Slip: Eating Disorder Recovery, Sobriety & the 'Middle Place' with Mallary Tenore Tarpley

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
the-sober-butterfly_4_07- (00:00):
Well, hello.
Hello, beautiful butterflies.
Welcome back to the SoberButterfly Podcast.
I am Nadine, your host, and I amsorry.
I just wanna open the episode byapologizing.
I'm sorry I ghosted you lastweek.
I promise I will address it atthe end of today's episode, but
I really do wanna frame today'sepisode for us because I am

(00:21):
honored to be sitting down withMallory Tanore Tarley a
journalism professor at theUniversity of Texas at Austin,
and the author of the upcomingbook, slip Life in the Middle of
Eating Disorder Recovery.
As someone who suffered from anunhealthy relationship with food
and body image, for as long as Ican remember, this conversation

(00:43):
truly hits close to home.
Together we unpack the conceptof what Mallory calls the middle
place in recovery, and that'sthe space between active illness
and full healing and challengethe binary ideas of what
recovery is supposed to looklike.
We also talk about how socialmedia, grief and perfectionism

(01:06):
shape our relationships with ourbodies.
This episode is for anyone who'sever felt like their struggle
wasn't maybe serious enough tocount, just this idea that
you're not sick enough for it toactually count.
Or for anyone who's everwondered if a slip means they're
failing, spoiler alert, it doesnot mean that you or anyone else

(01:28):
is failing if you slip.
Before we get into everything, Ijust want to issue a quick
trigger warning as this episodediscusses eating disorders, body
image, and co-occurringsubstance use.
If any of these topics aresensitive for you, please take
care of yourself whilelistening.
Let's get into it.

the-sober-butterfly_2_0 (01:52):
Mallory Ri Tarpley, welcome to the Sober
Butterfly.
How are you today?

mallary-tenore-tarpley--she (01:57):
I'm doing well.
Thank you so much for having me.
I am looking forward to this

the-sober-butterfly_2_07-07-2 (02:01):
I am looking forward to it as
well.
And we were chatting backstagebecause I feel like this
conversation is so timely.
I was telling you how, you knowon the show, I alluded to the
fact that I've struggled withdisordered eating in the past,
but I don't think I've been asforthcoming around.
Currently, like my currentpresent and still struggling

(02:21):
with disordered eating, whichconnects to body image body
dysmorphia, and just all of theways in which food and my
relationship with food have.
Changed or evolved through theyears.
So I am happy to like really getinto this conversation and I
just wanna honor you for comingon today because I really
appreciate it.

(02:41):
In learning more about yourstory and also learning more
about your upcoming book slip, Ifeel like it's a very timely
conversation in the face of justmy personal life, but also in
regard to the advent of socialmedia and all of the, the things
happening, right?
Like, that plus.
All of the different weight lossmedications on the market.
There's just so many things.

(03:02):
I want to open, actually thatwas a mouthful.
Sorry, just thanking you.
But I wanted to open to learn alittle bit more, especially if
the audience is unfamiliar withsome of your work.
I know your.
A renowned journalist.
I know that you have had yourown personal journey when it
comes to your relationship withfood, so can you give us a bit
of a, a brief of who Mallory isand the work that you do and why

(03:25):
this work is so important?
I.

mallary-tenore-tarpley--s (03:27):
Sure.
So I teach journalism at theUniversity of Texas at Austin,
and I'm a journalist by trade.
So I still write a lot ofarticles for journalistic
publications especially articlesaround eating disorders and body
image and.
That is really important to mebecause I do have lived
experience with an eatingdisorder.
So I developed anorexia when Iwas 12 years old after my mother

(03:51):
died of metastatic breast cancerand was in and out of treatment
for most of my teenage years,and that was.
Really difficult having to beaway from school and being
hospitalized and in residentialtreatment.
And I, for a long time afterleaving treatment, really felt
like I needed to achieve thegold standard of full recovery.

(04:12):
And yet I didn't really knowwhat that meant.
And so I tried to be perfect inmy recovery, and I was fearful
that if I made one wrong move orslipped just once.
That I would slide back intodangerous territory and get
sick, but that was reallyexhausting to live in these
extremes of thinking that Icould only be either fully

(04:33):
recovered or acutely sick.
And so I went off to college andI ended up relapsing in college
and struggled for many yearswith binge eating and
restricting.
Dane and was caught in thisvicious cycle that lasted well
over a decade.
But that whole time I kepttelling people that I was still
fully recovered because I wastoo ashamed to admit that I was

(04:54):
anything.
But, it wasn't until I startedworking with journalists in my
late twenties and I was trainingjournalists on how to tell
restorative narratives, whichare essentially stories that
show how people in communities.
Can make meaningful progressafter trauma, after illness.
I was helping journalists tellthese stories and it occurred to
me that it could be a reallyhelpful framework for my own

(05:16):
recovery.
And so I started to think aboutthis more and I started to come
up with this language aroundwhat I call the middle place,
which is this grace face inbetween acute sickness and full
recovery, which we can talk moreabout, but.
I started to think more aboutrather than trying to aim for
this perfectionistic ideal, afull recovery, what if I tried
to think about recovery as thismessy middle where there's

(05:38):
always potential for progress,but slips happen.
And slips don't have to begrounds for failure, but they
can be opportunities for growth.
And so I write a lot about thatin the book and I conducted
hundreds of interviews withpeople to get at a better sense
of whether or not this middleplace is populous.
And if it's.
Common.
And come to find out, it is verycommon, but we don't talk about

(06:00):
it very much in the eatingdisorder field.
And so part of what is reallyimportant to me as a writer and
as someone with livedexperience, is to help people
feel like they have the languageto describe where they're at in
their recovery and to betruthful about that and to not
feel stigma and shame aroundbeing in recovery as opposed to
being fully recovered.

the-sober-butterfly_2_07-0 (06:21):
Wow.
I am, I'm just drawing so manyparallels from what you shared.
So thank you for sharing all ofthat.
Just to back up, I wanna saysorry about losing your mom at
12.
And then coupled with being atsuch a vulnerable age, it's
never easy losing your parent.
I unfortunately lost my fatherat 19 And I always had, I would
say, a complicated veryconvoluted relationship with

(06:45):
food binging and restrictingthat cycle, that very toxic
cycle growing up as anadolescent.
But I would say at the point intime in which it became very
real for me was when I lost myfather, and that's when my
eating disorder, I've neveractually said eating disorder
for some reason, Mallory, itjust.
Feels better to say disorderedeating.
I think that's a common phrase Ihear instead of saying what it

(07:08):
calling it what it is.
A s spade for a spade.
I had an eating disorder incollege and it reared its very
ugly head at the precise timethat my father died and it was
me grasping.
For now I can see grasping forcontrol, feeling like losing him
very unexpectedly.
Just, I felt like my whole lifewas crumbling and everything
around me was changing and Ididn't like the pace in which

(07:31):
everything was changing.
And then, you know, youexperience such a profound loss
and life keeps going.
And so it was me basicallysaying, Nope, I'm going to, I
was always like a perfectionistor a perfectionist type, but the
food restriction really, reallyweird.
Its ugly head around the sametime that my drinking.
I won't say escalated per se,because I was a binge drinker up

(07:53):
until that point, especially incollege.
But it was where my drinkingchanged and I started to drink
in secrecy.
I started to drink alone andthese weren't things I'd done
before.
So it, that was another thingthat flared up for me around the
same time.
And then to

mallary-tenore-tarpley--sh (08:08):
like

the-sober-butterfly_2_ (08:08):
continue from that point, you know, I
oscillated back and forth with.
Eating disorders.
Disorders, really disorderedeating.
And then I love when youmentioned.
A slip is not necessarily, wedidn't use this exact verbiage,
but it sounds like a slip is nota failure.
It's about having the power ofthe language to actually convey

(08:31):
where you are.
And I think as someone that'sprogrammed or hardwired to think
it must be perfect or it's notgood enough, and therefore it's
void or invalid, makes me feel.
Like there's a space for me,right?
There's a space, and that canpertain to anything that
someone's working toward orstriving toward.

(08:51):
There is not necessarily aperfect way to recover or be
recovered.
So thank you for sharing all ofthat.
And I'm just curious to learnfrom you too, Mallory.
Do you find through your work orthrough your own lived
experience.
Do you find that there is anintersection between people who
suffer from substance abuse orsubstance use and disordered

(09:15):
eating slash eating disorders?

Yes.
Well, thank you so much forsharing more of your story too.
I really appreciate that, and Ithink that your story just
speaks to a really common threadthat I saw in many of the
interviews that I did withpeople with lived experience.
I.
Because I talked with manypeople who struggled with both
eating disorders and substanceabuse, and that for me was

(09:37):
really striking because itprompted me to include those
narratives in the book, but alsoto look into some of the
research around that because Ithought, hmm, there's probably
something to this if I amhearing from so many people who
have said that there is thisoverlap.
And what's interesting is thatresearch does support this

(09:58):
notion that there is a kind ofshared comorbidity between
people with eating disorders andsubstance abuse users.
And so there was this reallyinteresting study that I had
looked at from the NationalCenter on Addiction and
Substance Abuse, and theyactually found that up to 50% of
people with eating disorders,abuse, drugs, or alcohol

(10:20):
compared with 9% of the generalpopulation.
And they found that substanceabuse appears to be highest
among people who experiencebinge eating during their eating
disorder.
And so I think there's a fewdifferent reasons for this high
comorbidity, but some people usedrugs or alcohol to
self-medicate as we know, and tokind of escape the agony of

(10:41):
their eating disorder.
Then other times people will usesubstances that suppress
appetite, which sets this reallyharmful cycle in motion.
And in that case, foodrestriction increases someone's
vulnerability to taking thesubstance, and then the
substance in turn can decreaseappetite.
So that results in greater foodrestriction and weight loss.

(11:02):
And so.
There's a lot of overlap here,and I don't think we have that
many conversations about theoverlap, and I think it's really
important to recognize that manypeople struggle with both, and I
think we need to be having moreconversations about that.

the-sober-butterfly (11:18):
Absolutely, and I mean like I know that
you're a professor at auniversity, so that's a point in
time where I.
I felt like my eating disorderwas probably at its worst, and
it's interesting as wellbecause.
My friends and I, once again, wewere never calling it an eating
disordered disorder or evendisordered eating.
It was just, I want to present acer certain way.

(11:40):
I wanna look a certain way, andI'm not sure if you're familiar
with the term Mallory, drunkAuryxia or if it's more of like
a buzz term.
I know it's not a medical term.
However, drunk Auryxia issomething that I recognize I
very much struggled with and notjust myself.
I won't speak for every friend Ihad, but a lot of young women.
In my circle of friends, wewould basically restrict

(12:02):
ourselves all day because wewanted to wear the crop top.
We wanted to look a certain way,and I remember, and I hope this
is not triggering for somepeoples, but I distinctly
remember, I.
Like knowing I did a good enoughjob of restricting myself
because I could feel the shot,the alcohol, like whatever it
was, like the potency, literallygoing down my esophagus.

(12:24):
Like that was how I knew, I didit.
Okay, great.
I'm gonna be skinny and I'mgonna black out faster.
And that was usually the, thetwo goals I had in mind.
Like I wanted to look theskinniest as possible and I
wanted to get the drunkest aspossible.
And that just.
That constant cycle.
I'm just thinking back to a how,how do people survive that?
But to your point, I just don'tthink that we talk.

(12:45):
As openly about, you know, thisas a society, but then even
within my inner circle, evenamongst my friends, like, it was
not something that we blatantlyever discussed, but it was
something that we were oftendoing together.
It was this idea of likecamaraderie and community, which
was very toxic around bonding.
Hey, I'm gonna get drunk fasterthan you because I haven't eaten
anything today.

(13:06):
So it's just a really.
Sad place to be and I'm glad I'mnot there anymore.
And I, I, I will say that sincegetting sober four years ago, I
have found that my disorderedeating or eating disorder has
taken on.
I, I'm not recovered, I'll behonest.
So, you know, speaking of thatmiddle ground, like I'm not

(13:27):
fully recovered.
I'm still very much obsessedwith what I eat.
I'm not counting calories, I'mnot as extreme as I have been.
I'm not over exercising.
That's something else I would dowhere if I did eat, I would like
quote, punish myself by overexercising to compensate.
Like I'm not doing those things,but it's something that.
I don't know what a normal brainor how it works because I'm only

(13:49):
living in this vessel.
But every day, Mallory, I wakeup thinking about food or
thinking about like what I'mgonna eat today.
And I, that might be normal, butI think there's something
unhealthy or insidious about it.
As someone who has struggledwith food and my relationship
with food and my body image,I'm, I think I'm fearful.
I think I'm afraid of foodsometimes.
I'm afraid that I don't trustmyself enough.

(14:13):
I trust my body enough to dowhat it needs to do in order to
not gain weight like I'm af.
I'm afraid of gaining weight,and that's really sad to say.
As a 34-year-old who has prettymuch been the same weight for
the last 10 to 12 years, I don'teven have to get on the scale to
check.
I can just look at myself andcheck.
So I'm saying a lot.
Is that something that otherpeople constantly live with when

(14:34):
you refer to this middle groundor this space in which we're not
quite.
At the pinnacle, at Maslow's,top of the pyramid, I'm
self-actualized and everything'sgreat, and I never have to worry
about this again.
Like what do you find, whatsorts of things are people
saying in regards to not fullybeing there, but like maybe
they're working on it or isthere a final destination?

(14:54):
Is there a final place ofrecovered, so to speak?

Yeah.
It's such an importantconversation and to have, and I
think that there certainly arepeople who do consider
themselves to be fullyrecovered, and I include their
perspectives in the book.
So I don't wanna discredit theirexperiences because for many,
they believe that they are overtheir eating disorder.
One thing that was especiallyinteresting is that in some

(15:20):
cases, I interviewed people whoat the beginning of the
conversation said, well, I'mfully recovered.
But then as we delve deeper intothis concept of the middle
place, they came away thinking,well, maybe I'm actually in the
middle place, and maybe that'snot such a bad place.
To be because they didn'tnecessarily have any other
language to describe theirrecovery other than this notion

(15:42):
that they were fully recovered.
And so for me, I think that oneof the sort of challenges is
that we are really limitedsometimes in our definitions of
what full recovery means.
And so.
Sometimes if you look at theresearch, you'll find that there
are almost as many definitionsof full recovery from an eating
disorder as there are studiesabout it, and that really

(16:04):
complicates matters.
And it's no wonder that peoplewith lived experience have
questions around what does itmean to even be fully recovered.
And in some of these cases,definitions of full recovery are
limited to BMI, for instance.
So ba body mass index.
Other times they are sort oflooking just.
At the elimination of eatingdisorder behaviors.

(16:27):
But one of the aspects that issometimes left out of
definitions of full recovery isthe cognitive aspects.
So it gets at what you arespeaking to, which is those
thoughts and those ruminationsaround food and weight and body
size.
And those can be really thehardest things to shake in
recovery.
And I think many of us who.

(16:47):
We this middle place may notnecessarily be exhibiting
behaviors as we once were.
Maybe we still have somelingering behaviors, but they're
not necessarily ones that wouldland us in the hospital or that
would require us to needcritical care.
But.
Many times it's those thoughts,right?
That just linger and thatcontinue to be there.

(17:09):
And those can be reallydifficult to shake when you have
lived with an eating disorderfor most of your life.
And I think that that is part ofwhat makes recovery so
challenging.
I think too, it is a really hardsociety to recover into.
So one of the doctors Iinterviewed introduced me to
this concept called normativediscontent, which is just a

(17:30):
fancy term to describe this.
or the series of words thatresearchers came up with to
basically describe the fact thatin our society, the vast
majority of men and women havesome level of discontent with
their body to the point whereit's normal.
And so to think that we're goingto recover from our eating
disorder and never have a badbody image day or never have a

(17:51):
disordered thought is prettyunrealistic.
Stick in our society.
And so I think we need to remindourselves of that and give
ourselves grace recognizing thatwe don't always have to love our
body.
It's great if we do, but we maynot get to that point where we
ever love our body, but maybe wecan come to appreciate our body.
Maybe we can come to.
of neutralize food and think ofit as fuel as opposed to

(18:14):
thinking of it as somethingthat's either good or bad.
And so I think we need to bemindful of that, but also we
need to be thinking about how dowe continue to find ways to
progress in the middle place?
Because I think that sometimesit's tricky living in this.
Space because many people think,oh, well, you're just settling
for Stagnance in the middleplace, and that's not the case,

(18:36):
right?
I think many of us in thismiddle place are struggling to
some degree, but we wannacontinue to move forward.
And so I think that part of thatprocess of moving forward is
recognizing when those.
Thoughts creep up, but alsorecognizing when you make a
choice in service of recovery.
So you

Mm.

mallary-tenore-tarpley (18:54):
thought, you recognize it, but you don't
let that dictate your behavior.

Right.

okay, I am going to still eat the ice
cream that I want to eat, evenif I feel that I shouldn't.
And if you end up having thethought, and it does lead to a
disordered behavior, recognizingthat, okay, I had a slip, but
that doesn't mean that I need tolet that turn into a slide.
Right.
And I

Right.

mallary-tenore-tarpley-- (19:14):
that's where that perfectionistic
thinking comes in, where youthink, well, I had one drink, so
I might as well just drink thewhole bottle.

All or nothing.
Mm-hmm.

right.

Black and white thinking.

mallary-tenore-tarpley--she- (19:24):
so might as well just eat the whole
carton.
And I think that's where we canget into a, a sticky situation.
And so I think part of recoveryis acknowledging the slip.
Recognizing it, not stigmatizingit, not demonizing it, and
saying, okay, I.
Like, I had this slip today.
Maybe I did eat most of thecarton of the ice cream, but
that doesn't mean I have torestrict the whole next day.
It

Yeah.

back on track.
And

Yeah.

mallary-tenore-tarpley--she-h (19:47):
a lot of this is about giving
ourselves grace in this verymessy and ongoing recovery
process.

I love that so much.
Give yourself grace that'sapplicable to so much, so much
life.
I'm curious to learn from you,Mallory, what is the inclusivity
like in the eating disorderrealm?
And I ask that question becauseI feel so often that, and this
can apply for sobriety as well.
If you don't present a certainway, right, if, and there's all

(20:14):
these images, right?
Misconceptions and notanecdotes.
What am I looking for right now?
Sorry, archetypes.
There are all of thesearchetypes around like.
What, for example, I know a lotabout drinking, so like what the
alcoholic looks like.
Brown paperback, losing yourwife and kids, right?
Like a point of no return.

(20:35):
I, I'm curious to learn whatdoes that, how does that extend
itself?
I.
When it comes to eatingdisorders, because so often I
think we think of BMI, like youmentioned before, like very
physical indicators, which, youknow, sometimes yes they can be
telling and that's great intelfor you to seek help and go seek
that professional help and, andheal or start that healing

(20:57):
process.
But what about the person whodoesn't have an unhealthy BMI or
a person who may actually.
Can be considered overweightwhen it comes to their BMI, but
yet they're still struggling.
So like do you find that thereis limited or less inclusivity
around eating disorders in thethat community?
And is there work to be done orcan we do anything to help those

(21:19):
who are suffering but may notpresent as though they are
suffering?

Yes.
I think that it's such animportant question because there
are so many misconceptionsaround who does and doesn't
struggle with eating disorders,and that's part of why I didn't
want my own book to be justabout my own story because in
many ways I do fit thatstereotypical mold of someone
with an eating disorder and thatI am white, I identify as
female.
I live in a smaller body, I'mmiddle to upper class.

(21:46):
And I wanted to be able to showthat people of all different
genders and ages and races andethnicities struggle with eating
disorders.
And yet we know that because ofa lack of awareness around
eating disorders, many peoplewho don't fit that stereotypical
mold are not necessarily gettingthe treatment that they need.
There's research to supportthat, and part of this speaks to

(22:08):
a larger systemic issue aroundthe lack of medical training on
eating disorders.
So research shows that doctorsget between zero and two hours
of training on eating disorders,which is mind-boggling.

What.

Right.
When you consider the fact that30 million Americans will have
an eating disorder in theirlifetime, it seems that we
should really be talking a lotmore about eating disorders in
med.
Schools, and yet we're not.
So much more of the emphasis ison obesity.
And so because of that, thereare many people who try to seek
treatment and they are deniedtreatment or they're told that

(22:43):
they don't have a problembecause to your point, they may
be in a larger body or maybethey're not critically
underweight.
There's this wholeclassification of eating
disorders and it's calledatypical anorexia.
It's essentially where someonemeets all of the diagnostic
criteria for anorexia nervosa,but they're not clinically
underweight.
And

I see.

that there are some people who
severely restrict and theyexperience many harmful physical
side effects because of that.
But due to genetics and otherfactors, they don't end up
losing weight to the point wherethey are severely underweight.
And yet we know that theircondition is just as serious in
many cases, if not

you.

Right.
And so often those people justtake so much longer to actually
be able to get the help thatthey need.
And I talked with many peoplewho said that they were either
denied treatment or couldn't getit, and I think that within the
eating disorder field, there'sso much more awareness around
this now, and there's.
So many conversations happeningin eating disorder conferences

(23:44):
and in research around the needto really broaden people's scope
of understanding around eatingdisorders.
And so I think the field itselfis doing a lot of really
important work to advance careand to advance awareness.
But I think that the populationat large and the medical
community at large still has somuch to learn, and I think we

(24:06):
need to get to the point ideallywhere everyone who needs help
for an eating disorder can getit and is

Yes.

mallary-tenore-tarpley (24:14):
against.
But I think we still have areally long way to go before we
get to that point.

Yeah, I imagine as someone who may
seek help.
And go to like a medicalprofessional, like a doctor and
say, Hey, I'm struggling.
And then the doctor side eyeingthem or looking at them
strangely because they don'tpresent in that way can be
really defeating and lifethreatening.
And even myself and likepreparing for this conversation,

all

a lot of the things I was thinking
about

about.

was as it pertains to myself as a
woman.
And then this audience that wehave at the Super Butterfly are
mostly women, but men also verymuch suffer if not.
Maybe more detrimentally becauseit's just not something that we
think of when we think of boysor men struggling with eating
disorders.
And that stigma very much livesin that sense of belonging to a

(25:07):
community as well.
So I'm actually thinking backto, I won't name anyone, but
like I'm thinking back to an exwho I think really did struggle
with eating.
And that's not something that weever talked about because.
They didn't feel comfortable andit was, you know, understandably
so.
Thank you for mentioning that.
I would love to learn.
Is eating, having an eatingdisorder, is that on a spectrum

(25:27):
as well?
Like alcohol use disorder is ona spectrum.
And when you refer to thatmiddle place would you say that
is falling on that spectrum?
I'm just trying to learn fromsomeone who's not as well versed
when it comes to the, like themedical language around.
What an eating disorder is andhow it's classified.
Is it a physical disorder?
Is it mental?
Is it both?
Because you know, we are tellingourselves that we don't need to

(25:48):
eat even though we have accessto food or whatever it may be.
Not eat is one example.
So yeah.
How would you define it forlisteners at home and for
myself?

Yeah, so it is both a physical and a
mental disorder.
And so those two things go handin hand and often the physical
symptoms will exacerbate thedisordered thoughts.
And then the disordered thoughtslead to disordered behaviors,
which then impact our physicalhealth.
And so it's all really closelyinterwoven.

(26:17):
We also know that there are manybrain-based alterations that
occur when someone has an eatingdisorder.
And so around, especially aroundanorexia, there's been a lot of
research looking at what happensto the brain when someone
restricts their food intake.
And so there's a lot of actualbrain shrinkage that can happen.
With

Really.

in particular.
Yes.
And it's fascinating to look atthe research.
It can also be a little bitnerve wracking to look at it,
but.
There is a lot of research alsoshowing that once someone does
restore their weight and theyare nutritionally rehabilitated,
then that shrinkage normalizes.
But that shrinkage can causeloss of brain cells and a lack

(27:00):
of connection between them.
And so there's.
So much at play there.
And I think many people thinkthat eating disorders are simply
a choice.
And I remember family membersand others would say, why can't
you just eat Mallory?
Right?
Or just

That's so.

a scale.
It's not helpful at all.
And I mean, back then when I wasreally.
Struggling in the late 1990s,there was so little
understanding of eatingdisorders and we really didn't
know about the neurobiology ofthem.
We didn't know that they werebrain disorders.
And scientists actually now havegotten to the point where they
do call them brain disordersjust because of how much they

(27:36):
impact the brain.
And so I think that in learningmore about that research, it's.
Certainly gave me empathy for myyounger self because it helped
me to understand why I soquickly got stuck in these
cognitive ruts and why it was sohard to get out of them because
there are these factors at play.
Also, there are geneticcomponents to eating disorders,
and so there are certain aspectsof the eating disorder that.

(27:59):
Maybe we don't have control overin terms of just the development
of the eating disorder.
And certainly genetics alonedon't determine whether or not
someone will develop an eatingdisorder.
There are genetic risk factors,but there's also genetic
protective factors.
And then we have environmentalrisk factors, environmental
protective factors but geneticscan play into it.
And so these eating disordersare very complicated and I think

(28:23):
that we do ourselves adisservice if we think about
them.
As only being disorders that areabout losing weight because
they're about so much more thanthat.
And they're about so much morethan food at the end of the day.
Right.
And so I think we need to reallyrecognize that as we think about
the totality of eating disordersand the various ways in which
eating disorders can take shape.

Thank you for sharing that.

This is so helpful.
I think specific to eatingdisorders, there is sort of this
double entendre, so to speak,where eating disorders, we know
today in 2025, we shouldn't havean eating disorder.
I shouldn't say we shouldn'thave we.
We don't want to encourage folksto have eating disorders.
However, something I touched onbefore, mass media, all of the

(29:12):
images that are flooding ourtimelines, flooding just every.
Aspect of our schema that makeup how we see the world.
Skinny is in it.
It goes through like there'sdifferent fads and like we went
through the Kardashian curvyphase, whatever it may be, the
BBLs.
But now even they, you know,with their enlarged buttocks
have the tiniest teeniest waistand everyone's skinny, whether

(29:36):
it's naturally or unhealthily orthrough ozempic or beta blockers
or whatever it may be through.
Many means it, it feels like weare going through, for me as a
millennial girl, it feels like asecond coming.
Like I feel like we're kind ofregressing back to the late
1990s, early two thousands.

(29:57):
When you mentioned the latenineties, I immediately thought
Ali McBeal and just like theplethora of different eating
disorders on that show and justlike, anyway, I feel like we're
kind of regressing back to that,but yet it's sort of.
From on the tails of bodypositivity, like we're like, oh,
we celebrate our body and ourdifferences and being in
different shapes and sizes.

(30:18):
But yet now the standard again,seems to be like skinny is in
so.
I guess my question to you ishow do you feel, first of all,
about just the ways in which weare seeing all of these
different projections ofthinness and how it's virtue
signaling in a way, like notexplicitly stated, but it very
much is the underlying messageit feels like.

(30:39):
So my question is, yeah, whatare your sentiments around that?
And then also how can we protectourselves?
I'm a 34-year-old woman and I'mlike, help me, Mallory.
How do I protect myself from, Iunderstand that this is not
always healthy or real, but atthe same time I can't help.
It's still sinking or seepinginto my psyche, my subconscious,

(31:00):
and then I'm even thinking aboutyounger people.
How do they protect themselves?
Like so yeah, any thoughtsaround this and like how we can
actually maybe create differentparameters to protect our mental
health and our peace.

Yes.
So I do think that we have S SWin this other direction where
for a while we were talking alot about body positivity and
loving our bodies, and now wehave really started talking so
much more about just the beautyof being skinny and why that's
important.
And I think that that has reallyexacerbated.

(31:34):
Issues for people with eatingdisorders.
And it does scare me in someways when I think about just how
easy it can be to get theseweight loss drugs.
I don't wanna demonize thembecause I know GLP ones can be
helpful for some individuals,and particularly those with
diabetes.
So I never wanna put people downfor taking them.
But I think at the same time,when we consider just the lack

(31:56):
of medical training aroundeating disorders.
And we think about how peoplewho are either predisposed to
having an eating disorder oof,or who may have had one in the
past or who still have onethey're in a much riskier
situation if they take thesedrugs.
And I think that there needs tobe greater awareness around
that.
There's so much noise aroundOzempic and Manjaro and all of

(32:20):
these different drugs, and Ican't even drive in the car
anymore without hearing an adfor some of these weight loss

I know.

very quickly turned them down because
I admittedly don't want my sevenand 9-year-old to just be
bombarded with this messagingbecause I think that you're
right, it does tend to sink inand it's so hard to avoid it,
and.
I hope that rather than talkingin these extremes of you either
love your body or you've got tobe on these weight loss drugs, I

(32:48):
think we need to find some sortof middle ground.
I like to think about our bodiesas being not some ornament, but
more of an instrument.
And that's a phrase that I oftenwill repeat to myself.
The body is not an ornament,it's an instrument.

like that.

get through my day.
And

Mm-hmm.

I think that's important.
Just sort of thinking about howdo we counteract.
Some of these messages that maybe really toxic for us,
particularly if we've struggledwith eating disorders or
disordered eating, and how do wecounteract that with a different
message?
And I also try really hard notto look at.

Mm-hmm.

That people find to still post this
type of content.
I, especially on Instagram, I'vereally tried to tailor my feed
around people who are eatingdisorder specialists who believe
in health at every size and whoare pro recovery.
And so I've had to work hard atfinding those people, I liking
their posts and following them.
And then I follow a lot ofauthors, so I'm really strategic

(33:47):
about who I follow and how Iinteract with others on that.
Platform because I know that theminute I start looking up
anything around ozempic ordisordered eating, I'm going to
get flooded with posts aboutthat.
And so I think we need to bereally mindful of just the ways
in which this content reaches uswhen we aren't even necessarily
seeking it out.

(34:09):
Lastly, I will just say too thatyears ago there were all these
different forums on Tumblr andother

I

that were.
Yes, like the

Oh.

mallary-tenore-tarple (34:17):
anorexia, the pro bulimia forums, and what
was detrimental about thoseamong so many things was the
fact that they were reallycatering toward people with
eating disorders.
And they were a place where youcould go to get tips on how to
be better at your eatingdisorder.

Yeah.

yeah,

Wait, can I say one thing, Mallory?
At least with those.
On the, the Tumblr post and allof that craziness.
At least they were very like,open, like it was transparent.
Like I, I'm gonna tell yousomething toxic.
I think what's inherently scaryand dangerous about social media
and like skinny talk, which yes,it's been banned, but like
they're not, it's a lot morecraftier, it's a lot more

(34:57):
subtle.
And I think that makes it moreinsidious and more scary because
if I'm a young person, even asan adult, I'm like.
Oh, I'm, I'm, you have a call toaction.
I'm leaning in like, oh, whatare you talking about?
You're just, you know, paradingaround your room, little outfit.
But then you're really tellingme how skinny is your favorite
accessory, like, you know, andthat, that's the end message.
So anyway, I just wanted to saythat like, at least with those

(35:18):
early, like mid to 20 twothousands, like they were very
upfront about, I'm telling yousomething that you should not be
listening to, but like takenotes versus now it's like
presented in a very skillful,deceptive way.

Yes, I think you're absolutely right
and I.
Totally agree because I thinkthat with those forums, it was
somewhat of a more nicheaudience, and then it was really
specifically for people witheating disorders and they were
still incredibly pernicious.
But I think what's reallyharmful about these trends that
we're seeing on social mediaplatforms is that they are
really being marketed to justthe masses.

(35:54):
And so they are sort of peoplewho are saying, well, this is
not a diet, because I think theword diet has become somewhat of
a dirty word and.
Yes.
And many people will say, well,you can eat anything you want.
But then there's the caveat thatyes, you can eat pizza, but you
should only have half a slice asopposed to two slices.
Or you can have ice cream, butyou should only allow yourself

(36:14):
two bites.
Right?
And so it's this really justconflicting messaging and a lot
of people are sharing thismessaging around.
The guise of wellness.
Right.
And I think wellness has becomesomewhat of this catchphrase and
a little bit of a trap becausepeople think, well, I'm just
looking at this content becauseit's going to help me be

(36:35):
healthier.
It's going to contribute to mywellbeing.
Not recognizing that it's verymuch laced with diet, culture
and fat

Yes, yes.

and that's incredibly toxic.

the-sober-butterfly_3_07-07- (36:45):
so glad you mentioned that
specifically that nothing grindsmy gears more because I feel
like I need to do a better jobof curating my feed better.
And what I mean by that issimilar to what you mentioned,
like following post or accountsthat are more aligned with what
I want to be and representbecause I still follow the
models.
I still follow like some ofthese girlies who let's be real,

(37:07):
they'll be like this is what Ieat in a day.
And it's like, no, but no, youdon't like, so like it's, it's
like, yes.
Like I've seen the ones whereit's like, yeah, half, half a
slice pizza.
But what makes me more upsetactually, it is infuriating and
I get indignant is when peopleare like, oh yeah, I eat this
and this and that.
And it's like carb, carb, carb,carb, carb, fat, fat, fat.

(37:28):
Just sugar, sugar, sugar.
And it's like, but you don't eatthat.
Like, we didn't get to actuallysee you eat that.
Like you're just putting this onto like, I don't know, portray
this essence of like effortless,skinny.
And then that drives me crazy.
'cause I feel like that hasmixed messaging as well.
Like, you know, you think youcan just eat that and how come I
can't eat that and still be 110pounds?
I'm really confused at five 11.
But just doesn't add, the mathis not mapping.

No, exactly, and I feel like what we
eat is our business.
We don't need to be touting thaton social media.
We don't need to be knowing whatother people are eating that is
not for other people to knowabout.
At least not in a public space.
And so I don't think that thoseconversations are productive in
any sort of way.

They don't help.
It's like every body isdifferent, right?
Everyone has a different budget,diet.
All of the things, like when Isay diet, not like in the
restrictive way, like this is alifestyle thing.
I'm.
To go back, I would love tolearn from you, Mallory.
A couple of things.
One being how can someonerecognize, or if they're
listening to this conversationtoday and they're like, I am

(38:32):
hearing some things, I.
Should I be concerned?
Could you kind of break down forus, like how can someone maybe
start to pay attention to anysigns or symptoms that they are
struggling with an eatingdisorder and just for once and
for all, can we say, is there adifference between eating
disorder and disordered eating?
Like, can I say that I strugglewith disorder eating and is that

(38:53):
the same thing as saying I havean eating disorder or I'm
working in that middle groundwith my eating disorder?
So yeah.
What are your thoughts aroundthat?

Yeah, so I mean, I think that a lot of
people who say they strugglewith disordered eating, in fact
do have eating disorders, butthey are in denial

sounds nicer.
Why does it sound nicer?
Why does it.

Yes, I know.
And I mean, there's this phrasethat in the eating disorder
field called sick enough, and itis reflective of this book by
Dr.
Jennifer Guarani and it's, it'sbasically talks about how many
people with eating disordersdon't believe they're sick
enough to get care or treatment.
And I think many people whostruggle with disordered eating

(39:35):
have that same feeling wherethey think, well, I'm not sick
enough to actually qualify ashaving an eating disorder.
Or going back to what we talkedabout earlier, I don't look the
part of someone with an eating

I.
You know?

mallary-tenore-tar (39:46):
underweight, so I don't have an eating
disorder.
And so there are many people whogo throughout their lives who
probably would be diagnosed withan eating disorder if they
actually sought help, but theyjust believe that it's
disordered eating, and so theydon't.
There are differences betweeneating disorders and disordered
eating.
So sometimes people may havedisordered eating habits where

(40:08):
maybe they occasionally binge onfood and it feels very out of
control, but it's not somethingthat is happening multiple times
a week.
It's just something that happensoccasionally.
for instance, maybe someone hasa tendency to restrict when they
are in a stressful situation,but it's not something that is
recurring and they don't havedisordered thoughts around it.

(40:30):
And so sometimes when thesedisordered behaviors happen but
they're not part of sort of thisongoing set of behaviors, then
it may be that there are more inthat camp of people who have
disordered eating because thereare.
Specific criteria for actuallyhaving a diagnosed eating
disorder.

(40:51):
But that being said, I reallydon't like getting caught up in
labels because I think that somany people, right, to your
point, struggle with disorderedeating and whether it's
disordered eating or an eatingdisorder, if it feels like it's
taking over a lot of time andmental.
Space than it is something thatis deserving of treatment,

(41:11):
right?
Or deserving of help.
And so I think so many peoplestruggle silently and just never
ask for that help.
And so I would say for thoselisteners who are feeling like
they are struggling in some way,shape or form with their body
image, with their eatingdisordered thoughts or
behaviors.
I would say try to seek help forthat.
And help is a very broad term,right?

(41:33):
I think that help could besometimes just talking with a
spouse or partner or friend andbeing able to actually have a
conversation about thesebehaviors because we know that
I.
Our secrets keep us stuck andthey often keep us sick.
The more we can really talk withpeople who we trust and can
confide in about what we'restruggling with, I think the
better.
In some cases it may mean right,trying to see an eating disorder

(41:56):
specialist or a dietician, I.
I still see a therapist and adietician because that's
important to me to try tomaintain recovery knowing that
I'm not fully recovered.
And so I think that trying toseek that help can be important.
One of the things too is justnoticing if you have changes.
In just your desire to socializewith people.

(42:17):
Because very often eatingdisorders lead to isolation.
They lead to just people notwanting to socialize, not
wanting to eat in public.
And so I think we don't wannaignore those warning signs
because we know from researchthat the earlier someone
receives treatment, the betterthe prognosis will be long term.
And I think, although I talkabout the middle place as being

(42:37):
this space in between acutesickness and full recovery, I
think it's also an apt term forthis.
Space in between a trigger andone's dissent into an eating
disorder.
And that middle place is areally precarious place that can
often get overlooked becausepeople are either in denial that
they have a problem or othersaren't saying anything and

(42:57):
recognizing it.
And that's the space where wereally need to intervene and try
to get ourselves help or helpothers if we see that they're in
this space where they seem to bedeveloping disordered behaviors.

Wow.
It's the exact same blueprintfor me, recognizing that I had a
problem with alcohol wrestlingbetween the semantics of
language.
Am I an alcoholic?
Am I just agreeing?
Area drinker.
It's like, I need help, butlike, do you need help?
Yes, I need help.
And I love that you said helpcomes in various forms.

(43:30):
I agree with that.
It sometimes can be a bitdaunting and we overwhelm
ourselves just thinking aboutthe next step of like getting
help.
And it's like, it legitimatelycould be turning to your spouse
or turning to your best friendand saying, I don't, I don't
know how I'm feeling, butsomething.
I need to talk to you aboutthis.
Like, I'm, I'm feeling a littlebit off, or is this normal?
Asking que questions, gettingcurious.

(43:52):
Like, don't Google, do I have aeating disorder again?
Please don't ever do that.
Don't Google, am I an alcoholic?
You're, you're going to be ledastray.
Just focus on only, you know,it's like this inner knowing.
That's how I knew it was time.
I, I stayed stuck for so long,just like trying to figure it
out.
Like, am I sick enough to gethelp or no, that's the wrong

(44:13):
mindset.
It's just like, do you feel likesomething is off?
Is it this thing that is sortof, compete, competing?
Like is it something that itfeels all consuming in some
regards or this obsessivenature?
Like the compulsion is, is methinking about, you know, my
next drink or thinking about,oh, I ate that yesterday, so
today I have to be extra good.

(44:34):
And like that part isexhausting.
What part, and this can be foryou, Mallory, or for some of the
clients that you've worked withor people you've interviewed, I
shouldn't say clients, peoplethat you've spoken with to
interview for your book slip.
What do you find?
Either personally or anecdotallyhas been the hardest part of

(44:55):
seeking recovery for people?

Yeah, so think one of the hardest
parts is that we all developedan eating disorder because at
one point in time we thoughtthat it served a purpose.
So for me, I.
really fell into my eatingdisorder after my mother died
because I felt so far away fromher when she died.
And I remember wanting to justfeel closer to her.

(45:21):
And I thought that if I stayedthe same size I was when she was
alive, that maybe I could becloser to her.
And so for me it was never abouttrying to be skinny, but really
about trying to stay small andsafe.
And I couldn't control whathappened to my mother's body
when she got.
Cancer, but I could control whatI put into mine.

(45:43):
And so I thought that it wouldgive me some semblance of
control, thought it would helpme feel closer to my mother.
And for a brief time it did.
But ultimately, the eatingdisorder left me feeling wildly
out of control and left mefeeling farther away than ever
from my mother.
And.
A big part of my recovery wasreally unpacking the origins of

(46:03):
the eating disorder becausethere were so many different
factors at play.
I had also taken a health classwhere we were learning about
good foods and quote unquote badfoods, and we were weighed in
front of the class and

No,

was not unheard of at the time.

you are weighed publicly.

Yes.
Yeah.
It was really

step on the scale.
You're up next.
Mal what?
And people step on the scale.

Yes.
It was really daunting, even forme as a child who was in a
smaller body.
I felt mortified just doing thatin a public

Yeah.

And yeah, I mean, even today there
are.
It's called BMI report cardswhere BMI is measured among
children in school still

Really

yes,

that feels like an antiquated
practice.

in the

What

it.
Yeah, it's, it's wild and Imean, there are so many
potential

also BMI is like, I wouldn't say
it's, it's, it's a.
It's a stat, it's a data point,but it's also racist Inherently.
Like my BMI is not going tolike, there have been points in
time where my BMI has fallen outof range and I'm not overweight.
I'm not ob ob, obese, but itlooked like it because of my
bone density.
I'm a tall girl on five 11 likeyou, all of the things.
So anyway, that's crazy thatthere's report cards for BMI or

(47:27):
included on your report cardtoday.

Yeah, it's a, it's a very flawed
measure and it is racist, likeyou said, and yeah, it's just
mind boggling that that stillhappens today, even all these
years later, but.
For me, really trying to unpackthe origins of the eating
disorder was an important partof my recovery, and I needed to
question what did my eatingdisorder give me, or what did I

(47:51):
think it would give me and whatdid it ultimately take away?
And then how can I find otherways of giving myself those
things that I thought thatdisorder would give me?
So how can I find ways to becloser to my mother that don't
involve food restriction?
How do I try to.
Seek some control in other waysthat don't involve obsessive

(48:14):
exercising.
And so really trying to untangleall of that and recovery was
important.
And in doing so, I was able toreally think about the fact that
the eating disorder.
Was not a solution to theproblem, but was in fact the
problem itself.
And I think once we can arriveat that understanding, that's

(48:34):
incredibly important.
And the more we can have theselittle aha moments, the more we
can begin to see ourselvesoutside of the eating disorder.
So for so long I believed that Iwas defined by my disorder and I
wanted nothing more than to bethe sickest anorexic.
And it's heartbreaking to thinkback on that period of my life.

(48:55):
But in recovery, I began toreally see the other parts of my
identity.
I.
that's something I still have toalways remind myself of, because
if I think of my identity as apie, there's so many slices to
that pie.
And it felt like years ago thewhole pie was taken up by
anorexia, and now it's still aslice of the pie.
I would be lying if I said itwasn't right, because it's still

(49:16):
something I can contend with.
But there's so many otherslices.
Right.
I'm a professor, I'm a mother,I'm a writer, I'm all these
other things, a friend, adaughter.
And so being able to connectwith those other parts of your
identity, I think can be areally helpful part of the
recovery process.
But all those things I mentionedtakes so much work and it's not

(49:37):
easy to recover.
And I think that we have torecognize that and also
recognize that it's somethingthat we just have to always work
at.
At least that's been the casefor me.

Winding down here.
I love everything you shared.
How do you continue recoveringafter a slip as opposed to
sliding, going spiral?
I.
I'm crashing out back to thebeginning.

Yes.
So important aspect of this isreally trying to recognize the
slip and tell someone about it.
That can seem super scarybecause it's much easier to just
stay silent about the slips.
But I have found when I'm.
Silent about them, then I end upslipping more.
And so I think instead, if wecan talk to someone we trust

(50:25):
about the slip and say, okay,this thing happened.
I don't feel great about it, butI don't wanna let it derail me.
And so what can I dodifferently?
Or Here's what I'm thinking ofdoing differently.
And so I think we need to alsorecognize that slips are part of
the recovery process.
I think about this word slip as.

(50:47):
Suggesting movement because youcan't slip if you're standing
still.
And so I think we need toacknowledge that we often are
trying to move forward and aspart of that, naturally we're
going to fall.
And so recognizing that that'snot a failure, that every falter
doesn't have to be a failure isreally important.
And that has been huge in termsof just.

(51:09):
Helping me to reframe mythinking around what it means to
slip.
And so I think if we canacknowledge that, that is going
to help us to get back up fasterand to recognize, okay, just to
slip, but I don't need to slide.
Let me keep moving forward.
And so if you find though thatyou keep slipping, even if
you're trying not to stigmatizethose slips.

(51:31):
That's often an indication thatyou might need to have more

Hmm.

And try to seek maybe professional
help, which sounds again scary,but even being able to talk to a
therapist or a dietician thatcan help so that those slips
don't turn into a relapse ordon't make you sort of fall into
a really bad space where you'reacutely sick again.

I really appreciate that, and it
seems, once again, this isapplicable for anything that
we're working at.
It's the ING, right?
It's the Jaron, it's the presentprogressive.
It's something ongoingrecovered.
Is boring.
Boring.
It's done.
It's like checked

Yes.

like, it's like that is like, there's
nothing else to be done andthere's always something.
I think an act of being alive istaking action and continually
striving and so I reallyappreciate that and I find that
is so relevant and I resonatewith that when it comes to my.
Recovery as it pertains toalcohol.
But in having this conversation,I'll be honest, Mallory, I'm

(52:28):
recognizing that I can do morework.
I do have a therapist.
I'm currently in therapy.
I probably will always be intherapy, but it's something that
I avoid talking about,

about.

anytime I'm avoiding something, it's
because it's, it's uncomfortableand that that is a sign that
there's something there that Ishoot.

there that I should

Work on or continue to work toward.
And I think for me, even whenyou shared, like, I don't know
why you reference this rightnow, but I know you mentioned
you know your mom and you havetwo and it's just say that's why
you referenced it.
You said being pregnant.
And immediately the back of mymind, it's like a afterthought
or an underlying unconsciousthought where it's like.
I would love to have childrenone day, Mallory, but I'm afraid

(53:10):
of being pregnant because I'mafraid of gaining weight.
Like stuff like that.
Like that is just like thenatural chain of logic.
And so I just wanted to saylike, clearly I'm someone who
will always, I don't wanna sayWill always, but I'm still
plagued with these thoughts.
I check myself, I, I, I'm not

I, I,

on them all the time, but like,
it's something that I thinkabout often.
So.

yes.
Yeah.
And I think pregnancy is areally vulnerable time because
anytime we go through atransition where our bodies are
changing, it can conjure upreally difficult thoughts and
can lead us.
To engage in behaviors thatmaybe we had abandoned, but
we've suddenly returned to.
And so I have a whole chapter onpregnancy

Oh.

terms of what it was like for me, but
also other people.
And yeah, for me, just briefly,pregnancy itself was really
beautiful and I really took careof my body and fueled it in ways
that I never had before.
But but postpartum was actuallyunexpectedly difficult and I
found myself trapped in thiscycle of.
Pumping pretty compulsively as away to burn calories.

(54:14):
And it was lauded as me justbeing this really amazing
supplier of milk for my childrenwhen in fact, I at one point
donated 10 gallons of breastmilk to a local milk bank and
wrote about that experience.
And people thought, wow, that'samazing.
But I at the time never reallyspoke truth to what was

(54:35):
underlying all of that.
And that was.
This sort of obsessivecompulsive disorder that I had
struggled with as an adolescentthat flared back up again
postpartum.
And I mentioned that not toinclude a triggering detail, but
really because I think thatthere's barely any conversations
happening

Yeah.

And I wish I had known that that was
a risk factor because I think Iwould've tried to mitigate it
somehow.
But I talk a lot about thatbecause I think there's so many
potential.
Kind of pitfalls and differentchallenges that we experience in
recovery, many of which we maynot necessarily be expecting or
prepared for.

Yeah.
I appreciate you sharing thatdetail, and I think it's very
common to delude yourself like,I'm doing this in.
You know, conjunction with apositive outcome.
Like, I'm helping the communityor I'm doing the, but it's, it's
like even as you're tellingyourself the, the lie, you know,
you start to recognize, Hmm, isthat really why?
And you have to dig deeper.
That's the part where you digdeeper.

(55:33):
You dig deeper.
And like in having aconversation, like you saying
that if someone heard that athome might have been like, oh,
oh, snap, like.
That is something I did as welland I never would've necessarily
connected the two dots.
But that is the part of being,you know, very vocal about
recovery and like it is anongoing thing and like it's very
easy sometimes we fool ourselfthe best until we're ready to

(55:56):
confront the situation at handbecause you know, to be honest
with other people, you have tobe honest with yourself first,
and that part can be.
I think sometimes harder than ifsomeone comes to you and they're
like, Hey, I'm noticing you'velost X amount of pounds.
Is everything okay?
Well then maybe I feel ready tohave a conversation.
It's a very different,perspective when I'm the one

(56:16):
that's like, everyone thinkseverything's okay, I am in
recovery.
Everyone knows I'm recovered,everyone knows or recovering I,
you know, it's a specialty ofmine.
It's something I talk aboutopenly, even with this podcast
and me talking about sobriety.
And it's like, there are momentswhere I'm like, Hmm, I'm not so
sure how I'm doing, and am Iallowed to talk about that?

(56:36):
And it's like, yes, you have togive your permission to be
transparent.
Because it helps other people,because you're not alone.
Because those are all the thingsthat kept us sick and stuck and
isolated.
So thank you for sharing that.
I think someone at home mightreally resonate and that can,
that can make all thedifference.
So love the work that you'redoing.
Tell us a little bit more,Mallory, where can we find flip?

(56:59):
Slip not slipped because it isan ongoing process.
Guys where can we find slip?
I would cannot wait to read itand get my hands on the copy.
So tell us everything, how wecan connect with you, your work
and your book.

In your book.
Oh, well thank you for that andI really hope that

I.

and listeners will check out the
book and just yeah, that you'llfind it to just be a really
helpful resource.
And SLIP is available forpre-order wherever you buy
books, so you can find it onAmazon Barnes and Noble's
website, your local independentbookstores website.
Target has it.
So, if you're planning to buy itmight as well pre-order it, and
then when it comes out on August5th, you'll get it in the mail.

(57:37):
Pre-orders really help authorsbecause they create initial buzz
around a book and they can helpto expand its reach.
And so I want this book to reachas many people as possible so
that it will help as many peopleas possible.
So, so yeah, I hope.
That folks will check it out.
And I do have a section in theretoo around this sort of
intersection between substance

Hmm.

eating disorders because I do think
it's a really important topicand I write about a lot of these
issues on my substacknewsletter.
It's just my first name,M-A-L-L-A-R yck.com.
And then I'm also pretty activeon Instagram, which is just my
full name, Mallory Rie Tarpley.
And maybe we can include linksbecause

the-sober-butterfly (58:17):
Absolutely, I, everything is linked below
guys in the show notes, so makesure you check that out.
I'm gonna pre-order my book assoon as we get off this call
because I want to learn moreabout this.
And it was funny, I told youbackstage, I binge watch, binge,
that's not the best word.
I watched.
But all, all of the secondseason of America's sweetheart.
Sweethearts, the Dallas CowboysShow on Netflix and season one.

(58:41):
Did you catch season one?

I did,

Okay, so the mother-daughter duo that
was like, you know, they had avery, like, interesting, maybe
like too close mother-daughterrelationship.
Everyone had their thoughtsaround it.
I, I liked them as a, as acouple.
Anyway, they make a littleappearance in this one and like
she struggled openly with hereating disorder and took some
time away from the cowboys.
And then there's a similar, Iwon't ruin it for people who may

(59:03):
have watched this season, butthere's a similar parallel there
or relationship with mother,daughter and also a dancer who
openly struggled with their ed.
And it's just so fascinatingbecause all of the Cowboys, I'm
sure you've seen them, you're inAustin or well, it's Dallas, but
you know what I mean, Texas,sorry, I'm making the
connection.
But like if you've seen themlike the the way in which they

(59:24):
present themselves.
It's like you have to beperfect.
Like on paper behind the scenesyou have to be the perfect
dancer.
You have to work three jobs.
You have to basically be withMiss America on steroids and be
able to dance with the pompomsand look a certain way in your
uniform.
Literally measure them.
And I'm like, how do all ofthese girls not have eating

(59:44):
disorders?
It's just so much pressure.
But I say that to say check outseason two.
'cause I actually think thoughtthey did a better job this
season of being a lot moretransparent with.
What it's like to be a cowboyand how scary it can be
sometimes to live up to thatpressure of being quote.
Perfect.
So just wanted to put that outthere in case you haven't seen
it yet.

(01:00:04):
I recommend it'cause it might bea good place for you to draw
some inspiration for your nextbook.

mallary-tenore-tarpley--sh (01:00:10):
Yes.
I'm glad you mentioned itbecause yeah, it's on my watch
list and so I wanna check it outnext.
And I'm always curious to seejust how different shows and
podcasts and other thingsaddress eating disorders.
So I'll be curious to check

the-sober-butterfly_3_07- (01:00:23):
Check it out.
Let me know what you think.
Thank you so much, Mallory, forcoming on the Sober Butterfly.

mallary-tenore-tarpley--sh (01:00:28):
Yes.
Thanks so much for having me.

the-sober-butterfly_5_0 (01:00:33):
Mallory reminded me that recovery isn't
perfection.
It's about compassion, patience,showing up for yourself even
when it's hard, especially whenit's hard.
And whether you are navigatingrecovery from an eating disorder
or substance use like alcoholPlease know that you are not

(01:00:54):
alone.
My hope is that from thisconversation, you recognize that
healing is possible in your owntime and in your own way.
You can find Mallory's book SlipLife in the Middle of Eating
Disorder, recovery whereverbooks are sold.
But I will drop a link in theshow notes so you can pre-order
her book slip from Amazon.

(01:01:15):
Now, in the very beginning ofthe episode, I talked about.
Ghosting and why I ghosted youguys last week, and I once again
wanna say sorry.
It was not intentional.
I am just experiencing life.
I've been pretty open on theshow around my mental health
struggles this year.

(01:01:36):
I was gonna say this quarter,this, no, it's been all year.
Pretty much.
I've struggled with bouts ofdepression, depressive episodes.
Sometimes feeling it worse thanother days, and last week was a
pretty low point for me.
I had a complete breakdown.
But in good hands, in goodcompany, I.

(01:01:58):
Had a really importantconversation that I was avoiding
with my mom on the phone, andshe supported me through that
entire call.
I.
Broke down, but it was so good.
It was so needed.
It was very cathartic.
I'm not getting into thespecifics right now around what

(01:02:19):
me and my mom talked about, butjust know it was something that
has been weighing so, so much onme, and I will explain one day I
am not.
Trying to be elusive because Idon't want you to know I'm a
pretty open book.
You should know that by now fromfollowing the show.
It's just something that I'mworking through and I, I feel
like the better time to addressit is when I've, when I have

(01:02:44):
more of an understanding aroundlike how to figure that part of
my life out.
But it was something that Isubconsciously.
Have been caring for a longtime, and so finally saying it
out loud to someone else theperson I trust most in this
world, my mom was very helpfulfor me and in me expressing that

(01:03:07):
the tears I.
Came and they continued comingand they wouldn't stop for a
long time, but it was needed.
It felt like a release and Ifeel better and I actually will
go so far as to say that mehaving that breakdown with my
mom felt like the first time fora long time That.

(01:03:28):
I don't know, like there washope, like I was turning a
corner because I think assomeone who is highly energetic
and positive for the most part,and happy go lucky, bubbly
personality, these are thingsthat people have said to me
like, I think this is, I.
An accurate description of mypersonality.
Like I am a very half glass fullgirly, and so it was very hard

(01:03:52):
for me to admit that I wasstruggling with depression.
And I think a big sign for mehas been like this sense of
hopelessness, kind of like oncethe point, like I'm still doing
everything because I can't helpit.
That's just how I'm hardwired.
But at the same time, I'm notexperiencing much joy and I'm
not seeing the, the greaterpicture I, I'm not necessarily

(01:04:12):
believing.
In myself and the ways that Ihave in the past.
So I share all that to say, Ihad that moment with my mom
midweek last week, and then Ialso.
Knew my soberversary was comingup.
And similar to sentiments I'veshared around my birthday this

(01:04:33):
year, turning 34 in March thisyear I had birthday blues and I
felt similar around mysoberversary.
I turned four in sober years,July 5th.
So last Saturday, initially Iwanted the Friday episode, so
the 4th of July episode, to bedevoted to celebrating sub

(01:04:57):
adversaries.
That's been on my content agendafor a long time because I was
like, okay, I need to film thissolo episode around celebrating
sober adversaries and how to doit and all the things, but it
didn't feel authentic to me.
It wasn't matching how I wasfeeling.
And instead of forcing it, Idelayed, delayed.
Next thing I knew, Friday hadcome and gone and I was like.

(01:05:22):
Well, I don't even know what I'mdoing for my sober bursary this
year.
So last year for example, on mysober bursary, I had an episode
around explaining why gettingsober was the best life decision
I've ever made.
I still agree with that.
And then I shared more about my.
Sober story, what led me tosobriety, what life looked like

(01:05:44):
for me before sobriety.
And so I thought maybe doing anupdated version of that would be
helpful, but I'm also like, Idon't have that much new to
share around my story.
I feel like I've, I.
I told my stories a milliondifferent ways.
There are so many episodeswithin the catalog of this show
that one can refer to, in fact,refer to that sober bursary

(01:06:05):
episode from last year, so July5th, 2024.
You can listen to my storythere, and there's just many
renditions of it that have beendone many times over and I
realized that I just didn't feellike talking about my same story
again when I was feelingfeeling.
My feelings actually.
That's it.
I'm feeling my feelings alive inthe moment.

(01:06:25):
Sober.
It was very raw.
I had had that midweek crash outand yeah, I was just like, I'm,
what am I talking about?
Like I'm, I don't wanna repeatmyself.
I don't wanna put an episode outjust about sober bursaries when
I don't even feel likecelebrating mine.
And so I just didn't.
Film anything.

(01:06:46):
Long story short, I just didn'tfeel like it and I just didn't
film anything for you.
I actually had a good soapbursary though, so Saturday woke
up, that was my actual soapbursary.
So that once again, July 5th,woke up with zero plans.
I was kind of like, what are wedoing, girl?
We don't know.
But it's great because I've justbeen overexerting myself.

(01:07:10):
To the umpteenth degree to whereI was craving rest.
I needed my body, my mind neededrest.
So I slept in that Saturday andI mean, sleeping in for me is
like 8:00 AM but I did, I sleptin, I can't even remember now,
all the specifics.
What did I do last Saturday?
I deep clean my apartment.

(01:07:31):
That always makes me feel betterlike decluttering.
I put on the cute little dress,ran some errands, got my beauty
stuff done, like I got my lashesdone, went shopping.
That always huffs a little bitand I, it was like an uneventful
day, but it was a cute day thatI needed, and I actually had an

(01:07:55):
amazing sober bursary doing.
Nothing, nothing special, butlike everything I needed for
myself in that moment.
So I share all that to say.
So per bursaries, well importantcommemorate how you see fit.
For me, it's always a markerthat something is amiss when it

(01:08:16):
feels performative, and that canbe applied to anything in my
life.
Anytime I feel like I have todemonstrate or showcase or like
prove myself to other people,I'm like, girl, what's going on?
Because that's my perfectionism.
Flaring up.
That's me feeling like I have topresent and if I feel like I

(01:08:38):
have to present, it's mostlikely in inauthentic to
actually my inner feelings andhow I'm living my life.
So you may have also noticedthat I haven't been as active on
social.
You guys, I was serious when Isaid this is a silent, sober
summer.
I am taking intentional breaksand this week has been partly

(01:09:00):
like me crashing out, me beinginsanely busy.
I haven't even touched thesurface of like all the things
I've been working on.
That and.
Just life and my super bursaryand just all the things that,
the pressure of feeling like Ihave to perform.
I, I just have been takingbreaks and it feels good and I

(01:09:22):
encourage you to do the same.
And even from this conversationtoday with Mallory seeing how so
much of our conscious andunconscious and schemas are
shaped by what we see on socialis a great reminder that it's
okay to mute, unfollow, it'sokay to take breaks.
It's okay to do whatever youneed to do in order to preserve

(01:09:45):
whatever semblance of mentalhealth you have remaining in
2025.
So I'm gonna end on that note.
I will continue to update youaround my mental health.
Another quick life update that Ithink is amazing.
I'm still not smoking, so yayme.
And maybe that's a part of ittoo.
I'm just like, there's so manythings happening, but I'm proud

(01:10:07):
of myself nonetheless, for.
Just doing what I need to do tocontinue being human.
So I love you guys.
I promise, I actually, I'm notgonna promise that I was gonna
say I'm, I'm promising not toghost you again.
I don't know, maybe I will, butI will try to be more
communicative and update youaccordingly throughout this

(01:10:28):
journey.
It is summer, so I do intend tobe more outside.
Or just outdoors.
Like outside is like outside.
And then there's like outside,like outdoors.
I just plan on being like in thewild.
So I'm just busy is the pointI'm making.
So I will do my best to alwaysbe there for you.
And that will look like meuploading episodes every week.

(01:10:50):
Fridays, you can tune in.
Time-wise, I don't know.
These episodes have been comingout later and later, so just
know it will be Friday, it maybe 6:00 AM it may be 6:00 PM but
you'll get your episodes.
Love you guys.
See you next Friday.
Bye.

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