World Mountain & Trail Running Championship Recap with Paul Kirsch & Tom Hooper

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A month after Canfranc, the dust has settled but the stories still sting—sometimes literally. We sat down with Team USA leaders Paul Kirsch and Tom Hooper to unpack a world championship defined by raw terrain, tight logistics, and athletes who found another gear when it mattered most. If you watched the medals, you saw the headlines. If you listen here, you’ll hear the blueprint.

We start where results are made: planning. Paul and Tom pull back the curtain on selection debates, athlete travel, hotel puzzles, kit approvals, and an aid station operation designed for seconds, not comfort. Imagine three staff crewing a dozen athletes off a single table while frost slicks the rocks, ground wasps erupt near the trail, and two bulls jog past a sunrise checkpoint. That’s the reality of world-level trail—messy, improvised, and relentlessly precise.

From there we dig into racing. The long and short trail routes tilted skyward and technical, but champions like Jim Walmsley and Katie Schide still rose, proving that range and resilience travel across terrain. Hillary Gerardi stepped from VK to 80K to keep the team whole. Short trail newcomers like Jane and Ruby showed composure well beyond their caps. The vertical and classic squads highlighted rising stars—Anna Gibson, Cam Smith—and real team tactics, with athletes working together late to lock in points, cross-country style. Meanwhile, U20 athletes arrived with true mountain chops, signaling a pipeline ready to meet a deeper, more global field that now includes full squads from Uganda and Kenya and breakthrough team medals from nations like Canada.

We also talk about the gap that still holds the sport back: brand buy-in. Many athletes earn no bonuses for worlds and must choose between country and paycheck. With more sponsor support—following models we already see in track and the Olympics—world championships could become the premier stage they deserve to be. South Africa is next, and with the right mix of citizen races, media, and partners, the scene could match the spectacle.

Hit play for a candid, inside look at how Team USA turned chaos into podiums and why the future of mountain and trail running has never looked brighter. If this conversation resonates, subscribe, share with a friend, and leave a quick review to help more fans find the show.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Welcome back to this Deep Stuff Podcast.
I'm your host, James Loriello.
And today I'm so excited to do apost-worlds debrief.
That's right, we're about amonth removed from the U.S.
uh team going over to Con Frank,Spain to participate in the
World Mountain RunningChampionship.
And there's no two people betterto do a debrief of that
particular set of races thanPaul Kirsch and Tom Hooper.

(00:23):
Paul Kirsch, the U.S.
Mountain and Trail Running TeamLead, who went over to
participate and helped the teamout at the World Mountain
Running Championship along withTom Hooper, uh liaison for the
USATF, as well as the racedirector of 603 Endurance.
It was fun to catch up with bothguys.
We talked about a lot of theprevailing storylines uh coming

(00:44):
out of Con Frank post-worlds.
We got into some of theindividual performances.
We talked a lot about individualraces and different things that
went down, um, just what it waslike operating over there,
getting to uh participate in theaid station situation, um, as
well as work with the individualathletes was super fun.
Um, yeah, I think you guys willenjoy this one.

(01:04):
It's a good little debrief ofworlds.
Like I said, even though we'reabout a month removed, I think
there's a lot of good valuehere, and I think you'll take a
lot away from it.
So without further ado, PaulKirsch and Tom Hooper.

(02:21):
Tom Hooper, Paul Kirch.
Welcome to the Steep Stuff Cupthe Steep Stuff Podcast.
How's it going, guys?

SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
Fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 (02:28):
Good.
Yeah, excited to have you guyson.
I it's been uh I know it's beena really busy summer for the
both of you, you know, with allthe racing and everything that's
gone on, and obviously you'rejust getting back now and
getting settled from uh beingout at at the World Mountain
Running Championships, just aweek week plus removed.
Um yeah, guys, maybe maybe Iknow the audience knows who both

(02:49):
of you are, especially those inthe know know all know both of
you very well, but maybe for thegeneral audience, introduce
yourselves and uh maybe talk alittle bit about your roles with
what you guys did at Worlds thispast year.

SPEAKER_00 (03:01):
Sure.
Tom, do you want to go first sowe don't step on each other?

SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
Uh I'm just a glorified water boy, so that's
all I do.
That's it, that's it.
I mean, uh we're you know, we'restaff members for Team USA.
Uh I'm specifically for the longtrail and the short trail, of
course.
Um yeah, carry bags and getpeople through aid stations.

SPEAKER_03 (03:24):
Fill Jim Walmsley's water bottles.

SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
That's right, that's right.
Well, uh I was gonna say, I'mgonna um I'm gonna embellish a
little bit what Tom said there,what he's doing.
Um so yeah, we're both part ofthe team USA staff.
I changed from the U-20 managerto the overall team leader this
year.
Tom has been the trail teamleader for the last three
worlds.
Um, but really honestly, Tom'swork starts somewhere around

(03:51):
when this world ends.
And he's already thinking abouthow are we going to get the best
athletes there in South Africain two years.
Um, and you know, Tom's right.
While he's there, he's an aidstation junkie, but beforehand,
like he's getting a list of, youmay have seen it on the live
stream, but like he's got thetable set out.
He's got a sheet of paper withspecific instructions for every

(04:14):
single athlete on the tablebecause you know, we're crewing
for 12 people per race, and youdon't want to slow them down.
Um, so he's doing all thatlegwork ahead of time, and then,
you know, legwork we're doing,selecting the teams, finding,
you know, selection racesbeforehand, lots of promotion,
things like that, and thenhelping them with travel

(04:35):
logistics and all the questionsand everything.
Pretty much like if I had to sumit down to a single thing, it's
we're trying to do everything wecan for these athletes.
So all they have to do is race.
You know, they're not worriedabout, oh, how do I get a ride
to the start?
How do what do I do with myclothes when I'm in the call?
Uh, I loved Helen Umino Faulknercalled the uh call room the

(04:58):
200-meter petting zoo.
I love that.
But like they had to go in therepretty early.
So then they've got closed,they're trying to stay warm, and
we're on the sides of that.
Or we might be out on the courseyelling places to them,
depending on what the event is.
Uh cheerleaders at the aidstation, all those kinds of
things is really like what wecover with all of it.
It's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 (05:18):
Maybe go into um well, I don't know.
We could we could talk moreabout roles or we can jump more
into this year.
I mean, I think this year was avery special year for the teams.
Obviously, you, you know, thirdoverall team in general,
obviously numerous medals acrossthe board.
Um we just witnessed, I feellike American Trail and Mountain
Running really like step ontothe stage this year in a lot of

(05:38):
ways, especially in an extremelycompetitive year.
Um, guys, what what are yourthoughts?
Like, what are your takeawaysafter this year?
Was it excitement?
Was it like stoke for thefuture?
Like what's your kind of yourclosing thoughts from from just
especially just being removed?
You want to take this?
This is me and Tom.

SPEAKER_00 (05:59):
We're gonna stare awkwardly at each other a whole
lot of time.
Sorry, sorry.
I can make it a little no, I'mkidding.
Um, yeah, for me, like I've beeninvolved with the team a long
time, and it's just striking tome how it's just getting more
and more competitive.
Like Uganda and Kenya comingwith full teams for all the
mountain races, including theU-20 races.

(06:21):
And just in general, like, youknow, Jim won.
I think there's a lot of peopleyou could casually ask and say,
well, who's gonna win?
And everyone's saying, Oh,Wamsley's gonna win.
He was pushed by a bunch ofpeople, and you know, he had to
raise it to another level towin, which is amazing that he
was able to do that.
But secondly, um, I just feellike it's becoming a true world

(06:44):
champ.
70 plus countries, just it'sjust at another level, and it
keeps getting more and morecompetitive.

SPEAKER_01 (06:52):
And I think on the I think on the on the you can we
can always talk about thewinners, but we get to talk
about the rest of the teammatesthat that because of the format
and that it's a time format forthe long and short trail, to see
those guys where maybe theywouldn't have maybe they would
have pulled the plug to watchthem fight so hard as they're

(07:17):
one of us, you know what I mean,when you're when you're out
there, like to see them hurtingand not being not having the
best day, and they are juststill crushing it because they
know every second counts.
I think that's the mostimpressive thing to see.

SPEAKER_03 (07:30):
Yeah.
It's the competition level iscrazy.
I I want to pivot a little bitand talk about and just kind of
get your guys' perspective onjust logistically trying to put
something like this together andbringing a team out there,
right?
So obviously, I know you guysbrought David Sinclair with you.
I just talked to David actually,I just had him on the other day.
He's a funny guy.
I love David.
Um, I know you guys all traveledout there together, but in the

(07:51):
early stages of this, whenyou're trying to put everything
together, how are you planninguh roommate selections and the
figuring out the food situationand the room situation and all
just the logistical stuff?
Like how much goes into that?
And is it just a one-person jobor is it a team-based thing?

SPEAKER_00 (08:09):
I I would say from the point we first select the
team back, like the I mean, whatwas it?
Gorge was what April?
Um, I would say average 10 hoursa week to spend on the side
doing things, and it gets busiersuddenly when the whole team's
selected.
But yeah, you're going throughtrying to figure out are people
gonna stay at the team hotel?

(08:30):
And you know, finances is alwaysa thing.
Um, our funding comes frommostly from USA track and field,
but then um ATRA does like itssupplements to cover the rest of
the funding.
Um, so that's a big part of it.
It's trying to educate people.
There's a bunch of forms theyhave to fill out, they have to
go through background checks andsay sport and things like that.

(08:53):
So it's really, um, I think Ijoke with my wife, it's like
being ahead of a field trip of48 adults.
Did you get your permission slipsign?
Did you do this and everything?
And everybody does, but like atthe same time, these are all
people who are dedicated todoing a lot of training and they
may not be thinking to checktheir email all the time.

(09:13):
And so it's really staying ontop of that stuff.
And then, you know, Tom andAnita are going to dive into
looking at the courses.
We come up with questionsbecause we can ask questions of
like what's really in therequired gear bag and things
like that.
And the athletes will havequestions too.
Um, so it's really just kind ofongoing because, and then you

(09:34):
have some people that uh, oh,I'm going to Europe early.
Is there any way I can get myteam kit shipped early?
And so it's working with USATF.
And I can't say enough aboutBrad Burling there and Rob
Mullett, of what they do, justlike to jump through hoops of,
hey, somebody needs their kit bythis day.
Can you help get it out there?
And you know, overnight the kitto them so they could have it

(09:55):
before they went to Europe,stuff like that.
And it's really just kind ofmanaging a big giant project.

unknown (10:00):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (10:01):
Very cool.
I I got it, I do have a kitquestion for you guys.
I saw the and Tom, you've gotone.
I I saw you photographed in it.
The Nike, I should have had youwear it for the podcast.
The dope Nike uh ACG shirt.
How did you guys Tom?

SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
I have one too.
We both should have worn them.
That's our missed opportunity.
Yes.
All right, all right, 2027.

SPEAKER_03 (10:19):
Um what uh like how did you guys get a hold of
those?
Was Nike just like willing to uhpass them along for the world's
team?
Or like how how did that comeabout?

SPEAKER_00 (10:28):
Tom like started the conversation a couple years ago
trying to get it, and we weren'tsuccessful two years ago, and
then uh literally that stuff wasbrought by Nike the day before
the races.
Um, because like it may soundfunny, but like you can't just
have a shirt with because it'sWorld Athletics, it had two

(10:48):
logos on it.
So they can't just do the shirtwith the two logos, they have to
put USA on it, and then we haveto submit it.
Not us, but USATF has to submitit to be part of the official
team kit before it can beaccepted.
And then, like the shorts, youknow, they were able to get
shorts with pockets.
That's something athletes havebeen asked for a while.
But also there were two logos onthose shorts.

(11:10):
So they had to make shorts thatonly had one logo to meet the
world athletics stuff.
And so honestly, it was uh itwas like hope and hope.
We knew we were gonna get it,but we didn't have it yet.
And so it was really exciting.
Like Rob Mullock brought anentire suitcase of shorts with
him, and then the shorts showedup uh Dent Worlds at his hotel

(11:30):
room, uh, Rob Mullock fromUSATF.

SPEAKER_03 (11:32):
So cool.
And what's the initial reactionof these shirts?
Uh are they are theygroundbreaking?
Are they are they legit?
Like, what do you guys think?
It's a fashion statement, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (11:40):
It's a fashion statement.
We all can look like uh LiamMerrill right now.

SPEAKER_03 (11:44):
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah, he I think he like livesin his dude.
I don't think he takes this off.
Yeah.
Uh Tom, I gotta ask you as faras courses go.
Um, I know we've had a lot ofextensive conversations leading
up to worlds um just in generalregarding the different courses,
selection races, and things likethat.
These courses, I would sayoutside of the vertical and

(12:06):
mountain classic, seemed muchmore sky, like it seemed like
the skyrunners shined on them alot of it, a lot more.
They were they were tough, theywere rugged, uh, just kind of
out there.
Like, what was your initialthoughts on these courses?

SPEAKER_01 (12:18):
It it wasn't my initial thought, it was the
aftermath that to hear theseguys being like, that was way
harder than we thought.
That I mean, I think this reallyate up some of the guys, or some
of the athletes.
Um, it yeah, I think it was alot harder than they thought it
was gonna be.
Yep.

(12:38):
Um I'm not a hundred percentsure we we knew the distance, we
knew the vert.
So it's not either one of those,it's more so the actual terrain
that I think that that that gotthem.
Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 (12:54):
Paul, would you would you agree?
Was there any takeawaysspecifically course-wise that
you that really stuck out toyou?

SPEAKER_00 (12:59):
Well, I remember hearing from some of the
athletes that previewed thecourse, you know, when they were
previewing it, there weren'teven trail sections in some
sections.
You know, they're they'rerunning through figuring, well,
it's probably gonna go throughhere.
And so I do think that's part ofit, kind of like what Tom was
saying, is for those races, likethey kind of created trail by
putting flags across rocks.

(13:21):
And, you know, in some cases, Ithink there was a race two weeks
ahead before that.
There was a marathon.
So I heard from some of theathletes it was good that it
worn down the grass in spots.
Oh, other side note no oneexpected ground wasps.

SPEAKER_03 (13:35):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
We got well.
Oh my goodness.
Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 (13:40):
Everybody was stung.
Everybody was stung.
Yeah.

unknown (13:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (13:43):
Like in yeah, I forget who it was was talking
about it.
They're running along and all ofa sudden they see somebody ahead
of them like shaking wildly withtheir hands, and it's because
they just ran over a ground waspnest.
And it's like that perfect timeof year where the you know the
wasps are angry, the queen'sdead, and but they were just
everywhere, from what Iunderstood in in certain parts
of the races.

SPEAKER_03 (14:04):
Interesting.
That's crazy.
I mean hardly trained for that.
Yeah, it's like something youdon't.
I mean, I was talking to Jasminea few days before the race, and
I know she, Jasmine Louther, andI know she had spooked like a um
uh a wild boar on the course.
Like she like stepped over uhlike a like a tree trunk and it
was like hanging out underneathunderneath a bit.

(14:24):
And that was kind of cool.
I was like, oh wow, so there's alot of like crazy wildlife out
there, but wasps were notsomething I had on the bingo
cards.
Right, right.
Yeah, I don't think they dideither.
Yeah, exactly.
It's true.
Um all right.
Any any like initial reactionsand takeaways from like we I I I
want to break it up and talkabout the different courses,
like long trail, short trail,and stuff like that.

(14:45):
But before we do that, I do wantto talk about like any initial
reactions or takeaways like fromperformances, any performances
that stuck out to you guys thatwere just that kind of blew you
away, or um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (14:58):
I mean it's sad to say it.
It's sad to say it because it'syou know, Katie Scheid.
You know, you're like you expectit, but I think it dulls down
about how impressive it is.
You know what I mean?
We're we're so used to her justcrushing, and so you're like,
Yep, yep, she wants, but it it'sshe does so well, and I think it

(15:19):
it just waters it down becausewe we expect it, which is crazy.

SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
Yeah, yeah, and and I think even related to that,
um, I feel like we both got towitness uh, as I refer to the
cult of Jim and Katie, like thepressure on them to succeed,
every water stop or every aidstation, there's 10 people
filming it.
And it's like they don't have amoment's anonymity from the

(15:46):
moment they arrive there.
Like, you know, they could justbe hanging out and people are
gonna come up for selfies andeverything.
I admire, first of all, theirpatience with their fans.
Like it's impressive.
They like, sure, I'll do aselfie with you, and that's like
all day long.
But also, like, I yeah, it'slike uh Jim had more
competition, but Katie, like theexpectation was there.
And so the best she could do wasmeet expectations.

(16:09):
That's pretty crazy um when youhave all eyes on you like that.

SPEAKER_03 (16:13):
I find it really interesting too.
Something that really stuck outto me was, and and maybe this
was more personified on theshort trail versus the long
trail, just because like the twoathletes that I figured would
shine the most on the longtrail, because we just kind of
figure that Jim and KD are gonnado amazing.
But I just really got to say, Ihave a lot of respect for their
range because that course is noteasy, it's not super runnable.

(16:35):
There's a lot of technicality toit.
If anything, it's more of a skycourse.
Right.
Um, and you think that wouldfavor a different kind of
athlete, and yet that's stillJim and Katie figured it out and
still performed to theirhighest, uh, highest potential
on there, which is I don't know.
I gotta say that that's aninteresting thing because that's
a thread I kind of want to getinto with both of you as far as

(16:56):
like just talking about thecourses, where you guys can tell
me as much as you want to orwhat you think about this, but
it's a it's a weird worldchampionship where the course
itself, I feel like, favoredmore of the skyrunner.
If you're not good at technicalterrain, I feel like this stuff
ate you alive.
So did that pick then, did itpick the best person on the day,

(17:18):
or did it pick the worldchampion?
Like, what do you guys thinkabout that?

SPEAKER_01 (17:22):
I think we have to go all the way back to the
committee to to talk about thatbecause we're going into the
unknown as the committee when wehave like short and long trail
for resume spots, right?
And I think we've talked aboutthis before where you kind of
have to pick two absolute peoplethat fly.
Then you have to pick twocrushers that are just amazing

(17:44):
at climbers climbing.
And then you pick some utilityguys to hopefully get in the
middle.
Because we go into a blind.
We don't know what this courselooks like.
We've got the we've got it onpaper.
We've got, you know, fifty-threefifty-three miles and eighteen
thousand feet of we know nothingelse.
So I think it has to go back tothat where we uh Yeah, I think

(18:05):
that I mean, I think we did athe best job we could do
picking, just being like we needto get some of these people
because I mean we could if weknew what how technical it was
it would be, then we wouldprobably pick different
candidates, right?

SPEAKER_03 (18:18):
Do you think that I mean that you tell me, do you
think that would be like doesthat change the calculus then?
Kind of knowing like I think ithas to.

SPEAKER_01 (18:25):
I think it has to, right?

SPEAKER_03 (18:26):
Yeah.
Well, like, you know, Finnbrought this up and I thought it
was very interesting because hehad like mentioned a few really
good technical runners, likeKyle Richardson being one.
He's like, is is that like oursecret weapon, you know, with a
technical course or somethinglike that, like different type
of people, different types ofathletes, not just because like
if you do look at the spread forus on the American side, I forg

(18:47):
like I forget how many JFKwinners we had, like uh just on
the long trail for the men,quite a few, and in the short
trail too, with Seth.
So it's interesting.
Like uh I don't know.
I also feel like fitness isfitness.
So the best athlete on the dayis generally the best athlete
that's gonna win, I would guess,but it's hard to say, you know.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (19:06):
Well, and and I look at um you know, to me, one of
the biggest challenges wheneverwe have this race, and Tom kind
of said it, you get the GPX, youget the stats, and worlds is
always different.
Like I don't I don't care whereyou go, because there's never
any real description of footing.
Um, and even if they put somepictures out there, it's never

(19:27):
the same.
And like you can even say thatlike for Sonneby, we could take
pictures and show the elevationgain, and we're still gonna have
people come back and say, wow,it was totally different than
what I expected.
And I think that's part of thechallenge is there's always a
guesstimate.
And so you're balancing like whodo you think are the athletes
that are going to perform wellon a world stage and that

(19:47):
mixture of different people.
Like I was so psyched to seelike some of these like first
time on the team people, Jane,Ruby, they just crushed it.
Um, that was so exciting to see.
Like, and even them coming tothe A stations, like they were
focused, like beyond focused onjust coming in, getting their
stuff, leaving, and just sostrong.

(20:09):
So I think that to me was themost exciting part to see was
how well some athletes, Anna isanother one, how well some
athletes did the, you know, it'snot the first time they've been
in a competitive European race,but it's the first time on the
team.
And they just like showed whythey belong there, which was
great.

SPEAKER_03 (20:26):
I I do have one more, just I kind of like a
selection question for you guys.
And I don't know, Tom, I think Imight have mentioned this to you
before, but Paul, maybe you cananswer it or either of you.
Why is it different on thevertical, like the selection
wise?
Like, why do I have to go earnmy spot for vertical and classic
versus their resume spots forlong trail and short trail?

(20:48):
Like, why is it mixed up likethat?

SPEAKER_00 (20:50):
I think um I think it's a matter of being realistic
of people's seasons.
So if I'm gonna do the qualifierfor long trail, that has a huge
impact on what else I can planout in my race season, as
opposed to, you know, think ofsome of the elites who do the
Sark series.
They could do that race everyweekend eight weeks in a row and

(21:10):
they'd still be fresh.
And so that's why, because atone point we used to have like
multiple selection races for uhvertical and classic.
And at the end of the day, wefound one was the neatest way to
do it for the short races,because everybody can come in
pretty fresh to race that, andthen they could go do another
race the following weekend andthey're still recovered.

(21:32):
Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 (21:32):
Do you think there'll ever be a time because
it I just find it interesting,like the I don't know.
Do you think there'll ever be atime where we either expand the
teams, like there's moreathletes as the sport continues
to grow, or for the classic andvertical, if there will ever be
resume spots available?

SPEAKER_01 (21:51):
I don't know.
I I I think I yeah, I think forvertical and classic, I don't
think there really needs to be.
I think it need like if you wantto be on the team, I think you
need to be there.
That that needs to be a focus.
Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (22:07):
And and in terms of yeah, expanding the teams, it's
you have to also factor in likeuh yeah, Spain, US, Germany
could all field six-personteams.
Some people can only field four.
So I think there's a fairnessfactor there of why they
wouldn't expand because theywant to continue to encourage as
many countries as possible to beable to score for teams with the

(22:29):
screen scores and the trailstuff.

SPEAKER_03 (22:31):
Yeah, speaking of that, Uganda, dude, out of
nowhere.
I didn't like I did try to doresearch on them ahead of time,
couldn't find anything on theinternet, and they showed up.
Those guys are legit.

SPEAKER_01 (22:41):
They always show up, they show up every year.

SPEAKER_03 (22:43):
They do.
I know, I don't know why I wouldthink naively like it this year
wouldn't be a year where they doamazing.
Uh, it's it's just interesting.
Their athletes are crazy.
Um, all right, let's let's kindof double back then, and I want
to talk about some differentstorylines within the different
races.
So, one being long trail.
We had some, I I guess there wasum Hillary had to kind of jump

(23:05):
up and do the double um afterdoing the VK.
Can you guys talk about kind ofthe storylines that unfolded
with the long trail specificallyfor Team USA?

SPEAKER_00 (23:15):
Well, so and uh Tom, how about you do the the men and
I can share just because of thebackground there of um uh so Jen
freak fall training on thecourse and uh tweaked her
hamstring pretty badly and kindof was a wait and see.
And then our team uh PT personCarol evaluated her in person

(23:38):
and kind of the feeling was likeshe tried Jen tried to run 10
minutes, and by the end of 10minutes, it was real
questionable.
And like if she was doing a 5K,maybe she'd do it.
But it's like that to to riskher whole career potentially by
turning around and doing the80K, it just wasn't uh wasn't
worth it.
I actually admire her becausethat has to stink to get there

(24:01):
and be that close.
This is the second time this hashappened to her.
It happened in Thailand as wellfor long trail.
But we had to give Hillary aheads up.
Like Jen had said, this might bean issue.
She had reached out to us andwasn't sure and we would know
close to the race, but we had toget a hold of Hillary before she
left so she could bring all hergear.
And so I think it was Tom andAnita both reached out to

(24:23):
Hillary and just checking, areyou on board to do this?
And uh she was like, sure, sure.

SPEAKER_01 (24:30):
That's a lie.
That's a lie.
Okay.
All right, go ahead.
No, she stepped up.
Yeah, we had we had to convinceher, we had to sweet talk her.
Actually, I just bullied her theentire the entire time until she
said yes.

SPEAKER_00 (24:45):
But like she joked about she had one 20-mile road
run and a bunch of shortvertical stuff as her training
for her 80k race.
So it's it's mind-blowing to methat like she made the cutoffs,
she finished, she was strong.
Like, um, and honestly, shewasn't even as sore.
Like the next day, I expected tosee her like hobbling around the

(25:06):
streets.
She wasn't, it was crazy.

SPEAKER_01 (25:09):
She had a blast too.
She was coming into the aidstation, she was having an
absolute blast.
So yeah, and she's I mean,that's her personality.
That's I mean, she's the therecan't anything, no, no raining
clouds in her life, I don'tthink.

SPEAKER_00 (25:22):
She loves and I and I should clarify too, like it
was too close to worlds.
We did have another alternate.
It was too close to worlds topull somebody else in on the
team at the last minute.

SPEAKER_03 (25:32):
Right, right.
And no, I think I think it was agreat choice given Hillary's
background, too, withskyrunning, also with the
high-end ultra running stuff,doing lots of hundred miles.
Like, she's got a lot ofexperience kind of across a a
breadth of distances.
So yeah, I think it's I mean, ifthere was anybody you were gonna
pull up to do it, like that'sthat's definitely the person to
step in and you know, I thinkit's a good selection.

SPEAKER_01 (25:55):
And Tom, I was gonna say you're gonna talk about the
man you want to just Yeah, Imean I if we're we're just
talking about the the one DNF, Imean uh you know Caleb just had
a a weird fall.
I mean that's that's part of thegame, you know.
He uh I think he fell aroundmile ten or so.
He walked out to the road, hiswife was there, you know, she

(26:16):
picked him up.
It was uh just a freak thing.
So but it's it's interesting toyou know it's how fast your day
can end.
How you know?
It's you're you know, especiallysince you're out there for I
mean, he was out there for weeksbefore training.
Nothing, no, no accidents andjust any given Sunday, right?

(26:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
Well I remember Jen said she was a mile from her car
when the fall happened.
It like it wasn't she was youknow way deep in the wilderness,
it was just a freak thing.
Like to me, what's mostimpressive is those I feel like
anybody talking about the raceahead of time, Caleb and Jen
were mentioned as part of ourscoring members of the team.

SPEAKER_03 (26:56):
100%.

SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
And so to me, like the admirable part is silver
medal still for both teams.
Like people like Adam andAllison and Shay, and that like
they just all stepped up.
Um, and you know, they alreadywere doing well, but like coming
into that last aid station, itwas a lot of like encouragement,
and a few of them they werehurting coming into that aid

(27:18):
station.
And it wasn't like they just had5k left.
They had a big climb, they had adescent and everything.
And it was just like that to meis like what's so amazing is
that team aspect.
They were like, uh-oh, allright, I gotta do it.
I gotta step up, I gotta keepgoing.

SPEAKER_03 (27:33):
Where were you guys stationed throughout the long
trail, like as far as uh forcrew and stuff like that?
Were you constantly moving fromlocation to location?

SPEAKER_01 (27:40):
Or two different locations, yeah.
Okay, yep.
They were about an hour and 10,15 minutes apart.
So we actually had to split upuh just because Wamsley was
about to get to the second aidstation while some were still
coming through the other.
So we were we had to we had tohaul.

unknown (27:57):
Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 (27:58):
Is it let's talk about that because I mean I
don't think a lot of peoplerealize this like long trail and
short trail aid stations aren'twhat we're used to, right?
We're used to you you have yourfive friends, your wife's there,
she's massaging you, you'regetting your favorite food.
You have a table that's threefeet long with 12 people stuff

(28:18):
on it, and there's only threevolunteers or three crew allowed
for the whole team.
So we need to be super organizedand and we need to know exactly
what each person has.
When they come in and throw itdown, we need to know where that
goes next.
Because if they are if they'redoing a vest swap and they need

(28:38):
it at the next age station, nowwe still have to have everything
else to refill that and get itto the next age station.
So there's a there's a lot ofcomplexity to that.
Um and it I mean it it soundseasy, but it's not.
It is it's complete mayhem whenwhen three runners come in at
the same time.
Yeah, there it's you know, it'sall hands on deck kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 (28:58):
So did different people have different jobs or
like how did you guys like breakthat up?

SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
Yeah, I was gonna say I feel like it was primarily
Tom and Anita were fillingstuff, and then sometimes Jen
was actually part of our crewthen, so she was helping as
well.
And then like I was telling themwhere to go because like you
have to picture it's a ski arealodge where they've set up the
tables in a maze for all thecountries.

(29:24):
So you're literally goingwinding around and you're trying
to tell them where the USA tableis.
And you know, you're coming in,you're exhausted, and
everything.
So it's like getting them there.
And then we also had anotherperson, Josh, and sometimes
Jason, uh, were out on courseahead of the aid station.
So we'd have a five minutewarning on who was coming in.

(29:45):
So we'd make sure their bagswere the most prominent ones,
too.
Um, and then, like Tom said,like at one point for long
trail, he was like, Anita and Ineed to go.
And so myself, Josh, and uh Jenstayed to get the rest of the
women's team.
To get them, you know, and thenwe packed up and moved over, but
we even had to rush becausethere was some stuff from that

(30:06):
first aid station that Tomneeded for the women as they
came into the second aidstation.
And and you're just like kindof, and honestly, you're
navigating a little bit ofcultural stuff of the aid
stations aren't necessarily setup by runners.
They're set up by I need to fit70 countries in this room.
So it's a little funky, and youwant to be polite but firm on

(30:29):
yes, this is our table, andwe're allowed to have people
here.
And and so there's a little bitof that fun navigation too.
Chaos.
Oh, and then the the well, youhave to talk about it.
It wasn't at the aid station.
There were two uh bolts.
So the second aid station?
No, it was the first aidstation.

(30:50):
So this is kind of the funnypart, James.
And like this is the stuff likeit, it's like adventure.
They give you a pin of where togo for the aid station.
Well, we get there, and there'suh, as Josh described it, a
walking dead level gate at theentrance to the ski area, and
it's completely dark becausesunrise there was like 7 45, and

(31:10):
we're like trying to figure outwhether to go in.
Well, I called one of the aidstation or one of the officials
or whatever, and they're like,Yeah, you can open the gate.
You know, I didn't read theSpanish.
Tom read it later on.
Essentially said, Don't leavethe gate open because there's
bulls and cows inside.
Like literally, there were wildanimals, you know, just free

(31:30):
grazing.
Well, um, so we get into the aidstation, we're trying to figure
out where to set up.
Well, uh, after a few peoplecame in, there were two bulls
trotting down the mountain, andthey almost gored somebody, not
a runner, but a fan.
Like they almost gored them andthey just kept going.
And you're like, Yeah, we're notin the US right now.

(31:51):
Oh my god.
That is nuts.

SPEAKER_01 (31:53):
Yeah, it was way closer than it needed to be.

SPEAKER_00 (31:57):
Yes, yes.
Like it was like you're watchingit.
You know how like you see like aslow motion play in a sporting
event.
Oh, yeah, and it like seems morepainful.
It was moving in slow motion.
We're like watching this bullgoing, no, no, we just missed
him.

SPEAKER_01 (32:11):
So when it happened, I'm like, where's Sarah Alonso
for this?
Because she was she literally itshe's like, I'm right here.

SPEAKER_00 (32:18):
And she's then she's showing us her MRI pictures to
show where she was gored andeverything.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (32:24):
Was it so it I was it a cow or was it a it was a
bull that attacked her?

SPEAKER_01 (32:28):
No, it was I think it was just a regular, uh, just
a steer, yeah, a cow.
Uh these these were bulls, thesewere bullshit, yeah.
They had horns.

SPEAKER_03 (32:35):
Yeah, that's not what you don't want to get hit
by one of those.
That's yeah, that's yeah, youdon't want to be a matador.
That's not not fun, not ideal.

SPEAKER_00 (32:41):
No, but like kind of the adventure there, like that's
what I mean.
Like, it's funny.
Okay, you had to open this gate.
Like in the US, if I drove up toa ski area and there was a giant
gate locked, I wouldn't openthat gate and go in.
I'd expect.
This was just like, yep, just goin, just close the gate, and
also it's like those are some ofthe funny navigational things
that happen as you're trying tofigure out, yeah, okay, this is

(33:04):
where it is.
Yeah, and you keep going, andlike, and then we got there, and
like there's an alarm going offin the building, which wasn't
us, it was the eight stationvolunteers that set it off.
But part of me was thinking, didthat go off because we opened
the gate?
Like, and that's just kind ofthe part of the fun adventure
stuff on the side as you getinto the eight stations.

SPEAKER_01 (33:21):
I love it because it's not that fun at the moment.
Now it's funny.
Yes, now it's funny.

SPEAKER_03 (33:28):
It's the stories that like you know, people
follow the race and try to learnmore about it, whether it's on
on social media, and but theseare not the stories that get
told.
So I appreciate you guys likethe bulls.
That's that's wild.
Like that's it's interestingstuff.
Well, where was it hard to getfrom location to location?
Like, was it in in a navigablecourse, like like being able to
just drive from A to B or no,like not at all?

SPEAKER_01 (33:51):
I mean, yeah.
I mean, it wasn't short course,aid station one was a pain, but
the rest of them were werepretty easy.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (33:58):
It it was more like the hour and 10 minutes or
whatever it was.
It was because there was amountain between the two aid
stations, so you had to likedrive way down and then go
around to the other side of themountain to get there.

SPEAKER_01 (34:11):
Little unknown fact about Spain, they love
roundabouts.
Didn't know that.
Uh there's about 47 every mile.
It's it's ridiculous.
You just go through roundaboutafter roundabout after
roundabout all the time.

SPEAKER_00 (34:27):
Yeah, there were 30 roundabouts between Cal Franc
and the Barcelona airportbecause we were bored and
counted them.

SPEAKER_03 (34:34):
That's terrible.
Uh all right, let's let's putoff eight stations and long
trail.
I want to get into uh let's talkabout the mountain classic and
the vertical.
I probably let's start about thevertical first.
Like the first thing that stoodout to me for the vertical was
just Anna Gibson.
Like uh as far as on the women'steam.
Like, dude, like I mean Anna'scapabilities are kind of crazy.

(34:56):
Like she it just really like shereally blew me away.
And then same with the men'steam.
I was very impressed with themen's team, especially after I I
heard that Joe had taken a fallscouting and just didn't have
the day that he wanted to haveand had a rough day.
I know Tyler got back behindsome of the group with a kind of
the mass crazy start um and wasable to kind of pull it
together.

(35:16):
The men's team like stuck out tome as well.
So maybe if there's any storiesor just anything that like
stands out to you guys, um putthat out there.

SPEAKER_01 (35:24):
Yeah, I mean, I was on course.
Uh I went from the top from thesummit down uh to what about one
mile, and I mean it it wascrazy, Steve.
It was it was no joke.
Um also it hit it was super coldthat night, so there was frost
on everything.
So it was it was really slick.

(35:45):
Um but to see them and how andhow hard they were working, it
was awesome.
It was it was unbelievable.
Uh I think Cam Smith kind ofgets you know looked over, but
man, does he work hard?
When when he sees that he canpass people and he's almost
there, he just tucks his chinand and he just digs.
He's a dog, man.
11th.

SPEAKER_03 (36:05):
Like, yeah, he's yeah, love Cam.
Good human too.
Um anything more on the women'sside or anything that stuck out
to you guys, Paul or or Tom?

SPEAKER_00 (36:14):
Well, one thing I thought was really cool is
afterwards talking to Anna, um,she was excited that her
schedule finally worked out tobe at Worlds.
And to me, that's like areminder of how popular Worlds
has gotten.
You know, I was doing otherstuff, um, you know, track
stuff, but also then, you know,in Golden Trail series or

(36:36):
whatever.
And so to me, that's reallyexciting that the schedule
worked out this year, that wecould have the best of the best
vying for the team andeverything.
And that was just so cool to seeher out there.
You know, she looked just likeit's gonna be.
She was just crushing it.
Or the way, you know, I saw thelive stream of uh Broken Arrow,
and just, you know, I I loveseeing that that we truly have

(36:58):
our best top people there atthese races.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (37:01):
Yeah, I don't think we know how good Lauren are I
like, I think between LaurenGregory, I think a lot of the
team, but like Lauren Gregoryand Anna Gibson, like I don't
think like we've reached theceiling yet.
I think we have years to go tosee.
I think like there's potentiallike world champions, I think,
in this group, even though whatcame out this year.

SPEAKER_01 (37:19):
And I think that'll expand too when when companies
start to recognize that worldsis cool.

SPEAKER_03 (37:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (37:25):
Like right now, you know, these guys are doing this
zero bonuses.

SPEAKER_03 (37:29):
Right, right.
Let's talk about that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (37:32):
It's a shame, man.
Like some people turn down thespots because it's a financial
burden, really.
I mean, when it comes down toit, you know, if if your if your
team or your company that'ssponsoring you is is not backing
this, you have to, and you know,you can get a bonus somewhere
else.
You have to put the other theother race in the forefront,

(37:53):
right?

SPEAKER_03 (37:53):
Did you guys read Caleb's Substack?
I mean, there was some he threwsome ideas.
I highly recommend if youhaven't read it yet.
But like there, and I can linkit in the show notes.
He just threw out some goodideas for like 2027, and one of
them was discussing just thebuy-in from our individual
sponsors um for this team.
Like, obviously, you know, theteam is kitted out in Nike, you

(38:16):
wear your brand shoes thatyou're you know that you're
sponsored by, yada yada, yada.
But it's the I think he threwout some ideas for it.
How do we get the individualbrands more bought in on the
world side, whether it like likeyou said, whether it's from a
bonus perspective and havebuy-in from there, um, or just
buy-in in general, get themexcited.
Maybe there's a way that we canwork something out so they can

(38:39):
the brands can sponsor somethingso they can be a part of it as
well.
So there's mutual buy-in.
I don't know.
There was like a million ideasthrown out, but yeah, I think
it's I I think that's how we getthis thing to the next level.
So where it's competing, um, notthat it already isn't, but it is
competing against I guess theUTMB.
But how do we get this thingbigger to where it is the real

(38:59):
like the world worldchampionships and there's tons
of buy-in?
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (39:03):
I mean one of the things next year or two yeah,
I'm sorry, in two years, itwon't compete, right?
So it'll be in November.
Right.
So there'll be enough timebetween between those.
And then the other thing I wasgonna say is I mean, the
Olympics, you know, they theyfigured it out with the brands.
Right.
You know, the best of the bestis going, whether their sponsor
who their sponsor is, they'regoing.

(39:24):
So that you know, they theyfigured it out.
I mean, it you know somebodysmarter than us can figure this
out, but I mean it's it it'sdefinitely doable.

unknown (39:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (39:33):
Well, and I was it's funny you say that, Tom, because
I was just gonna point that out.
I feel like James, 10 years ago,uh US track championship, well,
maybe not US, but like worldtrack teams, Olympic teams,
there was much more of a battleof whether they, you know, the
swoosh and everything.
But in the last two Olympics, Ifeel like we've seen it where,

(39:54):
you know, you have on athletesthere, you have Brooks athletes,
you have Adidas athletes, andthey're still wearing the
swoosh, and those cup, but thosecompanies are very interested in
having their athletes there.
And I'm hoping that same mindsetwill move over to this world
champs as well.
Because it's the same thing.
I feel like it's just, you know,we're 10 years behind the track
world in that, but it's the samechallenge.

SPEAKER_03 (40:15):
Do you think it's maybe just a matter of getting,
I don't know, like you guysgetting the race director, or
not the race director, sorry,the the athlete managers in a
room and just having aconversation, you know, some of
the the decision makers at withBrooks, Hoka, Vospert, whatever,
you know, getting havingconversations individually with
them or getting them all withsome kind of you know, summit or

(40:37):
discussion, just to figuring outways that we can just get buy-in
from the brands moving forwardor get get people to connect
more on it.
Because it's the thing, like itis it's a special thing for us
as athletes to go do somethinglike this.
So they might as well supportit.
Like you, if you quote unquotesupport your athlete, you're
gonna support this, you know.
I don't know.
It's kind of like my take on it,but you would think that's how

(40:59):
it worked.

SPEAKER_01 (41:00):
That'd be way too easy.

SPEAKER_03 (41:02):
Uh it's true, it's true.

SPEAKER_00 (41:03):
I will say Brooks had a big presence.
Oh, yeah.
They had multiple reps there,you know, multiple people from
there, Adam Chase and others.
Um, and they obviously had a lotof athletes there.
And they they celebrated themeven, you know, though people
weren't wearing Brooks clothinguh to race in.
So I feel like Brooks boughtinto it.
Um, and now it's hoping to getother brands on board as well to

(41:27):
buy into it.
Um, I also think like nothinglike popularity and FOMO um to
get you there, of you know, it'sit's whether you know live
stream is perfect or not.
There's a lot of attention onthis event.
Like Free Trail was there.
Yeah, they've never been therebefore.
That to me is another statementof, you know, we're getting more
and more people on siteinterested in this event.

(41:49):
And I think that will over timechange because, you know, why do
they go to Chamonix?
Because there's a scene.
Like it isn't just the races,there's a scene, and so we want
our athletes seen at that scene.
I think it's getting worlds,it's getting closer, but it's
getting to be that scene aswell.

SPEAKER_03 (42:06):
I I think South Africa has potential too.
I think it's that that area ofof of the world, just the
infrastructure perspective.
Like they already put on UTCT.
It's kind of actually, do youguys know how that like
interacts with UTCT in November?
Because that's a November raceas well.

SPEAKER_01 (42:22):
Like I think they're gonna kind of I I talked to Stu
for a little bit about it, and Ithink he may do it just like
Austria was.
So Austria, I think, had theirAdidas Terix race basically the
whole week, and then it justkind of flopped over and they
just kept going.
So it was almost like a week, aweek and a half worth of races

(42:43):
for all the distances.

SPEAKER_00 (42:45):
And I remember in Argentina in 2019, that was the
first time they had short, theyhad mountain, and then they also
had a long mountain, and thatwas part of a um Argentine 42K.
I forget the the name of therace, but they had a citizens
race as well.
And then they had the eliteraces.
And so I that's what I thinkthey'll do.

(43:06):
Because honestly, James, thathelps fund it.

SPEAKER_02 (43:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (43:09):
Too.
Um, you know, hey, I canparticipate in the races that's
part of the national you knowthe world championships.
That's gotta help stew in termsof funding, you know, and more
exposure if you could make thething a whole week-long event.

SPEAKER_03 (43:19):
Which would be sweet.
I mean, it's amazing for thesport, it's good for everyone
involved, if anything.
I I do have a question forqualifiers for 2027.
I know we're so early thinkingabout this, but like I've heard
ideas thrown around and Iactually really liked it.
Not that it's it's easy to makeit happen, but why don't we just
make UTCT the qualifier for2027, like in 2026?

SPEAKER_01 (43:40):
Could that be who's going there?
I I have no idea.
That's the question.

SPEAKER_03 (43:45):
Who's got the travel budget for that to go there's
any private benefactors outthere that want to but I mean
it's wishful thinking, it couldbe cool.
I don't know.
It's gonna be interesting.
Do we even have an idea yet ofwhat like the 2026 U.S.
Mountain Running Championshipsis gonna be yet?
Like of where or what?

SPEAKER_00 (44:02):
No, no, for 2026 we don't.
They haven't been selected yet.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (44:07):
Cool, cool.
Oh, sorry, I'm a little ahead ofmyself there.
Um, all right, let's let'sbounce back to the races.
I do want to talk a little bitabout short trail because that
stuck out to me as well.
Um a lot of newbies.
Like, I really loved seeing Janeand Ruby absolutely crush it.
Like, was there any takeawaysfrom from their races or
anything from that?

SPEAKER_01 (44:29):
I would just say the composure, like to see them come
in for being newbies, they werecool, calm, collected, just
business as usual, which wasinteresting.
No, yeah, it was it was it wasawesome to watch.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (44:46):
Well, and even like Tabor, who's self-professed of
that was not her course.
Um, she was pushing it cominginto the aid stations.
Like it was really impressive tosee where she wanted to be.
I felt super bad for Helenbecause she had fallen knee
injury like a couple weeksbefore and it showed up like on
the first descent.
And so I honestly give her ahuge amount of credit.

(45:08):
She could have dropped.
She didn't have the day shewanted, and like she knew that
coming into the first aidstation.
She was saying, she's like, myknees.
I will not say the word, butyeah, no, she's like, My knees F
and it's done.
Um, and like so to keep going ona course like that, I just have
huge admiration that that shewould stick it out to finish the
race at world.

(45:29):
But just to, yeah, just likeit's it was really cool to me to
see like it wasn't just thepeople with the most experience
who did well, it was some of thenewcomers, and that was so cool.

SPEAKER_03 (45:40):
Yeah, I don't think we know how good Jane and Ruby
are yet.
I think that I think we're stillfiguring it out, especially like
I know Ruby like had a greatrace at Broken Arrow, so did
Jane as well, but Jane even moreso like now with like first with
the Grand Teton and then um youknow destroying it on the like
the I would have loved to haveseen her too on the Mountain
Classic Circuit because it shewins just about every Cirque
Series race she races.

(46:01):
So she would have been kind of agood selection for that as well
had she shown up to Sunapi.
Like it would have beeninteresting if she would have
tried to mix it up there, butyeah, a lot of lot of range,
just a very talented, a lot ofvery new talented athletes in
the sport, which is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 (46:15):
I feel like we this whole thing we've just been
tiptoeing around our boy.
Like we let's let's just goright in to talk about Noah.

SPEAKER_03 (46:22):
Dude, I gotta say, man, Noah, you know what?
I I think you know what, man, Igotta give Noah his flowers.
I think a lot of people uh on alet's just say, like, on a team
that had Eli Hemming, DavidSinclair, Mekelino, Seth, it was
a deep team.
And like on paper, it's so deep.
And and Noah, I mean, you knowwhat?

(46:43):
I I think what tipped me off wasNoah, like has just been very
consistent all year.
That broken arrow result wasdamn good.
And then had a great result atseries and all that I feel like
was a little overlooked.
I I think people weren't reallylooking at that, and then sure
as shit, like it had an amazingday out there.
So yeah, I gotta give Noah likehuge props.

SPEAKER_00 (47:03):
Yeah, he I mean, he like he passed somebody in the
last like hundred meters on theroad.
Like that, even that was cool tosee.
He was just like, I'm going forit.
And um, you know, he he lookedlike a happy track athlete at
that point and to even have thethought to be able to do that.
But yeah, he he just had such agreat day.
Like I feel like he pushed it,he stuck with others, and then

(47:24):
others faded.
He kept going.
I think he took a big risk to dothat.
Like, yeah, he may have knownhis fitness, but he still took a
risk to do that, and itobviously paid off.
Um, that was I was so psyched tosee him do that.
Plus New Hampshire roots.
That's right.

SPEAKER_03 (47:38):
Remember, we're celebrating that.
Yes.
Another New Hampshire guy.

SPEAKER_00 (47:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (47:42):
I I do have a question for you guys.
Uh, out of and this is maybemore this is more of a selection
question.
Like, being as though Eli andDavid both had CCC in their
legs, and it was very evident,and this is no disparagement.
I think they they ran greatraces.
I'd know both those guys,immense respect for both of
them.
Do you think in future years, ifit is that close, is there gonna

(48:05):
be more of a conversation likearound those things?
Or do you have to just let, youknow, like how it's a it's a
weird conversation to have,right?

SPEAKER_01 (48:13):
Because like you know No, we we had that
conversation over and over andover.
And how do we what do you do?
Right.
Do you tell me that they're notselected because they're doing
another race that they can makemoney at?
Right.
That's that's not fair.
It's not it's that's it's it'sthat sticky money thing again,

(48:36):
right?

SPEAKER_03 (48:36):
It's just I mean, look at look at Sinclair.
I mean, he had such a great CCCresult that like, I mean, we all
knew David's like one of thebest in the world, but like
life-changing result for him ina lot of ways.
Like, he's able to be afull-time athlete now.
That might have not happened hadhe not gone to CCC and had an
amazing day.
So it's a it's a tough, it's atough conversation, right?
It's like I don't know, youknow, like we need more buy-in

(48:59):
from the brands to have thosebut bonuses, so you don't have
to make that choice.
Like that's that really isreally what it comes down to,
you know.
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (49:06):
It's funny too because we we we get some heat
as the committee being like,well, they were yeah, we know
we're well aware that they wererunning this these races.
We've we've hinned and hawed forfor a month over it, too.
Don't think that we haven't likegone up and like, all right,
this is a problem.
You think they can do it?
Who can do it?
What would we have done if someof the top long trail also

(49:29):
wanted to do UTMB?

SPEAKER_02 (49:31):
Right?

SPEAKER_01 (49:31):
Where would we have stood there?
I mean, we're not gonna stop Jimand Katie, you know, from from
doing that and then coming to doworlds.
It's it's it's on the athlete onthat.
It's we can only put forwardwhat we you know what we decide.

SPEAKER_00 (49:48):
Well, and and both both Eli and David afterwards
did say um, like they could feelCCC in their legs, but I think
both, like when Tom was talkingearlier about how hard the
courses were, I don't thinkanybody expected the short trail
course to be that hard.

SPEAKER_02 (50:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (50:04):
So it like if it had been a little less elevation or
a little bit less, you know,ridiculous straight up climbs, I
think they both would have beenmore recovered.
Uh that that probably doesn'tmake sense to say it that way,
but it was like because thisrace was so hard, I don't think
anybody factored in how hardthat short trail race was gonna
be.

SPEAKER_03 (50:24):
Yeah.
Yeah, that course was gnarly.
I Mikelino was out there likeweeks and weeks before, and I
had him telling me all about it,and I was like, oh man, don't
cut, don't cut the switchbacks.
Like that is is uh it's it yeah,it just seemed gnarly and tough.
And I don't know.
I felt I genuinely just feltlike out of, and maybe I'm
naive, but like I just kind offigured like they would just be
recovered in time and it reallywouldn't be that big of a deal.

(50:47):
But I guess the level of thattype of race for 100K and going
that hard, like really does likejust neuromuscular fatigue, like
really just like that's probablyplays a small role.

SPEAKER_00 (50:59):
So well, and I think if anybody can recover, like
David with his Nordicbackground, yeah, and some of
like 20, yeah.
Um, I think this was before likethere was a big focus on worlds,
but 2019 he ran the classicrace.
It was two insane up and downlaps.
And then we needed somebody forthe long trail, which was a

(51:19):
trail marathon that Jim won, andPoopy was second.
Um, David said, Oh, I'll runthat too the next day.
And he finished like 13thbecause his legs gave out on the
last.
Like he's just such an animal.
To me, if anybody was going tobe able to recover off of that,
it was him.
And that to me shows you howtough the course was.

SPEAKER_03 (51:39):
Dude is, yeah, he's one of the best in the world,
easily.
Like, I have such immenserespect for both of them, him
and Eli as well.
But like just uh some of thelike the mythical stories I've
heard of David Sinclair, likeit's it's it's cool, it's
interesting.
Uh I got him, dude.
I had him on the podcast theother day.
I got him talking about likelactate threshold heart rate and
stuff like that.
The guy is a brain, also, likehe knows his training so well.

(52:02):
Um yeah, I'll save that.
I'll like let listeners listento that episode so they can hear
all like he he was like prettyopen about his heart rate data,
and I was like, oh my god, likeyou can sustain like 195 beats
per minute for that long.
Like that's nuts.
Anyway, um, yeah, guy's a freak.
Anything do you want to do youwant to get into U20 as well?
Because I didn't follow thoseraces or that race enough uh to

(52:23):
be able to commentate onanything aspect of it.
I know like you and I have hadsome discussions on U20 um, you
know, in the past as well, and Ido want to get them on the
podcast, but maybe open it upand talk a little bit about
their race as well.

SPEAKER_00 (52:35):
Yeah, well, I think there's a couple like really
cool milestones.
Um 10 years ago, people doingU20 were like, oh, this is
interesting.
I get to wear a US uniform, andyou'd never see them ever again.
And that's changing where trailis becoming a huge option for
people.
Like one of the Sierra Wall,like when she was shopping

(52:56):
around to colleges, she had likea clause in there of, if I make
the team, I want to be able todo it.
Will you let me do that if I runfor you?
Like nobody would have done that10 years ago.
Um, I love seeing that.
All of the uh U-20 came in withsome level of mountain
experience.
Three of them came in from theU18 team from Spain last year.

(53:18):
And it's just, you know, you'regetting people like Sofia
Rodriguez just set the staterecord for cross-country in
Washington State at age 16, Ithink, at like a 16 and change
for cross-country at age 16.
So it's like to me, we're justgetting better and better
athletes for the U-20 team.
And then we dropped thecurveball in of full Uganda and

(53:39):
Kenyan teams in front of themthis year.
Like, if I think that thatdidn't happen in the past, uh,
they might have one or two U-20athletes from Kenya or Uganda.
And so the fact that the boyswere like, I think they were a
point out of third, and we hadtwo guys in the top 10, like
that's incredible.
Like competing at the worldstage like this.

(54:00):
Um, you know, they're competingagainst Spain, got to train on
the course, I'm sure, and thingslike that.
Like, show you the level of thecompetition.
The woman who won U20 two yearsago was from Spain, and she won
U18 the same year.
I think she was like seventh oreighth this year.
Like that's how much thecompetition has gone up.

(54:21):
But to me, the big story thereis like we just have young
people that are looking at trailand saying, I want to do trail.
And that's the best thing thatcould ever happen to our side of
the sport, is not like, oh, I'mgonna run track and this is a
fun side thing.
No, they want to do trail, andthat's just so cool to see.

SPEAKER_03 (54:39):
It's interesting.
So that's the conversation then.
Like, are these kids realizingnow, especially getting to see
your Katie Scheid's JimWalmsleys and a lot of these
athletes that are competing atthe professional level, these
kids come in.
Do they are they fullyunderstanding, like, yeah, like
I can make this a career, likeafter college?
Like, so that once we have thatattachment and buy-in from a lot

(55:00):
of these college kids, I thinkthat that's that's gonna raise
the sport up so much.

SPEAKER_00 (55:04):
Well, you've got you've had Oakley Ulsman on a
couple times.
She's like the huge ambassadorfor doing this type of stuff.
And Tom, go ahead.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (55:11):
I was just gonna say uh I drove the the girls to the
start line.
Um, I don't I'm not sure ifthey're thinking about this as a
career.
Uh these girls have their livesplanned out.
They're talking about whatthey're going to school for,
where they're going to be nextyear.
Like they're like full-on uhboss women.

(55:31):
Like they're they're they'vealready got their business
planned out.
And so this I think is I thinkthey'll be in in the sport, but
I don't think they're gonna Idon't think they're gonna want
or need uh financial backing.
I think they're ready to go.

SPEAKER_03 (55:46):
I love it.
I love it.
Yeah, it's dude, it's it's it'sI don't know.
The sport is changing so muchnow.
Like we talked about offlinebefore, like uh before we
started recording, like just howcompetitive it's gotten in the
last few years.
And like every year it seems toget like five to ten percent
better, like easily with justthe amount of depth now at some
of these races.
Um yeah, it it's it'sinteresting.

(56:09):
So it's good to see the future'sbright, especially for the
American side.
Because like, I don't know,years ago, I don't know, I
always feel like the Europeanathletes were just so different,
like they grew up doingdifferent sports.
It wasn't necessarilycross-country and track, it was
we came from cross country andtrack, and it was just a
different thing.
Um, and now you kind of see itmeeting in the middle on the
mountain running scene, and andwe're we're competing on a world

(56:31):
stage now.
I feel like I don't know, youguys can speak to this better
than I can, but d do you feellike we got more respect
worldwide?
Like the Americans like showedup and like really performed.

SPEAKER_00 (56:44):
Oh, that's I don't know whether, like, I feel like
the last two worlds we've hadsome amazing performances as
well.
Um I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 (56:55):
Like these were all like super like percent of truly
our best.

SPEAKER_01 (57:03):
It's a great question.
I yeah, I don't I'm not I'm notsure how to answer that.
I I maybe just from from mystandpoint, I thought we were
always always there.
I don't think it's likesomething new.
I think that the top countrieshave much more respect for each
other right now.
I think they they see thatanybody can take this.

(57:24):
I don't think there's a big of agap between the top, I would say
top five countries.
I think that they're all one ortwo people away from from gold.

SPEAKER_00 (57:37):
Well, and and related to that, Canada won a
team medal for the first timeever.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (57:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (57:42):
Um, I remember talking to one of the uh British
coaches and they were saying,like, you know, used to be it
was some version of the US andItaly and Great Britain and
maybe one other country on thepodium.
And now we've got you knowpeople from Sweden and people
from Switzerland and just allover Spain and other places, as

(58:04):
well as the African countries.
And that to me is really cool.
Like, it's one thing to be thedream team, but if it's the
dream team without competition,but now, like, you know, getting
on the podium at all is probablymore of an achievement now than
a gold medal might have been 15years ago.
So it's like that's that's whatI love to see is um you really

(58:24):
have to earn a spot to get onthe podium now.

SPEAKER_03 (58:27):
When you said Sweden, the first thing that
came to my mind was TobyAlexanderson.
Like, yo, like what aperformance! Like, if there was
a performance of the the thelike of the weekend, like that's
one of them.
Uh, what was your takeaway fromthat?
Because that was so dominant.

SPEAKER_00 (58:43):
I know my first takeaway was wait, that was the
first woman.
Yeah.
So because you're like, it's youknow, you kind of have in your
head when people are gonna comethrough, and I I forgot she was
racing, and it was just insanehow far ahead she was.

SPEAKER_01 (58:59):
Yeah, it's crazy, absolutely yeah.
I I I mean, I was on themountain watching it, and I
watching her pass some of ourtop men, I was like, I don't
know what's happening right now.

SPEAKER_03 (59:12):
She's a yeah, monster, total monster.
Um, is there anything you feellike we didn't hit?
Any topics you wanna you guyswant to get to because we're at
about an hour.
I feel like we're gonna have to.

SPEAKER_00 (59:22):
Yeah, I was gonna say one one last thing I did
want to give a shout out to iswe were talking about team and
everything.
Women's classic race.

SPEAKER_03 (59:30):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (59:30):
Oh my goodness.
Um, like Lauren, she passessomebody in the last 1500
meters, almost got fourth.
But then to watch Anna andCourtney work together was so
cool.
Like they were working like across country team trying to
place.
Um, I think they were shootingfor gold, but you know, they got
they got the position they didbecause of the way they were

(59:52):
pushing.
Um, and that's something you'renot gonna see at a regular race.
And to me, that was like thewhole magic of.
world is I'm gonna work with myteammate to score.
And they certainly did in thatrace.
It was so cool to see.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:06):
Very special.
I mean it was a special team forme too because like I don't know
I felt like we got to followthem from Sunnepe when we picked
the team and or when they intheir spot and then all the way
through to this journey to wherethey're racing on race day and
this is kind of the culminationof it.
It was very special.
It was very fun to watch bothand and the men's team as well
the Mountain Classic like such alike such a deep deep field such

(01:00:28):
a like competitive group andyeah it was it was very very fun
to follow.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:32):
Yeah and I don't I haven't talked to Mason about
his actual time but he decidedlike yeah I'm gonna go out with
the Africans in the first flatroad section.
Uh the fact that he held on atall was crazy.
And you know he went for it.
And I like that was impressivelike Taylor's race too.
I don't want to diminish any ofthem but the fact that Mason is

(01:00:54):
out there hanging out withpeople like I I don't know Tom
whether you heard like I'm surethat was a sub four start to
that race.
It was it was just crazy.
And then to you know they gofrom that to the mountain and he
held right with them.
Last thousand meters like thelook on his face he had drained
every ounce out of himself.
It was it was impressive howmuch how much he pushed himself

(01:01:16):
and I love seeing athletesprogress like that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:19):
I think the world's atmosphere brings that out
because it's team competition.
You don't want to let your teamdown there's so like there's
other people that are that arerelying on you and I think that
that's that makes this so muchdifferent at least from inside
the team's portion maybe notexternally you they don't feel

(01:01:41):
it but from inside I think thatthose they felt it all weekend
long that you know you didn'twant to let your teammate down.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:47):
I do want to bring up something uh kind of a
through line on team that reallystuck out to me when I was doing
the preview episodes um like CamSmith and like me you maybe you
guys can add some more color tothis because I feel like Cam
obviously coming from like theworld schemo background or USA
schemo and you know trying to bean Olympian this year like Cam
has a ton of experience and Ifelt like he really brought that

(01:02:08):
to the to the team you knowgetting a team camp together and
I know he kind of coordinatedwith you guys uh in the
beginning for putting thattogether.
Like can you can you talk alittle bit about maybe Cam just
like stepping up in like almostlike a leadership position uh
for the Mountain Classic andkind of vertical teams well I
think like to me it's funnybecause Cam is so easygoing and

(01:02:28):
chill.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:29):
I'm not sure if you were talking to him you
immediately say yeah he's theguy who's going to put the
hammer down in the last you know100 meters of a straight up race
but he does.
Like so to me it's it's and youknow you have always have
different personalities.
But yeah I loved like when Ilearned from him that he was
doing that team cap thing andeverything we were talking about

(01:02:49):
it it was like what a greatbonding opportunity because that
is something all the Europeanteams they have funded team
caps.
Instead Cam found a creative wayto have a team cap to bond you
know without that funding.
And so just like mate majorprops there that you know he
thought that was important.
Because I think it's importanttoo and like we have our teams

(01:03:11):
spread so much geographicallythey don't necessarily get to do
that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:14):
Yeah.
Yeah I think it's an importantthing for future teams.
Like I hope other teams andother like I hope members that
make the team in 2027 if there'sany rollover as I'm sure there
will be I hope people kind oftook notes on that uh to kind of
carry that tradition throughbecause I think the cohesiveness
helps a ton for just teamworkand like kind of like Tom said

(01:03:36):
like when you're it's just adifferent thing when you're
competing for a team.
So cool.
Yeah guys I think that's all Igot.
If you guys got anything else noI think we're good.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:53):
Thanks for having us on James and thanks honestly for
everything you did to promotethe athletes beforehand.
Like it was like every week.
Oh another athlete from the teamis on oh another athlete so
that's just awesome that you'relike so knee deep in this I love
it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:07):
I appreciate it.
Uh thank you so much for thekind words and yeah hopefully
we're just building till 2027.
We'll gonna start figuring outwhat's next for that.
So appreciate it guys.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:17):
All right thanks so much.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:18):
Yeah thanks so much to Tom and Paul for coming on
the pod.
Really appreciate their time andeverything that they do for our
great sport.
Guys one thing I do want to makea note of and I think it's
really important to uh for allof you especially um you know
for audience and athletes uh andthose alike to understand is
that these are all volunteerpositions none of these are paid

(01:04:39):
positions so everything that Tomand Paul do going out there uh
for worlds and con franc they'redoing it uh not just out of the
kindness of their hearts butthey're leaving their uh jobs
and families to go do stuff likethis overseas um and it is all
volunteer so guys definitelywant to uh give them a hats off
a round of applause and amassive thank you for everything

(01:05:01):
they do um and I I want to makesure that that's uh kind of
driven home um as it's extremelyimportant that we have people
like this in our sport thatcontinue to donate their time
resources and et cetera becausethey want to move the sport
forward.
So definitely hats off to bothgentlemen amongst the rest of
their team for uh doing whatthey do.
So thank you to both guys thebest way you could support them

(01:05:23):
Tom and Paul are co-racedirectors of a bunch of badass
northeast races at 603 endurancecheck out the Sun of P Scramble
this past year the Sun ofScramble was the USATF um uh
mountain running championshipfor the United States which was
pretty dope um so next yearwe'll have a mountain running
championship maybe it's SonopeeScramble maybe it won't be not

(01:05:45):
sure but definitely check outSun of it's badass race super
fun uh and also Loon check outLoon Mountain Race as well it's
another one of the crown jewelsum of the area as well as the
Kismet uh cliff run which isanother dope one that takes
place uh usually in the earlyparts of the fall uh year um all
three iconic races definitelywant to support both of these

(01:06:05):
guys um by checking out some ofthe races in the New England
area so uh last but not leastguys the best way you could
support the podcast twodifferent ways one is if you
enjoyed this episode amongstothers give us a five star
rating and review on AppleSpotify YouTube or wherever you
consume your podcast and thenvery last but not least another
way you could support us is bysupporting our brand partner
Ultimate Direction use codeSteep Stuff Pod.

(01:06:28):
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(01:06:49):
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