
this, even some other greatentities because because I'm
(34:20):
bringing this from a spiritualperspective. That to me is the
key. That's the missing link.
That is the thing that helpsguys navigate this.
Like there's great things outthere but until you can navigate
this from a spiritualperspective, it's like bringing
a knife to a gunfight. You,there are humongous doors that
have been opened. And I'mpromising you there's there's
(34:42):
only one way to close them. AndI've seen it again and again.
And so for me the VA on someaspects, I think is improved but
on others they suck like I'mlike so I mean I feel torn to be
honest with you. I still I stilluse the VA still talk with them
like I still go to myappointments. So I think it's a
love hate. There was a videothat I just saw, I don't even
(35:04):
know where it came from it wasfrom a movie of some young kid
walking up to a desk.
And he said he wants to killhimself. And the girls like,
okay, fill out this form. Shehands him a form. And I sent it
to one of my buddies who runs apodcast, and he was like, bro,
that is the VA. And I was like,I know, like, I had a real quick
(35:28):
story. I had a, my mother in lawmet this guy recently, a few
weeks back at like thechiropractor. And he, she starts
telling him, finds out that he'sa vet wants to write a book,
she's Oh, my gosh, my son in lawwrote a book, blah, blah, blah.
And so they give me my somehow Iget in touch this guy. She gives
him my number he calls me. I waslike, Cool, no problem, man.
(35:50):
Like, absolutely, I'll help you.
And then I met up for him forlunch. Like I went to lunch with
them.
And I had no idea he was likemassively struggling with
suicide, really going like in adark, dark path. And man, I'm
like, Man, I thought this guywas like, in a good place this
and this, I had no idea. He'sstill struggling. And then now
once he mentioned suicide, like,I'm now on the legal hook for
(36:14):
making sure he's connected tothe right person, like,
immediately. So now I'mscrambling trying to get him the
right place. And I remembergoing down a rabbit hole,
because he didn't want to godown the road of the VA. He was
like, no, like, do not want togo there. And I remember
connecting him with someoneimmediately. That took like
three levels deep to get to thisperson.
And it was really annoying. Andthen when they finally get on
(36:37):
the phone with him, I'm threewayed on the phone with him.
Like the first question. Theywere like, they asked him what
his pronouns were. And he wasdone. He was like, that was it.
Like, didn't want to talk anymore like, and I was like, dude,
like, this is, I was justfloored.
And then I felt like an asslike, because now I'm trying to
(36:59):
get him the right help. And soobviously, like, things are
better now. And I was able toconnect him with some other
people and, but it was justlike, on one hand, I think
you're right. I don't think guyswant to. I don't think guys want
to go down that because everyonethinks they're, it's like, they
picture like a stamp that'sgonna go on their file, and that
(37:20):
everyone will know, right there.
Every time they call this guystruggles with suicide. But the
problem is tons of guys arestruggling with suicide, and
it's not connected to theiridentity. That's the problem is
guys are connecting the way thatthey are and the way that they
operate to their personality.
It's not your personality, yourpersonality, wouldn't want to
(37:41):
destroy your marriage, yourpersonality, wouldn't want to
just wreck everything aroundyou. I was getting my hair cut
from a dude. Not long ago, and Istarted talking to my start
telling he found out he's amarine and like Marine infantry
vet, start telling about thechaos thing, and he stops. And
he goes, bro, every day, I feellike grabbing this chair and
(38:03):
smashing the place to pieces.
And I was like, It's not you,man. That is not you.
Like, that is just how you'vebeen growing. You can't spend
you can't put guys in that kindof environment for years, and
then not see it bleed out into apeaceful situation. Because the
truth is, my wife doesn't needlike my wife, the type of love
(38:27):
that my wife needs is differentthan the type of love I need.
And the type of love my familyneeds is different than the type
of love I need. Like, I can't becoming downstairs and just
shaking up the nest every day.
And thinking that they're goingto be like, sweet, no problem.
Like we'll do this. Like, thathas effects. But then the
problem is, is when guys do it,they feel like a failure. They
(38:50):
think there's something wrongwith them.
They think it's me, I'm broken,Hey man. We're all broken. But
where this whole cast elementis, is like, listen, there is a
reason that you're operatingthis way. And it could be if a
person was abused, now they thensubsequently have to feel like
(39:12):
they are in control at alltimes. So they will become an
over controlling person with anA type personality. They might
have been hurt by someone orabandoned by a mother.
they do, they will get wrecked.
Bro I was my wife and I domarriage counseling every other
(39:33):
week. And we feel like we have agreat marriage 11 years for
kids. But I'm like, dude, evenlike two weeks ago we get done
with a thing we're both cryingbecause I'm like still dealing
with like some of my junk andlike helping a counselor deal
with it.
And even though I feel like wegot a great thing like. So I
think there's a deeper world andit wrecks me to see guys like
(39:56):
have things go wrong in theirlife and then they walk away
thinking they....Don't get mewrong, everyone's responsible. I
can't just say, hey, it's notyour fault. It's all this fault.
Like everyone has to takeresponsibility for their junk.
But there's a reason it gets tothat point is my guess what I'm
trying to say?
KP (40:11):
Yeah, no doubt man I, I grew up with a father who served in
the military for 20 years,drafted in 71. And even to this
day, recently, we got into aconversation on whether or not
whether or not counselorcounseling is bullshit. He's the
kind of, he's the kind ofveteran that literally went to a
(40:32):
counselor once and walked out,like and never went back. And
it's, it's tough man, becausethat's a whole different era in
itself of time when people justthought counselors are bullshit.
And psychologists are bullshit.
And they just keep everything toyourself, and let it fester up.
And as far as shaking the nestup that you were talking about,
it's important for veterans outthere to look in the mirror and
(40:55):
recognize and realize thatsometimes you may be the problem
that's creating the fire.
And that was certainly somebodythat I was I was constantly
shaking the nest, and I wasconstantly trying to create that
chaos that I was so comfortablewith being in at the time. So
(41:16):
learning how to control that wasreally important for me, and I
think that your book in itself,man really, really hits home.
For me, and I'm sure for manyveterans that are going to be
listening and military spousesthat are going to be listening
to this podcast, specifically.
And just wanted to ask you, youknow, everyone's out there,
talking about 22 A day. I seepeople out there doing push ups
(41:38):
and whatever else like, to me,it's, I don't know, I think it's
a waste of time.
But it's important to talk aboutit, it's important to understand
it, but all the other stuff thatcomes with it, the push ups and
all that crap, like I don't playthat. I don't, I think it's
bullshit. But the 22 a day is avery important thing, though, in
itself to understand that we'rea very small percentage, but we
(41:59):
have very high suicide rates. Doyou feel that this specific
thing that we're talking abouthere? Shaking the nest, creating
chaos, being in the chaos, beingcomfortable in the chaos? Do you
feel like that attributes a lotto that high suicide rate that
we have
Matt Stack (42:15):
100%. And I'm not, I'm not, I guess you could say
educated enough for certifiedenough if you want to say to
maybe put a conclusion on it.
But man Gosh, from, from whatI've seen it, I think it's a
that's a huge part of it. Ithink it's like a like, I think
of it like a concoction. You getsomeone who's battled with
(42:36):
abandonment, trauma, all theseelements, and then you mix in
military service, then you putthem into civilian environments
where they can't navigateemotional, the same emotional
ways that other people do.
And you add in all these things.
And then it manifests itself indifferent ways. So now you have
(43:00):
a person who's dealt withabandonment, they dealt with the
trauma, they dealt with allthese things, now they get out,
and they don't want to makeconnections, because they're
thinking these civilans aregonna be fake, they're not going
to understand me, I don't wantto connect to this person,
because they're not going tounderstand me, well, now they're
secluded, now they're isolated.
Now they feel alone. And I thinkit's just this pattern.
Like, it's like a formula thatjust keeps playing out. So that
(43:22):
what you would really want tosee happen is, it's like, you
gotta go back to the tree, yougot to go back to when guys are
getting out, there has to besomething in place for, you
know, what I got, you know, mytransition was? Was the dude who
came in and showed us how tocollect unemployment in two
different states. That was my,that was my get out of the
Marine Corps class. But hey,here's how you can actually
(43:45):
navigate the system and collectunemployment to two places that
was it. And the next thing onwaiting tables, I got involved
in some network marketingscheme. Dude, the head dude goes
to prison.
I'm like, maybe this is a scam.
Maybe this is bad. Like so toanswer your Yeah, I think I
think it's massively attributingI have a hard time seeing guys
go through the elements of like,really accepting Jesus really
(44:10):
navigating their trauma, reallybeing able to and there's a myth
when I say navigating thetrauma, there's a, I don't want
to go too deep into it.
But there is a way to do thatlike to actually do it. And I've
done it and man neverexperienced anything like it in
my life. But now those thingsdon't have a hold over me. I now
have a hold of them. I am now incontrol those things don't hold
(44:33):
me. And so yeah, I think it'sattributing huge
KP (44:38):
Yeah, definitely. I don't have the stats on this. But I
would also venture to say thatthe majority of the folks that
join the military, left themilitary, served in the
military, do not come from thebest home situations, including
myself. You know, whether it'ssingle parent homes, split home,
domestically violent homes,you're you're joining the
(44:59):
military to just Get away fromyour situation, whatever the
case is, and you spend yourentire childhood teenage years
learning to be resilient andjust toughing it out without any
understanding of what you'redoing, then you join the
military, you add more chaos tothat. And then from there, you
get out.
And then we talk about that 22 aday, which is a very high
(45:21):
statistic for our smallcommunity. I would say that
dancing in the chaos, if it'ssomething that you've been doing
for over 20, some years, toinclude your childhood.
And you just stack more on topof that. And you're wondering
why you're just jumping fromrelationship to relationship
from job to job, why no oneunderstands you. I really think
(45:43):
that the whole concept of thisbook really hits a mark on why
we have such a high suiciderate. And it has to do with how,
understanding how to switch thatchaos off, and how to be at
peace with yourself. And when Ihonestly was contacted by you,
I'm gonna be honest with you, Ithought, oh, here we go. Another
(46:04):
author another book, blah, blah,blah.
Okay, let me see what this isabout. When I went on to Amazon
and I saw, you know, what thiswas about, and, you know, the,
the understanding of the dailylife chaos effects, you know, in
that we go through in training,and then in combat, and then
coming out here to civilianworld. I thought, Wow, this,
(46:26):
this looks interesting. Like, Iwould like to talk to this
author a little bit deeper.
And I really appreciate yougiving me the opportunity and
giving this audience anopportunity as well, to learn
more about you, Matt, because,you know, the the book that you
have is is definitely somethingthat I think a lot of veterans
out there who are havingdifficulties in their
relationships outside of theservice, or even while you're in
(46:48):
service, or even our firstresponders out there.
Yeah, this is definitely a greatread. And just to give you an
opportunity, man, if folks outthere want to follow up with
you, on you know, contact youfor anything that you mentioned
today, what social mediaplatforms are you on? And where
can they find your book?
Matt Stack (47:06):
I'm on Instagram, really, I'm just on Instagram, I
don't have a Facebook. But man,if you're out there and you're
struggling like Guys, guys, Ihate calling people Man, I hate
it more than anything, but I'lltext them, I'll message
someone. So if you, someone'sout there struggling with
suicide, you're going like, bro,you can message me man go on,
Matt underscore stack is myInstagram. It's the only one I
(47:28):
use not beside the business one.
But Matt underscore stack, likethat. I'm not trying to create
like a new thing here.
Like there's, there's a ton ofgreat organizations out there.
Like ultimately, what I want todo is have a way when guys read
it to where they can get pluggedinto an awesome community, like
work with churches in the areaknowing which are which I
(47:50):
consider a great church, whichones avoid, and then going to
the ones where it guys can get agreat community again, and get
that back because it's a I thinkit starts it starts with a
relationship with Jesus.
But like, if to end this,there's a lot of behaviors and
patterns that have to be workedout. I was massively addicted to
(48:10):
porn, getting into my marriage.
Well, that didn't go over sowell with my wife at first. It
shattered her and now I had tonavigate this other world with
another person by my side. Sothere's tons of things that guys
struggle with alone. But Ipromise it's not struggle that
you're dealing with alonebecause a lot of guys do it. And
that's how we we battle it outtogether. So Matt underscore
(48:33):
stack that can hit me up. Anddude, KP you got a new guy, new
friend out in Colorado Springs,bro. Yeah.
KP (48:40):
I really appreciate it, man.
And listen to what he just said,Don't be embarrassed about your
situation, whether it'ssomething mental that you're
going through. Or maybe it'slike, like he just mentioned
right now with the issue thatyou had with porn, like, Listen,
if you're, if you're goingthrough it, you're not going
through it alone.
There's folks out there likemyself, there's folks out there
like Matt, folks within thecommunity that are more than
willing to talk to you, but thenalso reference you into the
(49:04):
right direction to get you theexpert help that you need. And
that just to round things off,and I just want to mention this
too.
For all knuckleheads out there,like myself who hate to read
books. This is only sixty sixpages. This is only 66 pages
long, right?
Matt Stack (49:19):
Oh, it's only 66.
Dude my wife gives me so muchcrap all the time. Like you need
to go, Vets don't like to readbooks, you need to go and do the
audio book. I'm like, I know.
KP (49:28):
I mean, 66 pages. Guys, if you can't get through that.
Yeah, if you can't get throughthat, then you got some real
real world issues here. 66 pagesis not all that much. It's
definitely worth taking a lookat it probably gets straight,
concise to the point. So whichis the kind of reading that I
like to do, but just to roundthings off, Matt. And to finish
(49:48):
off the podcast. Do you have anyadvice out there for folks
within our military community?
Matt Stack (49:54):
That's a good question. Probably just a re
summarization of kind ofeverything went through it. Say,
the message that I wouldprobably leave for a veteran is
like how you feel is not tied toyour personality and how you
feel is not tied to you alone.
Like, I think, guys, there's acombination of guys want to
think about well, listen, youdon't know what I've been
(50:15):
through. And that's true.
We don't, or you don't knowwe've what I've experienced.
That's true. We don't. But theway you feel, I guarantee
matches up. If you were to pull100 vets in a room, and we
talked about what we talkedabout on this show today.
I would bet 90% of them wouldall would all be like, yeah,
(50:38):
yeah. Like and so I would say,you've got to, like I get choked
up , I would say you got you gotto fight it out a little longer.
Like, go another day. Like,because I promise like, one
thing I've learned about God andmy walk with God is that He is
(51:00):
the greatest I guess Turner ofthings horrible into things that
are beautiful.
Like I've seen guys that I knowwho've done the worst things,
and horrible things, and getslike God takes it and switches
it around. And so much of us islike we think we don't want
that. Like we want it we want tolike shroud ourselves in the
darkness. Telling you , man cometo the light. Because the life
(51:24):
that you want, the marriage youwant, the family you want, the
business you want, all thosethings like, you can have those
things like, let's deal withthis stuff. Let's go another
day. Let's fight it out. Let'sget the right community. And
it's right there on the otherside, man.
KP (51:39):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Definitely that it's a greatconversation, Matt, I really
appreciate you letting us in towhat killing chaos is all about
and letting us learn a littlebit more about you as well. I
really appreciate you giving usthat chance. So thank you so
much for the time.
And I want to thank the audienceas well. Thank you for listening
(51:59):
to the morning formationpodcast, another great episode
tied up here with Matt stack,make sure you follow Him. If you
(52:58):
want to check it out down on theshow notes. I will put his
Instagram down there as well aswhere you can find his book on
Amazon and any other pertinentways that you can contact Matt.
(53:20):
But for now, as always, to myaudience, I want you to stay
tuned, stay focused, and staymotivated. Warriors fall out.
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