The New Exec Playbook: Your Most Important First Moves in Your First Executive Role (with Yue Zhao)

Starting a new job is tough—but stepping into an executive role is a whole different challenge. With high stakes, unrealistic expectations, and all eyes on you, how do you navigate this transition successfully?

In this episode, Hannah talks with Yue Zhao, executive coach and founder of The Uncommon Executive, about the realities of executive life, adapting to new dynamics, and essential steps beyond the typical 90-day plan.

Resources from this episode:

• Subscribe to The Product Manager newsletter
• Connect with Yue on LinkedIn
• Check out The Uncommon Executive

Episode Transcript

Hannah Clark (00:01):
Starting any new job is a lot—there
are processes to learn,personalities to navigate,
and complicated problemsto wrap your head around.
But starting a new jobin an executive role is a
completely different ballgame.
You have all of those usualnew job learning curves, but
you're adapting to them in anenvironment where the stakes
are higher, the expectationsare probably unrealistic, and

(00:24):
there are a lot of eyes on you.
My guest today is Yue Zhao, anexecutive coach and the founder
of The Uncommon Executive.
Having served many years inexecutive roles at companies
of many different sizes—fromFAANG to scale-ups—Yue now
works with new and establishedexecutives to navigate a
level of achievement thatmany of us aspire to,
but where few set foot.

(00:44):
We discussed some of themyths around executive life,
how to adapt to a totally newdynamic, and toward the end
of the conversation, she evenoutlined some crucial steps
to take that you won't findon your 90-day success plan.
Let's jump in.
Welcome back to TheProduct Manager Podcast.
I'm here today with Yue Zhao.
Yue, thank you so much forcoming and joining us today.

Yue Zhao (01:03):
Glad to be here.

Hannah Clark (01:04):
Can you tell us a little bit about your
background and how you gotto where you are today?

Yue Zhao (01:07):
Sure.
So I started my careerin consulting at
McKinsey out of college.
And eventually landed intechnology through co founding
a wine e commerce startup,and then being the first PM at
Thumbtack, which was a localservices marketplace went
from there after five yearsto Instagram, where I led the

(01:29):
featuring and profile teams.
Did a couple of shifts withinMeta more broadly, and then
eventually took on a role as theCPO and then CTO of a digital
health startup, Fuzzy, that wasfocused on telehealth for pets.
And from there, I reallyactually took all of that
experience and wanted to dosomething a bit different.

(01:50):
And transitioned into afull time coaching and
teaching and writing.
So not something that I sort ofwould have anticipated in the
start of my career, but veryhappy with where I've landed.

Hannah Clark (02:03):
Yeah, it sounds like an awesome
career trajectory.
And I'm so excited that you hadthat experience to share with us
today, because we're going to befocusing on the transition into
a first executive product role.
Which is, it's a role thatvery few of us are privileged
to enter, but it's a verydifferent transition from any
other that we might've made.
So you've mentioned beforethat one of the biggest shifts
is moving from a team firstperspective to a company first

(02:26):
kind of thinking when youmove into an executive role.
Can you tell me alittle bit about that?
Walk me through thatmindset shift and what it
looks like in practice.

Yue Zhao (02:32):
So, many of us, as we come up through the ladders
in the organization, we oftenthink of our team as the
function that we're in, right?
So for product folks,it's the other PMs.
And then generallyspeaking, for PMs, it's PM
engineering design, maybedata, maybe research, right?
But you're within thattechnology bubble, and

(02:54):
you think of that asyour first team, right?
And the main difference whenyou get into the executive
levels is your first teambecomes the other C-suite
leader, so the other VPswithin the organization.
And so it is first a mindsetshift because I think for
most people, when you havea problem, when you have
a question, when you havesomething you want to get done,

(03:16):
you go to the engineers, yougo on your team, within your
group, or you go to other PMs,or you go to your manager,
but it's within your generalfunction and area, right?
Versus in an executiverole, the first people you
actually need to go to arelike the VP of sales or the
chief marketing officer orthe chief legal officer.

(03:37):
And that can be verycounterintuitive for
someone stepping intothat role the first time.
Because it's a very naturaltendency to be like, okay,
let me focus on making sureproduct is doing great, right?
Let me make sure I'm, thatwe're collaborating well with
engineering and design, andthose are still things that
are important, but the uniquerole that only you can do

(03:57):
becomes how do you actuallyget every function to work
together on cross functionalcompany wide projects.
And making that like your firstpriority rather than your team
can be a very counterintuitiveshift for a lot of folks.

Hannah Clark (04:14):
Yeah, I can imagine.
So let's talk a little bit aboutthat executive team dynamic.
I'm sure it's a little bitdifferent from like you
said, some of the things thatmore in your specific area.
How should new productexecutives approach building
relationships with peers inlike sales, legal, all these
other functions that they mightnot have had many exposure
opportunities to before?

Yue Zhao (04:31):
It's a great question.
And I would actually saythat it starts before you
get to the executive level.
And what you'll find isthat often people who have
exposure to these differentfunctions, who've either
done like a tour of duty orcome from varied experiences.
Actually have an advantageand a higher likelihood of

(04:52):
getting into the executiveroles because it is actually
so important to understandhow do I work with sales?
How do I work with legal?
When do I bring inpolicy and the CFO?
And how do I talkabout, financials and
quarterly earnings?
And so, I think it actuallystarts long before stepping into
the role to really understandwhat are the different pieces
of the business and whatare the different functions

(05:14):
and how do they fit togetherand how are they motivated
and how do they work?
But, stepping into that roleas an executive, the first
thing to understand is reallythe dynamics of the team
and why you were brought in.
I say this a lot because I thinkSometimes people bring a lot of
history and experience with theminto a new role, and they have

(05:36):
this idea of this is how thingsshould work, or this is how I
imagine things work, and this isa role of product within that.
Now, I think the mostimportant thing when you
walk in is being like, okay,how do I quickly prove or
disapprove my hypothesisabout how things really work
in this new environment?
And so whether it's spendingtime with the board, the

(05:57):
CEO, the founders, or withthe rest of the executive
team, I find that the mostimportant questions are like,
what are your priorities?
What do you expect theproduct person to be doing?
And what are the challengesthat you wish we had
solved a year ago?
That you are hoping eithersomeone in this position
solves or in general as acompany we solve together.

(06:18):
So it's really about figuringout like, what is your job?
I mean, it sounds a little sillyto say that, but really what
are you trying to get done?
And why were you brought in?
And in some scenarios, Thatcould be very clear, like
through the interview processand the company and everyone's
aligned on these are thetwo burning fires I need
you to help us put it out.

(06:39):
And in other scenarios,and actually in my case at
Fuzzy, it was ambiguous.
And if you ask different people,they had different answers from
obviously their vantage point.
And so part of the job wasactually, okay, what is the
thing that we as a group thinkneeds to get done and why, and
how do I make sure we actuallybring alignment to that?
So, really just like figuringout what are the top priorities

(07:01):
to go solve with the rest of thecompany rather than what are the
top priorities within product.

Hannah Clark (07:08):
Huge mindset shift.
So when we're talking aboutcollaborating with other
executives and trying to figureout what your job is, a big part
of that would be feedback andbeing able to establish really
solid lines of communication.
So, what strategies have youfound effective for creating,
first of all, psychologicalsafety, in which, this is a high
stakes role and there's a lot ofunknowns, especially when you're

(07:28):
first in this executive space.
So how do you createpsychological safety with other
executives and maintain a reallygenuine two way communication
trajectory with your team?

Yue Zhao (07:37):
I think both with your peers as well as with
your team, being aware ofthe power differential.
People don't like to talkabout power, but I like
to talk about power, butthere's power differential
within various functionsand within the organization.
And the bigger that powerdifferential, the less likely
you're going to get the truth.
That's just the waypeople work, right?

(07:58):
When they're talking tosomeone who they perceive
as having a lot more powerthan them, they're going to
tell you mostly good things.
They're going to hide a bit, notlike stuff away, but hide a bit
of like the truth about what'sreally happening on the ground.
Because either out of fearor out of, Oh, no, this is
not something that I wanther to deal with because,
I think that, she has manyother higher things happening.

(08:19):
And so that's onething to keep in mind.
And so as an executive, whenI sort of connect with my
peers, I always try to figureout like, how can I build a
trust based relationship wherewe have the same incentives?
Because the biggest blocker toreally honest relationships,
in my opinion, is when youhave different motivations

(08:41):
and when you perceive thatyou have different goals that
you're trying to achieve.
So maybe sales is trying tohit their quarterly goals and
product is trying to buildlike some infrastructure thing
for the long term, right?
And so it's a very simple,classic example, but there's
a perceived mismatch in life.
What are you trying toget done versus what am
I trying to get done?
And I find that one of thefirst things to draw out is

(09:04):
like, What are our shared goals?
What are our shared incentives?
What do we want toachieve together?
And align on that first, andthen going back to what we were
just talking about, this likecompany first mentality, that's
usually where the alignment is.
It's well, you both want thiscompany to be successful.
You both want thiscompany to grow.
Like you may be thinkingdifferent timeframes,

(09:24):
but you know, there'sa shared vision there.
And so that's reallythe starting point.
And then I think it's importantwith teams to really sort of
be very explicit and repeatedlybe very explicit about the fact
that you want honest feedback.
And really when that personcomes and is hesitant and is not

(09:45):
sure if they should have broughtthis thing up or it's a career
limiting move, right, that youreally actually encourage them.
In how they feel comfortable,whether it's publicly,
whether it's privately,that Hey, I'm really glad
you brought this up, right?
I know it was scary.
I know you were notsure, but I'm really
glad you brought it up.
And then if they're comfortablewith it, like making an example

(10:05):
of this person brought thisup and it was really great.
And if Other folks haveideas or suggestions or
challenges like this.
I'd love to hear more of it.
And just actually saying thatprobably 10 times more than you
think you should until it reallybecomes a part of, Oh, okay this
is how Yue likes to operate.
She just wants to know.
And, to your point,creating that safety of

(10:27):
I'm glad you told me.
I'm glad that we're talkingabout it because this is a very
important thing to bring up.

Hannah Clark (10:32):
Okay, I love that point.
And I think that'sapplicable too.
Roles of any kind as sucha critical skill to build
is that getting comfortablewith constructive criticism.
It's hard bridge to cross,but it's such a game changer.

Yue Zhao (10:45):
And I think on that note, like sometimes
I think people are afraidto give constructive
feedback because they viewit as a personal thing.
You need to do somethinglike viewing needs to do
better at this, right?
That becomes a verypersonal thing.
I think that type of framingcan be tricky and like difficult
to get across correctly.

(11:05):
Versus the company has thisissue, our teams have this
issue, even I have this issue,make it your thing, like I have
this challenge where, it takesme a long time to do X, right?
Those are much "safer" optionsfor framing because you're not
attacking the other person.
Right, necessarily, orputting them on a defensive,
you're just saying, I havethis problem, or I see this

(11:28):
problem, or, in general, Isee teams have this problem,
but it's not about them, it'snot, especially if it's a new
executive coming in it's notlike they did something wrong.
It's just, here's a problemthat I see that I think it
would be impactful to go solve.

Hannah Clark (11:41):
Yeah, you did an episode, I think it
was the last year, aboutemotional intelligence
through product leadership.
A big takeaway from thatwas depersonalizing feedback
and really focusing onwhat was the action, the
outcome, and removing itfrom, because everybody is,
there's a good faith thereand assuming positive intent
that really goes a long way.
And when we're in aligningwith that mindset of we're
just doing what's best for theoutcomes that we want and not

(12:02):
because, it's because you think.
You have a personal failingor anything like that.
Let's switch gears a littlebit and talk a little bit about
the perception of executivelife, because I think this is
a big blocker for some folkswho are, interested in that
kind of career progression, butmaybe are a little bit uncertain
about how that will affecttheir day to day or what they
might have to deprioritize inorder to succeed at that level.
So what are some common mythsaround the role that might be

(12:23):
holding some really talented,born leaders back from
pursuing executive positions?

Yue Zhao (12:27):
Well, I think the first one is that executives
work 24 seven and you couldnot have a personal life
outside of your work life.
That's a very common one thatoften when I talk to folks
about why do you not want toconsider continuing to move up?
That's a big one,men and women, right?
Where they're like, no,I don't want to spend my
entire waking hours working.

(12:48):
But then related tothat, oh, it's just
super stressful, right?
There's a lot ofsuper challenging
decisions all the time.
And, I don't wantthat level of stress.
And I do think that thereare definitely roles out
there at the executive levelor at any level, really,
where it's all consuming andit's high levels of stress.
And for anyone who's workedat large companies, for

(13:11):
example, when I was at Meta.
There were, specific companypriorities and teams that
match that priorities where wewould actually meet with Zuck
on a monthly and sometimesduring COVID 19 we met weekly.
Super stressful.
That is, you work aroundthe clock because you just
had a meeting, now you haveanother meeting with, Zuck.
And so, But there'sother teams within Meta

(13:32):
where it's very stable.
If you had a similarstrategy for the last
two years, everyone'sbeen there for 10 years.
Everyone knows what's going tohappen tomorrow and actually,
next week and the next quarter.
And so it is much more stable.
Same with company stages.
There are stages ofthe company, right?
Where if you're really tryingto find product market fit,

(13:53):
if you're really trying tolike, Get that next round
of funding, it's going tobe a lot more stressful.
There's going to be a lotmore decisions that need to
get made versus if you'remore in a time of execution,
if you're more in a time ofHey, this is the strategy,
let's just go make it happen.
You're going to have a higheramount of control over your
schedule and your calendar.

(14:13):
And so it's the samein executive roles.
Right.
And I think it also at mostlevels, it's like there's
going to be a spectrum.
And to the extent that havinga life outside of work is
an important priority, thereare sort of CPO roles and CTO
roles and even CEO roles whereit is more of a nine to five

(14:36):
and you don't work weekends.
That said, I think thereis always an element
of emergencies, right?
Where you're that first point ofcontact if something goes wrong.
But again, you can lookat industry dynamics.
You can say there's certainindustries where there's a
lot of emergencies and sortof last minute things that
happen outside your control.
And there are certain industriesthat are just more calm.
And, most things arewithin your control.

(14:58):
So again, Really looking atthe dynamics of the environment
because there are rules outthere where you can have that
level of seniority and authorityand type of sort of a decision
making without everythingfeeling like the environment
is changing all the time.
I keep having to getpinged in the middle of

(15:19):
the night and all of that.

Hannah Clark (15:20):
Okay.
Well, it's good to know that'snot a universal stereotype
isn't universally true.
But I'm really glad that youbrought up kind of the nuances
in company size and maturity andhow that can impact the role.
Because as we know, whetherit's a VP or a head of product
or CPO, or really a lot ofhigher level product roles
can look really differentdepending on the company
size and maturity, and evenjust the leadership dynamics

(15:42):
that exist within that teamalready before you've come on.
So when you're working withyour own clients, We're
coming into an executive role.
How do you help them adapttheir approach based on some
of these contextual factors?

Yue Zhao (15:53):
This is why I enjoy coaching so much.
They're all individual,unique snowflakes and
individual, unique situationsbecause you have the person
and their history, theirexperience, their strengths,
what their beliefs are aboutthe world and their values.
And then you have theenvironment, which is your
point, like the size of thecompany, the stage, the makeup

(16:14):
of the rest of the team, andyou put those two together and
there's usually not another pairthat's exactly the same, right?
There may be similaritiesthat you can start
extrapolating, but there's avery unique fit of person with
environment that they're in.
And so when it comes tocoaching, I focus as much about

(16:34):
understanding and anticipatingand figuring out how you're
perceiving the environment asmuch as what you have to change.
And I think sometimes peopleare surprised by that, a lot
of folks come in and say okay,here's what I need to learn.
I need to better communicate.
I need to do these things.
I need to likegain these skills.
I'm like, great.
Maybe, if you want to learnthem, you should learn them.

(16:58):
But let's also lookat your environment.
Let's look at how you're set up.
Let's look at what stagesyour company is in.
Let's look at who's aroundyou, who's on your team.
What are their strengths?
And let's see how you'reactually interacting with
your environment and whatyou're putting out there and
what you're getting back.
And sometimes it's actuallyabout putting a different
thing out there that youalready know how to do.

(17:20):
And then getting differentresponses back to really change
your thinking about what'spossible and what the potential
narrative or outcome might beof what it is that you're doing.

Hannah Clark (17:31):
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
I love that approach.
I'm very curious about thedynamic of working with
the board and investors.
I don't know ifyou've seen severance.
I'm sure that there's somepeople who are listening
who have seen severance, butthere's the presence of the
board is sort of this thingthat's looming that no one
beyond the executive levelreally has much contact with.
It sounds very amorphousand sort of scary until
you're really in a rolewhere you're making direct

(17:52):
contact with and, I knowthat they're human beings.
It's not like peoplewho are investors.

Yue Zhao (17:55):
The alien planet.
We've made contact with them.

Hannah Clark (18:02):
I would love if we could talk a little
bit about what that's reallycoming into a situation where
you're dealing one on one withboard members or investors.
What are some of the keythings that first time
executives should reallyknow about managing these
relationships effectively?

Yue Zhao (18:14):
There's a running joke that you always
have a manager, right?
Some people think like whenyou get to the executive level,
you can do whatever you want.
And then they realizethere's the board.
And you can't doexactly what you want.
And then you becomea public company.
And then there's even moreexpectation around how the
company performs and all that.
So there's always a manager.
There's always someoneelse out there.

(18:36):
And I think what's uniqueabout the board dynamic
is that it's not a singlemanager, make things more fun.
It's a board ofdirectors, right?
So they come fromdifferent backgrounds.
They bring different experiencesand that's their value,
but they'll have differentperspectives and they care about
different things, but togetherthey really have one, I'll

(18:59):
call it one stick that they canuse, which is removing the CEO.
If you think about it at the endof the day, like what a board
can do, they can approve and ordeny acquisitions, whether it's
someone purchasing you or youpurchasing a certain company.
Or they can fire the CEO.
That's it.
Those are their two leverages.
I mean, it soundsa little silly.

(19:19):
Whoever's on boards heregive me a moment here, but
that's really at the end ofthe day what boards can do.
And so their real leveragemost of the time, if you're
not talking about acquisitions,Is the CEO and the CEO
wanting to stay in their job.

Hannah Clark (19:32):
It's an ultimatum, basically.

Yue Zhao (19:35):
And so if you think about it from that
perspective, the board is notreally that scary in a way.
And the CEO controlseveryone else's jobs.
So to the extent you want tostay in your job, like that's
how it flows down, right?
But as like the CPO or CTOor someone who's reporting
to the CEO or whoeveris on the board, you're
helping them be successful.
And that's really theframing around it.

(19:56):
It's like you'reon the same team.
And at the end of the day,you're all on the same team
because you all want thecompany to be successful.
And that's the board's goalis make sure the company
is growing and you don'tdo anything illegal, like
the governance piece.
Right.
And so to some extent, everyonewants the same thing, but it
comes down to the specificdynamics of, okay, maybe the CEO

(20:20):
based on their incentives and,compensation, like they're more
incentivized for a short term.
And maybe they shouldactually be incentivized
more for the long term.
So usually there is the morespecific dynamics within
people and within functions.
And that is where, asan executive, you're
spending most of your time.

(20:40):
So at a high level, you'reagreed, but when it comes down
to like, where do resourcesgo, where do dollars go,
where are we going to invest?
That is where the board can bereally helpful or not helpful
and making sure that the companygoes in a particular direction.
And so often it comes down tohow well one, the board trusts.

(21:03):
The general board of directorstrust the CEO, right?
Because if they really trust theCEO, then it makes things easy.
It's whatever the CEO says,like it's generally speaking,
the decision that sticks.
Sometimes there's misalignmentbetween the board and the CEO.
So then the question for youas an executive is okay, what
do you do in that scenario?
Do you use the board tohelp you convince the
CEO to do something?

(21:24):
Or do you agree with the CEOand you want to go convince the
board to change their minds?
And so That becomes a much morecomplex puzzle, and then there's
all your peers, and what dothey think, and what do they
want to do, and that's reallywhat like "managing" the board
looks like, is managing thedynamic of what do you think is
right, what does the CEO thinkis right, what does the board

(21:46):
think is right, how are theythe same or different, and then
how do you all get together.
And as you land on a directionfor a long enough period
of time for it to play out.
Easier said than done.
This is where a lot ofthe chaos gets introduced.

Hannah Clark (22:01):
I can see why people would need
an executive coach.
So yeah, and speaking of that.
So we're talking a lotabout some of these initial
relationships that are reallyimportant to establish and
get off on a strong foot.
How about in a broader context,what kind of patterns have you
observed in terms of where newexecutives typically struggle
the most in their first 90days, either tactically or

(22:22):
otherwise, or strategically,how do you help them navigate
some of those early challenges?

Yue Zhao (22:26):
So I think that there is, and we've touched
upon pieces of this, thereare so many different
aspects of the role.
There's the company first,which we talked about, which
is like your peers, yourfirst team getting to know
all the different functionsand their leaders, their
experiences, their motivations.
Then there's a board gettingto know how well the CEO and

(22:46):
the relationship with the boardand who the board members are
and how they're interacting.
And then there's your actualteam, which is everyone that
reports to you as well as theirkey cross functional peers.
So in product, you get the joyof like you get product, but
you also get engineering anddesign and data and research
and all the other functions.
So you're trying to do a lotof things at the same time,

(23:09):
and you don't really get theluxury of time because usually
when you're coming into arole, there's already like
a list of 20 decisions thatpeople wanted to get made, but
then that's waiting for you.
And they're not easydecisions because the easy
ones already got made.
They're all super tricky,like there's no correct
answer, gray area questions.

(23:31):
And there's a list of20 of them where they're
like, Hey, Yui, can youlike solve this and this?
In the first 30 days, you'relike, I don't even know
the name of this thing yet.
Right.
And so you're really, I thinkpeople call it drinking from
a fire hose, but I think whenyou ramp up as an executive,
it's particularly true.
And I think that's why sometimesyou actually see executives make

(23:54):
not so great calls early on.
It's because they get forcedinto the dynamic of I don't
really know the company yet.
I mean, I have my experienceand my history, and I'm going
to try to pattern match.
Oh, I've seen this beforeroughly this is the
direction we should go in.
But if that pattern matchis inaccurate, in some way,
then you'll actually seeexecutives make not so great

(24:15):
calls in the beginning, butget better at it over time.
And so, What I generally helppeople with is this like,
when should you make a call?
When should you not make a call?
How do you actually pressuretest your intuition and pattern
matching as quickly as possible?
Like what are some keysignals of Hey, this
thing that you think holdstrue, doesn't hold true in

(24:37):
this particular scenario.
Like, how do you get likereally like your Spidey
sense to be like, maybeI should rethink that.
And then how do youreally prioritize?
Yeah, she's done.
For most, a lot of executivesthat are in like the onboarding
phase, we spend a lot oftime being like, what are all
the things you need to do?
And what are really the thingsthat you really need to do?
And sort of anticipating,honestly, like which balls

(25:00):
to drop and which ones toreally get right, because that
can be just more difficultin the first, let's say
90 days, because you don'tyet have the full context.
You don't know the peoplefully well, and you're
in this like learning.
But also very quicklythan how to decide things
that no one else was ableto decide very quickly.

Hannah Clark (25:21):
This is interesting because I think
I've seen this play out before,because it's very typical
that companies don't hireexecutives on a snap decision.
It's usually a longhiring process.
They're really looking for theright fit and in that time,
these kinds of decisions Buildup pressure and there's a
lot of urgency around tryingto solve them rapidly once
the new executive has beenhired or brought on board.
So in that case, as a newexecutive, you're coming into

(25:43):
a situation where there's agreat deal of pressure to solve
these problems, like you say,and yeah, all of these contexts
that you just mentioned are allvery much real that you've got
a limited scope of knowledgeand a great deal of pressure
to make decisions quickly.
So what are some of thestrategies that new executives
can do to onboard themselvesand get familiar with the
landscape that they'redealing with as efficiently

(26:04):
as possible, and also manageexpectations for making sure
that everyone is on board withthe timeline that's necessary
to make a right decision?

Yue Zhao (26:13):
Yeah, it's a great question.
Writing is usuallyfaster than talking.
So as much content inwritten form as possible.
I mean, I read fasterthan somebody can tell
me information, right?
And so send me decks, sendme previous reviews, send
me stuff in writing, becauseI will process that faster
from a context perspective.
Two is like very quicklyfiguring out like whose

(26:35):
judgment in the organizationtoday do you trust?
And this is a very subjectivething, but I think it is
very important for executivesto actually figure out
who the people in theorganization are that may
already have the answer.
They just don't have theauthority because they're not
the CPO or whatever, right?
But often I find that theanswer is somewhere, and

(26:56):
somebody is very frustratedthat's not yet the solution.
And it's about a kind ofespecially within your function
being like, that director,that VP that engineering lead,
they have a really good sense.
And even if they mightnot even have the answer,
you might be like, can youhelp me push this forward?
Can you help me drive this?
And really getting those peopleempowered to be like, Hey, I

(27:19):
need you to go do these things.
And then usually it's alittle bit of asking the
right questions with peersand other functions in
terms of figuring out again,what are their priorities?
What are their challenges?
What are they motivated by?
One of the first things Igenerally make sure people
understand is the incentivesystems within the company.

(27:40):
I feel like if you don't knowboth the intrinsic and extrinsic
motivators of the differentfunctions, then you don't
really know how they operate.
And so, is this a boy's clubwhere it's like, whoever,
is in the boy's club,they make the decisions.
Is this a, Goal oriented,money oriented culture.
Is this a data oriented culture,research oriented culture?

(28:01):
You've got to figure out howare decisions currently being
made, if they're being made.
And what are the thingsthat work or don't work?
And that tends to be a verycritical point for you to
then figure out, what aredecisions I need to make and
how do I actually make them?

Hannah Clark (28:15):
Now that we're we've covered
Sort of a spectrum.
I'm sure that there'sso much more to learn.
And of course, I wantfolks to be able to
know how to contact you.
But before we get intowrapping up, I would
love to know a little bitabout setting boundaries
outside of your work hours.
We've talked about allthese things, these
high pressure decisions.
There's a lot of pressure.
And even if you do havea fairly stable schedule,

(28:37):
that's fairly predictable.
It can be very easy, even fornon executives to let work
responsibilities creep intoour personal lives and make it
difficult to draw boundaries.
What are some practicalstrategies that you've
seen work well for leaderswho want to maintain some
boundaries while still beingeffective in their jobs?

Yue Zhao (28:53):
I would say one of the positives about
being an executive is thatgenerally you're the one in
control of your schedule.
Again, I say that with abig asterisk of if you're in
an industry where there's alot of governance and legal
and, market changes, that'sgoing to emergencies that
happen, disasters that mighthappen that might change

(29:13):
your schedule, that's acompletely different ballgame.
In general, you're fairlyin control of your time.
You can actually very muchprioritize certain things that
you want blocked off, right?
If you want to make sure thatyou're free from 6 to 7 pm,
generally speaking, if you'rereally strict about it, nobody's
going to be like, No, I have totake your time, from 6 to 7 pm.

(29:36):
That said, it's usuallywe're our own worst enemy.
Well, we're like.
Well, maybe, you start slipping.
Maybe we just do this once.
Okay, maybe we'lldo it another time.
It's a slippery slope, right?
And you're like, okay,well, maybe I don't
protect this time anymore.
And people can schedule.
That's the first thing I sayis if it is a thing that is
important to you, it goes onyour calendar and you and your

(29:59):
admin protect it at all costs.
This is not a thingthat I'm going to do.
And then I do think havinglike different phones, like
a work phone and a personalphone, a work schedule
and a personal calendar.
Is important that way youphysically can have separation,
leave your work phone likesomewhere else, like in
a different room, right?

(30:20):
Like between six to seven.
So you're not gettingpinged and distracted by
whatever is happening.
So physically actuallyhaving different devices
and different calendars.
We'll really helpwith that as well.
And then I think one of thelast things is making it a
norm within the company torespect people's calendars.

(30:40):
So you can help yourself, butyou can also help others be
able to set those boundaries.
And I feel like that's almostone of the most important
things as a leader is if thisis something you is valuable
to you, then you want tomake sure that it's also
something valuable to theorganization more broadly.
Not just out of self interest,but out of you believe this

(31:01):
is a good way to work, right?
Like where you have thatbalance, where you have things
that you do that is respectedby the rest of the team, then
you going out and making it apart of your brand will both
make it easier to do becauseothers are doing it too, and it
makes you stick to it becauseif your self narrative is, I

(31:22):
am the person who's advocatingfor protecting the time.
It's a bigger dissonance if youdon't protect your time and be
like, wait, but I'm supposed tobe the protector of calendars,
but if I don't protect it,that's a bigger dissonance.
I don't make you think twiceor maybe three times about
Ooh, do I really, want thatwhen I tell my team and I tell

(31:42):
everyone else, no, like weneed to respect the time blocks
on other people's calendars.

Hannah Clark (31:47):
Stand by that.
I love how muchwe've covered today.
There's been so muchpractical advice.
I really appreciate yourtime here today, Yue.
Where can people learnmore about you, your
executive coaching, andconnect with you online?

Yue Zhao (32:01):
Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn @yuezhao.
I also run a newslettercalled The Uncommon
Executive on Substack.
And you can find that throughSubstack or through my
coaching website, which iswww.yuezhao.coach, or you can
just Google my first name, lastname coach, and hopefully I show

(32:22):
up somewhere on the results.
You can find me that way.

Hannah Clark (32:26):
Sounds great.
Well, thank you so much.
We really appreciateyour time today.

Yue Zhao (32:28):
Thank you.

Hannah Clark (32:32):
Thanks for listening in.
For more great insights,how-to guides and tool reviews,
subscribe to our newsletter attheproductmanager.com/subscribe.
You can hear more conversationslike this by subscribing to
The Product Manager, whereveryou get your podcasts.