October 20, 2021 • 42 mins
We've seen it time and again in divorce cases. When adultery happens, sometimes the adulterer has no clue what kind of pain they are causing. It's almost like folks have blinders. While most states have "no-fault" divorce, the pain of an affair can adversely affect agreement readiness during divorce negations whether courts recognizes fault or not. In this episode, Divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA® Financial Divorce Consultant; Scott Weiner, Psychologist, Attorney and Mediator; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F* Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney, discuss the psychology and emotional ramifications of adultery on divorce negotiations.
The Three Wisemen of Divorce are divorce experts Mark C. Hill, CFP®, CDFA®, Financial Divorce Consultant; Peter Roussos, MA, MFT, CST, psychotherapist; and Shawn Weber, CLS-F*, Family Law Mediator and Divorce Attorney.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shawn Weber (00:00):
Well, I think I got enough goofy stuff for the
intro.
Yeah, Please edit out some ofthat.
Oh no, I'm gonna include yourstory, complete with F word so
that we have to have an explicitlanguage advisory.
You know what if we did that ourviewers, people viewing it would
go up by probably 30%.
(00:21):
But you're probably, you know,maybe I could put like a beep in
there.
Yeah, no, please don't, pleasedon't let that one go through.
Okay, I won't.
Welcome to the three wisemen ofdivorce, money, psych, and law
podcast. Sit down with theCalifornia divorce experts,
(00:42):
financial divorce consultant,Mark Hill, psychologist Scott
Weiner, and attorney ShawnWeber, for a frank and casual
conversation about divorce,separation, co parenting, and
the difficult decisions, realpeople like you face during
these tough times. We know thatif you're looking at divorce or
separation, it can be scary andoverwhelming. With combined
(01:05):
experience of over 70 years ofdivorce and conflict management,
we are here for you and lookforward to helping by sharing
our unique ideas, thoughts andperspectives on divorce,
separation, and co parenting.
Okay, so you've you've probablyhad this case come up guys,
right? Where there's a divorcingcouple. And one party has left
(01:31):
the other party, you know, youhave a levy and a lever. And
they've left the other party fora new person. And for some
reason, the person that got leftis not happy about that. Have
you ever encountered that kindof effect pattern? It does
happen, where the person that isleft is unhappy about being left
(01:51):
for another prettier, morehandsome person?
Scott Weiner (01:55):
Does it ever not happen?
Shawn Weber (01:59):
That's a very common fact better, right?
Scott Weiner (02:01):
Yeah,
Shawn Weber (02:01):
this happens a lot too is the person that left is
very confused as to why theperson that is being left is
unhappy and says and I quote,"why can't you be happy for me?"
Scott Weiner (02:17):
It's so hilarious.
Why are you? So So somebody? I,you know, in current times when
there's this huge divide betweenthe 1% and the 99% of the
others. I'm imagining a onepercenter walking by some rather
(02:38):
hungry, disheveled lookinghomeless person saying, Why
can't you be happy for me? Whycan't you it's
Shawn Weber (02:50):
I worked hard for this
Scott Weiner (02:52):
well, or I didn't
Shawn Weber (02:54):
at your expense, but I did.
Scott Weiner (02:55):
Maybe, maybe, maybe?
Why can't you be happy for me?
Shawn Weber (03:02):
And they really mean it to I mean, they're
really confused as to why theperson that you had you stepped
out on and are now divorcing?
why that person is not justthrilled for you?
Scott Weiner (03:17):
Are they really?
Are they really that confused?
Or are they just wishing, kindof a free pass to enjoy their
good fortune after the fact? Imean, are they actually your,
their behavior does often bespeak a kind of confusion? Why
(03:42):
can't you be happy for me? Yeah.
You know, there's a differencebetween sincere and rhetorical
questions. People say thosethings, they say, Why can't you
be happy for me? And I wassaying that, that's not really
even an honest question. Mosttimes from a communications
point of view. When I say, Well,why don't that why doesn't that
(04:03):
guy do this? Or that or theother? I'm really not asking.
Why doesn t I'm really, it's arhetorical statement, I am
urging that he should do it.
When you say why can't they behappy for me, I'm saying you
should be happy for me and Iwant you to be happy for me. And
I don't want the conflict thatcomes from feeling that
(04:26):
reasonable guilt of havingdumped my other for this, you
know, new Tesla Model that justcame along you know,
Shawn Weber (04:40):
I, I think you're generally right. But I have seen
genuine puzzlement, alright outto two or three occasions in my
career, where I I just thinkthey couldn't see anything but
their own perception. Theycouldn't put themselves in the
place of anybody but them
Scott Weiner (04:59):
but you You did already pose the theory to cover
that, or Shawn did, which isthere, you know, I mean,
narcissism with a small n is ahealthy component of all of us,
you have to have some sort oftake care of yourself, be good
to yourself, or you won't be anygood for anything. But when we
(05:20):
when we cross a line, and webecome completely ignorant of
how other people might I don'tknow
Shawn Weber (05:30):
Well people get blinders on, don't they. So they
kind of get into their, I thinkof blinders, like on a horse
where you can only see what's infront of you. And not really
being aware of what's going onaround you as you're forging
ahead. And here's this person,you know, let's say it's a guy,
and he's got the new honey, andshe makes him feel really good.
(05:53):
And she's good in bed. And hefeels alive. Maybe he had a mid
life crisis.
Scott Weiner (06:00):
Did you say a midwife for midlife?
Shawn Weber (06:02):
I think it came out midwife. Yeah, you did. life
crisis. You know, and he feelsloved. And he feels sexy for the
first time in years. And so he'sso focused on how good he feels.
And how wonderful thisexperience is that there's just
an assumption that everybodymust feel wonderful about him
(06:22):
having this experience toincluding the person he's
leaving.
Scott Weiner (06:28):
Do you really find that believable that he actually
believes that? I mean, Mark saysthat once or twice in his
experience he's seen, he's seenthat occur. And I believe that
Shawn Weber (06:40):
Yeah, I've seen it happen. Yeah,
Scott Weiner (06:42):
yeah, it's why can't now let's let's let's
alter the story a little bit.
Let's go. Hmm. What's a goodperiod of time seven or eight
years down the line? wheneverybody's had a chance for
this divorce to essentially dustis settled after the affair.
Yeah, there's it's shaked outand it's almost like maybe they
(07:04):
have kids they meet and theyhave coffee from time to time to
talk about well, you know,
Shawn Weber (07:10):
you see stuff mistress or is no, no,
Scott Weiner (07:13):
yeah, our son, our son, Freddy Krueger has stopped
terrorizing the, you know, kidsin school, and, and our other
boy, Chucky is behaving muchbetter. You know, we let them
around the kitchen knives now.
And Oh, and by the way, I have anew lady love, you know? And,
and, and she returns to thatjealousy and stuff like that,
(07:36):
and all that are angry. And thenhe might reasonably say, can't
you be happy for me? I mean,we're down the line. Now
Shawn Weber (07:43):
down the line, is this right didn't happen during
the marriage. You're saying thishappened seven years after the
marriage?
Right? Right. That seems moreunderstandable and reasonable,
right? Especially because theremay have been relationships that
the other spouses add duringthat period?
Well, I will say this, if I'mgoing to have a problem on a
case, especially when there'skids involved post judgment.
(08:07):
It's going to be when the newsignificant other shows up. You
know, and you're amazed. I mean,even the person that asked for
the divorce, like I had a caselike this, she asked for the
divorce.
Scott Weiner (08:18):
I think I know it,
Shawn Weber (08:19):
you know, the one we're talking about she after
the divorce, and he at some timeafter the divorce was final, has
a new person, and then she hasan absolute cow over it, that
he's with the new person becomesincredibly jealous. And that
(08:42):
always kind of puzzled me. Youknow, you you wanted this. He's
finally moving on. And nowyou're angry. You know, so that
happens to and it seems I feellike we're picking on women. I
mean, this happens in bothdirections, right? It's not
gender specific. I've seen womenhave affairs or have new
significant others and the menget jealous.
Scott Weiner (09:02):
Absolutely.
Shawn Weber (09:02):
And I've seen the argument made on behalf of the
person that saying, Why can'tyou be happy for me? Look,
you've been miserable for years,I've heard from you for years,
how miserable you've been. I'mgiving you the opportunity to
find what I have found,oh, I had that one a couple of
weeks ago, the wife is the onethat had the new relationship.
And she said, I thought youwould be glad that I left. You
(09:24):
know you weren't happy duringthe marriage. You made that very
clear to me throughout themarriage that you're unhappy.
And now I'm with a new personand you're angry at me about
well, what causes that? Whywould a person be angry when
they were miserable? The wholemarriage?
Scott Weiner (09:43):
Well, we're assuming that the only dimension
of of wanting a loyalty in thisand the other is this
affiliative connection. Thereare other dimensions there's,
you know, there's other reasonsthat we can be Jealous, it. You
know, a lot of times thedynamics of these relationships
(10:07):
are. It's this It sounds so canto say it, but it's almost
reflective of family of origin.
It's almost like I see a lot ofcouples issues as being almost
brother and sister rages that goon, you know who's more worthy,
who's more deserving of therespect of others? Who's this?
(10:31):
Who's that as the other. Andit's sort of like, it's like a
pecking order thing. You want toget biblical about it. Go ahead,
Jacob and Esau get going, youknow, it's sort of like, this is
old stuff. This is so core forus, these old jealousies, that
they're reflected in all theirreligious writings, that's all
(10:52):
their
Shawn Weber (10:55):
mother liked you more than me.
Scott Weiner (10:58):
Well, then there's that one, too, you know,
Shawn Weber (11:02):
but there's that often with the in-laws too.
Sometimes you get an in law whoreally likes the Yeah, the
daughter in Oh, yeah, thatcreates problems for the spouse.
Scott Weiner (11:16):
Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And you don't even need a
divorce for that one.
Shawn Weber (11:21):
Probably cause one.
Well,
Scott Weiner (11:24):
I mean, I, I stayed with you because I like
your mother, you know.
Shawn Weber (11:31):
I think there's a country song. I won't miss her.
But I'll miss her dad.
Well, like that Jim Reeves song,she took the house and left it
was a mobile home.
Scott Weiner (11:50):
Okay, okay.
Shawn Weber (11:52):
Well, there's a need isn't there, there's an
emotional need that is not beingmet. When a person strays. I'm
not saying I'm not trying todefend the adulterer. Right. But
these things don't happen in avacuum. Would you agree with
that or am I,
Scott Weiner (12:14):
I would agree with that, but not with the idea that
it's, I mean, there, there areemotional needs that we have of
each other, that are fair toask. And then there's dependency
needs that are too powerful tobe met by, you know, just some
other person and then the stringcan be as much for string isn't
(12:40):
always wholesome. Okay. stringis not always well, you know,
there was just this reasonableneed that I wasn't. Yeah, you
know, it can be for crazy unmetdependency needs to
Shawn Weber (12:54):
I think most people who say straying is definitely
not wholesome.
Scott Weiner (12:58):
Well, yeah. But you're talking about when
there's a need that's not beingmet. Yeah.
Mark Hill (13:03):
But there's this cereal strayers...
Scott Weiner (13:04):
, not all, not all men are created equal, shall we
say that?
Shawn Weber (13:08):
I think there are people who, who, essentially
that is their go to defaultposition if I'm not getting what
I want, I will stray and thereare people who do that and then
there are others I think whogenuinely fall into a
relationship at a time when theydon't you know, they weren't
(13:30):
unnecessarily seeking it. Ithink there's there's different
shades of grey on this spectrumhere.
There's a there's a lot of gray,you know, I
Scott Weiner (13:39):
maybe about 50
Shawn Weber (13:41):
What's that? 50 Shades of Grey shades.
You would know better than Icounselor.
psychologists and all your sextalk.
Scott Weiner (13:56):
void. I don't know whether our voyeurism or our
hypocrisy is more remarkable.
It's hard for me to tell. I
Shawn Weber (14:04):
Well, that's what we have you here for to make
those kinds of decisions on.
Yeah, I
Scott Weiner (14:08):
see. I see why I've said before that I think
that sometimes we're paidprofessional hypocrites, but
okay. Alright. So yes, there'sthere's some kind of, I mean,
some kind of tropism some kindof turning toward a, an
experience that a person wants.
Yes, that that is a valuelessassertion. However, you know,
Shawn Weber (14:35):
I'm not here trying to argue that you're justified
when you stray. I'm just saying,there's a reason why people
stray that could be explored andit could help to understand it.
I had a case I think I'vementioned this case before in
this podcast, where the womanalways looked like she'd
(14:57):
swallowed a lemon. She was veryangry. Because he had an affair,
and she always referred to themistress throughout the
proceeding, the mistress thatthe mistress this, and he would
come back and he would say,well, divorce doesn't happen in
a vacuum. There's a reason why Ileft because you were a cold,
(15:17):
horrible person to be around younever met my needs, he wouldn't
sleep with me. You were alwayscruel to me. And so I left and
her response was, Well, you knowwhat I would rather you just
left and then gotten with yourmistress, why did you have to
get with your mistress while youwere married? To me? That would
have been much more, you know,be a man is what she said, you
(15:39):
know, you should have been abeen You shouldn't have, right?
That's exactly. And so that was,you know, and I know I'm getting
into kind of a moralisticargument here. But But I mean,
my point in bringing it all upis there were two very clear
points of view and a lot of hurtgoing on.
And let me take this back up to,you know, 30,000 feet and say,
how did that impact the processof the divorce? And how much
(16:04):
more difficult was it? Andbecause I do recall you talking
about this space, and there wassome resolution that occurred,
but getting that resolution atearliest stage in the case I
would have suspected would havemade it smoother.
Yes, I mean, she was very angry.
And, Scott, I think you've toldme this, that anger is a
(16:25):
secondary emotion. Right, that?
Well, that's
Scott Weiner (16:28):
I say that that that's one of the conventional
theories. Yes.
Shawn Weber (16:32):
Yeah.
Scott Weiner (16:34):
But that, at least in many cases, I've seen it be
true.
Shawn Weber (16:39):
She was very wounded. Yes, yes, he was very
wounded. She was very hurt, shewas angry at him. She didn't
want to cooperate with him in COparenting. And so I think the
kids were going to sufferbecause of that. She wanted him
to pay. She wanted him to, tohave to suffer for what he did.
(17:00):
And the problem and the problemis we're you know, we're in
California, which is a no faultstate. And, you know, I've told
people, you know, when I used todo litigation, I used to say,
you know, he could go out andsleep with every chargers
cheerleader that's begging thecharges, we're still in San
Diego, with every chargerscheerleader different went every
night, and the court wouldn'tcare. You know, and because
(17:23):
people are looking for some kindof retribution, some kind of
justice for what he did to me,or what she did to me. And
that's not available legally. Sothen I had to explore with that
family as the mediator. Couldshe have, in essence, an
opportunity to clarify what hedid? And what that meant to her?
(17:50):
And what pain that caused her?
Could that be expressed in a waythat would then allow them to be
able to go on to settlement?
And, and that's what we did? Youknow, we gave her that forum,
and then they got to settlement?
Well, the great thing about thatis they actually came into
mediation. Because many peoplewho are that angry just want the
(18:13):
retribution of the gladiatorattorney going out and fighting
the good fight on their behalf.
And credit to both of them thatthey made that they actually
came into mediation. Yeah, Imean, they had a lot of, they
had a lot of, there was a lot ofemotionality going on there.
And, and I got to give hercredit, she was very angry, it
was very challenging at thebeginning of the case, but then
(18:34):
she got to a place where she wasquite reasonable. And if
anything, he became moreproblematic
Scott Weiner (18:41):
to me, but I gotta give credit to the mediator, the
fact that you that you installedthat process for them, and saw
that as a potential windowthrough which they could perhaps
pass and get to another level ofsettlement. Uh, I mean, I'm not
wearing a hat. But if I had whenI take it off to you,
Shawn Weber (19:05):
well,
Mark Hill (19:06):
but let's compare what would have happened in a
litigated case. In that case,you would have had the ability
of the talented attorney. Ithink I've told this story
before, but a colleague of minefrom San Francisco started with
the big firm many, many, manyyears ago, she told me that they
(19:26):
had a partner who specialized injilted women as clients. And his
comment to the woman was, and hewould repeat it in pretty much
every case, then we will rip outhis lying heart. That was
exactly the phrase he would usein order to gather clients
essentially, and go through alitigious process to try to that
(19:51):
retribution you were talkingabout.
Shawn Weber (19:52):
I had a former business partner she was an old
school litigator and she wouldtell people we're going to get
his left testicle on a silverplate
Scott Weiner (20:02):
I gotta ask a question. In a in a common law
state, can you get retributionfor?
Shawn Weber (20:11):
Well, there are some states that are still were
fault is still an element. Andthey can affect outcomes. Not in
California, but not inCalifornia. But there are some
states where where fault is anelement thing. Georgia was one
of them. Yeah. And there's beena big debate as to whether
(20:33):
polling falls out of divorceproceedings was actually
positive. Because what happensnow is you go to court Yeah, the
judge doesn't have to thread theneedle and figure out who caused
this marriage. Yeah. But whatyou have then is you have no
processing happening so thenanybody brings up affairs then
the litigating attorney standsup objection relevance
(20:56):
irrelevant Yeah. Because itwhether he had an affair is not
relevant or she had an affair.
You can bring affairs intoCalifornia proceedings through
the breach of fiduciary dutyargument though
and through the way money wasspent
correct so he he spent money onher $30,000 tennis bracelet you
(21:17):
know for the mistress now we'vegot an issue that is relevant
and you can bring you can bringit into the into of the story,
butthat just because he chose to go
out with her the night of theiranniversary, that's not going to
have any difference to the case.
The fact that he had a lyingcheating heart that we're going
to pull out well, no matter
Scott Weiner (21:38):
and the Adjust the adjustment in property for that
$30,000 tennis bracelet. It's 15grand.
Shawn Weber (21:45):
Yeah, exactly.
Well, unless unless he defraudedher you say case, it could be
30. Could be 30. Yeah, it can.
It depends on you know, what hisbehavior was, like, if he came
clean and Okay, then we'll justwe'll make those adjustments.
Scott Weiner (22:00):
I see. So, there can be a discouragement term
there if there's fraud,fiduciary fraud Yeah, or
Shawn Weber (22:07):
you know, I also had the case where this was
early in my career and thehusband it's these poor man,
it's always the man I'm pickingon but it usually is.
Scott Weiner (22:17):
Let's face it, come on.
Shawn Weber (22:18):
It's sometimes it's the women but he had cleaned out
their 401k and had spent it onlap dances and pornography. It's
a lot of porn are really tiny.
401k it was a whole lot ofmoney. He was pulling out and it
was it was six figures. Hmm.
(22:40):
Wow. And judge said that was nota breach of fiduciary duty. He
had a right to do that. That wasjust you know, that benefited
the community.
Scott Weiner (22:52):
Which community was he speaking of?
Shawn Weber (22:54):
I don't know.
Scott Weiner (22:55):
I think I have a hunch
Shawn Weber (22:57):
I was dumbfounded when that was going on and I use
that as my example of you neverknow what a judge is gonna do.
I had a case years ago wherehusband had chosen to invest in
a business for the mistress orthe new girlfriend and didn't
come clean to wife about it.
Yeah, that that was consideredan abusive fiduciary duty
(23:24):
you know, you see a lot of theseguys yeah,
because actually the businessdid really well. But she wasn't
going to benefit from it youknow, because he had us separate
property funds for it. It wasvery complicated but they
interesting was an interestingcase because as I found out a
long time after I was involvedwith it, the judge actually did
(23:48):
side with the wife's positionyou know that she had been
excluded from an investmentopportunity and just because it
was with the the girlfriend sheshould have had the opportunity
to participate in it so he endedup writing or a jack I think for
like 50,000 or something soyeah, we see that or you know,
we get a lot of these peoplethey're crying fat they're
(24:10):
crying poor I'm poor. I don'thave any money while they're
driving around on theirgirlfriend's mother Roddy. Yes,
right. It's not theirgirlfriend's mother it is their
mother it but they put it intheir girlfriend's name so they
can hide it. And and, but I willsay this to people that try that
kind of garbage. You always getcaught. It's not something
(24:30):
that's really smart to try toplay those games because the
forensic accountants that haveseen every trick in the book can
spot these things prettyquickly. There's not any trick
that you can dream up that theyhaven't already seen. Yeah.
Scott Weiner (24:49):
So when I'm going to ask my wife and I'm driving
my my, you know, my mistress'sMaserati around. And I'm going
to ask her, why aren't you happyfor me.
Shawn Weber (25:02):
Why aren't you happy?
Mark Hill (25:03):
Don't you get to ride in the Maserati every night?
Shawn Weber (25:05):
Why Are youbeing so selfish? Why? Why can't you just
let me be happy?
Scott Weiner (25:11):
Why, why why?
Yeah, so
Shawn Weber (25:13):
Okay, well, what's the moral of the story? We've
been talking around this issueand we've, what can we learn
from this,I think there's one thing we've
listening is that unresolvedissues around hurt. And anger
will make the divorce case moreexpensive, more painful and take
longer. I think that so ifthere's a way to get past that,
(25:39):
not to necessarily forgive, butto be heard, and to be
acknowledged, that your positionhas been heard, that often goes
a long way, you don'tnecessarily get resolution,
we're not talking about maritaltherapy to get them back
together.
(26:00):
But being able to address Ithink, where we you know, in our
approach, when we do thingsoutside of court, like giving
people a forum where even thoughlegally, it may not be relevant,
letting people address it, tosome extent, can allow for a
pathway to settlement can givepeople an environment where the
(26:21):
case can settle. Because ifpeople are just kind of just
filled with anger, and rage, andpain, and hurt, and all of that,
it makes it very hard for folksto think clearly enough to be
able to reach a settlement.
Because it's always clouded by Ican't believe I have to share
with this person that did me sowrong.
(26:43):
And I think that's the conceptof settlement readiness. There
comes a point when we have allthe financial information we
need. So financially, we may besettlement ready. But
nonetheless, unless they'reemotionally ready to end their
battle. And that's often what itcomes down to, they're not going
to complete the case in asatisfactory way. So I think
(27:08):
getting people to that point.
And I think the takeaway is, youknow, if you if there is anger,
in your case that's spillingover into your negotiations, you
should encourage, we wouldencourage you to be engaging a
mental health professional or tohelp you through that part of
it, because it's the most costeffective way of getting your
case done.
(27:29):
Yeah, and I want to clarify, notengaged in mental health
professional because we thinkyou're crazy. You know, what
we're saying is engaged inmental health professional so
you can get a grasp on thisemotionality that is infecting
the ability for you to makeclear, logical choices,
and to be able to communicatewith each other. Yeah, it's
really about they always thinkabout the coaches being
(27:51):
communication specialists, youknow, no marriage breaks down
unless there's been some degreeof communication, failure.
You know, there's the Truth andReconciliation committee in
South Africa. Yeah, next to thegreat Nelson Mandela. And there
was a lot of hurt that went onin South Africa through
(28:12):
apartheid. And the Truth andReconciliation committee, the
whole point of it was to be ableto speak truth and to be able to
tell your story.
And without the anticipation forretribution,
correct. Just add to it. Tellyour story. How were you hurt
the person that was the victim?
What did you do the person thatcaused the pain and that did a
(28:35):
lot to heal that country. Now,I'm not saying it's perfect, and
they use a lot of the same. Theydid a lot of the same thing in
Rwanda, where there was a lot ofpain. They did it also in
Northern Ireland, and found thatpeople are able to tell their
story and process it made itpossible for people to reconcile
(28:57):
something
Scott Weiner (29:05):
These are some of the most positive I mean,
political events of my lifetimethat you're talking about.
Shawn Weber (29:13):
positive political events that were that were
preceded by some of the mostnegative political events and
are exactly right.
You're talking civil warsbasically Yeah. Oh
Rwanda, where people watch theirparents butchered...
Scott Weiner (29:27):
massacres. What's your NASA curse? Yeah, I'm
sorry, massacres,
Shawn Weber (29:31):
they watch their parents butchered, enable, being
able to process what happened,what was the story that led to
that pain and that horrorenabled people to be able to
find peace.
Scott Weiner (29:49):
So
Shawn Weber (29:51):
and piece by the way, is not the absence of being
done wrong, is it?
Mark Hill (29:55):
No
Shawn Weber (29:56):
peace is being able to to live with the pain that
you had in the story that youhad and being able to move
forward in a way that does lessharm.
Scott Weiner (30:05):
It's to move on to be able to move on at all.
Shawn Weber (30:08):
But what is that that old saying? I don't know
who said this. But holding agrudge is like drinking poison
and hoping the other persondies?
Scott Weiner (30:16):
Yeah.
Shawn Weber (30:20):
Yeah. But I think we as practitioners have to be
very careful. And I've beenguilty of this, because we're
going to no fault stateminimizing the activity that
caused the pain. No, that's notthe it's not relevant. We can't
talk about that. But the personthat is feeling that pain is
nevertheless feeling that pain,whether I think it's relevant or
(30:40):
not.
But yes, when the when thoseissues are coming up in the
context of say, work, we'redoing you and I, Shawn, we have
to step outside, if we're comediating a case are our core
competency in order to be ableto do this, I think you and I
both about skills that enable usto be effective in some cases,
(31:04):
but there are cases where it'sbeyond our paygrade, frankly,
and that's when we need totrain,
Scott Weiner (31:11):
I gotta say, you guys are some of the best I've
ever seen. I unbelievably, Imean, well, we had a meeting
just the other day where I feltfree. And I think I made a
mistake, I made a mistake. Butwhere I felt so comfortable with
you guys, and how you weremanaging things, that in order
to save a client some money, Isaid, You know what, you don't
(31:34):
need me for the rest of thisone. Now, as it turns out, I was
wrong. But you're definitely
Shawn Weber (31:39):
needed. Yeah, well, yeah, I
Scott Weiner (31:41):
think so I think.
Shawn Weber (31:42):
But I think I think, you know, we, Mark and I,
we, I think you and I wouldagree, Mark, that there's a
point where, you know, we're, weact like therapists sometimes,
but we're not at all where thatline is. And I'm very happy to
bring in a mental healthprofessional, to help with some
of these really complex issues,because some, frankly, sometimes
(32:03):
I may see this as the problem,but I may not know what the
remedy is. or I may not knowwhat will help a person get past
stuck. Yes, yep.
Scott Weiner (32:11):
I think you do very, very well, at actually
remedy imagining, I think he didreally well at that. You may not
believe there's a lot of time,in some of the cases we've
worked on together where, oh,man, it wouldn't have mattered a
bit what I did.
Shawn Weber (32:30):
I admit freely that I'm good at what I do.
Scott Weiner (32:33):
But I mean, and I, you know, I think I admit freely
that. And I guess I admit forall of us that our powers are
not endless.
Shawn Weber (32:45):
You know, sometimes, I mean, I just cannot
connect perhaps with a client ina way that Shawn can. And so
it's helpful to have a teamapproach. You know, I mean,
sometimes a client, candidlywill push my buttons, and I find
them difficult to interact with.
And I will literally say toSean, I need help with this man
or this lady. I'm not, I'm nothave getting a connection. And
(33:09):
that can happen to all any oneof us is that we've got someone
that just doesn't quite fit ourparameter of the perfect client.
Scott Weiner (33:23):
What happens? What happens with Shawn, when you and
I say to each other? No, are youtake it? No, you take
Shawn Weber (33:32):
them? I know, Scott, I don't know.
Scott Weiner (33:35):
What makes you think, you know, I
Shawn Weber (33:36):
did want to say to clients or clients, I took the
husband out of the room. And Itook him into the small
conference room and I said,Well, you've done it. I said, he
said, What? I said, You'vestumped the mediator. I am out
of ideas. I've got no nothingleft. And I threw the line out.
One thing we didn't try isgenerosity. What if he offered
(33:58):
something that you're willing togive up and see what happens?
And I actually did break thelogjam. But I literally felt
like I got nothing left here,you know,
well, there, there are momentslike that, where you're like,
Oh, this is never gonna settle.
And then all of a sudden, theypull a rabbit out of the hat,
they settle.
And sometimes just laying downthat reality is that I don't
(34:18):
know what to do next here and Igot some experience. So you're
going to have to come up withsomething because the whole
point of collaborative ormediation is that the clients
have a role and aresponsibility. It's not just
about us.
I've had cases where I've wantedto history authentically walk
out of the room.
Scott Weiner (34:38):
Well, you hit a table once pretty hard slam a
table pretty
Shawn Weber (34:41):
hard one time. I have had cases where Okay, I'm
done. I'm not working with thepeople anymore. I'm leaving the
room and then they begged me tocome back and then they settle
the case. So I mean, thathappens, you know, and the thing
is recognizing that we're alsohuman, you know, in If you're
out there listening to this, andyou're working with a
(35:02):
professional just realizethey've got human reactions to,
we have egos that can bebruised, and we. We try to keep
our egos out of it. But it doeshappen. Yeah, well, I thought we
burned through another episode.
Scott Weiner (35:22):
Probably God burning is right.
Shawn Weber (35:25):
Time flies when you're having fun, we talked
about stuff here. But this is, Imean this is these deep
emotional needs these deepemotional pains really are what
make Divorce Law matrimonial lawinteresting for the
professionals, and challengingfor the people that are going
through it. And it's importantto cut yourself some slack. And
(35:48):
if you need the help of a mentalhealth professional, by all
means, and doesn't mean you haveto do therapy, you just get a
good coach who can just kind ofhelp you know what to do when
you have to sit across the tablefrom this person that is causing
you so much distress.
And I have seen clients learntechniques that they felt
(36:10):
uncomfortable with to start withthat seems like a contrivance
and then they try it. And it'sactually quite effective. And
they often will change theirapproach based upon that. I
Lord, it works.
Scott Weiner (36:24):
Yeah, if it saves feelings, it saves pain it you
know, it gets you to the otherside of a difficult, you know,
issue. Yeah, it's very, it'svery gratifying. It's very
gratifying. I think that thiswork is some of the hard and
most conflict laden work thatI've, I've done in my life
(36:46):
actually doing this divorcecoaching.
Shawn Weber (36:49):
When I train people in the collaborative model,
Scott, I always said, this isthe hardest work you will ever
love. Yeah, I do. And that's howI feel about it. I do
Scott Weiner (36:59):
love it. I mean,
Shawn Weber (37:01):
there are those moments and this is what gets my
juices pumping is there's thosemoments where a change occurs.
Yeah, there's a transformationin the relationship. Yeah, maybe
we we aren't able to save themarriage, the marriages, they're
getting divorced for a reason.
But they're able to get to aplace where they can agree on
something and move on and nothave the same anger and pain.
(37:24):
I can think of two cases cases.
two cases I was involved in thisyear, where I literally said and
thanked the clients and saidthat was beautiful. You both
gave you both contributed andyou came up with a solution
twice this year, which ispretty good odds. Yeah, we've,
we've been involved in a coupleof cases like that, Mark. Yeah.
(37:46):
Yeah. There are some cases thatI say a happy ending on a
divorce case is when you can youcan leave the marriage without
feeling hatred and anger andpain and you can see a future.
Yeah. And that was doesn'talways happen every case.
Sometimes people just feel justtremendous despair. And it takes
(38:07):
a while but sometimes it does.
Scott Weiner (38:12):
How come you guys only bring me in on the ones
where all the hatred is?
Shawn Weber (38:16):
Because we need you. We need you on those tough
ones because oh my god, it'swe've gotten beyond our paygrade
we need toreally, we explained this
earlier if you're payingattention.
Scott Weiner (38:35):
I wasn't on the call yet.
Shawn Weber (38:40):
All right.
Thank you everyone. This was apleasure to do I
Scott Weiner (38:43):
just it's it's great to be with you guys. Y'all
guys. Scott guys are some of myfavorite difficult people.
Shawn Weber (38:50):
I strive to be difficult whenever I can. So
Scott, if I needed to get aholdof you to help work through
anger and pain, what would theydo?
Scott Weiner (39:00):
Well, they'd have to call me on the telephone. And
as Mark was teasing me earlier,and you regularly do my my
primitive connection to theuniverse is merely by cell
phone. I am not a web entity.
Oh, I'm so behind it. Hey, guys,I sound young on the podcast,
but I am a geezer Give me that.
Shawn Weber (39:22):
I was already on the phone. Yeah, I would agree.
Yeah, well, what number
Scott Weiner (39:28):
they would call me 619 the old San Diego registry
619-417-5743. And as Mark teasedme about earlier, yes, I do
answer my own phone. And I am Iam a clinical psychologist. I'm
also a lawyer. I'm an active inthe bar, but I I am watering
(39:49):
Syme in some ways, a ratheruseful coach to to folks who are
going through some of thesethings.
Shawn Weber (39:56):
I really agree with Mark If someone needed to talk
to you about the financial sideof things, what would they need
to do?
Well, I don't think we even havetelephones anymore. So we do
have a website it's called packdivorce.com. I'm a certified
financial planner certifieddivorce financial analyst. We
(40:17):
have a contact form on there andour phone number. If you have a
question related to divorce andfinances, we happy to hear
Scott Weiner (40:26):
from you. spell it out for the mark. pacdivorce.com
Mark Hill (40:29):
pacdivorce.com
Shawn Weber (40:33):
Could Could I fax you something? You know,
I think I do have a fax number.
No idea what it is. Yeah.
Scott Weiner (40:46):
Do you guys effects don't you? Yeah,
Shawn Weber (40:49):
um, we have something, but I don't think
anyone's used it in about fiveyears.
Join us for all the Victrola. Ifyou need to solve a dispute and
you need a dispute resolver goto weberdisputeresolution.com
and we will connect you with adispute resolution expert who
(41:09):
can help you solve your case.
Adele Weber, Weber like thegrill with one be
weberdisputeresolution.com.
Alright guys, good. Good. Goodtalk.
Scott Weiner (41:23):
Nice to see you.
Shawn Weber (41:24):
Thanks, guys. Bye.
Bye Bye. Thanks for listening toanother episode of the Three
Wise Men of divorce, money,psych, and law. If you like what
you heard, be sure to subscribe.
leave us a review and share withothers who may be in a similar
place. Until next time, staysafe, healthy and focused on a
positive, bright future. Thispodcast is for informational
(41:50):
purposes only. Every family lawcase is unique. So no legal,
financial or mental healthadvice is intended during this
podcast. If you need help withyour specific situation, feel
free to schedule a time to speakwith one of us for a personal
consultation.
Well, I think I got enough goofy stuff for the
intro.
Yeah, Please edit out some ofthat.
Oh no, I'm gonna include yourstory, complete with F word so
that we have to have an explicitlanguage advisory.
You know what if we did that ourviewers, people viewing it would
go up by probably 30%.
(00:21):
But you're probably, you know,maybe I could put like a beep in
there.
Yeah, no, please don't, pleasedon't let that one go through.
Okay, I won't.
Welcome to the three wisemen ofdivorce, money, psych, and law
podcast. Sit down with theCalifornia divorce experts,
(00:42):
financial divorce consultant,Mark Hill, psychologist Scott
Weiner, and attorney ShawnWeber, for a frank and casual
conversation about divorce,separation, co parenting, and
the difficult decisions, realpeople like you face during
these tough times. We know thatif you're looking at divorce or
separation, it can be scary andoverwhelming. With combined
(01:05):
experience of over 70 years ofdivorce and conflict management,
we are here for you and lookforward to helping by sharing
our unique ideas, thoughts andperspectives on divorce,
separation, and co parenting.
Okay, so you've you've probablyhad this case come up guys,
right? Where there's a divorcingcouple. And one party has left
(01:31):
the other party, you know, youhave a levy and a lever. And
they've left the other party fora new person. And for some
reason, the person that got leftis not happy about that. Have
you ever encountered that kindof effect pattern? It does
happen, where the person that isleft is unhappy about being left
(01:51):
for another prettier, morehandsome person?
Scott Weiner (01:55):
Does it ever not happen?
Shawn Weber (01:59):
That's a very common fact better, right?
Scott Weiner (02:01):
Yeah,
Shawn Weber (02:01):
this happens a lot too is the person that left is
very confused as to why theperson that is being left is
unhappy and says and I quote,"why can't you be happy for me?"
Scott Weiner (02:17):
It's so hilarious.
Why are you? So So somebody? I,you know, in current times when
there's this huge divide betweenthe 1% and the 99% of the
others. I'm imagining a onepercenter walking by some rather
(02:38):
hungry, disheveled lookinghomeless person saying, Why
can't you be happy for me? Whycan't you it's
Shawn Weber (02:50):
I worked hard for this
Scott Weiner (02:52):
well, or I didn't
Shawn Weber (02:54):
at your expense, but I did.
Scott Weiner (02:55):
Maybe, maybe, maybe?
Why can't you be happy for me?
Shawn Weber (03:02):
And they really mean it to I mean, they're
really confused as to why theperson that you had you stepped
out on and are now divorcing?
why that person is not justthrilled for you?
Scott Weiner (03:17):
Are they really?
Are they really that confused?
Or are they just wishing, kindof a free pass to enjoy their
good fortune after the fact? Imean, are they actually your,
their behavior does often bespeak a kind of confusion? Why
(03:42):
can't you be happy for me? Yeah.
You know, there's a differencebetween sincere and rhetorical
questions. People say thosethings, they say, Why can't you
be happy for me? And I wassaying that, that's not really
even an honest question. Mosttimes from a communications
point of view. When I say, Well,why don't that why doesn't that
(04:03):
guy do this? Or that or theother? I'm really not asking.
Why doesn t I'm really, it's arhetorical statement, I am
urging that he should do it.
When you say why can't they behappy for me, I'm saying you
should be happy for me and Iwant you to be happy for me. And
I don't want the conflict thatcomes from feeling that
(04:26):
reasonable guilt of havingdumped my other for this, you
know, new Tesla Model that justcame along you know,
Shawn Weber (04:40):
I, I think you're generally right. But I have seen
genuine puzzlement, alright outto two or three occasions in my
career, where I I just thinkthey couldn't see anything but
their own perception. Theycouldn't put themselves in the
place of anybody but them
Scott Weiner (04:59):
but you You did already pose the theory to cover
that, or Shawn did, which isthere, you know, I mean,
narcissism with a small n is ahealthy component of all of us,
you have to have some sort oftake care of yourself, be good
to yourself, or you won't be anygood for anything. But when we
(05:20):
when we cross a line, and webecome completely ignorant of
how other people might I don'tknow
Shawn Weber (05:30):
Well people get blinders on, don't they. So they
kind of get into their, I thinkof blinders, like on a horse
where you can only see what's infront of you. And not really
being aware of what's going onaround you as you're forging
ahead. And here's this person,you know, let's say it's a guy,
and he's got the new honey, andshe makes him feel really good.
(05:53):
And she's good in bed. And hefeels alive. Maybe he had a mid
life crisis.
Scott Weiner (06:00):
Did you say a midwife for midlife?
Shawn Weber (06:02):
I think it came out midwife. Yeah, you did. life
crisis. You know, and he feelsloved. And he feels sexy for the
first time in years. And so he'sso focused on how good he feels.
And how wonderful thisexperience is that there's just
an assumption that everybodymust feel wonderful about him
(06:22):
having this experience toincluding the person he's
leaving.
Scott Weiner (06:28):
Do you really find that believable that he actually
believes that? I mean, Mark saysthat once or twice in his
experience he's seen, he's seenthat occur. And I believe that
Shawn Weber (06:40):
Yeah, I've seen it happen. Yeah,
Scott Weiner (06:42):
yeah, it's why can't now let's let's let's
alter the story a little bit.
Let's go. Hmm. What's a goodperiod of time seven or eight
years down the line? wheneverybody's had a chance for
this divorce to essentially dustis settled after the affair.
Yeah, there's it's shaked outand it's almost like maybe they
(07:04):
have kids they meet and theyhave coffee from time to time to
talk about well, you know,
Shawn Weber (07:10):
you see stuff mistress or is no, no,
Scott Weiner (07:13):
yeah, our son, our son, Freddy Krueger has stopped
terrorizing the, you know, kidsin school, and, and our other
boy, Chucky is behaving muchbetter. You know, we let them
around the kitchen knives now.
And Oh, and by the way, I have anew lady love, you know? And,
and, and she returns to thatjealousy and stuff like that,
(07:36):
and all that are angry. And thenhe might reasonably say, can't
you be happy for me? I mean,we're down the line. Now
Shawn Weber (07:43):
down the line, is this right didn't happen during
the marriage. You're saying thishappened seven years after the
marriage?
Right? Right. That seems moreunderstandable and reasonable,
right? Especially because theremay have been relationships that
the other spouses add duringthat period?
Well, I will say this, if I'mgoing to have a problem on a
case, especially when there'skids involved post judgment.
(08:07):
It's going to be when the newsignificant other shows up. You
know, and you're amazed. I mean,even the person that asked for
the divorce, like I had a caselike this, she asked for the
divorce.
Scott Weiner (08:18):
I think I know it,
Shawn Weber (08:19):
you know, the one we're talking about she after
the divorce, and he at some timeafter the divorce was final, has
a new person, and then she hasan absolute cow over it, that
he's with the new person becomesincredibly jealous. And that
(08:42):
always kind of puzzled me. Youknow, you you wanted this. He's
finally moving on. And nowyou're angry. You know, so that
happens to and it seems I feellike we're picking on women. I
mean, this happens in bothdirections, right? It's not
gender specific. I've seen womenhave affairs or have new
significant others and the menget jealous.
Scott Weiner (09:02):
Absolutely.
Shawn Weber (09:02):
And I've seen the argument made on behalf of the
person that saying, Why can'tyou be happy for me? Look,
you've been miserable for years,I've heard from you for years,
how miserable you've been. I'mgiving you the opportunity to
find what I have found,oh, I had that one a couple of
weeks ago, the wife is the onethat had the new relationship.
And she said, I thought youwould be glad that I left. You
(09:24):
know you weren't happy duringthe marriage. You made that very
clear to me throughout themarriage that you're unhappy.
And now I'm with a new personand you're angry at me about
well, what causes that? Whywould a person be angry when
they were miserable? The wholemarriage?
Scott Weiner (09:43):
Well, we're assuming that the only dimension
of of wanting a loyalty in thisand the other is this
affiliative connection. Thereare other dimensions there's,
you know, there's other reasonsthat we can be Jealous, it. You
know, a lot of times thedynamics of these relationships
(10:07):
are. It's this It sounds so canto say it, but it's almost
reflective of family of origin.
It's almost like I see a lot ofcouples issues as being almost
brother and sister rages that goon, you know who's more worthy,
who's more deserving of therespect of others? Who's this?
(10:31):
Who's that as the other. Andit's sort of like, it's like a
pecking order thing. You want toget biblical about it. Go ahead,
Jacob and Esau get going, youknow, it's sort of like, this is
old stuff. This is so core forus, these old jealousies, that
they're reflected in all theirreligious writings, that's all
(10:52):
their
Shawn Weber (10:55):
mother liked you more than me.
Scott Weiner (10:58):
Well, then there's that one, too, you know,
Shawn Weber (11:02):
but there's that often with the in-laws too.
Sometimes you get an in law whoreally likes the Yeah, the
daughter in Oh, yeah, thatcreates problems for the spouse.
Scott Weiner (11:16):
Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And you don't even need a
divorce for that one.
Shawn Weber (11:21):
Probably cause one.
Well,
Scott Weiner (11:24):
I mean, I, I stayed with you because I like
your mother, you know.
Shawn Weber (11:31):
I think there's a country song. I won't miss her.
But I'll miss her dad.
Well, like that Jim Reeves song,she took the house and left it
was a mobile home.
Scott Weiner (11:50):
Okay, okay.
Shawn Weber (11:52):
Well, there's a need isn't there, there's an
emotional need that is not beingmet. When a person strays. I'm
not saying I'm not trying todefend the adulterer. Right. But
these things don't happen in avacuum. Would you agree with
that or am I,
Scott Weiner (12:14):
I would agree with that, but not with the idea that
it's, I mean, there, there areemotional needs that we have of
each other, that are fair toask. And then there's dependency
needs that are too powerful tobe met by, you know, just some
other person and then the stringcan be as much for string isn't
(12:40):
always wholesome. Okay. stringis not always well, you know,
there was just this reasonableneed that I wasn't. Yeah, you
know, it can be for crazy unmetdependency needs to
Shawn Weber (12:54):
I think most people who say straying is definitely
not wholesome.
Scott Weiner (12:58):
Well, yeah. But you're talking about when
there's a need that's not beingmet. Yeah.
Mark Hill (13:03):
But there's this cereal strayers...
Scott Weiner (13:04):
, not all, not all men are created equal, shall we
say that?
Shawn Weber (13:08):
I think there are people who, who, essentially
that is their go to defaultposition if I'm not getting what
I want, I will stray and thereare people who do that and then
there are others I think whogenuinely fall into a
relationship at a time when theydon't you know, they weren't
(13:30):
unnecessarily seeking it. Ithink there's there's different
shades of grey on this spectrumhere.
There's a there's a lot of gray,you know, I
Scott Weiner (13:39):
maybe about 50
Shawn Weber (13:41):
What's that? 50 Shades of Grey shades.
You would know better than Icounselor.
psychologists and all your sextalk.
Scott Weiner (13:56):
void. I don't know whether our voyeurism or our
hypocrisy is more remarkable.
It's hard for me to tell. I
Shawn Weber (14:04):
Well, that's what we have you here for to make
those kinds of decisions on.
Yeah, I
Scott Weiner (14:08):
see. I see why I've said before that I think
that sometimes we're paidprofessional hypocrites, but
okay. Alright. So yes, there'sthere's some kind of, I mean,
some kind of tropism some kindof turning toward a, an
experience that a person wants.
Yes, that that is a valuelessassertion. However, you know,
Shawn Weber (14:35):
I'm not here trying to argue that you're justified
when you stray. I'm just saying,there's a reason why people
stray that could be explored andit could help to understand it.
I had a case I think I'vementioned this case before in
this podcast, where the womanalways looked like she'd
(14:57):
swallowed a lemon. She was veryangry. Because he had an affair,
and she always referred to themistress throughout the
proceeding, the mistress thatthe mistress this, and he would
come back and he would say,well, divorce doesn't happen in
a vacuum. There's a reason why Ileft because you were a cold,
(15:17):
horrible person to be around younever met my needs, he wouldn't
sleep with me. You were alwayscruel to me. And so I left and
her response was, Well, you knowwhat I would rather you just
left and then gotten with yourmistress, why did you have to
get with your mistress while youwere married? To me? That would
have been much more, you know,be a man is what she said, you
(15:39):
know, you should have been abeen You shouldn't have, right?
That's exactly. And so that was,you know, and I know I'm getting
into kind of a moralisticargument here. But But I mean,
my point in bringing it all upis there were two very clear
points of view and a lot of hurtgoing on.
And let me take this back up to,you know, 30,000 feet and say,
how did that impact the processof the divorce? And how much
(16:04):
more difficult was it? Andbecause I do recall you talking
about this space, and there wassome resolution that occurred,
but getting that resolution atearliest stage in the case I
would have suspected would havemade it smoother.
Yes, I mean, she was very angry.
And, Scott, I think you've toldme this, that anger is a
(16:25):
secondary emotion. Right, that?
Well, that's
Scott Weiner (16:28):
I say that that that's one of the conventional
theories. Yes.
Shawn Weber (16:32):
Yeah.
Scott Weiner (16:34):
But that, at least in many cases, I've seen it be
true.
Shawn Weber (16:39):
She was very wounded. Yes, yes, he was very
wounded. She was very hurt, shewas angry at him. She didn't
want to cooperate with him in COparenting. And so I think the
kids were going to sufferbecause of that. She wanted him
to pay. She wanted him to, tohave to suffer for what he did.
(17:00):
And the problem and the problemis we're you know, we're in
California, which is a no faultstate. And, you know, I've told
people, you know, when I used todo litigation, I used to say,
you know, he could go out andsleep with every chargers
cheerleader that's begging thecharges, we're still in San
Diego, with every chargerscheerleader different went every
night, and the court wouldn'tcare. You know, and because
(17:23):
people are looking for some kindof retribution, some kind of
justice for what he did to me,or what she did to me. And
that's not available legally. Sothen I had to explore with that
family as the mediator. Couldshe have, in essence, an
opportunity to clarify what hedid? And what that meant to her?
(17:50):
And what pain that caused her?
Could that be expressed in a waythat would then allow them to be
able to go on to settlement?
And, and that's what we did? Youknow, we gave her that forum,
and then they got to settlement?
Well, the great thing about thatis they actually came into
mediation. Because many peoplewho are that angry just want the
(18:13):
retribution of the gladiatorattorney going out and fighting
the good fight on their behalf.
And credit to both of them thatthey made that they actually
came into mediation. Yeah, Imean, they had a lot of, they
had a lot of, there was a lot ofemotionality going on there.
And, and I got to give hercredit, she was very angry, it
was very challenging at thebeginning of the case, but then
(18:34):
she got to a place where she wasquite reasonable. And if
anything, he became moreproblematic
Scott Weiner (18:41):
to me, but I gotta give credit to the mediator, the
fact that you that you installedthat process for them, and saw
that as a potential windowthrough which they could perhaps
pass and get to another level ofsettlement. Uh, I mean, I'm not
wearing a hat. But if I had whenI take it off to you,
Shawn Weber (19:05):
well,
Mark Hill (19:06):
but let's compare what would have happened in a
litigated case. In that case,you would have had the ability
of the talented attorney. Ithink I've told this story
before, but a colleague of minefrom San Francisco started with
the big firm many, many, manyyears ago, she told me that they
(19:26):
had a partner who specialized injilted women as clients. And his
comment to the woman was, and hewould repeat it in pretty much
every case, then we will rip outhis lying heart. That was
exactly the phrase he would usein order to gather clients
essentially, and go through alitigious process to try to that
(19:51):
retribution you were talkingabout.
Shawn Weber (19:52):
I had a former business partner she was an old
school litigator and she wouldtell people we're going to get
his left testicle on a silverplate
Scott Weiner (20:02):
I gotta ask a question. In a in a common law
state, can you get retributionfor?
Shawn Weber (20:11):
Well, there are some states that are still were
fault is still an element. Andthey can affect outcomes. Not in
California, but not inCalifornia. But there are some
states where where fault is anelement thing. Georgia was one
of them. Yeah. And there's beena big debate as to whether
(20:33):
polling falls out of divorceproceedings was actually
positive. Because what happensnow is you go to court Yeah, the
judge doesn't have to thread theneedle and figure out who caused
this marriage. Yeah. But whatyou have then is you have no
processing happening so thenanybody brings up affairs then
the litigating attorney standsup objection relevance
(20:56):
irrelevant Yeah. Because itwhether he had an affair is not
relevant or she had an affair.
You can bring affairs intoCalifornia proceedings through
the breach of fiduciary dutyargument though
and through the way money wasspent
correct so he he spent money onher $30,000 tennis bracelet you
(21:17):
know for the mistress now we'vegot an issue that is relevant
and you can bring you can bringit into the into of the story,
butthat just because he chose to go
out with her the night of theiranniversary, that's not going to
have any difference to the case.
The fact that he had a lyingcheating heart that we're going
to pull out well, no matter
Scott Weiner (21:38):
and the Adjust the adjustment in property for that
$30,000 tennis bracelet. It's 15grand.
Shawn Weber (21:45):
Yeah, exactly.
Well, unless unless he defraudedher you say case, it could be
30. Could be 30. Yeah, it can.
It depends on you know, what hisbehavior was, like, if he came
clean and Okay, then we'll justwe'll make those adjustments.
Scott Weiner (22:00):
I see. So, there can be a discouragement term
there if there's fraud,fiduciary fraud Yeah, or
Shawn Weber (22:07):
you know, I also had the case where this was
early in my career and thehusband it's these poor man,
it's always the man I'm pickingon but it usually is.
Scott Weiner (22:17):
Let's face it, come on.
Shawn Weber (22:18):
It's sometimes it's the women but he had cleaned out
their 401k and had spent it onlap dances and pornography. It's
a lot of porn are really tiny.
401k it was a whole lot ofmoney. He was pulling out and it
was it was six figures. Hmm.
(22:40):
Wow. And judge said that was nota breach of fiduciary duty. He
had a right to do that. That wasjust you know, that benefited
the community.
Scott Weiner (22:52):
Which community was he speaking of?
Shawn Weber (22:54):
I don't know.
Scott Weiner (22:55):
I think I have a hunch
Shawn Weber (22:57):
I was dumbfounded when that was going on and I use
that as my example of you neverknow what a judge is gonna do.
I had a case years ago wherehusband had chosen to invest in
a business for the mistress orthe new girlfriend and didn't
come clean to wife about it.
Yeah, that that was consideredan abusive fiduciary duty
(23:24):
you know, you see a lot of theseguys yeah,
because actually the businessdid really well. But she wasn't
going to benefit from it youknow, because he had us separate
property funds for it. It wasvery complicated but they
interesting was an interestingcase because as I found out a
long time after I was involvedwith it, the judge actually did
(23:48):
side with the wife's positionyou know that she had been
excluded from an investmentopportunity and just because it
was with the the girlfriend sheshould have had the opportunity
to participate in it so he endedup writing or a jack I think for
like 50,000 or something soyeah, we see that or you know,
we get a lot of these peoplethey're crying fat they're
(24:10):
crying poor I'm poor. I don'thave any money while they're
driving around on theirgirlfriend's mother Roddy. Yes,
right. It's not theirgirlfriend's mother it is their
mother it but they put it intheir girlfriend's name so they
can hide it. And and, but I willsay this to people that try that
kind of garbage. You always getcaught. It's not something
(24:30):
that's really smart to try toplay those games because the
forensic accountants that haveseen every trick in the book can
spot these things prettyquickly. There's not any trick
that you can dream up that theyhaven't already seen. Yeah.
Scott Weiner (24:49):
So when I'm going to ask my wife and I'm driving
my my, you know, my mistress'sMaserati around. And I'm going
to ask her, why aren't you happyfor me.
Shawn Weber (25:02):
Why aren't you happy?
Mark Hill (25:03):
Don't you get to ride in the Maserati every night?
Shawn Weber (25:05):
Why Are youbeing so selfish? Why? Why can't you just
let me be happy?
Scott Weiner (25:11):
Why, why why?
Yeah, so
Shawn Weber (25:13):
Okay, well, what's the moral of the story? We've
been talking around this issueand we've, what can we learn
from this,I think there's one thing we've
listening is that unresolvedissues around hurt. And anger
will make the divorce case moreexpensive, more painful and take
longer. I think that so ifthere's a way to get past that,
(25:39):
not to necessarily forgive, butto be heard, and to be
acknowledged, that your positionhas been heard, that often goes
a long way, you don'tnecessarily get resolution,
we're not talking about maritaltherapy to get them back
together.
(26:00):
But being able to address Ithink, where we you know, in our
approach, when we do thingsoutside of court, like giving
people a forum where even thoughlegally, it may not be relevant,
letting people address it, tosome extent, can allow for a
pathway to settlement can givepeople an environment where the
(26:21):
case can settle. Because ifpeople are just kind of just
filled with anger, and rage, andpain, and hurt, and all of that,
it makes it very hard for folksto think clearly enough to be
able to reach a settlement.
Because it's always clouded by Ican't believe I have to share
with this person that did me sowrong.
(26:43):
And I think that's the conceptof settlement readiness. There
comes a point when we have allthe financial information we
need. So financially, we may besettlement ready. But
nonetheless, unless they'reemotionally ready to end their
battle. And that's often what itcomes down to, they're not going
to complete the case in asatisfactory way. So I think
(27:08):
getting people to that point.
And I think the takeaway is, youknow, if you if there is anger,
in your case that's spillingover into your negotiations, you
should encourage, we wouldencourage you to be engaging a
mental health professional or tohelp you through that part of
it, because it's the most costeffective way of getting your
case done.
(27:29):
Yeah, and I want to clarify, notengaged in mental health
professional because we thinkyou're crazy. You know, what
we're saying is engaged inmental health professional so
you can get a grasp on thisemotionality that is infecting
the ability for you to makeclear, logical choices,
and to be able to communicatewith each other. Yeah, it's
really about they always thinkabout the coaches being
(27:51):
communication specialists, youknow, no marriage breaks down
unless there's been some degreeof communication, failure.
You know, there's the Truth andReconciliation committee in
South Africa. Yeah, next to thegreat Nelson Mandela. And there
was a lot of hurt that went onin South Africa through
(28:12):
apartheid. And the Truth andReconciliation committee, the
whole point of it was to be ableto speak truth and to be able to
tell your story.
And without the anticipation forretribution,
correct. Just add to it. Tellyour story. How were you hurt
the person that was the victim?
What did you do the person thatcaused the pain and that did a
(28:35):
lot to heal that country. Now,I'm not saying it's perfect, and
they use a lot of the same. Theydid a lot of the same thing in
Rwanda, where there was a lot ofpain. They did it also in
Northern Ireland, and found thatpeople are able to tell their
story and process it made itpossible for people to reconcile
(28:57):
something
Scott Weiner (29:05):
These are some of the most positive I mean,
political events of my lifetimethat you're talking about.
Shawn Weber (29:13):
positive political events that were that were
preceded by some of the mostnegative political events and
are exactly right.
You're talking civil warsbasically Yeah. Oh
Rwanda, where people watch theirparents butchered...
Scott Weiner (29:27):
massacres. What's your NASA curse? Yeah, I'm
sorry, massacres,
Shawn Weber (29:31):
they watch their parents butchered, enable, being
able to process what happened,what was the story that led to
that pain and that horrorenabled people to be able to
find peace.
Scott Weiner (29:49):
So
Shawn Weber (29:51):
and piece by the way, is not the absence of being
done wrong, is it?
Mark Hill (29:55):
No
Shawn Weber (29:56):
peace is being able to to live with the pain that
you had in the story that youhad and being able to move
forward in a way that does lessharm.
Scott Weiner (30:05):
It's to move on to be able to move on at all.
Shawn Weber (30:08):
But what is that that old saying? I don't know
who said this. But holding agrudge is like drinking poison
and hoping the other persondies?
Scott Weiner (30:16):
Yeah.
Shawn Weber (30:20):
Yeah. But I think we as practitioners have to be
very careful. And I've beenguilty of this, because we're
going to no fault stateminimizing the activity that
caused the pain. No, that's notthe it's not relevant. We can't
talk about that. But the personthat is feeling that pain is
nevertheless feeling that pain,whether I think it's relevant or
(30:40):
not.
But yes, when the when thoseissues are coming up in the
context of say, work, we'redoing you and I, Shawn, we have
to step outside, if we're comediating a case are our core
competency in order to be ableto do this, I think you and I
both about skills that enable usto be effective in some cases,
(31:04):
but there are cases where it'sbeyond our paygrade, frankly,
and that's when we need totrain,
Scott Weiner (31:11):
I gotta say, you guys are some of the best I've
ever seen. I unbelievably, Imean, well, we had a meeting
just the other day where I feltfree. And I think I made a
mistake, I made a mistake. Butwhere I felt so comfortable with
you guys, and how you weremanaging things, that in order
to save a client some money, Isaid, You know what, you don't
(31:34):
need me for the rest of thisone. Now, as it turns out, I was
wrong. But you're definitely
Shawn Weber (31:39):
needed. Yeah, well, yeah, I
Scott Weiner (31:41):
think so I think.
Shawn Weber (31:42):
But I think I think, you know, we, Mark and I,
we, I think you and I wouldagree, Mark, that there's a
point where, you know, we're, weact like therapists sometimes,
but we're not at all where thatline is. And I'm very happy to
bring in a mental healthprofessional, to help with some
of these really complex issues,because some, frankly, sometimes
(32:03):
I may see this as the problem,but I may not know what the
remedy is. or I may not knowwhat will help a person get past
stuck. Yes, yep.
Scott Weiner (32:11):
I think you do very, very well, at actually
remedy imagining, I think he didreally well at that. You may not
believe there's a lot of time,in some of the cases we've
worked on together where, oh,man, it wouldn't have mattered a
bit what I did.
Shawn Weber (32:30):
I admit freely that I'm good at what I do.
Scott Weiner (32:33):
But I mean, and I, you know, I think I admit freely
that. And I guess I admit forall of us that our powers are
not endless.
Shawn Weber (32:45):
You know, sometimes, I mean, I just cannot
connect perhaps with a client ina way that Shawn can. And so
it's helpful to have a teamapproach. You know, I mean,
sometimes a client, candidlywill push my buttons, and I find
them difficult to interact with.
And I will literally say toSean, I need help with this man
or this lady. I'm not, I'm nothave getting a connection. And
(33:09):
that can happen to all any oneof us is that we've got someone
that just doesn't quite fit ourparameter of the perfect client.
Scott Weiner (33:23):
What happens? What happens with Shawn, when you and
I say to each other? No, are youtake it? No, you take
Shawn Weber (33:32):
them? I know, Scott, I don't know.
Scott Weiner (33:35):
What makes you think, you know, I
Shawn Weber (33:36):
did want to say to clients or clients, I took the
husband out of the room. And Itook him into the small
conference room and I said,Well, you've done it. I said, he
said, What? I said, You'vestumped the mediator. I am out
of ideas. I've got no nothingleft. And I threw the line out.
One thing we didn't try isgenerosity. What if he offered
(33:58):
something that you're willing togive up and see what happens?
And I actually did break thelogjam. But I literally felt
like I got nothing left here,you know,
well, there, there are momentslike that, where you're like,
Oh, this is never gonna settle.
And then all of a sudden, theypull a rabbit out of the hat,
they settle.
And sometimes just laying downthat reality is that I don't
(34:18):
know what to do next here and Igot some experience. So you're
going to have to come up withsomething because the whole
point of collaborative ormediation is that the clients
have a role and aresponsibility. It's not just
about us.
I've had cases where I've wantedto history authentically walk
out of the room.
Scott Weiner (34:38):
Well, you hit a table once pretty hard slam a
table pretty
Shawn Weber (34:41):
hard one time. I have had cases where Okay, I'm
done. I'm not working with thepeople anymore. I'm leaving the
room and then they begged me tocome back and then they settle
the case. So I mean, thathappens, you know, and the thing
is recognizing that we're alsohuman, you know, in If you're
out there listening to this, andyou're working with a
(35:02):
professional just realizethey've got human reactions to,
we have egos that can bebruised, and we. We try to keep
our egos out of it. But it doeshappen. Yeah, well, I thought we
burned through another episode.
Scott Weiner (35:22):
Probably God burning is right.
Shawn Weber (35:25):
Time flies when you're having fun, we talked
about stuff here. But this is, Imean this is these deep
emotional needs these deepemotional pains really are what
make Divorce Law matrimonial lawinteresting for the
professionals, and challengingfor the people that are going
through it. And it's importantto cut yourself some slack. And
(35:48):
if you need the help of a mentalhealth professional, by all
means, and doesn't mean you haveto do therapy, you just get a
good coach who can just kind ofhelp you know what to do when
you have to sit across the tablefrom this person that is causing
you so much distress.
And I have seen clients learntechniques that they felt
(36:10):
uncomfortable with to start withthat seems like a contrivance
and then they try it. And it'sactually quite effective. And
they often will change theirapproach based upon that. I
Lord, it works.
Scott Weiner (36:24):
Yeah, if it saves feelings, it saves pain it you
know, it gets you to the otherside of a difficult, you know,
issue. Yeah, it's very, it'svery gratifying. It's very
gratifying. I think that thiswork is some of the hard and
most conflict laden work thatI've, I've done in my life
(36:46):
actually doing this divorcecoaching.
Shawn Weber (36:49):
When I train people in the collaborative model,
Scott, I always said, this isthe hardest work you will ever
love. Yeah, I do. And that's howI feel about it. I do
Scott Weiner (36:59):
love it. I mean,
Shawn Weber (37:01):
there are those moments and this is what gets my
juices pumping is there's thosemoments where a change occurs.
Yeah, there's a transformationin the relationship. Yeah, maybe
we we aren't able to save themarriage, the marriages, they're
getting divorced for a reason.
But they're able to get to aplace where they can agree on
something and move on and nothave the same anger and pain.
(37:24):
I can think of two cases cases.
two cases I was involved in thisyear, where I literally said and
thanked the clients and saidthat was beautiful. You both
gave you both contributed andyou came up with a solution
twice this year, which ispretty good odds. Yeah, we've,
we've been involved in a coupleof cases like that, Mark. Yeah.
(37:46):
Yeah. There are some cases thatI say a happy ending on a
divorce case is when you can youcan leave the marriage without
feeling hatred and anger andpain and you can see a future.
Yeah. And that was doesn'talways happen every case.
Sometimes people just feel justtremendous despair. And it takes
(38:07):
a while but sometimes it does.
Scott Weiner (38:12):
How come you guys only bring me in on the ones
where all the hatred is?
Shawn Weber (38:16):
Because we need you. We need you on those tough
ones because oh my god, it'swe've gotten beyond our paygrade
we need toreally, we explained this
earlier if you're payingattention.
Scott Weiner (38:35):
I wasn't on the call yet.
Shawn Weber (38:40):
All right.
Thank you everyone. This was apleasure to do I
Scott Weiner (38:43):
just it's it's great to be with you guys. Y'all
guys. Scott guys are some of myfavorite difficult people.
Shawn Weber (38:50):
I strive to be difficult whenever I can. So
Scott, if I needed to get aholdof you to help work through
anger and pain, what would theydo?
Scott Weiner (39:00):
Well, they'd have to call me on the telephone. And
as Mark was teasing me earlier,and you regularly do my my
primitive connection to theuniverse is merely by cell
phone. I am not a web entity.
Oh, I'm so behind it. Hey, guys,I sound young on the podcast,
but I am a geezer Give me that.
Shawn Weber (39:22):
I was already on the phone. Yeah, I would agree.
Yeah, well, what number
Scott Weiner (39:28):
they would call me 619 the old San Diego registry
619-417-5743. And as Mark teasedme about earlier, yes, I do
answer my own phone. And I am Iam a clinical psychologist. I'm
also a lawyer. I'm an active inthe bar, but I I am watering
(39:49):
Syme in some ways, a ratheruseful coach to to folks who are
going through some of thesethings.
Shawn Weber (39:56):
I really agree with Mark If someone needed to talk
to you about the financial sideof things, what would they need
to do?
Well, I don't think we even havetelephones anymore. So we do
have a website it's called packdivorce.com. I'm a certified
financial planner certifieddivorce financial analyst. We
(40:17):
have a contact form on there andour phone number. If you have a
question related to divorce andfinances, we happy to hear
Scott Weiner (40:26):
from you. spell it out for the mark. pacdivorce.com
Mark Hill (40:29):
pacdivorce.com
Shawn Weber (40:33):
Could Could I fax you something? You know,
I think I do have a fax number.
No idea what it is. Yeah.
Scott Weiner (40:46):
Do you guys effects don't you? Yeah,
Shawn Weber (40:49):
um, we have something, but I don't think
anyone's used it in about fiveyears.
Join us for all the Victrola. Ifyou need to solve a dispute and
you need a dispute resolver goto weberdisputeresolution.com
and we will connect you with adispute resolution expert who
(41:09):
can help you solve your case.
Adele Weber, Weber like thegrill with one be
weberdisputeresolution.com.
Alright guys, good. Good. Goodtalk.
Scott Weiner (41:23):
Nice to see you.
Shawn Weber (41:24):
Thanks, guys. Bye.
Bye Bye. Thanks for listening toanother episode of the Three
Wise Men of divorce, money,psych, and law. If you like what
you heard, be sure to subscribe.
leave us a review and share withothers who may be in a similar
place. Until next time, staysafe, healthy and focused on a
positive, bright future. Thispodcast is for informational
(41:50):
purposes only. Every family lawcase is unique. So no legal,
financial or mental healthadvice is intended during this
podcast. If you need help withyour specific situation, feel
free to schedule a time to speakwith one of us for a personal
consultation.
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