#131 - Dan Curts - The Steep Stuff Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
I'm your host, James Loriello,and I'm so excited to welcome
Dan Kurtz back to the pod.
That's right, Dan Kurtz back onto recap his 2025 season and
spitball a bunch about thesport.
Super fun to have Dan back on.
We got into the nuts and boltsof a season.
We talked about a recentcoaching change he made, talked

(00:21):
a lot about racing and where Danwants to improve and what
improvements he's looking for.
Talked a lot about the sport aswell, where we think the sport
is and where it's going.
Sport improvement.
Talked about a lot about themedia space as well in the sport
and building stars and thesubultra/slash short trail
scene.
Kind of comparing that to theultra side.

(00:42):
Yeah, this was just a greatepisode.
I think you guys are gonna get alot out of this.
A lot of talk about racingabroad and in Europe, um, a lot
of talk about media and a lot oftalk about just what Dan's been
up to and you know, kind ofwhere he's going.
So without further ado, I hopeyou guys enjoy this one, Dan
Kurt.

(02:05):
Dan Kurtz, welcome back to theSteep Stuff Podcast.
How's it going, man?
Good, yeah, yeah.
How are you doing?
I'm doing good.
Stoked to have you back on.
It's been a uh busy summer foryou, and I always love doing
these like catch-up episodesjust to uh recap the summer,
catch up on what's been goingon, and uh, you know, spitball
about the sport and the sportsdirection.
I know you're you're always agood thought leader, so it's

(02:27):
always fun to have theseconversations.

SPEAKER_02 (02:28):
So yeah, thanks for having me on.
I'm excited about it.

SPEAKER_01 (02:31):
Yeah.
All right.
So let's let's get into it,dude.
Um how uh I don't know.
You you had kind of a funnyseason in the sense where you
spent a lot of time in Europe.
Uh you were over there for aminute, you're you just got back
semi-recently.
Talk to me about that.
How was the Europe trip?
How were your reflections andthoughts on the season?
Kind of let's let's break intoit from there.

SPEAKER_02 (02:53):
Yeah, so uh I guess I'll start earlier in the year.
So I kicked off the year atCanyons.
Um and the race went well.
I was kind of banged up thiswinter.
Um, I was living out in my vanin Boulder.
Um, and I had tweaked my knee,coming kind of off of like a

(03:17):
little bit more.
Well, basically last year Ibroke my toe in Thailand in
December.
Um, and I couldn't even likehave Nordic ski boots on without
bugging it.
So then I was basically justtaking time to have that um come
back to where I could train onit, and then basically got out
to Boulder and had much betteraccess to like dry trails than I

(03:41):
did in New Hampshire.
Like there's it's much colder inNew Hampshire.
And so uh got out there andstarted doing some bigger vert
runs than I'd been doing and uhtweaked my knee.
So then I spent between I don'tgonna be fuzzy on the calendar
on that, but until Canyons, Idid my first flat run the day I

(04:04):
left for the race at Canyons.
Wow.
Um and I couldn't run flatbefore that, so I was just
basically hiking like thesteepest line on green like
every day, pretty much.
Um so yeah, that was like kindof a wasn't sure what was gonna
happen race.
And then uh it went well.

(04:25):
Um, just tried to run aggressiveand see what happened.
And uh the race went well.
Stayed out in Tahoe for a littlebit after and like kind of
moseied my way back across thecountry to Boulder.
Um, but I was off trail inTahoe.
So I haven't I haven't reallytold people this yet, I guess.
But I was off trail in Tahoeafter Canyons.
It was like May 1st.
I went back through photos tolike corroborate.

(04:48):
Um, and I fell real hard.
Um on my tailbone, like a rockjust broke underneath me, kind
of like fell back, caught myselfwith my hands, but um basically
took like a triangle-shaped rockto the tailbone, and um it was
like pretty bad, and Istubbornly kind of ignored it.

(05:10):
Um, but like I couldn't sit orsleep or pee without it like
bugging me quite a lot for sixweeks probably.
Um so basically I got back fromthat and was like, oh well, I
guess this is gonna bug me alittle bit.
And it still bugs me on occasionif I'm doing certain exercises.

(05:32):
Um, so I don't know if I I don'tknow what I did entirely.
But I yeah, so then I got backto Boulder and I had this like
senitus challenge that I wasreally excited about doing, and
I kept just feeling like, whatis going on?
Like, I'm not right, I'm notright, I can't climb well.
It's like just not clicking.

(05:53):
Um, but you kind of like putthat aside, and uh I don't know.
I at least I was like kind ofburying my head in the sand on
it, and uh ended up getting outfor Sunapee.
Uh the Sinitas Challenge wentkind of fine.
It was like a cool La Sportivachallenge, yeah, uh Sportiva
plug.

(06:13):
And uh they're putting up like agrand for whoever had the
fastest time on this segment forthe month.
Um and I ended up second on it.
Mason ran really quick.
Uh and I guess I wasn't asfrustrated being second on it.
I was just really frustratedwith like not being right, you
know.
Like I felt like I really wantedto go out there and like have a

(06:34):
what I felt like was like areally good effort, and like I
got everything out of myself.
And I just kept not being ableto have that.
My quads would just completelyimplode.
Um, so whatever get out toSunnepe.
That's kind of like the nextthing, like US championships,
which was my A goal for the yearfor sure.
Um and it was just more of thesame.

(06:55):
Uh the day before Sunapee, Icouldn't run.
I was trying to do my shakeoutjog, I couldn't run.
My hip got really, really messedup from the tailbone thing
because um I just wasn't movingright at all.
I was like trying to really, mybody was like trying to avoid
that.
So uh I couldn't get in with aCairo until after the race, and

(07:19):
he was pretty impressed with howmessed up things were.
But I saw him a handful of timesum and got things more sorted
out, and then basicallybasically I think I just
completely fried my quads umbecause I couldn't use like
posterior chain at all.
Um so yeah, at all those races,I just kept being like unable to

(07:43):
climb.
Um, I look weird running in thevideos at Sunope.
Like I was it's just it was veryfrustrating because I other than
other well, that's I guess a bigpiece of fitness, but but yeah.
So those races went veryfrustratingly for me.
I ended up, I don't know whatplace I was at Sunope.

SPEAKER_01 (08:02):
If I didn't write it down, I didn't I wasn't planning
on talking about it.
I was gonna I was gonna jumpover that that topic.
Yeah, no, I'm I'm very upsetabout it.
You were right at the mix.
I mean, you were right there.
It's kind of crazy, dude.
Like the fact that like you werepretty compromised and still
were able to stay in the mix,and you were what one off, two
off.
You were I think you were oneoff right there.
No, I think it was Andy and I.

(08:23):
That's right.
That's right.
Andy was right there.

SPEAKER_02 (08:25):
Yes, and then I was sixth.
Um it just wasn't, I didn'tgoing up the first climb on the
first lap, I knew I was introuble during that race.
And I was like, all right, well,I think I'll be the best person
in the descents in this race.
Um and you know, like maybe usethat to cheat my way a little

(08:46):
bit, kind of like fake thefitness, kind of.
Um, so then I got back up into Iwas leading through the first
lap, yeah, but I knew like I washappy because I was able to run
that first ascent controlled,and I I remember looking down as
I got my heart rate back down tolike 140, and I was like, okay,
cool, like that's okay.

(09:07):
But the second we startedclimbing again, I was like
complete toast.
Um and just had to like walk myway the whole second climb, and
yeah.
So that race was reallyfrustrating.
Um and then stopped doing prettymuch still didn't really know

(09:28):
what was up at that point, andthen it was like Cirque series
at Canon and Killington.
Yeah.
Um, and that was just likelocal, kind of like easy way to
get money.

SPEAKER_01 (09:39):
Um what I because I bumped into you, I saw you at
Killington, and it was likeright after we talked a little
bit, and it was like right afteryou had seen the doctor, and I
think things were lookingbecause you had a great race
there.
I mean, dude, you dropped likewhat a sub-14 or sub-15 minute
5k on the descent there.
So things were moving relativelywell.

SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
Yeah, I think it was like 13-16 or so stupid.
Oh my god.
But again, I think some of theseraces, it's not some of these
races you can kind of fake.
Yeah, yeah.
Like for me on that course, thatsuited me very, very well.
Um, because it was like a for melike a super runnable downhill,

(10:21):
where it's like uh you know, I Ijust didn't get exposed by that
course, if that makes sense.
Yeah, um, so I don't think itwas necessarily like I think I
would be competitive on thatcourse again versus if you know
more people came out to it.
Yeah, but it's not like it's notpoking at your weaknesses for me

(10:43):
on that course, if that makessense.

SPEAKER_01 (10:45):
What about killing or sorry, what about canon?

SPEAKER_02 (10:47):
Because that's a bit canon was so frustrating.
Yeah, uh from the gun, I waslike worked.
I remember going up the firstclimb and like fourth a couple
minutes in, being like, What thehell is happening?
Like, I'm running so hard, likeI just don't want to be doing
this.
Uh and yeah, I was probably justin like a bad mindset after uh

(11:11):
Sonopee.
Um yeah, I mean Remy just Imean, if we're being honest, I
think it was pretty much justRemy and I in the race, and Remy
like crushed me on that course.
Um I had yeah, I this is theother thing, and now it's some
some stuff's coming back to me.
I just kept having these weirdfalls at all these things, and

(11:32):
that's that was one of the otherthings that kept frustrating me.
I ate shit on Sinatus, I fellhard at Sonopee, I fell hard at
Canon, I've got like a big scardown my leg.
Um, and I kept having thesetimes when I'm like, I don't
fall, like I keep having theselike kind of gnarly falls.

(11:52):
Um yeah, so that was the otherthing that was telling me like
you're just off.
Um, coordination wasn't quiteright.
It was just all those littlethings adding up, and yeah,
canon was super frustratingbecause it was also just really
bad conditions, and the descentwas like terrifying because I I

(12:14):
fell hard like up top, and itwas right where I'd fallen at
Sunopee.
And so I had like a serious gashdown my leg.
Um and just like babying thedescent after that, and uh
didn't know how close I was toRemy because it was so fogged

(12:35):
in.
Um but he I mean he just beat meon a course.

SPEAKER_01 (12:39):
Dude, everybody says that course is heinous.
I can't wait to go out there anddo it next year.

SPEAKER_02 (12:42):
Like I was it was cool, yeah.
The the climb is like you know,like techie northeast style
stuff, and then the descent wasuh just sopping wet moss grass
combo.
Um yeah, it was cool vibes for arace.

(13:03):
Um, it's always fun when theweather's just like completely
different.
Like it's one thing when it'slike bluebird out, but uh it's
cool when the weather's justcrap too.
Um yeah, so then I racedKillington, and Killington was
um they had like a bigger prizepurse for that.
It was like two grand.
Um if they didn't have money atthose two races, I wouldn't have

(13:26):
raced.
Um fair enough.
I mean, hey, you gotta, yeah.
Yeah, but I I like I also likeneeded the money from
Killington.
So I was basically like talkingwith Remy.
I was like, because we were likeplanning this Europe trip
together, and I was like, dude,if I don't win Killington today,
like I'm not coming.
Like I'm buying the plane ticketwith this money.
Uh yeah.

(13:47):
So that was that setup.
And then yeah, and then we wentto Europe.

SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
All right, let's get into oh actually, you know what,
let me let me reflect on a fewthings.
I don't know how deep you wantto get into it, but like just
for the audience, because I feltreally bad just like knowing
you, and then after the factthat like Senepede didn't work
out for you, that must have beenreally tough for you to
reconcile.
Like, can you go into a littlebit like how you were able to
bounce back from that and kindof maybe put that on a shelf

(14:13):
going into Europe?

SPEAKER_02 (14:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, I'm not sure I totally Idon't think I did.
Yeah, I mean, we can totally getinto that.
Um yeah, I was super frustrated.
I felt like, and I probablystill feel like, but that's
probably maybe just like ego asan athlete.
But yeah, I think I'm one of thebest US like classic style

(14:37):
racers, and um I didn't make theteam, like that's just what it
is.
I got beat by guys who werebetter than than me on the day,
and that's just how that works.
Um I think it's easy to befrustrated on that because like
I wanted to be at Worlds andwatching worlds uh yeah, really
sucked, uh for sure.

(14:58):
Um also like I think worlds wasreally frustrating for me in
Austria.
Like I got COVID um travelingout there and didn't know um and
felt horrific going into thatvertical.
Um, you know, had like it seemeda little far after COVID for

(15:20):
things to be kind of wrong, butI just you know, I was like had
a high fever and like throwingup going into the vertical and
then got back and tested.
But whatever.
So yeah, worlds has beenfrustrating for me so far.
Um yeah, I think uh had thingsgone differently, and you know,
I don't even know what thatlooks like.

(15:41):
Maybe not having that stupidfall in Tahoe, maybe just little
things tweaked.
I think the year looks a lotdifferent, but that's how it
goes.
Like you have to kind of rollwith it.
So yeah, it was reallyfrustrating, and uh that is part
of the sport too, where it'slike it sometimes gets so
frustrating.

SPEAKER_00 (16:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (16:01):
Um yeah, so then went out to Europe and was like
not entirely sure what to dobecause we were kind of waiting
to see what happened at Worldsto make like a better plan for
the year, and then it was likeholy crap, like you know, like
the A goal for the race is justa goal for the year isn't there.
I was hoping to like, you know,try to podium at Worlds and like

(16:23):
that's not a discussion anymore.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (16:26):
Well, it's frustrating too, man, because
like I feel like off and likeoff the couch, you could
probably like you have thecapability to do something like
that.
Not many people, especially inthe states, like can do that.
It's just that you had a badrace and didn't get on the team.
So it's funny you say thisbecause like I brought this up
with Tom.
I had a a pod with Tom and Paulrecently, and we were talking

(16:46):
about just spots, and like I waslike, dude, when are we ever
gonna like will we ever for theMountain Classic do something
where or in the vertical, likewhere we also have uh resume
spots available as well, likeone or two resume spots.
And it's because there's alwaysthat possibility where you land
in this gray area like you,where you're clearly one of the

(17:07):
best athletes in the country,but yet you're not on the team.
And it's like, well, what are wedoing here?
Is it just earn your spot, orit's you know, I I didn't really
like that.
Cause and this is not todisparage the the Mountain
Classic team.
I thought they were all amazingdudes.
I know all of them, they'refantastic athletes.
It's just that like I also feellike if we were to truly send
our best, it would have includedyou.

(17:29):
And I gotta be honest aboutthat.

SPEAKER_02 (17:31):
I I think, but I think it's like more than yeah,
it's more than me on that team,too.
Like, I think if you look at it,I think Christian didn't have a
great race.
I don't think.
Um and so, and like, you know,and Andy was the other last
person to win that like UStitle.
Um none of us made the team.

(17:52):
We also just got beat by guyswho made like make the team.
So it's I don't know.
I can see both sides for sure.
Like tough spot.
Yeah, yeah.
It would it's easy for me to belike, oh, I want to be on that
team.
Like, you should have done aresume spot for me.
I'm like, well, why?
Like I got beat.
Yeah.
I don't know how I feel aboutthat.
Yeah, because there's so muchnuance on the day with the

(18:13):
course, too.
Like, I think when you looked atHan Frank, like how that course
layout was, um you needed to befast to like be far up in the
results, and Suna P did not likethe guy yeah, the guy's team

(18:36):
just that's not what Suna Pselected for entirely, but it on
paper the you know stats werereally similar.
So I don't know, it's not aperfect science.
Like things are gonna things aregonna um it's I think it's still
just fig getting it figured out,yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (18:55):
Yeah, I'm not I'm not sure where I stand on that.
It's a weird one, right?
Like I almost feel like in andthis is not to disparage Sonope
in any way because I love Tomand I love what he puts on, but
yeah, I feel like there werethere might have been better
courses.
But the question is, and I thinkTom would come back to defend
himself on this, is like, dothey I don't think they know
ahead of time.
I don't think you know much ofthe course, which kind of I I I

(19:15):
hope for 2027.
Yeah, 2020, yeah, 2027, we'llknow, have a better idea of what
that South African MountainClassic course looks like.
So it's easier to do that.

SPEAKER_02 (19:26):
Yeah, and you you maybe you can't.
I don't know entirely.
I mean, I've seen a lot ofphotos of the trails in Cape
Town, but it's possible in theUS we can't perfectly simulate
that course.
Like that's totally possible.
Uh but yeah, like you weresaying, I think the Sun of P
this that for me was reallyfrustrating.
I think I could run, I I'd befairly confident in saying

(19:48):
literally like seven days out ofthe week, I think I could go run
faster than I did on that courseon that on that day.

SPEAKER_01 (19:55):
Um like whatever.
What can you do?
What can you do?
I have one last question onthis.
Um, last year you were doing alot of the van life, especially
in Boulder and and kind ofplaying that game.
I know you I I'd read yourSinitas uh write up, and you
kind of talked a little bitabout like the trade-offs.
Like maybe this was the rightdecision, maybe it wasn't doing
the van life.

(20:15):
Is that something you'llcontinue to do in the future, or
are you more home base guy?
Like, I feel like there'strade-offs for both.

SPEAKER_02 (20:22):
Yeah, there's trade-offs for everything.
Yeah.
Um there's trade-offs to tryingto go to Europe and race for the
summer, right?
Like, there's it's always hard.
It's like how you convince likeyou have to like sacrifice like
friendships back home and like,yeah, all of it is trade-offs.

(20:42):
Uh for me, the van stuff hasbeen really cool.
Um, and I think it's at least atworst, it's like leaning into
like leaning towards a likelifestyle or like way of doing
things that um is valuable tome.

(21:05):
Um I don't want to like I I lovehaving the freedom.
I think this question could gosuper deep really easily.
I I love having the freedom togo do stuff like that, like um
be able to travel around, likegoing out to that canyons race
was super fun, but it was alsostressful.
Like I had I got stuck in ablizzard in Wyoming on the way

(21:28):
there.
Like they shut down the highway,so I like slept in I'm not gonna
remember the town name, and thenhad like a long run the next
day, and like there was nothingI could do.
I like fumbled around in like12-15 inches of snow, like off
trail for 90 minutes instead ofdoing like my long run, because
I just like it didn't make anysense.

(21:50):
So, like I think the van lifestuff teaches you to be like be
able to shift things around.
And well, honestly, maybe it'sthis is sounding dumber because
like the next day after that, Igot I broke down in uh like 10
miles into Utah, like an hourfrom Salt Lake, and then spent
the next day uh fixing the van.

(22:11):
So like I had to pull off likeeverything on the front end of
it and uh replace a pulley thatrequired pulling a ton of like
your a ton of stuff and theydidn't have it, and so I had to
use like a different, yeah,whatever.
That was like a disaster, but umI had dinner with like a Mormon
family that invited me, likewatched, saw me like working on

(22:32):
my van in the middle of the dayin this like tiny town in
Wyoming.
And uh I don't know.
The van stuff I think is great.
Um, but it's definitely yeah,there's pros and cons to
everything for sure.

SPEAKER_01 (22:45):
Interesting.
The dinner with the Mormonfamily sounds pretty cool.
That's I always it's always funto get to meet meet different
people.
So that sounds fun.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
This guy like stopped in uh yeah, we started
talking at like the auto shopand I was I was in the back of
the like auto zone or whateverwith a pair of calipers
measuring all of these uhpulleys they had back there to
see what other vehicles pulley Icould try to like either shave
down and use on mine, uh on myvan.
And uh whenever we startedtalking, and he like offered

(23:17):
help and then invited me over totheir place for dinner and
really, really tried to get meto go to church with them.
It was like a lot of pushing onthat.
Uh yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was it was interesting.
And then on the way back, I likewent back through highway 50.
Is that the is that the onethrough Nevada for a while

(23:37):
there?
And like so.
Yeah, just like camped out inthe desert.
And it was super cool, but umit's also like lonelier than if
you had like a place you wererenting with friends or
something like that.

SPEAKER_01 (23:48):
But yeah, that's cool.
You get to see all differentthings and just yeah, different
experiences.
All right, let's let's let'spivot to Europe.
First thing I gotta say on theEurope uh front is this this
hilarious and fun bromancebetween you and Remy LaRue is
kind of budded.
Uh Remy LaRue is one of myfavorite humans in the sport,
super good guy.
He's been on the podcast abunch.
Uh, talk about this.
Obviously, your teammate,competitor at times, like how

(24:12):
has this uh this friendshipdeveloped?

SPEAKER_02 (24:14):
Yeah, Remy's great.
So we raced a handful of timeslast year.
Um and I don't know, like youusually for me, I don't like
people, like especially if I'mracing them, I like don't like
them until I race them, or like,or I talk with them, and then
I'm like, oh, like all these allthese guys are great.

(24:35):
Like, yeah.
So I had no, I had didn't haveany preconceived notions for
Remy, but then we like the morewe talked to them, it's like,
oh, Remy's like Remy's the best.
Um, and so after Canadian Champslast year, um he was trying to
figure out contract stuff forthis year, and I was like, dude,

(24:56):
I mean, I think he'd be a greatad to the team.
And so like I put him in contactwith Jordan, our like athlete
manager, and he ends up he endedup getting signed with Brooks
this year.
Um yeah, yeah, I don't know.
We've just been like hanging outmore at different team stuff,
and like uh yeah, Remy's Remy'sthe best.
So we've been hanging out abunch and planned.

(25:17):
He lives quite close to me.
Um he's in Canada, but he livesyeah, very close to me.
So um we just plan on doing thisEurope trip together because we
do similar racing and um it'sjust so much more fun to do this
stuff with people than it is toyeah, fly to Europe solo and all
that stuff.

(25:37):
So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (25:39):
Yeah, I I say this as a prelude to uh, like I said,
we'll do a future episode withboth of you because I think that
could be a lot of fun.
Uh it's interesting becauseyou're two very similar athletes
in a lot of ways, where you'reboth two of the best mountain
classic athletes in in theworld, generally.
So it's kind of fun.
Hopefully you guys get to trainmore together.
You're both on the same team,and I'm interested to see where
this will go.
Because uh, especially thatyou're both in the northeast,

(25:59):
it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
So yeah, I mean, and we've we've had similar talks
about the northeast, justbecause, like, I mean, both of
us getting back from Europe,like we've both been like, dude,
it is it is good here.
Like it is, it is nice, like thetraining's great.
Like, he's been really happybeing back in uh Waterloo and
Quebec and being like, oh, it'sgood here.
But we're also like uh, youknow, it sucks to train solo all

(26:25):
the time.
Um, so we've been talking aboutuh doing a stint in Boulder this
winter.
Um, because the winter there isjust a lot easier.
So it would be kind of nice umlogistically to just be able to
run a lot more.
Um so that's that's our plan.
Kind of like go out to Bouldertogether this winter and do some
training um before uh hopefullya big Europe trip again next

(26:47):
summer.

SPEAKER_01 (26:48):
Okay.
All right.
Uh let's get into Europe fromthis past year.
For uh correct me if I missedany, but you raised Iger, ETC,
and Plutz Alpen Glacier.
Is that correct?
Or was there any more I missedin there?

SPEAKER_02 (27:00):
Uh yeah, yeah.
Alpine in the middle.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (27:05):
Uh yeah, let's we can start with, I guess I was
Plitz Alpin Glacier or Igerfirst for you?

SPEAKER_02 (27:10):
Iger was Iger was first.
It was like a couple days afterwe got in.

SPEAKER_01 (27:13):
Okay.
All right.
Yeah, break it down for me.
How was this trip?
What uh yeah, I mean, obviously,like pretty competitive racing,
lots of fun, it seemed like.
Where did you stay?
Where did you go?
Like, give me the whole uh thepaper.

SPEAKER_02 (27:25):
Yeah, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna totally botch a
lot of things on the schedulethere.
Um, what happened?
We met up in Boston um becausewe were looking at flights out
of Montreal, out of Boston.
It looked Boston was like sevenor eight hundred dollars round
trip um to Europe.
So we were like, I mean, that'sthat's fantastic.

(27:46):
Yeah, um, so we ended up flyingout of Boston, um same flights,
got into Geneva, and then we hada Brooks like team camp in
Lesouches, um, just down thevalley from Chamonix in the in
the Chamonix Valley.
Um yeah, so we got into Geneva.
The first, like, I think, well,this was like the weirdest thing

(28:07):
of the trip for me.
We got into Geneva and we'relike waiting on our transfer
like shuttle to Chamonix, and uhlike trying to find it, trying
to find it, and finally we findthe bus and it's uh Brooks ad.
We're like, no way, it's like aBrooks, like the shuttle is like
a Brooks sponsored shuttle.
That's like super funny.
And then the the rear of it isjust like a photo from of me

(28:28):
from this like photo shoot wehad done last November, and I
was like, This is the weirdestthing.
I had no idea they were usingthis photo at all, and like
yeah, the the sport is weirdbecause there was for me, I was
like, that's so cool.
Like, my mom would be pumped onthis kind of thing, but it's
also weird because you're like,I'm not really like you don't

(28:49):
really make that much moneyeither, and so it's like this
weird dichotomy of things goingon.
You're like, it's weird to feellike a touch.
I don't know, it's obviously notlike celebrity status in any
shape or form, but like it isweird to see like that's
friggin' me.
Yeah, you take a picture with apicture, yeah, for sure.
Yeah, yeah.

(29:11):
This is weird, but can you takea photo of me with this?
Because that's so funny.
Uh yeah, and then we got intoLesouchen.
Um we weren't there for long,and then we took the train out
to uh uh Grindelwald.
Um, we stayed in Interlock in inSwitzerland, um, because it was
much less expensive than stayingin Grindelwald.

(29:34):
Um and then yeah, Remy was doinglike the 15k.
I think he had like a 10 milerace pretty much, and then yeah,
15 or 16k, whatever it was.
And then I was doing, I don'tremember how long it was
supposed to be.
It ended up being like rightabout 20 miles.
Um, and honestly, it was kind ofthe same story of this year for

(29:57):
me.
I thought I was super ready forit.
We had Like shifted nutritionapproach.
And it was pretty much a lot ofclimbing in the first half.
And then you had a long, reallyrunnable descent.
Um I think it was like a 15%grade for five miles or
Um and I just ran with um theguy leading Stian.

(30:25):
Um and was like, okay, I feellike on that descent, like I
should be I feel like I could dothat descent with anybody.
So I that's that's kind of myrace tactic.
Like I don't want to overcookthings because I've had this
problem with cramping at allthese races, especially like
pretty much anything over 90minutes, it's been like an
issue.
Um even canyons, even canyons,the like climb back um out of

(30:49):
the canyon.
I was like cramping up and I waslike, what the heck?
So like if that race was anothermile of climbing before the
finish, before dropping downinto town, I would have I don't
think I would have won.
Like I would have lost a coupleminute gap to Eddie and he would
have beaten me.
Um so I don't know.
So like obviously there's eithera pacing component to that or

(31:12):
whatever.
It's been kind of like a realfrustrating thing for me for the
last since I've started doingtrails.
Um so trying to figure that outstill.
So at uh yeah, at the Iger race,I ended up losing uh the lead.
I had a decent lead at you know,whatever 18, 19 miles, and start

(31:36):
cramping so bad.
I'm having to like, I just likecould not run through it.
I'm just like moaning throughthe last couple miles, like
having to hobble down anydescent.
Um and uh yeah, so got secondthere in I don't know, it just
felt like embarrassing.
Like, I don't know, I felt likeI was the best runner there and

(32:01):
wasn't.
Uh so yeah, had tweaks nutritionaround that, trying to fix that
problem, and just again, kind ofsame thing.
Um so yeah, that was the Igerrace.
Yeah, I it was really cool, itwas a fantastic area.
You end up doing like a VK umfrom Vengen up, and Vengen is

(32:24):
the town that sits aboveLauterbrunen, which is what
Rivendell is based off of.

SPEAKER_01 (32:29):
Oh, no way.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (32:30):
You're running, I'm like, holy shit, that's like
Rivendell, like right there.
And so like I took a video oflike because I would like wanted
to show my family that kind ofthing.
Um yeah, so like it's afrustrating result for me, but I
was also like, it was so cool.
Like, we we the trip was so fun,yeah, it was awesome.
Um so yeah, frustrating result,but um just I I'm hoping it's

(32:56):
just another thing to likelearning, figuring out what's
what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 (32:59):
So yeah, I do want to get well, I I we'll talk
about ETC and Plitz AlpinGlacier because I do have some
stuff I want to talk about onETC specifically.
Um, and then I do want to get tocoaching stuff because I feel
like there's some goodthroughways and some threads to
talk about in that.
Um I'd say if you want to getinto Plitz Alpin Glacier, we can
get into that.
I know honestly, I'm sure I'msure you you probably weren't

(33:20):
stoked on how it ended up.
I mean, especially with themcutting this course short and
stuff like that.
I feel like it was your course,though, in a lot of ways, with
some of the more technicaldescending.
Like, what did you think of thecourse, the changes, and just
the shit weather on the day?

SPEAKER_02 (33:32):
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, I don't know what I wouldhave done differently.
I ended up 14th, I believe.
Um I don't know what I've donedifferently.
Yeah, the weather was bad.
It was like a 5k to start prettyflat in the valley.
Um, really wet, uh, not a ton ofclimbing.

(33:55):
Not, I don't remember how muchclimbing, but basically you
start out of town, do like agradual climb up a road, but
you're at altitude.
Um, we were like way up thisvalley um in Austria.
Like the drive-in was reallykind of crazy.
You're just like vague goingvaguely uphill, like forever
getting out there.
Um and yeah, Christian Allentook it out.
Um, I was like, there's noreason I'm gonna lead, but I was

(34:20):
um just found myself like behindhim.
It didn't feel like we wererunning very hard.
Um and then we kind of you gothrough like a cow grate, cow
gate, cow grate on the ground, Iguess.
Yeah.
And then you start on this likekind of gnarly cross-country
section, um, because it was wet.
There's grassy, wet with rocksand stuff, and you're like

(34:43):
hopping around a bit.
Christian fell pretty quickly inthere.
And so I like went over him, andthen Taylor and I were leading.
Um, I guess I was leading andTaylor's with me.
We were just like runningtogether, kind of like talking.
Um yeah, and so the first partsof these races always feel
really, really easy for me.
Like, I think that first lap,you know, is whatever 18, 20

(35:04):
minutes or something.
And I'm like, oh, I could haverun that way faster if I had to,
you know.
Um, but I I think this will getinto the coaching stuff.
But yeah, basically we get tothe climb, and uh I don't feel
like I'm pressing way too hard,and that just like the legs pop.
Um, and then there's like thenI'm like pushing as hard as I

(35:26):
feel like I can, and the heartrate's like 150, um, which had
kept being kind of this umproblem.
So at these past races, um, itwas kind of the same thing at
like Sunopee, like the legs arejust gone, and I'm like I
couldn't be going harder, andyeah, I can't get the heart rate
up pretty much.

(35:47):
Um so so yeah, that race wasjust frustrating.
We got up top um to like thislake we ran around, and yeah,
they had changed the course.
We didn't go to the summit likewas planned because it was like
and it was cold and dumping, andthere was snow up high, and uh
yeah, and then like I was justpopped, and so I didn't descend

(36:07):
quick or run flat fast.
So it's just like yeah, I yeah,it was just kind of a
frustrating result.
Um I think I ran fine, like Ibeat good guys still, but it was
not I didn't finish and likeyes, like that was a good one.
Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (36:26):
Interesting, yeah.
I don't know.
Do you think you'll do moregolden trail stuff down the
line?
Is that is that something yeah,you could like I mean if there's
compelling races, I feel likethere's you know, like there's
opportunities, especially nowwith them like picking like
Platop and Glacier and likeother um, you know, different
courses, like more diversecourses.
Like I'd love to see you in likethe Dolomites course and shit

(36:47):
like that.
I think it would be kind of fun.
There's all kinds of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 (36:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, no, that stuff looksawesome to me.
I think training-wise, I justneed to get to a point where I
can like uh once I can like racethose things, I think it'll be
great.
Um, but I'm definitely certainlythis season, I've had a hard
time like being able to.
I just don't feel like I've beenat a point where I can push for

(37:11):
these events.
Um yeah, where it's a lot ofdays I feel like I could go out
and do like a hard training runand approach it differently and
end up with a quicker time, ifthat makes sense.
Yeah.
Um yeah, so maybe that fallsinto the like training coaching

(37:32):
talk stuff, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (37:34):
All right, let's one more thing.
Let me just I just want to askyou about ETC real quick.
Do you think that should be thede facto 20k world championship
in any way?
Like, because I I was reallyimpressed with the like the
turnout this year.
Like there it was actually likerelatively competitive, it
seemed like.

SPEAKER_02 (37:48):
Yeah, and like El Hussein was supposed to start.
He didn't, like, there was a lotof people that were uh that were
there.
Um, yeah, it was a great race.
Um, I don't think it shouldwell, it's actually interesting,
yeah.
Now that I'm before I sayanything, I don't like um I
think worlds should be the venuethat's treated like that,

(38:11):
especially for the short stuff.
That being said, the courses andthe way they're doing it, I
don't think is awesome.
I think they've made the lastcouple um worlds courses for
classic and uh yeah, well, moreclassic for sure.
Um I don't know, it feels like abit of an afterthought to the

(38:32):
longer races.
Um, but the classic race, Idon't see how it's less deep
than any of these other races.
Like it's so good to podium atthat race is as hard to put.
There's I don't, you know,there's not a race where it's
like much harder to podium at, Idon't think.
And um so yeah, but but I thinkthey're choosing these like

(38:54):
really quick runnable courses,and they they kind of have
wanted you seemingly starting intown or running through town at
some point, which kind of takesaway.
Um, it seems like at Worlds themountain races have been trail
races, and the trail races havebeen mountain races.
Um I think they should all justbe mountain races.
I don't know why wedifferentiate between trail and

(39:14):
mountain anyway, but um that's awhole different topic.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I guess I guess it would be coolto me if the uh worlds was the
worlds was the worldchampionship for it, but uh I
think also ETC is going to be avery, very, very good race um

(39:37):
from here on out for sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (39:39):
Yeah, like Remy had high thing, he had a lot of good
things to say about that racespecifically, which is and it
caught my radar just because Iwas surprised by the turnout
this year.
Like there was a pretty decentfield, and had Al Hussein been
there as well um and others,like it would have been yeah.
I mean, hopefully, like I said,it'll grow because like that's
the thing.
Like OCC is cool, but that's areally long race.
And it's like we don't haveanything really under that.

(40:01):
And for the Mountain Classicathletes, like that's just a
perfect kind of meet in themiddle kind of spot.

SPEAKER_02 (40:05):
So I think it's a yeah, and they have the terrain
to do it super easily, like thelogistics anywhere near Shamani
to do a steep race from town andfinish in town is super easy.
Um, so yeah, I I it would becool to see that continue to
grow.
Um but yeah, I mean it was agood race this year.

(40:27):
And I think Remy obviously feelsgood about it because he he ran
very well there.
And um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (40:34):
All right, let's uh all right, let's shift to
coaching.
I feel like this is a topic wegot to get to.
Um, you obviously made a apretty notable coaching change
in this past offseason, or justpretty recently, I would
imagine.
Um, and you've been doing a lotof different stuff.
Uh for those that follow you onStrava, a lot of weights, a lot
of treadmill stuff.
In fact, you broke a treadmillrecently that might have been
today, yesterday.

(40:55):
Uh yesterday.
Yesterday.
Uh talk about it.
What's uh what prompted thischange and uh what what makes
you confident going forward onit?

SPEAKER_02 (41:04):
Yeah, so I'd been working with Rick Floyd um since
going into Broken Arrow lastyear, not this past season, but
the year before.
Um and Rick is the best.
Rick is awesome.
Um, but I just didn't feel likewe were having a total um game

(41:26):
plan on like figuring out thecramping thing.
And I think he was a bitconfused on it, and I I am, and
I don't know.
I didn't feel like we had agreat um, yeah, I guess like
plan to figure that out or likeknow what to do on it kind of
thing, because we had liketweaked nutrition in the ways

(41:46):
that we figured, you know, thathas to do it, and like some of
these races I was cramping inare just like too short for it
to totally make sense to becramping in.
Um, and so yeah, I've beenworking with Jack Kenzel for the
last six weeks, something likethat.
Um so yeah, uh I I it is of myopinion um that the cramping

(42:09):
stuff for me is a muscularthing, yeah, more than anything.
I think some of the way theseraces have gone point to that.
Um I think I think like myceiling like out for output, or
like being I I'm I'm very goodif I have to do a short rep,

(42:32):
like four four minutes orsomething like uphill, flat,
downhill.
That's kind of the thing I'mbest at.
But that seems to like fade umas that goes along.
So I think at a race like that,um Pitts Alpine race, it makes
total sense.
Because like like talking withjust gonna talk about Remy this

(42:52):
whole time, but that first lap,um, you know, I came, I could
come through leading in thatrace and feel like not working
that hard sub subjectively,right?
But for Remy, you know, he waslike, dude, I don't know how I
would be further up in thisrace.
And then it bottlenecks andyou're on this hard climb, and

(43:12):
so you're he's kind of likestuck back, but he's like, I
don't know what I would do.
I couldn't run that much faster.
Um and he was back like prettyfar back.
Um, and then for me, I kind ofhave the opposite problem, it
seems, where it's like, yeah, Ican be up there, but then it
seems like I just can't holdlike a higher output.

(43:34):
Um, so I don't know if it's justa lack of muscular endurance.
I think partially it's also justum maybe even just like a
nervous system thing, like beingvery excited um and like amped
for that kind of stuff.
Um, but that comes at a cost.

(43:55):
So it seems to me like that iscurrently the problem.
And I think if I want to be asgood as I would like to be in
performances, that that's gonnabe a big shift training-wise.
Um I think getting up to doing20 hours of volume a week and um

(44:16):
holding that and doing a lot ofjust easy volume and um I view
it as kind of like retraininglike the musk muscles entirely.
Um because yeah, I think from abackground standpoint, like I
loved doing things like the 800or the thousand or the 1500

(44:40):
prelim of something.
And I was I was very good atthat.
But I think a lot of that doescome from like the the nervous
system being just like wired,and that's how I am like my
personality too.
Um, so I think that's all stuffI need to kind of realign
because at at these races, ifyou're going out just because it

(45:03):
feels okay, doesn't mean that'san effort you can sustain.
Um, and so I think the fact thatmy ceiling is far enough above
that is actually not a goodthing in the short term.
I think in the long term itspeaks to like maybe a potential
ability, but it doesn't matterif you can't get there.
Um, so yeah, I've been workingwith Jack because I think he is

(45:27):
well, and he's fantasticallyorganized.
Like he's got problems for sure.
Um, that's been great for me.
Um and um so yeah, yeah, it'sbeen it's been good working with
him.
So so so far we've we can getinto what we've been doing or

(45:48):
yeah, yeah.
Please, please go for it.
I want to hear it all.

SPEAKER_01 (45:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:51):
So I guess one of the first things we did was kind
of like uh did like a drift testkind of thing.
And so I went to the track andbasically ran.
Um I've never done any sort oftesting, never done a BO2 max,
I've never done any testing.
Lactate, all that.
Yeah, yeah.
I've never done any of it.
Um, but I've run and trainedenough that I have a good guess

(46:12):
as to what my like zone two kindof heart rate is.
It's like what I have to keep toon an easy day.
Um, so we went to the track andlike kind of confirmed what we
thought those I was, you know, II was totally right.
I like said I bet it's 148 to152 plus or minus, you know, one

(46:32):
beat pretty much.
Um and it was it ended up being153 in the test we did.
And so like went to the trackand did like a 63 minute, 63
minutes of like laps around thetrack, pretty much.
And yeah, so that correlates toa pace and a heart rate.
And so now in training, likedon't go above that heart rate.
Um and then we've been liftingum just to try to make sure

(46:55):
there's not an obvious likestrength deficit kind of thing.
Um and lifting's been super fun.
I felt like I got much strongerlike very quickly.
Um, so we were doing kind oflike uh yeah, we were doing like
as many reps as possible, prettymuch progression of things, like
as many reps as possible.

(47:16):
Like, obviously, you're notgonna hurt yourself, like you're
gonna go not go truly tillfailure.
But um what I do, I think thelast deadlift I did was 275 14
times.

SPEAKER_01 (47:27):
Damn, dude.

SPEAKER_02 (47:29):
Um and so like afterwards, you're like you're
like breathing heavy and stuff.
You're like, that's weird.
Like felt like uh yeah, but um,so we worked up through lifts.
Um yeah, I think the three weekswere I think I did 240, 240 or
245 12 times.
The next week I did 260 16times, and then 275 14 times in

(47:55):
like the three weeks.
Um, so basically just want tomake sure there's like I I could
hit like a base level ofstrength, um, that that wasn't
an issue um from the muscularside.
Um, so now um I think as of thisweek, it's more okay.
We think that's fine.
Um, that all points to goodstuff.

(48:16):
And so now it's just volume.
Uh yeah, press the volumebutton.

SPEAKER_01 (48:21):
That's interesting.
I always find it so interesting,especially because like for
someone like you, you only needto find between like what one to
three percent, if that, to be atthe front of a race.
So like for someone like Jackthat as a coach to reapproach
things and try to figure out,okay, like what can we change
here, you know, to an alreadyextremely talented athlete, it's
got it's an interesting mathproblem.

(48:42):
So I like to hear like, well,because Jack's a brain and he's
got a lot of respect to not justlike what he's done with other
athletes, but especially Caleb.
Like when he got a hold ofCaleb, he's really you know
helped Caleb a ton in the thingsthat he's been able to
accomplish.
So it's gonna be cool to seewhat you guys are able to
accomplish on the short trailside.

SPEAKER_02 (48:58):
Yeah, and it's it's cool too.
I think one uh yeah, I guessfrom my point of my side, it's
like um yeah, I feel like it'sjust in my hands because at some
point it you can do all of theright things on paper, but it
you could not be hitting themark or have it not be

(49:20):
productive for reasons that noone sees.
Um so for me, I think stuff likemaking sure I'm like tighter
about sleep and nutrition andtiming stuff.
Um, I think some of like yousaid talent earlier.

(49:40):
I think I think that the talentthing we use typically around
running, like to mean like atrack talent.
Yeah, and that's not I wasalways better at like shorter
things.
I wasn't like a 5k, 10k guy, Iwas like a mile 5k guy.
And like yeah, I mean, I wastalking with Remy about this the

(50:05):
other day, just to bring up Remyagain.
But like I think when I've runmy fast, my 5k PB, I still was
like it like going through 3Kbeing like feeling fantastic,
and then even just at 5k beinglike like trying to survive.
Um and so, like again, thatspeaks to this same.

(50:27):
This was also the other stuffgoing on in my head when trying
to figure out what the heck isgoing on, why do I keep
cramping?
Um yeah, coming through 3K andlike 805, 807 or whatever it is
in the 5K and being like feelingcrate.
But that's still like eightminutes is still not beyond
where you're like in VO2, butyou're in like VO2 max

(50:48):
territory.

SPEAKER_00 (50:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (50:49):
Um and then it just like kind of cratering, like the
effort just feels like it spikesreally high.
Um, and so I think it's justlike working way above what is a
sustainable effort level.
Um, so yeah, for me, again, thatall speaks to like it might be
talent for a different thing.

(51:10):
And I think I'm good on like atechnical trail or something
like that, and like that ispositive.
But if I can't put those thingstogether, you're not gonna be
any good.

SPEAKER_01 (51:20):
Yeah, no, no, you're right, you're right.
But I mean, yeah, not to glazeyou too hard, but like at the
end of the day, too.
Like, you uh I I mean, assomeone that's tapped into the
sport pretty well, knows most ofthe people, like I do put you up
there as like one of the mosttalented athletes to come into
our sport.
And dude, you've proven it withtwo worlds teams, you've done a
lot of shit.
So I mean, I think at the end ofthe day, it's just you know, a

(51:41):
few tweaks and you should haveit figured out.
I don't think it's uh, you know,but that's me on the outside,
not you know, not really knowingtoo much.

SPEAKER_02 (51:49):
So yeah, well, yeah, thank you.
Um, yeah, it's just it isinteresting because I think
there's a reason, obviously,there's reasons why Jim ascends
and is Jim and uh yeah, uh it itwasn't because he was so quick
at the 400 or something, youknow.

(52:11):
Whereas classically, that's likehow I think we would define a
talent, you know.
If you're a 5k guy who can run47 in the 400, you're like, oh,
he's like so talented orsomething, but Jim can't run 47
in the 400, and obviously thethe talent he has is
fantastically helpful at uh whathe's doing.

(52:33):
Also, I think the amount of workhe puts in and how dialed he is
on everything and how much he'sthinking about it all the time.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (52:42):
Do you are you obsessive like that?
Like Jim's a lunatic, from whatI understand.
Like I've never met himpersonally, but from the people
I do know that do know him isthat he's kind of obsessed in a
lot of different ways about it.
How do you think about the sportthat way?
Like, do you go to sleep everynight thinking about it and wake
up in the morning thinking aboutit too?

SPEAKER_02 (52:58):
I think what I'm for sure, I yeah, talking with Jim
is so fun.
Um, he was out in Vermont forlike a week last year, and so we
ran together a handful of timesand like had some like bonfire
hangouts, that kind of stuff.
Um yeah, he's so animated aboutthe sport, and I think like
that's the stuff we need moreon.
I think there's so many peoplein the this is a complete uh a

(53:20):
side to your question, but Ithink Jim being so excited, like
that just like totally draws mein.
Like, and it's the same withJack, like they're both like so
pumped on the sport and like sointo all these tiny race details
going on somewhere in Europethat no one else is following
along with.
And it's like that's part of whythey're so good, is because this
sport does um select for thatstuff in some ways, like being

(53:43):
hyper-organized on some of thatstuff, and really um it takes a
lot of the mental side ofthings.
And um, I think there's a lot ofpeople who are in the sport that
it kind of irks me sometimeswhen everyone's like, Oh, it's
just running.
It's not that like, yeah, it isjust running, but it's also like
we all think it's the coolestthing.

(54:04):
Like, let's just like pretendlike it's the coolest thing, who
cares?
Like, yeah, I think that'sawesome.
Um, I am not as uh Jim is solike detail oriented on all that
stuff, and that's not really mypersonality entirely.
Um, I think when I'm at my best,I'm much more detail oriented.

(54:25):
Um, but it's easy for me to justget really excited about doing
some like adventure run that'snot always like the best thing
for training or something likethat.
Um, but for sure, like yeah,running and running stuff is
like the thing I'm most excitedabout.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (54:42):
On on that topic too, of like adventure run and
just the training that you'redoing, like is Jack very
specific with like, okay, I wantyou doing flat to rolling stuff,
or are you allowed to do vert,especially now that you're kind
of messing with strength andtrying to get that dialed in?
Like, is it no vert, less vert?
Like, how how does that work inyour plan?

SPEAKER_02 (54:59):
Yeah, pretty much every day for me.
So, like the thing I thinkneither Jack or I believe like I
need to work on my like flatspeed.
So, like there were a coupletimes where I'd do like some
flat workout like a year ago,and I would just get a text from
Jack being like, Okay, dude, younever do need to do another flat
workout again, which obviouslyis like a joke, but I think it

(55:22):
seems clear that I need to justbe better on like mountain
turning.

SPEAKER_00 (55:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (55:27):
Um, and so for me, basically every day on the
schedule is uh yeah, likeideally, I think the wording is
like ideally long sustainedclimbs.
Um so yeah, yeah, I haven't hada single day that's like make
sure to keep this flat.
I've done that, I'm training inup in Maine right now.

(55:48):
I'm at my been visiting family.
Um, and I'm training in Acadiaevery day, and the trails are
like it's so hard.
It's every step, most every stepis on granite.
That's just like very jumpy,like you're jumping up and down
a lot.
Um, and the trails are steep andrough.
And so there's been a coupledays where I'm like, dude, my

(56:08):
tendons are destroyed, I'm gonnarun flat today.
Um, and flat is rolling, it'snot like panky, panky, flat.
But uh yeah, the that stuff isplanned out, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (56:21):
Interesting.
Um, would you say, and this is Idon't want to take uh take us on
a completely different uh topic,but as far as now racing in
Europe and then living in theNortheast, I have always argued,
especially after being in theNortheast this year or this past
uh summer, I think the Northeastis more conducive for European
racing, like to train and getbetter at something like that
than the mountain west.

(56:42):
I I don't know.
People might disagree with that.
I don't know if you would agree,but I I definitely think so.

SPEAKER_02 (56:48):
Yeah, I mean, certainly certainly from a
weather standpoint, I thinkthat's true.
Um I personally think the trailsare really similar.
Um it was fun being out inShamani this year, being like
because every year I've beenlike, oh yeah, everyone's in
Shamani again, like whatever,it's not that cool.

(57:10):
And you know, just no, it's thecoolest.
It's just being in France, beingable to run on the trails is
awesome.
Um, but they were a lot moresimilar, like even the type of
trees, like I was like, what thelike this is exactly like this
one trail in Vermont.
Um, so yeah, I don't know.

(57:31):
I think it's I do think it's areally good spot for that.
I think you had David Sinclairon the other day.
Um, he was saying, yeah, I mean,Vermont's one of the better
places like in the world, hethinks.
And yeah, we don't we don't havea 7,000 foot climb out here, but
how many races have that?
And like you're just trainingfor it.
So like I think logisticallyit's super easy.

(57:54):
I went to the whites this pastweekend, and from Acadia, it's
like three and a half hours,it's to be at Pinkham Notch,
like going up Mount Washington.
Like, that's not that far.
Like, people in Colorado aredoing three and a half hour
drives all the time.
Like, if you want to go ski andyou live in Boulder, you have to
do that pretty much, you know.
Like, um, so I think there is alot more good mountain access

(58:18):
here than people think.
Um, I know this has now beenlike a through line on this
podcast, but um I know I bringit up every time I talk to a
northeast guy, so no, no, I meanpart of it is the weather, like
the Pitts Alpine race was uh,you know, it it the weather is
more similar, I think.
Yeah, um, and uh I think that'sa big piece of racing.

(58:43):
If you don't ever race in themud, uh it it is a totally
different thing.
Like if there aren't wet rocksall the time, it's totally
different.
The race, oh my god, in uhPoland last year.
What was it happened this yearagain, too?

SPEAKER_01 (59:00):
Was Tatra?

SPEAKER_02 (59:00):
Tatra, sorry, yeah, yeah.
The Tatra race, we were outthere, and I was like, this is
the same thing.
This is like a run in thewhites, like the rocks are the
same, like it was so similar.
And again, it dumped rain thatwhole time, it dumped rain this
whole time um this year at thatrace.
And I just think it's in someways easier to prepare for that

(59:25):
stuff in the east coast, butit's hard to say.
Like I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 (59:30):
It's it's like you guys want what we have in the
mountain west, and we want whatyou have in the northeast.
Because like you brought upBoulder and go in to spend time
in the boulder, and and inwinter, Colorado, the front
range is a great place to train.
Like, we don't really get a tonof snow, and it's not as cold.
It's especially, you know, weget what 300 days of sunshine a
year, which you guys can'treally claim in a lot of ways.
So it's uh it's definitelythere's trade offs.

(59:52):
But I, you know, I don't know.
Like you haven't really have youyou haven't really run in
Colorado Springs yet, I wouldimagine.
So like our trails are sobuttery, um, whereas like bull.
Boulder, it's much different.
It's a little more techie, morestraight up.
Like the trails are just builtdifferently, which is
interesting.
So I guess a lot of people are.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:06):
Boulder's cool.
I mean, the access to steeptrails, like right there on
green, is really cool.
There's a what is it?
Like there's like this northeastridge trail that's like super.
I love that trail.
It's awesome.
Um, but still it's like thesustained, I don't know.
I ran two hours 45 today.
I ran like four just just justshy of 15 miles with like 3,400

(01:00:31):
feet.
It's like I was not doinganything really, really steep
and like didn't do a ton ofclimbing.
Like the stats are just notimpressive, like slow going a
lot of the time.
And um it's just a totally kindof different thing.
Um, I I think if you weretraining in the whites for a

(01:00:51):
couple years, like I think youcan pretty much get ready for uh
pretty much anywhere, likeespecially if you're out in the
winter, like the conditions areso heinous, you're like doing
more Everest prep than uhanything else.
That's terrible.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:09):
Um all right, let's let's pivot.
I want to talk a little bitabout the state of the sport
with you.
I know we always love to riff onthis stuff, um, especially after
this season.
Like, where do you see things,man?
You think the sport's in a goodplace?
What do you like?
What do you not like?
I know this is a very open-endedquestion, so I can get more uh
nitty-gritty if you want, butI'm just keeping it open.
If there's anything that sticksout to you that you want to get

(01:01:30):
into, I'm happy to chat about.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:32):
Yeah, I mean, I think the sport's in a good good
place.
It seems like everything'sgrowing, um, and growth in terms
of like how that affectspeople's contracts and stuff is
awesome.
Like, that's what we all want.
Like, you want to make a lifefrom this sport, and like so do
I, and so do like you know, allmy friends, pretty much.
Um, so I think that's that's allgood.

(01:01:55):
Um I think just as it has to belike somewhat directed.
I think like that's people's bigissue with some of these races.
It's like you know, you get intothe conversations about the UTMB
stuff with people uh beingfrustrated about how to access
races and all those things.

(01:02:15):
And I I guess that's just likegrowing pains of things.
Um it seems like things are in agreat spot.
I don't know.
It seems like things are growingreally quickly, and um that
shift is really exciting.
Like Nike launching ACG and umBrooks with our new shoe, like
the Cascadia Elite is like that.

(01:02:36):
Seems like a it's such a bigleap from like the shoes that we
had when I signed.
Um yeah, that that's all superexciting to me.
Like the amount of growth in thelast couple years has been
seemingly nuts.
Um it's gonna be reallyinteresting what the next five
years is like.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:54):
Yeah, it's gonna get nuts.
Dude, on the topic of shoes, theI mean, not to mention, like
Cascadia Elite is a legit shoe.
I haven't actually got to holdone or see one in the wild yet.
Um, also, your catamanage was acool shoe.
I was playing with that at theshoe store the other day.
I was like, damn, like, yeah,you guys have good shoe tech.
I gotta say, like, I gotta handit to Brooks.
You're good at picking teammatesas well.
Like, your teams teams arereally good, cool people.

(01:03:16):
Um, but also your shoes are dopetoo.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:18):
So the team has been super fun this year.
We had like a big group at SunaP.
And so like Brooks had like gotus a house in at Suna P.
And it was like just such a goodtime, you know.
I feel like a lot of the thingswith the sport are a bit
contrived, and like maybe youhave like the Terex hangout in
Shamini, and you're likeobviously it's like a little

(01:03:39):
force, but we had like such agood time with everybody in at
Suna P.
Um and uh yeah, we're cooking upanother plan with the four of us
um for December.
So I'm hoping to keep uh keepyou in in the know on that, but
anything publicly for sure.

(01:04:00):
Um yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I think all that stuff'sgonna get spot.
Um yeah, the the CascadiaElite's like so different than
something we had in the in thelike lineup two years ago.
Um yeah, it's sweet.
Like it's a big chunky shoethat's you know under 300 grams.

(01:04:21):
Um yeah, it's tacky, goodrubber.
It's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:27):
Yeah, I just like the would you I have like I
said, I haven't seen one in thewild yet, but would you like is
that like our prodigio pro?
Like is that what you would youwould you argue that's like
something like that?

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:36):
Yeah, yeah, more than like obviously there's like
a different heritage to Los LasPortiva, like La Sportiva comes
from a mountain worldbackground, and so it probably
um it's just obviously adifferent shoe, and Brooks comes
from a you know road track uhpedigree, and so it's I would
assume the Cascadia Elite runsbetter than the Lost Sport, like

(01:04:59):
the Perdigio Pro.
And you know, maybe if you werescrambling or something, the
Perdigio Pro is where you go forsomething like that.
Um rubber, gotcha.
But yeah, the Cascadia Elite hasI think all this information is
public.
Maybe I'll text it.
You know, it has like uh cheese.
I don't know.
It's got great foam, good foam,yeah.

(01:05:21):
Mega grip elite like rubber.
Like I think they've only usedthat on one other shoe at all.
Um yeah, it's got like the yeah,I don't know what I can say.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:32):
It's got like I don't want to I don't want to
bait you, but um all right,let's shift gears really quick.
I do want to get into all right,so you you were uh you were
abroad for a bit.
Anything that stuck out to youon the Euro scene that like we
can apply to America racingwise, like I feel like we,
especially in short trail, and Iliterally bring this up in every
episode, especially ones withyou.
Like, I want to build the fanbase, man.

(01:05:53):
Like, I want more people to getexcited about like our races.
It's why I talk about theNortheast as well.
Like, I feel like it's so slepton that there's so many good
short trail races in theNortheast that like no one knows
about.
Um, like Cranmore, Waterville,like there's oh, so many.
Um it's a real Kismet Cliff is asuper cool race.
Yeah, yeah.
Tom's trying to get me to go outthere next year.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:12):
Um it's so gnarly.
It's like a 13-mile race thatyeah, it's it's super cool.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:19):
So, what do we do?
How do we build the fan base?
Like, how do we how do we getpeople excited, continue to be
excited about the sport and likefollowing along?
Like, what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:28):
Yeah, I mean, it seems like right now that the
biggest thing in the sport thatpeople follow are like high
profile individuals.
Like for me, if Katie Scheid orJim are you know, like the big,
big names are racing, you'relike, I will follow that race.
Um outside of that, it seems tobe the classic big races that

(01:06:52):
are really important.
Um so like a Zagama, Sears andall, Marathon de Mont Blanc,
though like dolomits, that kindof stuff is really important.
Um I don't we just don't havethat same thing in the US.
So um maybe just the building upof I guess that probably just

(01:07:13):
happens naturally, but just likethe building up of like those
like stardom around athletes.
Um I think that really helpsbring legitimacy to like certain
events.
And so like if you've got AnnaGibson racing some some race um
out in Idaho, like that's gonnabring a lot of eyes to that that

(01:07:36):
might not be there otherwise.
Um yeah, I think I think that'sthe big one.
And I guess there's some ofthese like big classic races
that we have gotten away from inthe US.
So like and it's just not to thesame level as the Europe races,
though, like a Mount Washingtonroad race, like that used to be
much bigger event than it isnow, and it's like fallen out of
favor a bit more.

(01:07:56):
Um it would have been a reallycool field this year if they did
the full, but it was like youknow, snowing up top in June or
whatever, like um so yeah, I I'mnot sure.
I'm not sure how I just thinklike the US isn't Europe, and I
think like it's not it's notgonna be for a while, and like

(01:08:18):
it's just a different scene.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:20):
Um yeah, it's interesting.
I mean, this is the I mean thisis partially on me too.
It's like how do we like I wantto build continue to help build
those stars?
Like, for instance, like peoplelike yourself, Christian Allen,
Ana, uh Lauren Gregor, likethere's quite a few, like now
Taylor Stack has kind ofarrived, you know, and it's like
how do we continue to buildthese names and get the the

(01:08:42):
public just excited about, youknow, like oh Dan's gonna go
race, I don't know, CirqueSeries Canon, right?
So how how do we follow thatrace?
I also think too, dude, like Ithink we need more uh like live
streams.
I think that's something likethe 200 mile races have like
really tapped into, and likethat's all Finn talks about is
like these these fucking like200 mile races, and it's like
I'll gladly rip Finn on some 200mile.

(01:09:05):
It's not a sport, but that's youknow, whatever.
It's um I said that.
But anyway, yeah, it's like Ibut but it's like got a cult
following.
That's the thing that drives mecrazy.
It's like we've got this supercompetitive short trail like
sport here that's way morecompetitive than a 200 mile race
is ever gonna be, but yet likeuh are people people just I

(01:09:27):
guess just don't get it?
Like I don't know, it's verystrange.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:30):
It was funny in Europe, like because have to
dance around some of this alittle bit, I guess.
Uh Western states is it's Idon't know, like it's Western
states and it's not like theonly race that's important.
And so I think sometimes in thelike I sometimes in the US I
think we forget like I think thesport is in Europe like much

(01:09:55):
more than it's in the US.
And we in the US like get inthese weird bubbles of like
people don't care about the likeabout Cocodona and the way that
they do, like if you're atCocodona, like of course, like
it's and it's probably the samething.
Like if I'm at like I thinkKismet Cliff is like a

(01:10:16):
legitimately cool race becauseof the terrain, because of the
course, like because I think avery fast time on it is right
about two hours.
Like those are all kind of coolmetrics, but and so being there,
I'm like probably biased.
I'm like, this race is awesome,like it starts in such a like

(01:10:38):
scenic spot, but you're you'rebiased because you're there,
right?
And like I think some of thathappens with the like Kokodona
stuff where you're just likesucked into this thing that I
don't know, and I hope it doesgrow and I hope it's cool and
all those things, but I don'tknow if that's the best way to

(01:10:58):
grow the sport.
At least that's not how I thinkit's best grown.
That's not necessarily thedirection like the David
Goggins, like super ultradistance stuff.
Um I think it's more accessibleand easily grown from a more
accessible place, which is like,you know, most people who are

(01:11:20):
generally fit and like hikecould go do a cirque series
race.
And that stuff's awesome.
And so the more of that that'sthat happens, the better.
Um, there's a bunch of theselittle local New England races
that happen that uh, you know,you have a ton of people come
out for that are just like localenthusiasts.
Um, but you don't hear about itbecause a lot of the coverage is

(01:11:43):
the same thing they've done forthe last 20 years, and that
isn't gonna help the sport.
Um, but the people may beexcited about the new race
that's 200 miles and they do abetter job with the media,
that's gonna be better.
Like it that might grow fasterjust because there's more
coverage of it.
So yeah, live streams, um,Golden Trail doing their little

(01:12:04):
like highlight reel pulls fromwithin races, um, especially on
descents that are gnarly.
I think they shouldn't overlypush people falling.
I think that's like a weird,like weird way to do it.
But um yeah, if you have agolden trail race and you've got
someone like just smashing adescent or like actively racing

(01:12:25):
someone else, like that'sawesome.
Like that should obviously dowell.
Um so yeah, I think likepersonally, I I know I've
probably said this on herebefore, but I think the stuff
where you're like, yeah, pull a20-second clip of two people
like mobbing down some ridge,like that's just aesthetically
cool.
And I think the fact that it isjust more it's just more

(01:12:51):
digestible for like social andall that stuff.
Um yeah, I don't know.
I think it's gonna I think it'sgonna grow, like I think it is,
and I think like the two bestfinishers at um Gold Shell final
were Americans that uh weren't Imean Taylor was the best of the

(01:13:11):
Americans and Europeans at thefinal, like more and like
outright won the race.
So I think that's that's a goodsign, I think, of stuff for us.
And uh yeah, I think that'll alljust keep growing.
Um but yeah, I'm part of like anultra Discord channel thing that
Finn is Finn started, and likeand there's like yeah, I'm

(01:13:34):
watching like up super earlywatching the like golden trail
final.
It's on HBO Max, which is likethat's super cool.
And then the people areseemingly like I think it's a
weirdly skewed group, but theywere like talking about this
like 200 mile race, and you'relike an American just won the
golden trail final, like right,right.
Like, yeah, like moral winningis that's crazy, it's so

(01:13:54):
awesome.
Uh yeah, so yeah, we gotta wegotta continue.
There's different weird bubblesin the US, I think.
Yeah, uh and I think the I don'tknow, it's partially the
athletes too.
Like, I I can get weird on thisfor myself because it sucks to
like post on Instagram.
That's true, but that's verytrue, but you you're not being

(01:14:15):
training.
Yeah, but if you want to be yourlike own best friend on that
thing to like help the sport tolike share more things is good,
I think.
Um but it's easy to say thatlike I wish Taylor posted more
of like his daily training orsomething like that, or like was
more active on there, but Idon't either.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:38):
Like nobody does, yeah, yeah.
No, dude, like I mean Anna, Ithink Anna does a good job of
telling more of being more of astoryteller, but that's it.
Like, there's not many, andshe's like actually Rachel
Tomaichek, I think does the bestjob.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:51):
Rachel does a fantastic job, Anna does a
fantastic job.
Um none of the dudes, the dudesalso and aren't doing super
well.
I love Remy's post-race recaps.
I think that's a really coolthing.
I wish more people did.
Um, I have so many ideas onthings I want to do for this
stuff that I don't do.
I have like sitting on so manyhundreds of hours of GoPro video

(01:15:13):
that I've just never doneanything with, and uh that is
one goal for the next year is touh be much more active on that
stuff.
Um so so yeah, I think part ofthat is the athletes can help
themselves.
I think early part of I thinkJim's uh following is obviously

(01:15:35):
from like the Coconino Cowboysstuff, and that is partially an
effect of those guys likeleaning into that side of things
a little bit.
Um and maybe that was becausethey're in an era when it wasn't
quite where it's at now, and youhave to like fight a little
harder to get the backing.
Um so I think that can be goodfor a sport if it's you need you

(01:16:00):
need some of the like I thinkand everyone uses this, but like
climbing is a good example of alot of this stuff because you
have so many of those people, somany of the best climbers in the
world have their own YouTubechannel.
And in the in running, we'd belike, Oh, that's not something I
want to do.
Like, I'm above that.
You're like, why?
At worst, you're getting peopleexcited about running.

(01:16:21):
Yeah, like that's the coolestthing.
And uh I think in climbing theyjust had to do it because they
it originated from a place wherethey weren't gonna make money
otherwise, and um maybe there'sjust some difference
personality-wise there too.
But with running, we're likeoutside of Killian, and
Killian's the best possible likeexample in any sport, probably,

(01:16:45):
but yeah, I think partially it'sa mix of like the media side of
things and the athletes all needto maybe work together.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:53):
Yeah, well, dude, like hear me out here.
Like, this is just a just aspitball idea.
Like you and Remy go out toBoulder, right?
For I don't know, March to dolike a training camp, right?
Dude, I would like what if wemade like a like a steep stuff,
like just like embedded with youguys for like a couple workouts
and like videotapes of them,talked about what you were
doing, and dude, I think thatwould hit so well.

(01:17:15):
People would like would lovethat and learn more about you,
learn more about Remy.
There's this, you know, you guysare funny, and then I don't
know, throw Kyle Richardson inon a workout or something like
that, and like get differentpersonalities.
Like, I don't know, you sellthat, and I think you start to
you could you could create yourown mini like series or
And I think people would lovethat.

SPEAKER_02 (01:17:34):
Yeah, and I mean like I would love to do that for
sure.
I think partially, I think a lotof the athletes do have ideas of
stuff, and at least at least Ido.
I think about this a lot.
And Remy and I talk about thiskind of stuff a lot.
It's just like, ah, what do youdo?
It feels fundamentally differentif I were to like interview
myself here for an hour talkingabout all this stuff, put it

(01:17:55):
online.
Whereas if you come forward andbeing like, hey, I'd like to
talk to you about that thisstuff, like it doesn't feel it
doesn't feel douchey to say myopinions because you're asking
me.
It's obviously different if I'mlike just spraying them uh
unprovoked, like into theinternet.
Um but maybe that's cool too.

(01:18:18):
Like maybe that would be a coolthing.
Like with Remy's post-racerecaps, I've thought it would be
kind of cool to just do straightvideo self-interview style, like
just talk about it.
I think that would be cool.
I don't do it because like it'sit's hard to do that.
I don't know.
Um yeah, so maybe I just need toget over myself.

(01:18:39):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:18:39):
I listen, man.
I we I've told you this the lasttime, like, and you told me how
much like I don't know, likeGoPro videos and stuff that you
have.
Like, get that stuff out there,man.
I think people would love that.
Especially like, dude,especially like of all like the
technical descents in thenortheast.
I'm sure you have videos of oflike running down, like people
would eat that up.
And like you can make a couplereels, and I'm not saying become

(01:18:59):
an influencer because that'sweird, but like do like I don't
know, just do enough to get youruh you know, to get people
excited about it and continue tobuild.
I know, like I said, I think wewe are in this place where we
need stars in the subultracategory or in the short trail,
and you're definitely like oneof them.
So, you know, you need tocontinue to build that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:19):
So yeah, some of it just feels like yeah,
self-important and that kind ofstuff.
And uh yeah, I mean, I do have abunch of videos I think that
would be entertaining.
I have like a video from lastwinter of like with a buddy, we
were on like a ski, we were likeskiing like up in Canada, and we
were like decided to not takethe trail back to where the road

(01:19:40):
was to the car because it waslike we hoped we could chop like
two miles, and like took thisheinous bushwhack where we had
like three river crossings, andit was like in Canada in
February or where whenever likeit was like very cold, and I
like fall into the river with myskis on, and I have like a video
of this on my GoPro settingssomewhere, like a 15-minute clip

(01:20:03):
of like bumbling around, and I'mlike, uh, it would be kind of
cool to post some of that stuff.
I just don't totally know likeyeah how.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:11):
Yeah, fair enough, fair enough.
Well, dude, I feel like we goteverything here.
Thank you so much.
I don't want to take any more ofyour time.
We're almost at like an hour 30.
So I think this is a good placeto stop.
And uh, dude, wishing you thebest.
Enjoy your off season.
Uh continue to keep thingsrolling, and obviously we'll be
in touch.
And uh hopefully I'll be bumpinginto you.
I mean, hopefully I'll see youin maybe June at Canon if you're

(01:20:32):
there.
If not, okay, I'll see you inthe northeast at some point.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:34):
So yeah, and and we're totally oh boulder,
boulder.
Yeah, that was in January is theplan, barring anything going
wrong, I guess.
But uh yeah, so it'd be cool tocome down and run with you at
some point.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:48):
Absolutely, dude.
Yeah, I gotta get you on theincline, man.
Especially uh if you haven'tbeen on that.
I would be terrified to not beatAllie McLaughlin's time.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:56):
Dude, I think everybody feels that way.
So fast.
I think that's like the mostmessed up, one of the most
messed up records in the sport.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:04):
It's so fast.
Oh, dude, she's a monster, man.
Yeah, she's another one.
But yeah, that's the incline.
I haven't been on it in like sixmonths.
It's been a while.
So I gotta get back on there oneof these days.
It's just too many other funtrails, you know.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:16):
Is there a cool way to like descend back around and
kind of like flap the inclineand then like descend back?
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:22):
There's actually like two or three different
ways.
Like you can we have likebailouts on the sides.
There's like two bailouts offthe top, uh, or really you can
go off the top, but there's atwo bailoffs, one's like uh I
don't know, a thousand feet up,one's like fifteen hundred feet
up, and then the other one'slike at whatever two thousand or
whatever feet.
So yeah, it's you can you can dosome fun stuff with it.
I mean, I think for someone likeyou, especially like when when

(01:21:43):
you guys get especially withRemy as well, like oh, I think
you guys love it just becauseit's uh you know it's it's all
steps, so it's I mean, I thinkRemy Bonet like ran the entire
thing, if I'm not mistaken.
Yeah, I'm sure he did.
Yeah, which is kind of crazy tothink about because there's some
steep ass shit in there, butyeah, I think you'd love it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:22:01):
So yeah, we'll we'll come down and that sounds
awesome.
And uh the other goal is makemaybe I'll see how fast we can
make Remy run down it orsomething.
Doesn't he hate technicaldescending or something?
Or it's become a bit of a thing,like because we've joked in back
and forth so many times aboutit.
But uh one of his goals I knowfor the winter is to like work

(01:22:21):
on that stuff.
And so like I need to work on myclimbing and like durability,
and he needs to work on thatkind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 (01:22:26):
And so it yeah, it's just kind of a joke at this
point.
Dude, I love it.
Dan, thanks so much, man.
I really appreciate your time.
And uh, dude, thank you.
Yeah, thanks.
Yeah.
What did you guys think?
Oh man, what a fun episode.
Always a big fan of Dan's.
Uh, and I know you know I givehim give him praise a lot, but
gotta give him praise.
Dude is one of the best, uh, oneof the most talented athletes to

(01:22:47):
uh enter our sport in the lastprobably decade.
So want to give him uh hisflowers and always appreciate
his thoughts on the sport and uhwhat he wants to what he wants
to do with the sport and wherehe thinks it's going.
So, guys, the best way you cansupport Dan, you can hop on
Instagram, give him a follow.
You can find him at Dan Kurtz.
Pretty simple.
That's just Dan Kurtz,C-U-R-T-S.
Give him a follow, let him knowwhat you guys thought about the

(01:23:09):
episode.
I'm sure he'd love to hear fromyou.
Um or not.
I don't know.
But either way, give him afollow.
And uh, yeah, all good stuffthere.
Guys, thanks for tuning in.
The best way you can support thepodcast, uh, if you enjoyed this
episode, amongst others, is togive us a five-star rated ring
and review on Apple, Spotify,YouTube, and wherever you
consume your podcast, all goodstuff there coming out.

(01:23:30):
We've got lots of video episodescoming out now.
I've started exploring thatspace on YouTube and Spotify.
So most of the um episodesdropping in YouTube and Spotify
are going to be video basedmoving forward.
At least all the ones I do uh onZoom are going to be, and the
ones I do in person soonerrather than later will be on as
well.
So good stuff there.
Last but not least, you cansupport our brand partner

(01:23:52):
Ultimate Direction by going onultimatedirection.com, checking
out some of the new vests andbelts they're dropping along
with their pole quiver.
Use code Steep StuffPod.
That's right.
One word Steep Stuff Pod for 25%off your cart.
That's gonna get you uh 25% offanything you're looking for on
there.
They just dropped a six-literrace vest and a 12-liter ultra
vest.
They've got a great pole quiver,they've got some solid belts.

(01:24:14):
They also have apparel as well.
Check out the Schlarb Schlarbshort schlarb shorts, uh, named
after the namesake JasonSchlarb, uh, the man, the myth,
and the legend himself.
So uh guys, have a greatweekend.
Hope you enjoy this on your longruns on Saturday or Sunday, and
uh thanks for tuning in.

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#131 - Dan Curts

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#131 - Dan Curts