October 31, 2025 • 45 mins
What if admitting “I don’t know” is the most powerful leadership move you can make? We sit down with innovation consultant and author Alan Gregerman to unpack the “wisdom of ignorance” and why certainty can quietly sink companies while curiosity keeps them alive. From Kmart and Blockbuster to the next disruptor waiting in a garage, we trace how organizations lose relevance—and how to build the habits that keep you learning faster than the market shifts.
Alan shares practical scripts leaders can use to normalize not knowing, create psychological safety, and invite teams into co-creation. We get specific about middle managers caught between proving competence and sparking change, and we outline a monthly challenge cadence that turns everyone into a problem solver. You’ll hear why 99% of new ideas are borrowed, how to send people outside the building to find them, and what it takes to translate those insights into action customers care about.
If you’re ready to stop being six people’s Google and start inspiring a team of builders, this conversation gives you the language, rituals, and mindset to begin. Subscribe, share with a leader who needs it, and leave a review telling us the first experiment you’ll launch in 30 days.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:00):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where together we are shapingworkforce behaviors.
I'm excited to bring in guestAlan Gregerman today for a
conversation on innovation,engagement, and the workforce.
So Alan just recently, onOctober 14th, dropped his most
recent book, The Wisdom ofIgnorance.
(00:23):
And I just fell in love withthe title immediately.
So welcome to the show, Alan.
Alan Gregerman (00:29):
Well, greetings.
Thanks for having me on.
Delighted to be here.
Jay Johnson (00:33):
I'm excited to dig into the title of your how did
you come up with this title?
Because when I think the wisdomof ignorance, you know, the
oxymoronic uh approach to that.
And we all think I don't wantto be ignorant, but what do you
mean by that?
And how did you come to that?
Alan Gregerman (00:48):
Okay, good.
Yeah.
So this is my fourth book, andI'd like to think all of my
books have a bit of acounterintuitive nature to them.
Um, I came up with it becauseI'm an innovation consultant.
I've been working withcompanies and organizations
around the world for longer thanI care to admit on your show.
Um, but I've worked with like400 companies and organizations
(01:10):
around the world.
And one of the things I'vefound is that often they get
stuck not innovating becausethey know too much as opposed to
knowing too little.
Think about this (01:19):
the world's changing super fast.
And so if the world's changingsuper fast, the reality is we
need to change along with it.
Change means letting go of someof the things we know and being
open to the things we don'tknow.
So the wisdom of ignorance isreally about the notion that for
any problem that we haven'tsolved yet or any opportunity we
haven't unlocked, actuallystepping back and taking a fresh
(01:42):
look, being open to the ideathat we don't know the answer is
really the key to success.
Jay Johnson (01:47):
I love that.
It reminded me as you weresaying that, I was thinking of
Dr.
Alan Langer and the concept oflike mindfulness versus
mindlessness.
And, you know, I think she usesthe example.
If you go to your, you know,your parents' house, well,
you've been there a bunch oftimes, you know everything, so
you're not coming in.
(02:08):
You're coming in alreadyknowing what to expect.
But if you came to my house,which you've never been to
before, you'd be curious, you'dbe looking all around, you'd be
uh blissfully ignorant to theenvironment until you
experienced it.
Is is the wisdom of ignorancebeing able to kind of step back
and how do how do we do that?
(02:28):
Like what does that behaviorlook like in an organization?
Alan Gregerman (02:32):
Well, so I think it's kind of easy, actually.
But I think what gets in theway is often leaders or
organizations that believethey're smarter than all the
other folks in their industry orall their competitors.
And so they believe they'vefigured it out.
And so that's the challenge isalways believing that we've
figured it out means we nevermake the progress we need to
(02:55):
make.
So let's step back for asecond.
So ignorance, you know, theidea of the wisdom of ignorance
is not the wisdom of stupidity.
I could have called the bookthat.
If you think about the entirescope of human history, it's not
knowing stuff, but it's notknowing stuff that's been the
key to progress, right?
So no one knew how to make fireuntil somebody did.
(03:17):
They figured it out.
Um, no one knew how to harnesswater to make power until
somebody figured that out.
Uh, no one knew how to createcool glasses or optical lenses
that would improve the sight ofroughly 60% of the people in the
world need some type of visioncorrection.
Um, but it wasn't until the1600s that somebody figured that
(03:39):
out.
Jay Johnson (03:39):
And they didn't figure it out because I'm
getting dangerously close tothat, by the way.
Okay.
Alan Gregerman (03:44):
Well, when you're ready, just reach out to
me.
I'll share what I know.
I've been wearing glasses sincekindergarten.
And but so the idea throughouthuman history, we see problems
or challenges, we don't know theanswer.
We commit to learning.
It's what I call enlightenedignorance.
Not knowing, but wanting toknow the answer.
And so in the book, I providekind of a formula for how we can
(04:07):
all be remarkably enlightenedand ignorant.
But back to kind of what youwere asking, I think most
companies, it's a bad look tosay, I don't know the answer,
right?
And so leaders don't want tosay that.
HR leaders don't want to saythat.
People who are program managersdon't want to say that.
When I'm a salesperson out on acall, if somebody asks a
question, I don't want to say, Ihave absolutely no idea what
(04:29):
the answer is.
But the reality is we need tobe humble, we need to admit we
don't know the answer, and thenwe need together to find the
best answer.
That's how we're going to makeprogress.
Jay Johnson (04:38):
So it seems to me is one of the things that we can
think about is beingcomfortable with the
vulnerability that everyone islacking some kind of knowledge
or has gaps or is ignorant ofsomething and really embracing
that.
I'd love to dig into thebehaviors of this because you're
absolutely right.
You know, that uh many of theleaders that I've worked with, I
(05:00):
work with a lot of managers, sosort of the mid-level managers.
And I think there's a huge fearof being able to say, I don't
know.
I don't have the answer.
It's almost as though that likeonce we get the title or once
we get put into a position ofpower, it's it's scary to be
able to say, yeah, I'm I'muneducated on that, or I'm
(05:22):
ignorant to that.
How do we help people shiftthat behavior?
Because that's a I think it'ssuch an important one is when we
become a know-it-all versus alearn it all, uh, you know,
there's there's no space forthat growth.
So how do we get past thatfear, Alan?
Alan Gregerman (05:37):
Well, yes.
So for middle managers, it'sparticularly a challenge because
they've often relativelyrecently gotten promoted.
Now I'm a manager.
Now I need to appear as thoughI have my whatever together, you
know, and I need the folks whoare on my team to feel, oh,
there's a reason I'm themanager.
They picked the right person.
(05:58):
This person can lead us.
Now it turns out the bestleading behavior is to say, we
can be way better than we'veever been before.
Let's figure it out together.
I don't know how we can beawesome.
I know what we do today, andI'm determined to make sure we
keep doing a good job today.
But I know in the future wehave to be awesome, and so let's
figure that out together.
(06:18):
So, how do we kind of changethat mindset?
Well, obviously to me, itstarts kind of at the top of an
organization.
So we need whoever is the headof an organization to come clean
and say, I know a lot, but Idon't know what the future is
going to look like.
And I know we're gonna need tolearn some new things, and let's
go on a journey together to dothat.
(06:40):
So that's the whole idea ofcoming clean, of saying, it's
okay.
We can all take a breath.
We just have to be better inthe future.
Let's figure it out together.
I think what people are lookingfor is leaders that simply say,
This is where we're going.
I'm excited to get there, and Ican play a part in making that
happen.
(07:00):
So think about yourself as amanager.
Wouldn't you want all thepeople on your team to be
energized or what we often callempowered to really be helping
you to be remarkable at what youdo, help your part of the
organization.
So I think what we need to dois we need to not say, I'm like
a moron, I don't know this, I'vepetered out, I'm an imposter.
(07:22):
We're all impostors in a worldchanging super fast.
What we need, in fact, is tojust have as an idea and good
currency, it's okay not to knowbecause the future is going to
be different and we're gonnahave to be different.
So it's kind of presumptuous toassume we know all the answers
now.
Jay Johnson (07:39):
Yeah.
Well, and uh in reality, evenif you know the answers today,
even if somehow you had amagical book that when you got
promoted, all of the answers toall of the questions was put
into your head by tomorrow, inthe world that we're living
with, with change in such arapid cycle, it's gonna be
different.
The book that you got yesterdayis not going to be necessarily
(08:01):
the same book that you needtoday.
So I I love this concept ofsort of embracing the
collaborative aspect of theteam.
Uh, I think a lot of people,you know, let's let's play this
scenario out.
Because I know that we've got anumber of managers, a number of
coaches and trainers, and evenHR listening in on this.
Let's play this out.
(08:21):
I see a manager, and thatmanager refuses, refuses to
necessarily say, I don't know.
Okay.
For whatever reason.
It could be that fear, it couldbe the vulnerability, it could
feel like they have a target ontheir back.
What are some of the things?
And and I know you would agreewith this, but oftentimes it's
the lack of psychological safetythat keeps us from engaging or
(08:44):
being vulnerable or opening up.
What are some of the thingsthat we might think about to do
to increase the psychologicalsafety in a space to be able to
create that condition forinnovation?
Alan Gregerman (08:56):
Okay.
So think about my role as amiddle manager, let's say.
Um, I have two kinds ofaudiences, I believe.
I have to manage up, you know,so I have to get the leaders to
think I know what I'm doing,that it was wise for them to
make me a manager.
And then I have to manage myteam.
I don't want to say managedown.
I'll say I have to manage tothe side.
(09:17):
I have to get a team ofhopefully kind of equals to do
awesome work.
Well, to manage up, I need tosay to the folks who I report
to, you know, I'm determined tomake sure we're efficient and
effective and doing the stuff wecommitted to today.
But you need me to be open tothe possibility that tomorrow we
need to be different or better.
(09:37):
I'd like your support tocontinue to be awesome at what
we do today, but to experimentwith kind of new ideas that are
going to start moving us to thefuture.
I'd like to connect with ourcustomers better, whether
they're internal or external.
I'd like to ask them whatmatters to them.
And then I'd like to figure outwhere we need to get to.
(09:58):
And then I want to get my teamto be energized to try.
Now, from the lower end or thevertical end or whatever, my
team, I need to go to all thosepeople and say, you guys are
awesome today.
We're doing exactly what thecustomer wants today.
We're developing products,services, solutions, business
models, customer experiencesthey really respect.
(10:21):
But I know we need to bebetter.
And I'm counting on all of youbecause I believe you're super
smart.
I believe all of you have thepotential to be geniuses.
And together, collectively asgeniuses, we can really be
amazing.
We can be absolutely the bestat what we do.
So it's asking the folks aboveus to give us some permission to
(10:44):
try and be better.
And then it's asking the folkson our team to participate
because we believe in them.
Not because I'm simply sayingjust do this, but I'm saying to
them, you have ideas.
Your ideas matter.
We're going to take all theideas we have and figure out the
right path to it.
Now, I think those two thingskind of change the equation.
(11:04):
Now, of course, they get stuckif when I try to manage up, the
big bosses say, now just do yourjob.
Come on.
We've got orders to fill inthings to do.
I always like to say, you know,today I come into work, I know
what I need to do.
Um, next Monday might not bethat different.
The following Monday might notbe that different, but some
(11:25):
Monday in the future, what I doisn't going to be good enough.
And so we as a team need tofigure out how to be better.
You know, so many people say tome, they approach me and they
say, Well, I hear you're reallygood, but we really are good at
what we do.
Um, our customers adore us.
And I always say, yourcustomers adore you because they
(11:47):
haven't found anything betteryet.
Or they adore you today.
Yes, once exactly.
Once they find somethingbetter, they will drop you like
a hot potato or whatever.
Jay Johnson (12:00):
Look at every single organization, Alan,
right?
Like when you think aboutsomebody, everybody loved Kmart.
They loved the blue lightspecials, they loved all of
those aspects, and then all of asudden, they didn't modernize,
they didn't adapt, and theydidn't, they didn't position
themselves for the customer oftomorrow.
They were really stuck in thecustomer of yesterday.
Alan Gregerman (12:19):
So Yeah, so that's a great example.
And think about this foreverybody listening.
260 of the Fortune 500 20 yearsago don't exist today.
So that's more than half of thegreat businesses in America
that no longer remainedrelevant, like Kmart.
They lost their mojo orwhatever they lost.
(12:42):
They lost their connection withcustomers, and they simply
disappeared.
That's kind of shocking, isn'tit?
Well, and it's going to happenfaster every five years.
So we need to positionourselves to not let that
happen.
Jay Johnson (12:56):
Well, and yeah, I even think about somebody like
Blockbuster, right?
They saw the writing on thewall, had the resources that
they could have utilized thewisdom of ignorance and said,
hey, somebody's onto somethingover here.
Let's jump in and learn alittle bit more about this and
how the customers are reactingto it.
And we might still have a fewstores here and there, but
(13:19):
there's one.
Alan Gregerman (13:19):
It's in Bend, Oregon, right.
But there were 9,094Blockbuster stores, mostly in
the U.S., some in Canada.
I think a few in Mexico.
They've disappeared, right?
And you're exactly right.
So the folks at Blockbuster sawthat the writing was on the
wall, that people were startingto first get DVDs like Netflix
(13:42):
did, and then eventually theywere moving towards something
called streaming that wasappearing.
Um, actually, the folks atNetflix who were struggling
early on offered to sellthemselves to Blockbuster for
$50 million, and Blockbustersaid, no, we're good.
We got retail stores.
Heartbreaking.
Well, yeah.
(14:02):
How many people listening wentinto a Sears this past weekend?
Jay Johnson (14:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and I think that's so uhit's so spot on to what you had
said, though, is Blockbusterthought that they knew
everything.
They didn't create the spacefor it.
They thought that they had it.
They had the secret sauce,we've been doing this, we've got
10,000 stores.
What do you know?
(14:26):
And I there's it's there issuch a danger in that, not only
at that corporate level, butjust as an individual doing our
job.
Right.
I I think one of the phrasesthat I hear boards of directors,
especially like when you have anew person that joins a board
of directors, and you know, theycome in with innovation, and
(14:48):
and this this comes to aquestion, Alan, because I think
this is so important.
I come in, I'm on a new boardof directors, I've got all these
ideas, right?
I was either elected,appointed, whatever it is.
I come in and I hit a wall ofthat's not how we do things, or
uh, we've always done it thisway, and that way works.
(15:08):
What happens when you're theperson that is leaning into the
innovation, is is is you know uhliving the wisdom of ignorance.
But you receive just thatpushback or resistance from the
wall of no.
Alan Gregerman (15:26):
Right.
So you have a I think a coupleof options.
Well, you have always havethree options, I think.
But the options that I think ofare you say to yourself, can I
create a campaign to influenceenough of these people to
realize that we need to change?
And I say that as a boardmember, but I would also say
that as a new employee.
(15:46):
I come in with ideas, I've beensomewhere else, I have some
fresh perspectives.
I look around and I see thatwe're awesome.
I'm lucky to be here, but thereare things we could do better.
I suggest those things.
And so I either create acampaign in which I get enough
other people to think those aregood ideas, or I say, nah, I
thought I could make somethinghappen here.
(16:08):
I thought I would be valuable,I thought they would listen to
some of the ideas I have.
Um I can't make it happen.
I'm gonna look somewhere else,or I just sit back and say it's
a nine to five job.
We obviously don't want thelast two things to happen,
right?
As managers, we don't want tolose the best members of our
team.
As HR leaders, we don't want tohave a talent drain of people
(16:30):
who could actually make usbetter who decide, nah, it's
impossible.
I just can't push the rock upthe hill.
Um, so we need to get people tofigure out how to make things
happen.
And we need to be more open toideas.
And as a board, a board needsto be open to ideas.
But think about how most boardsare picked.
Some of them are the friends ofthe leaders of a company.
(16:53):
Others are picked because theyhave a certain technical
function that, of course, isn'tgoing to be a function that's
going to suggest ways we need tochange.
And then other folks, I don'tknow how they got on boards.
I know I, as a somewhat deviantthinker, am not regularly
invited onto boards.
Jay Johnson (17:11):
I would say that some of them got onto the boards
back when Jesus appointed them,and they've been there ever
since.
We're just waiting for them togive up their seat.
Good point.
Okay.
Alan Gregerman (17:22):
Yeah.
That's fair.
Jay Johnson (17:23):
Well, I I I want to bring this into and I'm going
to keep the thread here, but Ithink that this is really
important.
I I've been doing a lot ofdifferent conversations and
talks on generations in theworkplace.
And I think that this is kindof an interesting take on the
questions of innovation.
You've got, and this was true,let's say 15 years ago when
(17:45):
everybody was worried aboutmillennials coming into the
workforce and taking over.
Now we're into the Gen Z.
By 2030, I think the mostrecent stat, 32% of the
workforce is going to be Gen Z.
And Gen Z's Gen Z cut a littlebit of a different cloth.
They come in with ideas andthey want to share those ideas.
(18:06):
And I think this is going toget into some of the engagement
conversation as well, right?
They're coming in with ideas.
They've got a very differentlens in which they've uh look at
the, you know, look at theworld of work.
And we know from generationalresearch, generally, it's the
things that you've livedthrough.
This is this is a generationthat has lived through economic
(18:28):
uncertainty and terrorism.
And they've never had uhthey've never not had access to
a high-powered supercomputer anda video camera in their pockets
at all times.
So that's definitely shapedsome different behaviors.
So my question is is they comein, they've got these ideas, and
what ends up happening, andthis is not all, this is not all
(18:51):
generations, but let's just sayGen X.
All right.
So I'm close enough betweenMillennial and Gen X that I can
pick on either of them.
So I'm picking on Gen X.
Gen X says, keep your headdown, do your work, don't, don't
get out of line, don't jump inthere, you know, stay out of
trouble.
And they think, on some level,I'm protecting this person.
They just don't know, theydon't understand, they don't
(19:13):
have the experience.
So I'm saying they're doing itfrom this place of like, I'm
gonna call it, they're doing itwith the right intention, but
maybe having a negative impacton innovation, engagement, etc.
How do you navigate some ofthose different experiential
gaps, right?
Like you and I might have anexperiential gap, but it seems
(19:34):
to me both of us are thecollaborative type of creatures
that would be like, wow, that'sfascinating.
Okay, let's hear what you got.
Where's that coming from?
How do you create or instillthat sort of idea towards
collaboration when you do havesome level of experience or
disparities in knowledge or uhexpertise?
Alan Gregerman (19:53):
Okay, that's fair.
But let me let me go back forone second, because one of the
things you said is particularlyimportant, I think, for me and
hopefully for your audience.
And that is the idea, ascompanies and organizations,
wouldn't we want new people tocome in and make us better?
So I just want to put that outthere.
Now I'll share what I think weought to do.
(20:15):
So some of the people listeningare in organizations that have
something called orientation.
And so orientation is kind ofan interesting thing.
We come in for a couple ofdays, we hang out with the other
new employees, they teach usexactly how we've always done
things, and then they give usour work and say, here's your
cube, good luck, may the forcebe with you.
(20:37):
We'll see you at the holidayparty.
So if I were to begin to changethis, I would change the moment
somebody arrived.
It is so competitive to get ajob now that I'm guessing
whoever you hired has done anawful lot of homework on your
company.
They know your values, they'reon the website, they know
roughly what you do, they knowroughly what they've bargained
(20:59):
for.
Now they show up, and here'swhat I'd do.
I'd say, we're delighted tohave you here.
I'd give them a clipboard andI'd give them blank sheets of
paper with a line down themiddle.
I'd say, what we want you to dofor the next couple days is
just wander around.
Knock on people's doors,hopefully they're open, talk to
people, attend meetings, payattention to us, walk the halls,
(21:22):
look and see what we do, walkthe factory if we have a
factory.
And what we want you to do asyou're doing that is on the
right hand side of the page,write everything down that you
see us doing and you say, gosh,I'm so lucky to be here.
These folks are awesome.
And on the left hand side ofthe page, we want you to write
down everything where you say toyourself, these folks are
(21:44):
clueless.
Do they ever get out of theoffice?
Do they have any idea what'sgoing on in the world around
them?
Then what we want you to do iswe want you to present your list
to our management team.
For the things you think werereally good, we'll pat ourselves
on the back.
For the things you think wereclueless, we'll have a
conversation about those.
And then we'd like you to pickone of those, day two, day
(22:06):
three, and help us to be better.
The only caveat is we'd likeyou to find some other people
that you've met along the waythat will help you do it.
So what we're saying is whensomebody arrives, they matter.
I don't care what generationthey are, they're here to make
us better.
They're gonna do their job, butthey're gonna take on an extra
project to figure out a way tomake us better that's obvious to
(22:28):
them, and they're gonna findfolks to collaborate with.
They're gonna build a team andconnect with other people.
That changes the equation sodramatically.
And so I've done that with alot of the companies we work
with.
And suddenly new people areenergized.
Talk about engagement.
What's the most difficult thingfor people?
Is they show up and they feelpretty quickly it's hard to
(22:49):
connect, it's hard to belong.
Now, Ed, one of the things Ithink that you were alluding to,
they've also gone new youngpeople have gone through COVID,
right?
And so they went through an erawhere they actually were
convinced it was great to workremotely.
I mean, what a no, I don'tknow.
There are a bunch of peoplelistening who probably like to
(23:09):
work remotely.
But if I'm a new employee, Iwant to be around other people.
I want to learn from otherpeople, I want to be mentored, I
want to have a face-to-facewith people.
I don't just want to be on ascreen and engage with people.
So the reality is we have ageneration in which they're
already kind of disattached ordisassociated with our company.
(23:30):
And now we just tell them,okay, sit at your kitchen table
and just crunch this workout,and you know, and we'll meet
once a week.
And that's awesome, isn't it?
So I think we miss the chanceto truly engage them, give them
a sense of belonging, and tapthe genius in them.
But again, I go back to thisidea.
I don't want another employeewho isn't going to make us
(23:50):
better.
I don't need that.
Employees that just come andcontinue to crunch out the work
and make us the same, that'sexhausting for me.
Jay Johnson (24:00):
Well, and Alan, I love that because basically what
you're doing is turning all ofthose new employees into
high-priced consultants.
Hey, come in here and take alook at what we're doing as an
outside objective person that'sgoing to be able to give us some
recommendations and guidance tofix those.
I mean, I there's an entirefield of work for that, and
(24:20):
you're getting an onboardedemployee engaged and owning
something that early, that's apretty cool experience.
Alan Gregerman (24:28):
Yeah, no, I th I had never thought about it that
way because I'd hate to thinkthey put me out of work.
Jay Johnson (24:33):
Yeah, thanks, Alan.
Appreciate it.
Alan Gregerman (24:35):
No, no, no.
But if they land and are happyand make a difference, I'm
happy.
It's great.
I think we just need people tobe bring their best to work, and
they don't bring their bestunless we say to them we
actually care about what youknow.
Jay Johnson (24:50):
Alan, I've noticed in and I'm loving this
conversation.
I I've noticed in a number oforganizations um critical
thinking.
And I'm going to call itcritical thinking, problem
solving skills are often beingcommodified and just owned by
leadership.
(25:10):
And you know, you got a bunchof people that are working,
let's say, let's say a mid-levelmanager who oversees six
people.
And this is one of the jokesthat I've made with some of the
mid-level managers that I'veworked with is congratulations,
you've become six people'sGoogle.
You're their own trustedbrowser.
(25:30):
You are their AI because youconstantly are solving their
problems.
And and I and when I say this,I don't, you know, when we're in
a leadership position, we wantto be supportive, we want to be
helpful, we want to guide, wewant to give this.
But I often think that there'ssomething lost there, that we're
not creating the conditions forco-collaboration and in solving
(25:54):
a problem, or that you know, webecome over-reliant on going to
that quote expert authority toget our problem solved.
How can we really inspire?
And I think inspire is theright word here, and you can
correct me if if you hear adifferent word.
How can we inspire people tomaybe take the time to try?
(26:15):
Because I I see a lot of I seea lot of just help me get this
done, rather than the struggleit takes to actually learn how
to do it.
unknown (26:25):
Right.
Alan Gregerman (26:26):
No, so I think that's fair.
Um if I ruled the world formany of the folks who are
listening, as a leader, what Iwould do is each month, I would
try to identify a critical issuethat we need to be better at as
an organization in order tomove forward.
And I would put that out thereto everyone.
(26:47):
And I don't care if they're 20people or 50 people or 500 or
10,000 people in anorganization.
I would say this is somethingwe need to be better at.
We need to improve technicalsupport, we need to improve our
distribution chain.
We need to use technology innew ways.
We need to unlock the value ofAI in a way that it supports us
(27:08):
as humans.
Um and so I'd put thatchallenge out and I'd say this
month we're all gonna thinkabout it.
I'd like you to organize asteams who are passionate about
an idea, do some thinking aboutit, and then come back to us
with your ideas.
And then we're gonna sortthrough all these ideas and
figure out do we have somewisdom yet about the direction
(27:28):
to take?
So I think we need to engagepeople, we need to challenge
them to be at their best, and weneed to challenge them to also
understand you know, my book,The Wisdom of Ignorance, is
about innovation.
And so let me share with yourlisteners kind of the untold
truth about innovation.
You know, most of the time incompanies we need to be
(27:50):
innovative, and so whoever's theboss says, uh, bring some
bright people together in aroom, we might have whiteboards,
sticky notes, all kinds ofthings, and says, you know, we
need to be better at this.
Does anybody have anout-of-the-box idea?
It's as though we've all cometo work with just inside-the-box
ideas, as though we're allstupid.
But now that they've asked usto turn on that part of our
brain with an out-of-the-boxidea, I'm all over that.
(28:13):
But it turns out that 99% ofall new ideas throughout the
course of history have beenbased on somebody else's
thinking or something someonefound in nature.
And so if that's the case, thenit changes the equation for all
these people I want toenergize.
I don't need to say to thesepeople, just sit in a room and
(28:34):
kind of look at that blank sheetof paper until your head
bursts, or you need a Kit Katbar or whatever the case is.
What I want you to do is eitheruse your phone, I don't know
where my phone is, or I want youto actually get out of the
office and wander around andlook for the 99% of ideas that
are going to make us better.
What I need all of you to doare be the folks that find
(28:56):
ideas, bring them back, and thenconnect those dots between an
idea you found and us beingbetter, and then we work out the
details.
That's actually how innovationoccurs.
And so what I find is folkssay, well, that's great.
We have like Skunkworks and ateam, and these people hide in a
room and they're coming up withbrilliant ideas.
And I go, like, why?
You know, there's so manybrilliant ideas out there that
(29:19):
we just need to adapt to ourworld to be awesome.
And so I really want folks tothink about the idea that we
can, I love your word inspire.
Um, we have to, as leaders,inspire people to take
initiative.
We need to be clear about ourpurpose and what really matters.
We need to help them focus sothey don't waste their time on
(29:41):
things that won't move the dial.
But we need to move people tobe inspired to try and find
brilliance out there, bring itback, and then say if we tweak
this idea, we could be amazing.
Jay Johnson (29:55):
I love that, Alan.
So I I got another question,and I'm going to relate this.
This one of the programs thatwe run is called Behavioral
Elements.
And what it does is it measurescore biological drives.
And the drives were actuallyestablished by two management
scientists from HarvardUniversity, Dr.
Paul Lawrence, Dr.
Nitt and Noria.
(30:15):
We measure these drives.
One of the drives is the driveto learn.
It's associated with ourhippocampal region,
acetylcholine, and it's thatsort of like curiosity, the
natural, like hardwiredneurobiology of curiosity and
innovation and exploration.
The opposing drive is the driveto defend.
(30:36):
And that is the one that says,I do not like uncertainty.
I don't want to do something, Idon't want to walk into that
cave if there is the possibilitythat there's a lion in that
cave.
I need to be certain thatthere's no lion in that cave.
And this is much more of ourdrive that that establishes
patterns of behavior like umsystems, process, quality, etc.
(30:57):
Each of us have these drives.
Some people are lean moretowards the drive to learn than
they do the drive to defend.
Other people lean more towardsthe drive to defend.
How do we manage?
Because and I always make thisjoke.
If you ever get a phone call, Ineed you to come down to my
office.
Most human beings are not goingto be like, yes, I'm getting a
(31:20):
raise.
They're going to be like, oh myGod, what did I do?
And it's immediately going togo into the threat protection,
the negative protection.
So we have these two opposingforces.
If I am more sitting on thatside of the drive to defend, I
like to be sure, I like to becertain, that brings me joy, it
hits my dopamine circuits.
(31:40):
How do I how do I manage thateither fear of uncertainty, fear
of failure?
How do I take that first stepinto the unknown?
Alan Gregerman (31:49):
Okay.
So when you talk about thedrive to live in a world of
certainty, I believe that'sbecause we believe that that's
what they're paying us to do, toget the things done that we
expect people to get done.
So again, I hate to bring itall back to leaders, but leaders
(32:09):
are really important.
We have to, as leaders, say,we're not going to bet the ranch
here.
There's going to be a level ofcertainty here.
A significant part of what youdo is gonna be the stuff you're
comfortable doing.
I'm okay with that.
But that's not gonna get us tothe future.
We live in an uncertain world.
We all have to raise the bar.
(32:30):
And that's why I love the wholenotion of let's be great, let's
continue to be better at thestuff we do.
And so for those folks who likethe world of certainty, I say,
I just need you to figure outhow we can be better at the
certain part of our work.
You know, the stuff thatresonates with customers now.
And the folks who like theworld of learning, I need to
(32:52):
energize those folks and say, Iknow that a big part of what we
do in the future is gonna bedifferent.
You guys need to take the leadin helping us to get there.
You need to ask questions,learn new things, explore the
world, look for ideas, bringideas back to us, and experiment
with ways we can be betterbecause some of those
(33:12):
experiments are gonna lead us tobe remarkable in the future.
And so I like to balance thosetwo things.
Um, I learned one thing, and Ihave to admit, I don't have a
PhD in adult developmentalpsychology.
But one of the things I didlearn from a psychology class
was that adults don't changevery easily.
(33:34):
And so I'm not gonna show upone day, you know, and may wave
a magic wand and say, okay, youlike certainty.
I'm gonna get you to be aperson who likes learning and
uncertainty.
I know that's not the case.
But I do know as leaders, weowe it to everybody to get them
to understand that the world ischanging.
We absolutely have to do thatand that they need to be part of
(33:57):
helping us get there.
You know, you've mentionedseveral times, and I couldn't
agree more.
We're gonna get there bycollaborating.
We're not gonna get there byall being individual superstars.
We're gonna get there bybringing the diverse ideas we
have together as part of a team,asking lots of questions,
(34:19):
looking at things in differentways, and then together figuring
out what's the best pathforward.
But we need leaders to sanctionus to do that.
And if I'm in an organizationwhere a leader is kind of asleep
at the wheel, the worst thing Ican have is a leader who spends
all of their time in the worldof certainty.
What I want is my leaders to bebalanced.
(34:41):
I want them to have part oftheir time, I don't know which
hand is that, part of their timein the world of certainty, and
part of their time, I want themto say, we're gonna have to do
things differently.
And so if I have those kind ofleaders, I can find my place.
And then as a person who likescertainty, and if a leader says,
you don't have to worry, ifyou're continuing to do great
(35:05):
work, we need you.
But we want that great work tomorph into us being even better.
And I believe in you.
You know, one of the things Iknow about adult development
psychology, and let's be honest,I have a PhD in geography, but
one of the things I know aboutadult developmental psychology
is the idea that if we can getpeople to believe that we
(35:27):
believe in them, that we believethat they have the potential to
do something that changes theequation.
Then I'm not horrified whensomebody calls me.
Then I go in and I know thatthey believe in me.
It may not be the best newsright now, but we're together
going to figure out a pathforward.
Jay Johnson (35:45):
Yeah, and that concept of having the shared
future and the trusting in theshared future is so powerful.
But I love what you said.
You're absolutely spot on.
You know, high expectationsrequire a high level of support
and connection.
You know, we can hold somebodyvery accountable to really high
standards, but it's got to bematched with that care and
(36:07):
support.
So let's let's uh one quickquestion here.
All right.
So innovation, oftentimes, Imean, we see different
innovations.
We do we see people trying, trynew things, try something
different.
Sometimes it works, sometimesit doesn't work, but failure.
Failure universally from ahuman perspective, uh initially,
(36:28):
I would say most people are notcomfortable with failure.
Now, I think that there aresome people, particularly maybe
entrepreneurs, that step into itand kind of look at it maybe a
little differently.
It's not failure, it's alearning opportunity.
I didn't fail, I'm just it'sthe next iteration, and so on
and so forth.
But with that being said, Iwould say a sizable portion of
(36:48):
the population worries aboutfailure.
I don't want to try this newthing that could be better
because it could cost thecompany a ton of money.
Or I don't want to do thisbecause if I do this and it
doesn't work, my manager's gonnalose faith in me or lose that
trust in me, lose that feelingin me.
That feeling of failure, Ithink, obviously holds back.
(37:09):
And I know that the leaders andeverything else.
So I'll ask a very directquestion here.
Do you think celebratingfailures is a good practice?
Or is there another way that weshould approach when a failure
occurs in an organization?
Alan Gregerman (37:26):
Well, so it depends how we define
celebrating failures.
So I think we, you know, goingback to what we were talking
about, I think we need to learnfrom failures.
So is that celebrating, or isthat I've learned this the next
time I'm gonna do itdifferently?
What I always tell thecompanies we work with is we're
gonna create an engine offailing fast and failing small.
(37:50):
So they're gonna be failures,but we're gonna do them fast
because the world is movingreally fast.
And I'm not gonna invest a lotin an idea until I've actually
proven that there are firstcustomers out there and second
that I can deliver on the ideathat I have.
So that changes the entireequation.
What I worry about is all thesecompanies that ask all these
(38:12):
people to work on projects thatnever see the light of day, and
then they've invested, as yousuggest, they've invested a lot
of time, they've invested a lotof kind of person power, they've
invested a lot of theirpassion, and then it just
doesn't happen.
Think about who we're competingagainst.
It's three people who over aweekend come up with a
(38:36):
half-brained idea, they eat someartisan pizza, they drink their
favorite IPAs, and then onMonday they share it with some
customers.
That's what an entrepreneurdoes, okay?
And then the customer says,either this is a great idea or
this is a pretty lame idea.
And if the customer says it's agreat idea, then we simply say,
(38:57):
Great, help us make it better.
We came up with the 75% idea.
Um, we knew it wasn't going tobe perfect, but we knew that
you'd have a lot of insight.
Then the customer tells us howto make it better, or a set of
potential customers.
We go and make it better thenext weekend.
Maybe we have another artisanpizza, or maybe we bring in Thai
food.
(39:18):
I don't know the answer.
And then we have a differentkind of premium beverage, and
then we send it back out tothem.
That's how entrepreneurs work.
If we can't in organizationscome close to that, we can't
win.
So that's why I say we need tobe experimenting all the time,
but we're not experimenting witha lot of money or a lot of
(39:40):
time.
We're making tests, we'resharing them with customers,
we're connected with the outsideworld, and we're really trying
to learn.
So then are we celebrating?
I don't have time to celebratea failure.
I barely have time to celebratea victory.
What I have is enough time todo a quick post-mortem on what
(40:01):
did we learn from that that wecan apply to the next thing we
try, and then let's be smarter.
Um, there's no I have noproblem with people kind of not
knowing or being ignorant.
I have a problem with themtrying something and not being
smarter when they try somethingnew.
And I believe all of us havethe ability to learn.
(40:23):
You know, it gets to.
So go back to what you weretalking about is I believe we
can want certainty, but alsowant to learn.
And so we all got to belearners.
You know, in a world changingfast, we all got to be learners.
Whatever we learn in school, Idon't want to say it's
irrelevant, but we got to recastit to be relevant, I think.
Jay Johnson (40:45):
We learned how to learn, and I think that that's
really the biggest thing that wetake away.
So, Alan, this is such afascinating conversation, and I
am certain that some of ouraudience would love to connect
with you and dig deeper.
Well, how would they reach outto you?
Alan Gregerman (41:01):
Okay, well, I appreciate that.
And I've loved theconversation.
So thanks for inviting me.
Um, they can find out about meby going to my website, which is
simply alangregorman.com,A-L-A-N-G-R-E, G-E-R-M-A-N.com.
They can connect with me onLinkedIn.
Um, I would prefer if theyconnected with me and not follow
(41:23):
me.
You know, if they're interestedin my ideas, I'm interested in
kind of what they're working on.
So connect with me on LinkedIn.
They can, I would love it ifthey bought my book.
Jay Johnson (41:33):
That's such a beautiful cover, too.
Alan Gregerman (41:36):
Well, thank you.
No, I love I really like thisbook, but I'll make this offer
to your viewers, and that is ifthey buy my book and don't find
it valuable, I will Venmo themwhatever they spent.
I'll buy it back from them.
Wow.
I don't want them to beunsatisfied.
You know, and I learned thatfrom our dear friends at LL
(41:56):
Bean, who in 1912 offered anunconditional guarantee of
satisfaction.
I want people to be happy withmy book.
But um, yeah, so those areprobably the easiest ways to
connect with me.
I would love to have peopleconnect with me.
I post on LinkedIn prettyregularly.
Feel free to follow kind of thethings as long as you connect
with me.
Yeah.
Jay Johnson (42:17):
I love that, Alan.
And I will be connecting withyou and hoping to continue
conversations because I think wescratched the surface.
And this has been such afascinating conversation.
I just want to say thank youfor joining me today, for
sharing your wisdom, yourexperience, and insight, and
even sharing some of yourignorances, I guess.
Alan Gregerman (42:39):
Oh, well, thank you for that.
No, actually, one of ourcustomers recently, you could
appreciate it, said, you know,when it comes to not knowing
stuff, Alan Gregerman is agenius.
Jay Johnson (42:50):
I love that, I think.
No, that's beautiful.
The book is The Wisdom ofIgnorance, and I encourage you,
audience, to check it out.
If we are not innovating,changing, learning, adapting, we
are probably going the way ofthe Dodo Bird as well as Kmart
and all of the others.
So it's definitely somethingthat I find to be incredibly
(43:13):
important.
And today was just so many goodthoughts, tactics, mindset
shifts.
I can't thank you enough, Alan.
Thank you again.
Alan Gregerman (43:21):
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me on.
Loved it.
Jay Johnson (43:23):
And thank you, audience, for tuning into this
episode of the Talent Forge,where together we are shaping
workforce behaviors.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where together we are shapingworkforce behaviors.
I'm excited to bring in guestAlan Gregerman today for a
conversation on innovation,engagement, and the workforce.
So Alan just recently, onOctober 14th, dropped his most
recent book, The Wisdom ofIgnorance.
(00:23):
And I just fell in love withthe title immediately.
So welcome to the show, Alan.
Alan Gregerman (00:29):
Well, greetings.
Thanks for having me on.
Delighted to be here.
Jay Johnson (00:33):
I'm excited to dig into the title of your how did
you come up with this title?
Because when I think the wisdomof ignorance, you know, the
oxymoronic uh approach to that.
And we all think I don't wantto be ignorant, but what do you
mean by that?
And how did you come to that?
Alan Gregerman (00:48):
Okay, good.
Yeah.
So this is my fourth book, andI'd like to think all of my
books have a bit of acounterintuitive nature to them.
Um, I came up with it becauseI'm an innovation consultant.
I've been working withcompanies and organizations
around the world for longer thanI care to admit on your show.
Um, but I've worked with like400 companies and organizations
(01:10):
around the world.
And one of the things I'vefound is that often they get
stuck not innovating becausethey know too much as opposed to
knowing too little.
Think about this (01:19):
the world's changing super fast.
And so if the world's changingsuper fast, the reality is we
need to change along with it.
Change means letting go of someof the things we know and being
open to the things we don'tknow.
So the wisdom of ignorance isreally about the notion that for
any problem that we haven'tsolved yet or any opportunity we
haven't unlocked, actuallystepping back and taking a fresh
(01:42):
look, being open to the ideathat we don't know the answer is
really the key to success.
Jay Johnson (01:47):
I love that.
It reminded me as you weresaying that, I was thinking of
Dr.
Alan Langer and the concept oflike mindfulness versus
mindlessness.
And, you know, I think she usesthe example.
If you go to your, you know,your parents' house, well,
you've been there a bunch oftimes, you know everything, so
you're not coming in.
(02:08):
You're coming in alreadyknowing what to expect.
But if you came to my house,which you've never been to
before, you'd be curious, you'dbe looking all around, you'd be
uh blissfully ignorant to theenvironment until you
experienced it.
Is is the wisdom of ignorancebeing able to kind of step back
and how do how do we do that?
(02:28):
Like what does that behaviorlook like in an organization?
Alan Gregerman (02:32):
Well, so I think it's kind of easy, actually.
But I think what gets in theway is often leaders or
organizations that believethey're smarter than all the
other folks in their industry orall their competitors.
And so they believe they'vefigured it out.
And so that's the challenge isalways believing that we've
figured it out means we nevermake the progress we need to
(02:55):
make.
So let's step back for asecond.
So ignorance, you know, theidea of the wisdom of ignorance
is not the wisdom of stupidity.
I could have called the bookthat.
If you think about the entirescope of human history, it's not
knowing stuff, but it's notknowing stuff that's been the
key to progress, right?
So no one knew how to make fireuntil somebody did.
(03:17):
They figured it out.
Um, no one knew how to harnesswater to make power until
somebody figured that out.
Uh, no one knew how to createcool glasses or optical lenses
that would improve the sight ofroughly 60% of the people in the
world need some type of visioncorrection.
Um, but it wasn't until the1600s that somebody figured that
(03:39):
out.
Jay Johnson (03:39):
And they didn't figure it out because I'm
getting dangerously close tothat, by the way.
Okay.
Alan Gregerman (03:44):
Well, when you're ready, just reach out to
me.
I'll share what I know.
I've been wearing glasses sincekindergarten.
And but so the idea throughouthuman history, we see problems
or challenges, we don't know theanswer.
We commit to learning.
It's what I call enlightenedignorance.
Not knowing, but wanting toknow the answer.
And so in the book, I providekind of a formula for how we can
(04:07):
all be remarkably enlightenedand ignorant.
But back to kind of what youwere asking, I think most
companies, it's a bad look tosay, I don't know the answer,
right?
And so leaders don't want tosay that.
HR leaders don't want to saythat.
People who are program managersdon't want to say that.
When I'm a salesperson out on acall, if somebody asks a
question, I don't want to say, Ihave absolutely no idea what
(04:29):
the answer is.
But the reality is we need tobe humble, we need to admit we
don't know the answer, and thenwe need together to find the
best answer.
That's how we're going to makeprogress.
Jay Johnson (04:38):
So it seems to me is one of the things that we can
think about is beingcomfortable with the
vulnerability that everyone islacking some kind of knowledge
or has gaps or is ignorant ofsomething and really embracing
that.
I'd love to dig into thebehaviors of this because you're
absolutely right.
You know, that uh many of theleaders that I've worked with, I
(05:00):
work with a lot of managers, sosort of the mid-level managers.
And I think there's a huge fearof being able to say, I don't
know.
I don't have the answer.
It's almost as though that likeonce we get the title or once
we get put into a position ofpower, it's it's scary to be
able to say, yeah, I'm I'muneducated on that, or I'm
(05:22):
ignorant to that.
How do we help people shiftthat behavior?
Because that's a I think it'ssuch an important one is when we
become a know-it-all versus alearn it all, uh, you know,
there's there's no space forthat growth.
So how do we get past thatfear, Alan?
Alan Gregerman (05:37):
Well, yes.
So for middle managers, it'sparticularly a challenge because
they've often relativelyrecently gotten promoted.
Now I'm a manager.
Now I need to appear as thoughI have my whatever together, you
know, and I need the folks whoare on my team to feel, oh,
there's a reason I'm themanager.
They picked the right person.
(05:58):
This person can lead us.
Now it turns out the bestleading behavior is to say, we
can be way better than we'veever been before.
Let's figure it out together.
I don't know how we can beawesome.
I know what we do today, andI'm determined to make sure we
keep doing a good job today.
But I know in the future wehave to be awesome, and so let's
figure that out together.
(06:18):
So, how do we kind of changethat mindset?
Well, obviously to me, itstarts kind of at the top of an
organization.
So we need whoever is the headof an organization to come clean
and say, I know a lot, but Idon't know what the future is
going to look like.
And I know we're gonna need tolearn some new things, and let's
go on a journey together to dothat.
(06:40):
So that's the whole idea ofcoming clean, of saying, it's
okay.
We can all take a breath.
We just have to be better inthe future.
Let's figure it out together.
I think what people are lookingfor is leaders that simply say,
This is where we're going.
I'm excited to get there, and Ican play a part in making that
happen.
(07:00):
So think about yourself as amanager.
Wouldn't you want all thepeople on your team to be
energized or what we often callempowered to really be helping
you to be remarkable at what youdo, help your part of the
organization.
So I think what we need to dois we need to not say, I'm like
a moron, I don't know this, I'vepetered out, I'm an imposter.
(07:22):
We're all impostors in a worldchanging super fast.
What we need, in fact, is tojust have as an idea and good
currency, it's okay not to knowbecause the future is going to
be different and we're gonnahave to be different.
So it's kind of presumptuous toassume we know all the answers
now.
Jay Johnson (07:39):
Yeah.
Well, and uh in reality, evenif you know the answers today,
even if somehow you had amagical book that when you got
promoted, all of the answers toall of the questions was put
into your head by tomorrow, inthe world that we're living
with, with change in such arapid cycle, it's gonna be
different.
The book that you got yesterdayis not going to be necessarily
(08:01):
the same book that you needtoday.
So I I love this concept ofsort of embracing the
collaborative aspect of theteam.
Uh, I think a lot of people,you know, let's let's play this
scenario out.
Because I know that we've got anumber of managers, a number of
coaches and trainers, and evenHR listening in on this.
Let's play this out.
(08:21):
I see a manager, and thatmanager refuses, refuses to
necessarily say, I don't know.
Okay.
For whatever reason.
It could be that fear, it couldbe the vulnerability, it could
feel like they have a target ontheir back.
What are some of the things?
And and I know you would agreewith this, but oftentimes it's
the lack of psychological safetythat keeps us from engaging or
(08:44):
being vulnerable or opening up.
What are some of the thingsthat we might think about to do
to increase the psychologicalsafety in a space to be able to
create that condition forinnovation?
Alan Gregerman (08:56):
Okay.
So think about my role as amiddle manager, let's say.
Um, I have two kinds ofaudiences, I believe.
I have to manage up, you know,so I have to get the leaders to
think I know what I'm doing,that it was wise for them to
make me a manager.
And then I have to manage myteam.
I don't want to say managedown.
I'll say I have to manage tothe side.
(09:17):
I have to get a team ofhopefully kind of equals to do
awesome work.
Well, to manage up, I need tosay to the folks who I report
to, you know, I'm determined tomake sure we're efficient and
effective and doing the stuff wecommitted to today.
But you need me to be open tothe possibility that tomorrow we
need to be different or better.
(09:37):
I'd like your support tocontinue to be awesome at what
we do today, but to experimentwith kind of new ideas that are
going to start moving us to thefuture.
I'd like to connect with ourcustomers better, whether
they're internal or external.
I'd like to ask them whatmatters to them.
And then I'd like to figure outwhere we need to get to.
(09:58):
And then I want to get my teamto be energized to try.
Now, from the lower end or thevertical end or whatever, my
team, I need to go to all thosepeople and say, you guys are
awesome today.
We're doing exactly what thecustomer wants today.
We're developing products,services, solutions, business
models, customer experiencesthey really respect.
(10:21):
But I know we need to bebetter.
And I'm counting on all of youbecause I believe you're super
smart.
I believe all of you have thepotential to be geniuses.
And together, collectively asgeniuses, we can really be
amazing.
We can be absolutely the bestat what we do.
So it's asking the folks aboveus to give us some permission to
(10:44):
try and be better.
And then it's asking the folkson our team to participate
because we believe in them.
Not because I'm simply sayingjust do this, but I'm saying to
them, you have ideas.
Your ideas matter.
We're going to take all theideas we have and figure out the
right path to it.
Now, I think those two thingskind of change the equation.
(11:04):
Now, of course, they get stuckif when I try to manage up, the
big bosses say, now just do yourjob.
Come on.
We've got orders to fill inthings to do.
I always like to say, you know,today I come into work, I know
what I need to do.
Um, next Monday might not bethat different.
The following Monday might notbe that different, but some
(11:25):
Monday in the future, what I doisn't going to be good enough.
And so we as a team need tofigure out how to be better.
You know, so many people say tome, they approach me and they
say, Well, I hear you're reallygood, but we really are good at
what we do.
Um, our customers adore us.
And I always say, yourcustomers adore you because they
(11:47):
haven't found anything betteryet.
Or they adore you today.
Yes, once exactly.
Once they find somethingbetter, they will drop you like
a hot potato or whatever.
Jay Johnson (12:00):
Look at every single organization, Alan,
right?
Like when you think aboutsomebody, everybody loved Kmart.
They loved the blue lightspecials, they loved all of
those aspects, and then all of asudden, they didn't modernize,
they didn't adapt, and theydidn't, they didn't position
themselves for the customer oftomorrow.
They were really stuck in thecustomer of yesterday.
Alan Gregerman (12:19):
So Yeah, so that's a great example.
And think about this foreverybody listening.
260 of the Fortune 500 20 yearsago don't exist today.
So that's more than half of thegreat businesses in America
that no longer remainedrelevant, like Kmart.
They lost their mojo orwhatever they lost.
(12:42):
They lost their connection withcustomers, and they simply
disappeared.
That's kind of shocking, isn'tit?
Well, and it's going to happenfaster every five years.
So we need to positionourselves to not let that
happen.
Jay Johnson (12:56):
Well, and yeah, I even think about somebody like
Blockbuster, right?
They saw the writing on thewall, had the resources that
they could have utilized thewisdom of ignorance and said,
hey, somebody's onto somethingover here.
Let's jump in and learn alittle bit more about this and
how the customers are reactingto it.
And we might still have a fewstores here and there, but
(13:19):
there's one.
Alan Gregerman (13:19):
It's in Bend, Oregon, right.
But there were 9,094Blockbuster stores, mostly in
the U.S., some in Canada.
I think a few in Mexico.
They've disappeared, right?
And you're exactly right.
So the folks at Blockbuster sawthat the writing was on the
wall, that people were startingto first get DVDs like Netflix
(13:42):
did, and then eventually theywere moving towards something
called streaming that wasappearing.
Um, actually, the folks atNetflix who were struggling
early on offered to sellthemselves to Blockbuster for
$50 million, and Blockbustersaid, no, we're good.
We got retail stores.
Heartbreaking.
Well, yeah.
(14:02):
How many people listening wentinto a Sears this past weekend?
Jay Johnson (14:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and I think that's so uhit's so spot on to what you had
said, though, is Blockbusterthought that they knew
everything.
They didn't create the spacefor it.
They thought that they had it.
They had the secret sauce,we've been doing this, we've got
10,000 stores.
What do you know?
(14:26):
And I there's it's there issuch a danger in that, not only
at that corporate level, butjust as an individual doing our
job.
Right.
I I think one of the phrasesthat I hear boards of directors,
especially like when you have anew person that joins a board
of directors, and you know, theycome in with innovation, and
(14:48):
and this this comes to aquestion, Alan, because I think
this is so important.
I come in, I'm on a new boardof directors, I've got all these
ideas, right?
I was either elected,appointed, whatever it is.
I come in and I hit a wall ofthat's not how we do things, or
uh, we've always done it thisway, and that way works.
(15:08):
What happens when you're theperson that is leaning into the
innovation, is is is you know uhliving the wisdom of ignorance.
But you receive just thatpushback or resistance from the
wall of no.
Alan Gregerman (15:26):
Right.
So you have a I think a coupleof options.
Well, you have always havethree options, I think.
But the options that I think ofare you say to yourself, can I
create a campaign to influenceenough of these people to
realize that we need to change?
And I say that as a boardmember, but I would also say
that as a new employee.
(15:46):
I come in with ideas, I've beensomewhere else, I have some
fresh perspectives.
I look around and I see thatwe're awesome.
I'm lucky to be here, but thereare things we could do better.
I suggest those things.
And so I either create acampaign in which I get enough
other people to think those aregood ideas, or I say, nah, I
thought I could make somethinghappen here.
(16:08):
I thought I would be valuable,I thought they would listen to
some of the ideas I have.
Um I can't make it happen.
I'm gonna look somewhere else,or I just sit back and say it's
a nine to five job.
We obviously don't want thelast two things to happen,
right?
As managers, we don't want tolose the best members of our
team.
As HR leaders, we don't want tohave a talent drain of people
(16:30):
who could actually make usbetter who decide, nah, it's
impossible.
I just can't push the rock upthe hill.
Um, so we need to get people tofigure out how to make things
happen.
And we need to be more open toideas.
And as a board, a board needsto be open to ideas.
But think about how most boardsare picked.
Some of them are the friends ofthe leaders of a company.
(16:53):
Others are picked because theyhave a certain technical
function that, of course, isn'tgoing to be a function that's
going to suggest ways we need tochange.
And then other folks, I don'tknow how they got on boards.
I know I, as a somewhat deviantthinker, am not regularly
invited onto boards.
Jay Johnson (17:11):
I would say that some of them got onto the boards
back when Jesus appointed them,and they've been there ever
since.
We're just waiting for them togive up their seat.
Good point.
Okay.
Alan Gregerman (17:22):
Yeah.
That's fair.
Jay Johnson (17:23):
Well, I I I want to bring this into and I'm going
to keep the thread here, but Ithink that this is really
important.
I I've been doing a lot ofdifferent conversations and
talks on generations in theworkplace.
And I think that this is kindof an interesting take on the
questions of innovation.
You've got, and this was true,let's say 15 years ago when
(17:45):
everybody was worried aboutmillennials coming into the
workforce and taking over.
Now we're into the Gen Z.
By 2030, I think the mostrecent stat, 32% of the
workforce is going to be Gen Z.
And Gen Z's Gen Z cut a littlebit of a different cloth.
They come in with ideas andthey want to share those ideas.
(18:06):
And I think this is going toget into some of the engagement
conversation as well, right?
They're coming in with ideas.
They've got a very differentlens in which they've uh look at
the, you know, look at theworld of work.
And we know from generationalresearch, generally, it's the
things that you've livedthrough.
This is this is a generationthat has lived through economic
(18:28):
uncertainty and terrorism.
And they've never had uhthey've never not had access to
a high-powered supercomputer anda video camera in their pockets
at all times.
So that's definitely shapedsome different behaviors.
So my question is is they comein, they've got these ideas, and
what ends up happening, andthis is not all, this is not all
(18:51):
generations, but let's just sayGen X.
All right.
So I'm close enough betweenMillennial and Gen X that I can
pick on either of them.
So I'm picking on Gen X.
Gen X says, keep your headdown, do your work, don't, don't
get out of line, don't jump inthere, you know, stay out of
trouble.
And they think, on some level,I'm protecting this person.
They just don't know, theydon't understand, they don't
(19:13):
have the experience.
So I'm saying they're doing itfrom this place of like, I'm
gonna call it, they're doing itwith the right intention, but
maybe having a negative impacton innovation, engagement, etc.
How do you navigate some ofthose different experiential
gaps, right?
Like you and I might have anexperiential gap, but it seems
(19:34):
to me both of us are thecollaborative type of creatures
that would be like, wow, that'sfascinating.
Okay, let's hear what you got.
Where's that coming from?
How do you create or instillthat sort of idea towards
collaboration when you do havesome level of experience or
disparities in knowledge or uhexpertise?
Alan Gregerman (19:53):
Okay, that's fair.
But let me let me go back forone second, because one of the
things you said is particularlyimportant, I think, for me and
hopefully for your audience.
And that is the idea, ascompanies and organizations,
wouldn't we want new people tocome in and make us better?
So I just want to put that outthere.
Now I'll share what I think weought to do.
(20:15):
So some of the people listeningare in organizations that have
something called orientation.
And so orientation is kind ofan interesting thing.
We come in for a couple ofdays, we hang out with the other
new employees, they teach usexactly how we've always done
things, and then they give usour work and say, here's your
cube, good luck, may the forcebe with you.
(20:37):
We'll see you at the holidayparty.
So if I were to begin to changethis, I would change the moment
somebody arrived.
It is so competitive to get ajob now that I'm guessing
whoever you hired has done anawful lot of homework on your
company.
They know your values, they'reon the website, they know
roughly what you do, they knowroughly what they've bargained
(20:59):
for.
Now they show up, and here'swhat I'd do.
I'd say, we're delighted tohave you here.
I'd give them a clipboard andI'd give them blank sheets of
paper with a line down themiddle.
I'd say, what we want you to dofor the next couple days is
just wander around.
Knock on people's doors,hopefully they're open, talk to
people, attend meetings, payattention to us, walk the halls,
(21:22):
look and see what we do, walkthe factory if we have a
factory.
And what we want you to do asyou're doing that is on the
right hand side of the page,write everything down that you
see us doing and you say, gosh,I'm so lucky to be here.
These folks are awesome.
And on the left hand side ofthe page, we want you to write
down everything where you say toyourself, these folks are
(21:44):
clueless.
Do they ever get out of theoffice?
Do they have any idea what'sgoing on in the world around
them?
Then what we want you to do iswe want you to present your list
to our management team.
For the things you think werereally good, we'll pat ourselves
on the back.
For the things you think wereclueless, we'll have a
conversation about those.
And then we'd like you to pickone of those, day two, day
(22:06):
three, and help us to be better.
The only caveat is we'd likeyou to find some other people
that you've met along the waythat will help you do it.
So what we're saying is whensomebody arrives, they matter.
I don't care what generationthey are, they're here to make
us better.
They're gonna do their job, butthey're gonna take on an extra
project to figure out a way tomake us better that's obvious to
(22:28):
them, and they're gonna findfolks to collaborate with.
They're gonna build a team andconnect with other people.
That changes the equation sodramatically.
And so I've done that with alot of the companies we work
with.
And suddenly new people areenergized.
Talk about engagement.
What's the most difficult thingfor people?
Is they show up and they feelpretty quickly it's hard to
(22:49):
connect, it's hard to belong.
Now, Ed, one of the things Ithink that you were alluding to,
they've also gone new youngpeople have gone through COVID,
right?
And so they went through an erawhere they actually were
convinced it was great to workremotely.
I mean, what a no, I don'tknow.
There are a bunch of peoplelistening who probably like to
(23:09):
work remotely.
But if I'm a new employee, Iwant to be around other people.
I want to learn from otherpeople, I want to be mentored, I
want to have a face-to-facewith people.
I don't just want to be on ascreen and engage with people.
So the reality is we have ageneration in which they're
already kind of disattached ordisassociated with our company.
(23:30):
And now we just tell them,okay, sit at your kitchen table
and just crunch this workout,and you know, and we'll meet
once a week.
And that's awesome, isn't it?
So I think we miss the chanceto truly engage them, give them
a sense of belonging, and tapthe genius in them.
But again, I go back to thisidea.
I don't want another employeewho isn't going to make us
(23:50):
better.
I don't need that.
Employees that just come andcontinue to crunch out the work
and make us the same, that'sexhausting for me.
Jay Johnson (24:00):
Well, and Alan, I love that because basically what
you're doing is turning all ofthose new employees into
high-priced consultants.
Hey, come in here and take alook at what we're doing as an
outside objective person that'sgoing to be able to give us some
recommendations and guidance tofix those.
I mean, I there's an entirefield of work for that, and
(24:20):
you're getting an onboardedemployee engaged and owning
something that early, that's apretty cool experience.
Alan Gregerman (24:28):
Yeah, no, I th I had never thought about it that
way because I'd hate to thinkthey put me out of work.
Jay Johnson (24:33):
Yeah, thanks, Alan.
Appreciate it.
Alan Gregerman (24:35):
No, no, no.
But if they land and are happyand make a difference, I'm
happy.
It's great.
I think we just need people tobe bring their best to work, and
they don't bring their bestunless we say to them we
actually care about what youknow.
Jay Johnson (24:50):
Alan, I've noticed in and I'm loving this
conversation.
I I've noticed in a number oforganizations um critical
thinking.
And I'm going to call itcritical thinking, problem
solving skills are often beingcommodified and just owned by
leadership.
(25:10):
And you know, you got a bunchof people that are working,
let's say, let's say a mid-levelmanager who oversees six
people.
And this is one of the jokesthat I've made with some of the
mid-level managers that I'veworked with is congratulations,
you've become six people'sGoogle.
You're their own trustedbrowser.
(25:30):
You are their AI because youconstantly are solving their
problems.
And and I and when I say this,I don't, you know, when we're in
a leadership position, we wantto be supportive, we want to be
helpful, we want to guide, wewant to give this.
But I often think that there'ssomething lost there, that we're
not creating the conditions forco-collaboration and in solving
(25:54):
a problem, or that you know, webecome over-reliant on going to
that quote expert authority toget our problem solved.
How can we really inspire?
And I think inspire is theright word here, and you can
correct me if if you hear adifferent word.
How can we inspire people tomaybe take the time to try?
(26:15):
Because I I see a lot of I seea lot of just help me get this
done, rather than the struggleit takes to actually learn how
to do it.
unknown (26:25):
Right.
Alan Gregerman (26:26):
No, so I think that's fair.
Um if I ruled the world formany of the folks who are
listening, as a leader, what Iwould do is each month, I would
try to identify a critical issuethat we need to be better at as
an organization in order tomove forward.
And I would put that out thereto everyone.
(26:47):
And I don't care if they're 20people or 50 people or 500 or
10,000 people in anorganization.
I would say this is somethingwe need to be better at.
We need to improve technicalsupport, we need to improve our
distribution chain.
We need to use technology innew ways.
We need to unlock the value ofAI in a way that it supports us
(27:08):
as humans.
Um and so I'd put thatchallenge out and I'd say this
month we're all gonna thinkabout it.
I'd like you to organize asteams who are passionate about
an idea, do some thinking aboutit, and then come back to us
with your ideas.
And then we're gonna sortthrough all these ideas and
figure out do we have somewisdom yet about the direction
(27:28):
to take?
So I think we need to engagepeople, we need to challenge
them to be at their best, and weneed to challenge them to also
understand you know, my book,The Wisdom of Ignorance, is
about innovation.
And so let me share with yourlisteners kind of the untold
truth about innovation.
You know, most of the time incompanies we need to be
(27:50):
innovative, and so whoever's theboss says, uh, bring some
bright people together in aroom, we might have whiteboards,
sticky notes, all kinds ofthings, and says, you know, we
need to be better at this.
Does anybody have anout-of-the-box idea?
It's as though we've all cometo work with just inside-the-box
ideas, as though we're allstupid.
But now that they've asked usto turn on that part of our
brain with an out-of-the-boxidea, I'm all over that.
(28:13):
But it turns out that 99% ofall new ideas throughout the
course of history have beenbased on somebody else's
thinking or something someonefound in nature.
And so if that's the case, thenit changes the equation for all
these people I want toenergize.
I don't need to say to thesepeople, just sit in a room and
(28:34):
kind of look at that blank sheetof paper until your head
bursts, or you need a Kit Katbar or whatever the case is.
What I want you to do is eitheruse your phone, I don't know
where my phone is, or I want youto actually get out of the
office and wander around andlook for the 99% of ideas that
are going to make us better.
What I need all of you to doare be the folks that find
(28:56):
ideas, bring them back, and thenconnect those dots between an
idea you found and us beingbetter, and then we work out the
details.
That's actually how innovationoccurs.
And so what I find is folkssay, well, that's great.
We have like Skunkworks and ateam, and these people hide in a
room and they're coming up withbrilliant ideas.
And I go, like, why?
You know, there's so manybrilliant ideas out there that
(29:19):
we just need to adapt to ourworld to be awesome.
And so I really want folks tothink about the idea that we
can, I love your word inspire.
Um, we have to, as leaders,inspire people to take
initiative.
We need to be clear about ourpurpose and what really matters.
We need to help them focus sothey don't waste their time on
(29:41):
things that won't move the dial.
But we need to move people tobe inspired to try and find
brilliance out there, bring itback, and then say if we tweak
this idea, we could be amazing.
Jay Johnson (29:55):
I love that, Alan.
So I I got another question,and I'm going to relate this.
This one of the programs thatwe run is called Behavioral
Elements.
And what it does is it measurescore biological drives.
And the drives were actuallyestablished by two management
scientists from HarvardUniversity, Dr.
Paul Lawrence, Dr.
Nitt and Noria.
(30:15):
We measure these drives.
One of the drives is the driveto learn.
It's associated with ourhippocampal region,
acetylcholine, and it's thatsort of like curiosity, the
natural, like hardwiredneurobiology of curiosity and
innovation and exploration.
The opposing drive is the driveto defend.
(30:36):
And that is the one that says,I do not like uncertainty.
I don't want to do something, Idon't want to walk into that
cave if there is the possibilitythat there's a lion in that
cave.
I need to be certain thatthere's no lion in that cave.
And this is much more of ourdrive that that establishes
patterns of behavior like umsystems, process, quality, etc.
(30:57):
Each of us have these drives.
Some people are lean moretowards the drive to learn than
they do the drive to defend.
Other people lean more towardsthe drive to defend.
How do we manage?
Because and I always make thisjoke.
If you ever get a phone call, Ineed you to come down to my
office.
Most human beings are not goingto be like, yes, I'm getting a
(31:20):
raise.
They're going to be like, oh myGod, what did I do?
And it's immediately going togo into the threat protection,
the negative protection.
So we have these two opposingforces.
If I am more sitting on thatside of the drive to defend, I
like to be sure, I like to becertain, that brings me joy, it
hits my dopamine circuits.
(31:40):
How do I how do I manage thateither fear of uncertainty, fear
of failure?
How do I take that first stepinto the unknown?
Alan Gregerman (31:49):
Okay.
So when you talk about thedrive to live in a world of
certainty, I believe that'sbecause we believe that that's
what they're paying us to do, toget the things done that we
expect people to get done.
So again, I hate to bring itall back to leaders, but leaders
(32:09):
are really important.
We have to, as leaders, say,we're not going to bet the ranch
here.
There's going to be a level ofcertainty here.
A significant part of what youdo is gonna be the stuff you're
comfortable doing.
I'm okay with that.
But that's not gonna get us tothe future.
We live in an uncertain world.
We all have to raise the bar.
(32:30):
And that's why I love the wholenotion of let's be great, let's
continue to be better at thestuff we do.
And so for those folks who likethe world of certainty, I say,
I just need you to figure outhow we can be better at the
certain part of our work.
You know, the stuff thatresonates with customers now.
And the folks who like theworld of learning, I need to
(32:52):
energize those folks and say, Iknow that a big part of what we
do in the future is gonna bedifferent.
You guys need to take the leadin helping us to get there.
You need to ask questions,learn new things, explore the
world, look for ideas, bringideas back to us, and experiment
with ways we can be betterbecause some of those
(33:12):
experiments are gonna lead us tobe remarkable in the future.
And so I like to balance thosetwo things.
Um, I learned one thing, and Ihave to admit, I don't have a
PhD in adult developmentalpsychology.
But one of the things I didlearn from a psychology class
was that adults don't changevery easily.
(33:34):
And so I'm not gonna show upone day, you know, and may wave
a magic wand and say, okay, youlike certainty.
I'm gonna get you to be aperson who likes learning and
uncertainty.
I know that's not the case.
But I do know as leaders, weowe it to everybody to get them
to understand that the world ischanging.
We absolutely have to do thatand that they need to be part of
(33:57):
helping us get there.
You know, you've mentionedseveral times, and I couldn't
agree more.
We're gonna get there bycollaborating.
We're not gonna get there byall being individual superstars.
We're gonna get there bybringing the diverse ideas we
have together as part of a team,asking lots of questions,
(34:19):
looking at things in differentways, and then together figuring
out what's the best pathforward.
But we need leaders to sanctionus to do that.
And if I'm in an organizationwhere a leader is kind of asleep
at the wheel, the worst thing Ican have is a leader who spends
all of their time in the worldof certainty.
What I want is my leaders to bebalanced.
(34:41):
I want them to have part oftheir time, I don't know which
hand is that, part of their timein the world of certainty, and
part of their time, I want themto say, we're gonna have to do
things differently.
And so if I have those kind ofleaders, I can find my place.
And then as a person who likescertainty, and if a leader says,
you don't have to worry, ifyou're continuing to do great
(35:05):
work, we need you.
But we want that great work tomorph into us being even better.
And I believe in you.
You know, one of the things Iknow about adult development
psychology, and let's be honest,I have a PhD in geography, but
one of the things I know aboutadult developmental psychology
is the idea that if we can getpeople to believe that we
(35:27):
believe in them, that we believethat they have the potential to
do something that changes theequation.
Then I'm not horrified whensomebody calls me.
Then I go in and I know thatthey believe in me.
It may not be the best newsright now, but we're together
going to figure out a pathforward.
Jay Johnson (35:45):
Yeah, and that concept of having the shared
future and the trusting in theshared future is so powerful.
But I love what you said.
You're absolutely spot on.
You know, high expectationsrequire a high level of support
and connection.
You know, we can hold somebodyvery accountable to really high
standards, but it's got to bematched with that care and
(36:07):
support.
So let's let's uh one quickquestion here.
All right.
So innovation, oftentimes, Imean, we see different
innovations.
We do we see people trying, trynew things, try something
different.
Sometimes it works, sometimesit doesn't work, but failure.
Failure universally from ahuman perspective, uh initially,
(36:28):
I would say most people are notcomfortable with failure.
Now, I think that there aresome people, particularly maybe
entrepreneurs, that step into itand kind of look at it maybe a
little differently.
It's not failure, it's alearning opportunity.
I didn't fail, I'm just it'sthe next iteration, and so on
and so forth.
But with that being said, Iwould say a sizable portion of
(36:48):
the population worries aboutfailure.
I don't want to try this newthing that could be better
because it could cost thecompany a ton of money.
Or I don't want to do thisbecause if I do this and it
doesn't work, my manager's gonnalose faith in me or lose that
trust in me, lose that feelingin me.
That feeling of failure, Ithink, obviously holds back.
(37:09):
And I know that the leaders andeverything else.
So I'll ask a very directquestion here.
Do you think celebratingfailures is a good practice?
Or is there another way that weshould approach when a failure
occurs in an organization?
Alan Gregerman (37:26):
Well, so it depends how we define
celebrating failures.
So I think we, you know, goingback to what we were talking
about, I think we need to learnfrom failures.
So is that celebrating, or isthat I've learned this the next
time I'm gonna do itdifferently?
What I always tell thecompanies we work with is we're
gonna create an engine offailing fast and failing small.
(37:50):
So they're gonna be failures,but we're gonna do them fast
because the world is movingreally fast.
And I'm not gonna invest a lotin an idea until I've actually
proven that there are firstcustomers out there and second
that I can deliver on the ideathat I have.
So that changes the entireequation.
What I worry about is all thesecompanies that ask all these
(38:12):
people to work on projects thatnever see the light of day, and
then they've invested, as yousuggest, they've invested a lot
of time, they've invested a lotof kind of person power, they've
invested a lot of theirpassion, and then it just
doesn't happen.
Think about who we're competingagainst.
It's three people who over aweekend come up with a
(38:36):
half-brained idea, they eat someartisan pizza, they drink their
favorite IPAs, and then onMonday they share it with some
customers.
That's what an entrepreneurdoes, okay?
And then the customer says,either this is a great idea or
this is a pretty lame idea.
And if the customer says it's agreat idea, then we simply say,
(38:57):
Great, help us make it better.
We came up with the 75% idea.
Um, we knew it wasn't going tobe perfect, but we knew that
you'd have a lot of insight.
Then the customer tells us howto make it better, or a set of
potential customers.
We go and make it better thenext weekend.
Maybe we have another artisanpizza, or maybe we bring in Thai
food.
(39:18):
I don't know the answer.
And then we have a differentkind of premium beverage, and
then we send it back out tothem.
That's how entrepreneurs work.
If we can't in organizationscome close to that, we can't
win.
So that's why I say we need tobe experimenting all the time,
but we're not experimenting witha lot of money or a lot of
(39:40):
time.
We're making tests, we'resharing them with customers,
we're connected with the outsideworld, and we're really trying
to learn.
So then are we celebrating?
I don't have time to celebratea failure.
I barely have time to celebratea victory.
What I have is enough time todo a quick post-mortem on what
(40:01):
did we learn from that that wecan apply to the next thing we
try, and then let's be smarter.
Um, there's no I have noproblem with people kind of not
knowing or being ignorant.
I have a problem with themtrying something and not being
smarter when they try somethingnew.
And I believe all of us havethe ability to learn.
(40:23):
You know, it gets to.
So go back to what you weretalking about is I believe we
can want certainty, but alsowant to learn.
And so we all got to belearners.
You know, in a world changingfast, we all got to be learners.
Whatever we learn in school, Idon't want to say it's
irrelevant, but we got to recastit to be relevant, I think.
Jay Johnson (40:45):
We learned how to learn, and I think that that's
really the biggest thing that wetake away.
So, Alan, this is such afascinating conversation, and I
am certain that some of ouraudience would love to connect
with you and dig deeper.
Well, how would they reach outto you?
Alan Gregerman (41:01):
Okay, well, I appreciate that.
And I've loved theconversation.
So thanks for inviting me.
Um, they can find out about meby going to my website, which is
simply alangregorman.com,A-L-A-N-G-R-E, G-E-R-M-A-N.com.
They can connect with me onLinkedIn.
Um, I would prefer if theyconnected with me and not follow
(41:23):
me.
You know, if they're interestedin my ideas, I'm interested in
kind of what they're working on.
So connect with me on LinkedIn.
They can, I would love it ifthey bought my book.
Jay Johnson (41:33):
That's such a beautiful cover, too.
Alan Gregerman (41:36):
Well, thank you.
No, I love I really like thisbook, but I'll make this offer
to your viewers, and that is ifthey buy my book and don't find
it valuable, I will Venmo themwhatever they spent.
I'll buy it back from them.
Wow.
I don't want them to beunsatisfied.
You know, and I learned thatfrom our dear friends at LL
(41:56):
Bean, who in 1912 offered anunconditional guarantee of
satisfaction.
I want people to be happy withmy book.
But um, yeah, so those areprobably the easiest ways to
connect with me.
I would love to have peopleconnect with me.
I post on LinkedIn prettyregularly.
Feel free to follow kind of thethings as long as you connect
with me.
Yeah.
Jay Johnson (42:17):
I love that, Alan.
And I will be connecting withyou and hoping to continue
conversations because I think wescratched the surface.
And this has been such afascinating conversation.
I just want to say thank youfor joining me today, for
sharing your wisdom, yourexperience, and insight, and
even sharing some of yourignorances, I guess.
Alan Gregerman (42:39):
Oh, well, thank you for that.
No, actually, one of ourcustomers recently, you could
appreciate it, said, you know,when it comes to not knowing
stuff, Alan Gregerman is agenius.
Jay Johnson (42:50):
I love that, I think.
No, that's beautiful.
The book is The Wisdom ofIgnorance, and I encourage you,
audience, to check it out.
If we are not innovating,changing, learning, adapting, we
are probably going the way ofthe Dodo Bird as well as Kmart
and all of the others.
So it's definitely somethingthat I find to be incredibly
(43:13):
important.
And today was just so many goodthoughts, tactics, mindset
shifts.
I can't thank you enough, Alan.
Thank you again.
Alan Gregerman (43:21):
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me on.
Loved it.
Jay Johnson (43:23):
And thank you, audience, for tuning into this
episode of the Talent Forge,where together we are shaping
workforce behaviors.
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