October 14, 2025 • 30 mins
Healthy Shame vs Toxic Shame, in this episode of The Wellness Connection Podcast, Fiona Kane explores the surprising truth about shame and how it can shape our personal growth. Learn how to recognise the difference between toxic shame that holds you back and healthy shame that helps you grow, build empathy, and become a better version of yourself. Discover why feeling a little uncomfortable sometimes can actually be a powerful teacher for emotional awareness, humility, and connection.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Fiona Kane (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Wellness Connection
podcast.
I'm your host, Fiona Kane.
I'm actually going to betalking to you about the
surprising benefits of shametoday.
Might sound like a crazy topic,but uh bear with me.
Let me explain to you what Imean.
So, like many things in ourworld, we kind of go a bit one
(00:20):
way or the other, we kind of goto extremes.
And I remember when I was achild seeing that there was
there had been a lot of shame inthe world, and I know my
grandparents and my mother,people in my life were brought
up with a lot of shame.
And I saw the sort of the toxiceffects of that, that it was
sort of overboard, where it wasreally toxic shame, really
(00:43):
unhelpful.
And you know, when when we weretalking about toxic shame, it
really can, it's like put you inthat deer-in-the-headlights
kind of inability to move spacebecause your nervous system is
reactive all of the time, andyou know, you're kind of just
obsessing about what peoplemight say or what people might
think.
So shame can be a negativething, but like many things,
it's dose-dependent and it'sit's can swing one way or the
(01:06):
other.
You can have too much water,you can die from water intake,
or you can die from lack of it,right?
So a lot of things uh that way,they're about dose.
So I want to talk just a littlebit more about this and what uh
you know what I mean in regardsto this.
So first I wanted to um youknow just clarify that the
difference between sort of toxicshame and healthy shame.
(01:28):
So, you know, this toxic shameis uh, you know, where we blur
the lines of um, you know,cognition, like I was just
saying, like uh we end up inthis nervous state and we we
can't we just think everythingwe're in trouble all the time
and you know uh everything'sabout us and everything's our
fault and really, really bad foryour mental health.
(01:49):
And um, and when we look atthose sorts of things,
essentially, you know, we wefeel like our our needs and
wants are bad and we shouldn'tbe allowed to have uh have needs
or wants or make mistakes, allsorts of things, right?
So we don't want toxic shamebecause that is unhealthy.
On the other hand, there issuch a thing as healthy shame,
(02:13):
and healthy shame actually helpsus function in the world and
helps us connect with otherpeople, and it's pretty much
that thing, it's the differencebetween whether or not you're an
a-hole or whether or not youcan be a decent person.
And I think that we all allexperience this in our lives.
Like I know myself, there aretimes in my life, there are
moments in my life, and Iremember them, some of them in
(02:35):
particular, where I was a reala-hole.
I just said things that wereignorant and stupid, and I had
no idea.
And and someone called me outon it and told me why I was
being ignorant and stupid.
And I learned, right?
I felt deep shame, but I alsolearned, and I learned to have
more empathy and to use my braina bit more and to, you know,
(03:00):
widen my horizons and not be sonarrow-minded.
And lot many things I learnedbecause we we essentially we do
need to learn how to be a humanbeing in the world.
And you know, I think um JordanPeterson says this, and he's
right, something along the linesof, you know, your children,
you make sure your children arepeople that you like being
around, because if you don'tlike being around them, nobody
(03:22):
else is going to, right?
So you've got we've got tosocialize them to the point
where, you know, they have wecan be around them.
If your child, you know, fortheir whole life is, you know,
they're losing monopolies thatthey flip the board upside down
or that kind of thing.
If you're doing that, ofcourse, you may or may not do
that a little bit when you'refirst learning about sharing and
playing and whatever.
(03:43):
But over time, you actually dolearn that that's not socially
acceptable, and you don't createfriends by doing that, right?
So it's kind of our role insociety, it's our contract with
society, the contract we havewith society, how we choose our
societies to be, what we wantour society to look like, and
(04:04):
how you have a functioningsociety, there needs to be a
certain level of shame so thatwe do act within certain
parameters, right?
And you know, that I think thatis okay.
It's if if it's extreme, it'snot, but I think it's okay
because if you should feel shameif you're harming other people,
(04:24):
or you know, if you've murderedsomeone, or you know, that
there's things that shame shouldabsolutely be attached to
because we should know thatthose things are wrong.
So shame is there for a reasonand it plays a role.
And what I'm seeing more andmore is that we have said that
well, shame's bad and evil, andtherefore we should abolish
(04:47):
shame.
And no, we shouldn't abolishit, it has its place, and you
see it more and more, and yousee it in lots of different
ways.
So you see it in things likeum, you know, even just the
thing with children, they allget a merit certificate, they
all pass, they all, you know,you can't get fails, you can't
(05:07):
get an F, and everyone has toget a participation certificate,
blah, blah, blah.
It's you know, that shame ofactually failing because you
didn't try hard enough uh isactually a good thing.
Now, yeah, obviously there'salways extenuating
circumstances, and if you needmore support and all of those
things.
I get that.
So I'm not saying that weshould shame people who, you
(05:28):
know, aren't good at certainthings or whatever.
Uh, there's ways of doing thesethings.
But at the same time, uh, formany of us, the reason we don't
pass or don't do well is becausewe don't prepare.
And when you first realise thatand you realize you've got to
actually put the effort in, orthere's a consequence, right?
Essentially, there's aconsequence to not putting the
effort in.
It's not a bad thing to learnthat there's a consequence, and
(05:50):
part of that might be thatshame.
I I remember the first time Icouldn't pay my rent because I
spent all my money on clothes.
Anyone who ever knew me,surprise, surprise.
And I had to ask for money andum and loan some money, and I
just felt really shamed that,oh, I'm a grown-up and I can't
even pay my own rent.
How silly am I?
And uh, I'm not again, I'm notshaming people who are having
(06:10):
issues now and the what the wayour world is and and with uh
with the way with the wayfinances are for people at the
moment.
But you know, in my situation,it was very much, it was very
clear I'd just done it tomyself, right?
So in situations where we'vedone something really silly,
we've done something to uh toourselves, we've caused
ourselves a problem, you don'thave to shame someone
(06:31):
forevermore.
However, that that bit of shamethat you have when you kind of
go, okay, yeah, I've put myselfinto a difficult situation.
Maybe I'll I've you know I'mgonna learn now that that's not
a good idea.
So it's like I said, it's aboutdose, it's situation,
situational and about dose, butI've learned to be better.
I've certainly learned to be abetter friend and learned to be
(06:52):
better at how at how I talkabout different things, and uh
you know, like I was sayingbefore, times where I've judged
people or just said things thatare purely ignorant.
And I have had moments in mylife where people have
absolutely called me out.
Uh, they've ever called me outby, you know, when I was much
(07:13):
younger, uh, I've had people uhunfriend me for because I was
just an a-hole.
And and I'm not talking aboutsome more recent things that
have happened in my life, butmany years ago, right?
And I reflect back and think,oh my god, the way I treated
that person was terrible.
And because I was a young adultand learning how to be a
grown-up, and I didn't do itvery well, right?
Uh, or you know, the timeswhere I said I've said things
(07:36):
that are really, reallyignorant, and I've had someone
call me out and say, that'sreally ignorant, Fiona, this is
why.
And that I felt shame, but itwas actually a really good
thing, a really healthy thing,because it made me reflect on
the issue and think about it ina different way.
Because have you ever thoughtabout it this way?
And when I thought about it theother way, I was like, Oh,
yeah, you're right.
(07:56):
And uh, you know, so it'suseful because it makes us uh
reexamine what's going on for usand grow as a human being.
So, some other examples ofwhere I'm seeing this sort of
play out in the world.
Uh, what I'm essentially seeingis I what I'm seeing is what
we've done is we've really losta lot of Christianity in the
(08:20):
Western world, uh, in the world.
And I'm not particularlyreligious in any way, although I
feel like I'm heading in thatdirection or becoming a bit more
that way inclined.
But what I've noticed is whenwe've when we've lost Christian
values, our societies replace itwith other things, and it's not
(08:41):
necessarily healthy.
So while I'm not arguing foreveryone must be a Christian or
everyone must be part of thechurch, on reflection now, a
society with Christian valueswasn't a bad thing, and not
having that, I think, is a netnegative thing.
Is there like there's negativethings that come with with
(09:02):
religions, all those things?
I understand that.
I'm not being extreme aboutthis.
I'm just saying the generalidea of Christian values, which
is you know, kind of love thyneighbor and and act like a
decent human being isn't a badisn't a bad thing.
That's not a negative thing,but we've uh thrown it away,
thrown it away in our society alot.
And I think that we need to uhre-examine things and look at
(09:23):
what values have come in toreplace that.
So the sorts of places whereI'm seeing this is things like
uh, you know, recent eventswhere essentially people
celebrate the death of someoneelse, the murder, the
assassination, the assassinationof someone else, because they
had a different opinion to themor they didn't like what they
said, or they perceived them tobe on the other side of the, you
(09:43):
know, whatever.
Uh, you know, if if you'reinvolved in a war or something
and it's Hitler, I'm like I getthat, but just um, but not in
the sort of things that I'mtalking about, you know, like
Charlie Kirk.
But uh not only celebrating it,but filming yourself
celebrating it and cheering eachother on.
Where's the shame?
(10:04):
Like there should be shame.
That's celebrating the death ofa father, young man.
That that why is there notshame around that?
That is disgusting.
You know, that should beshameful, and it's not being
shameful, it's actually beingrewarded in some places and uh
cheered on.
That to me tells me that um oursociety's kind of lost its
(10:24):
moral compass somewhere.
Uh then there's other thingslike um, you know, and this
might be uh well, all of thesethings um ultimately end up end
up being you know, political orwhatever, but celebrating
abortion as an empowerment andand as a way of birth control,
(10:46):
like it is it's one thing to toneed to use to need to do this
at times in life.
And I'm not judgmental aboutchoices that people have to make
and that these things happen.
And I I I kind of do believe inuh women having those rights to
a degree, and that is fine, andI've always sort of been okay
(11:09):
with that.
But there are again, there areelements of society that are not
just saying, okay, sometimesthese things happen and we need
to be, you know, it should be,it should be rare and and you
know, and early and all of therest of it, and let's just uh
minimize these things, which isone way, like which is once upon
a time the healthy way oflooking at it, and the way that
the left actually did look atit, but now it's actually women
(11:31):
on podcasts saying, Oh, I've hadfive, oh, I've had six, oh, you
know, what like there should besome shame around that.
Like, I don't think womenshould have to feel ashamed that
they've had these issues happenin their lives and made these
choices.
But if you're if you'rechoosing it as your firm of form
of birth control and you'rereally proud of it, I think
there is something shamefulabout that.
(11:52):
So not shameful that it everhas happened or that uh people
make those choices, but shamefulthat you don't make better
choices overall and you're usingit as a birth control tool.
Yeah, I think, yeah, I that tome that is shameful.
So then celebrating it andbeing proud of it, that is just
(12:13):
weird to me.
Uh, and then there's a whole,you know, don't yuck my yum.
Have you heard that stuff?
Well, again, I get it from apoint of view of like not being
judgmental about what otherpeople are into and not
everyone's into the same thing,and not everyone enjoys the same
thing, and you know, somepeople are straight, some people
are gay, this and that,whatever.
(12:33):
Fair enough, I get that.
But there are some things I amgoing to yuck, you know.
If you're so there's some yumsthat I think are absolutely
disgusting, and I am going toyuck that.
And um, and you know, this isthe kind of things that people
are harming children and thatkind of thing.
There's a certain there's somethings, yeah, I am gonna yuck
your yum.
So in general, you know,healthy uh healthy adults in
(12:57):
private who are who areconsenting is one thing, but
there's just this whole kind ofweird vibe going around where
it's like we need I'm supposedto accept certain things.
No, I'm I am gonna yuck youryum if I think you're shameful.
And you know, and that's whereyou see this thing, like when
you look at things like pridemarches, and um, and I'm not
(13:20):
anti-gay or or any type ofthing.
I celebrate all different kindsof people, it's wonderful.
But when I was growing up, itwas actually it was a um it was
a march for rights and for youknow health and rights and and
dignity and all of those things,which is fair enough, which is
exactly what it it was about.
And some of the the way that uhgay people in society were
(13:42):
treated for many, many for along, long time is horrific.
So I'm all for that.
I used to actually go to youknow go and celebrate uh you
know the Mardi Gras in Sydney,that sort of thing.
But in some places, Pride Nowhas become this horrible
pornographic, fetished displayof let me show you all the most
(14:06):
disgusting and vile things thatpeople can do to each other, and
I'm gonna do them on thestreet, and you should celebrate
me.
No, no, definitely not, right?
So, and I've heard a lot of gaypeople say this as well.
This isn't an anti-gay remarkby at all.
It's just people now think thatthere's there shouldn't be any
(14:29):
shame, and they feel like theycan just do stuff on the street
that is shameful and disgustingin front of children, that sort
of thing.
And we should celebrate thatand not don't yuck my yum and
you should celebrate me.
And yeah, no, I'm notcelebrating that.
No.
Uh, do what you want in yourbedrooms.
Again, the consenting adults,all that stuff.
(14:49):
But you know, that's not pride.
That's not pride.
And if that is pride, that'srevolting.
Like that's just that's notwhat pride ever was, and that's
what it's sort of become andbecoming.
Um, so I haven't been nearanything like that for a long
time for that reason.
I just think, oh yeah, no,that's not okay.
And um, like a lot of my uh gayfriends and people, like
podcasters I listen to, thatsort of thing agree with me.
(15:11):
They say the same thing.
Uh, they don't want to beassociated with that sort of
behavior.
And then there's things likewhere we're uh eating ourselves
to death and celebrating it andthe whole kind of I've talked
about it before, but the youknow, health at every size where
we've celebrated morbid obesityand we've celebrated uh there's
(15:32):
you know different um again,it's it's good to have as
someone who's battled with myweight my whole life and been up
and down and all the rest ofit, like I I get it, and I don't
think that we should shamepeople for putting on weight,
and I think that it's it's acomplicated and that when we're
(15:52):
really shameful about it, that'sthat can be a real toxic shame
and that's not helpful and quiteharmful.
On the other hand, when we haveSports Illustrated magazine
celebrating morbid obesity,that's not healthy either.
So, you know, there's there'sjust gonna be conversations
around this where we, you know,we've gone too far and we're
(16:13):
celebrating things that aren'thelpful or healthy, and that
whole kind of Lizzo thing.
I mean, even Lizzo has sort offinally losing weight or lost
weight recently and realizedthat um it wasn't something to
celebrate, uh, having such a bigum weight issue and health
issue for her.
So, you know, it's those kindsof things as well where we've
(16:35):
sort of celebrated uh celebratednot looking after ourselves and
celebrated being really unwell.
The other thing that wecelebrate is we celebrate being
children forever and beingreally immature and you know,
there's sort of p-to-pan livesnow.
So there are adults now whokind of, you know, there's one
(16:56):
thing to say, oh, I chose not tohave children or I wasn't able
to have children or whatever,and that's fine.
You know, and I get that to apoint and do something useful
with your life, that's great.
Uh, and I I'm in that categoryof someone who wasn't able to
have children, but also wasn'tsure if I wanted them at
different times.
And I get all that, no judgmentabout that.
I think we, you know, it'scomplicated, fertility is
(17:18):
complicated, life is complicatednow, and we don't all aren't
all able to have children.
So that's fine.
But then then there's butthere's this again, there's this
extreme, there's this extremekind of celebration of being a
child forever and influencessort of going online, kind of
saying, Well, you know, I've gotit better than you because I
(17:40):
can, I don't know, get drunkevery night and go and you know,
party with lots of differentpeople and you know, indulge in
lots of random sex and takedrugs and whatever because I get
to be the eternal teenager andI get to spend all my time
playing video games or whatever.
(18:00):
And they actually do that likesay that like they're really
proud of her.
And it's one thing to be, youknow, it's it's you know, it's
nice to have a certain amount offreedom, and there certainly is
there's freedom associated withbeing able to do things that
you want to do when you want todo them, and being able to go
out and go to parties or go tosee a rock concert and those
sort of things.
It's great, you know.
But then there's kind of justbeing a Peter Pan and being a
(18:23):
forever child or foreverteenager and just not growing
up.
And again, there's there's aline somewhere, and I think
we've crossed it somewhere wherepeople are kind of going,
really going to the nth degreeon that one and being really,
really proud to, you know,basically I'm 65 now still live
in my parents' basement sort ofsituation.
(18:44):
And um, yeah, no, that's notsomething to be proud of.
And and again, yeah, I don'tknow.
So there's a certain level ofshame that, you know, shame can
be motivating.
It can be what uh what gets youout of bed and go you go and
work, or you and or you tryharder in your job because you
mess something up, so you tryharder to do better.
(19:04):
Uh, or like I said, the socialcontract stuff where you know
how to treat other people andyou know how to get along with
other people and you know how tohave you know self-respect.
So respect that you look afteryourself, your body, your
cleanliness, your health, andall those things, and respect
for other people as well, forthem to look after themselves,
all of those things.
(19:25):
So there's you know, when shameis a driver like that, it can
be a really good thing, and andso yeah, I think kind of getting
rid of shame or kind of sayingshame's all a completely bad
thing is not being has not beenhealthy and has not been
helpful.
And I think that we need toembrace it the healthy shame
(19:47):
again, and um, and some sort ofsense of Christian values of
some kind, uh something alongthose lines.
And uh I think it's healthierfor us because we but it makes
us grow grow up and behave likesensible human beings and uh be
kind and and be caring and youknow, and I hear about all this
(20:10):
empathy all the time.
It's really, really weirdbecause empathy seems to be more
for there's a lot of empathyfor people who want to not be
grown up and who want to notlook after themselves and who
want to be perpetual victims,but no empathy otherwise.
It's really, really weird thatempathy is yeah, it's probably a
(20:30):
whole episode on its own justtalking about the weird vibe
around empathy these days.
Um, you know, and even justthings like um, you know,
there's an author who is areally good author and someone
who I used to really look up toand now I just oh, I can't.
Um, and it's Liz Gilbert.
And Liz Gilbert shares thingsthat she should really be
(20:54):
ashamed of, and she is not, uh,which makes me wonder about her
looking at the personality typesand the dark triad of
personality types and things.
She's you know, she's kind ofsharing how she wanted to kill
her partner because her partnerwas dying and it was really hard
for her.
(21:15):
And um, not saying, you know,I've been in situations where
you've been dealing with someonewho's at the end of life and
it's really frustrating.
And sometimes, sometimes youwish they were out of their
misery and so that everyonecould be out of their misery.
I like I do get that, but thisthis is a whole next level
thing, this was though.
This was a whole next levelthing that she's celebrating in
her latest book.
And she talks about in an essayhow she used to deliberately
(21:39):
destroy relationships andmarriages, and she'd sort of
just she learned how to be, shesaid, you didn't have to be
anything amazing, you just hadto be different to the wife, and
then you could learn how to actin a certain way, then you
could take that person fromtheir partner, this kind of
thing.
And the more I read about thethings that she says, it's kind
of weird because it's like inplain sight, it's the people act
(22:01):
like they're all about empathyand spirituality, and we're so
wonderful and we're so evolved.
And in plain sight, they'reactually telling you who they
really are.
And um, I'm looking at her forthe first time and kind of
thinking, wow, okay, you shouldthere's some some places where
um shame would be really helpfulfor you.
And I don't think she has anyat all.
(22:23):
And I uh I don't think she's agood person.
Um, she's a good writer, andI've enjoyed reading some of her
books, but I think um I thinkshe's a bit of a parasite on
other human beings, and she usesother human beings to basically
get her get content so she canmarket herself and write books
and sell books, and yeah, that'smy my opinion, just my opinion.
(22:46):
And um, yeah, I don't know,that's just the feeling I get
from her at the moment.
So, you know, shame isn't toxicby nature and doesn't
necessarily have to be harmful.
So even though we we've we'vekind of thought that or we've
kind of realized or pathologizedas being sort of something
that's detrimental, um, it canbe a really powerful ally for
(23:09):
us.
And um, and you know, we needto create we need to create
enough space to calm our nervoussystem and gather our
resources.
And I've talked a lot to youabout uh about building
capacity, and building capacitycan allow us to sort of feel
these negative feelings of likewhere we feel shame or we feel
bad about something, but thenuse that to build a better
(23:33):
version of ourselves and to touh motivate ourselves to do
better, not use it as a way ofhating on ourselves forever.
So, you know, it might be justpausing a little bit and um you
know, creating a some compassionaround a situation.
So it might be some compassionfor yourself or self-compassion
for others.
Um, and that is fine.
Um, get your strength back upand and learn a little bit and
(23:57):
get back into it.
But um, but yeah, it's shamecan have a role.
Excuse me, I just have a sip oftea.
So yeah, shame can be reallybeneficial when we use it the
right way, and it really canhelp us connect with others
because sometimes we do breakagreements in relationships, or
(24:18):
sometimes we don't realizeexactly what we're saying.
I know there's been times in myrelationship with my husband
where when he reflected back tome what I was actually saying to
him or how I sounded, I wasashamed and I should have been,
right?
And that's not a bad thing toactually, you know, if someone
sometimes people need to hold amirror up to us and show us how
we're behaving and who we'rebeing, because we don't always
(24:39):
realize it.
Um so some degree of shame, itjust reminds us that um we're
not isolated people living on anisland that aren't and we're
not answerable to other people,we are answerable to other
people to a certain degree, andwe're also answerable to
ourselves, and if we havecertain boundaries and certain
uh certain uh policies, notpolicies like sort of social
(25:02):
contracts in place, that doeshelp us do well, and and even
just in general, if you justlook at human beings as in
general, or when we look atbringing up children, that sort
of thing, we've always knownthat having healthy boundaries
is really, really good forchildren, right?
So it doesn't mean terriblerestrictions where people can't
grow and be who they want to beand all of that, but at the same
(25:23):
time, a certain level ofboundaries actually does help
us, it does motivate us becauseif every day was like a Sunday
and you were not answerable toanyone or anything, that is not
healthy for human beings, it'sreally bad for our physical and
mental health.
So having social contracts isnot a bad thing.
Um, and you know, so you know,healthy shame, healthy shame
(25:45):
does orient us towards growth,it helps with our growth.
So if we use it the right way,it we grow into a better human
being and we're able totransform ourselves into a
better human being rather thanjust sort of um the toxic kind
where all we do is stew in itand um don't move forward at
all.
So I I think um, you know,toxic shame usually is that kind
(26:08):
of inner critic stuff where allwe're doing is just having a
goal at ourselves and hating onourselves.
So we do need to learn how tohave some self-compassion, show
up for ourselves, just showingup regularly for ourselves and
being kind.
Shame though does give us uh ataste of humility.
(26:29):
So I think that it is good forus sometimes to be humbled,
sometimes to have humility andrealize that we're human beings
and we're not better than otherhuman beings and all that sort
of thing.
So I think it's sort of a yeah,it's like a gentle reminder to
stay humble.
Shame can be as well that uhthat you you've broken a certain
contract, or you can, you know,you might think you're the
(26:50):
nicest person in the world, butguess what?
You can be an a-hole too.
So it is good to know that andlearn that and just have a
reminder of that becausesometimes we just get a bit too
we we get a bit too special withourselves and think we're a
little bit too good.
Uh, you know, and if we havehumour around this stuff, so if
you have humour around themistakes you make and the and
(27:12):
the things about yourself, likeI always laugh and say, Yeah, I
always joke with people thatwhen I'm in situations that I'm
like I'm a ray of sunshine, andother obviously I'm not the ray
of sunshine, and I guess youknow, have I pre deep thoughts
and sometimes dark thoughts, andand just I have a different way
of looking at the world.
I don't know, and I kind of Idon't walk around like sunshine
(27:36):
anyway.
Uh, it doesn't mean I don't dopositive things and I don't try
and inject positive things intosituation, but I'm not miss as I
just not miss sunshine, that'sjust not who I am.
But I joke about it all thetime that I am, and oh, you you
know, I walk into a room andeveryone lights up and I miss
sunshine.
You know, I joke around itbecause I know that that's I'm
not that, and it's a goodreminder for me just to
sometimes just like have a laughand to, you know, calm the farm
(27:59):
and all those things.
So it's just like you know,have a bit of a laugh, have a
bit of perspective, get a bit ofperspective on on who you are
and on the reality, andsometimes having a bit of a
laugh at yourself, uh and umbeing with people who are
prepared to laugh with you, notat you, but with you, and hold a
mirror up sometimes and justlike let you know that you are
being a bit of a bit of a dick.
(28:20):
It's not a bad thing, right?
And um, and so yeah, if we'reif we've got in brewing in that
toxic shame, we're often drawnto the negative people in
situations that only make itworse.
But if we have a healthy kindof shame, um then we we develop
a level of discernment aroundthat and we hang around people
who hold the mirror up for us,but in a kind way, in a
(28:42):
compassionate way, and um andyou know, we can use it as a
superpower and really learn tobe to understand where where we
can shine and where we don't,and where sometimes we need to
just wake up to ourselves.
We all do, we're human beings,we're living a human life, and
no matter how spirituallyawakened you think you are,
you're not because it only takesone thing or one situation for
(29:04):
you to find out how deeplyflawed you are, and that's okay
as well.
So, anyway, that's just my sortof I think there are a lot of
benefits to shame.
There is healthy kinds ofshame, and I think it's just
about rather than just throwingaway shame completely and living
in this shameless world wherewe think it's terrible to have
any kind of shame, it's justabout harnessing a healthy kind
(29:25):
of shame and letting go of thattoxic kind, but not letting go
of shame completely.
Anyway, I'd love to hear whatyou think about this topic, and
um, you know, please like,subscribe, share, comment, all
of those things because it helpsme get this podcast out to more
people.
And uh, I like to have realconversations about things that
matter.
And uh talk to you again nextweek.
(29:46):
Thanks, bye.
Hello and welcome to the Wellness Connection
podcast.
I'm your host, Fiona Kane.
I'm actually going to betalking to you about the
surprising benefits of shametoday.
Might sound like a crazy topic,but uh bear with me.
Let me explain to you what Imean.
So, like many things in ourworld, we kind of go a bit one
(00:20):
way or the other, we kind of goto extremes.
And I remember when I was achild seeing that there was
there had been a lot of shame inthe world, and I know my
grandparents and my mother,people in my life were brought
up with a lot of shame.
And I saw the sort of the toxiceffects of that, that it was
sort of overboard, where it wasreally toxic shame, really
(00:43):
unhelpful.
And you know, when when we weretalking about toxic shame, it
really can, it's like put you inthat deer-in-the-headlights
kind of inability to move spacebecause your nervous system is
reactive all of the time, andyou know, you're kind of just
obsessing about what peoplemight say or what people might
think.
So shame can be a negativething, but like many things,
it's dose-dependent and it'sit's can swing one way or the
(01:06):
other.
You can have too much water,you can die from water intake,
or you can die from lack of it,right?
So a lot of things uh that way,they're about dose.
So I want to talk just a littlebit more about this and what uh
you know what I mean in regardsto this.
So first I wanted to um youknow just clarify that the
difference between sort of toxicshame and healthy shame.
(01:28):
So, you know, this toxic shameis uh, you know, where we blur
the lines of um, you know,cognition, like I was just
saying, like uh we end up inthis nervous state and we we
can't we just think everythingwe're in trouble all the time
and you know uh everything'sabout us and everything's our
fault and really, really bad foryour mental health.
(01:49):
And um, and when we look atthose sorts of things,
essentially, you know, we wefeel like our our needs and
wants are bad and we shouldn'tbe allowed to have uh have needs
or wants or make mistakes, allsorts of things, right?
So we don't want toxic shamebecause that is unhealthy.
On the other hand, there issuch a thing as healthy shame,
(02:13):
and healthy shame actually helpsus function in the world and
helps us connect with otherpeople, and it's pretty much
that thing, it's the differencebetween whether or not you're an
a-hole or whether or not youcan be a decent person.
And I think that we all allexperience this in our lives.
Like I know myself, there aretimes in my life, there are
moments in my life, and Iremember them, some of them in
(02:35):
particular, where I was a reala-hole.
I just said things that wereignorant and stupid, and I had
no idea.
And and someone called me outon it and told me why I was
being ignorant and stupid.
And I learned, right?
I felt deep shame, but I alsolearned, and I learned to have
more empathy and to use my braina bit more and to, you know,
(03:00):
widen my horizons and not be sonarrow-minded.
And lot many things I learnedbecause we we essentially we do
need to learn how to be a humanbeing in the world.
And you know, I think um JordanPeterson says this, and he's
right, something along the linesof, you know, your children,
you make sure your children arepeople that you like being
around, because if you don'tlike being around them, nobody
(03:22):
else is going to, right?
So you've got we've got tosocialize them to the point
where, you know, they have wecan be around them.
If your child, you know, fortheir whole life is, you know,
they're losing monopolies thatthey flip the board upside down
or that kind of thing.
If you're doing that, ofcourse, you may or may not do
that a little bit when you'refirst learning about sharing and
playing and whatever.
(03:43):
But over time, you actually dolearn that that's not socially
acceptable, and you don't createfriends by doing that, right?
So it's kind of our role insociety, it's our contract with
society, the contract we havewith society, how we choose our
societies to be, what we wantour society to look like, and
(04:04):
how you have a functioningsociety, there needs to be a
certain level of shame so thatwe do act within certain
parameters, right?
And you know, that I think thatis okay.
It's if if it's extreme, it'snot, but I think it's okay
because if you should feel shameif you're harming other people,
(04:24):
or you know, if you've murderedsomeone, or you know, that
there's things that shame shouldabsolutely be attached to
because we should know thatthose things are wrong.
So shame is there for a reasonand it plays a role.
And what I'm seeing more andmore is that we have said that
well, shame's bad and evil, andtherefore we should abolish
(04:47):
shame.
And no, we shouldn't abolishit, it has its place, and you
see it more and more, and yousee it in lots of different
ways.
So you see it in things likeum, you know, even just the
thing with children, they allget a merit certificate, they
all pass, they all, you know,you can't get fails, you can't
(05:07):
get an F, and everyone has toget a participation certificate,
blah, blah, blah.
It's you know, that shame ofactually failing because you
didn't try hard enough uh isactually a good thing.
Now, yeah, obviously there'salways extenuating
circumstances, and if you needmore support and all of those
things.
I get that.
So I'm not saying that weshould shame people who, you
(05:28):
know, aren't good at certainthings or whatever.
Uh, there's ways of doing thesethings.
But at the same time, uh, formany of us, the reason we don't
pass or don't do well is becausewe don't prepare.
And when you first realise thatand you realize you've got to
actually put the effort in, orthere's a consequence, right?
Essentially, there's aconsequence to not putting the
effort in.
It's not a bad thing to learnthat there's a consequence, and
(05:50):
part of that might be thatshame.
I I remember the first time Icouldn't pay my rent because I
spent all my money on clothes.
Anyone who ever knew me,surprise, surprise.
And I had to ask for money andum and loan some money, and I
just felt really shamed that,oh, I'm a grown-up and I can't
even pay my own rent.
How silly am I?
And uh, I'm not again, I'm notshaming people who are having
(06:10):
issues now and the what the wayour world is and and with uh
with the way with the wayfinances are for people at the
moment.
But you know, in my situation,it was very much, it was very
clear I'd just done it tomyself, right?
So in situations where we'vedone something really silly,
we've done something to uh toourselves, we've caused
ourselves a problem, you don'thave to shame someone
(06:31):
forevermore.
However, that that bit of shamethat you have when you kind of
go, okay, yeah, I've put myselfinto a difficult situation.
Maybe I'll I've you know I'mgonna learn now that that's not
a good idea.
So it's like I said, it's aboutdose, it's situation,
situational and about dose, butI've learned to be better.
I've certainly learned to be abetter friend and learned to be
(06:52):
better at how at how I talkabout different things, and uh
you know, like I was sayingbefore, times where I've judged
people or just said things thatare purely ignorant.
And I have had moments in mylife where people have
absolutely called me out.
Uh, they've ever called me outby, you know, when I was much
(07:13):
younger, uh, I've had people uhunfriend me for because I was
just an a-hole.
And and I'm not talking aboutsome more recent things that
have happened in my life, butmany years ago, right?
And I reflect back and think,oh my god, the way I treated
that person was terrible.
And because I was a young adultand learning how to be a
grown-up, and I didn't do itvery well, right?
Uh, or you know, the timeswhere I said I've said things
(07:36):
that are really, reallyignorant, and I've had someone
call me out and say, that'sreally ignorant, Fiona, this is
why.
And that I felt shame, but itwas actually a really good
thing, a really healthy thing,because it made me reflect on
the issue and think about it ina different way.
Because have you ever thoughtabout it this way?
And when I thought about it theother way, I was like, Oh,
yeah, you're right.
(07:56):
And uh, you know, so it'suseful because it makes us uh
reexamine what's going on for usand grow as a human being.
So, some other examples ofwhere I'm seeing this sort of
play out in the world.
Uh, what I'm essentially seeingis I what I'm seeing is what
we've done is we've really losta lot of Christianity in the
(08:20):
Western world, uh, in the world.
And I'm not particularlyreligious in any way, although I
feel like I'm heading in thatdirection or becoming a bit more
that way inclined.
But what I've noticed is whenwe've when we've lost Christian
values, our societies replace itwith other things, and it's not
(08:41):
necessarily healthy.
So while I'm not arguing foreveryone must be a Christian or
everyone must be part of thechurch, on reflection now, a
society with Christian valueswasn't a bad thing, and not
having that, I think, is a netnegative thing.
Is there like there's negativethings that come with with
(09:02):
religions, all those things?
I understand that.
I'm not being extreme aboutthis.
I'm just saying the generalidea of Christian values, which
is you know, kind of love thyneighbor and and act like a
decent human being isn't a badisn't a bad thing.
That's not a negative thing,but we've uh thrown it away,
thrown it away in our society alot.
And I think that we need to uhre-examine things and look at
(09:23):
what values have come in toreplace that.
So the sorts of places whereI'm seeing this is things like
uh, you know, recent eventswhere essentially people
celebrate the death of someoneelse, the murder, the
assassination, the assassinationof someone else, because they
had a different opinion to themor they didn't like what they
said, or they perceived them tobe on the other side of the, you
(09:43):
know, whatever.
Uh, you know, if if you'reinvolved in a war or something
and it's Hitler, I'm like I getthat, but just um, but not in
the sort of things that I'mtalking about, you know, like
Charlie Kirk.
But uh not only celebrating it,but filming yourself
celebrating it and cheering eachother on.
Where's the shame?
(10:04):
Like there should be shame.
That's celebrating the death ofa father, young man.
That that why is there notshame around that?
That is disgusting.
You know, that should beshameful, and it's not being
shameful, it's actually beingrewarded in some places and uh
cheered on.
That to me tells me that um oursociety's kind of lost its
(10:24):
moral compass somewhere.
Uh then there's other thingslike um, you know, and this
might be uh well, all of thesethings um ultimately end up end
up being you know, political orwhatever, but celebrating
abortion as an empowerment andand as a way of birth control,
(10:46):
like it is it's one thing to toneed to use to need to do this
at times in life.
And I'm not judgmental aboutchoices that people have to make
and that these things happen.
And I I I kind of do believe inuh women having those rights to
a degree, and that is fine, andI've always sort of been okay
(11:09):
with that.
But there are again, there areelements of society that are not
just saying, okay, sometimesthese things happen and we need
to be, you know, it should be,it should be rare and and you
know, and early and all of therest of it, and let's just uh
minimize these things, which isone way, like which is once upon
a time the healthy way oflooking at it, and the way that
the left actually did look atit, but now it's actually women
(11:31):
on podcasts saying, Oh, I've hadfive, oh, I've had six, oh, you
know, what like there should besome shame around that.
Like, I don't think womenshould have to feel ashamed that
they've had these issues happenin their lives and made these
choices.
But if you're if you'rechoosing it as your firm of form
of birth control and you'rereally proud of it, I think
there is something shamefulabout that.
(11:52):
So not shameful that it everhas happened or that uh people
make those choices, but shamefulthat you don't make better
choices overall and you're usingit as a birth control tool.
Yeah, I think, yeah, I that tome that is shameful.
So then celebrating it andbeing proud of it, that is just
(12:13):
weird to me.
Uh, and then there's a whole,you know, don't yuck my yum.
Have you heard that stuff?
Well, again, I get it from apoint of view of like not being
judgmental about what otherpeople are into and not
everyone's into the same thing,and not everyone enjoys the same
thing, and you know, somepeople are straight, some people
are gay, this and that,whatever.
(12:33):
Fair enough, I get that.
But there are some things I amgoing to yuck, you know.
If you're so there's some yumsthat I think are absolutely
disgusting, and I am going toyuck that.
And um, and you know, this isthe kind of things that people
are harming children and thatkind of thing.
There's a certain there's somethings, yeah, I am gonna yuck
your yum.
So in general, you know,healthy uh healthy adults in
(12:57):
private who are who areconsenting is one thing, but
there's just this whole kind ofweird vibe going around where
it's like we need I'm supposedto accept certain things.
No, I'm I am gonna yuck youryum if I think you're shameful.
And you know, and that's whereyou see this thing, like when
you look at things like pridemarches, and um, and I'm not
(13:20):
anti-gay or or any type ofthing.
I celebrate all different kindsof people, it's wonderful.
But when I was growing up, itwas actually it was a um it was
a march for rights and for youknow health and rights and and
dignity and all of those things,which is fair enough, which is
exactly what it it was about.
And some of the the way that uhgay people in society were
(13:42):
treated for many, many for along, long time is horrific.
So I'm all for that.
I used to actually go to youknow go and celebrate uh you
know the Mardi Gras in Sydney,that sort of thing.
But in some places, Pride Nowhas become this horrible
pornographic, fetished displayof let me show you all the most
(14:06):
disgusting and vile things thatpeople can do to each other, and
I'm gonna do them on thestreet, and you should celebrate
me.
No, no, definitely not, right?
So, and I've heard a lot of gaypeople say this as well.
This isn't an anti-gay remarkby at all.
It's just people now think thatthere's there shouldn't be any
(14:29):
shame, and they feel like theycan just do stuff on the street
that is shameful and disgustingin front of children, that sort
of thing.
And we should celebrate thatand not don't yuck my yum and
you should celebrate me.
And yeah, no, I'm notcelebrating that.
No.
Uh, do what you want in yourbedrooms.
Again, the consenting adults,all that stuff.
(14:49):
But you know, that's not pride.
That's not pride.
And if that is pride, that'srevolting.
Like that's just that's notwhat pride ever was, and that's
what it's sort of become andbecoming.
Um, so I haven't been nearanything like that for a long
time for that reason.
I just think, oh yeah, no,that's not okay.
And um, like a lot of my uh gayfriends and people, like
podcasters I listen to, thatsort of thing agree with me.
(15:11):
They say the same thing.
Uh, they don't want to beassociated with that sort of
behavior.
And then there's things likewhere we're uh eating ourselves
to death and celebrating it andthe whole kind of I've talked
about it before, but the youknow, health at every size where
we've celebrated morbid obesityand we've celebrated uh there's
(15:32):
you know different um again,it's it's good to have as
someone who's battled with myweight my whole life and been up
and down and all the rest ofit, like I I get it, and I don't
think that we should shamepeople for putting on weight,
and I think that it's it's acomplicated and that when we're
(15:52):
really shameful about it, that'sthat can be a real toxic shame
and that's not helpful and quiteharmful.
On the other hand, when we haveSports Illustrated magazine
celebrating morbid obesity,that's not healthy either.
So, you know, there's there'sjust gonna be conversations
around this where we, you know,we've gone too far and we're
(16:13):
celebrating things that aren'thelpful or healthy, and that
whole kind of Lizzo thing.
I mean, even Lizzo has sort offinally losing weight or lost
weight recently and realizedthat um it wasn't something to
celebrate, uh, having such a bigum weight issue and health
issue for her.
So, you know, it's those kindsof things as well where we've
(16:35):
sort of celebrated uh celebratednot looking after ourselves and
celebrated being really unwell.
The other thing that wecelebrate is we celebrate being
children forever and beingreally immature and you know,
there's sort of p-to-pan livesnow.
So there are adults now whokind of, you know, there's one
(16:56):
thing to say, oh, I chose not tohave children or I wasn't able
to have children or whatever,and that's fine.
You know, and I get that to apoint and do something useful
with your life, that's great.
Uh, and I I'm in that categoryof someone who wasn't able to
have children, but also wasn'tsure if I wanted them at
different times.
And I get all that, no judgmentabout that.
I think we, you know, it'scomplicated, fertility is
(17:18):
complicated, life is complicatednow, and we don't all aren't
all able to have children.
So that's fine.
But then then there's butthere's this again, there's this
extreme, there's this extremekind of celebration of being a
child forever and influencessort of going online, kind of
saying, Well, you know, I've gotit better than you because I
(17:40):
can, I don't know, get drunkevery night and go and you know,
party with lots of differentpeople and you know, indulge in
lots of random sex and takedrugs and whatever because I get
to be the eternal teenager andI get to spend all my time
playing video games or whatever.
(18:00):
And they actually do that likesay that like they're really
proud of her.
And it's one thing to be, youknow, it's it's you know, it's
nice to have a certain amount offreedom, and there certainly is
there's freedom associated withbeing able to do things that
you want to do when you want todo them, and being able to go
out and go to parties or go tosee a rock concert and those
sort of things.
It's great, you know.
But then there's kind of justbeing a Peter Pan and being a
(18:23):
forever child or foreverteenager and just not growing
up.
And again, there's there's aline somewhere, and I think
we've crossed it somewhere wherepeople are kind of going,
really going to the nth degreeon that one and being really,
really proud to, you know,basically I'm 65 now still live
in my parents' basement sort ofsituation.
(18:44):
And um, yeah, no, that's notsomething to be proud of.
And and again, yeah, I don'tknow.
So there's a certain level ofshame that, you know, shame can
be motivating.
It can be what uh what gets youout of bed and go you go and
work, or you and or you tryharder in your job because you
mess something up, so you tryharder to do better.
(19:04):
Uh, or like I said, the socialcontract stuff where you know
how to treat other people andyou know how to get along with
other people and you know how tohave you know self-respect.
So respect that you look afteryourself, your body, your
cleanliness, your health, andall those things, and respect
for other people as well, forthem to look after themselves,
all of those things.
(19:25):
So there's you know, when shameis a driver like that, it can
be a really good thing, and andso yeah, I think kind of getting
rid of shame or kind of sayingshame's all a completely bad
thing is not being has not beenhealthy and has not been
helpful.
And I think that we need toembrace it the healthy shame
(19:47):
again, and um, and some sort ofsense of Christian values of
some kind, uh something alongthose lines.
And uh I think it's healthierfor us because we but it makes
us grow grow up and behave likesensible human beings and uh be
kind and and be caring and youknow, and I hear about all this
(20:10):
empathy all the time.
It's really, really weirdbecause empathy seems to be more
for there's a lot of empathyfor people who want to not be
grown up and who want to notlook after themselves and who
want to be perpetual victims,but no empathy otherwise.
It's really, really weird thatempathy is yeah, it's probably a
(20:30):
whole episode on its own justtalking about the weird vibe
around empathy these days.
Um, you know, and even justthings like um, you know,
there's an author who is areally good author and someone
who I used to really look up toand now I just oh, I can't.
Um, and it's Liz Gilbert.
And Liz Gilbert shares thingsthat she should really be
(20:54):
ashamed of, and she is not, uh,which makes me wonder about her
looking at the personality typesand the dark triad of
personality types and things.
She's you know, she's kind ofsharing how she wanted to kill
her partner because her partnerwas dying and it was really hard
for her.
(21:15):
And um, not saying, you know,I've been in situations where
you've been dealing with someonewho's at the end of life and
it's really frustrating.
And sometimes, sometimes youwish they were out of their
misery and so that everyonecould be out of their misery.
I like I do get that, but thisthis is a whole next level
thing, this was though.
This was a whole next levelthing that she's celebrating in
her latest book.
And she talks about in an essayhow she used to deliberately
(21:39):
destroy relationships andmarriages, and she'd sort of
just she learned how to be, shesaid, you didn't have to be
anything amazing, you just hadto be different to the wife, and
then you could learn how to actin a certain way, then you
could take that person fromtheir partner, this kind of
thing.
And the more I read about thethings that she says, it's kind
of weird because it's like inplain sight, it's the people act
(22:01):
like they're all about empathyand spirituality, and we're so
wonderful and we're so evolved.
And in plain sight, they'reactually telling you who they
really are.
And um, I'm looking at her forthe first time and kind of
thinking, wow, okay, you shouldthere's some some places where
um shame would be really helpfulfor you.
And I don't think she has anyat all.
(22:23):
And I uh I don't think she's agood person.
Um, she's a good writer, andI've enjoyed reading some of her
books, but I think um I thinkshe's a bit of a parasite on
other human beings, and she usesother human beings to basically
get her get content so she canmarket herself and write books
and sell books, and yeah, that'smy my opinion, just my opinion.
(22:46):
And um, yeah, I don't know,that's just the feeling I get
from her at the moment.
So, you know, shame isn't toxicby nature and doesn't
necessarily have to be harmful.
So even though we we've we'vekind of thought that or we've
kind of realized or pathologizedas being sort of something
that's detrimental, um, it canbe a really powerful ally for
(23:09):
us.
And um, and you know, we needto create we need to create
enough space to calm our nervoussystem and gather our
resources.
And I've talked a lot to youabout uh about building
capacity, and building capacitycan allow us to sort of feel
these negative feelings of likewhere we feel shame or we feel
bad about something, but thenuse that to build a better
(23:33):
version of ourselves and to touh motivate ourselves to do
better, not use it as a way ofhating on ourselves forever.
So, you know, it might be justpausing a little bit and um you
know, creating a some compassionaround a situation.
So it might be some compassionfor yourself or self-compassion
for others.
Um, and that is fine.
Um, get your strength back upand and learn a little bit and
(23:57):
get back into it.
But um, but yeah, it's shamecan have a role.
Excuse me, I just have a sip oftea.
So yeah, shame can be reallybeneficial when we use it the
right way, and it really canhelp us connect with others
because sometimes we do breakagreements in relationships, or
(24:18):
sometimes we don't realizeexactly what we're saying.
I know there's been times in myrelationship with my husband
where when he reflected back tome what I was actually saying to
him or how I sounded, I wasashamed and I should have been,
right?
And that's not a bad thing toactually, you know, if someone
sometimes people need to hold amirror up to us and show us how
we're behaving and who we'rebeing, because we don't always
(24:39):
realize it.
Um so some degree of shame, itjust reminds us that um we're
not isolated people living on anisland that aren't and we're
not answerable to other people,we are answerable to other
people to a certain degree, andwe're also answerable to
ourselves, and if we havecertain boundaries and certain
uh certain uh policies, notpolicies like sort of social
(25:02):
contracts in place, that doeshelp us do well, and and even
just in general, if you justlook at human beings as in
general, or when we look atbringing up children, that sort
of thing, we've always knownthat having healthy boundaries
is really, really good forchildren, right?
So it doesn't mean terriblerestrictions where people can't
grow and be who they want to beand all of that, but at the same
(25:23):
time, a certain level ofboundaries actually does help
us, it does motivate us becauseif every day was like a Sunday
and you were not answerable toanyone or anything, that is not
healthy for human beings, it'sreally bad for our physical and
mental health.
So having social contracts isnot a bad thing.
Um, and you know, so you know,healthy shame, healthy shame
(25:45):
does orient us towards growth,it helps with our growth.
So if we use it the right way,it we grow into a better human
being and we're able totransform ourselves into a
better human being rather thanjust sort of um the toxic kind
where all we do is stew in itand um don't move forward at
all.
So I I think um, you know,toxic shame usually is that kind
(26:08):
of inner critic stuff where allwe're doing is just having a
goal at ourselves and hating onourselves.
So we do need to learn how tohave some self-compassion, show
up for ourselves, just showingup regularly for ourselves and
being kind.
Shame though does give us uh ataste of humility.
(26:29):
So I think that it is good forus sometimes to be humbled,
sometimes to have humility andrealize that we're human beings
and we're not better than otherhuman beings and all that sort
of thing.
So I think it's sort of a yeah,it's like a gentle reminder to
stay humble.
Shame can be as well that uhthat you you've broken a certain
contract, or you can, you know,you might think you're the
(26:50):
nicest person in the world, butguess what?
You can be an a-hole too.
So it is good to know that andlearn that and just have a
reminder of that becausesometimes we just get a bit too
we we get a bit too special withourselves and think we're a
little bit too good.
Uh, you know, and if we havehumour around this stuff, so if
you have humour around themistakes you make and the and
(27:12):
the things about yourself, likeI always laugh and say, Yeah, I
always joke with people thatwhen I'm in situations that I'm
like I'm a ray of sunshine, andother obviously I'm not the ray
of sunshine, and I guess youknow, have I pre deep thoughts
and sometimes dark thoughts, andand just I have a different way
of looking at the world.
I don't know, and I kind of Idon't walk around like sunshine
(27:36):
anyway.
Uh, it doesn't mean I don't dopositive things and I don't try
and inject positive things intosituation, but I'm not miss as I
just not miss sunshine, that'sjust not who I am.
But I joke about it all thetime that I am, and oh, you you
know, I walk into a room andeveryone lights up and I miss
sunshine.
You know, I joke around itbecause I know that that's I'm
not that, and it's a goodreminder for me just to
sometimes just like have a laughand to, you know, calm the farm
(27:59):
and all those things.
So it's just like you know,have a bit of a laugh, have a
bit of perspective, get a bit ofperspective on on who you are
and on the reality, andsometimes having a bit of a
laugh at yourself, uh and umbeing with people who are
prepared to laugh with you, notat you, but with you, and hold a
mirror up sometimes and justlike let you know that you are
being a bit of a bit of a dick.
(28:20):
It's not a bad thing, right?
And um, and so yeah, if we'reif we've got in brewing in that
toxic shame, we're often drawnto the negative people in
situations that only make itworse.
But if we have a healthy kindof shame, um then we we develop
a level of discernment aroundthat and we hang around people
who hold the mirror up for us,but in a kind way, in a
(28:42):
compassionate way, and um andyou know, we can use it as a
superpower and really learn tobe to understand where where we
can shine and where we don't,and where sometimes we need to
just wake up to ourselves.
We all do, we're human beings,we're living a human life, and
no matter how spirituallyawakened you think you are,
you're not because it only takesone thing or one situation for
(29:04):
you to find out how deeplyflawed you are, and that's okay
as well.
So, anyway, that's just my sortof I think there are a lot of
benefits to shame.
There is healthy kinds ofshame, and I think it's just
about rather than just throwingaway shame completely and living
in this shameless world wherewe think it's terrible to have
any kind of shame, it's justabout harnessing a healthy kind
(29:25):
of shame and letting go of thattoxic kind, but not letting go
of shame completely.
Anyway, I'd love to hear whatyou think about this topic, and
um, you know, please like,subscribe, share, comment, all
of those things because it helpsme get this podcast out to more
people.
And uh, I like to have realconversations about things that
matter.
And uh talk to you again nextweek.
(29:46):
Thanks, bye.
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