November 7, 2025 • 46 mins
Feeling pulled in every direction, yet determined to lead well? We sit down with Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau—author of "Who’s in Charge?"—to unpack a practical path for impact that doesn’t cost your health or your soul. Drawing on her experience across the European Commission, consulting, and executive coaching, we examine how culture, power, and purpose intersect in real workplaces where speed and pressure never quit.
We start with power. Not the brittle kind that leans on title and control, but smart power: a blend of systems thinking, merging perspectives, authentic grounding, relational fluency, and transformational intent. Energy takes center stage next. We break it into four domains—physical, emotional, mental, spiritual—and show why multitasking is just fast fatigue. Expect tangible resets: slow down to truly slow down, reclaim focus with single-task blocks, and practice “pause and choose” to prevent resentment from draining your tank. Finally, we turn to legacy. A spoken eulogy exercise helps you name what you want to be true about your leadership and life—then work backward to today. Legacy isn’t a plaque on a building; it’s how people remember your presence and the systems you leave stronger.
If this conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with a leader who needs it, and leave a quick review to help others find us. What pillar are you strengthening this week—energy, power, or legacy?
Connect with Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau: https://www.smartpowermethod.com/
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to the Talent Forge, where together we
are shaping workforce behaviors.
Today I'm excited to welcomespecial guest,
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau, whois the author of a recent book,
Who's in Charge?
Which is a book for leaders andentrepreneurs moving beyond
conventional success.
So I'm really excited to diginto this conversation and
(00:22):
welcome you to the show, Dr.
Sylvia.
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (00:25):
Well, thank you, Jay.
Such a pleasure to be on yourshow, which I think is
excellent, and I look forward toour conversation.
Jay Johnson (00:30):
I appreciate it.
So let's get started.
How did you get into thistalent development space and
working with leaders andobviously producing some
incredible thought leadership inthe area?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (00:43):
Well, I I listened to one of your
recent episodes, and I love whatyou said about your your how
you got into it, because it forme it's more or less the same.
I didn't plan to, uh it wasmore by chance.
I um study political science,especially international
relations and security studies.
And I was always very muchinterested in the psychological
(01:06):
aspects of it.
So the communication theory, umuh the the sociology also of
international relations.
And then I my first job was atthe European Commission in
Brussels in developmentcooperation.
And there I got more and moreinterested in first, how does
this institution, the EuropeanCommission, work internally,
(01:26):
like departments uh beingjealous of each other and all
these things that you see inevery organization basically.
And then um, why do someorganizations change and others
don't?
And at that stage, I got reallycurious about that, went into
consulting because I found thatwas more practical than being in
simply in charge ofadministering programs.
(01:48):
And then um I did a training inorganization development, and
part of that was coaching, and Idid a few um career um strategy
programs in the consultancy Iwas in, and that kind of got me
into like into the space betweenconsulting, coaching, HR, and
(02:10):
then uh I had a job offer at theEuropean Investment Bank.
I was in 2003 as careeradvisor, which was like a mix
between career coach andsystemic internal uh um change
agent for like to change thecareer management system, and
that was 2003.
You remember maybe careermanagement was the antecedent to
(02:33):
talent management, and then ata certain stage we went into
talent management.
And Sylvia, can you make aproposal on talent management?
So I worked on that also.
And then um um talentmanagement is very much also
about leadership development,and I was very much interested
in that.
So I got more and more intoleadership coaching, lead
leadership programs, uh, and anda holistic approach to what is
(02:57):
good leadership in order to makean organization successful.
And that's why I'm today.
Jay Johnson (03:03):
That's an awesome story.
And uh I, you know, I do findit interesting how many of us
share the like, I'm here byaccident, but I love being here.
So I my my audience may noteven know this about me, but I
um I am a political sciencejunkie as well.
So I studied a lot of politicalscience movements, campaigns,
(03:27):
and everything from thecommunication side.
And uh, but I never actuallytook a look at the international
aspect of it.
So I I'm curious.
I'd I'd love to even just stickon this for half a minute.
I'd love to So what was it likewith the European Commission?
Because you know in the US, youknow, when you're looking at
some of the political science oranything else, and there's
(03:49):
plenty to look at here, evenwith the two-party system.
But when you start looking atsomething like the European
Union or any of those, you'vegot different countries,
different languages, differentuh different uh philosophies,
different experiential historiesthat are kind of coming
together and engaging with eachother in definitely meaningful
(04:09):
ways.
I've gotten to do training forthe European Union and uh a
couple of the differentcommissions.
I'll actually be heading toLithuania to do some training
for them uh on a on an EU grant.
So um I'm very, very curiouswhat was that experience like in
working with or getting abetter understanding of leaders
from all of these different uhfrom all of these different
(04:31):
cultural backgrounds comingtogether?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (04:34):
I love this question.
Well, um maybe to start with, Igrew up with a very
international mindset.
Uh my grandmother is actuallyfrom St.
Petersburg, Russia, and she wasum but from a family of of
Baltic Germans, huguenots,exactly.
So there was like German,French, blood, etc., in it.
(04:57):
But she spoke um very fluentRussian and she immigrated to um
Germany at like before the theum no at the end of the First Uh
World War.
And um she was a crazy woman,uh very much uh into like she
she basically held court inBerlin, uh knew everyone, etc.
(05:20):
And uh she was a verypassionate European.
She also was a writer.
Um her books were very funny,but her journalism was pretty
good.
And she uh I remember anarticle by her about um like
titled I'm a European.
And that was in the 50s, wherebeing a European was not that
typical.
(05:40):
So I'm very proud of mygrandmother, who was already
European when others didn't knowwhat that is, really.
And so I grew up uh with a veryinternational mindset.
My dad also studied um as oneof the full first Fulbright
students in the US, and then hewent to Paris, and we always had
people from all over the worldvisiting and uh conversations at
(06:01):
dinner, etc.
So our parents basically pushedus to study abroad, um, which I
did.
So I do my studies, I was in inSwitzerland, in the UK, in the
United States.
And uh so it was for me veryclear that I wanted to also have
an international career in somein some way.
Although ending up with theEuropean Commission was also not
(06:23):
planned.
I won't go into that storybecause it would be a longer
one.
But I I arrived at the EuropeanCommission and then I worked on
something that was not EU, butit was international, so beyond
uh the European Union.
And to your question then, inthese institutions, you have
people, very many people like uhlike me who um grew up already
(06:46):
interested in doing something ina broader context, in studying
um foreign languages and wantingto uh leave their own country
to discover the world, etc.
So you have um a workenvironment where people uh are
actually quite open-minded andable to converse.
At the same time, you do havethese cultural differences.
(07:09):
So you have um the Frenchculture, which is, I mean, I'm
going to go into stereotypes,but there's also truth in it.
French culture would be muchmore top-down hierarchical uh
than UK or Scandinavian orGerman culture today.
Um, then there are the um uhthe cultural ways of
(07:31):
communication.
Um German culture, forinstance, is quite low context.
We sit down in a meeting, a bitmaybe like some parts of the
US, sit down in a meeting, let'sstart the meeting.
That's not done inMediterranean countries.
So we have to get to know eachother so we can uh read each
(07:51):
other and take into account howthe other people function.
I still remember a Spanishcolleague making fun of me when
I became emotional.
And you said, Sylvia, you'renot supposed to be emotional,
you're a German.
Jay Johnson (08:04):
That's funny.
I well, I've I I've trained inGermany a number of times, and I
was with a colleague who Idon't think was prepared for the
level of directness, but I loveit.
Like personally, that is sorefreshing because there's you
know exactly where you stand.
There's no issue with havingdebate on topics or discussions,
(08:28):
and I think it's such apowerful way to navigate some of
the learning environments.
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (08:34):
Yeah.
And it's great at the sametime, it has its weaknesses
because sometimes, I mean, weare all human beings.
So if we don't take intoaccount that there is another
person uh across the table whois maybe having a bad day and we
didn't even ask how they theyare feeling, um, then whatever
(08:54):
we're doing uh is taking off ona bad foot.
So um like a little bit of thathigh context, like hello, how
are you doing?
Um feeling into the person canhelp indeed.
Jay Johnson (09:09):
Absolutely.
Well, I I love that I love thatexperience because and you
know, before we kind of shift,and I've got a great way to kind
of segue this into some of thetopics that we're talking about.
You know, from somebody who'sfrom the United States, there
was not a huge premium onlearning other languages or on
travel or anything.
(09:29):
I think that's changing in ourculture.
I think the younger generationshave much higher uh needs for
exploring and kind of seekingoutside of the borders, which is
great.
But I was brought into sort ofan international mindset.
I I grew into an internationalmindset.
And I did that from anorganization that I belong to
called Junior ChamberInternational.
(09:51):
And uh got suspended.
So I've now trained in about 40countries, but I got to travel
27 of those countries throughthis organization, which is an
incredible learning opportunity.
One of the things that I foundto be really powerful was
honestly, in some cases, justsitting back with some humility
and really kind of trying totake in and understanding.
(10:15):
And you said that sobeautifully of like, hey, people
are there to learn when theyhave that international mindset,
they have more of this sort oflike openness to understanding,
to being curious.
I think that's such a necessaryskill for both leaders and
behaviors in a workplace,because in a workplace we're
gonna have different cultures.
(10:35):
Could you maybe talk for just amoment?
What are some of the ways thathelped you stay curious in some
of those situations where it wasmore about bringing in an
understanding of the differentculture or maybe even just
getting to know people thatmaybe had a different
perspective?
Could you talk to that for justa moment?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (10:57):
Well, it it's the necessity.
If you work in this kind ofenvironment, uh whether it's um
in an international organizationor multi like multinational,
like big company, it would bethe same.
Or if you are in a smallercompany and you want to sell
something abroad, uh, you willbe more successful if you
(11:17):
understand uh the subtleties ofthe other culture or cultures.
If you come like bulldozing in,then uh you're not going to be
successful as successful.
Maybe in the short term, youbecause you have the power,
because your product isfantastic, etc.
But uh you will not be able tosustain that success.
(11:41):
And so what I learned um maybewith my upbringing already, like
it's a good thing to be curiousand understand.
But uh then also sometimes Ididn't understand because yes, I
was educated with thatcuriosity, but it in a German
context, like you grew up inMunich, um, with from a northern
(12:01):
German uh family, uh northernGermans are in particular quite
square.
And uh so I was surprised atfirst to see, like in Brussels
at the European Commission, theItalians and French and Spanish
people navigating in a verydifferent way.
And uh it happened to really umplay to my personal ways.
(12:24):
I'm more of a creative and andopen-minded person, so I loved
it, but I had to to learn how todo this because I I was not
trained, so to speak, to do it.
Um and then it's so like it'sit's really a question like I
you need to do it in order to besuccessful.
And then um you you simply openyour eyes and and listen and
(12:47):
learn, and you make mistakes.
I mean, I, for instance, I cantell you about one mistake, uh
which is cultural, but alsosimply um a bulldozing question.
I was a young manager, he wasalready in consulting, and I um
had a local manager in theproject, and uh he had submitted
(13:09):
like sent me the draft of theinception report of the pro
program, and it was really weak.
Um, but rather than finding outwhat is like what is this
problem, uh, what's going onhere, I was focusing on that
like a bit low context.
This report has to be right.
And um, I first had a call withhim, sent him a mail, and then
(13:33):
I flew down to to the locationand we worked for a while.
And then gradually I found outI'm I'm hammering too much.
And it was like short before hestepped out of the program, I
really took a step back tounderstand, oh my God, he needs
my support and he needs mypersonal support.
He needs me to listen to himand to give him the feeling that
(13:56):
he's not alone because writingis not his strength.
Um, and he has problems withone of his uh senior people in
the in the program who's notpulling his weight.
So, how can I, as the director,help him um like manage that
person?
All these things.
Uh, it's it's a junior managerfailure that I had there, but it
(14:18):
was also a failing to listen,failing to understand what's
really going on, and that isculture.
And it's also, and then we'recoming really to who's in charge
and and smart power.
It's not by bulldozing our waythrough.
I mean, I have the power, I cansack him because he's not doing
the right job.
But what's in it for me to sackhim?
(14:39):
I need to uh make the projectwork.
So I will use the best of histalents and combine it with the
best of someone else's talentand support him where he he
can't be so strong.
Jay Johnson (14:51):
Such a powerful story because I think that all
of us are in differentsituations where maybe we're uh,
you know, we're so focused onthe product that we forget about
the other context that may havecreated those conditions and
actually approaching that andlistening, as you said.
And, you know, I really lovedwhat you brought out there in
(15:12):
terms of your, you know, thatthat vulnerability in the story
of like, hey, here's where I wasat, and this is what I was
thinking, and this is how you'veshaped and sort of moved to a
different perspective.
And I think that that's sopowerful because our world is is
continuing to get even moreglobal.
I mean, you and I are indifferent countries right now,
(15:33):
different time zones, havingthis beautiful conversation.
And that's where I want to leadit into your book.
So, who's in charge leadingwith real power and creating an
impact in a chaotic world?
The world has never been morechaotic.
And in your book, you identifykind of like three pillars
energy, power, and legacy.
(15:54):
I'd love for you to give us alittle bit of a give us a little
bit of an introduction.
Why did why those threepillars?
And I'm not gonna ask you toanswer the question of who's in
charge.
I'm gonna encourage theaudience to go source that and
find that.
But let's talk about thosethree pillars.
Why energy, power, and legacy?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (16:13):
Well, thank you.
Um the book really comes frommy experience um both as uh like
already in earlier years,researching power in
international relations, andthen uh like experiencing and
being part of power in um in thecorporate world, in
international institutions, uh,in consulting, etc.
(16:36):
Um, so that is one thing,rethinking power, because very
often the way that power isunderstood is about force and
control, and that it's reallylike taking it in a very limited
way.
We are lacking the full extentof power if we have that
traditional view.
So that was power.
And then there is energybecause um I struggled with my
(16:58):
energy, like having more to doand lots to do, so that I wasn't
even able to take a breather inbetween one and the next.
And I think most people whowork today um in interesting
jobs uh have a similar problem.
And I saw also then later whenI was in HR supporting our
(17:20):
leaders and as as a as aleadership coach, that um most
senior leaders and also middlemanagers are suffering from the
same.
Jay Johnson (17:30):
So like being under immense pressure to deliver, um
being passionate to deliveralso, and having to find out how
they can do not only more withless, but um have an impact and
not lose their lives, uh, in thesense of not necessarily dying,
(17:54):
but not living a full life, butsocially dying, or you know,
the the death of the family oruh death of their hobbies, their
joy, their love.
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (18:06):
And that's where then legacy came
in, which was like, yes, I Iwant to sustain myself, I want
to have as much energy availableas possible.
Um, and so how can I reregenerate myself?
And how do I understand humanenergy which is very different
from engine energy?
And then how do I um how do Ihave a life that I really want
(18:31):
to live?
And that's the legacy part.
Um because I personally alsohad um experiences where it came
to me, oh my god, if I dietoday, is this the life that I
really wanted to live or issomething missing there?
And from there I was thinking,okay, so then now how do I make
(18:54):
it the life that I really wantto live?
And that's what I wish foreveryone.
To not think about that when weare on our deathbed, um, or
when we are like 90 years oldand too weak to really change
anything about it, but to haveit as a companion in our life to
think, well, if today was mylast last day, um how would I
(19:16):
feel about my life?
And from that perspective, howwill I shape my life tomorrow?
Jay Johnson (19:23):
So powerful when we when we start thinking about
that, like how is my future selfgoing to perceive this?
Or you know, what is that gonnabe?
So I I really love that.
All right, there's a lot tounpack there, Dr.
Sylvia, and I have so manyquestions and and thoughts.
So now uh let's let's go to thepower.
Let's start with power, becauseyou you gave a powerful story
of hey, I was the manager or Iwas the junior manager, and I
(19:46):
had the authority and the power.
And I do think a lot of peoplesort of misconstrue the the term
power.
Um and this is coming from uhso uh again, I'm just exploring
a bunch of my old past studies,but I loved philosophy.
I loved digging into MichelFoucault and uh Friedrich
(20:06):
Nietzsche and understanding likethe sources of power and how we
perceive power.
And, you know, we've all heardsome of the different terms.
Power abhor a vacuum and youknow, step into your power.
When we think about power, andI love that you've broken that
up into sort of like the strongand dominant power versus maybe
(20:29):
a little bit more of the softpower, if we were to even think
international relations, right?
How can we as a manager, whatcan we look for or what could we
be thinking about to reallyexude that softer side of power,
that influence that comes toplay?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (20:47):
Yeah.
So um I really like using theterm smart power, because then
people don't conf get confusedabout that there might be a
difference, like an oppositionbetween that strong traditional
power, which is about force andcontrol, and then there's the
soft power, which is nice, butit doesn't really achieve a lot
(21:08):
because it's all aboutcollaboration and sometimes it
doesn't work because if we'rejust nice, I mean, then we can't
succeed against these umstrong-headed people.
And I think it's very importantto understand that we can be
very powerful um being smart,and that includes, like in my
(21:28):
book, I speak about the power oflove, which doesn't mean hugs
and kisses, it means the powerof creativity.
So I don't come from fear, uh,and therefore I have to take
things from other people becauseif I don't take it first, they
won't take it.
And uh so I'm I'm in constantpanic mode and I have to oppress
(21:49):
in order not to be seen asweak, etc.
If I come from love in thesense of creativity, then I will
do things because I believe inthem, because I um uh I I see
that we can create a betteroutcome.
So there is a positive creativeforce in it, and um it's much
more powerful than like beingreactive in this sense.
(22:13):
And um then SMART uh means alsoum that for instance that that
I can think in terms of systems.
Um and SMART, by the way, is anacronym systems, merging, uh
authentic, personal, relational,and transformational.
So S-M-A-R-T.
(22:33):
Um and systemic is really superimportant when we um look at
the world that is today.
Like in the past, we couldmaybe be successful in our
careers only knowing our ownthing and working in our own
little corner.
Today, especially as managers,we have to see what's happening
(22:56):
left and right, or as asentrepreneurs, we have to see
what the market looks like.
We have to be more like lookingto the future, into the
distribution systems, into uh uminto the the the the the the
customer needs and how they areshaping into the future and all
these things.
Um so the systems thinking isvery important for our power,
(23:17):
because power doesn't mean todominate.
Because if I'm just sitting onmy power, that is I'm
dominating, in the end I don'tachieve much.
The thing about power is that Ido something with it, no.
Um and that's like I thinkthere are people who like to sit
on the power because they theyare motivated really by feeling
(23:39):
the most powerful or byaccumulating money or something.
But I'm I'm not writing andworking for these people because
um it's difficult for me um toactually uh help them.
So I really focus on the peoplewho are passionate, who want to
(23:59):
make a difference, who want toum um to really achieve
something.
So do something with thatpower.
Jay Johnson (24:08):
It's it seems to me, it seems to me that I and I
really like this because I thinkit fits incredibly well with
the way that I think about someof the different behaviors is
it's almost this balance, right?
Like you have to have a balanceof being able to shift in the
right moment at the right timebetween, hey, this is a place
where I need to exercise alittle bit of that hard power, a
(24:30):
little bit of that authority,or, you know, hey, uh maybe it's
maybe it's uh status, maybeit's title, maybe whatever that
is.
But then there's other placesthat we need to shift more
towards that sort of softerinfluence and collaboration.
And I really like the idea ofsmart power because it does give
us that space of saying, hey,we're making a choice in what
(24:54):
type of power we're trying toexude on another person or in
the world or on our workplace oron our career, et cetera.
Can you maybe talk for just abrief moment on how do we how do
we get better at making thechoice of where it's appropriate
to maybe lean into some more ofthat soft power or maybe lean
(25:15):
into that hard power to be ableto take action with the power
that we're given?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Lieb (25:20):
Fantastic question.
What I can see, and we startstarted talking about initially
about the the chaos in in um intoday's world, uh, it's becoming
more and more difficult for allof us to be calm and collected
and uh make good decisionsbecause like things are flying
(25:41):
left, right, and center, um, andit often seems that we're in
the middle of a hurricane.
And that is why my work with myclients very often is about um
like the inner leadership.
It's like in the smart powermodel, it's the A, the authentic
personal power.
Like how can we be grounded inourselves, uh, which includes
(26:04):
very much the body also, groundin ourselves and our values, um,
so that when something happens,we have a solid uh foundation
on which to base the decision,first of all.
And second, we don't get umoverexcited about something
(26:25):
because we will not project orwe will not make assumptions, or
when we make assumptions, weare aware that we are making
this assumption.
So we are not having a filmrunning, this guy is doing it
because they want to kill.
No, uh, they are doingsomething, and what they're
doing is not conducive to theoutcome we want to achieve.
(26:45):
So we have to have aconversation, and if need be, I
have to stop this.
But I'm not going to take itpersonal because um maybe he's
taking it or they are taking itpersonal, but I do not need to
take it personal.
I'm focused on the outcome.
I will see the person as aperson with their issues and uh
dilemmas, etc.
But I will not get enraged orum um like into a conflict mode
(27:13):
because that's where the whatyou would call the hard power,
um, like the force and control,where it often goes astray,
where we we don't only put ourfoot down, which is good, but we
do it uh while hurting someoneor while using words that really
don't any add anything to theimprovement of human society.
Jay Johnson (27:36):
We see that a little too often, don't we?
So, no, I I I think that'sbeautifully stated and a lot of
great takeaways there.
I uh let's shift to the energyquestion.
And you know, this is somethingthat I've I've passionately
studied.
I would say for at least thelast five years, since the dawn
of COVID, I have reallydedicated a lot of my research,
(27:57):
time, and efforts into burnout.
In fact, I'm actually launchinguh our next iteration of our
boot camp this afternoon.
So this is like perfect timing.
You you bring up energy, and itseems that in our sort of like
chaotic world, everything istrying to draw energy.
(28:17):
And whether that's social mediadrawing our energy, whether
that's politics, whether that'suh conversations with friends,
or you know, you even see uh,especially in the workplace,
doing more with less and uh sortof like this this absolute need
to run at a thousand kilometersa mile, you know, a thousand
(28:40):
kilometers a minute.
How do we look at energy maybedifferently?
Is there is there some thingsthat we can think about in terms
of our own energy, our ownenergy depletion, our own energy
renewals?
What are some of your thoughtson that?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (28:57):
Well, first of all, the the speed and
being um often in the in thecontrol of our um gadgets is
very energy draining.
So the constant running, andI've I've been there myself, and
sometimes I'm still there whenI'm getting not only I have to
do a lot, but I'm gettingoverexcited because I'm
(29:20):
passionate about it, and thenI'm my my mind is going like at
a thousand miles per hour.
Jay Johnson (29:26):
Uh and that's I see you, I feel you on that one.
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (29:29):
I know that that's a lot of fun,
but it's energetically it's notvery efficient.
So um it's very wholesome tohave some practices to bring our
nervous system down to ahealthy level from time to time
because the world is kind of uhpushing us to run.
So we have to have a practiceto um to calm down from time to
(29:52):
time, and then we uh we can dopretty good.
I mean, that's what what I domyself, and I see that that
works because the world is fast.
And it's good to be able to dofast, but in order to like we do
not have to be fast all thetime.
I mean, um, a man of mine, hehe he uses the phrase slow down
to speed up.
And I I challenge him once Ilike slow down to speed up, but
(30:16):
then we are again too muchspeeding up.
How about slow down to slowdown?
Um, because uh slowing down inthis hyperactive world is a
value in itself.
And then we can we can sprintwhen it's needed, but we don't
have to have a constant um athousand miles per hour tempo.
(30:36):
No, when when it's needed.
It's like I'll give you thatexample.
My my younger daughter, sheplayed soccer for many years,
and I saw her in the field andshe wasn't always running.
And first I thought, well,she's a bit lazy, but then it
occurred to me she's smartbecause she runs when she has to
run.
Jay Johnson (30:52):
Serving.
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (30:54):
And I think that's a very good image
for us in any sport.
So when it serves to run, thenwe should run, but not all the
time.
Jay Johnson (31:03):
I love to slow ourselves down, you know, and
that's such a great analogy,too, because you never see one
person just running back andforth with no purpose in any
sport.
They do.
They ex- they they use theirexplosive power when they need
to, they take that conservationapproach when they're sort of
when they have that moment.
(31:23):
I that's a great analogy.
I never actually thought ofthat.
So that's that's beautifullystated.
When we're thinking aboutenergy, and and this is
something that I have found tobe found to be true in in the
burnout research that we'vedoing, is burnout is actually
not about the amount of workthat we're doing.
(31:45):
Burnout is much more about howwe feel about the work, the
quality of the work, the purposeof the work, or whether or not
somebody is just dumping work onour desk, that resentment that
we may have is actually one ofthe contributing factors that
depletes our energy.
(32:05):
And that frustration, thatisolation, that resentment can
just, I mean, just bleed out ourenergy.
Do you have any suggestions orthoughts when it comes to, you
know, in leadership, whetheryou're at the top of the chart,
and I got into entrepreneurshipbecause I thought I'm not gonna
have a boss.
(32:26):
I love being independent.
And then I realized that everyclient is a boss and every
worker is a boss, right?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (32:33):
And we are our own boss, very, very
severe boss.
Jay Johnson (32:37):
So we we all have these different aspects where
maybe we are feeling a littleresentment or frustration or
isolation.
How can a good leader take astep back from that and really
kind of rethink well, what am Idoing with this energy?
What am I doing with thisspace?
And how is this serving me?
(32:58):
Do you have any suggestions orthoughts for those leaders and
entrepreneurs that may findthemselves feeling that uh
energy depletion from resentmentor from that emotional sort of
that emotional degradation?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (33:12):
Yeah, very good, very good.
Um the emotional part issomething that we can really
control when we are aware of it.
So that for us humans, thereare actually four main parts of
energy, which is our physicalenergy, the emotional energy,
the mental energy, and thespiritual energy.
(33:33):
Uh, then there are a fewextras, but these like it's good
to start with these four.
So the the physical, most of usof us know about like eat well,
sleep, uh uh, hydrate, do somesports, etc.
So I won't talk about that.
But the emotional is really,really important.
And it's about uh, forinstance, being aware of what is
(33:55):
going on inside me.
So one of our company doctorsonce joked to me and said, Well,
everyone here says they areirritated.
But they don't have any otheremotions, like they they they
can't pinpoint what it is.
So the first start is actually,what's going on?
It's like, first of all,realizing I'm having an emotion
(34:15):
here because many people are notaware.
They're just like they get aheadache or something, or they
they they they get tired, theyor they should start screaming
at someone, mostly at their cator their wife or their children
or something.
Yeah, but it's like what isactually going on?
And then uh like the this verysimple simplified approach is to
(34:36):
learn that we can pause andchoose.
So our reaction is it never hasto be a reaction, it can be a
choice.
And that will make us much moresuccessful human beings and
leaders when we have thatability to feel, to be aware,
(34:58):
and uh to pause and to choose.
And let me say like one veryimportant thing there again is
the body, because uh we feel ouremotions only because we have a
body, otherwise we wouldn'tfeel them.
So to to allow ourselves tofeel into our body and uh to
know that this is a superprecious instrument to uh to
(35:20):
feel what's going on and to usethat.
That's really, really, reallyhelpful.
The other part which is likelinked to emotional, but it's
actually mental, is our umability to focus.
And there we come to thegadgets again, so not to be like
multitasking, which by the waydoesn't exist.
(35:40):
Actually, it's a very like it'sa layered um um like task
hopping, actually, when we thinkwe are multitasking, and it's
it creates a huge fatigue.
Um so that's uh that that'swhat I would say, like really
think about uh how you can bemore conscious of your feelings
so that they don't run you, butyou can make choices and also
(36:03):
not only choices on yourbehavior, but what is going on
here?
And do I have to interpret itthat way or do I have a choice?
I give you an example of my ownlife.
I once um wanted to have aconversation with my director
about a program I wasresponsible for, and they had uh
postponed the start, and I wasgetting really um like
(36:25):
frustrated.
I was frustrated about it, andhe said, Well, um, it's not
going to happen until um threemonths or something.
And that was on Friday evening,and I stormed out of the office
more or less, and with thisfeeling, poor me, poor me, this
is a horrible organization, andnow I'm going to have a horrible
weekend.
(36:46):
And then two hours later, I wasthinking, Sylvia, now, do you
want to have a horrible weekend?
Uh no, it's actually not worthit.
So, what perspective can I takeon this and what action can I
take to change this?
So I felt like I do not have tomake myself a victim of a
horrible organization.
I, Sylvia, have the power topropose a meeting with my
(37:10):
director on Monday to say, let'stalk about that, because I
believe it's really importantthat we start earlier and I take
the responsibility for that.
And then let's see.
And with that feeling, I wasokay, I I'm in charge, by the
way, who's in charge?
I'm in charge.
Uh, and I will takeresponsibility because
afterwards people might say,Well, Sylvia, it was your fault.
(37:31):
You're wrong.
But that taking responsibilityfor what was going on really
helped me to feel good about it.
So I had a great weekend.
Monday we had a talk.
Um, and luckily he agreed withme.
But even if he hadn't agreed, Iwould have felt better because
I took responsibility and notlike, oh my God, they're so bad,
(37:54):
they don't understand me, etc.
Jay Johnson (37:57):
But I I love that because there's so much, there's
so much depth there.
And and audience, if you didn'thear it, first of all, naming
the emotion, getting anunderstanding, being aware of it
and saying, all right, this iswhere I'm at.
But I love how you transitionedout of like the victim
mentality of woe is me to like,no, actually, I have power, I
(38:17):
have agency, I can step intothis and create a different
pathway.
And how powerful, because sooften we get stuck in our
emotions and we just ruminate onit.
So being able to kind of takethat step back and say, no, I'm
I'm gonna own my weekend, I'mgonna have a great time.
I'm choosing to do somethingabout this because I I do
(38:41):
believe it's the action.
You know, burnout is just anearly warning system.
It's telling us something'soff.
And when we make the choice totake action, that's where we
start to see the relief of thosesymptoms or that relief of the
frustration or anything else,like, okay, I've got a plan, I'm
going forward.
So, in speaking of goingforward, and I know that we're
(39:04):
we're nearly out of time here,but I think it's important to
bring some awareness, thislegacy concept that is that
forward thinking, like, how am Igoing to be remembered?
What's the purpose that I'mserving?
Can you talk to us just alittle bit about that pillar,
legacy?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (39:19):
Yeah.
So um, what I've seen veryoften, um, especially as a as a
coach to senior leaders, is thatsomeone's a very successful
manager, leader.
And when they talk thenprivately to me, there's a lot
that they're not proud of or nothappy about.
(39:41):
Either they are they have lostlike the connection with their
family, uh, they do don't do thethings that they love anymore,
or they are um they've become aperson that they don't want to
be.
And um I've seen that uh sooften that that was one reason
why I said, well, there is thispart.
If I speak to leaders, whatcould help them?
(40:02):
There's the energy, there'sunderstanding power, and then
there's also give um a meaningto your life.
So that at the end of the dayuh or a few days, you will be at
peace with yourself.
But if you do that now, you'reat peace and thriving already
today.
(40:22):
And then there's a personalstory.
I had uh breast cancer in 2010now, that was a like wake-up
call for me to say, Hey Sylvia,uh, death is not a theory.
It actually happens.
Um and then uh it was alsothrough a very interesting
experience I had in my actingtraining.
Uh was later on, where we diduh a eulogy exercise, which is
(40:46):
also in the book.
Uh, and we did it um not onlyin writing, but speaking.
And I connected really with thethings that I want to do in my
life, that I still want to do inmy life, and realized that's
what I'm passionate about, but Ihave not yet done these things.
So I better get going.
(41:07):
And um again, uh the end of ourlives is not a theory, it kind
of happens to all of us.
So if we bring that, when webring that into our
consciousness, it's not beingmorose to say, oh, talking about
dead all the time, but to makedeath death a friendly companion
that actually makes us, helpsus focus on our on what's good
(41:32):
in our life and what we want tocreate in our life and what we
want to be remembered for,because this legacy is not about
having a building named afterour name uh or making lots of
money.
Um, we can also be proud ofthat.
But then also having a reason.
Why does that make me proud?
Could be a very good reason.
(41:52):
Uh, but what is my why behindthat?
And then I think for manypeople, what is sometimes um
comes into focus only very lateuh is how will other people
remember me?
And to to put that in focusearlier on, I think is so
precious for all of us.
Jay Johnson (42:14):
That I love that because we I do believe that we
as a as a species, we we oftenavoid conversations about death
because it's uncomfortable,there's uncertainty, there's a
finality to it.
But you know, the the and I'mtroubling sourcing the the
author, and I'm uh it'll come tome before we finish.
(42:37):
If not, I'll put it into shownotes.
But the concept of dying beforewe die and really kind of
exploring like what does thatmean?
What does my existence mean?
How does that go?
That can be such a powerfulmotivator for us to put in
perspective the things that weneed to prioritize.
Because if if we just followevery social media thread or
(43:00):
anything else, we're probablynot going to be really proud of
that at the end of our days.
But when we do think about theimpact and the legacy that we
are going to leave behind, thatcan really generate some
powerful positive behaviors andmaybe help us avoid some of
those ones that are holding usback.
So I really appreciate that.
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Li (43:20):
Absolutely.
And then it links back topurpose because a lot of the
work that I do and that thatthat drives me is connected to
purpose.
So if I have that red thread, Idon't need to, or I I will not
want to check Facebook and thecat videos all the time because
there's no purpose in that.
So I will be more the personwho who will um create something
(43:43):
myself rather than being ledand driven by random things that
are happening out there becauseI have a purpose.
Jay Johnson (43:50):
Which probably helps you maintain energy and
probably helps you step intoyour power.
So I can see that these threethings are really powerfully
related to each other.
Dr.
Sylvia, this has been anincredible conversation.
I really appreciate you takingthe time.
If our audience wanted to getin touch with you, how would
they do so?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (44:09):
Very simple.
Uh, I'm on LinkedIn, so my nameis Sylvia Rodolibina, and then
uh through my website also,which is smartpowerweb uh
smartpowermethod.com.
Jay Johnson (44:21):
Awesome.
And we'll make sure that's inthe show notes.
So this is again, I reallyappreciate the work that you're
doing.
It it obviously we share somepassion and some alignment on
this.
So thank you for bringing yourperspective, experience, and
stories to the talentforge.
I really appreciate you.
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (44:40):
Well, thank you, Jay.
It was a wonderfulconversation.
I really loved it.
Jay Johnson (44:44):
I'll look forward to future ones.
And uh thank you, audience, fortuning into this episode of the
Talent Forge, where together weare shaping workforce
behaviors.
Welcome to the Talent Forge, where together we
are shaping workforce behaviors.
Today I'm excited to welcomespecial guest,
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau, whois the author of a recent book,
Who's in Charge?
Which is a book for leaders andentrepreneurs moving beyond
conventional success.
So I'm really excited to diginto this conversation and
(00:22):
welcome you to the show, Dr.
Sylvia.
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (00:25):
Well, thank you, Jay.
Such a pleasure to be on yourshow, which I think is
excellent, and I look forward toour conversation.
Jay Johnson (00:30):
I appreciate it.
So let's get started.
How did you get into thistalent development space and
working with leaders andobviously producing some
incredible thought leadership inthe area?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (00:43):
Well, I I listened to one of your
recent episodes, and I love whatyou said about your your how
you got into it, because it forme it's more or less the same.
I didn't plan to, uh it wasmore by chance.
I um study political science,especially international
relations and security studies.
And I was always very muchinterested in the psychological
(01:06):
aspects of it.
So the communication theory, umuh the the sociology also of
international relations.
And then I my first job was atthe European Commission in
Brussels in developmentcooperation.
And there I got more and moreinterested in first, how does
this institution, the EuropeanCommission, work internally,
(01:26):
like departments uh beingjealous of each other and all
these things that you see inevery organization basically.
And then um, why do someorganizations change and others
don't?
And at that stage, I got reallycurious about that, went into
consulting because I found thatwas more practical than being in
simply in charge ofadministering programs.
(01:48):
And then um I did a training inorganization development, and
part of that was coaching, and Idid a few um career um strategy
programs in the consultancy Iwas in, and that kind of got me
into like into the space betweenconsulting, coaching, HR, and
(02:10):
then uh I had a job offer at theEuropean Investment Bank.
I was in 2003 as careeradvisor, which was like a mix
between career coach andsystemic internal uh um change
agent for like to change thecareer management system, and
that was 2003.
You remember maybe careermanagement was the antecedent to
(02:33):
talent management, and then ata certain stage we went into
talent management.
And Sylvia, can you make aproposal on talent management?
So I worked on that also.
And then um um talentmanagement is very much also
about leadership development,and I was very much interested
in that.
So I got more and more intoleadership coaching, lead
leadership programs, uh, and anda holistic approach to what is
(02:57):
good leadership in order to makean organization successful.
And that's why I'm today.
Jay Johnson (03:03):
That's an awesome story.
And uh I, you know, I do findit interesting how many of us
share the like, I'm here byaccident, but I love being here.
So I my my audience may noteven know this about me, but I
um I am a political sciencejunkie as well.
So I studied a lot of politicalscience movements, campaigns,
(03:27):
and everything from thecommunication side.
And uh, but I never actuallytook a look at the international
aspect of it.
So I I'm curious.
I'd I'd love to even just stickon this for half a minute.
I'd love to So what was it likewith the European Commission?
Because you know in the US, youknow, when you're looking at
some of the political science oranything else, and there's
(03:49):
plenty to look at here, evenwith the two-party system.
But when you start looking atsomething like the European
Union or any of those, you'vegot different countries,
different languages, differentuh different uh philosophies,
different experiential historiesthat are kind of coming
together and engaging with eachother in definitely meaningful
(04:09):
ways.
I've gotten to do training forthe European Union and uh a
couple of the differentcommissions.
I'll actually be heading toLithuania to do some training
for them uh on a on an EU grant.
So um I'm very, very curiouswhat was that experience like in
working with or getting abetter understanding of leaders
from all of these different uhfrom all of these different
(04:31):
cultural backgrounds comingtogether?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (04:34):
I love this question.
Well, um maybe to start with, Igrew up with a very
international mindset.
Uh my grandmother is actuallyfrom St.
Petersburg, Russia, and she wasum but from a family of of
Baltic Germans, huguenots,exactly.
So there was like German,French, blood, etc., in it.
(04:57):
But she spoke um very fluentRussian and she immigrated to um
Germany at like before the theum no at the end of the First Uh
World War.
And um she was a crazy woman,uh very much uh into like she
she basically held court inBerlin, uh knew everyone, etc.
(05:20):
And uh she was a verypassionate European.
She also was a writer.
Um her books were very funny,but her journalism was pretty
good.
And she uh I remember anarticle by her about um like
titled I'm a European.
And that was in the 50s, wherebeing a European was not that
typical.
(05:40):
So I'm very proud of mygrandmother, who was already
European when others didn't knowwhat that is, really.
And so I grew up uh with a veryinternational mindset.
My dad also studied um as oneof the full first Fulbright
students in the US, and then hewent to Paris, and we always had
people from all over the worldvisiting and uh conversations at
(06:01):
dinner, etc.
So our parents basically pushedus to study abroad, um, which I
did.
So I do my studies, I was in inSwitzerland, in the UK, in the
United States.
And uh so it was for me veryclear that I wanted to also have
an international career in somein some way.
Although ending up with theEuropean Commission was also not
(06:23):
planned.
I won't go into that storybecause it would be a longer
one.
But I I arrived at the EuropeanCommission and then I worked on
something that was not EU, butit was international, so beyond
uh the European Union.
And to your question then, inthese institutions, you have
people, very many people like uhlike me who um grew up already
(06:46):
interested in doing something ina broader context, in studying
um foreign languages and wantingto uh leave their own country
to discover the world, etc.
So you have um a workenvironment where people uh are
actually quite open-minded andable to converse.
At the same time, you do havethese cultural differences.
(07:09):
So you have um the Frenchculture, which is, I mean, I'm
going to go into stereotypes,but there's also truth in it.
French culture would be muchmore top-down hierarchical uh
than UK or Scandinavian orGerman culture today.
Um, then there are the um uhthe cultural ways of
(07:31):
communication.
Um German culture, forinstance, is quite low context.
We sit down in a meeting, a bitmaybe like some parts of the
US, sit down in a meeting, let'sstart the meeting.
That's not done inMediterranean countries.
So we have to get to know eachother so we can uh read each
(07:51):
other and take into account howthe other people function.
I still remember a Spanishcolleague making fun of me when
I became emotional.
And you said, Sylvia, you'renot supposed to be emotional,
you're a German.
Jay Johnson (08:04):
That's funny.
I well, I've I I've trained inGermany a number of times, and I
was with a colleague who Idon't think was prepared for the
level of directness, but I loveit.
Like personally, that is sorefreshing because there's you
know exactly where you stand.
There's no issue with havingdebate on topics or discussions,
(08:28):
and I think it's such apowerful way to navigate some of
the learning environments.
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (08:34):
Yeah.
And it's great at the sametime, it has its weaknesses
because sometimes, I mean, weare all human beings.
So if we don't take intoaccount that there is another
person uh across the table whois maybe having a bad day and we
didn't even ask how they theyare feeling, um, then whatever
(08:54):
we're doing uh is taking off ona bad foot.
So um like a little bit of thathigh context, like hello, how
are you doing?
Um feeling into the person canhelp indeed.
Jay Johnson (09:09):
Absolutely.
Well, I I love that I love thatexperience because and you
know, before we kind of shift,and I've got a great way to kind
of segue this into some of thetopics that we're talking about.
You know, from somebody who'sfrom the United States, there
was not a huge premium onlearning other languages or on
travel or anything.
(09:29):
I think that's changing in ourculture.
I think the younger generationshave much higher uh needs for
exploring and kind of seekingoutside of the borders, which is
great.
But I was brought into sort ofan international mindset.
I I grew into an internationalmindset.
And I did that from anorganization that I belong to
called Junior ChamberInternational.
(09:51):
And uh got suspended.
So I've now trained in about 40countries, but I got to travel
27 of those countries throughthis organization, which is an
incredible learning opportunity.
One of the things that I foundto be really powerful was
honestly, in some cases, justsitting back with some humility
and really kind of trying totake in and understanding.
(10:15):
And you said that sobeautifully of like, hey, people
are there to learn when theyhave that international mindset,
they have more of this sort oflike openness to understanding,
to being curious.
I think that's such a necessaryskill for both leaders and
behaviors in a workplace,because in a workplace we're
gonna have different cultures.
(10:35):
Could you maybe talk for just amoment?
What are some of the ways thathelped you stay curious in some
of those situations where it wasmore about bringing in an
understanding of the differentculture or maybe even just
getting to know people thatmaybe had a different
perspective?
Could you talk to that for justa moment?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (10:57):
Well, it it's the necessity.
If you work in this kind ofenvironment, uh whether it's um
in an international organizationor multi like multinational,
like big company, it would bethe same.
Or if you are in a smallercompany and you want to sell
something abroad, uh, you willbe more successful if you
(11:17):
understand uh the subtleties ofthe other culture or cultures.
If you come like bulldozing in,then uh you're not going to be
successful as successful.
Maybe in the short term, youbecause you have the power,
because your product isfantastic, etc.
But uh you will not be able tosustain that success.
(11:41):
And so what I learned um maybewith my upbringing already, like
it's a good thing to be curiousand understand.
But uh then also sometimes Ididn't understand because yes, I
was educated with thatcuriosity, but it in a German
context, like you grew up inMunich, um, with from a northern
(12:01):
German uh family, uh northernGermans are in particular quite
square.
And uh so I was surprised atfirst to see, like in Brussels
at the European Commission, theItalians and French and Spanish
people navigating in a verydifferent way.
And uh it happened to really umplay to my personal ways.
(12:24):
I'm more of a creative and andopen-minded person, so I loved
it, but I had to to learn how todo this because I I was not
trained, so to speak, to do it.
Um and then it's so like it'sit's really a question like I
you need to do it in order to besuccessful.
And then um you you simply openyour eyes and and listen and
(12:47):
learn, and you make mistakes.
I mean, I, for instance, I cantell you about one mistake, uh
which is cultural, but alsosimply um a bulldozing question.
I was a young manager, he wasalready in consulting, and I um
had a local manager in theproject, and uh he had submitted
(13:09):
like sent me the draft of theinception report of the pro
program, and it was really weak.
Um, but rather than finding outwhat is like what is this
problem, uh, what's going onhere, I was focusing on that
like a bit low context.
This report has to be right.
And um, I first had a call withhim, sent him a mail, and then
(13:33):
I flew down to to the locationand we worked for a while.
And then gradually I found outI'm I'm hammering too much.
And it was like short before hestepped out of the program, I
really took a step back tounderstand, oh my God, he needs
my support and he needs mypersonal support.
He needs me to listen to himand to give him the feeling that
(13:56):
he's not alone because writingis not his strength.
Um, and he has problems withone of his uh senior people in
the in the program who's notpulling his weight.
So, how can I, as the director,help him um like manage that
person?
All these things.
Uh, it's it's a junior managerfailure that I had there, but it
(14:18):
was also a failing to listen,failing to understand what's
really going on, and that isculture.
And it's also, and then we'recoming really to who's in charge
and and smart power.
It's not by bulldozing our waythrough.
I mean, I have the power, I cansack him because he's not doing
the right job.
But what's in it for me to sackhim?
(14:39):
I need to uh make the projectwork.
So I will use the best of histalents and combine it with the
best of someone else's talentand support him where he he
can't be so strong.
Jay Johnson (14:51):
Such a powerful story because I think that all
of us are in differentsituations where maybe we're uh,
you know, we're so focused onthe product that we forget about
the other context that may havecreated those conditions and
actually approaching that andlistening, as you said.
And, you know, I really lovedwhat you brought out there in
(15:12):
terms of your, you know, thatthat vulnerability in the story
of like, hey, here's where I wasat, and this is what I was
thinking, and this is how you'veshaped and sort of moved to a
different perspective.
And I think that that's sopowerful because our world is is
continuing to get even moreglobal.
I mean, you and I are indifferent countries right now,
(15:33):
different time zones, havingthis beautiful conversation.
And that's where I want to leadit into your book.
So, who's in charge leadingwith real power and creating an
impact in a chaotic world?
The world has never been morechaotic.
And in your book, you identifykind of like three pillars
energy, power, and legacy.
(15:54):
I'd love for you to give us alittle bit of a give us a little
bit of an introduction.
Why did why those threepillars?
And I'm not gonna ask you toanswer the question of who's in
charge.
I'm gonna encourage theaudience to go source that and
find that.
But let's talk about thosethree pillars.
Why energy, power, and legacy?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (16:13):
Well, thank you.
Um the book really comes frommy experience um both as uh like
already in earlier years,researching power in
international relations, andthen uh like experiencing and
being part of power in um in thecorporate world, in
international institutions, uh,in consulting, etc.
(16:36):
Um, so that is one thing,rethinking power, because very
often the way that power isunderstood is about force and
control, and that it's reallylike taking it in a very limited
way.
We are lacking the full extentof power if we have that
traditional view.
So that was power.
And then there is energybecause um I struggled with my
(16:58):
energy, like having more to doand lots to do, so that I wasn't
even able to take a breather inbetween one and the next.
And I think most people whowork today um in interesting
jobs uh have a similar problem.
And I saw also then later whenI was in HR supporting our
(17:20):
leaders and as as a as aleadership coach, that um most
senior leaders and also middlemanagers are suffering from the
same.
Jay Johnson (17:30):
So like being under immense pressure to deliver, um
being passionate to deliveralso, and having to find out how
they can do not only more withless, but um have an impact and
not lose their lives, uh, in thesense of not necessarily dying,
(17:54):
but not living a full life, butsocially dying, or you know,
the the death of the family oruh death of their hobbies, their
joy, their love.
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (18:06):
And that's where then legacy came
in, which was like, yes, I Iwant to sustain myself, I want
to have as much energy availableas possible.
Um, and so how can I reregenerate myself?
And how do I understand humanenergy which is very different
from engine energy?
And then how do I um how do Ihave a life that I really want
(18:31):
to live?
And that's the legacy part.
Um because I personally alsohad um experiences where it came
to me, oh my god, if I dietoday, is this the life that I
really wanted to live or issomething missing there?
And from there I was thinking,okay, so then now how do I make
(18:54):
it the life that I really wantto live?
And that's what I wish foreveryone.
To not think about that when weare on our deathbed, um, or
when we are like 90 years oldand too weak to really change
anything about it, but to haveit as a companion in our life to
think, well, if today was mylast last day, um how would I
(19:16):
feel about my life?
And from that perspective, howwill I shape my life tomorrow?
Jay Johnson (19:23):
So powerful when we when we start thinking about
that, like how is my future selfgoing to perceive this?
Or you know, what is that gonnabe?
So I I really love that.
All right, there's a lot tounpack there, Dr.
Sylvia, and I have so manyquestions and and thoughts.
So now uh let's let's go to thepower.
Let's start with power, becauseyou you gave a powerful story
of hey, I was the manager or Iwas the junior manager, and I
(19:46):
had the authority and the power.
And I do think a lot of peoplesort of misconstrue the the term
power.
Um and this is coming from uhso uh again, I'm just exploring
a bunch of my old past studies,but I loved philosophy.
I loved digging into MichelFoucault and uh Friedrich
(20:06):
Nietzsche and understanding likethe sources of power and how we
perceive power.
And, you know, we've all heardsome of the different terms.
Power abhor a vacuum and youknow, step into your power.
When we think about power, andI love that you've broken that
up into sort of like the strongand dominant power versus maybe
(20:29):
a little bit more of the softpower, if we were to even think
international relations, right?
How can we as a manager, whatcan we look for or what could we
be thinking about to reallyexude that softer side of power,
that influence that comes toplay?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (20:47):
Yeah.
So um I really like using theterm smart power, because then
people don't conf get confusedabout that there might be a
difference, like an oppositionbetween that strong traditional
power, which is about force andcontrol, and then there's the
soft power, which is nice, butit doesn't really achieve a lot
(21:08):
because it's all aboutcollaboration and sometimes it
doesn't work because if we'rejust nice, I mean, then we can't
succeed against these umstrong-headed people.
And I think it's very importantto understand that we can be
very powerful um being smart,and that includes, like in my
(21:28):
book, I speak about the power oflove, which doesn't mean hugs
and kisses, it means the powerof creativity.
So I don't come from fear, uh,and therefore I have to take
things from other people becauseif I don't take it first, they
won't take it.
And uh so I'm I'm in constantpanic mode and I have to oppress
(21:49):
in order not to be seen asweak, etc.
If I come from love in thesense of creativity, then I will
do things because I believe inthem, because I um uh I I see
that we can create a betteroutcome.
So there is a positive creativeforce in it, and um it's much
more powerful than like beingreactive in this sense.
(22:13):
And um then SMART uh means alsoum that for instance that that
I can think in terms of systems.
Um and SMART, by the way, is anacronym systems, merging, uh
authentic, personal, relational,and transformational.
So S-M-A-R-T.
(22:33):
Um and systemic is really superimportant when we um look at
the world that is today.
Like in the past, we couldmaybe be successful in our
careers only knowing our ownthing and working in our own
little corner.
Today, especially as managers,we have to see what's happening
(22:56):
left and right, or as asentrepreneurs, we have to see
what the market looks like.
We have to be more like lookingto the future, into the
distribution systems, into uh uminto the the the the the the
customer needs and how they areshaping into the future and all
these things.
Um so the systems thinking isvery important for our power,
(23:17):
because power doesn't mean todominate.
Because if I'm just sitting onmy power, that is I'm
dominating, in the end I don'tachieve much.
The thing about power is that Ido something with it, no.
Um and that's like I thinkthere are people who like to sit
on the power because they theyare motivated really by feeling
(23:39):
the most powerful or byaccumulating money or something.
But I'm I'm not writing andworking for these people because
um it's difficult for me um toactually uh help them.
So I really focus on the peoplewho are passionate, who want to
(23:59):
make a difference, who want toum um to really achieve
something.
So do something with thatpower.
Jay Johnson (24:08):
It's it seems to me, it seems to me that I and I
really like this because I thinkit fits incredibly well with
the way that I think about someof the different behaviors is
it's almost this balance, right?
Like you have to have a balanceof being able to shift in the
right moment at the right timebetween, hey, this is a place
where I need to exercise alittle bit of that hard power, a
(24:30):
little bit of that authority,or, you know, hey, uh maybe it's
maybe it's uh status, maybeit's title, maybe whatever that
is.
But then there's other placesthat we need to shift more
towards that sort of softerinfluence and collaboration.
And I really like the idea ofsmart power because it does give
us that space of saying, hey,we're making a choice in what
(24:54):
type of power we're trying toexude on another person or in
the world or on our workplace oron our career, et cetera.
Can you maybe talk for just abrief moment on how do we how do
we get better at making thechoice of where it's appropriate
to maybe lean into some more ofthat soft power or maybe lean
(25:15):
into that hard power to be ableto take action with the power
that we're given?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Lieb (25:20):
Fantastic question.
What I can see, and we startstarted talking about initially
about the the chaos in in um intoday's world, uh, it's becoming
more and more difficult for allof us to be calm and collected
and uh make good decisionsbecause like things are flying
(25:41):
left, right, and center, um, andit often seems that we're in
the middle of a hurricane.
And that is why my work with myclients very often is about um
like the inner leadership.
It's like in the smart powermodel, it's the A, the authentic
personal power.
Like how can we be grounded inourselves, uh, which includes
(26:04):
very much the body also, groundin ourselves and our values, um,
so that when something happens,we have a solid uh foundation
on which to base the decision,first of all.
And second, we don't get umoverexcited about something
(26:25):
because we will not project orwe will not make assumptions, or
when we make assumptions, weare aware that we are making
this assumption.
So we are not having a filmrunning, this guy is doing it
because they want to kill.
No, uh, they are doingsomething, and what they're
doing is not conducive to theoutcome we want to achieve.
(26:45):
So we have to have aconversation, and if need be, I
have to stop this.
But I'm not going to take itpersonal because um maybe he's
taking it or they are taking itpersonal, but I do not need to
take it personal.
I'm focused on the outcome.
I will see the person as aperson with their issues and uh
dilemmas, etc.
But I will not get enraged orum um like into a conflict mode
(27:13):
because that's where the whatyou would call the hard power,
um, like the force and control,where it often goes astray,
where we we don't only put ourfoot down, which is good, but we
do it uh while hurting someoneor while using words that really
don't any add anything to theimprovement of human society.
Jay Johnson (27:36):
We see that a little too often, don't we?
So, no, I I I think that'sbeautifully stated and a lot of
great takeaways there.
I uh let's shift to the energyquestion.
And you know, this is somethingthat I've I've passionately
studied.
I would say for at least thelast five years, since the dawn
of COVID, I have reallydedicated a lot of my research,
(27:57):
time, and efforts into burnout.
In fact, I'm actually launchinguh our next iteration of our
boot camp this afternoon.
So this is like perfect timing.
You you bring up energy, and itseems that in our sort of like
chaotic world, everything istrying to draw energy.
(28:17):
And whether that's social mediadrawing our energy, whether
that's politics, whether that'suh conversations with friends,
or you know, you even see uh,especially in the workplace,
doing more with less and uh sortof like this this absolute need
to run at a thousand kilometersa mile, you know, a thousand
(28:40):
kilometers a minute.
How do we look at energy maybedifferently?
Is there is there some thingsthat we can think about in terms
of our own energy, our ownenergy depletion, our own energy
renewals?
What are some of your thoughtson that?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (28:57):
Well, first of all, the the speed and
being um often in the in thecontrol of our um gadgets is
very energy draining.
So the constant running, andI've I've been there myself, and
sometimes I'm still there whenI'm getting not only I have to
do a lot, but I'm gettingoverexcited because I'm
(29:20):
passionate about it, and thenI'm my my mind is going like at
a thousand miles per hour.
Jay Johnson (29:26):
Uh and that's I see you, I feel you on that one.
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (29:29):
I know that that's a lot of fun,
but it's energetically it's notvery efficient.
So um it's very wholesome tohave some practices to bring our
nervous system down to ahealthy level from time to time
because the world is kind of uhpushing us to run.
So we have to have a practiceto um to calm down from time to
(29:52):
time, and then we uh we can dopretty good.
I mean, that's what what I domyself, and I see that that
works because the world is fast.
And it's good to be able to dofast, but in order to like we do
not have to be fast all thetime.
I mean, um, a man of mine, hehe he uses the phrase slow down
to speed up.
And I I challenge him once Ilike slow down to speed up, but
(30:16):
then we are again too muchspeeding up.
How about slow down to slowdown?
Um, because uh slowing down inthis hyperactive world is a
value in itself.
And then we can we can sprintwhen it's needed, but we don't
have to have a constant um athousand miles per hour tempo.
(30:36):
No, when when it's needed.
It's like I'll give you thatexample.
My my younger daughter, sheplayed soccer for many years,
and I saw her in the field andshe wasn't always running.
And first I thought, well,she's a bit lazy, but then it
occurred to me she's smartbecause she runs when she has to
run.
Jay Johnson (30:52):
Serving.
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (30:54):
And I think that's a very good image
for us in any sport.
So when it serves to run, thenwe should run, but not all the
time.
Jay Johnson (31:03):
I love to slow ourselves down, you know, and
that's such a great analogy,too, because you never see one
person just running back andforth with no purpose in any
sport.
They do.
They ex- they they use theirexplosive power when they need
to, they take that conservationapproach when they're sort of
when they have that moment.
(31:23):
I that's a great analogy.
I never actually thought ofthat.
So that's that's beautifullystated.
When we're thinking aboutenergy, and and this is
something that I have found tobe found to be true in in the
burnout research that we'vedoing, is burnout is actually
not about the amount of workthat we're doing.
(31:45):
Burnout is much more about howwe feel about the work, the
quality of the work, the purposeof the work, or whether or not
somebody is just dumping work onour desk, that resentment that
we may have is actually one ofthe contributing factors that
depletes our energy.
(32:05):
And that frustration, thatisolation, that resentment can
just, I mean, just bleed out ourenergy.
Do you have any suggestions orthoughts when it comes to, you
know, in leadership, whetheryou're at the top of the chart,
and I got into entrepreneurshipbecause I thought I'm not gonna
have a boss.
(32:26):
I love being independent.
And then I realized that everyclient is a boss and every
worker is a boss, right?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (32:33):
And we are our own boss, very, very
severe boss.
Jay Johnson (32:37):
So we we all have these different aspects where
maybe we are feeling a littleresentment or frustration or
isolation.
How can a good leader take astep back from that and really
kind of rethink well, what am Idoing with this energy?
What am I doing with thisspace?
And how is this serving me?
(32:58):
Do you have any suggestions orthoughts for those leaders and
entrepreneurs that may findthemselves feeling that uh
energy depletion from resentmentor from that emotional sort of
that emotional degradation?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (33:12):
Yeah, very good, very good.
Um the emotional part issomething that we can really
control when we are aware of it.
So that for us humans, thereare actually four main parts of
energy, which is our physicalenergy, the emotional energy,
the mental energy, and thespiritual energy.
(33:33):
Uh, then there are a fewextras, but these like it's good
to start with these four.
So the the physical, most of usof us know about like eat well,
sleep, uh uh, hydrate, do somesports, etc.
So I won't talk about that.
But the emotional is really,really important.
And it's about uh, forinstance, being aware of what is
(33:55):
going on inside me.
So one of our company doctorsonce joked to me and said, Well,
everyone here says they areirritated.
But they don't have any otheremotions, like they they they
can't pinpoint what it is.
So the first start is actually,what's going on?
It's like, first of all,realizing I'm having an emotion
(34:15):
here because many people are notaware.
They're just like they get aheadache or something, or they
they they they get tired, theyor they should start screaming
at someone, mostly at their cator their wife or their children
or something.
Yeah, but it's like what isactually going on?
And then uh like the this verysimple simplified approach is to
(34:36):
learn that we can pause andchoose.
So our reaction is it never hasto be a reaction, it can be a
choice.
And that will make us much moresuccessful human beings and
leaders when we have thatability to feel, to be aware,
(34:58):
and uh to pause and to choose.
And let me say like one veryimportant thing there again is
the body, because uh we feel ouremotions only because we have a
body, otherwise we wouldn'tfeel them.
So to to allow ourselves tofeel into our body and uh to
know that this is a superprecious instrument to uh to
(35:20):
feel what's going on and to usethat.
That's really, really, reallyhelpful.
The other part which is likelinked to emotional, but it's
actually mental, is our umability to focus.
And there we come to thegadgets again, so not to be like
multitasking, which by the waydoesn't exist.
(35:40):
Actually, it's a very like it'sa layered um um like task
hopping, actually, when we thinkwe are multitasking, and it's
it creates a huge fatigue.
Um so that's uh that that'swhat I would say, like really
think about uh how you can bemore conscious of your feelings
so that they don't run you, butyou can make choices and also
(36:03):
not only choices on yourbehavior, but what is going on
here?
And do I have to interpret itthat way or do I have a choice?
I give you an example of my ownlife.
I once um wanted to have aconversation with my director
about a program I wasresponsible for, and they had uh
postponed the start, and I wasgetting really um like
(36:25):
frustrated.
I was frustrated about it, andhe said, Well, um, it's not
going to happen until um threemonths or something.
And that was on Friday evening,and I stormed out of the office
more or less, and with thisfeeling, poor me, poor me, this
is a horrible organization, andnow I'm going to have a horrible
weekend.
(36:46):
And then two hours later, I wasthinking, Sylvia, now, do you
want to have a horrible weekend?
Uh no, it's actually not worthit.
So, what perspective can I takeon this and what action can I
take to change this?
So I felt like I do not have tomake myself a victim of a
horrible organization.
I, Sylvia, have the power topropose a meeting with my
(37:10):
director on Monday to say, let'stalk about that, because I
believe it's really importantthat we start earlier and I take
the responsibility for that.
And then let's see.
And with that feeling, I wasokay, I I'm in charge, by the
way, who's in charge?
I'm in charge.
Uh, and I will takeresponsibility because
afterwards people might say,Well, Sylvia, it was your fault.
(37:31):
You're wrong.
But that taking responsibilityfor what was going on really
helped me to feel good about it.
So I had a great weekend.
Monday we had a talk.
Um, and luckily he agreed withme.
But even if he hadn't agreed, Iwould have felt better because
I took responsibility and notlike, oh my God, they're so bad,
(37:54):
they don't understand me, etc.
Jay Johnson (37:57):
But I I love that because there's so much, there's
so much depth there.
And and audience, if you didn'thear it, first of all, naming
the emotion, getting anunderstanding, being aware of it
and saying, all right, this iswhere I'm at.
But I love how you transitionedout of like the victim
mentality of woe is me to like,no, actually, I have power, I
(38:17):
have agency, I can step intothis and create a different
pathway.
And how powerful, because sooften we get stuck in our
emotions and we just ruminate onit.
So being able to kind of takethat step back and say, no, I'm
I'm gonna own my weekend, I'mgonna have a great time.
I'm choosing to do somethingabout this because I I do
(38:41):
believe it's the action.
You know, burnout is just anearly warning system.
It's telling us something'soff.
And when we make the choice totake action, that's where we
start to see the relief of thosesymptoms or that relief of the
frustration or anything else,like, okay, I've got a plan, I'm
going forward.
So, in speaking of goingforward, and I know that we're
(39:04):
we're nearly out of time here,but I think it's important to
bring some awareness, thislegacy concept that is that
forward thinking, like, how am Igoing to be remembered?
What's the purpose that I'mserving?
Can you talk to us just alittle bit about that pillar,
legacy?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (39:19):
Yeah.
So um, what I've seen veryoften, um, especially as a as a
coach to senior leaders, is thatsomeone's a very successful
manager, leader.
And when they talk thenprivately to me, there's a lot
that they're not proud of or nothappy about.
(39:41):
Either they are they have lostlike the connection with their
family, uh, they do don't do thethings that they love anymore,
or they are um they've become aperson that they don't want to
be.
And um I've seen that uh sooften that that was one reason
why I said, well, there is thispart.
If I speak to leaders, whatcould help them?
(40:02):
There's the energy, there'sunderstanding power, and then
there's also give um a meaningto your life.
So that at the end of the dayuh or a few days, you will be at
peace with yourself.
But if you do that now, you'reat peace and thriving already
today.
(40:22):
And then there's a personalstory.
I had uh breast cancer in 2010now, that was a like wake-up
call for me to say, Hey Sylvia,uh, death is not a theory.
It actually happens.
Um and then uh it was alsothrough a very interesting
experience I had in my actingtraining.
Uh was later on, where we diduh a eulogy exercise, which is
(40:46):
also in the book.
Uh, and we did it um not onlyin writing, but speaking.
And I connected really with thethings that I want to do in my
life, that I still want to do inmy life, and realized that's
what I'm passionate about, but Ihave not yet done these things.
So I better get going.
(41:07):
And um again, uh the end of ourlives is not a theory, it kind
of happens to all of us.
So if we bring that, when webring that into our
consciousness, it's not beingmorose to say, oh, talking about
dead all the time, but to makedeath death a friendly companion
that actually makes us, helpsus focus on our on what's good
(41:32):
in our life and what we want tocreate in our life and what we
want to be remembered for,because this legacy is not about
having a building named afterour name uh or making lots of
money.
Um, we can also be proud ofthat.
But then also having a reason.
Why does that make me proud?
Could be a very good reason.
(41:52):
Uh, but what is my why behindthat?
And then I think for manypeople, what is sometimes um
comes into focus only very lateuh is how will other people
remember me?
And to to put that in focusearlier on, I think is so
precious for all of us.
Jay Johnson (42:14):
That I love that because we I do believe that we
as a as a species, we we oftenavoid conversations about death
because it's uncomfortable,there's uncertainty, there's a
finality to it.
But you know, the the and I'mtroubling sourcing the the
author, and I'm uh it'll come tome before we finish.
(42:37):
If not, I'll put it into shownotes.
But the concept of dying beforewe die and really kind of
exploring like what does thatmean?
What does my existence mean?
How does that go?
That can be such a powerfulmotivator for us to put in
perspective the things that weneed to prioritize.
Because if if we just followevery social media thread or
(43:00):
anything else, we're probablynot going to be really proud of
that at the end of our days.
But when we do think about theimpact and the legacy that we
are going to leave behind, thatcan really generate some
powerful positive behaviors andmaybe help us avoid some of
those ones that are holding usback.
So I really appreciate that.
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Li (43:20):
Absolutely.
And then it links back topurpose because a lot of the
work that I do and that thatthat drives me is connected to
purpose.
So if I have that red thread, Idon't need to, or I I will not
want to check Facebook and thecat videos all the time because
there's no purpose in that.
So I will be more the personwho who will um create something
(43:43):
myself rather than being ledand driven by random things that
are happening out there becauseI have a purpose.
Jay Johnson (43:50):
Which probably helps you maintain energy and
probably helps you step intoyour power.
So I can see that these threethings are really powerfully
related to each other.
Dr.
Sylvia, this has been anincredible conversation.
I really appreciate you takingthe time.
If our audience wanted to getin touch with you, how would
they do so?
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (44:09):
Very simple.
Uh, I'm on LinkedIn, so my nameis Sylvia Rodolibina, and then
uh through my website also,which is smartpowerweb uh
smartpowermethod.com.
Jay Johnson (44:21):
Awesome.
And we'll make sure that's inthe show notes.
So this is again, I reallyappreciate the work that you're
doing.
It it obviously we share somepassion and some alignment on
this.
So thank you for bringing yourperspective, experience, and
stories to the talentforge.
I really appreciate you.
Dr. Sylvia Rohde-Liebenau (44:40):
Well, thank you, Jay.
It was a wonderfulconversation.
I really loved it.
Jay Johnson (44:44):
I'll look forward to future ones.
And uh thank you, audience, fortuning into this episode of the
Talent Forge, where together weare shaping workforce
behaviors.
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Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com