October 30, 2025 • 48 mins
Ready to stop signing up for everything and start building a season that actually fits your life? We sit down with CTS coach Addison Smith to design a smarter year from the ground up: choosing an A race that truly motivates you, mapping B and C races that build skill without burnout, and matching training blocks to your goal’s specific demands. Whether you’re eyeing a first 50K or sharpening for a 100-mile bid, this conversation turns vague intentions into a practical plan.
We break down the three-phase progression that drives long-term growth—learning to train, learning to race, and learning to win—and show how each stage shapes your calendar. Addison explains how to dial intensity by race duration and athlete level, why mid-packers often race best with more zone two than they think, and how to layer in threshold and marathon-effort work at the right time. We also get real about volume and recovery: minimum viable hours for 50K, 100K, and 100 mile, the risk of copying pro training, and how to avoid the all-in gambles that lead to burnout.
Fueling myths get a major reality check. That 100 to 120 grams of carbs per hour? It only works if your pace and gut training support it. Most runners succeed at 60 to 90 grams per hour with fewer GI blow-ups. We walk through a simple framework to personalize hydration with a one-time sodium sweat test and easy at-home sweat rate tests, so your plan adapts from cold starts to hot, exposed climbs. Plus, actionable race routines, post-race debriefs, and candid insights from crewing at Javelina help you execute calmly when it counts.
If lotteries didn’t go your way—or life’s time budget got tight—you’ll hear how to pivot without losing momentum. Subscribe for more coaching-focused episodes, share this with a training partner who’s planning their season, and leave a quick review so we know which topics to dig into next. Your next PR starts with a better plan—let’s build it together.
Work with Addison, CTS Coach - @addisonsmith
Follow Addison on IG - @addison_smith16
Follow James on IG - @jameslauriello
Follow the Steep Stuff Podcast on IG - @steepstuff_pod
Use code steepstuffpod for 25% off your cart at UltimateDirection.com!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
I'm your host, James L'Oriello.
And today I'm so excited towelcome Addison Smith, CTS
coach, that's right, CarmichaelTraining Systems Coach, back on
the show.
Stoked to have Addison back on.
This is going to be our firstinstallment of a short trail,
long trail coaching mini-seriesthat we're going to be working
on.
(00:20):
I'm kind of all over the placein this episode, but the
overarching, kind of theoverarching theme of this one
specifically is going to be onlong-range planning, goals, and
race selection.
And then we're going to be doinga bunch of different
installments for differentsubtopics that we'll ask the
audience advice on for what theywant to hear as we kind of go,
maybe in a monthly or maybe likea quarterly fashion, which is
(00:41):
going to be a ton of fun.
You know, I think this is anabsolute necessary episode in
the sense where seasons startingto kind of change.
People are starting to end theirseasons and plan for 2026 and
beyond.
So, you know, we talk about, youknow, what it's like partnering
with a coach, figuring out whatthose plans are going to be,
(01:03):
setting those goals, how manyraces you should do, and just
all kinds of fun stuff.
And then I have 10 millionmiscellaneous questions that
Addison's kind enough to kind ofanswer and uh you know put his
perspective on, which is a lotof fun.
So hope you guys enjoy this one.
Haven't quite nailed down a nameyet for this series, uh, but
that'll be rolling out prettysoon once we start to figure
that out.
(01:23):
But hope you guys enjoy it.
Lots of good wisdom here fromAddison.
Guy is an absolute brain, and Ijust really appreciate his
perspective.
So without further ado, AddisonSmith.
(02:39):
Addison Smith, welcome back tothe Steep Stuff Podcast.
How's it going, man?
I'm good.
SPEAKER_00 (02:44):
Thanks for having me on again.
Looking forward to ourconversation.
SPEAKER_01 (02:46):
Yeah, dude.
I'm so happy you're able to dothis.
I we we still need to figure outa name, but like for the
audience uh and thoseinterested, like we're this is
like kind of a coaching corner.
I think that name might betaken.
So like this is uh James andAddison's coaching discussion as
of right now, and we'll we'llget a more formal name after
this episode.
SPEAKER_00 (03:02):
We'll make it more exciting as we can think of
something as we go.
SPEAKER_01 (03:05):
Yeah, yeah.
But no, dude, I appreciate youcoming back on.
I think there's a lot of goodopportunities to talk about
different coaching aspects,especially as the season starts
to shift now.
Um, I know for you and I, one ofthe big topics we wanted to kind
of hit at was like long-rangeplanning and talking to athletes
about that and just how to setgoals and and you know, uh if
you were looking for, you know,getting a coach, how to get even
(03:27):
get signed up to do that, aswell as like race selection.
Like I feel like there's a lotof like really good subtopics to
hit here.
Um what do you want to hitfirst?
What do you want to dive into?
SPEAKER_00 (03:36):
That is a great question.
I think you know, the best wayto start is just to think about,
you know, if I were an athletecoming to into the space for the
first time, there's so manydifferent awesome things to to
do as far as races and camps andexperiences and places to
travel.
And so kind of looking into thelens of someone who's coming
into the sport as a beginner,what are the things that they
(03:58):
should be thinking about whencreating that first year of you
know trail and ultra races thatthey put on the calendar?
Because I think that's a reallycritical thing that doesn't get
discussed very much.
I I think there's a lot of eyecandy out there as far as
opportunities to sign up.
And you could sign up for a raceevery weekend and have a great
time everywhere.
But, you know, identifying firstand foremost what are your goals
(04:22):
for this coming year to, youknow, in terms of those goals,
is there kind of a big goal thatkind of gets you the most
excited, you know, for thatseason?
And then kind of working yourway back from there.
Because I think some an issuethat some people run into when
they get into the sport is theywant to do everything all at
(04:44):
once.
And I think, as you and I know,having done this sport for a
while now, there really needs tobe a focus, not only from the
perspective of you know, timeavailability to train, funds to
get out to all of these coolplaces.
But I think third and mostimportantly, having a focus on
kind of the demands of what thatrace or course requires, whether
(05:06):
in training, in mentalpreparation, in fueling and
hydration, and and those thingsare very unique across all of
the different races and kind oftypes of uh experiences and
distances that we'll see here inin trail running.
SPEAKER_01 (05:20):
Interesting, dude.
I like this.
This is a good this is a goodlittle all right.
Let's let's dive in.
How would I pick a race?
Like what how how like if I'minterested in finding a race, I
mean there's so many differentoptions, so many opportunities.
If you were to take we'll breakthis up into three options,
maybe.
If I'm a beginner or if I'm ayou know a moderate, more a
moderate runner or maybe anelite runner, how would you how
(05:41):
would you push someone to kindof craft their season?
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
That is a great question.
I every every athlete that Iwork with, we kind of end the
season with talking about kindof next year, what their goals
look like.
And the first thing that I ask,and I think the most important
thing in kind of the process ofchoosing that initial goal is
what gets you excited?
Like what at the end of thenight are you like looking up
(06:06):
videos on YouTube about, youknow, what sort of thing like
sparks your excitement, whetherit's like a travel trip to an
awesome mountain range or youknow, something locally that
just really piques yourinterest.
Maybe you've run on these, youknow, sorts of trails in the
past or currently, and you wantto just piece together all of
these trails, you know, in arace scenario.
(06:26):
I think finding the one thingthat really gets you out of bed
in the morning to train,especially in the middle of the
year when likely you're gonna bedoing higher volume, you're
gonna be trying to makeeverything work with life and
with, you know, your running andtraining goals, you know, your
work obligations.
The this is the race that, youknow, no matter what happens, no
(06:48):
matter what um issues you runinto and sort of push and pull
on your life that you have, thisgoal is gonna keep you getting
up and getting out and gettingexcited for the training
process.
Because ultimately, you know,when you're choosing a race at
the end of our quote unquoteseason, obviously, you know,
with trail and ultra running,you could be racing an A race at
any point in the calendar.
But typically, this is where youknow the trail running calendar
(07:11):
starts to wind down.
At this point in the season,you're choosing something
likely, you know, four months tonine months out from now.
And that's gonna be your NorthStar to which everything else is
built.
And that thing needs to reallyfire you up, really motivate
you, and want you uh, you know,getting out the door for the
entirety of the training block,which will likely be, you know,
(07:34):
a couple of months, if not closeto a year.
SPEAKER_01 (07:36):
If I'm like a new, and I I think this is cool
because we if in this audience,like we have a really good mix
of uh both entry-level folks, wehave a lot of elite athletes,
and we have a lot of sub-eliteathletes that want to become
elite athletes that listen tothis.
For the new, like, I don't wantto call them newbies, but if
you're someone relatively new tothe sport, like what is if I'm
picking something like let's sayI want to run Canyons, and we're
(08:00):
what are we in now?
October, November.
If I want to run Canyons in thecanyon, let's say the Canyons
50K is gonna be my A race, andwe're gonna we're gonna kind of
build a build like for that.
How would you build something?
Like, is it gonna be a lot ofbase blocks?
We do a VO2 block, like howwould you put together kind of
like that train, like that, Iguess blocks of training for
(08:20):
someone pretty new to somethinglike that?
SPEAKER_00 (08:22):
Definitely, definitely.
Ultimately, I think it dependson the athlete's fitness level
coupled with kind of where theyare in the progression of their
trail and ultra running journey.
So, for example, if you're gonnahave an elite athlete doing
Canyons 50K, that's roughlygonna take them, you know, on
the hours of you know, three,three to four hours, roughly
(08:45):
speaking.
So that's you know, comparableto you know, steady state
intensity, close to marathonintensity.
And that's the kind of trainingthat we're gonna want them to be
doing as close to the race aspossible, if that's their A
race.
And so, in terms of kind ofwinding things back between now
and that race, we're gonna betouching on different intensity
(09:06):
systems in the kind ofintermediate periods between now
and then before we get into kindof the meat of the most specific
type of training, which is, youknow, you could call it a
variety of things.
You could call it LT1, you couldcall it zone three training, you
could call it, you know, theclosest, you know, equivalent in
ultra and trail running tomarathon effort.
(09:28):
That's the kind of sweet spotintensity that we want to be
focusing on because that's whatyou're gonna be doing on race
day for the most part.
Now, if you're more of abeginner athlete, maybe a middle
or back of the packer, thenthat's gonna look more like zone
two on race day because just thecapacity to run at a certain
intensity and the total time tocomplete that race is a little
(09:50):
bit different.
And so, in that scenario, thenyou're gonna be doing a lot more
zone two, you know, long daysout in the trails.
And then maybe, you know, inMarch, for example, you're gonna
be doing more of that zone threework.
Whereas, you know, for an eliteathlete, likely, you know,
you're gonna be building a bigbase in like December, January,
(10:11):
February, then probably addingin some threshold after that.
And then we're gonna be goinginto kind of that specific
period where you're doing thatzone three marathon effort
intensity.
And so I think within thecontext of any of these races
that we're doing, whether ahundred-mile race or you're
doing a Cirque series race,identifying how long that race
(10:31):
is gonna take you is going toreally dictate what sort of
training you're gonna be doingin the lead up to that race and
kind of, you know, at least inCTS's training philosophy, we
want to be touching on all ofthe different intensity systems,
but we want to do it in astructured way to where you're
doing the most specific thingtraining-wise to the intensity
that you're gonna beexperiencing on race day.
(10:53):
And so the puzzle pieces aregonna match a little bit
differently depending on thatrace duration and the uh fitness
level of that athlete leading upto that race.
So interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (11:04):
All right, I want to pivot a little bit.
So for let's say, so I just hadAdrian McDonald on yesterday,
and he I one of the things Ireally appreciate about Adrian
is he mixes it up, he does a lotof short trail stuff, and then
he'll pick like one, maybe twolonger short or longer trail uh
races a year, maybe it'd beLeadville, Western State, two
TMB, whatever.
Um, and I I like how differentathletes kind of throw those
(11:24):
things in there and kind of mixit up with both.
If you were to offer advice forlet me we could start with the
beginner all the way up to theintermediate to the elite, dude.
What is like an appropriateamount of races like people
should be doing a year?
I and I'll I'll throw this oneout there.
Like my friend Lemmy Remy LaRue,who's been on the podcast a
bunch of times, dude.
I think he raced like 25 timesthis year.
Now, short trail, uh, you know,and I feel like he's only gotten
(11:46):
fitter and better.
Um, but like, and then I'll seepeople do like a bunch of
hundred miles per year, andtheir body can like Rachel
Entrigan and stuff like that.
Obviously, these are elite ofthe elite athletes, but how do
people like durability's got tobe a massive thing as well?
So, how would you what would yourecommend as far as athletes
kind of picking the A races onthe calendar and then the B and
C races to kind of fill it in?
SPEAKER_00 (12:08):
Definitely, definitely.
When you asked that question, mymind immediately went to a
continuing ed discussion that wehad as a group a few years ago.
Um, Athletics Canada put outthis really, really awesome
document.
And, you know, if you'relistening and you're curious at
all, go and check it out.
Essentially, what they wereoutlining is, you know, in
Canada, because you know,they're a little bit smaller of
(12:30):
a country than the US, and thecollegiate system isn't
necessarily used as aspringboard as much as it is in
a lot of sports in um kind ofthe team USA, you know, youth
athletes going up into beingOlympic ready athletes.
They outlined, you know, whatare the fundamental goals in
terms of long-range athletedevelopment in the different
(12:52):
parts of, you know, an athlete'sdevelopment as they go all the
way from like nine years old upto competing at their best, you
know, between 25 and 30.
And in that, I think there's alot of cool information that we
can take when looking at, youknow, any sort of beginner,
intermediate, or elite athleteand get insights into what are
the goals that we're trying toachieve in a given season within
(13:15):
the context of someone'sathletic career.
Because even though you know abeginner athlete may not see
themselves as like, this is mycareer, certainly they want to
progress as they go along intheir ultra running or trail
journey and doing it in a way towhere they're picking up the
right kind of learnings alongthe way, whether in training or
(13:36):
in racing, should help informand help them grow into, you
know, the best version ofthemselves in whatever capacity
that is, you know, in the primeof their career, so to speak, or
when they've just accumulated afew years and they're ready to,
you know, perform at theirabsolute best.
So in that document, there's alot of conversations about, you
know, what are the goals withinthese different like periods of
(14:00):
um an athlete's, you know,lifespan.
And so the main kind of pointswithin that is, you know,
there's there's a period of timewhen you're learning to train.
This is when you're a beginner,you've just started endurance
training, or you've just startedtraining for specific types of
trail or ultar runs.
And so in this learning to trainprocess, the goal isn't to go
(14:21):
out and do a bunch of races, thegoal is to kind of hone in on
understanding how to train well,you know, the the ebbs and flows
of your body's fatigue andrecovery mechanisms as we go
about kind of training fordifferent blocks.
And that can take, you know,anywhere from like one to two
years.
Obviously, for adults that havesome sort of endurance
(14:42):
background, maybe just notspecifically in the trail and
ultrarunning realm, you know,that's going to be a lot shorter
of a process.
But even for an elite athletethat I'm working with, she's
come from a high school trackbackground, but it was more
sprint-focused, a collegiate,highly competitive basketball
background.
And then she's jumped into thetrails.
(15:02):
And so, yes, she has trainedmany, many years in the past,
but the in terms of likeunderstanding her physiology,
when to push, when to pull backin an endurance context is
relatively new.
And so, kind of this past year,we were really focusing on
dialing in her understandingwhat sort of you know things
(15:23):
should she be thinking about intraining to make sure we're not
overdoing things, but alsohitting the right intensities on
given training days for athreshold block or a steady
state block or a VO2 max block.
And after kind of that period oftime, we're kind of jumping into
the next phase, which is umlearning to race.
And so for her, she she lovesthe 100K 50 mile distance.
(15:44):
Um, she did CCC this pastsummer.
It went fairly well, but youknow, there were still some
things that we're tinkering withbefore we feel like she's ready
to like give her absolute best,her physiological best
performance on a day becauseshe's dialed in her nutrition,
she's dialed in her RPE on theday, she knows, you know, how to
manage herself on an earlydownhill, for example, or an
(16:06):
early climb.
And so that's that next period.
And I'll kind of just talk aboutkind of the three phases.
They break it down the AthleticsCanada into a couple more
phases, but you know, just forthis audience to kind of
understand where I'm comingfrom, it's really just three
main phases.
And the second phase is thelearning to compete.
And in this phase, our focus ison getting reps in race
(16:28):
scenarios.
And so it's not like we have abunch of A races on the
calendar.
We have a bunch of B and C raceswhere we're just going out and
we're practicing the things thatwe've talked about in long runs.
We've done the training and sheknows how to measure her body
out in training.
But now it's time to learn whento go with a move in a race,
when to hold back, you know, indifferent scenarios of altitude,
(16:51):
cold weather, hot weather, youknow, what should she be
adjusting fueling andhydration-wise, and what sort of
gear is necessary for thosedifferent environmental
conditions that she might findherself in.
And so, likely my guess is thisis gonna be, you know, about a
year process of, you know,throwing her into a bunch of
different race scenarios, youknow, competitive fields where
(17:13):
it's not like she's just gonnawalk away and kind of do her own
thing in the front, but also sheshe's not way behind a group and
you know, not feeling like she'skind of in the thick of it.
Because for her, wanting toeventually, you know, take on
some sponsorships, althoughthat's not like her main goal,
but like that would be a productof her continuing to develop and
she is competitive.
(17:34):
Um, we want to get her to aplace where she's super
comfortable at CCC or at anothermajor race in the context of
having all of these experiencesthat she's you know picked up on
the in the past year of racing alot more to then give it her
best and maximize theperformance, which is kind of
that last phase of learning towin.
(17:55):
And so that can look like a lotof different things.
For an age group, or that's justmaybe maximizing their ability
and kind of beating the peoplein their age bracket to go and
get a spot at UTMB, for example,at a Kodiak.
Or that could be, you know,simply um, you know, being
behind cutoffs for years andyears and years, but then going
to that big race like Leadvilleafter finishing a couple 50K's,
(18:18):
50 miles, 100Ks, knowing thatlike they have the tools to
squeak by and get that 30, 29,59 finish at Leadville, for
example.
And so I think within talkingabout these three different
phases, identifying, you know,where you are within kind of
your own journey with trailerultra running will really inform
(18:39):
what sort of races or how manyraces you should be doing.
Because I think even forsomeone, you know, that's doing
a Cirque series race, you havethe opportunity in the lead up
to maybe an A race within thatCirque series to practice some
really technical downhills ifthat's a struggle of yours in a
variety of races where you knowmaybe you're not at your peak
fitness, but we're just gonnadrill that with a bunch of
(19:02):
people you can follow and kindof push your comfortability
within a race context to reallyimprove that.
So when you get to that A race,there's no question that you can
bomb that downhill with whereveryou're competing in that race,
if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01 (19:15):
Totally, dude.
That's interesting.
There's so many different thingsI can like riff off on this.
First thing I want to get to,because this is something I
think I need help with andsomething I will be working on
this year a ton, is just likethe amount of races you do in
the sense of like these B and Craces, just kind of lur kind of
learning how to race.
Because I like I only raced,granted, I went through a period
of injury this year, but I onlyraced twice.
(19:36):
And I felt like when I lined upwhen did I I what was I at?
Uh what was it?
Um go Grand Targy.
Dude, I had so much race rust, Itotally forgot how to do so many
different things that like youknow, even from like breakfast
in the morning for certainthings and you know, different
hydration solutions, all kindsof stuff.
And it's I I feel like it's suchan important thing to practice
(19:57):
because it's a skill in its ownright.
Like racing is its ownindividual skill.
Totally.
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
Yeah.
I have a high school athletethat is a junior in high school,
but we've only started workingtogether as she's like wanted to
get more competitive and lookinto the idea of, you know,
racing collegiately at a fairlycompetitive program.
We've really drilled theroutine, you know, from
lunchtime at school to like apre-race snack to what she's
(20:23):
doing in the warm-up.
And I want it to be as likeeasily accessible to her
mentally, to where that's notsomething we're thinking about
or worried about.
We can focus on all of the otherthings that might potentially
make her nervous.
But in terms of the routine,nothing changes.
Like if the start time is anhour earlier, then we're moving
this entire schedule of herroutine back an hour and she's
(20:46):
gonna do the exact same thing.
And I think that's that's areally cool part of like the
learning to race um portion.
It's not just like the skillsthat you're picking up within
the race.
And of course, like we talkabout those things.
I think it reflection post-raceis a really important kind of
part of that sphere of someone'scareer, is just understanding,
(21:07):
you know, the things that maybethey could have done
differently, but also, you know,reflecting on the things that
went really well and reinforcingthose things, but also the
routine before and afterwards tomake it as an anxiety-free
process as possible.
Because, you know, racing whenyou really care about it is
gonna have a lot of anxietyalready.
So you want to eliminate all ofthe noise as much as you can
(21:28):
before and afterwards.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:29):
I feel like we could do all right, we'll we'll save
that for a different for adifferent podcast because I feel
like we could do an entire oneon race day just talking about
like appropriation.
All right, what else do you wantto get to on?
I feel like so.
We got to race selection,picking races, kind of building
out a schedule or having an ideaof building out a schedule.
What else do you think we can wecan dive into for this?
SPEAKER_00 (21:50):
I think for the for the everyman, the non-elite who
you know has the job and afamily and friends and other
time commitments, a really keycomponent of choosing their A
race, but also their seasonschedule is just their time
availability to train.
Because I think a lot ofathletes, when they get done
(22:11):
with the season, especially whenit goes well, their eyes get
super wide, they get superstoked about all of these other
potential things that they cando.
You know, they feel, you know,on top of the world, their
confidence is at an all-timehigh.
And so it's easy to get greedywith either the races that you
choose or the amount of racesthat you choose, even when you
might think in the back of yourmind, like, I don't know if I
(22:33):
have the time to train for that.
If there's any thought that,like, oh, maybe I shouldn't, you
know, choose this race becauseit's gonna be really challenging
to get in the time to train,then I think you should spend
about a week and talk to first,talk to your significant other
if you have one.
You know, think about thepotential busy periods of work
and try to minimize, you know,choosing races within that
(22:55):
period of time.
Because we want to make surethat there's no major roadblocks
as far as time availability,especially right before a race,
to potentially hinder youravailability opportunity to
train, but also potentially puta dent in your confidence
because you're frustrated withjust the whole scenario.
It's like, I signed up for thisrace, I really wanted to do it,
and now I don't have the time totrain for it.
(23:16):
And then it's just a downwardspiral spiral of frustration and
potentially losing fitness.
And so, in terms of kind of aminimum range to train for
certain races, if you don't havesix hours to train for an ultra
at 50K, 50 mile, anythingconsistently, you know, for four
to six weeks in the lead up inthe last eight weeks of the
(23:37):
race, then I would recommendthat you choose shorter races
than ultras for that time being.
Because I think as a minimum for50K's and 50 mile races, six
hours of training, running,biking, whatever endurance
activity you can for that needsto happen.
And I think we can we can youknow push that up a little bit
for the 100K, roughly ninehours.
(23:58):
If you can't train nine hoursfor three to six weeks um in
kind of your biggest volumeblock leading up to the race,
then I would say choose a 50K.
And same goes for the 100 mile.
Between 10 to 12 hours, roughly,would be kind of the minimum
amount of time to train um forfour to six weeks leading up to
that hundred mile.
And if you can't get that done,then I'd say save it for another
(24:20):
year because it's just gonnalead to anxiousness,
frustration, and hopefully not,but you know, not a lot of
success on race day.
And so I think that's a realconversation that needs to be
had while you're super excited,all of the registration, you
know, opportunities are open.
You can throw your hat in thelotteries.
This is the time to really checkyourself a little bit and just
(24:41):
give yourself uh an opportunityto think about what actually I
can do leading up to this race.
Because the worst thing is tolike throw a race away and and
and kind of push yourregistration away, um, you know,
leading up to that race afteryou put in so much training and
maybe you just don't have thattime leading up to the race.
SPEAKER_01 (24:58):
That's gonna be an interesting, it's gotta be a
difficult conversation for youas a coach to have too.
To be obviously, there's a lotof real conversations that go
into being a coach.
It's yeah, you're part coach,part uh therapist in a lot of
ways, you know, when it comes tothis stuff.
But like, so let's say I come toyou and say Addison, I'm signing
up for I don't know, let's sayI'm gonna run the Gorge 100k,
(25:20):
right, in February or March.
Race day comes, I don't have thebest day, but I didn't put in
the work.
It's like, how do you that's adifficult conversation to have
if you're not putting that timein?
Do you do you have thatconversation up front with your
athletes?
Like this is gonna require Xamount of time, or is it more so
just kind of like I know myrelationship with my coach, it's
like, okay, for me, it's likewhatever it takes, but I'm a
(25:40):
different type of person.
Yeah, I have different goals.
But for your average athlete,how is that with these
conversations?
SPEAKER_00 (25:47):
Yeah, it's tough because I want to be your
biggest supporter andcheerleader, but I also have to
be a little bit of your likebiggest enemy, pulling yourself
away, pulling you away from likeyour hopes and dreams if it's
not realistic for the time.
That's not to say you can't dothose things.
That's not to say that, youknow, next year we can't tackle
this goal.
(26:08):
But I also want to set you upfor success because I think
every, you know, time that anathlete comes in and wants to
really attack a goal, but youknow, it turns out they don't
have a lot of time for it,that's a really frustrating
conversation to have because,you know, they really want this
thing, but it's just not workingout.
What I always say is, you know,every person has seasons of life
where they're, you know,available to train, they're
(26:30):
available to really tackle theirbig goals.
But in kind of the grand schemeof things, that may not be this
year.
And that's not to say we can'thave you know success growing in
your kind of understanding of,you know, training, we can't get
fitter.
Um, but maybe you just can'ttrain for 100 this year.
And that's okay.
(26:50):
We can learn a lot of thingsdoing a 50-mile race.
We can dial in your nutrition,you know, in training still.
Or, you know, if that race isstill gonna go down, then it's
just having an honestconversation about, you know,
you may not be at your best, butlet's figure out ways to ensure
that you can go as far as youcan.
And when things hit the fan,because likely they will if
(27:12):
you're under trained for a race,let's make sure that we know all
the things that we can do totriage that situation.
You know, if you're gonna reallystart to, you know, feel your
quads because we haven't time,haven't had time to get out in
the mountain trails or justtrain in general, then what are
the things that we can do?
One, obviously we can slow down.
Two, we can control our fueling.
(27:33):
We can make sure we're asprepared as we can be with, you
know, our our race gear and youknow, our our foot care scenario
if our feet kind of turn bad.
Um, and so you're givingyourself every chance to be
successful, but sometimes it'sjust off the table and we just
have to, you know, call it awash and and get back to it and
and try to build positives inanother way.
(27:55):
And and I think, you know, I dohave athletes that are kind of
in that cycle right now, whetherit's, you know, an injury
recovery cycle or it's just, youknow, they're swamped at work
right now.
And I think for me as a coach,the biggest thing I can do is
show that I'm still there forthem, I'm still supporting them,
and we're finding creative waysto still make this an enjoyable
process amid you know afrustrating time where it's
(28:17):
like, I just can't do the thingsI want to do.
Yeah, I can't train for this Arace.
I can't build out a long-rangeplan because I'm sitting here
injured.
And it's like, well, but we cando these things.
And so let's try to work onthese things so that we have
some momentum going forward onceyou're ready and available to
train.
SPEAKER_01 (28:32):
Interesting.
I think it's I mean, that's theonly thing you can do.
It makes the the you know, beinga partner in it and just is uh
kind of the best thing possible.
I want to pivot really quick.
You said for 100 miles, 12 hoursor somewhere in that range.
Dude, I I mean there's dudes nowobviously at the top of the
sport doing like like crazyvolume.
(28:52):
I feel like we're back in thisperiod now of crazy volume, but
also nutrition and fueling haslike really caught up in a lot
of ways technology-wise.
What do what do you see this as?
Is like what what are yourthoughts on that?
I know this is kind of out ofleft field, but I've just I
don't know.
I now that I have you in frontof me, I feel like this is an
interesting thing to talk about.
SPEAKER_00 (29:09):
No, no, this is this is a great question.
I'll I'll tackle the fuelingquestion first.
Um, there certainly is uhpotential benefits for elite
athletes to go, you know, 100,120 grams of carbs an hour, if,
and this is a big if, if theypractice it in training, if
they've practiced it in B races,and it's something that is not a
(29:33):
question of whether theirstomach can handle it or not.
If you're going from you knowdoing a 50K to a 100-mile race
and you're gonna try to fuel 120grams of carbs an hour, I think
that's a bad strategy.
Because in reality, for athletesthat aren't elite, you can get
away with doing you know 60grams to 90 grams of carbs an
(29:53):
hour without an issue, and anddoing more than that has the
potential detriment a lot.
More than there is potential forbenefit because your GI system
is going to struggle to processall of that because you're
running at a lower intensity towhere, you know, at that
intensity you're burning morefat than the pro that can run
that same race at a higherintensity and burn more carbs.
(30:16):
And so it's not a one-to-one fora person who's a middle of a
back-to-tacker running a racewith, you know, comparing that
to an elite athlete who's, youknow, running at threshold
intensity for a lot of theseclimbs and can handle, you know,
that many carbs.
And so I think, you know, withthe feed is awesome, but
something that I get a littlebit worried about when I see
(30:38):
their marketing is they don'ttalk about the fact that a lot
of, you know, middle of thepackers don't need that many
carbs because obviously, youknow, they want them to buy a
few more products and they wantthem to really go out there and
and try as many carbs as theycan.
But that's not necessarily goingto be a net benefit for those
people.
And I think putting it intocontext of, you know, energy
(31:00):
systems are different for eliteathletes and for middle-the-pack
athletes at the same exact race.
Um, I think is really importantto just give them that context
and know that they don't have todo the exact same thing that the
pros are doing.
SPEAKER_01 (31:13):
I love that.
Dude, and that's the thing, it'ssuch a catchy thing now to uh
it's become so like in thezeitgeist to do 100, 120 grams
per you know, per hour ofcarbohydrates.
Yeah, I don't know.
I think it's a recipe fordisaster.
Uh one more thing is on thevolume.
I people doing this crazyvolume.
Uh like like I said, we're atthat point now where it seems
like this is kind of circledback in the sport again.
(31:35):
It's interesting, man, even onthe short trail side.
Like I talk to people that run,like Andy Wacker puts up stupid
numbers sometimes, but then I'llsee Alexa Aragon.
Her and I were on the podcasttalking, I think she runs like
30 miles a week.
Um and I'm like, and but alsobikes and stuff like that.
A lot of dichotomy there.
What do you think of from avolume perspective?
SPEAKER_00 (31:54):
Yeah, I think it really depends on the types of
races that these athletes aredoing and their training history
because I think you know,someone like Katie Scheid can
handle a ton, a ton of volume.
One, because they're aprofessional athlete and they
can sleep, you know, 10 to 12hours a night.
You know, they have a a sportsdietitian, um, they have, you
(32:15):
know, Jason Coop working withthem and making sure they're not
overdoing things.
They're they're they're checkingtheir heart rate variability on
a regular basis to make surethat they're on the right side
of like what is sustainable andwhat isn't sustainable.
Um, and they're doing 100 mileraces.
And so all of those things leadto Katie Scheid doing a ton of
volume.
That's not to say that someone,you know, that's doing 100 miles
(32:38):
needs to do, you know, average18 to 24 hours a week.
You can get away with doing 13,14, 15, especially when you're a
younger athlete and you don'thave that amount of volume
behind you.
Because I think regardless ofhow good that person is, an
important thing as a coach is tounderstand the context of which
their training history leadsinto what you should be
(33:00):
prescribing.
Because we don't want to makeany massive jumps in volume if
that's gonna lead to injury orburnout.
Because at the end of the day,you know, at least for me as a
coach, I would rather seeconstant progression, not only
in a training, you know, spacefor total volume, but also
constant progression from aresults perspective rather than
(33:21):
a swing for the fences and it'sa 50-50 whether they totally
crush a race or they getinjured, if that makes sense.
And kind of on the flip side,for a lot of the short trail
runners, um, there's a lot ofpapers that come out that, you
know, support the fact that, youknow, having a lot of zone two
training is definitely stillgonna benefit someone who races
for, you know, an hour to twohours, for example.
(33:42):
Um, but certainly it needs tocome in the context of having a
variety of specificity mixed in,and that often means a lot more
intensity.
And when you come into conflictis where you have too much
intensity while you're alsodoing too much volume.
And so I think it's really thecoach's job to figure out, you
know, when are we really rampingup the intensity?
(34:02):
And then, you know, subsequentlyalso during that time reducing
the total volume so that we'rekeeping it a sustainable
process.
And so I do think, you know, inthose low intensity periods, we
can really ramp up the volume,and you can have people
training, you know, 15, 17, 18hours a week, even though
they're doing, you know, shorttrail type, you know, races.
(34:24):
But that needs to be, you know,within the general structure,
knowing that this race is goingto be run at a very high
intensity, high heart rate, um,high energy costs, and that also
needs to be a major part of theplan.
Interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (34:37):
I I've got one more question kind of out of left
field.
This is a Katie Scheid question.
I just find it so interesting.
Is she just an outlier then?
Because you see a lot of peoplethat are hundred miles, like
very specific athletes, and thenshe comes down and does series
and all and gets on the programand has an insane race.
Is that just pulling?
I mean, I from what I understandfrom training as well, no like
(34:59):
we're doing 90% most of the samestuff with that 10% that's a
little bit different.
Yeah, is that just pulling thoselevers in that training block
for her to get I don't know, Imean, you know Coop better than
I do, but like uh pulling someof those levers in that training
block to get her specificallyfit for something like that.
Like, how like what is she doingfor something like that?
SPEAKER_00 (35:18):
Yeah, so one of the cool things about being, you
know, a neerobic monster, so tospeak, is that your ability to
recover is just through the roofif you're doing it right and not
overtraining.
And so, you know, transitioningover to doing VO2max work, you
should have a higher capacity torecover from you know a bunch of
(35:39):
sessions in a row compared tosomeone who, you know, may not
have as much volume in theirsystem over the period of years
that they've trained.
I do know that, you know, Katiedoes do schemo races, she still
does VO2 max work, and also thismight sound like a CTS fanboy
answer, but she is also likevery clearly at the tip of the
(36:00):
spear performance-wise, youknow, in physiology-wise.
And so, yes, like her focus ison 100k, 100 mile races, but
she's that good to where itreally doesn't matter.
Like for Jim, for example, Jim'sanother good buddy, it doesn't
matter, he's just that muchbetter than everyone right now.
Um, and so I think that's a lotof it.
(36:21):
Uh, she was also doing a lot ofVO2 Max work leading up to that
race.
Um, you know, it wasn'tnecessarily an A race, but it
was also like a focus oftraining.
Um, and so I think all of thosethings lead to that performance.
Whereas, you know, if she was,you know, one of the top ladies
in the sport and not the toplady in the sport, her and
Courtney, um, then I would saythat, you know, it's not gonna
(36:46):
look that flashy when she comesback down to to 50k distance.
But I do think, you know,because she does high volume and
she's been doing it really wellum for years, that lends itself
to then transitioning andgetting some turnover and um
really hitting on that VO2 maxwell and recovering quickly from
it.
SPEAKER_01 (37:03):
So interesting.
Yeah, dude, what what aperformance.
I mean, I know we're totally abunch of months late on that,
but yeah.
Um, all right, I want to shiftgears one more time.
I want to get to so what aboutpicking uh there's a lot of
flashy stuff out there.
I see um, and some stuff reallyworks.
Like for me, I met with you, Idid a sweat test at CTS, and it
changed a lot for me as far asmy hydration went.
(37:25):
Um, I see a lot of like thesweat monitors people use.
I see a lot, there's a lot offlashy stuff on the market right
now.
What would you recommend?
Do you recommend for athletes toget sweat tests and stuff like
that, especially as they kind ofshift periods in their season uh
or to even coming into theoff-season so they can
appropriately dial in theirnutrition and hydration?
SPEAKER_00 (37:43):
I do think that's a legitimate tool.
There's a there's a lot ofdifferent things that you can do
in the off-season when you knowtraining's not that you know
high volume-wise, and and youhave the kind of ability to take
a step back and look at thingsfrom a broader lens.
Um, the nice thing about sweattesting is it gives you a number
that doesn't change.
(38:04):
It's like a one-time test.
You don't need to go in and doit again.
And you're coupling, so for thepeople that don't know what
we're talking about, this is aprecision hydration sodium sweat
test, which what it tests, thereyou go, showing the precision
bottle.
Not sponsored, should be.
Yeah.
Um, it's a test that that showshow salty your sweat is.
(38:25):
And so that is an importantmetric for your hydration plan
going into any race, butspecifically, you know, for
ultras or for the athlete likeJames, who is an especially high
sweater and is a fairly saltysweater.
And so it it also lends itselfto people that are doing shorter
races like the Cirque series aswell.
Um, but that test should also becoupled with just going out and
(38:49):
and getting a sweat rate test,which you can do at home.
It's just weighing yourselfbefore and after you go for a
run.
I recommend an hour just becauseit's easy for the math.
And so you have an idea of youknow how salty your sweat is per
liter of sweat loss, and thenyou're gonna figure out how many
liters you sweat to get ageneral idea of, okay, you know,
for X amount of hours racing,this is what my strategy is, not
(39:12):
only from the sodiumperspective, how much sodium I
should be taking in per hour,depending on the environmental
conditions you find yourself in,but as well as how much should I
be drinking in thoseenvironmental conditions,
because we want to make surethat, you know, you're not
losing too much body weight andyou're going into a dehydration,
dehydrated state, you know, overthe course of that race.
(39:33):
And the nice thing is, is you'donly have to do that precision
sweat test once, and then it'sjust dialing in and doing a
couple of those sweat rate testsover the course of a couple
different environmentalconditions, you know, when it's
really cold out, maybe 40degrees at the start of
Leadville, for example, all theway to going to Twin Lakes, and
maybe it's 75 and sunny at10,000 feet, and you're gonna
(39:57):
your sweat rate's gonna bedrastically different, maybe you
know, two or three folddifference compared to those
different times of the day.
And that'll then help informthen what do you do on the salt
front when you're sweating abunch or when you're sweating
just a little bit.
Interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (40:12):
Okay, all right.
Yeah, I I mean I highlyrecommend it.
I think it's a great aspect ifyou're looking.
I mean, I don't know, and thiswas kind of going into the topic
of like, all right, nowoff-season stuff and quote
unquote off-season stuff, youcan take more swings and try and
figure more stuff out.
Um, like, I don't know, I'vealways heard like don't mess
with your diet too much whenyou're you know competing and
stuff like that.
(40:32):
This is a time to kind of dothat.
Um same with the hydration, kindof getting that dialed in and
figuring out.
So there's all kinds of goodstuff there.
SPEAKER_00 (40:40):
Totally, totally.
Um the one thing I would say,kind of in addition to all of
the things we've talked about,is you know, if you don't get
into a lottery, that's not tosay that you know you can't find
an A race that is awesome.
There are so many races on UltraSign Up that I would highly
recommend you you check out.
There's tons of YouTube clipsfor a variety of races.
And so for you know, this periodof time when we're going into
(41:03):
the lottery season, I know it'skind of this exciting time, but
it can also can be a veryfrustrating time if you've
entered Western States for the10th time, for example, and
you're still you have a billiontickets and you still can't get
in.
There are so many cool races outthere, and there's there's so
many kind people on on Instagramor probably in your running
community that have tried avariety of races.
(41:24):
And so I think, you know, nomatter what race you set
yourself up to do, that A race,like we've talked about, if it
doesn't come through and forwhatever reason, you know, you
find that that's just a busytime in life, or you just can't
get into it because it's youknow really hard to get into,
pivoting and finding anotherrace within four weeks of that
race is is gonna be very likely.
(41:45):
And there's a variety of awesomerace companies that'll take care
of you out there.
And so I I think, you know, aword of uh of caution for
everyone that just wants to bereally frustrated in December
and January, that there's a lotof other opportunities out there
and pivoting isn't too hard todo.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:01):
Is that the time you guys start to see more like
busyness uh like around kind ofthat time frame when people get
into races and then they ohshit, I need a coach?
Like, is that is that when youguys start to like people start
to buckle down kind of thing?
SPEAKER_00 (42:14):
That is exactly our busy busy season, yes.
Um we tell everyone, you know,all of our coaches to open up
their availability, get ready totake on some athletes.
And I think for a lot of them,if they have a full athlete
roster, um, it's it's a toughdecision because it's like they
know that this come around thistime, there's a lot of people
that are going to be takingbreaks from training.
(42:34):
Um, and so it's there's ebbs andflows in terms of you know, the
the coach's athlete roster, andand people typically tend to
take on a lot more athletes, youknow, come January, just because
that's that time where a lot ofpeople just got into the lottery
and, like you said, arepanicking a little bit because
now it's real.
You know, they put in a bunch oftickets over and over and over.
It's like, oh my gosh, now Iactually got in and let's do
(42:56):
this right.
So definitely.
If you're interested incoaching, feel free to reach out
and we're happy to help you outhere at CTS.
Sweet.
SPEAKER_01 (43:02):
Yeah, we'll definitely, I mean, it'll be in
the plug for whoever wants toget in contact.
We'll we'll put you in the asthe show notes.
Uh, one last thing.
I know you just got back from umuh Havelina.
How was that?
SPEAKER_00 (43:12):
Havelina was awesome, man.
So this was my third time goingout.
We've crewed specifically ourCTS athletes four years now.
And I would say this was themost rewarding and awesome
experience for me as a coach andjust someone who helps organize
the crewing, just because it wasso cool to see so many people
kind of recognize that A goal,like we talked about.
(43:34):
This is, you know, Javelina isone of the end of season races,
and and it's a great opportunityto put a bookend on, you know, a
big season that has been plannedsince January.
And um we were you know thrilledto have 17 of our 21 athletes
finish, which is 81% and and anddefinitely a lot higher than the
average at Javelina.
(43:54):
We had, you know, being a partof Will Murray's crew was was
pretty awesome, just how calm,cool, and collected he executed
that race.
Um, but really for me, it's likestaying up at at midnight and
and crewing the middle of thePackers is the most rewarding
because you know, you really seeyou know a lot of people just
gutting it out and and andputting their you know dreams
(44:17):
and goals, you know, to work outthere and having the opportunity
to fix some feed or hand anextra bottle to someone, it just
means the world to them.
And you know, seeing theircrews, you know, just be at ease
because there's a couple otherpeople to lend a hand, I think
is really special.
And if you haven't been out toJavelina, it's such a cool race
for a variety of reasons.
One being that it's you know,it's a party in the desert, but
(44:39):
for you know, uh an athletewho's relatively new to ultra
running, it's a great place toget your crew involved for the
first time because it's theeasiest crew setup.
You're just hanging out atJavelina headquarters the whole
time, likely in the tent, youknow, just hanging out, maybe
dancing a little bit, dressingup in a costume and and watching
your athletes come through everycouple hours.
So highly recommend.
And it was a definitely a greattime for for us CTS coaches and
(45:02):
athletes.
SPEAKER_01 (45:03):
Did you did you dress up?
Did you did you wear a costume?
SPEAKER_00 (45:07):
I I was a little bit lame this year.
I had a costume last year.
SPEAKER_01 (45:10):
These are the questions the audience wants to
know, dude.
SPEAKER_00 (45:12):
Dude, I brought a costume and I was stoked about
it, but I like I was go, go, gothe entire day.
I didn't even like have a chanceto think about putting on my
costume until it was 2 a.m.
And it's like, well, dang, nowno one's gonna see my costume,
anyways.
SPEAKER_01 (45:25):
That's awesome.
Well, yeah, Addison, dude, thankyou so much for coming on.
I think we we covered a lot ofreally good stuff.
Um, yeah, I can't wait to startpro like game planning for the
next one.
I feel like there's a lot ofgood coaching conversations that
we can have, uh, especially forathletes um, you know,
interested in the sporting,wanting to learn more.
And and yeah, I think it'sthere's all kinds of good stuff
there.
So appreciate you.
SPEAKER_00 (45:45):
Yeah, definitely, man.
I had a great time and lookingforward to the next ones.
Thanks, dude.
SPEAKER_01 (45:50):
What'd you guys think?
Oh man, I feel like we we got alot of good stuff in there, lots
of nuggets of wisdom fromAddison and stoked to continue
to do more of these.
Uh, like I said, I'm gonna putout uh some feelers to the
audience.
And if you guys happen to haveany things you want to learn
about uh on the coaching end orany subtopics that you find
really interesting that you wantus to talk about in a future
(46:11):
episode, please reach out.
Uh send me a DM on Instagram orAddison and uh or a message in
any way.
Like I said, there's a bunch ofdifferent ways to reach out to
us.
But yeah, reach out, let us knowwhat you guys are thinking and
what you want to hear about, anduh, we'll be sure to bring those
topics up on a future episode aswe continue to kind of figure
out this mini-series uh thatwe're gonna be working on.
(46:31):
So, guys, the best way you couldsupport Addison two different
ways first is give him a followon Instagram.
You can find him at Addisonunderscore Smith16.
It's gonna be linked in the shownotes.
On top of that, if you'reinterested in a coach right now
or looking for coaching, Addisonis a coach at Carmichael
Training Systems in ColoradoSprings.
That's right, CTS.
On his Instagram bio, you canfind him at TrainRight Coaches
(46:52):
Addison Smith.
Uh, there's gonna be a link tofollow for um if you guys think
he would be a good fit for you.
There's a link to follow to uhtalk to him and uh do some
initial uh yeah, some someinitial feeling out to uh see if
that would be a good fit.
So yeah, reach out to Addisonfor coaching and all good stuff
there.
Um it's also gonna be linked inthe show notes.
(47:13):
So if uh that's a good spot, youguys can figure it out too.
Um yeah, the best way you couldsupport the podcast is if you
enjoyed this episode and others,give us a five-star rating and
review on Apple, Spotify,YouTube, or wherever you consume
your pods.
Um video episodes now on Spotifyand YouTube, including this one.
And very last but not least, uhyou could support us also
through our brand partner,Ultimate Direction.
(47:36):
If you head on over toultimatedirection.com, type in
code SteepstuffPod, one wordSteepstuff Pod, it's gonna get
you 25% off your cart.
So, guys, thanks so much fortuning in.
All good stuff.
I've got a great episode thatI'm so excited to do uh with
Abigail Lock that's gonna becoming out tomorrow.
So lots of good stuff down thepipeline and uh much appreciate
it, but I'm gonna go back to thesame way.
Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
I'm your host, James L'Oriello.
And today I'm so excited towelcome Addison Smith, CTS
coach, that's right, CarmichaelTraining Systems Coach, back on
the show.
Stoked to have Addison back on.
This is going to be our firstinstallment of a short trail,
long trail coaching mini-seriesthat we're going to be working
on.
(00:20):
I'm kind of all over the placein this episode, but the
overarching, kind of theoverarching theme of this one
specifically is going to be onlong-range planning, goals, and
race selection.
And then we're going to be doinga bunch of different
installments for differentsubtopics that we'll ask the
audience advice on for what theywant to hear as we kind of go,
maybe in a monthly or maybe likea quarterly fashion, which is
(00:41):
going to be a ton of fun.
You know, I think this is anabsolute necessary episode in
the sense where seasons startingto kind of change.
People are starting to end theirseasons and plan for 2026 and
beyond.
So, you know, we talk about, youknow, what it's like partnering
with a coach, figuring out whatthose plans are going to be,
(01:03):
setting those goals, how manyraces you should do, and just
all kinds of fun stuff.
And then I have 10 millionmiscellaneous questions that
Addison's kind enough to kind ofanswer and uh you know put his
perspective on, which is a lotof fun.
So hope you guys enjoy this one.
Haven't quite nailed down a nameyet for this series, uh, but
that'll be rolling out prettysoon once we start to figure
that out.
(01:23):
But hope you guys enjoy it.
Lots of good wisdom here fromAddison.
Guy is an absolute brain, and Ijust really appreciate his
perspective.
So without further ado, AddisonSmith.
(02:39):
Addison Smith, welcome back tothe Steep Stuff Podcast.
How's it going, man?
I'm good.
SPEAKER_00 (02:44):
Thanks for having me on again.
Looking forward to ourconversation.
SPEAKER_01 (02:46):
Yeah, dude.
I'm so happy you're able to dothis.
I we we still need to figure outa name, but like for the
audience uh and thoseinterested, like we're this is
like kind of a coaching corner.
I think that name might betaken.
So like this is uh James andAddison's coaching discussion as
of right now, and we'll we'llget a more formal name after
this episode.
SPEAKER_00 (03:02):
We'll make it more exciting as we can think of
something as we go.
SPEAKER_01 (03:05):
Yeah, yeah.
But no, dude, I appreciate youcoming back on.
I think there's a lot of goodopportunities to talk about
different coaching aspects,especially as the season starts
to shift now.
Um, I know for you and I, one ofthe big topics we wanted to kind
of hit at was like long-rangeplanning and talking to athletes
about that and just how to setgoals and and you know, uh if
you were looking for, you know,getting a coach, how to get even
(03:27):
get signed up to do that, aswell as like race selection.
Like I feel like there's a lotof like really good subtopics to
hit here.
Um what do you want to hitfirst?
What do you want to dive into?
SPEAKER_00 (03:36):
That is a great question.
I think you know, the best wayto start is just to think about,
you know, if I were an athletecoming to into the space for the
first time, there's so manydifferent awesome things to to
do as far as races and camps andexperiences and places to
travel.
And so kind of looking into thelens of someone who's coming
into the sport as a beginner,what are the things that they
(03:58):
should be thinking about whencreating that first year of you
know trail and ultra races thatthey put on the calendar?
Because I think that's a reallycritical thing that doesn't get
discussed very much.
I I think there's a lot of eyecandy out there as far as
opportunities to sign up.
And you could sign up for a raceevery weekend and have a great
time everywhere.
But, you know, identifying firstand foremost what are your goals
(04:22):
for this coming year to, youknow, in terms of those goals,
is there kind of a big goal thatkind of gets you the most
excited, you know, for thatseason?
And then kind of working yourway back from there.
Because I think some an issuethat some people run into when
they get into the sport is theywant to do everything all at
(04:44):
once.
And I think, as you and I know,having done this sport for a
while now, there really needs tobe a focus, not only from the
perspective of you know, timeavailability to train, funds to
get out to all of these coolplaces.
But I think third and mostimportantly, having a focus on
kind of the demands of what thatrace or course requires, whether
(05:06):
in training, in mentalpreparation, in fueling and
hydration, and and those thingsare very unique across all of
the different races and kind oftypes of uh experiences and
distances that we'll see here inin trail running.
SPEAKER_01 (05:20):
Interesting, dude.
I like this.
This is a good this is a goodlittle all right.
Let's let's dive in.
How would I pick a race?
Like what how how like if I'minterested in finding a race, I
mean there's so many differentoptions, so many opportunities.
If you were to take we'll breakthis up into three options,
maybe.
If I'm a beginner or if I'm ayou know a moderate, more a
moderate runner or maybe anelite runner, how would you how
(05:41):
would you push someone to kindof craft their season?
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
That is a great question.
I every every athlete that Iwork with, we kind of end the
season with talking about kindof next year, what their goals
look like.
And the first thing that I ask,and I think the most important
thing in kind of the process ofchoosing that initial goal is
what gets you excited?
Like what at the end of thenight are you like looking up
(06:06):
videos on YouTube about, youknow, what sort of thing like
sparks your excitement, whetherit's like a travel trip to an
awesome mountain range or youknow, something locally that
just really piques yourinterest.
Maybe you've run on these, youknow, sorts of trails in the
past or currently, and you wantto just piece together all of
these trails, you know, in arace scenario.
(06:26):
I think finding the one thingthat really gets you out of bed
in the morning to train,especially in the middle of the
year when likely you're gonna bedoing higher volume, you're
gonna be trying to makeeverything work with life and
with, you know, your running andtraining goals, you know, your
work obligations.
The this is the race that, youknow, no matter what happens, no
(06:48):
matter what um issues you runinto and sort of push and pull
on your life that you have, thisgoal is gonna keep you getting
up and getting out and gettingexcited for the training
process.
Because ultimately, you know,when you're choosing a race at
the end of our quote unquoteseason, obviously, you know,
with trail and ultra running,you could be racing an A race at
any point in the calendar.
But typically, this is where youknow the trail running calendar
(07:11):
starts to wind down.
At this point in the season,you're choosing something
likely, you know, four months tonine months out from now.
And that's gonna be your NorthStar to which everything else is
built.
And that thing needs to reallyfire you up, really motivate
you, and want you uh, you know,getting out the door for the
entirety of the training block,which will likely be, you know,
(07:34):
a couple of months, if not closeto a year.
SPEAKER_01 (07:36):
If I'm like a new, and I I think this is cool
because we if in this audience,like we have a really good mix
of uh both entry-level folks, wehave a lot of elite athletes,
and we have a lot of sub-eliteathletes that want to become
elite athletes that listen tothis.
For the new, like, I don't wantto call them newbies, but if
you're someone relatively new tothe sport, like what is if I'm
picking something like let's sayI want to run Canyons, and we're
(08:00):
what are we in now?
October, November.
If I want to run Canyons in thecanyon, let's say the Canyons
50K is gonna be my A race, andwe're gonna we're gonna kind of
build a build like for that.
How would you build something?
Like, is it gonna be a lot ofbase blocks?
We do a VO2 block, like howwould you put together kind of
like that train, like that, Iguess blocks of training for
(08:20):
someone pretty new to somethinglike that?
SPEAKER_00 (08:22):
Definitely, definitely.
Ultimately, I think it dependson the athlete's fitness level
coupled with kind of where theyare in the progression of their
trail and ultra running journey.
So, for example, if you're gonnahave an elite athlete doing
Canyons 50K, that's roughlygonna take them, you know, on
the hours of you know, three,three to four hours, roughly
(08:45):
speaking.
So that's you know, comparableto you know, steady state
intensity, close to marathonintensity.
And that's the kind of trainingthat we're gonna want them to be
doing as close to the race aspossible, if that's their A
race.
And so, in terms of kind ofwinding things back between now
and that race, we're gonna betouching on different intensity
(09:06):
systems in the kind ofintermediate periods between now
and then before we get into kindof the meat of the most specific
type of training, which is, youknow, you could call it a
variety of things.
You could call it LT1, you couldcall it zone three training, you
could call it, you know, theclosest, you know, equivalent in
ultra and trail running tomarathon effort.
(09:28):
That's the kind of sweet spotintensity that we want to be
focusing on because that's whatyou're gonna be doing on race
day for the most part.
Now, if you're more of abeginner athlete, maybe a middle
or back of the packer, thenthat's gonna look more like zone
two on race day because just thecapacity to run at a certain
intensity and the total time tocomplete that race is a little
(09:50):
bit different.
And so, in that scenario, thenyou're gonna be doing a lot more
zone two, you know, long daysout in the trails.
And then maybe, you know, inMarch, for example, you're gonna
be doing more of that zone threework.
Whereas, you know, for an eliteathlete, likely, you know,
you're gonna be building a bigbase in like December, January,
(10:11):
February, then probably addingin some threshold after that.
And then we're gonna be goinginto kind of that specific
period where you're doing thatzone three marathon effort
intensity.
And so I think within thecontext of any of these races
that we're doing, whether ahundred-mile race or you're
doing a Cirque series race,identifying how long that race
(10:31):
is gonna take you is going toreally dictate what sort of
training you're gonna be doingin the lead up to that race and
kind of, you know, at least inCTS's training philosophy, we
want to be touching on all ofthe different intensity systems,
but we want to do it in astructured way to where you're
doing the most specific thingtraining-wise to the intensity
that you're gonna beexperiencing on race day.
(10:53):
And so the puzzle pieces aregonna match a little bit
differently depending on thatrace duration and the uh fitness
level of that athlete leading upto that race.
So interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (11:04):
All right, I want to pivot a little bit.
So for let's say, so I just hadAdrian McDonald on yesterday,
and he I one of the things Ireally appreciate about Adrian
is he mixes it up, he does a lotof short trail stuff, and then
he'll pick like one, maybe twolonger short or longer trail uh
races a year, maybe it'd beLeadville, Western State, two
TMB, whatever.
Um, and I I like how differentathletes kind of throw those
(11:24):
things in there and kind of mixit up with both.
If you were to offer advice forlet me we could start with the
beginner all the way up to theintermediate to the elite, dude.
What is like an appropriateamount of races like people
should be doing a year?
I and I'll I'll throw this oneout there.
Like my friend Lemmy Remy LaRue,who's been on the podcast a
bunch of times, dude.
I think he raced like 25 timesthis year.
Now, short trail, uh, you know,and I feel like he's only gotten
(11:46):
fitter and better.
Um, but like, and then I'll seepeople do like a bunch of
hundred miles per year, andtheir body can like Rachel
Entrigan and stuff like that.
Obviously, these are elite ofthe elite athletes, but how do
people like durability's got tobe a massive thing as well?
So, how would you what would yourecommend as far as athletes
kind of picking the A races onthe calendar and then the B and
C races to kind of fill it in?
SPEAKER_00 (12:08):
Definitely, definitely.
When you asked that question, mymind immediately went to a
continuing ed discussion that wehad as a group a few years ago.
Um, Athletics Canada put outthis really, really awesome
document.
And, you know, if you'relistening and you're curious at
all, go and check it out.
Essentially, what they wereoutlining is, you know, in
Canada, because you know,they're a little bit smaller of
(12:30):
a country than the US, and thecollegiate system isn't
necessarily used as aspringboard as much as it is in
a lot of sports in um kind ofthe team USA, you know, youth
athletes going up into beingOlympic ready athletes.
They outlined, you know, whatare the fundamental goals in
terms of long-range athletedevelopment in the different
(12:52):
parts of, you know, an athlete'sdevelopment as they go all the
way from like nine years old upto competing at their best, you
know, between 25 and 30.
And in that, I think there's alot of cool information that we
can take when looking at, youknow, any sort of beginner,
intermediate, or elite athleteand get insights into what are
the goals that we're trying toachieve in a given season within
(13:15):
the context of someone'sathletic career.
Because even though you know abeginner athlete may not see
themselves as like, this is mycareer, certainly they want to
progress as they go along intheir ultra running or trail
journey and doing it in a way towhere they're picking up the
right kind of learnings alongthe way, whether in training or
(13:36):
in racing, should help informand help them grow into, you
know, the best version ofthemselves in whatever capacity
that is, you know, in the primeof their career, so to speak, or
when they've just accumulated afew years and they're ready to,
you know, perform at theirabsolute best.
So in that document, there's alot of conversations about, you
know, what are the goals withinthese different like periods of
(14:00):
um an athlete's, you know,lifespan.
And so the main kind of pointswithin that is, you know,
there's there's a period of timewhen you're learning to train.
This is when you're a beginner,you've just started endurance
training, or you've just startedtraining for specific types of
trail or ultar runs.
And so in this learning to trainprocess, the goal isn't to go
(14:21):
out and do a bunch of races, thegoal is to kind of hone in on
understanding how to train well,you know, the the ebbs and flows
of your body's fatigue andrecovery mechanisms as we go
about kind of training fordifferent blocks.
And that can take, you know,anywhere from like one to two
years.
Obviously, for adults that havesome sort of endurance
(14:42):
background, maybe just notspecifically in the trail and
ultrarunning realm, you know,that's going to be a lot shorter
of a process.
But even for an elite athletethat I'm working with, she's
come from a high school trackbackground, but it was more
sprint-focused, a collegiate,highly competitive basketball
background.
And then she's jumped into thetrails.
(15:02):
And so, yes, she has trainedmany, many years in the past,
but the in terms of likeunderstanding her physiology,
when to push, when to pull backin an endurance context is
relatively new.
And so, kind of this past year,we were really focusing on
dialing in her understandingwhat sort of you know things
(15:23):
should she be thinking about intraining to make sure we're not
overdoing things, but alsohitting the right intensities on
given training days for athreshold block or a steady
state block or a VO2 max block.
And after kind of that period oftime, we're kind of jumping into
the next phase, which is umlearning to race.
And so for her, she she lovesthe 100K 50 mile distance.
(15:44):
Um, she did CCC this pastsummer.
It went fairly well, but youknow, there were still some
things that we're tinkering withbefore we feel like she's ready
to like give her absolute best,her physiological best
performance on a day becauseshe's dialed in her nutrition,
she's dialed in her RPE on theday, she knows, you know, how to
manage herself on an earlydownhill, for example, or an
(16:06):
early climb.
And so that's that next period.
And I'll kind of just talk aboutkind of the three phases.
They break it down the AthleticsCanada into a couple more
phases, but you know, just forthis audience to kind of
understand where I'm comingfrom, it's really just three
main phases.
And the second phase is thelearning to compete.
And in this phase, our focus ison getting reps in race
(16:28):
scenarios.
And so it's not like we have abunch of A races on the
calendar.
We have a bunch of B and C raceswhere we're just going out and
we're practicing the things thatwe've talked about in long runs.
We've done the training and sheknows how to measure her body
out in training.
But now it's time to learn whento go with a move in a race,
when to hold back, you know, indifferent scenarios of altitude,
(16:51):
cold weather, hot weather, youknow, what should she be
adjusting fueling andhydration-wise, and what sort of
gear is necessary for thosedifferent environmental
conditions that she might findherself in.
And so, likely my guess is thisis gonna be, you know, about a
year process of, you know,throwing her into a bunch of
different race scenarios, youknow, competitive fields where
(17:13):
it's not like she's just gonnawalk away and kind of do her own
thing in the front, but also sheshe's not way behind a group and
you know, not feeling like she'skind of in the thick of it.
Because for her, wanting toeventually, you know, take on
some sponsorships, althoughthat's not like her main goal,
but like that would be a productof her continuing to develop and
she is competitive.
(17:34):
Um, we want to get her to aplace where she's super
comfortable at CCC or at anothermajor race in the context of
having all of these experiencesthat she's you know picked up on
the in the past year of racing alot more to then give it her
best and maximize theperformance, which is kind of
that last phase of learning towin.
(17:55):
And so that can look like a lotof different things.
For an age group, or that's justmaybe maximizing their ability
and kind of beating the peoplein their age bracket to go and
get a spot at UTMB, for example,at a Kodiak.
Or that could be, you know,simply um, you know, being
behind cutoffs for years andyears and years, but then going
to that big race like Leadvilleafter finishing a couple 50K's,
(18:18):
50 miles, 100Ks, knowing thatlike they have the tools to
squeak by and get that 30, 29,59 finish at Leadville, for
example.
And so I think within talkingabout these three different
phases, identifying, you know,where you are within kind of
your own journey with trailerultra running will really inform
(18:39):
what sort of races or how manyraces you should be doing.
Because I think even forsomeone, you know, that's doing
a Cirque series race, you havethe opportunity in the lead up
to maybe an A race within thatCirque series to practice some
really technical downhills ifthat's a struggle of yours in a
variety of races where you knowmaybe you're not at your peak
fitness, but we're just gonnadrill that with a bunch of
(19:02):
people you can follow and kindof push your comfortability
within a race context to reallyimprove that.
So when you get to that A race,there's no question that you can
bomb that downhill with whereveryou're competing in that race,
if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01 (19:15):
Totally, dude.
That's interesting.
There's so many different thingsI can like riff off on this.
First thing I want to get to,because this is something I
think I need help with andsomething I will be working on
this year a ton, is just likethe amount of races you do in
the sense of like these B and Craces, just kind of lur kind of
learning how to race.
Because I like I only raced,granted, I went through a period
of injury this year, but I onlyraced twice.
(19:36):
And I felt like when I lined upwhen did I I what was I at?
Uh what was it?
Um go Grand Targy.
Dude, I had so much race rust, Itotally forgot how to do so many
different things that like youknow, even from like breakfast
in the morning for certainthings and you know, different
hydration solutions, all kindsof stuff.
And it's I I feel like it's suchan important thing to practice
(19:57):
because it's a skill in its ownright.
Like racing is its ownindividual skill.
Totally.
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
Yeah.
I have a high school athletethat is a junior in high school,
but we've only started workingtogether as she's like wanted to
get more competitive and lookinto the idea of, you know,
racing collegiately at a fairlycompetitive program.
We've really drilled theroutine, you know, from
lunchtime at school to like apre-race snack to what she's
(20:23):
doing in the warm-up.
And I want it to be as likeeasily accessible to her
mentally, to where that's notsomething we're thinking about
or worried about.
We can focus on all of the otherthings that might potentially
make her nervous.
But in terms of the routine,nothing changes.
Like if the start time is anhour earlier, then we're moving
this entire schedule of herroutine back an hour and she's
(20:46):
gonna do the exact same thing.
And I think that's that's areally cool part of like the
learning to race um portion.
It's not just like the skillsthat you're picking up within
the race.
And of course, like we talkabout those things.
I think it reflection post-raceis a really important kind of
part of that sphere of someone'scareer, is just understanding,
(21:07):
you know, the things that maybethey could have done
differently, but also, you know,reflecting on the things that
went really well and reinforcingthose things, but also the
routine before and afterwards tomake it as an anxiety-free
process as possible.
Because, you know, racing whenyou really care about it is
gonna have a lot of anxietyalready.
So you want to eliminate all ofthe noise as much as you can
(21:28):
before and afterwards.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:29):
I feel like we could do all right, we'll we'll save
that for a different for adifferent podcast because I feel
like we could do an entire oneon race day just talking about
like appropriation.
All right, what else do you wantto get to on?
I feel like so.
We got to race selection,picking races, kind of building
out a schedule or having an ideaof building out a schedule.
What else do you think we can wecan dive into for this?
SPEAKER_00 (21:50):
I think for the for the everyman, the non-elite who
you know has the job and afamily and friends and other
time commitments, a really keycomponent of choosing their A
race, but also their seasonschedule is just their time
availability to train.
Because I think a lot ofathletes, when they get done
(22:11):
with the season, especially whenit goes well, their eyes get
super wide, they get superstoked about all of these other
potential things that they cando.
You know, they feel, you know,on top of the world, their
confidence is at an all-timehigh.
And so it's easy to get greedywith either the races that you
choose or the amount of racesthat you choose, even when you
might think in the back of yourmind, like, I don't know if I
(22:33):
have the time to train for that.
If there's any thought that,like, oh, maybe I shouldn't, you
know, choose this race becauseit's gonna be really challenging
to get in the time to train,then I think you should spend
about a week and talk to first,talk to your significant other
if you have one.
You know, think about thepotential busy periods of work
and try to minimize, you know,choosing races within that
(22:55):
period of time.
Because we want to make surethat there's no major roadblocks
as far as time availability,especially right before a race,
to potentially hinder youravailability opportunity to
train, but also potentially puta dent in your confidence
because you're frustrated withjust the whole scenario.
It's like, I signed up for thisrace, I really wanted to do it,
and now I don't have the time totrain for it.
(23:16):
And then it's just a downwardspiral spiral of frustration and
potentially losing fitness.
And so, in terms of kind of aminimum range to train for
certain races, if you don't havesix hours to train for an ultra
at 50K, 50 mile, anythingconsistently, you know, for four
to six weeks in the lead up inthe last eight weeks of the
(23:37):
race, then I would recommendthat you choose shorter races
than ultras for that time being.
Because I think as a minimum for50K's and 50 mile races, six
hours of training, running,biking, whatever endurance
activity you can for that needsto happen.
And I think we can we can youknow push that up a little bit
for the 100K, roughly ninehours.
(23:58):
If you can't train nine hoursfor three to six weeks um in
kind of your biggest volumeblock leading up to the race,
then I would say choose a 50K.
And same goes for the 100 mile.
Between 10 to 12 hours, roughly,would be kind of the minimum
amount of time to train um forfour to six weeks leading up to
that hundred mile.
And if you can't get that done,then I'd say save it for another
(24:20):
year because it's just gonnalead to anxiousness,
frustration, and hopefully not,but you know, not a lot of
success on race day.
And so I think that's a realconversation that needs to be
had while you're super excited,all of the registration, you
know, opportunities are open.
You can throw your hat in thelotteries.
This is the time to really checkyourself a little bit and just
(24:41):
give yourself uh an opportunityto think about what actually I
can do leading up to this race.
Because the worst thing is tolike throw a race away and and
and kind of push yourregistration away, um, you know,
leading up to that race afteryou put in so much training and
maybe you just don't have thattime leading up to the race.
SPEAKER_01 (24:58):
That's gonna be an interesting, it's gotta be a
difficult conversation for youas a coach to have too.
To be obviously, there's a lotof real conversations that go
into being a coach.
It's yeah, you're part coach,part uh therapist in a lot of
ways, you know, when it comes tothis stuff.
But like, so let's say I come toyou and say Addison, I'm signing
up for I don't know, let's sayI'm gonna run the Gorge 100k,
(25:20):
right, in February or March.
Race day comes, I don't have thebest day, but I didn't put in
the work.
It's like, how do you that's adifficult conversation to have
if you're not putting that timein?
Do you do you have thatconversation up front with your
athletes?
Like this is gonna require Xamount of time, or is it more so
just kind of like I know myrelationship with my coach, it's
like, okay, for me, it's likewhatever it takes, but I'm a
(25:40):
different type of person.
Yeah, I have different goals.
But for your average athlete,how is that with these
conversations?
SPEAKER_00 (25:47):
Yeah, it's tough because I want to be your
biggest supporter andcheerleader, but I also have to
be a little bit of your likebiggest enemy, pulling yourself
away, pulling you away from likeyour hopes and dreams if it's
not realistic for the time.
That's not to say you can't dothose things.
That's not to say that, youknow, next year we can't tackle
this goal.
(26:08):
But I also want to set you upfor success because I think
every, you know, time that anathlete comes in and wants to
really attack a goal, but youknow, it turns out they don't
have a lot of time for it,that's a really frustrating
conversation to have because,you know, they really want this
thing, but it's just not workingout.
What I always say is, you know,every person has seasons of life
where they're, you know,available to train, they're
(26:30):
available to really tackle theirbig goals.
But in kind of the grand schemeof things, that may not be this
year.
And that's not to say we can'thave you know success growing in
your kind of understanding of,you know, training, we can't get
fitter.
Um, but maybe you just can'ttrain for 100 this year.
And that's okay.
(26:50):
We can learn a lot of thingsdoing a 50-mile race.
We can dial in your nutrition,you know, in training still.
Or, you know, if that race isstill gonna go down, then it's
just having an honestconversation about, you know,
you may not be at your best, butlet's figure out ways to ensure
that you can go as far as youcan.
And when things hit the fan,because likely they will if
(27:12):
you're under trained for a race,let's make sure that we know all
the things that we can do totriage that situation.
You know, if you're gonna reallystart to, you know, feel your
quads because we haven't time,haven't had time to get out in
the mountain trails or justtrain in general, then what are
the things that we can do?
One, obviously we can slow down.
Two, we can control our fueling.
(27:33):
We can make sure we're asprepared as we can be with, you
know, our our race gear and youknow, our our foot care scenario
if our feet kind of turn bad.
Um, and so you're givingyourself every chance to be
successful, but sometimes it'sjust off the table and we just
have to, you know, call it awash and and get back to it and
and try to build positives inanother way.
(27:55):
And and I think, you know, I dohave athletes that are kind of
in that cycle right now, whetherit's, you know, an injury
recovery cycle or it's just, youknow, they're swamped at work
right now.
And I think for me as a coach,the biggest thing I can do is
show that I'm still there forthem, I'm still supporting them,
and we're finding creative waysto still make this an enjoyable
process amid you know afrustrating time where it's
(28:17):
like, I just can't do the thingsI want to do.
Yeah, I can't train for this Arace.
I can't build out a long-rangeplan because I'm sitting here
injured.
And it's like, well, but we cando these things.
And so let's try to work onthese things so that we have
some momentum going forward onceyou're ready and available to
train.
SPEAKER_01 (28:32):
Interesting.
I think it's I mean, that's theonly thing you can do.
It makes the the you know, beinga partner in it and just is uh
kind of the best thing possible.
I want to pivot really quick.
You said for 100 miles, 12 hoursor somewhere in that range.
Dude, I I mean there's dudes nowobviously at the top of the
sport doing like like crazyvolume.
(28:52):
I feel like we're back in thisperiod now of crazy volume, but
also nutrition and fueling haslike really caught up in a lot
of ways technology-wise.
What do what do you see this as?
Is like what what are yourthoughts on that?
I know this is kind of out ofleft field, but I've just I
don't know.
I now that I have you in frontof me, I feel like this is an
interesting thing to talk about.
SPEAKER_00 (29:09):
No, no, this is this is a great question.
I'll I'll tackle the fuelingquestion first.
Um, there certainly is uhpotential benefits for elite
athletes to go, you know, 100,120 grams of carbs an hour, if,
and this is a big if, if theypractice it in training, if
they've practiced it in B races,and it's something that is not a
(29:33):
question of whether theirstomach can handle it or not.
If you're going from you knowdoing a 50K to a 100-mile race
and you're gonna try to fuel 120grams of carbs an hour, I think
that's a bad strategy.
Because in reality, for athletesthat aren't elite, you can get
away with doing you know 60grams to 90 grams of carbs an
(29:53):
hour without an issue, and anddoing more than that has the
potential detriment a lot.
More than there is potential forbenefit because your GI system
is going to struggle to processall of that because you're
running at a lower intensity towhere, you know, at that
intensity you're burning morefat than the pro that can run
that same race at a higherintensity and burn more carbs.
(30:16):
And so it's not a one-to-one fora person who's a middle of a
back-to-tacker running a racewith, you know, comparing that
to an elite athlete who's, youknow, running at threshold
intensity for a lot of theseclimbs and can handle, you know,
that many carbs.
And so I think, you know, withthe feed is awesome, but
something that I get a littlebit worried about when I see
(30:38):
their marketing is they don'ttalk about the fact that a lot
of, you know, middle of thepackers don't need that many
carbs because obviously, youknow, they want them to buy a
few more products and they wantthem to really go out there and
and try as many carbs as theycan.
But that's not necessarily goingto be a net benefit for those
people.
And I think putting it intocontext of, you know, energy
(31:00):
systems are different for eliteathletes and for middle-the-pack
athletes at the same exact race.
Um, I think is really importantto just give them that context
and know that they don't have todo the exact same thing that the
pros are doing.
SPEAKER_01 (31:13):
I love that.
Dude, and that's the thing, it'ssuch a catchy thing now to uh
it's become so like in thezeitgeist to do 100, 120 grams
per you know, per hour ofcarbohydrates.
Yeah, I don't know.
I think it's a recipe fordisaster.
Uh one more thing is on thevolume.
I people doing this crazyvolume.
Uh like like I said, we're atthat point now where it seems
like this is kind of circledback in the sport again.
(31:35):
It's interesting, man, even onthe short trail side.
Like I talk to people that run,like Andy Wacker puts up stupid
numbers sometimes, but then I'llsee Alexa Aragon.
Her and I were on the podcasttalking, I think she runs like
30 miles a week.
Um and I'm like, and but alsobikes and stuff like that.
A lot of dichotomy there.
What do you think of from avolume perspective?
SPEAKER_00 (31:54):
Yeah, I think it really depends on the types of
races that these athletes aredoing and their training history
because I think you know,someone like Katie Scheid can
handle a ton, a ton of volume.
One, because they're aprofessional athlete and they
can sleep, you know, 10 to 12hours a night.
You know, they have a a sportsdietitian, um, they have, you
(32:15):
know, Jason Coop working withthem and making sure they're not
overdoing things.
They're they're they're checkingtheir heart rate variability on
a regular basis to make surethat they're on the right side
of like what is sustainable andwhat isn't sustainable.
Um, and they're doing 100 mileraces.
And so all of those things leadto Katie Scheid doing a ton of
volume.
That's not to say that someone,you know, that's doing 100 miles
(32:38):
needs to do, you know, average18 to 24 hours a week.
You can get away with doing 13,14, 15, especially when you're a
younger athlete and you don'thave that amount of volume
behind you.
Because I think regardless ofhow good that person is, an
important thing as a coach is tounderstand the context of which
their training history leadsinto what you should be
(33:00):
prescribing.
Because we don't want to makeany massive jumps in volume if
that's gonna lead to injury orburnout.
Because at the end of the day,you know, at least for me as a
coach, I would rather seeconstant progression, not only
in a training, you know, spacefor total volume, but also
constant progression from aresults perspective rather than
(33:21):
a swing for the fences and it'sa 50-50 whether they totally
crush a race or they getinjured, if that makes sense.
And kind of on the flip side,for a lot of the short trail
runners, um, there's a lot ofpapers that come out that, you
know, support the fact that, youknow, having a lot of zone two
training is definitely stillgonna benefit someone who races
for, you know, an hour to twohours, for example.
(33:42):
Um, but certainly it needs tocome in the context of having a
variety of specificity mixed in,and that often means a lot more
intensity.
And when you come into conflictis where you have too much
intensity while you're alsodoing too much volume.
And so I think it's really thecoach's job to figure out, you
know, when are we really rampingup the intensity?
(34:02):
And then, you know, subsequentlyalso during that time reducing
the total volume so that we'rekeeping it a sustainable
process.
And so I do think, you know, inthose low intensity periods, we
can really ramp up the volume,and you can have people
training, you know, 15, 17, 18hours a week, even though
they're doing, you know, shorttrail type, you know, races.
(34:24):
But that needs to be, you know,within the general structure,
knowing that this race is goingto be run at a very high
intensity, high heart rate, um,high energy costs, and that also
needs to be a major part of theplan.
Interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (34:37):
I I've got one more question kind of out of left
field.
This is a Katie Scheid question.
I just find it so interesting.
Is she just an outlier then?
Because you see a lot of peoplethat are hundred miles, like
very specific athletes, and thenshe comes down and does series
and all and gets on the programand has an insane race.
Is that just pulling?
I mean, I from what I understandfrom training as well, no like
(34:59):
we're doing 90% most of the samestuff with that 10% that's a
little bit different.
Yeah, is that just pulling thoselevers in that training block
for her to get I don't know, Imean, you know Coop better than
I do, but like uh pulling someof those levers in that training
block to get her specificallyfit for something like that.
Like, how like what is she doingfor something like that?
SPEAKER_00 (35:18):
Yeah, so one of the cool things about being, you
know, a neerobic monster, so tospeak, is that your ability to
recover is just through the roofif you're doing it right and not
overtraining.
And so, you know, transitioningover to doing VO2max work, you
should have a higher capacity torecover from you know a bunch of
(35:39):
sessions in a row compared tosomeone who, you know, may not
have as much volume in theirsystem over the period of years
that they've trained.
I do know that, you know, Katiedoes do schemo races, she still
does VO2 max work, and also thismight sound like a CTS fanboy
answer, but she is also likevery clearly at the tip of the
(36:00):
spear performance-wise, youknow, in physiology-wise.
And so, yes, like her focus ison 100k, 100 mile races, but
she's that good to where itreally doesn't matter.
Like for Jim, for example, Jim'sanother good buddy, it doesn't
matter, he's just that muchbetter than everyone right now.
Um, and so I think that's a lotof it.
(36:21):
Uh, she was also doing a lot ofVO2 Max work leading up to that
race.
Um, you know, it wasn'tnecessarily an A race, but it
was also like a focus oftraining.
Um, and so I think all of thosethings lead to that performance.
Whereas, you know, if she was,you know, one of the top ladies
in the sport and not the toplady in the sport, her and
Courtney, um, then I would saythat, you know, it's not gonna
(36:46):
look that flashy when she comesback down to to 50k distance.
But I do think, you know,because she does high volume and
she's been doing it really wellum for years, that lends itself
to then transitioning andgetting some turnover and um
really hitting on that VO2 maxwell and recovering quickly from
it.
SPEAKER_01 (37:03):
So interesting.
Yeah, dude, what what aperformance.
I mean, I know we're totally abunch of months late on that,
but yeah.
Um, all right, I want to shiftgears one more time.
I want to get to so what aboutpicking uh there's a lot of
flashy stuff out there.
I see um, and some stuff reallyworks.
Like for me, I met with you, Idid a sweat test at CTS, and it
changed a lot for me as far asmy hydration went.
(37:25):
Um, I see a lot of like thesweat monitors people use.
I see a lot, there's a lot offlashy stuff on the market right
now.
What would you recommend?
Do you recommend for athletes toget sweat tests and stuff like
that, especially as they kind ofshift periods in their season uh
or to even coming into theoff-season so they can
appropriately dial in theirnutrition and hydration?
SPEAKER_00 (37:43):
I do think that's a legitimate tool.
There's a there's a lot ofdifferent things that you can do
in the off-season when you knowtraining's not that you know
high volume-wise, and and youhave the kind of ability to take
a step back and look at thingsfrom a broader lens.
Um, the nice thing about sweattesting is it gives you a number
that doesn't change.
(38:04):
It's like a one-time test.
You don't need to go in and doit again.
And you're coupling, so for thepeople that don't know what
we're talking about, this is aprecision hydration sodium sweat
test, which what it tests, thereyou go, showing the precision
bottle.
Not sponsored, should be.
Yeah.
Um, it's a test that that showshow salty your sweat is.
(38:25):
And so that is an importantmetric for your hydration plan
going into any race, butspecifically, you know, for
ultras or for the athlete likeJames, who is an especially high
sweater and is a fairly saltysweater.
And so it it also lends itselfto people that are doing shorter
races like the Cirque series aswell.
Um, but that test should also becoupled with just going out and
(38:49):
and getting a sweat rate test,which you can do at home.
It's just weighing yourselfbefore and after you go for a
run.
I recommend an hour just becauseit's easy for the math.
And so you have an idea of youknow how salty your sweat is per
liter of sweat loss, and thenyou're gonna figure out how many
liters you sweat to get ageneral idea of, okay, you know,
for X amount of hours racing,this is what my strategy is, not
(39:12):
only from the sodiumperspective, how much sodium I
should be taking in per hour,depending on the environmental
conditions you find yourself in,but as well as how much should I
be drinking in thoseenvironmental conditions,
because we want to make surethat, you know, you're not
losing too much body weight andyou're going into a dehydration,
dehydrated state, you know, overthe course of that race.
(39:33):
And the nice thing is, is you'donly have to do that precision
sweat test once, and then it'sjust dialing in and doing a
couple of those sweat rate testsover the course of a couple
different environmentalconditions, you know, when it's
really cold out, maybe 40degrees at the start of
Leadville, for example, all theway to going to Twin Lakes, and
maybe it's 75 and sunny at10,000 feet, and you're gonna
(39:57):
your sweat rate's gonna bedrastically different, maybe you
know, two or three folddifference compared to those
different times of the day.
And that'll then help informthen what do you do on the salt
front when you're sweating abunch or when you're sweating
just a little bit.
Interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (40:12):
Okay, all right.
Yeah, I I mean I highlyrecommend it.
I think it's a great aspect ifyou're looking.
I mean, I don't know, and thiswas kind of going into the topic
of like, all right, nowoff-season stuff and quote
unquote off-season stuff, youcan take more swings and try and
figure more stuff out.
Um, like, I don't know, I'vealways heard like don't mess
with your diet too much whenyou're you know competing and
stuff like that.
(40:32):
This is a time to kind of dothat.
Um same with the hydration, kindof getting that dialed in and
figuring out.
So there's all kinds of goodstuff there.
SPEAKER_00 (40:40):
Totally, totally.
Um the one thing I would say,kind of in addition to all of
the things we've talked about,is you know, if you don't get
into a lottery, that's not tosay that you know you can't find
an A race that is awesome.
There are so many races on UltraSign Up that I would highly
recommend you you check out.
There's tons of YouTube clipsfor a variety of races.
And so for you know, this periodof time when we're going into
(41:03):
the lottery season, I know it'skind of this exciting time, but
it can also can be a veryfrustrating time if you've
entered Western States for the10th time, for example, and
you're still you have a billiontickets and you still can't get
in.
There are so many cool races outthere, and there's there's so
many kind people on on Instagramor probably in your running
community that have tried avariety of races.
(41:24):
And so I think, you know, nomatter what race you set
yourself up to do, that A race,like we've talked about, if it
doesn't come through and forwhatever reason, you know, you
find that that's just a busytime in life, or you just can't
get into it because it's youknow really hard to get into,
pivoting and finding anotherrace within four weeks of that
race is is gonna be very likely.
(41:45):
And there's a variety of awesomerace companies that'll take care
of you out there.
And so I I think, you know, aword of uh of caution for
everyone that just wants to bereally frustrated in December
and January, that there's a lotof other opportunities out there
and pivoting isn't too hard todo.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:01):
Is that the time you guys start to see more like
busyness uh like around kind ofthat time frame when people get
into races and then they ohshit, I need a coach?
Like, is that is that when youguys start to like people start
to buckle down kind of thing?
SPEAKER_00 (42:14):
That is exactly our busy busy season, yes.
Um we tell everyone, you know,all of our coaches to open up
their availability, get ready totake on some athletes.
And I think for a lot of them,if they have a full athlete
roster, um, it's it's a toughdecision because it's like they
know that this come around thistime, there's a lot of people
that are going to be takingbreaks from training.
(42:34):
Um, and so it's there's ebbs andflows in terms of you know, the
the coach's athlete roster, andand people typically tend to
take on a lot more athletes, youknow, come January, just because
that's that time where a lot ofpeople just got into the lottery
and, like you said, arepanicking a little bit because
now it's real.
You know, they put in a bunch oftickets over and over and over.
It's like, oh my gosh, now Iactually got in and let's do
(42:56):
this right.
So definitely.
If you're interested incoaching, feel free to reach out
and we're happy to help you outhere at CTS.
Sweet.
SPEAKER_01 (43:02):
Yeah, we'll definitely, I mean, it'll be in
the plug for whoever wants toget in contact.
We'll we'll put you in the asthe show notes.
Uh, one last thing.
I know you just got back from umuh Havelina.
How was that?
SPEAKER_00 (43:12):
Havelina was awesome, man.
So this was my third time goingout.
We've crewed specifically ourCTS athletes four years now.
And I would say this was themost rewarding and awesome
experience for me as a coach andjust someone who helps organize
the crewing, just because it wasso cool to see so many people
kind of recognize that A goal,like we talked about.
(43:34):
This is, you know, Javelina isone of the end of season races,
and and it's a great opportunityto put a bookend on, you know, a
big season that has been plannedsince January.
And um we were you know thrilledto have 17 of our 21 athletes
finish, which is 81% and and anddefinitely a lot higher than the
average at Javelina.
(43:54):
We had, you know, being a partof Will Murray's crew was was
pretty awesome, just how calm,cool, and collected he executed
that race.
Um, but really for me, it's likestaying up at at midnight and
and crewing the middle of thePackers is the most rewarding
because you know, you really seeyou know a lot of people just
gutting it out and and andputting their you know dreams
(44:17):
and goals, you know, to work outthere and having the opportunity
to fix some feed or hand anextra bottle to someone, it just
means the world to them.
And you know, seeing theircrews, you know, just be at ease
because there's a couple otherpeople to lend a hand, I think
is really special.
And if you haven't been out toJavelina, it's such a cool race
for a variety of reasons.
One being that it's you know,it's a party in the desert, but
(44:39):
for you know, uh an athletewho's relatively new to ultra
running, it's a great place toget your crew involved for the
first time because it's theeasiest crew setup.
You're just hanging out atJavelina headquarters the whole
time, likely in the tent, youknow, just hanging out, maybe
dancing a little bit, dressingup in a costume and and watching
your athletes come through everycouple hours.
So highly recommend.
And it was a definitely a greattime for for us CTS coaches and
(45:02):
athletes.
SPEAKER_01 (45:03):
Did you did you dress up?
Did you did you wear a costume?
SPEAKER_00 (45:07):
I I was a little bit lame this year.
I had a costume last year.
SPEAKER_01 (45:10):
These are the questions the audience wants to
know, dude.
SPEAKER_00 (45:12):
Dude, I brought a costume and I was stoked about
it, but I like I was go, go, gothe entire day.
I didn't even like have a chanceto think about putting on my
costume until it was 2 a.m.
And it's like, well, dang, nowno one's gonna see my costume,
anyways.
SPEAKER_01 (45:25):
That's awesome.
Well, yeah, Addison, dude, thankyou so much for coming on.
I think we we covered a lot ofreally good stuff.
Um, yeah, I can't wait to startpro like game planning for the
next one.
I feel like there's a lot ofgood coaching conversations that
we can have, uh, especially forathletes um, you know,
interested in the sporting,wanting to learn more.
And and yeah, I think it'sthere's all kinds of good stuff
there.
So appreciate you.
SPEAKER_00 (45:45):
Yeah, definitely, man.
I had a great time and lookingforward to the next ones.
Thanks, dude.
SPEAKER_01 (45:50):
What'd you guys think?
Oh man, I feel like we we got alot of good stuff in there, lots
of nuggets of wisdom fromAddison and stoked to continue
to do more of these.
Uh, like I said, I'm gonna putout uh some feelers to the
audience.
And if you guys happen to haveany things you want to learn
about uh on the coaching end orany subtopics that you find
really interesting that you wantus to talk about in a future
(46:11):
episode, please reach out.
Uh send me a DM on Instagram orAddison and uh or a message in
any way.
Like I said, there's a bunch ofdifferent ways to reach out to
us.
But yeah, reach out, let us knowwhat you guys are thinking and
what you want to hear about, anduh, we'll be sure to bring those
topics up on a future episode aswe continue to kind of figure
out this mini-series uh thatwe're gonna be working on.
(46:31):
So, guys, the best way you couldsupport Addison two different
ways first is give him a followon Instagram.
You can find him at Addisonunderscore Smith16.
It's gonna be linked in the shownotes.
On top of that, if you'reinterested in a coach right now
or looking for coaching, Addisonis a coach at Carmichael
Training Systems in ColoradoSprings.
That's right, CTS.
On his Instagram bio, you canfind him at TrainRight Coaches
(46:52):
Addison Smith.
Uh, there's gonna be a link tofollow for um if you guys think
he would be a good fit for you.
There's a link to follow to uhtalk to him and uh do some
initial uh yeah, some someinitial feeling out to uh see if
that would be a good fit.
So yeah, reach out to Addisonfor coaching and all good stuff
there.
Um it's also gonna be linked inthe show notes.
(47:13):
So if uh that's a good spot, youguys can figure it out too.
Um yeah, the best way you couldsupport the podcast is if you
enjoyed this episode and others,give us a five-star rating and
review on Apple, Spotify,YouTube, or wherever you consume
your pods.
Um video episodes now on Spotifyand YouTube, including this one.
And very last but not least, uhyou could support us also
through our brand partner,Ultimate Direction.
(47:36):
If you head on over toultimatedirection.com, type in
code SteepstuffPod, one wordSteepstuff Pod, it's gonna get
you 25% off your cart.
So, guys, thanks so much fortuning in.
All good stuff.
I've got a great episode thatI'm so excited to do uh with
Abigail Lock that's gonna becoming out tomorrow.
So lots of good stuff down thepipeline and uh much appreciate
it, but I'm gonna go back to thesame way.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com