October 31, 2025 • 59 mins
A sharpening workout at 10,000 feet. A sudden stab in the chest. Vision slipping. Hours later, Abby Locke learned her right lung had collapsed—and that was only the beginning. Across one summer she weathered three collapses, seven chest tubes, helicopter flights, and two surgeries, then found her way back to 50-mile weeks with a new definition of strength.
We talk through the full arc with honesty and grit: the ER chaos, hospital routines, and why “take it easy” is dangerous advice for driven athletes. Abby details the shift from vague rest to a precise, metrics-based return—heart rate caps, minutes-based progressions, and a deliberate habit of undershooting. We dig into the identity quake that comes when sport is stripped away, and how watercolor, friendship, and a gentler mindset helped her rebuild. She shares practical wisdom on training by feel, listening for pain signals, and balancing risk without living in fear.
We also explore what’s next: genetic testing, altitude questions, and a smart path toward longer trail races where intensity spikes are fewer. Abby opens up about coaching, sub-ultra roots, and why the northeast’s technical trails deserve more love. The takeaway is bigger than running: gratitude changes performance, diversified meaning sustains motivation, and a broader life makes you braver on race day.
If this story resonates, tap follow, share it with a friend who needs perspective, and leave a quick review so more runners can find conversations like this.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome back to this Deep Stuff Podcast.
I'm your host, James L'Oriello.
And today I'm so excited towelcome Abby Locke to the show.
Abby is an elite trailrunnerbased in Durango, Colorado.
And just a few months back, shewas getting ready for the race
of her life at the Broken ArrowAscent.
She was doing her last workoutand unfortunately suffered from
a collapsed lung.
(00:20):
And then just a few weeks later,suffered from another one.
And then the following month inAugust, had another one.
So over the course of June, Julyto August, Abby suffered from
three collapsed lungs, spentmultiple weeks in the hospital,
had a total of seven chesttubes, two surgeries, and
helicopter flights to get fromDurango or the Southwest
(00:41):
Colorado up to Grand Junction toget to the hospital.
She has a crazy story, and Ithink it's something everyone
could take a lot away from,especially the fact that she's
such an elite athlete at such ahigh level, had an em some
amazing finishes in 2024 and waspoised to have an incredible
season in 2025, and the sportitself was ripped away from her.
(01:03):
I don't want to go too deep intothe episode.
I want you guys to listen to it,but there's just a lot of a lot
of a really big comeback storyin this, and uh one of
inspiration.
I think you could take a lotaway from it.
And it's also a story of justnot getting too attached to a
sport or identifying and drawingan identity from just one thing.
It's it's really important to uhidentify with many things.
(01:25):
So without further ado, I reallywant to thank Ab Abby for coming
on the podcast and telling herstory.
Um hope you guys enjoy this one.
Abby Luck.
(02:41):
Abby Locke, welcome to the SteepStuff Podcast.
How's it going?
SPEAKER_01 (02:45):
It's going well, James.
Thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
Yeah, yeah.
Stoked to do this.
I think to get used to it.
Yeah, I'm stoked to be here.
I think to get us started, like,yo, your story is crazy.
It's it's a it is a wild one.
Like I've just spent the lastthree hours of my day reading
through your substack and liketrying to like piece together
everything and like get it allput together.
So I think that's that'sprobably a good place to start,
(03:09):
is maybe talk about your storyand we'll start from I guess uh
like June 13th and we'll go fromthere.
SPEAKER_01 (03:16):
Yeah, yeah, it's a pretty wild ride that I've been
on.
Um, so uh on June 13th, I wasfinishing my training block for
Broken Arrow, um, the ascent.
I that was my main race.
Um, that was kind of gonnadetermine the trajectory of my
year.
I was hoping to earn a spot onum the USA team for vertical.
(03:40):
And uh I love that race.
I love you know the vibe andjust the course and everything.
And I um I was excited to goback.
But I was running my finalsharpening workout, which was it
was a VO2 session on EngineerMountain, right north of
Durango, Colorado.
And uh it starts around like10,000 feet, and you go, you go
(04:03):
up to like 13 something.
Um, and so I had some like oneminute intervals planned, and it
wasn't gonna be a long workout,it was just gonna be like
intense.
Um, and so I I started the Istarted my warmup.
I felt fine.
I was a little tired, but youknow, nothing crazy.
And I start my intervals, and bythe time I hit maybe like my
(04:27):
maybe like fourth one or so likethat, I uh I got this crazy
sensation of like almost like amuscle cramp in my chest on the
right side.
And I was like, well, maybe Ididn't hydrate well this
morning, so I'm just gonna see.
I'm just gonna keep going.
Like, so I I did my walking restand then I started another
(04:51):
interval, and the pain got moreintense, and then it started to
work its way up into my neck andinto my face.
And I was just very, I wasunsure as to what this was.
And of course, being, you know,an athlete, a runner, you just
kind of like you you write offpain or you like push through
pain.
And I kept, you know, I wouldtake my rest.
(05:12):
And then it started as I wasgetting higher and higher up the
mountain, it started like my Iwas starting to lose my vision,
actually.
And that was what really cued meinto being like, okay, I need to
like really figure out what'sgoing on here.
So I sat on the side of thetrail and took a few deep
breaths and like really tried tokind of like put myself together
in peace, like what was actuallyhappening.
(05:34):
Um, and it got a little bitbetter as I was sitting there on
the side of the trail takingsome deep breaths.
And uh, so I got up, I tried foranother interval, and that one
was where my body would juststop me in my tracks.
And I was, you know, I was atthat point in a lot of pain, and
uh I was like unable to see, andI was like, okay, like this is
(05:55):
this is serious, like I need to,I need to turn around.
So I walked down and I I thinkit was probably maybe like a two
and a half to three mile walk.
Um, and it took me close to liketwo hours to get down, just
because every couple steps Iwould lose my vision and I like
would be really short of breathand I had to sit down and just
(06:15):
kind of like, you know, collectmyself to be able to take more
steps down the mountain.
And uh yeah, I I got back to ourvehicle at the time I was living
with my partner in a mini busconversion.
And I I even took a client call,um, a coach, and I uh I was on
the phone, a FaceTime call withmy client, and you know, I had
(06:39):
make I made the appointment, soI wanted to honor it.
Um, and I'm sitting there andI'm looking at the little screen
of myself and I'm watching mythe color drain from my face.
And I was like, I need to, Ineed to get off this call.
And come to find out, I I sitthere waiting for a little while
for my partner to return fromhis run.
(07:01):
And uh by that time, I was veryshort of breath.
The the pain was just likereally intense, radiating up
into my face.
And I was like, I need to go tothe ER.
By the time I get to the ER, Iwas like, wow, if this is a
panic attack, I'm gonna bereally embarrassed.
And I told them that.
And they were like, oh, honey,this isn't a panic attack.
(07:22):
Your lung, your right lung hascollapsed.
And I was like, floored.
I I had no idea that you couldeven do that.
You know, like I had heard ofthat in trauma instances with
like a car wreck or somethinglike that.
Um, but yeah, they they saidthat I had collapsed my right
lung and they were gonna have toput in a chest tube, which is
(07:42):
essentially they go in throughthe ribs and they try and get
the the lung to reinflate withsuction.
And so that's like an emergencyprocedure.
They they gave me like ketamine.
You're still awake and breathingfor it, which is a little crazy.
Um, but the ER doc was awesome.
He he kind of like set me up andwas like, envision a place that
(08:05):
you love to be and doingsomething that you love to do.
And you know, that was easy as arunner.
You go to your favorite trail orwhatever.
And that was, yeah, that was thefirst collapse of my lung and
the first chest tube of manythat you may have read about.
Um, so that was kind of thecatalyst for everything that
(08:27):
has, you know, basically blew upmy whole, my whole year, my
whole summer, and uh reallyshifted my perspective on life
and training and athletics andeverything.
SPEAKER_00 (08:38):
So crazy.
Yeah.
Let's let's uh all right, let melet me backtrack a little bit on
this.
Like I guess we could tell thestory, maybe tell the story,
keep it rolling for the secondand third collapse, and then
I'll ask questions like basedoff that.
SPEAKER_01 (08:54):
Okay.
So from there, I was in thehospital.
I was in the the local hospitalin Durango for a few days.
The typical procedure with acollapsed lung is they put a
chest tube in and they do, youknow, they try and get the lung
to reinflate, and then they takeyou off suction.
Um, and then they test to see ifthe like the tube is still in
(09:14):
you, but they want to make surethat the lung can like stay
inflated on its own essentiallywithout any help.
And uh, so you have to pass awater seal test, is what they
call it.
Um, and so that keeps you in thehospital for a while because
they have to play the waitinggame of will it stay up for 24
hours?
And you know, it's just kind ofrepeated.
(09:35):
I was getting multiple chestx-rays, you know, at least one a
day.
Um, and so I passed my waterseal test.
They they took the tube out, andum I was I was not given great
instruction.
I was told go easy for twoweeks.
So as an athlete, we all knowwhat easy, you know, to us is
(09:57):
not two, zone one, zone two.
Yeah, exactly.
What does that mean?
You know, like that's soarbitrary.
And um, yeah, nobody was givingme heart rate zones, no one was
giving me aerobic threshold,nothing.
I was trying to ask questions,but nobody had any answers for
me.
So I go home, I stay with myparents for a little bit because
you know, I'm trying to heal.
(10:17):
And I to me, easy is zone one,hiking on the uphill treadmill
for 90 minutes, you know, maybedoing like a really easy zwift
bike.
Come to find out, two weekslater, I am on the stationary
bike and I started having acrazy pain in my in between my
shoulders this time in my back.
(10:40):
And that, you know, it radiated.
At first, I was like, oh, it'sjust, you know, like, I don't
know, that's weird.
And then it started radiating upin my neck.
Um, and then I was like, ooh,this is not good, not good at
all.
And that one was reallyinteresting because with the
first collapse, I actually cameinto the ER with like 100% O2
(11:00):
sat.
And they were really surprisedbecause I had been at altitude.
I, you know, the lung hadcollapsed quite a bit.
It was a moderate size.
And um, with the second one, itwas such a small collapse.
Like they thought that high flowoxygen would help and they put
me on high flow.
Um, but I my O2 sat was in the80s, which is very low for me.
(11:23):
And I was my fingertips wereturning blue, like I was very
cold.
It was much more dramatic thesecond time than the first one,
honestly.
And so when I go to the ER inCortez, which is an even smaller
town than Durango, theyessentially tell me, you know,
there's not much we can do rightnow because this is your second
(11:46):
collapse.
You know, we can't just play thewaiting game with the chest tube
because it didn't work the firsttime.
Clearly, you need moreintervention.
So I was um flown in ahelicopter up to Grand Junction,
which has a larger hospital.
And that was where I receivedthe first surgery.
And that was essentially whatthey do is they scar up the
(12:08):
inside of your chest cavity andthey get the lung to reinflate
and stick to it.
Unfortunately, thathospitalization, I was in the
hospital for a little over twoweeks for that one, um, just
because of complications and alung collapse is a waiting game.
Quite like it's just like thisyou get a chest x-ray in the
(12:29):
morning, and then they test itand they chest x-ray you again.
And it's just this kind of,yeah, this cycle that you're
stuck in, um, waiting to see ifthe lung will adhere.
And so I finally was able to gohome.
And, you know, I just I was verycautious this this next time.
I was only walking, you know,maybe like 20 minutes, um, two
(12:52):
to three times a day is whatthey told me.
And I followed that.
My PA was amazing.
She really like, you know, shelistened to me um and what I was
doing in my training.
And she was like, okay, likewe're gonna, I'm gonna give you
exact parameters to follow herebecause clearly you need more
structure.
Like there's something herethat, you know, you you're not
(13:12):
gonna be able to dial it backyourself.
So here's what we're gonna tellyou to do.
And I stuck to that.
Um, and you know, they clearedme, they cleared me for
activity.
I think it was four weeks afterum or two weeks after the
initial that initial surgery.
So I was starting to, you know,not just flat walking anymore.
I was progressing.
(13:32):
I like hiked on the localmountain around here where um,
you know, it was like 90minutes, very easy, zone one.
Um, but unfortunately, uh fiveweeks post op, my lung collapsed
again.
SPEAKER_00 (13:46):
Was it the same one?
That's one thing I wasn't clear.
It was so still the right one.
SPEAKER_01 (13:50):
Wow.
It's all the right one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they were they wereabsolutely surprised.
They they were floored by it.
And um, they had to fly me againback up to Grand Junction.
And they did a more aggressiveprocedure um called a chemical
chloridesis, where it's not justlike the manual scraping of the
chest cavity.
It's actually like they theyused oxycycline um to irritate
(14:14):
the tissue further, and they dida more aggressive um scraping.
Sounds really gross, but that iswhat it is.
And uh the lung then adhered andI didn't have as many
complications, I didn't have asmuch pain that time.
Um, the hospitalization wasshorter.
I I think overall it was justlike a much better experience
(14:35):
than the first one.
I was able to go home, and thattransition to home was probably
the most difficult because I hadalready, you know, gone through
surgery the first time and itdidn't work.
So I didn't have a whole lot ofhope.
I was really, you know, in apretty tough spot.
Um, you know, like justmentally, physically, everything
(14:57):
was kind of falling apart, youknow, and I uh it it has taken a
lot of time, but as of today,I'm actually 12 weeks t 12 weeks
removed from that secondsurgery.
And I logged my first 50 milerunning week last week, and I'm
on my way to the second one thisweek.
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
That's amazing.
Do you yeah all right?
Let's let's backtrack this alittle bit.
Do you have any like any historyof anything like this?
The reason I ask is because likeI I read this as an athlete and
I run at a high level and I lovewhat I do, and um, and it's kind
of and like many peoplelistening to this probably have
an unhealthy relationship withrunning where it makes up a huge
(15:39):
part of your life.
Yeah.
Um you were kind of forced, likeit forced you to break with
break up with running for alittle bit.
It really did.
Do you have any background likewith this?
Like, or did it just kind ofcome out of the blue?
SPEAKER_01 (15:51):
This came out of the blue.
I don't even get a cold.
You know, I my parents both workin the health field, um, but I
have I've never set foot in ahospital.
Um, it was it was jarring, itwas brand new and entirely
jarring because I was on thecardiac floor in um in Grand
(16:12):
Junction, and you know, I'msurrounded by folks who have had
open heart surgery and have had,you know, just like really
intense things happen.
And I am the only one that'smobile, basically, with these
chest tubes.
You know, I'm walking laps, youknow, around the unit, and
everybody's like, you're doinggreat, you're doing great, like
what are you in for?
(16:33):
You know, like they're just solike shocked.
You're you're so fit, you're soyoung.
You know, being the only personprobably under 50 on the floor
both times was um it was quiteisolating, but honestly, it was
quite insightful because I don'tthink, you know, we take our
health for granted when we'reyoung and being able to, you
(16:57):
know, appreciate the things thatthose little things that you
miss, like just being able toopen a window, you know, or like
go out and like enjoy thesunshine, you know, not even not
even running, but those verysimple things that on the daily
basis we take for granted, youknow, let alone able-bodied
athletes.
Um, and so that was like as hardas it was, I must say that like
(17:21):
I've grown more as like aperson, as a human, in the past
like, you know, four months thanI have in years, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (17:31):
I love that.
Yeah.
Do you think I mean, like,obviously getting ready for
broken arrow and the fitnesslevel you were in, uh,
especially for the ascent, Imean, that's a lot of uphill VO2
work.
Do you think it was just likeyou were just stupid fit and
that's the reason you had 100%oxygen sat?
Like, is that probably what itwas?
SPEAKER_01 (17:51):
I believe so.
I mean, like, I looked at my myhemoglobin hematocrit numbers.
Um, they were they were reallyhigh and I was doing altitude
training, I was sleeping high.
You know, I think I was I waslucky um with that first
collapse and how dramatic itwas.
Um, because eventually, youknow, like with a lung collapse,
the reason that it can be fatalis it can crush your heart.
(18:14):
So they, you know, for a lot ofpeople, it's kind of you're
racing the clock.
For me, I didn't get care forlike five or six hours.
And um, you know, like to haveO2 sat that high, I'm very
fortunate.
You know, that's not that's notnormal.
Um, and so I I definitelyattribute my fitness to kind of
(18:36):
getting me down that mountainsafely and uh being able to
like, you know, hang out for theamount of time that I was
waiting for my partner at thetime.
So yeah, I I feel veryfortunate.
SPEAKER_00 (18:49):
I can't believe you took a client call.
That's crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (18:52):
Like that's I know.
SPEAKER_00 (18:54):
Like at what point in time did you like start
panicking like midway throughthat?
You're like, man, like maybe Ishouldn't be on this.
SPEAKER_01 (19:00):
Maybe I should yeah, maybe I should go to the
hospital.
I like I said, when I was seeingmyself turn white in the little
FaceTime box, I was like, allright, you know, maybe I should
call it.
And I texted her later when whenuh the procedure was done and I
was in my hospital room.
I was like, you're never gonnabelieve this.
I was talking to you with acollapsed lung.
(19:22):
So uh yeah, if that saysanything about my my personality
and my love for coaching, that'syeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:29):
Let's let's let's pivot a little bit.
I want to get into like some ofthe deeper aspects of it if
you're if you're open to talkingabout this.
Absolutely.
Just because it's like and Ikind of alluded to this in an
earlier question.
Like, I think a lot of usathletes, people listening to
this, like I have like aborderline unhealthy
relationship with the sport justbecause you love this so much
and you play, especially forsomeone like you.
(19:51):
Like, you know, you had anamazing season in 2024, you were
poised to have an amazing seasonin 2025 and compete for a spot
on that world's team.
Like, I I'm not saying you'llnever be there again because
it's definitely like in thecards for sure, but like how has
it changed your relationshipwith running?
Like, how do you view that now?
SPEAKER_01 (20:10):
It's changed it massively.
I was so single-minded in myfocus.
Um, I was living, eating,breathing, running.
Um, you know, my my other rolesas like I'm a coach.
I also work for a runningreviews website.
Those things are like still verypresent in my life.
But I'm also looking towardsother ways that I could connect
(20:33):
and like share, you know,somehow like my life experiences
and like help others.
And so I'm looking at otheravenues for that.
And I think that this whole dealhas like broadened my horizons
immensely and really put intoperspective that running is it's
fleeting, you know, it isn'tgonna be there forever.
(20:56):
And we have to be comfortablesitting with ourselves
sometimes.
And I think that as athletes, wecan often get so caught up in
staying, you know, ever for likemoving forward with progress all
the time.
And, you know, just like thatthat movement, that constant
movement.
(21:16):
Um, and I think, you know,literally having to sit with
myself, you know, not being ableto go even on a walk, really.
Like I couldn't walk for morethan 15 to 20 minutes at a time.
So, you know, what am I gonna dowith all this, you know, 20
hours of spare time?
And I I turned to new hobbies,you know, creative pursuits that
(21:36):
I haven't touched in a very longtime.
Um, it kind of like also makesyou lean on your friendships a
little more because sometimeswith running, it can be so it's
kind of a it's a selfishendeavor when we really think
about it.
And so when you no longer havethat, it's like, okay, I don't
want to focus on myself all thetime.
How can I, how can I show up forother people?
(21:58):
And how can I, you know, be abetter friend, be a better
daughter, be a better, likegranddaughter, even.
Um so I think really it was anopportunity to kind of look
deeper and create a moresustainable relationship with
the sport and like just with myown humanity.
SPEAKER_00 (22:18):
Yeah.
It's weird, right?
Like when you running's takenaway from you, you start to
realize like how much of it yourlife it takes up, which is it
does a little crazy.
You mentioned, you know, being abetter friend, being a better
daughter, like you know, youdon't realize like the
sacrifices you make to be anelite athlete.
Like it you I mean, I mean,people spend what 12 to 25 hours
a week playing in the mountains,plus all the other little things
(22:41):
that go into it.
Like it's it's a job.
SPEAKER_01 (22:43):
It is, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
Yeah, it's it's it's a weird, I don't know, it's a
weird thing.
Like the fact that like we'reall called to do this.
I don't I don't get it.
SPEAKER_01 (22:50):
Yeah, it's a beautiful thing, but I think
it's also we have to sometimestake a step back and remember,
you know, nobody's gonnaremember your Stravagraph or
your Strava crowns, you know, atthe end of the day.
Like, you know, it's morbid, butwhen you think about it on your
deathbed, like what remains isour connections with other
(23:11):
people and the impacts thatwe've had in each other's lives.
Um, and so that's kind of youknow, my realization with
things.
And I I love running and Ialways will be a runner,
whatever capacity that lookslike.
I'm not attached to the outcome,but I think that you know, when
it comes down to it, I'm notjust a runner and I'm so much
(23:33):
more.
And we all are, we're all somuch more.
SPEAKER_00 (23:35):
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah, and I think that well, Idon't know, not that just that
makes you a better person, but Ithink that makes you a better
runner in the long term, justbecause you're not married to a
result anymore or married tothis aspect, it it kind of
changes things.
What what new hobbies did youpick up?
Like I you're obviously you'reyou're an amazing writer, like
your Substack, and I'll linkthat in the show notes so people
uh can get to it and uh read it.
(23:57):
But also you also review um forWeViews as well.
What kind of like other hobbieslike have you picked up or jobs
and things that you've beendoing?
SPEAKER_01 (24:06):
Um, so I really got into watercolor, which is fun,
it's a fun medium, especiallyfor me and and anybody else
who's type A, because watercoloris finicky.
There is no, you have somesemblance of control, but a lot
of it is up to like, you know,the water balance that you have
on the page.
(24:26):
And so there is an element oflike having to let go and just
like accept what comes.
And so that was the reason Ipicked that.
You know, I was like, what issomething like, and I wouldn't
consider myself a very likeartistic person.
Um, you know, and I just likeone day woke up with the idea,
like, I need a creative pursuitthat I can sit there and learn,
(24:47):
like try to like attempt masterythat I could do when I'm 80
years old.
And um that was what called me.
So I've been I've been learninghow to how to watercolor, and
that's been that's been super,super fun.
SPEAKER_00 (25:01):
I love it.
Now you had mentioned your momuh was doing some knitting as
well.
I picked that up in one of yoursubsects.
Did you pick up any knitting aswell?
SPEAKER_01 (25:10):
I uh you know, I haven't picked up knitting.
Um, it's a little too likerepetitive.
I wanted something that I reallyhad to think about and like kind
of I enjoy drawing too, so thatthe watercolor complemented that
nicely.
The the knitting is a little toorepetitive, like I said.
I'm like, I don't think I couldget into that, but I respect it.
(25:30):
I think it's a great, it's socool the blankets and stuff she
makes.
I'm like, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
That's cool.
That's cool.
You had mentioned control.
This is such an interestingaspect because I feel like I I
guess it's a type A thing.
I'm kind of a lunatic, like alunatic about this with certain
aspects.
Like you want to be in control.
Like you want to, if you're witha group of people, you want to
drive.
There's like different things,like with type A people like
wanting to be in control ofstuff.
This is one of those weird timesin your life where like you
(25:57):
don't really have a lot ofcontrol mentally.
How was that uh I mean,obviously the watercolor helps
and stuff like that, butultimately like overcoming that
aspect and realizing like it'salmost like this fear and
anxiety, like like will thiscome back?
Will this happen again?
Like, how how have you been ableto kind of like work through
that?
SPEAKER_01 (26:16):
Yeah, that's a that's a great question because
it's not it's not a finishedprocess, right?
It's very much in the works, andthat's something that I've had
to really, yeah, sit with.
And I think it sounds a littlecheesy, but I think that you
know, I've kind of leaned into alittle bit more of my
spirituality through this.
Um, because when you accept yourpowerlessness and you just kind
(26:40):
of like you realize thatultimately we don't have any
control, um, when you kind oflean into that a little more,
you invite space for somethingbigger than yourself.
And that is, you know, whateverGod of your understanding, you
know, that that might look like.
Um, for me, that's kind of beensomething that I've found.
(27:03):
And um I have a brand newappreciation for that um that I
didn't have before, if I'mhonest.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:12):
Wow.
Yeah, and I it's it's yeah, it'ssuch a crazy, I don't know, it's
a crazy thing to kind of justlet go and just like back off
and like, man, you know.
What does running?
I guess like what obviouslyrunning looks a little different
now.
You just hit you're working onyour second 50 mile week.
How careful are you?
And like how like how do youlike grapple with like do you do
(27:36):
workouts?
I don't know.
I'm sorry, I'm all over theplace with that.
SPEAKER_01 (27:38):
No, yeah, that's a great question because I think
it was something that I reallyhad to think about as well.
I'm like, okay, what risks am Iwilling to take?
And to me, I was just like,okay, the only things that I can
control is just like intensityprogression and volume
progression.
Like I'm gonna treat it like Iwould for a client, you know.
Um, I'm just gonna monitor themetrics that I can and go off of
(28:03):
those and kind of likeundershoot.
I think that's been my goal.
Like, okay, I know I could dothis, but I'm gonna do like 10%
to 20% less than what I know Icould do.
And not, you know, as hard as itis, not pushing myself because I
think I was always very like,okay, I if I just like push for
the next level, the next levelthat it was like, you know, that
(28:24):
was very fulfilling, but alsothat doesn't help with healing.
So kind of learning to learningto undershoot and to just be
like, okay, did I feel betterafter that run or did I feel
worse?
Am I having more chronic pain,more inflammation?
And using really tuning into thebody, um, that's been really
helpful, which is like theopposite of what we do as
(28:46):
athletes sometimes.
We're like, oh, like, you know,we got to ignore that pain
because we gotta keep training.
Um, but for me, I've kind ofjust like gone a little softer
with things and really honoredwhat the body is asking for.
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
Do you like consult with doctors?
Like, I'm sure you have a teamnow, a group of people that I'm
sure you're you're doing a lotof uh going for checkups and
getting checked out and stuff.
But like, do you tell them like,oh, this is this is what I'm
gonna be doing?
Like, and this is what I plan toget back to?
And what are those conversationskind of look like?
Are they cool with that?
SPEAKER_01 (29:18):
So it was interesting.
Um they actually, my surgeon,the at my like most recent
surgeon for that most recentappointment when they cleared
me, he's like, Oh, you can justlike resume training as normal.
And the PA was standing behind,like, she was just like, No, no,
no, no, no.
You know, and so because sheknew my case a little bit
(29:39):
better.
Like, he's a great surgeon, buthe, you know, wasn't familiar
with me as a human.
He knew I was a runner, but youknow, that that's so like you
know, that can mean a lot ofthings.
But she was very much more tunedin and like, okay, you know,
we're gonna, I want you to justbe really careful with your
progression, but you know,ultimately, this the surgery
should, you know, allow you.
(30:00):
You to run at high altitude, um,to do all the things that you've
done before.
You just can't go scuba divingand you can't fly in an
unpressurized aircraft.
Those are the two things thatyou can't do.
And I'm like, well, I don'tswim, so scuba diving, that
won't be a problem.
Yeah.
So really, yeah, they've clearedme to do anything that I want to
(30:23):
do and that the body allows for.
So that's ultimately like myhope is to just, you know,
listen to the body and and youknow, take whatever it can give
me, really.
SPEAKER_00 (30:36):
You would you would alluded to in one of your
write-ups um about likepotential long-term stuff, like
not being totally sure like whatcaused this and and if there
could be something underlying orwhatnot.
Um, like, are you going througha battery of tests to try to
figure that out?
Like, how does that, what doesthat look like going forward?
SPEAKER_01 (30:55):
Yeah, yeah.
That's definitely been kind ofthe the sort of Damocles hanging
over my head, right?
I think that um so there were CTimages of my other lung that
indicate there is a like athinning, um, which is
essentially what they think uhcollapsed the first lung.
And so there's possibility thatit is on the left side as well.
(31:18):
And so, you know, they they wantme to go for genetic testing,
um, gonna get established with apulmonologist, all these things
to kind of get the get that ballrolling to kind of understand
what may have caused this.
Um, it is an interestingphenomena that I, the PA who
worked with me, she worked at anAir Force base, I believe.
(31:39):
Um, and she said it was verycommon for folks going through
boot camp, uh, like a highlystressful period, um, low little
sleep, not great recovery, thatyou know, a lot of them would
actually collapse their lungs.
And um, she had seen a lot ofthat.
And so it's kind of interesting.
It usually happens to tall,skinny men, but it can happen to
(32:03):
women too.
So um there is a there's achance that it's not entirely
genetic and it is just somethingthat I was born with, and you
know, um, it will be fixed withwith surgery, but yeah, there's
there's kind of some unknownthere.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:19):
Wow, that's great.
It's so nuts.
Like, what an interesting thing.
Do you um so being in southwestColorado, like Durango, Cortez,
like I obviously you had to getairlifted and you had to go up
to Grand Junction.
What is it like as far as likeliving there?
It's gotta be tougher to getlike good medical like
treatment, right?
Like I'm surprised they didn'tsend you to like Denver or like
(32:41):
Albuquerque or something or SaltLake or something like that.
SPEAKER_01 (32:44):
Yeah, they um I'm actually gonna go to Denver for
my next, like for my specialistsand stuff, um, because they are
a bigger institution.
But um the care in GrandJunction was incredible.
So I must say, like, even thoughthey're not the biggest
hospital, they were absolutely,you know, incredible people.
(33:06):
So yeah, it's living in anisolated area makes it a little
more, I don't know,uncomfortable.
But at the same time, I knowthat you know, I I got great
care where I went.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
The other question I have with oxygen sat is um and
like lungs and stuff like that.
Would it benefit you to like lowlive at a lower altitude?
Like does that ever come upwell?
SPEAKER_01 (33:29):
Oh, it's definitely come up.
I mean, like, you know, forhealing purposes, um that was
kind of a discussion, like yeah,my my roommate actually brought
it up.
And I it's funny because I'mjust I'm from the area and I've
never had an issue.
Um I think to me, the pairing ofthe high altitude and that
(33:51):
really intense workout, that'salmost it makes me feel a little
bit better because I don't needto touch those two things at
once.
Um, that's definitely somethingthat I can opt out of and still
perform at a decent level.
So, you know, that I think likeif it is the case that I've had
this my whole life and I'vegotten this far without it
(34:14):
happening, I mean, you know,like again, we can only control
so much.
And I think that the I don'twant to live in fear, but I want
to be smart.
So I'm kind of walking that thatline.
SPEAKER_00 (34:27):
The living in fear aspect is the hardest part.
Like it's almost like you gottabe an incredibly like strong
human to not have anxiety andworry about that.
Like, dude, I had like a uh Ihad a small injury like in April
slash like through June.
And I've been I always getstressed out.
I'm like, oh my god, is it gonnacome back and stuff like that?
And that's such like littlethings compared to like what
(34:48):
you're going through.
So I can't imagine what it'slike thinking about like, oh my
gosh, like could this happenagain?
And how do I work on that?
Um, I do want to pivot a littlebit and get back to the surgery
stuff.
I just find this so interesting,like as a nerd.
Dude, it must have like freakedyou out having to get,
especially in you you were verydescriptive in one of your
write-ups.
I think it was the first onewhen you had your first
(35:09):
collapsed lung where they gaveyou ketamine, but it was like a
in a local anesthetic and thenthey cut you open.
Like they don't put you out, putyou out for something like that.
SPEAKER_01 (35:17):
No, no, no.
So it was it was actually quitepowerful because ketamine is,
you know, they use it in therapyand stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00 (35:28):
Hell of a drug.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:29):
It is, it is.
And I must say that the firsttime that they used it, I think
it was a combination of like theadrenaline from being told that
I was, you know, I had acollapsed lung, and the um
surgeon actually walking methrough that process of like go
to your happy place type thing.
I actually had a really powerfulexperience where I kind of like
had a bit of an ego death whereI just had this like wave of
(35:52):
acceptance wash over me.
And I was, I felt, I don't know,like I just kind of felt like
whatever is meant to be will be,you know.
And that was really there was itwas somewhat cathartic because
yeah, they are.
They're like fighting yourintercostals to get this tube
in.
It's really messed up.
Like it's it's not fun, like byany means.
(36:14):
But I must say that like that umthat experience wasn't all that
traumatic because yeah, theythey actually did a good job
with like getting me to calmdown and like in the right
headspace.
So and then I've had so intotal, um, when I count like
everything, I've had seven chesttubes, um, and then like those
(36:37):
two those two surgeries and twoflights for life.
Like it's just like thischecklist of craziness.
SPEAKER_00 (36:44):
But seven chest tubes.
That's crazy.
So you're you're pro by now.
SPEAKER_01 (36:48):
That's all like I I tell I joke.
I joke.
I have like friends who are innursing school.
I'm like, so when they do yourunit on you know, chest tubes
and all that stuff, like justbring me in.
I can be, you know, I can be aconsultant for placement and
stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00 (37:03):
I was kind of amazed at how much you knew about like
different like pharmaceuticalsand stuff.
You're like, oh, just just takethis for nausea or something
like that.
And it was like a Zofran, yeah,for tip for ultra runners.
I was like, that's interesting.
Never heard of that in my life.
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (37:16):
Well, yeah, like so.
I used to work as a compoundingtech actually in a pharmacy.
So I'm a little more familiarwith drugs, and my parents are
both in the medical field.
But yeah, like the Zofran savedmy life when I was in the
hospital.
So yeah, I highly recommend ifyour doctor's willing to write
for it, it's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (37:36):
Crazy, crazy.
All right, let's pivot a littlebit.
I want to talk more about you asthe person um and get into like
you as the coach, you as thewriter, you as, you know, where
like where you want running togo now that you're on this kind
of a different path.
Um, let's talk about you and thecoaching aspect.
Like, how do you how much do youlove coaching?
Like how long you've been doingit for, and like like how is
(37:59):
like how is that going for you?
SPEAKER_01 (38:01):
So uh, you know, I really do love it.
I kind of I keep a pretty smallroster of folks because I do so
many other things.
Um, but the folks that I do haveon, I absolutely love
interacting with them.
Um and just like, you know, kindof I've been with a lot of these
folks for quite a while.
And uh it's it's just cool towatch them grow as athletes and
(38:22):
kind of like be a hugesupporting role in that and um
kind of like exploring their ownpotential, whatever that looks
like.
I have some folks that don'teven race, they just want to
like have big adventures and youknow, I'm I'm there for that.
And uh so I've been doing this,I've been having clients
probably since late, well, Iguess late 2020, early 2021.
(38:44):
Um, I did kind of start in theweight loss space and it wasn't
for me.
And I did, I was like, okay,like I how can I direct this
more towards athletes?
And so now I I work um withfolks on their endurance
nutrition plans.
Um, and then I also do just likeprogramming for you know,
skiing, running, whatever kindof endurance pursuit.
SPEAKER_00 (39:05):
So interesting.
How long have you been runningfor?
Like, did you run all the wayback since like high school?
SPEAKER_01 (39:10):
Yeah, I did.
I ran in middle school, but Ididn't end up going to college
for running because I I wantedjust like a normal college
experience.
Um, and I think that actuallysaved like my relationship with
running a little bit.
I think I would have burnedmyself to a crisp had I run in
college.
And so um, yeah, I'm actuallyquite even though I have
regrets, I'm like, oh, would Ibe faster?
(39:31):
Would I be more, you know, like,but I think that ultimately it
made me a happier runner.
So maybe I'm faster for that.
SPEAKER_00 (39:39):
Uh probably.
When did you like discover thetrail scene?
Like, when did that become athing for you?
SPEAKER_01 (39:43):
I think, you know, it's funny.
I was kind of thinking on thisthe other day, and I would say
that um Courtney DeWalter goingon uh Joe Rogan, uh and it's so
like cliche, right?
But I remember that interviewand I was just floored.
Like I knew people trail run,like that was in my awareness,
but I just remember that being areally like an indelible mark on
(40:05):
my memory.
And then I ran my very firsttrail race in 2019 at the Moab
Trail Half, um, and just lovedit.
Like I was like, oh my God, likethis is so much more fun than
like road running, you know?
So um, yeah, that was kind oflike my where I dipped my toes
in.
And then I didn't, I didn't racea bunch.
Like I was just kind of like, Ijust love training so much, and
(40:27):
I just love being out in themountains.
And then like I think last yearwas where I really got a little
more serious and was like, okay,like let me dip my toes in like
more competitive fields.
And so I, you know, went toBroken Arrow and got in the top
10 for both the 23k and the andthe VK.
And then I did like MammothTrail Fest, and you know, I was
injured for like the the bigrace, the golden trail race, but
(40:49):
I did run the ascent andabsolutely loved it.
So I was just like, I don'tknow, it racing has definitely
come more on my radar over theyears.
SPEAKER_00 (40:58):
What was that like for you?
You had pretty much immediatesuccess.
Like you were like prettytalented in the sport, like
almost right away.
Like for 2024, I every year isthe most like I we always say
like the most competitive brokenarrow, right?
Like 2024 is stupid competitive.
You get in the top 10 of both ofthose races at BA.
What was that like?
(41:18):
Like, were you like at thatpoint starting to think about
okay, how do I get partnerships,go through the sponsorship kind
of realm?
Like, like, like what were youthinking about at that point?
SPEAKER_01 (41:28):
I think I was just floored because I I had had so
much self-doubt for so longbecause I didn't run in college,
I didn't compete.
I was like, who am I to stand onthe starting line with these
incredible women?
You know, like who do I think Iam that I'm gonna like run with
Tabor Hemming, you know, RachelTamashik and like all these
girls.
Um and so that was really a coolexperience to like run with
(41:52):
them, compete with them,interact with them.
They're lovely humans and thethe vibe, like the community of
the trail running, like trailrunning in general, and then
like broken arrow itself wasjust yeah, it just really
reinforced some self-beliefthere that I didn't have.
And um, so that was that wasquite powerful, you know.
I I definitely I I leanedfurther in after that.
SPEAKER_00 (42:16):
Crazy.
And then for you, so you wereinjured for the Mammoth
Trailfest and still got like Iwas top 20 result like in a
golden trail year.
SPEAKER_01 (42:23):
Talk about it.
Yeah, I uh I did some dumbthings in training where I just
I just flew a little close tothe sun and I uh had an IT band
injury that was just like it washammering me.
Like it was just not not movingalong.
And so I took, I want to say Itook like maybe a week or so
(42:43):
off, or maybe it was only likefour or five days off before the
dragons back ascent.
And I didn't run a step, Ididn't, I hardly walked because
it was like it was debilitatingpain.
Um, and I was like, well, youknow what?
We're gonna try it.
It's all uphill, it shouldn'thurt that much.
And uh, so I was really stale,but it was so much fun to just
(43:04):
like I was redliningimmediately, you know.
And uh yeah, like I get up tothe up to the top and um like
getting chased through the thefinish line with the cowbell and
everything, the energy was justlike it was so much fun.
But then I I made the decisionto run the is it the the longer
distance, is it it's not 23k,it's a little longer.
SPEAKER_00 (43:25):
I think it's a 26k?
26k.
SPEAKER_01 (43:28):
Yeah, 26k.
And that was the golden trailrace.
I'm like, you know, I'm here, Iknow I'm injured, and it's
probably gonna set me back alittle bit, but I'll just take
some time off and it'll be okay.
And so I I did run it, and itwas not a fun time.
I definitely just like had tojog a lot of the downhills um
because the downhill was whatwas like really agonizing.
(43:49):
So it wasn't, it definitelywasn't how I would have liked to
debut in Golden Trail, but itwas a wonderful experience to
just like tow the line and andrun that beautiful course.
And yeah, don't regret it.
SPEAKER_00 (44:02):
I read something about you, I think it might have
been on WeViews.
It was like one of your likebucket list races, and I saw on
there the Pikes Peak Ascent.
Is that still is that like ifyou if you make this comeback,
is that gonna be on the list fornext year?
SPEAKER_01 (44:15):
It you know, it was on the list for this year.
I had I had my elite entry, um,and that was gonna be my you
know.
SPEAKER_00 (44:22):
So I'm on the board of breaks.
I remember this.
Okay, okay.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:26):
Yeah.
So I I the idea was if I didn'tmake the team, I was gonna A
race pikes.
And um, so and yeah, like thatrace, just the fact that you can
go a half marathon all uphill,that's like right up my alley,
because I don't love goingdownhill all that much.
So um I would love to be able todo it in the future.
I think the altitude at themoment kind of freaks me out,
(44:49):
just with everything that I dohave going on.
Um, but you know, if I was in aplace where I did feel a little
more secure in in the body andand got my test results and got
an idea of what I'm up against,yeah, I would absolutely train
for that.
SPEAKER_00 (45:03):
It's interesting.
Like you, I I could tell just bytalking to you, uh, and I'm sure
the audience picks up on this,just like how much you love like
the you know, the sport andrunning and just the form of it.
Will you will you ever allowyourself to like get in that
mindset again of like fallingback in love with I guess with
the competition aspect of it?
Like let's say in a perfectworld things progress and you
(45:24):
start to feel good again in theway that you did before.
Um, or will you not allow whereyou keep keep yourself a
multidimensional person and andkeep running in a different
bucket?
Like, how will you kind of shapethat up?
SPEAKER_01 (45:36):
Yeah, I've thought on that a lot because it is
starting to feel more realistic.
Um, I do think, you know, I wantto I want to dip my toes into
the longer stuff because youdon't need to do, I mean, you
should do VO2 work, but youdon't need to do as much VO2
work.
So that's kind of where I seethat appeal.
Um, but I do, you know, I Ialways admire um Rachel Tomajik,
(45:58):
she talked a little bit aboutthis on the pod.
And like I I admire her abilityto kind of separate the identity
and really have a lot of balancethere.
And that's something that I wantbecause I want longevity in the
sport.
Um and I think that the way thatI was approaching things was
burning the candle bulletins.
(46:19):
And uh yeah, I think ultimatelyI I want to like fall in love
with the sport, but maybe it's adifferent type of love.
It's less, less obsessive and alittle more, a little more
healthy.
SPEAKER_00 (46:31):
Yeah, balance.
I think with anything in life isis balance.
Um shift gears a little more.
I uh I was I think I was lurkingyour, I can't remember if it was
Strava or maybe it wasInstagram.
You spent some time out in thenortheast doing some northeast
trails this past year.
Yo, talk about that.
The northeast is dope.
I think it slept.
SPEAKER_01 (46:48):
Oh my gosh, so fun.
SPEAKER_00 (46:49):
So much fun.
SPEAKER_01 (46:50):
The cat skills are so fun.
They I at first I've been outthere a couple times.
Um, my previous partner was fromuh the northeast, and he has
the, I believe he has the FKTfor the cat skill, um, the
devil's path.
Yeah.
So we went out there severaltimes, and it took me, I would
say it took me like a handful ofruns to be able to kind of wrap
(47:13):
my head, my ankles, everythingaround it, and be like, okay,
I'm not gonna die.
I just need to like really payattention.
It's a four-limb, like you'reyou're climbing, you're you're
using all four limbs, and you'reso engaged all the time um that
you don't need music.
You don't, you're you're in it,and you know, you can spend five
(47:33):
hours out there banking likeinsane vert and not pay for it
because it's at sea level.
Yep.
So it's so much fun.
I I think that it like Northeastis just like highly ununderrated
in terms of trail and and thesub-ultra scene.
I think they have a really cool,like the um run the whites when
they were doing the segment umcontests essentially.
(47:56):
I think that's a wonderful idea.
I wish more folks in the Westwould kind of take, you know, do
stuff like that.
Because I think everything's socentered around ultra um that
it'd be fun to see more, yeah,competitive sub-ultra type
stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (48:10):
Oh, that'd break.
That's like a whole differentpodcast we could do.
What's your what's your take onthat?
I do, I this drives me crazy.
I feel like in in the US, we areso ultra like ultra-centric.
I was on a group run last night,actually, and I just heard like
a newcomer to the sport wastalking about, oh, you know, my
longest race has only been a15K, and I I just, you know, I I
(48:30):
can only do this.
And I'm like, that's great.
15K is awesome.
Like you could run that reallyhard and get the most out of
yourself.
Like, we have this culture inAmerica where everything's like
50k to 100 miles, and I don'tunderstand that.
Um, obviously, you I mean, forthe most of your career, it
seems like you've done prettymuch everything under a 50k.
Like, what got you so excitedabout like the the short trail
(48:52):
scene?
SPEAKER_01 (48:54):
I mean, for myself, I found a little more success
with it, especially because it'slike you know, shorter, steeper,
uphill stuff that is like mybread and butter typically.
Um, the I I did run 150k, and itwas funny because it was back
before we understood springenergy.
And I remember I I took in, Ithink I was doing like maybe if
(49:18):
I was lucky, like 10 to 15 gramsof carbs an hour at like, you
know, in Silverton, the 50k loopthere.
And I just I blew up so hard.
I took a wrong, I took multiplewrong turns.
I it was just my first, like, itwas my first ultra, and I just
like totally dropped the ball onit.
So that kind of like I was like,okay, like I don't know, that
(49:42):
was really painful.
I'm gonna try and like goshorter and see how see how it
goes from there.
And um, yeah, I just found moreI found more success and I
really enjoyed the shorter,spicier stuff um after that like
50k experience.
SPEAKER_00 (49:57):
Essentially I wouldn't say I had the same
exact situation, but yeah, I rana 50k.
It was like my first race, had aterrible, terrible day, and
yeah, really like the shortstuff so much better.
I don't know why.
But I guess it's you kind oflike gravity to the stuff you
find success at.
SPEAKER_01 (50:13):
So I guess you do, you do, yeah.
But there's definitely a part ofme after going through all this,
um, you know, that is verycurious about the mental aspect
of ultras.
Um, I do think that is somethingthat I haven't fully explored
and that I I want to at thispoint, um, because I remember
(50:34):
sitting in the hospital withmultiple surgical chest tubes
and not not sleeping for likefour or five days.
Um and just thinking to myself,you know what?
I think an ultra sounds prettyeasy after all of this.
So yeah, I might end up doingthat in the long term.
SPEAKER_00 (50:52):
Is there any like races that call to you?
Like uh Black Canyon orsomething more mountainous?
Like what like what stands out?
SPEAKER_01 (50:58):
Yeah.
I think right now I would I Iwould love to like do something
like uh Black Canyon, where it'slike a lower, lower altitude,
that kind of thing.
But I'm also you know, I'm opento there's this race in um it's
in Silverton called the JohnCappus.
I don't know if you've everheard of it.
SPEAKER_00 (51:15):
Oh yeah, I've been been wanting to do this race for
years and it just never fed inon my uh on my calendar.
SPEAKER_01 (51:20):
Right.
And so it's kind of you know,it's one of those races that you
can go out there and just youknow, kind of you're you're
hiking a lot, you're routefinding a lot.
And so, you know, you never knowhow the day is gonna turn out,
but there's plenty of plenty ofopportunities to bail.
So I could, you know, go outthere with some girlfriends and
just have a big adventure day.
So that also appeals to me.
(51:41):
So, you know, I I think it'sjust gonna be, you know, like
what the what the body allowsfor and um mentally what I can,
you know, maintain some balance,um, but also pursue a goal.
SPEAKER_00 (51:54):
So I love it.
Uh and on the topic of JohnCappy is like, yo, that is, I
mean, I I don't want to blow itup too much because I feel like
it should be uh like a communitycommunity.
SPEAKER_01 (52:03):
It's a low-key.
SPEAKER_00 (52:04):
Yeah, yeah.
I don't um we'll talk about itoffline, but like it's don't do
it, people.
Don't, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (52:10):
Yeah, it's horrible.
SPEAKER_00 (52:12):
Um yeah, I lost my trade of thought.
What was I?
So we talked about ultras.
We talked about, oh, yo, do youjust have like a whole new like
understanding and like levelwhen it comes to pain?
Like and as well as like thatmental unlock where you feel
like you can do anything nowafter kind of going through all
that stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (52:28):
It's funny.
I was talking to a friend on arun the other day and saying,
Wow, my my fear of runningdownhill hard, it's like not
there anymore.
I, you know, because I'm likethe bodily harm that can come
from like eating it on adownhill pales in comparison to
what I've been through.
So there is some like weirdthing like mentally that I've
(52:51):
unlocked there.
And there is like a less, Iwould say I was a baseline,
pretty anxious person before allthis happened, and it's almost
taken me down a notch and andbeen this um yeah, grow like
experience that is really putthings in context.
Like, is this really all thatbad?
Or, you know, are we like hypingthings up in our brain?
SPEAKER_00 (53:11):
Well, that's the thing.
It's like, dude, we worry aboutwork and all this garbage, and
then when you're actually facedwith something with your own
mortality or you know, with you,like I it really just kind of
puts things, I guess, under orin in the right peripheral, you
know, in the right direction,like where you can nothing
really matters when you're whenyour health is on the line, you
(53:33):
know?
Absolutely.
Nothing really matters, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:35):
And you know, I must say that when I did spend,
because over the summer, I spentabout a month cumulatively
hospitalized.
And so when you're in thatenvironment and you see folks
that are entirely dependent on acaregiver, they can't speak,
can't walk, you know, they maybedon't have family in the rooms
with them.
(53:56):
Um, it's it's hard to see, andyou really you put things in
context and you're like, wow, Ifeel really fortunate.
Like even though I'm goingthrough this really dark thing,
you know, there are so manypeople that would, you know,
they would give anything to justwalk around outside, let alone,
you know, explore the mountainslike on foot and run, you know.
(54:19):
So that that definitely kind ofput things in perspective for
me.
SPEAKER_00 (54:23):
I'm sure.
I mean, you know, yeah, you whenyou're in a hospital, you see
people coming in and peopleleaving, you know.
It's it's a it's a it's a reallydifficult, I don't know, it's
it's just a it's a lot ofhumanity that you don't normally
see in everyday life.
So yeah, it's not an easy thingto uh kind of grapple with.
And yeah, we are very lucky,especially, you know, most of
the people listening to this,you know, it's a it's a running
(54:45):
podcast, so most of them arerunners, you know.
And I think a lot of people putmaybe just so much undue
pressure on themselves toperform or this and that.
But like you said in thebeginning of the episode, like
no one's gonna remember you ifyou I don't know, if you win a
Cirque series race or a GoldenTrail race, like it's it's over
and nobody really cares in a fewyears, you know.
Yeah.
Less than that.
(55:05):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (55:06):
Yeah.
I mean by the next next race,you know?
It's yeah, that that reallydoesn't stay around.
unknown (55:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (55:15):
I think it's a good stopping point.
I feel like we do you feel likewe got everything.
Is there anything else you wantto get into?
SPEAKER_01 (55:20):
I don't think so.
I really appreciate you havingme on.
SPEAKER_00 (55:23):
Yeah, I appreciate it.
Thank you.
I I really appreciate you comingon and telling your story.
It was a great conversation, anduh yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (55:29):
Of course.
SPEAKER_00 (55:31):
What'd you guys think?
Oh man, well, what a powerfulepisode.
Uh, I want to thank Abby so muchfor coming on the pod.
Uh, I really appreciate her umjust uh openness and candidness
and being willing to talk aboutthe hard stuff.
Um, you know, this can't be aneasy situation to go through,
and you know, she just shared itwith thousands of people.
And uh yeah, that's gonna be atough thing to do.
(55:52):
So I really appreciate her beingwilling to talk about it.
So guys, you need to supporther.
The best way you can is to giveher a follow on two different
things.
Uh first and foremost, give hera follow on Instagram.
You can find her at Abigail DLock on Instagram, that's
Abigail D Lock.
I'll link it in the show notes.
And also her writing is amazing.
(56:13):
Um she frequently posts onSubstack, so I'm gonna link her
Substack in the show notes aswell.
And you can find her at a DLock, that's a D Lock one word,
um, or just type in Abigail Lockon um on Substack and uh
subscribe and give her a follow.
And uh yeah, her writing isamazing, and it's a good sub it,
it's a good uh um I guess asupplement to the podcast as
(56:37):
well, because the podcast doestell the story, but I think
there's a lot more informationdescription and some of her
write-ups and stuff like that.
So I think it's it kind of goestogether with it.
So um yeah, give her a follow onboth of those.
I'm sure she would reallyappreciate it.
Um last but not least, guys, ifyou enjoyed this episode or if
you've been enjoying thepodcast, um if you don't mind,
(56:57):
please give us a five-starrating and review on Apple,
Spotify, YouTube, or whereveryou consume your podcast.
That would mean the absoluteworld to me.
And it's how we can continue touh tell the stories of these
amazing athletes, uh, much likeAbigail's um yeah.
Uh and very last, last last, butnot at all least.
Uh the best way you can supportuh another another way you can
(57:19):
support us is by supporting ourbrand uh partner, Ultimate
Direction.
Uh give UD a shout.
Use code Steep Stuff Pod, that'sone word, Steepstuff Pod on
ultimatirection.com for 25% offyour cart.
Um yeah, they just dropped abrand new pull quiver, uh, a
whole new vest lineup.
In fact, I'm actually going upto HQ in a couple weeks to check
(57:41):
out a new iteration of a newvest uh that's gonna be coming
out, which I'm super pumped on.
I'll be modeling that, by theway.
Um and yeah, super cool.
Um yeah, use code Steep StuffPod.
That's gonna get you 25% offanything from UD.
Much love to them.
And uh yeah, uh guys, thanks somuch.
Have a great weekend.
I hope this podcast uhaccompanies you on your long
(58:02):
runs or on your workouts thisweekend.
So thanks for following along.
Much love to all of you.
Welcome back to this Deep Stuff Podcast.
I'm your host, James L'Oriello.
And today I'm so excited towelcome Abby Locke to the show.
Abby is an elite trailrunnerbased in Durango, Colorado.
And just a few months back, shewas getting ready for the race
of her life at the Broken ArrowAscent.
She was doing her last workoutand unfortunately suffered from
a collapsed lung.
(00:20):
And then just a few weeks later,suffered from another one.
And then the following month inAugust, had another one.
So over the course of June, Julyto August, Abby suffered from
three collapsed lungs, spentmultiple weeks in the hospital,
had a total of seven chesttubes, two surgeries, and
helicopter flights to get fromDurango or the Southwest
(00:41):
Colorado up to Grand Junction toget to the hospital.
She has a crazy story, and Ithink it's something everyone
could take a lot away from,especially the fact that she's
such an elite athlete at such ahigh level, had an em some
amazing finishes in 2024 and waspoised to have an incredible
season in 2025, and the sportitself was ripped away from her.
(01:03):
I don't want to go too deep intothe episode.
I want you guys to listen to it,but there's just a lot of a lot
of a really big comeback storyin this, and uh one of
inspiration.
I think you could take a lotaway from it.
And it's also a story of justnot getting too attached to a
sport or identifying and drawingan identity from just one thing.
It's it's really important to uhidentify with many things.
(01:25):
So without further ado, I reallywant to thank Ab Abby for coming
on the podcast and telling herstory.
Um hope you guys enjoy this one.
Abby Luck.
(02:41):
Abby Locke, welcome to the SteepStuff Podcast.
How's it going?
SPEAKER_01 (02:45):
It's going well, James.
Thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_00 (02:47):
Yeah, yeah.
Stoked to do this.
I think to get used to it.
Yeah, I'm stoked to be here.
I think to get us started, like,yo, your story is crazy.
It's it's a it is a wild one.
Like I've just spent the lastthree hours of my day reading
through your substack and liketrying to like piece together
everything and like get it allput together.
So I think that's that'sprobably a good place to start,
(03:09):
is maybe talk about your storyand we'll start from I guess uh
like June 13th and we'll go fromthere.
SPEAKER_01 (03:16):
Yeah, yeah, it's a pretty wild ride that I've been
on.
Um, so uh on June 13th, I wasfinishing my training block for
Broken Arrow, um, the ascent.
I that was my main race.
Um, that was kind of gonnadetermine the trajectory of my
year.
I was hoping to earn a spot onum the USA team for vertical.
(03:40):
And uh I love that race.
I love you know the vibe andjust the course and everything.
And I um I was excited to goback.
But I was running my finalsharpening workout, which was it
was a VO2 session on EngineerMountain, right north of
Durango, Colorado.
And uh it starts around like10,000 feet, and you go, you go
(04:03):
up to like 13 something.
Um, and so I had some like oneminute intervals planned, and it
wasn't gonna be a long workout,it was just gonna be like
intense.
Um, and so I I started the Istarted my warmup.
I felt fine.
I was a little tired, but youknow, nothing crazy.
And I start my intervals, and bythe time I hit maybe like my
(04:27):
maybe like fourth one or so likethat, I uh I got this crazy
sensation of like almost like amuscle cramp in my chest on the
right side.
And I was like, well, maybe Ididn't hydrate well this
morning, so I'm just gonna see.
I'm just gonna keep going.
Like, so I I did my walking restand then I started another
(04:51):
interval, and the pain got moreintense, and then it started to
work its way up into my neck andinto my face.
And I was just very, I wasunsure as to what this was.
And of course, being, you know,an athlete, a runner, you just
kind of like you you write offpain or you like push through
pain.
And I kept, you know, I wouldtake my rest.
(05:12):
And then it started as I wasgetting higher and higher up the
mountain, it started like my Iwas starting to lose my vision,
actually.
And that was what really cued meinto being like, okay, I need to
like really figure out what'sgoing on here.
So I sat on the side of thetrail and took a few deep
breaths and like really tried tokind of like put myself together
in peace, like what was actuallyhappening.
(05:34):
Um, and it got a little bitbetter as I was sitting there on
the side of the trail takingsome deep breaths.
And uh, so I got up, I tried foranother interval, and that one
was where my body would juststop me in my tracks.
And I was, you know, I was atthat point in a lot of pain, and
uh I was like unable to see, andI was like, okay, like this is
(05:55):
this is serious, like I need to,I need to turn around.
So I walked down and I I thinkit was probably maybe like a two
and a half to three mile walk.
Um, and it took me close to liketwo hours to get down, just
because every couple steps Iwould lose my vision and I like
would be really short of breathand I had to sit down and just
(06:15):
kind of like, you know, collectmyself to be able to take more
steps down the mountain.
And uh yeah, I I got back to ourvehicle at the time I was living
with my partner in a mini busconversion.
And I I even took a client call,um, a coach, and I uh I was on
the phone, a FaceTime call withmy client, and you know, I had
(06:39):
make I made the appointment, soI wanted to honor it.
Um, and I'm sitting there andI'm looking at the little screen
of myself and I'm watching mythe color drain from my face.
And I was like, I need to, Ineed to get off this call.
And come to find out, I I sitthere waiting for a little while
for my partner to return fromhis run.
(07:01):
And uh by that time, I was veryshort of breath.
The the pain was just likereally intense, radiating up
into my face.
And I was like, I need to go tothe ER.
By the time I get to the ER, Iwas like, wow, if this is a
panic attack, I'm gonna bereally embarrassed.
And I told them that.
And they were like, oh, honey,this isn't a panic attack.
(07:22):
Your lung, your right lung hascollapsed.
And I was like, floored.
I I had no idea that you couldeven do that.
You know, like I had heard ofthat in trauma instances with
like a car wreck or somethinglike that.
Um, but yeah, they they saidthat I had collapsed my right
lung and they were gonna have toput in a chest tube, which is
(07:42):
essentially they go in throughthe ribs and they try and get
the the lung to reinflate withsuction.
And so that's like an emergencyprocedure.
They they gave me like ketamine.
You're still awake and breathingfor it, which is a little crazy.
Um, but the ER doc was awesome.
He he kind of like set me up andwas like, envision a place that
(08:05):
you love to be and doingsomething that you love to do.
And you know, that was easy as arunner.
You go to your favorite trail orwhatever.
And that was, yeah, that was thefirst collapse of my lung and
the first chest tube of manythat you may have read about.
Um, so that was kind of thecatalyst for everything that
(08:27):
has, you know, basically blew upmy whole, my whole year, my
whole summer, and uh reallyshifted my perspective on life
and training and athletics andeverything.
SPEAKER_00 (08:38):
So crazy.
Yeah.
Let's let's uh all right, let melet me backtrack a little bit on
this.
Like I guess we could tell thestory, maybe tell the story,
keep it rolling for the secondand third collapse, and then
I'll ask questions like basedoff that.
SPEAKER_01 (08:54):
Okay.
So from there, I was in thehospital.
I was in the the local hospitalin Durango for a few days.
The typical procedure with acollapsed lung is they put a
chest tube in and they do, youknow, they try and get the lung
to reinflate, and then they takeyou off suction.
Um, and then they test to see ifthe like the tube is still in
(09:14):
you, but they want to make surethat the lung can like stay
inflated on its own essentiallywithout any help.
And uh, so you have to pass awater seal test, is what they
call it.
Um, and so that keeps you in thehospital for a while because
they have to play the waitinggame of will it stay up for 24
hours?
And you know, it's just kind ofrepeated.
(09:35):
I was getting multiple chestx-rays, you know, at least one a
day.
Um, and so I passed my waterseal test.
They they took the tube out, andum I was I was not given great
instruction.
I was told go easy for twoweeks.
So as an athlete, we all knowwhat easy, you know, to us is
(09:57):
not two, zone one, zone two.
Yeah, exactly.
What does that mean?
You know, like that's soarbitrary.
And um, yeah, nobody was givingme heart rate zones, no one was
giving me aerobic threshold,nothing.
I was trying to ask questions,but nobody had any answers for
me.
So I go home, I stay with myparents for a little bit because
you know, I'm trying to heal.
(10:17):
And I to me, easy is zone one,hiking on the uphill treadmill
for 90 minutes, you know, maybedoing like a really easy zwift
bike.
Come to find out, two weekslater, I am on the stationary
bike and I started having acrazy pain in my in between my
shoulders this time in my back.
(10:40):
And that, you know, it radiated.
At first, I was like, oh, it'sjust, you know, like, I don't
know, that's weird.
And then it started radiating upin my neck.
Um, and then I was like, ooh,this is not good, not good at
all.
And that one was reallyinteresting because with the
first collapse, I actually cameinto the ER with like 100% O2
(11:00):
sat.
And they were really surprisedbecause I had been at altitude.
I, you know, the lung hadcollapsed quite a bit.
It was a moderate size.
And um, with the second one, itwas such a small collapse.
Like they thought that high flowoxygen would help and they put
me on high flow.
Um, but I my O2 sat was in the80s, which is very low for me.
(11:23):
And I was my fingertips wereturning blue, like I was very
cold.
It was much more dramatic thesecond time than the first one,
honestly.
And so when I go to the ER inCortez, which is an even smaller
town than Durango, theyessentially tell me, you know,
there's not much we can do rightnow because this is your second
(11:46):
collapse.
You know, we can't just play thewaiting game with the chest tube
because it didn't work the firsttime.
Clearly, you need moreintervention.
So I was um flown in ahelicopter up to Grand Junction,
which has a larger hospital.
And that was where I receivedthe first surgery.
And that was essentially whatthey do is they scar up the
(12:08):
inside of your chest cavity andthey get the lung to reinflate
and stick to it.
Unfortunately, thathospitalization, I was in the
hospital for a little over twoweeks for that one, um, just
because of complications and alung collapse is a waiting game.
Quite like it's just like thisyou get a chest x-ray in the
(12:29):
morning, and then they test itand they chest x-ray you again.
And it's just this kind of,yeah, this cycle that you're
stuck in, um, waiting to see ifthe lung will adhere.
And so I finally was able to gohome.
And, you know, I just I was verycautious this this next time.
I was only walking, you know,maybe like 20 minutes, um, two
(12:52):
to three times a day is whatthey told me.
And I followed that.
My PA was amazing.
She really like, you know, shelistened to me um and what I was
doing in my training.
And she was like, okay, likewe're gonna, I'm gonna give you
exact parameters to follow herebecause clearly you need more
structure.
Like there's something herethat, you know, you you're not
(13:12):
gonna be able to dial it backyourself.
So here's what we're gonna tellyou to do.
And I stuck to that.
Um, and you know, they clearedme, they cleared me for
activity.
I think it was four weeks afterum or two weeks after the
initial that initial surgery.
So I was starting to, you know,not just flat walking anymore.
I was progressing.
(13:32):
I like hiked on the localmountain around here where um,
you know, it was like 90minutes, very easy, zone one.
Um, but unfortunately, uh fiveweeks post op, my lung collapsed
again.
SPEAKER_00 (13:46):
Was it the same one?
That's one thing I wasn't clear.
It was so still the right one.
SPEAKER_01 (13:50):
Wow.
It's all the right one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they were they wereabsolutely surprised.
They they were floored by it.
And um, they had to fly me againback up to Grand Junction.
And they did a more aggressiveprocedure um called a chemical
chloridesis, where it's not justlike the manual scraping of the
chest cavity.
It's actually like they theyused oxycycline um to irritate
(14:14):
the tissue further, and they dida more aggressive um scraping.
Sounds really gross, but that iswhat it is.
And uh the lung then adhered andI didn't have as many
complications, I didn't have asmuch pain that time.
Um, the hospitalization wasshorter.
I I think overall it was justlike a much better experience
(14:35):
than the first one.
I was able to go home, and thattransition to home was probably
the most difficult because I hadalready, you know, gone through
surgery the first time and itdidn't work.
So I didn't have a whole lot ofhope.
I was really, you know, in apretty tough spot.
Um, you know, like justmentally, physically, everything
(14:57):
was kind of falling apart, youknow, and I uh it it has taken a
lot of time, but as of today,I'm actually 12 weeks t 12 weeks
removed from that secondsurgery.
And I logged my first 50 milerunning week last week, and I'm
on my way to the second one thisweek.
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
That's amazing.
Do you yeah all right?
Let's let's backtrack this alittle bit.
Do you have any like any historyof anything like this?
The reason I ask is because likeI I read this as an athlete and
I run at a high level and I lovewhat I do, and um, and it's kind
of and like many peoplelistening to this probably have
an unhealthy relationship withrunning where it makes up a huge
(15:39):
part of your life.
Yeah.
Um you were kind of forced, likeit forced you to break with
break up with running for alittle bit.
It really did.
Do you have any background likewith this?
Like, or did it just kind ofcome out of the blue?
SPEAKER_01 (15:51):
This came out of the blue.
I don't even get a cold.
You know, I my parents both workin the health field, um, but I
have I've never set foot in ahospital.
Um, it was it was jarring, itwas brand new and entirely
jarring because I was on thecardiac floor in um in Grand
(16:12):
Junction, and you know, I'msurrounded by folks who have had
open heart surgery and have had,you know, just like really
intense things happen.
And I am the only one that'smobile, basically, with these
chest tubes.
You know, I'm walking laps, youknow, around the unit, and
everybody's like, you're doinggreat, you're doing great, like
what are you in for?
(16:33):
You know, like they're just solike shocked.
You're you're so fit, you're soyoung.
You know, being the only personprobably under 50 on the floor
both times was um it was quiteisolating, but honestly, it was
quite insightful because I don'tthink, you know, we take our
health for granted when we'reyoung and being able to, you
(16:57):
know, appreciate the things thatthose little things that you
miss, like just being able toopen a window, you know, or like
go out and like enjoy thesunshine, you know, not even not
even running, but those verysimple things that on the daily
basis we take for granted, youknow, let alone able-bodied
athletes.
Um, and so that was like as hardas it was, I must say that like
(17:21):
I've grown more as like aperson, as a human, in the past
like, you know, four months thanI have in years, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (17:31):
I love that.
Yeah.
Do you think I mean, like,obviously getting ready for
broken arrow and the fitnesslevel you were in, uh,
especially for the ascent, Imean, that's a lot of uphill VO2
work.
Do you think it was just likeyou were just stupid fit and
that's the reason you had 100%oxygen sat?
Like, is that probably what itwas?
SPEAKER_01 (17:51):
I believe so.
I mean, like, I looked at my myhemoglobin hematocrit numbers.
Um, they were they were reallyhigh and I was doing altitude
training, I was sleeping high.
You know, I think I was I waslucky um with that first
collapse and how dramatic itwas.
Um, because eventually, youknow, like with a lung collapse,
the reason that it can be fatalis it can crush your heart.
(18:14):
So they, you know, for a lot ofpeople, it's kind of you're
racing the clock.
For me, I didn't get care forlike five or six hours.
And um, you know, like to haveO2 sat that high, I'm very
fortunate.
You know, that's not that's notnormal.
Um, and so I I definitelyattribute my fitness to kind of
(18:36):
getting me down that mountainsafely and uh being able to
like, you know, hang out for theamount of time that I was
waiting for my partner at thetime.
So yeah, I I feel veryfortunate.
SPEAKER_00 (18:49):
I can't believe you took a client call.
That's crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (18:52):
Like that's I know.
SPEAKER_00 (18:54):
Like at what point in time did you like start
panicking like midway throughthat?
You're like, man, like maybe Ishouldn't be on this.
SPEAKER_01 (19:00):
Maybe I should yeah, maybe I should go to the
hospital.
I like I said, when I was seeingmyself turn white in the little
FaceTime box, I was like, allright, you know, maybe I should
call it.
And I texted her later when whenuh the procedure was done and I
was in my hospital room.
I was like, you're never gonnabelieve this.
I was talking to you with acollapsed lung.
(19:22):
So uh yeah, if that saysanything about my my personality
and my love for coaching, that'syeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:29):
Let's let's let's pivot a little bit.
I want to get into like some ofthe deeper aspects of it if
you're if you're open to talkingabout this.
Absolutely.
Just because it's like and Ikind of alluded to this in an
earlier question.
Like, I think a lot of usathletes, people listening to
this, like I have like aborderline unhealthy
relationship with the sport justbecause you love this so much
and you play, especially forsomeone like you.
(19:51):
Like, you know, you had anamazing season in 2024, you were
poised to have an amazing seasonin 2025 and compete for a spot
on that world's team.
Like, I I'm not saying you'llnever be there again because
it's definitely like in thecards for sure, but like how has
it changed your relationshipwith running?
Like, how do you view that now?
SPEAKER_01 (20:10):
It's changed it massively.
I was so single-minded in myfocus.
Um, I was living, eating,breathing, running.
Um, you know, my my other rolesas like I'm a coach.
I also work for a runningreviews website.
Those things are like still verypresent in my life.
But I'm also looking towardsother ways that I could connect
(20:33):
and like share, you know,somehow like my life experiences
and like help others.
And so I'm looking at otheravenues for that.
And I think that this whole dealhas like broadened my horizons
immensely and really put intoperspective that running is it's
fleeting, you know, it isn'tgonna be there forever.
(20:56):
And we have to be comfortablesitting with ourselves
sometimes.
And I think that as athletes, wecan often get so caught up in
staying, you know, ever for likemoving forward with progress all
the time.
And, you know, just like thatthat movement, that constant
movement.
(21:16):
Um, and I think, you know,literally having to sit with
myself, you know, not being ableto go even on a walk, really.
Like I couldn't walk for morethan 15 to 20 minutes at a time.
So, you know, what am I gonna dowith all this, you know, 20
hours of spare time?
And I I turned to new hobbies,you know, creative pursuits that
(21:36):
I haven't touched in a very longtime.
Um, it kind of like also makesyou lean on your friendships a
little more because sometimeswith running, it can be so it's
kind of a it's a selfishendeavor when we really think
about it.
And so when you no longer havethat, it's like, okay, I don't
want to focus on myself all thetime.
How can I, how can I show up forother people?
(21:58):
And how can I, you know, be abetter friend, be a better
daughter, be a better, likegranddaughter, even.
Um so I think really it was anopportunity to kind of look
deeper and create a moresustainable relationship with
the sport and like just with myown humanity.
SPEAKER_00 (22:18):
Yeah.
It's weird, right?
Like when you running's takenaway from you, you start to
realize like how much of it yourlife it takes up, which is it
does a little crazy.
You mentioned, you know, being abetter friend, being a better
daughter, like you know, youdon't realize like the
sacrifices you make to be anelite athlete.
Like it you I mean, I mean,people spend what 12 to 25 hours
a week playing in the mountains,plus all the other little things
(22:41):
that go into it.
Like it's it's a job.
SPEAKER_01 (22:43):
It is, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
Yeah, it's it's it's a weird, I don't know, it's a
weird thing.
Like the fact that like we'reall called to do this.
I don't I don't get it.
SPEAKER_01 (22:50):
Yeah, it's a beautiful thing, but I think
it's also we have to sometimestake a step back and remember,
you know, nobody's gonnaremember your Stravagraph or
your Strava crowns, you know, atthe end of the day.
Like, you know, it's morbid, butwhen you think about it on your
deathbed, like what remains isour connections with other
(23:11):
people and the impacts thatwe've had in each other's lives.
Um, and so that's kind of youknow, my realization with
things.
And I I love running and Ialways will be a runner,
whatever capacity that lookslike.
I'm not attached to the outcome,but I think that you know, when
it comes down to it, I'm notjust a runner and I'm so much
(23:33):
more.
And we all are, we're all somuch more.
SPEAKER_00 (23:35):
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah, and I think that well, Idon't know, not that just that
makes you a better person, but Ithink that makes you a better
runner in the long term, justbecause you're not married to a
result anymore or married tothis aspect, it it kind of
changes things.
What what new hobbies did youpick up?
Like I you're obviously you'reyou're an amazing writer, like
your Substack, and I'll linkthat in the show notes so people
uh can get to it and uh read it.
(23:57):
But also you also review um forWeViews as well.
What kind of like other hobbieslike have you picked up or jobs
and things that you've beendoing?
SPEAKER_01 (24:06):
Um, so I really got into watercolor, which is fun,
it's a fun medium, especiallyfor me and and anybody else
who's type A, because watercoloris finicky.
There is no, you have somesemblance of control, but a lot
of it is up to like, you know,the water balance that you have
on the page.
(24:26):
And so there is an element oflike having to let go and just
like accept what comes.
And so that was the reason Ipicked that.
You know, I was like, what issomething like, and I wouldn't
consider myself a very likeartistic person.
Um, you know, and I just likeone day woke up with the idea,
like, I need a creative pursuitthat I can sit there and learn,
(24:47):
like try to like attempt masterythat I could do when I'm 80
years old.
And um that was what called me.
So I've been I've been learninghow to how to watercolor, and
that's been that's been super,super fun.
SPEAKER_00 (25:01):
I love it.
Now you had mentioned your momuh was doing some knitting as
well.
I picked that up in one of yoursubsects.
Did you pick up any knitting aswell?
SPEAKER_01 (25:10):
I uh you know, I haven't picked up knitting.
Um, it's a little too likerepetitive.
I wanted something that I reallyhad to think about and like kind
of I enjoy drawing too, so thatthe watercolor complemented that
nicely.
The the knitting is a little toorepetitive, like I said.
I'm like, I don't think I couldget into that, but I respect it.
(25:30):
I think it's a great, it's socool the blankets and stuff she
makes.
I'm like, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (25:35):
That's cool.
That's cool.
You had mentioned control.
This is such an interestingaspect because I feel like I I
guess it's a type A thing.
I'm kind of a lunatic, like alunatic about this with certain
aspects.
Like you want to be in control.
Like you want to, if you're witha group of people, you want to
drive.
There's like different things,like with type A people like
wanting to be in control ofstuff.
This is one of those weird timesin your life where like you
(25:57):
don't really have a lot ofcontrol mentally.
How was that uh I mean,obviously the watercolor helps
and stuff like that, butultimately like overcoming that
aspect and realizing like it'salmost like this fear and
anxiety, like like will thiscome back?
Will this happen again?
Like, how how have you been ableto kind of like work through
that?
SPEAKER_01 (26:16):
Yeah, that's a that's a great question because
it's not it's not a finishedprocess, right?
It's very much in the works, andthat's something that I've had
to really, yeah, sit with.
And I think it sounds a littlecheesy, but I think that you
know, I've kind of leaned into alittle bit more of my
spirituality through this.
Um, because when you accept yourpowerlessness and you just kind
(26:40):
of like you realize thatultimately we don't have any
control, um, when you kind oflean into that a little more,
you invite space for somethingbigger than yourself.
And that is, you know, whateverGod of your understanding, you
know, that that might look like.
Um, for me, that's kind of beensomething that I've found.
(27:03):
And um I have a brand newappreciation for that um that I
didn't have before, if I'mhonest.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:12):
Wow.
Yeah, and I it's it's yeah, it'ssuch a crazy, I don't know, it's
a crazy thing to kind of justlet go and just like back off
and like, man, you know.
What does running?
I guess like what obviouslyrunning looks a little different
now.
You just hit you're working onyour second 50 mile week.
How careful are you?
And like how like how do youlike grapple with like do you do
(27:36):
workouts?
I don't know.
I'm sorry, I'm all over theplace with that.
SPEAKER_01 (27:38):
No, yeah, that's a great question because I think
it was something that I reallyhad to think about as well.
I'm like, okay, what risks am Iwilling to take?
And to me, I was just like,okay, the only things that I can
control is just like intensityprogression and volume
progression.
Like I'm gonna treat it like Iwould for a client, you know.
Um, I'm just gonna monitor themetrics that I can and go off of
(28:03):
those and kind of likeundershoot.
I think that's been my goal.
Like, okay, I know I could dothis, but I'm gonna do like 10%
to 20% less than what I know Icould do.
And not, you know, as hard as itis, not pushing myself because I
think I was always very like,okay, I if I just like push for
the next level, the next levelthat it was like, you know, that
(28:24):
was very fulfilling, but alsothat doesn't help with healing.
So kind of learning to learningto undershoot and to just be
like, okay, did I feel betterafter that run or did I feel
worse?
Am I having more chronic pain,more inflammation?
And using really tuning into thebody, um, that's been really
helpful, which is like theopposite of what we do as
(28:46):
athletes sometimes.
We're like, oh, like, you know,we got to ignore that pain
because we gotta keep training.
Um, but for me, I've kind ofjust like gone a little softer
with things and really honoredwhat the body is asking for.
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
Do you like consult with doctors?
Like, I'm sure you have a teamnow, a group of people that I'm
sure you're you're doing a lotof uh going for checkups and
getting checked out and stuff.
But like, do you tell them like,oh, this is this is what I'm
gonna be doing?
Like, and this is what I plan toget back to?
And what are those conversationskind of look like?
Are they cool with that?
SPEAKER_01 (29:18):
So it was interesting.
Um they actually, my surgeon,the at my like most recent
surgeon for that most recentappointment when they cleared
me, he's like, Oh, you can justlike resume training as normal.
And the PA was standing behind,like, she was just like, No, no,
no, no, no.
You know, and so because sheknew my case a little bit
(29:39):
better.
Like, he's a great surgeon, buthe, you know, wasn't familiar
with me as a human.
He knew I was a runner, but youknow, that that's so like you
know, that can mean a lot ofthings.
But she was very much more tunedin and like, okay, you know,
we're gonna, I want you to justbe really careful with your
progression, but you know,ultimately, this the surgery
should, you know, allow you.
(30:00):
You to run at high altitude, um,to do all the things that you've
done before.
You just can't go scuba divingand you can't fly in an
unpressurized aircraft.
Those are the two things thatyou can't do.
And I'm like, well, I don'tswim, so scuba diving, that
won't be a problem.
Yeah.
So really, yeah, they've clearedme to do anything that I want to
(30:23):
do and that the body allows for.
So that's ultimately like myhope is to just, you know,
listen to the body and and youknow, take whatever it can give
me, really.
SPEAKER_00 (30:36):
You would you would alluded to in one of your
write-ups um about likepotential long-term stuff, like
not being totally sure like whatcaused this and and if there
could be something underlying orwhatnot.
Um, like, are you going througha battery of tests to try to
figure that out?
Like, how does that, what doesthat look like going forward?
SPEAKER_01 (30:55):
Yeah, yeah.
That's definitely been kind ofthe the sort of Damocles hanging
over my head, right?
I think that um so there were CTimages of my other lung that
indicate there is a like athinning, um, which is
essentially what they think uhcollapsed the first lung.
And so there's possibility thatit is on the left side as well.
(31:18):
And so, you know, they they wantme to go for genetic testing,
um, gonna get established with apulmonologist, all these things
to kind of get the get that ballrolling to kind of understand
what may have caused this.
Um, it is an interestingphenomena that I, the PA who
worked with me, she worked at anAir Force base, I believe.
(31:39):
Um, and she said it was verycommon for folks going through
boot camp, uh, like a highlystressful period, um, low little
sleep, not great recovery, thatyou know, a lot of them would
actually collapse their lungs.
And um, she had seen a lot ofthat.
And so it's kind of interesting.
It usually happens to tall,skinny men, but it can happen to
(32:03):
women too.
So um there is a there's achance that it's not entirely
genetic and it is just somethingthat I was born with, and you
know, um, it will be fixed withwith surgery, but yeah, there's
there's kind of some unknownthere.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:19):
Wow, that's great.
It's so nuts.
Like, what an interesting thing.
Do you um so being in southwestColorado, like Durango, Cortez,
like I obviously you had to getairlifted and you had to go up
to Grand Junction.
What is it like as far as likeliving there?
It's gotta be tougher to getlike good medical like
treatment, right?
Like I'm surprised they didn'tsend you to like Denver or like
(32:41):
Albuquerque or something or SaltLake or something like that.
SPEAKER_01 (32:44):
Yeah, they um I'm actually gonna go to Denver for
my next, like for my specialistsand stuff, um, because they are
a bigger institution.
But um the care in GrandJunction was incredible.
So I must say, like, even thoughthey're not the biggest
hospital, they were absolutely,you know, incredible people.
(33:06):
So yeah, it's living in anisolated area makes it a little
more, I don't know,uncomfortable.
But at the same time, I knowthat you know, I I got great
care where I went.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
The other question I have with oxygen sat is um and
like lungs and stuff like that.
Would it benefit you to like lowlive at a lower altitude?
Like does that ever come upwell?
SPEAKER_01 (33:29):
Oh, it's definitely come up.
I mean, like, you know, forhealing purposes, um that was
kind of a discussion, like yeah,my my roommate actually brought
it up.
And I it's funny because I'mjust I'm from the area and I've
never had an issue.
Um I think to me, the pairing ofthe high altitude and that
(33:51):
really intense workout, that'salmost it makes me feel a little
bit better because I don't needto touch those two things at
once.
Um, that's definitely somethingthat I can opt out of and still
perform at a decent level.
So, you know, that I think likeif it is the case that I've had
this my whole life and I'vegotten this far without it
(34:14):
happening, I mean, you know,like again, we can only control
so much.
And I think that the I don'twant to live in fear, but I want
to be smart.
So I'm kind of walking that thatline.
SPEAKER_00 (34:27):
The living in fear aspect is the hardest part.
Like it's almost like you gottabe an incredibly like strong
human to not have anxiety andworry about that.
Like, dude, I had like a uh Ihad a small injury like in April
slash like through June.
And I've been I always getstressed out.
I'm like, oh my god, is it gonnacome back and stuff like that?
And that's such like littlethings compared to like what
(34:48):
you're going through.
So I can't imagine what it'slike thinking about like, oh my
gosh, like could this happenagain?
And how do I work on that?
Um, I do want to pivot a littlebit and get back to the surgery
stuff.
I just find this so interesting,like as a nerd.
Dude, it must have like freakedyou out having to get,
especially in you you were verydescriptive in one of your
write-ups.
I think it was the first onewhen you had your first
(35:09):
collapsed lung where they gaveyou ketamine, but it was like a
in a local anesthetic and thenthey cut you open.
Like they don't put you out, putyou out for something like that.
SPEAKER_01 (35:17):
No, no, no.
So it was it was actually quitepowerful because ketamine is,
you know, they use it in therapyand stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00 (35:28):
Hell of a drug.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:29):
It is, it is.
And I must say that the firsttime that they used it, I think
it was a combination of like theadrenaline from being told that
I was, you know, I had acollapsed lung, and the um
surgeon actually walking methrough that process of like go
to your happy place type thing.
I actually had a really powerfulexperience where I kind of like
had a bit of an ego death whereI just had this like wave of
(35:52):
acceptance wash over me.
And I was, I felt, I don't know,like I just kind of felt like
whatever is meant to be will be,you know.
And that was really there was itwas somewhat cathartic because
yeah, they are.
They're like fighting yourintercostals to get this tube
in.
It's really messed up.
Like it's it's not fun, like byany means.
(36:14):
But I must say that like that umthat experience wasn't all that
traumatic because yeah, theythey actually did a good job
with like getting me to calmdown and like in the right
headspace.
So and then I've had so intotal, um, when I count like
everything, I've had seven chesttubes, um, and then like those
(36:37):
two those two surgeries and twoflights for life.
Like it's just like thischecklist of craziness.
SPEAKER_00 (36:44):
But seven chest tubes.
That's crazy.
So you're you're pro by now.
SPEAKER_01 (36:48):
That's all like I I tell I joke.
I joke.
I have like friends who are innursing school.
I'm like, so when they do yourunit on you know, chest tubes
and all that stuff, like justbring me in.
I can be, you know, I can be aconsultant for placement and
stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00 (37:03):
I was kind of amazed at how much you knew about like
different like pharmaceuticalsand stuff.
You're like, oh, just just takethis for nausea or something
like that.
And it was like a Zofran, yeah,for tip for ultra runners.
I was like, that's interesting.
Never heard of that in my life.
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (37:16):
Well, yeah, like so.
I used to work as a compoundingtech actually in a pharmacy.
So I'm a little more familiarwith drugs, and my parents are
both in the medical field.
But yeah, like the Zofran savedmy life when I was in the
hospital.
So yeah, I highly recommend ifyour doctor's willing to write
for it, it's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (37:36):
Crazy, crazy.
All right, let's pivot a littlebit.
I want to talk more about you asthe person um and get into like
you as the coach, you as thewriter, you as, you know, where
like where you want running togo now that you're on this kind
of a different path.
Um, let's talk about you and thecoaching aspect.
Like, how do you how much do youlove coaching?
Like how long you've been doingit for, and like like how is
(37:59):
like how is that going for you?
SPEAKER_01 (38:01):
So uh, you know, I really do love it.
I kind of I keep a pretty smallroster of folks because I do so
many other things.
Um, but the folks that I do haveon, I absolutely love
interacting with them.
Um and just like, you know, kindof I've been with a lot of these
folks for quite a while.
And uh it's it's just cool towatch them grow as athletes and
(38:22):
kind of like be a hugesupporting role in that and um
kind of like exploring their ownpotential, whatever that looks
like.
I have some folks that don'teven race, they just want to
like have big adventures and youknow, I'm I'm there for that.
And uh so I've been doing this,I've been having clients
probably since late, well, Iguess late 2020, early 2021.
(38:44):
Um, I did kind of start in theweight loss space and it wasn't
for me.
And I did, I was like, okay,like I how can I direct this
more towards athletes?
And so now I I work um withfolks on their endurance
nutrition plans.
Um, and then I also do just likeprogramming for you know,
skiing, running, whatever kindof endurance pursuit.
SPEAKER_00 (39:05):
So interesting.
How long have you been runningfor?
Like, did you run all the wayback since like high school?
SPEAKER_01 (39:10):
Yeah, I did.
I ran in middle school, but Ididn't end up going to college
for running because I I wantedjust like a normal college
experience.
Um, and I think that actuallysaved like my relationship with
running a little bit.
I think I would have burnedmyself to a crisp had I run in
college.
And so um, yeah, I'm actuallyquite even though I have
regrets, I'm like, oh, would Ibe faster?
(39:31):
Would I be more, you know, like,but I think that ultimately it
made me a happier runner.
So maybe I'm faster for that.
SPEAKER_00 (39:39):
Uh probably.
When did you like discover thetrail scene?
Like, when did that become athing for you?
SPEAKER_01 (39:43):
I think, you know, it's funny.
I was kind of thinking on thisthe other day, and I would say
that um Courtney DeWalter goingon uh Joe Rogan, uh and it's so
like cliche, right?
But I remember that interviewand I was just floored.
Like I knew people trail run,like that was in my awareness,
but I just remember that being areally like an indelible mark on
(40:05):
my memory.
And then I ran my very firsttrail race in 2019 at the Moab
Trail Half, um, and just lovedit.
Like I was like, oh my God, likethis is so much more fun than
like road running, you know?
So um, yeah, that was kind oflike my where I dipped my toes
in.
And then I didn't, I didn't racea bunch.
Like I was just kind of like, Ijust love training so much, and
(40:27):
I just love being out in themountains.
And then like I think last yearwas where I really got a little
more serious and was like, okay,like let me dip my toes in like
more competitive fields.
And so I, you know, went toBroken Arrow and got in the top
10 for both the 23k and the andthe VK.
And then I did like MammothTrail Fest, and you know, I was
injured for like the the bigrace, the golden trail race, but
(40:49):
I did run the ascent andabsolutely loved it.
So I was just like, I don'tknow, it racing has definitely
come more on my radar over theyears.
SPEAKER_00 (40:58):
What was that like for you?
You had pretty much immediatesuccess.
Like you were like prettytalented in the sport, like
almost right away.
Like for 2024, I every year isthe most like I we always say
like the most competitive brokenarrow, right?
Like 2024 is stupid competitive.
You get in the top 10 of both ofthose races at BA.
What was that like?
(41:18):
Like, were you like at thatpoint starting to think about
okay, how do I get partnerships,go through the sponsorship kind
of realm?
Like, like, like what were youthinking about at that point?
SPEAKER_01 (41:28):
I think I was just floored because I I had had so
much self-doubt for so longbecause I didn't run in college,
I didn't compete.
I was like, who am I to stand onthe starting line with these
incredible women?
You know, like who do I think Iam that I'm gonna like run with
Tabor Hemming, you know, RachelTamashik and like all these
girls.
Um and so that was really a coolexperience to like run with
(41:52):
them, compete with them,interact with them.
They're lovely humans and thethe vibe, like the community of
the trail running, like trailrunning in general, and then
like broken arrow itself wasjust yeah, it just really
reinforced some self-beliefthere that I didn't have.
And um, so that was that wasquite powerful, you know.
I I definitely I I leanedfurther in after that.
SPEAKER_00 (42:16):
Crazy.
And then for you, so you wereinjured for the Mammoth
Trailfest and still got like Iwas top 20 result like in a
golden trail year.
SPEAKER_01 (42:23):
Talk about it.
Yeah, I uh I did some dumbthings in training where I just
I just flew a little close tothe sun and I uh had an IT band
injury that was just like it washammering me.
Like it was just not not movingalong.
And so I took, I want to say Itook like maybe a week or so
(42:43):
off, or maybe it was only likefour or five days off before the
dragons back ascent.
And I didn't run a step, Ididn't, I hardly walked because
it was like it was debilitatingpain.
Um, and I was like, well, youknow what?
We're gonna try it.
It's all uphill, it shouldn'thurt that much.
And uh, so I was really stale,but it was so much fun to just
(43:04):
like I was redliningimmediately, you know.
And uh yeah, like I get up tothe up to the top and um like
getting chased through the thefinish line with the cowbell and
everything, the energy was justlike it was so much fun.
But then I I made the decisionto run the is it the the longer
distance, is it it's not 23k,it's a little longer.
SPEAKER_00 (43:25):
I think it's a 26k?
26k.
SPEAKER_01 (43:28):
Yeah, 26k.
And that was the golden trailrace.
I'm like, you know, I'm here, Iknow I'm injured, and it's
probably gonna set me back alittle bit, but I'll just take
some time off and it'll be okay.
And so I I did run it, and itwas not a fun time.
I definitely just like had tojog a lot of the downhills um
because the downhill was whatwas like really agonizing.
(43:49):
So it wasn't, it definitelywasn't how I would have liked to
debut in Golden Trail, but itwas a wonderful experience to
just like tow the line and andrun that beautiful course.
And yeah, don't regret it.
SPEAKER_00 (44:02):
I read something about you, I think it might have
been on WeViews.
It was like one of your likebucket list races, and I saw on
there the Pikes Peak Ascent.
Is that still is that like ifyou if you make this comeback,
is that gonna be on the list fornext year?
SPEAKER_01 (44:15):
It you know, it was on the list for this year.
I had I had my elite entry, um,and that was gonna be my you
know.
SPEAKER_00 (44:22):
So I'm on the board of breaks.
I remember this.
Okay, okay.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:26):
Yeah.
So I I the idea was if I didn'tmake the team, I was gonna A
race pikes.
And um, so and yeah, like thatrace, just the fact that you can
go a half marathon all uphill,that's like right up my alley,
because I don't love goingdownhill all that much.
So um I would love to be able todo it in the future.
I think the altitude at themoment kind of freaks me out,
(44:49):
just with everything that I dohave going on.
Um, but you know, if I was in aplace where I did feel a little
more secure in in the body andand got my test results and got
an idea of what I'm up against,yeah, I would absolutely train
for that.
SPEAKER_00 (45:03):
It's interesting.
Like you, I I could tell just bytalking to you, uh, and I'm sure
the audience picks up on this,just like how much you love like
the you know, the sport andrunning and just the form of it.
Will you will you ever allowyourself to like get in that
mindset again of like fallingback in love with I guess with
the competition aspect of it?
Like let's say in a perfectworld things progress and you
(45:24):
start to feel good again in theway that you did before.
Um, or will you not allow whereyou keep keep yourself a
multidimensional person and andkeep running in a different
bucket?
Like, how will you kind of shapethat up?
SPEAKER_01 (45:36):
Yeah, I've thought on that a lot because it is
starting to feel more realistic.
Um, I do think, you know, I wantto I want to dip my toes into
the longer stuff because youdon't need to do, I mean, you
should do VO2 work, but youdon't need to do as much VO2
work.
So that's kind of where I seethat appeal.
Um, but I do, you know, I Ialways admire um Rachel Tomajik,
(45:58):
she talked a little bit aboutthis on the pod.
And like I I admire her abilityto kind of separate the identity
and really have a lot of balancethere.
And that's something that I wantbecause I want longevity in the
sport.
Um and I think that the way thatI was approaching things was
burning the candle bulletins.
(46:19):
And uh yeah, I think ultimatelyI I want to like fall in love
with the sport, but maybe it's adifferent type of love.
It's less, less obsessive and alittle more, a little more
healthy.
SPEAKER_00 (46:31):
Yeah, balance.
I think with anything in life isis balance.
Um shift gears a little more.
I uh I was I think I was lurkingyour, I can't remember if it was
Strava or maybe it wasInstagram.
You spent some time out in thenortheast doing some northeast
trails this past year.
Yo, talk about that.
The northeast is dope.
I think it slept.
SPEAKER_01 (46:48):
Oh my gosh, so fun.
SPEAKER_00 (46:49):
So much fun.
SPEAKER_01 (46:50):
The cat skills are so fun.
They I at first I've been outthere a couple times.
Um, my previous partner was fromuh the northeast, and he has
the, I believe he has the FKTfor the cat skill, um, the
devil's path.
Yeah.
So we went out there severaltimes, and it took me, I would
say it took me like a handful ofruns to be able to kind of wrap
(47:13):
my head, my ankles, everythingaround it, and be like, okay,
I'm not gonna die.
I just need to like really payattention.
It's a four-limb, like you'reyou're climbing, you're you're
using all four limbs, and you'reso engaged all the time um that
you don't need music.
You don't, you're you're in it,and you know, you can spend five
(47:33):
hours out there banking likeinsane vert and not pay for it
because it's at sea level.
Yep.
So it's so much fun.
I I think that it like Northeastis just like highly ununderrated
in terms of trail and and thesub-ultra scene.
I think they have a really cool,like the um run the whites when
they were doing the segment umcontests essentially.
(47:56):
I think that's a wonderful idea.
I wish more folks in the Westwould kind of take, you know, do
stuff like that.
Because I think everything's socentered around ultra um that
it'd be fun to see more, yeah,competitive sub-ultra type
stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (48:10):
Oh, that'd break.
That's like a whole differentpodcast we could do.
What's your what's your take onthat?
I do, I this drives me crazy.
I feel like in in the US, we areso ultra like ultra-centric.
I was on a group run last night,actually, and I just heard like
a newcomer to the sport wastalking about, oh, you know, my
longest race has only been a15K, and I I just, you know, I I
(48:30):
can only do this.
And I'm like, that's great.
15K is awesome.
Like you could run that reallyhard and get the most out of
yourself.
Like, we have this culture inAmerica where everything's like
50k to 100 miles, and I don'tunderstand that.
Um, obviously, you I mean, forthe most of your career, it
seems like you've done prettymuch everything under a 50k.
Like, what got you so excitedabout like the the short trail
(48:52):
scene?
SPEAKER_01 (48:54):
I mean, for myself, I found a little more success
with it, especially because it'slike you know, shorter, steeper,
uphill stuff that is like mybread and butter typically.
Um, the I I did run 150k, and itwas funny because it was back
before we understood springenergy.
And I remember I I took in, Ithink I was doing like maybe if
(49:18):
I was lucky, like 10 to 15 gramsof carbs an hour at like, you
know, in Silverton, the 50k loopthere.
And I just I blew up so hard.
I took a wrong, I took multiplewrong turns.
I it was just my first, like, itwas my first ultra, and I just
like totally dropped the ball onit.
So that kind of like I was like,okay, like I don't know, that
(49:42):
was really painful.
I'm gonna try and like goshorter and see how see how it
goes from there.
And um, yeah, I just found moreI found more success and I
really enjoyed the shorter,spicier stuff um after that like
50k experience.
SPEAKER_00 (49:57):
Essentially I wouldn't say I had the same
exact situation, but yeah, I rana 50k.
It was like my first race, had aterrible, terrible day, and
yeah, really like the shortstuff so much better.
I don't know why.
But I guess it's you kind oflike gravity to the stuff you
find success at.
SPEAKER_01 (50:13):
So I guess you do, you do, yeah.
But there's definitely a part ofme after going through all this,
um, you know, that is verycurious about the mental aspect
of ultras.
Um, I do think that is somethingthat I haven't fully explored
and that I I want to at thispoint, um, because I remember
(50:34):
sitting in the hospital withmultiple surgical chest tubes
and not not sleeping for likefour or five days.
Um and just thinking to myself,you know what?
I think an ultra sounds prettyeasy after all of this.
So yeah, I might end up doingthat in the long term.
SPEAKER_00 (50:52):
Is there any like races that call to you?
Like uh Black Canyon orsomething more mountainous?
Like what like what stands out?
SPEAKER_01 (50:58):
Yeah.
I think right now I would I Iwould love to like do something
like uh Black Canyon, where it'slike a lower, lower altitude,
that kind of thing.
But I'm also you know, I'm opento there's this race in um it's
in Silverton called the JohnCappus.
I don't know if you've everheard of it.
SPEAKER_00 (51:15):
Oh yeah, I've been been wanting to do this race for
years and it just never fed inon my uh on my calendar.
SPEAKER_01 (51:20):
Right.
And so it's kind of you know,it's one of those races that you
can go out there and just youknow, kind of you're you're
hiking a lot, you're routefinding a lot.
And so, you know, you never knowhow the day is gonna turn out,
but there's plenty of plenty ofopportunities to bail.
So I could, you know, go outthere with some girlfriends and
just have a big adventure day.
So that also appeals to me.
(51:41):
So, you know, I I think it'sjust gonna be, you know, like
what the what the body allowsfor and um mentally what I can,
you know, maintain some balance,um, but also pursue a goal.
SPEAKER_00 (51:54):
So I love it.
Uh and on the topic of JohnCappy is like, yo, that is, I
mean, I I don't want to blow itup too much because I feel like
it should be uh like a communitycommunity.
SPEAKER_01 (52:03):
It's a low-key.
SPEAKER_00 (52:04):
Yeah, yeah.
I don't um we'll talk about itoffline, but like it's don't do
it, people.
Don't, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (52:10):
Yeah, it's horrible.
SPEAKER_00 (52:12):
Um yeah, I lost my trade of thought.
What was I?
So we talked about ultras.
We talked about, oh, yo, do youjust have like a whole new like
understanding and like levelwhen it comes to pain?
Like and as well as like thatmental unlock where you feel
like you can do anything nowafter kind of going through all
that stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (52:28):
It's funny.
I was talking to a friend on arun the other day and saying,
Wow, my my fear of runningdownhill hard, it's like not
there anymore.
I, you know, because I'm likethe bodily harm that can come
from like eating it on adownhill pales in comparison to
what I've been through.
So there is some like weirdthing like mentally that I've
(52:51):
unlocked there.
And there is like a less, Iwould say I was a baseline,
pretty anxious person before allthis happened, and it's almost
taken me down a notch and andbeen this um yeah, grow like
experience that is really putthings in context.
Like, is this really all thatbad?
Or, you know, are we like hypingthings up in our brain?
SPEAKER_00 (53:11):
Well, that's the thing.
It's like, dude, we worry aboutwork and all this garbage, and
then when you're actually facedwith something with your own
mortality or you know, with you,like I it really just kind of
puts things, I guess, under orin in the right peripheral, you
know, in the right direction,like where you can nothing
really matters when you're whenyour health is on the line, you
(53:33):
know?
Absolutely.
Nothing really matters, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:35):
And you know, I must say that when I did spend,
because over the summer, I spentabout a month cumulatively
hospitalized.
And so when you're in thatenvironment and you see folks
that are entirely dependent on acaregiver, they can't speak,
can't walk, you know, they maybedon't have family in the rooms
with them.
(53:56):
Um, it's it's hard to see, andyou really you put things in
context and you're like, wow, Ifeel really fortunate.
Like even though I'm goingthrough this really dark thing,
you know, there are so manypeople that would, you know,
they would give anything to justwalk around outside, let alone,
you know, explore the mountainslike on foot and run, you know.
(54:19):
So that that definitely kind ofput things in perspective for
me.
SPEAKER_00 (54:23):
I'm sure.
I mean, you know, yeah, you whenyou're in a hospital, you see
people coming in and peopleleaving, you know.
It's it's a it's a it's a reallydifficult, I don't know, it's
it's just a it's a lot ofhumanity that you don't normally
see in everyday life.
So yeah, it's not an easy thingto uh kind of grapple with.
And yeah, we are very lucky,especially, you know, most of
the people listening to this,you know, it's a it's a running
(54:45):
podcast, so most of them arerunners, you know.
And I think a lot of people putmaybe just so much undue
pressure on themselves toperform or this and that.
But like you said in thebeginning of the episode, like
no one's gonna remember you ifyou I don't know, if you win a
Cirque series race or a GoldenTrail race, like it's it's over
and nobody really cares in a fewyears, you know.
Yeah.
Less than that.
(55:05):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (55:06):
Yeah.
I mean by the next next race,you know?
It's yeah, that that reallydoesn't stay around.
unknown (55:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (55:15):
I think it's a good stopping point.
I feel like we do you feel likewe got everything.
Is there anything else you wantto get into?
SPEAKER_01 (55:20):
I don't think so.
I really appreciate you havingme on.
SPEAKER_00 (55:23):
Yeah, I appreciate it.
Thank you.
I I really appreciate you comingon and telling your story.
It was a great conversation, anduh yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (55:29):
Of course.
SPEAKER_00 (55:31):
What'd you guys think?
Oh man, well, what a powerfulepisode.
Uh, I want to thank Abby so muchfor coming on the pod.
Uh, I really appreciate her umjust uh openness and candidness
and being willing to talk aboutthe hard stuff.
Um, you know, this can't be aneasy situation to go through,
and you know, she just shared itwith thousands of people.
And uh yeah, that's gonna be atough thing to do.
(55:52):
So I really appreciate her beingwilling to talk about it.
So guys, you need to supporther.
The best way you can is to giveher a follow on two different
things.
Uh first and foremost, give hera follow on Instagram.
You can find her at Abigail DLock on Instagram, that's
Abigail D Lock.
I'll link it in the show notes.
And also her writing is amazing.
(56:13):
Um she frequently posts onSubstack, so I'm gonna link her
Substack in the show notes aswell.
And you can find her at a DLock, that's a D Lock one word,
um, or just type in Abigail Lockon um on Substack and uh
subscribe and give her a follow.
And uh yeah, her writing isamazing, and it's a good sub it,
it's a good uh um I guess asupplement to the podcast as
(56:37):
well, because the podcast doestell the story, but I think
there's a lot more informationdescription and some of her
write-ups and stuff like that.
So I think it's it kind of goestogether with it.
So um yeah, give her a follow onboth of those.
I'm sure she would reallyappreciate it.
Um last but not least, guys, ifyou enjoyed this episode or if
you've been enjoying thepodcast, um if you don't mind,
(56:57):
please give us a five-starrating and review on Apple,
Spotify, YouTube, or whereveryou consume your podcast.
That would mean the absoluteworld to me.
And it's how we can continue touh tell the stories of these
amazing athletes, uh, much likeAbigail's um yeah.
Uh and very last, last last, butnot at all least.
Uh the best way you can supportuh another another way you can
(57:19):
support us is by supporting ourbrand uh partner, Ultimate
Direction.
Uh give UD a shout.
Use code Steep Stuff Pod, that'sone word, Steepstuff Pod on
ultimatirection.com for 25% offyour cart.
Um yeah, they just dropped abrand new pull quiver, uh, a
whole new vest lineup.
In fact, I'm actually going upto HQ in a couple weeks to check
(57:41):
out a new iteration of a newvest uh that's gonna be coming
out, which I'm super pumped on.
I'll be modeling that, by theway.
Um and yeah, super cool.
Um yeah, use code Steep StuffPod.
That's gonna get you 25% offanything from UD.
Much love to them.
And uh yeah, uh guys, thanks somuch.
Have a great weekend.
I hope this podcast uhaccompanies you on your long
(58:02):
runs or on your workouts thisweekend.
So thanks for following along.
Much love to all of you.
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