August 8, 2025 • 41 mins
Leadership doesn't require a fancy title, an MBA, or a corner office. What it does demand is authenticity, communication, and genuine care for the people you work with. This transformative perspective forms the heart of my conversation with Mandee Bowsmith, an HR veteran with over 24 years of experience who's now dedicated to democratizing leadership training.
Mandee's journey from temporary file clerk to HR director offers a refreshing counterpoint to traditional leadership narratives. Throughout our discussion, she challenges the notion that HR departments must function as organizational disciplinarians, advocating instead for "putting humanity back in human resources." Her approach centers on creating environments where employees feel valued, understood, and genuinely supported—not just managed.
Whether you're an HR professional looking to transform your department's reputation, a leader seeking to connect more authentically with your team, or someone who's never seen yourself as leadership material, this conversation offers practical wisdom for bringing more humanity to the workplace. Listen now and discover how clear communication, reasonable compassion, and authentic connection can transform not just your leadership approach, but your entire organization.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof talent development.
I am joined today by specialguest Mandee Bowsmith.
Welcome to the show, Mandee.
Mandee Bowsmith (00:12):
Thank you very much.
I'm excited to be here to talktoday about talent and HR stuff
and leadership stuff.
Jay Johnson (00:20):
Love it, so glad that you were able to join us.
Can you start by maybe tellingour audience a little bit about
yourself and how you got intothis talent development space?
Mandee Bowsmith (00:29):
Sure, I am a I don't know if you want to call
it a veteran, but I have been inhuman resources for over 24
years in government, so Istarted my career in municipal
government at the city of LasVegas in Nevada.
Jay Johnson (00:45):
That had to be fun.
Mandee Bowsmith (00:47):
It was interesting.
Well, I was born and raised inVegas, so you know.
But city of Las Vegas iscertainly an interesting
municipality.
There's a lot going on withinthe city jurisdiction and I
started my career as a temporaryfile clerk in the workers'
compensation section in HR andworked my way up.
I have been an HR director in acity setting and I've also been
(01:14):
the head of human resources ina state setting, and recently I
made a transition and opened myown coaching and consulting firm
where I'm focused on governmentleaders, but leadership in
general, trying to bringleadership to the masses, if you
will.
Jay Johnson (01:31):
I love that.
No, that's incredible, bringingleadership to the masses.
So I want to dig in onsomething that you said there,
because one of the things youknow when people when general
people think of HR, they thinkof the hey, I need you to come
down to my office right, likethey think of who's processing
my payroll.
And one of the things that I'velearned over the course of my
(01:52):
career is that sometimes theactual aspects of HR and the
aspects of talent developmentare very, very separated, and
sometimes talent is under HR,sometimes it's completely
separate.
You are navigating a spacewhere you've been in the HR or
the director of HR positions andalso are doing talent
(02:13):
development.
Can you maybe speak to thatjust a little bit?
What's that transition looklike?
Or was it always sort of anatural thing for you to kind of
have a foot in both of thoseworlds?
What does that look like forMandee?
Mandee Bowsmith (02:26):
Actually, you know, the funny thing is is
early in my career.
So at city of Las Vegas, the,the training and development
group is under human resources.
So, to me, it's natural for forthe to be the place that it
lives, and it's weird when it'sexternal, from from human
resources, but it seems to methat human resources, as a
(02:47):
discipline and as a department,is an organization's only one
true internal servicesdepartment.
Right, this is the departmentthat is set up and is supposed
to be the one that employees canlean on for help to get
questions answered to.
You know, hey, I don't knowabout my health insurance, what
about this?
Or, hey, can I take this class?
(03:08):
Or whatever, and HR is supposedto be the people who help
employees, you know, get rid ofthose little worries so they can
go off and do the job that theywere hired to do.
A lot of times, though and overthe course of my career, it's
been, it's been true HR has abad rap, because the perception
is that we are the bad guys.
Jay Johnson (03:29):
Because a lot of times right.
Mandee Bowsmith (03:32):
We're the bad cop right, and part of that I
will offer, part of that is aleadership problem, because a
lot of what we see are peoplewho are in positions of
leadership who are notcomfortable with conflict,
they're not comfortable withconflict resolution and they
don't have those skills and sothey would rather push it off
(03:53):
onto an HR person to, you know,do the dirty work per se.
Jay Johnson (03:57):
Yeah.
Mandee Bowsmith (03:58):
Rather than trying to handle the situation
themselves and you know there'sa lot of nuance, of course to
human resources, nothing we dois black and white.
It is 7 million shades of gray.
You can have the same set offacts and have a completely
different situation in front ofyou, and the variable there is
(04:18):
the human right, absolutely.
One of the things in Blue NoteResources, which is the firm
that I opened, one of my goals,along with leadership and
helping leaders become morehuman leaders, is putting the
humanity back in human resources, showing people that human
resources is not the place wheresomebody goes when they're in
(04:41):
trouble.
It's not the principal's office, right.
It's a place where you can goand get questions answered.
It's also a place where you canbe listened to.
I've learned that nine timesout of 10, you have a problem
employee and they're just notperforming.
Something is going on.
Usually, they just want to belistened to.
(05:03):
Something is happening right,either something with a coworker
, something with, say, software.
They're using something with aproject they're working on.
They just want to be listenedto and if you give them 20
minutes of your time, theytypically, it course, corrects
itself right.
So putting the humanity back inHR and back in leadership is how
(05:29):
I believe we can help.
Number one, help our employeesto do the best that they can do
every day for whateverorganization we're talking about
.
But also, number two, to reallybring a sense of belonging and
understanding to employees in anorganization.
Because you spend most of yourtime at work, why not make it a
(05:53):
place where people understandhow they fit, where people
understand what they'recontributing to the bottom line
and where they're happy to spendmost of their day.
Where they're happy to spendmost of their day.
Jay Johnson (06:04):
Well, and I love what you're bringing up there,
right, because connection is oneof the things that we all need
to find at work and we don'talways think about it that way.
But if we don't feel connected,valued, seen, we disengage, we
pull back, eventually we becomedisgruntled and eventually we
say, hey, I'm not part of thistribe anymore and we leave.
And it's a huge issue right now, you know, with quiet, quitting
(06:25):
, disengagement and turnover.
I mean, these are things thatbig companies, every single
company that I'm working withthis is what keeps their
leadership up at night.
And I want to go back to whatyou said about this being a
challenge with leadership,because I think that's a really
important piece to kind of go onhere.
How have you and let's takethis one more step down the road
(06:47):
?
You're right and I know thisand you know this and anybody,
any of our listeners in the HRworld know this it is a
difficult transition to getemployees to say, no, I'm
actually here to help you.
I truly believe that people thatare coming into HR, they want
to help people.
They don't want to be the stickper se, they don't want to be
(07:08):
the enforcer, the gatekeeper oranything else, but that's often,
you're right, they getpigeonholed into that position.
But most of the people that I'veever interacted with in HR are
truly committed, caring peoplethat want to see both the team,
the people individually and theorganization thrive and survive
(07:29):
and to be a place that everybodywants to work at.
I don't think anybody's ever,you know, joined HR, twisting
their mustache, sitting in theback, going, how can I really
screw over my employees today?
So, despite all of that becausethere is this sort of balance
of having to sometimes play thatrole of the bad cop and in
(07:50):
other cases going, hey, come tothis training or come to this
development opportunity andpeople going, okay, you just,
you just were the person thathad to threaten me four minutes
ago and now you want me to cometo the party now, right, how did
you balance that?
How did you sort of create theconditions of trust and
(08:10):
connection amongst the people tosay, okay, yeah, it's almost
like you know the parent, thatthey can discipline you, but
they're also going to show youthat love and kindness and care.
How did you navigate that?
Because I think that's going tobe something really interesting
to any of our HR folkslistening.
Mandee Bowsmith (08:27):
You know for myself and people have told me
that I am not normal Me too, myentire life I have a very simple
philosophy in terms of humanresources and in terms of how I
work, and it's difficult ingovernment, right, but my
(08:48):
philosophy is do what's right,not what's easy, Because if it's
easy, I can guarantee you ingovernment it ain't right, right
.
The way that government is setup, everything is a slog,
everything is hard, and so ifyou have found something to do,
that's easy, it's wrong.
Jay Johnson (09:08):
Mandee in a past life.
It really feels like a pastlife at this point in time.
I was an elected official in mylocal municipality of 50,000
people and I 1,000% agree withyou.
If it's easy, you misssomething.
Mandee Bowsmith (09:24):
Something is wrong.
Jay Johnson (09:26):
You miss something.
So.
I love that Keep going.
Mandee Bowsmith (09:29):
Yeah, no people , people laugh at me, but it's
true, right, it do what's right,not what's easy.
But not only that.
I believe wholly inauthenticity and it did.
And I'll tell you, jay, it tookme a while to come to who my
authentic self was as an HRprofessional, but I'm a straight
(09:49):
shooter.
When people work with me, theyknow that what they're going to
get from me is the truth.
They're going to get the truth,they're going to get exactly
what's going on, and, butthey're going to get it in a way
that's respectful.
And but they're going to get itin a way that's respectful and
that is and it wasn't alwayskind either right, like cause.
Sometimes you do have to besort of hard-nosed about what's
(10:13):
happening, but I, I was the.
I was the kind of leader withinthe organization where people
knew exactly what they weregoing to get from me.
So if they came to me to ask mea question or if they wanted to
know, you know, hey, why am Igetting this poor performance
report?
They knew I was going to givethem the straight dope every
time, and what that bought mewas I'm going to.
Jay Johnson (10:35):
I'm going to, I'm going to get something that you
said there real quick, becauseyou mentioned that it might not
be kind, but I think that iskind and I'm going to lean
straight into Brene Brown'swords on this Clear is kind,
unclear is unkind.
And while it may be direct orwhile it may be hard to hear the
(10:58):
fact that you're not sugar, Ithink that is a kindness and I
think that speaks a lot to yourcharacter, Mandee, because when
we are in that situation whereit is easier for us to say, gosh
, I could sugarcoat this, Icould make this a little lighter
.
Or I'm going to have to tellyou hey, you know, jay, you've
got a booger on your nose.
You're probably going to wantto fix that.
(11:18):
That may not feel kind to tellme, but trust me in my heart of
hearts, I need to know this.
Mandee Bowsmith (11:24):
You know, and so please continue on that.
Jay Johnson (11:27):
But I just I really think that that's important,
and I think it's important forour audience.
Being clear is an act ofkindness, and you can do that in
an authentic way, in a kind way.
Right, we don't have to come inthere with a bat of truth,
right and.
Mandee Bowsmith (11:43):
I think that's one of the things in terms of
leadership that I there.
There are all these myths,right Right there.
There's all this myth ofsurrounding what a leader is,
who a leader is, what kind ofperson can be a leader, and you
know, with all due respect tothe establishment, I think it's
bull, Because I think thatanybody can be a leader.
(12:05):
I think that anybody can learnthe concepts of being a leader.
In my own leadership role, Itried my best to number one,
connect with everybody who was asubordinate to me, understand
who they were, how they fit inthe puzzle of the organization
and what they did, because thenI understood what was going on
(12:30):
and if there were problems,let's say, in payroll, I was
over payroll.
If there were problems inpayroll, I could have a better
understanding of what thoseproblems were and then be able
to relay them to, let's say, acustomer that was having a hard
time.
I mean, one of the things thatI did and this sounds so sort of
silly and I had peers of minetell me that it was a poor
(12:55):
choice to do this but I spent aweek as the front desk person in
payroll answering the phone,doing the mail, trying to
distribute the stuff, and thereason was twofold.
Number one because they wereshort-staffed and they just
needed to get payroll out and Iwas trying to help lighten the
load in any way I could right.
(13:16):
The second part was then Iunderstood.
I understood the volume ofphone calls they get.
I understood the volume ofsnail mail they get.
I understood the volume ofsnail mail they get.
I understood the volume ofemail, and then I could fight
for them with my bosses about weneed more people, we need more
(13:36):
resources, we need this, we needthat right.
If you're a leader who refusesto get in the trenches with your
people and understand what yourteams are really doing, you're
not a leader, you're justsomebody collecting a paycheck
in a position of faux power.
And I think that that's one ofthe things that is really
important for me to show in thework that I'm doing now in some
(14:01):
classes that I'm creating isleadership is not where you went
to college.
Leadership is not the clothesyou wear.
Leadership is not power, it'snot authority, it is
communication, it is clarity andit is reasonable compassion for
(14:21):
the people who work for you.
And if you show your teamclarity, if you are clear in
your vision, if you are clear inwhere the organization is going
and you're clear in how theyfit and you can articulate that
and you're communicating withthem as much as possible and
giving them as much informationas they're going to need to do
their jobs and do it well and tofeel like they're part of
(14:43):
what's going on.
And if you are reasonablycompassionate about when things
come up because we all have kids, we all have parents, we all
have things that come up in lifepeople will follow you anywhere
you lead.
Jay Johnson (14:57):
There's so much to unpack there, Mandee, and
incredibly stated.
First, I want to acknowledgethe fact that you went to the
front lines, because this issomething.
Have you ever heard of theconcept of a Gemba walk,
G-E-M-B-A?
It's a Japanese philosophy.
This is one of the things thatI actually ask a lot of leaders
(15:23):
to do, especially in themanufacturing side of things,
and what it is is.
It's literally getting out ontothe floor and walking the floor
and being with each of theemployees, spending time at
their station, not overseeingthem, not looking over their
shoulder, but trying tounderstand what is your job,
look like, what are thechallenges that you're facing,
and getting out there andactually seeing what is
happening in those differentpositions.
(15:44):
The fact that you did that andsat in that position for a week
what kind of empathy that musthave generated to say, hey, I
just walked a mile in your shoes, I get it, Let me have some
conversation.
Or I just walked a mile in yourshoes and maybe there's some
things that we could improve onthis side that would help you be
more effective.
But now you've got that kind ofposition of credibility by
(16:07):
leading by example.
So we're going to go down thisleadership pathway.
But I really appreciate that.
You said that when I was working, I used to be a member I guess
I'm an alumni member, I've agedout but the Junior Chamber
International, which servicesyoung leaders between the ages
of 18 and 40, I was the localchapter president and we were
(16:29):
launching a community garden andI remember the supervisor had
come out at that time and waslike Jay, like I thought you
were leading this project andI'm sitting there and I'm
fingers in the dirt and I'mdigging everything up and
everything else.
And I was like I am.
And they were like, well, whyaren't you kind of like
overseeing this?
I was like, well, people knowwhat to do, They've been
(16:50):
decentralized, they have theirdecision-making capacity.
So I'm needed here and I'mgoing to get my hands dirty.
And it was funny because thesupervisor kind of like sat down
and got down on their knees andstarted doing the same thing
that I was doing.
But I always believed that asthe leader, I was going to be
the last one to set down therake and I was going to be the
(17:11):
first one to pick up the back.
You know, if I could do thatthen I could lead with a place
of empathy and authenticity,that I wasn't going to ask
somebody to do something that Iwasn't willing to do myself.
So I love that you got in there.
Let's talk about leadership.
Let's get into this, becauseyou are launching a program for
every person.
(17:32):
You know anybody out there.
You had mentioned earlier sortof leadership for the masses.
I really love that.
You should make that yourslogan.
Let's talk about's talk aboutthat.
What, why, what inspired you tothink about creating programs
for and I love the conceptbecause I agree everybody is a
leader of their own lives, is aleader of their own station, is
(17:53):
a leader of their own family,and that doesn't matter whether
you, what gender, what title,what role you can be a leader if
you take ownership.
So what inspired you to go downthis pathway, to really kind of
focus on it?
Because you see a lot ofleadership programs.
They're focused on executiveteams and they're focused on
this.
But what inspired this?
Mandee Bowsmith (18:16):
It really comes down to the experiences that I
had, and part of it, you know,comes down to the experiences
that I had, and part of it beinga government kid, being an HR
kid in government.
Government waxes and wanes,especially municipal government,
(18:37):
and in Nevada in particular, ithas a lot to do with property.
You know property revenues andyou know when you're in city of
Las Vegas there are a lot ofcasinos and there's taxes that
go along with the casinos.
And if the casinos are doingwell, then the city does well in
terms of revenue and taxes andthings like that.
But but in downtimes, right,you don't do so well.
What's the first thing thatevery organization cuts when
(19:01):
things start to go a littlesouth?
Training.
Jay Johnson (19:04):
Training.
And then after that marketing.
And, by the way, my companydoes training and marketing
Right.
Mandee Bowsmith (19:11):
Exactly.
And then if you get that moneyback because it's not always a
guarantee that you're going toget that money back in the next
budget cycle, but if you getthat money back then it seems to
be cherry picked about who isallowed to access those funds.
Who are we going to choose?
(19:31):
Because it's kind of like thatweird popularity contest, right?
Who are we going to choose togo take the leadership training,
going to choose to go take theleadership training?
And you know what's funny is Ihave my oldest son is a freshman
in high school this year and Iwas thinking about my high
school experience and, like youknow, how I could try to help
him have a great time in highschool, and I was also thinking
(19:52):
about this leadership thingbecause I wanted to also do
something that's aimed more athis age group.
And I thought to myself wait aminute.
I can remember the studentcouncil kids in high school.
They got leadership trainingbut nobody else did, right?
So if you wanted to be a partof this specific group, you got
(20:16):
the training, but it wasn't anormal curricular lesson that
was taught.
You know, you didn't get it inEnglish class, you didn't get it
in history class, you didn'tget it in government,
surprisingly.
And I thought, well, why isthat?
And then I thought further well, that's been the way it's been
throughout my whole professionalcareer as well.
Right, people are identifiedfor one reason or another and
(20:41):
they're put forward as leadersand so we groom them and
everybody else sort of is backhere.
But what I've also noticed isthat, through my own sort of
journey and trying to figure outwho I was and what kind of a
professional I was and what Iwanted to do, I'm the kind of
person who I will pay for my owntraining because I love
(21:02):
learning, I love academia, Ilove learning.
Knowledge is like my thing.
But there are a lot of people,especially government workers,
believe it or not, that can'tafford $250 for a webinar, they
can't afford $300 for somecourse and they're never going
to have a Harvard MBA.
But that does not mean thatthey are not good leadership
(21:25):
material and perhaps thatleadership, perhaps that's shown
in their daily work with theirpeers, right.
Perhaps that's shown onprojects.
Perhaps that's shown even likein, like your fun committee or
your birthday committee or your,you know, whatever your
organization has.
People are leaders in differentways and it manifests itself in
(21:49):
different ways.
So if we give people the tools,if they're accessible, then
pardon me then they can lead.
My idea is to create coursesonline courses for people that
are both accessible, becausethey're online, and affordable,
because that affordabilityfactor is really important, you
(22:13):
know a lot of families don'thave $350 to throw around for a
leadership course.
So I apologize, my goodness,that's okay.
So that's what I'm trying to dois build accessible, affordable
leadership for everybody, forthe masses.
Anybody can take the course.
There are no prerequisites, andwhat I'm looking for are people
(22:35):
who want to learn and peoplewho maybe they have a desire to
lead, or maybe they take mycourse and they're like I'm not
doing that.
That's perfectly good too.
Jay Johnson (22:47):
Right.
Mandee Bowsmith (22:48):
But at least you know.
Jay Johnson (22:49):
I, I, I love that and here's here's part of the
reason why is one of my absolutefavorite things in the world
and and this is having.
So I served as an internationalvice president for JCI,
actually, and I was assigned toEurope and I remember being in.
I spent 140 days travelingacross the Nordic countries and
(23:13):
the Baltic countries givingtalks and doing leadership
training, et cetera.
And the number of times that Iheard somebody come to me and
say I'm not a leader, and I'mjust like, really, let's have a
conversation, let's unpack that.
What makes a leader then?
What does it look like and howdoes that function?
(23:33):
And what designates you notbeing a leader and not
comfortable with leadership.
And literally, by the time thatwe finished some of these
conversations and I pointed out,hey, you did this, you made
these decisions, you did X, yand Z, you're doing this.
Isn't that leadership?
Isn't that the kind ofleadership that you would like?
And you could see this littlelight go off, one of the
(23:56):
questions that I'm gonna comeback to.
I'm gonna mention one otherthing, but I'm gonna come back
to how will you maybe supportpeople that have that mentality
of, well, I'm not a leader,these courses aren't going to be
for me.
So that's the question I'mgoing to stick with.
But I do want to go back tosomething else that you said and
I think it's so important.
Right now I am running the elitetraining Academy, which is a
(24:18):
coaching program for trainersand coaches, and one of the big
things that I'm trying to getthrough and successfully getting
through is the mindset oftraining is a luxury in the mind
of leadership and when you're atrainer, that's hard to swallow
.
I am a trainer, I've beentraining for 20 years.
(24:40):
That's hard to swallow.
I love learning too.
Mandee, I absolutely will signup to anything that I can.
I'm certified in a hundredthings.
I do certifications, I docoachings with other trainers.
I love learning and I just lovethe experience of it.
(25:28):
No-transcript development.
We need to think like thatbecause we need to be showing
the return on investment ofputting money into our people,
paying for those $250 webinars,bringing in that speaker,
bringing in that knowledge base,etc.
(25:48):
So I love that you brought thatup because I mean it is so
consistent with the things thatI'm trying to convey.
It's really refreshing to hearsomebody go, yep, hey, you know,
that's the first thing to go,and I am literally seeing that
happening.
Actually, this is kind of ascary trend.
I'm seeing that happening nowin a lot of organizations, of
(26:08):
them saying our budget's beencut for the end of the year.
We've put a pause on all of ourtraining programs until-.
Mandee Bowsmith (26:14):
People are getting scared again yeah.
Yep, exactly One of the thingsso in government and I apologize
, I don't really know how itworks in government and and you
know I apologize, I don't reallyknow how it works in private
sector, but I'm sure it's verysimilar in government.
When you, let, let's say, Iasked for a new position as the
HR director, um, I would have tojustify the reason that I want
(26:37):
that position.
Right, so they're going to doABC and D, blah, blah, blah.
And then then there are thatposition right, so they're going
to do A, b, c and D, blah, blah, blah.
And then there are costsassociated, right?
So there's the base salary thatthe individual would earn.
And then there are fringe costs, right, like group health
insurance and workers'compensation insurance and FICA
and all that stuff that'sfactored in.
(26:58):
My argument is okay, stopbudgeting for training as a
separate line item.
Put it in your person cost.
That is what it costs for thathuman Salary.
Professional development fringeit's already there, it can't be
cut.
(27:18):
And so each individual has Xamount of money per fiscal year
to engage in professionaldevelopment.
Now there are going to bepeople who are like, nope, I
come to work, I do my job, I gohome, I got nothing.
Fine, that's fine If you do itthat way.
If that's the way you budget,so it's rolled into the person
(27:42):
cost, then it's not somethingthat can be cut and that's
something that I've beenadvocating for a number of years
now in terms of how, in my pastprofessional positions, look
roll it into the person numberright, because what we're asking
(28:03):
for is a drop in its budgetdust.
Right In comparison to a statebudget or a city budget or even
you know what about-.
Jay Johnson (28:14):
We're talking.
Millions of dollars, millionsof dollars.
Mandee Bowsmith (28:16):
We're talking about specks of dust for
professional development.
Talking about specks of dustfor professional development and
and there there still is thiswe perpetuate it.
I think we perpetuate the mythof what leadership looks like,
because that's what it lookslike on the national scale.
That's what we see in the news,right?
(28:38):
We see usually older men,they're usually Caucasian,
they're usually in suits, right?
Telling us what we should think, how we should feel.
You know those kinds of things,and they're assuming what we
equate with a leadership role,and I'm and part of my message
(29:00):
is part of the reason that wedress up those folks is because
they're not leaders.
They look good, but they're notleaders, right.
And so a leader doesn't have tolook like that.
They don't have to have an MBA,they don't even have to have a
bachelor's degree, in fact,right, have a bachelor's degree
(29:26):
in fact, right.
Do you care?
Do you care about what you'redoing?
Do you care about your team?
Do you care about the endresult and that that end result
can be replicated so that youcan do the business that you
have to do In government?
Our business is helping ourconstituency, right?
Whatever that looks like, thebest person for a leadership
role is usually not the personthey put into that role, because
(29:50):
in government we have civilservice, we have certain
merit-based things.
The guy who's been a plumberfor 30 years.
He's been an amazing plumber,it's great.
But just because he's the lastguy standing doesn't mean he
should be in charge of yourpublic works department now
right and yeah, you're so spoton, and I think it's so
(30:10):
important.
Jay Johnson (30:11):
You know when somebody when.
The way that we perceiveleadership, I think, is really
interesting.
Now, I grew up on the lowermiddle class rung.
On the lower middle class rung,it wasn't quite poverty, but
definitely a family of fivesiblings.
My dad was a tool and dye maker.
Sometimes the industry wasgreat, sometimes not so great.
(30:32):
My mom worked in a lunchroom toadd value.
I'm first generation college andI had no intention of going to
college, and it's reallyinteresting, though, that even
through my development, I foundmyself being the president of
the debate team, the captain ofmy hockey team, and so on and so
forth, and there was points intimes where everybody on my
(30:54):
hockey team was drivingsomething like a Lexus or a BMW.
And there's my 1989 ChevroletNova with the doors falling off
and it's just like, but theystill looked at me as their
leader, and I think that it'swhat you're speaking to is
behavior.
It's because of showing up in aparticular way, putting the
(31:16):
needs of the team ahead of myown, making sure that you see
those different pieces.
So there are people out therethat exhibit those qualities,
and then they look at themselvesand go, but I'm not a leader,
I'm not a leader.
And they do literally everythingthat a leader should be doing.
I know we're nearing the end ofour time here for our episode,
(31:36):
but I'd love for you to dig inon that a little bit.
How do you get them to seethemselves as a leader?
And then how would they benefitfrom, you know, maybe taking
some of these types of courses,or or developing that skills or
those behaviors?
Mandee Bowsmith (31:52):
So the first thing I would say is, if you
have somebody who is who you'reseeing, has leadership qualities
and and they seem to shy awayfrom them, give them a little
more leadership responsibility.
See what they do with it, right, because some people do want to
lead, they just don't know howto get into it.
Jay Johnson (32:14):
Or don't have the confidence, or they don't have
the confidence, they don't evenstep in.
Mandee Bowsmith (32:16):
Yeah, sure, right.
So I had somebody that I'mthinking of right now that I
just I gave her a little moreresponsibility, pushed her just,
gently, nudged her in thatdirection and she just blew it
out of the park because it wasinstinctual, right.
And I think that that'ssomething to acknowledge too.
You're, you're being thepresident of the club or the,
(32:40):
you know, the captain of thehockey team and things like that
.
The president of the club orthe captain of the hockey team
and things like that.
Some people have naturalcharisma and people are drawn to
them and they're able to leadbecause there's a natural
ability.
Not everybody has that naturalability and so if you have
somebody that you see is takingon leadership roles like, maybe
(33:01):
they're the one in meetings thatwhen you're having a group
meeting and you're trying to geta team update, they're the one
in meetings that you know whenyou're having a group meeting
and you're trying to get a teamupdate, they're the one that
always talks right, you knowlike or, or the one that's
always prompting, the one thatalways talks.
You know, you can see, startthrowing things at them, start
talking to them about.
Where do they see themselves inthe organization in five years?
(33:24):
What do they see themselvesdoing?
Have they ever thought about aleadership role?
And if not, why?
Is it because there's a fear?
Is it because you feel like youmay be rejected?
Because that's always a bigfear for us as humans.
The other thing is then I wouldstart to work with them and
filter some of the leadershipthings.
(33:45):
You know, when you're in aleadership role, you tend to get
a lot of newsletters and a lotof articles sent to you by
companies who want your businessand stuff.
I would I filter those to thatperson.
Hey, take a look at this let'stalk about, let's have a cup of
coffee and talk about what thisLove, that, what you think about
this.
The other thing that I want tosay, this sort of goes back to
(34:06):
the idea of rolling professionaldevelopment costs into the
person cost In HR.
In America, in the UnitedStates, we have certain
mandatory courses that we, youknow by federal law.
A new employee has to take drugalcohol awareness right.
They have to take sexualharassment prevention right and
(34:30):
awareness courses.
They usually have to take somekind of onboarding policy
procedure.
Whatever, make a leadershipcourse part of the mandatory
onboarding requirements, becausethen what you're doing is
you're setting that employee upfor success because they're
understanding the leadershipphilosophy of the organization
(34:50):
number one.
They understand the words youuse to articulate that
philosophy and they can makedecisions Wow.
Jay Johnson (35:02):
Huge.
Mandee Bowsmith (35:02):
I might be able to be a leader.
I would like to pursue this andgive them the tools to be able
to approach their supervisorsand managers to say, hey, I
think I want to take moreleadership courses because I
think this is something I can doand I can translate this into
my everyday work with my teamand this can be a better place
my everyday work with my teamand this can be a better place.
(35:26):
So, to address the questionbefore, just sort of to wrap
that up, engage in dialogue,right?
One of the things that I usedto do was I had 15 minute every
week with my immediate circle.
15 minutes a week.
We don't have to talk aboutwork.
We can talk about your kid'ssoccer game, I don't care, but
we're connecting one-on-one yes.
Yes, and we're relating to eachother and and I, you know, a lot
(35:50):
of HR professionals will tellyou not to give too much
personal.
In fact, I just read an articlefrom business insider that that
an HR professional said don'tshare too much personal
information with your coworkersor with your teams.
You know, yes, yes, I get that.
But you know what People wantto know, like they want to know
(36:11):
that I have three sons.
They want to know that my kidsplay soccer and lacrosse.
And they want to ask me hey,how was the lacrosse game this
weekend?
Right?
And they want me to ask themhey, how was, how was your your
son'sse game this weekend?
Right?
And they want me to ask themhey, how is?
How is your your son's baseballgame this weekend?
How is your daughter's baseballgame this weekend?
They want people want connection.
(36:31):
They want connection especiallyin a post-COVID environment.
Jay Johnson (36:36):
And here's what I have seen.
If I take a group of 100employees, of course you're
going to have a couple that arelike I don't need to know
anything about anybody at workand blah, blah, blah, blah, blah
.
I, when I see that, I literallywill look at that person and
just think to myself what is itthat they are uncomfortable with
being vulnerable about?
Because that's the personinside of that organization that
(37:00):
is going to struggle, that isgoing to be sometimes the center
of conflict, when you havevulnerability or shared
vulnerabilities with each otherand I'm not saying go out and
tell all of the dirty details ofyour life, but I mean being
authentic and being a human andconnecting at that human level
they need to know.
Exactly.
Mandee Bowsmith (37:20):
Reasonable compassion, exactly Reasonable
compassion, and really it's thatauthenticity and that, oh,
Mandee knows who I am.
Mandee cares about me.
Jay Johnson (37:35):
Mandee not looking at me like a number, that is
somebody that can be cut thefirst time that budget comes
along.
Yes, absolutely.
Mandee Bowsmith (37:43):
Exactly, and it's uncomfortable For a lot of
people.
It's uncomfortable becausethere's a certain mindset that
typically lends to leadership,at least historically.
And yeah, I mean, it'scertainly in some cutthroat
businesses, absolutely.
But the truth is we are humans,we are not robots, and even
(38:04):
with AI, we're still gonna to behumans doing the stuff.
Jay Johnson (38:07):
Right, that's right .
Mandee Bowsmith (38:09):
You have got to bring humanity and you have got
to let people know that theymatter within an organization,
that they matter to you, becausethat is the number one thing.
If somebody knows they matter,if somebody knows you care as a
leader, they're I said it beforethey're gonna follow you
anywhere.
(38:29):
They're gonna do 110% for youevery single day.
Jay Johnson (38:35):
Powerful insight.
Mandee, how would our audience,if they want to get in touch
with you, if they want to learnabout these programs, how should
they reach out to you?
Mandee Bowsmith (38:45):
I would love to talk to anybody who wants to
talk about this.
I would certainly love to beable to.
I also do in-person training.
I'm working on thisasynchronous course.
I do coaching.
I do consulting.
You can find me atbluenoteresourcescom.
I'm on Twitter under Blue NoteResources and I'm also on
Facebook under Blue NoteResources.
Jay Johnson (39:07):
Amazing Mandee, Thank you so much for joining us
here today.
It has been an absolutepleasure.
I know this is a little bitlonger episode, but I thought it
was so powerful that we justneeded to dig in on some of
those issues.
So thank you for your time andenergy for joining me today.
Mandee Bowsmith (39:22):
Thank you for having me.
I enjoyed it very much.
Jay Johnson (39:25):
My absolute pleasure.
So, and thank you, audience,for listening to this episode of
the Talent Forge, where we areshaping the future of talent
development.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof talent development.
I am joined today by specialguest Mandee Bowsmith.
Welcome to the show, Mandee.
Mandee Bowsmith (00:12):
Thank you very much.
I'm excited to be here to talktoday about talent and HR stuff
and leadership stuff.
Jay Johnson (00:20):
Love it, so glad that you were able to join us.
Can you start by maybe tellingour audience a little bit about
yourself and how you got intothis talent development space?
Mandee Bowsmith (00:29):
Sure, I am a I don't know if you want to call
it a veteran, but I have been inhuman resources for over 24
years in government, so Istarted my career in municipal
government at the city of LasVegas in Nevada.
Jay Johnson (00:45):
That had to be fun.
Mandee Bowsmith (00:47):
It was interesting.
Well, I was born and raised inVegas, so you know.
But city of Las Vegas iscertainly an interesting
municipality.
There's a lot going on withinthe city jurisdiction and I
started my career as a temporaryfile clerk in the workers'
compensation section in HR andworked my way up.
I have been an HR director in acity setting and I've also been
(01:14):
the head of human resources ina state setting, and recently I
made a transition and opened myown coaching and consulting firm
where I'm focused on governmentleaders, but leadership in
general, trying to bringleadership to the masses, if you
will.
Jay Johnson (01:31):
I love that.
No, that's incredible, bringingleadership to the masses.
So I want to dig in onsomething that you said there,
because one of the things youknow when people when general
people think of HR, they thinkof the hey, I need you to come
down to my office right, likethey think of who's processing
my payroll.
And one of the things that I'velearned over the course of my
(01:52):
career is that sometimes theactual aspects of HR and the
aspects of talent developmentare very, very separated, and
sometimes talent is under HR,sometimes it's completely
separate.
You are navigating a spacewhere you've been in the HR or
the director of HR positions andalso are doing talent
(02:13):
development.
Can you maybe speak to thatjust a little bit?
What's that transition looklike?
Or was it always sort of anatural thing for you to kind of
have a foot in both of thoseworlds?
What does that look like forMandee?
Mandee Bowsmith (02:26):
Actually, you know, the funny thing is is
early in my career.
So at city of Las Vegas, the,the training and development
group is under human resources.
So, to me, it's natural for forthe to be the place that it
lives, and it's weird when it'sexternal, from from human
resources, but it seems to methat human resources, as a
(02:47):
discipline and as a department,is an organization's only one
true internal servicesdepartment.
Right, this is the departmentthat is set up and is supposed
to be the one that employees canlean on for help to get
questions answered to.
You know, hey, I don't knowabout my health insurance, what
about this?
Or, hey, can I take this class?
(03:08):
Or whatever, and HR is supposedto be the people who help
employees, you know, get rid ofthose little worries so they can
go off and do the job that theywere hired to do.
A lot of times, though and overthe course of my career, it's
been, it's been true HR has abad rap, because the perception
is that we are the bad guys.
Jay Johnson (03:29):
Because a lot of times right.
Mandee Bowsmith (03:32):
We're the bad cop right, and part of that I
will offer, part of that is aleadership problem, because a
lot of what we see are peoplewho are in positions of
leadership who are notcomfortable with conflict,
they're not comfortable withconflict resolution and they
don't have those skills and sothey would rather push it off
(03:53):
onto an HR person to, you know,do the dirty work per se.
Jay Johnson (03:57):
Yeah.
Mandee Bowsmith (03:58):
Rather than trying to handle the situation
themselves and you know there'sa lot of nuance, of course to
human resources, nothing we dois black and white.
It is 7 million shades of gray.
You can have the same set offacts and have a completely
different situation in front ofyou, and the variable there is
(04:18):
the human right, absolutely.
One of the things in Blue NoteResources, which is the firm
that I opened, one of my goals,along with leadership and
helping leaders become morehuman leaders, is putting the
humanity back in human resources, showing people that human
resources is not the place wheresomebody goes when they're in
(04:41):
trouble.
It's not the principal's office, right.
It's a place where you can goand get questions answered.
It's also a place where you canbe listened to.
I've learned that nine timesout of 10, you have a problem
employee and they're just notperforming.
Something is going on.
Usually, they just want to belistened to.
(05:03):
Something is happening right,either something with a coworker
, something with, say, software.
They're using something with aproject they're working on.
They just want to be listenedto and if you give them 20
minutes of your time, theytypically, it course, corrects
itself right.
So putting the humanity back inHR and back in leadership is how
(05:29):
I believe we can help.
Number one, help our employeesto do the best that they can do
every day for whateverorganization we're talking about
.
But also, number two, to reallybring a sense of belonging and
understanding to employees in anorganization.
Because you spend most of yourtime at work, why not make it a
(05:53):
place where people understandhow they fit, where people
understand what they'recontributing to the bottom line
and where they're happy to spendmost of their day.
Where they're happy to spendmost of their day.
Jay Johnson (06:04):
Well, and I love what you're bringing up there,
right, because connection is oneof the things that we all need
to find at work and we don'talways think about it that way.
But if we don't feel connected,valued, seen, we disengage, we
pull back, eventually we becomedisgruntled and eventually we
say, hey, I'm not part of thistribe anymore and we leave.
And it's a huge issue right now, you know, with quiet, quitting
(06:25):
, disengagement and turnover.
I mean, these are things thatbig companies, every single
company that I'm working withthis is what keeps their
leadership up at night.
And I want to go back to whatyou said about this being a
challenge with leadership,because I think that's a really
important piece to kind of go onhere.
How have you and let's takethis one more step down the road
(06:47):
?
You're right and I know thisand you know this and anybody,
any of our listeners in the HRworld know this it is a
difficult transition to getemployees to say, no, I'm
actually here to help you.
I truly believe that people thatare coming into HR, they want
to help people.
They don't want to be the stickper se, they don't want to be
(07:08):
the enforcer, the gatekeeper oranything else, but that's often,
you're right, they getpigeonholed into that position.
But most of the people that I'veever interacted with in HR are
truly committed, caring peoplethat want to see both the team,
the people individually and theorganization thrive and survive
(07:29):
and to be a place that everybodywants to work at.
I don't think anybody's ever,you know, joined HR, twisting
their mustache, sitting in theback, going, how can I really
screw over my employees today?
So, despite all of that becausethere is this sort of balance
of having to sometimes play thatrole of the bad cop and in
(07:50):
other cases going, hey, come tothis training or come to this
development opportunity andpeople going, okay, you just,
you just were the person thathad to threaten me four minutes
ago and now you want me to cometo the party now, right, how did
you balance that?
How did you sort of create theconditions of trust and
(08:10):
connection amongst the people tosay, okay, yeah, it's almost
like you know the parent, thatthey can discipline you, but
they're also going to show youthat love and kindness and care.
How did you navigate that?
Because I think that's going tobe something really interesting
to any of our HR folkslistening.
Mandee Bowsmith (08:27):
You know for myself and people have told me
that I am not normal Me too, myentire life I have a very simple
philosophy in terms of humanresources and in terms of how I
work, and it's difficult ingovernment, right, but my
(08:48):
philosophy is do what's right,not what's easy, Because if it's
easy, I can guarantee you ingovernment it ain't right, right
.
The way that government is setup, everything is a slog,
everything is hard, and so ifyou have found something to do,
that's easy, it's wrong.
Jay Johnson (09:08):
Mandee in a past life.
It really feels like a pastlife at this point in time.
I was an elected official in mylocal municipality of 50,000
people and I 1,000% agree withyou.
If it's easy, you misssomething.
Mandee Bowsmith (09:24):
Something is wrong.
Jay Johnson (09:26):
You miss something.
So.
I love that Keep going.
Mandee Bowsmith (09:29):
Yeah, no people , people laugh at me, but it's
true, right, it do what's right,not what's easy.
But not only that.
I believe wholly inauthenticity and it did.
And I'll tell you, jay, it tookme a while to come to who my
authentic self was as an HRprofessional, but I'm a straight
(09:49):
shooter.
When people work with me, theyknow that what they're going to
get from me is the truth.
They're going to get the truth,they're going to get exactly
what's going on, and, butthey're going to get it in a way
that's respectful.
And but they're going to get itin a way that's respectful and
that is and it wasn't alwayskind either right, like cause.
Sometimes you do have to besort of hard-nosed about what's
(10:13):
happening, but I, I was the.
I was the kind of leader withinthe organization where people
knew exactly what they weregoing to get from me.
So if they came to me to ask mea question or if they wanted to
know, you know, hey, why am Igetting this poor performance
report?
They knew I was going to givethem the straight dope every
time, and what that bought mewas I'm going to.
Jay Johnson (10:35):
I'm going to, I'm going to get something that you
said there real quick, becauseyou mentioned that it might not
be kind, but I think that iskind and I'm going to lean
straight into Brene Brown'swords on this Clear is kind,
unclear is unkind.
And while it may be direct orwhile it may be hard to hear the
(10:58):
fact that you're not sugar, Ithink that is a kindness and I
think that speaks a lot to yourcharacter, Mandee, because when
we are in that situation whereit is easier for us to say, gosh
, I could sugarcoat this, Icould make this a little lighter
.
Or I'm going to have to tellyou hey, you know, jay, you've
got a booger on your nose.
You're probably going to wantto fix that.
(11:18):
That may not feel kind to tellme, but trust me in my heart of
hearts, I need to know this.
Mandee Bowsmith (11:24):
You know, and so please continue on that.
Jay Johnson (11:27):
But I just I really think that that's important,
and I think it's important forour audience.
Being clear is an act ofkindness, and you can do that in
an authentic way, in a kind way.
Right, we don't have to come inthere with a bat of truth,
right and.
Mandee Bowsmith (11:43):
I think that's one of the things in terms of
leadership that I there.
There are all these myths,right Right there.
There's all this myth ofsurrounding what a leader is,
who a leader is, what kind ofperson can be a leader, and you
know, with all due respect tothe establishment, I think it's
bull, Because I think thatanybody can be a leader.
(12:05):
I think that anybody can learnthe concepts of being a leader.
In my own leadership role, Itried my best to number one,
connect with everybody who was asubordinate to me, understand
who they were, how they fit inthe puzzle of the organization
and what they did, because thenI understood what was going on
(12:30):
and if there were problems,let's say, in payroll, I was
over payroll.
If there were problems inpayroll, I could have a better
understanding of what thoseproblems were and then be able
to relay them to, let's say, acustomer that was having a hard
time.
I mean, one of the things thatI did and this sounds so sort of
silly and I had peers of minetell me that it was a poor
(12:55):
choice to do this but I spent aweek as the front desk person in
payroll answering the phone,doing the mail, trying to
distribute the stuff, and thereason was twofold.
Number one because they wereshort-staffed and they just
needed to get payroll out and Iwas trying to help lighten the
load in any way I could right.
(13:16):
The second part was then Iunderstood.
I understood the volume ofphone calls they get.
I understood the volume ofsnail mail they get.
I understood the volume ofsnail mail they get.
I understood the volume ofemail, and then I could fight
for them with my bosses about weneed more people, we need more
(13:36):
resources, we need this, we needthat right.
If you're a leader who refusesto get in the trenches with your
people and understand what yourteams are really doing, you're
not a leader, you're justsomebody collecting a paycheck
in a position of faux power.
And I think that that's one ofthe things that is really
important for me to show in thework that I'm doing now in some
(14:01):
classes that I'm creating isleadership is not where you went
to college.
Leadership is not the clothesyou wear.
Leadership is not power, it'snot authority, it is
communication, it is clarity andit is reasonable compassion for
(14:21):
the people who work for you.
And if you show your teamclarity, if you are clear in
your vision, if you are clear inwhere the organization is going
and you're clear in how theyfit and you can articulate that
and you're communicating withthem as much as possible and
giving them as much informationas they're going to need to do
their jobs and do it well and tofeel like they're part of
(14:43):
what's going on.
And if you are reasonablycompassionate about when things
come up because we all have kids, we all have parents, we all
have things that come up in lifepeople will follow you anywhere
you lead.
Jay Johnson (14:57):
There's so much to unpack there, Mandee, and
incredibly stated.
First, I want to acknowledgethe fact that you went to the
front lines, because this issomething.
Have you ever heard of theconcept of a Gemba walk,
G-E-M-B-A?
It's a Japanese philosophy.
This is one of the things thatI actually ask a lot of leaders
(15:23):
to do, especially in themanufacturing side of things,
and what it is is.
It's literally getting out ontothe floor and walking the floor
and being with each of theemployees, spending time at
their station, not overseeingthem, not looking over their
shoulder, but trying tounderstand what is your job,
look like, what are thechallenges that you're facing,
and getting out there andactually seeing what is
happening in those differentpositions.
(15:44):
The fact that you did that andsat in that position for a week
what kind of empathy that musthave generated to say, hey, I
just walked a mile in your shoes, I get it, Let me have some
conversation.
Or I just walked a mile in yourshoes and maybe there's some
things that we could improve onthis side that would help you be
more effective.
But now you've got that kind ofposition of credibility by
(16:07):
leading by example.
So we're going to go down thisleadership pathway.
But I really appreciate that.
You said that when I was working, I used to be a member I guess
I'm an alumni member, I've agedout but the Junior Chamber
International, which servicesyoung leaders between the ages
of 18 and 40, I was the localchapter president and we were
(16:29):
launching a community garden andI remember the supervisor had
come out at that time and waslike Jay, like I thought you
were leading this project andI'm sitting there and I'm
fingers in the dirt and I'mdigging everything up and
everything else.
And I was like I am.
And they were like, well, whyaren't you kind of like
overseeing this?
I was like, well, people knowwhat to do, They've been
(16:50):
decentralized, they have theirdecision-making capacity.
So I'm needed here and I'mgoing to get my hands dirty.
And it was funny because thesupervisor kind of like sat down
and got down on their knees andstarted doing the same thing
that I was doing.
But I always believed that asthe leader, I was going to be
the last one to set down therake and I was going to be the
(17:11):
first one to pick up the back.
You know, if I could do thatthen I could lead with a place
of empathy and authenticity,that I wasn't going to ask
somebody to do something that Iwasn't willing to do myself.
So I love that you got in there.
Let's talk about leadership.
Let's get into this, becauseyou are launching a program for
every person.
(17:32):
You know anybody out there.
You had mentioned earlier sortof leadership for the masses.
I really love that.
You should make that yourslogan.
Let's talk about's talk aboutthat.
What, why, what inspired you tothink about creating programs
for and I love the conceptbecause I agree everybody is a
leader of their own lives, is aleader of their own station, is
(17:53):
a leader of their own family,and that doesn't matter whether
you, what gender, what title,what role you can be a leader if
you take ownership.
So what inspired you to go downthis pathway, to really kind of
focus on it?
Because you see a lot ofleadership programs.
They're focused on executiveteams and they're focused on
this.
But what inspired this?
Mandee Bowsmith (18:16):
It really comes down to the experiences that I
had, and part of it, you know,comes down to the experiences
that I had, and part of it beinga government kid, being an HR
kid in government.
Government waxes and wanes,especially municipal government,
(18:37):
and in Nevada in particular, ithas a lot to do with property.
You know property revenues andyou know when you're in city of
Las Vegas there are a lot ofcasinos and there's taxes that
go along with the casinos.
And if the casinos are doingwell, then the city does well in
terms of revenue and taxes andthings like that.
But but in downtimes, right,you don't do so well.
What's the first thing thatevery organization cuts when
(19:01):
things start to go a littlesouth?
Training.
Jay Johnson (19:04):
Training.
And then after that marketing.
And, by the way, my companydoes training and marketing
Right.
Mandee Bowsmith (19:11):
Exactly.
And then if you get that moneyback because it's not always a
guarantee that you're going toget that money back in the next
budget cycle, but if you getthat money back then it seems to
be cherry picked about who isallowed to access those funds.
Who are we going to choose?
(19:31):
Because it's kind of like thatweird popularity contest, right?
Who are we going to choose togo take the leadership training,
going to choose to go take theleadership training?
And you know what's funny is Ihave my oldest son is a freshman
in high school this year and Iwas thinking about my high
school experience and, like youknow, how I could try to help
him have a great time in highschool, and I was also thinking
(19:52):
about this leadership thingbecause I wanted to also do
something that's aimed more athis age group.
And I thought to myself wait aminute.
I can remember the studentcouncil kids in high school.
They got leadership trainingbut nobody else did, right?
So if you wanted to be a partof this specific group, you got
(20:16):
the training, but it wasn't anormal curricular lesson that
was taught.
You know, you didn't get it inEnglish class, you didn't get it
in history class, you didn'tget it in government,
surprisingly.
And I thought, well, why isthat?
And then I thought further well, that's been the way it's been
throughout my whole professionalcareer as well.
Right, people are identifiedfor one reason or another and
(20:41):
they're put forward as leadersand so we groom them and
everybody else sort of is backhere.
But what I've also noticed isthat, through my own sort of
journey and trying to figure outwho I was and what kind of a
professional I was and what Iwanted to do, I'm the kind of
person who I will pay for my owntraining because I love
(21:02):
learning, I love academia, Ilove learning.
Knowledge is like my thing.
But there are a lot of people,especially government workers,
believe it or not, that can'tafford $250 for a webinar, they
can't afford $300 for somecourse and they're never going
to have a Harvard MBA.
But that does not mean thatthey are not good leadership
(21:25):
material and perhaps thatleadership, perhaps that's shown
in their daily work with theirpeers, right.
Perhaps that's shown onprojects.
Perhaps that's shown even likein, like your fun committee or
your birthday committee or your,you know, whatever your
organization has.
People are leaders in differentways and it manifests itself in
(21:49):
different ways.
So if we give people the tools,if they're accessible, then
pardon me then they can lead.
My idea is to create coursesonline courses for people that
are both accessible, becausethey're online, and affordable,
because that affordabilityfactor is really important, you
(22:13):
know a lot of families don'thave $350 to throw around for a
leadership course.
So I apologize, my goodness,that's okay.
So that's what I'm trying to dois build accessible, affordable
leadership for everybody, forthe masses.
Anybody can take the course.
There are no prerequisites, andwhat I'm looking for are people
(22:35):
who want to learn and peoplewho maybe they have a desire to
lead, or maybe they take mycourse and they're like I'm not
doing that.
That's perfectly good too.
Jay Johnson (22:47):
Right.
Mandee Bowsmith (22:48):
But at least you know.
Jay Johnson (22:49):
I, I, I love that and here's here's part of the
reason why is one of my absolutefavorite things in the world
and and this is having.
So I served as an internationalvice president for JCI,
actually, and I was assigned toEurope and I remember being in.
I spent 140 days travelingacross the Nordic countries and
(23:13):
the Baltic countries givingtalks and doing leadership
training, et cetera.
And the number of times that Iheard somebody come to me and
say I'm not a leader, and I'mjust like, really, let's have a
conversation, let's unpack that.
What makes a leader then?
What does it look like and howdoes that function?
(23:33):
And what designates you notbeing a leader and not
comfortable with leadership.
And literally, by the time thatwe finished some of these
conversations and I pointed out,hey, you did this, you made
these decisions, you did X, yand Z, you're doing this.
Isn't that leadership?
Isn't that the kind ofleadership that you would like?
And you could see this littlelight go off, one of the
(23:56):
questions that I'm gonna comeback to.
I'm gonna mention one otherthing, but I'm gonna come back
to how will you maybe supportpeople that have that mentality
of, well, I'm not a leader,these courses aren't going to be
for me.
So that's the question I'mgoing to stick with.
But I do want to go back tosomething else that you said and
I think it's so important.
Right now I am running the elitetraining Academy, which is a
(24:18):
coaching program for trainersand coaches, and one of the big
things that I'm trying to getthrough and successfully getting
through is the mindset oftraining is a luxury in the mind
of leadership and when you're atrainer, that's hard to swallow
.
I am a trainer, I've beentraining for 20 years.
(24:40):
That's hard to swallow.
I love learning too.
Mandee, I absolutely will signup to anything that I can.
I'm certified in a hundredthings.
I do certifications, I docoachings with other trainers.
I love learning and I just lovethe experience of it.
(25:28):
No-transcript development.
We need to think like thatbecause we need to be showing
the return on investment ofputting money into our people,
paying for those $250 webinars,bringing in that speaker,
bringing in that knowledge base,etc.
(25:48):
So I love that you brought thatup because I mean it is so
consistent with the things thatI'm trying to convey.
It's really refreshing to hearsomebody go, yep, hey, you know,
that's the first thing to go,and I am literally seeing that
happening.
Actually, this is kind of ascary trend.
I'm seeing that happening nowin a lot of organizations, of
(26:08):
them saying our budget's beencut for the end of the year.
We've put a pause on all of ourtraining programs until-.
Mandee Bowsmith (26:14):
People are getting scared again yeah.
Yep, exactly One of the thingsso in government and I apologize
, I don't really know how itworks in government and and you
know I apologize, I don't reallyknow how it works in private
sector, but I'm sure it's verysimilar in government.
When you, let, let's say, Iasked for a new position as the
HR director, um, I would have tojustify the reason that I want
(26:37):
that position.
Right, so they're going to doABC and D, blah, blah, blah.
And then then there are thatposition right, so they're going
to do A, b, c and D, blah, blah, blah.
And then there are costsassociated, right?
So there's the base salary thatthe individual would earn.
And then there are fringe costs, right, like group health
insurance and workers'compensation insurance and FICA
and all that stuff that'sfactored in.
(26:58):
My argument is okay, stopbudgeting for training as a
separate line item.
Put it in your person cost.
That is what it costs for thathuman Salary.
Professional development fringeit's already there, it can't be
cut.
(27:18):
And so each individual has Xamount of money per fiscal year
to engage in professionaldevelopment.
Now there are going to bepeople who are like, nope, I
come to work, I do my job, I gohome, I got nothing.
Fine, that's fine If you do itthat way.
If that's the way you budget,so it's rolled into the person
(27:42):
cost, then it's not somethingthat can be cut and that's
something that I've beenadvocating for a number of years
now in terms of how, in my pastprofessional positions, look
roll it into the person numberright, because what we're asking
(28:03):
for is a drop in its budgetdust.
Right In comparison to a statebudget or a city budget or even
you know what about-.
Jay Johnson (28:14):
We're talking.
Millions of dollars, millionsof dollars.
Mandee Bowsmith (28:16):
We're talking about specks of dust for
professional development.
Talking about specks of dustfor professional development and
and there there still is thiswe perpetuate it.
I think we perpetuate the mythof what leadership looks like,
because that's what it lookslike on the national scale.
That's what we see in the news,right?
(28:38):
We see usually older men,they're usually Caucasian,
they're usually in suits, right?
Telling us what we should think, how we should feel.
You know those kinds of things,and they're assuming what we
equate with a leadership role,and I'm and part of my message
(29:00):
is part of the reason that wedress up those folks is because
they're not leaders.
They look good, but they're notleaders, right.
And so a leader doesn't have tolook like that.
They don't have to have an MBA,they don't even have to have a
bachelor's degree, in fact,right, have a bachelor's degree
(29:26):
in fact, right.
Do you care?
Do you care about what you'redoing?
Do you care about your team?
Do you care about the endresult and that that end result
can be replicated so that youcan do the business that you
have to do In government?
Our business is helping ourconstituency, right?
Whatever that looks like, thebest person for a leadership
role is usually not the personthey put into that role, because
(29:50):
in government we have civilservice, we have certain
merit-based things.
The guy who's been a plumberfor 30 years.
He's been an amazing plumber,it's great.
But just because he's the lastguy standing doesn't mean he
should be in charge of yourpublic works department now
right and yeah, you're so spoton, and I think it's so
(30:10):
important.
Jay Johnson (30:11):
You know when somebody when.
The way that we perceiveleadership, I think, is really
interesting.
Now, I grew up on the lowermiddle class rung.
On the lower middle class rung,it wasn't quite poverty, but
definitely a family of fivesiblings.
My dad was a tool and dye maker.
Sometimes the industry wasgreat, sometimes not so great.
(30:32):
My mom worked in a lunchroom toadd value.
I'm first generation college andI had no intention of going to
college, and it's reallyinteresting, though, that even
through my development, I foundmyself being the president of
the debate team, the captain ofmy hockey team, and so on and so
forth, and there was points intimes where everybody on my
(30:54):
hockey team was drivingsomething like a Lexus or a BMW.
And there's my 1989 ChevroletNova with the doors falling off
and it's just like, but theystill looked at me as their
leader, and I think that it'swhat you're speaking to is
behavior.
It's because of showing up in aparticular way, putting the
(31:16):
needs of the team ahead of myown, making sure that you see
those different pieces.
So there are people out therethat exhibit those qualities,
and then they look at themselvesand go, but I'm not a leader,
I'm not a leader.
And they do literally everythingthat a leader should be doing.
I know we're nearing the end ofour time here for our episode,
(31:36):
but I'd love for you to dig inon that a little bit.
How do you get them to seethemselves as a leader?
And then how would they benefitfrom, you know, maybe taking
some of these types of courses,or or developing that skills or
those behaviors?
Mandee Bowsmith (31:52):
So the first thing I would say is, if you
have somebody who is who you'reseeing, has leadership qualities
and and they seem to shy awayfrom them, give them a little
more leadership responsibility.
See what they do with it, right, because some people do want to
lead, they just don't know howto get into it.
Jay Johnson (32:14):
Or don't have the confidence, or they don't have
the confidence, they don't evenstep in.
Mandee Bowsmith (32:16):
Yeah, sure, right.
So I had somebody that I'mthinking of right now that I
just I gave her a little moreresponsibility, pushed her just,
gently, nudged her in thatdirection and she just blew it
out of the park because it wasinstinctual, right.
And I think that that'ssomething to acknowledge too.
You're, you're being thepresident of the club or the,
(32:40):
you know, the captain of thehockey team and things like that
.
The president of the club orthe captain of the hockey team
and things like that.
Some people have naturalcharisma and people are drawn to
them and they're able to leadbecause there's a natural
ability.
Not everybody has that naturalability and so if you have
somebody that you see is takingon leadership roles like, maybe
(33:01):
they're the one in meetings thatwhen you're having a group
meeting and you're trying to geta team update, they're the one
in meetings that you know whenyou're having a group meeting
and you're trying to get a teamupdate, they're the one that
always talks right, you knowlike or, or the one that's
always prompting, the one thatalways talks.
You know, you can see, startthrowing things at them, start
talking to them about.
Where do they see themselves inthe organization in five years?
(33:24):
What do they see themselvesdoing?
Have they ever thought about aleadership role?
And if not, why?
Is it because there's a fear?
Is it because you feel like youmay be rejected?
Because that's always a bigfear for us as humans.
The other thing is then I wouldstart to work with them and
filter some of the leadershipthings.
(33:45):
You know, when you're in aleadership role, you tend to get
a lot of newsletters and a lotof articles sent to you by
companies who want your businessand stuff.
I would I filter those to thatperson.
Hey, take a look at this let'stalk about, let's have a cup of
coffee and talk about what thisLove, that, what you think about
this.
The other thing that I want tosay, this sort of goes back to
(34:06):
the idea of rolling professionaldevelopment costs into the
person cost In HR.
In America, in the UnitedStates, we have certain
mandatory courses that we, youknow by federal law.
A new employee has to take drugalcohol awareness right.
They have to take sexualharassment prevention right and
(34:30):
awareness courses.
They usually have to take somekind of onboarding policy
procedure.
Whatever, make a leadershipcourse part of the mandatory
onboarding requirements, becausethen what you're doing is
you're setting that employee upfor success because they're
understanding the leadershipphilosophy of the organization
(34:50):
number one.
They understand the words youuse to articulate that
philosophy and they can makedecisions Wow.
Jay Johnson (35:02):
Huge.
Mandee Bowsmith (35:02):
I might be able to be a leader.
I would like to pursue this andgive them the tools to be able
to approach their supervisorsand managers to say, hey, I
think I want to take moreleadership courses because I
think this is something I can doand I can translate this into
my everyday work with my teamand this can be a better place
my everyday work with my teamand this can be a better place.
(35:26):
So, to address the questionbefore, just sort of to wrap
that up, engage in dialogue,right?
One of the things that I usedto do was I had 15 minute every
week with my immediate circle.
15 minutes a week.
We don't have to talk aboutwork.
We can talk about your kid'ssoccer game, I don't care, but
we're connecting one-on-one yes.
Yes, and we're relating to eachother and and I, you know, a lot
(35:50):
of HR professionals will tellyou not to give too much
personal.
In fact, I just read an articlefrom business insider that that
an HR professional said don'tshare too much personal
information with your coworkersor with your teams.
You know, yes, yes, I get that.
But you know what People wantto know, like they want to know
(36:11):
that I have three sons.
They want to know that my kidsplay soccer and lacrosse.
And they want to ask me hey,how was the lacrosse game this
weekend?
Right?
And they want me to ask themhey, how was, how was your your
son'sse game this weekend?
Right?
And they want me to ask themhey, how is?
How is your your son's baseballgame this weekend?
How is your daughter's baseballgame this weekend?
They want people want connection.
(36:31):
They want connection especiallyin a post-COVID environment.
Jay Johnson (36:36):
And here's what I have seen.
If I take a group of 100employees, of course you're
going to have a couple that arelike I don't need to know
anything about anybody at workand blah, blah, blah, blah, blah
.
I, when I see that, I literallywill look at that person and
just think to myself what is itthat they are uncomfortable with
being vulnerable about?
Because that's the personinside of that organization that
(37:00):
is going to struggle, that isgoing to be sometimes the center
of conflict, when you havevulnerability or shared
vulnerabilities with each otherand I'm not saying go out and
tell all of the dirty details ofyour life, but I mean being
authentic and being a human andconnecting at that human level
they need to know.
Exactly.
Mandee Bowsmith (37:20):
Reasonable compassion, exactly Reasonable
compassion, and really it's thatauthenticity and that, oh,
Mandee knows who I am.
Mandee cares about me.
Jay Johnson (37:35):
Mandee not looking at me like a number, that is
somebody that can be cut thefirst time that budget comes
along.
Yes, absolutely.
Mandee Bowsmith (37:43):
Exactly, and it's uncomfortable For a lot of
people.
It's uncomfortable becausethere's a certain mindset that
typically lends to leadership,at least historically.
And yeah, I mean, it'scertainly in some cutthroat
businesses, absolutely.
But the truth is we are humans,we are not robots, and even
(38:04):
with AI, we're still gonna to behumans doing the stuff.
Jay Johnson (38:07):
Right, that's right .
Mandee Bowsmith (38:09):
You have got to bring humanity and you have got
to let people know that theymatter within an organization,
that they matter to you, becausethat is the number one thing.
If somebody knows they matter,if somebody knows you care as a
leader, they're I said it beforethey're gonna follow you
anywhere.
(38:29):
They're gonna do 110% for youevery single day.
Jay Johnson (38:35):
Powerful insight.
Mandee, how would our audience,if they want to get in touch
with you, if they want to learnabout these programs, how should
they reach out to you?
Mandee Bowsmith (38:45):
I would love to talk to anybody who wants to
talk about this.
I would certainly love to beable to.
I also do in-person training.
I'm working on thisasynchronous course.
I do coaching.
I do consulting.
You can find me atbluenoteresourcescom.
I'm on Twitter under Blue NoteResources and I'm also on
Facebook under Blue NoteResources.
Jay Johnson (39:07):
Amazing Mandee, Thank you so much for joining us
here today.
It has been an absolutepleasure.
I know this is a little bitlonger episode, but I thought it
was so powerful that we justneeded to dig in on some of
those issues.
So thank you for your time andenergy for joining me today.
Mandee Bowsmith (39:22):
Thank you for having me.
I enjoyed it very much.
Jay Johnson (39:25):
My absolute pleasure.
So, and thank you, audience,for listening to this episode of
the Talent Forge, where we areshaping the future of talent
development.
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