Do you know who your ideal customer is? If you can't answer that question in 15 seconds or less... you probably need to work on it...
In this episode, we'll talk to Aaron Orendorff, the CMO @Recart (ex-Shopify, ex-Common Thread Collective), a marketing expert who specializes in helping DTC businesses grow. Aaron shares his insights on the importance of knowing who your ideal customer is and how to find, understand, and reach them.
When you know your ideal customer, you can create products and marketing campaigns that are specifically designed to appeal to them. This will help you reach more of your target audience and convert more leads into customers.
Here are some of the key takeaways from our conversation with Aaron:
- Your ideal customer is the foundation of your business. Everything you do, from product development to marketing, should be focused on your ideal customer.
- It's important to understand your ideal customer's needs and wants. What are they looking for in a product or service? What are their pain points?
- You can find your ideal customer by talking to them. Conduct surveys, interviews, and focus groups to get a better understanding of your target audience.
- Once you know your ideal customer, you can create products and marketing campaigns that resonate with them. This will help you reach more of your target audience and convert more leads into customers.
If you're a DTC business owner, this is a MUST listen to... This is like a 4 year college degree fit into 1 hour...
Please connect with Trevor on social media. You can find him anywhere @thetrevorcrump
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Trevor (00:00):
Yo, what's going on everybody? Welcome to the
unstoppable Marketer Podcastwith me as always is my lovely
co host who cut his hair. Markgoldheart What's up, Mark?
Mark (00:11):
Oh, I'm doing great. I like how it's changed from the
the one with beautiful hair tothe one who cut his hair.
Trevor (00:17):
Yeah, you're just getting closer and closer to me.
Mark (00:20):
I'm just you know, I did see some thinning out maybe so.
My, my hair days are numbered.
Trevor (00:29):
Dude, if you're in your 30s and you're not bald, and I
just think like, you're just,you're good. You're probably
gonna like, You're gonna befine. Me It happened when I was
like, probably 2425. Likehappened to coincide with like
when I had my first kid to theanimal life defining moment. I
don't know if it really was alife defining moment. It really
(00:50):
was. I thought to myself, Okay,I can never let myself go. I've
lost my hair. So now I can't letmyself go. Physically, I gotta
stay in better shape. I can'thave that against me. So that's,
uh, that's that's what I but Iluckily I nap a nap up a life
too. So she just has to love menow at this point, right? Yeah.
Well, dude, I'm excited fortoday. We got an awesome guest.
(01:13):
Um, and I'm I guess let's justintroduce him.
Unknown (01:16):
Yeah, let's do it.
Trevor (01:17):
Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay, drumroll. Drumroll,
please. Our guest today is Aaronorendorff Aaron Orndorff, who is
currently the head of marketingfor an SMS technical are one of
them as they say I'm a technicalfor an SMS provider called
Rijkaard. X Shopify x commonthread collective. This man's
(01:43):
rap sheet is legit. You go lookat his LinkedIn profile his
resume, it's legit Aaronwelcome. What's up, buddy? I'm
gonna
Aaron (01:51):
pull the ultimate. No, we curse on the show. Right? That's
fine. Sure. Okay,
Trevor (01:55):
we'll just make it explicit. You know, but you can
hear us Can I tell you something
Aaron (01:58):
blue asshole move. And I'm going to reveal like, do I
have such a glorious head ofhair underneath this after
you're such a jerk? I know. Lookat Yes, I know. I wear hats
constantly because I'm lazy. Andthen I've got my like, lose 10
(02:19):
years and get it all styled upmoolah. Get
Trevor (02:22):
that do man you can be in a 70s movie with that kind of
hair. Like typically
Aaron (02:27):
I like to ingratiate myself to the host, but I'm just
gonna side with Mark this time.
And I really pour it on thick.
Trevor (02:32):
We're co hosts. So you got it. You had to pick one
side. Right?
Mark (02:36):
And Trevor needs a little humble pie. Everyone's Yeah, you
know? Yeah. Oh, don't we all
Trevor (02:42):
just is what it is. You know, I guess it's funny you say
you asked to swear on thispodcast. So you know, you know,
teach their own. But I actuallynoticed this. So the other day,
my son comes into my room. Well,we put them all to bed, right?
And my wife and I just got intobed. And we when our kids get a
(03:05):
certain age, we give them all anAlexa for their room to listen
to audiobooks, like they so theyfall, they'll fall asleep to an
audiobook, you know, and theyjust love it. It's like their
jam
Mark (03:14):
story is that you guys are just CIA informants and just
want to make sure they havedirect access to your kids.
Right?
Trevor (03:20):
Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
And so all of a sudden my sonjust like comes like barging
into our room like scares us todeath. And he's just got this.
He's like grinning from ear toear. And he's like, yeah, he's
holding up like his his wristlike this because of debt. Debt.
Guess what? We're, what is this?
What am I? What am I doing? AndI'm like, Dude, I don't know
what you're doing. My son'seight, by the way. That look,
look at this. And I'm like,dude, dude, I don't His name is
(03:41):
Jude. I'm like, Dude, I have noidea what you're doing, bro. And
he goes, Mark's mom. And I goMark's mom. And he goes, Yeah,
Mark's mom, she broke her wrist.
And marks marks. Sunset yuckywhen he saw the wrist. And I'm
like, What? What is he talkingabout? And I'm like, why are you
saying this? He's like, theunstoppable Marketer Podcast.
And I'm like, What do you mean?
(04:05):
And apparently, he's he got on.
He's been listening to everyepisode of ours on his own on
his own falls asleep to it. AndMark I can't remember if you if
you can remember this mark, butyou were taught you have like
your mom happened to break herwrist and she kind of like wrist
Mark (04:21):
and we showed our kids that picture. And he didn't know
what to say. He's like, is thatyucky dad? Yeah, because, like
bent out of place.
Trevor (04:31):
He just busted up when he heard that part. Just thought
it was the funniest thing thatyour son would say that and so
now Yeah, so yes. And every nowand every time now, when
somebody or me swears on thepodcast. He'll come in and be
like, Dad, you swore did
Aaron (04:45):
oh, so we might get chastised. So you're done.
Trevor (04:48):
So I had to do a shout out I gotta do a shout out to
him. Dude, you're the man.
You're the best. He's gonna hearthat and he's gonna go like
Berserk guaranteed. So now
Aaron (04:57):
I'm what a little asshole because I can't out that I've
got three daughters 1012 and 16.
And they could give zero appsabout what I do or who I hang
out with. Every once in a whileI'll wander into some
connection. It's typically withYouTube, like, back when I was
at Shopify Plus the purplefolks, I got to interview them.
(05:21):
We did a couple of articlestogether. And that was one of
those moments of like, oh, theegg matches people with the
Sasquatch and the denona. Yeah,all right. I got a moment. I got
like, I have a few of thosebreakthrough from time to time,
but they're so rare. So yeah.
Judy, and little jerk.
Trevor (05:40):
He's the Caesar stud.
Well, that errand Dude, I'm sostoked to have you on this has
been a long time coming. Icannot for the life. Oh, I just
remember how we got connected.
If I recall, I always do this. Ialways try to find like Barker,
I tried to find a connection tothe guest. So it's not like
super random that I was like,Hey, Aaron, you want to jump on?
Right? I got connected throughyou. Because I created a piece
(06:05):
of content. And I just just leteverybody know, I am a Rijkaard
user. Right, straight up I am.
And I just happen to be creatinga piece of content like hey,
here are some like tools that ifyou're in a certain, you know,
style business, you can't livewithout you. And I think I just
highlighted Rijkaard. Yeah, andyou had reached out like this is
(06:25):
awesome. Thank you so much. Andthat was I got the introduction.
I wasn't meaning to do that atall just simply just, Hey, I
like this tool and this is why
Aaron (06:35):
do you remember so this item maybe this goes into our
first marketing lessonunstoppable marketer right
because one of my keys to beingan unstoppable marketer, I don't
know if you do this on the show.
What are the fundamentalingredients is borderline ne
full on shamelessness whensomething out there is good and
you can use it? Because I don'tknow if you remember that
(06:56):
experience. But I think we gotflagged over the weekend.
Somebody brought it up in ourslack because I'm barely on Tik
Tok. So someone else in ourmarketing team, wonderful woman
named Isla I spotted it grabbedit. And I was like, download
personal account, Twitter,LinkedIn branded account,
Twitter, LinkedIn, turn it intoa thread, go tag all of the
other brands that you'reassociated with, push it out
(07:16):
into the email, like we justtook this one piece of content
was my ham on it. And I was sonervous because like, I'm just
doing it. And let's see how thedude response Yeah, I had no
idea it was gonna turn intolike, I just it's so funny to
level up. I have nerves in thosesorts of moments. Sure. I'm just
gonna go do it. I'm just on it.
(07:37):
Let's let's push it out. This isquality. Especially because it's
unprompted, UGC, in that sense,and your real customer at both
at an agency level as well asyour brand's level. Yeah, I are
very nervous. And you were sogracious about it. Now that I
know you of course, you're nowthat I know you. It makes all
the sense in the world. But itmeant a lot to get that and it
meant even more that you didn'ttake me to task when I check
(07:59):
your stuff and put it everywhereand possibly
Trevor (08:04):
actually, you guys owe me like $500 for that. So no,
what's what's really cool aboutthat, like just this is just
like a lesson in and of whateveryou want to whatever lesson you
can, if you are listening tothis, you can take whatever
lessons you want out of this.
What's cool about that is likeso I created a piece of content,
zero strings attached but that'sjust like who I am like I don't
do paid content. So there's it'salways zero strings attached for
(08:25):
me, right? Like my content islike I just want to get the most
value to a customer or consumeror listener of whatever right.
But since that has happened likewe have done lots of business
together Yeah, I've been on twoor three webinars with you. You
I flew out to Portland and youand me went and did breakfast so
(08:50):
I've since like met you inperson there's a lot can happen
through content creation and andjust through like, like you
said, just like risking it likelisten, I'm gonna post this
about it like I would not knowwho you guys were or anything
like that. Had you guys notposted anything, right? Like you
wouldn't be would probably notbe chatting
Aaron (09:09):
and people get out there and go hard if you smell like
you get that instinct of thishas legs. This is something this
is a person I want to get up intheir world. Ask for forgiveness
later. Just go for every once ina while you'll run into somebody
who does the kind of be a jerkabout it. But for the most part,
(09:31):
it's just go get it and I'll andI used to have this little
phrase so that I would use andI'm starting to resurrect it in
my own life. So I when I startedI had no business marketing. I
was grew up in a selfconsciously atheistic home. I
ended up having what I wouldhave at the time described as a
(09:51):
conversion experience when I wasabout 18 years old. I then got
deployed in the military acouple of times use that to pay
for college and during one ofthe employments, I caught a cut
that theological bug. So I endedup going to seminary got a
master's degree Master's indivinity, built this whole
previous life up and then burntit down about a decade ago, like
really successfully burnt itdown. And when I went to what am
(10:17):
I going to do next? I knew Icould write good. And so I
started reverse engineering byexamining articles from
entrepreneur from Fast Companyfrom Forbes from Business
Insider, and with zero effingcredibility, I started cold
pitching editors, full articles,written with the right word
(10:38):
count, interlinks, to theirsite, etc, etc. And I say all of
that to be what I would tellmyself before hitting send on
all of these things. And when Istarted actually pitching
clients and getting clients andraising rates, every time I had
a scary thing to do, I wouldtell myself, let's get rejected,
before I clicked send. And it'sthis exact same thing with fear,
(10:59):
fear. Fear is the thing that'sgoing to hold us back. So
whatever you can do to, to rigthe game in your favor, if you
have to call it line yourself,if you want. For me, it was
making, let's just makerejection the goal. And if I
pretend for a moment, thatrejection is the goal that gets
me over the hump, to justpublish, send, post, get out
(11:23):
there, make the call, send theemail, all of these things that
in its exact same piece, when Isaw your stuff come across, I
was like, Alright, I'm nervous.
I got to fit in my stomach. CanI go this hard on somebody
else's stuff? But that's paidoff so immensely throughout my
career, to not let the fearbecause the fear is the thing
that's going to hold us backstop you from just doing
something just taking the nextstep.
Trevor (11:46):
Yeah, like I pick, I'll pick failure. 10 times out of 10
over regret, failure over regretevery single day. Right, dude, I
thought
Aaron (11:57):
you were going a different direction. I thought
you're gonna say failure oversuccess. And I was gonna kind of
give that a little bit ofpushback of that. That no, like,
Are you kidding me? No. Mightyou go wants to success at once
the numbers? Yes. And so does mylife and my monetary the
considerations all want that.
But failure over regret? To havea
Mark (12:21):
big that was a big thing.
My high school rugby team,right, so I played for Yes, I
played rugby in high school forit's a club called Highland
rugby, and national championshipclub, right? So we we would win
and win the nationalchampionship pretty often I want
to as a senior, but the coachthere wouldn't really ingrain in
people, the mindset where it'slike you either have the pain of
(12:44):
hard work, and failure or thepain of regret. And the pain of
regret lasts a lifetime. But thepain of hard work or failure
only lasts for a moment. Sothat's the difference. Totally,
because you'll never know whatcould have been with regret and
inaction.
Aaron (13:05):
Everything that's cliche and do that drips of cliche, I
don't mean that in a negativeway. What I'm reading is so
Mark (13:11):
motivating.
Aaron (13:13):
It's so true. Right? It's there's these obvious truisms
that I'll tell you, like 90% ofthe benefit of doing these kinds
of things or like when you and Ihung out, but definitely do in
these kinds of conversations,where it's a bit more I'm aware
of what I'm saying and I'mtrying to sound smart is hearing
those kinds of pieces rightthere. Listen to other people
(13:33):
say them out loud, saying themout loud myself and working
those realities that I alreadyknow are true into my from my
head to my heart. I reallyappreciate you bringing that up.
That is a you're right it's it'stemporary. It's fleeting, but it
also emphasizes the idea ofthere's pain in both directions
there's
Mark (13:52):
always pain there's no such thing as a life without
pain. Right so you're going tosuffer no matter what are you
going to suffer towards ameaningful end or a hopeless and
Aaron (14:07):
and that's an A speaks to the other the other piece is
fear or the pain it's sotempting in those moments of
discomfort of pain to think thismeans I'm doing it wrong. It
should be easier this I shouldbe better than this by now.
Right? Right. And you know it'srunners runners are some of the
(14:29):
like they have the best lifemetaphors. So buddy mine Philip
Philip Jackson from futurecommerce recently tweeted that
we're runners say is it doesn'tget easier but you do get
faster. Yeah, I was like, Thatis such a great way to put it
and business is exactly the samelife is exactly the same. And I
(14:51):
just need to say these thingsout loud and hear him working
back in to for another day.
Breathe. Live it
Trevor (14:57):
for sure. Dude, I love I love like The last couple
podcasts we've had, you know,typically a podcast usually goes
like, okay, Aaron, tell us aboutyou, we kind of get into some
like history and blah, you know,blah, blah, blah. But the last
couple episodes have just like,like gone deep, like almost
instantaneous. And I've almostlike, I almost liked that format
(15:21):
a little bit better. Becausesometimes I know, you know,
like, sometimes it can be like,Oh, do I want to know much about
Aaron Orndorff? I don't know,you know, like, your story is
great. And I do want to hearmore about it. Right. But I love
how that kind of went and evenhow you kind of like we can tie
into some of your history rightof what you did and how you kind
of got to where you're at. So Ilove that. Yeah, like all day,
(15:43):
all day long. cliche. Likecliches are my favorite too. By
the way, dude. Like every clicheis true. There's no cliche that
is not true. And for somereason, cliches have got a bad
rap. But I love them now. Like Ilove them. I live by him. That's
awesome. So hey, buddy. Well,let's say tell me a little bit
about let's just jump into you alittle bit. Okay, you were
(16:05):
Shopify you're with commonthread collective to a mate like
to massively huge huge pieces ofexperience in the DVC space and
then what you're doing right nowlet's jump into it and then
let's just let's talk shop let'stalk marketing.
Aaron (16:18):
Yeah. Okay. You want to talk shop marketing you want you
want like the I kind of gave youburned down a previous career.
little backstory on that I cameinto Shopify Plus, this was
seven years ago. So I startedmarketing about a decade ago
spent three, three years runninglike a madman in the way that I
just described, trying to get asmany logos on my site as I could
(16:39):
picking up clients along theway. One of the clients that I
picked up was Shopify Plus,which had just gone from a
whiteboard in some Canadianoffice to a full on CRM with a
growing Salesforce, they hadhired their first marketer to
whip up the site, gentlemannamed Tommy Walker, he set the
stage then they brought in ahead of marketing director of
(17:00):
marketing, Hannah Abaza. Andthen I was the third hire, first
hire she made. So third,overall, there are four or five
of us in the room. The reasonthat's important is because it
goes right back to the let's getrejected idea of throughout my
career, I've just said yes, andthen figured it out later.
Right. It's been the so I had nobusiness writing for an E
(17:22):
commerce, let alone Enterprise Ecommerce. But because I was the
only real key clicker writerlyperson in the room, I got this
amazing opportunity in mycareer. And so turned out Tommy
left, about six months later,there was nobody to run the
trains. So I picked up thescheduling and started working
on landing pages, we did thesecond version of the website,
(17:43):
and we're off to the races. Soby the time I left Shopify, plus
four years later, I was leadingall written content with a very
ill advised job title that theylet me choose myself. So this is
lesson two, I suppose. I don'tknow if we're doing it right,
anytime. So I call myself theeditor in chief because I
thought that was a fancyjournalistic eyebrows sort of
(18:04):
thing. And it was too late. Bythe time I left to realize
nobody outside of thejournalistic world knows what
that is. And it didn't speak tothe level of work that I was
doing running content. Plus, Ijust had an amazing experience
and fell ass backwards intoopportunity there at Shopify
(18:27):
Plus, then I had the greatpleasure of working at common
thread collective as the VicePresident of Marketing, they
really rolled the dice on mecoming from a tried and true
battle tested content marketerinto what was at the time a
three person team and eventuallygrew into nine or 10 of us on
the marketing side of things.
Little bit, the round half thaton the sales side, all through
(18:50):
the COVID pandemic post pandemiciOS 14 rollout. Um, it's just
like a wild time to be at theforefront and really get to be
in the trenches behind thescenes with a lot of really high
growth, differentiated e commDTC brands. So that was another
(19:11):
one of those just fallenbackwards into totally. Ah, and
now I'm at Rijkaard. Rijkaard isan SMS app for Shopify
businesses built a cost less,sell more and drive real growth.
That's our efficiency pitchright there. Three ingredients.
That gets us up today. Okay,that gets us up to date. Dear
listener, mail here, what wewant to talk about, here's
Mark (19:34):
what I want to I want to ask you a question. So you have
a background in theology. Right?
So you graduated from a divinityschool? And then you get into
marketing? Well, a lot oftheology, especially Christian
based theology is centeredaround converting people. Right.
So you get you get intomarketing. So I think there's
(19:56):
kind of a clear, parallel there.
With what you learned, and thenyou're getting into marketing,
which is converting people tobrands, right, and customers. So
I'd like to know, through yourexperience or your background
and what you studied. And nowthat you are in the marketing
space, how has that helped you?
Help brands build followings?
(20:24):
And how do you think about thatwhen you approach your marketing
efforts?
Aaron (20:32):
In the healthiest expressions of religion writ
large, in the healthiestexpressions, the goal of the
evangelist is to communicate inorder to affect change. In its
ugly forms, it's about rallyingthe base or preaching to the
(20:53):
choir. And it's sort of likeretention versus acquisition as
right, there's always a play forcustomer success are your are
your existing followers beingserved followers, I mean,
there's so many of these like,pun just waiting there. I was
really lucky to, I fell in. Andand I don't mean this in
(21:19):
relationship, but the peoplethat I gravitated towards and
consumed during seminary duringthose short couple of years,
when I was actually in full timeministry, were those best
expressions of it. So one of thepeople that probably taught me
more about marketing than anyoneelse is a guy named Tim Keller.
And Tim Keller is a pastor outin NYC, planted a conservative
(21:45):
not in a political sense, but ina religious, Presbyterian, Jesus
love and sort of sense churchout in the heart of Manhattan.
This was probably 1520 years agonow. And they've just grown like
wildfire. And the the trick withthat is Keller's entire ethos is
(22:06):
I don't get to disagree withyou, until I can articulate your
position better than you until Icrawl inside your worldview and
understand the sources and theauthorities from which you
derive your meaning the storythat you already live within
what you wish, or live as ifwe're true in the world, right?
(22:27):
Until I can articulate thatposition as well as you to
create identification,understanding and empathy. And
then I can turn that cornerinto, but there might be a
better way. So on the on thebrand marketing side of things,
it's about identifying yourideal customers, pains, fears,
(22:52):
Hell's frustrations, complaints,hates suspicions, is all the
negative emotions that areswirling around them, picking
one, possibly two, for anythingthat you create, whether that's
an ad that leads to a landingpage that then has a CTA, and it
(23:13):
goes into an email sequence,right, an emotional through line
that is relentlessly honest andfocused on what is the one
boogeyman that is mostpredominant. How can we deal
with that as honestly as wepossibly can and say, Ah, but
there might be a better way.
Right. And that's a lot ofhighfalutin, like theological
meets marketing. Shin that. I'llgive you an example. If you
(23:36):
weren't trying to put flesh onus. Yeah. This is a live example
that that I'm working with rightnow. For Rijkaard, what we
really struggled with wasdeciding on who is our ideal
customer. And that meant a lackof focus on the website and in
the emails and in the ads thatwe produced. And so the first
(23:59):
step in that is really drillinginto who is it that can help you
make the most money? Right? Itsounds like a really crass way
to put it. But what is the sizeof the business? Who is the
decision maker? What are theingredients they need to pay off
and pay off quickly? And thenonce you've identified those,
what what what do they? What arethey most suspicious of and most
(24:24):
complaining about when it comesto something like text message
marketing? Right. So the openinggambit I've been using, when I'm
meeting one on one, and now it'son the website is you know how
you think you suspect you'reoverpaying for SMS and you don't
really trust the results. Sure.
And that is like, let me tellyou, that is such a simple line.
(24:47):
That took me months to get tototally and I wish I'd gotten
there faster. Right? Where itjust that's it's the simplest
encapsulation of so much Shareof what people don't trust and
what they don't like and whatyou see on social media about it
from founders and marketers onthe brand side. Yeah, that's the
(25:09):
fundamental issue. But that'sreally that's all of marketing
into like, they wish there was abetter way. Because that then
leads right into. So what reallymatters, driving real growth?
What does real growth mean?
Well, it means honestattribution, clarity of costs,
and tight attribution windows,and just picking up all these
little things along the way,where then you can build this,
(25:30):
like, it's not going to beperfect. We're gonna try to be
really honest with you about it.
Yeah. But there's an avenue intobuilding trust and getting
someone to raise their hand andbe interested in a way that
without that, if you're justgoing features if you're just
going demo first, that kind ofthing doesn't exist.
Trevor (25:46):
That question that you asked that. You said that was
that lightbulb moment? What?
What did it take for you to getto that question like What did
you have to do to figure thatout?
Aaron (25:57):
There is no replacement for time spent with an honest
conversation with the people youserve. The easiest way to get
into that is, first andforemost, if you've got
frontline customer success,customer experience, whether
you're on like a product side orSAS size agency side, you've got
folks in your organization onthe support that if you
(26:18):
ingratiate yourself to them, ifyou show them support, if you're
make yourself available to addvalue first right to serve them,
then you can carve out time toreally get 1530 minutes of what
are the common struggles thatyou see people face,
particularly when they'reonboarding or first using the
product itself. Alright, soyou've got internal resources of
the people that are closest tothe people that you're serving.
(26:41):
That's usually the easiest wayto start things off. The second
then is so like, I always had myaha moments at Shopify, at
common thread collective when Iwas doing freelance deputy
editor work for Intuit andQuickBooks. Now, Ricart, like
across the board, it's alwayswhen you get into the case
(27:03):
studies, and you try to have anhonest conversations like dude,
okay, okay. Okay. The besteffing line on our homepage is
is not just that opener of theuse suspect you're overpaying
and don't trust the results.
Right? Ricard is an SMS platformfor Shopify businesses built to
(27:24):
cost less, sell more and drivereal growth. And then right
below that is a direct quotefrom Ryan, the CEO of blend jet,
one of our largest merchants,huge, multi channel, Omni
channel in retail, massive DTConline presence, land check. In
that conversation, when we didthe case study interview for it.
(27:45):
It was it was one of the mostawkward case study interviews
I've ever done in my life. AndRyan, along with their CMO, or
their VP of marketing, and theirChief Brand Officer, all three
of them, were there. And I kepttrying to figure out why did
(28:06):
they make the switch to Ricartfrom the competitor, right. And
I could not get a straightanswer. Until the CMO started
talking about when we came overto Ricart. We were warned a
couple of times, it's going tolook like your performance is
worse. You're going to see lowerattributed revenue than you're
(28:27):
used to seeing lower in platformROI. But what we want is the
truth, because this is part ofthat piece of like, don't trust
the results. Right. So thepregame them for that. And then
she said this line about realgrowth, not fake growth. And I
was like, No, that's such anobvious line. But to come from
(28:49):
her mouth, and then Ryanrepeated it later because she
said it and so we put it intothe case study. And it was just
like it was one of those ahamoments of and every place I've
been has always been really it'sthe the conversations where
someone's pretty happy. Butthere's some awkwardness because
you understand the frictionsthat are still going on. Maybe
(29:10):
they didn't have the best cominginexperience or they're carrying
baggage from like, like dude inthe in the case study, right
riot tells a story about wedidn't want to leave, he
literally said the phrase wecame to regard kicking and
screaming. I remember in theinterview being like, What the
hell am I going to do with thisright? What am I going to turn
this into? But then it comes tolike, oh, because another SMS
(29:33):
platform, another migration,another onboarding, another set
of statistics, we're really notsure we can trust and it was in
those conversations where youhave you have like a
breakthrough moment like that.
It doesn't come anywhere elsethan just spending time with the
people that you're serving. Andgetting to a place where they're
(29:54):
comfortable enough to just kinkshoot straight with you. That's
where the real go Old starts tocome in come into. And then I
would say the third place isjust to become a student of what
are people saying in the etheron social media. And go get
yourself embedded in like,three, four or five different
(30:15):
slack groups that arepredominantly occupied by your
your market. And don't go there.
Facebook groups are really goodfor this. If you're in a product
brand Reddit, do Reddit isReddit and YouTube comments are
the dark underbelly of theinternet. And that is where real
value and insight lives wherepeople are like, they are going
(30:37):
to tell you the Ross effingfeelings they have about
specific types of products aboutspecific brands, across the
board from every different typeof SAS agency to physical
product. Those are the placeswhere like internal subject
matter experts who are reallyclose to your customers, getting
to those customers, yourself.
(30:57):
And then third, go into theplaces where those people are
there Rost, and just soakyourself in that ugliness. And
you come back from it being ableto speak their language. That's
what it's all about.
Trevor (31:08):
This episode of The Unstoppable Marketer Podcast is
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(31:30):
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Mark (32:39):
Yeah, like I like a lot of what you've been saying. And
what's interesting about peoplein general and what you said,
like if you can sit with someoneunderstand that person, I think
another way to view people, andthe way they see themselves is
that we are the summation of thestories we tell ourselves. So
there's an internal storyhappening to these people. For
(33:00):
example, a good way of imaginingthis, I think, as a marketer, is
when you watch a movie like StarWars, right? Who are like, who's
the character that they relateto? Like, who's the character
that they see themselves? As? Dothey see themselves as the Luke?
Are they seeing themselves as alay? Are they seeing themselves
(33:21):
as a Han Solo? Are they seeingit? Like, who's the character in
that? What's the inner dialoguehappening? Because it's a funny
example, because you can see itin kids, right? Kids naturally
will take those characters andplay and roleplay those
characters. So it's easy to seewho they see themselves as
nobody sees himself as the dumbStormtrooper getting shot on the
(33:41):
side of the road. But that's whomost of us are right? Like in
like a real situation. Not allof us are this like hero, but we
all see ourselves as either thehero or the victim of a certain
story. So as you see thesestories, I think what stood
stood out about what you saidwas, you can you're not trying
(34:02):
to change the whole story of howsomeone sees themself. You're
just trying to pick out theangle just to help turn them
around a corner instead ofhaving them go straight.
Aaron (34:13):
That is it. That's what Tim Keller taught me. That's
what old school copywriterstaught me when I consumed all
those dead white guys from the1910s 20s and 30s. By all the
old letter books of like thelong form newsletter, and
newspaper and direct mailerslike those is they understood
that psychology of I can'tcreate a desire for this
(34:38):
product. All I can do is take anexisting desire something
somebody wants to avoid orsomething they want to get
closer to and say this will keepyou from that. We will get you
closer to this. Okay, I'm
Mark (34:50):
glad you brought that up because the next thing I wanted
to ask you is what's moremotivating for someone pursuing
Heaven or avoiding hell?
Aaron (34:59):
People Do you hook people with the habit and you close
them with avoiding hell. It'sthe same way people buy with
their hearts. But they need tobe able to justify it with their
(35:20):
heads. Hmm. And I, this is areally big lesson I'm learning
right now, too is as we'venarrowed in on our ideal
customer, at least 25 to 50 milin annual revenue brand, which
already cuts a lot out existingSMS subscriber list of say
(35:43):
50,000 to 100,000. Minimum,those are the people that can
hit the ground running and thatwe can win for win for once we
identify that audience. Theplace I fell and I lost a lot
app was I thought what theyneeded to know was we do all of
the things that you need to do.
And so the the first iterationsof like, the new decks, the new
(36:05):
emails that I built, were allabout these like points of
differentiation, when what I nowsee that people really want in
that first initial when they hitthe website, when they get into
a meeting with you is what isyour vision for what could be?
And how does your product pointtowards that even if it can't
actually do it yet. Thatinspires people and also just an
(36:27):
emotional environment ofenthusiasm on the side of
whoever is doing the presentingof you thought it was this way
for so long. This is the newway, this is a way for it. And
it actually overlaps with thatdeeper relationship. You want
higher LTV that you want withyour client, you want your
customer and your leads toconvert quicker, it's it's doing
(36:48):
all of these things in a waythat no one else is going to
allow you to do. Right? It'spainting a vision of the future
that's right there on the edgewith a couple of points up. And
that's where I think it it threwme off. It was like I kept
getting stuff stuck on like thebut we can't really do that yet.
And what I've learned was peopledon't really care. At the care
point is, you might gonna looklike an effing idiot if I buy.
(37:13):
Yeah, right? Can it's like theystill want to check off the
boxes at the end of like, if Iget this, can it still actually
do all the things I need to do?
Yeah, but what gets them andmove them close to that point of
setting a dotted line. So thatthen you can go through the list
of yeah, do we check check,check integrations, etc. All the
unsexy things is that firstinitial vision, so and it's that
(37:33):
heaven environment. And I thinkit's the same thing for consumer
products, as well, that it's notleading with the fear, it's
leading with tapping into thethat desire of what they want to
be who they want to seethemselves as what they want to
accomplish that kind of thingfirst, and then making sure when
(37:54):
they hit the lander, there's theprice check and the social proof
and all the product details,etc, etc.
Mark (37:59):
I think a good example of that would be ford f 150s.
Right, the best selling vehiclein the United States for how
many years? Okay, let's let's berealistic and say how many
people out there andpredominantly men who buy them
actually need a truck?
Aaron (38:23):
To get into Europe? Not?
Not yet.
Mark (38:26):
I mean, none of them.
Right. Maybe maybe the ones onfarms, and the ones going to
construction construction sites.
Yeah, right.
Aaron (38:36):
But manly men among us and yeah,
Mark (38:39):
look, you look down my street, and I think there's two
or three ford f 150s. Yeah. Howmany days in a year? Do those
have anything in the truck bed?
Yeah, I mean, literally, never.
And do they need a truck bed?
No. But like the aspiration?
What does what does a man orwoman feel like when they get an
(38:59):
F 150? They feel capable? Right?
They all feel like they're goingto use it all the time? Oh, yes.
Like I have a truck. I am nowcapable. I can do these things.
The feeling of it. Right? Andthen obviously, you got to check
all the boxes of what a truck isand the brand, whatever. But I
think the Ford f150 is a perfectexample of you know, it's not
practical. Yeah, in any sense.
(39:23):
It's not useful, really for mostpeople. But why does it sell so?
Well? It's because people wantto feel like the American man or
woman in a big f150 truck.
Aaron (39:36):
It's the it's the vision of myself that it completes that
I that I wish. I want to be seenas Yeah, even if I don't Yeah,
that's actually a really, that'sa great example of form beats
function. I'm not buying it forthe things that can do. I'm
buying it for the person
Trevor (39:56):
I can become. There it is.
Mark (39:59):
But you I check all those function boxes off as
justification, right? Well,well, hey, I can help move
furniture that one time everyfive years I can. I can help
someone out of a gutter. I don'tknow, like, you come up with
these reasons why you need it.
Aaron (40:13):
And I still need to run well, and yeah, safety can play
a part of it. Yeah, there's likethese things that like you still
gotta be this tall to ride theride. Yeah, absolutely.
Mark (40:22):
My family safe in its big exam.
Aaron (40:25):
Yeah. That's the that's actually new to me, too, as
well, like, people are moremotivated. This is one of those
fundamentals of just humanpsychology, we're moving, we're
more motivated to avoid painthan we are to pursue pleasure.
That's the flip side of this is.
Yeah. It's just a dance. There'sart to all of this about, at
what point do you push on what Iam?
Trevor (40:53):
Now very interesting.
It's so funny, as you guys gothrough that example, as I'm
sitting here, like listening.
I've been contemplating a truckfor, like, six months now. And
I'm like, yeah, they like I've,you guys literally just went
through everything and made mefeel silly for thinking about
wanting to buy a truck. I don'town a boat. I don't own a
(41:14):
camper. You know, what's thewhat's the one I got? One, I got
some breaks from time to time, Imight need a break, you know,
move around. It's a nice,
Aaron (41:24):
single truck, flag and ego. And that's all you need.
Trevor is eventually that'll bethat. Yeah. Especially if you
let yourself go. Because thenit's like, then you gotta get a
big old truck, you got to get atruck that'll be pushed, they
will know what happened. If wesee you rolling down in here.
Yeah,
Trevor (41:43):
I've gained a few
Mark (41:45):
10 pounds, man. But it's a it's a fascinating, I'd like to
add that you said it's an art. Ithink at the end of the day
marketing is an art right? And Ithink the problem is that too
many people try to turn it intoa formula and a mathematic
equation. And, yes, a lot.
There's a lot of math andstrategy and data to pull behind
it. But ultimately understandinga person and connecting with
(42:09):
them on an emotional level is alot of an art form. And I think
you probably learned a lot ofthat through your background and
how to write and how tosynthesize these key points. And
my question for you is what area lot of consumer brands, in
your opinion missing when tryingto connect to their audience and
(42:30):
build a brand.
Aaron (42:38):
There's still very few consumer brands that do content
well, and the ones that do.
There's a reason names likeliquid death, the creative
angle, if you subscribe to theiremail and SMS, it is off the
charts. And it's just a simpleextension of what they're all
(42:59):
about knowing their audience andcreating a multiplicity of
options to engage with themthrough merchandise, through
snark, through humor, throughdark humor. I think them I think
of somebody like the hundredsstreetwear brand. Obviously many
(43:22):
Katana Isaac is just getting allkinds of love out there in the
social world right now. Becausewhat they're doing with tick
tock and short form video andYouTube shorts, and the I mean
the meteoric growth of theirbrand on the back of that sort
of contents,
Mark (43:40):
all organic to until recently, all organic
Aaron (43:45):
track Smith is another shining example of every time
they do a new lookbook release.
It's accompanied by these longform journalistic picturesque
landing pages, and in somecases, even microsites. And then
what's so interesting aboutthose sort of pieces are, it's
this content backbone, thatisn't easy. And it in every one
(44:08):
of those cases, there is thedeep sensibility and union where
you know, the people that areproducing this content are the
same people that are producingthis product. And they are part
and parcel of the community thatproducing it for that they're
runners or they're obsessed withstreetwear and fashion itself.
Or, like Jim shark was such agreat example of the way that
(44:31):
they they hit that sweet spotbetween aspirational people that
are just yoked and beautiful andyou're never going to look like
that with a whole host of Imean, like the untraditional,
non traditional choices they'vemade in models alongside that
(44:51):
backbone of very traditional,it's like you go to the site,
and it's like, okay, like, butthen they've got this content
side of transgender, differentlyabled people, folks from
oppressed groups, where theypick the spotlights that shine
into. And it seems like they'rewalking in both worlds. And it
(45:16):
gives them an unfair advantage,when they go out to do the thing
that every brand has to do,which is advertise. It's that
content backbone that's builton. They are so obviously a part
of the communities that theyserve, that they couldn't not
create that particular form thatthey create, and it builds a
(45:36):
bridge and then gives them justan unfair arsenal with which to
load up into the ad account.
Alright, and if you looked ateither one of those in
isolation, it'd be easy to thinkwhat we need to do is go get
more creative. And what itreally is, is digging deeper
into like we were talking aboutthe story, and making sure
you're not inviting someone intoyour story, but entering theirs
(45:58):
to be of service and spendingthat time inside the community
serving the community. I thinkabout kalo is another really
good example. We're inprimitive, both of those
initially starting out servingthe CrossFit community and then
expanding out from there, wherethese brands are just synonymous
with the people that they serve.
And they create content drivenexperiences to bring that to
life.
Trevor (46:19):
You know, we we had a, we had the founder of will the
CEO and founder of raindropagency on the podcast. You know,
Jacque Spitzer. Yeah. And hesaid something that kind of like
blew our minds. It's so stupid,because it's just like, Oh,
yeah. You know, it's not aboutyour why. It's about their why.
(46:43):
Right? Everybody's been socaught up in like, Hey, make
sure you understand your why asa company as a brand. But at the
end of the day, it's like, no,it's about their why, why did
liquid death make that can, theway they made that can write
when you hear the success story?
It was because you know, if Iremember right, it was because
(47:04):
they were at events like UFC,and everybody's out there
drinking. And for the people whowanted to look the part but
didn't want to drink. They coulddo that. That was their why it
turned a commodity into a brand.
But you don't see at
Aaron (47:22):
this time. What's great about raindrop is it also shows
you how you do need thatscience. These are professionals
side of things as well. BecauseI mean, some of the stuff
they've done for like, Dr.
Squatch, and loom,
Mark (47:42):
you know, native native.
Oh, right. Da reg Alamy. Theyjust served reg up a net new ad.
Aaron (47:51):
Goodness. Right. And it's the bringing together of those
two, that's so powerful.
Totally.
Mark (47:58):
Yeah. And clearly there is a science behind it. I mean,
even with storytelling, soeverybody knows the hero's
journey. And why? Why is it thatthe hero's journey always
resonates with somebody, right?
Like, that's the journey thateveryone wants to see, like you
can make every movie is a hero'sjourney, right? And everyone
will still go watch those moviesevery single time. And it just
follows the same template. Butthere's different emotional
(48:21):
connectors in that journey ofwhy it relates to certain
audiences or, or others, right,or why it resonates with certain
audiences, and not others. Sothere is but then again, it's
still an art to put together amovie or an ad. And so
Aaron (48:36):
gills and there's reason pacing, yeah, timing matter. And
opening with the fire, openingwith whatever, you know,
especially the differencebetween Long Form storytelling
and cinema and short formcreative that works either
organic, social, or especiallypay opening, with the climax,
opening with the reveal, to grabthat attention to break the
(48:58):
scroll to get them to stop,right, these sorts of things
where there's a lot of analyticsbehind that. And I saw that a
time at common threadcollective, where we would just
go through these eight metricsof attention. What's the does it
break the impressions versusthree second stop? Right? What's
(49:18):
What's the attention rate?
Mark (49:20):
Like that is stopping rate. And these
Aaron (49:23):
things were like, and if you can't get the first one, you
don't get
Trevor (49:26):
any of the others? Yeah.
Right. And so
Aaron (49:29):
there is there's a system to it at the same time as there
is. But you can smell thedifference, right? You can taste
the difference. When this wasmade for us by us that kind of
piece. Yeah. You can tell.
Mark (49:46):
Totally. Yeah, you you totally can tell and I think a
lot of smaller brands. Well,this is maybe not all small
brands, right? But when you'rejust getting going and you're
lean If you're trying to createsomething, you're trying to get
something off the ground, theremight be a tendency to try to
(50:06):
just dissolve everything to themost, quote, efficient way. And
as you do that, like yes, maybethat is the most efficient way.
But then you start losing thatcreative flexibility of how
maybe you want to presentsomething, or you want to grow
something. And it's a balance,like you need to do what works
like you don't want to just goout there and try to reinvent a
wheel that's already beeninvented. Right? But you can add
(50:30):
some rims to that wheel.
Aaron (50:34):
And you've got to say like, the mistake I'll make is,
I think more is more, that isthe like, that's one of my giant
flaws. And if you've ever readanything I've put out or seen
like a Twitter thread is like,how many of these are going to
be guy Come on, calm down?
Right? That's, that's the piecewhere
Mark (50:50):
actually seminary that's the seminary background. Yeah,
it's giving a sermon.
Aaron (50:57):
The ability to distill put first things first. Is is
also it's at a premium, youknow, as competition ramps up,
not just competition for walletshare, but also for attention
share. That's a ability to do todistill. brevity is the soul of
(51:19):
wit, I didn't have time to writea long a short letter server a
long one, instead, write thesekinds of growth right back to
the cliches. Yeah, it's reallyit is so much harder to write a
pop in 100 word, ad or emailthan it is to write a 1000 word
plus blog article.
Trevor (51:39):
So true. So true. Yeah, that's I mean, like, we used to
market I used to work togetherin a previous life. And we
managed a big massive, we were acontent creating machine, you
know, so articles, blogs, wewere just generating leads,
because we were just drivingtraffic. And that was one thing,
we'd always tell him like, hey,like, it doesn't matter. Like,
(52:00):
if you can't get somebody tostop for three seconds, and
you're not a good writer. Anyonecan write 2000 words, 3000
words. But like those seven to100 words, like that's the
hardest part. Right? You're nota good marketer unless you can
get that.
Aaron (52:19):
Talk about understanding your audience. And also, by the
way, we're, I'm acutely aware ofhow long we've gone, given the
exact topic that we're talkingabout. So we'd better wrap this
up soon give people Yeah, butone of the things I did when we
were rolling out this newmessaging was to also meet with
as many people that I hadacquaintances with, who were
(52:42):
inside that ideal customeraudience. And so I hit about
1520 2530. I'm just keep doingthis over and over again to
continue to hone it. So I'mstill in the process of doing
this. One of the people I metwith was Eric Bandholz from
Beardbrand. And that this is soperfect, right? Let's make maybe
this is the story to end on to.
Because the same way thatinterview with blend jet was the
(53:04):
most uncomfortable case studyinterview I've ever had in my
career. And I was like, What amI going to do with this? Yeah,
and then it turns into suit itjust glorious. That conversation
I had with Eric was wildlyuncomfortable. And it's because
I opened with the whole, youknow, what do you suspect don't
trust, we've engineeredefficiency through five
(53:26):
features, no other SMS platformoffers, and nine times out of
1099 times out of 100. All theother people I met with go
Interesting. Okay, what arethose five things? Not Eric?
Eric says, why not just onething? And I was like, I do not
have a good answer for that.
(53:47):
Yeah. And that is probably themost honest response to that
idea of less is more that Ididn't want to hear. And now
that's like, the next frontierfor me is like, Okay, how do we
distill this even more? How doyou get to that one thing? That
is the reason that fits theirnarrative that fits their story
that puts your product, yourservice, in the light that they
(54:10):
want to see it in, like, that'sthe next frontier. That's the
really difficult part, too. Andwhen you've got that the unlock
can be enormous.
Mark (54:20):
Well, what he's what he was saying, calling out I love
that story, because you listedfive things and he said, Why not
one thing? And maybe that onething is what you learned in
another uncomfortable situation,which is, hey, real growth, not
fake growth. Right? There's yourreal I'm not the guy to make the
(54:41):
call. But there's the one thingsummarized, and then you have
all the reasons which is thefive things right like that's
the hook. And then you have yourfive things. This is what
Trevor (54:52):
keeps you around now.
Aaron (54:55):
Y'all been good. I got to work out some of my little bit.
A little bit of brainstorming.
Trevor (55:02):
Well, yeah, this has been. This is, this is the
beauty about this podcast. Andso for those of you listening
like we never like we weretelling Aaron this before, like
Mark and I never have questions.
Like we just don't that's notour vibe, right? Not that
there's anything wrong withthat. But like, that's the
beauty because I did not seethis podcast going this way.
Personally, I don't know if INo, I thought we were going to
(55:22):
talk a lot about writing and wehave talked don't get me wrong,
we have like, but, um, yeah, Ithought we're gonna talk a lot
more about SMS. But this what'sbeen beautiful about this
podcast is like, I think everybrand is struck every brand, as
you know, whether they're in theproduct base DTC, or and
they're, they're in the SASspace, every, every brand is
(55:44):
struggling with this problem.
However, nobody's identifyingthat this is the problem they're
struggling with. Instead, peopleare like, oh, let's, What
channels do we need to beworking on? What you know, when
in reality, it's like, do youeven know who your ideal
customer is yet like that, likethat is this is a second podcast
(56:05):
in the last what week that we'verecorded? Brett from kissick
said this exact same thing.
Right. It was just, you got toknow it talked about the person
talk to him talk about a brandthat knows their customer.
Right. Oh, and
Aaron (56:19):
in their content. Yeah, they've got that unfair. That's
Oh, they're added. It's such anunfair
Trevor (56:27):
advantage. Totally.
Aaron (56:29):
You have some of the most memorable Oh, you're right.
That's such a good one. Yeah.
And go figure it comes fromsomebody who's talking about
that exact same thing. Exactly.
Where are we for? And where arewe not for?
Mark (56:41):
Yeah, bingo.
Trevor (56:43):
This has been awesome.
Aaron, thank you so much, man.
We really appreciate you. Youcoming on the podcast. We went a
little longer than probablyanticipated, you know, but this
was amazing. Dude, Aaron, wherecan people find you? You're not
You're not just you're not justa marketing expert. You are a
content creator as well. Forthose of you don't know this
guy, the written word both onLinkedIn and Twitter. He is
(57:06):
owning those channels. So pleasetell us where Dells where people
can find you.
Aaron (57:10):
I believe I'm the only Aaron Orndorff on Google. So I'm
super easy to find Aaronorndorff.com will take you to my
personal website iconic content.
You can find me on Twitter atAaron Orndorff on the same slash
Aaron Orndorff on LinkedIn. Ihave posted once to tick tock
and zero times to Instagram butI do have accounts there so you
(57:31):
can you can go check out thevideo I've made with my
daughter's suit years ago ontick tock and if you really want
to ingratiate yourself to me forsome reason. That's that's the
low hanging fruit is just gonnasay something nice or comment on
the one video I made with my kidI was on Tik Tok.
Trevor (57:46):
Amazing. Aaron, thanks so much, my friend. We really
appreciate it. We love workingwith you love that you came on.
Everybody. Thank you so much forjoining the unstoppable Marketer
Podcast. We'll see you nextTuesday. Thank you so much for
listening to the unstoppableMarketer Podcast. Please go rate
and subscribe the podcastwhether it's good or bad. We
(58:08):
want to hear from you. Becausewe always want to make this
podcast better. If you want toget in touch with me or give me
any direct feedback. Please gofollow me and get in touch with
me. I am at the Trevor Crump onboth Instagram and Tiktok thank
you and we will see you nextweek.
Yo, what's going on everybody? Welcome to the
unstoppable Marketer Podcastwith me as always is my lovely
co host who cut his hair. Markgoldheart What's up, Mark?
Mark (00:11):
Oh, I'm doing great. I like how it's changed from the
the one with beautiful hair tothe one who cut his hair.
Trevor (00:17):
Yeah, you're just getting closer and closer to me.
Mark (00:20):
I'm just you know, I did see some thinning out maybe so.
My, my hair days are numbered.
Trevor (00:29):
Dude, if you're in your 30s and you're not bald, and I
just think like, you're just,you're good. You're probably
gonna like, You're gonna befine. Me It happened when I was
like, probably 2425. Likehappened to coincide with like
when I had my first kid to theanimal life defining moment. I
don't know if it really was alife defining moment. It really
(00:50):
was. I thought to myself, Okay,I can never let myself go. I've
lost my hair. So now I can't letmyself go. Physically, I gotta
stay in better shape. I can'thave that against me. So that's,
uh, that's that's what I but Iluckily I nap a nap up a life
too. So she just has to love menow at this point, right? Yeah.
Well, dude, I'm excited fortoday. We got an awesome guest.
(01:13):
Um, and I'm I guess let's justintroduce him.
Unknown (01:16):
Yeah, let's do it.
Trevor (01:17):
Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay, drumroll. Drumroll,
please. Our guest today is Aaronorendorff Aaron Orndorff, who is
currently the head of marketingfor an SMS technical are one of
them as they say I'm a technicalfor an SMS provider called
Rijkaard. X Shopify x commonthread collective. This man's
(01:43):
rap sheet is legit. You go lookat his LinkedIn profile his
resume, it's legit Aaronwelcome. What's up, buddy? I'm
gonna
Aaron (01:51):
pull the ultimate. No, we curse on the show. Right? That's
fine. Sure. Okay,
Trevor (01:55):
we'll just make it explicit. You know, but you can
hear us Can I tell you something
Aaron (01:58):
blue asshole move. And I'm going to reveal like, do I
have such a glorious head ofhair underneath this after
you're such a jerk? I know. Lookat Yes, I know. I wear hats
constantly because I'm lazy. Andthen I've got my like, lose 10
(02:19):
years and get it all styled upmoolah. Get
Trevor (02:22):
that do man you can be in a 70s movie with that kind of
hair. Like typically
Aaron (02:27):
I like to ingratiate myself to the host, but I'm just
gonna side with Mark this time.
And I really pour it on thick.
Trevor (02:32):
We're co hosts. So you got it. You had to pick one
side. Right?
Mark (02:36):
And Trevor needs a little humble pie. Everyone's Yeah, you
know? Yeah. Oh, don't we all
Trevor (02:42):
just is what it is. You know, I guess it's funny you say
you asked to swear on thispodcast. So you know, you know,
teach their own. But I actuallynoticed this. So the other day,
my son comes into my room. Well,we put them all to bed, right?
And my wife and I just got intobed. And we when our kids get a
(03:05):
certain age, we give them all anAlexa for their room to listen
to audiobooks, like they so theyfall, they'll fall asleep to an
audiobook, you know, and theyjust love it. It's like their
jam
Mark (03:14):
story is that you guys are just CIA informants and just
want to make sure they havedirect access to your kids.
Right?
Trevor (03:20):
Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
And so all of a sudden my sonjust like comes like barging
into our room like scares us todeath. And he's just got this.
He's like grinning from ear toear. And he's like, yeah, he's
holding up like his his wristlike this because of debt. Debt.
Guess what? We're, what is this?
What am I? What am I doing? AndI'm like, Dude, I don't know
what you're doing. My son'seight, by the way. That look,
look at this. And I'm like,dude, dude, I don't His name is
(03:41):
Jude. I'm like, Dude, I have noidea what you're doing, bro. And
he goes, Mark's mom. And I goMark's mom. And he goes, Yeah,
Mark's mom, she broke her wrist.
And marks marks. Sunset yuckywhen he saw the wrist. And I'm
like, What? What is he talkingabout? And I'm like, why are you
saying this? He's like, theunstoppable Marketer Podcast.
And I'm like, What do you mean?
(04:05):
And apparently, he's he got on.
He's been listening to everyepisode of ours on his own on
his own falls asleep to it. AndMark I can't remember if you if
you can remember this mark, butyou were taught you have like
your mom happened to break herwrist and she kind of like wrist
Mark (04:21):
and we showed our kids that picture. And he didn't know
what to say. He's like, is thatyucky dad? Yeah, because, like
bent out of place.
Trevor (04:31):
He just busted up when he heard that part. Just thought
it was the funniest thing thatyour son would say that and so
now Yeah, so yes. And every nowand every time now, when
somebody or me swears on thepodcast. He'll come in and be
like, Dad, you swore did
Aaron (04:45):
oh, so we might get chastised. So you're done.
Trevor (04:48):
So I had to do a shout out I gotta do a shout out to
him. Dude, you're the man.
You're the best. He's gonna hearthat and he's gonna go like
Berserk guaranteed. So now
Aaron (04:57):
I'm what a little asshole because I can't out that I've
got three daughters 1012 and 16.
And they could give zero appsabout what I do or who I hang
out with. Every once in a whileI'll wander into some
connection. It's typically withYouTube, like, back when I was
at Shopify Plus the purplefolks, I got to interview them.
(05:21):
We did a couple of articlestogether. And that was one of
those moments of like, oh, theegg matches people with the
Sasquatch and the denona. Yeah,all right. I got a moment. I got
like, I have a few of thosebreakthrough from time to time,
but they're so rare. So yeah.
Judy, and little jerk.
Trevor (05:40):
He's the Caesar stud.
Well, that errand Dude, I'm sostoked to have you on this has
been a long time coming. Icannot for the life. Oh, I just
remember how we got connected.
If I recall, I always do this. Ialways try to find like Barker,
I tried to find a connection tothe guest. So it's not like
super random that I was like,Hey, Aaron, you want to jump on?
Right? I got connected throughyou. Because I created a piece
(06:05):
of content. And I just just leteverybody know, I am a Rijkaard
user. Right, straight up I am.
And I just happen to be creatinga piece of content like hey,
here are some like tools that ifyou're in a certain, you know,
style business, you can't livewithout you. And I think I just
highlighted Rijkaard. Yeah, andyou had reached out like this is
(06:25):
awesome. Thank you so much. Andthat was I got the introduction.
I wasn't meaning to do that atall just simply just, Hey, I
like this tool and this is why
Aaron (06:35):
do you remember so this item maybe this goes into our
first marketing lessonunstoppable marketer right
because one of my keys to beingan unstoppable marketer, I don't
know if you do this on the show.
What are the fundamentalingredients is borderline ne
full on shamelessness whensomething out there is good and
you can use it? Because I don'tknow if you remember that
(06:56):
experience. But I think we gotflagged over the weekend.
Somebody brought it up in ourslack because I'm barely on Tik
Tok. So someone else in ourmarketing team, wonderful woman
named Isla I spotted it grabbedit. And I was like, download
personal account, Twitter,LinkedIn branded account,
Twitter, LinkedIn, turn it intoa thread, go tag all of the
other brands that you'reassociated with, push it out
(07:16):
into the email, like we justtook this one piece of content
was my ham on it. And I was sonervous because like, I'm just
doing it. And let's see how thedude response Yeah, I had no
idea it was gonna turn intolike, I just it's so funny to
level up. I have nerves in thosesorts of moments. Sure. I'm just
gonna go do it. I'm just on it.
(07:37):
Let's let's push it out. This isquality. Especially because it's
unprompted, UGC, in that sense,and your real customer at both
at an agency level as well asyour brand's level. Yeah, I are
very nervous. And you were sogracious about it. Now that I
know you of course, you're nowthat I know you. It makes all
the sense in the world. But itmeant a lot to get that and it
meant even more that you didn'ttake me to task when I check
(07:59):
your stuff and put it everywhereand possibly
Trevor (08:04):
actually, you guys owe me like $500 for that. So no,
what's what's really cool aboutthat, like just this is just
like a lesson in and of whateveryou want to whatever lesson you
can, if you are listening tothis, you can take whatever
lessons you want out of this.
What's cool about that is likeso I created a piece of content,
zero strings attached but that'sjust like who I am like I don't
do paid content. So there's it'salways zero strings attached for
(08:25):
me, right? Like my content islike I just want to get the most
value to a customer or consumeror listener of whatever right.
But since that has happened likewe have done lots of business
together Yeah, I've been on twoor three webinars with you. You
I flew out to Portland and youand me went and did breakfast so
(08:50):
I've since like met you inperson there's a lot can happen
through content creation and andjust through like, like you
said, just like risking it likelisten, I'm gonna post this
about it like I would not knowwho you guys were or anything
like that. Had you guys notposted anything, right? Like you
wouldn't be would probably notbe chatting
Aaron (09:09):
and people get out there and go hard if you smell like
you get that instinct of thishas legs. This is something this
is a person I want to get up intheir world. Ask for forgiveness
later. Just go for every once ina while you'll run into somebody
who does the kind of be a jerkabout it. But for the most part,
(09:31):
it's just go get it and I'll andI used to have this little
phrase so that I would use andI'm starting to resurrect it in
my own life. So I when I startedI had no business marketing. I
was grew up in a selfconsciously atheistic home. I
ended up having what I wouldhave at the time described as a
(09:51):
conversion experience when I wasabout 18 years old. I then got
deployed in the military acouple of times use that to pay
for college and during one ofthe employments, I caught a cut
that theological bug. So I endedup going to seminary got a
master's degree Master's indivinity, built this whole
previous life up and then burntit down about a decade ago, like
really successfully burnt itdown. And when I went to what am
(10:17):
I going to do next? I knew Icould write good. And so I
started reverse engineering byexamining articles from
entrepreneur from Fast Companyfrom Forbes from Business
Insider, and with zero effingcredibility, I started cold
pitching editors, full articles,written with the right word
(10:38):
count, interlinks, to theirsite, etc, etc. And I say all of
that to be what I would tellmyself before hitting send on
all of these things. And when Istarted actually pitching
clients and getting clients andraising rates, every time I had
a scary thing to do, I wouldtell myself, let's get rejected,
before I clicked send. And it'sthis exact same thing with fear,
(10:59):
fear. Fear is the thing that'sgoing to hold us back. So
whatever you can do to, to rigthe game in your favor, if you
have to call it line yourself,if you want. For me, it was
making, let's just makerejection the goal. And if I
pretend for a moment, thatrejection is the goal that gets
me over the hump, to justpublish, send, post, get out
(11:23):
there, make the call, send theemail, all of these things that
in its exact same piece, when Isaw your stuff come across, I
was like, Alright, I'm nervous.
I got to fit in my stomach. CanI go this hard on somebody
else's stuff? But that's paidoff so immensely throughout my
career, to not let the fearbecause the fear is the thing
that's going to hold us backstop you from just doing
something just taking the nextstep.
Trevor (11:46):
Yeah, like I pick, I'll pick failure. 10 times out of 10
over regret, failure over regretevery single day. Right, dude, I
thought
Aaron (11:57):
you were going a different direction. I thought
you're gonna say failure oversuccess. And I was gonna kind of
give that a little bit ofpushback of that. That no, like,
Are you kidding me? No. Mightyou go wants to success at once
the numbers? Yes. And so does mylife and my monetary the
considerations all want that.
But failure over regret? To havea
Mark (12:21):
big that was a big thing.
My high school rugby team,right, so I played for Yes, I
played rugby in high school forit's a club called Highland
rugby, and national championshipclub, right? So we we would win
and win the nationalchampionship pretty often I want
to as a senior, but the coachthere wouldn't really ingrain in
people, the mindset where it'slike you either have the pain of
(12:44):
hard work, and failure or thepain of regret. And the pain of
regret lasts a lifetime. But thepain of hard work or failure
only lasts for a moment. Sothat's the difference. Totally,
because you'll never know whatcould have been with regret and
inaction.
Aaron (13:05):
Everything that's cliche and do that drips of cliche, I
don't mean that in a negativeway. What I'm reading is so
Mark (13:11):
motivating.
Aaron (13:13):
It's so true. Right? It's there's these obvious truisms
that I'll tell you, like 90% ofthe benefit of doing these kinds
of things or like when you and Ihung out, but definitely do in
these kinds of conversations,where it's a bit more I'm aware
of what I'm saying and I'mtrying to sound smart is hearing
those kinds of pieces rightthere. Listen to other people
(13:33):
say them out loud, saying themout loud myself and working
those realities that I alreadyknow are true into my from my
head to my heart. I reallyappreciate you bringing that up.
That is a you're right it's it'stemporary. It's fleeting, but it
also emphasizes the idea ofthere's pain in both directions
there's
Mark (13:52):
always pain there's no such thing as a life without
pain. Right so you're going tosuffer no matter what are you
going to suffer towards ameaningful end or a hopeless and
Aaron (14:07):
and that's an A speaks to the other the other piece is
fear or the pain it's sotempting in those moments of
discomfort of pain to think thismeans I'm doing it wrong. It
should be easier this I shouldbe better than this by now.
Right? Right. And you know it'srunners runners are some of the
(14:29):
like they have the best lifemetaphors. So buddy mine Philip
Philip Jackson from futurecommerce recently tweeted that
we're runners say is it doesn'tget easier but you do get
faster. Yeah, I was like, Thatis such a great way to put it
and business is exactly the samelife is exactly the same. And I
(14:51):
just need to say these thingsout loud and hear him working
back in to for another day.
Breathe. Live it
Trevor (14:57):
for sure. Dude, I love I love like The last couple
podcasts we've had, you know,typically a podcast usually goes
like, okay, Aaron, tell us aboutyou, we kind of get into some
like history and blah, you know,blah, blah, blah. But the last
couple episodes have just like,like gone deep, like almost
instantaneous. And I've almostlike, I almost liked that format
(15:21):
a little bit better. Becausesometimes I know, you know,
like, sometimes it can be like,Oh, do I want to know much about
Aaron Orndorff? I don't know,you know, like, your story is
great. And I do want to hearmore about it. Right. But I love
how that kind of went and evenhow you kind of like we can tie
into some of your history rightof what you did and how you kind
of got to where you're at. So Ilove that. Yeah, like all day,
(15:43):
all day long. cliche. Likecliches are my favorite too. By
the way, dude. Like every clicheis true. There's no cliche that
is not true. And for somereason, cliches have got a bad
rap. But I love them now. Like Ilove them. I live by him. That's
awesome. So hey, buddy. Well,let's say tell me a little bit
about let's just jump into you alittle bit. Okay, you were
(16:05):
Shopify you're with commonthread collective to a mate like
to massively huge huge pieces ofexperience in the DVC space and
then what you're doing right nowlet's jump into it and then
let's just let's talk shop let'stalk marketing.
Aaron (16:18):
Yeah. Okay. You want to talk shop marketing you want you
want like the I kind of gave youburned down a previous career.
little backstory on that I cameinto Shopify Plus, this was
seven years ago. So I startedmarketing about a decade ago
spent three, three years runninglike a madman in the way that I
just described, trying to get asmany logos on my site as I could
(16:39):
picking up clients along theway. One of the clients that I
picked up was Shopify Plus,which had just gone from a
whiteboard in some Canadianoffice to a full on CRM with a
growing Salesforce, they hadhired their first marketer to
whip up the site, gentlemannamed Tommy Walker, he set the
stage then they brought in ahead of marketing director of
(17:00):
marketing, Hannah Abaza. Andthen I was the third hire, first
hire she made. So third,overall, there are four or five
of us in the room. The reasonthat's important is because it
goes right back to the let's getrejected idea of throughout my
career, I've just said yes, andthen figured it out later.
Right. It's been the so I had nobusiness writing for an E
(17:22):
commerce, let alone Enterprise Ecommerce. But because I was the
only real key clicker writerlyperson in the room, I got this
amazing opportunity in mycareer. And so turned out Tommy
left, about six months later,there was nobody to run the
trains. So I picked up thescheduling and started working
on landing pages, we did thesecond version of the website,
(17:43):
and we're off to the races. Soby the time I left Shopify, plus
four years later, I was leadingall written content with a very
ill advised job title that theylet me choose myself. So this is
lesson two, I suppose. I don'tknow if we're doing it right,
anytime. So I call myself theeditor in chief because I
thought that was a fancyjournalistic eyebrows sort of
(18:04):
thing. And it was too late. Bythe time I left to realize
nobody outside of thejournalistic world knows what
that is. And it didn't speak tothe level of work that I was
doing running content. Plus, Ijust had an amazing experience
and fell ass backwards intoopportunity there at Shopify
(18:27):
Plus, then I had the greatpleasure of working at common
thread collective as the VicePresident of Marketing, they
really rolled the dice on mecoming from a tried and true
battle tested content marketerinto what was at the time a
three person team and eventuallygrew into nine or 10 of us on
the marketing side of things.
Little bit, the round half thaton the sales side, all through
(18:50):
the COVID pandemic post pandemiciOS 14 rollout. Um, it's just
like a wild time to be at theforefront and really get to be
in the trenches behind thescenes with a lot of really high
growth, differentiated e commDTC brands. So that was another
(19:11):
one of those just fallenbackwards into totally. Ah, and
now I'm at Rijkaard. Rijkaard isan SMS app for Shopify
businesses built a cost less,sell more and drive real growth.
That's our efficiency pitchright there. Three ingredients.
That gets us up today. Okay,that gets us up to date. Dear
listener, mail here, what wewant to talk about, here's
Mark (19:34):
what I want to I want to ask you a question. So you have
a background in theology. Right?
So you graduated from a divinityschool? And then you get into
marketing? Well, a lot oftheology, especially Christian
based theology is centeredaround converting people. Right.
So you get you get intomarketing. So I think there's
(19:56):
kind of a clear, parallel there.
With what you learned, and thenyou're getting into marketing,
which is converting people tobrands, right, and customers. So
I'd like to know, through yourexperience or your background
and what you studied. And nowthat you are in the marketing
space, how has that helped you?
Help brands build followings?
(20:24):
And how do you think about thatwhen you approach your marketing
efforts?
Aaron (20:32):
In the healthiest expressions of religion writ
large, in the healthiestexpressions, the goal of the
evangelist is to communicate inorder to affect change. In its
ugly forms, it's about rallyingthe base or preaching to the
(20:53):
choir. And it's sort of likeretention versus acquisition as
right, there's always a play forcustomer success are your are
your existing followers beingserved followers, I mean,
there's so many of these like,pun just waiting there. I was
really lucky to, I fell in. Andand I don't mean this in
(21:19):
relationship, but the peoplethat I gravitated towards and
consumed during seminary duringthose short couple of years,
when I was actually in full timeministry, were those best
expressions of it. So one of thepeople that probably taught me
more about marketing than anyoneelse is a guy named Tim Keller.
And Tim Keller is a pastor outin NYC, planted a conservative
(21:45):
not in a political sense, but ina religious, Presbyterian, Jesus
love and sort of sense churchout in the heart of Manhattan.
This was probably 1520 years agonow. And they've just grown like
wildfire. And the the trick withthat is Keller's entire ethos is
(22:06):
I don't get to disagree withyou, until I can articulate your
position better than you until Icrawl inside your worldview and
understand the sources and theauthorities from which you
derive your meaning the storythat you already live within
what you wish, or live as ifwe're true in the world, right?
(22:27):
Until I can articulate thatposition as well as you to
create identification,understanding and empathy. And
then I can turn that cornerinto, but there might be a
better way. So on the on thebrand marketing side of things,
it's about identifying yourideal customers, pains, fears,
(22:52):
Hell's frustrations, complaints,hates suspicions, is all the
negative emotions that areswirling around them, picking
one, possibly two, for anythingthat you create, whether that's
an ad that leads to a landingpage that then has a CTA, and it
(23:13):
goes into an email sequence,right, an emotional through line
that is relentlessly honest andfocused on what is the one
boogeyman that is mostpredominant. How can we deal
with that as honestly as wepossibly can and say, Ah, but
there might be a better way.
Right. And that's a lot ofhighfalutin, like theological
meets marketing. Shin that. I'llgive you an example. If you
(23:36):
weren't trying to put flesh onus. Yeah. This is a live example
that that I'm working with rightnow. For Rijkaard, what we
really struggled with wasdeciding on who is our ideal
customer. And that meant a lackof focus on the website and in
the emails and in the ads thatwe produced. And so the first
(23:59):
step in that is really drillinginto who is it that can help you
make the most money? Right? Itsounds like a really crass way
to put it. But what is the sizeof the business? Who is the
decision maker? What are theingredients they need to pay off
and pay off quickly? And thenonce you've identified those,
what what what do they? What arethey most suspicious of and most
(24:24):
complaining about when it comesto something like text message
marketing? Right. So the openinggambit I've been using, when I'm
meeting one on one, and now it'son the website is you know how
you think you suspect you'reoverpaying for SMS and you don't
really trust the results. Sure.
And that is like, let me tellyou, that is such a simple line.
(24:47):
That took me months to get tototally and I wish I'd gotten
there faster. Right? Where itjust that's it's the simplest
encapsulation of so much Shareof what people don't trust and
what they don't like and whatyou see on social media about it
from founders and marketers onthe brand side. Yeah, that's the
(25:09):
fundamental issue. But that'sreally that's all of marketing
into like, they wish there was abetter way. Because that then
leads right into. So what reallymatters, driving real growth?
What does real growth mean?
Well, it means honestattribution, clarity of costs,
and tight attribution windows,and just picking up all these
little things along the way,where then you can build this,
(25:30):
like, it's not going to beperfect. We're gonna try to be
really honest with you about it.
Yeah. But there's an avenue intobuilding trust and getting
someone to raise their hand andbe interested in a way that
without that, if you're justgoing features if you're just
going demo first, that kind ofthing doesn't exist.
Trevor (25:46):
That question that you asked that. You said that was
that lightbulb moment? What?
What did it take for you to getto that question like What did
you have to do to figure thatout?
Aaron (25:57):
There is no replacement for time spent with an honest
conversation with the people youserve. The easiest way to get
into that is, first andforemost, if you've got
frontline customer success,customer experience, whether
you're on like a product side orSAS size agency side, you've got
folks in your organization onthe support that if you
(26:18):
ingratiate yourself to them, ifyou show them support, if you're
make yourself available to addvalue first right to serve them,
then you can carve out time toreally get 1530 minutes of what
are the common struggles thatyou see people face,
particularly when they'reonboarding or first using the
product itself. Alright, soyou've got internal resources of
the people that are closest tothe people that you're serving.
(26:41):
That's usually the easiest wayto start things off. The second
then is so like, I always had myaha moments at Shopify, at
common thread collective when Iwas doing freelance deputy
editor work for Intuit andQuickBooks. Now, Ricart, like
across the board, it's alwayswhen you get into the case
(27:03):
studies, and you try to have anhonest conversations like dude,
okay, okay. Okay. The besteffing line on our homepage is
is not just that opener of theuse suspect you're overpaying
and don't trust the results.
Right? Ricard is an SMS platformfor Shopify businesses built to
(27:24):
cost less, sell more and drivereal growth. And then right
below that is a direct quotefrom Ryan, the CEO of blend jet,
one of our largest merchants,huge, multi channel, Omni
channel in retail, massive DTConline presence, land check. In
that conversation, when we didthe case study interview for it.
(27:45):
It was it was one of the mostawkward case study interviews
I've ever done in my life. AndRyan, along with their CMO, or
their VP of marketing, and theirChief Brand Officer, all three
of them, were there. And I kepttrying to figure out why did
(28:06):
they make the switch to Ricartfrom the competitor, right. And
I could not get a straightanswer. Until the CMO started
talking about when we came overto Ricart. We were warned a
couple of times, it's going tolook like your performance is
worse. You're going to see lowerattributed revenue than you're
(28:27):
used to seeing lower in platformROI. But what we want is the
truth, because this is part ofthat piece of like, don't trust
the results. Right. So thepregame them for that. And then
she said this line about realgrowth, not fake growth. And I
was like, No, that's such anobvious line. But to come from
(28:49):
her mouth, and then Ryanrepeated it later because she
said it and so we put it intothe case study. And it was just
like it was one of those ahamoments of and every place I've
been has always been really it'sthe the conversations where
someone's pretty happy. Butthere's some awkwardness because
you understand the frictionsthat are still going on. Maybe
(29:10):
they didn't have the best cominginexperience or they're carrying
baggage from like, like dude inthe in the case study, right
riot tells a story about wedidn't want to leave, he
literally said the phrase wecame to regard kicking and
screaming. I remember in theinterview being like, What the
hell am I going to do with thisright? What am I going to turn
this into? But then it comes tolike, oh, because another SMS
(29:33):
platform, another migration,another onboarding, another set
of statistics, we're really notsure we can trust and it was in
those conversations where youhave you have like a
breakthrough moment like that.
It doesn't come anywhere elsethan just spending time with the
people that you're serving. Andgetting to a place where they're
(29:54):
comfortable enough to just kinkshoot straight with you. That's
where the real go Old starts tocome in come into. And then I
would say the third place isjust to become a student of what
are people saying in the etheron social media. And go get
yourself embedded in like,three, four or five different
(30:15):
slack groups that arepredominantly occupied by your
your market. And don't go there.
Facebook groups are really goodfor this. If you're in a product
brand Reddit, do Reddit isReddit and YouTube comments are
the dark underbelly of theinternet. And that is where real
value and insight lives wherepeople are like, they are going
(30:37):
to tell you the Ross effingfeelings they have about
specific types of products aboutspecific brands, across the
board from every different typeof SAS agency to physical
product. Those are the placeswhere like internal subject
matter experts who are reallyclose to your customers, getting
to those customers, yourself.
(30:57):
And then third, go into theplaces where those people are
there Rost, and just soakyourself in that ugliness. And
you come back from it being ableto speak their language. That's
what it's all about.
Trevor (31:08):
This episode of The Unstoppable Marketer Podcast is
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(31:30):
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Mark (32:39):
Yeah, like I like a lot of what you've been saying. And
what's interesting about peoplein general and what you said,
like if you can sit with someoneunderstand that person, I think
another way to view people, andthe way they see themselves is
that we are the summation of thestories we tell ourselves. So
there's an internal storyhappening to these people. For
(33:00):
example, a good way of imaginingthis, I think, as a marketer, is
when you watch a movie like StarWars, right? Who are like, who's
the character that they relateto? Like, who's the character
that they see themselves? As? Dothey see themselves as the Luke?
Are they seeing themselves as alay? Are they seeing themselves
(33:21):
as a Han Solo? Are they seeingit? Like, who's the character in
that? What's the inner dialoguehappening? Because it's a funny
example, because you can see itin kids, right? Kids naturally
will take those characters andplay and roleplay those
characters. So it's easy to seewho they see themselves as
nobody sees himself as the dumbStormtrooper getting shot on the
(33:41):
side of the road. But that's whomost of us are right? Like in
like a real situation. Not allof us are this like hero, but we
all see ourselves as either thehero or the victim of a certain
story. So as you see thesestories, I think what stood
stood out about what you saidwas, you can you're not trying
(34:02):
to change the whole story of howsomeone sees themself. You're
just trying to pick out theangle just to help turn them
around a corner instead ofhaving them go straight.
Aaron (34:13):
That is it. That's what Tim Keller taught me. That's
what old school copywriterstaught me when I consumed all
those dead white guys from the1910s 20s and 30s. By all the
old letter books of like thelong form newsletter, and
newspaper and direct mailerslike those is they understood
that psychology of I can'tcreate a desire for this
(34:38):
product. All I can do is take anexisting desire something
somebody wants to avoid orsomething they want to get
closer to and say this will keepyou from that. We will get you
closer to this. Okay, I'm
Mark (34:50):
glad you brought that up because the next thing I wanted
to ask you is what's moremotivating for someone pursuing
Heaven or avoiding hell?
Aaron (34:59):
People Do you hook people with the habit and you close
them with avoiding hell. It'sthe same way people buy with
their hearts. But they need tobe able to justify it with their
(35:20):
heads. Hmm. And I, this is areally big lesson I'm learning
right now, too is as we'venarrowed in on our ideal
customer, at least 25 to 50 milin annual revenue brand, which
already cuts a lot out existingSMS subscriber list of say
(35:43):
50,000 to 100,000. Minimum,those are the people that can
hit the ground running and thatwe can win for win for once we
identify that audience. Theplace I fell and I lost a lot
app was I thought what theyneeded to know was we do all of
the things that you need to do.
And so the the first iterationsof like, the new decks, the new
(36:05):
emails that I built, were allabout these like points of
differentiation, when what I nowsee that people really want in
that first initial when they hitthe website, when they get into
a meeting with you is what isyour vision for what could be?
And how does your product pointtowards that even if it can't
actually do it yet. Thatinspires people and also just an
(36:27):
emotional environment ofenthusiasm on the side of
whoever is doing the presentingof you thought it was this way
for so long. This is the newway, this is a way for it. And
it actually overlaps with thatdeeper relationship. You want
higher LTV that you want withyour client, you want your
customer and your leads toconvert quicker, it's it's doing
(36:48):
all of these things in a waythat no one else is going to
allow you to do. Right? It'spainting a vision of the future
that's right there on the edgewith a couple of points up. And
that's where I think it it threwme off. It was like I kept
getting stuff stuck on like thebut we can't really do that yet.
And what I've learned was peopledon't really care. At the care
point is, you might gonna looklike an effing idiot if I buy.
(37:13):
Yeah, right? Can it's like theystill want to check off the
boxes at the end of like, if Iget this, can it still actually
do all the things I need to do?
Yeah, but what gets them andmove them close to that point of
setting a dotted line. So thatthen you can go through the list
of yeah, do we check check,check integrations, etc. All the
unsexy things is that firstinitial vision, so and it's that
(37:33):
heaven environment. And I thinkit's the same thing for consumer
products, as well, that it's notleading with the fear, it's
leading with tapping into thethat desire of what they want to
be who they want to seethemselves as what they want to
accomplish that kind of thingfirst, and then making sure when
(37:54):
they hit the lander, there's theprice check and the social proof
and all the product details,etc, etc.
Mark (37:59):
I think a good example of that would be ford f 150s.
Right, the best selling vehiclein the United States for how
many years? Okay, let's let's berealistic and say how many
people out there andpredominantly men who buy them
actually need a truck?
Aaron (38:23):
To get into Europe? Not?
Not yet.
Mark (38:26):
I mean, none of them.
Right. Maybe maybe the ones onfarms, and the ones going to
construction construction sites.
Yeah, right.
Aaron (38:36):
But manly men among us and yeah,
Mark (38:39):
look, you look down my street, and I think there's two
or three ford f 150s. Yeah. Howmany days in a year? Do those
have anything in the truck bed?
Yeah, I mean, literally, never.
And do they need a truck bed?
No. But like the aspiration?
What does what does a man orwoman feel like when they get an
(38:59):
F 150? They feel capable? Right?
They all feel like they're goingto use it all the time? Oh, yes.
Like I have a truck. I am nowcapable. I can do these things.
The feeling of it. Right? Andthen obviously, you got to check
all the boxes of what a truck isand the brand, whatever. But I
think the Ford f150 is a perfectexample of you know, it's not
practical. Yeah, in any sense.
(39:23):
It's not useful, really for mostpeople. But why does it sell so?
Well? It's because people wantto feel like the American man or
woman in a big f150 truck.
Aaron (39:36):
It's the it's the vision of myself that it completes that
I that I wish. I want to be seenas Yeah, even if I don't Yeah,
that's actually a really, that'sa great example of form beats
function. I'm not buying it forthe things that can do. I'm
buying it for the person
Trevor (39:56):
I can become. There it is.
Mark (39:59):
But you I check all those function boxes off as
justification, right? Well,well, hey, I can help move
furniture that one time everyfive years I can. I can help
someone out of a gutter. I don'tknow, like, you come up with
these reasons why you need it.
Aaron (40:13):
And I still need to run well, and yeah, safety can play
a part of it. Yeah, there's likethese things that like you still
gotta be this tall to ride theride. Yeah, absolutely.
Mark (40:22):
My family safe in its big exam.
Aaron (40:25):
Yeah. That's the that's actually new to me, too, as
well, like, people are moremotivated. This is one of those
fundamentals of just humanpsychology, we're moving, we're
more motivated to avoid painthan we are to pursue pleasure.
That's the flip side of this is.
Yeah. It's just a dance. There'sart to all of this about, at
what point do you push on what Iam?
Trevor (40:53):
Now very interesting.
It's so funny, as you guys gothrough that example, as I'm
sitting here, like listening.
I've been contemplating a truckfor, like, six months now. And
I'm like, yeah, they like I've,you guys literally just went
through everything and made mefeel silly for thinking about
wanting to buy a truck. I don'town a boat. I don't own a
(41:14):
camper. You know, what's thewhat's the one I got? One, I got
some breaks from time to time, Imight need a break, you know,
move around. It's a nice,
Aaron (41:24):
single truck, flag and ego. And that's all you need.
Trevor is eventually that'll bethat. Yeah. Especially if you
let yourself go. Because thenit's like, then you gotta get a
big old truck, you got to get atruck that'll be pushed, they
will know what happened. If wesee you rolling down in here.
Yeah,
Trevor (41:43):
I've gained a few
Mark (41:45):
10 pounds, man. But it's a it's a fascinating, I'd like to
add that you said it's an art. Ithink at the end of the day
marketing is an art right? And Ithink the problem is that too
many people try to turn it intoa formula and a mathematic
equation. And, yes, a lot.
There's a lot of math andstrategy and data to pull behind
it. But ultimately understandinga person and connecting with
(42:09):
them on an emotional level is alot of an art form. And I think
you probably learned a lot ofthat through your background and
how to write and how tosynthesize these key points. And
my question for you is what area lot of consumer brands, in
your opinion missing when tryingto connect to their audience and
(42:30):
build a brand.
Aaron (42:38):
There's still very few consumer brands that do content
well, and the ones that do.
There's a reason names likeliquid death, the creative
angle, if you subscribe to theiremail and SMS, it is off the
charts. And it's just a simpleextension of what they're all
(42:59):
about knowing their audience andcreating a multiplicity of
options to engage with themthrough merchandise, through
snark, through humor, throughdark humor. I think them I think
of somebody like the hundredsstreetwear brand. Obviously many
(43:22):
Katana Isaac is just getting allkinds of love out there in the
social world right now. Becausewhat they're doing with tick
tock and short form video andYouTube shorts, and the I mean
the meteoric growth of theirbrand on the back of that sort
of contents,
Mark (43:40):
all organic to until recently, all organic
Aaron (43:45):
track Smith is another shining example of every time
they do a new lookbook release.
It's accompanied by these longform journalistic picturesque
landing pages, and in somecases, even microsites. And then
what's so interesting aboutthose sort of pieces are, it's
this content backbone, thatisn't easy. And it in every one
(44:08):
of those cases, there is thedeep sensibility and union where
you know, the people that areproducing this content are the
same people that are producingthis product. And they are part
and parcel of the community thatproducing it for that they're
runners or they're obsessed withstreetwear and fashion itself.
Or, like Jim shark was such agreat example of the way that
(44:31):
they they hit that sweet spotbetween aspirational people that
are just yoked and beautiful andyou're never going to look like
that with a whole host of Imean, like the untraditional,
non traditional choices they'vemade in models alongside that
(44:51):
backbone of very traditional,it's like you go to the site,
and it's like, okay, like, butthen they've got this content
side of transgender, differentlyabled people, folks from
oppressed groups, where theypick the spotlights that shine
into. And it seems like they'rewalking in both worlds. And it
(45:16):
gives them an unfair advantage,when they go out to do the thing
that every brand has to do,which is advertise. It's that
content backbone that's builton. They are so obviously a part
of the communities that theyserve, that they couldn't not
create that particular form thatthey create, and it builds a
(45:36):
bridge and then gives them justan unfair arsenal with which to
load up into the ad account.
Alright, and if you looked ateither one of those in
isolation, it'd be easy to thinkwhat we need to do is go get
more creative. And what itreally is, is digging deeper
into like we were talking aboutthe story, and making sure
you're not inviting someone intoyour story, but entering theirs
(45:58):
to be of service and spendingthat time inside the community
serving the community. I thinkabout kalo is another really
good example. We're inprimitive, both of those
initially starting out servingthe CrossFit community and then
expanding out from there, wherethese brands are just synonymous
with the people that they serve.
And they create content drivenexperiences to bring that to
life.
Trevor (46:19):
You know, we we had a, we had the founder of will the
CEO and founder of raindropagency on the podcast. You know,
Jacque Spitzer. Yeah. And hesaid something that kind of like
blew our minds. It's so stupid,because it's just like, Oh,
yeah. You know, it's not aboutyour why. It's about their why.
(46:43):
Right? Everybody's been socaught up in like, Hey, make
sure you understand your why asa company as a brand. But at the
end of the day, it's like, no,it's about their why, why did
liquid death make that can, theway they made that can write
when you hear the success story?
It was because you know, if Iremember right, it was because
(47:04):
they were at events like UFC,and everybody's out there
drinking. And for the people whowanted to look the part but
didn't want to drink. They coulddo that. That was their why it
turned a commodity into a brand.
But you don't see at
Aaron (47:22):
this time. What's great about raindrop is it also shows
you how you do need thatscience. These are professionals
side of things as well. BecauseI mean, some of the stuff
they've done for like, Dr.
Squatch, and loom,
Mark (47:42):
you know, native native.
Oh, right. Da reg Alamy. Theyjust served reg up a net new ad.
Aaron (47:51):
Goodness. Right. And it's the bringing together of those
two, that's so powerful.
Totally.
Mark (47:58):
Yeah. And clearly there is a science behind it. I mean,
even with storytelling, soeverybody knows the hero's
journey. And why? Why is it thatthe hero's journey always
resonates with somebody, right?
Like, that's the journey thateveryone wants to see, like you
can make every movie is a hero'sjourney, right? And everyone
will still go watch those moviesevery single time. And it just
follows the same template. Butthere's different emotional
(48:21):
connectors in that journey ofwhy it relates to certain
audiences or, or others, right,or why it resonates with certain
audiences, and not others. Sothere is but then again, it's
still an art to put together amovie or an ad. And so
Aaron (48:36):
gills and there's reason pacing, yeah, timing matter. And
opening with the fire, openingwith whatever, you know,
especially the differencebetween Long Form storytelling
and cinema and short formcreative that works either
organic, social, or especiallypay opening, with the climax,
opening with the reveal, to grabthat attention to break the
(48:58):
scroll to get them to stop,right, these sorts of things
where there's a lot of analyticsbehind that. And I saw that a
time at common threadcollective, where we would just
go through these eight metricsof attention. What's the does it
break the impressions versusthree second stop? Right? What's
(49:18):
What's the attention rate?
Mark (49:20):
Like that is stopping rate. And these
Aaron (49:23):
things were like, and if you can't get the first one, you
don't get
Trevor (49:26):
any of the others? Yeah.
Right. And so
Aaron (49:29):
there is there's a system to it at the same time as there
is. But you can smell thedifference, right? You can taste
the difference. When this wasmade for us by us that kind of
piece. Yeah. You can tell.
Mark (49:46):
Totally. Yeah, you you totally can tell and I think a
lot of smaller brands. Well,this is maybe not all small
brands, right? But when you'rejust getting going and you're
lean If you're trying to createsomething, you're trying to get
something off the ground, theremight be a tendency to try to
(50:06):
just dissolve everything to themost, quote, efficient way. And
as you do that, like yes, maybethat is the most efficient way.
But then you start losing thatcreative flexibility of how
maybe you want to presentsomething, or you want to grow
something. And it's a balance,like you need to do what works
like you don't want to just goout there and try to reinvent a
wheel that's already beeninvented. Right? But you can add
(50:30):
some rims to that wheel.
Aaron (50:34):
And you've got to say like, the mistake I'll make is,
I think more is more, that isthe like, that's one of my giant
flaws. And if you've ever readanything I've put out or seen
like a Twitter thread is like,how many of these are going to
be guy Come on, calm down?
Right? That's, that's the piecewhere
Mark (50:50):
actually seminary that's the seminary background. Yeah,
it's giving a sermon.
Aaron (50:57):
The ability to distill put first things first. Is is
also it's at a premium, youknow, as competition ramps up,
not just competition for walletshare, but also for attention
share. That's a ability to do todistill. brevity is the soul of
(51:19):
wit, I didn't have time to writea long a short letter server a
long one, instead, write thesekinds of growth right back to
the cliches. Yeah, it's reallyit is so much harder to write a
pop in 100 word, ad or emailthan it is to write a 1000 word
plus blog article.
Trevor (51:39):
So true. So true. Yeah, that's I mean, like, we used to
market I used to work togetherin a previous life. And we
managed a big massive, we were acontent creating machine, you
know, so articles, blogs, wewere just generating leads,
because we were just drivingtraffic. And that was one thing,
we'd always tell him like, hey,like, it doesn't matter. Like,
(52:00):
if you can't get somebody tostop for three seconds, and
you're not a good writer. Anyonecan write 2000 words, 3000
words. But like those seven to100 words, like that's the
hardest part. Right? You're nota good marketer unless you can
get that.
Aaron (52:19):
Talk about understanding your audience. And also, by the
way, we're, I'm acutely aware ofhow long we've gone, given the
exact topic that we're talkingabout. So we'd better wrap this
up soon give people Yeah, butone of the things I did when we
were rolling out this newmessaging was to also meet with
as many people that I hadacquaintances with, who were
(52:42):
inside that ideal customeraudience. And so I hit about
1520 2530. I'm just keep doingthis over and over again to
continue to hone it. So I'mstill in the process of doing
this. One of the people I metwith was Eric Bandholz from
Beardbrand. And that this is soperfect, right? Let's make maybe
this is the story to end on to.
Because the same way thatinterview with blend jet was the
(53:04):
most uncomfortable case studyinterview I've ever had in my
career. And I was like, What amI going to do with this? Yeah,
and then it turns into suit itjust glorious. That conversation
I had with Eric was wildlyuncomfortable. And it's because
I opened with the whole, youknow, what do you suspect don't
trust, we've engineeredefficiency through five
(53:26):
features, no other SMS platformoffers, and nine times out of
1099 times out of 100. All theother people I met with go
Interesting. Okay, what arethose five things? Not Eric?
Eric says, why not just onething? And I was like, I do not
have a good answer for that.
(53:47):
Yeah. And that is probably themost honest response to that
idea of less is more that Ididn't want to hear. And now
that's like, the next frontierfor me is like, Okay, how do we
distill this even more? How doyou get to that one thing? That
is the reason that fits theirnarrative that fits their story
that puts your product, yourservice, in the light that they
(54:10):
want to see it in, like, that'sthe next frontier. That's the
really difficult part, too. Andwhen you've got that the unlock
can be enormous.
Mark (54:20):
Well, what he's what he was saying, calling out I love
that story, because you listedfive things and he said, Why not
one thing? And maybe that onething is what you learned in
another uncomfortable situation,which is, hey, real growth, not
fake growth. Right? There's yourreal I'm not the guy to make the
(54:41):
call. But there's the one thingsummarized, and then you have
all the reasons which is thefive things right like that's
the hook. And then you have yourfive things. This is what
Trevor (54:52):
keeps you around now.
Aaron (54:55):
Y'all been good. I got to work out some of my little bit.
A little bit of brainstorming.
Trevor (55:02):
Well, yeah, this has been. This is, this is the
beauty about this podcast. Andso for those of you listening
like we never like we weretelling Aaron this before, like
Mark and I never have questions.
Like we just don't that's notour vibe, right? Not that
there's anything wrong withthat. But like, that's the
beauty because I did not seethis podcast going this way.
Personally, I don't know if INo, I thought we were going to
(55:22):
talk a lot about writing and wehave talked don't get me wrong,
we have like, but, um, yeah, Ithought we're gonna talk a lot
more about SMS. But this what'sbeen beautiful about this
podcast is like, I think everybrand is struck every brand, as
you know, whether they're in theproduct base DTC, or and
they're, they're in the SASspace, every, every brand is
(55:44):
struggling with this problem.
However, nobody's identifyingthat this is the problem they're
struggling with. Instead, peopleare like, oh, let's, What
channels do we need to beworking on? What you know, when
in reality, it's like, do youeven know who your ideal
customer is yet like that, likethat is this is a second podcast
(56:05):
in the last what week that we'verecorded? Brett from kissick
said this exact same thing.
Right. It was just, you got toknow it talked about the person
talk to him talk about a brandthat knows their customer.
Right. Oh, and
Aaron (56:19):
in their content. Yeah, they've got that unfair. That's
Oh, they're added. It's such anunfair
Trevor (56:27):
advantage. Totally.
Aaron (56:29):
You have some of the most memorable Oh, you're right.
That's such a good one. Yeah.
And go figure it comes fromsomebody who's talking about
that exact same thing. Exactly.
Where are we for? And where arewe not for?
Mark (56:41):
Yeah, bingo.
Trevor (56:43):
This has been awesome.
Aaron, thank you so much, man.
We really appreciate you. Youcoming on the podcast. We went a
little longer than probablyanticipated, you know, but this
was amazing. Dude, Aaron, wherecan people find you? You're not
You're not just you're not justa marketing expert. You are a
content creator as well. Forthose of you don't know this
guy, the written word both onLinkedIn and Twitter. He is
(57:06):
owning those channels. So pleasetell us where Dells where people
can find you.
Aaron (57:10):
I believe I'm the only Aaron Orndorff on Google. So I'm
super easy to find Aaronorndorff.com will take you to my
personal website iconic content.
You can find me on Twitter atAaron Orndorff on the same slash
Aaron Orndorff on LinkedIn. Ihave posted once to tick tock
and zero times to Instagram butI do have accounts there so you
(57:31):
can you can go check out thevideo I've made with my
daughter's suit years ago ontick tock and if you really want
to ingratiate yourself to me forsome reason. That's that's the
low hanging fruit is just gonnasay something nice or comment on
the one video I made with my kidI was on Tik Tok.
Trevor (57:46):
Amazing. Aaron, thanks so much, my friend. We really
appreciate it. We love workingwith you love that you came on.
Everybody. Thank you so much forjoining the unstoppable Marketer
Podcast. We'll see you nextTuesday. Thank you so much for
listening to the unstoppableMarketer Podcast. Please go rate
and subscribe the podcastwhether it's good or bad. We
(58:08):
want to hear from you. Becausewe always want to make this
podcast better. If you want toget in touch with me or give me
any direct feedback. Please gofollow me and get in touch with
me. I am at the Trevor Crump onboth Instagram and Tiktok thank
you and we will see you nextweek.
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