August 15, 2025 • 41 mins
Dr. Conor Hogan takes us on a fascinating journey through the neural pathways of effective leadership in this mind-expanding conversation. Drawing from his unique background—from coaching sports as a teenager to working with special needs children and eventually earning his PhD—Hogan reveals how neuroscience principles can transform your leadership approach.
The discussion begins with Hogan's remarkable early leadership experiences at just 14 years old, directing adults at his family's golf course. These formative moments taught him to read group dynamics, identify key influencers, and communicate effectively across age gaps—skills that translate perfectly to today's complex workplace environments.
The conversation takes a deeply human turn when discussing authenticity in leadership. Both host and guest share vulnerable personal stories, including Jay's experience caring for his father with dementia. These moments underscore Hogan's key message: vulnerability creates connection rather than weakness.
Connect with Dr. Hogan at XFactorFlow.com and discover how neuroscience can unlock your leadership potential.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where together, we're shapingworkforce behaviors.
Today, my special guest is DrConor Hogan, coming at us from
Ireland.
Welcome to the show, conor.
Thanks for having me Jay.
So I'm really excited to getinto a conversation with you
(00:22):
because our backgrounds are verymuch aligned.
Can you help the audienceunderstand how did you get into
this space of neuroscience andcoaching and talent development?
Dr. Conor Hogan (00:35):
Yeah, well, I mean the last piece first.
I think initially I was asportsman and even when I was
very young, probably 10 to 14years of age, I was training and
coaching young players underthe age of 10.
And so I was quite talented andI used to go down on my
Saturday mornings, my one timeoff during the week, every other
(00:57):
evening, was training myselfand practicing.
And so then by 14, well, evenby 12, my family started up a
golf course business, believe itor not, and so essentially I
brought up in a golf course.
So it was all sport, I wasplaying sport, and by the time I
was 14, I was out on the golfcourse, rangering, answering
(01:21):
questions, directing adults, two, three times, four, four times
my age, seeing the behavior ofeverybody.
And then by my late teens,unfortunately, I was big and
tall, six foot four, veryathletic, playing a lot of sport
beyond my years.
Because when you're young andwhen you're big and you have a
bit of talent, obviously theadult teams come calling.
(01:43):
But I had a kind of a problem,but nobody can put their finger
on it, no medic or anything.
So eventually I went to aspecialist and they figured out
that my spine was very twistedin an s-shaped manner, in a 3d
shape.
It's called scoliosis, and itwas quite profound, and so my
performance decreased so much.
So I was always into improvement.
(02:05):
I was always around sport atthat stage, but now I had time
off, so physically, I was tryingeverything, read everything.
You go to all these therapiesand therapists.
(02:25):
You're lying either on the flatof your back, your stomach or
whatever.
You're having conversations,and a lot of them are
interconnected.
Like you opened up thisparticular podcast where we have
connections.
We have things in common.
A lot of the therapists wouldhave trained at several
different things, and so it getsyour mind wandering and gets
(02:45):
your mind thinking about how canI improve and how can I just
get out of this hole that I'm in.
Jay Johnson (02:50):
Yeah, so, and I'm sorry for that experience, but I
would imagine that thatprobably shaped a lot of where
you're at today and, with thatbeing said, I can share a little
of my story in in a moment.
But how did that shape you?
What?
What did that ultimately pushyou towards?
Dr. Conor Hogan (03:10):
you know driving towards so at that stage
, where my biggest physicalproblems you know, I was a big,
tall guy, I was 17, 18 leavingschool.
What do you do with your time?
And so all that time thatyou're spending in sport I
decided to train as a teacher,and so I went to college and
trained as a what we call hereprimary teacher, but that's also
(03:32):
elementary and stateside highschool as well, so I trained in
both and I ended up then inspecial needs.
Long story short, I'd beeneverywhere teaching and with
special needs.
Then a lot of the issues arecertainly not straight down the
line, they're not out of thebook, so you have to be looking
up things.
And of course, back then and tothe age that I am now, hint hint
(03:55):
the internet was just startingat that time as well, and so
information was becoming morefree online.
You're being to surf the web, asyou can quite recall I'm sure
Jay the term at the time evenbefore social media, and so a
lot of the content was very,very good, it was very solid and
, of course, courses and thingsof that became available.
So I ended up doing a master'sin behavioral change and doing
(04:19):
studies, getting involved withuniversities and eventually a
PhD, all the while while I wasteaching and trying to the
teaching world, sort out theunruly behavioral change that
was happening with children thatwere not allowed or not going
into certain mainstream schools.
They could have been eightyears of age up until like 18
(04:42):
years of age.
These are really intelligentchildren, but children that had
issues, be it at home, be itpsychologically, neurologically
and so on.
So you're all the time doingcourses with that as well,
you're all the time sinking inthat line, and then in the
evenings I was working with alot of leaders and coaching in
that regard as well.
Jay Johnson (05:01):
So you know and I'm going to go back to something
that you said, connor, because II see so much and it's so
interesting, and I'm sure thatthe audience can now figure out
exactly why I was really excitedto talk to you with the
background in sports, uh, Iplayed hockey, I was a mixed
martial artist, I moved intocompetitive debate shortly after
(05:22):
that, uh, and then moved intolearning about behavior Because,
quite frankly, my sports careercame to an end not because of
scoliosis but because, well,quite frankly, I was not going
to make the highest levels ofthe NHL or anything else and I
had to make a really difficultdecision to pursue a pathway
(05:45):
towards academics, education, etcetera.
Now I got a question for youbecause this was something I
experienced and I guarantee someof our listeners, some of those
leaders who might be young,some of those leaders who are
coaching people who are two,three, four times their age,
some of those leaders who walkedinto a leadership position and
(06:07):
immediately had somebody thatwas in the company maybe 30
years, that they're now leadingwhat was it like when you were
on that golf course and you wereleading people who were maybe
older, um, who did maybe havemore years in service, maybe not
as talented.
What was that experience likefor you?
Dr. Conor Hogan (06:30):
God, that's a question I don't think I've been
asked, and if ever, in a longtime for sure.
I was 14 at that stage and,look, all the people that were
there were essentially much,much older, at least 20.
You could have people coming,you know, very busy weekends for
pleasure, maybe book nights orstag nights or things like that
(06:51):
as well groups of men.
And then you have like golfcourse tees which were similar I
think it was like the teenumber one, number eight and
number 18, if my memory servescorrect, were all very closely
aligned and so you had to likeshuffle people about from one
hole the first four holes.
If they were busy, you had tokind of push them towards maybe
eight and say, hey, go overthere and play a couple of holes
(07:14):
.
So communication you had tohave good communication skills.
You had to be able to be in themoment, straight away and see
what's going on, read the groups, see how they're getting on
when they're closely beside eachother.
And that's very linked tooffice culture, of course.
If you're sitting besidesomebody or near people, if you
have different projects and youhave to find out who the leader
(07:36):
is, if you can find out who theleader is and who the person is
that perhaps has paid the moneyin that regard on the golf
course.
That's the person that you needto communicate most with.
The simple things, the softskills that we often refer to
and we often stay away from orjust overlook, are so vital, I
(07:57):
think, now more than ever withtechnology, it's so, so vital.
If we have people at homebehind a computer all day I know
you mentioned at the top ofthis off camera out of the
podcast that you've been so busytoday doing your own coaching
and you're on camera all day.
So what are you supposed to do?
Are you supposed to read themind of the leader or is the
(08:18):
leader supposed to read the mindof the employee?
Or perhaps go to the well-wornskills and sharpen your skills
in that regard, the softerskills, because that's what's
required now more than ever, andespecially if you have
employees.
We're coming out of three yearsor so after a pandemic and
people's lives have been thrownupside down, and I know we're
(08:38):
not like blaming the pandemicfor everything or anything like
that performance at work, butpeople may have issues at home
personally and in their ownpersonal lives.
They may be lonely at home,things like that.
So there's a huge variety ofthings and trying to, as I said,
do the opposite of read themind of people and just
communicate sharply and to beable to I think, going back to
(08:59):
sports as well to be able to andI think in a very similar sense
, if you're in a pressurizedgame and the scoreboard is very
close, there's only a couple ofminutes left and you're trying
to make a huge decision bigcrowd, all pressure, end of
season this is the thing.
This is when it really matters.
We can all sit back and watchvideo and analyze things for
(09:21):
hours on end, but in that momentyou have to be able to make the
decision.
So the more you do these thingsand keep these skills up to
date, the more you bounce off acoach, the more you can learn,
and you have to be open and becoachable to learning.
You have to be able to go I wasyeah, I shouldn't have said
that, or I said things tooquickly Again go back to that
(09:44):
person's life.
You don't know what's going on,so it's just about honing your
skills all of the time.
Jay Johnson (09:50):
I think there's some great insight there, connor
, and thank you for that,because you know a lot of
leaders.
They may be walking into aposition where they have that
sort of hey.
I'm looking up and these peoplehave more experience and I'm
pulling from your conversationor from your comment.
One of the things is to findthe places in the network where
(10:10):
there's influence.
You know if it's that leaderamongst that stag group, whether
that's the leader amongst yourteam at work or whether that's
the leader that's going to havethe best ability to essentially
influence the mass.
Such a great insight.
Now I've got to imagine at somepoint in time you face some
level of resistance.
You know a 14 year old's comingover telling me what to do.
(10:34):
Now, you had size as anadvantage.
We don't always get to leveragethat in the workplace, but if
we're thinking about, hey,you're experiencing some
resistance, how did you maintainyour cool?
And then how did you maybeshift when you felt that
pushback at any of those times?
Dr. Conor Hogan (10:52):
And then how did you maybe shift when you
felt that pushback at any ofthose times?
Well, it's about knowing yoursurroundings, knowing your
environment, knowing the rulesof the game that you have.
So, in that context, obviouslyI was in my home area.
I knew it inside out,physically, I knew the layout of
the course, like I previouslysaid, I knew the timing of how
quick a person was going to playa hole.
(11:14):
I could you begin to size uppeople and say, well, they're
more athletic than the others,or they've a stronger drive or
whatever else.
So you can estimate.
So you need to trust yourjudgment.
Again, that comes fromexperience.
But again, go back to study.
Go back to you have a newemployee, you have a new person.
You've got to know them insideout.
(11:35):
At the end of the day, ifyou're trusting them, and even
if your office is down the halland they're in the building, you
got to make sure that they'renot looking up stuff online
that's taking them from theirproductivity and work.
Looking up stuff online, that'staking them from their
productivity and work.
So, by knowing a person and byshowing the trust to them in
(11:56):
their face, through their faceto their face as such, but by
getting to know them, showingthat you're interested in them,
and all of these things are likeyou can't fake it.
You know, you often hear thesethings like fake confidence and
just put it out there, fake ittill you make it.
No, because people have thisinnate ability where, ok, the
(12:16):
broads ladies listening here arevery clever, they're very
intuitive, but, as a male, wehave to tap into our skills and
realize that you come from amother as well and think of how
you were reared, or think of allthe little nitty gritty with
conversations, the times whereyou're upset when you're growing
up, and it's those littlethings that if you can treat a
(12:39):
person right at the right time,if you can put your arm around
them in one situation but alsogive them a little bit of a whip
in other situations and knowwhen to do that, that's what
makes great leadership as well.
Jay Johnson (12:53):
I love that.
So knowing your team, knowingyour capabilities, being able to
pull the best out of thosecapabilities in those moments.
But I think there's some wisdom, too in having that home court
advantage and really beingcomfortable in the environment.
Such a powerful lesson there.
So let's transition, becauseone of the things that you work
with directly is being able tohelp navigate situations where
(13:17):
there might be anxiety orfrustration or those sort of
stress-related things.
Listening right now, they'rethinking to themselves it's
never been more stressful to bea leader or manager in the
workplace.
You have everything fromeconomic uncertainties and
(13:38):
tariffs.
You have supply chainchallenges.
You have issues with workforcesthat we've been dealing with
since COVID.
Can you give us an example ofwhat are maybe some of the
things that we should bethinking about as leaders,
managers or even trainers?
What should we be thinkingabout in terms of stress and
anxiety?
What can neuroscience reallyhelp us with here?
Dr. Conor Hogan (13:59):
Yeah, well, the first thing is that, with all
those things that are huge,they're huge things that are
inconsistent right now andprobably will be when this
podcast is way off out there inthe future as well.
So the one thing we can'tcontrol is ourselves.
We have the ability to do that.
So we have to look insideourselves, look to our own
weaknesses.
Okay, we don't have to beshouting them from the rooftop,
(14:22):
but we have to say look, I'mgood at this, I was chosen for
this.
Like, for example, a clientthere recently said to me very
honestly look, I'm very goodwith the numbers, I'm very good
technologically, but I'm nervousabout taking on this new role
now because it's, as they put it, the water cooler conversations
.
So you have to be able to adaptin that regard.
(14:44):
And the next thing is, ofcourse, your resources.
Your greatest resources of allare your people.
We talk about artificialintelligence fantastic, but
there's nothing artificial abouta person, and if you can get
them motivated, we know we cansustain them and keep the links
going within teamwork for manyyears to come.
We have things now that we'vediscovered in the last couple of
decades, like neuroplasticityand learning design, and here
(15:07):
we're looking at how the braincan rewire itself.
So, rather than going over oldneural pathways, we're actually,
if you're inspired, if you'relearning, if you're doing the
right type of learning designwithin your specific company,
you're actually starting offbrand new, almost buzz in your
brain where you can springforward, and that's a wonderful
(15:29):
thing.
That means you can, to acertain degree, teach, teach old
dogs new tricks.
So think of the experienced one.
Maybe they're demotivated forwhatever reason, but they have
such such experience and theykeep the culture going.
Maybe they have that bit ofleadership as well, but they're
they're not inspired.
So we have to find ways to getin there and realize that the
brain can rewire itself.
(15:49):
Okay, I'll be at a slower pace,but that's where other things
come in, like the role ofemotion.
If we can check out what'sgoing on with our amygdala,
which is a tricky tongue twisterat the very best of times, and
look at the hippocampus withinour brains as well and how that
integrates together and how theemotions.
(16:11):
Like we know, often for somereason in our human psych, we
know how to get at people.
We know how to like, bug them,like our partners, like our
children, if we want to get themout of bed on a summer's
morning or something, whenthey're not in school and
they're sleeping a bit later, wecan whip the sheets off them or
something like that and justget them out open the window,
put on the hairdryer, whateverelse.
But how can we actually theskills are doing it in a way
(16:35):
where the person realizes, yes,it's emotional, but it's
inspiring me rather thanactually threatening me.
And so all those differentthings together, if we get one
moment of emotion, it can makethat loyalty back and that trust
within your team and for you asa leader.
And then the attention limitsjust to know that when we're
(16:57):
doing anything, the attentionlimits are much less than we
realize, like it's only 10 to 20minutes at most.
There's a guy called richardbandler.
I think everybody should lookhim up.
Wonderful guy, I know.
You know him very, very welland he started off
neuro-linguistic programming andone of the interesting things
he was saying at the start, ofcourse, was that our attention
(17:20):
spans are much smaller than weactually think.
Now.
That's back decades ago.
That's when, if we look at amovie, even from 30 years ago,
20 years ago, great movies liketwo, three hour movies, which
are much longer than what theyare nowadays and there was a
very slow start.
We had a big long creditscoming in at the start and then
(17:41):
a very slow burn or maybe 30minutes.
Nowadays it's even less thanthe 10 to 20 minutes we look at
TikTok.
So that's like growing so muchand it's rewiring.
Going back to that earlierpoint about like growing so much
and it's rewiring.
Going back to that earlierpoint about the neuroplasticity,
it's rewiring not only whatpeople are learning through the
screen, so the education of that, or the entertainment, or the
lack of truth, but also the waywe learn, which is very
(18:04):
important too.
So, again, going back tocommunication, how we
communicate, the phrases we usehave to be so accurate, the
words have to be so accurate.
And then we have like thingslike rest and sleep and how we,
again, if we have people workingfrom home, just knowing having
kind of those water side, thosewater cooler conversations with
(18:27):
them and finding out, elicitingvery subtly what is going on
there, what time are they goingto bed, what time are they
getting up, because there's wakesleep cycles going on there at
the different times you wake, beit a half hour earlier or half
hour late.
So all of that is out there.
Um, memory, memory is a hugething as well.
We've learned, for example,through the brain, from
(18:48):
alzheimer's and the likes ofdementia, where a person can be
totally gone, they don't evenunderstand their nearest carer.
But when it comes to thingslike music again eliciting the
emotion, again, we canconsolidate something that
should have been learned maybe20 years ago.
And there's a thing calledlatent learning as well, where
(19:09):
the aha moment comes in whenyou're on the job, where very
talented people, for example,you put somebody on a course but
they just don't get it untilthey put their activity into
place.
And that's where we need tohave interaction.
That's positive.
So we have teamwork exercises,we use the activity and that's
(19:29):
when a person who really hastalent and you go gosh, they
have so much.
They can glue people together.
They can be like my sidekickhere, but they just technically
don't have the skills yet orthey don't really get it, and
suddenly that's where the ahamoment comes.
So people can learn after thefact, things can come all
together for them.
So knowing all these thingslike it's a bunch of tricks
(19:52):
really, but just being able toadapt them to your particular
situation is so important.
Jay Johnson (19:56):
That adaptability is a key skill, for sure.
And it's interesting, you know,as you were talking about the
dementia and Alzheimer's, it'sactually something that kind of
hits a little close.
My dad had suffered fromdementia and Alzheimer's before
he had passed and it was reallyinteresting because my sister
was the primary caretaker and Iwould take him on a weekend when
(20:19):
I was home and I wasn'ttraveling and speaking, and so
on and so forth.
I'd have him come stay with me.
Well, where I live now isactually it was his cottage, it
was his summer home, so it wasalmost as though it was really
interesting.
The experiences that my sisterwould have were very different
than some of the experiencesthat I would.
It was almost like I wastransporting him back into a
(20:41):
younger time and his mobilitywas different, his cognition was
slightly different, his thoughtprocessing was a little bit
different.
So I want to pair this intowhat you're talking about.
Specifically for some of thoseleaders, the environment that
we're in is going to change.
(21:03):
It's going to shift, you know,just like that patient who's
going from one place to another.
How can we protect ourselvesfrom that sort of uncertainty
that we know is going to happen?
We know there's going to befuture uncertainty?
How can we prepare ourselves,either environmentally or
setting ourselves up for success, to make sure that we're
(21:24):
putting ourselves in the rightpositions to shift a behavior
when it becomes time to shiftthat behavior?
Dr. Conor Hogan (21:32):
when it becomes time to shift our behavior.
Or even ideally, if we imaginea stick car and I'll say car
because you know I know theaccent can be a little bit
tricky on that word, but if youcan imagine going from first
gear, second gear, third gear,fourth gear, fifth gear, and
then back into second, third, upand down the highway, going off
the side roads and so on, thatis work, that is leadership,
(21:55):
that is being able to deal withdifferent people.
A lot of leaders, unfortunately, are very good at fourth and
fifth gear.
They can go, they have bigthinking, they have all the
great things that are neededhigher order skills, higher
performance but they can't pullback to second or third gear.
(22:15):
So when they come off thehighway and encounter that windy
, twisty road, that's when itbecomes difficult.
And so the answer of all ofthat, and to be able to change
your behavior in many differentways and to be open to it, is to
be present throughout all thestudies, throughout East and
West of the world, throughouthistory, throughout east and
(22:39):
west of the world, throughouthistory, and now more so than
ever.
Being present in the moment isso difficult.
Now I challenge every listeneror every watcher of this and
think to yourself are you doingtwo things at once?
Well, if you are, you're not.
You're not being fully present.
That is the truth of it all.
And so being fully presentallows us to change those gears
up and down and, if we can do,and going back to the analogy of
(23:00):
the sports performer, thesports manager, in that moment
we know when the clock isticking.
You're taking that last shot inbasketball, for example, and
the buzzer goes, or you havethat time out and you have a
couple of seconds left.
You have to make that decisionat the right time.
Decision at the right time.
People, your team members, willrespect you if you're present.
They will respect you if youseem to be doing research,
(23:24):
thinking about things, thinkingabout the things that you
already know and you've learned.
You've only a couple of secondsto do that.
And when you have that presenceof mind, then, even if it goes
wrong, most people will continueto be on your side and you can
learn from that experience.
Of course, when things go right,wonderful, but it's the person
who's lacking the presence.
(23:45):
That's where stress pops in thelittle crevices there.
And things from home, or a textyou got from home, or a phone
call or something you're worriedabout somebody in your family,
that's when it all comes on topof us.
It kind of crescendos.
But if we're present in theperfect way and you mentioned
and I'm very sorry for your yourloss there with your parent,
(24:07):
but I can throw this back on youjust to finally finish on this
point is that I'm sure it wasvery, very difficult at that
time and at all times foranybody in that regard, when
they have a loved one andthey're caring for them.
But if you can get through thenine to five and then do your
evening things, do your thingswith your family and then be
attentive to their needs, thenif you can like ideally block
(24:28):
off time at the end of the dayto have your upset time, to have
your emotional time.
But unfortunately we're nothuman beings, we're not wired
like that no-transcript andthank you for that.
Jay Johnson (25:00):
It was a six year journey with my dad and I
remember at the very beginningof it I was a little reluctant
or hesitant, to kind of speak itabout.
You know, to my team.
I've got a team of 14 and Ididn't say anything and I was
just going to carry that weightand not really bring it up.
I didn't want to bother peopleand I'm going to get to a
(25:20):
question that comes along withthis too but at one point in
time my team noticed my behaviorwas shifting.
And it was shifting because Iwas experiencing stress, I was
getting burned out, I wasfeeling anxiety about not
necessarily knowing what wasgoing to happen next or what the
next part of the process was.
And one of my teammatesempathetically and very kindly
(25:42):
said Jay, look, I know there'ssomething going on, we know you,
we know your behavior.
Spill it what's happening.
And I did.
And it was a pivotal moment forme because when I opened up
that emotion, when I opened upthat emotion, I got kindness and
I got that empathy back and wewere able to have some shared
moments and it really did shiftthe way that I showed up at work
(26:04):
, the way that I showed up asCEO the way that I showed up
probably as a caretaker as well.
Now the question that I havehere, connor, and I think that a
lot of people have, is westruggle sometimes, and I'm not
going to say that it's justmales that struggle.
I think females struggle in adifferent way.
Sometimes they don't want tostruggle by showing emotion
(26:26):
because they will be painted andor perceived as weak Males,
kind of the same thing.
The same thing when we thinkabout emotion and from a
leadership perspective, how dowe navigate that resistance that
we feel internally of saying Idon't want to tell people that
I'm upset, I don't want to tellpeople I'm frustrated, I don't
want to disclose or bevulnerable, or I'm not allowed
(26:50):
to not know something, and wehave these sort of like embedded
fears in our brain.
How do we get past that?
How do we navigate that and howdo we create balance where
we're maybe not sharing too muchbut we're sharing enough.
That's creating connections.
Dr. Conor Hogan (27:06):
Yeah, I think part of the answer of that
question is in the question, tobe honest, and you mentioned the
word vulnerability, and I wouldalso kind of align that with
think to yourself, approachingevery situation, every tricky
situation, a meeting orconversation with a person you
don't want to have but you haveto have, be it a client or some
employee.
(27:26):
Think to yourself what's theworst thing that can happen here
.
What's the worst thing that, ifI offload this, even in a very
subtle manner, that can happen?
Well, you might get allteary-eyed, you might actually
have a wobbler, but that's whenthey can see the human side of
you too.
At the end of the day, we'retrying to like the word.
(27:50):
Authenticity is banded about onsocial media and if we go back
over, I think it's around 2010,where social media started off
first, and if we look at evenour most favorite particular
social media platform, likeyoutube, or any of those that
are around since then facebookthey have all augmented in some
way.
They have all altered orchanged human behavior slightly
(28:13):
changed throughout that, and oneof the things that's been
banded about in the last fewyears has been be authentic,
whereas prior to that, peoplewould have been like hiring out
like almost news crews to recordeverything.
Now we have the technology, ofcourse, to, and you're doing it
right here to almost do it allyourself, which is wonderful.
But we have to be authentic.
You mentioned burnout therepreviously as well.
(28:34):
You'll burn out if you're notbeing authentic.
So it's not about reading allof the books, the Brian Tracy's
and these wonderful books onleadership, and then trying to
be Brian Tracy.
It's about just if you can takeone little thing from that book
and then look for another book,maybe that I mentioned, and try
and get a little bit from that.
But at the end of it, duringthe core, it must be yourself.
(28:57):
And again, if you're hiringsomebody new, that's when you
have to show them your authenticside.
You have to be personal fromthe very start.
If you're personal from thevery start, that's when you're
giving yourself leeway.
That if something does go wrongexternally you mentioned
tariffs, you mentioned all thosethings externally, economically
, that we cannot.
We just cannot plan for All thethings that have happened the
(29:18):
last couple of years.
Here in Europe, where I am,you've got war, so close to us
it's changing everythingovernight.
You've got the pandemic part ofthat.
God knows what comes next.
So there will be externalfactors, no matter what business
or company you're in or sector.
So by just giving yourself yourreal self, your true self, say
you know, almost like AlcoholicsAnonymous, I'm Jay and I'm
(29:39):
standing up here and you knowwhat?
I don't have it all together athome.
I've got to do the groceriesbecause my wife is this or
whatever, and you know thatmight be seen as well.
God, I have the same problem,or I won't say it for now, but
they'll feel they owe youbecause of that Right.
So we have a culture, theWestern culture, where it's go,
go, go.
Going back to the gears of thecar, we need to be able to
(30:02):
cruise a little bit, but inorder to do the work and know we
have the work done beforehand,it's a lot about energising our
people, influencing our peoplein the right way and the best
and only way to do that, so thatthey feel the mask is not
slipping here when the pressureand that's such good advice.
Jay Johnson (30:23):
You know, when we think about coming in
authentically, I've always, I'vealways kind of had my own
personal I'm going to call it aleadership signature right Of
where I see, like what my?
And it's like hey, I strive tobe a courageous, courageous
leader who values excellence andlearning through my work in
behavioral intelligence.
(30:51):
How does that, how does thatland for you?
And I would share that withthem because I wanted them to
get a sense of who do I try toshow up as, as a leader, in my
authentic self, every day.
And then I asked them aquestion Connor, I say, do you
feel comfortable helping me getback on track if I seem to fall
(31:11):
off that wagon?
And you know, the pause therefor a moment is often kind of
like I don't know.
You're the CEO, should I?
I want you to feel empoweredthis way, because this is who I
should be, living as myauthentic self.
And if you see me not doingthat, I'm going to be heading to
burnout and I need your help.
(31:31):
And it's been such aninteresting exercise in having
that conversation with my team.
Should they be communicating?
Hey, this is my authentic self,this is who I want to show up,
should they be asking forsupport to say can you help,
keep me on track?
Dr. Conor Hogan (31:54):
What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, I love the way you kindof phrase that there, just in
one sentence, one question.
And I think you can just, ifyou get one thing from this
particular recording as a leader, if you can just come up with
one phrase that you can learnyourself for yourself, think of
your biggest weakness and thinkabout saying, ok, I want to put
(32:16):
that out there and say, look,I'm not actually very, very
talented with this technology,believe it or not.
I'm very good at other thingsand this is why I'm the CEO, but
I'm not really good at this.
But I believe you have thatskill in you, even if it's not
on the resume.
If it is on the resume, coolEmpowerment, like you said.
I mean all the research that'sout there.
(32:37):
Yes, people want money, theywant to be able to get
promotions for sure, but peopleknow that promotions don't come
every day, so it takes a while.
But if you can empower people tofill the gap that the CAO feels
(32:58):
requires, they then know thatthat trust is imparted to you
for that, say, special skill.
They link that, that you'velinked that with them, and if
you can get to the heart of whatit is they love or they feel
they really want to be at in 10years time or something like
that their quest for life.
If you can get to that, wellthen these guys are going to
just know that you're almost.
You're talking aboutbehavioural change, you're
talking about reading their mind, and if you can do that with
(33:20):
several employees, you'll havepeople that will work outside
hours, and that's where a lot ofproductivity can be done,
because they'll be going for ajog or they'll be in the gym or
with friends where they're bored, and they're thinking about
solving the issue at work, butthey're doing it not in a
burnout focused way or on theroad to burnout, more so in a
way that they're focused ondelivering at work and being
(33:45):
able to lead, because it's beenempowered to them to do so.
Jay Johnson (33:51):
It's really insightful.
I love that.
So here's my last question,that I'm really curious what
your perspective is, because Iknow that you're working with
executives and I know thatyou've worked with a bunch of
leaders as well.
What do you see is what'skeeping them up at night?
Is there anything specificallythat you're seeing in the trends
(34:11):
in workforce behavior or in theworkforce that's really
catching them and saying, hey,you know, connor, this is what I
worry about.
What are some of those thingsthat are keeping them up at
night?
Dr. Conor Hogan (34:23):
out.
What are some of those thingsthat are keeping them up at
night?
Well, rather than giving, say,an exhaustive list of this and
that it's more, when you get tothe nitty gritty of it, it's
more about that.
What's keeping them up at nightis that their mind is racing.
Essentially, it's what all ofthese different things in
different industries and so onare doing to them and
essentially, their mind is notsynced with their body.
(34:45):
They're tired, it's 9, 10,whatever time at night, it's
their usual time, and suddenlythey're staring at the clock
three, four, five hours laterand then they get up, maybe,
then they eat and they'rethrowing everything off, all
their routine, their body, theirmind, everything is just out of
sync.
But we need to be able to goback to, like I said, the
(35:05):
present and like things where,if we look at, say, the Eastern
therapies of, say, yoga and TaiChi, all these type of things,
the central core to these are tobe able to have the mind and
body in sync.
Balance in sync, and thetechnologies we have nowadays
are fantastic in the moment,from the nine to five set, where
(35:28):
we can check out an email, sendit back while we're also
leaning over an employee thatneeds our help with their
spreadsheet or something likethat, so we can do two things at
once, or at least we think wecan.
But the mind then is racing allthe way through the day and
then if there's any little worryor pressure that comes on on
top of that, that's where itcomes on top of us.
So essentially, the mind is outof sync, the brain is out of
(35:50):
sync with the body there, andthat's where meditation and all
these wonderful skills to slowourselves down.
And if we go back to theanalogy of the car car with the
stick the gear shift where we'regoing from one to five, that
we're actually faster and moresustainable in gear three, if we
can realize, ideally to go fromfive back down to two to four,
(36:19):
to three and average of three,and then, yeah, of course, go to
five at some stage too.
But we then can see what'scoming up around the corner.
We can, other skills are comingalong.
We can empower people.
We can actually delegatefurther and deeper to people.
They feel more empowered.
So there's only me.
But if you can have 10, youmentioned 14, that's a lot of
people who assume leadership, ifdone correctly.
Jay Johnson (36:42):
No, and that's a great insight.
You know, when we think abouthow we keep ourselves present,
that is one of the biggestchallenges, as you mentioned a
couple of times, and I think sorightly so.
The number of distractions, thenumber of different things that
can penetrate our daily lives,the things that can draw our
(37:02):
attention away from really whatmatters or what's important the
list is infinite and there's aninfinite amount of time that
could be spent on that list.
So if you were to give one lastpiece of advice how to pull
ourselves back, you know when welose that, when we get
distracted as a leader, when Iget distracted, when I start to
(37:24):
lose focus, what is one greatway that I can pull myself back
into presence and really kind ofrealign my perception?
Dr. Conor Hogan (37:35):
Well, it's one of the greatest, perhaps
philosophical questions of alltime.
What is it all for?
And only you, the individuallistener, watcher, viewer, can
answer that for themselves.
Maybe this particular businessor company is just the first of
many.
Maybe it's just the breadwinning one and they're going to
funnel money into somethingelse.
(37:56):
Maybe it's to get children oryoung people through college.
Well then, if that's the case,you need to spend time with
those people too.
So you need to pull it back tothe balance.
Take time out during the day.
Our brain, by the way, lovesthat.
This is where ideas come fromwhen I mentioned the jog, the
run earlier on.
When you're actually activelygoing out there to do something
(38:17):
totally different outside thenine to five, you're trying to
do other things in your life.
That's when solutions comethrough and you kind of go aha,
why didn't I think of thatbefore?
Simple things, but that's whathappens with stress.
Before you know it, it's likethe darkness of night just falls
at the end of autumn.
So you need to be able to havethe headlights on the whole time
, and to do that is to pull back.
(38:39):
I'm not saying go slower, I'msaying pull back.
Have a more holistic viewpoint,be more objective, as if you're
on the top of the mountain tobe able to see everything and to
put yourself in the center ofit all.
And if you do that, believe itor not, everything and everybody
around you will reciprocatefrom that, and then they'll see
that presence is greater thanyou first made out to be.
Jay Johnson (39:03):
I love that question what's it all for?
I think that's such a powerfulway for us to kind of realign
and just really kind of takeinto hey, where am I at, what do
I need to focus on, and what'sit all for Love that?
So this has been such afascinating conversation and I
knew that it would be, dr ConConnor, if our audience wanted
(39:24):
to get in touch with you, howwould they connect with you?
Dr. Conor Hogan (39:27):
Sure, yeah, you can get in touch on X Factor
Flow dot com.
So you have the X Factor andwe'll give you the flow.
Jay Johnson (39:36):
I love it.
Well, I want to say thank youfor taking the time to be here
with me I know that it's in thelater hours of the evening for
you and for making the time tocome and share your knowledge
and experience with the audienceand with me.
It's been a great conversation,so thank you.
Thank you, jay, and thank you,audience, for tuning into this
(39:57):
episode of the Talent Forgewhere, together, we're shaping
the workforce behaviors.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where together, we're shapingworkforce behaviors.
Today, my special guest is DrConor Hogan, coming at us from
Ireland.
Welcome to the show, conor.
Thanks for having me Jay.
So I'm really excited to getinto a conversation with you
(00:22):
because our backgrounds are verymuch aligned.
Can you help the audienceunderstand how did you get into
this space of neuroscience andcoaching and talent development?
Dr. Conor Hogan (00:35):
Yeah, well, I mean the last piece first.
I think initially I was asportsman and even when I was
very young, probably 10 to 14years of age, I was training and
coaching young players underthe age of 10.
And so I was quite talented andI used to go down on my
Saturday mornings, my one timeoff during the week, every other
(00:57):
evening, was training myselfand practicing.
And so then by 14, well, evenby 12, my family started up a
golf course business, believe itor not, and so essentially I
brought up in a golf course.
So it was all sport, I wasplaying sport, and by the time I
was 14, I was out on the golfcourse, rangering, answering
(01:21):
questions, directing adults, two, three times, four, four times
my age, seeing the behavior ofeverybody.
And then by my late teens,unfortunately, I was big and
tall, six foot four, veryathletic, playing a lot of sport
beyond my years.
Because when you're young andwhen you're big and you have a
bit of talent, obviously theadult teams come calling.
(01:43):
But I had a kind of a problem,but nobody can put their finger
on it, no medic or anything.
So eventually I went to aspecialist and they figured out
that my spine was very twistedin an s-shaped manner, in a 3d
shape.
It's called scoliosis, and itwas quite profound, and so my
performance decreased so much.
So I was always into improvement.
(02:05):
I was always around sport atthat stage, but now I had time
off, so physically, I was tryingeverything, read everything.
You go to all these therapiesand therapists.
(02:25):
You're lying either on the flatof your back, your stomach or
whatever.
You're having conversations,and a lot of them are
interconnected.
Like you opened up thisparticular podcast where we have
connections.
We have things in common.
A lot of the therapists wouldhave trained at several
different things, and so it getsyour mind wandering and gets
(02:45):
your mind thinking about how canI improve and how can I just
get out of this hole that I'm in.
Jay Johnson (02:50):
Yeah, so, and I'm sorry for that experience, but I
would imagine that thatprobably shaped a lot of where
you're at today and, with thatbeing said, I can share a little
of my story in in a moment.
But how did that shape you?
What?
What did that ultimately pushyou towards?
Dr. Conor Hogan (03:10):
you know driving towards so at that stage
, where my biggest physicalproblems you know, I was a big,
tall guy, I was 17, 18 leavingschool.
What do you do with your time?
And so all that time thatyou're spending in sport I
decided to train as a teacher,and so I went to college and
trained as a what we call hereprimary teacher, but that's also
(03:32):
elementary and stateside highschool as well, so I trained in
both and I ended up then inspecial needs.
Long story short, I'd beeneverywhere teaching and with
special needs.
Then a lot of the issues arecertainly not straight down the
line, they're not out of thebook, so you have to be looking
up things.
And of course, back then and tothe age that I am now, hint hint
(03:55):
the internet was just startingat that time as well, and so
information was becoming morefree online.
You're being to surf the web, asyou can quite recall I'm sure
Jay the term at the time evenbefore social media, and so a
lot of the content was very,very good, it was very solid and
, of course, courses and thingsof that became available.
So I ended up doing a master'sin behavioral change and doing
(04:19):
studies, getting involved withuniversities and eventually a
PhD, all the while while I wasteaching and trying to the
teaching world, sort out theunruly behavioral change that
was happening with children thatwere not allowed or not going
into certain mainstream schools.
They could have been eightyears of age up until like 18
(04:42):
years of age.
These are really intelligentchildren, but children that had
issues, be it at home, be itpsychologically, neurologically
and so on.
So you're all the time doingcourses with that as well,
you're all the time sinking inthat line, and then in the
evenings I was working with alot of leaders and coaching in
that regard as well.
Jay Johnson (05:01):
So you know and I'm going to go back to something
that you said, connor, because II see so much and it's so
interesting, and I'm sure thatthe audience can now figure out
exactly why I was really excitedto talk to you with the
background in sports, uh, Iplayed hockey, I was a mixed
martial artist, I moved intocompetitive debate shortly after
(05:22):
that, uh, and then moved intolearning about behavior Because,
quite frankly, my sports careercame to an end not because of
scoliosis but because, well,quite frankly, I was not going
to make the highest levels ofthe NHL or anything else and I
had to make a really difficultdecision to pursue a pathway
(05:45):
towards academics, education, etcetera.
Now I got a question for youbecause this was something I
experienced and I guarantee someof our listeners, some of those
leaders who might be young,some of those leaders who are
coaching people who are two,three, four times their age,
some of those leaders who walkedinto a leadership position and
(06:07):
immediately had somebody thatwas in the company maybe 30
years, that they're now leadingwhat was it like when you were
on that golf course and you wereleading people who were maybe
older, um, who did maybe havemore years in service, maybe not
as talented.
What was that experience likefor you?
Dr. Conor Hogan (06:30):
God, that's a question I don't think I've been
asked, and if ever, in a longtime for sure.
I was 14 at that stage and,look, all the people that were
there were essentially much,much older, at least 20.
You could have people coming,you know, very busy weekends for
pleasure, maybe book nights orstag nights or things like that
(06:51):
as well groups of men.
And then you have like golfcourse tees which were similar I
think it was like the teenumber one, number eight and
number 18, if my memory servescorrect, were all very closely
aligned and so you had to likeshuffle people about from one
hole the first four holes.
If they were busy, you had tokind of push them towards maybe
eight and say, hey, go overthere and play a couple of holes
(07:14):
.
So communication you had tohave good communication skills.
You had to be able to be in themoment, straight away and see
what's going on, read the groups, see how they're getting on
when they're closely beside eachother.
And that's very linked tooffice culture, of course.
If you're sitting besidesomebody or near people, if you
have different projects and youhave to find out who the leader
(07:36):
is, if you can find out who theleader is and who the person is
that perhaps has paid the moneyin that regard on the golf
course.
That's the person that you needto communicate most with.
The simple things, the softskills that we often refer to
and we often stay away from orjust overlook, are so vital, I
(07:57):
think, now more than ever withtechnology, it's so, so vital.
If we have people at homebehind a computer all day I know
you mentioned at the top ofthis off camera out of the
podcast that you've been so busytoday doing your own coaching
and you're on camera all day.
So what are you supposed to do?
Are you supposed to read themind of the leader or is the
(08:18):
leader supposed to read the mindof the employee?
Or perhaps go to the well-wornskills and sharpen your skills
in that regard, the softerskills, because that's what's
required now more than ever, andespecially if you have
employees.
We're coming out of three yearsor so after a pandemic and
people's lives have been thrownupside down, and I know we're
(08:38):
not like blaming the pandemicfor everything or anything like
that performance at work, butpeople may have issues at home
personally and in their ownpersonal lives.
They may be lonely at home,things like that.
So there's a huge variety ofthings and trying to, as I said,
do the opposite of read themind of people and just
communicate sharply and to beable to I think, going back to
(08:59):
sports as well to be able to andI think in a very similar sense
, if you're in a pressurizedgame and the scoreboard is very
close, there's only a couple ofminutes left and you're trying
to make a huge decision bigcrowd, all pressure, end of
season this is the thing.
This is when it really matters.
We can all sit back and watchvideo and analyze things for
(09:21):
hours on end, but in that momentyou have to be able to make the
decision.
So the more you do these thingsand keep these skills up to
date, the more you bounce off acoach, the more you can learn,
and you have to be open and becoachable to learning.
You have to be able to go I wasyeah, I shouldn't have said
that, or I said things tooquickly Again go back to that
(09:44):
person's life.
You don't know what's going on,so it's just about honing your
skills all of the time.
Jay Johnson (09:50):
I think there's some great insight there, connor
, and thank you for that,because you know a lot of
leaders.
They may be walking into aposition where they have that
sort of hey.
I'm looking up and these peoplehave more experience and I'm
pulling from your conversationor from your comment.
One of the things is to findthe places in the network where
(10:10):
there's influence.
You know if it's that leaderamongst that stag group, whether
that's the leader amongst yourteam at work or whether that's
the leader that's going to havethe best ability to essentially
influence the mass.
Such a great insight.
Now I've got to imagine at somepoint in time you face some
level of resistance.
You know a 14 year old's comingover telling me what to do.
(10:34):
Now, you had size as anadvantage.
We don't always get to leveragethat in the workplace, but if
we're thinking about, hey,you're experiencing some
resistance, how did you maintainyour cool?
And then how did you maybeshift when you felt that
pushback at any of those times?
Dr. Conor Hogan (10:52):
And then how did you maybe shift when you
felt that pushback at any ofthose times?
Well, it's about knowing yoursurroundings, knowing your
environment, knowing the rulesof the game that you have.
So, in that context, obviouslyI was in my home area.
I knew it inside out,physically, I knew the layout of
the course, like I previouslysaid, I knew the timing of how
quick a person was going to playa hole.
(11:14):
I could you begin to size uppeople and say, well, they're
more athletic than the others,or they've a stronger drive or
whatever else.
So you can estimate.
So you need to trust yourjudgment.
Again, that comes fromexperience.
But again, go back to study.
Go back to you have a newemployee, you have a new person.
You've got to know them insideout.
(11:35):
At the end of the day, ifyou're trusting them, and even
if your office is down the halland they're in the building, you
got to make sure that they'renot looking up stuff online
that's taking them from theirproductivity and work.
Looking up stuff online, that'staking them from their
productivity and work.
So, by knowing a person and byshowing the trust to them in
(11:56):
their face, through their faceto their face as such, but by
getting to know them, showingthat you're interested in them,
and all of these things are likeyou can't fake it.
You know, you often hear thesethings like fake confidence and
just put it out there, fake ittill you make it.
No, because people have thisinnate ability where, ok, the
(12:16):
broads ladies listening here arevery clever, they're very
intuitive, but, as a male, wehave to tap into our skills and
realize that you come from amother as well and think of how
you were reared, or think of allthe little nitty gritty with
conversations, the times whereyou're upset when you're growing
up, and it's those littlethings that if you can treat a
(12:39):
person right at the right time,if you can put your arm around
them in one situation but alsogive them a little bit of a whip
in other situations and knowwhen to do that, that's what
makes great leadership as well.
Jay Johnson (12:53):
I love that.
So knowing your team, knowingyour capabilities, being able to
pull the best out of thosecapabilities in those moments.
But I think there's some wisdom, too in having that home court
advantage and really beingcomfortable in the environment.
Such a powerful lesson there.
So let's transition, becauseone of the things that you work
with directly is being able tohelp navigate situations where
(13:17):
there might be anxiety orfrustration or those sort of
stress-related things.
Listening right now, they'rethinking to themselves it's
never been more stressful to bea leader or manager in the
workplace.
You have everything fromeconomic uncertainties and
(13:38):
tariffs.
You have supply chainchallenges.
You have issues with workforcesthat we've been dealing with
since COVID.
Can you give us an example ofwhat are maybe some of the
things that we should bethinking about as leaders,
managers or even trainers?
What should we be thinkingabout in terms of stress and
anxiety?
What can neuroscience reallyhelp us with here?
Dr. Conor Hogan (13:59):
Yeah, well, the first thing is that, with all
those things that are huge,they're huge things that are
inconsistent right now andprobably will be when this
podcast is way off out there inthe future as well.
So the one thing we can'tcontrol is ourselves.
We have the ability to do that.
So we have to look insideourselves, look to our own
weaknesses.
Okay, we don't have to beshouting them from the rooftop,
(14:22):
but we have to say look, I'mgood at this, I was chosen for
this.
Like, for example, a clientthere recently said to me very
honestly look, I'm very goodwith the numbers, I'm very good
technologically, but I'm nervousabout taking on this new role
now because it's, as they put it, the water cooler conversations
.
So you have to be able to adaptin that regard.
(14:44):
And the next thing is, ofcourse, your resources.
Your greatest resources of allare your people.
We talk about artificialintelligence fantastic, but
there's nothing artificial abouta person, and if you can get
them motivated, we know we cansustain them and keep the links
going within teamwork for manyyears to come.
We have things now that we'vediscovered in the last couple of
decades, like neuroplasticityand learning design, and here
(15:07):
we're looking at how the braincan rewire itself.
So, rather than going over oldneural pathways, we're actually,
if you're inspired, if you'relearning, if you're doing the
right type of learning designwithin your specific company,
you're actually starting offbrand new, almost buzz in your
brain where you can springforward, and that's a wonderful
(15:29):
thing.
That means you can, to acertain degree, teach, teach old
dogs new tricks.
So think of the experienced one.
Maybe they're demotivated forwhatever reason, but they have
such such experience and theykeep the culture going.
Maybe they have that bit ofleadership as well, but they're
they're not inspired.
So we have to find ways to getin there and realize that the
brain can rewire itself.
(15:49):
Okay, I'll be at a slower pace,but that's where other things
come in, like the role ofemotion.
If we can check out what'sgoing on with our amygdala,
which is a tricky tongue twisterat the very best of times, and
look at the hippocampus withinour brains as well and how that
integrates together and how theemotions.
(16:11):
Like we know, often for somereason in our human psych, we
know how to get at people.
We know how to like, bug them,like our partners, like our
children, if we want to get themout of bed on a summer's
morning or something, whenthey're not in school and
they're sleeping a bit later, wecan whip the sheets off them or
something like that and justget them out open the window,
put on the hairdryer, whateverelse.
But how can we actually theskills are doing it in a way
(16:35):
where the person realizes, yes,it's emotional, but it's
inspiring me rather thanactually threatening me.
And so all those differentthings together, if we get one
moment of emotion, it can makethat loyalty back and that trust
within your team and for you asa leader.
And then the attention limitsjust to know that when we're
(16:57):
doing anything, the attentionlimits are much less than we
realize, like it's only 10 to 20minutes at most.
There's a guy called richardbandler.
I think everybody should lookhim up.
Wonderful guy, I know.
You know him very, very welland he started off
neuro-linguistic programming andone of the interesting things
he was saying at the start, ofcourse, was that our attention
(17:20):
spans are much smaller than weactually think.
Now.
That's back decades ago.
That's when, if we look at amovie, even from 30 years ago,
20 years ago, great movies liketwo, three hour movies, which
are much longer than what theyare nowadays and there was a
very slow start.
We had a big long creditscoming in at the start and then
(17:41):
a very slow burn or maybe 30minutes.
Nowadays it's even less thanthe 10 to 20 minutes we look at
TikTok.
So that's like growing so muchand it's rewiring.
Going back to that earlierpoint about like growing so much
and it's rewiring.
Going back to that earlierpoint about the neuroplasticity,
it's rewiring not only whatpeople are learning through the
screen, so the education of that, or the entertainment, or the
lack of truth, but also the waywe learn, which is very
(18:04):
important too.
So, again, going back tocommunication, how we
communicate, the phrases we usehave to be so accurate, the
words have to be so accurate.
And then we have like thingslike rest and sleep and how we,
again, if we have people workingfrom home, just knowing having
kind of those water side, thosewater cooler conversations with
(18:27):
them and finding out, elicitingvery subtly what is going on
there, what time are they goingto bed, what time are they
getting up, because there's wakesleep cycles going on there at
the different times you wake, beit a half hour earlier or half
hour late.
So all of that is out there.
Um, memory, memory is a hugething as well.
We've learned, for example,through the brain, from
(18:48):
alzheimer's and the likes ofdementia, where a person can be
totally gone, they don't evenunderstand their nearest carer.
But when it comes to thingslike music again eliciting the
emotion, again, we canconsolidate something that
should have been learned maybe20 years ago.
And there's a thing calledlatent learning as well, where
(19:09):
the aha moment comes in whenyou're on the job, where very
talented people, for example,you put somebody on a course but
they just don't get it untilthey put their activity into
place.
And that's where we need tohave interaction.
That's positive.
So we have teamwork exercises,we use the activity and that's
(19:29):
when a person who really hastalent and you go gosh, they
have so much.
They can glue people together.
They can be like my sidekickhere, but they just technically
don't have the skills yet orthey don't really get it, and
suddenly that's where the ahamoment comes.
So people can learn after thefact, things can come all
together for them.
So knowing all these thingslike it's a bunch of tricks
(19:52):
really, but just being able toadapt them to your particular
situation is so important.
Jay Johnson (19:56):
That adaptability is a key skill, for sure.
And it's interesting, you know,as you were talking about the
dementia and Alzheimer's, it'sactually something that kind of
hits a little close.
My dad had suffered fromdementia and Alzheimer's before
he had passed and it was reallyinteresting because my sister
was the primary caretaker and Iwould take him on a weekend when
(20:19):
I was home and I wasn'ttraveling and speaking, and so
on and so forth.
I'd have him come stay with me.
Well, where I live now isactually it was his cottage, it
was his summer home, so it wasalmost as though it was really
interesting.
The experiences that my sisterwould have were very different
than some of the experiencesthat I would.
It was almost like I wastransporting him back into a
(20:41):
younger time and his mobilitywas different, his cognition was
slightly different, his thoughtprocessing was a little bit
different.
So I want to pair this intowhat you're talking about.
Specifically for some of thoseleaders, the environment that
we're in is going to change.
(21:03):
It's going to shift, you know,just like that patient who's
going from one place to another.
How can we protect ourselvesfrom that sort of uncertainty
that we know is going to happen?
We know there's going to befuture uncertainty?
How can we prepare ourselves,either environmentally or
setting ourselves up for success, to make sure that we're
(21:24):
putting ourselves in the rightpositions to shift a behavior
when it becomes time to shiftthat behavior?
Dr. Conor Hogan (21:32):
when it becomes time to shift our behavior.
Or even ideally, if we imaginea stick car and I'll say car
because you know I know theaccent can be a little bit
tricky on that word, but if youcan imagine going from first
gear, second gear, third gear,fourth gear, fifth gear, and
then back into second, third, upand down the highway, going off
the side roads and so on, thatis work, that is leadership,
(21:55):
that is being able to deal withdifferent people.
A lot of leaders, unfortunately, are very good at fourth and
fifth gear.
They can go, they have bigthinking, they have all the
great things that are neededhigher order skills, higher
performance but they can't pullback to second or third gear.
(22:15):
So when they come off thehighway and encounter that windy
, twisty road, that's when itbecomes difficult.
And so the answer of all ofthat, and to be able to change
your behavior in many differentways and to be open to it, is to
be present throughout all thestudies, throughout East and
West of the world, throughouthistory, throughout east and
(22:39):
west of the world, throughouthistory, and now more so than
ever.
Being present in the moment isso difficult.
Now I challenge every listeneror every watcher of this and
think to yourself are you doingtwo things at once?
Well, if you are, you're not.
You're not being fully present.
That is the truth of it all.
And so being fully presentallows us to change those gears
up and down and, if we can do,and going back to the analogy of
(23:00):
the sports performer, thesports manager, in that moment
we know when the clock isticking.
You're taking that last shot inbasketball, for example, and
the buzzer goes, or you havethat time out and you have a
couple of seconds left.
You have to make that decisionat the right time.
Decision at the right time.
People, your team members, willrespect you if you're present.
They will respect you if youseem to be doing research,
(23:24):
thinking about things, thinkingabout the things that you
already know and you've learned.
You've only a couple of secondsto do that.
And when you have that presenceof mind, then, even if it goes
wrong, most people will continueto be on your side and you can
learn from that experience.
Of course, when things go right,wonderful, but it's the person
who's lacking the presence.
(23:45):
That's where stress pops in thelittle crevices there.
And things from home, or a textyou got from home, or a phone
call or something you're worriedabout somebody in your family,
that's when it all comes on topof us.
It kind of crescendos.
But if we're present in theperfect way and you mentioned
and I'm very sorry for your yourloss there with your parent,
(24:07):
but I can throw this back on youjust to finally finish on this
point is that I'm sure it wasvery, very difficult at that
time and at all times foranybody in that regard, when
they have a loved one andthey're caring for them.
But if you can get through thenine to five and then do your
evening things, do your thingswith your family and then be
attentive to their needs, thenif you can like ideally block
(24:28):
off time at the end of the dayto have your upset time, to have
your emotional time.
But unfortunately we're nothuman beings, we're not wired
like that no-transcript andthank you for that.
Jay Johnson (25:00):
It was a six year journey with my dad and I
remember at the very beginningof it I was a little reluctant
or hesitant, to kind of speak itabout.
You know, to my team.
I've got a team of 14 and Ididn't say anything and I was
just going to carry that weightand not really bring it up.
I didn't want to bother peopleand I'm going to get to a
(25:20):
question that comes along withthis too but at one point in
time my team noticed my behaviorwas shifting.
And it was shifting because Iwas experiencing stress, I was
getting burned out, I wasfeeling anxiety about not
necessarily knowing what wasgoing to happen next or what the
next part of the process was.
And one of my teammatesempathetically and very kindly
(25:42):
said Jay, look, I know there'ssomething going on, we know you,
we know your behavior.
Spill it what's happening.
And I did.
And it was a pivotal moment forme because when I opened up
that emotion, when I opened upthat emotion, I got kindness and
I got that empathy back and wewere able to have some shared
moments and it really did shiftthe way that I showed up at work
(26:04):
, the way that I showed up asCEO the way that I showed up
probably as a caretaker as well.
Now the question that I havehere, connor, and I think that a
lot of people have, is westruggle sometimes, and I'm not
going to say that it's justmales that struggle.
I think females struggle in adifferent way.
Sometimes they don't want tostruggle by showing emotion
(26:26):
because they will be painted andor perceived as weak Males,
kind of the same thing.
The same thing when we thinkabout emotion and from a
leadership perspective, how dowe navigate that resistance that
we feel internally of saying Idon't want to tell people that
I'm upset, I don't want to tellpeople I'm frustrated, I don't
want to disclose or bevulnerable, or I'm not allowed
(26:50):
to not know something, and wehave these sort of like embedded
fears in our brain.
How do we get past that?
How do we navigate that and howdo we create balance where
we're maybe not sharing too muchbut we're sharing enough.
That's creating connections.
Dr. Conor Hogan (27:06):
Yeah, I think part of the answer of that
question is in the question, tobe honest, and you mentioned the
word vulnerability, and I wouldalso kind of align that with
think to yourself, approachingevery situation, every tricky
situation, a meeting orconversation with a person you
don't want to have but you haveto have, be it a client or some
employee.
(27:26):
Think to yourself what's theworst thing that can happen here
.
What's the worst thing that, ifI offload this, even in a very
subtle manner, that can happen?
Well, you might get allteary-eyed, you might actually
have a wobbler, but that's whenthey can see the human side of
you too.
At the end of the day, we'retrying to like the word.
(27:50):
Authenticity is banded about onsocial media and if we go back
over, I think it's around 2010,where social media started off
first, and if we look at evenour most favorite particular
social media platform, likeyoutube, or any of those that
are around since then facebookthey have all augmented in some
way.
They have all altered orchanged human behavior slightly
(28:13):
changed throughout that, and oneof the things that's been
banded about in the last fewyears has been be authentic,
whereas prior to that, peoplewould have been like hiring out
like almost news crews to recordeverything.
Now we have the technology, ofcourse, to, and you're doing it
right here to almost do it allyourself, which is wonderful.
But we have to be authentic.
You mentioned burnout therepreviously as well.
(28:34):
You'll burn out if you're notbeing authentic.
So it's not about reading allof the books, the Brian Tracy's
and these wonderful books onleadership, and then trying to
be Brian Tracy.
It's about just if you can takeone little thing from that book
and then look for another book,maybe that I mentioned, and try
and get a little bit from that.
But at the end of it, duringthe core, it must be yourself.
(28:57):
And again, if you're hiringsomebody new, that's when you
have to show them your authenticside.
You have to be personal fromthe very start.
If you're personal from thevery start, that's when you're
giving yourself leeway.
That if something does go wrongexternally you mentioned
tariffs, you mentioned all thosethings externally, economically
, that we cannot.
We just cannot plan for All thethings that have happened the
(29:18):
last couple of years.
Here in Europe, where I am,you've got war, so close to us
it's changing everythingovernight.
You've got the pandemic part ofthat.
God knows what comes next.
So there will be externalfactors, no matter what business
or company you're in or sector.
So by just giving yourself yourreal self, your true self, say
you know, almost like AlcoholicsAnonymous, I'm Jay and I'm
(29:39):
standing up here and you knowwhat?
I don't have it all together athome.
I've got to do the groceriesbecause my wife is this or
whatever, and you know thatmight be seen as well.
God, I have the same problem,or I won't say it for now, but
they'll feel they owe youbecause of that Right.
So we have a culture, theWestern culture, where it's go,
go, go.
Going back to the gears of thecar, we need to be able to
(30:02):
cruise a little bit, but inorder to do the work and know we
have the work done beforehand,it's a lot about energising our
people, influencing our peoplein the right way and the best
and only way to do that, so thatthey feel the mask is not
slipping here when the pressureand that's such good advice.
Jay Johnson (30:23):
You know, when we think about coming in
authentically, I've always, I'vealways kind of had my own
personal I'm going to call it aleadership signature right Of
where I see, like what my?
And it's like hey, I strive tobe a courageous, courageous
leader who values excellence andlearning through my work in
behavioral intelligence.
(30:51):
How does that, how does thatland for you?
And I would share that withthem because I wanted them to
get a sense of who do I try toshow up as, as a leader, in my
authentic self, every day.
And then I asked them aquestion Connor, I say, do you
feel comfortable helping me getback on track if I seem to fall
(31:11):
off that wagon?
And you know, the pause therefor a moment is often kind of
like I don't know.
You're the CEO, should I?
I want you to feel empoweredthis way, because this is who I
should be, living as myauthentic self.
And if you see me not doingthat, I'm going to be heading to
burnout and I need your help.
(31:31):
And it's been such aninteresting exercise in having
that conversation with my team.
Should they be communicating?
Hey, this is my authentic self,this is who I want to show up,
should they be asking forsupport to say can you help,
keep me on track?
Dr. Conor Hogan (31:54):
What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, I love the way you kindof phrase that there, just in
one sentence, one question.
And I think you can just, ifyou get one thing from this
particular recording as a leader, if you can just come up with
one phrase that you can learnyourself for yourself, think of
your biggest weakness and thinkabout saying, ok, I want to put
(32:16):
that out there and say, look,I'm not actually very, very
talented with this technology,believe it or not.
I'm very good at other thingsand this is why I'm the CEO, but
I'm not really good at this.
But I believe you have thatskill in you, even if it's not
on the resume.
If it is on the resume, coolEmpowerment, like you said.
I mean all the research that'sout there.
(32:37):
Yes, people want money, theywant to be able to get
promotions for sure, but peopleknow that promotions don't come
every day, so it takes a while.
But if you can empower people tofill the gap that the CAO feels
(32:58):
requires, they then know thatthat trust is imparted to you
for that, say, special skill.
They link that, that you'velinked that with them, and if
you can get to the heart of whatit is they love or they feel
they really want to be at in 10years time or something like
that their quest for life.
If you can get to that, wellthen these guys are going to
just know that you're almost.
You're talking aboutbehavioural change, you're
talking about reading their mind, and if you can do that with
(33:20):
several employees, you'll havepeople that will work outside
hours, and that's where a lot ofproductivity can be done,
because they'll be going for ajog or they'll be in the gym or
with friends where they're bored, and they're thinking about
solving the issue at work, butthey're doing it not in a
burnout focused way or on theroad to burnout, more so in a
way that they're focused ondelivering at work and being
(33:45):
able to lead, because it's beenempowered to them to do so.
Jay Johnson (33:51):
It's really insightful.
I love that.
So here's my last question,that I'm really curious what
your perspective is, because Iknow that you're working with
executives and I know thatyou've worked with a bunch of
leaders as well.
What do you see is what'skeeping them up at night?
Is there anything specificallythat you're seeing in the trends
(34:11):
in workforce behavior or in theworkforce that's really
catching them and saying, hey,you know, connor, this is what I
worry about.
What are some of those thingsthat are keeping them up at
night?
Dr. Conor Hogan (34:23):
out.
What are some of those thingsthat are keeping them up at
night?
Well, rather than giving, say,an exhaustive list of this and
that it's more, when you get tothe nitty gritty of it, it's
more about that.
What's keeping them up at nightis that their mind is racing.
Essentially, it's what all ofthese different things in
different industries and so onare doing to them and
essentially, their mind is notsynced with their body.
(34:45):
They're tired, it's 9, 10,whatever time at night, it's
their usual time, and suddenlythey're staring at the clock
three, four, five hours laterand then they get up, maybe,
then they eat and they'rethrowing everything off, all
their routine, their body, theirmind, everything is just out of
sync.
But we need to be able to goback to, like I said, the
(35:05):
present and like things where,if we look at, say, the Eastern
therapies of, say, yoga and TaiChi, all these type of things,
the central core to these are tobe able to have the mind and
body in sync.
Balance in sync, and thetechnologies we have nowadays
are fantastic in the moment,from the nine to five set, where
(35:28):
we can check out an email, sendit back while we're also
leaning over an employee thatneeds our help with their
spreadsheet or something likethat, so we can do two things at
once, or at least we think wecan.
But the mind then is racing allthe way through the day and
then if there's any little worryor pressure that comes on on
top of that, that's where itcomes on top of us.
So essentially, the mind is outof sync, the brain is out of
(35:50):
sync with the body there, andthat's where meditation and all
these wonderful skills to slowourselves down.
And if we go back to theanalogy of the car car with the
stick the gear shift where we'regoing from one to five, that
we're actually faster and moresustainable in gear three, if we
can realize, ideally to go fromfive back down to two to four,
(36:19):
to three and average of three,and then, yeah, of course, go to
five at some stage too.
But we then can see what'scoming up around the corner.
We can, other skills are comingalong.
We can empower people.
We can actually delegatefurther and deeper to people.
They feel more empowered.
So there's only me.
But if you can have 10, youmentioned 14, that's a lot of
people who assume leadership, ifdone correctly.
Jay Johnson (36:42):
No, and that's a great insight.
You know, when we think abouthow we keep ourselves present,
that is one of the biggestchallenges, as you mentioned a
couple of times, and I think sorightly so.
The number of distractions, thenumber of different things that
can penetrate our daily lives,the things that can draw our
(37:02):
attention away from really whatmatters or what's important the
list is infinite and there's aninfinite amount of time that
could be spent on that list.
So if you were to give one lastpiece of advice how to pull
ourselves back, you know when welose that, when we get
distracted as a leader, when Iget distracted, when I start to
(37:24):
lose focus, what is one greatway that I can pull myself back
into presence and really kind ofrealign my perception?
Dr. Conor Hogan (37:35):
Well, it's one of the greatest, perhaps
philosophical questions of alltime.
What is it all for?
And only you, the individuallistener, watcher, viewer, can
answer that for themselves.
Maybe this particular businessor company is just the first of
many.
Maybe it's just the breadwinning one and they're going to
funnel money into somethingelse.
(37:56):
Maybe it's to get children oryoung people through college.
Well then, if that's the case,you need to spend time with
those people too.
So you need to pull it back tothe balance.
Take time out during the day.
Our brain, by the way, lovesthat.
This is where ideas come fromwhen I mentioned the jog, the
run earlier on.
When you're actually activelygoing out there to do something
(38:17):
totally different outside thenine to five, you're trying to
do other things in your life.
That's when solutions comethrough and you kind of go aha,
why didn't I think of thatbefore?
Simple things, but that's whathappens with stress.
Before you know it, it's likethe darkness of night just falls
at the end of autumn.
So you need to be able to havethe headlights on the whole time
, and to do that is to pull back.
(38:39):
I'm not saying go slower, I'msaying pull back.
Have a more holistic viewpoint,be more objective, as if you're
on the top of the mountain tobe able to see everything and to
put yourself in the center ofit all.
And if you do that, believe itor not, everything and everybody
around you will reciprocatefrom that, and then they'll see
that presence is greater thanyou first made out to be.
Jay Johnson (39:03):
I love that question what's it all for?
I think that's such a powerfulway for us to kind of realign
and just really kind of takeinto hey, where am I at, what do
I need to focus on, and what'sit all for Love that?
So this has been such afascinating conversation and I
knew that it would be, dr ConConnor, if our audience wanted
(39:24):
to get in touch with you, howwould they connect with you?
Dr. Conor Hogan (39:27):
Sure, yeah, you can get in touch on X Factor
Flow dot com.
So you have the X Factor andwe'll give you the flow.
Jay Johnson (39:36):
I love it.
Well, I want to say thank youfor taking the time to be here
with me I know that it's in thelater hours of the evening for
you and for making the time tocome and share your knowledge
and experience with the audienceand with me.
It's been a great conversation,so thank you.
Thank you, jay, and thank you,audience, for tuning into this
(39:57):
episode of the Talent Forgewhere, together, we're shaping
the workforce behaviors.
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