In this episode of the Sober Butterfly podcast, host Nadine Mulvina interviews Kathy, a dedicated member of several 12-step programs including Alcoholics Anonymous, Al-Anon, Debtors Anonymous, and Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous. Kathy opens up about her experiences with substance use and addiction, her tumultuous family background, and the journey to sobriety and recovery. Her story highlights the importance of anonymity, the impact of support systems, and the transformative power of these programs. The episode also touches on the concept of addiction transference and the holistic nature of recovery, offering listeners a profound and relatable perspective on tackling various forms of addiction.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:41 Kathy's Early Life and Family Struggles
03:53 Discovering Al-Anon and the Start of Recovery
06:23 Journey Through Multiple Anonymous Programs
11:00 Personal Struggles and Turning Points
19:47 First Year of Sobriety and Challenges
28:31 Personal Loss and Early Recovery Challenges
28:45 Learning to Follow the Steps
29:39 Self-Diagnosis and External Influences
31:05 Introduction to Debtors Anonymous
33:38 Tools and Practices in Debtors Anonymous
43:19 Exploring Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous
45:54 Overcoming Deep-Seated Trauma
51:31 Advice for Seeking Help
56:32 Conclusion and Contact Information
If you or someone you know is struggling with substance use or addiction, know that you are not alone and that help is available. Here are some resources for support:
- Alcoholics Anonymous (AA): aa.org
- Al-Anon Family Groups: al-anon.org
- Adult Children of Alcoholics (ACOA): adultchildren.org
- Debtors Anonymous (DA): debtorsanonymous.org
- Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous (SLAA): slaafws.org
The episode also includes a sponsored segment promoting a non-alcoholic beverage brand, Moment, highlighting its health benefits and commitment to mental health causes.
Use TSB23 for 18% your order.
Connect with Nadine:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
the-sober-butterfly_31_06-2 (00:02):
The following episode contains
sensitive subject matter relatedto substance use and addiction.
Viewer discretion is advised.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04 (00:10):
Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the
Sober Butterfly podcast.
I am Nadine Mulvina, and today Iam here with a very special
guest.
Welcome Kathy to the show.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (00:20):
Hi, Nadine.
Thanks so much.
I'm so happy to be here.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27 (00:23):
I'm so happy and honored to have you
here and I hope it's okay.
I'm just gonna be very open andforthcoming with this idea that
you and I discussed theimportance.
Of your anonymity in this week'sepisode.
And so I will just be referringto you as Kathy.
So Kathy, thank you for comingon it's okay.
If we just jump in.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2 (00:40):
Let's do it.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04- (00:41):
Okay.
So Kathy, you shared with meearlier that you are a member of
4 different organizations.
So you're a member of Al-anon onAlcoholics Anonymous.
Debtor's Anonymous and Sex andLove Addicts Anonymous.
And I would love to hear youshare a little bit about your
journey and how you foundyourself involved with multiple
anonymous programs.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (01:01):
I'm happy to share with you what's
known as, our experience,strength and hope.
So for me, I was working inManhattan, probably the late,
early 80s.
I was working in Manhattan forSaks Fifth Avenue.
They had their downtown officesin the Meatpacking District,
which was really actually theMeatpacking District where there
(01:26):
were Companies that were,selling meat, you know, and now
it's
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27 (01:30):
Oh, wow.
kathy--she-her-_3_04- (01:30):
different scenario, but I was on 15th
street between 9th and 10thAvenue and I was in my early
twenties and I'm working with,my boss, her name is Paula, one
point Paula says to me, Kathy,you seem so sad and you're not
yourself lately.
Is everything okay?
And I remember thinking, wow,gee, she, she's perceptive, you
(01:55):
know?
And, I, I, I said, yeah, well,I'm not, I'm really not feeling
so great, these days.
And she said, well, why don'tyou come into my office and we
can talk a little bit.
more about what's going on inyour personal life.
So I went into her office andshe shut the door and she said,
what's going on?
And I said, well, you know, I'mat home.
I'm living at home with my momand my sister and my stepdad and
(02:16):
my mom's has really beenescalating.
And my sister, my older sisteralso has started to do, you
know, heavy drugs.
And it's really to watch theboth of them.
you know, do what they're doingto themselves.
And, um, you know, just a quick,I'm going to step back and this
may come again into theforefront, but just quickly, I'm
(02:39):
now about 22 years old.
I'm living in Northern NewJersey, working in Manhattan.
I grew up in Newark, New Jersey.
I spent the first 11 years of mylife in Newark, New Jersey.
my dad was a jazz musician.
My mom was, Both a homemaker andkind of a part time secretary
administrative assistant.
(03:01):
And both my parents, who wereincredibly, you know, creative
and passionate, and fun andloving, were also consumed with,
alcoholism and, And drugs.
And there was a lot of domesticviolence in my home that my
sister and I witnessed littlekids.
So, uh, my parents, you know,eventually separated, my sister,
(03:24):
my mother, and I moved toanother town.
My father moved to Miami,Florida.
during the time of theseparation, which was very
traumatic for my mom, eventhough the level of violence in
the home was, was severe, it wasvery severe, She was still
devastated by my father'schoosing to leave the marriage
and move south.
(03:45):
we moved together.
And during that time, herdrinking escalated and my
sister's also, drug useescalated.
So I'm sitting in my boss'soffice at Paula and I'm telling
her about my family's drinking.
And she said, have you everheard of Al Anon?
And I said, no, what's that?
(04:07):
She said, I think it's forpeople whose families drinking.
and I think it's like, it'sabout, you know, if your family
or a friend is drinking, you cango there for help.
She said, what, what do youthink?
Would you, would you?
Would you be willing to check itout?
I've heard about it and itsounds like it would be
(04:29):
something that you could checkout and you could benefit from.
And she had a yellow pages.
This is, you know, this is theeighties.
There's a yellow pages.
Nadine, you're so gorgeous andyoung.
I
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2 (04:39):
I
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-20 (04:39):
that you've ever seen a yellow page.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (04:42):
know the yellow pages.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27- (04:43):
great.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27- (04:44):
An anthology of numbers,
essentially.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-2 (04:47):
Exactly.
So she pulls out a yellow pagesand says, here's a number to
call.
you know, maybe, maybe there'ssomewhere they have meetings
and, you know, this is all newto me.
I had no idea, you know, 1983,22 years old, 1982, you know,
and I called and there was ameeting that was very close to
(05:08):
where I lived in New Jersey Iwent.
I went, I was feeling sohelpless, to watch my mother who
was, you know, angry.
She, you know, she was so lovingand kind when she was not
drinking.
And when she drank, she just wasvery angry and, wasn't pretty,
you know, Dr.
Jekyll and Mr.
Hyde.
And then of course, to see mybeautiful sister, you know,
(05:30):
stumbling into our home and,Being vulnerable.
She was in vulnerable position.
So I went into this meeting andI went in and, there was a group
of ladies sitting at the tableand there simultaneously was an
alcoholic synonymous meetinghappening.
And I remember just kind of likeseeing two different signs and
(05:51):
walking into the Al Anonmeeting.
I remember going into the roomand, the women said, welcome.
they said their names, I have avague recollection.
One in particular had thisreally blonde, blonde hair and a
lot of makeup on and just kindof a dramatic look.
and they said, welcome.
and they said, you know whatthis is?
(06:11):
And I said, not really.
I said, but I'm here because Ireally want you to tell me how I
can, make my mom stop drinking.
they said, this is not aboutthat.
This is about you and what youcan do for yourself, in regards
to living with someone who youdeeply care about, who's
drinking, and that started myjourney of 12 step programs, Al
(06:36):
Anon.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (06:38):
Wow.
Thank you so much for sharing.
I actually got chills, Cathy,when you were sharing parts of
your story, in particular about,the pain you felt seeing
firsthand how alcohol affectedyour home, specifically your
sister and your mom.
And I resonate with parts ofthat in the sense that, you feel
powerless over seeing Your lovedones deteriorate or act
(07:03):
differently on a substance likealcohol.
And when you said Dr.
Jacko, Mr.
Hyde, like that's, those arewords I've used to describe my
mother's relationship withalcohol when she was drinking,
thank God she doesn't drinkanymore, She was the kindest,
sweetest person.
Just to echo some of thesentiments that you shared when
she was sober, you could justsee the torment and the pain,
(07:24):
When she started to drink andshe would lash out and just
become a different person.
I didn't recognize.
And that's terrifying.
And so I can't wait to hear moreof your story because I know
that you're also a part ofAlcoholics Anonymous.
So I'm going to make anassumption here that you
Somewhat followed that pathwaywith your drinking or you're
(07:45):
using and I hope I'm not beingtoo presumptuous, but it's so
interesting because I feel likewhen you grow up in a household
where people abuse substances,it's almost like you have this
loathing this hatred because yousee firsthand what it does to
the other person.
But yet it's, there's stilllike, an alluring aspect, like,
how do we find ourselves insimilar predicaments?
(08:06):
So I can't wait to hear more ofyour story.
And thank you for sharing thoseparts so far.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2 (08:10):
Thank you.
and I'm so glad you canidentify, you know, I think
that's the, you know, the, thebeauty of recovery is that, we
had grown up and obviously youand I don't know each other
until this moment, but that youwould also have these
experiences and you know whatit's like to be in a home where
there's, active alcoholism andhow, just how it turns so
(08:31):
quickly, you know, and how scaryit is.
I so appreciate that.
what I slowly learned is thatalcoholism is a family disease
that each one of us hasalcoholism the sense of we may
not be drinking, so to speak,but we do have behaviors or
attitudes and we either areenabling the alcoholic or were
(08:56):
letting the alcoholic kind ofdeal with their own lives.
But it's our behavior to thewhole family system is
connected.
you know, whether the person isdrinking or not, I personally,
took my first drink when I was12 I drank and I remember I
liked it, very much.
I remember getting drunk and Iremember wanting to do it again.
(09:19):
I was the kind of drinker thatwas more of a periodic, like I
wasn't drinking every day.
I didn't want to drink everyday.
but I did want to drink and Idid look forward to it.
So throughout, high school andthen into college, there was, bi
weekly episodes of me drinkingand getting drunk, while in Al
Anon, I was introduced brieflyto ACA, Adult Children of
(09:42):
Alcoholics, someone recommendedthat I go to a meeting in
Manhattan, and that might be alittle bit more of a deeper
recovery for me, so I was open,I was very open, and I was very
willing, and I felt the benefitsof Al Anon, just the relief of
like, didn't cause this.
I can't control this.
I can't cure this.
(10:03):
I can learn how to cope withthis.
So I started going to ACA inManhattan down on, Cooper
square.
There was a Cooper squaremeeting and I'd go after work
and I have an aunt who lives inManhattan and I would stay with
her all the time.
at that ACA meeting, I met aman, his name was Alan.
And Alan and I just werefriends.
(10:23):
We, you know, we'd see eachother weekly.
We started to talk, we'd havecoffee and he was older than I
was.
He'd lived in Manhattan.
He was a playwright.
He was just a very kind person.
I started to open up about mydrinking.
And he said to me, you be, yoube open to going to an AA
(10:44):
meeting?
I said, me, you know, me, I, youknow, like he said, yeah, I'm,
you know, there's a meeting onPerry street.
it's a great meeting.
Let's go together.
and I said, okay, yeah, I'll go.
And I remember we got there andbefore going into Perry street,
which is a great meeting inManhattan, it's called the
(11:06):
emergency room of AA.
people who are going in invarious stages of their
recovery.
He said, please don't compareyourself with the speaker or
with anybody in the room.
Just identify with the feelingsof the speaker.
walked in, we sat down, thelights are dimmed.
It's a full room and I start tolisten I'm listening.
(11:30):
all of a sudden, a transvestitewalks in with a, a blonde matted
wig, wearing a pink tutu.
And this person goes over towhere the coffee and the cookies
are being served and startseating cookies and takes a
carton of milk and startsdrinking and the milk is
dripping down there, pink tutu,and I just focused on that
(11:52):
because I thought that wasamazing.
That's crazy.
That is so crazy.
And after the meeting, my friendAlan and I talked and I said,
I'm not that crazy.
He said, no, no, don't compareyourself people.
but the seed was planted.
The seed was
the-sober-butterfly_3_04 (12:06):
right?
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27 (12:07):
shortly after that, maybe two or three
years later, my drinkingcontinued.
And then I started, doing otherthings, which accelerated my
bottom, thank God.
and I went to AlcoholicsAnonymous, for my own
alcoholism.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (12:19):
Wow, that's powerful.
That's really powerful.
And that was really solid advicethat Alan gave you, which is
don't compare yourself, but it'sso easy to fall prey to.
I'm not this, like, I can'tresonate with this, but it's
more so connecting to thefeelings as mentioned.
So I'm glad that later on, asyou mentioned, you got to a
place where it seemed like maybeit was harder for you to deny.
(12:43):
You're drinking and how it wasimpacting your life.
Or as people like to say, thepowerlessness, the chaos of your
own, life.
So do you mind sharing with uswhat that looked like?
Was there a turning point foryou?
I don't necessarily like toreference rock bottoms, but what
got you to a place ofsurrendering fully?
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2 (13:04):
Thank you.
and I just want to say, Nadine,I think you hit the nail on the
head with, that humanconnection, you know, that we're
all, it doesn't matter, they sayin the program, it doesn't
matter if you come from Yale orjail, Park Avenue or Park Bench,
alcohol is the great equalizer,you know, I think I wasn't
ready.
You know, I know the seed wasplanted at that Perry Street
(13:24):
meeting.
And I know my friend just heard,the therapeutic value of one
alcoholic talking to another.
He could see it was, certainlyself diagnosed.
He didn't say, Kathy, you're analcoholic.
but he brought me to thatmeeting and That made an
impression on me.
So yeah, we're going to fastforward to 1986.
I'm 25 years old and I'm justmiserable.
(13:47):
I have a great job.
I'm working as a flightattendant with a major airline.
I'm traveling a great deal.
I have a boyfriend.
I'm living in Manhattan now withmy aunt.
on the outside, things seem tobe.
Great.
You know, I'm going to Londonand Italy and, you know, on my
(14:07):
excursions as a flightattendant.
This is a job I've alwayswanted.
boyfriend, do you know, I, andwe'll go into that a little bit
later on, but you know, he'sthere, you know, and of course
we're drinking.
He
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2 (14:21):
a part in the story I'm sure, but
yes, he's a boyfriend.
He's a man.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2 (14:25):
does, he does.
And I'm so grateful for him.
And, you know, we, we have a lotin common, mostly that we drink
and drug the same really, andthat kind of keeps us bonded.
So it's New Year's Eve 86, 87.
And, I'm just feeling like Ihate myself, my life.
it sucks.
(14:46):
I know that once I startdrinking alcohol, I can't stop.
And then once I start drinking,then I want to find these other
substances, which are veryexpensive.
And, you know, then I have tocall my dealer and I have to,
you know, it's like a wholething.
And new year's Eve, I'm with myboyfriend, Joey at the time.
And, drank everything.
We did all the drugs we could.
(15:07):
And I was, I couldn't, I didn'tfeel high.
And I heard very clearly avoice, whisper to me, Kathy.
You need help.
And it wasn't Joey, you know,and I heard that really loud and
clear.
And I remember being told as akid from my grandmother on my
(15:29):
dad's side, that I had aguardian angel.
there was always going to be aguardian angel watching out for
me.
And I felt like that was a voicefrom an entirely different
place.
And, I went home.
I was in New Jersey where Joeylived.
I went home and I calledAlcoholics Anonymous.
And this was in January of 1987.
And I said, you know, I, I, Ineed help.
(15:49):
I need to, I need to get to anAA meeting.
And, know, there was, this isbefore the internet and before,
you know, just, you know, then.
And they said, well, there's ameeting tonight right where you
live.
It's just a few blocks fromwhere you live.
it said, you know, whatever timeit was, it was in the early
evening seven or 7 30.
And they said, Can you make itthere tonight?
And I said, Well, I I think so.
(16:11):
You know, I think so.
And, they said, well, you canalways come here and get a
meeting list.
So this was where, the Flatironbuilding, Flatiron building is
on, in, on 23rd street.
And I remember I walked to theFlatiron building and it's cold
out and I'm walking in thebuilding and looking for AA,
it's called AA intergroup.
And I'm looking around and thislittle old lady comes up to me
and she says, looking for thatroom right over there.
(16:35):
said, we alcoholics know eachother now, don't we?
And, that was
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (16:39):
Wow.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024 (16:39):
So I, yeah, I got to, I feel like
that was my grandmother too, youknow, guardian angels.
I got to a meeting that nightand on my way there, I have to
see Nadine now.
I'm, I'm like three weeks shy ofmy 26th birthday.
And I'm thinking I'm on my wayto Alcoholics Anonymous.
My life is over.
I'm with bums.
I'm there.
(17:00):
They're a bunch of bums, youknow, and I walk into this
meeting, it was packed, it wasan anniversary meeting.
People were dressed better thanI was.
They spoke better than I did.
I mean, they were gorgeous.
I'm like, this is AA, you know,
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (17:15):
they have what I want.
Yep.
That's so powerful.
Now, during this time, were youstill going to Al and all
meetings or had you kind of leftthat to the side?
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024 (17:27):
it was Al Anon and ACA.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27 (17:28):
Oh, right.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (17:29):
And then also ACA had brought me, it
was strongly recommended that Igo into therapy.
And my aunt, who had a lot ofexperience with therapy and
therapists, recommended atherapist.
And so a lot, of what I wasdoing was going into therapy and
ACA meetings.
And the therapist who I startedto get honest with about my
(17:50):
drinking and my drug use said tome, I told him about an episode
and also around that time aroundNovember, you know, they say
it's a threefold disease,Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New
Year's, it's like those three, Itold him about an episode of my
drinking and drug use.
And he very clearly said to me,You're wasting my time you're
(18:14):
wasting your money if youcontinue to drink and drug
because we're not going to makeany progress
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (18:20):
Wow.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024 (18:21):
if you're drinking and drugging
like this and it like when hesaid that to me No one had ever
said it to me.
So Bluntly, I felt like a coldglass of water was poured in my
face Cause he was giving me anultimatum.
He was being so honest.
And I thought, wow.
So that also was part of the,you know, really waking up, to
(18:43):
then go into AlcoholicsAnonymous.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (18:46):
Wow.
That's so powerful.
I also had, An amazing therapistwho helped me get to a place to
accept help and she had more ofa low touch approach and I think
I needed that because similar towhen your friend Alan he didn't
directly say to you, I thinkyou're an alcoholic.
Like maybe that would havescared you at that moment.
I think over the course ofseveral months of working with
(19:07):
her, she just kept asking me.
Okay, after episode, afterepisode, every week, you know,
I'm telling her stories, commondenominator is always drugging
and alcohol and she kept saying,well, how would you define your
relationship with alcohol orwith substances until, you know,
eventually I could no longerdeny that it was extremely
problematic and so that that'swhat helped me get into the
(19:28):
rooms, but like, I think, youknow, it's just sometimes we
need the direct approach.
The mirror, it's almost like amirror being held up to you.
It's like, I can no longer denythat I need help.
so that's really, reallypowerful.
And I'm glad that your therapistencouraged you to stop wasting
your time and their time.
so what did life look like foryou once you started actually
(19:52):
accepting the support that youneeded?
did it change?
Immediately, did you start tonotice small changes?
Was it like a full, like, fulltransformation?
Like, how would you define that1st year?
I think so many people focus on,like, year 1.
So do you remember or recallwhat your experiences were like
then?
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_ (20:12):
I do.
I appreciate you kind ofbringing me back.
To that moment, because when Iwalked into the meeting that I
did, which became my home group,which is called the Gramercy
group, which is still around,you know, when I first walked in
and at that meeting, they ask ifanyone is here for the very
first time.
And I remember raising my handand just saying, I'm Kathy and I
(20:33):
think I'm an alcoholic.
And after that meeting, allthese women.
Came up to me and surrounded meand gave me phone numbers and
said, call me.
I'm going to a meeting tomorrownight.
Call me.
I'm speaking at a meet.
I know.
I didn't know what they weretalking about.
Really.
I'd had no idea.
I just knew that I felt, I justcouldn't go on the way that I
(20:54):
was.
I just couldn't go on becausethere was no, no relief in
alcohol, no relief in drugs, norelief in my boyfriend, no
relief in travel, everythingthat I look to, to kind of take
me, like to get high with wasnot working.
and so I called a woman the nextday and she said, Oh, I'm
speaking at a meeting.
Why don't you join me?
and I went and then I slowlylearned, you know, you don't
(21:17):
drink.
A day at a time, no matter whathappens, no matter how you're
feeling.
If you get the job, boyfriend,whatever of your dreams, or if
you lose everything, you don'tdrink no matter what.
that you change people, places,and things.
And that meant, my boyfriend,that meant my family.
I had to, not that I couldchange them, but I couldn't see
(21:38):
them for a long time.
I couldn't see my mom and Icouldn't see my sister, for at
least the first 90 days of mine.
sobriety.
it was too much of a trigger.
It was, it was, you know, the,the rooms of a were pulling me
into sobriety and they, they,they were pulling me and I could
feel my disease pulling me inthe opposite direction.
(22:00):
I knew that I was powerless overalcohol.
I knew that once I drank.
I couldn't stop.
I didn't think my life wasunmanageable.
I still worked.
I was in such denial.
I really didn't know how sick Iwas.
I thought this was normal.
I knew that the way I drank, Icouldn't do it, but I didn't
think my life was unmanageable.
(22:21):
So it took a long time.
That first year my sponsor wouldsay to me, I said, I don't know
if I'm really an alcoholic.
And she would say, listen, justtoday, don't drink, go to a
meeting.
Let's start some step work.
make sure you call me and youbrush your teeth and you eat a
cheeseburger.
And, I remember crying andcrying and crying that first
year.
I missed alcohol.
(22:42):
I didn't realize the, The deeprelationship we had, I didn't
realize how I relied on alcoholbecause I was not a daily
drinker.
I looked like I had my stufftogether.
you would see me from theoutside looking in and I
presented well, and I had asmile on my face.
Certainly as a flight attendant,that's kind of part of our
(23:02):
training.
I joined a major airline andthey say, the first thing they
tell you is you've given up yourright to a bad mood.
But it helped with my,
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (23:11):
Wow.
kathy--she-her-_3_04 (23:12):
mechanism.
Like you weren't going to getin.
I was going to be as kind as youknow, kind as I possibly could.
So that first year was strictlyon the first step not drinking
changing people places andthings crying.
I've got angry 90 days.
I took a yellow pages and Iripped it to shreds I took, you
(23:35):
know, I had pencils in my roomand I broke.
I was so angry.
so angry.
and my sponsor and the women inthe room and the men too, you
know, the men too were sohelpful.
just said to me, listen, justkeep coming and don't drink and
it's, it's all going to be allright.
And it was on, on a year,probably it was on my year
anniversary.
(23:55):
Uh, I was at a meeting called,living sober.
I really accepted that I was analcoholic.
I truly accepted, and I justtotally surrendered.
And, I felt so much better, butit was, it was a fight.
I was fighting it.
but I'm grateful that I didn'tdrink and I just trusted the
people and I trusted the programto, to get me to where I needed
(24:15):
to go.
I really didn't know, but I, Itrusted on some level.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2 (24:20):
I also remember feeling extremely
angry and the people I wasleaning on for support were
telling me I was an alcoholicand I was very much in denial
because I was like, how dareyou?
Like, you don't even know me.
Like it's this resistance,right?
It's like, I don't want toreceive this label because of
all of the stigma
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-20 (24:39):
Yes.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27 (24:39):
and the comparison.
Once again, like my drinking, itwasn't quite like you.
I thought I was a socialdrinker.
Like I mainly drink.
When I was out and about, but Icould never manage my drinking.
I could never stop.
I could never have one.
and then of course theprogressive nature of
alcoholism, I would drink moreand more for me, timeline wise
pandemic.
completely exasperated, like somany others, my drinking.
(25:01):
So now I was drinking at home.
But I was still completely indenial.
So I think I, and many peoplecan relate to this idea of like,
I don't want this label of analcoholic because A, I don't
really understand what thatfully entails.
And B, I don't like this idea ofa label defining me.
So I feel like that's almost agood transition how did you
(25:22):
confront or deal with any stigmaor any, you know, stereotypes
the term alcoholic, did thatchange your perception of self?
Did that change yourrelationship with others?
did you deal with any judgmentor shame from accepting that you
were an alcoholic?
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27- (25:41):
that's a great question.
in the mid eighties, so manypeople started to come into the
program and get sober and, Iwould see, people that I'd seen
on TV or at a movie, at ameeting.
people will be like, Oh, it'scool to get sober.
It's cool to be sober.
And I'm like, I know.
Well, you know, it was reallyout of desperation.
but I felt like, you know, fromthe thirties to the eighties,
(26:02):
because I think early on, it wassuch a stigma.
you know, early on, cause myperception too, like I thought
when I first, as I said, youknow, I thought these were
Bowery bums.
So my perception changed.
Like I'm sitting next to,college professors and CEOs.
And, you know, I'm sitting nextto, educated people.
(26:24):
this is not what AlcoholicsAnonymous is.
So it really helped to open mymind, and also there were young
people.
There were people my age, 25,26, 27 year olds who had been
sober for like a year or twoyears.
they seemed so happy.
there was a joy.
they were doing fun things.
They were, going out, they wereskiing and traveling and going
(26:47):
to the movies and, havingparties sober.
So I thought, wow, the wholeworld opened up, from being in
Alcoholics Anonymous.
I think for me, I realized that.
You know, because I didn'tunderstand it.
A lot of people just don'tunderstand.
They don't understand thatalcoholism has no boundaries.
(27:11):
It's not confined to people whoare, you know, on the street or
have no teeth or have no family.
It touches everyone.
and there were times though, youknow, and this is my own.
I have a, you know, a story.
I reached out to an oldboyfriend, I always wanted a
boyfriend.
I had to have a boyfriend, hadto have a boyfriend, boyfriend,
boyfriend, boyfriend.
Um, So I remember them saying norelationships for the first year
(27:33):
and I thought you guys arecrazy.
I mean, I'm not going to drinkand I'm not going to drug and
I'm not going to have aboyfriend.
Are you crazy?
the-sober-butterfly_3_04- (27:41):
Wait, so did you break up with Joey?
What happened with Joey?
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_ (27:43):
I did.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04- (27:44):
Okay.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (27:45):
who I drunk, you know, I drank with,
who were calling me and I had mydrug dealer who was calling me
and I said, you know, I, I can'tsee you right now.
I just can't see you right now.
Maybe it'll at a later date, butright now I can't, I remember my
drug dealer.
know, coming over and said,don't worry, I'm not going to,
I'm not going to do anything.
I'm not going to like shoveanything up your nose or I'm not
(28:06):
going to force you.
I just want to see you.
I just want to spend time withyou.
And he came into Manhattan and Igot into his car and he had a
joint in his ashtray.
And I said, I can't do this.
I'm sorry.
I can't do this.
So yeah,
the-sober-butterfly_3_04- (28:21):
Yeah.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (28:21):
And sadly, Joey died.
Joey died of alcoholism, sadly.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27 (28:25):
Oh,
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-20 (28:26):
five
the-sober-butterfly_3_04 (28:26):
That's really sad.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (28:27):
And a lot of people, know, it kills,
it does kill.
the disease does kill.
So I've had a lot of people inmy life, my family members as
well.
My sister included who died ofalcoholism.
So yeah, Joey and I broke up.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04 (28:41):
sorry, Kathy.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2 (28:42):
Thank you, Nadine.
Thank you.
Appreciate that.
I did reach out to a boyfriendearly on.
I was on the first step and Isaid to my sponsor, I want to
make amends, I want to do theninth step.
of course my motive was notpure.
I didn't want to really make
the-sober-butterfly_3_04 (28:55):
Right,
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27- (28:56):
wanted a boyfriend.
And she said to me, I'm gonna,I'm going to strongly suggest.
you don't do that.
Not yet.
said, and you're an alcoholic,you're going to do whatever you
want to do.
You know, I can't tell you whatto do.
I'm going to strongly suggest.
So I wrote him this reallyletter about how I was so sorry
(29:16):
and I really would like to getback to him and I'm out.
And he called me up and he saidto me, you know, when I think
about it now, he said, I'm sosorry.
You're an alcoholic synonym.
I'm so sorry.
I really hope you, you, youknow, like I was a leper, you
know, Yeah,
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2 (29:37):
I cannot believe it.
It's for you.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (29:39):
and I learned my lesson to always
check my motives and to do thesteps in order that they are
created so yeah, so myperception changed people around
me You know, I was also 26 now,27.
And people would say to me,you're so young.
They would say, You're not analcoholic.
And my sponsor said to me, it'snot for them to determine that
Kathy.
(30:00):
It's a self diagnosed disease.
You'll know if you're analcoholic or not.
So that was very helpful.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04- (30:07):
Yeah.
That's very profound.
And I think the self-diagnosispiece is you have to trust
yourself to know, right?
Like you, and I think the beautyof removing the alcohol is that
you gain, or the substance isthat you gain more clarity, like
you're more intuitive and youcan connect with your inner
self.
a lot more clearly.
And yeah, that's the mostdifficult part because it's
(30:28):
sometimes like you're going backto that resistance, right?
You're fighting yourself andthere's outside influences.
You have people in this camp onone side telling you, Kathy,
Nadine, you're not an alcoholic.
What are you talking about?
Maybe they have an issue withalcohol.
And then, of course, you havepeople in the programs, in the
rooms, telling you, like, I, Isee myself in you.
Like, you're an alcoholic.
(30:49):
So it can be very conflicting,but ultimately, your sponsor was
100 percent correct.
Like, you know if you're analcoholic or not.
there is an inner voice.
I think I always knew.
But I just ignored it or triedto subdue it.
but definitely can identify withthat as well.
So I'm curious about the othermembership.
So we have so far we've coveredAl Anon, we've covered,
(31:11):
Alcoholics Anonymous, but youalso mentioned that you were a
part of other organizations aswell.
Do you mind sharing a little bitabout that story or that journey
that led you to seek membershipwith those groups?
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2 (31:22):
Yeah, no, I'd be happy to.
I was probably about five yearssober and I went to get my hair
cut in Manhattan and the womancutting my hair was a friend of
mine from AA and she's cuttingmy hair.
Her name is Sharon.
I'm telling her that, you know,I never seem to have any money.
(31:43):
working full time.
have a great job.
I never seem to know where mymoney goes.
I can't seem to pay my bills ontime.
I'm really confused aroundmoney.
And she said to me.
have a program for you.
It's called debtors anonymous.
And I said, what's that?
(32:04):
She said, well, it's for peoplewho are very vague about their
money and who seemed toconstantly be.
incurring debt or living creditcard to credit card or don't
know where their money goes.
she was dating, at the time,this is like a non conference
approved book.
His name is Jerry Mundus.
(32:24):
He's since passed away.
He wrote a book.
How to get out of debt, stay outof debt and live prosperously.
And, Jerry was in debtorsanonymous and she said, there's
a meeting tonight in Manhattan,of course.
And, why don't you go?
And I went, I went and I, Iremember sitting there going
again, my perception like, oh myGod, debtors anonymous.
(32:48):
sounds bad.
Now, what am I doing?
and again, a group of beautiful,well dressed, articulate,
educated men and women who aretalking about how they've gotten
clear with their money becausethey realized that they had this
compulsion to do it.
(33:09):
To debt.
and I'm just going to say, sothis is 1990.
It's now 2024.
I, Nadine have been in and outof debtors anonymous for these
many years.
And the last four yearscommitted to debtors anonymous
recommitted.
And now I'm solvent.
when I say that I'm solvent,that means that I have not
(33:31):
incurred.
any unsecured debt since, June28th, 2021.
and in Debtors Anonymous.
Thank you.
What a blessing.
Debtors Anonymous is just anamazing, amazing program.
It has brought me to a level ofclarity and, freedom that I
(33:52):
hadn't really experienced in AA.
I needed to go deeper.
I needed to stop anothercompulsive, Behavior in which I
was punishing myself with thelack of clarity around money.
and I can certainly go into moreof the details, but that's how I
was introduced to debtorsanonymous.
And I'm so grateful that it'sand I'm happy to talk more about
(34:13):
it or talk to anybody, ifanybody's interested, if they
hear this and want to hear moreabout it, and certainly if you
have any questions about it,Nadine.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04- (34:21):
Yeah, thank you so much, Kathy.
I feel like here's the thing.
When we get sober, I think oneof the, I guess I'll call it a
misconception because I thinkit's misunderstood.
You just think that all parts ofyour life will fall into place.
And I experienced, I believe alittle bit of an addiction
transferral and you mentionedbefore this idea of compulsion
(34:45):
where it's like, if you're notnecessarily getting to the root
causes of what's driving somebehaviors and connected to the
alcoholic brain, I'll call itself sabotage.
Like, I think a big part of itfor myself in terms of
overspending, I actually did anepisode in my podcast about
overspending and sobriety onself care in the name of, I'm
going to air quote self care,right?
(35:06):
This umbrella term thatencompasses so many different
things that I think so manysober people fall prey to
because we think that like, Oh,if I'm not spending my money.
on toxic substances, it's okay,but also, where is my money?
So I think a big part of it,I'll just sum it up to say for
myself at least, is feeling lessthan.
(35:26):
Like, feeling a hole, anemptiness, and needing to fill
that hole.
I think I used to fill that holewith alcohol and with drugs, and
I experienced, especially inearly sobriety, and I'm still
not like fully there yet, I'mstill working on this.
but yeah, this need to like,need to, to buy, almost to like
supplement.
A feeling and I can'tnecessarily articulate what that
(35:48):
feeling is other than I thinkit's an inferiority feeling like
I'm not enough.
So very much interested to learnmore of a tenants of, it's it's
called debtors.
Anonymous
kathy--she-her-_3_04-2 (35:59):
Debtor's Anonymous.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27 (36:00):
are the tenants similar to
alcoholics?
Anonymous?
Are you doing step work?
I'm just very curious because Ifeel like so many people would
benefit from learning more aboutthis program.
kathy--she-her-_3_0 (36:11):
Absolutely, it's the 12 step model of
Alcoholics Anonymous and youknow, it's, changed and
customized to, you know, we'repowerless over a compulsive
debt.
And our lives have becomeunmanageable and absolutely
there's literature.
There's a 12, 12 in debtorsanonymous.
There are the signs ofcompulsive debting, kind of the
(36:32):
signposts, you know, like, vagueabout, terms and conditions,
shopping, always shopping for agood deal.
always having a crisis aroundmoney.
definitely that not feelingenough.
And in those 12 signs ofcompulsive debting, I saw
myself.
The vagueness the inability toto kind of have a conversation
(36:55):
around money, like a normalconversation, like shame would
come up, confusion would comeup.
and I just knew that there wassomething that I had to address.
So in debtors anonymous, there'salso the 12 tools.
The tools and, the first tool ismeetings, sponsorship.
And then what we do is we keepour numbers.
(37:17):
So each day we're recording whatmoney comes in, if any, and what
money's going out.
And we can record those numbersanyway.
We choose whatever works for us.
as long as I do it, I'll say formyself.
So I have an app on my phone andI'll record, you know, today I
went grocery shopping before I.
Got on the call with you.
(37:38):
I got gas.
and I paid some tolls on theGarden State Parkway.
And I recorded them in my app.
So I'm clear, the numbers.
And then, one of the other toolsis, having a pressure relief
group.
a pressure relief group, happensafter one has become familiar
with the program.
(37:58):
And they've had their numbersfor, say, 30, 60, or 90 days.
And they have some pressures.
And the pressures could be,dramatic, certainly it could be
you're being evicted, you'vejust been fired, you have a
medical concern, or it can bejust like, I don't know really
how to spend my money.
I don't know what I'm doing, youknow, and so two people will
(38:20):
come together.
that have solvency, at least 90days of solvency.
And they'll sit with you, sitwith me, and I tell them my
numbers, my income, my outgo,and then they help me to
formulate a spending plan and anaction plan.
when I sat down and I've gonethrough the steps of Debtors
Anonymous and I have sponseesnow, in DA, who I'm so grateful
(38:43):
for.
you know, we just, just kind ofget clear, just get clear.
And the main thing is not todebt.
That means not to incur anyunsecured debt, which means I
don't use a credit card.
I don't use a credit card.
I either pay in cash I set asidethe funds and I'll use a debit
card, I'm not living above mymeans.
(39:06):
I'm not living in denial.
And it's definitely, I think youhit the core.
I think you're very astute.
me just say how astute I thinkyou are, Nadine, and just the
questions that you're asking andthe way that you're asking.
I so appreciate your, um, yourfocus.
So it definitely is this thingof like, I'm not enough.
I don't have enough.
I'm not enough.
never be enough.
(39:27):
so it's, it's a fabulous,fabulous program and I wish more
people knew about it for sure.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04 (39:33):
That's beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that.
I think more people now arelearning about it and yeah, I
think you're helping so manypeople and I think even
reflecting on my own story andmy own situation.
It's yeah, not feeling enough.
the irony of that is I think wehave the dopamine rush.
(39:54):
When we buy things, whether weneed them or not, or we convince
ourselves that we need them andthe rush comes.
It's the high that I think I'malways chasing in one form or
another.
And then it goes away.
And then I feel like I need mynext high.
Constant ebb and flow between,you know, it's never enough.
And then I also, in the samebreath, I'll share this, Kathy.
(40:16):
I get overwhelmed when I havetoo much stuff, when it's too
much clutter.
and of course you can spend yourmoney in various things.
Like I've definitely overspentwith travel.
I tell myself, Oh, like theseare, you know, unforgettable
moments.
You can't buy that, but it comesat a cost, right?
So it's just like all of thesethings, I'm whether it's
tangible or not living.
I think you hit it.
(40:37):
Hit it on the head, like livingabove your means is living.
Also, I think in denial becauseyou're not being transparent and
you're not being accountable orheld accountable.
And it's so easy to continueliving in denial because you
don't want to look at thenumbers and you don't want to
see how, how much you dug a holeuntil maybe you're faced with,
(40:59):
you know, Something that youcan't, you can no longer deny.
And it's beautiful to like, tryand get there before you're
forced to get there.
So I think that's so amazingthat you haven't incurred any
new debt since 2021 and you'renot using credit cards I think
so many people can benefit fromthat because when you have true
stability and security with yourfinances.
(41:22):
It lends itself to other areasof your life feeling more secure
and feeling more.
just in control, I think as wellas just to know where you are in
life.
So that's so powerful.
So thank you for sharing that.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-20 (41:34):
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the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2 (43:19):
I love this next one because I
haven't heard of it and I thinkI need to maybe Learn more about
it, which is this idea of sexand love addicts anonymous.
I've never heard of sex and loveaddicts anonymous.
Can you share a little bit moreabout what led you to sex and
love, anonymous and what thatlooks like?
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024 (43:38):
my very first introduction to sex
and love at X anonymous.
was at a meeting in Manhattanand I was probably maybe eight
or nine years sober.
I shared something in themeeting.
I don't recall what I sharedexactly.
After the meeting, a man cameover to me and said, have you
(43:58):
ever heard of sex and loveethics anonymous?
And I said, no.
said, I think you could benefitfrom that.
And I'm thinking, who is thisguy and what is he talking, you
know, like what, me, what?
And he said, are you going to beat this meeting next week?
Cause I would give you their bigbook.
(44:19):
So I said, yeah.
So lo and behold, the next weekhe brought in the sex and love
addicts anonymous big book.
I started reading it and Istarted to identify with this
kind of serial monogamy.
Always needing a boyfriend,never feeling enough.
obsessing about men, pining overthis one and wanting that one.
(44:40):
a lot of fantasy living a lot infantasy.
and this is, you know, at 10years sober, I don't think I
ever went to a meeting cause thestigma with that, I thought I am
not walking into a sex and loveaddicts, anonymous me.
I'm just not going to do that.
I just can't do that.
You know, that seemed likeBeyond, you know, beyond the
beyonds.
(45:01):
And I just thought this was myconditioning.
Like you had to be married inorder to be happy, or you had to
be in a relationship in order tobe happy.
you have to have children, this,that, and the other thing.
So I was very confused.
Let me just say, I was veryconfused and certainly growing
up in an atmosphere where themarriage that I witnessed, even
though I'm sure my parents notset out to traumatize their
(45:23):
kids.
sure that was not in their mindsat all.
domestic violence, watchingparents, my parents, you know,
hurt each other physically andemotionally, really was, was
hard, was very difficult.
And I think it imprinted on methis thing of, It's not safe.
(45:44):
It's not safe, you know, and soI would date people and then
we'd start to get very close andI'd break up, you know, we get
to a certain place and then I'dbreak up with them.
When I was a flight attendant,so I was always traveling and I
always had a reason why Icouldn't stick around and, and
lo and behold, you know, Icontinued to stay sober.
I continued to, be in therapy.
(46:05):
I had women in my life who saidto me, I think you're going to
want to have kids one day.
And I think you are going towant to get married.
And I was.
Probably 38 or 39.
I started to have this call tomotherhood, call to marriage.
And I did a lot of work.
I've done an enormous amount ofwork throughout the years,
Nadine.
I've taken workshops and therapyand saw psychics and healers and
(46:27):
shamans.
And, prayers and I had a lot ofemotional work to do with the
amount of trauma.
It's called developmentaltrauma.
What I, what I grew up with,from one to 10, and I had a lot
of emotional work to do causethere was, a lot of wounding
that happened as a kid.
And, so, You know, I, I did getmarried.
(46:49):
I do have a 19 year old son.
I was so, so grateful.
So grateful.
it's a, it's a blessing to be amother and it's, it's hard work.
and, and I, and I did divorce.
I was with my, my ex husbandJorge for about 14 years,
married for 11.
And it was around this time.
So we're, we divorced and my sonand I moved.
(47:11):
We were living in Puerto Ricoand, connected with an old
boyfriend who was, notavailable, which was my, this is
my kind of my pattern.
Like the men are very attractiveand they're married usually.
and I started this torrid loveaffair.
I was just recently divorced.
He was still married.
(47:32):
I realized that this guy was mydrug.
Every time I was with him, Ifelt high.
I could just feel it.
I could just feel my wholeenergy.
He was married, you know, and hehas a son who has Down syndrome
and, you know, his family neededhim.
And I just knew I needed help.
And I remembered Love AddictsAnonymous, and I reached out, I
(47:54):
think they're talking about S La, a, the acronym.
And I went to a meeting and thatwas in August of 2014.
I stopped seeing this man Ibegan the journey of, really
looking at.
Myself in a very different wayand looking at the men that I
chose and really dealing withsome very, deep issues
(48:17):
childhood.
yeah, it's intent.
I would just
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (48:22):
Wow.
Thank you for sharing that.
the developmental work thatyou've done in therapy.
I want to look into that myselfbecause those prime, those Early
years really shape how you see.
Relationships, how you seeyourself, what you think that
you deserve.
I'm assuming in love and sexaddicts anonymous.
(48:45):
You're doing step work as well,like you're working through that
and I'm assuming a big part ofit is doing work on yourself and
validating that you are enoughand worthy of love.
And if it's not romantic love,I'm assuming it's self love.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-2 (48:59):
exactly.
Exactly.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
it is.
any withdrawal, my experience,certainly my first year of being
sober and AA, I cried a lot.
And I think also when I wentwith debtors anonymous, there's
this transition of this behaviorand how I acted.
And then.
(49:19):
I'm not doing those same things.
So there's this kind of thesethings, the feelings that I was
suppressing with the addiction,right?
Which is really, it's all just asymptom of a much deeper issue.
Yet I needed the structure ofAA, of Al Anon, of ACA, of DA.
I needed to stop the addiction.
(49:39):
And with sex and love addicts, Iwas detoxing from this person, I
thought this has got to be worsethan detoxing from heroin.
I was in my room in a fetalposition crying and crying and
crying, but I think it was thecrying that I never did as a
kid.
It was the crying that I never,the grief, the fear that I was
(50:01):
never willing to go to.
Do you know what I mean?
Like putting down thatrelationship and that man Just
forced me because, you know,they say no contact, no contact.
It's like, don't drink, pick upthe
the-sober-butterfly_3_04- (50:16):
Yeah.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-20 (50:17):
him, do not call him.
And each day I didn't call himthe grief the sadness just
slowly came to the surfaceuntil, you know, I, I don't know
how long I cried, but I, it wasall repressed.
It was all repressed.
inside of me.
I'm so grateful.
I'm grateful to him.
he's with his wife.
(50:37):
I don't see him.
He had reached out to me and Ido not have contact with him.
I just can't.
This is a drug for me and Ican't be around him.
There's no good reason for me tobe with him.
I feel like each of theseprograms brought me to a place
where I could love myself enoughTo allow myself to feel the
grief and to feel the sadnessand to feel the anger and get it
(50:59):
out of my system to stoppunishing myself.
It wasn't my fault whathappened, what happened to me.
And it's not my parents faulteither.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27 (51:10):
Bye
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-20 (51:10):
they had their own trauma when my
parents would tell me abouttheir childhood.
I mean, All of us have ourtrauma.
It's nobody's fault.
but it couldn't have gotten tothat deeper place without the
structures of the programs thatI'm in,
the-sober-butterfly_3_04 (51:27):
That's very powerfully and beautifully
said.
Thank you so much.
I want to wind down and just askif you have any advice that you
could offer to someone who mightbe hesitant or maybe uncertain
about seeking help from any ofthese programs mentioned.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_ (51:45):
I would say if there's something
inside of you that there's thiskind of like, Oh, I've thought
of going to AA.
I've thought of, you know, I,I'm having stuff with my money
or I'm having stuff with myboyfriend or my girlfriend, or,
you know, I would ask that youfollow that and be willing to
explore it a little bit deeperand be willing to go to a
(52:07):
meeting, or a couple of meetingsto see if indeed whatever that
thing inside of you, which is, Ithink for me personally, that
part of you that wants to live,that part of you that loves
yourself, that part of you thatis calling for a life
unencumbered by fear or worryor, you know, addiction to
(52:29):
follow that part and just bewilling to explore without any
kind of like agenda or just, youknow, I'm just going to check it
out.
No pressure, no pressure.
If it doesn't resonate with you,That's okay.
But just follow that.
I think inside of us, we havethat part of us that loves us so
much and wants to live thatwhatever that is.
(52:53):
It's the inner child or thatlife force.
I feel like I have that.
And I think you have that sostrongly too.
And thank you so much for thework that you're doing in the
world.
You know, the work and yourbeautiful light that you bring
to the world, you know, in theway that you bring it.
it's the call for love, forreally a deep, deep love, of
(53:15):
ourselves and, of our, of ourjourneys.
And call me, if anybody wants tocall me, they can call me.
Yes.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2 (53:22):
I love that so much, Kathy.
And I just want to like throwthat right back at you.
Like you have such a lightness,your honesty, like the fact that
you can be so forthcoming, Ithink, with the anonymity
programs.
Obviously, people share in therooms, and I just so appreciate
you for sharing on a widerplatform so that other people
(53:45):
can connect to parts of yourstory or just the emotions that
I feel like I have so manyemotions have come up for me and
hearing you share, which is howI know.
I'm in the right place at theright time, receiving the right
message from you.
And so I just want to thank youso much for coming on and
sharing that with us.
And I think going back to whatyou shared about that, like,
inner, it sounds like innervoice or inner child or just
(54:08):
something within us that existthat life force.
As you mentioned, it reminds meof.
The saying, like, first God, oryou could substitute God with
whatever, right?
First, at first, God whispers,and then he screams.
And I think, for me, that's sopowerful because I just feel
like there's all these littlepebble, like, little, like,
(54:29):
drops.
It's like, okay, like, you heardthat voice very loudly.
Back in the eighties when, youknow, it was New Year's Eve and
you just heard this rumbling,like voice, it's just like, you
need help.
And it wasn't your ex boyfriend.
I think that's the case.
Like, we just know these thingsbefore we know them, if that
makes sense.
Like we know, There's somethingwrong.
(54:51):
Maybe we don't know exactly whatis wrong, but we know something
is wrong.
And if you are open enough withyourself or you have an open
mind to where you can just goright with zero expectation, as
you mentioned, but treat it likea social experiment, just go for
the sake of knowing or learningor listening.
I think you can save lives soyou can save your own life.
(55:12):
That's what you did.
And that's what I, I did andwhat I'm constantly doing.
I think it's the work that wehave to do on a daily basis.
And whether you're in AlcoholicsAnonymous where you're not
drinking or, you know, you'renot reaching out or contacting
someone that is like a drug foryou.
it's just the idea of every dayyou take the necessary steps to
(55:34):
work for yourself and just focuson the here and now and things
will come together as theyunfold.
kathy--she-her-_3_04 (55:40):
beautiful.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2 (55:41):
a gradual process.
kathy--she-her-_3_0 (55:42):
Absolutely.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04- (55:43):
thank you so much for sharing all of.
All of your wisdom, all of yourgems.
I'm just so grateful.
I want to open the platform aswe wind down.
Is there anything, I know thatyou've shared tons of resources.
if people did want to get incontact with you, is there a
good way to do so?
Absolutely.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (55:59):
You know, they could reach out to
you and then you would then letme know?
Because
the-sober-butterfly (56:04):
Absolutely.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (56:06):
And I'm, I, I promise, I promise
anyone who reaches out to youand you then let me know.
I will call them.
I will, email them, text them,but I will reach back.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2 (56:17):
I appreciate that.
And I just so appreciate youcoming on and sharing.
Thank you so much, Kathy.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-20 (56:22):
very welcome, Nadine.
What a pleasure.
I'm excited for what you'redoing and that we're alive.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27- (56:28):
Me too.
Thank you for coming.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27 (56:30):
Nadine.
the-sober-butterfly_32_06 (56:32):
Thank you for tuning into this week's
episode of the Sober ButterflyPodcast, where we featured
Kathy's story in her journeythrough Alcoholics Anonymous
Al-Anon adult Children ofAlcoholics, debtors Anonymous
and Sex and Love, addictsAnonymous.
If you or someone you know isstruggling with substance use or
addiction, know that you are notalone, and that help is
(56:52):
available, provided in the shownotes or some resources for
support.
Kathy is so sincere.
And she wrote me after thisweek's episode to say.
If anyone needs support, pleasereach out.
You can email hello at the soberbutterfly.
com and I can put you in directcontact with Kathy.
Your feedback is incrediblyimportant to us.
(57:14):
If you enjoyed this episode,please consider leaving a five
star rating to help support theshow.
Your ratings and reviews helpothers find our podcast and join
the community.
Thank you for listening anduntil next time, take care and
stay strong.
The following episode contains
sensitive subject matter relatedto substance use and addiction.
Viewer discretion is advised.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04 (00:10):
Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the
Sober Butterfly podcast.
I am Nadine Mulvina, and today Iam here with a very special
guest.
Welcome Kathy to the show.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (00:20):
Hi, Nadine.
Thanks so much.
I'm so happy to be here.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27 (00:23):
I'm so happy and honored to have you
here and I hope it's okay.
I'm just gonna be very open andforthcoming with this idea that
you and I discussed theimportance.
Of your anonymity in this week'sepisode.
And so I will just be referringto you as Kathy.
So Kathy, thank you for comingon it's okay.
If we just jump in.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2 (00:40):
Let's do it.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04- (00:41):
Okay.
So Kathy, you shared with meearlier that you are a member of
4 different organizations.
So you're a member of Al-anon onAlcoholics Anonymous.
Debtor's Anonymous and Sex andLove Addicts Anonymous.
And I would love to hear youshare a little bit about your
journey and how you foundyourself involved with multiple
anonymous programs.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (01:01):
I'm happy to share with you what's
known as, our experience,strength and hope.
So for me, I was working inManhattan, probably the late,
early 80s.
I was working in Manhattan forSaks Fifth Avenue.
They had their downtown officesin the Meatpacking District,
which was really actually theMeatpacking District where there
(01:26):
were Companies that were,selling meat, you know, and now
it's
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27 (01:30):
Oh, wow.
kathy--she-her-_3_04- (01:30):
different scenario, but I was on 15th
street between 9th and 10thAvenue and I was in my early
twenties and I'm working with,my boss, her name is Paula, one
point Paula says to me, Kathy,you seem so sad and you're not
yourself lately.
Is everything okay?
And I remember thinking, wow,gee, she, she's perceptive, you
(01:55):
know?
And, I, I, I said, yeah, well,I'm not, I'm really not feeling
so great, these days.
And she said, well, why don'tyou come into my office and we
can talk a little bit.
more about what's going on inyour personal life.
So I went into her office andshe shut the door and she said,
what's going on?
And I said, well, you know, I'mat home.
I'm living at home with my momand my sister and my stepdad and
(02:16):
my mom's has really beenescalating.
And my sister, my older sisteralso has started to do, you
know, heavy drugs.
And it's really to watch theboth of them.
you know, do what they're doingto themselves.
And, um, you know, just a quick,I'm going to step back and this
may come again into theforefront, but just quickly, I'm
(02:39):
now about 22 years old.
I'm living in Northern NewJersey, working in Manhattan.
I grew up in Newark, New Jersey.
I spent the first 11 years of mylife in Newark, New Jersey.
my dad was a jazz musician.
My mom was, Both a homemaker andkind of a part time secretary
administrative assistant.
(03:01):
And both my parents, who wereincredibly, you know, creative
and passionate, and fun andloving, were also consumed with,
alcoholism and, And drugs.
And there was a lot of domesticviolence in my home that my
sister and I witnessed littlekids.
So, uh, my parents, you know,eventually separated, my sister,
(03:24):
my mother, and I moved toanother town.
My father moved to Miami,Florida.
during the time of theseparation, which was very
traumatic for my mom, eventhough the level of violence in
the home was, was severe, it wasvery severe, She was still
devastated by my father'schoosing to leave the marriage
and move south.
(03:45):
we moved together.
And during that time, herdrinking escalated and my
sister's also, drug useescalated.
So I'm sitting in my boss'soffice at Paula and I'm telling
her about my family's drinking.
And she said, have you everheard of Al Anon?
And I said, no, what's that?
(04:07):
She said, I think it's forpeople whose families drinking.
and I think it's like, it'sabout, you know, if your family
or a friend is drinking, you cango there for help.
She said, what, what do youthink?
Would you, would you?
Would you be willing to check itout?
I've heard about it and itsounds like it would be
(04:29):
something that you could checkout and you could benefit from.
And she had a yellow pages.
This is, you know, this is theeighties.
There's a yellow pages.
Nadine, you're so gorgeous andyoung.
I
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2 (04:39):
I
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-20 (04:39):
that you've ever seen a yellow page.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (04:42):
know the yellow pages.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27- (04:43):
great.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27- (04:44):
An anthology of numbers,
essentially.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-2 (04:47):
Exactly.
So she pulls out a yellow pagesand says, here's a number to
call.
you know, maybe, maybe there'ssomewhere they have meetings
and, you know, this is all newto me.
I had no idea, you know, 1983,22 years old, 1982, you know,
and I called and there was ameeting that was very close to
(05:08):
where I lived in New Jersey Iwent.
I went, I was feeling sohelpless, to watch my mother who
was, you know, angry.
She, you know, she was so lovingand kind when she was not
drinking.
And when she drank, she just wasvery angry and, wasn't pretty,
you know, Dr.
Jekyll and Mr.
Hyde.
And then of course, to see mybeautiful sister, you know,
(05:30):
stumbling into our home and,Being vulnerable.
She was in vulnerable position.
So I went into this meeting andI went in and, there was a group
of ladies sitting at the tableand there simultaneously was an
alcoholic synonymous meetinghappening.
And I remember just kind of likeseeing two different signs and
(05:51):
walking into the Al Anonmeeting.
I remember going into the roomand, the women said, welcome.
they said their names, I have avague recollection.
One in particular had thisreally blonde, blonde hair and a
lot of makeup on and just kindof a dramatic look.
and they said, welcome.
and they said, you know whatthis is?
(06:11):
And I said, not really.
I said, but I'm here because Ireally want you to tell me how I
can, make my mom stop drinking.
they said, this is not aboutthat.
This is about you and what youcan do for yourself, in regards
to living with someone who youdeeply care about, who's
drinking, and that started myjourney of 12 step programs, Al
(06:36):
Anon.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (06:38):
Wow.
Thank you so much for sharing.
I actually got chills, Cathy,when you were sharing parts of
your story, in particular about,the pain you felt seeing
firsthand how alcohol affectedyour home, specifically your
sister and your mom.
And I resonate with parts ofthat in the sense that, you feel
powerless over seeing Your lovedones deteriorate or act
(07:03):
differently on a substance likealcohol.
And when you said Dr.
Jacko, Mr.
Hyde, like that's, those arewords I've used to describe my
mother's relationship withalcohol when she was drinking,
thank God she doesn't drinkanymore, She was the kindest,
sweetest person.
Just to echo some of thesentiments that you shared when
she was sober, you could justsee the torment and the pain,
(07:24):
When she started to drink andshe would lash out and just
become a different person.
I didn't recognize.
And that's terrifying.
And so I can't wait to hear moreof your story because I know
that you're also a part ofAlcoholics Anonymous.
So I'm going to make anassumption here that you
Somewhat followed that pathwaywith your drinking or you're
(07:45):
using and I hope I'm not beingtoo presumptuous, but it's so
interesting because I feel likewhen you grow up in a household
where people abuse substances,it's almost like you have this
loathing this hatred because yousee firsthand what it does to
the other person.
But yet it's, there's stilllike, an alluring aspect, like,
how do we find ourselves insimilar predicaments?
(08:06):
So I can't wait to hear more ofyour story.
And thank you for sharing thoseparts so far.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2 (08:10):
Thank you.
and I'm so glad you canidentify, you know, I think
that's the, you know, the, thebeauty of recovery is that, we
had grown up and obviously youand I don't know each other
until this moment, but that youwould also have these
experiences and you know whatit's like to be in a home where
there's, active alcoholism andhow, just how it turns so
(08:31):
quickly, you know, and how scaryit is.
I so appreciate that.
what I slowly learned is thatalcoholism is a family disease
that each one of us hasalcoholism the sense of we may
not be drinking, so to speak,but we do have behaviors or
attitudes and we either areenabling the alcoholic or were
(08:56):
letting the alcoholic kind ofdeal with their own lives.
But it's our behavior to thewhole family system is
connected.
you know, whether the person isdrinking or not, I personally,
took my first drink when I was12 I drank and I remember I
liked it, very much.
I remember getting drunk and Iremember wanting to do it again.
(09:19):
I was the kind of drinker thatwas more of a periodic, like I
wasn't drinking every day.
I didn't want to drink everyday.
but I did want to drink and Idid look forward to it.
So throughout, high school andthen into college, there was, bi
weekly episodes of me drinkingand getting drunk, while in Al
Anon, I was introduced brieflyto ACA, Adult Children of
(09:42):
Alcoholics, someone recommendedthat I go to a meeting in
Manhattan, and that might be alittle bit more of a deeper
recovery for me, so I was open,I was very open, and I was very
willing, and I felt the benefitsof Al Anon, just the relief of
like, didn't cause this.
I can't control this.
I can't cure this.
(10:03):
I can learn how to cope withthis.
So I started going to ACA inManhattan down on, Cooper
square.
There was a Cooper squaremeeting and I'd go after work
and I have an aunt who lives inManhattan and I would stay with
her all the time.
at that ACA meeting, I met aman, his name was Alan.
And Alan and I just werefriends.
(10:23):
We, you know, we'd see eachother weekly.
We started to talk, we'd havecoffee and he was older than I
was.
He'd lived in Manhattan.
He was a playwright.
He was just a very kind person.
I started to open up about mydrinking.
And he said to me, you be, yoube open to going to an AA
(10:44):
meeting?
I said, me, you know, me, I, youknow, like he said, yeah, I'm,
you know, there's a meeting onPerry street.
it's a great meeting.
Let's go together.
and I said, okay, yeah, I'll go.
And I remember we got there andbefore going into Perry street,
which is a great meeting inManhattan, it's called the
(11:06):
emergency room of AA.
people who are going in invarious stages of their
recovery.
He said, please don't compareyourself with the speaker or
with anybody in the room.
Just identify with the feelingsof the speaker.
walked in, we sat down, thelights are dimmed.
It's a full room and I start tolisten I'm listening.
(11:30):
all of a sudden, a transvestitewalks in with a, a blonde matted
wig, wearing a pink tutu.
And this person goes over towhere the coffee and the cookies
are being served and startseating cookies and takes a
carton of milk and startsdrinking and the milk is
dripping down there, pink tutu,and I just focused on that
(11:52):
because I thought that wasamazing.
That's crazy.
That is so crazy.
And after the meeting, my friendAlan and I talked and I said,
I'm not that crazy.
He said, no, no, don't compareyourself people.
but the seed was planted.
The seed was
the-sober-butterfly_3_04 (12:06):
right?
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27 (12:07):
shortly after that, maybe two or three
years later, my drinkingcontinued.
And then I started, doing otherthings, which accelerated my
bottom, thank God.
and I went to AlcoholicsAnonymous, for my own
alcoholism.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (12:19):
Wow, that's powerful.
That's really powerful.
And that was really solid advicethat Alan gave you, which is
don't compare yourself, but it'sso easy to fall prey to.
I'm not this, like, I can'tresonate with this, but it's
more so connecting to thefeelings as mentioned.
So I'm glad that later on, asyou mentioned, you got to a
place where it seemed like maybeit was harder for you to deny.
(12:43):
You're drinking and how it wasimpacting your life.
Or as people like to say, thepowerlessness, the chaos of your
own, life.
So do you mind sharing with uswhat that looked like?
Was there a turning point foryou?
I don't necessarily like toreference rock bottoms, but what
got you to a place ofsurrendering fully?
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2 (13:04):
Thank you.
and I just want to say, Nadine,I think you hit the nail on the
head with, that humanconnection, you know, that we're
all, it doesn't matter, they sayin the program, it doesn't
matter if you come from Yale orjail, Park Avenue or Park Bench,
alcohol is the great equalizer,you know, I think I wasn't
ready.
You know, I know the seed wasplanted at that Perry Street
(13:24):
meeting.
And I know my friend just heard,the therapeutic value of one
alcoholic talking to another.
He could see it was, certainlyself diagnosed.
He didn't say, Kathy, you're analcoholic.
but he brought me to thatmeeting and That made an
impression on me.
So yeah, we're going to fastforward to 1986.
I'm 25 years old and I'm justmiserable.
(13:47):
I have a great job.
I'm working as a flightattendant with a major airline.
I'm traveling a great deal.
I have a boyfriend.
I'm living in Manhattan now withmy aunt.
on the outside, things seem tobe.
Great.
You know, I'm going to Londonand Italy and, you know, on my
(14:07):
excursions as a flightattendant.
This is a job I've alwayswanted.
boyfriend, do you know, I, andwe'll go into that a little bit
later on, but you know, he'sthere, you know, and of course
we're drinking.
He
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2 (14:21):
a part in the story I'm sure, but
yes, he's a boyfriend.
He's a man.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2 (14:25):
does, he does.
And I'm so grateful for him.
And, you know, we, we have a lotin common, mostly that we drink
and drug the same really, andthat kind of keeps us bonded.
So it's New Year's Eve 86, 87.
And, I'm just feeling like Ihate myself, my life.
it sucks.
(14:46):
I know that once I startdrinking alcohol, I can't stop.
And then once I start drinking,then I want to find these other
substances, which are veryexpensive.
And, you know, then I have tocall my dealer and I have to,
you know, it's like a wholething.
And new year's Eve, I'm with myboyfriend, Joey at the time.
And, drank everything.
We did all the drugs we could.
(15:07):
And I was, I couldn't, I didn'tfeel high.
And I heard very clearly avoice, whisper to me, Kathy.
You need help.
And it wasn't Joey, you know,and I heard that really loud and
clear.
And I remember being told as akid from my grandmother on my
(15:29):
dad's side, that I had aguardian angel.
there was always going to be aguardian angel watching out for
me.
And I felt like that was a voicefrom an entirely different
place.
And, I went home.
I was in New Jersey where Joeylived.
I went home and I calledAlcoholics Anonymous.
And this was in January of 1987.
And I said, you know, I, I, Ineed help.
(15:49):
I need to, I need to get to anAA meeting.
And, know, there was, this isbefore the internet and before,
you know, just, you know, then.
And they said, well, there's ameeting tonight right where you
live.
It's just a few blocks fromwhere you live.
it said, you know, whatever timeit was, it was in the early
evening seven or 7 30.
And they said, Can you make itthere tonight?
And I said, Well, I I think so.
(16:11):
You know, I think so.
And, they said, well, you canalways come here and get a
meeting list.
So this was where, the Flatironbuilding, Flatiron building is
on, in, on 23rd street.
And I remember I walked to theFlatiron building and it's cold
out and I'm walking in thebuilding and looking for AA,
it's called AA intergroup.
And I'm looking around and thislittle old lady comes up to me
and she says, looking for thatroom right over there.
(16:35):
said, we alcoholics know eachother now, don't we?
And, that was
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (16:39):
Wow.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024 (16:39):
So I, yeah, I got to, I feel like
that was my grandmother too, youknow, guardian angels.
I got to a meeting that nightand on my way there, I have to
see Nadine now.
I'm, I'm like three weeks shy ofmy 26th birthday.
And I'm thinking I'm on my wayto Alcoholics Anonymous.
My life is over.
I'm with bums.
I'm there.
(17:00):
They're a bunch of bums, youknow, and I walk into this
meeting, it was packed, it wasan anniversary meeting.
People were dressed better thanI was.
They spoke better than I did.
I mean, they were gorgeous.
I'm like, this is AA, you know,
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (17:15):
they have what I want.
Yep.
That's so powerful.
Now, during this time, were youstill going to Al and all
meetings or had you kind of leftthat to the side?
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024 (17:27):
it was Al Anon and ACA.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27 (17:28):
Oh, right.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (17:29):
And then also ACA had brought me, it
was strongly recommended that Igo into therapy.
And my aunt, who had a lot ofexperience with therapy and
therapists, recommended atherapist.
And so a lot, of what I wasdoing was going into therapy and
ACA meetings.
And the therapist who I startedto get honest with about my
(17:50):
drinking and my drug use said tome, I told him about an episode
and also around that time aroundNovember, you know, they say
it's a threefold disease,Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New
Year's, it's like those three, Itold him about an episode of my
drinking and drug use.
And he very clearly said to me,You're wasting my time you're
(18:14):
wasting your money if youcontinue to drink and drug
because we're not going to makeany progress
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (18:20):
Wow.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024 (18:21):
if you're drinking and drugging
like this and it like when hesaid that to me No one had ever
said it to me.
So Bluntly, I felt like a coldglass of water was poured in my
face Cause he was giving me anultimatum.
He was being so honest.
And I thought, wow.
So that also was part of the,you know, really waking up, to
(18:43):
then go into AlcoholicsAnonymous.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (18:46):
Wow.
That's so powerful.
I also had, An amazing therapistwho helped me get to a place to
accept help and she had more ofa low touch approach and I think
I needed that because similar towhen your friend Alan he didn't
directly say to you, I thinkyou're an alcoholic.
Like maybe that would havescared you at that moment.
I think over the course ofseveral months of working with
(19:07):
her, she just kept asking me.
Okay, after episode, afterepisode, every week, you know,
I'm telling her stories, commondenominator is always drugging
and alcohol and she kept saying,well, how would you define your
relationship with alcohol orwith substances until, you know,
eventually I could no longerdeny that it was extremely
problematic and so that that'swhat helped me get into the
(19:28):
rooms, but like, I think, youknow, it's just sometimes we
need the direct approach.
The mirror, it's almost like amirror being held up to you.
It's like, I can no longer denythat I need help.
so that's really, reallypowerful.
And I'm glad that your therapistencouraged you to stop wasting
your time and their time.
so what did life look like foryou once you started actually
(19:52):
accepting the support that youneeded?
did it change?
Immediately, did you start tonotice small changes?
Was it like a full, like, fulltransformation?
Like, how would you define that1st year?
I think so many people focus on,like, year 1.
So do you remember or recallwhat your experiences were like
then?
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_ (20:12):
I do.
I appreciate you kind ofbringing me back.
To that moment, because when Iwalked into the meeting that I
did, which became my home group,which is called the Gramercy
group, which is still around,you know, when I first walked in
and at that meeting, they ask ifanyone is here for the very
first time.
And I remember raising my handand just saying, I'm Kathy and I
(20:33):
think I'm an alcoholic.
And after that meeting, allthese women.
Came up to me and surrounded meand gave me phone numbers and
said, call me.
I'm going to a meeting tomorrownight.
Call me.
I'm speaking at a meet.
I know.
I didn't know what they weretalking about.
Really.
I'd had no idea.
I just knew that I felt, I justcouldn't go on the way that I
(20:54):
was.
I just couldn't go on becausethere was no, no relief in
alcohol, no relief in drugs, norelief in my boyfriend, no
relief in travel, everythingthat I look to, to kind of take
me, like to get high with wasnot working.
and so I called a woman the nextday and she said, Oh, I'm
speaking at a meeting.
Why don't you join me?
and I went and then I slowlylearned, you know, you don't
(21:17):
drink.
A day at a time, no matter whathappens, no matter how you're
feeling.
If you get the job, boyfriend,whatever of your dreams, or if
you lose everything, you don'tdrink no matter what.
that you change people, places,and things.
And that meant, my boyfriend,that meant my family.
I had to, not that I couldchange them, but I couldn't see
(21:38):
them for a long time.
I couldn't see my mom and Icouldn't see my sister, for at
least the first 90 days of mine.
sobriety.
it was too much of a trigger.
It was, it was, you know, the,the rooms of a were pulling me
into sobriety and they, they,they were pulling me and I could
feel my disease pulling me inthe opposite direction.
(22:00):
I knew that I was powerless overalcohol.
I knew that once I drank.
I couldn't stop.
I didn't think my life wasunmanageable.
I still worked.
I was in such denial.
I really didn't know how sick Iwas.
I thought this was normal.
I knew that the way I drank, Icouldn't do it, but I didn't
think my life was unmanageable.
(22:21):
So it took a long time.
That first year my sponsor wouldsay to me, I said, I don't know
if I'm really an alcoholic.
And she would say, listen, justtoday, don't drink, go to a
meeting.
Let's start some step work.
make sure you call me and youbrush your teeth and you eat a
cheeseburger.
And, I remember crying andcrying and crying that first
year.
I missed alcohol.
(22:42):
I didn't realize the, The deeprelationship we had, I didn't
realize how I relied on alcoholbecause I was not a daily
drinker.
I looked like I had my stufftogether.
you would see me from theoutside looking in and I
presented well, and I had asmile on my face.
Certainly as a flight attendant,that's kind of part of our
(23:02):
training.
I joined a major airline andthey say, the first thing they
tell you is you've given up yourright to a bad mood.
But it helped with my,
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (23:11):
Wow.
kathy--she-her-_3_04 (23:12):
mechanism.
Like you weren't going to getin.
I was going to be as kind as youknow, kind as I possibly could.
So that first year was strictlyon the first step not drinking
changing people places andthings crying.
I've got angry 90 days.
I took a yellow pages and Iripped it to shreds I took, you
(23:35):
know, I had pencils in my roomand I broke.
I was so angry.
so angry.
and my sponsor and the women inthe room and the men too, you
know, the men too were sohelpful.
just said to me, listen, justkeep coming and don't drink and
it's, it's all going to be allright.
And it was on, on a year,probably it was on my year
anniversary.
(23:55):
Uh, I was at a meeting called,living sober.
I really accepted that I was analcoholic.
I truly accepted, and I justtotally surrendered.
And, I felt so much better, butit was, it was a fight.
I was fighting it.
but I'm grateful that I didn'tdrink and I just trusted the
people and I trusted the programto, to get me to where I needed
(24:15):
to go.
I really didn't know, but I, Itrusted on some level.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2 (24:20):
I also remember feeling extremely
angry and the people I wasleaning on for support were
telling me I was an alcoholicand I was very much in denial
because I was like, how dareyou?
Like, you don't even know me.
Like it's this resistance,right?
It's like, I don't want toreceive this label because of
all of the stigma
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-20 (24:39):
Yes.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27 (24:39):
and the comparison.
Once again, like my drinking, itwasn't quite like you.
I thought I was a socialdrinker.
Like I mainly drink.
When I was out and about, but Icould never manage my drinking.
I could never stop.
I could never have one.
and then of course theprogressive nature of
alcoholism, I would drink moreand more for me, timeline wise
pandemic.
completely exasperated, like somany others, my drinking.
(25:01):
So now I was drinking at home.
But I was still completely indenial.
So I think I, and many peoplecan relate to this idea of like,
I don't want this label of analcoholic because A, I don't
really understand what thatfully entails.
And B, I don't like this idea ofa label defining me.
So I feel like that's almost agood transition how did you
(25:22):
confront or deal with any stigmaor any, you know, stereotypes
the term alcoholic, did thatchange your perception of self?
Did that change yourrelationship with others?
did you deal with any judgmentor shame from accepting that you
were an alcoholic?
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27- (25:41):
that's a great question.
in the mid eighties, so manypeople started to come into the
program and get sober and, Iwould see, people that I'd seen
on TV or at a movie, at ameeting.
people will be like, Oh, it'scool to get sober.
It's cool to be sober.
And I'm like, I know.
Well, you know, it was reallyout of desperation.
but I felt like, you know, fromthe thirties to the eighties,
(26:02):
because I think early on, it wassuch a stigma.
you know, early on, cause myperception too, like I thought
when I first, as I said, youknow, I thought these were
Bowery bums.
So my perception changed.
Like I'm sitting next to,college professors and CEOs.
And, you know, I'm sitting nextto, educated people.
(26:24):
this is not what AlcoholicsAnonymous is.
So it really helped to open mymind, and also there were young
people.
There were people my age, 25,26, 27 year olds who had been
sober for like a year or twoyears.
they seemed so happy.
there was a joy.
they were doing fun things.
They were, going out, they wereskiing and traveling and going
(26:47):
to the movies and, havingparties sober.
So I thought, wow, the wholeworld opened up, from being in
Alcoholics Anonymous.
I think for me, I realized that.
You know, because I didn'tunderstand it.
A lot of people just don'tunderstand.
They don't understand thatalcoholism has no boundaries.
(27:11):
It's not confined to people whoare, you know, on the street or
have no teeth or have no family.
It touches everyone.
and there were times though, youknow, and this is my own.
I have a, you know, a story.
I reached out to an oldboyfriend, I always wanted a
boyfriend.
I had to have a boyfriend, hadto have a boyfriend, boyfriend,
boyfriend, boyfriend.
Um, So I remember them saying norelationships for the first year
(27:33):
and I thought you guys arecrazy.
I mean, I'm not going to drinkand I'm not going to drug and
I'm not going to have aboyfriend.
Are you crazy?
the-sober-butterfly_3_04- (27:41):
Wait, so did you break up with Joey?
What happened with Joey?
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_ (27:43):
I did.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04- (27:44):
Okay.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (27:45):
who I drunk, you know, I drank with,
who were calling me and I had mydrug dealer who was calling me
and I said, you know, I, I can'tsee you right now.
I just can't see you right now.
Maybe it'll at a later date, butright now I can't, I remember my
drug dealer.
know, coming over and said,don't worry, I'm not going to,
I'm not going to do anything.
I'm not going to like shoveanything up your nose or I'm not
(28:06):
going to force you.
I just want to see you.
I just want to spend time withyou.
And he came into Manhattan and Igot into his car and he had a
joint in his ashtray.
And I said, I can't do this.
I'm sorry.
I can't do this.
So yeah,
the-sober-butterfly_3_04- (28:21):
Yeah.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (28:21):
And sadly, Joey died.
Joey died of alcoholism, sadly.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27 (28:25):
Oh,
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-20 (28:26):
five
the-sober-butterfly_3_04 (28:26):
That's really sad.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (28:27):
And a lot of people, know, it kills,
it does kill.
the disease does kill.
So I've had a lot of people inmy life, my family members as
well.
My sister included who died ofalcoholism.
So yeah, Joey and I broke up.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04 (28:41):
sorry, Kathy.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2 (28:42):
Thank you, Nadine.
Thank you.
Appreciate that.
I did reach out to a boyfriendearly on.
I was on the first step and Isaid to my sponsor, I want to
make amends, I want to do theninth step.
of course my motive was notpure.
I didn't want to really make
the-sober-butterfly_3_04 (28:55):
Right,
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27- (28:56):
wanted a boyfriend.
And she said to me, I'm gonna,I'm going to strongly suggest.
you don't do that.
Not yet.
said, and you're an alcoholic,you're going to do whatever you
want to do.
You know, I can't tell you whatto do.
I'm going to strongly suggest.
So I wrote him this reallyletter about how I was so sorry
(29:16):
and I really would like to getback to him and I'm out.
And he called me up and he saidto me, you know, when I think
about it now, he said, I'm sosorry.
You're an alcoholic synonym.
I'm so sorry.
I really hope you, you, youknow, like I was a leper, you
know, Yeah,
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2 (29:37):
I cannot believe it.
It's for you.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (29:39):
and I learned my lesson to always
check my motives and to do thesteps in order that they are
created so yeah, so myperception changed people around
me You know, I was also 26 now,27.
And people would say to me,you're so young.
They would say, You're not analcoholic.
And my sponsor said to me, it'snot for them to determine that
Kathy.
(30:00):
It's a self diagnosed disease.
You'll know if you're analcoholic or not.
So that was very helpful.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04- (30:07):
Yeah.
That's very profound.
And I think the self-diagnosispiece is you have to trust
yourself to know, right?
Like you, and I think the beautyof removing the alcohol is that
you gain, or the substance isthat you gain more clarity, like
you're more intuitive and youcan connect with your inner
self.
a lot more clearly.
And yeah, that's the mostdifficult part because it's
(30:28):
sometimes like you're going backto that resistance, right?
You're fighting yourself andthere's outside influences.
You have people in this camp onone side telling you, Kathy,
Nadine, you're not an alcoholic.
What are you talking about?
Maybe they have an issue withalcohol.
And then, of course, you havepeople in the programs, in the
rooms, telling you, like, I, Isee myself in you.
Like, you're an alcoholic.
(30:49):
So it can be very conflicting,but ultimately, your sponsor was
100 percent correct.
Like, you know if you're analcoholic or not.
there is an inner voice.
I think I always knew.
But I just ignored it or triedto subdue it.
but definitely can identify withthat as well.
So I'm curious about the othermembership.
So we have so far we've coveredAl Anon, we've covered,
(31:11):
Alcoholics Anonymous, but youalso mentioned that you were a
part of other organizations aswell.
Do you mind sharing a little bitabout that story or that journey
that led you to seek membershipwith those groups?
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2 (31:22):
Yeah, no, I'd be happy to.
I was probably about five yearssober and I went to get my hair
cut in Manhattan and the womancutting my hair was a friend of
mine from AA and she's cuttingmy hair.
Her name is Sharon.
I'm telling her that, you know,I never seem to have any money.
(31:43):
working full time.
have a great job.
I never seem to know where mymoney goes.
I can't seem to pay my bills ontime.
I'm really confused aroundmoney.
And she said to me.
have a program for you.
It's called debtors anonymous.
And I said, what's that?
(32:04):
She said, well, it's for peoplewho are very vague about their
money and who seemed toconstantly be.
incurring debt or living creditcard to credit card or don't
know where their money goes.
she was dating, at the time,this is like a non conference
approved book.
His name is Jerry Mundus.
(32:24):
He's since passed away.
He wrote a book.
How to get out of debt, stay outof debt and live prosperously.
And, Jerry was in debtorsanonymous and she said, there's
a meeting tonight in Manhattan,of course.
And, why don't you go?
And I went, I went and I, Iremember sitting there going
again, my perception like, oh myGod, debtors anonymous.
(32:48):
sounds bad.
Now, what am I doing?
and again, a group of beautiful,well dressed, articulate,
educated men and women who aretalking about how they've gotten
clear with their money becausethey realized that they had this
compulsion to do it.
(33:09):
To debt.
and I'm just going to say, sothis is 1990.
It's now 2024.
I, Nadine have been in and outof debtors anonymous for these
many years.
And the last four yearscommitted to debtors anonymous
recommitted.
And now I'm solvent.
when I say that I'm solvent,that means that I have not
(33:31):
incurred.
any unsecured debt since, June28th, 2021.
and in Debtors Anonymous.
Thank you.
What a blessing.
Debtors Anonymous is just anamazing, amazing program.
It has brought me to a level ofclarity and, freedom that I
(33:52):
hadn't really experienced in AA.
I needed to go deeper.
I needed to stop anothercompulsive, Behavior in which I
was punishing myself with thelack of clarity around money.
and I can certainly go into moreof the details, but that's how I
was introduced to debtorsanonymous.
And I'm so grateful that it'sand I'm happy to talk more about
(34:13):
it or talk to anybody, ifanybody's interested, if they
hear this and want to hear moreabout it, and certainly if you
have any questions about it,Nadine.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04- (34:21):
Yeah, thank you so much, Kathy.
I feel like here's the thing.
When we get sober, I think oneof the, I guess I'll call it a
misconception because I thinkit's misunderstood.
You just think that all parts ofyour life will fall into place.
And I experienced, I believe alittle bit of an addiction
transferral and you mentionedbefore this idea of compulsion
(34:45):
where it's like, if you're notnecessarily getting to the root
causes of what's driving somebehaviors and connected to the
alcoholic brain, I'll call itself sabotage.
Like, I think a big part of itfor myself in terms of
overspending, I actually did anepisode in my podcast about
overspending and sobriety onself care in the name of, I'm
going to air quote self care,right?
(35:06):
This umbrella term thatencompasses so many different
things that I think so manysober people fall prey to
because we think that like, Oh,if I'm not spending my money.
on toxic substances, it's okay,but also, where is my money?
So I think a big part of it,I'll just sum it up to say for
myself at least, is feeling lessthan.
(35:26):
Like, feeling a hole, anemptiness, and needing to fill
that hole.
I think I used to fill that holewith alcohol and with drugs, and
I experienced, especially inearly sobriety, and I'm still
not like fully there yet, I'mstill working on this.
but yeah, this need to like,need to, to buy, almost to like
supplement.
A feeling and I can'tnecessarily articulate what that
(35:48):
feeling is other than I thinkit's an inferiority feeling like
I'm not enough.
So very much interested to learnmore of a tenants of, it's it's
called debtors.
Anonymous
kathy--she-her-_3_04-2 (35:59):
Debtor's Anonymous.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27 (36:00):
are the tenants similar to
alcoholics?
Anonymous?
Are you doing step work?
I'm just very curious because Ifeel like so many people would
benefit from learning more aboutthis program.
kathy--she-her-_3_0 (36:11):
Absolutely, it's the 12 step model of
Alcoholics Anonymous and youknow, it's, changed and
customized to, you know, we'repowerless over a compulsive
debt.
And our lives have becomeunmanageable and absolutely
there's literature.
There's a 12, 12 in debtorsanonymous.
There are the signs ofcompulsive debting, kind of the
(36:32):
signposts, you know, like, vagueabout, terms and conditions,
shopping, always shopping for agood deal.
always having a crisis aroundmoney.
definitely that not feelingenough.
And in those 12 signs ofcompulsive debting, I saw
myself.
The vagueness the inability toto kind of have a conversation
(36:55):
around money, like a normalconversation, like shame would
come up, confusion would comeup.
and I just knew that there wassomething that I had to address.
So in debtors anonymous, there'salso the 12 tools.
The tools and, the first tool ismeetings, sponsorship.
And then what we do is we keepour numbers.
(37:17):
So each day we're recording whatmoney comes in, if any, and what
money's going out.
And we can record those numbersanyway.
We choose whatever works for us.
as long as I do it, I'll say formyself.
So I have an app on my phone andI'll record, you know, today I
went grocery shopping before I.
Got on the call with you.
(37:38):
I got gas.
and I paid some tolls on theGarden State Parkway.
And I recorded them in my app.
So I'm clear, the numbers.
And then, one of the other toolsis, having a pressure relief
group.
a pressure relief group, happensafter one has become familiar
with the program.
(37:58):
And they've had their numbersfor, say, 30, 60, or 90 days.
And they have some pressures.
And the pressures could be,dramatic, certainly it could be
you're being evicted, you'vejust been fired, you have a
medical concern, or it can bejust like, I don't know really
how to spend my money.
I don't know what I'm doing, youknow, and so two people will
(38:20):
come together.
that have solvency, at least 90days of solvency.
And they'll sit with you, sitwith me, and I tell them my
numbers, my income, my outgo,and then they help me to
formulate a spending plan and anaction plan.
when I sat down and I've gonethrough the steps of Debtors
Anonymous and I have sponseesnow, in DA, who I'm so grateful
(38:43):
for.
you know, we just, just kind ofget clear, just get clear.
And the main thing is not todebt.
That means not to incur anyunsecured debt, which means I
don't use a credit card.
I don't use a credit card.
I either pay in cash I set asidethe funds and I'll use a debit
card, I'm not living above mymeans.
(39:06):
I'm not living in denial.
And it's definitely, I think youhit the core.
I think you're very astute.
me just say how astute I thinkyou are, Nadine, and just the
questions that you're asking andthe way that you're asking.
I so appreciate your, um, yourfocus.
So it definitely is this thingof like, I'm not enough.
I don't have enough.
I'm not enough.
never be enough.
(39:27):
so it's, it's a fabulous,fabulous program and I wish more
people knew about it for sure.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04 (39:33):
That's beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that.
I think more people now arelearning about it and yeah, I
think you're helping so manypeople and I think even
reflecting on my own story andmy own situation.
It's yeah, not feeling enough.
the irony of that is I think wehave the dopamine rush.
(39:54):
When we buy things, whether weneed them or not, or we convince
ourselves that we need them andthe rush comes.
It's the high that I think I'malways chasing in one form or
another.
And then it goes away.
And then I feel like I need mynext high.
Constant ebb and flow between,you know, it's never enough.
And then I also, in the samebreath, I'll share this, Kathy.
(40:16):
I get overwhelmed when I havetoo much stuff, when it's too
much clutter.
and of course you can spend yourmoney in various things.
Like I've definitely overspentwith travel.
I tell myself, Oh, like theseare, you know, unforgettable
moments.
You can't buy that, but it comesat a cost, right?
So it's just like all of thesethings, I'm whether it's
tangible or not living.
I think you hit it.
(40:37):
Hit it on the head, like livingabove your means is living.
Also, I think in denial becauseyou're not being transparent and
you're not being accountable orheld accountable.
And it's so easy to continueliving in denial because you
don't want to look at thenumbers and you don't want to
see how, how much you dug a holeuntil maybe you're faced with,
(40:59):
you know, Something that youcan't, you can no longer deny.
And it's beautiful to like, tryand get there before you're
forced to get there.
So I think that's so amazingthat you haven't incurred any
new debt since 2021 and you'renot using credit cards I think
so many people can benefit fromthat because when you have true
stability and security with yourfinances.
(41:22):
It lends itself to other areasof your life feeling more secure
and feeling more.
just in control, I think as wellas just to know where you are in
life.
So that's so powerful.
So thank you for sharing that.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-20 (41:34):
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the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2 (43:19):
I love this next one because I
haven't heard of it and I thinkI need to maybe Learn more about
it, which is this idea of sexand love addicts anonymous.
I've never heard of sex and loveaddicts anonymous.
Can you share a little bit moreabout what led you to sex and
love, anonymous and what thatlooks like?
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024 (43:38):
my very first introduction to sex
and love at X anonymous.
was at a meeting in Manhattanand I was probably maybe eight
or nine years sober.
I shared something in themeeting.
I don't recall what I sharedexactly.
After the meeting, a man cameover to me and said, have you
(43:58):
ever heard of sex and loveethics anonymous?
And I said, no.
said, I think you could benefitfrom that.
And I'm thinking, who is thisguy and what is he talking, you
know, like what, me, what?
And he said, are you going to beat this meeting next week?
Cause I would give you their bigbook.
(44:19):
So I said, yeah.
So lo and behold, the next weekhe brought in the sex and love
addicts anonymous big book.
I started reading it and Istarted to identify with this
kind of serial monogamy.
Always needing a boyfriend,never feeling enough.
obsessing about men, pining overthis one and wanting that one.
(44:40):
a lot of fantasy living a lot infantasy.
and this is, you know, at 10years sober, I don't think I
ever went to a meeting cause thestigma with that, I thought I am
not walking into a sex and loveaddicts, anonymous me.
I'm just not going to do that.
I just can't do that.
You know, that seemed likeBeyond, you know, beyond the
beyonds.
(45:01):
And I just thought this was myconditioning.
Like you had to be married inorder to be happy, or you had to
be in a relationship in order tobe happy.
you have to have children, this,that, and the other thing.
So I was very confused.
Let me just say, I was veryconfused and certainly growing
up in an atmosphere where themarriage that I witnessed, even
though I'm sure my parents notset out to traumatize their
(45:23):
kids.
sure that was not in their mindsat all.
domestic violence, watchingparents, my parents, you know,
hurt each other physically andemotionally, really was, was
hard, was very difficult.
And I think it imprinted on methis thing of, It's not safe.
(45:44):
It's not safe, you know, and soI would date people and then
we'd start to get very close andI'd break up, you know, we get
to a certain place and then I'dbreak up with them.
When I was a flight attendant,so I was always traveling and I
always had a reason why Icouldn't stick around and, and
lo and behold, you know, Icontinued to stay sober.
I continued to, be in therapy.
(46:05):
I had women in my life who saidto me, I think you're going to
want to have kids one day.
And I think you are going towant to get married.
And I was.
Probably 38 or 39.
I started to have this call tomotherhood, call to marriage.
And I did a lot of work.
I've done an enormous amount ofwork throughout the years,
Nadine.
I've taken workshops and therapyand saw psychics and healers and
(46:27):
shamans.
And, prayers and I had a lot ofemotional work to do with the
amount of trauma.
It's called developmentaltrauma.
What I, what I grew up with,from one to 10, and I had a lot
of emotional work to do causethere was, a lot of wounding
that happened as a kid.
And, so, You know, I, I did getmarried.
(46:49):
I do have a 19 year old son.
I was so, so grateful.
So grateful.
it's a, it's a blessing to be amother and it's, it's hard work.
and, and I, and I did divorce.
I was with my, my ex husbandJorge for about 14 years,
married for 11.
And it was around this time.
So we're, we divorced and my sonand I moved.
(47:11):
We were living in Puerto Ricoand, connected with an old
boyfriend who was, notavailable, which was my, this is
my kind of my pattern.
Like the men are very attractiveand they're married usually.
and I started this torrid loveaffair.
I was just recently divorced.
He was still married.
(47:32):
I realized that this guy was mydrug.
Every time I was with him, Ifelt high.
I could just feel it.
I could just feel my wholeenergy.
He was married, you know, and hehas a son who has Down syndrome
and, you know, his family neededhim.
And I just knew I needed help.
And I remembered Love AddictsAnonymous, and I reached out, I
(47:54):
think they're talking about S La, a, the acronym.
And I went to a meeting and thatwas in August of 2014.
I stopped seeing this man Ibegan the journey of, really
looking at.
Myself in a very different wayand looking at the men that I
chose and really dealing withsome very, deep issues
(48:17):
childhood.
yeah, it's intent.
I would just
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-2 (48:22):
Wow.
Thank you for sharing that.
the developmental work thatyou've done in therapy.
I want to look into that myselfbecause those prime, those Early
years really shape how you see.
Relationships, how you seeyourself, what you think that
you deserve.
I'm assuming in love and sexaddicts anonymous.
(48:45):
You're doing step work as well,like you're working through that
and I'm assuming a big part ofit is doing work on yourself and
validating that you are enoughand worthy of love.
And if it's not romantic love,I'm assuming it's self love.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-2 (48:59):
exactly.
Exactly.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
it is.
any withdrawal, my experience,certainly my first year of being
sober and AA, I cried a lot.
And I think also when I wentwith debtors anonymous, there's
this transition of this behaviorand how I acted.
And then.
(49:19):
I'm not doing those same things.
So there's this kind of thesethings, the feelings that I was
suppressing with the addiction,right?
Which is really, it's all just asymptom of a much deeper issue.
Yet I needed the structure ofAA, of Al Anon, of ACA, of DA.
I needed to stop the addiction.
(49:39):
And with sex and love addicts, Iwas detoxing from this person, I
thought this has got to be worsethan detoxing from heroin.
I was in my room in a fetalposition crying and crying and
crying, but I think it was thecrying that I never did as a
kid.
It was the crying that I never,the grief, the fear that I was
(50:01):
never willing to go to.
Do you know what I mean?
Like putting down thatrelationship and that man Just
forced me because, you know,they say no contact, no contact.
It's like, don't drink, pick upthe
the-sober-butterfly_3_04- (50:16):
Yeah.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-20 (50:17):
him, do not call him.
And each day I didn't call himthe grief the sadness just
slowly came to the surfaceuntil, you know, I, I don't know
how long I cried, but I, it wasall repressed.
It was all repressed.
inside of me.
I'm so grateful.
I'm grateful to him.
he's with his wife.
(50:37):
I don't see him.
He had reached out to me and Ido not have contact with him.
I just can't.
This is a drug for me and Ican't be around him.
There's no good reason for me tobe with him.
I feel like each of theseprograms brought me to a place
where I could love myself enoughTo allow myself to feel the
grief and to feel the sadnessand to feel the anger and get it
(50:59):
out of my system to stoppunishing myself.
It wasn't my fault whathappened, what happened to me.
And it's not my parents faulteither.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27 (51:10):
Bye
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-20 (51:10):
they had their own trauma when my
parents would tell me abouttheir childhood.
I mean, All of us have ourtrauma.
It's nobody's fault.
but it couldn't have gotten tothat deeper place without the
structures of the programs thatI'm in,
the-sober-butterfly_3_04 (51:27):
That's very powerfully and beautifully
said.
Thank you so much.
I want to wind down and just askif you have any advice that you
could offer to someone who mightbe hesitant or maybe uncertain
about seeking help from any ofthese programs mentioned.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-2024_ (51:45):
I would say if there's something
inside of you that there's thiskind of like, Oh, I've thought
of going to AA.
I've thought of, you know, I,I'm having stuff with my money
or I'm having stuff with myboyfriend or my girlfriend, or,
you know, I would ask that youfollow that and be willing to
explore it a little bit deeperand be willing to go to a
(52:07):
meeting, or a couple of meetingsto see if indeed whatever that
thing inside of you, which is, Ithink for me personally, that
part of you that wants to live,that part of you that loves
yourself, that part of you thatis calling for a life
unencumbered by fear or worryor, you know, addiction to
(52:29):
follow that part and just bewilling to explore without any
kind of like agenda or just, youknow, I'm just going to check it
out.
No pressure, no pressure.
If it doesn't resonate with you,That's okay.
But just follow that.
I think inside of us, we havethat part of us that loves us so
much and wants to live thatwhatever that is.
(52:53):
It's the inner child or thatlife force.
I feel like I have that.
And I think you have that sostrongly too.
And thank you so much for thework that you're doing in the
world.
You know, the work and yourbeautiful light that you bring
to the world, you know, in theway that you bring it.
it's the call for love, forreally a deep, deep love, of
(53:15):
ourselves and, of our, of ourjourneys.
And call me, if anybody wants tocall me, they can call me.
Yes.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2 (53:22):
I love that so much, Kathy.
And I just want to like throwthat right back at you.
Like you have such a lightness,your honesty, like the fact that
you can be so forthcoming, Ithink, with the anonymity
programs.
Obviously, people share in therooms, and I just so appreciate
you for sharing on a widerplatform so that other people
(53:45):
can connect to parts of yourstory or just the emotions that
I feel like I have so manyemotions have come up for me and
hearing you share, which is howI know.
I'm in the right place at theright time, receiving the right
message from you.
And so I just want to thank youso much for coming on and
sharing that with us.
And I think going back to whatyou shared about that, like,
inner, it sounds like innervoice or inner child or just
(54:08):
something within us that existthat life force.
As you mentioned, it reminds meof.
The saying, like, first God, oryou could substitute God with
whatever, right?
First, at first, God whispers,and then he screams.
And I think, for me, that's sopowerful because I just feel
like there's all these littlepebble, like, little, like,
(54:29):
drops.
It's like, okay, like, you heardthat voice very loudly.
Back in the eighties when, youknow, it was New Year's Eve and
you just heard this rumbling,like voice, it's just like, you
need help.
And it wasn't your ex boyfriend.
I think that's the case.
Like, we just know these thingsbefore we know them, if that
makes sense.
Like we know, There's somethingwrong.
(54:51):
Maybe we don't know exactly whatis wrong, but we know something
is wrong.
And if you are open enough withyourself or you have an open
mind to where you can just goright with zero expectation, as
you mentioned, but treat it likea social experiment, just go for
the sake of knowing or learningor listening.
I think you can save lives soyou can save your own life.
(55:12):
That's what you did.
And that's what I, I did andwhat I'm constantly doing.
I think it's the work that wehave to do on a daily basis.
And whether you're in AlcoholicsAnonymous where you're not
drinking or, you know, you'renot reaching out or contacting
someone that is like a drug foryou.
it's just the idea of every dayyou take the necessary steps to
(55:34):
work for yourself and just focuson the here and now and things
will come together as theyunfold.
kathy--she-her-_3_04 (55:40):
beautiful.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2 (55:41):
a gradual process.
kathy--she-her-_3_0 (55:42):
Absolutely.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04- (55:43):
thank you so much for sharing all of.
All of your wisdom, all of yourgems.
I'm just so grateful.
I want to open the platform aswe wind down.
Is there anything, I know thatyou've shared tons of resources.
if people did want to get incontact with you, is there a
good way to do so?
Absolutely.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (55:59):
You know, they could reach out to
you and then you would then letme know?
Because
the-sober-butterfly (56:04):
Absolutely.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-202 (56:06):
And I'm, I, I promise, I promise
anyone who reaches out to youand you then let me know.
I will call them.
I will, email them, text them,but I will reach back.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27-2 (56:17):
I appreciate that.
And I just so appreciate youcoming on and sharing.
Thank you so much, Kathy.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27-20 (56:22):
very welcome, Nadine.
What a pleasure.
I'm excited for what you'redoing and that we're alive.
the-sober-butterfly_3_04-27- (56:28):
Me too.
Thank you for coming.
kathy--she-her-_3_04-27 (56:30):
Nadine.
the-sober-butterfly_32_06 (56:32):
Thank you for tuning into this week's
episode of the Sober ButterflyPodcast, where we featured
Kathy's story in her journeythrough Alcoholics Anonymous
Al-Anon adult Children ofAlcoholics, debtors Anonymous
and Sex and Love, addictsAnonymous.
If you or someone you know isstruggling with substance use or
addiction, know that you are notalone, and that help is
(56:52):
available, provided in the shownotes or some resources for
support.
Kathy is so sincere.
And she wrote me after thisweek's episode to say.
If anyone needs support, pleasereach out.
You can email hello at the soberbutterfly.
com and I can put you in directcontact with Kathy.
Your feedback is incrediblyimportant to us.
(57:14):
If you enjoyed this episode,please consider leaving a five
star rating to help support theshow.
Your ratings and reviews helpothers find our podcast and join
the community.
Thank you for listening anduntil next time, take care and
stay strong.
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