#127 - David Sinclair - The Steep Stuff Podcast

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
I'm your host, James L'Oriello,and today I'm so excited to
welcome David Sinclair back onthe pod.
David has had an absolutelycrazy season and came on to talk
all about it, not just thesecond place at CCC, but also
helped Team USA achieve a fourthoverall standing at the World
Mountain Running Championship.
On top of that, David had afifth place finish at the Broken

(00:21):
Arrow Ascent and a second placeat the Broken Arrow 46K in 2025,
which got him on Team USA.
On top of that, David has had anabsolute crazy year, won the
Loon Mountain race, and also hada third place at the Mount
Washington Road Race, amongstmany other finishes.
David came on to chat all abouthis season, and we we really
dove deeply, I think, this timemore into CCC.

(00:43):
We did break down Broken Arrow alittle bit.
David had kind of been dealingwith some injury and was able to
kind of pull off that brokenarrow finish, which I think was
one of the most like craziestawesome things that he was able
to do all season.
But yeah, a lot of thisconversation was surrounded
around his CCC and what he didto get himself on that podium
and just uh yeah, had himself agreat finish on the day.

(01:04):
So, guys, I hope you enjoy thisone.
Always a fan of David Sinclair,one of the best mountain runners
on the planet right now.
Um, we also did talk a littlebit about trading.
We got into some heart raterelated stuff, I think it was
kind of fun.
Uh, some good stuff you guys aregoing to take away from it.
So, without further ado, DavidSinclair.

(02:17):
Ladies and gentlemen, we'veDavid Sinclair.
Welcome back to the Steep Stuffpodcast.
How's it going, man?
It's going really well.
Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Yeah, man.
Excited to uh catch back up withyou.
The last time we chatted, Ithink we talked like just before
Broken Arrow.
I was trying to get you on for auh it was like right after Mount

(02:39):
Wash and just before BrokenArrow.
And I know you were dealing withsome uh, I know there was a lot
of up in the air, you weren'tsure if you were gonna race and
then you did it and you hadyourself a day and it's
qualified for worlds.
And it's been just a kind of acrazy thing to follow.
Uh how how would you grade yourseason with everything?
Like how how would you, if youwere to put it on a grade scale?
Like what do you think?
Because to all of us watching,it was it's been amazing to

(03:01):
follow.

SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
Oh yeah, I think I'd give myself an an A.
You know, it's been definitelynot not how I expected it to go.
Uh some ups and downs, but uhyeah, I can't I can't complain.
I definitely exceeded exceededmy goals with second place at
CCC.
And yeah, it was it was a littlerough in the spring with some
teller tendinitis.
And uh yeah, I I was a littleworried for a bit there that

(03:23):
maybe the the whole season wasgonna be shot and was able to
able to cross-train through it.
And yeah, I think it ended upmaybe being a blessing in
disguise for the the rest of myyear, having that little
setback.

SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
So crazy.
It's weird, man.
Like, I don't know, maybe youcan provide some commentary to
this.
It's like us in the statesalways knew you to be like one
of the the best talents we'vehad.
Like come onto the trail runningscene, but now that you were
able to do it at CCC and likekind of show the world, has
things changed for you?
Like have things changed at all?

SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
Definitely feels like a little bit different.
Like at least like when I talkto other people, like I I don't
feel like my result at CCC waslike, you know, I I kind of
believed in myself and don't seeit as being like you know, that
much bigger of a result thansome other races I've had in the
US.
So, but definitely likerealizing like wow, like a lot
of people were watching, and alot of people noticed that

(04:14):
result has been definitelyeye-opening and pretty cool to
yeah, see people likerecognizing that performance is
yeah, a really good day.

SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
Oh, it was an amazing day.
We'll get into it, we'll diveinto it in a little bit.
But yeah, I just thought I wasgonna give you your flowers just
because, like, man, like well,not only just like what a
result, but like we all knew,like we all kind of figured like
it was either gonna be like youor Eli or kind of that dynamic,
and we'll we'll talk about thatas well.
It's kind of a fun dynamicbetween you guys.
How are you feeling post-worlds?
Like that was uh kind of a funlittle trip for you.

(04:42):
How are you doing as far asrecovery goes?

SPEAKER_01 (04:45):
Uh I'm feeling really good again.
Like it's I'm I'm a littlebittersweet on the performance
because I felt like I recoveredreally well from uh CCC and had
a little good block of training,and then just it, yeah, that it
was such a stacked field andsuch a hard course that I was a
little humbled over there, but II don't I don't think I had had
had a great day.

(05:05):
And I've I'm I'm back and I'mstill motivated and jump right
back into training here inVermont.
So uh yeah, I was I was hopingfor a top 10, and you know, it
was still still fun to mix it upwith the other US guys and we
came came close but ended upjust off the podium as a team.
But yeah, it was an incredibleexperience, so fun to be part of
like TM USA, and it was my firsttime at Worlds where we had all

(05:26):
four different disciplines andlike this this huge crew and
just so much energy.
So I'm yeah, just honored tohave have gotten to go over
there and experience it.

SPEAKER_00 (05:34):
Dude, I was laughing so hard.
Like, I guess did you travelover there with Tom Hooper and
and and Paul?

SPEAKER_01 (05:39):
Yeah, I was on the little like the the with the
coaches from from the EastCoast, and we went to the
airport at Boston, and we weresupposed to have a red eye at 11
o'clock at night.
And at 11 o'clock at night theysaid, oh, they're gonna delay us
two hours, and at 1 a.m.
they said two more hours, andthen at 3 a.m.
they said uh the keep theflights canceled, go home.
So I was already cutting it alittle bit close on on travel,

(06:02):
just because I knew like the twotrips to Europe was gonna be, I
didn't want to like be overthere too long and away from
home too long, and yeah, nosleep in the airport, and then
having to catch red eye the nextnight, getting to span a day, a
day late.
I think maybe just inretrospect, I should have gone
over a little earlier and hadsome time to like check out that
course because it was like 45kand 12,000 feet of vert, really

(06:27):
techy, and just yeah, wasdefinitely not fully adjusted to
the time zone and got kind ofjust destroyed my legs on the
first climb and descent and thenhad a had a rough next two hours
in the the race over there.

SPEAKER_00 (06:39):
Oh wow.
You were I mean, I read yourInstagram write up and you were
pretty candid about it.
Like you you said you were ableto kind of you hit like a pretty
low low and were able to kind oflike pull it back together.
Would you would you agree withthat?

SPEAKER_01 (06:49):
Or yeah, it was like a really interesting day just
because I, you know, I went outand it was a huge pack on the
first climb, and I could justfeel like I wasn't like I was
like within contention, but Ifelt like I was just like didn't
feel comfortable, was workingkind of hard.
I paired up with uh NoahWilliams and we tried to work
together over the top and on thedescent, and then uh we were

(07:11):
probably like in around 20thplace after the first climb and
descent, and then he kind oflike took off on the next climb,
and I just had had dead legs,and you know, then next thing I
knew, 10, 10, 12 people hadpassed me on the next climb, and
it was like I just had no fightand and no popping my legs.
I was like, well, this isn'twhere I want to be.
Um got really like mentallydown, and then uh just kind of

(07:36):
like I tried to keep pushing,but wasn't going the wrong going
the wrong way.
And then uh get to the secondaid station, it's like you know,
there's still two hours or soleft.
And I I realized I was stilllike the third guy for the US
team, so every place and everysecond was gonna count.
So I just like yeah, keptpounded a couple gels and
decided to like to to work, tryto work my way back up one place

(07:59):
at a time and had a really goodlike last last two descents and
last final climb.
And yeah, was able to go fromabout I think it worked my way
down to 30th and then ended backin 19th.
So it was like if I could havelike just had a little bit
better the next like the middletwo hours was where I lost all
the time.
And I think on on a good day itcould have been top 10 and we

(08:21):
would have been right in themetal hunt for the US.
So but yeah, that it was justlike a different type of racing.
It was a real sky race.
So uh the you could see the therunners on the podium really
specialize in skyrunning andkind of made it their their A
goal for the whole season.
So yeah, you you live and youlearn, and next time you gotta
you gotta really target targetthe that world championship race

(08:44):
if you if you want to deliver onthe day.

SPEAKER_00 (08:46):
I feel like we'll figure it out in 2027.
It's gonna be a much differentcourse too, because South Africa
is just so different.
And with it being in November, Ithink it'll be better for just
everybody, especially theAmericans.
Like as long as people aren'ttoo pooped out from the summer,
I think they'll there's ampletime for recovery and just it'll
just be a different, just kindof a different game.
I I gotta ask, I gotta ask youthis, especially for someone

(09:07):
like you who is so comfortablebeing at the front of a race,
not afraid to take it out hard,not afraid to lead a race.
Was it weird being back a littlebit?
Like, how did you fight backlike the negative self-talk and
like getting behind?
Like, were you able to pull ittogether?
Were you in like a really,really low like that you hadn't
experienced before?
Like, how were you able to kindof fight through that?

SPEAKER_01 (09:29):
I mean, it's just yeah, it's it's hard.
Like, I've had had a good year,so I think I'm getting a little
more used to like not beingafraid to mix it up and put
myself to the front.
So, like when when the page justwent out really hot, even on
like the first mile, it's like adownhill on a road, and you you
realize you we start climbing,and it's there's 30, 40 guys all
like vying for position as youstart climbing on single track.

(09:50):
And yeah, you just kind of haveto accept it.
I knew it was gonna be a be areally difficult race and really
deep field, but uh definitelylike I'm used to like being
chill at the race and the firstclimb and first ascent, and then
I'm used to like when I racesmart, then all of a sudden like
it starts to feel a littleeffortless and you're picking
people off like on the secondclimb.
And so to have it go the wrongway.

(10:12):
And all of a sudden on thesecond climb, like I was just
getting past, and and I was liketrying to push, but yeah, just
didn't feel like I had thatmental mental energy to really
like dig deep or the legs to begoing the way I wanted to.
Was it was pretty hard mentally,so so I think I gotta give
credit to like just the thefans, the coaches, and then just

(10:32):
like that, you know, you'rerepresenting the US, so you like
the whole country is kind ofdepending on you.
And I knew I was the third, likein third place for the US team
in the top three scored.
So I just kind of told myself tolike, even if it's not where you
want to be, you just gotta likeyou know, try to stay mentally
engaged and just you just keeptrying.
And then yeah, I don't know ifit was a time change or

(10:52):
whatever, but it was like all ofa sudden like something clicked,
and I felt like I woke up andthen and then it was actually
really fun the last two hours orso because I was all sudden like
picking people off and you knowflying by them.
Like I was kind of hoping to bedoing the whole last, you know,
like 30k of the race.

SPEAKER_00 (11:09):
It's crazy, dude.
I thank you for being candidabout it.
I appreciate it.
Outside of the race itself, theexperience, like getting, you
know, having the roommateexperience and then also the
food and everything.
Like, what was your takeawayfrom that?
Like A, like was a good venue?
Like, what did you think?
Especially because like this isnot the first time you've
competed for Team USA.

SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
Yeah, it was like completely different experience
compared to the the last twotimes I was on like a trail
running worlds team because I Ihadn't been since 2019 in
Argentina, and so I hadn't hadall four disciplines.
So we just had we had way moresupport from staff.
Um, it just felt like there wasso much more media and so many

(11:49):
more eyes on it, where in thepast it had kind of been like,
oh, it's a technically the worldchampionships, but everyone kind
of knew like not necessarily allthe best runners were targeting
on it, but it felt like almostall the all the elite runners
were were there and giving ashot.
So it just felt like way, waybigger and yeah, so so much
positive energy.
Yeah, like I can't the the USstaff was so supportive and

(12:12):
incredible, and yeah, hangingout with all these other like US
team members.
And sometimes you're at racesand you're like with the same
guys, and they're like thecompetition there.
So it was really fun to be like,oh, they're we're all teammates
now, and yeah, working together,got to got to know them a little
bit better.
It's really fun.
Yeah, I got to room with uhSeth, so we we had a good time.

SPEAKER_00 (12:34):
Sweet.
Hi, the boy, your boy, dude.
I gotta ask you this.
So doing the USA schemo kind ofon the World Cup circuit, I
guess a little bit last winter,and then kind of comparing it to
maybe this experience for USAmountain running.
How would you compare it?
Like obviously it's a completelydifferent experience, but is it
just way more put together onthe schemo side because now it's

(12:56):
an Olympic sport?
Like, how would you kind ofsquare those two?

SPEAKER_01 (13:01):
I I guess I don't know exactly what you're asking,
but they're they they they feelpretty comparable.
Yeah.
Like in some ways, like the theuh like the media side trail
running has just gotten so bigthat it feels like I was at the
like the ski mountaineeringworld championships, and like
the the athletes aren'tincredible and the levels so
high, but it honestly feels likeright now like trail running
maybe has more more momentum.

SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
Really?
That's what I was kind ofasking.
Like, do you like more so alongthe lines like has trail running
really caught up in the senselike it seems like for this
world a lot of folks, likespecifically like the Spanish
team, the Italian team, theFrench team, like really made it
their um like those athletestake it quite seriously.
But it seems like the USA hasbeen doing really well.
But also just on a world stage,the sport itself seems to have

(13:46):
like really caught up andcompetes against some of those
other um, maybe just like on abig stage, if you will, where
it's a little bit different.
Maybe it hasn't been in previousyears.

SPEAKER_01 (13:57):
Yeah, I would I I would agree with that.
And it felt definitely like onthe on the same level with the
you know, like the the calibreof athletes and how how
seriously they're you know,they're pretty much all you
know, the top schemo athletesare pretty much training
full-time for schemo now.
And same thing with thesetrailrunners that are targeting,
like they're they're dialed tolike picking their discipline
and kind of like a lot of themwere training all summer just to

(14:20):
prepare for like the specificcourse at the world
championships.
And I think it's yeah, it'sreally cool to see that the like
the level has just gotten soincredibly deep between all four
of those disciplines.

SPEAKER_00 (14:31):
Interesting.
Are you going to it?
Seems like I know Cam andcompany seems to have like are
starting to transition back tothe schemo stuff.
I know you and I were talkingbefore offline.
You said Vermont's still alittle warm.
Hopefully you guys get, youknow, start getting some fall
weather soon.
Um, are is the like kind of thegoal for winter gonna be to
transition back to schemo, or isit gonna be more full-time trail

(14:53):
running?
Like what are you like what areyou gonna be doing?

SPEAKER_01 (14:56):
Yeah, so right right now I'm just realizing that like
the the trail running's beenreally fun.
It's been I've had a goodseason, so uh like I'm actually
I can kind of call myself aprofessional trail runner, and I
like I love schemo and it's partof like I'm passionate about it.
But right now for me, I thinklike trail trail running is
maybe the the the bigger focus.
Um that doesn't mean I'm won'tbe going over to Europe and

(15:19):
doing some schema world cups.
Um, but I'm gonna be targetinglike schemo races more in March.
Um I decided not to not to keepchasing like the Olympic dreams
because it's like just the shortevents and I've have not been
putting in the the work thissummer to prepare for like the
short disciplines andtransitions and all that.
And yeah, and not that excitedor motivated right now to uh

(15:42):
like start doing four hours aday of schemo transition
training in in the yard.
But uh I definitely want to getover there.
I'm gonna team up with CamSmith.
We're gonna do Pyramento, likethe four-day partner race, and
I'll do a few like individualWorld Cups uh in March.
So I've got a little more timeto get ready for schemo.
And I think I'm gonna like yeah,structure my my season around

(16:04):
doing that in March and thenkind of easing back into running
and hopefully do a big build forWestern states.

SPEAKER_00 (16:09):
Okay.
Oh wow, dude.
Western states is gonna be itnext year.
That's exciting.
That's uh that's that's the Imean, you obviously got a golden
ticket before back at Canyons afew years back.
Um, but this is this is it.
You're gonna do it, which isreally exciting.
Are you are you super stoked forit, especially having like lived
not too far from there inCalifornia?

SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
Yeah, it's really cool just because I spent the
like five winners out there andyou know the the Western State
Trail was in my backyard.
And yeah, when I got that firstgolden ticket back in 2022, it
was just such a such a quickturnaround, and it was my first
hundred K.
And I just like, yeah, wasn'twasn't totally sure that I
wanted to or was gonna be readyto run 100 miles.
So now it's been a few moreyears.
I've been like, you know,following along, spent some more

(16:50):
time training on the course, andjust yeah, so so excited to go
back.
Uh definitely nervous about it'sanother jump in distance, and
the the course and the heat willbe like a totally different from
a lot of the races I've donewell on.
So it's gonna be a hugechallenge, but yeah, I'm really
excited for it.

SPEAKER_00 (17:06):
I think where you live too is actually like not a
bad place to train for it.
Like just speaking, Vermont ingeneral, like endless dirt
roads, lots of you can get adecent amount of vertical like
up down on those dirt roads aswell.
The only thing you have tosquare away is just a lot of
time in the sauna.
But outside of that, I thinkit's it's not a bad place at all
to train and get ready for it.

SPEAKER_01 (17:24):
Yeah, like the rolling steep dirt roads,
actually, like plus plus plentyof trail, um, like ski rays and
stuff.
If you want to get really steep,there's there's plenty, like I
think it's very underrated.
We have some of the best liketraining for any kind of trail
running in in the world righthere.
The the the biggest part will begetting ready for the heat

(17:45):
because Vermont Vermont doesn'tget the same kind of heat, and
especially like in the in thespring, it can still be a little
cold for a while.
But yeah, we got we got accessto a sauna and uh I gotta think
about it a little bit more, butmaybe like a a little targeted
trip out sometime in the springto like see the course or do a
little more like Westerntraining in the heat is
definitely in the cards.

SPEAKER_00 (18:06):
For sure.
Let's let's get into that alittle bit at East Coast because
I don't know.
I've always I'm so happy thatlike you know, we've got
yourself, Eric Lapuma, DanKurtz, like there's a good
lineup and Lauren Gregory,although I think she's a boulder
right now.
But at least there's there'slike a decent little contingent
of Northeast trail runners atthe professional level to put

(18:27):
more um just to put to continueto put the northeast on the map.
Like I think there's just such agood diversity of races there.
There's such a good diversity oftraining grounds.
Um, and I feel like you thisyear really just put it on the
map, especially with the CCCperformance and showing more
people who you are and whereyou're from.
Maybe talk a little bit aboutthe East Coast and just like why
it's special to you, why it'sgood training grounds and more

(18:48):
of that.

SPEAKER_01 (18:49):
Yeah, I mean, I'm just I'm I'm I'm proud and I
like training here.
It's it's where I grew up andkind of like I owe the athlete
that I am today to to growing uphere with you know cross-country
skiing in the winters, and yeah,we did a lot of our cross
training and in the summer toget ready for ski season on the
long trail or the appalaciantrail and just like running the
super gnarly, steep, technical,rooty, often muddy trails here.

(19:11):
So I think it really does likeif you can if you can train here
and like you're up here, you canyou can excel in any course.
Um, so yeah, I think like in thein the pro running ranks in the
US right now, like there's a lotof people that think like, oh,
you gotta like you gotta liveout west and you gotta be at be
at altitude, especially becausea lot of more of the like high
profile races are at altitude.

(19:33):
And I think maybe for someathletes it it helps a little
bit to be training at altitude,but absolutely you don't you
don't need to be like trainingin Boulder or yeah, somewhere
somewhere in altitude to uhsucceed.
So it's been been pretty fun tomove back here and yeah, back to
my roots and show that you canstill keep competing at the
highest level training on theeast coast.

SPEAKER_00 (19:55):
When you you can be as candid about this as you
want, I'm just out of purecuriosity, because I I do feel
like as an athlete in the sport,there is a bit of a brand bias
with folks that either livefront-range Colorado or in
California or more so in thePacific Northwest.
Whereas I feel like lessathletes get opportunities in
the Northeast for some reason.
I don't know what that is, butdid you experience any of that

(20:16):
when you were looking for acontract?

SPEAKER_01 (20:19):
Um, I yeah, I I I haven't had any issue, but I
definitely think there are likea lot of incredible athletes in
the East, and especially thatare like really good at like
specifically like East Coast,like super gnarly technical
shell running, and maybe theydon't have the same like web
speed for flat running thatabsolutely like if we had a few
more high profile races here,you'd see them like you know

(20:42):
outperforming some of some someof the guys and women with
contracts.
So uh yeah, I definitely thinkthe the East Coast could could
get a little more credit.

SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
Yeah, I'm excited because I mean now that the
Cirque series is at least on theshort trail side, it seems like
it's like you could do a wholeseason short trail uh in the
northeast between MountWashington.
Now there's Cirque Series races,you've got quite a few with the
Ara Viper races and uh justother things.
Like there's uh you know, evenLoon, like Loon on a good year
is super competitive.

(21:11):
You won it this year and haveraced it in the past.
Like there's quite a few goodNortheast races that I think are
just like short trail wise, it'sjust they're very slept on.

SPEAKER_01 (21:21):
Definitely.
Yeah, there's I mean, there'sthere's tons of tons of good
races here, and they don't maybeget quite as much media
coverage, but they're yeah,they're very challenging.
And I did did I use a lot ofthem this year to like as kind
of like test and just fitnessbuilders in my my buildup for
CCC and it it worked reallywell.
Yeah, yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
I was surprised to see you see do Mount Washington.
You think you go back and dothat?
Maybe obviously next year isgonna be different because
that's right in the mix of uhWestern states, but in the
future, I mean, would you goback and do it, especially like
more full course and not shortcourse?

SPEAKER_01 (21:50):
Yeah, it was my my second time running Mount
Washington the the first year.
I just had a really bad, badrace.
I was like just excited to uh togive it another shot.
So it was a little bit of abummer that I shortened it to
half half distance, althoughthat ended up being really good
prep for broken arrow the nextweek.
But I definitely want to run runthe full course on like a good
weather year and see if I couldget close to like one hour, like

(22:12):
kind of mythical mark up the theauto road climb.

SPEAKER_00 (22:15):
It's true.
It's such a cool course, too.
Like I I'm gonna try to get innext year.
Definitely want to do it one ofthese years at least.
I want to try and like pair itwith a Cirque series race so I
can like do back-to-back weeksof racing while I'm out there,
and I think that would it wouldbe kind of neat.
Um, dude, let's shift gears.
Let's start, let's get into CCC.
The first question I have foryou outside of the performance
and the race itself is like nowthat you are like a

(22:37):
professional, professional inthe sport and like you're doing
your thing, is it still fun foryou?
Has anything changed?
Is it different now being aprofessional or do you still
love it?

SPEAKER_01 (22:46):
I still love it.
Yeah.
I think you know, it's like it'sdefinitely a little different
doing it full time, but likehonestly, it's really awesome
right now that I have have theflexibility to like, you know,
work on recovery and have haveas much time as I need.
So I'm just yeah, running,running, skiing full-time right
now.
And it's been been been a reliefto be like, I don't, I don't

(23:08):
really need to like have asecond full-time job.
So it's allowing me to do allthe little things, like make
sure I'm getting in the gym,doing, doing heat training,
doing mobility and yoga, liketaking a nap, but I'm doing
doubles.
And uh yeah, like those littlethings definitely add up.
So it's been been fun to uh tosee how it goes.

(23:29):
And yeah, right now it's workingwell.
So like when it's when it'sgoing well, it's really, really
fun.
Like when you get a littleinjured or like you're not
getting the results you want,then all of a sudden you're
like, wow, it's really toughbeing a pro runner.
So I can't can't complain rightnow because I'm I'm feeling
pretty strong and yeah, myresults have been good.
So uh yeah, it's fun.
I try to like keep some balancein the training where like it

(23:51):
was a little bit of a grind inthe buildup to CCC because I had
to be really careful buildingmileage with the like coming off
patellotendinitis.
So it was a lot of just likegrinding hours on on the road
bike, just because that waslower impact.
And then like some reallytargeted, like I'd go to the go
to the local ski area in MountEllen and just like be running

(24:11):
laps on the uh the work roadbecause I knew that was what was
gonna simulate uh and prepare mefor CCC the best.
So like I I don't want to bedoing that all the time, but for
like two months in my my buildupto a CCC where it was like I was
feeling some pressure, but yeah,it was a good challenge.
I like I like the challenge oflike figuring out how to like

(24:33):
pick a race and how to you knowbe smart about preparing for it.
But I but yeah, I also like somesome variety, so it's been fun
like the last month or so sinceCCC to have a little more
flexibility and training andjust be like going exploring the
the local trails and yeah,having fun in the in the east
coast mountains.
We've had a like the super dry,like incredible stretch of

(24:54):
weather, and it's been likewe're definitely in a drought
right now, so that's not good.
But in terms of like trailrunning, like the trails are all
dry and fast, and yeah, it'sbeen just a lot of beautiful
days.
So I've been just yeah, lovingbeing a road runner and just
going out and yeah, training abunch and enjoying the Vermont
Mountains.
Doing the thing.

(25:14):
I love it.
Do you go up Mansfield at all?

SPEAKER_00 (25:16):
Like, is that too is that far from you?

SPEAKER_01 (25:18):
Or it's only like 40 minutes, so I need to get up
there more often.

SPEAKER_00 (25:21):
It's a sweet mountain.
I did it for the first time thispast summer, and it was like,
wow.
Like I I just did the serviceroad climb to I guess that like
branch off trail above uh belowthe uh or I guess above the uh
lift, and then took like thattechnical trail to the ridge,
and I was like, this is awesomefor the northeast.
This is dope.
So yeah, there's there's goodstuff out there.
Yeah.

(25:41):
All right, let's let's talk moreCC Occ and CCC.
I gotta ask you this.
What was the reason?
Because you're such a good 50krunner, like not just the best
we have in the United States,but like one of the best in the
world.
What made you choose CCC overOCC?

SPEAKER_01 (25:58):
Mainly just that like I wanted a new a new
challenge.
So I thought that like I knew Icould on a good day have a have
a great result in OCC, but yeah,like the 100k CCC just seemed
like a bigger, a bigger, newerchallenge.
And yeah, I was I was excited tobecause it had been since 2022
was the last time I tried a 100kand it like it went pretty well,

(26:22):
but I was also like a little bitcrushed and got kind of injured
coming off of it.
And yeah, I just wanted towanted to structure my whole
season around CCC as it justfelt it felt like a little more
prestigious as a race than OCC.
And yeah, it definitely scaredme to to be going up in distance
and against like such a such aninternational, like deep field

(26:45):
that yeah, it just was was thething that captured my
imagination and yeah, had gotme, had me motivated to put up
put a whole summer towardstraining for it.

SPEAKER_00 (26:54):
Let's talk about the competition.
Obviously, it's no secret, likeyou and Eli have had like it's
been really fun since JFK lastyear to see you guys kind of go
at it in this like really funbest of the best, who's the best
American 50 mile to 50k athlete.
It's been really cool.
Uh, what was it like being notjust teammates with him on Team

(27:15):
USA this year, but also likecompeting with him back and
forth?
You got it seems like he getsthe best of you sometimes, you
get the best of him sometimes.
It's very close.
It's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
Yeah, it's definitely one of those things
where I think we've both beenlike, oh man, we keep choosing
the same races just for liketotally independent reasons.
But yeah, I've been trying tolike it can be like, oh man,
Eli's there again and he beatme.
Like it would have been likebroken air.
It's like, oh, it could havebeen a big win if Eli hadn't
showed up.
But uh it's it's fun to bepushing each other.
And yeah, he's he's a great guy,so it was really fun to like at

(27:48):
worlds to be on on the same teamas him.
Unfortunately, we didn't like hehe was just gone, so I I never
saw him out on on course thewhole day.
But uh yeah, it's been been afun, fun little back and forth
between him.

SPEAKER_00 (28:01):
So I don't know when we'll we'll meet meet next next,
but I don't want to call it arivalry, but it's like one of
the coolest American rivalriesin short trail that like, or
like I guess Ultra now that wekind of have.
It's kind of neat.
I don't know.
It's fun to follow you too.
Um, like I said, especiallysince JFK, like it's always so
close.
Let's talk, um, all right, let'sget into the race proper,
starting in core my air.

(28:23):
I think I heard on anotherpodcast, and maybe you can tell
a little bit more to this, justbecause I know it's always a
circus at these races.
Did you so I guess you stayedover in Cormac Air before the
race?
Is that correct?
And then and before the start?

SPEAKER_01 (28:35):
Can you talk a little bit about that?
Yeah, we I spent two weeks inlike Shamini before the race
getting ready, and I previewedall like the entire course and a
few of the key parts that I wasconcerned about, like two to
three times.
So it was really good to spendthat time over there, be like
totally adjusted to the climateand the time change.
And then just to avoid the zoo,we went over and stayed in the

(28:58):
hotel the night before uh inKormyyer, which was like, man,
wake up and I think I like Ileft the hotel at like 8 20 in
the morning for a nine o'clockstart.
It was the two-minute walk.
So that was pretty great interms of like logistics and just
like ease of ease of gettingover there.

SPEAKER_00 (29:17):
What did you think of the zoo?
Like the media hype, the mediacircus before?
Like, did you have a lot of likedid craft have you doing stuff
that you had to do, like to meetfans and stuff like that, or was
it pretty low-key for you?

SPEAKER_01 (29:29):
I think we were a little more low-key as a brand.
Like, we weren't doing a lot oflike group runs and stuff, but
like I I'm definitely not likesuper, super social and don't
love like putting myself outthere.
So I like to like when I'm thereat a race, I'm there to there to
race.
And honestly, like the moreunder the radar I can be, like
it's just easier for mypersonality.

(29:50):
So so being there with craft andlike you know, going out to do
some photo shoots and some somefilming and and interviews, I
definitely like was not likehaving a ton of that kind of.
Of stuff, but it definitely waslike different being at a such a
big race and being there withthe whole craft team.
But yeah, it was overall it wasawesome because they had like
they brought up physio and theywere you know just like yeah

(30:11):
taking taking care of me, butalso like the flip side is
definitely when like when you'rebeing being treated so well and
like you definitely feel feelthe pressure a little bit.
So it was my like first likereally big like race since being
sponsored by craft and Idefinitely like was ready for
the race to start just like youknow I was nervous like you've
been pouring your soul intotraining for this race for like

(30:33):
the last three months and hadsome ups, ups and downs, but
you're like you know that likeokay, on the right day, you can
definitely deliver a podium, butyou know, you you want to do it,
you're putting that pressure onyourself.
So I was I was quite ready to uhjust get the get the gun to go
off and start running like thatwhole last week while I was just
like tapering and kind ofwaiting.

SPEAKER_00 (30:54):
Yeah, I'm sure, dude.
I I couldn't imagine just likethe it's the long wait.
Uh and by the way, it's so muchfun following that race on like
the with the live stream andstuff like that.
Like, I think UTMB does anamazing job, especially on like
for CCC.
What is that?
It's that first 4,500 foot climbor whatever it is coming out of
Cormaill, and just watching youguys bury yourselves.
Like it's it's it's pretty coolto follow along.

(31:17):
I I know you said there was somenerves at the start line, but
damn, those races go off sofast.
Like, obviously, it's not yourfirst time racing in Europe.
You've raced in Europe a bunch,but like was it faster than
normal?
Was it within range?
Like, how did you establishposition?
Like, what were all the thingsgoing off in maybe the first few
miles for you?

SPEAKER_01 (31:34):
Yeah, definitely it started fast, and you know, like
it just when you're you knowit's gonna be a 10 plus hour
race.
So you're definitely like haveto just like if you if you feel
good, you just kind of go withthe flow and you're like you
know that it's not necessarilyan effort that you're gonna be
able to sustain the whole way.
But I was I was hoping to be alittle smarter and maybe like
let the let the leaders getfurther ahead and just kind of

(31:56):
run my own race.
But in the heat of the moment, Iwas feeling like really good
with adrenaline and everything,and it just kind of like I knew
I was working hard, but it justfelt good.
So I ended up staying staying upin the top 10 and kind of worked
my way up to the lead group bythe top of that climb and then
just yeah, was just kind ofenjoying it.
So uh it was really fun runningin like the lead pack for the

(32:18):
first five hours with yeah, Eliand Francesco and Drew, and we
were definitely just likefeeling good rolling along, and
then all of some like it startedto get hot uh after uh you know,
like 40k or whatever, andthere's like the 12, there's
like 20k of mostly downhillbefore you do the climb up to

(32:39):
Sean Bexlock, and we were alllike all of a sudden I think
like we were moving pretty well,and especially like Francesco
was pushing the pace becausehe's such a good on that like
the road sections and thegradual down, and the rest of us
were getting a littleuncomfortable.
But at that point, like I'vebeen running near the lead pack
for four hours, you know, I'mjust gonna like let anyone go at
that point.
And then uh we finally startedto climb, and my legs felt great

(33:01):
climbing up to Shuntach's lack,so it was awesome.
I was in the lead and it waslike, wow, I have a chance to
maybe win this thing.
But uh yeah, Francesca like justblew that that aid station and
got a little bit of lead on me.
And I was like, Oh, I'll I'llI'll just keep running my raise
and he'll come back on the nextclimb.
But he he never came back, cameback, and it it started to get
like five and a half hours, andit went from feeling like hard

(33:24):
but really good to also beinglike, Oh, I'm tired, my legs
hurt, my my feet hurt, I stillhave so far to go.
Did I make a huge mistake goingout this hard?
But it you just had to like keepkeep pushing and like as you
said, it was incredible becausethey had I think it was an
advantage being in the leadbecause it meant you got a lot
of like the camera runners andthe bikers following you.

(33:46):
So like I'd be going through arough patch and being like, uh
oh, like Francesco's now likefive, six minutes up on me all
of a sudden, and I'm sure guysare behind me closing hard, and
but then you know the camerarunner would be behind you, and
he's like, you know, giving youlike oh, you still got six
minutes on third place and youlook good and reminding you to
like keep taking your gels, allthose little things.

(34:06):
So, like definitely like you'dhave rough patches and just
having you know fans and camerarunners and all that stuff, like
fake it till you make it.
If if if you got the camera onyou, then probably there are
people watching, so you you tryto look a little bit a little
bit better, you know, run alittle bit faster, and then next
thing you know, you're actuallyfeeling better.
But yeah, that the the whole thewhole experience was just you

(34:27):
know incredible.
And I was digging really deep,kind of like getting dizzy and
everything was hurting.
I was on the verge of crampingup, and yeah, I I didn't know if
I was gonna be able to hold onto the podium until like
literally when I got intoShamini.

SPEAKER_00 (34:43):
That's so crazy.
How did it feel running for 10hours, dude?
Like that's a really long time,it's not a short period of time.
Like, did it go by fast for you?
Did you pop in music, or wereyou just like in your own head
the whole time?

SPEAKER_01 (34:54):
Yeah, I was just in my own head the whole time, and
like it sounds longer inretrospect than it felt out
there because you're just you'reso engaged the whole time about
you know, with the variety ofthe course, you're thinking
about like, is this the rightpace for the climb?
Or, you know, trying to rememberyour your fueling strategy, and
you know, am I am I drinkingenough?

(35:15):
Am I having enough gels?
All those kind of things, andthen like you know, navigating
the downhills carefully.
I felt like you just kind ofchunked it up into sections and
yeah, it definitely it didn'tlike thinking back, it was
really long, but at the time Iwas never like, oh my gosh, I've
been running so long.
It's more just like the fearwhen you're getting tired, like
six, seven hours in, you'relike, wait, I still have a like

(35:37):
over a marathon to go.
Oh, thinking about that sense.
Like you I tried to not, yeah,not think about that.
Just like just knowing thecourse is really helpful because
I could just like chunk it up.
Okay, I know what this nextclimb is like, and then you
reset and you're like, okay,this next downhill is this
techie bit, or there's a littleflatter section where I'm gonna
try to like you know open up thestride a little bit.

(35:58):
Um yeah, so it definitely,definitely was a long time, but
yeah, by by like those littlemental tricks just to keep
yourself engaged and keepyourself pushing, I think are
the are the way to get throughit.
But it never it never felt like,oh my gosh, like I've been
running for so long.

SPEAKER_00 (36:14):
Well, I wonder too, like, and you can maybe you can
provide some more commentary tothis, like when Francesco kind
of broke the race open and got alittle ahead of you, uh
especially it's probably I don'tknow.
Obviously, you're worried aboutgetting caught, but at the same
time, you're still in pursuit,trying to catch him, I would
imagine.
Like, still in that grind of allright, if he's five or six
minutes, how do I close this?
Was it more how do I close, orwas it more how do I hold on

(36:36):
when you were kind of in thosepositions?

SPEAKER_01 (36:38):
I think for like, yeah, the maybe, maybe like
until uh was it triant, I think.
Yeah, yeah.
There, then there's the bigclimb there.
I think like I've been the likeI've been trying to keep myself
in like mentally in there.
I knew like I was using thepoles and Francesco was just
running, and I was like, well,eventually I think it's gonna

(36:59):
catch up to him.
Like he's such a good runner,but like, especially a few of
those late climbs like out ofTreant are just so steep that I
was, you know, banking that if Ijust keep running smart,
sticking to my healing plan, andjust like you know, keep keep
believing in myself, there's achance that he comes back.
And then I think like leavingtrianth, I'd been like I'd done

(37:19):
that super steep climb intraining, and I was like, oh, if
I if I could just like you know,feel like I did and on that
training day, like I could putdown like a really good time,
close a big gap.
But instead, like you were justso much more tired than than you
think.
So, like the entire last 30 plusk like I was going much slower
than even my like easy trainingrun on the course, and you're

(37:40):
just like, oh, I'm like I'mworking hard, I'm so tired, but
I just like you know, there'sthere's nothing left, you can't
even get your heart rate up.
So it it went from like I gotsplits, then I was like 10 plus
minutes back, and I definitelyjust switched to like, okay, no,
don't need any heroics, but justlike keep it together, don't
totally implode.
So I yeah, I think aroundtrianth I switched to survival

(38:03):
mode, try to hold on to tosecond or at least the podium.
And kind of because we droppedDrew just before like the
Chompex lock on that climb.
So I knew he was still like inthe hunt, but I wasn't it wasn't
like him specifically.
I wasn't getting good splits.
I think there was like theFrench guy who ended up fourth.
I think people were saying hewas closing really hard.

(38:24):
So he was kind of the the guythat I was had heard the most
most about.
And then yeah, I I looked back,it started raining, it was like
kind of cold getting up to LaFlagère, and it was actually
like a little like that wasmaybe one of the hard parts
because I think everyone'shanging out in Shamani for the
finish.
So there were just like almostno fans.

(38:45):
Remember, like one group ofpeople that were like blaring
music, like something like bornin the USA, and that that got me
going.
But but the rest of that climbwas pretty lonely, and I'd been
having all these random splits,like someone would say, You
still got 10 minutes, and thenit would hear, like, it's only
seven, they're closing reallyhard.
So you're just trying to likekeep it together.
But I got up to La Flagere,looked back, and it's kind of

(39:08):
open because it's at the top ofthe ski area, and I couldn't see
anyone.
So then I was like, Well, I musthave it like at least four four
minutes to third place, and sofrom there I just switched to
okay, like I gotta get down thethe top half of that like
descent from La Flagere isreally roody and technical.
It was getting dark with therain, like just kind of
slippery, and yeah, like mycoordination had totally gone.

(39:31):
So it was like, okay, I like I Ican't go slow down this, but I
also can't like completely tripand like eat it hard because
then I'll be limping all the wayin, or I might not might not
even finish.
So that that first two miles ofthe descent were were so tough,
like every step.
I think I was like, I keptkicking the roots and things,
and yeah, my my feet werehurting, and then then it

(39:53):
finally opened up and there werethere were a few fans out there
telling me like Drew's closingreally hard, like you can't you
you can't cruise it in.
So I'd like I booked it backdown.
I think my watch was telling meI was doing like under five
minute miles again on that likelast mile descent.
Just like I've you know, you'vebeen battling for 10 hours, and
you're like, you don't want tolike, you know, if if you can

(40:14):
get if it comes down to fiveseconds, you don't want to wanna
have any regrets.
But uh yeah, got the lastkilometer and shamini was just
like totally lined.
Like the most incredibleexperience, like having that
many fans out was prettysurreal.
But yeah, like I I had to keeprunning hard like until the last
300 meters because I I didn'tknow how how much of a gap I

(40:36):
had.

SPEAKER_00 (40:37):
That's crazy.
It's so crazy to think, too, ina 62 mile or whatever race, like
it's wire to wire in a lot ofways.
Like you're you're racing startto finish, which is kind of
crazy to think, too.

SPEAKER_01 (40:48):
Yeah, and I like I I definitely like I I needed just
about everything I had.
I think like I I felt like Iclosed and finished out pretty
strong, but Drew was justflying, and I think he'd come
from like 10 minutes back toabout two at the finish.
So another another mile or two,and I probably would have been
passed.
And then like the women's racewas even crazier with how close
it was.

(41:08):
That was like I didn't reallyget to see any of that play out,
but just yeah, looking at therecaps, like to have four women
kind of like within seconds andminutes of each other the entire
way going back and forth.
It's just yeah, it's really coolhow how close some of these
races have been that you don'tyou don't necessarily know until
the very end what's gonnahappen.

SPEAKER_00 (41:26):
Yeah, the level is just so crazy.
And the women's race, yeah,dude.
Like the all that descent off alot for Jerry you were
describing.
Um, dude, passes back and forth.
And it was, I mean, it's crazytoo, because like, yeah, you're
finishing in Chamani and there'sthousands of people out there
screaming you on, but the thinkabout like all of the people
too, like watching the livestream cheering you on, like
there had to have been multiplethousands, which is kind of

(41:47):
crazy too.
So yeah, it's it's I don't know,it's become such a an event.

SPEAKER_01 (41:51):
Yeah, it was kind of like I I think I looked at the
live stream like they had thereplay up and it says like
250,000 people tune in.
I was like, whoa, I don't thinkI've ever seen a trail race that
had 250,000 people tune in.
So that was that was prettycool.
So I was like kind ofregretting, like, oh maybe,
maybe I would have done betterto uh like hang back more at the

(42:13):
start and try to like run asmart race and be closing super
hard.
But in retrospect, like I thinkit it played out really well
because that was like right upfront and it made it made the
race exciting.
I got a lot of coverage by uh bybeing in that lead pack.
And I think it's like it's justlike it's a pretty fine line
between uh like running a smartrace versus like just going for

(42:33):
broke and trying to hold on.
I think like putting yourself upthere and being in the front
pack, like it may not be thesmartest strategy from like a
physiological standpoint or onthe mental side to like be be
near the front and mixing it upis kind of huge for being able
to dig deep and get the most outof yourself.
It's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 (42:53):
Like I said, it was so much fun to follow.
What were the uh what were theemotions like crossing the
finish line?
Like, I mean, obviouslythroughout the race, you're
going through every emotionimaginable, probably.
So when you finish, like whatwent through your head?
Like I need a big nap, or I'mhungry, like like what were you
thinking?

SPEAKER_01 (43:12):
Yeah, mostly just relief, honestly.
Like it just felt so so gratefuland accomplished because like I
definitely had had set this outand like put myself out there
for the the whole like the wholerunning season that I this was
my A goal.
And yeah, like the the plan, thesummer, like I talked about,
like it hadn't hadn't reallygone like exactly how I wanted

(43:32):
to, but I I knew I got to thestarting line fit.
And but anything can happen.
Like, you know, all takes onebad step, you you twist your
ankle or take a fall, or likeyour stomach's a little off and
nutrition isn't going down, andyou know, all those months of
work and like honestly, likeyears of work, right?
Like can't don't necessarilylike pan out.
So I was just yeah, super, superrelieved to have like worked so

(43:54):
hard and actually like so sograteful to get the result.
But uh yeah, it's pretty prettycool.
Just like yeah, the the scenewith the fans and I I was
exhausted, so I got started justkind of started drinking water
and coke right away because Ihad to go like a meet go to the
drug testing, and then I thinkit took like two hours by the

(44:16):
time like the the us like topthree guys had gone through drug
testing.
So it was like 11 o'clock when Igot home and I just was so
tired.
Like the I think it was like thelongest day.
Like I've never had a had a racethat like you start like first
thing in the morning and thenlike it's dark out and like
nighttime, but you're done, soyou're just like you're pretty

(44:37):
empty.
So I I just went home and yeah,definitely like the the caffeine
and the adrenaline, it was likehard to sleep, but I was just so
exhausted.
So I didn't I didn't do anythingafter the race besides wait at
wait two hours to pee in a cupand then go home.

SPEAKER_00 (44:50):
So no hanging out in the French clubs going wild.
All right.
No, unfortunately.
Is it a little weird after thefact?
Like we like we talked about inthe live stream, like now 250
plus thousand people know whoDavid Sinclair is.
What is that like when you'rewalking around the streets of
Sham?
Are like people saying, like,trying to take photos with you?
Are they trying to likeintroduce themselves to you like

(45:11):
after the race?
Is is that a little strange?

SPEAKER_01 (45:14):
Oh, it's yeah, I think it's not that big of a
deal.
Like maybe, maybe a few nichepeople like recognize me because
they're like big fans of UltraRunning, but it's not it's not
been that different.
It was fun to like go to theaward ceremony the next day, and
I got to give a few likeautographs and take pictures
with some of like the youngkids.
So it's that's really fun.
And like to think that oh, oh,they they think I'm cool and are

(45:36):
like inspired by by what I'mdoing.
But in terms of like day to day,I can, you know, I'm no no one
really knows who I am unlessthey're like a fan of Ultra
Running.

SPEAKER_00 (45:47):
That's cool, it's definitely cool.
Well, let's let's pivot back tothe race really quick.
One of the things I didn't askyou was about nutrition.
Like, what was the nutritionplan for you?
And like what were you kind oflike eating the whole time?

SPEAKER_01 (45:58):
I just tried to do uh like mostly gels.
So I did like some some scratchand the and the flask at first
for like electrolytes, and thenuh the plan was to do like one
of the science and sport likegels every 30 minutes for as
long as I could.
And uh yeah, it worked prettywell.
I kind of stayed on that for thefirst like five, six hours, and

(46:21):
then you just get like flavorfatigue of things.
So like as I got more and moretired, like I would look at the
wash and be like, okay, it'stime for gel.
But I, you know, like I'd I'dsoak down half a gel and be
like, ooh, like I don't know ifI really want this.
But then like 10 minutes later,you'd be like, wait, I maybe I
do feel a little bit better.
So even though like at the time,like you're just forcing

(46:43):
yourself to keep getting likethese gel and liquid carbs down.
And like it makes you thinkyou're gonna puke for a second,
but like as soon as you stopfueling, like the energy just
goes down and it never comesback up.
So like the whole the wholesummer I was just been working
on, like, yeah, trying to get upto or like you know, 80, 100
grams of carbs an hour in mylong runs, and I was able to

(47:05):
stick to that for like the firstyou know, seven hours of the
race, and then I think I kind ofkind of let the fueling go a bit
all bit, just because likeyou're tired, you're not
thinking clearly, and like itjust isn't fun anymore to keep
pounding those gels.
But yes, I added a little bit ofcaffeine, I'd do like Coca-Cola
at the eight stations, and thenthe the main like thing that had

(47:26):
me a little worried was I did aI should do my first sweat test,
like I was just about to ask youthat the day before the race.
And I've never had issues withcramping and like I don't feel
like my I don't get like tons ofsweat stains or anything, so I
was not I wasn't too worriedabout being like one of these
extremely salty sweaters, butthe the sweat test result came

(47:46):
back that I was like, you know,like on the on the sweaty, like
saltier side of normal.
And I was like, oh, maybe myplan doesn't have enough
electrolytes in it.
So I I was I tried to like up mylike electrolyte intake a little
bit, like tweaking last minutethe nutrition plan.
And then of course, like duringthe race, I just like I I was

(48:07):
doing like the electrolytes inmy in my liquid, um, but water
was just tasting way, waybetter.
So I like I kind of left all mysports drink flask and just
switched to drinking water uhfor the last few hours of the
race, and it, you know, was wasa lot easier to get like water
down than yeah, sweet tastingliquid.

SPEAKER_00 (48:26):
Interesting.
So you I mean you said somethingalong the lines of like having
some cramp issues as well.
Do you think that was likerelated to any hydration stuff,
like more like staying off theelectrolytes?
Or the reason I ask is like thisis like a super something I'm
super fascinated with.
I just did my first sweat testas well and found out I'm like,
I'm an extremely salty sweater.
And so it's it's uh it's aninteresting aspect of it, which

(48:46):
is cool.

SPEAKER_01 (48:47):
Yeah, no, I th I think it's interesting and it's
cool to see like that people arereally like paying more
attention to it.
And I yeah, I think you justgotta figure out what what works
for you.
Like if you don't wanna youdon't want to lose like sleep
over like not believing in yournutrition plan.
So like do you gotta do what youwhat you have available, but
definitely like looking forwardto Western states, it's one of

(49:09):
the things I think there's stillroom for improvement, especially
like in an even longer andhotter race where like the the
line between like you knowupsetting your stomach with too
much fuel or too much like youknow electrolytes in the drinks
and also like cramps or likecompletely cratering the race
because you're not fueling andhydrating properly can totally

(49:31):
like can turn into hours or likeyou know, can cause a potential
podium to be to be a DNF.
It's something I I'm gonna startworking on.
So I like have have plans to atleast like start a sweat log and
do a few more sweat tests andyeah, start start monitoring my
my sweat sweat rate so that Iknow I'm staying hydrated.
I think I I think I would liketo try doing like electrolyte

(49:55):
tabs maybe in the future.
Just because like if if you getsick of like whatever drink you
have has electrolytes in it andyou just want water, then you
can at least like choke down theelectrolyte tabs and you don't
have to worry about like theflavor or the sweetness that
comes with a sport drink.
So I think the more you can themore you can maybe like
compartmentalize.
Like you've got I like gelsbecause like you just know

(50:17):
exactly how many carbs are in apacket and you can just be like,
okay, like the wash beeped, it'sbeen 30 minutes.
I'm just gonna chug this gel.
And then you can have just likeyour water separate, and you're
just trying to like, you know,drink to thirst or like stay on
a whatever, like try toreplenish what you're sweating
out.
And then same thing, like justdo electrolyte tabs or
something, or caffeine tabs ifif you're trying to add

(50:37):
caffeine.
So like you can have everythingbe independent, might be I
haven't done this in the past,but I think that's like after
doing like this race and beinglike, oh, I got sick of the this
the taste of the sports drink,but I still knew I needed
electrolytes, so it would begive you more flexibility to
just like yeah, have everythingseparated out.

SPEAKER_00 (50:55):
Yeah, I I almost feel like, dude, I mean it's
hard to say because likeobviously CCC is a completely
different race.
But if it's a hot day, you know,it's only what four more hours
longer than CCC is somethinglike a Western States if you're
running in that, you know, whereyou would expect maybe four
great.

SPEAKER_01 (51:11):
Hopefully, yeah, that would that would be nice.

SPEAKER_00 (51:14):
But which is crazy too to think about.
It's like, holy shit, that'slike a whole other 38 more miles
or whatever.
But anyway, it's um yeah, it'sinteresting.
But you know, I don't know.
I I think it's almost easierbecause there's so many more
crew point accesses as well tobe able to, you know, you don't
have to really wear a pack, likeyou could just wire handhelds,
you know, you can wear a belt.

(51:34):
It's um I feel like WesternStates is almost an easier thing
to be a gamer for, whereas likeCCC I feel like is a bit can be
a bit more complicated.

SPEAKER_01 (51:41):
Yeah, I know that's a good that's a good point.
I see like both sides of likethe flexibility at Western
States that like there's nomandatory like equipment and you
have some money options, itgives you it gives you more
flexibility.
And I think like it wasdefinitely in some ways nice
with CC because you're like,well, like you just you need to
pack because you've got all thismandatory gear and you have to
go, you know, like five and ahalf hours to get to the first

(52:03):
crew point.
So like definitely it felt likea lot at the start because I was
like, okay, I knew I wanted todo gels, but it's like then I'm
like you know, counting out andmaking the plan like, okay, I
need to carry 12 gels.
And it's like, where am I gonnaput them all?
But uh yeah, so there are thereare pros and cons uh of either
system, but definitely like theyeah, the the heat is what I'm

(52:26):
definitely most, you know,worried about and why I think
like I need to be even morefocused on like the nutrition
and the hydration because it'sjust like I think that the heat
of western states, if you allowyour like electrical imbalance
or yourself to get toodehydrated, you're just you know
the extra four hours plus theheat means it's a an even bigger
factor than it is at CCC.

(52:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (52:47):
It's interesting.
I feel like I mean, for a racelike that, you definitely have
to be a gamer in the sense oflike you've got to be dialed in
with your stuff.
Did you watch any of the likethe David or David Roche stuff?
Uh he like put up a bunch oflike he was pretty good with
sharing a lot of his uh like theheat training and stuff like he
he was doing in Boulder.
And some of it was actually likereally groundbreaking stuff.
It was like this is this isdifferent and interesting.

(53:07):
So there's definitely stuff outthere that I think like others
have done to like help and sharesome of it, but I don't know.
You also gotta find what worksfor you.

SPEAKER_01 (53:16):
I I think there's probably two sides to it, and I
think like a lot of people gomaybe even over the board now
with the heat training, and it'slike if you like the science
says if you get like three, youknow, you get a lot of
adaptations just doing likethree 30 minutes on a sessions,
you know, a week.
So I think I will I'll I'll dosome targeted heat training, but
the more I just haven't done alot of hot races, so the rather

(53:40):
than like spending tons of hoursin a heat suit or like you know
going to the desert and youknow, you know, training in 100
degree weather all the time, Ithink just like keep keep the
heat training in there.
So I already do some saunatraining, so I'll definitely
keep doing that.
But then just like actuallypracticing the like the heat
mitigation strategies are likewhere you want to be spending
your energy.

(54:01):
So like figuring out like, is itbetter to like you know have
some slushy type stuff at aidstation, like actually ingest
the ice, or do you, you know, doyou want to wear the vest and
the the ice bandana and justload that down, or do you just
want to like be jumping in likeice water, like little kiddie
pools?
And you know, like I think themain thing is like once you get
once you start to feeloverheated, you're gonna like

(54:24):
have a have a rough patch atWestern States.
So everyone that I've talked tothat says like they they thought
it went well and like the heatwasn't a big issue.
They say that they were likejust taking on ice at every aid
station, not even like just theones that have crew access, they
were taking the extra 30 secondsto like take some more ice on
board.
And they said they look theyjust they had so much ice and

(54:46):
cold water on them all day thatthey never actually felt hot out
there.

SPEAKER_00 (54:49):
So that's the way to do it.

SPEAKER_01 (54:50):
That's yeah, I I I tend to get really hot and like
I I used to just think thatlike, oh, like I'm not good in
heat, and then like by embracinga little bit of like doing the
sauna training and you know,just like trying to change my
mindset around it, I found thatI like I can do pretty well even
in like somewhat hot races.
It's just I've never tried torace you know as long in extreme

(55:12):
heat.
Like I think it's like it'sdifferent for like a Jim Wolms
who grew up in like Phoenix andread, like, oh like the heat's
no big deal, but I grew up inVermont to where like, oh, it's
76 degrees out, like it's it's ahot one.
It's pretty tough.

SPEAKER_00 (55:25):
Dude, you gotta you gotta wear uh well actually I
gotta ask you, what was it likeracing in that Nike ACG shirt?
I was gonna say you gotta justlike take the USA part off of it
and just put craft on it andjust rock one of those things.

SPEAKER_01 (55:37):
Yeah, they they were kind of fun, just more of like
for the just for like the theythey gave us those the day
before the race, and we weretalking as a team, we're like,
oh, we're we're kind of excitedto try these out.
So we decided we were all gonnawear them.
And I think it maybe doesactually work a little bit.
Like we put them on in the hotelroom, and like there's a little
breeze, we're like, Oh, I feelkind of cold.
And then so we were actuallyworried, like we thought they

(55:59):
were stylish, but uh it was likeit was like 37 degrees at the
start.
So we were actually like, Are wegonna be too cold in these
things?
And I had like my arm warmers onunderneath it, and like a hat on
at the start of the race, andthen like it was only 40 degrees
out, but 10 minutes in the race,I was like super hot already.
So I took off the hat and andthe arm warmers, and yeah, I

(56:20):
didn't I didn't I didn't noticeit working as much like during
the race as like in the hotelroom, but like it I didn't
overheat out there, but itwasn't a particularly hot day,
so they're they're they theylook absolutely ridiculous.
I think I got we we all got alot of cheers for uh for wearing
them.

SPEAKER_00 (56:36):
Oh, it's a fashion statement.
That I I don't know what tothink of it.
I'm not sure yet, but they'redefinitely it's definitely
unique and different, that's forsure.

SPEAKER_01 (56:44):
Yeah, I was like uh we were like joking about should
I should I put it up on eBay andsee if someone will uh pay a
thousand dollars for one ofthese things because I can't
ever wear it again.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (56:54):
That's true.
That's true.
I mean if you're gonna ifthere's a shirt to frame for
like a U at Team USA, that'sprobably it, but it's I think
I'd probably want to keep it.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's dope.
Like I said, nobody can I don'tthink anybody can get them yet,
and other than like Team USA andthen the ACG athletes.

SPEAKER_01 (57:08):
So there's definitely I'm sure they'll
release them probably by by nextyear.
But yeah, they're they'rethey're pretty funny.
And it's like I guess likeyou've seen people do the whole
like holes in shirts for awhile, but I think uh I think
we'll probably see more morecompanies coming out with like
you know, at least like coolingtype shirts, even if they don't
do it like exactly the same way.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (57:28):
On the topic of that, craft, how has it been
like working with them now?
Like, do you have to I don'tknow, as much as you can answer
this, like from shoe testing andstuff like that.
Are you getting involved withthat, or is it you know, more
hands off with that?
Like, how how has it been so farworking with them?

SPEAKER_01 (57:44):
Um, yeah, I probably can't talk too much about
details, but it's been like it'sbeen awesome.
So I I raced in like a theirprototype like carbon plated
gravel trail racer, and uh theshoe is like absolutely
incredible, and it's just thefirst version.
So uh it was really fun likesitting down with the the shoe
developers after CCC and liketelling them what I liked about

(58:05):
it, hearing their ideas, whatthey're gonna try in the next
version.
And uh like yeah, it's it'spretty fun being with Kraft.
They're like, you know, they'relike one of the smaller shoe
companies, I'd say.
So as one of the athletes, it'sreally fun that you can like
actually be like heavilyinvolved and give them feedback,
and I can tell them I would Iwould like to see this, this,
and this.
And they're like, okay, we'vegot we've got all these ideas.

(58:25):
Well, we're gonna send you somemore shoes, and you can tell us
what you like and what you don'tlike.
So yeah, it's been been reallygreat working with them.
So cool, man.

SPEAKER_00 (58:33):
It's a great company.
I mean, I gotta say, like, oneof the things I really
appreciated and liked was likeespecially David Laney's
involvement, not just as anathlete, and how after, you
know, as he I don't know, agesin the sport and he may maybe
some point in time when he stepsaway from being an athlete,
there's a job waiting for him tokind of be involved with the
company, which is something Ireally like.
I see them do the you know,Sportiva did that with Anton as

(58:55):
well.
I kind of like that there's apath after you're done being an
athlete to kind of move on anddo other things internally,
which I think is kind of neat.

SPEAKER_01 (59:03):
Yeah, it's been cool.
So, yeah, with with with DavidLane, they've been keeping him
on there, and like with with TimTolfson, kind of maybe going
going more towards the racedirector role, and they're
they're keeping him on.
So yeah, they're they're a greatcompany.
Part of like part of why Isigned was when I was a skier
going up, like the one articleof photo thing you just had to
have in Vermont was the Kraftwind briefs, so you don't freeze

(59:24):
when you're wearing like aspandex race ski suit.
And so like they're they theymake good gear.
I still have like from when Iwas like 13, 14 starting out ski
racing, like my my craft windbrief underwear, and they're
still totally functional.
So, like you know, they do agood job designing their clothes
and yeah, make make good durablegear.
Super cool.

SPEAKER_00 (59:45):
Yeah, they make good stuff, man.
Um and I'm excited for what thefuture is, especially with like
some of the shoe tech.
And dude, what the brands arecoming out with these days, man.
There's all kinds of like theshoes have evolved like crazy.
It's nuts.

SPEAKER_01 (59:57):
Yeah, I think uh I don't know.
I was I was skeptical.
at first and I'd like untilabout a year ago like signing
with craft I'd never like run ina like any kind of like whatever
super shoe carbon platedanything and I was I was pretty
skeptical like that they likethey would really work that well
on the on the trails andespecially for like the more
runnable like CCC type courseswestern states where it's not

(01:00:19):
super technical so you're notlike the main thing that makes
me nervous is like if you havetoo much foam and too much dack
height it's just like I'll I'lltwist my ankle but like the yeah
so some of these shoes are justthey run so well and they just
like they they definitely payoff in in the long run like
cushioning your legs and justkeep you moving when when your
legs get tired.

(01:00:40):
So it's it's it's a fun timeright now like where the shoes
are better than they've everbeen and only getting better.
So cool.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:46):
Dude one last thing I want to get to um off of craft
um I want to move on to onething that you did this boot
spur VK that I I heard talkingabout on Run the Whites.
I know you get out and do a lotof like local stuff in Mount
Washington but just maybe talkabout that route because I don't
know I I'm just very inspired bya lot of these like northeast VK
routes and stuff like that as oflate.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:06):
Yeah no it's just like one of those things where I
like I I really like ski thewhite because they hooked me up
with like skis and stuff.
And they like I think it's maybethe second year they do like
every month throughout thesummer and into the fall they'll
they'll do a different likeStrava segment challenge.
So uh yeah I've been wanting toget over to to run uh Mount
Washington again.
So they had this VK segment upuh Bootsburg which is like most

(01:01:27):
of the way up to the top ofMount Washington.
Um and it's just like supersteep.
It's like it ended up being twoand a half miles and almost
exactly a vertical kilometer.
But it's just like roody androcky and like totally gnarly.
So I got to go over there acouple weeks ago and do it as
like one of my final uh tune upworkouts before heading to
worlds and uh yeah it's it'sit's a legit like super steep

(01:01:51):
super hard VK and I think like afew hundred people went out and
did their challenge.
So like you know it's it's likea course where you probably
couldn't host a real race on butfor like a time trial VK thing
it's just yeah it's so fun toget the get the community out
there.
So it was yeah fun to fun to bea part of that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:07):
Yeah dude I love the stuff they're doing the run the
whites 100 or no what is it thewhite some white white mountain
yeah they did the white mountain100 which is like the yeah like
would be the hard ass hundredmile or like possible because
you can't hold you can't hold arace on it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:21):
So people have been going for FKTs for a few years
and they did a yeah like a wholesupported thing to so a bunch of
you could go for go for it atthe same time and yeah they they
put on cool events.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:31):
So cool one last question really too I wanted to
ask you uh about CCC.
I know you were trying to likethere's some stuff where you had
to been hands off and not gettoo crazy in your in your
mileage buildup and obviously Ilooked you lurked your Strava
but like what like were youdoing a ton of like threshold
work like just a ton of volume?
Like what were what what didyour weeks look like in the
buildup?

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:51):
Yeah I kept like just week to week I kind of kept
it pretty consistent.
I came right like I came off abig winter racing skiing and I
already felt like pretty fit.
I had to take a little breakwhen I was like when the
tendonitis kind of flared up andthen pretty quickly I realized
that I could run like uphill alittle bit without flaring it up
so I was doing a lot on thetreadmill and that's why I did

(01:03:13):
like the uh the Mount Washingtonroad race and went out to Broken
Arrow and I was like okay I'mgonna do the uh the ascent and
then maybe I'll start the uhlike start the 46k and if it
like my knee hurts on thedownhill I'll just drop out.
So I was doing like the firsthalf of summer I was just riding
my road bike and doing uphillrunning mostly and then by like

(01:03:34):
July it was going well enoughthat I started doing a little
bit more like up down addingmore vert and uh but I think I
kept it pretty steady at aroundlike 20 20 hours of aerobic work
like kind of throughout thewhole summer.
And I come from like the crosscountry skiing background.
So yeah generally like youstructure like kind of like two
hard workouts a week and theneverything else is mostly like

(01:03:56):
easier aerobic volume.
And then I got in the gym.
So I started like a lot ofthreshold like yeah you know
five six minutes uphill on thetreadmill or you know like 10
minutes like on a trail goinguphill.
And then the last month I triedas the knee got better, I just
slowly started doing morerunning and a little bit less on

(01:04:17):
the bike but I didn't go like toall running until maybe like the
last two weeks when I got overto Chamonix was like the first
time the whole summer I feltlike I could actually run like
day in and day out and not haveit flare up the knee.
And so I think like my biggestweek was probably like right
around 100 miles running but youknow with 20 something thousand

(01:04:38):
feet of vertical like checkingout the course.
And that kind of seems to belike the sweet spot for me if I
do if I try to do much more thanthat, I think I'm just like I
start to get really tired andlike the recovery goes out the
window.
So like I I coach myself and youknow like you know you never
know how it's gonna go but I tryto just like be really
responsive.
Like the the basic principlesare the same and you know you're

(01:05:01):
just trying to like keep thekeep the aeropic base really
high and then uh like forsomething like CCC you got to
make sure the legs are durableenough to like keep keep going
up and down and like still stillmoving because like as as we saw
in the race it was like my firsttime I think getting like good
data from 100k where I wasrunning pretty close to like

(01:05:24):
threshold like my heart ratewent over 180 beats a minute a
couple times on that first likehour plus climb and even on like
the the second climb to the highpoint and the climb to Sean
Beck's lock like my heart ratewas the whole time climbing and
like in the 170 beats.
And then like as I got tired ifyou look at the data like my
heart rate's just going slowlydown and down as you as you

(01:05:45):
fatigue you can't keep up theeffort anymore.
So like you gotta to definitelyhave the up to 100k like you
gotta be you got to be reallyfit.
So I think you need like youneed a high uphill running
threshold um to be able to staywith a lead pack on those
climbs.
And then the trick is like okayto like you know be able to be
able to do that and then notlike fade super super hard.

(01:06:07):
So yeah definitely like I Irespond well to threshold
training and like you can youcan do a lot more threshold
training than you can uh youknow like even harder intervals
so I try to I try to get a goodvolume of threshold for like my
two hard workouts a week.
But uh as I got close like I wasdoing this once a week workout
at Mount Ellen ski area and so Iwas kind of trying to go like

(01:06:29):
okay like maybe like optimistic100k pace like or like 100k pace
for the early climbs when Iwould go up and it's like a
three mile climb with like 2500feet of and then I'd run back
down and be like okay if thatwas hard can I do it again and
then like okay come back thenext week.
I did it twice last week can Ido it three times can I do it
four times and so like myhardest workout was I think like

(01:06:52):
a five hour run with 10,000 forover 25 miles.
Damn just lapping the ski area.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:58):
If you don't mind me asking what is your threshold
heart rate?
I'm just so curious.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:04):
Oh that's a like it's a good question but it
really like it varies day today.
So like when I'm super freshlike on on the start line it's
probably like you know it's it'sup around like 180 beats a
minute like I just ran.
I did I did a half marathonyesterday on the road so like
that's a pretty good test and Ithink I averaged like yeah low

(01:07:25):
180s but sometimes sometimeswhen you're like you know
caffeine adrenaline you'refeeling really good I can
definitely like for up to anhour can probably on a good day
like a whole like you know midto even upper 180s.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:39):
Oh shit dude that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:41):
Yeah so I think like the like if you look at like the
I don't I don't always wear theHarry Muner I've been wearing it
a lot more lately.
When I when I was younger I usedto be able like yeah like you
know my I did like a thresholdlactate test and they're like
okay your your threshold's 195beats a minute and now it's like
it's definitely more in like theyou know the 180s now and like

(01:08:03):
if I'm a little fatigued evenlike 180 can feel really hard.
So it changes from day to daybut interesting do you do have
you like do you test anymore atall like lactate lactate yeah
lactate testing or no I don'tknow if I have a lactate tester
I don't use it a whole lot likethe it's cost like three dollars
a strip but uh yeah I would Iwould like to maybe sometime

(01:08:25):
before the end of the year liketo do like a whole lactate
profile again but I don't knowwe'll get around to it.
Yeah it's so cool I I bring itout every once in a while just
like yeah to when I'm gettingheart rate data and especially
like running on the track orsomething to like just check.
Is it one of those things foryou like do you like you don't
really need a coach do you likedo you do you think you'll ever
get one or is it if it's if youif it's not broke don't fix it

(01:08:48):
kind of thing like how do youview that I think I just I like
the challenge of like beingbeing being my own coach and
writing I think the like lookingtowards western states I am a
little bit interested in notnecessarily like a coach to
write like training but someoneto like consult on and help a
little bit with like likedialing the nutrition and

(01:09:10):
dialing the heat mitigation andlike a few of those things.
So they wouldn't necessarilylike be writing my like workouts
day to day but they'd be likeyou should go like you should do
this long run, but you should doXYZ to like really dial in your
nutrition or your your heatmitigation like those kind of
extra things but yeah I don'tthink to me it wouldn't be fun

(01:09:30):
anymore for me if I like had wasyou know had a call with a coach
once a week or was getting anemail being like here here are
your workouts.
I I I really like having thelike the flexibility to be like
okay well like I I'm justfeeling terrible today so I'm
gonna actually like you knowrewrite the plan and so I'm
always kind of thinking likethese are like this is my week

(01:09:50):
of training like these are likewhat the two kind of key
workouts I want to get done andthen this is like what I would
like to see for like totalvolume.
But then like you'd be like okaylike well I'm feeling motivated
I want to go do like my myinterval is flat or running
today or like I just need a dayin the mountains I'm gonna go
you know go do a boot boot spurVK or whatever it is like you're

(01:10:11):
getting the same like you'retrying to get the the right
physiological stimulus but mixit up and keep it fun.
And I think with a with a coachtelling me exactly what to do it
wouldn't be as much fun.
So maybe like in terms of likethe physiology or like ideal
training I could be you know oneor two percent better by like

(01:10:32):
really being scientific aboutlike what the workouts are and
everything but I think I wouldlose more because it would just
suck the fun out of it for me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:40):
Yeah it's so interesting.
I don't know I I like takingfolks perspectives on it.
I just find it yeah it'sinteresting stuff.
All right one last question Ihave for you now that you are a
professional how do you view itdo you view this thing as like a
career do you view it as likeI'm just gonna do this for a few
years like how how long do youwant to do this for?
And like how do you view it?

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:59):
Oh it's uh I I I don't think I would view it as a
career right now.
Like I'd I I'm fortunate enoughto be like I you know not making
that much money like if it keepsgoing well I could maybe like
you know start earning enough tolike which is cool because when
I started trail running it wasdefinitely just a hobby and you
know like maybe like Killian ora couple people were like you

(01:11:23):
know actually making money at itbut now it's like actually also
impossible to you know at leastlike make a living if you're
having good results as a trailrunner.
So that's really awesome but I'mdefinitely not like you know you
it's it's not necessarily like acareer thing as you never know
when you're gonna have a have abad injury or like the I could

(01:11:44):
decide in a year okay like I'vedone everything I want to do or
it's just it's not fun.
I don't have the motivationanymore.
So I'd like yeah I'm I'm justreally like glad to have the uh
like the good fortune and to beyeah lucky enough to that I
don't need to like have a job onthe side so I can be all in on
running for a little bit andhopefully I'm still motivated

(01:12:06):
and running professionally infive or you know you see you see
some of these guys are soinspiring they're like having
world class results in theirlike mid and late 40s but yeah I
I don't know some days I wake upand I already feel a little old
so who knows if I'll if I'llstill be getting good results in
five six years.
But uh yeah it's it's really funto right now to kind of treat it

(01:12:28):
as a as a career and it's beenbeen going well.
So hopefully I can keep onhaving good results and yeah
make make a little bit more of acareer out of it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:37):
It's so interesting to me because like dude you've
done so much in the sport likeyou're easily a first ball at
Hall of Famer if we had a hallof fame like you would be in it
easily all right one morequestion I do have to say I I do
have to ask you this becauseit's very interesting to me and
then we'll end it on this butlike is it cool like how what
does it mean to you to have suchrespect from your peers like not
like Eli like I've heardMicelino give you so much

(01:13:00):
respect like so many likeeverybody like a lot of people
view you as like the standard inAmerican trail running right
now.
Like what does that mean to youlike on an ending note?
Oh I mean I've just yeah I'veyou know I I like to think that
I'm uh you know pretty down toearth and try to try to try to
keep it modest so uh like I Ithink like the trail running

(01:13:22):
community especially like herein the US is just like
incredible I haven't I haven'tmet any other like professional
trailrunners who just are notgood people so I yeah I just try
to do my best to uh you knowrepresent the US trail running
community and it's yeah it'sit's it's nice to think here
that you know the other trailrunners think highly of me so uh

(01:13:42):
yeah just yeah it feels greatbut so cool well David thank you
so much for coming on man Iappreciate these talks we got to
do these once or twice a year asalways I I like I really
appreciate it we'll have to douh either uh one before or one
after Western States next yearbe fun to watch yeah well let me
know and I'll I'll make time tohop on it's it's been fun to
chat awesome man well thank youso much appreciate it awesome

(01:14:05):
stuff want to thank David somuch for coming on the podcast
again it's always fun having ourour annual conversations and no
doubt next year after Westernstates we'll have some good
stuff to chat about andhopefully some good short trail
stuff as well we don't want tolose the guy to this ultra stuff
I don't know about that but umguys the best way you can
support David is to give him afollow on Instagram you can find
him at david.a dot sinclair dotninety two on Instagram it's

(01:14:29):
also going to be linked in theshow notes so you can give him a
follow there.
Yeah definitely uh a fun followand it's always fun to hear
David's story and just kind ofwhat he's been up to.
Really appreciate him beingcandid and talking about some of
the heart rate stuff.
Like uh just interesting uh justwhat kind of just he's such a
beast of an athlete so coolstuff there.
So all good stuff for all of usto learn.

(01:14:50):
Yeah the best way you couldsupport the podcast as well give
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And very last but not least youcan also support us by
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If you go ahead on check outultimatedirection.com if you pop
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(01:15:13):
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#127 - David Sinclair