July 16, 2024 • 46 mins
Deb Goeschel, a communications expert and brand storyteller, has helped many small to medium-sized businesses find their voice through the concise, clear, messaging she’s created for them.
In this episode of The Starfish Storytellers, Deb shares what has been a main challenge for her clients when it comes to conveying their brand story and how she helps them flesh out their BIG WHY. She also walks us through her process for defining an ideal customer profile and why it’s REALLY important for companies to become skilled in conveying their core values in order to attract top talent.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to the Starfish Storytellers, the podcast that makes a difference one story at a time by bringing storytelling to life.
(00:13):
I have always loved hiking and loved being in the woods and, well I shouldn't say always, as a child it wasn't so much as a little bookworm and never went outside.
But as I got into adulthood and somebody took me hiking and I fell in love.
And it was for me one of the most rewarding, like, you know, physically challenging but rewarding and it was incredibly grounding and for me I'm always in my head and so it was a phenomenal exercise on a mental and physical level.
(00:49):
So I loved it so much I ended up becoming an AMC, an Appalachian Mountain Club leader and I took a lot of groups out hiking and, you know, on those sort of official trips, but I also would take friends out and we would do sometimes even more challenging hikes or you know,
kind of do whatever we wanted. So this one time we decided on a backpack slash camping slash hiking trip and it was me and two girlfriends and it started out was phenomenal.
(01:24):
We knew the weather was going to get a little strange but we were hiking in this area where I don't even believe they replaced the bridge at this point and it has since washed out.
But the river could get really gnarly.
Another term when it rained or poured etc. And the second day we were there we'd make camps so we weren't carrying really huge packs in fact we were like thinking, you know, day hikes so just a few hours we were going to go out in the afternoon.
(01:52):
We contemplated trying to hit one of the huts that amc huts that are up there.
And I started getting this really bad feeling. And I wasn't comfortable and I really wasn't having fun.
And I let a friend of mine persuade me to keep going. And we stopped we had some lunch, and we kept going and then finally I was like it really is affecting me physically I was trying to feel ill and I just I have a really bad feeling.
(02:20):
And so I said I want to I want to turn around I want to turn around. And so we did. And, but the whole we get to the river which we had to cross my and you on this hike.
And it had risen feet at this point and it was rushing really fast.
And I want to note that of my, my two friends that were with me. One was my height, we're short, but we're not quite hit five foot three here. And the other friend was much taller than us. And she actually went for it and was able to sort of leave her way from the rocks which in and of itself was a risky move.
(02:59):
And she managed to get over and long story short, we were stuck on the other side, we could not do it without really risking ourselves. So now we're faced with, okay, let's try to get to the hot didn't happen we follow the trail but it was pouring so hard we lost it at one point.
So what happened was we spent the night unplanned on the trail and how to kind of hope from all of our resources we were both yo yo ye practice yoga practitioners. I taught yoga. She had a strong meditation practice. We had a chant like we pulled all of the stops out just to keep ourselves awake because the moment we fell asleep we started shivering and getting very cold.
(03:36):
We were cold around each other and bad bad hiking practice we had one of everything instead of each of us having a hat and a jacket and a pair of gloves.
But we did it. We made it through you know, and in the morning it had cleared and we got ourselves moving and we didn't you know we, we stayed where we were because really in my head with all the training I had I said, if this becomes a rescue we can't be off the trail.
(04:01):
We can't go wandering around like we've got to be found you know findable. So it was a harrowing experience it was profoundly moving it was incredibly meditative in its own way, finding that place of peace with what was happening in just moment by moment keeping ourselves safe as much as we could.
(04:22):
And the big lesson for me there was that forever ignore that little voice in your head that that voice does not steer you wrong. And it also you know when I look back on it.
It's really telling the power of communication, because my friend she's persuasive she's charming and she's, she's as strong world as I am, you know, and it was really an interesting thing to look back and be like you ignored yourself and knowing what was best for you, because your friend was really persuasive, and you
(05:00):
could not disappoint her. So it was just it was an interesting night that it's a story it's a story I've told a number of times and it's story I come back to when I have to remember hey, that little voice is saying something are you listening or you ignoring it, because
(05:21):
it could have been much much worse, we could have been in a lot more trouble. If I didn't have the information and the training I had, and enough experience to sort of make the best out of what we were stuck with.
(05:51):
Hello, my name is Leanna Henry and welcome to the starfish storytellers. I'm the CEO of the black dog group, a mark on and project management firm headquartered on the east coast of the US in quaint colonial Bedford, Massachusetts.
I'm your host and passionate about storytelling. I'm actually on a mission to raise up the next generation of storytellers. We've named ourselves the starfish storytellers after the starfish story. The moral of the starfish story is based on the power of one.
(06:23):
No matter how big the challenge, each action we take makes a difference and has an impact. One step, one starfish and one story at a time. Every episode we welcome a new storyteller who will share their story meant to inspire and connect with you.
We also have a new storyteller who will share their story and offer tips for any listeners who are ready to tell their own stories. So thanks for tuning in. Now let's get started.
(06:48):
Today's episode is about brand messaging storytelling that conveys your company's value and builds trust. And today we welcome Deb Gayshell. I'm saying that correctly. Yes.
A communications expert and a brand storyteller who has helped many small to medium sized businesses find their voice through the concise, clear and accessible communications she creates for them.
(07:11):
I really appreciate you being our guests. Thank you so much for being here.
Well, thank you for having me. I'm really looking forward to our conversation.
Cool.
So we like to get started by having our guests introduce themselves. A better job than I did.
Would you mind telling our listeners a little bit more about you?
Sure, absolutely. So as you said, I'm a communicator and I have been all my life.
(07:35):
I landed here with a little bit of a circuitous route.
My 20s were full of a lot of creative endeavors, everything from photography business to acting, singing, etc. So really exploring the creative world.
But the reality is the communication, the writing is the core. Like I've always been able to write. I've always been able to communicate.
(08:01):
People tell me things whether I want them to or not, you know, so it's been very handy as I go through my career and I did my time in corporate.
I'm actually looking to get back into corporate work again.
But I spent about a decade with my own small business, brand messaging and content creation for the small and medium sized businesses and had a blast, loved, loved, loved doing what I did.
(08:27):
So yeah, that's me.
Nice.
I would also say, you know, if I was going to define who I am, you know, talking about the creative but I was kind of a practical creative, because for me, I love being able to create something that's beautiful, whether beautifully written or have, you know, a designer
(08:49):
who can work on a project and it's beautifully executed, but then it also serves a purpose. I love the fact when your practical things your solution solving solvers are actually also beautiful and functional I just did that's what I strive for in every project I do.
Can have it be beautiful and functional. So that is, that's a great message to send.
(09:14):
So, yes.
It's, it's, you know, I worked on a lot of websites in my career and, and it was always that sort of thing it's like, how do we make this one visually appealing and how do we make it also functional like does it serve the objective.
You know, I think that's kind of why I love gardening and I love knitting because I can do these very practical projects, and then have this gorgeous end results, you know, it's, it all feeds in.
(09:44):
Yes. Yeah, it's in your blood.
So I, I loved your story. I'm an AMC person myself. We grew up going to Echo Lake camp in Acadia or Mount does on Mount Desert Island and, you know, really appreciated those the hiking, the hiking leaders, you know, you always had the one in front and you always had the
(10:19):
one who was a sweep and, you know, and they were really good. They had to be really good communicators because they were leading such large groups of people, you know, we would get up in the morning and you know, because you've gone to AMC camps like get up in the
morning, you have, you know, to tap, that taps to reverie and then go to the dining hall and then put all your gear on and then get on the big bus and then they drop you different, you know, like you would have your, your skilled hikes, your, your easier hikes and then your naturalists and, you
(10:52):
know, and the bus would drop you in all the different places and then, you know, these folks are the people that you trust, who are leading you into the unknown. And, you know, and the expectation is, when they tell you to do something, or they suggest what you should do, you
know, you should probably listen because it's a safety issue. You know, and, you know, like you said, it was really important for all of you to communicate well in order to stay alive, you know, to stay safe, and to be able to, and it's, you know, it's a nice story, it's a great story to tell now.
(11:37):
Absolutely. And one of the things that, you know, in that AMC world is even before, so maybe outside of the camp situation but like when you just have adults signing up for various hikes of that you would schedule and plan.
And there was a lot of re-planning and pre-communication with each individual because for that very reason you didn't want to have a beginner hiker who maybe wasn't fit enough or just got nervous on some of those more, you know, tricky trails, married with somebody who wants to do 15 miles in a day, you know, like it just, it
(12:18):
doesn't make anybody happy. And it creates a safety issue. So it's, yeah, being able to trust the people who are communicating to you and, you know, let's face it, I think in today's world that trust in your communication is critical because there's so much disinformation.
(12:40):
So how do you make sure that your brand messaging and how do you make sure your story not only sounds authentic but actually is true and you're not just saying what you think people want to hear because that doesn't actually in the end serve anybody.
So it was, I mean, that's a huge trend for 2024 in the era of AI is having that authentic message. What's authentic and what's not, and how important like you're saying it is to create that authentic message because, you know, people question now there's a lot of trust issues now, and you want your brand to convey trust.
(13:26):
Yeah, it's truly, you know, how do you put your actions, matching whatever you're saying and vice versa. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
So we're going to talk about brand messaging and more detail is, and as the storytelling that it creates and, and how brand messaging is capturing the company's tone, and, and how the messaging is actually how this brand is communicating with their audience with with their clients and their prospects.
(13:59):
And through brand messaging, a company is positioning its public identity by conveying its values and its value to different things.
Brand messages influence public perception so service and product sales are all impacted by a brand's story.
(14:21):
So I'm going to elaborate on that. You have any additional thoughts on that. Yeah, I always liken brand messaging to personality. Right. So, as humans, because this is the reality like there's business and there's companies and all of this stuff but the reality is this people behind
the customer side, business side right and think about us as people we want to be around people who have similar ideas, interest, tastes, values, etc. And if you can find a business or someone offering a service that aligns with your own way of being in the world or your own way of looking at the world.
(14:58):
That's like the idea way to begin to create that trust and that loyalty right. And you know, yeah, I'm sure there are products out there if we wanted to, you know, look that people aren't necessarily digging deep into whether or not that company, you know, aligns with my values.
But studies are showing that more people are buying their, or the more people are spending their money in ways that aligns with how they want to be in the world or how they want the world to be.
(15:32):
So they're, you know, I say they're putting their money where their values are right. And that's happening more and more specifically with the, I'm going to say younger generation.
You know, Gen Z millennials and millennials are fairly large group of folks at this point right. And it comes down to a business going, who am I reaching, why am I reaching them, you know, because it's not everybody, we know this right.
(16:01):
Not everybody is your customer not everybody is your audience, but to convey your personality, like, you need to know why you're doing something. And, and how you're doing it.
And, okay, if I made you know a million dollars this year, what does that mean.
Is it just the bottom line is it how my business is interacting with my community in the world how am I improving things, because people are starting to notice and people are starting to demand actually better.
(16:32):
I think we're in a real interesting transition place, you know, and it's going to spend quite a number of years.
And how we go there's so many factors that impact us, but especially for those smaller businesses and midsize businesses.
And where that personal touch, I think is really important.
People need to know why you're doing something where you're coming from and they want to feel like they want to feel good. They want to feel good working with you or buying from you that's, that's really what it comes down to so I really think your brand messaging, basically is a personality.
(17:09):
You're showing to the world, you know, and who you are.
People will make decisions based on that.
Yeah.
I've read a lot. And this is, you know, just off an aside here but I've read a lot about, you know, brand, brand storytelling brand messaging that, you know, brand stories like that always has been really to create the public persona right but yeah.
(17:39):
So, in the post COVID era. I have read a lot that people's buying decisions really are tied back to values. And I'm curious I wonder if it's even more so now than it ever was in the past.
(18:02):
My personal opinion would agree with you I think I tend to that toward that thinking as well. I don't have the data necessarily to back that up.
But just in anecdotal conversations and stories and honestly, you know, even personal experience I think, you know, there are some folks who covered hit in profound ways and different for a lot of different people.
(18:27):
But I think it made people really look at their lives and say, What am I doing? Why am I doing it? Is it worth it? You know, look at this planet like I mean it just there was I think a lot of people had that blinders off kind of moment, you know, and they want to feel.
And again, this is strictly my opinion here but I think people want to feel more vested in what they're doing. They want to feel high to what they're doing. It's not enough to just go and earn a paycheck at a job you hate.
(19:01):
Right. It's not enough to buy one more thing because of retail therapy. You know, it's going. What's the impact of this decision not just on me now but on my family.
On us five years from now on the planet on my community, I think people are questioning, you know, I feel like it's a bit in its infancy of a global toddlers in this sort of that process, but it's there, it's beginning and I think that's something that anybody who wants to
(19:33):
offer a product or offer a service, you know, how does that make things better how does that make people happier you know it's it's which is just a larger way of saying what problems are you solving it really right yeah yeah but I think it's key like people are really thinking about the
solving.
(19:55):
Yes, on a yes I just in a different way.
Now, I agree. I think.
Yeah. So we had the pleasure of meeting through LinkedIn. And I hung out on your on your page and your profile you have this awesome banner, which is so beautifully created.
So I was like, what I saw in your profile that you had been a graphic designer I was like, aha, that's there you go. And it reads communication is like magic. When the right words convey the right message to the right audience.
(20:29):
It can change everything behaviors decisions actions and lives.
So I think you've dealt businesses with communication in several of your past roles actually you've been a content manager comms director you've been told visual stories as a graphic designer.
So my question for you is when you're working with some of your clients. What has been the biggest challenge for them, when it comes to communicating their brand story.
(20:58):
So it's a really good question and I think, and again, I'm coming from my perspective which is I've worked with smaller businesses, you know, small, smaller midsize businesses.
So I'm not working with the ginormous you know, fortune 500 folks. So I get to work with the owners of the business I get to really work with those key folks and partners.
(21:19):
And what I found is that the biggest challenge is so many of them think they can do it all themselves. They think that they can tell their story themselves. And the reality is, they can't like they just can't.
And because there's not enough objectivity. I have actually heard from a lot of these business owners. Well we've gone through a brand messaging process and really kind of defined and identified and all of that good stuff.
(21:50):
I've had people actually say to me. Wow.
I mean, there was a lot more intense than I thought it was going to be. And to, I've learned a lot about myself in the business. I've learned a lot about the business and how I want it to go, which I think is incredibly telling for them to actually say that right.
And, you know, we all start our businesses because we were good at something we love doing whatever it is. And we're kind of our own little experts in our little world right.
(22:24):
And there's passion and there's knowledge and all of these things but so many business owners, you know, they're not natural marketers they're not natural communicators.
So it's a skill that's outside of their training or experience right and so they really do need help and I mean I say this even for myself.
When it's time to write, you know, if I if I watch in another business or it's mine. I'm not going to write a copy.
(22:54):
I'm not going to be solo doing my brand messaging. I'm going to find somebody else doing what I do. So they do it for me. Right, because you're too close. And for myself personally and I'm not the only one out there in the entrepreneurial world and the business world, but I'm a perfectionist when it comes to my stuff.
And when you're doing your own, you know, you're trying to tell your own story, you never land the plane, you never stop, you keep tweaking tweaking until you're so far away from your message that it's muddy, and nobody knows what you're doing.
(23:25):
Right. So I think it's, you know, that's literally that was the challenge and I think it's not something that's uncommon at all.
Really, when it comes to folks needing to tell their story, they kind of have to just release the reins, turn it over to somebody who can really help them do it well.
(23:48):
You know,
I think the key piece that you just said is the objectivity, right, and, and, you know, if I've got my head against a mosaic, I can see one tile right.
Somebody standing behind me can see the big picture and they might be able to pick out stuff in language that maybe I can't.
(24:10):
Yes, absolutely. And I think, you know, as folks doing what we do, when we talk to clients and we work on these projects, you know, we're really getting to know them, we're really getting, you know, we're diving deep into somebody's business.
And it's not a superficial, you know, skim over the water, we're literally diving deep. And, and I think that's where folks who don't know what they don't know, you know, it's, it's informational and educational for them to realize,
(24:45):
wow, all of this work goes into telling my story goes into telling my story of my business or you know, whatever the objective is but I think it's it's a misconception and I think honestly and I'm going to be very curious to watch over the next
you know, a couple years, how AI plays into this because I think a lot of folks are leaning into it in the absolute right way and then there's other folks who are thinking you could do more than it can.
(25:15):
You know, and it's like you really, you still need that discerning human brain to pull out what's important.
Yep. When you, and this is another side, this is what I knew this was going to happen, we were going to go on tangents because this is what we do.
When you say people are using AI, absolutely in the right way.
(25:38):
What are some ways that you think you're seeing or you've seen, or you follow trends, where you see, you know, especially in the content and writing world in the world like how, how are people using it responsibly and in the right way.
I think, I mean, I see it, I witness it, I don't work in tech but my husband, my partner does, and you know, they're using it in certain places for coding. It's not replacing the engineers is not replacing the developers but they're finding ways to use it to
(26:14):
help anybody who's technical is going to like laugh because I'm not going to do any justice this but you know for automation and they're trying to make their jobs a little more streamlined and a little more easy.
I think that's a great way to do it. I think using AI, if you're, if you are looking for a job, and you need help writing your cover letter, please, if you do that, don't stop there.
(26:40):
You can do that first draft and then go back and really make it yours. But some people, you know, I've experienced this with clients, some people, they can't get there just on conception they're really going to be better reacting to something so I think when you, you know, you can use that
draft idea, and, and you can come up with something that actually serves you well. I think, you know, some of the really small businesses that they don't have budgets to hire social media folks right so using it to help create some of their social posts.
(27:18):
You need to be oversight, because we don't want to lose it's what we started talking about right that authenticity, and that that personal voice, and we cannot forget that AI the chat GPT all that stuff pulls from the entire internet.
Millions, billions of voices so if you want it to be yours, you still need to go back so I like to think of it as a tool in the toolbox. It's not the tool in the toolbox, right you, or whoever you hired to help you do whatever that task is, is that the real, the real, you know, you're the person
(27:59):
who's filling the tool and I that still needs to happen so I'm sure there's a ton, a ton more of examples but I just like and I always caution at this point it's like yeah first draft it.
Great. And then you need to go back, you need to go back and put your own eyes and voice and words on it. So,
(28:23):
that's, that's the key to, you know, I have a blog on my website about plagiarism checkers and why you need them in the era of AI, because it just pulls from everywhere.
And, and, you know, and you're right I mean it doesn't.
It just doesn't pick up the nuances, you know, any of the social human touch human nuance it just doesn't it's not designed for that yet.
(28:49):
Yeah, and it's a ways away from that quite honestly I mean it's moving fast I won't say that but you know and I probably could be following a little more closely but what I do see and and have you know read people who are looking at it.
I think people who are looking at it how do we make, you know, our jobs better and literally better not not just, you know, good enough, but or how we use it to.
(29:19):
And so, you know, we've just done work for a local private school in Providence, and they have created a little committee, you know, a committee to look at how do we use a I to improve the education process, while not sort of, you know, making
(29:40):
it like, you know, the key like really teaching the kids responsibility about it and questioning and all that stuff so I thought that was, you know, phenomenal, but it's, it's going to be interesting to watch how it all plays out.
Especially in the content world.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I wanted to circle back to how you started you know when you would start working with your, with your clients to kind of get to know them. So you, you would give them a messaging questionnaire for them to fill out.
(30:15):
You would ask them about their vision, their mission, but you, you know, you, you, you phrase something you said you talked about tell me about your big why.
And I am sure this has brought out some pretty heartfelt stories in the conversations that you've had, you know, just, just like at the heart of why people are doing what they do, especially small business owners.
(30:38):
Can you share a story or two about some big why visions that you feel maybe made a difference.
You know, the funny thing is, I'm not, I'm having a hard time coming up with a particular story, but I will say that with working with the businesses that the smaller businesses, especially, I always had heard heartfelt stories right, and I think it really ties back to the
(31:05):
fact that a lot of these folks have an experience, and it changed their lives, right, whatever it is whether they they healed something, or somebody had invented something and it made a difference like something really profound.
And it made them go wow. This was so impactful. How do I make this, how do I help other people achieve this kind of, you know, results, or be this happy or you know you whatever whatever might have been and watching, you know, watching these folks and talking to them.
(31:45):
And it was, it was, you know, funny thing is a lot of them. They're so passionate about, you know, what it is that they're doing that there were times I have to come back and be like, Okay, I'm not a business coach but I need to say this to you.
I can't do this, unless you're actually making money. Right. So, you do have to land in a in the practical world here. Right. And I always, you know, I used to say to folks because part of the big why it's like what's the impact like what what's driving.
(32:15):
I would say to them. Sometimes it's a why you're not going to share. Right. Sometimes it might be too personal to share. Sometimes it's fantastic to put out on your on your website and it's a real driver.
But I found that folks, I've been very, very lucky to work with some amazing people and very it's been very gratifying to realize that the majority of folks that I've worked with do want to make a positive impact on their not just their clients and customers, but on their families their
(32:50):
own, but on their planet, you know, depending on how big it goes out. And understanding some of them would be planning me like okay, I know I've started this business and I'm not quite there yet but I'm planning by year five to have a charitable arm because I want certain
opportunities in my profits to go to this cause, you know, I'm that's beautiful that's wonderful. And then there was like you know it doesn't make sense for my business to do that.
(33:21):
I'm really personally in making money. So I can support this cause. So it was coming from from both sides. And I think what's joyful for me is that I got to hear those motivations, I got to hear those inspirational inspirational
(33:43):
stories that someone overcame a B or C, or they're living like this despite something else that happened to them, and sometimes again very personal stories, or sometimes people just got tired of something maybe just not being offered in a great
way, you know, and watching them and for me, finding those big why is, and I always said the reason you want to identify that big why, and I would tell them I said
(34:12):
when you do you put the outlet wherever you work, make sure it's like smack where you can see it. Because that's what you look at when you have the day where you go why am I even doing this.
What's the point this is just an awful day and you're down and you're slogging and nothing's going right. And you look at that big why, and you come back to that big picture and you say oh right this is just a temporary thing we all like every
(34:39):
business, every job, every day can offer absolute highs but you can also be really low right. And it's just the nature of business flows up down whatever and I feel like understanding that big why and understanding that vision.
And again, some of that needs to be become part of the messaging and you can do it in an appropriate way the original story the little too personal, because, again it brings that personality it brings that humanity to what you're doing and people connect with
(35:15):
people by based on emotional choices it's it's not. It's not not ever, but the majority of people make decisions based on how they feel. Right, or how they want to feel. Yeah, it's not. It's not a hard numbers game right.
So I that's why I feel like you know when you have that. And again, depending on the type of business product service that's offered. They'll be an appropriate amount of what you can share. Yeah, with your audience.
(35:44):
Right to make you feel real and genuine and that, and then they can feel good about supporting what you're doing and spending the money or their time with you or whatever it might be right. Right.
And stuff feel good circle. That's what happens. Yes, yes. Yes.
So you, you help your clients through their brand messaging, I'm sure they're, you know, they're, they're identifying their ideal customer profile their ICP, right.
(36:15):
And then they need to convey their credibility for solving said customers problems. And that happens through the brand messaging.
So talk us through the process you use to help your clients define how and who they will serve and I think we've talked a little bit about that. Yeah. So, again, approach. Actually that different really between service based and product based businesses because it all kind of comes back to that one same
(36:48):
sort of problem solving, but I have kind of a basic process that I from where I start and it's not complicated but it does force folks to really step into their customer clients shoes, right.
And, you know, identify and see what it is that they want or they need.
I talk about, you know, the jobs, you know, what is it that they're doing daily, weekly, monthly, annually, you know, and again depends on, on what arena you're in. I mean, maybe you are manufacturer and you produce something that is used once a year by some other
(37:23):
company right.
It seems small, but if that's a vital something that happens, it can derail the entire product, you know, business. So I, I say, what are they doing every day, what is it that is their challenge every day every month whatever.
What are they complaining about you know what is it that needs fixing like what's going to make their job easier. Right. So whether you're B to be or B to see.
(37:54):
And so, you know, this is the example of if you're maybe you're a daycare provider. You know, what's the problem that your clients have. They need somebody trustworthy to watch their children while you're at work.
Right. So you start going like what, what, what needs to be solved in that that scenario.
You identify that first and there may be more than one thing and that's that's again where you start looking at where's the priority and you start looking at the value prop and, and where, where you really slide in to fix their daily, weekly, monthly, annual problem whatever it might be.
(38:26):
Right, right, right.
I don't really like going at least from a negative approach, but it is informative to kind of position it from what's the pain that they have or what's the pain they're trying to avoid.
Because that really is helpful when you're looking at well what is that problem that needs to be solved you know what's stressing them out. What's creating more difficulty in their life and their daily work.
(38:54):
So you can help you identify if there's a risk or negative outcome to them for them, if they don't work for with you or buy your product from you. Right. So it's again, can you look at the value prop there. Right.
If they don't buy what you're offering is there a negative outcome from there from for them.
(39:17):
Because I think that can be really informative. And then of course the opposite and the positive side is what's the game right what's their benefit of buying from you working with you and for me this definitely ties to the value proposition.
Right, because that's like, yeah, I work with you, yeah, I bought from you and I feel great because my problem is solved. And I think, you know, when you look at the three.
(39:46):
The three buckets like that.
You're going to see a pattern you're going to see something very clear through line or you're going to see the holes and whatever was it you were thinking, you know, so that's kind of why I like looking at it. It's, it's again it's not complicated, but it's there.
And I'll say with service based business owners.
I also ask them to start looking at.
(40:12):
You know, identifying people they like to be around. Right. People who have personality qualities that they like, because if you're a service based, and I've worked with a lot of like therapists and holistic healers and you know that arena as well as
other service based businesses. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a personal relationship it's a more personal relationship than a product based correct. So I say to them, like, look, you have to be comfortable working with these people, because if you're not comfortable you're never going to get to that place of trust, and then you're
(40:49):
going to have a problem because they're not going to trust you to do it. Right. So that's another piece for the service folks and I'm like, Hey, what are those traits that you know you like, where the people that you you never hesitate to pick up the phone,
where the people that you leave them and you feel joyful. Now, why, like, what makes you happy like is it because they listen is it because they're honest is it because they're funny like, you know, it's, it's not the end all be all but I feel like for service based folks.
(41:18):
It's an important piece to identify because, yeah, again, it comes but like, without trust, you're not going to, you're not going to have the success you want on either side.
Yeah, yeah. Two thoughts. When you were talking about sort of the game for working with you versus the risks of not working with you.
(41:41):
I've had some experiences where I feel like you have to be careful with the risks thing because I've had worked with some people who just like, they really dig into that doom and gloom part of the story and it's like, you can take that so far.
But then I think you don't want to scare your potential prospects because you know, to the point where they're like, you know, this is, you know, so I think that's important.
(42:07):
And then I love what you said about the service, you know, you know, doing your business development and your prospecting looking for people who you like are going to like to work with.
I think, you know, being, you know, first couple of years of business, you are like customer customer customer customer customer.
And then a service based business, you have the potential to have that customer for a very long time and have them be a repeat customer, you know, like, if I have a customer that I'm working on a conference on and then there's the next conference is coming up if we worked really well together,
(42:43):
they're going to hire me back for the next conference.
So, but, but like understanding all of the personality dynamics I think is really important as well and like, who can I work with and and you know, where do I have to bend a little bit to kind of, you know, so we can all you know, we can all gel here.
Yeah, I love that point that's really important.
(43:06):
I think it's a really, I think it is important and I always say folks like, you know, you create your ideal customer profile. And I always think about it like, okay that's that line zero right if we're going to kind of put on a graph.
And that's your ideal that is your perfect person.
You get to decide, especially with service based, half are off that line, you're willing to go right. And again with a lot of folks in their early years of business.
(43:35):
And I always say I'm like, if they can't pay you. They're not your ideal customer right now. Right. Once you're, you're flowing and you're going and you've got profitable profitability.
If you want to have some pro bono work. If you want to have a charitable arm that allow you know that's great, but you can't do that.
(43:56):
Until your business is absolutely strong. Right. So it's just understanding what it is that you're going for there and the same with products. Right. If you can't afford the product they're not your customer.
Yeah, you know, yes you can look at your pricing but my experiences that most business owners, especially newer to newer, they underpriced to begin with so it's not like you need, you know, like that's not the issue.
(44:25):
You can't, you can't give yourself away for free. You're in your own business or you have a hobby and you just have to decide. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, especially if you, yeah, the price is off too low then it is just a hobby that it's a passion project.
Exactly. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as you know that's what you're doing. Yeah.
Well that is all the time we have for today this time just flew by. I didn't even get to ask you a bunch of questions because we were just just talking about it to many asides, you know, can't help myself.
(44:57):
Yeah, they were, you know, made it interesting.
But thank you Deb so much for being here and and sharing your expertise around messaging because I think it's one of the hardest things for any small business medium sized business, even, you know, it is one of the hardest things to be able to do is to put together.
(45:19):
Absolutely. And it's something that I love to do. And again, I think it comes back to that, you know, the creative part I mean I can see this big picture and I can see what we want it to go but my goodness there's all these little pieces that have to be attended to in order for that picture to, you know, your mosaic, you know, analogy it's like, all the little pieces
make the big picture whole and you really do need them all.
(45:44):
Yeah, people have to take the time to make sure that all those pieces are conveyed. Thank you.
Thank you.
And to our listeners, whether you hear us locally from the BTV studios in Bedford, Massachusetts or across the globe on such podcast channels as Spotify, Apple podcasts or Amazon Prime.
(46:05):
Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode and we'll see you next time. Happy storytelling.
Welcome to the Starfish Storytellers, the podcast that makes a difference one story at a time by bringing storytelling to life.
(00:13):
I have always loved hiking and loved being in the woods and, well I shouldn't say always, as a child it wasn't so much as a little bookworm and never went outside.
But as I got into adulthood and somebody took me hiking and I fell in love.
And it was for me one of the most rewarding, like, you know, physically challenging but rewarding and it was incredibly grounding and for me I'm always in my head and so it was a phenomenal exercise on a mental and physical level.
(00:49):
So I loved it so much I ended up becoming an AMC, an Appalachian Mountain Club leader and I took a lot of groups out hiking and, you know, on those sort of official trips, but I also would take friends out and we would do sometimes even more challenging hikes or you know,
kind of do whatever we wanted. So this one time we decided on a backpack slash camping slash hiking trip and it was me and two girlfriends and it started out was phenomenal.
(01:24):
We knew the weather was going to get a little strange but we were hiking in this area where I don't even believe they replaced the bridge at this point and it has since washed out.
But the river could get really gnarly.
Another term when it rained or poured etc. And the second day we were there we'd make camps so we weren't carrying really huge packs in fact we were like thinking, you know, day hikes so just a few hours we were going to go out in the afternoon.
(01:52):
We contemplated trying to hit one of the huts that amc huts that are up there.
And I started getting this really bad feeling. And I wasn't comfortable and I really wasn't having fun.
And I let a friend of mine persuade me to keep going. And we stopped we had some lunch, and we kept going and then finally I was like it really is affecting me physically I was trying to feel ill and I just I have a really bad feeling.
(02:20):
And so I said I want to I want to turn around I want to turn around. And so we did. And, but the whole we get to the river which we had to cross my and you on this hike.
And it had risen feet at this point and it was rushing really fast.
And I want to note that of my, my two friends that were with me. One was my height, we're short, but we're not quite hit five foot three here. And the other friend was much taller than us. And she actually went for it and was able to sort of leave her way from the rocks which in and of itself was a risky move.
(02:59):
And she managed to get over and long story short, we were stuck on the other side, we could not do it without really risking ourselves. So now we're faced with, okay, let's try to get to the hot didn't happen we follow the trail but it was pouring so hard we lost it at one point.
So what happened was we spent the night unplanned on the trail and how to kind of hope from all of our resources we were both yo yo ye practice yoga practitioners. I taught yoga. She had a strong meditation practice. We had a chant like we pulled all of the stops out just to keep ourselves awake because the moment we fell asleep we started shivering and getting very cold.
(03:36):
We were cold around each other and bad bad hiking practice we had one of everything instead of each of us having a hat and a jacket and a pair of gloves.
But we did it. We made it through you know, and in the morning it had cleared and we got ourselves moving and we didn't you know we, we stayed where we were because really in my head with all the training I had I said, if this becomes a rescue we can't be off the trail.
(04:01):
We can't go wandering around like we've got to be found you know findable. So it was a harrowing experience it was profoundly moving it was incredibly meditative in its own way, finding that place of peace with what was happening in just moment by moment keeping ourselves safe as much as we could.
(04:22):
And the big lesson for me there was that forever ignore that little voice in your head that that voice does not steer you wrong. And it also you know when I look back on it.
It's really telling the power of communication, because my friend she's persuasive she's charming and she's, she's as strong world as I am, you know, and it was really an interesting thing to look back and be like you ignored yourself and knowing what was best for you, because your friend was really persuasive, and you
(05:00):
could not disappoint her. So it was just it was an interesting night that it's a story it's a story I've told a number of times and it's story I come back to when I have to remember hey, that little voice is saying something are you listening or you ignoring it, because
(05:21):
it could have been much much worse, we could have been in a lot more trouble. If I didn't have the information and the training I had, and enough experience to sort of make the best out of what we were stuck with.
(05:51):
Hello, my name is Leanna Henry and welcome to the starfish storytellers. I'm the CEO of the black dog group, a mark on and project management firm headquartered on the east coast of the US in quaint colonial Bedford, Massachusetts.
I'm your host and passionate about storytelling. I'm actually on a mission to raise up the next generation of storytellers. We've named ourselves the starfish storytellers after the starfish story. The moral of the starfish story is based on the power of one.
(06:23):
No matter how big the challenge, each action we take makes a difference and has an impact. One step, one starfish and one story at a time. Every episode we welcome a new storyteller who will share their story meant to inspire and connect with you.
We also have a new storyteller who will share their story and offer tips for any listeners who are ready to tell their own stories. So thanks for tuning in. Now let's get started.
(06:48):
Today's episode is about brand messaging storytelling that conveys your company's value and builds trust. And today we welcome Deb Gayshell. I'm saying that correctly. Yes.
A communications expert and a brand storyteller who has helped many small to medium sized businesses find their voice through the concise, clear and accessible communications she creates for them.
(07:11):
I really appreciate you being our guests. Thank you so much for being here.
Well, thank you for having me. I'm really looking forward to our conversation.
Cool.
So we like to get started by having our guests introduce themselves. A better job than I did.
Would you mind telling our listeners a little bit more about you?
Sure, absolutely. So as you said, I'm a communicator and I have been all my life.
(07:35):
I landed here with a little bit of a circuitous route.
My 20s were full of a lot of creative endeavors, everything from photography business to acting, singing, etc. So really exploring the creative world.
But the reality is the communication, the writing is the core. Like I've always been able to write. I've always been able to communicate.
(08:01):
People tell me things whether I want them to or not, you know, so it's been very handy as I go through my career and I did my time in corporate.
I'm actually looking to get back into corporate work again.
But I spent about a decade with my own small business, brand messaging and content creation for the small and medium sized businesses and had a blast, loved, loved, loved doing what I did.
(08:27):
So yeah, that's me.
Nice.
I would also say, you know, if I was going to define who I am, you know, talking about the creative but I was kind of a practical creative, because for me, I love being able to create something that's beautiful, whether beautifully written or have, you know, a designer
(08:49):
who can work on a project and it's beautifully executed, but then it also serves a purpose. I love the fact when your practical things your solution solving solvers are actually also beautiful and functional I just did that's what I strive for in every project I do.
Can have it be beautiful and functional. So that is, that's a great message to send.
(09:14):
So, yes.
It's, it's, you know, I worked on a lot of websites in my career and, and it was always that sort of thing it's like, how do we make this one visually appealing and how do we make it also functional like does it serve the objective.
You know, I think that's kind of why I love gardening and I love knitting because I can do these very practical projects, and then have this gorgeous end results, you know, it's, it all feeds in.
(09:44):
Yes. Yeah, it's in your blood.
So I, I loved your story. I'm an AMC person myself. We grew up going to Echo Lake camp in Acadia or Mount does on Mount Desert Island and, you know, really appreciated those the hiking, the hiking leaders, you know, you always had the one in front and you always had the
(10:19):
one who was a sweep and, you know, and they were really good. They had to be really good communicators because they were leading such large groups of people, you know, we would get up in the morning and you know, because you've gone to AMC camps like get up in the
morning, you have, you know, to tap, that taps to reverie and then go to the dining hall and then put all your gear on and then get on the big bus and then they drop you different, you know, like you would have your, your skilled hikes, your, your easier hikes and then your naturalists and, you
(10:52):
know, and the bus would drop you in all the different places and then, you know, these folks are the people that you trust, who are leading you into the unknown. And, you know, and the expectation is, when they tell you to do something, or they suggest what you should do, you
know, you should probably listen because it's a safety issue. You know, and, you know, like you said, it was really important for all of you to communicate well in order to stay alive, you know, to stay safe, and to be able to, and it's, you know, it's a nice story, it's a great story to tell now.
(11:37):
Absolutely. And one of the things that, you know, in that AMC world is even before, so maybe outside of the camp situation but like when you just have adults signing up for various hikes of that you would schedule and plan.
And there was a lot of re-planning and pre-communication with each individual because for that very reason you didn't want to have a beginner hiker who maybe wasn't fit enough or just got nervous on some of those more, you know, tricky trails, married with somebody who wants to do 15 miles in a day, you know, like it just, it
(12:18):
doesn't make anybody happy. And it creates a safety issue. So it's, yeah, being able to trust the people who are communicating to you and, you know, let's face it, I think in today's world that trust in your communication is critical because there's so much disinformation.
(12:40):
So how do you make sure that your brand messaging and how do you make sure your story not only sounds authentic but actually is true and you're not just saying what you think people want to hear because that doesn't actually in the end serve anybody.
So it was, I mean, that's a huge trend for 2024 in the era of AI is having that authentic message. What's authentic and what's not, and how important like you're saying it is to create that authentic message because, you know, people question now there's a lot of trust issues now, and you want your brand to convey trust.
(13:26):
Yeah, it's truly, you know, how do you put your actions, matching whatever you're saying and vice versa. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
So we're going to talk about brand messaging and more detail is, and as the storytelling that it creates and, and how brand messaging is capturing the company's tone, and, and how the messaging is actually how this brand is communicating with their audience with with their clients and their prospects.
(13:59):
And through brand messaging, a company is positioning its public identity by conveying its values and its value to different things.
Brand messages influence public perception so service and product sales are all impacted by a brand's story.
(14:21):
So I'm going to elaborate on that. You have any additional thoughts on that. Yeah, I always liken brand messaging to personality. Right. So, as humans, because this is the reality like there's business and there's companies and all of this stuff but the reality is this people behind
the customer side, business side right and think about us as people we want to be around people who have similar ideas, interest, tastes, values, etc. And if you can find a business or someone offering a service that aligns with your own way of being in the world or your own way of looking at the world.
(14:58):
That's like the idea way to begin to create that trust and that loyalty right. And you know, yeah, I'm sure there are products out there if we wanted to, you know, look that people aren't necessarily digging deep into whether or not that company, you know, aligns with my values.
But studies are showing that more people are buying their, or the more people are spending their money in ways that aligns with how they want to be in the world or how they want the world to be.
(15:32):
So they're, you know, I say they're putting their money where their values are right. And that's happening more and more specifically with the, I'm going to say younger generation.
You know, Gen Z millennials and millennials are fairly large group of folks at this point right. And it comes down to a business going, who am I reaching, why am I reaching them, you know, because it's not everybody, we know this right.
(16:01):
Not everybody is your customer not everybody is your audience, but to convey your personality, like, you need to know why you're doing something. And, and how you're doing it.
And, okay, if I made you know a million dollars this year, what does that mean.
Is it just the bottom line is it how my business is interacting with my community in the world how am I improving things, because people are starting to notice and people are starting to demand actually better.
(16:32):
I think we're in a real interesting transition place, you know, and it's going to spend quite a number of years.
And how we go there's so many factors that impact us, but especially for those smaller businesses and midsize businesses.
And where that personal touch, I think is really important.
People need to know why you're doing something where you're coming from and they want to feel like they want to feel good. They want to feel good working with you or buying from you that's, that's really what it comes down to so I really think your brand messaging, basically is a personality.
(17:09):
You're showing to the world, you know, and who you are.
People will make decisions based on that.
Yeah.
I've read a lot. And this is, you know, just off an aside here but I've read a lot about, you know, brand, brand storytelling brand messaging that, you know, brand stories like that always has been really to create the public persona right but yeah.
(17:39):
So, in the post COVID era. I have read a lot that people's buying decisions really are tied back to values. And I'm curious I wonder if it's even more so now than it ever was in the past.
(18:02):
My personal opinion would agree with you I think I tend to that toward that thinking as well. I don't have the data necessarily to back that up.
But just in anecdotal conversations and stories and honestly, you know, even personal experience I think, you know, there are some folks who covered hit in profound ways and different for a lot of different people.
(18:27):
But I think it made people really look at their lives and say, What am I doing? Why am I doing it? Is it worth it? You know, look at this planet like I mean it just there was I think a lot of people had that blinders off kind of moment, you know, and they want to feel.
And again, this is strictly my opinion here but I think people want to feel more vested in what they're doing. They want to feel high to what they're doing. It's not enough to just go and earn a paycheck at a job you hate.
(19:01):
Right. It's not enough to buy one more thing because of retail therapy. You know, it's going. What's the impact of this decision not just on me now but on my family.
On us five years from now on the planet on my community, I think people are questioning, you know, I feel like it's a bit in its infancy of a global toddlers in this sort of that process, but it's there, it's beginning and I think that's something that anybody who wants to
(19:33):
offer a product or offer a service, you know, how does that make things better how does that make people happier you know it's it's which is just a larger way of saying what problems are you solving it really right yeah yeah but I think it's key like people are really thinking about the
solving.
(19:55):
Yes, on a yes I just in a different way.
Now, I agree. I think.
Yeah. So we had the pleasure of meeting through LinkedIn. And I hung out on your on your page and your profile you have this awesome banner, which is so beautifully created.
So I was like, what I saw in your profile that you had been a graphic designer I was like, aha, that's there you go. And it reads communication is like magic. When the right words convey the right message to the right audience.
(20:29):
It can change everything behaviors decisions actions and lives.
So I think you've dealt businesses with communication in several of your past roles actually you've been a content manager comms director you've been told visual stories as a graphic designer.
So my question for you is when you're working with some of your clients. What has been the biggest challenge for them, when it comes to communicating their brand story.
(20:58):
So it's a really good question and I think, and again, I'm coming from my perspective which is I've worked with smaller businesses, you know, small, smaller midsize businesses.
So I'm not working with the ginormous you know, fortune 500 folks. So I get to work with the owners of the business I get to really work with those key folks and partners.
(21:19):
And what I found is that the biggest challenge is so many of them think they can do it all themselves. They think that they can tell their story themselves. And the reality is, they can't like they just can't.
And because there's not enough objectivity. I have actually heard from a lot of these business owners. Well we've gone through a brand messaging process and really kind of defined and identified and all of that good stuff.
(21:50):
I've had people actually say to me. Wow.
I mean, there was a lot more intense than I thought it was going to be. And to, I've learned a lot about myself in the business. I've learned a lot about the business and how I want it to go, which I think is incredibly telling for them to actually say that right.
And, you know, we all start our businesses because we were good at something we love doing whatever it is. And we're kind of our own little experts in our little world right.
(22:24):
And there's passion and there's knowledge and all of these things but so many business owners, you know, they're not natural marketers they're not natural communicators.
So it's a skill that's outside of their training or experience right and so they really do need help and I mean I say this even for myself.
When it's time to write, you know, if I if I watch in another business or it's mine. I'm not going to write a copy.
(22:54):
I'm not going to be solo doing my brand messaging. I'm going to find somebody else doing what I do. So they do it for me. Right, because you're too close. And for myself personally and I'm not the only one out there in the entrepreneurial world and the business world, but I'm a perfectionist when it comes to my stuff.
And when you're doing your own, you know, you're trying to tell your own story, you never land the plane, you never stop, you keep tweaking tweaking until you're so far away from your message that it's muddy, and nobody knows what you're doing.
(23:25):
Right. So I think it's, you know, that's literally that was the challenge and I think it's not something that's uncommon at all.
Really, when it comes to folks needing to tell their story, they kind of have to just release the reins, turn it over to somebody who can really help them do it well.
(23:48):
You know,
I think the key piece that you just said is the objectivity, right, and, and, you know, if I've got my head against a mosaic, I can see one tile right.
Somebody standing behind me can see the big picture and they might be able to pick out stuff in language that maybe I can't.
(24:10):
Yes, absolutely. And I think, you know, as folks doing what we do, when we talk to clients and we work on these projects, you know, we're really getting to know them, we're really getting, you know, we're diving deep into somebody's business.
And it's not a superficial, you know, skim over the water, we're literally diving deep. And, and I think that's where folks who don't know what they don't know, you know, it's, it's informational and educational for them to realize,
(24:45):
wow, all of this work goes into telling my story goes into telling my story of my business or you know, whatever the objective is but I think it's it's a misconception and I think honestly and I'm going to be very curious to watch over the next
you know, a couple years, how AI plays into this because I think a lot of folks are leaning into it in the absolute right way and then there's other folks who are thinking you could do more than it can.
(25:15):
You know, and it's like you really, you still need that discerning human brain to pull out what's important.
Yep. When you, and this is another side, this is what I knew this was going to happen, we were going to go on tangents because this is what we do.
When you say people are using AI, absolutely in the right way.
(25:38):
What are some ways that you think you're seeing or you've seen, or you follow trends, where you see, you know, especially in the content and writing world in the world like how, how are people using it responsibly and in the right way.
I think, I mean, I see it, I witness it, I don't work in tech but my husband, my partner does, and you know, they're using it in certain places for coding. It's not replacing the engineers is not replacing the developers but they're finding ways to use it to
(26:14):
help anybody who's technical is going to like laugh because I'm not going to do any justice this but you know for automation and they're trying to make their jobs a little more streamlined and a little more easy.
I think that's a great way to do it. I think using AI, if you're, if you are looking for a job, and you need help writing your cover letter, please, if you do that, don't stop there.
(26:40):
You can do that first draft and then go back and really make it yours. But some people, you know, I've experienced this with clients, some people, they can't get there just on conception they're really going to be better reacting to something so I think when you, you know, you can use that
draft idea, and, and you can come up with something that actually serves you well. I think, you know, some of the really small businesses that they don't have budgets to hire social media folks right so using it to help create some of their social posts.
(27:18):
You need to be oversight, because we don't want to lose it's what we started talking about right that authenticity, and that that personal voice, and we cannot forget that AI the chat GPT all that stuff pulls from the entire internet.
Millions, billions of voices so if you want it to be yours, you still need to go back so I like to think of it as a tool in the toolbox. It's not the tool in the toolbox, right you, or whoever you hired to help you do whatever that task is, is that the real, the real, you know, you're the person
(27:59):
who's filling the tool and I that still needs to happen so I'm sure there's a ton, a ton more of examples but I just like and I always caution at this point it's like yeah first draft it.
Great. And then you need to go back, you need to go back and put your own eyes and voice and words on it. So,
(28:23):
that's, that's the key to, you know, I have a blog on my website about plagiarism checkers and why you need them in the era of AI, because it just pulls from everywhere.
And, and, you know, and you're right I mean it doesn't.
It just doesn't pick up the nuances, you know, any of the social human touch human nuance it just doesn't it's not designed for that yet.
(28:49):
Yeah, and it's a ways away from that quite honestly I mean it's moving fast I won't say that but you know and I probably could be following a little more closely but what I do see and and have you know read people who are looking at it.
I think people who are looking at it how do we make, you know, our jobs better and literally better not not just, you know, good enough, but or how we use it to.
(29:19):
And so, you know, we've just done work for a local private school in Providence, and they have created a little committee, you know, a committee to look at how do we use a I to improve the education process, while not sort of, you know, making
(29:40):
it like, you know, the key like really teaching the kids responsibility about it and questioning and all that stuff so I thought that was, you know, phenomenal, but it's, it's going to be interesting to watch how it all plays out.
Especially in the content world.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I wanted to circle back to how you started you know when you would start working with your, with your clients to kind of get to know them. So you, you would give them a messaging questionnaire for them to fill out.
(30:15):
You would ask them about their vision, their mission, but you, you know, you, you, you phrase something you said you talked about tell me about your big why.
And I am sure this has brought out some pretty heartfelt stories in the conversations that you've had, you know, just, just like at the heart of why people are doing what they do, especially small business owners.
(30:38):
Can you share a story or two about some big why visions that you feel maybe made a difference.
You know, the funny thing is, I'm not, I'm having a hard time coming up with a particular story, but I will say that with working with the businesses that the smaller businesses, especially, I always had heard heartfelt stories right, and I think it really ties back to the
(31:05):
fact that a lot of these folks have an experience, and it changed their lives, right, whatever it is whether they they healed something, or somebody had invented something and it made a difference like something really profound.
And it made them go wow. This was so impactful. How do I make this, how do I help other people achieve this kind of, you know, results, or be this happy or you know you whatever whatever might have been and watching, you know, watching these folks and talking to them.
(31:45):
And it was, it was, you know, funny thing is a lot of them. They're so passionate about, you know, what it is that they're doing that there were times I have to come back and be like, Okay, I'm not a business coach but I need to say this to you.
I can't do this, unless you're actually making money. Right. So, you do have to land in a in the practical world here. Right. And I always, you know, I used to say to folks because part of the big why it's like what's the impact like what what's driving.
(32:15):
I would say to them. Sometimes it's a why you're not going to share. Right. Sometimes it might be too personal to share. Sometimes it's fantastic to put out on your on your website and it's a real driver.
But I found that folks, I've been very, very lucky to work with some amazing people and very it's been very gratifying to realize that the majority of folks that I've worked with do want to make a positive impact on their not just their clients and customers, but on their families their
(32:50):
own, but on their planet, you know, depending on how big it goes out. And understanding some of them would be planning me like okay, I know I've started this business and I'm not quite there yet but I'm planning by year five to have a charitable arm because I want certain
opportunities in my profits to go to this cause, you know, I'm that's beautiful that's wonderful. And then there was like you know it doesn't make sense for my business to do that.
(33:21):
I'm really personally in making money. So I can support this cause. So it was coming from from both sides. And I think what's joyful for me is that I got to hear those motivations, I got to hear those inspirational inspirational
(33:43):
stories that someone overcame a B or C, or they're living like this despite something else that happened to them, and sometimes again very personal stories, or sometimes people just got tired of something maybe just not being offered in a great
way, you know, and watching them and for me, finding those big why is, and I always said the reason you want to identify that big why, and I would tell them I said
(34:12):
when you do you put the outlet wherever you work, make sure it's like smack where you can see it. Because that's what you look at when you have the day where you go why am I even doing this.
What's the point this is just an awful day and you're down and you're slogging and nothing's going right. And you look at that big why, and you come back to that big picture and you say oh right this is just a temporary thing we all like every
(34:39):
business, every job, every day can offer absolute highs but you can also be really low right. And it's just the nature of business flows up down whatever and I feel like understanding that big why and understanding that vision.
And again, some of that needs to be become part of the messaging and you can do it in an appropriate way the original story the little too personal, because, again it brings that personality it brings that humanity to what you're doing and people connect with
(35:15):
people by based on emotional choices it's it's not. It's not not ever, but the majority of people make decisions based on how they feel. Right, or how they want to feel. Yeah, it's not. It's not a hard numbers game right.
So I that's why I feel like you know when you have that. And again, depending on the type of business product service that's offered. They'll be an appropriate amount of what you can share. Yeah, with your audience.
(35:44):
Right to make you feel real and genuine and that, and then they can feel good about supporting what you're doing and spending the money or their time with you or whatever it might be right. Right.
And stuff feel good circle. That's what happens. Yes, yes. Yes.
So you, you help your clients through their brand messaging, I'm sure they're, you know, they're, they're identifying their ideal customer profile their ICP, right.
(36:15):
And then they need to convey their credibility for solving said customers problems. And that happens through the brand messaging.
So talk us through the process you use to help your clients define how and who they will serve and I think we've talked a little bit about that. Yeah. So, again, approach. Actually that different really between service based and product based businesses because it all kind of comes back to that one same
(36:48):
sort of problem solving, but I have kind of a basic process that I from where I start and it's not complicated but it does force folks to really step into their customer clients shoes, right.
And, you know, identify and see what it is that they want or they need.
I talk about, you know, the jobs, you know, what is it that they're doing daily, weekly, monthly, annually, you know, and again depends on, on what arena you're in. I mean, maybe you are manufacturer and you produce something that is used once a year by some other
(37:23):
company right.
It seems small, but if that's a vital something that happens, it can derail the entire product, you know, business. So I, I say, what are they doing every day, what is it that is their challenge every day every month whatever.
What are they complaining about you know what is it that needs fixing like what's going to make their job easier. Right. So whether you're B to be or B to see.
(37:54):
And so, you know, this is the example of if you're maybe you're a daycare provider. You know, what's the problem that your clients have. They need somebody trustworthy to watch their children while you're at work.
Right. So you start going like what, what, what needs to be solved in that that scenario.
You identify that first and there may be more than one thing and that's that's again where you start looking at where's the priority and you start looking at the value prop and, and where, where you really slide in to fix their daily, weekly, monthly, annual problem whatever it might be.
(38:26):
Right, right, right.
I don't really like going at least from a negative approach, but it is informative to kind of position it from what's the pain that they have or what's the pain they're trying to avoid.
Because that really is helpful when you're looking at well what is that problem that needs to be solved you know what's stressing them out. What's creating more difficulty in their life and their daily work.
(38:54):
So you can help you identify if there's a risk or negative outcome to them for them, if they don't work for with you or buy your product from you. Right. So it's again, can you look at the value prop there. Right.
If they don't buy what you're offering is there a negative outcome from there from for them.
(39:17):
Because I think that can be really informative. And then of course the opposite and the positive side is what's the game right what's their benefit of buying from you working with you and for me this definitely ties to the value proposition.
Right, because that's like, yeah, I work with you, yeah, I bought from you and I feel great because my problem is solved. And I think, you know, when you look at the three.
(39:46):
The three buckets like that.
You're going to see a pattern you're going to see something very clear through line or you're going to see the holes and whatever was it you were thinking, you know, so that's kind of why I like looking at it. It's, it's again it's not complicated, but it's there.
And I'll say with service based business owners.
I also ask them to start looking at.
(40:12):
You know, identifying people they like to be around. Right. People who have personality qualities that they like, because if you're a service based, and I've worked with a lot of like therapists and holistic healers and you know that arena as well as
other service based businesses. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a personal relationship it's a more personal relationship than a product based correct. So I say to them, like, look, you have to be comfortable working with these people, because if you're not comfortable you're never going to get to that place of trust, and then you're
(40:49):
going to have a problem because they're not going to trust you to do it. Right. So that's another piece for the service folks and I'm like, Hey, what are those traits that you know you like, where the people that you you never hesitate to pick up the phone,
where the people that you leave them and you feel joyful. Now, why, like, what makes you happy like is it because they listen is it because they're honest is it because they're funny like, you know, it's, it's not the end all be all but I feel like for service based folks.
(41:18):
It's an important piece to identify because, yeah, again, it comes but like, without trust, you're not going to, you're not going to have the success you want on either side.
Yeah, yeah. Two thoughts. When you were talking about sort of the game for working with you versus the risks of not working with you.
(41:41):
I've had some experiences where I feel like you have to be careful with the risks thing because I've had worked with some people who just like, they really dig into that doom and gloom part of the story and it's like, you can take that so far.
But then I think you don't want to scare your potential prospects because you know, to the point where they're like, you know, this is, you know, so I think that's important.
(42:07):
And then I love what you said about the service, you know, you know, doing your business development and your prospecting looking for people who you like are going to like to work with.
I think, you know, being, you know, first couple of years of business, you are like customer customer customer customer customer.
And then a service based business, you have the potential to have that customer for a very long time and have them be a repeat customer, you know, like, if I have a customer that I'm working on a conference on and then there's the next conference is coming up if we worked really well together,
(42:43):
they're going to hire me back for the next conference.
So, but, but like understanding all of the personality dynamics I think is really important as well and like, who can I work with and and you know, where do I have to bend a little bit to kind of, you know, so we can all you know, we can all gel here.
Yeah, I love that point that's really important.
(43:06):
I think it's a really, I think it is important and I always say folks like, you know, you create your ideal customer profile. And I always think about it like, okay that's that line zero right if we're going to kind of put on a graph.
And that's your ideal that is your perfect person.
You get to decide, especially with service based, half are off that line, you're willing to go right. And again with a lot of folks in their early years of business.
(43:35):
And I always say I'm like, if they can't pay you. They're not your ideal customer right now. Right. Once you're, you're flowing and you're going and you've got profitable profitability.
If you want to have some pro bono work. If you want to have a charitable arm that allow you know that's great, but you can't do that.
(43:56):
Until your business is absolutely strong. Right. So it's just understanding what it is that you're going for there and the same with products. Right. If you can't afford the product they're not your customer.
Yeah, you know, yes you can look at your pricing but my experiences that most business owners, especially newer to newer, they underpriced to begin with so it's not like you need, you know, like that's not the issue.
(44:25):
You can't, you can't give yourself away for free. You're in your own business or you have a hobby and you just have to decide. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, especially if you, yeah, the price is off too low then it is just a hobby that it's a passion project.
Exactly. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as you know that's what you're doing. Yeah.
Well that is all the time we have for today this time just flew by. I didn't even get to ask you a bunch of questions because we were just just talking about it to many asides, you know, can't help myself.
(44:57):
Yeah, they were, you know, made it interesting.
But thank you Deb so much for being here and and sharing your expertise around messaging because I think it's one of the hardest things for any small business medium sized business, even, you know, it is one of the hardest things to be able to do is to put together.
(45:19):
Absolutely. And it's something that I love to do. And again, I think it comes back to that, you know, the creative part I mean I can see this big picture and I can see what we want it to go but my goodness there's all these little pieces that have to be attended to in order for that picture to, you know, your mosaic, you know, analogy it's like, all the little pieces
make the big picture whole and you really do need them all.
(45:44):
Yeah, people have to take the time to make sure that all those pieces are conveyed. Thank you.
Thank you.
And to our listeners, whether you hear us locally from the BTV studios in Bedford, Massachusetts or across the globe on such podcast channels as Spotify, Apple podcasts or Amazon Prime.
(46:05):
Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode and we'll see you next time. Happy storytelling.
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