May 9, 2024 • 26 mins
Stephanie welcomes the Strongest Man in Kansas, and Partner with ThinkingAhead, JW Heflin, who lays out the benefits of being highly specialized, how to gain speed to market and great coverage, the mindset for turning around your down years, how to build 4 mega-valuable relationships off of a single piece of info, the importance of NOT throwing spaghetti at the wall, and... what keeps him from eating live young?
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Episode Transcript
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Stephanie Maas (00:00):
Welcome to The Talent Trade. I am Stephanie
(00:03):
Maas, Partner with ThinkingAheadExecutive Search. Today I am
super excited for our listeners.I'm going to be talking with JW
Heflin. He is also a partnerhere with ThinkingAhead and a JW
and I have worked together foryears. A few things that he may
(00:23):
not share that I think Iprobably should. J W's spirit
animal is the polar bear. JWalso, at one point in time
recently was the strongest manin Kansas, which always brings
me a lot of comfort knowing thatif we are ever in a situation,
and I have over indulged andneed to be carried out that as
(00:46):
long as I am with JW that canhappen in a safe way. So JW,
welcome to The Talent Trade.
JW Heflin (00:53):
Thanks, Stephanie. Thanks for having me. So yes, my
spirit animal is the polar bear,I think it's because I'm cute
and cuddly. Maybe if you get memad, I can get pretty ferocious.
It is because I am hot natured.And I like cold weather over hot
weather mostly. And yeah, I wasstrong once. Once.
Stephanie Maas (01:11):
As interesting as those fun facts are. We're
really here to talk about thetremendous success you've had
with ThinkingAhead, sharing yourcounsel and wisdom with our
listeners. So before we diveinto the wisdom side of things,
just share with us a little bitof your background.
JW Heflin (01:27):
Absolutely. It's not always rainbows and sunshine,
I've had my my bumps and bruisesalong the way, was hired in
November of 2015 Enjoyed itevery step of the way. My first
year, was a good success thatfollowing January, earned
partner status with the companythrough my billings in my
(01:49):
production next year, increasedmy production than the year
after that it dropped in theyear after that was the worst
year ever. So I've had my licksand bumps and bruises, basically
paid for an education inexecutive search that year. By
no means do I know everything.There's so much to still learn
(02:11):
and master and finesse in thisbusiness. And I think that's
truly what keeps me so engagedand enjoying what we do on a day
to day basis, because there'sstill so much to get good at.
Stephanie Maas (02:23):
So one of the things that I have noticed you
do particularly well is you arereally a master of your niche.
So share with our listeners alittle bit about your niche. And
I noticed gonna let you talk forquite a while. But the whole
thought process about beinghighly specialized, how have you
(02:43):
become specialized? What are theadvantages? Walk us through
everything that being a marketmaster entails? From your
perspective?
JW Heflin (02:52):
Great question. And I had to become a market master
because I didn't even know whatmy market was. When I started
when thinking I had hired me.They said, Hey, we kind of have
two areas you could focus on,you could cover commercial
banking, commercial lending inthe Midwest, and I go, I think I
kind of know what that is. Oryou could do this thing called
(03:14):
equipment, financing, leasing,and cover a national footprint.
And I go, I don't know what thatis. But that sounds interesting.
Let's do that. And I go, what'sequipment, finance and leasing?
You know, even to this day, Istill don't know that I truly
know what it is. But But jokingaside, that is the industry that
I focus in is equipment,finance, and leasing. And
(03:34):
recently that's expanded intomore of the specialty finance
and specialty lending in thefinancial services world. So
you're talking project finance,sponsor, finance, structure,
finance, a lot of things thathave finance after him is what
we do with it. And there's allnuances to it. In a nutshell,
(03:56):
it's specialty lending.
Stephanie Maas (03:58):
So tell us about this idea of being a market
master.
JW Heflin (04:02):
So the idea of being a market Master is just really
owning and knowing your spaceand being really good in that
arena. It does a few things. Asa recruiter, it helps you build
confidence so that you know whatyou're doing. Also, as a
recruiter, and as a consultantin the space, it adds
credibility to what you'redoing. Because when you're
(04:23):
having conversations withpresidents, with Chief Learning
officers with managing directorsthat run multibillion dollar
platforms, and you don't have aclue what they're doing, your
credibility is nil. So thelikelihood of them engaging you
to work and help them fillpositions is going to be very
(04:44):
limited. Now look, we all haveto start somewhere and we all
have to learn our markets andand learn our niches and through
that we become experts. That iswhere as a market master you
become very skillful and verygood with what you do. So when
you have a client that calls youand says, Hey, we need a credit,
(05:06):
underwriter in equipment,finance, we have really
exhausted all of our efforts, wethink we've interviewed 85
people, and we don't haveanything. When you're a market
Master, you can make three phonecalls. And those three phone
calls turn into two finalistcandidates. And one of them gets
hired in a matter of two weeks,where they've spent a few months
(05:26):
trying to find the right person.But that doesn't happen
overnight. You got to build intothat. So how do you build into
it? Well, the easiest way get onthe phone and talk to people.
That is the simplest and easiestway to become a market master is
the type of people that you wantto place in your industry, just
start talking to everyone buildthose relationships with those
(05:47):
people. Part of what we do issomewhat transactional. Because
we're matchmakers, we're we'retrying to make plug and play
people with clients. And sowe're trying to find that
perfect candidate, that's aperfect fit for that clients
that fills their need. Well,sometimes it's super simple,
sometimes it's a little bittougher. And the only way to
figure out really what yourclient's needs are in which
(06:10):
candidates fit that is to trulyknow your market. So you got to
know the different positionsthat are in your space. And the
easiest way to do that is starttalking and profiling and having
conversations with all of thosecandidates in those different
positions.
Stephanie Maas (06:26):
So put some legs under that table just for a
second, especially for some ofthe folks that might be newer in
the business, what do thoseconversations sound like?
JW Heflin (06:35):
So the conversations are really just diving into
profiling candidates, you know,the first question you're asking
them in terms of buildingrapport is just understanding
where they're at from a careerstandpoint, you know, are they
open to making a move, theycould either be actively
looking, they could be passive,they could be super happy with
(06:56):
where they are currently at. Buteveryone, even if they're super
happy, there is just so muchchange in our world, not just
financial services andequipment, finance, I'm talking
about the job market as a whole.There's so many variables that
go into it, elections, politics,the job market, the economy,
there's so many fluctuationsthat it would be ignorant of
(07:19):
someone to not at least be wiseof what's going on in the
marketplace, they can becompletely contented and happy.
That's perfectly fine. But theyalso need to know what's going
on in the marketplace, becausethe music does stop at times
whether they want it to or not.And so just find out, are they
open to making a move, then fromthere, dive into that? Hey, what
(07:40):
would make sense for you? Whatare you doing now is that
opportunity available with whereyou're at. And you just start to
understand what type ofpositions and what type of roles
they're looking for. And thenthrough that conversation, you
can have a follow upconversation where you dive
deeper into a lot of thosedetails with it. Hey, tell me
(08:01):
more about what it is exactlythat you do in your position?
What does success look like inyour role, you know, as you
compare yourself to the otherpeople that you compete with,
it's in the same title, sameposition, what makes you stand
out, you know, what makes yourise to the top of your field?
And what you do? And throughthose conversations, and through
(08:23):
asking good questions, you startto understand the nuances and
all the tangibles of thosepositions, by having a lot of
conversations, not just talkingto one or two people, but I'm
talking, having multiple,multiple, multiple
conversations, you start tofigure out who's a really good
(08:43):
producer, who's really great attheir job, versus people who are
very average at their job. Andyou start to understand why
certain people do make the jumpsthat they make, and why their
resumes may show that they'vehopped around quite a bit. That
just comes from multipleconversations, you can't read it
on the internet, you can'treally learn it just from
listening to other people, youhave to go experience and
(09:06):
understand that for yourself.You got to do the work.
Stephanie Maas (09:09):
So then you're on the phone all day having
these conversations, learningabout your niche. And then to
your previous point when aclient does call and need
somebody you know who to goafter?
JW Heflin (09:20):
Absolutely. It allows you to have speed to the
marketplace. You know, a perfectexample of this is recently
we've been talking and havingthese conversations that I'm
talking about the profile callswith candidates in a specific
position within my industry. Wedidn't have anything that we
were actively working on. So itwas just a very conversation to
(09:43):
learn about what type of rolesmakes sense for them. The
logistics of it. Are they greatat what they do? Are they
average at what they do? Arethey open to making a move and
where we kind of left theconversations is hey, when
something comes across our desk,that's a great fit. We'll give
you a Call, well, we get a phonecall from a client of ours that
says, hey, we need thisposition. And we got the call on
(10:06):
a Thursday. And we said, okay,give us a minute, we'll see
who's available in themarketplace, see who we can find
that fits all of thequalifications and criteria that
you're looking for. In an idealcandidate, by the following
Tuesday, three days later, wehad six candidates that are
qualified and vetted, to put infront of that client, that speed
(10:28):
that's coverage on a searchassignment. And the reason it
was so fast, and we had suchgood coverage is timing, met
opportunity. With that one, wehad already been doing the
groundwork of just the dailyblocking and tackling of what
we're supposed to do, and happento be calling and talking to a
lot of those individuals in thatspecific position. Boom, we get
(10:52):
a phone call, they need thosepeople, we go back, and we find
the best ones that we recentlytalked to, they already told us,
Hey, we're open for thisopportunity. We matched it up,
plug and play fit, boom, we go.We had six submittals right
there for the search. And notonly that, but you can, you can
always figure out how good yourcandidates are on whether or not
(11:15):
your clients can interview him.So they interview one out of the
six, you're like, Okay, I'm offthe target here, I don't think
I'm disconnected. Or I'm not onthe same page as my client in
terms of what they're lookingfor, versus what I'm showing. So
I need to ask more questions, toclarify and make sure I
understand what they're tellingme. In this scenario, we went
(11:36):
six for six, we presented sixcandidates, they interviewed all
six of them. So that is why youwant to be a market Master is it
allows you to be fast and quickwhen you have your clients call
you or when you're trying tochase down new business because
you have the database, thenetwork of people to call into.
And you know what they'relooking for.
Stephanie Maas (11:55):
And to what you just said, it's not just about
speed, it's about accuracy. Sothat perspective definitely
helps and definitely speaks tothe success that you've had. I
can imagine paying one of yourclients after months of trying
to look on their own through thevarious means that they have at
their fingertips, and then theycall you and three days later,
(12:17):
they're six outstandingqualified candidates, it kind of
makes our fee a moot point atthat junction, you're like,
Yeah, who cares what your fee iswe're hemorrhaging. And you're
showing up with with the surgeonand the sutures and all the
things that we need. Let me goin a different direction. So
that certainly helps understandthe success you've had you
mentioned early in the call thatyou've definitely had some off
(12:38):
years, walk me through what youattribute that to how your
market mastery helped pull youout of those down years. Speak
to that if you would, please.
JW Heflin (12:50):
Great question. So a couple of things from what I
remember. And again, this was afew years ago. And if I
remember, there was just somesome wonky, unique situations
that I dealt with, with someclients and candidates and just
changes in the markets. And youknow, the ups and downs of the
economy and stuff at that time.But I would say the biggest
(13:13):
takeaway is mindset. And thatwas one of the things that I
remember learning that year wastwo things. One is the this is
very much a mental game. I mean,what we do sounds very simple.
We just talk to people on thephone all day, we are calling
people, we usually have greatopportunities. And we're just
(13:34):
asking people, hey, does thissound great to you, who doesn't
want to hear about a job thatcould improve their career
situation, 95% of people aregoing to be very open to having
that conversation. So we justtalked to people. However, you
know, if it wasn't for thecandidates and clients, this job
would be absolutely amazing.Joking aside, we deal with
(13:54):
people. And when you're dealingwith something that is making a
change that is so emotionallyinvolved for individuals like a
career change, it ischallenging. And so that's where
one being a market master helpsyou be better at your job,
(14:15):
because you can help yourclients and your candidates do
due diligence through theinterview process. Now, let me
clarify that by saying we're nottrying to convince our
candidates or clients to accepta position or to hire a certain
person. That is not what I do.That is not what we do. Our job
(14:35):
is to present opportunities andfacilitate the conversations to
get their questions answered,and to find the best opportunity
for the candidate, but also tofind the best candidate for our
clients that the market can bearat that time. At the end of the
day. It's not our choice. Wedon't care if they choose our
(14:55):
position or if they choose ourcandidate. Our job is to help
them get Get to that yes or no,in a very quick, efficient
manner. And so doing that havingthat market knowledge, you can
help both sides do that. You cansay, hey, here's what's going on
in the market, candidates arebeing recruited very heavily
right now, here's yourcompetitors that are also
(15:16):
actively looking for the sametype of person. So if you like
this individual, and it seems tobe a good fit, let's move a
little bit quicker, doesn't meanwe skip steps. It means hey,
let's just try and get more ofthese steps done fairly quickly.
Same thing on the candidate sideis if they're looking at other
opportunities, talk to him hey,what makes sense? What do you
like about that opportunity? Ofthe ones you're looking at? How
(15:38):
would you rank it? Hey, here'swhat I'm hearing in the market,
about this company. So your nextconversation, you might want to
ask him questions around this.So you know, the full scope. And
so it allows you to provide yourmarket knowledge to both sides.
So they can ask really goodquestions to know if it truly is
a fit or not. Because how manytimes have we heard as
(16:01):
recruiters from candidates whereHey, why are you looking to
move? Oh, well, when I was inthe interview process, they said
it was this but when I actuallystarted the job, it's completely
different from what they told mewhat the job was. That is why we
exist. That is our contributionto this process, is to make sure
that both sides clearlyunderstand what each of them are
(16:21):
bringing into the situation. Sothere's no confusion. And so it
is a good fit. And when we dothat very effectively, that's
when we have our candidates thatstay for multiple years. In
addition, get promoted with thecompanies, we play some app for
someone who in six months,they're already looking for
another job, because we'rereally making sure it's a good
fit. Because we listen to what'simportant to our clients. And we
(16:44):
listen to what's important toour candidates. And we put the
two together, we're not throwingspaghetti against the wall to
see what sticks that getseveryone frustrated.
Stephanie Maas (16:53):
And I appreciate you sharing that, because what
I'm hearing but correct me ifI'm wrong, is this idea of this
market mastery helps you to besuccessful. But it also helps
pull you out when I mean, let'sface it, there are so many
uncontrollables in the world ofsearch, and there's very little
that we can control or onoccasion have influence over.
(17:15):
And either way, the marketmastery significantly impacts
your success level.
JW Heflin (17:22):
Absolutely. Another thing, another idea that works
in my industry. And I would saythat it probably works in most
industries. There's a fewdifferent websites that publish
press releases and publications.So I would assume just from buzz
and things that I've heardthrough conversations that most
industries will have some sortof press releases of, hey,
(17:44):
here's what's going on in ourindustry, here's the state of
the market. Here's the themovers and shakers, here's the
companies that are adding andgrowing, here's the ones that
are pulling back all thesuccesses, because everyone
loves the publicity. So as a newrecruiter, pay attention to that
stuff. And here's how it helpsyou, you find a press release,
(18:05):
and such and such company putsout a press release. And they
said, hey, great news. We justexpanded our our team. And we
added these three people to ourorganization. And they list the
names. They list where theyhired those individuals from and
kind of their background andhistory with it. And they're
(18:27):
excited to have this basically,they just have the press
release. So how does that helpus as recruiters? Well, helps us
a couple of ways. There's a lotof information that's in there
if you're looking at it theright way. And so here's how you
need to look at those pressreleases. What that does is that
gives you automatically threephone calls to those candidates
(18:49):
that just moved. If you haven'ttalked to him before, call them
congratulate them on the newrole that went to. Because what
do we just talk about?Sometimes, candidates are told
one thing in the interviewprocess, and something's
drastically different when theyget over there. And if that's
the case, who are they going tocall first? Probably the person
(19:09):
that just most recently calledhim and said congratulations on
your move, because they're topof mind. So there's three phone
calls right there that you canbuild a relationship with, with
people in your industry. Thefourth phone call is to that
client or to that company thatmaybe isn't a client because you
didn't place them there. Butmaybe you want to make him a
client because it's obviouslythey hire. So congratulate them
(19:33):
on hiring those three people.And that opens up the door to
ask them questions. Hey, greatjob on the on getting those
those people for thosepositions. How did you guys do
it? Was that people you knew inthe network? Was that? Did you
guys work with a recruiter onthat? You know, how long did it
take you? You know you can ask afew questions on that. But
again, you start building thatrelationship with them. But it
(19:56):
doesn't stop there. Those threepeople that just made a move
They came from somewhere. Sothere's potentially three open
positions out there in themarketplace with wherever those
individuals came from. So thoseare three more business
development calls, you can makethat maybe you can stumble into
a search assignment where theyneed help filling that position.
(20:19):
And so in one, press release,you end up getting six to seven
to eight phone calls out of it,just by reading three names in a
company. And that's awesome.That's an overlooked, but Easy
Way on how you become a marketmaster. And you build your
network. And eventually you getto the place where you have the
(20:40):
information before the pressrelease ever comes out. And then
the press release is like, oh,yeah, I knew that like two
months ago. And that's when youknow, you're like, Okay, I know
what's going on in my world. Andthen it's really fun to have
conversations with yourprospects in your clients,
because you're seen as thatexpert, and they're calling you
going, Hey, what are youhearing? This just happened? Or,
(21:01):
Hey, someone just announcedtheir retirement? Are you
working on that? What's goingon? Who's being considered as
candidates? And those are funconversations to have, because
you're not just the recruiterthat slings resumes. You're the
recruiter that's connected withthe right individuals in your
space. And you know, what'sgoing on in the industry.
Stephanie Maas (21:20):
What a difference between a vendor and
a partner. All right, you readyfor a little bit of fun, and
we'll wrap up?
JW Heflin (21:26):
Let's do it.
Stephanie Maas (21:27):
All right. Don't spend any time thinking. But do
you have your Outlook screenopen?
JW Heflin (21:32):
No.
Stephanie Maas (21:32):
Okay, we'll open it real quick.
JW Heflin (21:34):
Okay, it's open.
Stephanie Maas (21:35):
How many messages do you have in your
inbox?
JW Heflin (21:37):
53,000 total. 2,500 unread.
Stephanie Maas (21:40):
Ok so if anybody actually wants to get a hold of
JW do not email him. All right.Polar bears are known to eat
thier young, if they get toohungry. What are the top three
foods that keep you from eatingyour young?
JW Heflin (21:52):
Is that a true fact? You just make that up?
Stephanie Maas (21:54):
That's true.
JW Heflin (21:55):
I didn't know that about polar bears.
Stephanie Maas (21:56):
Yeah, I watched it on National Geographic.
JW Heflin (21:58):
And I really hope that's not why I'm a polar bear
as a spirit animal, that youguys think I eat my young.
Stephanie Maas (22:04):
Not unless there's more children that we
don't know about.
JW Heflin (22:06):
No, no. All right, so my three favorite foods. I
would say right now anythingthat involves a tortilla, that
seems to be my go to craving, Ican put anything inside of
tortilla and make a meal out ofit. On top of that. Love
barbecue and steak and hotwings. Those are my favorite.
Stephanie Maas (22:27):
So you're pretty much a vegetarian, then.
JW Heflin (22:29):
Exactly. If it's if it's green, and you put it in
front of me, it's gonna stay infront of me.
Stephanie Maas (22:34):
Ok, the youth are at risk. Got it. All right.
Where exactly did you go tocollege?
JW Heflin (22:41):
Oklahoma State.
Stephanie Maas (22:41):
And where exactly do you live?
JW Heflin (22:45):
I don't know if witness protection allows me to
disclose that information. No, Ilive in Wichita, Kansas.
Stephanie Maas (22:52):
Okay. And where did we meet?
JW Heflin (22:54):
You and I met at Gainesville, Florida many years
ago at a awards banquet for thesouthwestern company.
Stephanie Maas (23:04):
So I just want to clarify, I met you a Florida,
you went to school in Oklahoma,but you live in Kansas. So it's
fair to say that it makes sensewhy I have no idea where you
live where you went to school orunderstand the Florida
connection whatsoever.
JW Heflin (23:18):
It wouldn't make sense. Although I believe you're
the one who has coined thephrase that good recruiters are
good listeners and greatrecruiters are phenomenal
listeners. So I'll let theaudience just kind of draw their
own conclusions to that.
Stephanie Maas (23:32):
Yes, listening and retention are two very
different things.
JW Heflin (23:37):
There you go.
Stephanie Maas (23:38):
What do you like most about recruiting?
JW Heflin (23:40):
That's tough to kind of sum up, because there's a lot
of things that I enjoy with it.I love the flexibility that it
provides. I mean, this is trulya job you can do anywhere. And I
think when you are when you findsuccess, and you get to that
point where you've kind ofyou've paid your dues,
everyone's got to pay theirdues, and they come at varying
(24:01):
times, you know, sometimes wemay have a skyrocket to success
with it. But then, like me, youget some years where you really
pay your dues, and you're like,Okay, I'm getting the full
spectrum of this, when you'vepaid your dues and get good at
recruiting, you're really neverever going to be without a job,
you have developed a skill setand a talent that you could take
(24:24):
and do anywhere. Just because Irecruited an equipment finance
doesn't mean I couldn't besuccessful in a completely
different niche. Now, it maytake some time to build up to
it, but you have the foundationto do it. And if you have the
intestinal fortitude and thework ethic, you can be
successful in it. It's justgoing to take a little bit of
time and heavy lifting. So Ilove that because it's job
(24:49):
security in a sense. And thenthere's a lot of flexibility to
it. I mean, we are all we do.We're in front of a computer and
on a phone that's it, you know,we don't have to travel we don't
have to spend And, you know,5000 miles a month in a car,
seeing customers, shaking handskissing babies, we don't have to
fly to a different client everyother week. We get to go visit
(25:11):
our clients when we want to. Wecan go to conferences, we can go
visit them and do client visits.But that's a bonus. That's not
something that we have to do towin business and be successful.
So those are just some of thethings I like about being a
recruiter.
Stephanie Maas (25:24):
Well, man, thank you so much for being here. I am
confident our listeners haveenjoyed it as much as I have
enjoyed hosting with you a lotof incredible nuggets. Thank you
for sharing with us taking thetime putting the thought in, and
from everybody here at TheTalent Trade, JW Heflin, have an
(25:45):
awesome day.
Welcome to The Talent Trade. I am Stephanie
(00:03):
Maas, Partner with ThinkingAheadExecutive Search. Today I am
super excited for our listeners.I'm going to be talking with JW
Heflin. He is also a partnerhere with ThinkingAhead and a JW
and I have worked together foryears. A few things that he may
(00:23):
not share that I think Iprobably should. J W's spirit
animal is the polar bear. JWalso, at one point in time
recently was the strongest manin Kansas, which always brings
me a lot of comfort knowing thatif we are ever in a situation,
and I have over indulged andneed to be carried out that as
(00:46):
long as I am with JW that canhappen in a safe way. So JW,
welcome to The Talent Trade.
JW Heflin (00:53):
Thanks, Stephanie. Thanks for having me. So yes, my
spirit animal is the polar bear,I think it's because I'm cute
and cuddly. Maybe if you get memad, I can get pretty ferocious.
It is because I am hot natured.And I like cold weather over hot
weather mostly. And yeah, I wasstrong once. Once.
Stephanie Maas (01:11):
As interesting as those fun facts are. We're
really here to talk about thetremendous success you've had
with ThinkingAhead, sharing yourcounsel and wisdom with our
listeners. So before we diveinto the wisdom side of things,
just share with us a little bitof your background.
JW Heflin (01:27):
Absolutely. It's not always rainbows and sunshine,
I've had my my bumps and bruisesalong the way, was hired in
November of 2015 Enjoyed itevery step of the way. My first
year, was a good success thatfollowing January, earned
partner status with the companythrough my billings in my
(01:49):
production next year, increasedmy production than the year
after that it dropped in theyear after that was the worst
year ever. So I've had my licksand bumps and bruises, basically
paid for an education inexecutive search that year. By
no means do I know everything.There's so much to still learn
(02:11):
and master and finesse in thisbusiness. And I think that's
truly what keeps me so engagedand enjoying what we do on a day
to day basis, because there'sstill so much to get good at.
Stephanie Maas (02:23):
So one of the things that I have noticed you
do particularly well is you arereally a master of your niche.
So share with our listeners alittle bit about your niche. And
I noticed gonna let you talk forquite a while. But the whole
thought process about beinghighly specialized, how have you
(02:43):
become specialized? What are theadvantages? Walk us through
everything that being a marketmaster entails? From your
perspective?
JW Heflin (02:52):
Great question. And I had to become a market master
because I didn't even know whatmy market was. When I started
when thinking I had hired me.They said, Hey, we kind of have
two areas you could focus on,you could cover commercial
banking, commercial lending inthe Midwest, and I go, I think I
kind of know what that is. Oryou could do this thing called
(03:14):
equipment, financing, leasing,and cover a national footprint.
And I go, I don't know what thatis. But that sounds interesting.
Let's do that. And I go, what'sequipment, finance and leasing?
You know, even to this day, Istill don't know that I truly
know what it is. But But jokingaside, that is the industry that
I focus in is equipment,finance, and leasing. And
(03:34):
recently that's expanded intomore of the specialty finance
and specialty lending in thefinancial services world. So
you're talking project finance,sponsor, finance, structure,
finance, a lot of things thathave finance after him is what
we do with it. And there's allnuances to it. In a nutshell,
(03:56):
it's specialty lending.
Stephanie Maas (03:58):
So tell us about this idea of being a market
master.
JW Heflin (04:02):
So the idea of being a market Master is just really
owning and knowing your spaceand being really good in that
arena. It does a few things. Asa recruiter, it helps you build
confidence so that you know whatyou're doing. Also, as a
recruiter, and as a consultantin the space, it adds
credibility to what you'redoing. Because when you're
(04:23):
having conversations withpresidents, with Chief Learning
officers with managing directorsthat run multibillion dollar
platforms, and you don't have aclue what they're doing, your
credibility is nil. So thelikelihood of them engaging you
to work and help them fillpositions is going to be very
(04:44):
limited. Now look, we all haveto start somewhere and we all
have to learn our markets andand learn our niches and through
that we become experts. That iswhere as a market master you
become very skillful and verygood with what you do. So when
you have a client that calls youand says, Hey, we need a credit,
(05:06):
underwriter in equipment,finance, we have really
exhausted all of our efforts, wethink we've interviewed 85
people, and we don't haveanything. When you're a market
Master, you can make three phonecalls. And those three phone
calls turn into two finalistcandidates. And one of them gets
hired in a matter of two weeks,where they've spent a few months
(05:26):
trying to find the right person.But that doesn't happen
overnight. You got to build intothat. So how do you build into
it? Well, the easiest way get onthe phone and talk to people.
That is the simplest and easiestway to become a market master is
the type of people that you wantto place in your industry, just
start talking to everyone buildthose relationships with those
(05:47):
people. Part of what we do issomewhat transactional. Because
we're matchmakers, we're we'retrying to make plug and play
people with clients. And sowe're trying to find that
perfect candidate, that's aperfect fit for that clients
that fills their need. Well,sometimes it's super simple,
sometimes it's a little bittougher. And the only way to
figure out really what yourclient's needs are in which
(06:10):
candidates fit that is to trulyknow your market. So you got to
know the different positionsthat are in your space. And the
easiest way to do that is starttalking and profiling and having
conversations with all of thosecandidates in those different
positions.
Stephanie Maas (06:26):
So put some legs under that table just for a
second, especially for some ofthe folks that might be newer in
the business, what do thoseconversations sound like?
JW Heflin (06:35):
So the conversations are really just diving into
profiling candidates, you know,the first question you're asking
them in terms of buildingrapport is just understanding
where they're at from a careerstandpoint, you know, are they
open to making a move, theycould either be actively
looking, they could be passive,they could be super happy with
(06:56):
where they are currently at. Buteveryone, even if they're super
happy, there is just so muchchange in our world, not just
financial services andequipment, finance, I'm talking
about the job market as a whole.There's so many variables that
go into it, elections, politics,the job market, the economy,
there's so many fluctuationsthat it would be ignorant of
(07:19):
someone to not at least be wiseof what's going on in the
marketplace, they can becompletely contented and happy.
That's perfectly fine. But theyalso need to know what's going
on in the marketplace, becausethe music does stop at times
whether they want it to or not.And so just find out, are they
open to making a move, then fromthere, dive into that? Hey, what
(07:40):
would make sense for you? Whatare you doing now is that
opportunity available with whereyou're at. And you just start to
understand what type ofpositions and what type of roles
they're looking for. And thenthrough that conversation, you
can have a follow upconversation where you dive
deeper into a lot of thosedetails with it. Hey, tell me
(08:01):
more about what it is exactlythat you do in your position?
What does success look like inyour role, you know, as you
compare yourself to the otherpeople that you compete with,
it's in the same title, sameposition, what makes you stand
out, you know, what makes yourise to the top of your field?
And what you do? And throughthose conversations, and through
(08:23):
asking good questions, you startto understand the nuances and
all the tangibles of thosepositions, by having a lot of
conversations, not just talkingto one or two people, but I'm
talking, having multiple,multiple, multiple
conversations, you start tofigure out who's a really good
(08:43):
producer, who's really great attheir job, versus people who are
very average at their job. Andyou start to understand why
certain people do make the jumpsthat they make, and why their
resumes may show that they'vehopped around quite a bit. That
just comes from multipleconversations, you can't read it
on the internet, you can'treally learn it just from
listening to other people, youhave to go experience and
(09:06):
understand that for yourself.You got to do the work.
Stephanie Maas (09:09):
So then you're on the phone all day having
these conversations, learningabout your niche. And then to
your previous point when aclient does call and need
somebody you know who to goafter?
JW Heflin (09:20):
Absolutely. It allows you to have speed to the
marketplace. You know, a perfectexample of this is recently
we've been talking and havingthese conversations that I'm
talking about the profile callswith candidates in a specific
position within my industry. Wedidn't have anything that we
were actively working on. So itwas just a very conversation to
(09:43):
learn about what type of rolesmakes sense for them. The
logistics of it. Are they greatat what they do? Are they
average at what they do? Arethey open to making a move and
where we kind of left theconversations is hey, when
something comes across our desk,that's a great fit. We'll give
you a Call, well, we get a phonecall from a client of ours that
says, hey, we need thisposition. And we got the call on
(10:06):
a Thursday. And we said, okay,give us a minute, we'll see
who's available in themarketplace, see who we can find
that fits all of thequalifications and criteria that
you're looking for. In an idealcandidate, by the following
Tuesday, three days later, wehad six candidates that are
qualified and vetted, to put infront of that client, that speed
(10:28):
that's coverage on a searchassignment. And the reason it
was so fast, and we had suchgood coverage is timing, met
opportunity. With that one, wehad already been doing the
groundwork of just the dailyblocking and tackling of what
we're supposed to do, and happento be calling and talking to a
lot of those individuals in thatspecific position. Boom, we get
(10:52):
a phone call, they need thosepeople, we go back, and we find
the best ones that we recentlytalked to, they already told us,
Hey, we're open for thisopportunity. We matched it up,
plug and play fit, boom, we go.We had six submittals right
there for the search. And notonly that, but you can, you can
always figure out how good yourcandidates are on whether or not
(11:15):
your clients can interview him.So they interview one out of the
six, you're like, Okay, I'm offthe target here, I don't think
I'm disconnected. Or I'm not onthe same page as my client in
terms of what they're lookingfor, versus what I'm showing. So
I need to ask more questions, toclarify and make sure I
understand what they're tellingme. In this scenario, we went
(11:36):
six for six, we presented sixcandidates, they interviewed all
six of them. So that is why youwant to be a market Master is it
allows you to be fast and quickwhen you have your clients call
you or when you're trying tochase down new business because
you have the database, thenetwork of people to call into.
And you know what they'relooking for.
Stephanie Maas (11:55):
And to what you just said, it's not just about
speed, it's about accuracy. Sothat perspective definitely
helps and definitely speaks tothe success that you've had. I
can imagine paying one of yourclients after months of trying
to look on their own through thevarious means that they have at
their fingertips, and then theycall you and three days later,
(12:17):
they're six outstandingqualified candidates, it kind of
makes our fee a moot point atthat junction, you're like,
Yeah, who cares what your fee iswe're hemorrhaging. And you're
showing up with with the surgeonand the sutures and all the
things that we need. Let me goin a different direction. So
that certainly helps understandthe success you've had you
mentioned early in the call thatyou've definitely had some off
(12:38):
years, walk me through what youattribute that to how your
market mastery helped pull youout of those down years. Speak
to that if you would, please.
JW Heflin (12:50):
Great question. So a couple of things from what I
remember. And again, this was afew years ago. And if I
remember, there was just somesome wonky, unique situations
that I dealt with, with someclients and candidates and just
changes in the markets. And youknow, the ups and downs of the
economy and stuff at that time.But I would say the biggest
(13:13):
takeaway is mindset. And thatwas one of the things that I
remember learning that year wastwo things. One is the this is
very much a mental game. I mean,what we do sounds very simple.
We just talk to people on thephone all day, we are calling
people, we usually have greatopportunities. And we're just
(13:34):
asking people, hey, does thissound great to you, who doesn't
want to hear about a job thatcould improve their career
situation, 95% of people aregoing to be very open to having
that conversation. So we justtalked to people. However, you
know, if it wasn't for thecandidates and clients, this job
would be absolutely amazing.Joking aside, we deal with
(13:54):
people. And when you're dealingwith something that is making a
change that is so emotionallyinvolved for individuals like a
career change, it ischallenging. And so that's where
one being a market master helpsyou be better at your job,
(14:15):
because you can help yourclients and your candidates do
due diligence through theinterview process. Now, let me
clarify that by saying we're nottrying to convince our
candidates or clients to accepta position or to hire a certain
person. That is not what I do.That is not what we do. Our job
(14:35):
is to present opportunities andfacilitate the conversations to
get their questions answered,and to find the best opportunity
for the candidate, but also tofind the best candidate for our
clients that the market can bearat that time. At the end of the
day. It's not our choice. Wedon't care if they choose our
(14:55):
position or if they choose ourcandidate. Our job is to help
them get Get to that yes or no,in a very quick, efficient
manner. And so doing that havingthat market knowledge, you can
help both sides do that. You cansay, hey, here's what's going on
in the market, candidates arebeing recruited very heavily
right now, here's yourcompetitors that are also
(15:16):
actively looking for the sametype of person. So if you like
this individual, and it seems tobe a good fit, let's move a
little bit quicker, doesn't meanwe skip steps. It means hey,
let's just try and get more ofthese steps done fairly quickly.
Same thing on the candidate sideis if they're looking at other
opportunities, talk to him hey,what makes sense? What do you
like about that opportunity? Ofthe ones you're looking at? How
(15:38):
would you rank it? Hey, here'swhat I'm hearing in the market,
about this company. So your nextconversation, you might want to
ask him questions around this.So you know, the full scope. And
so it allows you to provide yourmarket knowledge to both sides.
So they can ask really goodquestions to know if it truly is
a fit or not. Because how manytimes have we heard as
(16:01):
recruiters from candidates whereHey, why are you looking to
move? Oh, well, when I was inthe interview process, they said
it was this but when I actuallystarted the job, it's completely
different from what they told mewhat the job was. That is why we
exist. That is our contributionto this process, is to make sure
that both sides clearlyunderstand what each of them are
(16:21):
bringing into the situation. Sothere's no confusion. And so it
is a good fit. And when we dothat very effectively, that's
when we have our candidates thatstay for multiple years. In
addition, get promoted with thecompanies, we play some app for
someone who in six months,they're already looking for
another job, because we'rereally making sure it's a good
fit. Because we listen to what'simportant to our clients. And we
(16:44):
listen to what's important toour candidates. And we put the
two together, we're not throwingspaghetti against the wall to
see what sticks that getseveryone frustrated.
Stephanie Maas (16:53):
And I appreciate you sharing that, because what
I'm hearing but correct me ifI'm wrong, is this idea of this
market mastery helps you to besuccessful. But it also helps
pull you out when I mean, let'sface it, there are so many
uncontrollables in the world ofsearch, and there's very little
that we can control or onoccasion have influence over.
(17:15):
And either way, the marketmastery significantly impacts
your success level.
JW Heflin (17:22):
Absolutely. Another thing, another idea that works
in my industry. And I would saythat it probably works in most
industries. There's a fewdifferent websites that publish
press releases and publications.So I would assume just from buzz
and things that I've heardthrough conversations that most
industries will have some sortof press releases of, hey,
(17:44):
here's what's going on in ourindustry, here's the state of
the market. Here's the themovers and shakers, here's the
companies that are adding andgrowing, here's the ones that
are pulling back all thesuccesses, because everyone
loves the publicity. So as a newrecruiter, pay attention to that
stuff. And here's how it helpsyou, you find a press release,
(18:05):
and such and such company putsout a press release. And they
said, hey, great news. We justexpanded our our team. And we
added these three people to ourorganization. And they list the
names. They list where theyhired those individuals from and
kind of their background andhistory with it. And they're
(18:27):
excited to have this basically,they just have the press
release. So how does that helpus as recruiters? Well, helps us
a couple of ways. There's a lotof information that's in there
if you're looking at it theright way. And so here's how you
need to look at those pressreleases. What that does is that
gives you automatically threephone calls to those candidates
(18:49):
that just moved. If you haven'ttalked to him before, call them
congratulate them on the newrole that went to. Because what
do we just talk about?Sometimes, candidates are told
one thing in the interviewprocess, and something's
drastically different when theyget over there. And if that's
the case, who are they going tocall first? Probably the person
(19:09):
that just most recently calledhim and said congratulations on
your move, because they're topof mind. So there's three phone
calls right there that you canbuild a relationship with, with
people in your industry. Thefourth phone call is to that
client or to that company thatmaybe isn't a client because you
didn't place them there. Butmaybe you want to make him a
client because it's obviouslythey hire. So congratulate them
(19:33):
on hiring those three people.And that opens up the door to
ask them questions. Hey, greatjob on the on getting those
those people for thosepositions. How did you guys do
it? Was that people you knew inthe network? Was that? Did you
guys work with a recruiter onthat? You know, how long did it
take you? You know you can ask afew questions on that. But
again, you start building thatrelationship with them. But it
(19:56):
doesn't stop there. Those threepeople that just made a move
They came from somewhere. Sothere's potentially three open
positions out there in themarketplace with wherever those
individuals came from. So thoseare three more business
development calls, you can makethat maybe you can stumble into
a search assignment where theyneed help filling that position.
(20:19):
And so in one, press release,you end up getting six to seven
to eight phone calls out of it,just by reading three names in a
company. And that's awesome.That's an overlooked, but Easy
Way on how you become a marketmaster. And you build your
network. And eventually you getto the place where you have the
(20:40):
information before the pressrelease ever comes out. And then
the press release is like, oh,yeah, I knew that like two
months ago. And that's when youknow, you're like, Okay, I know
what's going on in my world. Andthen it's really fun to have
conversations with yourprospects in your clients,
because you're seen as thatexpert, and they're calling you
going, Hey, what are youhearing? This just happened? Or,
(21:01):
Hey, someone just announcedtheir retirement? Are you
working on that? What's goingon? Who's being considered as
candidates? And those are funconversations to have, because
you're not just the recruiterthat slings resumes. You're the
recruiter that's connected withthe right individuals in your
space. And you know, what'sgoing on in the industry.
Stephanie Maas (21:20):
What a difference between a vendor and
a partner. All right, you readyfor a little bit of fun, and
we'll wrap up?
JW Heflin (21:26):
Let's do it.
Stephanie Maas (21:27):
All right. Don't spend any time thinking. But do
you have your Outlook screenopen?
JW Heflin (21:32):
No.
Stephanie Maas (21:32):
Okay, we'll open it real quick.
JW Heflin (21:34):
Okay, it's open.
Stephanie Maas (21:35):
How many messages do you have in your
inbox?
JW Heflin (21:37):
53,000 total. 2,500 unread.
Stephanie Maas (21:40):
Ok so if anybody actually wants to get a hold of
JW do not email him. All right.Polar bears are known to eat
thier young, if they get toohungry. What are the top three
foods that keep you from eatingyour young?
JW Heflin (21:52):
Is that a true fact? You just make that up?
Stephanie Maas (21:54):
That's true.
JW Heflin (21:55):
I didn't know that about polar bears.
Stephanie Maas (21:56):
Yeah, I watched it on National Geographic.
JW Heflin (21:58):
And I really hope that's not why I'm a polar bear
as a spirit animal, that youguys think I eat my young.
Stephanie Maas (22:04):
Not unless there's more children that we
don't know about.
JW Heflin (22:06):
No, no. All right, so my three favorite foods. I
would say right now anythingthat involves a tortilla, that
seems to be my go to craving, Ican put anything inside of
tortilla and make a meal out ofit. On top of that. Love
barbecue and steak and hotwings. Those are my favorite.
Stephanie Maas (22:27):
So you're pretty much a vegetarian, then.
JW Heflin (22:29):
Exactly. If it's if it's green, and you put it in
front of me, it's gonna stay infront of me.
Stephanie Maas (22:34):
Ok, the youth are at risk. Got it. All right.
Where exactly did you go tocollege?
JW Heflin (22:41):
Oklahoma State.
Stephanie Maas (22:41):
And where exactly do you live?
JW Heflin (22:45):
I don't know if witness protection allows me to
disclose that information. No, Ilive in Wichita, Kansas.
Stephanie Maas (22:52):
Okay. And where did we meet?
JW Heflin (22:54):
You and I met at Gainesville, Florida many years
ago at a awards banquet for thesouthwestern company.
Stephanie Maas (23:04):
So I just want to clarify, I met you a Florida,
you went to school in Oklahoma,but you live in Kansas. So it's
fair to say that it makes sensewhy I have no idea where you
live where you went to school orunderstand the Florida
connection whatsoever.
JW Heflin (23:18):
It wouldn't make sense. Although I believe you're
the one who has coined thephrase that good recruiters are
good listeners and greatrecruiters are phenomenal
listeners. So I'll let theaudience just kind of draw their
own conclusions to that.
Stephanie Maas (23:32):
Yes, listening and retention are two very
different things.
JW Heflin (23:37):
There you go.
Stephanie Maas (23:38):
What do you like most about recruiting?
JW Heflin (23:40):
That's tough to kind of sum up, because there's a lot
of things that I enjoy with it.I love the flexibility that it
provides. I mean, this is trulya job you can do anywhere. And I
think when you are when you findsuccess, and you get to that
point where you've kind ofyou've paid your dues,
everyone's got to pay theirdues, and they come at varying
(24:01):
times, you know, sometimes wemay have a skyrocket to success
with it. But then, like me, youget some years where you really
pay your dues, and you're like,Okay, I'm getting the full
spectrum of this, when you'vepaid your dues and get good at
recruiting, you're really neverever going to be without a job,
you have developed a skill setand a talent that you could take
(24:24):
and do anywhere. Just because Irecruited an equipment finance
doesn't mean I couldn't besuccessful in a completely
different niche. Now, it maytake some time to build up to
it, but you have the foundationto do it. And if you have the
intestinal fortitude and thework ethic, you can be
successful in it. It's justgoing to take a little bit of
time and heavy lifting. So Ilove that because it's job
(24:49):
security in a sense. And thenthere's a lot of flexibility to
it. I mean, we are all we do.We're in front of a computer and
on a phone that's it, you know,we don't have to travel we don't
have to spend And, you know,5000 miles a month in a car,
seeing customers, shaking handskissing babies, we don't have to
fly to a different client everyother week. We get to go visit
(25:11):
our clients when we want to. Wecan go to conferences, we can go
visit them and do client visits.But that's a bonus. That's not
something that we have to do towin business and be successful.
So those are just some of thethings I like about being a
recruiter.
Stephanie Maas (25:24):
Well, man, thank you so much for being here. I am
confident our listeners haveenjoyed it as much as I have
enjoyed hosting with you a lotof incredible nuggets. Thank you
for sharing with us taking thetime putting the thought in, and
from everybody here at TheTalent Trade, JW Heflin, have an
(25:45):
awesome day.
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