July 14, 2019 • 53 mins
What happens when a member of your family or community is NOT a good ally or worse, completely rejects us for who we are? Our long-time friend and DC Center for the LGBT Community’s Board Co-Chair, Rehana Mohammed joins us to talk about her intersectional identities. She also shows us how being an ally can get messy when you live in a tight-knit community, and provides tangible tips for how to ask for allyship when folks in that community aren't quite getting it right.
Check out S1E3 episode notes for full speaker bios, episode highlights, links to references, and for a fully accessible interview transcript.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rehana (00:00):
To me, allyship is not passive.
It is active.
It requires commitment andaction constantly.
It requires you to thinkcritically about situations in
your everyday life.
Gaby (00:17):
Hola Hola, it's me Gaby Acosta
Jenelle (00:20):
And me, Jenelle Acosta.
We're high school sweethearts ona journey to be better allies.
Gaby (00:26):
You're listening to The Way We Lead, were we talk about
inclusive leadership allyshipand advocacy with folks across
identities, industries andexperiences.
Jenelle (00:34):
If you're new here, welcome! You can follow us on
Facebook, Instagram and Twitterusing the handle@thewaywelead.
Gaby (00:43):
We're glad you're here! Let's jump in.
Rehana (00:47):
Hi, I'm Rehana Mohammed and I'm a nonprofit management
professional in DC and Co- chairof the board of directors at the
DC Center for the LGBTcommunity.
Gaby (00:57):
Yeah, you are.
Jenelle (00:59):
Get it!
Gaby (00:59):
You're also one of our best friends in the whole world
and we've known you since wewere like eddy bitty, like
pretty....
Rehana (01:09):
Five, four?
Gaby (01:10):
No, because I moved to the U.S.
when I was eight.
We were in the Bilingual edprogram together.
Rehana (01:15):
Yes,
Gaby (01:15):
at Rolling Terrace elementary school
Rehana (01:17):
RT
Gaby (01:18):
RT! And Jenelle
Jenelle (01:22):
was also there, but I was not cool enough to be in
the, in the immersion program.
I was in special Ed my wholeeducation.
Gaby (01:27):
Did y'all know each other?
Jenelle (01:29):
You know, I was just thinking about that
Rehana (01:31):
on the bus, little bit
Jenelle (01:33):
Which bus?
Oh, because we did get picked upat the corner, didn't we?
Gaby (01:37):
Ya'll were neighbors
Rehana (01:38):
and I officiated your wedding.
Gaby (01:40):
You did.
We became, I think real buds inlike high school.
Rehana (01:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gaby (01:47):
We didn't go to middle school together.
Rehana (01:48):
We went to different middle schools
Gaby (01:50):
and then in high school we were both in the communication
arts program.
Rehana (01:54):
Yup.
(01:55):
And Jenelle was part of our, our crew because she was my
lady.
Rehana (01:59):
Yeah.
Main lady
Gaby (02:02):
My main squeeze.
Jenelle (02:04):
You can call me that more often.
That's fine.
Gaby (02:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You've, you've been my lady fora long time.
Jenelle (02:10):
This is true
Gaby (02:11):
I had this very, uh, vivid memory today of being at a
Halloween party the year afterJenelle and I started dating and
I had just come out and I don'tknow, I must have had a lot of
emotions being a teenager, but Ijust remember embracing you and
squeezing you so hard and sayingsomething to the effect of like,
(02:33):
you're the only one who gets me.
Rehana (02:36):
Oh my God.
That's beautiful.
Gaby (02:39):
[laughter]
(02:39):
That is just a beautiful memory.
I wish, I wish I could say Iremember that vividly too.
I have a really bad memory.
Gaby (02:45):
and I think it was pretty random for you.
You were probably like, what areyou talking about?
Rehana (02:51):
You know what though?
I'm positive.
I, I felt the same.
Cause I feel the same now
Gaby (02:55):
but I think we had a lot of parallels in our life.
Rehana (03:00):
Yeah, totally.
And then we also reconnectedafter Undergrad and um, we kind
of were chilling in theaqueerium.
Gaby (03:10):
Yeah
Rehana (03:10):
Remember that magical summer i n the aqueerium.
That's what they dubbed theirhouse.
Gaby (03:12):
We had dubbed our house the aqueerium because we just
started collecting a lot of likebeautiful queer people.
Jenelle (03:21):
Well, we moved back.
Rehana (03:21):
It was amazing
Jenelle (03:22):
We moved back from college and it was me and you,
and then we had two of our otherfriends who were lesbian and
dating and then a lot of you,you came over a lot.
Rehana (03:32):
Yup.
Jenelle (03:33):
Um, so adding more queer people to it.
Gaby (03:35):
And then that was the year that, um, I think you and I had
just, um, co-facilitated, well,we weren't in the same
community, but we'd just done adelegation down to El Salvador,
which is where I'm from.
And we had a lot of delegateswho were also, you know, I would
say on the queer spectrum.
Rehana (03:57):
Yes.
Gaby (03:58):
And after this delegation, we all bonded really closely and
, and we just ended up spendinga lot of time at our house, like
hanging out, like shooting theshit and enjoying each other's
company in a space that we justfelt good in
Rehana (04:13):
very good times.
Gaby (04:14):
Yeah.
Rehana (04:14):
Very good times in the aqueerium.
Gaby (04:16):
It was awesome.
Jenelle (04:17):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, around the blockwas, what is it?
So if we walk from my house andturned around the corner, then
it was your house and then in arow were three of our other
friend's house, right?
Rehana (04:29):
Yeah.
Jenelle (04:29):
Like everybody lived right next door to one another.
Gaby (04:31):
Yeah
Rehana (04:31):
it was awesome
Gaby (04:33):
And we spent just, you know, we had all just graduated
college and we didn't know whatwe were doing with our lives and
we all needed some direction andhelp.
And it was just nice having thatpeer mentorship and like people
who like just got it.
Who are like, I, I feel you man.
I'm still totally lost.
Rehana (04:52):
[laughs] Totally.
Jenelle (04:52):
I think for me that point was when I fell in love
with you, like in our friendshipbecause you have always been,
um, in my eyes, just veryconfident in who you are.
And I was always a littleintimidated by you because you
were, you were way cooler than Iwas at that point.
Gaby (05:13):
Yeah.
You've always been really cool
Jenelle (05:14):
you've always been cooler than me, but you were
Gaby (05:17):
for the, for the nerds, you're the coolest thing.
Jenelle (05:19):
Yes, yes.
I agree
Rehana (05:19):
[laughs] Right, I feel like that's an important caveat.
Gaby (05:24):
Yeah.
Jenelle (05:24):
Yes.
We were all nerds.
Gaby (05:26):
We were in a magnet program together.
Rehana (05:28):
Yeah.
Gaby (05:29):
Let's not forget
Jenelle (05:30):
I was not, but you were , yeah
Rehana (05:31):
I tried to hit all the nerd categories.
I mean, I was an AV nerd.
I was in a nerdy communicationsprogram.
I was a star Trek nerd.
I was also a marching band nerd.
Jenelle (05:44):
Wait, you were in marching band?
Rehana (05:45):
Oh yeah.
It's so funny to hear you saythat.
You thought I was cool cause Ithought you guys were super
cool.
Gaby (05:50):
No!
Rehana (05:51):
Yes!
Jenelle (05:52):
So I want to go down this tangent for a second
because it relates to all of us.
And in the last, I'd say liketwo months, there's been a lot
of people from my past who havecome up to me and said something
in the realm of like, I wasreally intimidated by you or you
always were so confident, youwere so cool.
And I was like[inaudible] no.
Like I, I never felt that way.
(06:14):
I'll talk specifically formyself after college.
Like I would talk with Gaby andshe would say the same thing
back of like, we love Rehana,Rehana's so cool.
Like she's just so much coolerthan us.
She knows what she likes.
She, she, she feels veryconfident being herself and
standing up for what shebelieves in.
And you had very strong goals ofwhat you want to accomplish in
your life even then, I think,did you feel that way?
(06:35):
Did you feel confident and cool?
Rehana (06:39):
Wow.
Now, now it got deep.
Um, I think that I was sort ofraised in a philosophy of, um,
don't look to celebrities andtraditional kind of hero figures
to model your life after kind oflook in and, and think about
(07:02):
what you think is right and whatyou want to do.
And I think that that helped me,um, that helped me kind of
cultivate a, a mindset where Iwasn't looking at other people
and saying, oh, I guess I shouldbe doing that.
So I always felt like I wasdoing the right thing for me at
(07:24):
that time.
Did I feel like I was cool?
No, definitely not.
do I feel like I'm cool now?
No, absolutely not.
Gaby (07:32):
You are
Rehana (07:32):
I feel like I'm, I feel like I'm me.
Um, and that's, that's cool.
I think
Gaby (07:38):
that is, yeah, that's the coolest part about you is that
you've always just been you andlike, and completely and totally
out loud.
And I think that's what Iadmired the most about you is
that you are the first personwho I connected with and saw in
my life, especially in highschool who was like me out a
(08:02):
person of color who wascross-cultural, bi-racial and a
daughter of an immigrant.
Like those are all complexintersectionalities and not that
w ere, that w e're the same.
Our families are from verydifferent places in the world.
Rehana (08:17):
Right.
Gaby (08:18):
But you are somebody who I was like, oh look, like I'm not
alone in this.
Rehana (08:23):
Yeah, totally.
I felt that same way about youtoo.
And I think that, you know, youare also someone who understood
that.
Um, and I still feel this waynow.
There are certain parts of youthat are core and uh, you know,
help you determine how to beauthentic across different
(08:43):
spaces, but sometimes you do alittle bit of code switching.
You kind of frame who you aredifferently in different
contexts.
And, um, it took a long time, meto be comfortable doing that and
in a way that didn't feel, um,inauthentic.
Gaby (09:01):
Yeah.
Rehana (09:03):
Um, but that was, that was something that I think you
and I really connected about toobecause, uh, you know, we were
kind of a different version ofourselves with our families at
some points.
And sometimes it would be, Ifound it difficult to kind of
talk to friends who weren't inthose sort of different
situations like we were, um, andhave them understand that.
(09:27):
Right.
So, you know, a lot of my, a lotof my, um, American friends who
didn't have immigrant familieswere very open with their
parents about the fact that theydrank alcohol or did drugs or
something like that.
And they didn't understand that,no, not only can you not imply
(09:50):
that I am doing those things,which in high school I was not
really that much.
But, um, but also I don't wantyou implying that you do because
my parents won't let me see youanymore.
Gaby (10:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rehana (10:02):
Um, and I think that that, you know, carried through,
I've seen that carry through inmy life of just like some, some
people that haven't had to dothat dance constantly throughout
their whole lives.
Uh, don't really understand howyou can still be you and do
that.
Gaby (10:20):
Yeah.
I think being mixed in any way,like mixed race, cross cultural,
coming from two differentidentities that smashed together
that intersectionality and thenhaving multiple layers who at
right, like sexuality added toit and then nationality added to
it sense of like your, yourspirituality even, right?
(10:44):
Like these are all elementsthat, I don't know if this was
true for you, but for me it mademe so much more cognizant at a
young age about what theseelements of identity mean and
their consequences, you know,like how the world sees
different people for who theyare based on the box that they
(11:05):
placed them in.
Rehana (11:07):
Yeah, totally.
I mean, um, I feel like I sawthat a lot.
I witnessed it a lot watching mydad, um, you know, be, uh, go
through experiences that I feltlike my friend's parents weren't
going through and littlecomments that people would make
(11:27):
to me of, um, you know, Iremember as late as high school,
a close friend asking me if mydad spoken clicks.
Gaby (11:35):
What?
Rehana (11:35):
Yeah.
Gaby (11:36):
Did they know where your dad was from?
Rehana (11:38):
Oh, they'd met him a bunch of times, knew he was from
Ethiopia.
Um, like
Jenelle (11:43):
was this a friend that knew you or just somebody random
Rehana (11:45):
close friend.
Close friend.
Jenelle (11:47):
Interesting.
Rehana (11:48):
Um, and uh, but I don't think that I really felt that
about myself until college.
Um, where I went to apredominantly white Catholic
university.
Um, and suddenly people are,were looking at me and uh, I
(12:12):
remember for the first timefeeling like, oh, I'm black.
You know, where previously I hadfelt like I'm African and I'm
mixed race and I'm Ethiopian.
Um, but I hadn't felt like blackAmerican until college when
people were looking at me andputting me in in a box.
And No, I mean, I think thatthat was kind of the first time
(12:35):
where I was, where I kind of hadto grapple with the fact that
you don't get to determine youridentity and your descriptors
completely in a bubble that'salso shaped by society in the
way that society sees you.
And that impacts you everysingle day.
Whether you select certainidentifiers or people place them
on, you can have a real impacton your life.
(12:58):
Um, so I think that college wasa big time when I was reflecting
on my identity and how I woulddescribe that to people.
Um, and it certainly evolved alot from when I was in high
school.
Gaby (13:12):
Yeah.
I think I remember having areally deep conversation with
you when, you know, at the endof every single delegation that
we would lead those what tendedto be the most intense
conversations that we'd have.
And it was during one of theselast sessions that I remember
you and I stayed up one nighttalking really late into the
(13:32):
night about what race privilege,power meant and how it played a
role in our lives specifically.
And I think it was at that pointthat both of us started to
identify much more outwardlywith the LGBTQ community.
Rehana (13:52):
Yeah.
Gaby (13:53):
Like at what point did you feel like you, you officially
like quote unquote, likeidentified yourself as part of
the community?
Rehana (14:01):
So I, um, I like to say that I was never actually in the
closet to myself.
You know, they say like thecoming out cycle is kind of
first you come out to yourself,then you come out to friends and
family and then you come out tothe world.
Gaby (14:15):
Yeah.
Rehana (14:16):
Um, I kinda did that maybe in a weird order.
I feel like I, um, had my firstexperience liking a girl and
kissing a girl all in one nightand then, um, was confronted
with, from an external factor,what do you identify as all in
(14:36):
the same night?
And just immediately said, I'mbisexual.
And never felt that way.
Never thought about that before.
It just felt like a verynatural, organic process for me.
But I didn't really, I was quoteunquote, out all of high school.
Um, you know, uh, not to myfamily but at school certainly.
(15:00):
But I didn't go to GSA meetings.
I didn't, um, you know, I neverwent to like a pride event or
anything like that.
To your point, I didn't reallyfeel, I felt sort of like, oh,
this is just a thing about me,but it doesn't mean that I need
to go be in a big c community.
(15:20):
Right.
Um, I think it wasn't until Iwent to college and you know,
everyone's trying to find theirpeople, um, and being confronted
with, you know, not being ableto do certain things because I
was LGBTQ or facing certainsituations because I was queer
(15:43):
that I really found myselfwanting that community and
belonging to that community.
Um, I think also just thesometimes lack of representation
in our community ofintersectionality really fueled
me to want to be part of itmore.
Right, so when I got on campus,our LGBTQ student organization
(16:08):
was run by White, uh, cis gaymen and that was the reputation
of the group.
It was a place for white CISpeople, predominantly men to
find community.
But for the rest of us therewasn't really a spot for that.
Um, and that really motivated meto join it, to do events for it
(16:32):
and eventually to take it over,um, and lead it in order to show
new people coming in, you can,you can be in this community too
.
There's a space for us too.
Jenelle (16:42):
So I feel like in a, in a different way, sort of
separating it from um, theintersectionality of your race,
your religion, and then yourgender identity or not your
gender identity but yoursexuality.
I remember even in high school,uh, you did a talk and like a
presentation and stuff on, um,being Muslim and going through
(17:07):
Ramadan if I'm not mistaken.
Rehana (17:09):
Yeah.
Jenelle (17:10):
Were you, you had to explain like fasting to
everybody and what that alwayswas.
Like in my eyes, you, you'vealways been somebody who again
going back to I know who I amand sort of seeing opportunities
to educate people, right?
Like I think, I think I'vealways seen you as somebody who
identifies there's a gap,there's a knowledge gap, there
(17:31):
is a, just sort of a, anexperience gap and wanting to
step in and, and be that type ofperson.
How do you think that that'sbeen there for you, your, your
whole life?
Or was there a point where thatreally was instilled in you?
Rehana (17:46):
Well, I think I um, was confronted my otherness very
early in life.
Gaby (17:51):
Yeah.
Rehana (17:52):
Um, I mean I have memories of being three or four,
like the only memories I havefrom that time of my life were,
um, of feeling really differentand no one being able to
pronounce my name.
Um, I would sometimes go byHannah instead.
Gaby (18:09):
What?
Rehana (18:09):
Um, Yep.
Uh, for, I remember until I wasabout six or seven, um, telling
my parents that as soon as I was18, I was going to change my
name, um, to Iman, my middlename because it was easier to
pronounce.
And I would sometimes tellpeople to call me Iman, um,
(18:31):
instead of Rehana because theywould just butcher it.
Um, and then I sort of, uh, Iwould say like midway through
elementary school, um, kind ofwas like, yeah, I'm different.
I don't see anyone else like mehere.
Uh, but you know what, that canbe helpful.
And, um, I feel like later inlife, you know, Harvey Milk, uh,
(18:57):
really put it well when he kindof told his group that if you're
not out, you need to come outbecause, um, which was very
controversial to say.
And for the record, I don'tbelieve that everyone who is
LGBTQ needs to come out of thecloset.
It's very personal decision.
(19:18):
But the part that reallyresonated with me was the
reasoning behind it of the waythat we're going to make gains
is if people realize, oh, I havea gay neighbor, I have a gay,
um, you know person at thegrocery store that works at the
grocery store that I go to.
I have like all these people inmy network that I didn't know
(19:41):
about.
Um, that
Gaby (19:44):
So normalizing it
Rehana (19:44):
Right.
So I feel like that kind of putinto words what I've felt a lot
of my life, which is yeah, I'mdifferent than the people around
me and how do I make sure thatthey get to know me and they get
to know about my differentnessin a way that makes them, moving
(20:04):
forward in their lives, be moreopen to people like me in the
future.
Um, so like my college roommatewho's one of my closest friends,
um, you know, hadn't had aMuslim friend before.
Uh, several people on myfreshman floor hadn't ever had a
Muslim friend.
So I did fast-a-thon my freshmanyear, which was a thing that we
(20:27):
did at my school where we wouldinvite non Muslims to fast with
us for a day.
Um, and that was a really coolexperience cause they were
coming to me all day and saying,I'm so thirsty.
How do you do this all whatthen?
Jenelle (20:41):
Yeah.
Rehana (20:43):
Um, you know, just what are opportunities to kind of
bring people in, bring peopleinto the conversation.
Um, rather than just saying, oh,you don't already know about
this while then I'm not going totalk to you.
Gaby (20:55):
Yeah.
I, I'm wondering actually howyou feel about when people say
it's not my job to educate you,right.
Because I personally, and thisis a personal decision, I think
everybody might feel differentlyabout it.
I, I think because I feel like Irepresent so many things that I
(21:17):
want people to understand memore.
I want people to be educated andinformed in the way to engage
with me and my community, atleast my preference is for that.
And I feel very comfortabledoing that.
But I also, um, recognize thatit's not any person of colors or
(21:38):
individual who identifies in anyspace.
It's not their job to do it.
Right.
And I think that's a complicatedthing to explain to someone who
maybe isn't from any minoritygroup because like, I think a
lot of people are like, well, Ijust want to understand.
I'm trying to understand so thatI can be an ally.
(22:00):
Right.
Like, how do you feel abouteducating folks outside of the
space?
Rehana (22:05):
Yeah, it's a great question.
Uh, and I think that, um, itdepends on what they're asking
to be educated about.
Um, but also just up front, wehave Google now you can go ahead
and get a baseline knowledge.
Right?
And I feel like, um, there's acertain amount of learning that
(22:26):
you can't, you can't read overthe Internet.
Right?
You can't, uh, form a genuineconnection with someone, um, by
reading an article that theywrote.
That's not a two way experience.
So I feel like there's a needfor both.
Um, but I totally agree withyou.
It's not someone'sresponsibility.
And if you come to me with aquestion that, you know, you
(22:49):
could have googled in fiveseconds.
Jenelle (22:51):
Hmm.
Rehana (22:52):
I might be a little annoyed.
Right.
Um, but it also depends on thecontext, like where we are
having that conversation.
Who you are.
Right.
So when we were in El Salvadordoing those, um, trips, I had
some really great conversationswith, um, some of the women that
were cooking for us, um, aboutwhat a Muslim was and what we
(23:14):
believed.
Right.
Their, their questions were, but, um, you still believe in Jesus
Christ, right?
You still, do you believe inGod?
Um, things like that.
I'm good with those questions.
Right.
Cause they don't, they couldn'tGoogle it.
Um, and I was probably, if notthe only, one of the only
(23:36):
Muslims they were ever gonnameet in their life.
Um, but that also speaks to likemy comfort on the topic.
Right?
Yeah.
Um, but I've seen, you know, andexperienced a lot of, I don't
want to say bigotry.
Well I'll say bigotry maskingitself as well meaning
(23:58):
questions, you know, um, and asa bisexual, this is something I
get a lot from other folks inthe LGBTQ community, right?
Is they'll say, um, oh, you'rebisexual.
So that means, does that meanyou always need to be dating a
man and a woman at the sametime?
Or does that mean that youwouldn't date a trans person or
(24:21):
that you hate trans people?
And those, I kind of feel likethose are not open ended
questions that start a dialogue.
Those are, um, you kind ofcoming at me with the negative
things that you've heard andtrying to say disprove this
position.
Right?
So
Jenelle (24:41):
I think it's also, it's a way of, um, categorizing you
as, as a thing or an experiment,right?
Like those types of questions tome, cause I, I've gotten very
similar ones, um, being alesbian and I always feel like
they're, they make me feel likean object rather than a human
(25:01):
being that's complex.
Rehana (25:03):
Right?
And like you're speaking forthat whole group of people,
right?
So,
Gaby (25:08):
yeah, that's dangerous.
Rehana (25:09):
I can't speak to other people's attraction.
I can speak to my own.
So why don't you ask me an openended question about why I, uh,
chose to identify in that way orwhy I describe myself with that
label and what that means to me.
Um, rather than repeating somekind of bigoted things that
(25:29):
you've heard in the past.
So, but to kind of loop back andanswer your question, I don't
think it's anyone's job to be,uh, you know, the teacher,
right?
Um, because then you also getinto this like quote unquote
(25:51):
model minority issue where youfeel like, uh, and I've
certainly felt this in the past.
You know, I have to be the, uh,smartest person in the room to
show people that black peopleare smart or to show people that
Muslims are smart or I have tobe really nice to prove that
Muslims aren't angry terrorists.
(26:14):
Right?
Gaby (26:14):
Yeah.
Rehana (26:15):
Um, and, uh, that can be really damaging and hard to deal
with.
I think
Gaby (26:24):
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Jenelle (27:01):
What I reflect back from what you said is it's not
anybody's job to educateanybody, right?
Like some of this we can do withGoogle, depends on the person
and things like that, but interms of getting people to, to
get on our side, right?
To create more allies, do we putpeople into these sort of boxes
(27:22):
and say like you have to fitinto this box in order to be
making progress or to be able tosay or do certain things or do
we sort of throw people rope andpull them along with us?
Rehana (27:33):
I love this question and I love talking about this.
I think that I like to meetpeople where they're at and when
I get frustrated is when peopletell me they're at a different
place than they are.
If that makes sense.
Gaby (27:48):
Can you give an example?
Rehana (27:49):
Yeah.
So if someone says, I'm a reallygreat ally, I'm a big ally.
That's how I define that, that'slike how they define themselves,
but they are not doing some ofthe actions that you know, you
feel are critical for an ally.
So for example, if they say I'ma big ally to the LGBTQ
(28:10):
community, but they are not, um,you know, calling their
representatives and advocatingfor the Equality Act, calling
their senators and advocatingfor the equality act.
Um, if they are not, uh, callingpeople by the correct pronouns
that they would like to becalled, if they are not doing
(28:31):
some of these macro level andmicro level things, if they're
not examining their privilege,if they're not, helping to build
a more accepting communities.
Um, then they're not likethey're not a, um, advanced
(28:51):
ally.
Right?
Jenelle (28:53):
Right, right.
Yeah.
No.
And that, that's an interestingway to put it, right.
Cause I sort of disconnected itbetween somebody saying, Hey,
I'm an ally.
Happy Pride when they're notactually acting that way versus
maybe people who aren't sayingthat but are doing certain
things.
Right.
And if you are self identifyingas an ally, well that has a lot
(29:13):
of weight to it and it means youneed to be doing certain things
in order to live in that world.
And in order to have that label.
Rehana (29:20):
Absolutely.
And to me allyship is notpassive.
It is active.
It requires commitment andaction constantly.
Um, it requires you to thinkcritically about situations in
your everyday life, uh,actively.
It requires you to activelyexamine your privilege, uh, in
(29:42):
different contexts.
And, um, and you can, anyone canwish me a happy pride.
I will take that from anybody.
But, uh, if you tell me that youare an ally, that carries more
weight to it.
And I feel like also it dependson, well, I, I won't say,
(30:04):
actually, I take it back.
I don't mean I will accept happypride from anyone because, uh,
Trump's tweets about pride, uh,really set me off.
So I will not take happy pridefrom anyone.
Um,
Gaby (30:17):
if you're deliberately undermining my back to be who I
am,
Rehana (30:21):
Right.
I will take a happy pride fromanyone who's not actively
harming or oppressing me and,uh, contributing to or
supporting folks who areactively harming her oppressing
me.
But I do feel like, you know,along with kind of how do we
cultivate an environment wherepeople can learn authentically
(30:44):
and be vulnerable, um, no matterwhat stage they're at, that's a
question that I want to keepthinking about and I want to
keep trying to do is how do Imeet people where they're at so
that they can be vulnerable withme about what they don't know
about what they don'tunderstand.
And I feel like that buildsstronger, more committed allies
(31:05):
later because, um, because theywill reflect on that moment and
say, Rehana whoever that personwas generous with me and gave me
the space to mess up, gave methe space to say something
stupid by accident and apologizeand accepted my apology, didn't
just write me off.
(31:25):
So that's what I try to do andtry to be committed to.
But sometimes it's hard, youknow, when someone, when someone
says something that you feel isignorant or bigoted and you want
to react with, just get out ofmy face, I don't want to talk to
you anymore.
It's hard to maintain that, um,that space for them to do that
(31:49):
in.
And um, sometimes you can't,when it becomes unsafe for you,
sometimes you can't.
Gaby (31:56):
Can we dig in on that specifically in terms of when
someone does the flip side ofbeing an ally and very much is
deliberately pushing you awayfor who you are.
I know you have some verytangible examples of this in
your life and so do I.
Um, you know, like we weretalking about family dynamics
(32:18):
earlier and the challenges ofbeing rejected by family because
of who we love.
Rehana (32:26):
Yeah, totally.
Definitely have vivid examplesof that.
I feel like going along withmeeting people where they are,
you have to listen to people andwhen they tell you what their
limits are or who they are,believe them.
Right.
Hear them.
So when, you know, members of myfamily told me, this is not
(32:49):
something I can accept.
I don't want to see you anymore.
I don't want to talk to youanymore.
Um, I heard them and I said,okay, you just told me that I'm
going to keep living my life andbe who I am.
Um, but I'm gonna I, I hear yousetting that boundary, right.
And I hear you telling me whoyou are and what you can and
(33:11):
can't deal with.
And that's hard.
That's definitely hard.
It's been hard for me and isespecially still a very common
thing in our community, not justin the LGBTQ community, but in
these LGBTQ communities of coloris not an uncommon experience at
all, unfortunately.
Gaby (33:33):
Yeah.
Something that's, that reallyresonated with me, um, is your
experience of, um, having afamily member, you know,
basically set that boundary andsay, I'm not gonna recognize
that piece of you, that part ofyou.
Um, and, and then the humanmessiness of the community
(33:56):
around us and their reaction tothat.
Because as a family unit, wegrow up in a community.
All of us grew up in a similarcommunity and neighborhood.
And so our neighborhood, I wouldsay I would argue is pretty
tight knit.
Like we said, our neighbors,your neighbors in particular
were all best friends living onthe same block.
(34:19):
And so that was a very closeknit space.
Rehana (34:23):
Yeah.
Absoluely.
Gaby (34:23):
So when your family engaged with you and in a way
that rejected part of youridentity, how did the community
react?
How did people respond and werethey allies to you?
Rehana (34:38):
So, I think that that's a, it was a really hard
situation for them to be in.
You know, this is, this is metrying to be a, as empathetic as
possible because both of us aremembers of that community,
right?
So taking sides is always a hardthing to do.
And I think that also being anally is not something that you
(34:58):
either are doing right or doingwrong.
There's sort of different layersto it, right?
You could be a great ally to acommunity on a macro level and
that might look very differentwhen you are trying to be an
ally to an individual person.
And what I like to do and what Ilike to tell people is you can
(35:21):
just ask, right?
I love to be asked, hey, how canI support you right now in this
situation?
What can I do to feel, to makeyou feel more welcome in this
context?
What can I do to show you that Isupport you?
And you know, one of the thingsthat hurt when, uh, everything
sort of went down with my familyis, um, some members of my
(35:44):
community didn't ask thatquestion and therefore didn't
know what would be helpful to meand what would make me feel safe
and valued.
So I didn't, I did not feelwelcomed anymore in the
community that I had grown up inand had defined a lot of my self
(36:05):
identity and a lot of my, um,childhood years.
So when you, I feel likesometimes when you assume how
you can be a good ally tosomeone on an individual level,
when they're going throughsomething difficult, uh, the
odds are not in your favor ofwhether you're going to exactly
hit the mark of what they want.
Right.
(36:25):
That's, that's just a reallyhard thing to, to know
intuitively, especially ifyou're not, uh, especially if
you've never dealt with the samesituation before and, um, are
not familiar with the certainmix of emotions that they might
be going through.
And so, um, one of the things,uh, after that all happened was
(36:46):
we were a very, as you said,tight knit community and
neighborhood and had a lot ofneighborhood events and we were
both still being invited andthat did not make me feel like I
was actually invited because Iwas not going to attend an event
that he was at.
Um, that didn't feel safe for me
Jenelle (37:06):
Right, and in some way they should have thought of that
or realize that
Rehana (37:09):
Maybe, I mean, again, I kind of, for my own mental
health, I like to take a stepback from"should" and kind of
take away the responsibility ofsomeone else, um, intuitively
knowing that cause they hadnever been in that situation
before.
And even if they had, we're allindividual people and so I can
(37:33):
definitely see a context wherethat might not have bothered
someone so much.
But for me, it made me feel likewe were on equal footing.
Like it was a situation where,Oh, you had this fight and you
both said things you didn't meanand so you're both still invited
to things and you're both stillin the community.
(37:56):
Um, where that was not, that wasnot the feeling that I had.
But what I ended up doing was Iended up having some really
difficult conversations with,with, you know, close friends
and members of the community andtelling them, okay, maybe you
didn't ask how I wanted to besupported, but now I'm telling
you this is what would make mefeel comfortable and supported
(38:17):
and uh, had a lot of successwith that.
And they were very open to that.
But something that was reallycritical to me through this time
was if I didn't have thatcommunity that I had grown up
with, being able to seek supportand get support from my chosen
family, my support system, andhaving that support system was
(38:39):
really, really critical.
And I think that's why Idefinitely don't believe that
everyone always needs to comeout because you, it takes a
while to build that supportsystem and without it, that's a
really difficult process.
You know, I was at the time whenthis all happened, I was in a
(39:01):
very, you know, supportive,committed relationship with my
now wife and had I not had thatsupport system, um, it would
have been a very differentstory.
Gaby (39:11):
Yeah.
Jenelle (39:12):
So I think, um, that, that, that story of feeling like
you, the people in the communitythat you wanted to be an ally to
you and they weren't, and beingable to say like, I'm going to
come at this from a place of a,I like how you said like, not
that they should have, right.
(39:33):
Like understanding that maybethey haven't been in that
situation before, I think is soimportant.
Right.
It, and just from myperspective, right?
Like that's part of the way thatI want to live my life is, is to
be able to look at people andsay, like, you, you don't have
enough knowledge.
You don't have enoughinformation.
And so I'm going to give you thebenefit of the doubt in this
situation, which, and, andthinking that people in
(39:55):
believing that people can learnand they can change and they can
grow.
Um, it makes me think of the,the sort of the Kevin Hart
situation where, uh, he wasgoing to host the Emmys or the
Grammy's or
Rehana (40:05):
Oscars.
Jenelle (40:06):
Oscars.
Right.
And a lot of people came out andwere sort of saying things that
he had said a long time ago, um,was a reason that he should not
be hosting the Oscars.
Right.
He said some, uh, maybehomophobic things that some
point in his acts, but sincethen he had apologized.
He had changed his approach.
(40:27):
Right.
He, he had stopped saying thosethings.
He changed his views, or atleast hopefully he had.
Um, but that still, they weresaying like, even though you had
done it once, it means thatthat's who you are.
And so I, I appreciate the, themindset from somebody inside the
community.
Right.
And somebody who wants allies aswell to look at other people and
(40:48):
say, you're not perfect.
Maybe you haven't experiencedthis.
And so I'm going to give you thebenefit of the doubt.
And if you don't take me, once Ido that, then that's a different
story.
But at least I'm going to takethat first step.
Rehana (41:01):
Yeah.
And sometimes I listen to theSavage Lovecast.
Um, and
Jenelle (41:06):
What's that?
Rehana (41:08):
Dan Savage's podcast.
Jenelle (41:09):
Oh, okay.
Rehana (41:10):
Dan Savage, uh, spoke about this in the context of the
2016 election about HillaryClinton and members of the LGBTQ
community questioning whethershe really supported the
community because of policiesthat she had supported in the
past.
And the point that he made thatreally resonated with me was,
(41:33):
um, if we don't when, when weconvince people right when we
have won them over and they aresupportive of us, if we don't
say, okay, great, you're herenow.
You apologized for the past, nowyou're with us.
Um, how do we build allies if wedon't then say thank you and uh,
(41:57):
and not wipe the slate clean,not forget about the past, but
allow them to atone for that andum, and welcome them and allow
them to then, um, stand with us.
Uh, how are we gonna we, wecan't succeed without allies.
We can't advance our rightswithout allies.
Gaby (42:17):
Yeah.
This is something that I am verypassionate about, um, in terms
of policing, right?
Communities about who can andcannot be an ally.
And once you're making an effortto be an ally, I often
experience or witness folksshaming individuals who don't
(42:43):
use the exact proper languagethat is maybe quote unquote
politically correct today.
Um, but somebody is tryingthey're, they're learning,
they're actively trying toparticipate and becoming someone
who can advocate for our group.
(43:04):
I'm very passionate aboutensuring that that person is
given more tools to be able tocontinue their journey towards
being a good ally and being agood advocate rather than
shaming that person and saying,how dare you use that word?
I am incredibly insulted.
You are now shamed and you'rerejected from being a part of
(43:25):
this.
Rehana (43:26):
Yeah.
So I think that for me, um,shaming is not a, a tool that I
use a lot in my toolbox, but Ithink it's, it belongs in the
toolbox and it is valuable incertain contexts.
I think that, um, I think it,you know, I, I hate for my
answer to keep being context iseverything, but I really do
(43:48):
believe that.
And where someone, especiallydepending on what they're asking
us for, right, if you're askingme to vote for you and your
policies are not consistent withwhat you are claiming to
support, you know, if you sayyou're supporting women but you
are not supporting a pro choicelegislation, right.
(44:11):
I'm, I'm all for shaming thosepoliticians.
I am all for, um, you sayingyou're not going to get my vote
if you claim that you aresupporting LGBTQ people, but you
are not supporting the EqualityAct.
Um, or you are saying, okay,great, I'm good with gay people,
but I'm still, I'm still not forTrans people's rights.
(44:34):
Right.
Um, you know, maybe Trump has,uh, has a point.
I, I'm all for shaming them.
Um, so I think that shamingpeople has a definite role in
our continued fight for equalityand for, um, advancement of our
(44:54):
rights.
I think though that, uh, it'shard in a personal context.
It's hard in, in smaller groups.
When that comes up.
Um, but I think also that partof being an ally and part of,
um, uh, claiming to be an allyis recognizing that you, um, you
(45:19):
might get some things wrong andthat there are consequences with
that.
So I think that if someone, youknow, uses incorrect terminology
and then offends someone andthey respond in that way, um,
and that person claiming to bean ally says, oh, well, forget
it.
I'm out.
This was not, you, you didn'tlet me, you didn't, uh, um,
(45:43):
thank me just for being here.
That's still you not fullyrecognizing your privilege,
right.
Um, and not being the actualally that you are claiming to
be.
So sometimes you're gonna getthings wrong.
We all get things wrong and youhave to be comfortable being
called out by that.
Jenelle (46:01):
Yeah.
So what I was thinking on is,vulnerability is such a huge
part of being an ally, right?
Because in my eyes, there's twosides of it.
One is, vulnerability is thewillingness to try and maybe say
the wrong words, maybe do thewrong thing.
(46:22):
Right.
Um, but knowing that, feelingthat fear and working through
it, right, and, and that, thattakes a lot of vulnerability to
do, Do that.
The second half of that isexactly what you said at the
end, right?
Knowing that sometimes you'regoing to mess up and you're
gonna get called out for it.
Right?
So the second part ofvulnerability in being an ally
is being able to say, I'm sorryand recognizing, and being able
(46:44):
to say, I fucked up and I'msorry.
And being willing to say, teachme what I'm supposed to do.
Right.
And for us, talking about, sortof bringing this full circle in
a sense of saying it's noteverybody's responsibility to
educate, right.
I totally understand being in apoint, whether it's forever in
(47:05):
your life or, or in periods ofyour life where you're just
like, I don't want to educateyou.
Like, I'm sorry, I'm done.
Why doesn't everybody justunderstand this?
Why do I have to be the one todo this?
Right?
And I think for somebody comingfrom an outside wanting to be an
ally to somebody, understandingthat we're going to get to a
point where we're like, I justhad the same conversation for
(47:27):
five days in a row for whateverreason or this has just been a
part of my life to have toeducate people so much, I don't
want to educate you and you'regoing to get called out and
maybe not taught in that moment.
Right.
And I think knowing that, don'ttake that personally, right.
Try at least try not to takethat personally and be able to
(47:47):
say, let me self-reflect.
Right.
This is, this is another reasonwhy I think therapy is so
important.
Right?
Why everybody should havetherapy in order to not only
better themselves but also tohelp better other people is one
as somebody who needs an ally, Idon't, I want that person to
(48:08):
understand that I'm a humanbeing in some days I'm not going
to be myself, best self or somedays I just don't want to,
right?
And they need to be able to workthrough that.
Um, but also for your own selfin somebody, me personally
wanting to be an ally to otherpeople that are not in my
identity is I need to be able tohave moments where I get called
(48:29):
out and I can then reflect onthat and be able to say, okay, I
understand where this is comingfrom.
This isn't about me, being ableto move forward in that.
That's such a huge part of whatthat is.
Rehana (48:40):
Yeah.
And if you come into a space andyou say, if I do something
wrong, I'm not willing to sufferany consequences or I don't feel
like I should have to suffer anyconsequences, then you're
carrying your privilege intothat space and you're not, you
know, really recognizing thatsometimes when, sometimes you're
going to get called out and youhave to be okay with, um, you
(49:02):
know, uh, facing thoseconsequences.
Like you might say somethingthat offends someone and then
the consequences, you know whatyou have, we understand you're
learning, but you've made thisspace unsafe for someone else or
feel unsafe for someone else.
And so you're not gonna be inthis space for a little while,
right?
You're not ready to be in thisspace.
(49:22):
Sometimes that's a consequence.
And, um, you know, I think thatif we want to be good allies, we
have to be willing to, uh, todeal with those consequences.
Gaby (49:33):
This has been an amazing chat.
I did want to end on a questionthat Jenelle recommended that I
love, which is what do you gotgoing on in your life that you
want to share with ourlisteners?
Rehana (49:44):
Great question.
Um, so as I mentioned at thetop, I'm co-chair of the board
of directors of the DC Centerfor the LGBT community and, uh,
it's an fantastic organization.
You know, I think sometimes whenpeople think about, um,
supporting LGBTQ rights or theLGBTQ community, these big name
(50:06):
organizations come to mind likeHRC and HRC is fantastic.
I'm a monthly donor to HRC aswell.
But what I would really stressis, you know, allyship and
supporting different communities, uh, comes at, in different
contexts and in the localcontext, there's a lot of great
local LGBT that are doingfantastic work in the DC metro
(50:31):
area.
Um, so if you all, if listenersout there, um, please check us
out at thedccenter.org.
On social media@thedccenter, and, uh, if you have the financial
means to donate, please do.
Uh, they do incredible work inthe community.
They have lockers for LGBTQhomeless youth.
(50:54):
They run support groups anddiscussion groups, uh, for
different parts of thecommunity.
Um, they have, uh, a lot ofprogramming for LGBTQ older
adults and for LGBTQ asylumseekers from other countries.
So as you think about who you,uh, donate to to support the
community, I would encourage youto think about the DC center and
(51:18):
if you want to follow me onsocial media, which would be
awesome.
I am on Twitter at@rehanamohammed and I'm on
Instagram@rehanaimohammed.
So please look me up and let'sconnect.
Gaby (51:31):
Thank you so much for being with me here with us and,
and sharing a little bit of, uh,your story.
Rehana (51:35):
Thank you for having me.
This was fantastic.
And I love how you guys aresaying what is missing and just
creating it, right?
This is definitely somethingthat, um, I've been wanting to
listen to and think about andhear other people think about
for a long time and I just soappreciate that you guys said,
well, we're gonna make it.
(51:55):
We're just gonna create it.
We're gonna fill that, fill thatgap.
So I think that's awesome.
Jenelle (52:00):
That's all Gaby.
Rehana (52:01):
Takes a lot of, takes a lot of bravery.
Gaby (52:02):
I'm excited.
Jenelle (52:04):
Yeah.
Gaby (52:04):
Brave, Not Perfect
Jenelle (52:04):
Brave, not perfect indeed.
Gaby (52:07):
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Join in on the conversation.
We'd love to hear from all ofyou.
Visit our websitethewaywelead.com and share a
voice memo on our contact uspage.
We want to hear your examples ofan experience where someone was
not a good ally to you.
How did that play out?
Were you able to give thatperson to feedback?
If not, how, if at all, wouldyou want to resolve it.
(52:30):
While you're on our website,subscribe to our newsletter for
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(52:52):
This episode was produced by me,Gaby Acosta, and co- hosted by
my kick ass wife Jenelle Acosta.
Music was written and producedby the talented Emily Henry.
A special shout out goes out toall of our seed fund campaign
donors.
We really could not have donethis without you.
Here's the Jenelle singing thisweek's list of donors.
Jenelle (53:15):
[singing] Carly Dell, Cathrine Nelson, Christy
Stanford, Cole Ingram, CoreyHoyt, Courtney Lausch.
Gaby (53:26):
Hashtag
Jenelle (53:26):
30 for 30, baby.
Yeah![Dog Barks] Every time.
To me, allyship is not passive.
It is active.
It requires commitment andaction constantly.
It requires you to thinkcritically about situations in
your everyday life.
Gaby (00:17):
Hola Hola, it's me Gaby Acosta
Jenelle (00:20):
And me, Jenelle Acosta.
We're high school sweethearts ona journey to be better allies.
Gaby (00:26):
You're listening to The Way We Lead, were we talk about
inclusive leadership allyshipand advocacy with folks across
identities, industries andexperiences.
Jenelle (00:34):
If you're new here, welcome! You can follow us on
Facebook, Instagram and Twitterusing the handle@thewaywelead.
Gaby (00:43):
We're glad you're here! Let's jump in.
Rehana (00:47):
Hi, I'm Rehana Mohammed and I'm a nonprofit management
professional in DC and Co- chairof the board of directors at the
DC Center for the LGBTcommunity.
Gaby (00:57):
Yeah, you are.
Jenelle (00:59):
Get it!
Gaby (00:59):
You're also one of our best friends in the whole world
and we've known you since wewere like eddy bitty, like
pretty....
Rehana (01:09):
Five, four?
Gaby (01:10):
No, because I moved to the U.S.
when I was eight.
We were in the Bilingual edprogram together.
Rehana (01:15):
Yes,
Gaby (01:15):
at Rolling Terrace elementary school
Rehana (01:17):
RT
Gaby (01:18):
RT! And Jenelle
Jenelle (01:22):
was also there, but I was not cool enough to be in
the, in the immersion program.
I was in special Ed my wholeeducation.
Gaby (01:27):
Did y'all know each other?
Jenelle (01:29):
You know, I was just thinking about that
Rehana (01:31):
on the bus, little bit
Jenelle (01:33):
Which bus?
Oh, because we did get picked upat the corner, didn't we?
Gaby (01:37):
Ya'll were neighbors
Rehana (01:38):
and I officiated your wedding.
Gaby (01:40):
You did.
We became, I think real buds inlike high school.
Rehana (01:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gaby (01:47):
We didn't go to middle school together.
Rehana (01:48):
We went to different middle schools
Gaby (01:50):
and then in high school we were both in the communication
arts program.
Rehana (01:54):
Yup.
(01:55):
And Jenelle was part of our, our crew because she was my
lady.
Rehana (01:59):
Yeah.
Main lady
Gaby (02:02):
My main squeeze.
Jenelle (02:04):
You can call me that more often.
That's fine.
Gaby (02:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You've, you've been my lady fora long time.
Jenelle (02:10):
This is true
Gaby (02:11):
I had this very, uh, vivid memory today of being at a
Halloween party the year afterJenelle and I started dating and
I had just come out and I don'tknow, I must have had a lot of
emotions being a teenager, but Ijust remember embracing you and
squeezing you so hard and sayingsomething to the effect of like,
(02:33):
you're the only one who gets me.
Rehana (02:36):
Oh my God.
That's beautiful.
Gaby (02:39):
[laughter]
(02:39):
That is just a beautiful memory.
I wish, I wish I could say Iremember that vividly too.
I have a really bad memory.
Gaby (02:45):
and I think it was pretty random for you.
You were probably like, what areyou talking about?
Rehana (02:51):
You know what though?
I'm positive.
I, I felt the same.
Cause I feel the same now
Gaby (02:55):
but I think we had a lot of parallels in our life.
Rehana (03:00):
Yeah, totally.
And then we also reconnectedafter Undergrad and um, we kind
of were chilling in theaqueerium.
Gaby (03:10):
Yeah
Rehana (03:10):
Remember that magical summer i n the aqueerium.
That's what they dubbed theirhouse.
Gaby (03:12):
We had dubbed our house the aqueerium because we just
started collecting a lot of likebeautiful queer people.
Jenelle (03:21):
Well, we moved back.
Rehana (03:21):
It was amazing
Jenelle (03:22):
We moved back from college and it was me and you,
and then we had two of our otherfriends who were lesbian and
dating and then a lot of you,you came over a lot.
Rehana (03:32):
Yup.
Jenelle (03:33):
Um, so adding more queer people to it.
Gaby (03:35):
And then that was the year that, um, I think you and I had
just, um, co-facilitated, well,we weren't in the same
community, but we'd just done adelegation down to El Salvador,
which is where I'm from.
And we had a lot of delegateswho were also, you know, I would
say on the queer spectrum.
Rehana (03:57):
Yes.
Gaby (03:58):
And after this delegation, we all bonded really closely and
, and we just ended up spendinga lot of time at our house, like
hanging out, like shooting theshit and enjoying each other's
company in a space that we justfelt good in
Rehana (04:13):
very good times.
Gaby (04:14):
Yeah.
Rehana (04:14):
Very good times in the aqueerium.
Gaby (04:16):
It was awesome.
Jenelle (04:17):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, around the blockwas, what is it?
So if we walk from my house andturned around the corner, then
it was your house and then in arow were three of our other
friend's house, right?
Rehana (04:29):
Yeah.
Jenelle (04:29):
Like everybody lived right next door to one another.
Gaby (04:31):
Yeah
Rehana (04:31):
it was awesome
Gaby (04:33):
And we spent just, you know, we had all just graduated
college and we didn't know whatwe were doing with our lives and
we all needed some direction andhelp.
And it was just nice having thatpeer mentorship and like people
who like just got it.
Who are like, I, I feel you man.
I'm still totally lost.
Rehana (04:52):
[laughs] Totally.
Jenelle (04:52):
I think for me that point was when I fell in love
with you, like in our friendshipbecause you have always been,
um, in my eyes, just veryconfident in who you are.
And I was always a littleintimidated by you because you
were, you were way cooler than Iwas at that point.
Gaby (05:13):
Yeah.
You've always been really cool
Jenelle (05:14):
you've always been cooler than me, but you were
Gaby (05:17):
for the, for the nerds, you're the coolest thing.
Jenelle (05:19):
Yes, yes.
I agree
Rehana (05:19):
[laughs] Right, I feel like that's an important caveat.
Gaby (05:24):
Yeah.
Jenelle (05:24):
Yes.
We were all nerds.
Gaby (05:26):
We were in a magnet program together.
Rehana (05:28):
Yeah.
Gaby (05:29):
Let's not forget
Jenelle (05:30):
I was not, but you were , yeah
Rehana (05:31):
I tried to hit all the nerd categories.
I mean, I was an AV nerd.
I was in a nerdy communicationsprogram.
I was a star Trek nerd.
I was also a marching band nerd.
Jenelle (05:44):
Wait, you were in marching band?
Rehana (05:45):
Oh yeah.
It's so funny to hear you saythat.
You thought I was cool cause Ithought you guys were super
cool.
Gaby (05:50):
No!
Rehana (05:51):
Yes!
Jenelle (05:52):
So I want to go down this tangent for a second
because it relates to all of us.
And in the last, I'd say liketwo months, there's been a lot
of people from my past who havecome up to me and said something
in the realm of like, I wasreally intimidated by you or you
always were so confident, youwere so cool.
And I was like[inaudible] no.
Like I, I never felt that way.
(06:14):
I'll talk specifically formyself after college.
Like I would talk with Gaby andshe would say the same thing
back of like, we love Rehana,Rehana's so cool.
Like she's just so much coolerthan us.
She knows what she likes.
She, she, she feels veryconfident being herself and
standing up for what shebelieves in.
And you had very strong goals ofwhat you want to accomplish in
your life even then, I think,did you feel that way?
(06:35):
Did you feel confident and cool?
Rehana (06:39):
Wow.
Now, now it got deep.
Um, I think that I was sort ofraised in a philosophy of, um,
don't look to celebrities andtraditional kind of hero figures
to model your life after kind oflook in and, and think about
(07:02):
what you think is right and whatyou want to do.
And I think that that helped me,um, that helped me kind of
cultivate a, a mindset where Iwasn't looking at other people
and saying, oh, I guess I shouldbe doing that.
So I always felt like I wasdoing the right thing for me at
(07:24):
that time.
Did I feel like I was cool?
No, definitely not.
do I feel like I'm cool now?
No, absolutely not.
Gaby (07:32):
You are
Rehana (07:32):
I feel like I'm, I feel like I'm me.
Um, and that's, that's cool.
I think
Gaby (07:38):
that is, yeah, that's the coolest part about you is that
you've always just been you andlike, and completely and totally
out loud.
And I think that's what Iadmired the most about you is
that you are the first personwho I connected with and saw in
my life, especially in highschool who was like me out a
(08:02):
person of color who wascross-cultural, bi-racial and a
daughter of an immigrant.
Like those are all complexintersectionalities and not that
w ere, that w e're the same.
Our families are from verydifferent places in the world.
Rehana (08:17):
Right.
Gaby (08:18):
But you are somebody who I was like, oh look, like I'm not
alone in this.
Rehana (08:23):
Yeah, totally.
I felt that same way about youtoo.
And I think that, you know, youare also someone who understood
that.
Um, and I still feel this waynow.
There are certain parts of youthat are core and uh, you know,
help you determine how to beauthentic across different
(08:43):
spaces, but sometimes you do alittle bit of code switching.
You kind of frame who you aredifferently in different
contexts.
And, um, it took a long time, meto be comfortable doing that and
in a way that didn't feel, um,inauthentic.
Gaby (09:01):
Yeah.
Rehana (09:03):
Um, but that was, that was something that I think you
and I really connected about toobecause, uh, you know, we were
kind of a different version ofourselves with our families at
some points.
And sometimes it would be, Ifound it difficult to kind of
talk to friends who weren't inthose sort of different
situations like we were, um, andhave them understand that.
(09:27):
Right.
So, you know, a lot of my, a lotof my, um, American friends who
didn't have immigrant familieswere very open with their
parents about the fact that theydrank alcohol or did drugs or
something like that.
And they didn't understand that,no, not only can you not imply
(09:50):
that I am doing those things,which in high school I was not
really that much.
But, um, but also I don't wantyou implying that you do because
my parents won't let me see youanymore.
Gaby (10:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rehana (10:02):
Um, and I think that that, you know, carried through,
I've seen that carry through inmy life of just like some, some
people that haven't had to dothat dance constantly throughout
their whole lives.
Uh, don't really understand howyou can still be you and do
that.
Gaby (10:20):
Yeah.
I think being mixed in any way,like mixed race, cross cultural,
coming from two differentidentities that smashed together
that intersectionality and thenhaving multiple layers who at
right, like sexuality added toit and then nationality added to
it sense of like your, yourspirituality even, right?
(10:44):
Like these are all elementsthat, I don't know if this was
true for you, but for me it mademe so much more cognizant at a
young age about what theseelements of identity mean and
their consequences, you know,like how the world sees
different people for who theyare based on the box that they
(11:05):
placed them in.
Rehana (11:07):
Yeah, totally.
I mean, um, I feel like I sawthat a lot.
I witnessed it a lot watching mydad, um, you know, be, uh, go
through experiences that I feltlike my friend's parents weren't
going through and littlecomments that people would make
(11:27):
to me of, um, you know, Iremember as late as high school,
a close friend asking me if mydad spoken clicks.
Gaby (11:35):
What?
Rehana (11:35):
Yeah.
Gaby (11:36):
Did they know where your dad was from?
Rehana (11:38):
Oh, they'd met him a bunch of times, knew he was from
Ethiopia.
Um, like
Jenelle (11:43):
was this a friend that knew you or just somebody random
Rehana (11:45):
close friend.
Close friend.
Jenelle (11:47):
Interesting.
Rehana (11:48):
Um, and uh, but I don't think that I really felt that
about myself until college.
Um, where I went to apredominantly white Catholic
university.
Um, and suddenly people are,were looking at me and uh, I
(12:12):
remember for the first timefeeling like, oh, I'm black.
You know, where previously I hadfelt like I'm African and I'm
mixed race and I'm Ethiopian.
Um, but I hadn't felt like blackAmerican until college when
people were looking at me andputting me in in a box.
And No, I mean, I think thatthat was kind of the first time
(12:35):
where I was, where I kind of hadto grapple with the fact that
you don't get to determine youridentity and your descriptors
completely in a bubble that'salso shaped by society in the
way that society sees you.
And that impacts you everysingle day.
Whether you select certainidentifiers or people place them
on, you can have a real impacton your life.
(12:58):
Um, so I think that college wasa big time when I was reflecting
on my identity and how I woulddescribe that to people.
Um, and it certainly evolved alot from when I was in high
school.
Gaby (13:12):
Yeah.
I think I remember having areally deep conversation with
you when, you know, at the endof every single delegation that
we would lead those what tendedto be the most intense
conversations that we'd have.
And it was during one of theselast sessions that I remember
you and I stayed up one nighttalking really late into the
(13:32):
night about what race privilege,power meant and how it played a
role in our lives specifically.
And I think it was at that pointthat both of us started to
identify much more outwardlywith the LGBTQ community.
Rehana (13:52):
Yeah.
Gaby (13:53):
Like at what point did you feel like you, you officially
like quote unquote, likeidentified yourself as part of
the community?
Rehana (14:01):
So I, um, I like to say that I was never actually in the
closet to myself.
You know, they say like thecoming out cycle is kind of
first you come out to yourself,then you come out to friends and
family and then you come out tothe world.
Gaby (14:15):
Yeah.
Rehana (14:16):
Um, I kinda did that maybe in a weird order.
I feel like I, um, had my firstexperience liking a girl and
kissing a girl all in one nightand then, um, was confronted
with, from an external factor,what do you identify as all in
(14:36):
the same night?
And just immediately said, I'mbisexual.
And never felt that way.
Never thought about that before.
It just felt like a verynatural, organic process for me.
But I didn't really, I was quoteunquote, out all of high school.
Um, you know, uh, not to myfamily but at school certainly.
(15:00):
But I didn't go to GSA meetings.
I didn't, um, you know, I neverwent to like a pride event or
anything like that.
To your point, I didn't reallyfeel, I felt sort of like, oh,
this is just a thing about me,but it doesn't mean that I need
to go be in a big c community.
(15:20):
Right.
Um, I think it wasn't until Iwent to college and you know,
everyone's trying to find theirpeople, um, and being confronted
with, you know, not being ableto do certain things because I
was LGBTQ or facing certainsituations because I was queer
(15:43):
that I really found myselfwanting that community and
belonging to that community.
Um, I think also just thesometimes lack of representation
in our community ofintersectionality really fueled
me to want to be part of itmore.
Right, so when I got on campus,our LGBTQ student organization
(16:08):
was run by White, uh, cis gaymen and that was the reputation
of the group.
It was a place for white CISpeople, predominantly men to
find community.
But for the rest of us therewasn't really a spot for that.
Um, and that really motivated meto join it, to do events for it
(16:32):
and eventually to take it over,um, and lead it in order to show
new people coming in, you can,you can be in this community too
.
There's a space for us too.
Jenelle (16:42):
So I feel like in a, in a different way, sort of
separating it from um, theintersectionality of your race,
your religion, and then yourgender identity or not your
gender identity but yoursexuality.
I remember even in high school,uh, you did a talk and like a
presentation and stuff on, um,being Muslim and going through
(17:07):
Ramadan if I'm not mistaken.
Rehana (17:09):
Yeah.
Jenelle (17:10):
Were you, you had to explain like fasting to
everybody and what that alwayswas.
Like in my eyes, you, you'vealways been somebody who again
going back to I know who I amand sort of seeing opportunities
to educate people, right?
Like I think, I think I'vealways seen you as somebody who
identifies there's a gap,there's a knowledge gap, there
(17:31):
is a, just sort of a, anexperience gap and wanting to
step in and, and be that type ofperson.
How do you think that that'sbeen there for you, your, your
whole life?
Or was there a point where thatreally was instilled in you?
Rehana (17:46):
Well, I think I um, was confronted my otherness very
early in life.
Gaby (17:51):
Yeah.
Rehana (17:52):
Um, I mean I have memories of being three or four,
like the only memories I havefrom that time of my life were,
um, of feeling really differentand no one being able to
pronounce my name.
Um, I would sometimes go byHannah instead.
Gaby (18:09):
What?
Rehana (18:09):
Um, Yep.
Uh, for, I remember until I wasabout six or seven, um, telling
my parents that as soon as I was18, I was going to change my
name, um, to Iman, my middlename because it was easier to
pronounce.
And I would sometimes tellpeople to call me Iman, um,
(18:31):
instead of Rehana because theywould just butcher it.
Um, and then I sort of, uh, Iwould say like midway through
elementary school, um, kind ofwas like, yeah, I'm different.
I don't see anyone else like mehere.
Uh, but you know what, that canbe helpful.
And, um, I feel like later inlife, you know, Harvey Milk, uh,
(18:57):
really put it well when he kindof told his group that if you're
not out, you need to come outbecause, um, which was very
controversial to say.
And for the record, I don'tbelieve that everyone who is
LGBTQ needs to come out of thecloset.
It's very personal decision.
(19:18):
But the part that reallyresonated with me was the
reasoning behind it of the waythat we're going to make gains
is if people realize, oh, I havea gay neighbor, I have a gay,
um, you know person at thegrocery store that works at the
grocery store that I go to.
I have like all these people inmy network that I didn't know
(19:41):
about.
Um, that
Gaby (19:44):
So normalizing it
Rehana (19:44):
Right.
So I feel like that kind of putinto words what I've felt a lot
of my life, which is yeah, I'mdifferent than the people around
me and how do I make sure thatthey get to know me and they get
to know about my differentnessin a way that makes them, moving
(20:04):
forward in their lives, be moreopen to people like me in the
future.
Um, so like my college roommatewho's one of my closest friends,
um, you know, hadn't had aMuslim friend before.
Uh, several people on myfreshman floor hadn't ever had a
Muslim friend.
So I did fast-a-thon my freshmanyear, which was a thing that we
(20:27):
did at my school where we wouldinvite non Muslims to fast with
us for a day.
Um, and that was a really coolexperience cause they were
coming to me all day and saying,I'm so thirsty.
How do you do this all whatthen?
Jenelle (20:41):
Yeah.
Rehana (20:43):
Um, you know, just what are opportunities to kind of
bring people in, bring peopleinto the conversation.
Um, rather than just saying, oh,you don't already know about
this while then I'm not going totalk to you.
Gaby (20:55):
Yeah.
I, I'm wondering actually howyou feel about when people say
it's not my job to educate you,right.
Because I personally, and thisis a personal decision, I think
everybody might feel differentlyabout it.
I, I think because I feel like Irepresent so many things that I
(21:17):
want people to understand memore.
I want people to be educated andinformed in the way to engage
with me and my community, atleast my preference is for that.
And I feel very comfortabledoing that.
But I also, um, recognize thatit's not any person of colors or
(21:38):
individual who identifies in anyspace.
It's not their job to do it.
Right.
And I think that's a complicatedthing to explain to someone who
maybe isn't from any minoritygroup because like, I think a
lot of people are like, well, Ijust want to understand.
I'm trying to understand so thatI can be an ally.
(22:00):
Right.
Like, how do you feel abouteducating folks outside of the
space?
Rehana (22:05):
Yeah, it's a great question.
Uh, and I think that, um, itdepends on what they're asking
to be educated about.
Um, but also just up front, wehave Google now you can go ahead
and get a baseline knowledge.
Right?
And I feel like, um, there's acertain amount of learning that
(22:26):
you can't, you can't read overthe Internet.
Right?
You can't, uh, form a genuineconnection with someone, um, by
reading an article that theywrote.
That's not a two way experience.
So I feel like there's a needfor both.
Um, but I totally agree withyou.
It's not someone'sresponsibility.
And if you come to me with aquestion that, you know, you
(22:49):
could have googled in fiveseconds.
Jenelle (22:51):
Hmm.
Rehana (22:52):
I might be a little annoyed.
Right.
Um, but it also depends on thecontext, like where we are
having that conversation.
Who you are.
Right.
So when we were in El Salvadordoing those, um, trips, I had
some really great conversationswith, um, some of the women that
were cooking for us, um, aboutwhat a Muslim was and what we
(23:14):
believed.
Right.
Their, their questions were, but, um, you still believe in Jesus
Christ, right?
You still, do you believe inGod?
Um, things like that.
I'm good with those questions.
Right.
Cause they don't, they couldn'tGoogle it.
Um, and I was probably, if notthe only, one of the only
(23:36):
Muslims they were ever gonnameet in their life.
Um, but that also speaks to likemy comfort on the topic.
Right?
Yeah.
Um, but I've seen, you know, andexperienced a lot of, I don't
want to say bigotry.
Well I'll say bigotry maskingitself as well meaning
(23:58):
questions, you know, um, and asa bisexual, this is something I
get a lot from other folks inthe LGBTQ community, right?
Is they'll say, um, oh, you'rebisexual.
So that means, does that meanyou always need to be dating a
man and a woman at the sametime?
Or does that mean that youwouldn't date a trans person or
(24:21):
that you hate trans people?
And those, I kind of feel likethose are not open ended
questions that start a dialogue.
Those are, um, you kind ofcoming at me with the negative
things that you've heard andtrying to say disprove this
position.
Right?
So
Jenelle (24:41):
I think it's also, it's a way of, um, categorizing you
as, as a thing or an experiment,right?
Like those types of questions tome, cause I, I've gotten very
similar ones, um, being alesbian and I always feel like
they're, they make me feel likean object rather than a human
(25:01):
being that's complex.
Rehana (25:03):
Right?
And like you're speaking forthat whole group of people,
right?
So,
Gaby (25:08):
yeah, that's dangerous.
Rehana (25:09):
I can't speak to other people's attraction.
I can speak to my own.
So why don't you ask me an openended question about why I, uh,
chose to identify in that way orwhy I describe myself with that
label and what that means to me.
Um, rather than repeating somekind of bigoted things that
(25:29):
you've heard in the past.
So, but to kind of loop back andanswer your question, I don't
think it's anyone's job to be,uh, you know, the teacher,
right?
Um, because then you also getinto this like quote unquote
(25:51):
model minority issue where youfeel like, uh, and I've
certainly felt this in the past.
You know, I have to be the, uh,smartest person in the room to
show people that black peopleare smart or to show people that
Muslims are smart or I have tobe really nice to prove that
Muslims aren't angry terrorists.
(26:14):
Right?
Gaby (26:14):
Yeah.
Rehana (26:15):
Um, and, uh, that can be really damaging and hard to deal
with.
I think
Gaby (26:24):
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Jenelle (27:01):
What I reflect back from what you said is it's not
anybody's job to educateanybody, right?
Like some of this we can do withGoogle, depends on the person
and things like that, but interms of getting people to, to
get on our side, right?
To create more allies, do we putpeople into these sort of boxes
(27:22):
and say like you have to fitinto this box in order to be
making progress or to be able tosay or do certain things or do
we sort of throw people rope andpull them along with us?
Rehana (27:33):
I love this question and I love talking about this.
I think that I like to meetpeople where they're at and when
I get frustrated is when peopletell me they're at a different
place than they are.
If that makes sense.
Gaby (27:48):
Can you give an example?
Rehana (27:49):
Yeah.
So if someone says, I'm a reallygreat ally, I'm a big ally.
That's how I define that, that'slike how they define themselves,
but they are not doing some ofthe actions that you know, you
feel are critical for an ally.
So for example, if they say I'ma big ally to the LGBTQ
(28:10):
community, but they are not, um,you know, calling their
representatives and advocatingfor the Equality Act, calling
their senators and advocatingfor the equality act.
Um, if they are not, uh, callingpeople by the correct pronouns
that they would like to becalled, if they are not doing
(28:31):
some of these macro level andmicro level things, if they're
not examining their privilege,if they're not, helping to build
a more accepting communities.
Um, then they're not likethey're not a, um, advanced
(28:51):
ally.
Right?
Jenelle (28:53):
Right, right.
Yeah.
No.
And that, that's an interestingway to put it, right.
Cause I sort of disconnected itbetween somebody saying, Hey,
I'm an ally.
Happy Pride when they're notactually acting that way versus
maybe people who aren't sayingthat but are doing certain
things.
Right.
And if you are self identifyingas an ally, well that has a lot
(29:13):
of weight to it and it means youneed to be doing certain things
in order to live in that world.
And in order to have that label.
Rehana (29:20):
Absolutely.
And to me allyship is notpassive.
It is active.
It requires commitment andaction constantly.
Um, it requires you to thinkcritically about situations in
your everyday life, uh,actively.
It requires you to activelyexamine your privilege, uh, in
(29:42):
different contexts.
And, um, and you can, anyone canwish me a happy pride.
I will take that from anybody.
But, uh, if you tell me that youare an ally, that carries more
weight to it.
And I feel like also it dependson, well, I, I won't say,
(30:04):
actually, I take it back.
I don't mean I will accept happypride from anyone because, uh,
Trump's tweets about pride, uh,really set me off.
So I will not take happy pridefrom anyone.
Um,
Gaby (30:17):
if you're deliberately undermining my back to be who I
am,
Rehana (30:21):
Right.
I will take a happy pride fromanyone who's not actively
harming or oppressing me and,uh, contributing to or
supporting folks who areactively harming her oppressing
me.
But I do feel like, you know,along with kind of how do we
cultivate an environment wherepeople can learn authentically
(30:44):
and be vulnerable, um, no matterwhat stage they're at, that's a
question that I want to keepthinking about and I want to
keep trying to do is how do Imeet people where they're at so
that they can be vulnerable withme about what they don't know
about what they don'tunderstand.
And I feel like that buildsstronger, more committed allies
(31:05):
later because, um, because theywill reflect on that moment and
say, Rehana whoever that personwas generous with me and gave me
the space to mess up, gave methe space to say something
stupid by accident and apologizeand accepted my apology, didn't
just write me off.
(31:25):
So that's what I try to do andtry to be committed to.
But sometimes it's hard, youknow, when someone, when someone
says something that you feel isignorant or bigoted and you want
to react with, just get out ofmy face, I don't want to talk to
you anymore.
It's hard to maintain that, um,that space for them to do that
(31:49):
in.
And um, sometimes you can't,when it becomes unsafe for you,
sometimes you can't.
Gaby (31:56):
Can we dig in on that specifically in terms of when
someone does the flip side ofbeing an ally and very much is
deliberately pushing you awayfor who you are.
I know you have some verytangible examples of this in
your life and so do I.
Um, you know, like we weretalking about family dynamics
(32:18):
earlier and the challenges ofbeing rejected by family because
of who we love.
Rehana (32:26):
Yeah, totally.
Definitely have vivid examplesof that.
I feel like going along withmeeting people where they are,
you have to listen to people andwhen they tell you what their
limits are or who they are,believe them.
Right.
Hear them.
So when, you know, members of myfamily told me, this is not
(32:49):
something I can accept.
I don't want to see you anymore.
I don't want to talk to youanymore.
Um, I heard them and I said,okay, you just told me that I'm
going to keep living my life andbe who I am.
Um, but I'm gonna I, I hear yousetting that boundary, right.
And I hear you telling me whoyou are and what you can and
(33:11):
can't deal with.
And that's hard.
That's definitely hard.
It's been hard for me and isespecially still a very common
thing in our community, not justin the LGBTQ community, but in
these LGBTQ communities of coloris not an uncommon experience at
all, unfortunately.
Gaby (33:33):
Yeah.
Something that's, that reallyresonated with me, um, is your
experience of, um, having afamily member, you know,
basically set that boundary andsay, I'm not gonna recognize
that piece of you, that part ofyou.
Um, and, and then the humanmessiness of the community
(33:56):
around us and their reaction tothat.
Because as a family unit, wegrow up in a community.
All of us grew up in a similarcommunity and neighborhood.
And so our neighborhood, I wouldsay I would argue is pretty
tight knit.
Like we said, our neighbors,your neighbors in particular
were all best friends living onthe same block.
(34:19):
And so that was a very closeknit space.
Rehana (34:23):
Yeah.
Absoluely.
Gaby (34:23):
So when your family engaged with you and in a way
that rejected part of youridentity, how did the community
react?
How did people respond and werethey allies to you?
Rehana (34:38):
So, I think that that's a, it was a really hard
situation for them to be in.
You know, this is, this is metrying to be a, as empathetic as
possible because both of us aremembers of that community,
right?
So taking sides is always a hardthing to do.
And I think that also being anally is not something that you
(34:58):
either are doing right or doingwrong.
There's sort of different layersto it, right?
You could be a great ally to acommunity on a macro level and
that might look very differentwhen you are trying to be an
ally to an individual person.
And what I like to do and what Ilike to tell people is you can
(35:21):
just ask, right?
I love to be asked, hey, how canI support you right now in this
situation?
What can I do to feel, to makeyou feel more welcome in this
context?
What can I do to show you that Isupport you?
And you know, one of the thingsthat hurt when, uh, everything
sort of went down with my familyis, um, some members of my
(35:44):
community didn't ask thatquestion and therefore didn't
know what would be helpful to meand what would make me feel safe
and valued.
So I didn't, I did not feelwelcomed anymore in the
community that I had grown up inand had defined a lot of my self
(36:05):
identity and a lot of my, um,childhood years.
So when you, I feel likesometimes when you assume how
you can be a good ally tosomeone on an individual level,
when they're going throughsomething difficult, uh, the
odds are not in your favor ofwhether you're going to exactly
hit the mark of what they want.
Right.
(36:25):
That's, that's just a reallyhard thing to, to know
intuitively, especially ifyou're not, uh, especially if
you've never dealt with the samesituation before and, um, are
not familiar with the certainmix of emotions that they might
be going through.
And so, um, one of the things,uh, after that all happened was
(36:46):
we were a very, as you said,tight knit community and
neighborhood and had a lot ofneighborhood events and we were
both still being invited andthat did not make me feel like I
was actually invited because Iwas not going to attend an event
that he was at.
Um, that didn't feel safe for me
Jenelle (37:06):
Right, and in some way they should have thought of that
or realize that
Rehana (37:09):
Maybe, I mean, again, I kind of, for my own mental
health, I like to take a stepback from"should" and kind of
take away the responsibility ofsomeone else, um, intuitively
knowing that cause they hadnever been in that situation
before.
And even if they had, we're allindividual people and so I can
(37:33):
definitely see a context wherethat might not have bothered
someone so much.
But for me, it made me feel likewe were on equal footing.
Like it was a situation where,Oh, you had this fight and you
both said things you didn't meanand so you're both still invited
to things and you're both stillin the community.
(37:56):
Um, where that was not, that wasnot the feeling that I had.
But what I ended up doing was Iended up having some really
difficult conversations with,with, you know, close friends
and members of the community andtelling them, okay, maybe you
didn't ask how I wanted to besupported, but now I'm telling
you this is what would make mefeel comfortable and supported
(38:17):
and uh, had a lot of successwith that.
And they were very open to that.
But something that was reallycritical to me through this time
was if I didn't have thatcommunity that I had grown up
with, being able to seek supportand get support from my chosen
family, my support system, andhaving that support system was
(38:39):
really, really critical.
And I think that's why Idefinitely don't believe that
everyone always needs to comeout because you, it takes a
while to build that supportsystem and without it, that's a
really difficult process.
You know, I was at the time whenthis all happened, I was in a
(39:01):
very, you know, supportive,committed relationship with my
now wife and had I not had thatsupport system, um, it would
have been a very differentstory.
Gaby (39:11):
Yeah.
Jenelle (39:12):
So I think, um, that, that, that story of feeling like
you, the people in the communitythat you wanted to be an ally to
you and they weren't, and beingable to say like, I'm going to
come at this from a place of a,I like how you said like, not
that they should have, right.
(39:33):
Like understanding that maybethey haven't been in that
situation before, I think is soimportant.
Right.
It, and just from myperspective, right?
Like that's part of the way thatI want to live my life is, is to
be able to look at people andsay, like, you, you don't have
enough knowledge.
You don't have enoughinformation.
And so I'm going to give you thebenefit of the doubt in this
situation, which, and, andthinking that people in
(39:55):
believing that people can learnand they can change and they can
grow.
Um, it makes me think of the,the sort of the Kevin Hart
situation where, uh, he wasgoing to host the Emmys or the
Grammy's or
Rehana (40:05):
Oscars.
Jenelle (40:06):
Oscars.
Right.
And a lot of people came out andwere sort of saying things that
he had said a long time ago, um,was a reason that he should not
be hosting the Oscars.
Right.
He said some, uh, maybehomophobic things that some
point in his acts, but sincethen he had apologized.
He had changed his approach.
(40:27):
Right.
He, he had stopped saying thosethings.
He changed his views, or atleast hopefully he had.
Um, but that still, they weresaying like, even though you had
done it once, it means thatthat's who you are.
And so I, I appreciate the, themindset from somebody inside the
community.
Right.
And somebody who wants allies aswell to look at other people and
(40:48):
say, you're not perfect.
Maybe you haven't experiencedthis.
And so I'm going to give you thebenefit of the doubt.
And if you don't take me, once Ido that, then that's a different
story.
But at least I'm going to takethat first step.
Rehana (41:01):
Yeah.
And sometimes I listen to theSavage Lovecast.
Um, and
Jenelle (41:06):
What's that?
Rehana (41:08):
Dan Savage's podcast.
Jenelle (41:09):
Oh, okay.
Rehana (41:10):
Dan Savage, uh, spoke about this in the context of the
2016 election about HillaryClinton and members of the LGBTQ
community questioning whethershe really supported the
community because of policiesthat she had supported in the
past.
And the point that he made thatreally resonated with me was,
(41:33):
um, if we don't when, when weconvince people right when we
have won them over and they aresupportive of us, if we don't
say, okay, great, you're herenow.
You apologized for the past, nowyou're with us.
Um, how do we build allies if wedon't then say thank you and uh,
(41:57):
and not wipe the slate clean,not forget about the past, but
allow them to atone for that andum, and welcome them and allow
them to then, um, stand with us.
Uh, how are we gonna we, wecan't succeed without allies.
We can't advance our rightswithout allies.
Gaby (42:17):
Yeah.
This is something that I am verypassionate about, um, in terms
of policing, right?
Communities about who can andcannot be an ally.
And once you're making an effortto be an ally, I often
experience or witness folksshaming individuals who don't
(42:43):
use the exact proper languagethat is maybe quote unquote
politically correct today.
Um, but somebody is tryingthey're, they're learning,
they're actively trying toparticipate and becoming someone
who can advocate for our group.
(43:04):
I'm very passionate aboutensuring that that person is
given more tools to be able tocontinue their journey towards
being a good ally and being agood advocate rather than
shaming that person and saying,how dare you use that word?
I am incredibly insulted.
You are now shamed and you'rerejected from being a part of
(43:25):
this.
Rehana (43:26):
Yeah.
So I think that for me, um,shaming is not a, a tool that I
use a lot in my toolbox, but Ithink it's, it belongs in the
toolbox and it is valuable incertain contexts.
I think that, um, I think it,you know, I, I hate for my
answer to keep being context iseverything, but I really do
(43:48):
believe that.
And where someone, especiallydepending on what they're asking
us for, right, if you're askingme to vote for you and your
policies are not consistent withwhat you are claiming to
support, you know, if you sayyou're supporting women but you
are not supporting a pro choicelegislation, right.
(44:11):
I'm, I'm all for shaming thosepoliticians.
I am all for, um, you sayingyou're not going to get my vote
if you claim that you aresupporting LGBTQ people, but you
are not supporting the EqualityAct.
Um, or you are saying, okay,great, I'm good with gay people,
but I'm still, I'm still not forTrans people's rights.
(44:34):
Right.
Um, you know, maybe Trump has,uh, has a point.
I, I'm all for shaming them.
Um, so I think that shamingpeople has a definite role in
our continued fight for equalityand for, um, advancement of our
(44:54):
rights.
I think though that, uh, it'shard in a personal context.
It's hard in, in smaller groups.
When that comes up.
Um, but I think also that partof being an ally and part of,
um, uh, claiming to be an allyis recognizing that you, um, you
(45:19):
might get some things wrong andthat there are consequences with
that.
So I think that if someone, youknow, uses incorrect terminology
and then offends someone andthey respond in that way, um,
and that person claiming to bean ally says, oh, well, forget
it.
I'm out.
This was not, you, you didn'tlet me, you didn't, uh, um,
(45:43):
thank me just for being here.
That's still you not fullyrecognizing your privilege,
right.
Um, and not being the actualally that you are claiming to
be.
So sometimes you're gonna getthings wrong.
We all get things wrong and youhave to be comfortable being
called out by that.
Jenelle (46:01):
Yeah.
So what I was thinking on is,vulnerability is such a huge
part of being an ally, right?
Because in my eyes, there's twosides of it.
One is, vulnerability is thewillingness to try and maybe say
the wrong words, maybe do thewrong thing.
(46:22):
Right.
Um, but knowing that, feelingthat fear and working through
it, right, and, and that, thattakes a lot of vulnerability to
do, Do that.
The second half of that isexactly what you said at the
end, right?
Knowing that sometimes you'regoing to mess up and you're
gonna get called out for it.
Right?
So the second part ofvulnerability in being an ally
is being able to say, I'm sorryand recognizing, and being able
(46:44):
to say, I fucked up and I'msorry.
And being willing to say, teachme what I'm supposed to do.
Right.
And for us, talking about, sortof bringing this full circle in
a sense of saying it's noteverybody's responsibility to
educate, right.
I totally understand being in apoint, whether it's forever in
(47:05):
your life or, or in periods ofyour life where you're just
like, I don't want to educateyou.
Like, I'm sorry, I'm done.
Why doesn't everybody justunderstand this?
Why do I have to be the one todo this?
Right?
And I think for somebody comingfrom an outside wanting to be an
ally to somebody, understandingthat we're going to get to a
point where we're like, I justhad the same conversation for
(47:27):
five days in a row for whateverreason or this has just been a
part of my life to have toeducate people so much, I don't
want to educate you and you'regoing to get called out and
maybe not taught in that moment.
Right.
And I think knowing that, don'ttake that personally, right.
Try at least try not to takethat personally and be able to
(47:47):
say, let me self-reflect.
Right.
This is, this is another reasonwhy I think therapy is so
important.
Right?
Why everybody should havetherapy in order to not only
better themselves but also tohelp better other people is one
as somebody who needs an ally, Idon't, I want that person to
(48:08):
understand that I'm a humanbeing in some days I'm not going
to be myself, best self or somedays I just don't want to,
right?
And they need to be able to workthrough that.
Um, but also for your own selfin somebody, me personally
wanting to be an ally to otherpeople that are not in my
identity is I need to be able tohave moments where I get called
(48:29):
out and I can then reflect onthat and be able to say, okay, I
understand where this is comingfrom.
This isn't about me, being ableto move forward in that.
That's such a huge part of whatthat is.
Rehana (48:40):
Yeah.
And if you come into a space andyou say, if I do something
wrong, I'm not willing to sufferany consequences or I don't feel
like I should have to suffer anyconsequences, then you're
carrying your privilege intothat space and you're not, you
know, really recognizing thatsometimes when, sometimes you're
going to get called out and youhave to be okay with, um, you
(49:02):
know, uh, facing thoseconsequences.
Like you might say somethingthat offends someone and then
the consequences, you know whatyou have, we understand you're
learning, but you've made thisspace unsafe for someone else or
feel unsafe for someone else.
And so you're not gonna be inthis space for a little while,
right?
You're not ready to be in thisspace.
(49:22):
Sometimes that's a consequence.
And, um, you know, I think thatif we want to be good allies, we
have to be willing to, uh, todeal with those consequences.
Gaby (49:33):
This has been an amazing chat.
I did want to end on a questionthat Jenelle recommended that I
love, which is what do you gotgoing on in your life that you
want to share with ourlisteners?
Rehana (49:44):
Great question.
Um, so as I mentioned at thetop, I'm co-chair of the board
of directors of the DC Centerfor the LGBT community and, uh,
it's an fantastic organization.
You know, I think sometimes whenpeople think about, um,
supporting LGBTQ rights or theLGBTQ community, these big name
(50:06):
organizations come to mind likeHRC and HRC is fantastic.
I'm a monthly donor to HRC aswell.
But what I would really stressis, you know, allyship and
supporting different communities, uh, comes at, in different
contexts and in the localcontext, there's a lot of great
local LGBT that are doingfantastic work in the DC metro
(50:31):
area.
Um, so if you all, if listenersout there, um, please check us
out at thedccenter.org.
On social media@thedccenter, and, uh, if you have the financial
means to donate, please do.
Uh, they do incredible work inthe community.
They have lockers for LGBTQhomeless youth.
(50:54):
They run support groups anddiscussion groups, uh, for
different parts of thecommunity.
Um, they have, uh, a lot ofprogramming for LGBTQ older
adults and for LGBTQ asylumseekers from other countries.
So as you think about who you,uh, donate to to support the
community, I would encourage youto think about the DC center and
(51:18):
if you want to follow me onsocial media, which would be
awesome.
I am on Twitter at@rehanamohammed and I'm on
Instagram@rehanaimohammed.
So please look me up and let'sconnect.
Gaby (51:31):
Thank you so much for being with me here with us and,
and sharing a little bit of, uh,your story.
Rehana (51:35):
Thank you for having me.
This was fantastic.
And I love how you guys aresaying what is missing and just
creating it, right?
This is definitely somethingthat, um, I've been wanting to
listen to and think about andhear other people think about
for a long time and I just soappreciate that you guys said,
well, we're gonna make it.
(51:55):
We're just gonna create it.
We're gonna fill that, fill thatgap.
So I think that's awesome.
Jenelle (52:00):
That's all Gaby.
Rehana (52:01):
Takes a lot of, takes a lot of bravery.
Gaby (52:02):
I'm excited.
Jenelle (52:04):
Yeah.
Gaby (52:04):
Brave, Not Perfect
Jenelle (52:04):
Brave, not perfect indeed.
Gaby (52:07):
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Join in on the conversation.
We'd love to hear from all ofyou.
Visit our websitethewaywelead.com and share a
voice memo on our contact uspage.
We want to hear your examples ofan experience where someone was
not a good ally to you.
How did that play out?
Were you able to give thatperson to feedback?
If not, how, if at all, wouldyou want to resolve it.
(52:30):
While you're on our website,subscribe to our newsletter for
some additional behind thescenes materials.
It comes out every other weekalternating with our episodes.
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Then sign up to become a monthlypatron by clicking on our
Patreon button on the top rightof the website.
(52:52):
This episode was produced by me,Gaby Acosta, and co- hosted by
my kick ass wife Jenelle Acosta.
Music was written and producedby the talented Emily Henry.
A special shout out goes out toall of our seed fund campaign
donors.
We really could not have donethis without you.
Here's the Jenelle singing thisweek's list of donors.
Jenelle (53:15):
[singing] Carly Dell, Cathrine Nelson, Christy
Stanford, Cole Ingram, CoreyHoyt, Courtney Lausch.
Gaby (53:26):
Hashtag
Jenelle (53:26):
30 for 30, baby.
Yeah![Dog Barks] Every time.
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