June 18, 2024 • 31 mins
In this episode, David Nakhla facilitates part 1 of a discussion of real-life scenarios with four seasoned deacons: Lynne Hunter, Bob Keys, John Voss, and Doug Vos. As the men discuss, a common thread emerges—a need for diaconates to be prepared with policies and procedures for dilemmas like the two presented in this episode. The first, a member asking to create and lead a new ESL program, and the second having to do with a member of your church experiences a disaster in his home.
Referenced in this episode:
- ESL with Mission to North America (PCA): https://pcamna.org/ministry/esl-ministries/
- Deacon Lynne Hunter: lfhunter1@gmail.com
- Harvest OPC Pastor Adrian Crum: adrian.crum@harvestopc.org
- Bob Keys' list of essential tools:
- Sump pump with flexible hose (40 ft.)
- Large tarp (or two!)
- Generator
- 4-5 small heaters (1500 watt)
- Fan (to dry things out)
- Wet/dry vac
A few other suggestions from Bob (not mentioned in the episode):
- working chain saw with extra blade
- gloves, hard hat and protective eye equipment (for safety)
- appliance dolly (for moves)
- some kind of a truck or van for helping people move or take things where they need to be
Part two of Real World Cases: Policies and Procedures is scheduled to be released on June 25, 2024.
You can find all of our episodes at thereformeddeacon.org. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for giveaways and more information. Find other resources on OPCCDM.org. Make sure to send us some feedback on your podcast player or ask a diaconal question by going to OPCCDM.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
My advice also would be to, as diaconates whether
you're two-man, one-man, ten-manpre-plan some stuff.
Think about things other thanthose immediate needs in your
diaconal meetings, or with evensmall groups.
Think about if we were going toend up in this situation, what
(00:22):
would our diaconate do?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
My name is David Nautilus and Iserve as the administrator for
(00:46):
the OPC's Committee on DiaconalMinistries.
In this episode of the ReformedDeacon Podcast, I will be
facilitating a discussion groupwe call Real World Cases.
I'll describe the case to ourpanel of four seasoned deacons
and we'll listen to them,discuss possible responses to
each.
They're all fictitioussituations, but you'll find them
(01:08):
to be realistic and plausible.
Hopefully this will serve youwith some considerations and how
best to respond and follow upwhen this or a situation like it
presents itself at your church.
With me today are four longtimeOPC deacons.
First I've got Bob Keyes, adeacon from Grace OPC in
Columbus Ohio.
Doug Voss, a deacon at OaklandHills OPC in Farmington Hills,
(01:32):
michigan.
Lynn Hunter, deacon at HarvestOPC in Wyoming, michigan.
And John Voss, a deacon fromCovenant OPC, orland Park,
illinois, and a fellow CDMmembers.
Welcome, brothers, thanks forbeing here.
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
David, good afternoon .
Let's start with our firstscenario.
A woman in the churchapproached one of the deacons
asking if she could startleading ESL classes at the
church and asked for it to besupported financially by the
church.
She says she understands andappreciates the fact that the
ordained deacons oversee theministry of mercy, but wondered
(02:06):
if she could be the one to leadthis effort.
She admits she's concerned thather work not be micromanaged so
that her creativity might besquelched.
She wonders what policies thedeacons and elders have about
the types of ministries women inthe church could lead and how
much leeway they give, and shewonders what that oversight
(02:27):
might look like.
So, brothers, in preparationfor this scenario, what
guidelines or qualifications doyou think a local diaconate
might have in place should thisface your church?
Speaker 1 (02:38):
I don't mind going first.
Lynn, seeing we are alreadyrunning ESL at harvest, my
question would be why is shecoming to the deacons?
And the reason I ask this isbecause this would be a witness
outreach.
Now I'm not saying deacons donot witness, but this would be a
(02:59):
witness outreach that wouldprobably be managed more by the
session.
So that would be my firstquestion that I had in my mind
and, with Harvest Church alreadyrunning an ESL program and
knowing how it works, that'swhere I would guide her and I
(03:20):
would take her to a sessionmember and we'd have a sit down
discussion about it.
Thank you, john, that'sinteresting.
I would do her to a sessionmember and we'd have a sit down
discussion about it.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Thank you, john.
That's interesting.
I would do the same thing.
I would want to meet with herand an elder maybe a couple of
elders, I think.
The scenario where she's afraidthat she might be micromanaged.
I would want to see what thecurriculum is.
At the very least, you thinkyou need to see the curriculum.
Are there age limits?
Are we doing for lack of abetter term co-ed?
(03:50):
Are we doing male and femaletogether?
And then the times, the days.
Is this going to interfere withother programs that are going on
in the church?
And then, is it going to beopen to the public, anyone who
(04:10):
hears about it?
Are they going to be the ones?
Or is it going to be somethingthat's going to be in-house,
where you've got members thatcould use English as a second
language for classes?
Because once you're exposingyourself, if you're going to be
open to the public, you'reexposing yourself to a lot of
(04:31):
other peoples that you don'treally know about, and so now
that opens up a whole new can ofworms about topics, subjects,
how it's being taught, and Iwould really want to know what
that curriculum is going to looklike.
(04:53):
I think the church has to becareful.
Again, you're saying that it'soutreach and it is an outreach,
but what kind of an outreach arewe actually going to be making
and what kind of light is thisgoing to put the church under?
Speaker 5 (05:13):
We don't have an ESL program in our church, but there
are plenty of ESL programs allover the city of Columbus and
the first thing I would do iscontact a number of churches
that do it on a regular basisand find out what issues they
have had, where they've gone Anexperienced ESL person to help
(05:35):
us start that and develop acurriculum.
Now again, if you already haveone, that's a different story,
but we don't have one.
If we were doing one, I wouldwant to get some expert wisdom,
direction from other churchesthat do it.
They've seen the issues,they've seen the problems and I
take a little different stanceas well with John and Lynn.
(05:55):
I think it's a diaconalministry and gospel ministry.
It's got to be gospel ministrybut it has diaconal implications
as well.
I think we need to join it andget outside help to get started.
I would be very hesitant tohave this one lady and I
(06:16):
wouldn't tell her this.
There needs to be a team ofpeople, make sure that we're
doing the right things and thatwe're protecting the church.
I think John is exactly right.
If there's outside people, whatabout abuse?
What about men and women, and Imean I just on and on it goes.
I think we've got to be realcareful and listen carefully to
other churches to see what theirexperiences have been and not
(06:39):
make the same mistakes, I'm sure, as many of them have made in
the past.
So that'd be some of the thingsI would be concerned about.
I'd go slow, I would go veryslow.
This isn't something you haveto rush into.
I would make sure it soundslike a really good thing.
I have a lot of Japanesetenants and they go to ESL and
we actually work with them as alandlord to encourage them in
(07:02):
Jesus Christ.
And they go to ESL and a DublinBaptist church and what a
blessing.
So I actually work with thatand I can see the real benefits
in terms of the gospel ministryto an ESL class when they teach
the Bible and other things andtalk about Jesus Christ.
So, yeah, I see it connectingbecause many people that don't
(07:23):
speak English need English inorder to get jobs and to help
them and to be able to dodifferent things.
So it's a combo to me.
But I would go slow and makesure we're doing things wisely
and correctly from the start andnot make big mistakes.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Good, good, good input, bob, Thank you.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Doug, I know Lin has another comment.
Let me just say we have not hadan ESL class at our church
specifically.
However, a number of people inour church have participated at
ESL classes at the Arab AmericanFriendship Center in Dearborn,
michigan, which is serving manyof the Arabic speaking
(08:03):
immigrants in the metro Detroitarea, and so my wife has taught
an ESL class.
Usually those classes are forwomen.
In fact, it would be unusual tohave a co-ed class.
In some of the Arab cultures,especially the more conservative
groups, like the Yemeniimmigrants, would always have
the women separate from the men,like the Yemeni immigrants
(08:26):
would always have the womenseparate from the men.
So I think this is kind of ageneralized question about an
ESL class that a woman wouldlike to lead in a church.
So I think it's definitely anevangelistic opportunity.
When I've seen them done,there's classes offered at
various times and then usuallyon Friday night they would have
an evangelistic service andinvite everyone to come back to
(08:47):
hear a gospel presentation, todo some recitations in English,
maybe some Bible verses theywould say out loud to practice
their English, and so it's beena great evangelistic opportunity
.
So I think we definitely want toencourage the woman that wants
to start this but discuss withthem, like has already been
(09:09):
mentioned, the curriculum.
We don't want to put a damperon a great opportunity for
outreach.
So we don't want to squash thather enthusiasm or zeal to do
this.
But we just want to align thechurch's goals as far as
evangelism and Bible teaching tomake sure that everyone has the
(09:30):
same goals and is looking at itthe same way.
So I do notice in the paragraphthat it's talking about she
wonders what policies thedeacons and elders have about
types of ministries women in thechurch can lead, and I think
that would lead to somediscussion of some of the
passages in 1 and 2 Timothy tojust kind of make sure that
(09:51):
everyone is seeing it the sameway.
But definitely want toencourage it.
Don't want to squash it toomuch.
So I don't want to squash it atall, want to encourage the
outreach opportunity.
I think Lynn had something elsehe was going to say too.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah, lynn, so the curriculum that Harvest uses
comes from the PCA, particularlyMMA.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Mission to North America Yep.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
I've already developed this curriculum.
It is taught by men and womento ages at harvest.
It was, I believe, 18 to 60.
But I want to say there was 29different countries of 60
participants this year.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Wow, and this was our first year doing it.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
We have a board or a four-member committee that
oversees the whole project andevery session is started with
prayer and Bible verse andlearning that Bible verse how to
pronounce the words in Englishand then my wife teaches
(11:02):
beginners, brand new people thatdon't speak English, and it's
just a matter of showing anotebook and repeating the word
five or six times and thingslike that.
So the basics are very basicand then the more advanced are
very advanced and get into morereal world and sometimes even
(11:23):
theological discussions.
Good, if somebody that listensto this podcast wants to know
more information, you can gladlygive out my name and I'll get
them, or give out PastorAdrian's name and one that helps
start this.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Good, we'll put that link in the show notes.
Yeah, sounds like there's lotsof good thoughts there.
With regards to cooperation theone that helped start this.
Good, we'll put that link inthe show notes.
Yeah, it sounds like there'slots of good thoughts there.
With regards to cooperationbetween the elders and deacons.
This could be a ministry ofword and deed together
Significant need and a goodministry, a good form of
outreach.
Do it with a team, team-led.
(12:04):
That sounds like a goodfeedback.
And then, even dovetailing offof what Bob was saying, just
learn from others who've done itbefore.
Go slow, lots of good feedback.
John wanted to say one morething.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Well, getting back into the scenario where she
wonders policy of the deaconsand how can a woman get involved
in the ministry of the churchand such?
First of all, I think thequestion there is actually
probably more in line witheldership and what elders would
consider roles for women'sinvolvement in ministries.
(12:31):
But in our church we've gotwomen's Bible studies where the
women are leading it, but itstill comes down to the session
determining or overseeing thatcurriculum.
What is it you want to use?
And so they're overseeing thecurriculum.
But even with deacons, while wedon't ordain women deacons at
(12:55):
least not in the OPC very oftenit can be helpful to have a
deacon's wife or wives, maybe agroup of women, who can sit in
on a case.
It's very good to get femaleinput.
When there's a female issue,I'll say, generating the actual
(13:19):
decision, they definitely haveand can have and probably should
have input into that decisionand what's going to be done.
Because, number one, men andwomen don't meet one-on-one.
We have to prevent that too.
And number two, men and womenare wired differently,
(13:39):
regardless of what this worldsays, and women are wired
differently, regardless of whatthis world says.
And there are times when we sitthere and we just you know
bulls in a china shop and goahead.
Here's what the decision shouldbe, and a woman would know much
better what would be morehelpful.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, good, good, yeah.
Let me just say real quick thatone of the reasons I think that
the qualifications for deaconsincludes qualifications for what
his wife looks like is becausediaconal ministry, I think, is
much more conducive to theinvolvement of wives than the
work of the elders.
There's not qualifications forelders' wives.
(14:15):
I'm sure they need to beupstanding women as well.
But yeah, it assumes thatthere's going to be involvement
with deacons' wives in thatministry, particularly as you
minister to half thecongregation as women and, more
than that, as children.
So that's good, bob.
What did you want to?
Speaker 5 (14:32):
add.
I just thought of something andI think in our city, in
Columbus, there's enoughopportunity for women to go to
another church and minister inan ESL program in Columbus, or
that we bring other women, otherChristian women, in or men to
serve as well.
I think this is a gospelministry and I think there's
(14:55):
room for other churches otherthan OPC involved in this.
We got Reformed Presbyterianand other churches.
I just think there's lots ofroom for working together in
something like this in otherchurches and so often we don't
think about that.
But if you get a bigger teamyou can even do a better job, I
think, in teaching, training,ESL, if you get capable people
(15:17):
from all different kinds of, inour case, Reformed Presbyterian.
We have six or eight churchesin the local area.
So I think we should neverforget our brothers and sisters
in Christ, Always remember them.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Doug, I'm going to give you the last word, and then
we're going to go on to ournext scenario.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
I think what came out toward the end here with Bob's
remark is that you should knowthe context of the city that
you're in, and it's going to bedifferent from city to city.
What type of immigrants arethere, what are the languages?
That's right and what are otherchurches doing?
So consider the context of yourcity as well.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
That's good.
Yeah, good input, super, allright brothers.
Scenario number two it's 10 pm,you're just getting into bed
and your phone rings.
You don't recognize the number,but you decide to pick it up.
A panicked voice on the otherend of the phone yells I've got
six feet of water in my basement.
It's almost to the ceiling.
(16:14):
You recognize this voice on theother end.
It's Mike, a longtime member ofyour church.
He tells you that the recenttorrential downpours have now
flooded his basement and it'sclear he needs help fast.
So you hop in your truck, rushover to help him and you find
him struggling to pump the waterout of his basement with a very
undersized sump pump.
(16:34):
From what you can tell,everything in his finished
basement looks ruined.
The only thing you can think toask in the moment is if he's
got flood insurance.
He says no, I never thought I'dneed it.
In your eagerness to comfortMike, you assure him the deacons
will take care of him.
Then your mind begins toconsider the magnitude of the
situation.
And if you've promisedsomething, you and the deacons
(16:56):
or the church can't deliver,brothers, what do you do?
Speaker 5 (17:00):
Found yourself in that situation, Two weeks ago I
was out, got a call from awonderful brother in our church
and he says we're bailing.
I says bailing hay straw, no,he says we're bailing water.
I says what?
We had three, four inches ofrain in 36 hours.
(17:23):
And, um, he says I don't thinkmy sump pump is keeping up.
Is it even working?
I says I'm coming over.
So I brought my a brand newsump pump with me.
I head over and I looked down.
His nine kids were taking waterout of the basement and they
(17:44):
had just gotten over the peakand I watched Niagara Falls come
over the top.
This family is allergic to moldand so it was a true,
unbelievable situation I'd neverseen before.
Some pumps work they work, butthis one.
They actually found out that ithad little particles of debris
(18:05):
in there, reducing theefficiency of the sump.
But they were scared and Ibrought my new sump pump in and
they were able to get it donethat night and I put a secondary
pump in a week later after therain stopped and got that
settled.
But this happens all the timeand you just have to be ready
(18:25):
for these kinds of things thatdo happen and can happen.
And if they hadn't had ninekids, they would have had four
inches of water in that basement, guarantee you.
So again.
But I've never seen NiagaraFalls like that before.
That was the eighth wonder ofthe world.
But these things happen.
These things happen and I havea list of six things that every
(18:47):
church or handyman or deaconshould always have.
One is a sump pump with aflexible hose.
I mean, you've got to have thatAbout 40 foot of hose.
You need a large tarp.
You've got to have a About 40foot of hose.
You need a large tarp.
You've got to have a large tarp.
Maybe two what happens if yourshingles come off in the middle
of night?
You've got to be able to put atarp on that house and protect
(19:08):
it.
You've got to have a generator.
It may be expensive that's themost expensive thing I've got on
my list but you've got to havea generator.
Someone in the church must havea generator that they can take
wherever you need, whenever youneed it, especially in the
wintertime.
You need four to five smallheaters 1500 watt heaters.
You've got to have them.
What happens if a family losestheir heat?
(19:28):
They've got to have these fouror five heaters keep their house
warm so it doesn't freeze.
You need a fan just two orthree fans that you can dry
things out when you have aproblem, and you need a wet, dry
vac or something like that thatcan handle water.
Those are the essentials Ithink that every church deacon
or handyman in the church needsto have and have it ready to go,
(19:52):
because you're going to havethese situations all the time in
a larger church, even a smallerchurch is going to have these
problems and you've got to beable to deal with them.
So those are some suggestions Ihave Be ready as a church.
I know these other guys aregoing to talk about the PDC and
the CDM, so proceed, but that'swhere we started.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
That's a good list, Bob.
We'll try to include your listin the show notes.
I think that that's helpful.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
So Bob had a good answer.
I would say the other thing youneed on your list is another
deacon buddy to call.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
You better have a pickup truck.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
I would call it a deacon buddy that has a pickup
truck.
So I don't have a pickup truck,but yeah, those are a useful
list of things to have.
And then also, yeah, I wouldsay, if you don't have
Presbytery Diaconal Committee,you need, because if the water
was up to the ceiling, hisbasement might have been totally
(21:01):
trashed and might be $10,000,$20,000 worth of damage and tear
out the walls and all thatstuff and his deacon fund might
not have enough money to doanything.
So it's going to be a situationwhere he needs to get in touch
with his Presbyterian DiaconalCommittee and say, guys, we got
his house kind of empty to water.
You know we're pushing thesqueegee around now, but you
(21:25):
know, the next morning it's likeI got to make a call to the
other deacons in thePresbyterian figure out what we
can do.
So that would be the next steps, I think.
Yeah, I'm calling John.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
Or Doug.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I have a two-inch Makita pump.
I could outdo anything you wantwith a sump pump.
You got to be really careful.
You can't overcommit.
You're an individual and it'sone thing to commiserate and to
help, and there are certainthings that individuals in the
church can do.
You can contact people that canhelp.
(22:03):
The first thing in there yeah,okay, you've got to get this
thing cleaned up, and reality ispump it out, get rid of that,
and then, if you can organizesome of the deacons to help get
the stuff out, you've got to getthe carpet out, you've got to
get the drywall out, and that'ssomething that maybe the church
can do without a huge outlay ofmoney.
The rebuilding part is going toget expensive and that's where
(22:29):
the church you have to be verycareful about.
Oh, we can take care of this,because you can't make promises
as an individual and thenencumber the entire church or
the entire congregation.
Like you said, doug, 20,000.
It could be a whole lot morethan that.
That basement's probably got thefurnace and it's probably got
(22:50):
the water heater.
You're looking at appliancesand everything else, and as much
as we want to make promises andhelp, we also have to realize
that there are limitations onthis.
So then and basically, youcommiserate and you tell them
we'll see what we can do.
Let me talk to the otherdeacons.
We'll talk to the church.
Give them assurances that atleast we'll consider helping you
(23:15):
and consider what we can helpyou with.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
We'll come alongside you right.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
We're with you in this, but we can't say that
we're going to cover the wholecost.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Yeah, and even going to a PDC.
This is a cold thought or acold thing to say, but, boy, you
really need to consider gettingthat insurance.
Boy, you really need toconsider getting that insurance.
That's part of being preparedtoo, as an individual, and a
family is to prepare.
We know that we live in asinful world and this is a
(23:51):
fallen place and bad thingshappen and sometimes bad things
can't be covered by thecongregation.
We also have to live in a realworld.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
If I can put my disaster response coordinator
hat on, if you have floodwaterscome from outside your house
inside your house your homeinsurance will not cover it.
If your house system fails, youhave a sewer system backup or
one of your pipes bursts, that'syour system failing and that's
covered by typical homeinsurance.
But if you have floodwaterscome from the outside, inside,
(24:20):
it is not covered.
Now I think we should alsorealize that you cannot always
buy flood insurance.
Some houses flood that are notin a flood zone and they are not
necessarily qualified for floodinsurance.
But if you live in a flood zone, you probably should strongly
consider having flood insurance.
So, yeah, I think that's whatyou're saying.
Speaker 5 (24:39):
Yeah, my point was check with your insurance, no
matter what.
If you talk with them, a lot oftimes you don't know what you
really have covered.
The wording is so complex.
But if you get a good agenthe'll help.
You understand, he'll do thebest that he can to get you help
.
But realize insurance companiesreally don't want to pay out.
(25:01):
In these days A lot of peoplethat have roof damage and a lot
of insurance companies are justnot paying out and this could be
the case here as well.
But at least check, have thechurch pray that it would be
covered and at least in partmake sure you have them checked.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Did you want to add anything to this, Lynn?
I think you've all covered it.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
I think Harvest has a unique situation where we have
12 deacons and if I got the callat 10 o'clock at night,
somebody else is coming therewith me.
We also work hard, and areworking harder, at getting what
I would call a talent resourcebank build up at Harvest, so we
(25:44):
know what guys can do, arewilling to do in different areas
of expertise, and so my advicealso would be to, as diaconants
whether you're one, two man, oneman, 10 man pre-plan some stuff
(26:05):
.
Think about things other thanthose immediate needs in your
diaconal meetings or with evensmall groups.
Think about if we were going toend up in this situation just
like we're talking here, whatwould our diaconate do?
Speaker 4 (26:21):
One other thing which we already said I just want to
emphasize is don't promise orovercommit.
You know, check with your otherdeacons.
That's like like Lynn is sayingcall another deacon as soon as
possible and talk things over,because you don't even know at
this point whether other peoplein your church had flood that
same day.
So you're committing like a lotof resources and you need to be
(26:42):
careful what you're committing.
Just be careful and cautious,but be gentle and kind.
At the same time you're bailingwater.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Under promise over deliver.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
Yes, Two other points .
One I think you have to be verycareful in situations like this
to realize there's danger,there's electrical stuff down
there and you've got to thinkbefore you run, that's right.
Any of these situationselectricals one of the many
potential issues that you canhave in situations like this.
You can step in water and youcan be fried.
(27:16):
You've just got to be reallycareful.
That's what taking to like Isaid, I think that's very, very
wise in situations like this.
And the other thing that I Ihave a story.
But praying is another importantthing.
I don't know how many deaconspray, but this is one important
aspect that, as a deacon, wehave before us is to pray.
Maybe you want to run to it,but you have time to pray.
(27:39):
The Lord is our provider.
So we need to encourage ourdeacons to pray in these
situations, as we travel, as wemeet with Mike, that God would
protect us, keep us and providefor what we need.
I can't underestimate.
I've got a story, if you wantto hear a story.
About 30 years ago we had ayoung family in our congregation
(27:59):
with four kids.
They had two daughters and theyhad two younger sons.
Their five-year-old, like manyof his age, had a Johnny West
cowboy action figure that heloved.
He played with it all the timeand he took it wherever he went.
Well, one Sunday morning afterthe church service, this Sunday
morning after the church service, this young boy took the action
(28:20):
figure into the bathroom to dohis business.
Somehow, some way, this JohnnyWest cowboy figure got dropped
into the toilet after he flushedit.
Well, he watched in horror asthe action figure went down and
went out of sight in the toilet.
He ran out to his father andsays Dad, I lost my action toy
(28:47):
down in the toilet, can you helpme?
So they go get Mr Keys and theysay we need your help in the
bathroom.
And so we went to the bathroomand I stopped and paused.
I really stopped and paused andI prayed Lord, would you make
sure that we get this toy backand that we don't hurt the
(29:10):
septic system and the toilet?
And so I reached my hand downin, after I'd prayed, into the
toilet as far up as I could getmy hand.
I felt it with one of my longfingers.
I felt the toy and I kepthugging and pulling and
eventually I got that action toyout of the toilet.
(29:32):
I was so thankful and I took itto the faucet, put on soap and
water and I washed my hands inthe toy and I gave it back to
him.
An overjoyed boy looked at meand he yelled thank you, mr Keys
, for saving my little John fromthe big John.
That's true, it taught me aboutprayer.
(29:53):
It did.
It taught me that prayer.
I probably would have still gotit without the prayer, but it
taught that little boy whatdeacons do and it taught the
little boy that prayer works.
And I'm sure it taught thefather too.
But I didn't even think we justprayed.
And what a blessing to see alittle boy come and be overjoyed
(30:15):
, bob, this story is worth theepisode here and be overjoyed,
Bob.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
This story is worth the episode here.
Speaker 5 (30:19):
I hope everybody now always wants to listen to
Reformed Deacon Podcast becauseof that, I'm just not sure, if I
want to shake your hand again.
I did tell you I did watch it.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
There's a reason why I never became a plumber.
That's one of them.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
That's right.
That's right.
We're going to stop there withthis episode, since it's running
a bit long, but hang tightbecause next week we plan to
release the other two scenariosthis group contemplated, one
having to do with some concernsabout a newly confirmed deacon
and the other about a gay coupleasking to use the church
building for their wedding.
Be sure to come back for those.
(30:57):
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our website,thereformedeaconorg.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again next month for anotherepisode of the Reformed Deacon
Podcast.
My advice also would be to, as diaconates whether
you're two-man, one-man, ten-manpre-plan some stuff.
Think about things other thanthose immediate needs in your
diaconal meetings, or with evensmall groups.
Think about if we were going toend up in this situation, what
(00:22):
would our diaconate do?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Welcome to the Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed Deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
My name is David Nautilus and Iserve as the administrator for
(00:46):
the OPC's Committee on DiaconalMinistries.
In this episode of the ReformedDeacon Podcast, I will be
facilitating a discussion groupwe call Real World Cases.
I'll describe the case to ourpanel of four seasoned deacons
and we'll listen to them,discuss possible responses to
each.
They're all fictitioussituations, but you'll find them
(01:08):
to be realistic and plausible.
Hopefully this will serve youwith some considerations and how
best to respond and follow upwhen this or a situation like it
presents itself at your church.
With me today are four longtimeOPC deacons.
First I've got Bob Keyes, adeacon from Grace OPC in
Columbus Ohio.
Doug Voss, a deacon at OaklandHills OPC in Farmington Hills,
(01:32):
michigan.
Lynn Hunter, deacon at HarvestOPC in Wyoming, michigan.
And John Voss, a deacon fromCovenant OPC, orland Park,
illinois, and a fellow CDMmembers.
Welcome, brothers, thanks forbeing here.
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
David, good afternoon .
Let's start with our firstscenario.
A woman in the churchapproached one of the deacons
asking if she could startleading ESL classes at the
church and asked for it to besupported financially by the
church.
She says she understands andappreciates the fact that the
ordained deacons oversee theministry of mercy, but wondered
(02:06):
if she could be the one to leadthis effort.
She admits she's concerned thather work not be micromanaged so
that her creativity might besquelched.
She wonders what policies thedeacons and elders have about
the types of ministries women inthe church could lead and how
much leeway they give, and shewonders what that oversight
(02:27):
might look like.
So, brothers, in preparationfor this scenario, what
guidelines or qualifications doyou think a local diaconate
might have in place should thisface your church?
Speaker 1 (02:38):
I don't mind going first.
Lynn, seeing we are alreadyrunning ESL at harvest, my
question would be why is shecoming to the deacons?
And the reason I ask this isbecause this would be a witness
outreach.
Now I'm not saying deacons donot witness, but this would be a
(02:59):
witness outreach that wouldprobably be managed more by the
session.
So that would be my firstquestion that I had in my mind
and, with Harvest Church alreadyrunning an ESL program and
knowing how it works, that'swhere I would guide her and I
(03:20):
would take her to a sessionmember and we'd have a sit down
discussion about it.
Thank you, john, that'sinteresting.
I would do her to a sessionmember and we'd have a sit down
discussion about it.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Thank you, john.
That's interesting.
I would do the same thing.
I would want to meet with herand an elder maybe a couple of
elders, I think.
The scenario where she's afraidthat she might be micromanaged.
I would want to see what thecurriculum is.
At the very least, you thinkyou need to see the curriculum.
Are there age limits?
Are we doing for lack of abetter term co-ed?
(03:50):
Are we doing male and femaletogether?
And then the times, the days.
Is this going to interfere withother programs that are going on
in the church?
And then, is it going to beopen to the public, anyone who
(04:10):
hears about it?
Are they going to be the ones?
Or is it going to be somethingthat's going to be in-house,
where you've got members thatcould use English as a second
language for classes?
Because once you're exposingyourself, if you're going to be
open to the public, you'reexposing yourself to a lot of
(04:31):
other peoples that you don'treally know about, and so now
that opens up a whole new can ofworms about topics, subjects,
how it's being taught, and Iwould really want to know what
that curriculum is going to looklike.
(04:53):
I think the church has to becareful.
Again, you're saying that it'soutreach and it is an outreach,
but what kind of an outreach arewe actually going to be making
and what kind of light is thisgoing to put the church under?
Speaker 5 (05:13):
We don't have an ESL program in our church, but there
are plenty of ESL programs allover the city of Columbus and
the first thing I would do iscontact a number of churches
that do it on a regular basisand find out what issues they
have had, where they've gone Anexperienced ESL person to help
(05:35):
us start that and develop acurriculum.
Now again, if you already haveone, that's a different story,
but we don't have one.
If we were doing one, I wouldwant to get some expert wisdom,
direction from other churchesthat do it.
They've seen the issues,they've seen the problems and I
take a little different stanceas well with John and Lynn.
(05:55):
I think it's a diaconalministry and gospel ministry.
It's got to be gospel ministrybut it has diaconal implications
as well.
I think we need to join it andget outside help to get started.
I would be very hesitant tohave this one lady and I
(06:16):
wouldn't tell her this.
There needs to be a team ofpeople, make sure that we're
doing the right things and thatwe're protecting the church.
I think John is exactly right.
If there's outside people, whatabout abuse?
What about men and women, and Imean I just on and on it goes.
I think we've got to be realcareful and listen carefully to
other churches to see what theirexperiences have been and not
(06:39):
make the same mistakes, I'm sure, as many of them have made in
the past.
So that'd be some of the thingsI would be concerned about.
I'd go slow, I would go veryslow.
This isn't something you haveto rush into.
I would make sure it soundslike a really good thing.
I have a lot of Japanesetenants and they go to ESL and
we actually work with them as alandlord to encourage them in
(07:02):
Jesus Christ.
And they go to ESL and a DublinBaptist church and what a
blessing.
So I actually work with thatand I can see the real benefits
in terms of the gospel ministryto an ESL class when they teach
the Bible and other things andtalk about Jesus Christ.
So, yeah, I see it connectingbecause many people that don't
(07:23):
speak English need English inorder to get jobs and to help
them and to be able to dodifferent things.
So it's a combo to me.
But I would go slow and makesure we're doing things wisely
and correctly from the start andnot make big mistakes.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Good, good, good input, bob, Thank you.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Doug, I know Lin has another comment.
Let me just say we have not hadan ESL class at our church
specifically.
However, a number of people inour church have participated at
ESL classes at the Arab AmericanFriendship Center in Dearborn,
michigan, which is serving manyof the Arabic speaking
(08:03):
immigrants in the metro Detroitarea, and so my wife has taught
an ESL class.
Usually those classes are forwomen.
In fact, it would be unusual tohave a co-ed class.
In some of the Arab cultures,especially the more conservative
groups, like the Yemeniimmigrants, would always have
the women separate from the men,like the Yemeni immigrants
(08:26):
would always have the womenseparate from the men.
So I think this is kind of ageneralized question about an
ESL class that a woman wouldlike to lead in a church.
So I think it's definitely anevangelistic opportunity.
When I've seen them done,there's classes offered at
various times and then usuallyon Friday night they would have
an evangelistic service andinvite everyone to come back to
(08:47):
hear a gospel presentation, todo some recitations in English,
maybe some Bible verses theywould say out loud to practice
their English, and so it's beena great evangelistic opportunity
.
So I think we definitely want toencourage the woman that wants
to start this but discuss withthem, like has already been
(09:09):
mentioned, the curriculum.
We don't want to put a damperon a great opportunity for
outreach.
So we don't want to squash thather enthusiasm or zeal to do
this.
But we just want to align thechurch's goals as far as
evangelism and Bible teaching tomake sure that everyone has the
(09:30):
same goals and is looking at itthe same way.
So I do notice in the paragraphthat it's talking about she
wonders what policies thedeacons and elders have about
types of ministries women in thechurch can lead, and I think
that would lead to somediscussion of some of the
passages in 1 and 2 Timothy tojust kind of make sure that
(09:51):
everyone is seeing it the sameway.
But definitely want toencourage it.
Don't want to squash it toomuch.
So I don't want to squash it atall, want to encourage the
outreach opportunity.
I think Lynn had something elsehe was going to say too.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah, lynn, so the curriculum that Harvest uses
comes from the PCA, particularlyMMA.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Mission to North America Yep.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
I've already developed this curriculum.
It is taught by men and womento ages at harvest.
It was, I believe, 18 to 60.
But I want to say there was 29different countries of 60
participants this year.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Wow, and this was our first year doing it.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
We have a board or a four-member committee that
oversees the whole project andevery session is started with
prayer and Bible verse andlearning that Bible verse how to
pronounce the words in Englishand then my wife teaches
(11:02):
beginners, brand new people thatdon't speak English, and it's
just a matter of showing anotebook and repeating the word
five or six times and thingslike that.
So the basics are very basicand then the more advanced are
very advanced and get into morereal world and sometimes even
(11:23):
theological discussions.
Good, if somebody that listensto this podcast wants to know
more information, you can gladlygive out my name and I'll get
them, or give out PastorAdrian's name and one that helps
start this.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Good, we'll put that link in the show notes.
Yeah, sounds like there's lotsof good thoughts there.
With regards to cooperation theone that helped start this.
Good, we'll put that link inthe show notes.
Yeah, it sounds like there'slots of good thoughts there.
With regards to cooperationbetween the elders and deacons.
This could be a ministry ofword and deed together
Significant need and a goodministry, a good form of
outreach.
Do it with a team, team-led.
(12:04):
That sounds like a goodfeedback.
And then, even dovetailing offof what Bob was saying, just
learn from others who've done itbefore.
Go slow, lots of good feedback.
John wanted to say one morething.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Well, getting back into the scenario where she
wonders policy of the deaconsand how can a woman get involved
in the ministry of the churchand such?
First of all, I think thequestion there is actually
probably more in line witheldership and what elders would
consider roles for women'sinvolvement in ministries.
(12:31):
But in our church we've gotwomen's Bible studies where the
women are leading it, but itstill comes down to the session
determining or overseeing thatcurriculum.
What is it you want to use?
And so they're overseeing thecurriculum.
But even with deacons, while wedon't ordain women deacons at
(12:55):
least not in the OPC very oftenit can be helpful to have a
deacon's wife or wives, maybe agroup of women, who can sit in
on a case.
It's very good to get femaleinput.
When there's a female issue,I'll say, generating the actual
(13:19):
decision, they definitely haveand can have and probably should
have input into that decisionand what's going to be done.
Because, number one, men andwomen don't meet one-on-one.
We have to prevent that too.
And number two, men and womenare wired differently,
(13:39):
regardless of what this worldsays, and women are wired
differently, regardless of whatthis world says.
And there are times when we sitthere and we just you know
bulls in a china shop and goahead.
Here's what the decision shouldbe, and a woman would know much
better what would be morehelpful.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, good, good, yeah.
Let me just say real quick thatone of the reasons I think that
the qualifications for deaconsincludes qualifications for what
his wife looks like is becausediaconal ministry, I think, is
much more conducive to theinvolvement of wives than the
work of the elders.
There's not qualifications forelders' wives.
(14:15):
I'm sure they need to beupstanding women as well.
But yeah, it assumes thatthere's going to be involvement
with deacons' wives in thatministry, particularly as you
minister to half thecongregation as women and, more
than that, as children.
So that's good, bob.
What did you want to?
Speaker 5 (14:32):
add.
I just thought of something andI think in our city, in
Columbus, there's enoughopportunity for women to go to
another church and minister inan ESL program in Columbus, or
that we bring other women, otherChristian women, in or men to
serve as well.
I think this is a gospelministry and I think there's
(14:55):
room for other churches otherthan OPC involved in this.
We got Reformed Presbyterianand other churches.
I just think there's lots ofroom for working together in
something like this in otherchurches and so often we don't
think about that.
But if you get a bigger teamyou can even do a better job, I
think, in teaching, training,ESL, if you get capable people
(15:17):
from all different kinds of, inour case, Reformed Presbyterian.
We have six or eight churchesin the local area.
So I think we should neverforget our brothers and sisters
in Christ, Always remember them.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Doug, I'm going to give you the last word, and then
we're going to go on to ournext scenario.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
I think what came out toward the end here with Bob's
remark is that you should knowthe context of the city that
you're in, and it's going to bedifferent from city to city.
What type of immigrants arethere, what are the languages?
That's right and what are otherchurches doing?
So consider the context of yourcity as well.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
That's good.
Yeah, good input, super, allright brothers.
Scenario number two it's 10 pm,you're just getting into bed
and your phone rings.
You don't recognize the number,but you decide to pick it up.
A panicked voice on the otherend of the phone yells I've got
six feet of water in my basement.
It's almost to the ceiling.
(16:14):
You recognize this voice on theother end.
It's Mike, a longtime member ofyour church.
He tells you that the recenttorrential downpours have now
flooded his basement and it'sclear he needs help fast.
So you hop in your truck, rushover to help him and you find
him struggling to pump the waterout of his basement with a very
undersized sump pump.
(16:34):
From what you can tell,everything in his finished
basement looks ruined.
The only thing you can think toask in the moment is if he's
got flood insurance.
He says no, I never thought I'dneed it.
In your eagerness to comfortMike, you assure him the deacons
will take care of him.
Then your mind begins toconsider the magnitude of the
situation.
And if you've promisedsomething, you and the deacons
(16:56):
or the church can't deliver,brothers, what do you do?
Speaker 5 (17:00):
Found yourself in that situation, Two weeks ago I
was out, got a call from awonderful brother in our church
and he says we're bailing.
I says bailing hay straw, no,he says we're bailing water.
I says what?
We had three, four inches ofrain in 36 hours.
(17:23):
And, um, he says I don't thinkmy sump pump is keeping up.
Is it even working?
I says I'm coming over.
So I brought my a brand newsump pump with me.
I head over and I looked down.
His nine kids were taking waterout of the basement and they
(17:44):
had just gotten over the peakand I watched Niagara Falls come
over the top.
This family is allergic to moldand so it was a true,
unbelievable situation I'd neverseen before.
Some pumps work they work, butthis one.
They actually found out that ithad little particles of debris
(18:05):
in there, reducing theefficiency of the sump.
But they were scared and Ibrought my new sump pump in and
they were able to get it donethat night and I put a secondary
pump in a week later after therain stopped and got that
settled.
But this happens all the timeand you just have to be ready
(18:25):
for these kinds of things thatdo happen and can happen.
And if they hadn't had ninekids, they would have had four
inches of water in that basement, guarantee you.
So again.
But I've never seen NiagaraFalls like that before.
That was the eighth wonder ofthe world.
But these things happen.
These things happen and I havea list of six things that every
(18:47):
church or handyman or deaconshould always have.
One is a sump pump with aflexible hose.
I mean, you've got to have thatAbout 40 foot of hose.
You need a large tarp.
You've got to have a About 40foot of hose.
You need a large tarp.
You've got to have a large tarp.
Maybe two what happens if yourshingles come off in the middle
of night?
You've got to be able to put atarp on that house and protect
(19:08):
it.
You've got to have a generator.
It may be expensive that's themost expensive thing I've got on
my list but you've got to havea generator.
Someone in the church must havea generator that they can take
wherever you need, whenever youneed it, especially in the
wintertime.
You need four to five smallheaters 1500 watt heaters.
You've got to have them.
What happens if a family losestheir heat?
(19:28):
They've got to have these fouror five heaters keep their house
warm so it doesn't freeze.
You need a fan just two orthree fans that you can dry
things out when you have aproblem, and you need a wet, dry
vac or something like that thatcan handle water.
Those are the essentials Ithink that every church deacon
or handyman in the church needsto have and have it ready to go,
(19:52):
because you're going to havethese situations all the time in
a larger church, even a smallerchurch is going to have these
problems and you've got to beable to deal with them.
So those are some suggestions Ihave Be ready as a church.
I know these other guys aregoing to talk about the PDC and
the CDM, so proceed, but that'swhere we started.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
That's a good list, Bob.
We'll try to include your listin the show notes.
I think that that's helpful.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
So Bob had a good answer.
I would say the other thing youneed on your list is another
deacon buddy to call.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
You better have a pickup truck.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
I would call it a deacon buddy that has a pickup
truck.
So I don't have a pickup truck,but yeah, those are a useful
list of things to have.
And then also, yeah, I wouldsay, if you don't have
Presbytery Diaconal Committee,you need, because if the water
was up to the ceiling, hisbasement might have been totally
(21:01):
trashed and might be $10,000,$20,000 worth of damage and tear
out the walls and all thatstuff and his deacon fund might
not have enough money to doanything.
So it's going to be a situationwhere he needs to get in touch
with his Presbyterian DiaconalCommittee and say, guys, we got
his house kind of empty to water.
You know we're pushing thesqueegee around now, but you
(21:25):
know, the next morning it's likeI got to make a call to the
other deacons in thePresbyterian figure out what we
can do.
So that would be the next steps, I think.
Yeah, I'm calling John.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
Or Doug.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I have a two-inch Makita pump.
I could outdo anything you wantwith a sump pump.
You got to be really careful.
You can't overcommit.
You're an individual and it'sone thing to commiserate and to
help, and there are certainthings that individuals in the
church can do.
You can contact people that canhelp.
(22:03):
The first thing in there yeah,okay, you've got to get this
thing cleaned up, and reality ispump it out, get rid of that,
and then, if you can organizesome of the deacons to help get
the stuff out, you've got to getthe carpet out, you've got to
get the drywall out, and that'ssomething that maybe the church
can do without a huge outlay ofmoney.
The rebuilding part is going toget expensive and that's where
(22:29):
the church you have to be verycareful about.
Oh, we can take care of this,because you can't make promises
as an individual and thenencumber the entire church or
the entire congregation.
Like you said, doug, 20,000.
It could be a whole lot morethan that.
That basement's probably got thefurnace and it's probably got
(22:50):
the water heater.
You're looking at appliancesand everything else, and as much
as we want to make promises andhelp, we also have to realize
that there are limitations onthis.
So then and basically, youcommiserate and you tell them
we'll see what we can do.
Let me talk to the otherdeacons.
We'll talk to the church.
Give them assurances that atleast we'll consider helping you
(23:15):
and consider what we can helpyou with.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
We'll come alongside you right.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
We're with you in this, but we can't say that
we're going to cover the wholecost.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Yeah, and even going to a PDC.
This is a cold thought or acold thing to say, but, boy, you
really need to consider gettingthat insurance.
Boy, you really need toconsider getting that insurance.
That's part of being preparedtoo, as an individual, and a
family is to prepare.
We know that we live in asinful world and this is a
(23:51):
fallen place and bad thingshappen and sometimes bad things
can't be covered by thecongregation.
We also have to live in a realworld.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
If I can put my disaster response coordinator
hat on, if you have floodwaterscome from outside your house
inside your house your homeinsurance will not cover it.
If your house system fails, youhave a sewer system backup or
one of your pipes bursts, that'syour system failing and that's
covered by typical homeinsurance.
But if you have floodwaterscome from the outside, inside,
(24:20):
it is not covered.
Now I think we should alsorealize that you cannot always
buy flood insurance.
Some houses flood that are notin a flood zone and they are not
necessarily qualified for floodinsurance.
But if you live in a flood zone, you probably should strongly
consider having flood insurance.
So, yeah, I think that's whatyou're saying.
Speaker 5 (24:39):
Yeah, my point was check with your insurance, no
matter what.
If you talk with them, a lot oftimes you don't know what you
really have covered.
The wording is so complex.
But if you get a good agenthe'll help.
You understand, he'll do thebest that he can to get you help
.
But realize insurance companiesreally don't want to pay out.
(25:01):
In these days A lot of peoplethat have roof damage and a lot
of insurance companies are justnot paying out and this could be
the case here as well.
But at least check, have thechurch pray that it would be
covered and at least in partmake sure you have them checked.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Did you want to add anything to this, Lynn?
I think you've all covered it.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
I think Harvest has a unique situation where we have
12 deacons and if I got the callat 10 o'clock at night,
somebody else is coming therewith me.
We also work hard, and areworking harder, at getting what
I would call a talent resourcebank build up at Harvest, so we
(25:44):
know what guys can do, arewilling to do in different areas
of expertise, and so my advicealso would be to, as diaconants
whether you're one, two man, oneman, 10 man pre-plan some stuff
(26:05):
.
Think about things other thanthose immediate needs in your
diaconal meetings or with evensmall groups.
Think about if we were going toend up in this situation just
like we're talking here, whatwould our diaconate do?
Speaker 4 (26:21):
One other thing which we already said I just want to
emphasize is don't promise orovercommit.
You know, check with your otherdeacons.
That's like like Lynn is sayingcall another deacon as soon as
possible and talk things over,because you don't even know at
this point whether other peoplein your church had flood that
same day.
So you're committing like a lotof resources and you need to be
(26:42):
careful what you're committing.
Just be careful and cautious,but be gentle and kind.
At the same time you're bailingwater.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Under promise over deliver.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
Yes, Two other points .
One I think you have to be verycareful in situations like this
to realize there's danger,there's electrical stuff down
there and you've got to thinkbefore you run, that's right.
Any of these situationselectricals one of the many
potential issues that you canhave in situations like this.
You can step in water and youcan be fried.
(27:16):
You've just got to be reallycareful.
That's what taking to like Isaid, I think that's very, very
wise in situations like this.
And the other thing that I Ihave a story.
But praying is another importantthing.
I don't know how many deaconspray, but this is one important
aspect that, as a deacon, wehave before us is to pray.
Maybe you want to run to it,but you have time to pray.
(27:39):
The Lord is our provider.
So we need to encourage ourdeacons to pray in these
situations, as we travel, as wemeet with Mike, that God would
protect us, keep us and providefor what we need.
I can't underestimate.
I've got a story, if you wantto hear a story.
About 30 years ago we had ayoung family in our congregation
(27:59):
with four kids.
They had two daughters and theyhad two younger sons.
Their five-year-old, like manyof his age, had a Johnny West
cowboy action figure that heloved.
He played with it all the timeand he took it wherever he went.
Well, one Sunday morning afterthe church service, this Sunday
morning after the church service, this young boy took the action
(28:20):
figure into the bathroom to dohis business.
Somehow, some way, this JohnnyWest cowboy figure got dropped
into the toilet after he flushedit.
Well, he watched in horror asthe action figure went down and
went out of sight in the toilet.
He ran out to his father andsays Dad, I lost my action toy
(28:47):
down in the toilet, can you helpme?
So they go get Mr Keys and theysay we need your help in the
bathroom.
And so we went to the bathroomand I stopped and paused.
I really stopped and paused andI prayed Lord, would you make
sure that we get this toy backand that we don't hurt the
(29:10):
septic system and the toilet?
And so I reached my hand downin, after I'd prayed, into the
toilet as far up as I could getmy hand.
I felt it with one of my longfingers.
I felt the toy and I kepthugging and pulling and
eventually I got that action toyout of the toilet.
(29:32):
I was so thankful and I took itto the faucet, put on soap and
water and I washed my hands inthe toy and I gave it back to
him.
An overjoyed boy looked at meand he yelled thank you, mr Keys
, for saving my little John fromthe big John.
That's true, it taught me aboutprayer.
(29:53):
It did.
It taught me that prayer.
I probably would have still gotit without the prayer, but it
taught that little boy whatdeacons do and it taught the
little boy that prayer works.
And I'm sure it taught thefather too.
But I didn't even think we justprayed.
And what a blessing to see alittle boy come and be overjoyed
(30:15):
, bob, this story is worth theepisode here and be overjoyed,
Bob.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
This story is worth the episode here.
Speaker 5 (30:19):
I hope everybody now always wants to listen to
Reformed Deacon Podcast becauseof that, I'm just not sure, if I
want to shake your hand again.
I did tell you I did watch it.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
There's a reason why I never became a plumber.
That's one of them.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
That's right.
That's right.
We're going to stop there withthis episode, since it's running
a bit long, but hang tightbecause next week we plan to
release the other two scenariosthis group contemplated, one
having to do with some concernsabout a newly confirmed deacon
and the other about a gay coupleasking to use the church
building for their wedding.
Be sure to come back for those.
(30:57):
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our website,thereformedeaconorg.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again next month for anotherepisode of the Reformed Deacon
Podcast.
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