December 19, 2023 • 54 mins
Show Notes
On this episode of The Resource Doula, I chat with Hays about their work as a doula, photographer, and advocate for informed choice. And how they help clients feel more empowered and informed so they can have the birth and postpartum experience that leaves them feeling capable and proud. Hays also talks about how to prepare for birth rather than planning your way out of it and what life might look like if we actually honored people's choices when it comes to pregnancy, birth, and postpartum.
Resources they mentioned:
- Spiky squeeze tool for labor
- Book: Transformed By Birth: Cultivating Openness, Resilience, and Strength for the Life-Changing Journey from Pregnancy to Parenthood by Britta Bushnell
- Evidence Based Birth website
- YouTube channel by Nancy Mohrbacher
- Kelly Mom site for breastfeeding and early parenting support
Connect with Hays:
- Follow @empoweredbirthalaska on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/empoweredbirthalaska/
- Visit Hays’ site here: https://www.empoweredbirthalaska.com/
If you found this podcast helpful, please consider writing a positive review in your favorite podcast app or on YouTube! Thanks so much for listening. I’ll catch you next time!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Natalie (00:00):
On today's podcast, I chat with Hayes about their work
as a doula, photographer, andadvocate for informed choice.
And how they help clients feelmore empowered and informed so
they can have the birth andpostpartum experience that
leaves them feeling capable andproud.
Hayes also talks about how toprepare for birth rather than
planning your way out of it andwhat life might look like if we
(00:22):
actually honored people'schoices when it comes to
pregnancy, birth, andpostpartum.
Welcome to the Resource DoulaPodcast.
I'm Natalie, your host, and mygoal is to equip you with the
tools and information you needto make informed healthcare
decisions while having some funalong the way.
Through engaging interviews withexperts, personal stories, and
insightful commentary, I'll saveyou the time and effort of
(00:46):
Sifting through countlesssources on the internet.
Consider me your personalresource dealer, because if I
don't know the answer, I canconnect you with someone who
probably does.
So whether you're a seasonedhealth guru or just starting
your journey, I hope this showinspires and encourages you
every step of the way.
Hayes is a full spectrum doulaand photographer who's been
(01:07):
providing support and servicesto South Central Alaskan
families since 2019.
they're a lifelong Alaskan basedin Anchorage where they live
with their three kids and littledog.
Hayes is non-binary and usesthey them pronouns and they're
proud of how their uniqueperspective helps break
stereotypes and dynamics thatdon't serve birthing people.
hayes's education and experienceis in a variety of areas,
(01:28):
including pregnancy, birth, andpostpartum doula support,
perinatal mental wellness.
trauma informed care, lactationand breastfeeding education, the
physiology of birth, andprofessional photography.
They also volunteer on the boardof the Alaska Birth Collective,
a non profit focused on support,education, and advocacy for
pregnant and postpartum Alaskanfamilies.
(01:48):
Hayes is especially passionateabout creating lasting change in
birth dynamics that empowerclients in birth and beyond.
They believe that how weexperience our birth makes a
major difference in how weexperience postpartum and
parenthood, and it all startswith unconditional support.
Hays (02:23):
Yeah, thanks for having me, Natalie.
It's always good to see you.
Yes, great question.
(02:43):
So, uh, kind of a couplefactors.
Obviously, my own birthexperiences definitely opened my
eyes to a lot of things as faras like, What might not serve
birthing people living inAmerica in general.
Um, but also just, I've, I'vealways been really curious about
birth and babies, even when Iwas younger.
I kind of thought that I mightgo into a nursing career, maybe
(03:06):
doing something with babies andnursing.
Um, So I became a certifiedmedical assistant to begin with
and I very quickly realized thatI am definitely more drawn to
the emotional support aspect ofthings rather than the medical
care.
I kind of got in, you know, introuble quote unquote with my
doctors a lot because I wouldspend a lot of time in patient
(03:27):
rooms getting their vitalsbecause I ended up just Talking
to them and, um, it was hard forme to just be like, Okay, well,
thanks for your vital.
See you later.
When they were having a veryemotional experience with what
they were dealing withmedically.
Um, so that was kind of like myfirst awakening.
It's like, okay, maybe medicalis not going to be my jam, but I
(03:47):
still didn't really know exactlywhat I wanted to do.
Um, and after my third baby wasborn, it was when it really hit
me.
Like I knew what a doula was.
But I didn't truly understandwhat a doula did until after
that birth, and I went, Oh, itwould have made a huge
difference to have somebodythere with me that could have
been giving me the guidance andsuggestions.
(04:08):
Because I'm, I'm the type ofperson who attacks everything
with information and knowledge.
Like, I just want to learn moreabout it to feel more prepared
for it.
Um, so by the third baby, like,I had taken every class and read
every book out there to preparefor his birth, and it still
ended up being just a reallyhard experience in a lot of
ways.
(04:29):
Um, but yeah, so after hisbirth, I also didn't have a job
that I was going back to.
It was the opportunity to starta new career or go down a new
path.
And so I thought I would give ita shot to be a doula.
It sounded really intriguing tome.
It was really the only thing Iwas excited about as far as what
it was going to be.
thinking I'd want to do.
(04:49):
Um, but yeah, and then once Ibecame a doula, it made a lot of
sense because us doulas like tosay, you're born a doula, you
don't, you're not made into onelater, you just are a doula from
birth, you just might not knowit.
Um, but yeah, I'm a verycompassionate, empathetic person
and always have been, so it'sreally a natural fit for me.
And I think I'm good at it, Idon't know.
(05:12):
Thanks.
Aw, thanks.
Thank you.
Yeah, it definitely feel likeit's my, my passion and my
purpose in life for sure.
(05:33):
Yes.
Mhm.
Mhm.
(05:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, so to start, like what anempowered birth isn't.
It is not where you're havingyour baby.
It's not avoiding allinterventions.
It has nothing to do with theXYZ of exactly how it goes, per
se.
Um, it's a feeling.
It's about feeling fullysupported in every choice that
(06:19):
you make.
It's about being fully aware.
Of everything that's happeningto you and your body and giving
consent about those things Um,and it's it's generally just
like not feeling Judged it's notfeeling like anybody's, you
know, coercing you into certaindecisions or guilting you into
things It's it's not even aboutnot feeling fearful because
(06:41):
you're probably going to feelfearful and anxious when it's
something that like you don'tknow What to expect But it's
about feeling those things andknowing that you are capable of
handling it and that you can getthrough it.
Um, especially if you have ateam around you that is
supporting your ability to dothat.
Um, but yeah, so like empowered,empowered birth is definitely
(07:01):
more of a feeling and it can be.
It can look a variety of ways.
Like I don't, for my clients, Idon't care what interventions
they want to have or don't wantto have or where they want to
have their baby.
I just want them to feel goodabout those choices that they're
making.
So if they feel safest in ahospital with an OB provider,
great, that's awesome.
Like let's just make sure thatwe are prepared for that
(07:22):
experience type of thing.
Um, or, you know, vice versa,home birth.
That's great too.
Um, but if somebody is.
Scared of having a home birth.
That's probably not the best forthem to have a baby and versus a
hospital where they might feelsafer.
Um, but yeah, it's a, it'spossible to have an empowered
birth experience, regardless ofwhere you're having your baby
and what happens during thatevent.
(07:43):
Um, and then photography on topof that.
It's really cool to look back onyour experience and get to be
like, wow, like I did the damnthing and I did it with courage
and, um, bravery.
And I faced all of those thingsthat came my way and seeing
yourself handling that, likeit's, it's a really powerful
(08:04):
thing.
Um, and we don't always get to.
Look back and witness our birthfrom a different perspective and
most of the time people haveeyes closed You're very centered
very like in your body during abirth so you don't know what's
going on around you and Andbeing able to see yourself like
handling that and from anotherperspective is just really cool
(08:25):
and really powerful.
I think.
Yeah, I would say, sorry, Iwould say that photography is
like my creative outlet on theside of doula work.
So, like, if I'm there, I mightas well grab my camera and snap
a couple pictures of you being atotal badass in that moment.
(08:53):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I feel like there tends tobe more first time parents, you
(09:13):
know, when it's just somethingthat you have no frame of
reference for is what to expectthat can be, um, popular to have
a doula with you, but it's notthe only clientele.
Definitely there's second, thirdtime parents that maybe they had
a bad birth experience withtheir first and didn't have a
doula and they want to do itdifferently this time.
Or maybe they had a doula andloved that experience so much
(09:34):
that they wanted a doula again.
Um, but there's kind of avariety of who, you know, who's
going to be hiring a doula andalso where they're having their
babies.
I tend to do mostly hospitalbirths, but there's also a lot
of birth center births and homebirths in there, too.
(09:57):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
So, um, like a birth center orfamily birthing center in a
(10:20):
hospital, it's definitely stilla hospital type environment.
Like, they might be more set upto...
cater to like your familyexperience.
For example, Matsu Hospital isfamily birthing center.
They just don't move you to adifferent room when you're
postpartum.
You stay in the same room.
That tends to be the biggestdifference that I've seen as far
(10:40):
as what their family birthingcenter versus the other
hospitals that have just laborand delivery.
Um, and So you have like all thebenefits of hospital support,
but it's just a little more cozyand homey at a hospital birth
center versus a birth centerseparate from a hospital, which
is a lot more like home than itwould be a hospital where you
(11:04):
have just a queen size bed andyou know, like all of the same
Things that you would have athome or if you were like going
to stay at an Airbnb, that'skind of what a birth center is,
but they also have uh, equipmentand supplies to handle whatever
birth events might happen there.
So it's like a good mix of Maybeyou want to be cozy and at home,
but you'd like a little morepeace of mind to have more
(11:26):
medical instruments on hand, forexample, if something were to
happen.
Um, does that make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But even at a home birth, likethe midwives and the assistants
are taking care of majority ofthe cleanup, starting a load of
laundry for you and everythingbefore they leave.
So, but yeah.
(11:49):
Yeah, they really are.
(12:18):
Yeah, so fear pressure, I know,there's a lot to it.
So, um, so fear pressure isobviously a play on peer
pressure where you're likepressured into doing something,
right?
But it's, um, it's wheninformation is given to you in a
way that sounds really scary.
And so you are inclined to gowith a certain decision based on
(12:39):
that scary information, but youmight not be getting the whole
picture or getting to make aninformed decision in that event.
So for example, one thing that Ihear a lot from clients or have
heard stories about is my doctorsaid that I'm going to have a
big baby.
And if I'm having a big baby,that means that the risk of C
(12:59):
section or shoulder dystociagoes up significantly.
And Shoulder dystocia couldleave permanent damage to my
baby.
Therefore, I should induce,right?
But they're not getting the, thepicture of like, okay, how
accurate are these weightmeasurements, first of all?
And then also, what are therisks of induction itself?
And having the ability to makean informed decision with like,
(13:21):
weighing the relative risks ofeach choice?
That leads to feeling empoweredin the decision versus fear
pressure, which would just belike, I'm going to have a big
baby, something's going tohappen to them, unless I induce,
and that's the best path for me.
And that's just being fearpressured into induction, um,
type of situation.
And it really, it can show up inso many different ways and
(13:43):
different scenarios andcircumstances, even if it's,
Like, maybe a doctor didn't sayanything to you that sounded
scary, but in your own head youare catastrophizing some event
or some circumstance.
Like, if I have to have ahospital birth, it means that
I'm gonna be tied down and I'mnot gonna be respected.
Like, so you're gonna be fearpressured into having a home
(14:04):
birth.
Like, we gotta look at all sidesof the pictures here, you know?
And like, that's not inherentlytrue that that's gonna happen to
you in a hospital.
And maybe looking at what, whatdoes a home birth look like
versus a hospital and reallygetting the facts of it.
So you make that whole informeddecision based on.
You know, the whole picture,you're not just getting one side
of the picture.
(14:25):
Um, personally, that was alwayssomething where I feel like when
in my birth experiences, I couldtell when that was starting to
happen and I attack it withinformation.
I just want to learn more aboutit, but not everybody has the
ability to go out and learn likeevery single different decision
that they could make in thatsituation.
And it's also really hard toaccess.
(14:46):
Our thinking brain when we're inlabor.
So if those things come up whenwe're already in labor and you
were feeling like, oh my God, Ineed to make this decision or
something bad's going to happento my baby.
Like making decision under feardoesn't feel very empowered.
It doesn't feel very good at allmost of the time.
Um, but right.
(15:07):
Yeah, exactly.
So I want people to feel goodabout the decisions they're
making by getting the wholepicture and not just having the
scary part of it being fed tothem.
If that makes sense.
Yeah.
(15:29):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
(15:50):
Or even just, yeah, no, justgive, giving, like, one
suggestion as far as, like, thisis how we should navigate this,
but, like, what, there's so manyother choices that could That
you could make in this situationand not just like induction is
not the only option here type ofthing.
Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah I'veeven heard like, um when people
(16:33):
do want to get epidurals theymight be told in a hospital
Well, you should get it nowbecause the anesthesiologist is
about to go off or they're aboutto go into something else And
you might have to wait longerand that doesn't That doesn't
feel accurate to me at all fromwhat I, I have experienced
personally.
Um, and it's also just realcrappy to do that to somebody
(16:55):
to, to pressure them into makingthe decision sooner than they
might've made it otherwise.
Um, cause again, that's anotherversion of fear pressure and
it's like, okay, but what if we,you know, if you want the
epidural, like let's that, let'sdo that.
But if you're not sure aboutgetting the epidural, what if we
do something different for ahalf hour and then reassess and
see how you feel then, or, youknow, even just a change of
(17:15):
positions and change ofenvironment it can make a big
difference in how you feel in 30minutes.
But sometimes doing nothing ordoing something else is like a
great.
Segue into feeling good aboutthe choice to get an
intervention, rather than justgoing straight into the
intervention.
It's like, okay, we've triedevery little thing that we can,
(17:35):
so I feel good that we'veexhausted our options.
And now I feel empowered inmaking this decision to get this
intervention.
Yeah.
(18:02):
Yeah, exactly.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
(18:36):
Um, putting me on the spot onthis one.
Yeah, no, I feel like the firstthing that comes to mind is when
people want to avoid allinterventions, but then they end
up getting interventions lateron.
(18:57):
So, a common one is I don't wantan epidural.
Um, now, it depends on how setthey are on that because some
people are like.
At all costs, I am not gettingthat epidural and other people
are kind of more like, um, Iwant to see how far I can go.
I'm not opposed to it if it'sneeded.
Right.
But the people who are very,very against it, it can be
really hard if you are facedwith something during your birth
(19:21):
where now you do need to make adecision that veers off of your
original plan.
Um, and so, like, I've had a.
This one in particular client,this doctor walks in, she didn't
want any interventions, thedoctor walks in and goes, so I
hear that you want an epidural.
And she was like, no, I don'twant an epidural.
(19:42):
And she goes, okay, well, We'llsee, we'll see how it plays out.
And it was like a veryInvalidating, right off the bat,
type experience with thisprovider.
And I was just watching myclient's face during this
interaction because I normallylike if if my client's talking
to a provider or a nurse I'm notgonna be interrupting or be part
of that conversation unless it'slike something that I could be
(20:04):
really helpful intervening with.
So I was just watching her faceand she was Like, no, I don't
want an epidural and theprovider was like, okay, yeah,
well, we'll see and then kind ofkept came back to it later and
was like, so if this thinghappens, then you're probably
going to want an epidural and myclient was like.
No, thank you.
(20:26):
So the second this doctor left,I looked at my client and was
like, how do you feel after thatconversation?
And she just burst into tears,which I fully expected at that
moment, because this providerhad been very invalidating to
her original plan.
Um, but we talked it over and Iwas like, you know what?
You don't have to have thisprovider if they make you feel
gross.
(20:47):
You can fire them, and so shedid.
She fired that provider and gotsomebody else.
Uh, yeah, and that, thatsomebody else that came in was
so validating for whatever shewanted.
She didn't even question theepidural thing.
But eventually it did get to thepoint of that client needed an
epidural.
She was, it was a long labor andshe was exhausted.
(21:07):
And so, um, you know, I asked abunch of questions.
We tried all, all the positionchanges.
We got in the shower, we got outof the shower.
Um, but she eventually hit apoint where she was like, like,
I don't want it.
I don't want it.
But what, but what happens if Ido get it?
But what about this, if I do getit?
And to me, that was like, Okay,look, it sounds like I, like I
(21:28):
know you didn't want thisoriginally, but it sounds to me
like you're kind of going in thedirection of this might be a
good idea for you in this momentbecause you're exhausted and
nobody, like, I do not wantanybody to suffer through the
experience of meeting theirbaby.
That's just not cool.
So she eventually came to theconclusion of like, yeah, okay,
I think I do want it.
Like, I don't love that I wantit, but I do want it because I
(21:50):
think it'd be helpful right now.
So it went from a veryinvalidating experience to a
very empowered one, because sheeventually got to make that
decision for herself without anyof that external pressure from
the providers, from the nurses,from anybody.
It was just a matter of when shewas ready to make that decision.
(22:11):
And it's a hard, like, that'ssometimes the hardest part about
labor and birth is making thedecision that veers off of your
original plan.
Yeah.
(23:03):
Yeah, totally.
Um, I look for how in controlthey are during contractions,
especially, um, and how groundedthey seem.
So, to me, that looks like,like, yes, this contraction
might be really intense, reallypowerful contraction.
But they are able to take bigbreaths through it.
They're able to, you know,remain using low sounds.
(23:27):
They're not just like screamingtheir head off through the
entire contraction, right?
But if it slowly starts to shiftto where they are not able to
keep their breath under control,or they're making very high
pitched sounds every time, or Asthey start to feel contractions
start, you can just physicallysee them just recoil and try to
(23:47):
pull away and they start losingtheir ability to stay calm in
that situation.
Then to me, that's like, okay,we need to do something
different here.
Whether that is just like a peptalk or let's try a different
position.
Let's try a different, you know,maybe counter pressure this
time, maybe getting in the bath.
Um, or even just like one at atime kind of reassurance.
(24:09):
But if they cannot find that theground in that experience on it,
to me, it looks like sufferingand I don't want them to suffer
through it.
It's like, we have to dosomething differently for you to
stay in control of what you'reexperiencing.
And I mean, yeah, the controllooks different, right?
It doesn't I don't want you tobe quiet.
I don't want you to be still,but I don't want you to be
(24:30):
screaming and white knucklingversus just being intentional
about breathing and usingmovement.
And yeah, that kind of a thing,if that makes sense.
(24:50):
That's a good question.
I know, like, um, curiositytends to be a big one.
Just being curious and askinggood questions, um, that can
help people come to their ownconclusions.
If I'm just asking goodquestions to help them navigate
that, um.
Breath.
(25:10):
I'm always listening to breath.
If they are taking long, big,slow, deep breaths using low
sounds, like that's ideal forsure.
So I'm going to be constantlyreminding them, okay, now take
another deep breath and relaxback down.
Um, but I also have these littlespiky, squeezy things that
everybody loves.
Um, so I don't know, most peoplemight have heard of the comb
(25:31):
trick where you squeeze a comband that gives you sensory
sensation into your hand.
It draws your brain's attentionaway from the contraction
sensation.
Um, Ananda's super helpful, butcombs are not made for that,
obviously.
So I have these little toolsthat are made for giving you
sensory input by squeezing them.
They have little, they're likelittle spikes, but they're not
(25:53):
sharp spikes.
So you're gonna have like dotsall over your hand when you're
done.
And I've had to literally belike, okay, no.
Give this, give this to me now!and like pry it out of their
hand.
I'm like, now catch your baby!You can't catch your baby with
this in your hand! Becausethey're, they're very helpful.
Yeah.
(26:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And there's always such a jokein the doula world, like, new
doulas have They're doula bagswith, like, all of the tools and
all of the, like, little gadgetsand gizmos that they can think
of that would help a birth, but,you know, doing this for four
years, my birth bag consists ofa change of clothes for me, a
(27:13):
whole bunch of snacks for me,and then, and then, like, a tiny
pouch of, like, those spikythings and some coconut oil, and
that's kind of about it, like,you don't need much.
I tend to just I'm good atadapting and using what we do
have on hand and stuff likethat.
So, yeah, you're totally right.
(28:03):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Okay, so the first thing thatcomes to mind is my favorite
quote ever.
It's by Peter Levine, who's atrauma expert.
Um, and that trauma is not whathappens to us, but what happens
inside of us in the absence ofan empathetic witness.
(28:25):
And I think that just speaksvolume as to, like, the most
basic thing that a doula canprovide is their presence.
And knowing that, like, somebodyis not alone in this experience.
Somebody sees them.
Like, I hear you.
I see you.
I'm here for you, specifically.
That can make a huge differencein feeling traumatized by a
birth versus not.
(28:45):
Um, but really, it, like youjust mentioned before, it's more
about what happens inside of usthroughout each moment of this
experience.
So somebody who has faced...
trauma, whether that's birthtrauma or otherwise, one of the
biggest tools that's helpful tothem is just constant
communication.
Like, I am talking througheverything that's happening
(29:06):
around them, to them, so theyare completely informed and
aware of what's going on.
Also, what might happen next,and preparing them mentally,
like, okay, this means that thenext step is this.
And that way, When the next stepcomes, they're not surprised by
it.
They feel like, okay, I wasexpecting this to happen.
I mentally prepared forwhatever's going to happen next.
(29:29):
Um, but then for example, likewhen, when we can't predict
certain things, um, a big one islike when babies need help.
Getting started breathing afterbirth.
That's terrifying if you don'tknow what's happening.
Um, and it's terrifying if youdon't know what normal newborns
look like.
Like babies come out very blueand purple, right?
And so immediately people can belike, are they okay?
(29:51):
And then you see that your babyneeds extra help and then your
mind goes to the worst casescenario.
But if I'm right there next toyou being like, Hey, your baby's
alert, they're awake, they'rejust a little bit wet.
They just need help clearing outthat fluid from their lungs.
So they're going to take them.
And yes, I know that they're,they're rubbing your baby very
vigorously, but that helps themget stimulated to breathing and
like talking through everylittle bit of that so that
(30:14):
they're not confused.
And they're not like.
Their mind doesn't have theopportunity to run away with all
of the possibilities of, youknow, worst case scenarios in
that situation.
Um, that makes a hugedifference.
It really does.
I think that's kind of, yeah.
(30:49):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I tell people like you, youalmost don't want them telling
you what's happening in thosemoments because you want them to
be taking care of your baby anddoing all they can in those, the
medical part of it, right?
But like, if I'm not theretalking you through it, Yeah,
that becomes a very scarysituation really quick, but if
they're doing their jobmedically and I'm talking you
(31:12):
through it, then it's like,okay, everything's fine.
Everything's fine.
Everything's okay.
Instead of, oh, my God, what if,what if, what if, and going off
on that?
Yeah, that's huge.
(31:35):
Yeah, it's like birth plans.
Yeah, I think your birth planis, it shouldn't be a plan.
It's like your birthpreferences, right?
Because we cannot, we can'tpredict how a birth is going to
go, no matter how many babiesyou've even had before that.
It could be completely differentevery single time, um, because
it's the first time you've hadthis baby.
(31:56):
So yes, like you can plan a lotof different things, but you
cannot predict how they're goingto go.
So preparing in a way that youcan navigate through the
unexpected to the best of yourability, that's what makes the
biggest difference.
The hard stuff is going to comeup.
Birth is hard.
It doesn't matter if you get anepidural at three centimeters
(32:17):
and don't feel a thing, likeit's still a hard process
regardless of how it goes.
Um, so yeah, it's like thehardest part sometimes is making
decisions that veer off of youroriginal plan.
So if you're set on like, acertain way of things going,
that can create a lot of traumain itself, a lot of suffering in
(32:37):
itself if it does veer off ofthat.
So, preparing your way throughit instead, instead of expecting
it, if you plan this wellenough, then nothing bad's gonna
happen.
That was kind of my third birthexperience, too, by the way.
It was like, I, yeah, it waslike, I, I planned so many
things, and I educated myself inso many ways, but ultimately, I
(33:01):
the navigating through it iswhat made or break the
experience.
So yeah, like that's ultimatelywhat will lead to an empowered
experience is when you prepareyour way through it versus
planning your way out of it.
Yeah, having a flexible mindset,I think is very key.
(33:42):
Um, knowing that yes, we canplan for everything to go a
certain way, but that doesn'tmean it's going to happen that
way.
Um, I think that is one of thebiggest things.
And so, like, using affirmationsand meditations regarding, like,
yes, I can do hard things.
I can face challenges and getthrough them type of thing
(34:04):
versus, um, like, yes, you cando hard things, but you don't
have to do hard things.
If you don't want to or don'tneed to in that moment, like,
like, I like with the epiduralthing, right?
I tell people, I know you can doit without any interventions or
epidurals or whatever, but Idon't think that you have to do
it that way.
(34:24):
Like, maybe that's not what'sbest for you right now.
So having that mindset of like,what is the next right thing for
me?
Now, not what is the, if I makethis choice, then it's going to
lead to this and this and thislater down the road, but what is
the next right choice right infront of me right now?
That I can make and just takingit one little decision at a time
(34:46):
helps you be more flexible withyour mindset as far as getting
through the birth experience.
Um, and then, yeah, I mean, yourbody, like, I think taking good
care of your body in general isgreat, but if we focus too much
on, like, if I do these, if I doprenatal yoga every day, that's
going to set me up for a betterbirth.
(35:07):
I don't, I don't hold fast toanything like that.
Because I don't think that'sinherently true.
We have bodies that just do whatthey want to do.
Your baby has a mind of theirown, unfortunately.
That's the hardest part ofparenting right there, is that
your baby has a mind of theirown, and you don't get to make
every decision because they haveinfluence over that.
So, um, yeah, I feel like, youknow, do things that are healthy
(35:30):
and make you feel good, but justnot holding on to having one
particular outcome if you dothis thing, if that makes sense.
And then having people aroundyou that you trust and feel
supported by, for sure, youdon't, if your care provider
makes you feel any type of way,if they make you feel guilty, or
if they make you feel likebelittled, or maybe, um, they
(35:55):
act like you aren't aware ofcertain things, or, you know,
talk down to you, like, that'sThat's a red flag, in my
opinion, and you should just paymore attention to that.
Like, lean into it, get curiousof like, why does this thing
make me feel this way?
How could that play out whenyou're actually in the birth
experience?
Um, and this is like, almost,almost a side tangent, but also
(36:17):
kind of the same thing.
You, like, knowing yourprovider's rate of intervention,
because that becomes your riskof intervention.
So, if your provider has a 50percent c section rate, It's
important to be aware of thatbecause then your risk of c
section is 50%, like,inherently.
So, setting yourself up with ateam that you feel good about
(36:38):
and that you trust, regardlessof, you know, what happens.
You want your care provider tobe aligned with yourself and
where you want to go with thisexperience.
Yeah, right?
(37:01):
Yeah, I could probably go on alittle mini tangent about how we
live in a patriarchy.
Misogyny is real, and when youare a woman giving birth and
maybe, I don't really know ifit's a male OB or just an OB in
general, but like, the authorityfigure in that situation can
make us feel small as is withoutthem saying things that add to
(37:24):
that.
So it's important to be aware ofhow our society can also be set
up to disempower us in certainways and how to navigate that
part of it too.
Like believing women when theysay something like, if you tell
me something, I believe, I know,right?
It just makes me roll my eyes sohard.
Cause it's like, Yeah, whywouldn't you believe somebody
(37:46):
when they're sharing what theirexperience is or what their
feelings are or whatever?
Like, it's not up to me to belike, I think you're wrong.
Like, how do I know?
I'm not you.
(38:13):
Um, well, we'd be under amatriarchy and not a patriarchy,
but, um, that's a really hardquestion.
I don't know.
(38:43):
Like, my ideal?
Um, yeah, it would be, for one,Respecting people's choices
about their body and how theywant to experience something is
a big one to me.
Um, and from the get go, right,if somebody is not sure if they
even want to have kids, it's, Ithink, important to explore why
(39:05):
would you want to, why don't youwant to?
Because sometimes the reason forchoosing children is like, this
is what we do, and that's it.
Like, we're just...
It's taught from a young agethat you get married and then
you have babies and then youraise your babies, but like,
that's not best for everybody,that's not what everybody wants
for themselves.
Um, so it starts there.
It's like, you know, yourreasons why.
(39:28):
Um, and then from that point,it's like, for one, I think
we're getting better about thebelief that women are strong.
In general, we can handle hardthings, right?
And like, birth is somethingthat is hard and challenging,
and we can handle it, if we wantto, without any interventions.
But also, if you do chooseinterventions, that's okay too.
(39:52):
It's just a matter of what'sbest for that individual person.
Um, you know, there's a lot ofmorality that can play into
birth choices, like If people doget an epidural and then they're
like, Oh my god, that means Ifailed or that I'm not strong.
But like, that, that pisses meoff, for lack of a better word
there.
Because it's just not true!Like, it's so not true.
(40:15):
Take the morality out of thosekind of choices.
It means nothing about yourstrength or your ability to do
hard things if you opt to use atool that's available to you.
Um, and then going intoparenthood and postpartum too,
it's like, it's not best foreverybody to breastfeed.
It's not best for everybody tobe a stay at home parent.
(40:35):
It's not best for everybody toparent a certain way because
that's not what works for them,so.
Letting people make thosechoices in a way that doesn't
make them feel guilty aboutchoosing one thing over another
is really key.
Um, like personally I didbreastfeed my babies, but I also
had a, like I didn't havecomplications with it, I had a
pretty easy time getting startedwith it.
(40:57):
If I had had complications, Iwas already in the mindset of
like, formula is bad.
Like, why?
It's a tool that we can use tofeed our babies if we need it,
and there's no point insuffering through something
because one way is better thanthe other.
It's not better if you'resuffering.
Um, yeah.
(41:19):
Yeah, which also leads into,like, stay at home parents.
If you want to stay home withyour babies, then that's great,
but if you are staying home withyour babies because you think
that you should, and because itmakes you okay, a bad parent,
quote unquote, um, to go towork.
Like, I don't love that.
Personally, I'm not built to bea stay at home parent.
(41:40):
I very much like the opportunityto go out into the world and be
around other grown ups and, youknow, do things that I love to
do as an autonomous human beingand not just a parent.
Like, I'm more than just aparent, and so is everybody else
that's having babies, if thatmakes sense.
Okay, that would be my, myideal.
(42:05):
I think you're more than justthat.
I think eventually, I think wehave a long way to go.
There's a lot of systems inAmerica that need some help and
support, but I think that thetrend is going that way for
sure.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
(42:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
(42:59):
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We, we just can't be it all, wecan't do it all.
We kind of have to, we have topick and choose just to save our
energy and protect our peace ina lot of ways.
(43:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
(43:54):
Yeah, definitely.
And kind of like on that note,that makes me think of some
situations where there's peoplewho might want doula support,
but their partner doesn't, forwhatever reason.
Like, maybe there's just amisconception about what a doula
does, or maybe they just feellike it's not needed, or
whatever.
But I'm a firm believer that ifone partner wants support, then
(44:15):
you should get support.
Like, if the other partnerdoesn't, okay, but you should
get support if one person does.
All the way through parenthood,right?
Yeah.
(44:39):
Yeah, I mean, partners tend tobe, like, the biggest fans after
a birth.
It's like, oh my god, I can'tbelieve, like, I can't imagine
doing that without you here,type of thing.
That's usually...
Partners gush over that almostmore than the birthing person
sometimes.
(45:05):
Yeah.
Yeah, I kind of give like a minilecture to partners during
prenatal visits of like, if Itell you to go take a nap or go
outside for some fresh air or goeat something, do it.
Don't be like, I'm good.
I'm fine.
I'm okay.
Like, you got to take care ofyour own needs so that you can
take care of both of them.
So same concept with having adoula with you to help take care
(45:27):
of you so that you can then takecare of your baby.
(45:49):
Yes.
Okay.
So I had to think about this alittle bit.
Um, one of my favorite booksthat I've ever read is called
transformed by birth.
A subtitle is creating openness,resilience and strength for the
life changing journey frompregnancy to parenthood.
It's by Britta Bushnell,Bushnell.
Um, and it, yeah, it's aboutnavigating the whole journey and
(46:12):
not just about.
The end goal, per se.
So, I love that book.
Um, Evidence Based Birth websiteis great for finding evidence
based information and resourcesthere.
Um, and a YouTube channel byNancy Morbacher is one that I
share with almost everybody.
Uh, it's specifically a playlistcalled Natural Breastfeeding How
(46:35):
To's.
And just, like, the way that sheexplains breastfeeding and the
basics of it, I think is justvery, like, well said and to the
point.
So I love that one.
Um, and then Kelly Mom is a goodwebsite for breastfeeding and
early parent support, too.
Those are, like, my top onesthat I can think of.
I know there's lots of greatReally?
(46:58):
Okay.
Yeah, you should read it.
Let me know what you think ofit.
I know there's lots of greatsocial media accounts and stuff
too, but honestly, I'm terribleabout social media, so I just
get on there, yeah, I just postabout business stuff, that's
like the only reason I get onthere.
(47:20):
Yeah.
(47:43):
Yeah.
Um, I guess the number one thingthat I would give advice on is
that, Like everybody's differentin the sense of we've all had
different experiences throughoutour entire lives that have added
(48:04):
up into who we are today.
Um, so it's important thatpeople meet you where you're at
in birth and not expect certainthings from you.
Based on whatever, just knowingthat, like, we're such
individual people, um, andtherefore two different people
can experience the exact sameevent or circumstance and walk
(48:26):
away with two very differentfeelings about what just
happened.
Um, so again, doesn't matter theX, Y, Z of how your birth goes.
It just matters how you feelabout how it's going, um, during
the event, because, yeah, it'slike, it doesn't mean anything
about how strong you are, howresilient you are, or.
or whatever, your ability tohandle pain, it doesn't matter.
(48:46):
It just matters of like, did youfeel supported?
Did you feel heard?
Did you feel seen?
Um, throughout this experiencebecause we're just so individual
as people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think so.
I think that that's very helpfulin so many different situations
(49:08):
and circumstances to rememberthat.
So my favorite one to share withpeople too is, um, stretching
like a baby when you wake up.
(49:29):
Like, full on, arms up, archyour back, pull your knees up,
like, the full, big babystretch.
It feels so good.
I know, right?
I don't know, like, generally westop doing it at some point,
but, working with babies andseeing them do it, just, it
always reminds me of like, Oh,that feels so good.
(49:51):
Yes, let's do that.
You know?
That's probably my favorite one.
Um, but also, I am veryintentional about protecting
sleep and protecting my energyfrom things that drain it.
So I encourage other people todo the same, whether that's like
You know, saying no to certainthings that maybe you feel
(50:12):
pressured into doing, butdoesn't really fulfill you or,
um, setting really firmboundaries with certain people
in your lives because you knowthat they tend to drain your
energy more than fill it.
Um, and protecting my sleep inthe sense of like, yeah, it's
really hard to just turn off ashow sometimes and go to the
frick to bed, but you just needto, because you feel so much
(50:33):
better in the morning if youjust turn it off, go to bed.
So I try to be very intentionalabout that.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
When you, especially when youhave babies, you kind of tend to
realize certain things about howyou could better care for
yourself because you're doingthese things for your baby, but
(50:55):
you're not doing them foryourself.
That doesn't make sense.
And also, you're just betterable to show up as a parent when
you feel well taken care of.
(51:17):
Absolutely.
Um, so I have a website, wwwempower birth alaska.com.
Pretty easy.
You can find me.
Also on Facebook and Instagram.
It's at Empowered Birth Alaskaeverywhere.
Um, and the services I offer,birth doula support is a big
one.
Birth photography is a big one.
(51:38):
I do a combination, what I calldoula tog, where I'm both.
Um, and then I also dopostpartum doula support and
lifestyle photography.
So that can be maternity andnewborn.
Just very like chill settingtype photography.
Um, yeah, and if you want tobook with me or want to get in
touch with me, there is acontact form on my website or
(51:59):
linked in social media, I think.
Yeah, fill out my contact formand I will be in touch very
shortly to set up a consultwhere we can just chat and make
sure that we're a good fit foreach other and get to know each
other a little bit that way.
Perfect.
(52:23):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for having me,Natalie.
It's always a pleasure to chatwith you.
Natalie (52:34):
I loved my conversation with Hayes.
Clearly you can see theirpassion and empathy when it
comes to supporting moms andparents who want an empowered
birthing experience.
I have linked all theirrecommended resources as well as
their sites and social pages inthe show notes so you can find
them easily.
Please remember that what youhear on this podcast is not
medical advice, but remember toalways be an active participant
(52:56):
in your care, and talk to yourhealthcare team before making
important decisions.
If you found this podcasthelpful, please consider leaving
a 5 star rating on Spotify orwriting a positive review in
Apple Podcasts, as this reallyhelps other people find this
show.
Thank you so much for listening.
I'll catch you next time.
On today's podcast, I chat with Hayes about their work
as a doula, photographer, andadvocate for informed choice.
And how they help clients feelmore empowered and informed so
they can have the birth andpostpartum experience that
leaves them feeling capable andproud.
Hayes also talks about how toprepare for birth rather than
planning your way out of it andwhat life might look like if we
(00:22):
actually honored people'schoices when it comes to
pregnancy, birth, andpostpartum.
Welcome to the Resource DoulaPodcast.
I'm Natalie, your host, and mygoal is to equip you with the
tools and information you needto make informed healthcare
decisions while having some funalong the way.
Through engaging interviews withexperts, personal stories, and
insightful commentary, I'll saveyou the time and effort of
(00:46):
Sifting through countlesssources on the internet.
Consider me your personalresource dealer, because if I
don't know the answer, I canconnect you with someone who
probably does.
So whether you're a seasonedhealth guru or just starting
your journey, I hope this showinspires and encourages you
every step of the way.
Hayes is a full spectrum doulaand photographer who's been
(01:07):
providing support and servicesto South Central Alaskan
families since 2019.
they're a lifelong Alaskan basedin Anchorage where they live
with their three kids and littledog.
Hayes is non-binary and usesthey them pronouns and they're
proud of how their uniqueperspective helps break
stereotypes and dynamics thatdon't serve birthing people.
hayes's education and experienceis in a variety of areas,
(01:28):
including pregnancy, birth, andpostpartum doula support,
perinatal mental wellness.
trauma informed care, lactationand breastfeeding education, the
physiology of birth, andprofessional photography.
They also volunteer on the boardof the Alaska Birth Collective,
a non profit focused on support,education, and advocacy for
pregnant and postpartum Alaskanfamilies.
(01:48):
Hayes is especially passionateabout creating lasting change in
birth dynamics that empowerclients in birth and beyond.
They believe that how weexperience our birth makes a
major difference in how weexperience postpartum and
parenthood, and it all startswith unconditional support.
Hays (02:23):
Yeah, thanks for having me, Natalie.
It's always good to see you.
Yes, great question.
(02:43):
So, uh, kind of a couplefactors.
Obviously, my own birthexperiences definitely opened my
eyes to a lot of things as faras like, What might not serve
birthing people living inAmerica in general.
Um, but also just, I've, I'vealways been really curious about
birth and babies, even when Iwas younger.
I kind of thought that I mightgo into a nursing career, maybe
(03:06):
doing something with babies andnursing.
Um, So I became a certifiedmedical assistant to begin with
and I very quickly realized thatI am definitely more drawn to
the emotional support aspect ofthings rather than the medical
care.
I kind of got in, you know, introuble quote unquote with my
doctors a lot because I wouldspend a lot of time in patient
(03:27):
rooms getting their vitalsbecause I ended up just Talking
to them and, um, it was hard forme to just be like, Okay, well,
thanks for your vital.
See you later.
When they were having a veryemotional experience with what
they were dealing withmedically.
Um, so that was kind of like myfirst awakening.
It's like, okay, maybe medicalis not going to be my jam, but I
(03:47):
still didn't really know exactlywhat I wanted to do.
Um, and after my third baby wasborn, it was when it really hit
me.
Like I knew what a doula was.
But I didn't truly understandwhat a doula did until after
that birth, and I went, Oh, itwould have made a huge
difference to have somebodythere with me that could have
been giving me the guidance andsuggestions.
(04:08):
Because I'm, I'm the type ofperson who attacks everything
with information and knowledge.
Like, I just want to learn moreabout it to feel more prepared
for it.
Um, so by the third baby, like,I had taken every class and read
every book out there to preparefor his birth, and it still
ended up being just a reallyhard experience in a lot of
ways.
(04:29):
Um, but yeah, so after hisbirth, I also didn't have a job
that I was going back to.
It was the opportunity to starta new career or go down a new
path.
And so I thought I would give ita shot to be a doula.
It sounded really intriguing tome.
It was really the only thing Iwas excited about as far as what
it was going to be.
thinking I'd want to do.
(04:49):
Um, but yeah, and then once Ibecame a doula, it made a lot of
sense because us doulas like tosay, you're born a doula, you
don't, you're not made into onelater, you just are a doula from
birth, you just might not knowit.
Um, but yeah, I'm a verycompassionate, empathetic person
and always have been, so it'sreally a natural fit for me.
And I think I'm good at it, Idon't know.
(05:12):
Thanks.
Aw, thanks.
Thank you.
Yeah, it definitely feel likeit's my, my passion and my
purpose in life for sure.
(05:33):
Yes.
Mhm.
Mhm.
(05:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, so to start, like what anempowered birth isn't.
It is not where you're havingyour baby.
It's not avoiding allinterventions.
It has nothing to do with theXYZ of exactly how it goes, per
se.
Um, it's a feeling.
It's about feeling fullysupported in every choice that
(06:19):
you make.
It's about being fully aware.
Of everything that's happeningto you and your body and giving
consent about those things Um,and it's it's generally just
like not feeling Judged it's notfeeling like anybody's, you
know, coercing you into certaindecisions or guilting you into
things It's it's not even aboutnot feeling fearful because
(06:41):
you're probably going to feelfearful and anxious when it's
something that like you don'tknow What to expect But it's
about feeling those things andknowing that you are capable of
handling it and that you can getthrough it.
Um, especially if you have ateam around you that is
supporting your ability to dothat.
Um, but yeah, so like empowered,empowered birth is definitely
(07:01):
more of a feeling and it can be.
It can look a variety of ways.
Like I don't, for my clients, Idon't care what interventions
they want to have or don't wantto have or where they want to
have their baby.
I just want them to feel goodabout those choices that they're
making.
So if they feel safest in ahospital with an OB provider,
great, that's awesome.
Like let's just make sure thatwe are prepared for that
(07:22):
experience type of thing.
Um, or, you know, vice versa,home birth.
That's great too.
Um, but if somebody is.
Scared of having a home birth.
That's probably not the best forthem to have a baby and versus a
hospital where they might feelsafer.
Um, but yeah, it's a, it'spossible to have an empowered
birth experience, regardless ofwhere you're having your baby
and what happens during thatevent.
(07:43):
Um, and then photography on topof that.
It's really cool to look back onyour experience and get to be
like, wow, like I did the damnthing and I did it with courage
and, um, bravery.
And I faced all of those thingsthat came my way and seeing
yourself handling that, likeit's, it's a really powerful
(08:04):
thing.
Um, and we don't always get to.
Look back and witness our birthfrom a different perspective and
most of the time people haveeyes closed You're very centered
very like in your body during abirth so you don't know what's
going on around you and Andbeing able to see yourself like
handling that and from anotherperspective is just really cool
(08:25):
and really powerful.
I think.
Yeah, I would say, sorry, Iwould say that photography is
like my creative outlet on theside of doula work.
So, like, if I'm there, I mightas well grab my camera and snap
a couple pictures of you being atotal badass in that moment.
(08:53):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I feel like there tends tobe more first time parents, you
(09:13):
know, when it's just somethingthat you have no frame of
reference for is what to expectthat can be, um, popular to have
a doula with you, but it's notthe only clientele.
Definitely there's second, thirdtime parents that maybe they had
a bad birth experience withtheir first and didn't have a
doula and they want to do itdifferently this time.
Or maybe they had a doula andloved that experience so much
(09:34):
that they wanted a doula again.
Um, but there's kind of avariety of who, you know, who's
going to be hiring a doula andalso where they're having their
babies.
I tend to do mostly hospitalbirths, but there's also a lot
of birth center births and homebirths in there, too.
(09:57):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
So, um, like a birth center orfamily birthing center in a
(10:20):
hospital, it's definitely stilla hospital type environment.
Like, they might be more set upto...
cater to like your familyexperience.
For example, Matsu Hospital isfamily birthing center.
They just don't move you to adifferent room when you're
postpartum.
You stay in the same room.
That tends to be the biggestdifference that I've seen as far
(10:40):
as what their family birthingcenter versus the other
hospitals that have just laborand delivery.
Um, and So you have like all thebenefits of hospital support,
but it's just a little more cozyand homey at a hospital birth
center versus a birth centerseparate from a hospital, which
is a lot more like home than itwould be a hospital where you
(11:04):
have just a queen size bed andyou know, like all of the same
Things that you would have athome or if you were like going
to stay at an Airbnb, that'skind of what a birth center is,
but they also have uh, equipmentand supplies to handle whatever
birth events might happen there.
So it's like a good mix of Maybeyou want to be cozy and at home,
but you'd like a little morepeace of mind to have more
(11:26):
medical instruments on hand, forexample, if something were to
happen.
Um, does that make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But even at a home birth, likethe midwives and the assistants
are taking care of majority ofthe cleanup, starting a load of
laundry for you and everythingbefore they leave.
So, but yeah.
(11:49):
Yeah, they really are.
(12:18):
Yeah, so fear pressure, I know,there's a lot to it.
So, um, so fear pressure isobviously a play on peer
pressure where you're likepressured into doing something,
right?
But it's, um, it's wheninformation is given to you in a
way that sounds really scary.
And so you are inclined to gowith a certain decision based on
(12:39):
that scary information, but youmight not be getting the whole
picture or getting to make aninformed decision in that event.
So for example, one thing that Ihear a lot from clients or have
heard stories about is my doctorsaid that I'm going to have a
big baby.
And if I'm having a big baby,that means that the risk of C
(12:59):
section or shoulder dystociagoes up significantly.
And Shoulder dystocia couldleave permanent damage to my
baby.
Therefore, I should induce,right?
But they're not getting the, thepicture of like, okay, how
accurate are these weightmeasurements, first of all?
And then also, what are therisks of induction itself?
And having the ability to makean informed decision with like,
(13:21):
weighing the relative risks ofeach choice?
That leads to feeling empoweredin the decision versus fear
pressure, which would just belike, I'm going to have a big
baby, something's going tohappen to them, unless I induce,
and that's the best path for me.
And that's just being fearpressured into induction, um,
type of situation.
And it really, it can show up inso many different ways and
(13:43):
different scenarios andcircumstances, even if it's,
Like, maybe a doctor didn't sayanything to you that sounded
scary, but in your own head youare catastrophizing some event
or some circumstance.
Like, if I have to have ahospital birth, it means that
I'm gonna be tied down and I'mnot gonna be respected.
Like, so you're gonna be fearpressured into having a home
(14:04):
birth.
Like, we gotta look at all sidesof the pictures here, you know?
And like, that's not inherentlytrue that that's gonna happen to
you in a hospital.
And maybe looking at what, whatdoes a home birth look like
versus a hospital and reallygetting the facts of it.
So you make that whole informeddecision based on.
You know, the whole picture,you're not just getting one side
of the picture.
(14:25):
Um, personally, that was alwayssomething where I feel like when
in my birth experiences, I couldtell when that was starting to
happen and I attack it withinformation.
I just want to learn more aboutit, but not everybody has the
ability to go out and learn likeevery single different decision
that they could make in thatsituation.
And it's also really hard toaccess.
(14:46):
Our thinking brain when we're inlabor.
So if those things come up whenwe're already in labor and you
were feeling like, oh my God, Ineed to make this decision or
something bad's going to happento my baby.
Like making decision under feardoesn't feel very empowered.
It doesn't feel very good at allmost of the time.
Um, but right.
(15:07):
Yeah, exactly.
So I want people to feel goodabout the decisions they're
making by getting the wholepicture and not just having the
scary part of it being fed tothem.
If that makes sense.
Yeah.
(15:29):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
(15:50):
Or even just, yeah, no, justgive, giving, like, one
suggestion as far as, like, thisis how we should navigate this,
but, like, what, there's so manyother choices that could That
you could make in this situationand not just like induction is
not the only option here type ofthing.
Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah I'veeven heard like, um when people
(16:33):
do want to get epidurals theymight be told in a hospital
Well, you should get it nowbecause the anesthesiologist is
about to go off or they're aboutto go into something else And
you might have to wait longerand that doesn't That doesn't
feel accurate to me at all fromwhat I, I have experienced
personally.
Um, and it's also just realcrappy to do that to somebody
(16:55):
to, to pressure them into makingthe decision sooner than they
might've made it otherwise.
Um, cause again, that's anotherversion of fear pressure and
it's like, okay, but what if we,you know, if you want the
epidural, like let's that, let'sdo that.
But if you're not sure aboutgetting the epidural, what if we
do something different for ahalf hour and then reassess and
see how you feel then, or, youknow, even just a change of
(17:15):
positions and change ofenvironment it can make a big
difference in how you feel in 30minutes.
But sometimes doing nothing ordoing something else is like a
great.
Segue into feeling good aboutthe choice to get an
intervention, rather than justgoing straight into the
intervention.
It's like, okay, we've triedevery little thing that we can,
(17:35):
so I feel good that we'veexhausted our options.
And now I feel empowered inmaking this decision to get this
intervention.
Yeah.
(18:02):
Yeah, exactly.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
(18:36):
Um, putting me on the spot onthis one.
Yeah, no, I feel like the firstthing that comes to mind is when
people want to avoid allinterventions, but then they end
up getting interventions lateron.
(18:57):
So, a common one is I don't wantan epidural.
Um, now, it depends on how setthey are on that because some
people are like.
At all costs, I am not gettingthat epidural and other people
are kind of more like, um, Iwant to see how far I can go.
I'm not opposed to it if it'sneeded.
Right.
But the people who are very,very against it, it can be
really hard if you are facedwith something during your birth
(19:21):
where now you do need to make adecision that veers off of your
original plan.
Um, and so, like, I've had a.
This one in particular client,this doctor walks in, she didn't
want any interventions, thedoctor walks in and goes, so I
hear that you want an epidural.
And she was like, no, I don'twant an epidural.
(19:42):
And she goes, okay, well, We'llsee, we'll see how it plays out.
And it was like a veryInvalidating, right off the bat,
type experience with thisprovider.
And I was just watching myclient's face during this
interaction because I normallylike if if my client's talking
to a provider or a nurse I'm notgonna be interrupting or be part
of that conversation unless it'slike something that I could be
(20:04):
really helpful intervening with.
So I was just watching her faceand she was Like, no, I don't
want an epidural and theprovider was like, okay, yeah,
well, we'll see and then kind ofkept came back to it later and
was like, so if this thinghappens, then you're probably
going to want an epidural and myclient was like.
No, thank you.
(20:26):
So the second this doctor left,I looked at my client and was
like, how do you feel after thatconversation?
And she just burst into tears,which I fully expected at that
moment, because this providerhad been very invalidating to
her original plan.
Um, but we talked it over and Iwas like, you know what?
You don't have to have thisprovider if they make you feel
gross.
(20:47):
You can fire them, and so shedid.
She fired that provider and gotsomebody else.
Uh, yeah, and that, thatsomebody else that came in was
so validating for whatever shewanted.
She didn't even question theepidural thing.
But eventually it did get to thepoint of that client needed an
epidural.
She was, it was a long labor andshe was exhausted.
(21:07):
And so, um, you know, I asked abunch of questions.
We tried all, all the positionchanges.
We got in the shower, we got outof the shower.
Um, but she eventually hit apoint where she was like, like,
I don't want it.
I don't want it.
But what, but what happens if Ido get it?
But what about this, if I do getit?
And to me, that was like, Okay,look, it sounds like I, like I
(21:28):
know you didn't want thisoriginally, but it sounds to me
like you're kind of going in thedirection of this might be a
good idea for you in this momentbecause you're exhausted and
nobody, like, I do not wantanybody to suffer through the
experience of meeting theirbaby.
That's just not cool.
So she eventually came to theconclusion of like, yeah, okay,
I think I do want it.
Like, I don't love that I wantit, but I do want it because I
(21:50):
think it'd be helpful right now.
So it went from a veryinvalidating experience to a
very empowered one, because sheeventually got to make that
decision for herself without anyof that external pressure from
the providers, from the nurses,from anybody.
It was just a matter of when shewas ready to make that decision.
(22:11):
And it's a hard, like, that'ssometimes the hardest part about
labor and birth is making thedecision that veers off of your
original plan.
Yeah.
(23:03):
Yeah, totally.
Um, I look for how in controlthey are during contractions,
especially, um, and how groundedthey seem.
So, to me, that looks like,like, yes, this contraction
might be really intense, reallypowerful contraction.
But they are able to take bigbreaths through it.
They're able to, you know,remain using low sounds.
(23:27):
They're not just like screamingtheir head off through the
entire contraction, right?
But if it slowly starts to shiftto where they are not able to
keep their breath under control,or they're making very high
pitched sounds every time, or Asthey start to feel contractions
start, you can just physicallysee them just recoil and try to
(23:47):
pull away and they start losingtheir ability to stay calm in
that situation.
Then to me, that's like, okay,we need to do something
different here.
Whether that is just like a peptalk or let's try a different
position.
Let's try a different, you know,maybe counter pressure this
time, maybe getting in the bath.
Um, or even just like one at atime kind of reassurance.
(24:09):
But if they cannot find that theground in that experience on it,
to me, it looks like sufferingand I don't want them to suffer
through it.
It's like, we have to dosomething differently for you to
stay in control of what you'reexperiencing.
And I mean, yeah, the controllooks different, right?
It doesn't I don't want you tobe quiet.
I don't want you to be still,but I don't want you to be
(24:30):
screaming and white knucklingversus just being intentional
about breathing and usingmovement.
And yeah, that kind of a thing,if that makes sense.
(24:50):
That's a good question.
I know, like, um, curiositytends to be a big one.
Just being curious and askinggood questions, um, that can
help people come to their ownconclusions.
If I'm just asking goodquestions to help them navigate
that, um.
Breath.
(25:10):
I'm always listening to breath.
If they are taking long, big,slow, deep breaths using low
sounds, like that's ideal forsure.
So I'm going to be constantlyreminding them, okay, now take
another deep breath and relaxback down.
Um, but I also have these littlespiky, squeezy things that
everybody loves.
Um, so I don't know, most peoplemight have heard of the comb
(25:31):
trick where you squeeze a comband that gives you sensory
sensation into your hand.
It draws your brain's attentionaway from the contraction
sensation.
Um, Ananda's super helpful, butcombs are not made for that,
obviously.
So I have these little toolsthat are made for giving you
sensory input by squeezing them.
They have little, they're likelittle spikes, but they're not
(25:53):
sharp spikes.
So you're gonna have like dotsall over your hand when you're
done.
And I've had to literally belike, okay, no.
Give this, give this to me now!and like pry it out of their
hand.
I'm like, now catch your baby!You can't catch your baby with
this in your hand! Becausethey're, they're very helpful.
Yeah.
(26:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And there's always such a jokein the doula world, like, new
doulas have They're doula bagswith, like, all of the tools and
all of the, like, little gadgetsand gizmos that they can think
of that would help a birth, but,you know, doing this for four
years, my birth bag consists ofa change of clothes for me, a
(27:13):
whole bunch of snacks for me,and then, and then, like, a tiny
pouch of, like, those spikythings and some coconut oil, and
that's kind of about it, like,you don't need much.
I tend to just I'm good atadapting and using what we do
have on hand and stuff likethat.
So, yeah, you're totally right.
(28:03):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Okay, so the first thing thatcomes to mind is my favorite
quote ever.
It's by Peter Levine, who's atrauma expert.
Um, and that trauma is not whathappens to us, but what happens
inside of us in the absence ofan empathetic witness.
(28:25):
And I think that just speaksvolume as to, like, the most
basic thing that a doula canprovide is their presence.
And knowing that, like, somebodyis not alone in this experience.
Somebody sees them.
Like, I hear you.
I see you.
I'm here for you, specifically.
That can make a huge differencein feeling traumatized by a
birth versus not.
(28:45):
Um, but really, it, like youjust mentioned before, it's more
about what happens inside of usthroughout each moment of this
experience.
So somebody who has faced...
trauma, whether that's birthtrauma or otherwise, one of the
biggest tools that's helpful tothem is just constant
communication.
Like, I am talking througheverything that's happening
(29:06):
around them, to them, so theyare completely informed and
aware of what's going on.
Also, what might happen next,and preparing them mentally,
like, okay, this means that thenext step is this.
And that way, When the next stepcomes, they're not surprised by
it.
They feel like, okay, I wasexpecting this to happen.
I mentally prepared forwhatever's going to happen next.
(29:29):
Um, but then for example, likewhen, when we can't predict
certain things, um, a big one islike when babies need help.
Getting started breathing afterbirth.
That's terrifying if you don'tknow what's happening.
Um, and it's terrifying if youdon't know what normal newborns
look like.
Like babies come out very blueand purple, right?
And so immediately people can belike, are they okay?
(29:51):
And then you see that your babyneeds extra help and then your
mind goes to the worst casescenario.
But if I'm right there next toyou being like, Hey, your baby's
alert, they're awake, they'rejust a little bit wet.
They just need help clearing outthat fluid from their lungs.
So they're going to take them.
And yes, I know that they're,they're rubbing your baby very
vigorously, but that helps themget stimulated to breathing and
like talking through everylittle bit of that so that
(30:14):
they're not confused.
And they're not like.
Their mind doesn't have theopportunity to run away with all
of the possibilities of, youknow, worst case scenarios in
that situation.
Um, that makes a hugedifference.
It really does.
I think that's kind of, yeah.
(30:49):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I tell people like you, youalmost don't want them telling
you what's happening in thosemoments because you want them to
be taking care of your baby anddoing all they can in those, the
medical part of it, right?
But like, if I'm not theretalking you through it, Yeah,
that becomes a very scarysituation really quick, but if
they're doing their jobmedically and I'm talking you
(31:12):
through it, then it's like,okay, everything's fine.
Everything's fine.
Everything's okay.
Instead of, oh, my God, what if,what if, what if, and going off
on that?
Yeah, that's huge.
(31:35):
Yeah, it's like birth plans.
Yeah, I think your birth planis, it shouldn't be a plan.
It's like your birthpreferences, right?
Because we cannot, we can'tpredict how a birth is going to
go, no matter how many babiesyou've even had before that.
It could be completely differentevery single time, um, because
it's the first time you've hadthis baby.
(31:56):
So yes, like you can plan a lotof different things, but you
cannot predict how they're goingto go.
So preparing in a way that youcan navigate through the
unexpected to the best of yourability, that's what makes the
biggest difference.
The hard stuff is going to comeup.
Birth is hard.
It doesn't matter if you get anepidural at three centimeters
(32:17):
and don't feel a thing, likeit's still a hard process
regardless of how it goes.
Um, so yeah, it's like thehardest part sometimes is making
decisions that veer off of youroriginal plan.
So if you're set on like, acertain way of things going,
that can create a lot of traumain itself, a lot of suffering in
(32:37):
itself if it does veer off ofthat.
So, preparing your way throughit instead, instead of expecting
it, if you plan this wellenough, then nothing bad's gonna
happen.
That was kind of my third birthexperience, too, by the way.
It was like, I, yeah, it waslike, I, I planned so many
things, and I educated myself inso many ways, but ultimately, I
(33:01):
the navigating through it iswhat made or break the
experience.
So yeah, like that's ultimatelywhat will lead to an empowered
experience is when you prepareyour way through it versus
planning your way out of it.
Yeah, having a flexible mindset,I think is very key.
(33:42):
Um, knowing that yes, we canplan for everything to go a
certain way, but that doesn'tmean it's going to happen that
way.
Um, I think that is one of thebiggest things.
And so, like, using affirmationsand meditations regarding, like,
yes, I can do hard things.
I can face challenges and getthrough them type of thing
(34:04):
versus, um, like, yes, you cando hard things, but you don't
have to do hard things.
If you don't want to or don'tneed to in that moment, like,
like, I like with the epiduralthing, right?
I tell people, I know you can doit without any interventions or
epidurals or whatever, but Idon't think that you have to do
it that way.
(34:24):
Like, maybe that's not what'sbest for you right now.
So having that mindset of like,what is the next right thing for
me?
Now, not what is the, if I makethis choice, then it's going to
lead to this and this and thislater down the road, but what is
the next right choice right infront of me right now?
That I can make and just takingit one little decision at a time
(34:46):
helps you be more flexible withyour mindset as far as getting
through the birth experience.
Um, and then, yeah, I mean, yourbody, like, I think taking good
care of your body in general isgreat, but if we focus too much
on, like, if I do these, if I doprenatal yoga every day, that's
going to set me up for a betterbirth.
(35:07):
I don't, I don't hold fast toanything like that.
Because I don't think that'sinherently true.
We have bodies that just do whatthey want to do.
Your baby has a mind of theirown, unfortunately.
That's the hardest part ofparenting right there, is that
your baby has a mind of theirown, and you don't get to make
every decision because they haveinfluence over that.
So, um, yeah, I feel like, youknow, do things that are healthy
(35:30):
and make you feel good, but justnot holding on to having one
particular outcome if you dothis thing, if that makes sense.
And then having people aroundyou that you trust and feel
supported by, for sure, youdon't, if your care provider
makes you feel any type of way,if they make you feel guilty, or
if they make you feel likebelittled, or maybe, um, they
(35:55):
act like you aren't aware ofcertain things, or, you know,
talk down to you, like, that'sThat's a red flag, in my
opinion, and you should just paymore attention to that.
Like, lean into it, get curiousof like, why does this thing
make me feel this way?
How could that play out whenyou're actually in the birth
experience?
Um, and this is like, almost,almost a side tangent, but also
(36:17):
kind of the same thing.
You, like, knowing yourprovider's rate of intervention,
because that becomes your riskof intervention.
So, if your provider has a 50percent c section rate, It's
important to be aware of thatbecause then your risk of c
section is 50%, like,inherently.
So, setting yourself up with ateam that you feel good about
(36:38):
and that you trust, regardlessof, you know, what happens.
You want your care provider tobe aligned with yourself and
where you want to go with thisexperience.
Yeah, right?
(37:01):
Yeah, I could probably go on alittle mini tangent about how we
live in a patriarchy.
Misogyny is real, and when youare a woman giving birth and
maybe, I don't really know ifit's a male OB or just an OB in
general, but like, the authorityfigure in that situation can
make us feel small as is withoutthem saying things that add to
(37:24):
that.
So it's important to be aware ofhow our society can also be set
up to disempower us in certainways and how to navigate that
part of it too.
Like believing women when theysay something like, if you tell
me something, I believe, I know,right?
It just makes me roll my eyes sohard.
Cause it's like, Yeah, whywouldn't you believe somebody
(37:46):
when they're sharing what theirexperience is or what their
feelings are or whatever?
Like, it's not up to me to belike, I think you're wrong.
Like, how do I know?
I'm not you.
(38:13):
Um, well, we'd be under amatriarchy and not a patriarchy,
but, um, that's a really hardquestion.
I don't know.
(38:43):
Like, my ideal?
Um, yeah, it would be, for one,Respecting people's choices
about their body and how theywant to experience something is
a big one to me.
Um, and from the get go, right,if somebody is not sure if they
even want to have kids, it's, Ithink, important to explore why
(39:05):
would you want to, why don't youwant to?
Because sometimes the reason forchoosing children is like, this
is what we do, and that's it.
Like, we're just...
It's taught from a young agethat you get married and then
you have babies and then youraise your babies, but like,
that's not best for everybody,that's not what everybody wants
for themselves.
Um, so it starts there.
It's like, you know, yourreasons why.
(39:28):
Um, and then from that point,it's like, for one, I think
we're getting better about thebelief that women are strong.
In general, we can handle hardthings, right?
And like, birth is somethingthat is hard and challenging,
and we can handle it, if we wantto, without any interventions.
But also, if you do chooseinterventions, that's okay too.
(39:52):
It's just a matter of what'sbest for that individual person.
Um, you know, there's a lot ofmorality that can play into
birth choices, like If people doget an epidural and then they're
like, Oh my god, that means Ifailed or that I'm not strong.
But like, that, that pisses meoff, for lack of a better word
there.
Because it's just not true!Like, it's so not true.
(40:15):
Take the morality out of thosekind of choices.
It means nothing about yourstrength or your ability to do
hard things if you opt to use atool that's available to you.
Um, and then going intoparenthood and postpartum too,
it's like, it's not best foreverybody to breastfeed.
It's not best for everybody tobe a stay at home parent.
(40:35):
It's not best for everybody toparent a certain way because
that's not what works for them,so.
Letting people make thosechoices in a way that doesn't
make them feel guilty aboutchoosing one thing over another
is really key.
Um, like personally I didbreastfeed my babies, but I also
had a, like I didn't havecomplications with it, I had a
pretty easy time getting startedwith it.
(40:57):
If I had had complications, Iwas already in the mindset of
like, formula is bad.
Like, why?
It's a tool that we can use tofeed our babies if we need it,
and there's no point insuffering through something
because one way is better thanthe other.
It's not better if you'resuffering.
Um, yeah.
(41:19):
Yeah, which also leads into,like, stay at home parents.
If you want to stay home withyour babies, then that's great,
but if you are staying home withyour babies because you think
that you should, and because itmakes you okay, a bad parent,
quote unquote, um, to go towork.
Like, I don't love that.
Personally, I'm not built to bea stay at home parent.
(41:40):
I very much like the opportunityto go out into the world and be
around other grown ups and, youknow, do things that I love to
do as an autonomous human beingand not just a parent.
Like, I'm more than just aparent, and so is everybody else
that's having babies, if thatmakes sense.
Okay, that would be my, myideal.
(42:05):
I think you're more than justthat.
I think eventually, I think wehave a long way to go.
There's a lot of systems inAmerica that need some help and
support, but I think that thetrend is going that way for
sure.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
(42:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
(42:59):
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We, we just can't be it all, wecan't do it all.
We kind of have to, we have topick and choose just to save our
energy and protect our peace ina lot of ways.
(43:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
(43:54):
Yeah, definitely.
And kind of like on that note,that makes me think of some
situations where there's peoplewho might want doula support,
but their partner doesn't, forwhatever reason.
Like, maybe there's just amisconception about what a doula
does, or maybe they just feellike it's not needed, or
whatever.
But I'm a firm believer that ifone partner wants support, then
(44:15):
you should get support.
Like, if the other partnerdoesn't, okay, but you should
get support if one person does.
All the way through parenthood,right?
Yeah.
(44:39):
Yeah, I mean, partners tend tobe, like, the biggest fans after
a birth.
It's like, oh my god, I can'tbelieve, like, I can't imagine
doing that without you here,type of thing.
That's usually...
Partners gush over that almostmore than the birthing person
sometimes.
(45:05):
Yeah.
Yeah, I kind of give like a minilecture to partners during
prenatal visits of like, if Itell you to go take a nap or go
outside for some fresh air or goeat something, do it.
Don't be like, I'm good.
I'm fine.
I'm okay.
Like, you got to take care ofyour own needs so that you can
take care of both of them.
So same concept with having adoula with you to help take care
(45:27):
of you so that you can then takecare of your baby.
(45:49):
Yes.
Okay.
So I had to think about this alittle bit.
Um, one of my favorite booksthat I've ever read is called
transformed by birth.
A subtitle is creating openness,resilience and strength for the
life changing journey frompregnancy to parenthood.
It's by Britta Bushnell,Bushnell.
Um, and it, yeah, it's aboutnavigating the whole journey and
(46:12):
not just about.
The end goal, per se.
So, I love that book.
Um, Evidence Based Birth websiteis great for finding evidence
based information and resourcesthere.
Um, and a YouTube channel byNancy Morbacher is one that I
share with almost everybody.
Uh, it's specifically a playlistcalled Natural Breastfeeding How
(46:35):
To's.
And just, like, the way that sheexplains breastfeeding and the
basics of it, I think is justvery, like, well said and to the
point.
So I love that one.
Um, and then Kelly Mom is a goodwebsite for breastfeeding and
early parent support, too.
Those are, like, my top onesthat I can think of.
I know there's lots of greatReally?
(46:58):
Okay.
Yeah, you should read it.
Let me know what you think ofit.
I know there's lots of greatsocial media accounts and stuff
too, but honestly, I'm terribleabout social media, so I just
get on there, yeah, I just postabout business stuff, that's
like the only reason I get onthere.
(47:20):
Yeah.
(47:43):
Yeah.
Um, I guess the number one thingthat I would give advice on is
that, Like everybody's differentin the sense of we've all had
different experiences throughoutour entire lives that have added
(48:04):
up into who we are today.
Um, so it's important thatpeople meet you where you're at
in birth and not expect certainthings from you.
Based on whatever, just knowingthat, like, we're such
individual people, um, andtherefore two different people
can experience the exact sameevent or circumstance and walk
(48:26):
away with two very differentfeelings about what just
happened.
Um, so again, doesn't matter theX, Y, Z of how your birth goes.
It just matters how you feelabout how it's going, um, during
the event, because, yeah, it'slike, it doesn't mean anything
about how strong you are, howresilient you are, or.
or whatever, your ability tohandle pain, it doesn't matter.
(48:46):
It just matters of like, did youfeel supported?
Did you feel heard?
Did you feel seen?
Um, throughout this experiencebecause we're just so individual
as people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think so.
I think that that's very helpfulin so many different situations
(49:08):
and circumstances to rememberthat.
So my favorite one to share withpeople too is, um, stretching
like a baby when you wake up.
(49:29):
Like, full on, arms up, archyour back, pull your knees up,
like, the full, big babystretch.
It feels so good.
I know, right?
I don't know, like, generally westop doing it at some point,
but, working with babies andseeing them do it, just, it
always reminds me of like, Oh,that feels so good.
(49:51):
Yes, let's do that.
You know?
That's probably my favorite one.
Um, but also, I am veryintentional about protecting
sleep and protecting my energyfrom things that drain it.
So I encourage other people todo the same, whether that's like
You know, saying no to certainthings that maybe you feel
(50:12):
pressured into doing, butdoesn't really fulfill you or,
um, setting really firmboundaries with certain people
in your lives because you knowthat they tend to drain your
energy more than fill it.
Um, and protecting my sleep inthe sense of like, yeah, it's
really hard to just turn off ashow sometimes and go to the
frick to bed, but you just needto, because you feel so much
(50:33):
better in the morning if youjust turn it off, go to bed.
So I try to be very intentionalabout that.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
When you, especially when youhave babies, you kind of tend to
realize certain things about howyou could better care for
yourself because you're doingthese things for your baby, but
(50:55):
you're not doing them foryourself.
That doesn't make sense.
And also, you're just betterable to show up as a parent when
you feel well taken care of.
(51:17):
Absolutely.
Um, so I have a website, wwwempower birth alaska.com.
Pretty easy.
You can find me.
Also on Facebook and Instagram.
It's at Empowered Birth Alaskaeverywhere.
Um, and the services I offer,birth doula support is a big
one.
Birth photography is a big one.
(51:38):
I do a combination, what I calldoula tog, where I'm both.
Um, and then I also dopostpartum doula support and
lifestyle photography.
So that can be maternity andnewborn.
Just very like chill settingtype photography.
Um, yeah, and if you want tobook with me or want to get in
touch with me, there is acontact form on my website or
(51:59):
linked in social media, I think.
Yeah, fill out my contact formand I will be in touch very
shortly to set up a consultwhere we can just chat and make
sure that we're a good fit foreach other and get to know each
other a little bit that way.
Perfect.
(52:23):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for having me,Natalie.
It's always a pleasure to chatwith you.
Natalie (52:34):
I loved my conversation with Hayes.
Clearly you can see theirpassion and empathy when it
comes to supporting moms andparents who want an empowered
birthing experience.
I have linked all theirrecommended resources as well as
their sites and social pages inthe show notes so you can find
them easily.
Please remember that what youhear on this podcast is not
medical advice, but remember toalways be an active participant
(52:56):
in your care, and talk to yourhealthcare team before making
important decisions.
If you found this podcasthelpful, please consider leaving
a 5 star rating on Spotify orwriting a positive review in
Apple Podcasts, as this reallyhelps other people find this
show.
Thank you so much for listening.
I'll catch you next time.
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