October 24, 2025 • 43 mins
Strategy dies in the “telephone game.” We sat down with leadership expert Kim Crowder to unpack how to turn top‑down plans into daily behaviors people can actually do, coach, and scale. The core idea is deceptively simple: bring voices in early, tie the why to real work, and build trust before you need it.
Kim walks us through a client story where leaders invited team input at the start, mapped the change across people, process, and communications, and defined what success looks like in the day-to-day. That clarity allowed internal leaders—not outside consultants—to teach the approach to 100+ peers and sustain the gains for three years with a 150% ROI. We dig into the 90‑day reality check that aligns the C‑suite, surfaces unspoken assumptions, and gathers frontline data so feedback fuels business outcomes instead of blame.
If you’re tired of rollouts that stall, this conversation offers a practical blueprint to make strategy teachable, measurable, and owned by leaders closest to the work. Listen, share it with your team, and tell us: what behavior will you change first? And if this helped, follow the show, leave a quick review, and pass it to a leader who needs it.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where together we are shapingworkforce behaviors.
I am really excited becausetoday my guest is Kim Crowder.
I want to say welcome to theshow, Kim.
Kim Crowder (00:11):
Hi, thanks.
Uh thanks, Jay.
Good to meet you.
Jay Johnson (00:13):
Good to meet you as well.
So I've been looking forward tothis conversation.
We were mutually introduced bya colleague and a past
talentforge guest, uh HankWethington.
And uh he had some incrediblethings to say about you.
So I'm very excited about this.
And uh, Kim, why don't we getto know you a little bit better?
Can you tell us, yeah, how didyou get into this talent
(00:35):
development space?
How'd you get into behaviorchange?
What drives you?
Kim Crowder (00:39):
Yeah, Hank's let me just first start off saying by
Hank is a really great person,and I've I've had the pleasure
of uh connecting with him.
When you asked me how I gotinto it, it's it I think my
story is interesting.
But uh my my stories start incorporate America, uh, where I
myself was an executive and aleader, and then also started to
(01:03):
I I feel like I sort of it Ifell upon this work in the way
that I swear, Kim, every wewe've had so many conversations.
Jay Johnson (01:13):
It's like I'm here by accident, and I fell in love
with it.
Yeah, no, that's amazing.
Kim Crowder (01:19):
I uh I was doing work in that position, and
people started talking about thework that we were doing,
basically.
And in that, I took that, ittook you know, conversations
into conferences, and then Istarted getting work.
I mean, that really is theshort and the long of it uh to a
degree, but also I saw theimpact of strong leadership
(01:42):
versus poor leadership, and thatreally was the biggest piece,
the impact that poor leadershiphad on myself, um, even down to
medical impact.
And then also being able towalk into an organization with a
team of um folks who had neverreally done the work that I was
expected to bring forward, andtaking them and upskilling and
(02:07):
reskilling them.
So that's why I one of thethings I'm most passionate about
is when we talk about executiveleadership, when we work with
our clients, when we're talkingabout that senior at that senior
leadership level, is what Ifind in things like strategic
planning, for instance, orchange management, is that
(02:27):
oftentimes the work itself, thethe technical pieces are in
place, right?
We know where we want to go, weknow what we want to do, but
rarely, if ever, is there aconversation about the impact
internally?
What does that mean?
Is our team ready to move thisforward?
How have we actively developedour team internally, especially
(02:51):
our leaders, to be able toflourish in this new environment
that we're trying to create?
And so that really is where Isaw that gap and decided after
my own experiences, especiallybehind the veil, right?
That C-suite is like behind theveil.
You see how decisions are made,you see how policy is moved
(03:13):
forward, understanding that andwanting to make sure that other
workplaces were making sure theyunderstood how to have wins and
how to eradicate as muchdeletion from like loss, right?
To have as little loss aspossible.
Jay Johnson (03:32):
So this is there's so much to unpack here.
I have so many questions foryou.
So uh I'm gonna go back to thegood and bad leadership in just
a minute, but I think I want tostart with as you're talking
about, and I you're so right,right?
Like the C-suite meets behindthe scenes, they bring in an
executive strategic planningconsultant, they come up with
(03:54):
the plan, and then theyimmediately try to roll the plan
out to the organization.
And I'm gonna I'm gonna admit,I've done this myself, and I'm a
much smaller organization.
Kim Crowder (04:05):
Yeah, right?
Jay Johnson (04:06):
So uh okay, so let's talk about that process,
getting the team ready, makingsure that they're prepared.
What does that look like?
How do we, how do we, if ifwe're in an organization and
we've gotten a strategic planhanded down to us, what should
we be thinking about?
Kim Crowder (04:22):
Yeah.
And when you say we, who is we?
Jay Johnson (04:25):
We as the employees, the managers, the
teams, the talent developmentcrew, the HR team, etc.
So I'm kind of thinking aboutit in terms of, you know, a
majority of our listeners areprobably, they've probably been
handed that strategic planbefore.
They've probably gottensomething that said, hey,
disseminate this out to your,you know, out to your group,
(04:46):
your team, your division, etcetera.
What should we be thinkingabout when that occurs?
Kim Crowder (04:52):
You know, it's a that's a that's a double-edged
sword, and I'll tell you why Isay it that way.
Uh, because most initiativesare basically marching orders,
right?
Um we've decided this is wherewe want to go.
Here you go.
Like, okay, now carry that out.
And I believe that in that,what let me just say this one of
(05:13):
the the most amazing clientsthat we've ever had is a
longtime client.
They're actually uh Jay inMichigan, where you are.
Um and we started working withthem about three years ago.
And what was so impactful tothat group, in my opinion, is
(05:34):
that they had decided as aleadership team to bring in
their team members early inconversations about strategic
change.
Smart.
And not only did they do that,so we worked with them in that
way.
They started at the the initialevolution of this is what we
want to happen to move forward,and they added their team
(05:56):
members' voices in thatconversation, which was amazing,
right?
But they also didn't hidebehind this is what we want you
to do, and that's it.
There was a two-waycommunication.
My background is actually uh uhlargely in part to calm work,
PR work, having done internalcommunications.
(06:19):
And so I understand the powerof a two-way conversation.
Jay, you and I are having thatright now.
But if I just sat here andspoke the whole time, they go,
What is going on here?
Right?
Like she came on, she justtalked the whole time, but there
was no conversation becauseyour listeners expect a
conversation.
Right.
(06:39):
And so what I find is when thatis happening in the at the
inception of a plan of changemanagement, whatever that is,
what you find is that your teammembers are bought into whatever
the outcomes are early.
And then one of the otherthings that I saw that was so
powerful with this group is thatas we move through the process,
(07:00):
as we built what they werelooking for strategically, we
also looked at it in theirpeople, processes, and comms.
So people, processes, andcommunications.
We always focus on not just,hey, here's what it is, but
looking at the actual workflows.
What is that going to look likein their day-to-day in order to
be successful?
What do they need?
And then the biggest win for meis they were able to take that
(07:24):
and teach that out to 100 plusleaders across the organization
at 150% return on investment,just from this small group
saying, We're heading this up,where you know, we are taking
this forward.
And so when you talk about whatwe should be thinking about, a
few of the things that I thinkabout is do I really understand
what's been handed down to me?
unknown (07:46):
Yeah.
Kim Crowder (07:46):
I mean, I think that that's a major question.
Right.
Um, I remember working in anorganization and the way that it
was like numbered parts of thestrategic plan.
And it was like 26.1.4 point.
What?
I can't remember any of that.
Like, I don't, you know what Imean?
Like, I don't know wherewhether I'm coming or going.
And it was sort of this major,major plan that really had no
(08:12):
clear outcomes as to where togo.
It was, here's what we're goingto do, but it didn't tie into
the why.
And the more that leaders canconnect with their team members
and tell them why something isin place and what the goals are
and how it benefits the teammembers as well as their
external audiences, that's wherethe power is.
(08:32):
And so when we watch this groupbe able to communicate that and
also teach that in the work.
So they weren't using a bunchof fancy words.
They were saying, here's thework and here's what it looks
like in your day-to-day workwith their leaders.
That is where we saw actualchange and movement forward.
They won a national awardbecause of that work.
And over three years, when wecome back, when we come back to
(08:54):
them, we did some work um lateron, three years, it was still in
place.
And so when you talk aboutthose long-term impacts, it can
outlast a strategic plan, even.
You know, sometimes strategicplans are two to four years, and
it can outlast that if it is init is implemented into the
day-to-day processes of whatthey're supposed to do, but also
(09:15):
that they feel the that yourleadership feels responsible and
is able to teach that toothers.
Jay Johnson (09:21):
Yeah, it's it seems to me that you gave them
essentially a behavioralblueprint for how the people
will act towards what the actualstrategic initiative was.
And uh, I gotta share so wehave this in common.
My background was incommunications before I went
into psychology and before Istarted studying neuroscience.
So I actually have a degree inuh uh public relations,
(09:43):
communications, interpersonalcommunication as well.
So we have that in common, andI do find it to be one of the
most important things.
But I really love what you saidabout getting that buy-in.
And I think that that's amissing piece because in any
kind of, you know, thepsychology of change management,
if the change is forced uponus, we tend to react to it in a
(10:06):
very negative way.
If we feel like we haveownership, or if we feel like we
have a stake in it, or if wefeel like we're able to
essentially affect the change orhave some kind of voice in the
actual change, and we're theleaders of the change, that
makes it completely different.
So you're doing this at scale,obviously.
(10:26):
And you had said that once youhad developed essentially, you
know, the blueprint, you'dgotten some of the buy-in, and
then you were able to teach itout to the hundred leaders.
What did that process looklike?
How were you able to take it,you know, from that group that
maybe started the process ofcreating the conditions for
whatever the strategy is, andthen the dissemination, because
I think that that's whereoftentimes, and this could be a
(10:49):
strategic plan, this could be arollout of a new technology,
this could be the integration ofa new training program,
whatever those are, it's thedissemination and the
communication that often fallsflat, or is when it's cascaded,
it creates the conditions ofalmost the telephone game.
How have you been able tomanage that as you've as you've
(11:11):
worked with some of these largerorganizations?
Kim Crowder (11:13):
Yeah, my team and I in that initial relationship
build with those leaders, thedissemination does actually does
not happen with us.
And the reason why I think thatis so important is because
we're not in the day-to-day.
You know, it's it's interestingwhen organizations bring in
(11:38):
consultants and expect theconsultants to be the face of
the project.
I feel that is dangerousbecause you don't build the
natural trust that needs tohappen in order to move those
things forward, right?
The real power comes when, yes,you can have it, have advisors.
Um, you can certainly have aroadmap.
(11:58):
I think the powerful piece ismaking sure that internally
you're building the, I call itlike an infrastructure.
When we think about theframeworks that we have in
place, our courageous crowdframeworks, a lot of that is
about trust, it is aboutcommunication, it is about
leadership awareness.
And so having thatinfrastructure in place and
allowing your leadership toactually move that forward is
(12:20):
where the power is.
You talk about the telephonegame, I use that often.
Um, and the way that that wesee this when we talk about
cascading it throughout is ifthe our to us, the win is when
the leadership can teach it.
So if the leadership can'tteach it, and one of the things
that you heard me say was in thework, right?
They're not teaching concepts,they're teaching actual, here's
(12:44):
what it looks like in the work.
Here's what a win looks like inthe work, here's the
expectation, here's what mayhappen in between, where they
can communicate that over andover and over.
That's where the power is.
The power isn't us coming inand saying, and by the way,
you're of course we do the, youknow, we do learning and
development around this.
Of course, we're talking toteam members across the board,
(13:06):
but at the end of the day, we dowalk away.
And so we want to, we want tomake sure that the foundation is
strong enough that when we dowalk away, you know, sometimes
you pop in and out.
But for the most part, thatday-to-day, if that doesn't
exist, those that real trust umand that guidance from your
leadership, what does it matter?
And so we're sort of workingour way out of a job because our
(13:28):
goal is to better theleadership team and their
ability to communicate insteadof creating an environment where
they they need us over and overand over.
And so when I talk about thisclient that had three-year
integration and change, itwasn't because we we held their
hand the whole time.
It was because they were ableto take what they learned and
(13:50):
cascade that out to 100 plusother leaders and sell, no, now
those leaders have thatinformation.
And then you check back in atthose post pulse points and make
sure that it is data-driven,that you know, you're hitting
your milestones, but also thatthe actual work itself is moving
forward in the ways that wereexpected.
(14:10):
Or, you know, if you're havingthose, you know, something
that's snag, then you go, okay,well, tell us more about that.
And then listening to theirteam members who have to carry
it out to say, okay, here's thechallenge, and then reshaping
being able to pivot throughout.
Jay Johnson (14:25):
Love that, Kim.
So, do you mind if I probe intothat process just a little bit
to kind of get a littleinsights?
So, what does that look likewhen you're working with
elevating and upscaling thatleadership team?
Is that a series of trainings?
Is that integrated, uh, youknow, design thinking,
innovation, collaboration,brainstorming?
Is it more of, hey, we're gonnahelp you put together
(14:48):
narratives or scripts?
What does that process looklike to ensure that the team is
kind of speaking the samelanguage and carrying the why in
the messaging?
Kim Crowder (14:58):
Yeah, we we have a uh what we call a 90-day
reality, reality check andreset.
And that's where we start withleadership in this uh, you know,
what you talked about havingthis process of really building
what the goals are, what do wewant the wins to be?
So it's getting clear togetheras a baseline.
(15:19):
And we do that over 90 days.
Um, and the reason why we callit a reality check is because
oftentimes there is thisunspoken language that's
happening behind the scenes, andwe find that leaders may not
know that they're doing it.
So one of the we have this umwhat we call the top five
reasons clients call us.
(15:39):
And one of those are thatleaders are communicating
strategic prioritiesdifferently.
And they don't realize thatthey're they're communicating
that differently because theyare not talking to each other
about how they're communicatingthose priorities, right?
When you get in that C-suiteroom, you're often not saying,
Here's what I'm telling my team,here's what I'm saying.
That's just not what you'retalking about.
You're talking about the bottomline, you're talking about um,
(16:02):
you know, whether or not that'sa 30,000-foot view.
Jay Johnson (16:05):
Yeah.
Kim Crowder (16:06):
That's right.
And so the what we do is getpeople in a room and ask them
questions that they wouldn'tthink to ask each other.
Let's have that realconversation behind closed
doors.
Tell us, you know, what youwant to happen, but also tell us
the shortcomings of the snagsyou may hit.
And then we make sure we alwaysdo an assessment that is across
(16:26):
the organization.
That's a big one because youand I both know that your i at
least I believe that yourfrontline can usually break down
where the issue is going to gowrong way before that happens in
the C-suite.
Jay Johnson (16:39):
Yeah, and actually they usually have a better
finger on the pulse.
Kim Crowder (16:43):
So uh because they're in the day-to-day.
Jay Johnson (16:45):
Yeah, and a majority of the work that I do
is actually with managers.
So I go straight to themanagement function.
I see them as that sort ofgateway in between that
frontline employee, that thatcustomer facing or client
facing, or whomever it is, andthe senior leadership.
And I often feel like they'rebetween that rock and a hard
place because sometimes they'regetting the message from the
(17:06):
top, and the person that's belowthem is like, that's not how it
is.
So right.
Kim Crowder (17:12):
Well, also they're getting that information from
the top, and sometimes theC-suite doesn't quite understand
what middle managers have to gothrough to get that to work.
Jay Johnson (17:23):
Yep.
Kim Crowder (17:24):
Right.
To get that to happen.
And so that's why feedbackstarting with an assessment is
so important.
Um, because now it's not anecho chamber, now it's a back
and forth conversation, right?
And it can happen in ways wherethe executive at the senior
level and executive level feelssafe because we take that for
granted, right?
(17:44):
We just assume because theyhave power that they feel safe
in hearing that back.
And so bringing thatinformation forward during that
90-day reality check and resetallows us to have those
conversations behind closeddoors, um, allows them to hear
their team members' voices, andthen teaching them how to do
that, you know, moving forward.
But that's really where itstarts.
(18:04):
Hold, you know, having that90-day reality check and reset,
having that lab in place,building that together as a
starting point, but using datathat we get from throughout the
organization instead of the datathat only sits in that room.
Jay Johnson (18:19):
Yeah.
It it seems to me it takes a itwould take a lot of humility
for that executive team to beable to kind of take a step back
and say, no, I really want tohear what is happening.
How have you helped?
Because it that can be a bigchallenge, right?
Like we we want to hear, andthis is this is something that
I've noticed where behaviordoesn't always line up with
(18:41):
communication.
Yeah, I want to hear everythingthat's going on in the
organization.
The executive hears it, andthen there's a reaction, or
there's and I'm gonna call it areaction, not a response.
Um, and the reaction isn'tsomething that uh instills more
trust or instills, you know,more uh inspiration for people
(19:02):
to share.
It's almost like, okay, I I Iput my head out there the last
time, I said something, and thenit got pushed back, or it
didn't get uh evaluated, etcetera.
How have you helped maybenavigate some of that um that
willingness to maybe take a stepback and say, hey, listen, uh,
you know, you may hear somethings that you're not gonna
want to hear.
You may hear some things thatdon't make sense to you.
(19:25):
Just take it in.
We're gonna have a conversationabout it.
What does that process looklike?
Because I think that that'sreally a key thing that a lot of
people look at from a behaviorchange is when we hear something
that we don't like aboutourselves, about how we're
performing or where we're at, wenaturally, as human beings,
create the conditions ofresistance because of ego and
(19:45):
self-worth and self-identity.
How do you help break maybesome of that challenge when you
experience it, especially at theexecutive level?
Kim Crowder (19:54):
Yeah.
One of the biggest ways that wedo that is laying the
foundation up front so they havean expect expectation of what's
coming.
Jay Johnson (20:04):
That makes sense.
Yeah.
Kim Crowder (20:05):
Right?
Uh, because the if I knowwhat's coming, I know what could
come, right?
As part of that.
And so really it is buildingthat trust level with our team
and that C-suite and that seniorleadership team first so that
they know that yes, we're gonnahear the feedback, but how we
(20:26):
share that feedback, we makesure that we share that feedback
in a way that is focused on thehow do I say this, focused on
the work itself, but not focusedon being critical of the
executive leadership, the team,or the organization itself.
Does that make sense?
(20:47):
And so the way that we buildback that feedback doesn't look
like they said this and theysaid that.
We do have, you know, wecertainly have data points and
we share that information back,but we share the flip side of
your team could be X, if andhere's what they have said is
(21:08):
necessary to get them there.
Now that makes sense.
And can I tie that to yourbottom line?
Can I tie that to your customersuccess?
You know, we look for datapoints that that C-suite cares
about, so that in hearing that,they go, Oh, okay, now I
understand how this connects tothe business.
Jay Johnson (21:29):
Well, and that connection piece, the connection
between behaviors, betweenunderstanding of the culture and
everything else, to the bottomline.
I think that that map is notalways well drawn.
So the fact that you're doingthat is is really impressive.
One of the things I want to goback to, you had you had said
kind of at the beginning, goodleadership, bad leadership.
And I would love to maybeexplore that just a little bit
(21:52):
from a you know, from a badbehavioral leadership.
Let's let's talk about it fromthe behavior side of things, not
as an individual orinterpersonal.
What would be some of thebehaviors that you would see uh
coming from a leader that youwould say, hey, these are
behaviors that we really need tocorrect or we really need to
shape forward?
What would some of those uh,let's say, unsavory behaviors
(22:16):
look like?
Kim Crowder (22:17):
Yeah, you know, we've seen this in conversations
with CEOs.
We we host a uh a monthlyexecutive conversation where we
bring uh C-suite members, so BPpluses or equivalent, into a
conversation where we talk aboutspecific areas of focus.
(22:37):
And I think about one inparticular um where they said,
oh gosh, I have so many stories,but um, where they said, we ex
we expect I expected my C-suiteto know how to do X without
conversation, without tellingthem.
I just expected it and I was sosurprised.
(23:00):
And that to me is a major areaof development and opportunity,
is not having the expectation,especially now, while we're in
the midst of so much change.
We look at the federalgovernment shutdown, for
instance.
Um, you know, we look atpossible tariffs and just the
(23:22):
economy itself, uh, you know,global relationships.
There's so much right now.
Jay Johnson (23:26):
Technology shifts daily.
That's right.
Kim Crowder (23:29):
AI.
We're talking about AI now,what's the impact and the lack
of succession, uh succession uhability for you know boomers are
leaving the work environment.
Now, what's going to happen?
So there's a lot of um thingsthat are triggering, and we're
not even talking about what'shappening specifically in those
work environments, right?
We're not even talking abouttheir specific challenges.
(23:49):
And I say all that to say isthat um when we talk about
behaviors, it's the assumptionthat at any level that your
leaders know what to do withoutexplicitly hearing that um and
without an explicit conversationabout that.
So that's one.
The second one is not trustingyour leaders.
I think that is a major, majorchallenge.
(24:12):
Um and we've seen, especiallyin times of crisis, in times of
um rapid decision making, thatit is easier maybe for a couple
of people to make the decision.
They feel like it's easier,right?
We can just make it quickly.
We can just make the decision.
But maybe missing that theyhave tunnel vision, because we
(24:34):
we we often work withorganizations in times of crisis
too, um, that they may havetunnel vision in that moment,
that some leaders freeze in inthe moment of change and
challenge.
So not understanding that yourleaders have different ways of
approaching change and ofapproaching high pressure
(24:55):
environments.
That's a second one.
But the third one I would sayis expecting that your team is
just going to move just becauseyou said it.
Yeah, never happens, neverhappens, right?
(25:18):
That the I that this idea of wetold them they were gonna to do
it, and so they're just goingto do it without having that
clarity piece that I talkedabout before.
Why?
The who, what, when, why,right?
Like who, what, you know, likewhat are you asking us to do?
Why are you asking us to dothis?
And making sure that there'snot a silence gap between that.
(25:39):
Because some it's what we'refinding it on the executive side
is that sometimes there can bea silence gap.
And then your team awfulizes,we call it awfulizing, right?
They have this idea aboutwhat's coming, and it's always
worse than typically than what'sactually coming.
And so making sure that yourhighest level of leadership,
(25:59):
they understand that you have tocommunicate forward all of the
time, even if you don't have theanswers.
You have to communicateforward.
Jay Johnson (26:07):
So before we flip over to the the good side of
things, I want to ask aquestion.
You know, what is it that youthink maybe drives that idea uh
from leadership of, hey, if Isay it, it's gonna happen?
Do you think it's the questionof, well, I'm in an authority
position?
Do you think it's a question ofan overestimation of like their
(26:30):
perspective of themselves asbeing a benevolent, you know,
leader?
Oh, if I say it, you know, myteam knows me, they trust me,
they're just gonna follow along.
Uh where do you think that,where do you think that I don't
want to call it hubris because Idon't know that it is all the
time, but what is it thatcreates that condition of we
just sort of expect somebody'sgonna follow, whether from a
(26:51):
title or from, you know, uh evenif we have a good relationship,
even if we have a trustingrelationship, I think that
there's still some resistance tosaying, why do you want me to
do this?
Or what is it?
What creates that sort ofcloudy vision from a leadership
perspective?
And it could be all of theabove, but what's been your
experience?
Kim Crowder (27:11):
Yeah, uh there's a couple of things, is one that
may work in the day-to-day.
Right?
That may work in the day-to-daywhen I'm asking um someone to
do something and they just hopto it and do it, right?
Where it stops working is whenthis is an organizational shift.
(27:32):
So if you have a one-to-onerelationship, sometimes people
say, okay, well, that's youknow, like I know that that's
how they work, and I'm closeenough to them that I trust
that.
But when you're talking aboutwanting to move that down
through that the organization,then that becomes very
different.
It's like a disbursement ofinformation.
I don't necessarily think allthe time that it is a um
(27:55):
self-centered act.
I think it's the easiest optionfor asking people to do things.
The easiest option is I say it,you do it.
Jay Johnson (28:06):
Right.
Kim Crowder (28:07):
But we don't always it's not always that easy.
Well, we don't always skill.
We assume that the skill setexists in those top leaders when
it doesn't always.
We assume that the ability tocommunicate, that the ability to
be a motivational leader, thatthe ability to communicate in
ways that your teams willabsorb.
(28:28):
We assume that our seniorleaders, our C-suite members
have that.
And they don't always, right?
You don't always get to thatposition because you have that.
But the the the way that youknow it is different is because
you hear about those leaders onon a regular basis.
You think about um I think hisname was Rob Nordstrom.
(28:49):
Uh uh and even when you shop atNordstrom, you'll hear his name
about how powerful of a leaderhe was.
I've worked with otherorganizations.
Our team has worked with organor other organizations who came
from that Nordstrom environmentand they are still talking about
him.
He he's no longer on thisearth, but people are still
(29:10):
talking about how he led becauseit was from such a relationship
perspective.
And because he built thatbefore the change, before the
crisis hits, then it's easier.
Really, what it all thosemoments of rapid change, what
we're looking at, that sort ofum, you know, things shifting um
(29:32):
in ways that maybe we didn'tsee coming, is what it does is
it just tells the truth aboutyour foundation, whether there's
a crack in it, whether there'sactual.
And so when you ask me whyleaders might have that, I think
it's just the easier option.
No matter what the backgroundconversation is around that, the
easier option is if I tell themthey'll do it.
(29:52):
Instead of do how do I developthat in not only myself, but the
rest of my leadership so thatthey know how to do it.
Without me always having toexplicitly say it.
What are the expectations?
How do, you know, how do wemove things forward?
Is there clarity in that?
Instead of I'm going to assumethat everybody knows how to do
it.
Jay Johnson (30:11):
Yeah.
No, that's smart.
And I like that because I thinkit it does create the
conditions, right?
Like the other thing that Ithink a leader benefits from is
a team that challenges them andchallenges them in a healthy
way.
It doesn't have to necessarily,you know, it doesn't have to be
like the negative conflict orthe subterfuge or anything else,
but somebody that is going tosay, tell me more about that,
(30:34):
Kim.
Let's see why, you know, helpme understand where this is and
what this looks like in yourvision.
Because you and I both know ascommunication scholars,
communication is a system.
It's the only system we have,but I mean it's it's a flawed
system.
If I say the word, hey,everybody, we're going to go out
and plant a tree, whether youlook at that and say, okay,
(30:54):
well, is it an oak tree?
Is it a uh, you know, is it isit a shag bark hickory tree?
Is it a coniferous tree?
Like what does that tree looklike?
There's a lot ofinterpretations.
We think we're clear when wesaid tree, but there's a lot of
room for error there.
And if we're not actuallychallenging, testing, and having
some of those conversations, Imight be very, I might think
(31:18):
you're well aligned and then allof a sudden find out that
you're planting uh you're you'replanting apple trees when I was
looking at something different,right?
So let's shift gears realquick.
I'd I'd love to hear what aresome of those signs of good,
good leadership, some of thosepositive behaviors that we would
be wanting to watch for thatwould say, hey, you know what?
(31:39):
This leader's kind of on theright track.
They're moving in the rightdirection, or these are the kind
of behaviors that we want tofoster or encourage or upskill.
What would you look at in thatregard?
Kim Crowder (31:50):
Yeah, I think about immediately a leader that we've
worked with who is at a $19.2billion organization.
So I say that number because Iwant to give you the expansion
of how big that organization is.
And in those organizations, youand I both know you have the
people who are, you know, youhave the organizational social
(32:11):
structure, right?
And then you have these pocketswhere the directors are almost
the CEOs of their vertical,yeah.
Right.
And so in that, I'mspecifically talking about it
from that perspective andwatching this director and a
(32:33):
group of directors actuallyoperate, is they were so
absolutely respectfully honestwith each other.
And we sat in rooms wheredisagreements happened, but they
were always respectful, andparticularly the person who um
was over that group was able tosit back and listen and take it
(32:58):
in and actually thank them forthat information.
And um, then we watched thembreak off from that, and because
of how they showed up, theirdirectors were able to do that
as well.
So I watched them listen totheir team members and hear that
feedback and hear reallychallenging feedback sometimes,
(33:21):
even from our end, and not takeoffense to it.
They had a, you know, and said,uh, okay, I hadn't thought of
it that way.
So now it now they moved intosolution driven instead of this
is feedback that is personal,this feedback is here to hurt
me, right?
And instead, this feedback ishere to help us grow.
(33:43):
And now here's the next step.
And actually, again, takingthat feedback and turning it
into an action plan is what'sdeeply powerful because they've
heard back from their teammembers, um, providing that
communication back and forththat's necessary in order to
make an a work environment work,both for the leadership but
also the team.
Jay Johnson (34:04):
I I love that you bring that up because I often
see people talking aboutfeedback, and usually it's in
the direction of givingfeedback.
Right.
I think there's an art toreceiving feedback as well.
One of the things that I andthis goes back to your concept
of two-way communication.
I I, you know, feedback shouldbe a two-way street where
there's question, conversation,inquiry, exploration.
(34:28):
But you know, one of the thingsthat I like to tell people
about feedback is you ought toalways consider feedback as a
gift.
Now, every now and then we geta gift that we don't
particularly love.
It doesn't necessarily line upwith what we wanted or anything
else.
But we still respectfully andgracefully say thank you.
And we look at it and say,well, they were thinking about
(34:50):
me, or there was there was anintentionality behind there.
And maybe they missed the mark,but it's still the
intentionality of learning,growth, et cetera.
And that's really what we needto be thinking about from the
feedback.
So I love that you bring inthat's a high-quality behavior
of a leader, is somebody who'sable to listen, sit back, accept
feedback, not take itnecessarily as interpersonal
(35:13):
criticism, but as an opportunityto grow and move forward.
So that's really powerful.
Any other behaviors?
Kim Crowder (35:19):
Yeah, I was so the feedback piece is extremely
powerful, but also um in thatorganization, as we were moving
forward, this specific changeinitiative, they had a committee
that was focused on it.
And that was really powerfulbecause that committee was a
group of team members whobuy-in, going back to your
(35:42):
concept.
Not only buy-in, but the leadersaying, I'm not the expert
here.
That is powerful, right?
I'm not the expert here, myteam is, and I'm okay with
handing this over to the team.
Of course, you know, they wantto be kept in the loop, but they
are okay with taking a stepback and understanding their
(36:02):
limits.
And so that would be a secondone is being okay with
understanding your limits as aleader and letting your team
members be experts in theprocess.
So that's the second one.
Um, the third one I would sayis continuous improvement and
just understanding nothing'sever going to be the be perfect
the first time around and beingokay that when you're talking
(36:25):
about change, um, when you'retalking about, you know, and
that change, you and I, Jay,could happen in wanting to
change um, you know, teamoptimization, right?
Are we communicating in ways?
Are we connecting in ways?
Um, are we change about how weserve our customers, whatever
that change is, butacknowledging as a leader that
(36:47):
this is a continuous inside job,right?
It never ends and we're alwaysgoing to be looking at it.
Now, sometimes you deprioritizesome of it depending on you
know what else you have, withthe fact that this we're this is
a forever thing, and somethingmay happen that we'll need to
continue completely pivot.
So that flexibility, thatability to be flexible and that
(37:09):
openness to continuousimprovement is is extremely not
only imperative, but it'spowerful.
Jay Johnson (37:16):
That's you know, it's so I love what you bring up
there because that growthmindset, that ability to kind of
take a step back and say,number one, I don't know
everything, but I've got apretty amazing team here.
Let's give them some space toshine, to pull out, you know, to
pull out their their brillianceand to be able to put that into
(37:37):
play.
But then also being able totake that step back and say, I,
you know, the fact that I don'tknow everything today doesn't
mean that I shouldn't belearning more about it by
tomorrow or being bettertomorrow.
So such a powerful lesson.
I really love that, Kim.
Kim, we're we're getting closeto the end of our time here, but
I did want to ask CourageousCrowd.
(37:58):
I, you know, as I as I wasexploring your uh as I was
exploring your LinkedIn andeverything else, yeah, there was
a mention of the courageouscrowd.
Could you give us just a quicksynopsis?
What is the courageous crowd?
Kim Crowder (38:10):
Yeah, the courageous crowd is the name of
my organization and my it and myteam.
And what the courageous crowdis, is what we're talking about.
It is those leaders who arecourageous in the work that they
do on a day-to-day, not becausethey feel courageous, but
because they're doing the thingsthat make them courageous as
(38:30):
leaders.
And a lot of them are doing thevery things that we talked
about.
That, you know, the leadersthat we work with embody all of
these principles, notnecessarily always at the same
time, not necessarilyimmediately when we meet them,
but they're up for thechallenge.
And that makes us courageous.
Perfection is not courageous.
(38:53):
And and also um we tend to, youknow, when we talk about our
clients internally, we talkabout them as courageous
crowders.
Courageous crowd is a play onmy last name.
My last name is Crowder.
So Crowd and then Crowders.
Um, but it also embodies who Ibelieve we are in the work that
we're doing.
(39:13):
This is challenging work.
This is uh, you know, workwhere we ourselves have to be
open to is there newpeer-reviewed journals out, new
research out that helps uh usreframe some of our frameworks
that helps us to speak aboutthis differently, where we can
take feedback from our clients.
And so all of that, all of thisis what I consider sort of this
(39:37):
um universe of courageousnessand us defining it regularly,
but also we have the principlesin place internally that we are
asking from our leaders, right?
I don't, I can't ask ourclients to be anything that I'm
unwilling to be.
Right.
And so that's where courageouscrowd comes from.
Jay Johnson (39:58):
I I love it.
It caught my attention.
One of my core values outsideof mastery and independence is
courage.
And I try to show up withcourage even when I don't have
the answers or when I don'tknow, being willing to say I
don't know, and jump into that.
So it really resonated with me,Kim.
Thank you.
Kim, if our audience wanted toget in touch with you, how would
(40:21):
they reach out to you?
Kim Crowder (40:22):
Yeah, one of those things that I mentioned was that
we have these executiveconversations virtually once a
month.
The way that you can get intouch with us, if you'd like to
join that, just DM me onLinkedIn, Kim Crowder.
I'm easy to find on LinkedIn.
You're welcome to follow for alittle bit, take a step back and
see if you want to join.
Uh, but if you already knowimmediately that you want to be
(40:44):
a part of those conversations,they're small, they're intimate,
um, and leaders are reallysharing and being open.
DM me at uh, you know,LinkedIn.
What is it, forward slash KimCrowder?
Jay Johnson (40:57):
Forward slash Kim Crowder.
Yep.
Kim Crowder (40:58):
Yeah, and and we're happy to bring you into that
conversation.
Jay Johnson (41:02):
That's amazing.
Well, I just want to say thankyou because your insight on the
behaviors of leadership and theway that you're approaching, you
know, some of theseorganizational changes.
I know that our audience isunder constant change, just as
you said, whether it's you knowpolitical, whether it's social,
whether it's economical, orwhether it's even technological,
(41:24):
change is just happening sofast nowadays.
And it's one of those thingswhere it sounds to me like
you're having a great impactwith organizations and being
able to leverage thatunderstanding of change, that
understanding of communication,the people, the processes, and
being able to help them navigatethat forward.
(41:44):
So thank you for being here andsharing that with our audience
today, Kim.
Kim Crowder (41:49):
Thanks for having me, Jay.
It was a pleasure.
Jay Johnson (41:51):
Yeah, and thank you, audience, for tuning into
this episode of the TalentForge, where together we are
shaping workforce behaviors.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where together we are shapingworkforce behaviors.
I am really excited becausetoday my guest is Kim Crowder.
I want to say welcome to theshow, Kim.
Kim Crowder (00:11):
Hi, thanks.
Uh thanks, Jay.
Good to meet you.
Jay Johnson (00:13):
Good to meet you as well.
So I've been looking forward tothis conversation.
We were mutually introduced bya colleague and a past
talentforge guest, uh HankWethington.
And uh he had some incrediblethings to say about you.
So I'm very excited about this.
And uh, Kim, why don't we getto know you a little bit better?
Can you tell us, yeah, how didyou get into this talent
(00:35):
development space?
How'd you get into behaviorchange?
What drives you?
Kim Crowder (00:39):
Yeah, Hank's let me just first start off saying by
Hank is a really great person,and I've I've had the pleasure
of uh connecting with him.
When you asked me how I gotinto it, it's it I think my
story is interesting.
But uh my my stories start incorporate America, uh, where I
myself was an executive and aleader, and then also started to
(01:03):
I I feel like I sort of it Ifell upon this work in the way
that I swear, Kim, every wewe've had so many conversations.
Jay Johnson (01:13):
It's like I'm here by accident, and I fell in love
with it.
Yeah, no, that's amazing.
Kim Crowder (01:19):
I uh I was doing work in that position, and
people started talking about thework that we were doing,
basically.
And in that, I took that, ittook you know, conversations
into conferences, and then Istarted getting work.
I mean, that really is theshort and the long of it uh to a
degree, but also I saw theimpact of strong leadership
(01:42):
versus poor leadership, and thatreally was the biggest piece,
the impact that poor leadershiphad on myself, um, even down to
medical impact.
And then also being able towalk into an organization with a
team of um folks who had neverreally done the work that I was
expected to bring forward, andtaking them and upskilling and
(02:07):
reskilling them.
So that's why I one of thethings I'm most passionate about
is when we talk about executiveleadership, when we work with
our clients, when we're talkingabout that senior at that senior
leadership level, is what Ifind in things like strategic
planning, for instance, orchange management, is that
(02:27):
oftentimes the work itself, thethe technical pieces are in
place, right?
We know where we want to go, weknow what we want to do, but
rarely, if ever, is there aconversation about the impact
internally?
What does that mean?
Is our team ready to move thisforward?
How have we actively developedour team internally, especially
(02:51):
our leaders, to be able toflourish in this new environment
that we're trying to create?
And so that really is where Isaw that gap and decided after
my own experiences, especiallybehind the veil, right?
That C-suite is like behind theveil.
You see how decisions are made,you see how policy is moved
(03:13):
forward, understanding that andwanting to make sure that other
workplaces were making sure theyunderstood how to have wins and
how to eradicate as muchdeletion from like loss, right?
To have as little loss aspossible.
Jay Johnson (03:32):
So this is there's so much to unpack here.
I have so many questions foryou.
So uh I'm gonna go back to thegood and bad leadership in just
a minute, but I think I want tostart with as you're talking
about, and I you're so right,right?
Like the C-suite meets behindthe scenes, they bring in an
executive strategic planningconsultant, they come up with
(03:54):
the plan, and then theyimmediately try to roll the plan
out to the organization.
And I'm gonna I'm gonna admit,I've done this myself, and I'm a
much smaller organization.
Kim Crowder (04:05):
Yeah, right?
Jay Johnson (04:06):
So uh okay, so let's talk about that process,
getting the team ready, makingsure that they're prepared.
What does that look like?
How do we, how do we, if ifwe're in an organization and
we've gotten a strategic planhanded down to us, what should
we be thinking about?
Kim Crowder (04:22):
Yeah.
And when you say we, who is we?
Jay Johnson (04:25):
We as the employees, the managers, the
teams, the talent developmentcrew, the HR team, etc.
So I'm kind of thinking aboutit in terms of, you know, a
majority of our listeners areprobably, they've probably been
handed that strategic planbefore.
They've probably gottensomething that said, hey,
disseminate this out to your,you know, out to your group,
(04:46):
your team, your division, etcetera.
What should we be thinkingabout when that occurs?
Kim Crowder (04:52):
You know, it's a that's a that's a double-edged
sword, and I'll tell you why Isay it that way.
Uh, because most initiativesare basically marching orders,
right?
Um we've decided this is wherewe want to go.
Here you go.
Like, okay, now carry that out.
And I believe that in that,what let me just say this one of
(05:13):
the the most amazing clientsthat we've ever had is a
longtime client.
They're actually uh Jay inMichigan, where you are.
Um and we started working withthem about three years ago.
And what was so impactful tothat group, in my opinion, is
(05:34):
that they had decided as aleadership team to bring in
their team members early inconversations about strategic
change.
Smart.
And not only did they do that,so we worked with them in that
way.
They started at the the initialevolution of this is what we
want to happen to move forward,and they added their team
(05:56):
members' voices in thatconversation, which was amazing,
right?
But they also didn't hidebehind this is what we want you
to do, and that's it.
There was a two-waycommunication.
My background is actually uh uhlargely in part to calm work,
PR work, having done internalcommunications.
(06:19):
And so I understand the powerof a two-way conversation.
Jay, you and I are having thatright now.
But if I just sat here andspoke the whole time, they go,
What is going on here?
Right?
Like she came on, she justtalked the whole time, but there
was no conversation becauseyour listeners expect a
conversation.
Right.
(06:39):
And so what I find is when thatis happening in the at the
inception of a plan of changemanagement, whatever that is,
what you find is that your teammembers are bought into whatever
the outcomes are early.
And then one of the otherthings that I saw that was so
powerful with this group is thatas we move through the process,
(07:00):
as we built what they werelooking for strategically, we
also looked at it in theirpeople, processes, and comms.
So people, processes, andcommunications.
We always focus on not just,hey, here's what it is, but
looking at the actual workflows.
What is that going to look likein their day-to-day in order to
be successful?
What do they need?
And then the biggest win for meis they were able to take that
(07:24):
and teach that out to 100 plusleaders across the organization
at 150% return on investment,just from this small group
saying, We're heading this up,where you know, we are taking
this forward.
And so when you talk about whatwe should be thinking about, a
few of the things that I thinkabout is do I really understand
what's been handed down to me?
unknown (07:46):
Yeah.
Kim Crowder (07:46):
I mean, I think that that's a major question.
Right.
Um, I remember working in anorganization and the way that it
was like numbered parts of thestrategic plan.
And it was like 26.1.4 point.
What?
I can't remember any of that.
Like, I don't, you know what Imean?
Like, I don't know wherewhether I'm coming or going.
And it was sort of this major,major plan that really had no
(08:12):
clear outcomes as to where togo.
It was, here's what we're goingto do, but it didn't tie into
the why.
And the more that leaders canconnect with their team members
and tell them why something isin place and what the goals are
and how it benefits the teammembers as well as their
external audiences, that's wherethe power is.
(08:32):
And so when we watch this groupbe able to communicate that and
also teach that in the work.
So they weren't using a bunchof fancy words.
They were saying, here's thework and here's what it looks
like in your day-to-day workwith their leaders.
That is where we saw actualchange and movement forward.
They won a national awardbecause of that work.
And over three years, when wecome back, when we come back to
(08:54):
them, we did some work um lateron, three years, it was still in
place.
And so when you talk aboutthose long-term impacts, it can
outlast a strategic plan, even.
You know, sometimes strategicplans are two to four years, and
it can outlast that if it is init is implemented into the
day-to-day processes of whatthey're supposed to do, but also
(09:15):
that they feel the that yourleadership feels responsible and
is able to teach that toothers.
Jay Johnson (09:21):
Yeah, it's it seems to me that you gave them
essentially a behavioralblueprint for how the people
will act towards what the actualstrategic initiative was.
And uh, I gotta share so wehave this in common.
My background was incommunications before I went
into psychology and before Istarted studying neuroscience.
So I actually have a degree inuh uh public relations,
(09:43):
communications, interpersonalcommunication as well.
So we have that in common, andI do find it to be one of the
most important things.
But I really love what you saidabout getting that buy-in.
And I think that that's amissing piece because in any
kind of, you know, thepsychology of change management,
if the change is forced uponus, we tend to react to it in a
(10:06):
very negative way.
If we feel like we haveownership, or if we feel like we
have a stake in it, or if wefeel like we're able to
essentially affect the change orhave some kind of voice in the
actual change, and we're theleaders of the change, that
makes it completely different.
So you're doing this at scale,obviously.
(10:26):
And you had said that once youhad developed essentially, you
know, the blueprint, you'dgotten some of the buy-in, and
then you were able to teach itout to the hundred leaders.
What did that process looklike?
How were you able to take it,you know, from that group that
maybe started the process ofcreating the conditions for
whatever the strategy is, andthen the dissemination, because
I think that that's whereoftentimes, and this could be a
(10:49):
strategic plan, this could be arollout of a new technology,
this could be the integration ofa new training program,
whatever those are, it's thedissemination and the
communication that often fallsflat, or is when it's cascaded,
it creates the conditions ofalmost the telephone game.
How have you been able tomanage that as you've as you've
(11:11):
worked with some of these largerorganizations?
Kim Crowder (11:13):
Yeah, my team and I in that initial relationship
build with those leaders, thedissemination does actually does
not happen with us.
And the reason why I think thatis so important is because
we're not in the day-to-day.
You know, it's it's interestingwhen organizations bring in
(11:38):
consultants and expect theconsultants to be the face of
the project.
I feel that is dangerousbecause you don't build the
natural trust that needs tohappen in order to move those
things forward, right?
The real power comes when, yes,you can have it, have advisors.
Um, you can certainly have aroadmap.
(11:58):
I think the powerful piece ismaking sure that internally
you're building the, I call itlike an infrastructure.
When we think about theframeworks that we have in
place, our courageous crowdframeworks, a lot of that is
about trust, it is aboutcommunication, it is about
leadership awareness.
And so having thatinfrastructure in place and
allowing your leadership toactually move that forward is
(12:20):
where the power is.
You talk about the telephonegame, I use that often.
Um, and the way that that wesee this when we talk about
cascading it throughout is ifthe our to us, the win is when
the leadership can teach it.
So if the leadership can'tteach it, and one of the things
that you heard me say was in thework, right?
They're not teaching concepts,they're teaching actual, here's
(12:44):
what it looks like in the work.
Here's what a win looks like inthe work, here's the
expectation, here's what mayhappen in between, where they
can communicate that over andover and over.
That's where the power is.
The power isn't us coming inand saying, and by the way,
you're of course we do the, youknow, we do learning and
development around this.
Of course, we're talking toteam members across the board,
(13:06):
but at the end of the day, we dowalk away.
And so we want to, we want tomake sure that the foundation is
strong enough that when we dowalk away, you know, sometimes
you pop in and out.
But for the most part, thatday-to-day, if that doesn't
exist, those that real trust umand that guidance from your
leadership, what does it matter?
And so we're sort of workingour way out of a job because our
(13:28):
goal is to better theleadership team and their
ability to communicate insteadof creating an environment where
they they need us over and overand over.
And so when I talk about thisclient that had three-year
integration and change, itwasn't because we we held their
hand the whole time.
It was because they were ableto take what they learned and
(13:50):
cascade that out to 100 plusother leaders and sell, no, now
those leaders have thatinformation.
And then you check back in atthose post pulse points and make
sure that it is data-driven,that you know, you're hitting
your milestones, but also thatthe actual work itself is moving
forward in the ways that wereexpected.
(14:10):
Or, you know, if you're havingthose, you know, something
that's snag, then you go, okay,well, tell us more about that.
And then listening to theirteam members who have to carry
it out to say, okay, here's thechallenge, and then reshaping
being able to pivot throughout.
Jay Johnson (14:25):
Love that, Kim.
So, do you mind if I probe intothat process just a little bit
to kind of get a littleinsights?
So, what does that look likewhen you're working with
elevating and upscaling thatleadership team?
Is that a series of trainings?
Is that integrated, uh, youknow, design thinking,
innovation, collaboration,brainstorming?
Is it more of, hey, we're gonnahelp you put together
(14:48):
narratives or scripts?
What does that process looklike to ensure that the team is
kind of speaking the samelanguage and carrying the why in
the messaging?
Kim Crowder (14:58):
Yeah, we we have a uh what we call a 90-day
reality, reality check andreset.
And that's where we start withleadership in this uh, you know,
what you talked about havingthis process of really building
what the goals are, what do wewant the wins to be?
So it's getting clear togetheras a baseline.
(15:19):
And we do that over 90 days.
Um, and the reason why we callit a reality check is because
oftentimes there is thisunspoken language that's
happening behind the scenes, andwe find that leaders may not
know that they're doing it.
So one of the we have this umwhat we call the top five
reasons clients call us.
(15:39):
And one of those are thatleaders are communicating
strategic prioritiesdifferently.
And they don't realize thatthey're they're communicating
that differently because theyare not talking to each other
about how they're communicatingthose priorities, right?
When you get in that C-suiteroom, you're often not saying,
Here's what I'm telling my team,here's what I'm saying.
That's just not what you'retalking about.
You're talking about the bottomline, you're talking about um,
(16:02):
you know, whether or not that'sa 30,000-foot view.
Jay Johnson (16:05):
Yeah.
Kim Crowder (16:06):
That's right.
And so the what we do is getpeople in a room and ask them
questions that they wouldn'tthink to ask each other.
Let's have that realconversation behind closed
doors.
Tell us, you know, what youwant to happen, but also tell us
the shortcomings of the snagsyou may hit.
And then we make sure we alwaysdo an assessment that is across
(16:26):
the organization.
That's a big one because youand I both know that your i at
least I believe that yourfrontline can usually break down
where the issue is going to gowrong way before that happens in
the C-suite.
Jay Johnson (16:39):
Yeah, and actually they usually have a better
finger on the pulse.
Kim Crowder (16:43):
So uh because they're in the day-to-day.
Jay Johnson (16:45):
Yeah, and a majority of the work that I do
is actually with managers.
So I go straight to themanagement function.
I see them as that sort ofgateway in between that
frontline employee, that thatcustomer facing or client
facing, or whomever it is, andthe senior leadership.
And I often feel like they'rebetween that rock and a hard
place because sometimes they'regetting the message from the
(17:06):
top, and the person that's belowthem is like, that's not how it
is.
So right.
Kim Crowder (17:12):
Well, also they're getting that information from
the top, and sometimes theC-suite doesn't quite understand
what middle managers have to gothrough to get that to work.
Jay Johnson (17:23):
Yep.
Kim Crowder (17:24):
Right.
To get that to happen.
And so that's why feedbackstarting with an assessment is
so important.
Um, because now it's not anecho chamber, now it's a back
and forth conversation, right?
And it can happen in ways wherethe executive at the senior
level and executive level feelssafe because we take that for
granted, right?
(17:44):
We just assume because theyhave power that they feel safe
in hearing that back.
And so bringing thatinformation forward during that
90-day reality check and resetallows us to have those
conversations behind closeddoors, um, allows them to hear
their team members' voices, andthen teaching them how to do
that, you know, moving forward.
But that's really where itstarts.
(18:04):
Hold, you know, having that90-day reality check and reset,
having that lab in place,building that together as a
starting point, but using datathat we get from throughout the
organization instead of the datathat only sits in that room.
Jay Johnson (18:19):
Yeah.
It it seems to me it takes a itwould take a lot of humility
for that executive team to beable to kind of take a step back
and say, no, I really want tohear what is happening.
How have you helped?
Because it that can be a bigchallenge, right?
Like we we want to hear, andthis is this is something that
I've noticed where behaviordoesn't always line up with
(18:41):
communication.
Yeah, I want to hear everythingthat's going on in the
organization.
The executive hears it, andthen there's a reaction, or
there's and I'm gonna call it areaction, not a response.
Um, and the reaction isn'tsomething that uh instills more
trust or instills, you know,more uh inspiration for people
(19:02):
to share.
It's almost like, okay, I I Iput my head out there the last
time, I said something, and thenit got pushed back, or it
didn't get uh evaluated, etcetera.
How have you helped maybenavigate some of that um that
willingness to maybe take a stepback and say, hey, listen, uh,
you know, you may hear somethings that you're not gonna
want to hear.
You may hear some things thatdon't make sense to you.
(19:25):
Just take it in.
We're gonna have a conversationabout it.
What does that process looklike?
Because I think that that'sreally a key thing that a lot of
people look at from a behaviorchange is when we hear something
that we don't like aboutourselves, about how we're
performing or where we're at, wenaturally, as human beings,
create the conditions ofresistance because of ego and
(19:45):
self-worth and self-identity.
How do you help break maybesome of that challenge when you
experience it, especially at theexecutive level?
Kim Crowder (19:54):
Yeah.
One of the biggest ways that wedo that is laying the
foundation up front so they havean expect expectation of what's
coming.
Jay Johnson (20:04):
That makes sense.
Yeah.
Kim Crowder (20:05):
Right?
Uh, because the if I knowwhat's coming, I know what could
come, right?
As part of that.
And so really it is buildingthat trust level with our team
and that C-suite and that seniorleadership team first so that
they know that yes, we're gonnahear the feedback, but how we
(20:26):
share that feedback, we makesure that we share that feedback
in a way that is focused on thehow do I say this, focused on
the work itself, but not focusedon being critical of the
executive leadership, the team,or the organization itself.
Does that make sense?
(20:47):
And so the way that we buildback that feedback doesn't look
like they said this and theysaid that.
We do have, you know, wecertainly have data points and
we share that information back,but we share the flip side of
your team could be X, if andhere's what they have said is
(21:08):
necessary to get them there.
Now that makes sense.
And can I tie that to yourbottom line?
Can I tie that to your customersuccess?
You know, we look for datapoints that that C-suite cares
about, so that in hearing that,they go, Oh, okay, now I
understand how this connects tothe business.
Jay Johnson (21:29):
Well, and that connection piece, the connection
between behaviors, betweenunderstanding of the culture and
everything else, to the bottomline.
I think that that map is notalways well drawn.
So the fact that you're doingthat is is really impressive.
One of the things I want to goback to, you had you had said
kind of at the beginning, goodleadership, bad leadership.
And I would love to maybeexplore that just a little bit
(21:52):
from a you know, from a badbehavioral leadership.
Let's let's talk about it fromthe behavior side of things, not
as an individual orinterpersonal.
What would be some of thebehaviors that you would see uh
coming from a leader that youwould say, hey, these are
behaviors that we really need tocorrect or we really need to
shape forward?
What would some of those uh,let's say, unsavory behaviors
(22:16):
look like?
Kim Crowder (22:17):
Yeah, you know, we've seen this in conversations
with CEOs.
We we host a uh a monthlyexecutive conversation where we
bring uh C-suite members, so BPpluses or equivalent, into a
conversation where we talk aboutspecific areas of focus.
(22:37):
And I think about one inparticular um where they said,
oh gosh, I have so many stories,but um, where they said, we ex
we expect I expected my C-suiteto know how to do X without
conversation, without tellingthem.
I just expected it and I was sosurprised.
(23:00):
And that to me is a major areaof development and opportunity,
is not having the expectation,especially now, while we're in
the midst of so much change.
We look at the federalgovernment shutdown, for
instance.
Um, you know, we look atpossible tariffs and just the
(23:22):
economy itself, uh, you know,global relationships.
There's so much right now.
Jay Johnson (23:26):
Technology shifts daily.
That's right.
Kim Crowder (23:29):
AI.
We're talking about AI now,what's the impact and the lack
of succession, uh succession uhability for you know boomers are
leaving the work environment.
Now, what's going to happen?
So there's a lot of um thingsthat are triggering, and we're
not even talking about what'shappening specifically in those
work environments, right?
We're not even talking abouttheir specific challenges.
(23:49):
And I say all that to say isthat um when we talk about
behaviors, it's the assumptionthat at any level that your
leaders know what to do withoutexplicitly hearing that um and
without an explicit conversationabout that.
So that's one.
The second one is not trustingyour leaders.
I think that is a major, majorchallenge.
(24:12):
Um and we've seen, especiallyin times of crisis, in times of
um rapid decision making, thatit is easier maybe for a couple
of people to make the decision.
They feel like it's easier,right?
We can just make it quickly.
We can just make the decision.
But maybe missing that theyhave tunnel vision, because we
(24:34):
we we often work withorganizations in times of crisis
too, um, that they may havetunnel vision in that moment,
that some leaders freeze in inthe moment of change and
challenge.
So not understanding that yourleaders have different ways of
approaching change and ofapproaching high pressure
(24:55):
environments.
That's a second one.
But the third one I would sayis expecting that your team is
just going to move just becauseyou said it.
Yeah, never happens, neverhappens, right?
(25:18):
That the I that this idea of wetold them they were gonna to do
it, and so they're just goingto do it without having that
clarity piece that I talkedabout before.
Why?
The who, what, when, why,right?
Like who, what, you know, likewhat are you asking us to do?
Why are you asking us to dothis?
And making sure that there'snot a silence gap between that.
(25:39):
Because some it's what we'refinding it on the executive side
is that sometimes there can bea silence gap.
And then your team awfulizes,we call it awfulizing, right?
They have this idea aboutwhat's coming, and it's always
worse than typically than what'sactually coming.
And so making sure that yourhighest level of leadership,
(25:59):
they understand that you have tocommunicate forward all of the
time, even if you don't have theanswers.
You have to communicateforward.
Jay Johnson (26:07):
So before we flip over to the the good side of
things, I want to ask aquestion.
You know, what is it that youthink maybe drives that idea uh
from leadership of, hey, if Isay it, it's gonna happen?
Do you think it's the questionof, well, I'm in an authority
position?
Do you think it's a question ofan overestimation of like their
(26:30):
perspective of themselves asbeing a benevolent, you know,
leader?
Oh, if I say it, you know, myteam knows me, they trust me,
they're just gonna follow along.
Uh where do you think that,where do you think that I don't
want to call it hubris because Idon't know that it is all the
time, but what is it thatcreates that condition of we
just sort of expect somebody'sgonna follow, whether from a
(26:51):
title or from, you know, uh evenif we have a good relationship,
even if we have a trustingrelationship, I think that
there's still some resistance tosaying, why do you want me to
do this?
Or what is it?
What creates that sort ofcloudy vision from a leadership
perspective?
And it could be all of theabove, but what's been your
experience?
Kim Crowder (27:11):
Yeah, uh there's a couple of things, is one that
may work in the day-to-day.
Right?
That may work in the day-to-daywhen I'm asking um someone to
do something and they just hopto it and do it, right?
Where it stops working is whenthis is an organizational shift.
(27:32):
So if you have a one-to-onerelationship, sometimes people
say, okay, well, that's youknow, like I know that that's
how they work, and I'm closeenough to them that I trust
that.
But when you're talking aboutwanting to move that down
through that the organization,then that becomes very
different.
It's like a disbursement ofinformation.
I don't necessarily think allthe time that it is a um
(27:55):
self-centered act.
I think it's the easiest optionfor asking people to do things.
The easiest option is I say it,you do it.
Jay Johnson (28:06):
Right.
Kim Crowder (28:07):
But we don't always it's not always that easy.
Well, we don't always skill.
We assume that the skill setexists in those top leaders when
it doesn't always.
We assume that the ability tocommunicate, that the ability to
be a motivational leader, thatthe ability to communicate in
ways that your teams willabsorb.
(28:28):
We assume that our seniorleaders, our C-suite members
have that.
And they don't always, right?
You don't always get to thatposition because you have that.
But the the the way that youknow it is different is because
you hear about those leaders onon a regular basis.
You think about um I think hisname was Rob Nordstrom.
(28:49):
Uh uh and even when you shop atNordstrom, you'll hear his name
about how powerful of a leaderhe was.
I've worked with otherorganizations.
Our team has worked with organor other organizations who came
from that Nordstrom environmentand they are still talking about
him.
He he's no longer on thisearth, but people are still
(29:10):
talking about how he led becauseit was from such a relationship
perspective.
And because he built thatbefore the change, before the
crisis hits, then it's easier.
Really, what it all thosemoments of rapid change, what
we're looking at, that sort ofum, you know, things shifting um
(29:32):
in ways that maybe we didn'tsee coming, is what it does is
it just tells the truth aboutyour foundation, whether there's
a crack in it, whether there'sactual.
And so when you ask me whyleaders might have that, I think
it's just the easier option.
No matter what the backgroundconversation is around that, the
easier option is if I tell themthey'll do it.
(29:52):
Instead of do how do I developthat in not only myself, but the
rest of my leadership so thatthey know how to do it.
Without me always having toexplicitly say it.
What are the expectations?
How do, you know, how do wemove things forward?
Is there clarity in that?
Instead of I'm going to assumethat everybody knows how to do
it.
Jay Johnson (30:11):
Yeah.
No, that's smart.
And I like that because I thinkit it does create the
conditions, right?
Like the other thing that Ithink a leader benefits from is
a team that challenges them andchallenges them in a healthy
way.
It doesn't have to necessarily,you know, it doesn't have to be
like the negative conflict orthe subterfuge or anything else,
but somebody that is going tosay, tell me more about that,
(30:34):
Kim.
Let's see why, you know, helpme understand where this is and
what this looks like in yourvision.
Because you and I both know ascommunication scholars,
communication is a system.
It's the only system we have,but I mean it's it's a flawed
system.
If I say the word, hey,everybody, we're going to go out
and plant a tree, whether youlook at that and say, okay,
(30:54):
well, is it an oak tree?
Is it a uh, you know, is it isit a shag bark hickory tree?
Is it a coniferous tree?
Like what does that tree looklike?
There's a lot ofinterpretations.
We think we're clear when wesaid tree, but there's a lot of
room for error there.
And if we're not actuallychallenging, testing, and having
some of those conversations, Imight be very, I might think
(31:18):
you're well aligned and then allof a sudden find out that
you're planting uh you're you'replanting apple trees when I was
looking at something different,right?
So let's shift gears realquick.
I'd I'd love to hear what aresome of those signs of good,
good leadership, some of thosepositive behaviors that we would
be wanting to watch for thatwould say, hey, you know what?
(31:39):
This leader's kind of on theright track.
They're moving in the rightdirection, or these are the kind
of behaviors that we want tofoster or encourage or upskill.
What would you look at in thatregard?
Kim Crowder (31:50):
Yeah, I think about immediately a leader that we've
worked with who is at a $19.2billion organization.
So I say that number because Iwant to give you the expansion
of how big that organization is.
And in those organizations, youand I both know you have the
people who are, you know, youhave the organizational social
(32:11):
structure, right?
And then you have these pocketswhere the directors are almost
the CEOs of their vertical,yeah.
Right.
And so in that, I'mspecifically talking about it
from that perspective andwatching this director and a
(32:33):
group of directors actuallyoperate, is they were so
absolutely respectfully honestwith each other.
And we sat in rooms wheredisagreements happened, but they
were always respectful, andparticularly the person who um
was over that group was able tosit back and listen and take it
(32:58):
in and actually thank them forthat information.
And um, then we watched thembreak off from that, and because
of how they showed up, theirdirectors were able to do that
as well.
So I watched them listen totheir team members and hear that
feedback and hear reallychallenging feedback sometimes,
(33:21):
even from our end, and not takeoffense to it.
They had a, you know, and said,uh, okay, I hadn't thought of
it that way.
So now it now they moved intosolution driven instead of this
is feedback that is personal,this feedback is here to hurt
me, right?
And instead, this feedback ishere to help us grow.
(33:43):
And now here's the next step.
And actually, again, takingthat feedback and turning it
into an action plan is what'sdeeply powerful because they've
heard back from their teammembers, um, providing that
communication back and forththat's necessary in order to
make an a work environment work,both for the leadership but
also the team.
Jay Johnson (34:04):
I I love that you bring that up because I often
see people talking aboutfeedback, and usually it's in
the direction of givingfeedback.
Right.
I think there's an art toreceiving feedback as well.
One of the things that I andthis goes back to your concept
of two-way communication.
I I, you know, feedback shouldbe a two-way street where
there's question, conversation,inquiry, exploration.
(34:28):
But you know, one of the thingsthat I like to tell people
about feedback is you ought toalways consider feedback as a
gift.
Now, every now and then we geta gift that we don't
particularly love.
It doesn't necessarily line upwith what we wanted or anything
else.
But we still respectfully andgracefully say thank you.
And we look at it and say,well, they were thinking about
(34:50):
me, or there was there was anintentionality behind there.
And maybe they missed the mark,but it's still the
intentionality of learning,growth, et cetera.
And that's really what we needto be thinking about from the
feedback.
So I love that you bring inthat's a high-quality behavior
of a leader, is somebody who'sable to listen, sit back, accept
feedback, not take itnecessarily as interpersonal
(35:13):
criticism, but as an opportunityto grow and move forward.
So that's really powerful.
Any other behaviors?
Kim Crowder (35:19):
Yeah, I was so the feedback piece is extremely
powerful, but also um in thatorganization, as we were moving
forward, this specific changeinitiative, they had a committee
that was focused on it.
And that was really powerfulbecause that committee was a
group of team members whobuy-in, going back to your
(35:42):
concept.
Not only buy-in, but the leadersaying, I'm not the expert
here.
That is powerful, right?
I'm not the expert here, myteam is, and I'm okay with
handing this over to the team.
Of course, you know, they wantto be kept in the loop, but they
are okay with taking a stepback and understanding their
(36:02):
limits.
And so that would be a secondone is being okay with
understanding your limits as aleader and letting your team
members be experts in theprocess.
So that's the second one.
Um, the third one I would sayis continuous improvement and
just understanding nothing'sever going to be the be perfect
the first time around and beingokay that when you're talking
(36:25):
about change, um, when you'retalking about, you know, and
that change, you and I, Jay,could happen in wanting to
change um, you know, teamoptimization, right?
Are we communicating in ways?
Are we connecting in ways?
Um, are we change about how weserve our customers, whatever
that change is, butacknowledging as a leader that
(36:47):
this is a continuous inside job,right?
It never ends and we're alwaysgoing to be looking at it.
Now, sometimes you deprioritizesome of it depending on you
know what else you have, withthe fact that this we're this is
a forever thing, and somethingmay happen that we'll need to
continue completely pivot.
So that flexibility, thatability to be flexible and that
(37:09):
openness to continuousimprovement is is extremely not
only imperative, but it'spowerful.
Jay Johnson (37:16):
That's you know, it's so I love what you bring up
there because that growthmindset, that ability to kind of
take a step back and say,number one, I don't know
everything, but I've got apretty amazing team here.
Let's give them some space toshine, to pull out, you know, to
pull out their their brillianceand to be able to put that into
(37:37):
play.
But then also being able totake that step back and say, I,
you know, the fact that I don'tknow everything today doesn't
mean that I shouldn't belearning more about it by
tomorrow or being bettertomorrow.
So such a powerful lesson.
I really love that, Kim.
Kim, we're we're getting closeto the end of our time here, but
I did want to ask CourageousCrowd.
(37:58):
I, you know, as I as I wasexploring your uh as I was
exploring your LinkedIn andeverything else, yeah, there was
a mention of the courageouscrowd.
Could you give us just a quicksynopsis?
What is the courageous crowd?
Kim Crowder (38:10):
Yeah, the courageous crowd is the name of
my organization and my it and myteam.
And what the courageous crowdis, is what we're talking about.
It is those leaders who arecourageous in the work that they
do on a day-to-day, not becausethey feel courageous, but
because they're doing the thingsthat make them courageous as
(38:30):
leaders.
And a lot of them are doing thevery things that we talked
about.
That, you know, the leadersthat we work with embody all of
these principles, notnecessarily always at the same
time, not necessarilyimmediately when we meet them,
but they're up for thechallenge.
And that makes us courageous.
Perfection is not courageous.
(38:53):
And and also um we tend to, youknow, when we talk about our
clients internally, we talkabout them as courageous
crowders.
Courageous crowd is a play onmy last name.
My last name is Crowder.
So Crowd and then Crowders.
Um, but it also embodies who Ibelieve we are in the work that
we're doing.
(39:13):
This is challenging work.
This is uh, you know, workwhere we ourselves have to be
open to is there newpeer-reviewed journals out, new
research out that helps uh usreframe some of our frameworks
that helps us to speak aboutthis differently, where we can
take feedback from our clients.
And so all of that, all of thisis what I consider sort of this
(39:37):
um universe of courageousnessand us defining it regularly,
but also we have the principlesin place internally that we are
asking from our leaders, right?
I don't, I can't ask ourclients to be anything that I'm
unwilling to be.
Right.
And so that's where courageouscrowd comes from.
Jay Johnson (39:58):
I I love it.
It caught my attention.
One of my core values outsideof mastery and independence is
courage.
And I try to show up withcourage even when I don't have
the answers or when I don'tknow, being willing to say I
don't know, and jump into that.
So it really resonated with me,Kim.
Thank you.
Kim, if our audience wanted toget in touch with you, how would
(40:21):
they reach out to you?
Kim Crowder (40:22):
Yeah, one of those things that I mentioned was that
we have these executiveconversations virtually once a
month.
The way that you can get intouch with us, if you'd like to
join that, just DM me onLinkedIn, Kim Crowder.
I'm easy to find on LinkedIn.
You're welcome to follow for alittle bit, take a step back and
see if you want to join.
Uh, but if you already knowimmediately that you want to be
(40:44):
a part of those conversations,they're small, they're intimate,
um, and leaders are reallysharing and being open.
DM me at uh, you know,LinkedIn.
What is it, forward slash KimCrowder?
Jay Johnson (40:57):
Forward slash Kim Crowder.
Yep.
Kim Crowder (40:58):
Yeah, and and we're happy to bring you into that
conversation.
Jay Johnson (41:02):
That's amazing.
Well, I just want to say thankyou because your insight on the
behaviors of leadership and theway that you're approaching, you
know, some of theseorganizational changes.
I know that our audience isunder constant change, just as
you said, whether it's you knowpolitical, whether it's social,
whether it's economical, orwhether it's even technological,
(41:24):
change is just happening sofast nowadays.
And it's one of those thingswhere it sounds to me like
you're having a great impactwith organizations and being
able to leverage thatunderstanding of change, that
understanding of communication,the people, the processes, and
being able to help them navigatethat forward.
(41:44):
So thank you for being here andsharing that with our audience
today, Kim.
Kim Crowder (41:49):
Thanks for having me, Jay.
It was a pleasure.
Jay Johnson (41:51):
Yeah, and thank you, audience, for tuning into
this episode of the TalentForge, where together we are
shaping workforce behaviors.
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Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com