Dad Life (with @TheDadEdge Larry Hagner) #017

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When your past knocks on the door unexpectedly after 18 years, you realize that fatherhood isn't just a role—it's a journey full of profound discoveries. 

This realization comes to life in my heartfelt sit-down with Larry Hagner from the Dad Edge podcast. We peel back the layers of what it means to be an active, engaged parent, touching on everything from the transformative effects of a standing desk to the emotional rollercoasters tied to our own childhood stories. 

As a father to four boys and a husband for over two decades, Larry brings a wealth of experience and insight into the art of communication and the power of vulnerability within family relationships. 

We share tales from our personal lives, revealing how past pains, like dealing with an absent father or the trials within stepfamilies, have sculpted our approaches to parenthood. It's a conversation that traverses the peaks and valleys of raising kids and nurturing a marriage, all while continuously growing as individuals.

The promises we make as parents and the effort it takes to fulfill them are the pillars of this episode. I get real about the intricacies of discipline, the commitment to creating a loving environment, and the intentional raising of emotionally intelligent boys. We discuss the importance of setting boundaries while also being a beacon of safety and guidance. 

These stories and advice are woven into a rich tapestry that reflects the enduring impact of fatherhood on personal growth and the legacies we build for our children. 

Join us for a discussion that's not just about parenting but about the essence of manhood and the indelible marks we leave on those we love.

Send us a text

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I was like, uh, yeah, I couldn't believe this.
I was like my dad just walkedin here and she's like what Wow.
And I was like he's right overthere, like 50 feet for me, a
few tables over, and she's like,oh my God, what are you going
to do Nothing?
And she's like what?

(00:20):
She's like you haven't seenyour dad in 18 years.
You're going to let him walkout of here.
I was like, yeah, that's theplan.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
And welcome to this episode of the whole parent
podcast.
My name is John, I am the hostof the whole parent podcast and
I am at whole parent on all ofthe social media platforms.
I am just going to give you onequick note here before we begin
this very long episode.
With Larry Hagger of the dadedge podcast.
He shares with us some reallyawesome stories, including his

(01:00):
journey to becoming a moreeffective whole parent.
If you have followed hispodcast yet, he has a lot of
amazing guests on, including mecoming up pretty soon.
So that's going to be excitingto be on somebody else's podcast
for a change.
But my quick note to you beforewe dive in, like I said, to this
kind of extended long episodeis to let you know that if you

(01:23):
have not gone ahead and writtena review and rated this podcast
yet on Spotify or Apple podcasts, you have an opportunity to do
that.
The last time I checked, whichwas, I think, yesterday, we had
99 reviews on Apple podcasts,which is by far our most
listened to station.
So all of you Spotify users outthere, that just means that you

(01:44):
have to get your Spotify userfriends to start to listen to
our podcast on Spotify so youguys can start to catch up.
We can gamify this little bit,see if you guys can catch up to
the Apple users, but the Applepodcast group has had 99 reviews
on Apple podcasts and so if youwant to be the 100th of you,
you got to go right now andreview it.

(02:04):
I got sick kids and so I'mgoing to sign off right now and
I'll be back at the very end ofthe episode just to let you know
how you can continue to supportwhole parent.
Without further ado, let's talkto Larry.
Hello, whole parent podcast.
Welcome to the dad edge host,larry Hagner.
Larry, how you doing today?

Speaker 1 (02:24):
I'm doing great man.
I'm just actually lowering mydesk as we, as we get started
here.
So if you see me, you knowgoing down the elevator.
That's why so screen.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
You know I don't have a desk that goes up and down,
but is this something that yourecommend for parents?

Speaker 1 (02:39):
I mean I like it just because, like I can't sit all
day, you know, I just I have toget up, I have to stand, I have
to move around.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
You know, just got to do it that way, I feel like I
feel like that's just like a youknow, low key in the first 30
seconds of our conversation.
What a great parenting tip.
Like kids, a lot of times Ifeel like the behaviors that
come out of kids that aresomewhat problematic, that
parents are contacting me onsocial media or whatever asking
me fix this, do this, how do Ifix a lot of that's just like,

(03:08):
man, just get your kids up.
They can't bounce off the wallsif there are no walls.
You know what I mean.
So, yeah, I hear you.
I'm also that way.
I just stand up and pacewhenever I'm not on a podcast.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah, I hear you, man , I'm actually going to stand
back up again because I can'tsit and do podcasting.
I'm just, I thought I would,but I'm not.
I'm not going to do that, so Iget it.
Hopefully we're notinterrupting your, your
recording, but you know, hey,maybe this is, maybe this is a
way to, you know, help getparents up and around.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, if you're listening to this, sitting down
and you're not driving right now, stand up, stand up move around
.
You're going to be a betterparent as a result.
That's right.
Yeah, you know I can't.
You know, one of my I'm I'm Idon't talk about this a lot on
the pod, but I'm also my, my dayjob as it is as a pastor.
And as a pastor, yeah, yeah,and as a pastor, I preach 50

(03:57):
weeks out of the year, 40, 45weeks out of the year, and I had
a situation really early onwhere I sliced open my knee
trying to move a chair on aSaturday night.
So, yeah, like had to go to thehospital.
That chair that chair wentstraight in the dumpster.
Man.
We had just gotten new carpet.
I was like my wife was likeyou're neat.

(04:18):
My wife's an ER nurse, so she'slike you're knee and I'm like
the carpet.
Sounds right Sounds accurate.
So so we, like you know, I hadto sit and preach on this stool
because I couldn't like wanderaround.
The stitches were like lessthan 12 hours old and so I had
to like sit and preach and itwas the most absolutely
antagonizing thing.

(04:38):
That like just to sit in oneplace and talk, was often for me
back then.
I can imagine these days thesedays I'm a little better, a
little better at it, but hey, Iwould love.
Yeah, so so you said it soundsright.
You're kind of giving somewindow into who you are.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself.
I'd love to hear from yourvoice.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Sure, so I am the father of four boys.
And the interesting thing aboutyou know you talk about your
knee and the stitches and allthat like I literally just put
out a post this morning with allfour of my boys on top of me
and it was like 400 pounds, likeliterally on me, and so I've
got, you know, a 17 year old, a16 year old, a 10 year old, then
an eight year old, and the 16year old weighs more than I do.

(05:20):
Now he's almost, he's, he'sgetting to almost 200 pounds.
I'm about 180.
And yeah, but father of fourboys, and I was joking in the
post that that we shouldprobably at this point, like
have a punch card for like afrequent, you know visit to
urgent care, like every 10th youknow visit that we get.

(05:41):
We should get free, so but uh,so I'm the father of four boys.
I never thought I'd say that.
I never thought I would saythat I'm the father of four boys
.
I mean I expected, you know,like 10, 15 years ago that I
would have two kids and thatwould be enough for me, it would
be enough energy for me, asmuch as I could handle from like
a bandwidth, from a financialaspect.

(06:02):
And like if you would haveasked me, you know, 20 years ago
, would you have four boys?
I would.
I would have laughed, I wouldhave absolutely laughed at you.
I would have been like there's,there's no possible way.
I've been married to my wifenow, for this will be 21 years
this year which is which blowsmy mind.
Thanks, man.
I met her.
I met her in college when shewas 18.
Uh and man, she just capturedmy heart and I knew she was like

(06:27):
a total keeper.
And thank God she's a patientand forgiving woman, because
otherwise we would not bemarried today, because I was
just a, an idiot and for for themajority of our relationship,
at least the first half, itwasn't until I started doing
this work that I really startedto turn things around and work
on myself and really there was aton that I learned, that there

(06:48):
was just revealed, you know,just in learning that, um,
things that we think you knowshould be norms, or things that
we that trip us up inrelationships that, quite
frankly, if you learn them, youknow you can, you can get in
front of them much faster.
It's just like anything else.
Like you're a pastor and, to behonest, like as much as I love
speaking I'm, I'm not qualifiedto to, to preach the gospel,

(07:10):
like I just don't know it, myknowledge of it is not, is not
good enough.
But you know, if I dedicatedseveral, you know, hours and
years of my life to that, Icould, I could learn it, I could
do it right.
And marriage, communicationconnection.
Man, it's really no differentthat if, if you're willing to
learn it, you know, if you'rewilling to give yourself, you
know, a chance to set the egoaside and learn a few new things

(07:33):
, it's, it's amazing what slighttweaks and little skills will
do, you know, in therelationship.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, no, that's such a good word and I feel like,
yeah, it's, it's like that withanything right.
That doesn't just have to beministry, it's, it's any
vocational profession where ifyou don't put, if you don't put
in the work, you're not going tohave the, the, the baseline
ability.
And I feel like there's stillan imposter syndrome, of course,

(07:59):
with everything right.
But but at the same timethere's also this amazing aspect
of when you really start to seethe dividends pay off.
It's, it's transformative.
And I feel like people don't.
People understand that invocational things, like they
understand that as an accountant, you have to, like, go and take
the classes and get your CPAand if you don't, you're not

(08:20):
going to be qualified to do thatwork.
They understand that if you'regoing to be a lawyer, you have
to pass the bar.
If you're going to be a doctor,you have to go to medical
school.
What they don't, I think, oftenrealize is that your job, 24
hours a day, seven days a week,is being a parent and, in our
cases, also a husband, and so Ithink that people just don't,
they don't do any education onthat and then they just expect

(08:43):
that you know, hey, I'm justgoing to be able to to do it,
and I think a lot of it comesfrom the fact that all of us
were raised at some point likewe had I'm not not everybody had
parents, but but everybody hadto some, to some aspect, someone
who brought them up.
And so I'd love to just kind ofask you about that.
You know what was your child?
Because you said that you werekind of a schmuck in the first
half of your marriage.

(09:03):
What was your childhood like?
What was what was growing uplike, and how does that affect
you today?
How much of that stuff have youhad to deconstruct?
How much of it have you learnedto lean on?

Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yeah, it's taken a ton of work and I'll share with
you my background and my storyand, by the way, it's no excuse
for for not being able tonavigate relationships.
Well, like, I mean, I will tellyou.
I mean I say I say this a lot,you know when, in the statement
that I'm about ready to say, andthat is, you know, I really,

(09:37):
really, truly buy into thisstatement, and the statement is
this that if you were not taughthow to navigate a relationship
through communication, throughconnection, empathy and all of
these things that make ourmarriages work, the connection
with our kids work, all of thesethings, you know what?
It's not your fault Because,quite frankly, if you really

(09:59):
look at most men and mosthusbands, and even women too, I
mean there isn't really a timeor a parent or someone who
pulled you aside and said son,today I'm going to start
teaching you how to love yourfuture wife intentionally, or
how to love a woman that you'redating intentionally.
I'm also going to teach you howto communicate with her right

(10:22):
Effectively.
I'm also going to teach youthat the woman that you're
dating, or the woman that you'regoing to marry, she has three
basic needs when it comes to therelationship and that's feel
seen, to feel heard and to feelsafe.
And if you can fulfill thoseneeds, she is going to feel very
fulfilled and most, most, most,most of the time she's going to
reciprocate.
True, right, we're not taughtthese things and our dads never

(10:44):
sit down with us, our moms neversit down with us because they
don't know.
They don't know what theydidn't know, right, they're
winging it, just like we are.
I truly think that theprofession that has the most
knowledge when it comes torelationship dynamics is a
psychologist, right, or apsychiatrist or someone who has
that knowledge, licensed familytherapist, everything else Like

(11:04):
if you're a cop, you're taughtto be a cop.
If you're a firefighter, you'retaught to be a firefighter.
If you're a MMA fighter in theUFC, that's what you're taught,
right?
So it's not your faultnecessarily that you, if you
don't know what to do.
Here's the tough love, though.
It is your responsibility tolearn it if you so choose.
And that last part, you know wewere all given free will.

(11:27):
You know that, as a pastor,we're all given free will.
You have the opportunity.
And now, in this age, in thisperiod of time, we have a window
to the world and by a click ofa button, we can actually learn
anything that we want.
Right, you can.
You can, literally.
If you have no idea how to fixyour hot water heater, there's a
YouTube video for that.

(11:47):
Yep, right, if you don't knowhow to build intimacy with your
wife, there are countlesscoaches.
There are courses, there arebooks, there are podcasts just
by a click of a button.
You know, when you and I weregrowing up I'm not sure how old
you are, but you had to go, like, look in the yellow pages for
someone to help you out.
Right, you know, grab the phoneoff the wall and call somebody
and hopefully that person couldhelp.

(12:07):
Not anymore, all you need is aclick of a button.
So I share that with you, andI'm happy to share my childhood,
because I think my childhooddid play a huge part in this.
But here's what I'll tell you.
You know my childhood, I, I.
It sounds like a pity party,but it's not.
I'm actually extremely gratefulfor my back, for my childhood.

(12:29):
It wasn't always so.
I mean, I played the victimcard, like in my twenties and
thirties, and but now I'm justlike man.
What an amazing education thatI, that I had, right.
So my mom and biological fatherwere married in, I think, in
1971.
I mean, they were just kids,like they were 21 years old, and
then they had me four yearslater, in 75, and my dad left

(12:52):
shortly thereafter, notnecessarily on his own accord or
anything like that, but he leftbecause him and my mom just had
a really tough marriage andthey did not get along and they
were doing what everybody wasdoing they're like winging it,
they're like we'll figure it out, I guess, and they weren't
figuring it out.
And you know, I think thatthere was a lot of stress in the
relationship.
My father was in the military.
I think he saw a lot of thingsin the military.

(13:14):
My mom, you know, had her owntraumas to deal with.
They were moving all aroundbecause my dad was in the
military, so they were moving alot.
Then they had me and then thatwas it, you know, and then he
was out after that.
And the interesting thing is isthat my dad left and at that
moment in his life, you know,you could look at that on paper
and be like man, like the guy,like freaking, walked, like what
the hell.

(13:34):
My dad, though, in his mind, atthat point in his life, he
actually thought he was actuallydoing the most selfless thing,
because he actually thought thathe was making things worse by
being around and trying to, likeyou know, visit me on the
weekends.
And he's like man, I come topick you up and you just cry.
You didn't want to be around me.
You want to be around your momand like I literally thought,

(13:54):
like I was a kid, like Iliterally thought like, oh my
god, like I'm literally likewrecking my son's life by doing
this.
So my mom, right around the ageof four.
This is when I remember, likethe audio and the video, like
the camera being turned on inour mind, right memories.
I remember man brain being inpreschool and I remember dads
coming to pick up their kidsfrom school.
I knew what a dad was.

(14:15):
I knew I didn't have one, butit didn't really bother me, like
I didn't really care, like Ididn't have pity about it, I
just knew we didn't have one.
But in my mind, my mom Hasn'tfound our dad yet.
Like that's literally how Ithought mom's mom's got and find
dads at some point and shedidn't find ours yet.
She'll find them.
So I'm four years old, my mom'slike hey, this was like a Friday
or Saturday.

(14:35):
She's like, hey, I'm having afriend over for dinner tonight.
He's like a really specialfriend of mine and I work with
him and I've been talking to hima lot.
I'm gonna have more for dinnerand I want you to meet him.
That was her way of saying I'vebeen dating somebody I work
with, yep, and I was like, oh mygod, I heard the word him,
right.
So in my mind I was like, couldthat be the dad, right?
Is that the dad?
So this guy comes walking in myhouse and he's in a three-piece

(14:59):
suit.
He's a white collar datasoftware engineer trench coat,
double winds of tie, briefcase,handlebar Mustache, feathered
hair, total 1970s.
Look right, he comes walking in.
He shakes my hand.
He's like Larry, I'm Joe, it'snice to meet you.
And I shook his hand and I justremember, like looking up at
this guy and I first questioncame out is Are you gonna be my

(15:20):
dad?
Like literally just beamingright like I was like, oh my god
, she found the dad.
Wow, remember, like my mom, likeI think she like gasped, like
Like right, and he just likekind of like awkwardly laughed.
But they got married like sixmonths later, wow, and then they
were.
They were together until I was10.
So they were together aboutfive and a half years and one

(15:40):
thing I can tell you is itstarted off really cool.
I remember when he like movedin and I'm like, oh my gosh,
this is freaking, amazing man,like our family is complete.
This is awesome.
I have a dad, just like all myother friends do.
And then it just took a turnand every year they're after
that it just turned worse andworse and worse and worse
alcohol outbursts, beatings,emotional abuse, physical abuse,

(16:03):
like they would beat each otherup.
He would beat me up like I wasjust like.
It was chaos, man, absolutelychaos, and it was very surreal
to grow up like that.
And when I was 10 they gotdivorced and he left.
I'll never forget, like when hemoved out and left for good,
there was a part of me.
I was like, wow, this sucks,like I don't have a dad anymore.
But I'm also like superrelieved at the same time and

(16:24):
then I started asking my momlike wait a second.
Like this guy came around whenI was four and I knew about the
birds and the bees.
At this point I'm like wheredid I come from?
And my mom then laid it on me.
She's like I was actuallymarried before and I'm like what
?
She's like, yeah, you got a dadout there and I was like where
is he?
Like what's his name?
Like what does he do?
Like why don't we see him?
Like all these questions and mymom's like I don't know where

(16:46):
he is.
And fast forward two yearslater I won't get into it for
the sake of time but I met myfather and it was not on purpose
.
Hmm, he ended up living threemiles from us.
Wow, and that was surreal man.
He was remarried, had atwo-year-old son, another one on
the way, and my dad man, like Ijust ate it up.
Like I immediately startedcalling him dad.

(17:08):
I want to be around him all thetime.
He came to my little leaguegames.
Like we saw each other at leastonce a week and then after like
month five, it just sort of gotawkward and weird.
Yep, it was almost like he wasstressed and overwhelmed and I
didn't know what was going on.
And I remember being 12 andwent and I just hadn't heard
from him.
Wow, I picked up the phone offoff my wall, right, because the
12 that's that was our landlines.

(17:28):
I called him and I justremember asking like Is
something wrong?
Like if something I don't,something doesn't feel right to
me.
And John, I'll be honest, man,I don't remember what was said
on that call, I just rememberthe outcome and I don't think I
was too nice on that call either.
After I, after where ourconversation was going, and then

(17:49):
we split after that, so he wasgone again and at that point my
life is a 12 year old.
I felt very angry and likeabandoned.
You know, again I'm like thisreally sucks.
And I was made fun of a lot tooin school, like, uh, you're,
you're, you don't have a daddyand all this other stuff, but
your mom is dating, she'ssleeping around, all this stuff.

(18:10):
It was I was hard dude and Ifailed the eighth grade.
I actually just I was like I'mnot doing homework anymore.
Not, I'm not studying for Idon't care.
Like that was.
I think that was my way of justlike rebelling, you know, and I
had to do eighth grade twiceand that was a huge turning
point for me doing that eighthgrade year twice.
My mom continued to date andshe got married one more time.

(18:31):
And, uh, but all these guysthat she dated, who lived with
us and married, they were thesame dude, yep, just abusers,
hardiers, all this stuff.
So then went on to college,graduated college, got a great
career, highly lucrative careermedical device sales right out
of college and married my wifeJessica.

(18:51):
We're off to the races, youknow.
We get pregnant.
You know, right around the timeI'm 30, things are just humming
right and I'm in a coffee shopwhen I'm 30.
This is 18 years ago and I'mthere with with people I work
with, were there for a meeting,and one of the women that worked
with me was also one of myreally good friends and she knew

(19:11):
this story.
So I'm sitting there drinkingcoffee, having this meeting, and
I just like look up because Guywalks in the in the coffee shop
.
I look over and I was likethat's my dad.
Wow, I hadn't seen him since Iwas 12.
That's crazy.
I knew exactly who he was.
Yeah, I knew exactly who he waslike.

(19:31):
He just looked a little olderand Little rounder.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
That's it, you know, but same same look, you know how
all of us get little littlelittle rounder.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
Little rounder.
Yeah, and I remember the girlthat I was friends with, who's
also my co-worker.
She's like Hello, are you here?
You look like you're seeing aghost and I'm like, yeah, I was
like sorry.
I was like uh, you're not gonnabelieve this.
I was like I was like my dadjust walked in here and she's
like what?

(20:02):
Wow and I was like he's rightover there, like 50 feet for me,
a few tables over, and she'slike, oh my god, what are you
gonna do?
And I was like, and she'd youtell she was so excited.
And I was like Nothing, nothing.
And she's like what?
She's like you haven't seenyour dad in 18 years.
You gonna let him walk out ofhere.
I was like, yeah, that's theplan.

(20:23):
I don't have anything.
I have no desire to talk to him.
Um, again, it's gonna be superawkward.
And without one word man, shejust gets up from the table,
walks right over to his tableand sits down and I'm like what
is she doing?
What is about to happen?
And then, before I knew it, myI mean dude, my brain went to
scrabble the eggs and before Iknew it, I could read his lips

(20:46):
and he was like where is he?
And he started like scanningthe room and all of a sudden,
like our eyes locked and I'mlike what?
What is about to happen here?
And he stood up very humbly,kind of like, took this deep
breath.
He just walked over me veryhumbly and he extended his hand.
He's like hey, man, like how,how are you?
And I'm like Fine, how?

Speaker 2 (21:08):
are you?

Speaker 1 (21:09):
like I was.
I wasn't a total jerk, but Iwasn't nice and Anyway, that
interaction turned into abreakfast.
That breakfast turned into whatis now a relationship.
And one thing I can tell you isthat I have very little
interest in holding any grudgesagainst my dad.
I don't hold a grudge againstmy dad and I definitely wasn't

(21:30):
perfect in our relationshipeither.
Growing up and we have, we have.
We've buried the past and allwe're focused on is how great
the future can be.
I have two younger halfbrothers.
He's still married to the samewoman, has been for 45 years,
wow, and things are good.
That was my background.
And then I think thatcatapulted me into that edge.

(21:51):
But that edge actually gotstarted.
I'm happy to talk about it ifyou want, but that edge really
got started with a super darkmoment.
Yeah, that happened six yearslater.

Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah, so, so you so yeah, so let's, so, let's paint
the picture so that we can getinto it.
Because when I'm reallyimpressed by so often not you
know a couple things by yourpodcast, the first is how you're
able to get people to open up,and it's very obvious now,
sitting here with you, what howthat is is that you extend
vulnerability and people offerit back.
I'm ready to tell you my wholelife story after hearing that.

(22:20):
Thank you for that.
And I'm also married to Jessicayeah.
I'm also a married to Jessica.
Yeah.
So, who I met it.
She was 16 years old when I mether, though.
So, yeah, we're high schoolsweetheart, so, um, but but all
this to say, yeah, it soundslike you.
You did not have modeled foryou the type of parenting that
you are now exhibiting as anadult.

(22:42):
And one of the kind of my foundfoundational concepts is that
the two primary ways that humanslearn number one we learn by
what's modeled.
We repeat, we enact, we mirrorwhat is modeled to us and sounds
like that's not how the datagot started.
And then the second way is isthat we learn from our mistakes,
and and you're about to talkabout a dark moment Does that am

(23:06):
I?
Am I kind of connecting thedots here for you?

Speaker 1 (23:09):
You are, um, but I, I want to give, like, I want to
give credit where credit is due.
And you know, did I have, youknow, really toxic father
figures growing up?
Sure, right, I did, but youknow what?
It was a great lesson, like I Imean, for a long time I really,
really didn't like the factthat I had these really toxic

(23:32):
men coming in out of my life andmy mom's life.
I look back on it now and I'mlike what an incredible
experience, what an incredibleeducation, because I think as
human beings you're right welearn from good examples and we
also get to get the opportunityand I stress the word
opportunity to learn fromexamples that aren't the best.
Yep, but here's what I'll tellyou.

(23:53):
I did have a good example andhe was my grandfather.
Hmm, my grandfather lived onemile from our house and I think
my grandfather here's the cool,my grandfather man.
It almost makes me emotionaltalking about him because I,
like, loved that man still dueto this day, even though he
passed away, you know, 25 yearsago.

(24:13):
But my grandfather was one ofthose people.
He was a man's man.
He was a blue collar truckdriver, his hands were rough
right.
He did a lot of physical labor.
He was always working, and whatI mean always working?
He pulled his weight around thehouse.
My grandfather was not the guythat, like, put his feet up and
expected everybody to do stufffor him.

(24:34):
Sure, my grandfather was anactive participant in his family
and was the shining example ofhard work.
You always saw him out in theyard.
You always saw him cuttinggrass.
You always saw saw him cookingdinner, doing dishes.
That was my grandpa.
He was a workhorse.
I loved seeing that example.
The other thing, too, is mygrandfather just had this
incredible charisma about himand it wasn't fake.

(24:55):
It was so genuine, like youcould actually feel how much he
was curious about you and wantedto hear about you.
When he walked into a room,people, man, they just like lit
up.
They're like there's Roy, Ilove Roy.
I had never once heard one badthing about my grandfather once
from one person in my entirelife.
If anything, they're like dude,your grandfather was the best.
But here's what my grandfathertaught me.

(25:16):
My grandfather never actuallysaid out loud I'm going to step
up and I'm going to be a hugepart of your life and I'm going
to teach you how to be a youngman.
He just did it.
And wherever my grandpa went, Iwent.
I was like his shadow.
I helped him in the yard.
I just I didn't care what hewas doing, I just wanted to be
around him.
I spent a ton of time overthere.

(25:36):
My grandfather was good at onething in particular a lot of
things, but one thing inparticular.
That man showed me what itlooked like to love a wife.
Right, he loved my grandmotherand he was not shy to show it.
Like we would be sitting thereat breakfast.
You could just feel the love atthat table.
He would reach over everychance he got.

(25:58):
He'd grab my grandmother's hand, he'd pat her and he'd look at
her and be like kind of likegive her a wink.
He'd be like I love you.
You know that.
Right, you were the mostbeautiful thing I have ever seen
.
My grandmother like just gotout of bed.
She's like in a robe drinkingher coffee, no makeup on, and he
was just like I just love you,you are the best.
And he'd kiss her and he'd hugher and like, and I remember

(26:21):
feeling it, that thatenvironment as a kid, and I felt
so safe being there.
I loved being there and what Ican tell you is that's the way I
love my Jessica.
Yeah, I'm not perfect, but thatis what I'm.
I'm always like what would mygrandpa do?
Right?
And I'm always like, like it'sfunny with my boys, man, Like
I'm very purposeful andintentional about and I'll look

(26:41):
at Jessica and I'll be like boysand I'll be like you know what?
And they'd be like we know.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
But, uh, but here's what I'll tell you.
The dark moment, right, yeah,um, the dark moment that
happened.
What I'm?
I'm?
I'm so ashamed of this becauseI made three promises to myself
as when I got married.
Number one I'll be married onetime.
I just want to be married oncebecause I remember, is revolving
door of men constantly Right.
Oh my God, ethan, I'm sittinghere recording this.

(27:17):
I have my oldest son out here.
He's laughing in a text messagejust popped up as a recording.
He's like yes, I know you lovemom, we all know you love mom.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
I can go right from in here, so that's great.

Speaker 1 (27:29):
You thought I loved you, man.
Oh my God, that's hilarious.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
We have one of those in our family too.
It's, it's do.
I asked my kids.
So it's with my kids, it's notwith my, it's not with my wife.
I got to start doing this withmy wife too, but with my kids.
I go hey, guess what?
And they know that I'm going toreply I love you.
And so my little ones, my threeyear old, my two year old,
they're like, they're totallylike.
They're still the age wherethey just like what Every time?

Speaker 1 (27:52):
and I can get my seven year olds like stop it dad
.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
Every immediately, like as soon as that happens.
So I'm, I'm right with you,ethan, where I know he probably
can't hear me, but, ethan, I'm,I'm, I'm there, I got you Ethan,
he understands.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
That's what he said.
He's laughing out there, loveit, Um.
But yeah, man, I I actuallytake that like it's funny, like
with your, your kids, right.
I took that as a compliment andbe like, yeah, I know it's
annoying, I'm going to keepdoing it Totally, totally, and
in the back of my mind I don'tsay this to them, but I'm like
you will really appreciate thisover, when you're older and not

(28:29):
right now, and that's okay, andI'm okay with you giving me all
the grief you want, but like I'mjust going to do this or keep
doing this, and the more youantagonize me and more of my, do
it comes in trends Like right,so like when you were saying
like the videotape, you, youstart remembering your childhood
at a certain point.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
That's when, when memories become extrinsic, we
can really, like identify them.
This is what happened, and soyou have that dissonance in your
past where you have this iswhat love looked like, this is
what toxic relationships lookedlike, and.
But you have that extrinsicmemory, but you also have the
intrinsic, which is like youjust know what it feels like to
be around people who love, and Ifeel like that's.

(29:04):
I feel like that's what I'mtrying to do, right, I'm just
trying to build that intrinsic,not even the extrinsic that
they'll remember that thishappened, just that, although
they will, as Ethan justdemonstrated for us.
Of course they will remember,but but, just the intrinsic of
like man.
I just remember like beingaround people who loved me and I
remember being around peoplewho love my mom and I feel like

(29:27):
that's really, really important.
So I love that.

Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah.
So your dark moment.
You said three things you'reashamed of.
The first one was that you weregoing to be married once.
What was the next one?

Speaker 1 (29:36):
Yeah.
So the first, first, yeah,first promise was I'll be
married once, yep.
Second promise is I, I'm goingto be a good dad.
Yep, Cause I, cause I know whatit's like to not have a good
dad.
Right.
And then the third one is I'mnever going to hit my children
out of anger.
I broke two out of three causeI'm still married, but here's

(29:59):
what I'll tell you.
So, like I wasn't the bestfather, like here's the thing, I
wasn't a bad father, okay, butI wasn't a good one.
I was like literally stuck inthat middle road of, I would
just say, limbo and likeexisting Sure, right, I was
there, but I didn't.
Here's a perfect example.
You're a football game.
I wasn't on the field playinglike an all star, but I wasn't

(30:23):
in the in the bleachers either.
I wasn't in in the in theaudience, I wasn't the crowd.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
I was on the bench.
You're coasting on that pine,that's right.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
That's why.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
I lived my athletic career, my man yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
It's so funny you say that is, um, my boys uh, few of
them are wrestlers and Iwrestled growing up and like
they.
It's funny, like they kind oflike view you as a dad, like, oh
, you probably, like, probablyjust dominate.
No, I was like uh, I know theceilings of more gymnasiums in

(30:54):
our area than you can possiblyask Cause?

Speaker 2 (30:57):
I spent most of my time in my wrestling on my back
my first year Right.
Um, I feel like that's that's athat's a form of experience too
, though.
Oh yeah, you know, I I gotrecruited to play volleyball um
at the collegiate level and andI I was on scholarship, like the
whole thing.
And like a week before theseason started, I was going to
be competing for the startingspot on this team that I was on.

(31:18):
The week before the seasonstarted, this total party kid
from from another school who wasfriends with like the best
player on our team from highschool.
He decided, like I'll, I'lllike, I'll like stop drinking
during season or I'll just drinkless during season and I'll
come to this like po dunk schooland I'll just like play.
And he was my position, myfriend, I never, never saw the

(31:43):
court.
This kid showed up five daysbefore the first match and I
never, just I watched.
I watched a lot of volleyballand I served a couple of times,
but that was it.
And I think that's a formativeexperience, right, fit, like,
like that's a good thing, butokay, but we're off track, so
okay.
So tell me.
So you said that, these, thesetwo things, you promised
yourself you'd be a good dad,but you also promised yourself

(32:05):
that you would never hit yourkids out of anger.
And I want to hear about I wantto hear about it.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
Yeah.
So, uh, again, I was a medicaldevice sales and I'll give some
context, just because and Ishare this context, not because
it's an excuse to to behavebadly, it's just.
I think it's.
It's a walk in every, everyman's life.
Whenever we lose our patientsget angry, we get triggered.
Very rarely does it haveanything to do, very little to

(32:30):
do with what just happened infront of you.
It usually has to do with the10 things, 20 things, that
happened right before that Yep.
So, um, at this point in my life, I'm our, you know, six years
into being a dad.
My oldest, Ethan, who was justin the other room, he's six.
His younger brother, Mason,who's now pushing 200 pounds.
I wouldn't mess with him now.
Oh my God, he would absolutelydecimate me.

(32:50):
He's the center on thisfootball team and he hits the
hardest of any player.
So I I don't mess with him, buthe was four and that day, uh,
and there's a lot of things thatled up to this event, Like I
was already frustrated with meand Jessica's relationship, and
I was frustrated not with her,but because I was just like, God
bless, I don't know what to doand I kept felt like I felt.

(33:10):
I felt like I kept falling onmy face.
Man.
I just could not communicatewith her, like I wasn't getting
the connection I wanted with her.
I wasn't getting the sex that Iwanted with her.
I wasn't like all these thingsthat I wanted.
I was just like I don't knowhow to do this.
And she was getting frustratedtoo.
Sure, it was like she wasspeaking French and I was
speaking Chinese.
That's what the relationshipkind of felt like and we're

(33:31):
trying to navigate that.
And so I was frustrated there.
And then I was also the soleprovider and I still am and so I
felt like that tremendouspressure you know, to provide
right I'm, I'm the one payingthe bills here.
Like holy crap, when you're ayoung dad man, that's stressful.
And that day I lost my biggestcustomer in my territory and I

(33:52):
was and it made up like 40% ofmy territory revenue, like gross
revenue that I was paid apercentage on.
And I was like, oh my gosh,like number one, I'm going to
get fired.
I just lost my biggest customerto my competitor, like how do I
explain that to my boss?
Number two, even if I keep myjob, like my income is severely
impacted.
And now I'm sitting therethinking like, oh my God, I

(34:13):
might be out of a job, and thenwe're getting ready to move on
top of it.
So I'm like, oh my God, I mightbe jobless or it's going to
impact my income.
Can we buy this next house?
And I'm packing up all the boysplayroom that night and I'm just
pissed out of my mind.
Hadn't really told Jessica tobuy it yet.
I was trying to figure out likehow to lay that one on her and
I'm like packing up all theirstuff, like their toys, in their

(34:34):
playroom.
I'm just pissed.
And then I spent like three anda half hours packing up that
playroom and then all of asudden, little four year old
Mason comes down and he's likehey dad, and I'm like, and I'm
like I'm going to go take abreak.
I was like I just packed up allthese toys.
I was like there's still sometoys out here.
You can play with these.
Please don't want to unpackanything.
And he's like Okay, and I lookback on that and every time I

(34:54):
tell this story I probably toldit a thousand times I'm like
what?
Like, what were you thinking,man?
Like, come on, like, what is afour year old going to do?
Right?
So I come back downstairs like30 minutes later he's got so
much crap pulled out, likeeverything.
I just and I just reacted and Iwas like dude, I told you not
to do that.
And I turn them around and Ismack them on his butt, spank

(35:14):
them and as soon as I like woundup, I like, I'm like I don't
want to die, I don't want to doit.
It was almost like it happenedin slow motion.
I don't want to do this, butit's reactive, it's almost like
I saw myself do it.
And here's the that's not theworst part.
Like I'm not here to arguewhether the spanking is right or
wrong, because there are peopleout there who believe what they
believe.
I just didn't want to do it.
But when I hit him, he lost hisfooting and he fell.

(35:37):
And to see my four year oldtopple over because of me, I was
like oh my God, what did I justdo?
And then I was just.
I immediately got my composureand I went to go.
This is the worst part.
I went to go help him up and heturns over and he sees me with
my hands out like oh my God, I'mso sorry.
And he literally was like don't, don't know.

(35:58):
And I was like this absolutefear I can never erase that out
of my mind as long as I live.
And I went to pick him up andhe's crying and I'm like, and
that's when I think I would justlike literally hit rock bottom.
And I was like that's it, I'mdone, man, I'm done doing this

(36:20):
guesswork.
And I went into my officecrying and I started just
thinking and I was like I suckat this, I suck at this and I
don't wanna suck at this.
And I really just startedlooking at other areas of my
life.
Like I got a four year degreein sports medicine with a minor
in nutrition.
I can tell you everythingthere's to know about the body,
about exercise, nutrition, thewhole nine yards.

(36:41):
But why is that?
It's cause I learned it Samething with my job.
I was actually even though Ilost my number one customer.
I was a performer and I was anexecutor.
I did very well in my salescareer.
But it was also cause I wastrained in it.
At that point in my life I wasin my about my 10th year of
martial arts and I loved it.
I'm like, and I was decent atit.
I was like why am I good atmartial arts?

(37:02):
I have a coach, I have acommunity.
I have a curriculum, like Ihave these things that I'm I
don't guess, I know what to doand I was like what have I done
to be a better dad?
What have I done to be a betterhusband?

Speaker 2 (37:15):
Nothing zero zilch.

Speaker 1 (37:18):
And I was like, well, do the same rules apply?
And then I was like, I don'tknow, let me go see.
And that has been my 12 yearjourney now is do the same rules
apply?
And turns out they do.
So if you, if you learn thesethings, if you learn the skills
to be a better father and abetter husband, the tactical
things that we can do you canactually execute a plan pretty

(37:40):
darn well, Versus trying to justblindly guess which, by the way
, the last thing I'll say isguessing sucks.
It's very frustrating.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
Well, and I think that I think that's you know,
that's a transformative story.
Thank you for sharing that.
You know, and you know, as faras our podcast, my podcast is
concerned, I'm a huge advocatefor essentially punishment, free
parenting, right, which justlooks at, hey, there's a better
way to discipline kids thanpunitive measures, and so I, you

(38:10):
know it alienates peoplesometimes, but I'm a very strong
like, no, no corporalpunishment in any context type
of parent and parent educator.
But I also appreciate that veryfew people that I have worked
with go into that and they'remuch more like how you
experienced it, which is this isa moment when I lost control.

(38:32):
It was not a calculated whenit's a calculated thing and it's
, you know, grounded in somesort of religious hierarchy or
something where they say I haveto do this in this way.
That's actually something thatis really hard to contend with
for me.
And then, like you said, itcomes with education and then it
becomes competing experts,right, so I can bring you all

(38:54):
the psychological data relatedto hitting kids.
But if you're gonna bring me,you know, hey, well, my
religious teacher told me that Ihave to.
That's really hard to arguewith.
But in most cases, what I'vefound is that parents who get to
that point they're just likeyou They've lost their grip on
reality for a moment, they'velost their ability to

(39:16):
self-regulate, they've lost allthe stuff.
And, like you said, it's notthat moment, it's the things
that happened before, and I'lleven say also the things that
happened 20 years ago.
Right, it's almost never, justthe 10 minutes before.
It's also.
Well, I don't know how to copewith disappointment, because
that was never taught to me.
That's my struggle, like I don'tknow how to cope with

(39:38):
disappointment, and so whendisappointing things happen, I'm
like man, I don't have theresources and skills to do this,
and so I feel like a lot ofwhat you've just identified for
us and offered to us is thejourney for so many men is that
they wanna do better.
They may even begin to do theresearch, if they're following

(39:58):
my account, to know how to dobetter, but yet in those moments
, they still lose it, they stillget overwhelmed, they still get
burned out, they still getstress exterior to them, the
marriage is on the rocks,whatever, and then the kids wind
up just being the ones who takethe brunt of that for whatever
reason.

(40:18):
And so I'm interested to hearthis also as a dad, how has that
shaped the way that you viewyourself as a man?
Because before you've kind ofidentified these three rules
that you had, and when you startto break your own rules, when
you start to violate your ownvalues, that can be a really
transformative moment for somany people.

(40:39):
But what about on the otherside?
What are some things as a dadthat has just really shaped your
way of understanding yourselfin the world in a positive way?

Speaker 1 (40:53):
I don't know if I've ever heard that question, which
is an incredible question.
It's tricky, it is, so I wantto make sure that I answer it
correctly.
So can you restate the questionjust again so I can really wrap
my arms around it.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
Yeah.
So what, if anything in theexperience of being a dad has
made you rethink in a positivelight what it means to be a man,
so raising boys I think anotherway to state this question
maybe is the way that I thinkabout it at least is to say so

(41:33):
much of my parenting paradigmwas built on getting my kids to
16, getting them to 18, gettingthem to 22.
And well, if I get my kid intoa good college, then they'll be
successful.
If I get my kid into their goodfirst job, then they'll be
successful.
But when I actually startedthinking about the long-term

(41:54):
outcomes of parenting, which arevery rarely, I think about
probably one of the greatestparenting educators, if not the
greatest parenting educator ofall time, mr Rogers and you look
at Mr Rogers' family and hiskids had a rough time.
I don't know if you know a lotof his story.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
But his kids.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
he raised two boys, Just like I'm raising three,
you're raising four.
So he raised two boys andthrough their college years they
were just like.
The New York Times is writingarticles about how these kids
are, just especially his, Ithink his oldest.
It's just like a party animal.
They're getting arrested forstuff, they're wrecking cars,

(42:34):
and he's just like.
I'm interested in who my kidsare going to be when they're 30
and 40 and 50, not necessarilyhow they're going to rebel when
they're 16 and 18.
And so I think it shapes how weare as men when we think in
those terms.
But in that way, how is being adad and looking at the outcome

(42:55):
of fathering and fatherhoodshaped?
How you act, behave as a man,not just in the negative I'm
doing these things and I don'tlike them but in the positive
hey, I see that this stuffreally works and this is the
type of person that I want to be.

Speaker 1 (43:11):
That is such a good question, because usually the
question that I get is it'susually vice versa how is being
a better man helped you withbeing a father?
So I love this question andhere's what I'll tell you.
I think we could actuallyanswer this question several
different ways.
So being a dad has by far beenthe best and hardest lessons on

(43:39):
life, and I'll share with youwhy.
If I really look at what it'slike to, if I want to be a
better husband and father, Ineed to be a better man.
I honestly think that needs tobe the base.
I can't be a better dad withoutfirst trying to be a better man
.
I can't be a better husbandwithout first being a better man

(44:02):
.
But the question that youreally rose up here was well,
how do we flip that script andhow does the dad and the husband
thing actually help us as men?
So I'll share with you this asa man, there's a resilience
factor, and as a dad, there's aresilience factor, right, if you

(44:23):
ever really wanna crash courseon resiliency, patience, empathy
, grace, creating an environmentof psychological safety where
not only your kids or your wifeare gonna tell you anything
that's on their mind, but alsopeople in general and people in
your friendship circle andrelationships that you have.
Go be a dad, go be a husband,right.

(44:46):
So like and here's what I'lltell you I truly view myself as
a father to my children, right,and in a lot of cases, like I
have to, depending on the ageright.
Right now, I have two basicallyalmost adults, and then I have
two little kids.
So when I have my 10 and eightyear old, there are times where

(45:09):
I gotta pull the dad card right.
I'm like, hey, this is whatwe're doing right and this is
why and you stepped out of line.
So there's gonna be someconsequences and discipline and
all that.
What I've noticed with myteenagers because I raised them
virtually the same.
My house is not an easy house,let me get that straight.
It's not an easy house Like.

(45:29):
There's, no, there's verylittle coddling here.
There's very little like.
Let me just tell you, like youknow, there are hard lessons
that these boys learn right, butthe way that I view my older
kids is that I'm a guide, Right,and I'm a trusted advisor that
they can bounce things off ofright.
I'll give you a great example.

(45:49):
So last night, my son isliterally 32 days from being 18
years old and he, he's like wetalked about it last night he's
like I'm a month from being anadult and I can make my own
decisions.
I was like, to some degree, tosome degree from the law you can

(46:12):
, but when you, you still have.
You're in your junior year ofhigh school, you still have
another year here year and ahalf and there are rules,
whether you're an adult or not,that you have to follow to live
here, right?
So what I'll tell you is isthere are going to be rules,
still right, if you're livinghere, there's still gonna be a
curfew, whether you like it ornot.
You can, when you move out, youcan come home whenever you want

(46:35):
, but here, you know, there's a,there's a time when you have to
be home.
However, here's what I willtell you.
There's no topic that's off thetable for discussion.
So if you want something or ifyou have a request, bring it up,
we'll talk about it.
I'll give you an example, right,my last night he was just like

(46:57):
I want a motorcycle.
And I was like first of all, ifyou want a motorcycle, I will
never help you buy that.
Second of all, if you're livingunder my roof, you're not gonna
have a motorcycle period, and Iwas like, even if one of your
friends who came from a brokenhome was staying in our house,
that would be a rule, right?
No motorcycle, and.
But he really wants a tattoo.

(47:18):
Right now.
He's like die hard on a tattoo.
I was like you know what,you're gonna be 18.
So have a conversation.
You can get a tattoo.
Like that's.
That's a conversation.
I was like, but here's what I'llshare with you.
Before he just run out and geta tattoo, what would it look
like for us to talk about?
You know certain things thatyou might not be aware of.

(47:39):
And he's like like what I waslike?
Well, I was like, for instance,once you choose a tattoo, think
of it this way when I'm 50years old, is this still
meaningful to me?
Am I still proud to have it?
Right?
And like and the other thing,too, is where you put it on your
body.
I was like that is a huge one aswell.
I was like cause he wants oneon his forearm.

(48:00):
I was like you have tounderstand that.
You know you're gonna bewearing short sleeved shirts,
right, and if you want to dothat, that's fine, but also
think through.
I can't really hide this.
It's gonna be out in the openand do I want other people
seeing it?
Maybe I'm in a professionalsetting, maybe I'm dating a girl
and I don't want her dad to seeit.

(48:21):
You know right away cause Idon't want him to get the wrong
impression of me All thesedifferent things that, whether
they're true or not, you don'thave.
You need to have somebody tobounce those things off of and
to be on the lookout with you.
So if you want a tattoo, that'sfine, but let's have a
conversation around.
You know what that looks likefor you and your ideal tattoo
and the ideal place that youwant on it, versus just running

(48:42):
out and getting it cause youthink it looks cool right now
I'm pretty sure he wants to getthe dad edge logo like tattoo
right here big so that he cansee it.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
You know, I think that that's so helpful and this
is something I write about inthe book is the concept of
boundaries and how you, you haveto have boundaries for kids.
It's how they're secure, it'show they're safe, like you can't
, like there's there is this?
The reason why I never use theterm gentle parenting and
related to my account is becausethere's no definition for it.

(49:15):
And so, even if I'm practicingpsychologically healthy
parenting and, you know,affective parenting, I don't do
a lot of coddling either, butI'm absolutely emotionally
responsive and, you know, Ivalidate experiences even when I
don't understand them.
And so all of those things likethere are still boundaries, and
one of the things that Istruggle with is that so many

(49:36):
parenting educators are you know, I shouldn't even call them
educators just random people who, like this is how I parent my
kids, you know, like, get readyfor the day with us.
This seems like there's noboundaries whatsoever.
There's no, there's no guides,there's no rails, right, it's
like there's no bumpers, and so,you know, I think that that's
massively important, but alsohaving the respect for your kids
that those boundaries willchange and that you know, I

(50:01):
think that the struggle oftenthat I've found in working with
teenagers is that I know a lotof teenagers who are raised in
highly structured homes, veryreligious, whatever, and what
will happen is they'll be goingalong their life and everything.
They'll have no freedom, and at12, there's no freedom.
And at 16, you know, the doorgets taken off and then the

(50:23):
phone gets taken away and I'mnot saying like, in a short term
, hey, we're not using thiseffectively or we're using this
in an inappropriate way and weneed to reset.
I'm saying like you aren'tallowed to have any
relationships with people of theopposite gender.
You're not allowed to, you know, go on dates in any capacity.
It's like, and these parents,they build up these massive

(50:44):
structures because they deeply,deeply distrust their kids, and
then they turn 18 and they dropthem, whether they go to college
or whatever.
The kid moves out, and thenit's like breaking homage.
These kids just and I hate tosay it, I hate to say it, but
like these kids are the ones whowind up being predatory because

(51:06):
their whole lives they've neverbeen trusted to set effective
boundaries and so they have intheir head like, oh yeah, deep
down inside.
And I've had theseconversations with 18 year old
men where I'm talking to themand they're like oh yeah, I know
that I can't be out with a girlwithout somebody else there,
because I'll just take advantageof her.
And I'm like, who taught youthat?

(51:28):
Who explained, you know, isthat that's not the home that
you came up?
And I know your parents that'snot.
I guess I don't sometimes, butthat's not their relationship.
It's like, well, but that's thestory I've been told about
myself and so you know, I thinkthat that's such a beautiful
thing of having those hard andfast rules.
For us it's actually playingtackle football, and that's just

(51:48):
because of my own past trauma.
I have a friend who had CTE andcommitted suicide and so
because of that, yeah, yeah, 23or 24 years old, and so because
of that, you know, for me, andit was like trauma that happened
seventh and eighth grade, andso because of that, that's a
hard rule for me.
But it's not to say that that'sI look down on people who let

(52:11):
their kids play football in anyway.
Just, I just know that I couldnever feel safe and my kids
might come back and say, but Ireally wanna do this, and that
would probably be a conversation, but ultimately it may still
come down to, but for me this isjust a non-starter.
I'll do anything else.
I'll buy you all your hockeygear and get up at five in the
morning, we'll go play hockey,but it's not about you know, I'm

(52:34):
afraid of physical sports.
It's in this one place until Ifeel confident that there are
safety measures in place.
I also, my dad, ran a sportsequipment company when I was
growing up, and so I watched thehelmet tests and I knew how not
good they really were unlessthose helmets were perfectly
fitted, and so how ineffectivethe helmets were when they

(52:56):
weren't just absolutely perfect.
And so because of that, I just Ihave that boundary, and I think
a lot of parents you know.
Riding a bike without a helmetis another one.
For me, that's just a boundary,man, like we're never doing
that in my house, like you'renever getting out there and
getting on your bike without it.
Now, if you wear a helmet, I'lllet you ride in the rain, I'll

(53:17):
let you ride across the street.
Once you've demonstrated someaptitude for being able to know
when cars are coming andcrossing at crosswalks, I'll let
you do all of this stuff.
But it's gonna be with a helmetand I feel like that.
What you're describing is thatbut for teenagers, and so to
hear that is really, reallyhelpful.
To just know that that's acontinuing process, even with an

(53:39):
18 year old, yeah, so it'sunreal man.
Yeah, and I imagine that youknow you're saying this stuff
from you probably never thoughtyou'd be on a podcast talking
about how to raise an 18, soonto be 31 days, 32 days away from
being an 18 year old.
So you know that's anotheraspect.
But going back to when yourkids were little, so I imagine

(54:02):
that there's been a lot ofdeconstruction, masculinity
we're talking about raising boys.
What's one old school rule thatwe were raised with or that you
were raised with about boysthat you would love to see?
Like if we just as a culture,put that to bed, like we don't
say that anymore, we don't abideby that anymore.
We're done raising boys whobelieve, or we're done saying to

(54:24):
our boys as they're growing upXYZ, what would that be?
Man, you really want me to geton a soapbox?
Huh, I'm trying, man.
I'm trying to push you up there.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
Yeah.
So the question was what aresome old school things that we
have to do away with raisingyoung men, right?
So here's what I'll tell you.
There's a time for tough love,right.
There's a time for suck it up,buttercup, but it is like 1% of

(54:54):
the time in my opinion.
Like.
So, for instance, my stepfather, the one that my mom was with
from time I was four to six, Icouldn't cry Like he was, like
only babies cry.
Wipe your damn tears off yourface, man up.
That's what I was told, right,and that's what a lot of young
men are told.

(55:15):
Now here's what I'll tell you.
You can raise a physically andmentally and emotionally
resilient young man by not doingthose things.
And let me share with you somethings that I've learned, and
I've had to actually I've had tolearn them the hard way, right,
if you really want to frustratea man, right, if you really

(55:36):
want to anger a man, then robhim of the opportunity to learn
emotional IQ.
Yep, because nothing willfrustrate a man more than he's
pissed off and he doesn'tunderstand why.
Like, are you upset?
Like, how many times have youseen grown men, including myself
?
Why are you so angry?
I don't know.
I'm just pissed at what thishappened.

(55:59):
Why did that piss you off?
I don't know, it just did right.
So, when you can take a smallhuman being, right, well, boy or
girl, but we're talking aboutboys and you can teach them what
an emotion is and, I'm sorry tosay, like, whether you're
raising boys or not, young menor not, emotions are human, yep,
and emotions are part of thehuman experience.

(56:21):
Sadness, overwhelm, exhaustion,depression, anxiety, right,
anger, fear these are humanemotions and it's part of our
human experience.
The more you try to push thosethings down and not feel them,
the more someone wants to notfeel those things because they

(56:42):
don't think it's normal or theythink it's weak.
And then they want to drink itaway, smoke it away, watch porn
or whatever they're doing right.
So like when you do that.
But when you teach a young manhow you feel, tell me what's
going on and they share with youwhat's going on and you can
help that young man, label whathe might be, what he might be

(57:05):
feeling.
I do this all the time.
So with my boys, if my son comeshome, perfect example One of my
boys, my oldest, just gotfriendzoned by a girl that he
really liked rough.
He was devastated.
Yeah, he was.
He took her out on a day, someValentine's Day, took her out on

(57:27):
a date and then after the dateshe was like we're gonna be
friends and my son was upset.
He was very upset and there's apart of me as a dad now that
I've.
You know, I'm years ahead ofhim.
I'm like I'm like, dude, don'tworry about it, man.
Like come on, like there are somany fish in the sea, like
you'll find another one, it'snot that big of a deal, no, no,

(57:50):
no, no.
I remember what it was like tobe friendzone.
It's soft.
And when he came home I was likeoh, dude, that sounds
overwhelming.
Man, that's that sounds like,that sounds hurtful.
Right and man to man.
Those words don't usually cometo the surface and when I, when

(58:11):
I, when I say those things, hecan validate yes or no.
That's what I'm feeling.
And when you validate somebodyelse's emotion, you're actually
teaching them.
You're actually me hogging themright, if you know that term
right.
You're actually he's teachingDaniel Son how to wax the cars
and all that.
He's actually teaching him howto fight.
You're actually teaching that,that young man, how to identify

(58:31):
that emotion and then what to dowith it.
Yep, so like, for instance,when I'm like, oh, dude, that
sounds heartbreaking, thatsounds overwhelming, that sounds
hurtful.
He's like yeah, it is.
And I'm like, of course it isLike what?
Why wouldn't it be Normalizingit, not only labeling it, but
then normalizing it?
Because a lot of times when wefeel hurt or we feel upset, we

(58:54):
don't feel like it's normal.
We literally feel like I'm theonly one that probably feels
this way and I'm weak because Ifeel it and as soon as we say,
man, I remember that feeling andI remember how bad it hurt dude
, I really do, and Anybody whogets friendzoned with anyone
that they like that hurts and itsucks and it's thousand percent

(59:19):
normal to be upset about it.
Yep, and To explore, like thosefeelings.
Once you normalize that, andthen he can be like, yeah, I do
feel hurt, yeah, I do feeloverwhelmed, yeah, but the
coolest, I've done that with allthe boys their whole life.
Well, here's what I can tellyou I love the fact that I can
have a conversation with my kids, with my young, my young boys,

(59:40):
my 16, my 18 year old, and theywill actually tell me, like I
couldn't do this as a teenager,but they can.
Like, dad, I'm really angrytoday.
Hmm, I call it, tell me about it, what's going on, and you, and
anger is a secondary emotion.
And I even tell them this like,well, anger is a secondary
emotion based on usually aprimary, but like so why are you
angry?
Let's talk about that andthey'll tell me, you know, and

(01:00:02):
I'll say so, you're angryBecause you're actually perhaps
fearful or disappointed.
Yeah, that's it.
Disappointed, right, or sad,right, or something like that.
Yeah, and it's really helpingthem connect the dots with what
they're feeling.
When you can do that, you'reactually raising a young man who
is a motion, who has highemotional IQ, that has higher

(01:00:25):
emotional resiliency.
It's probably less likely toget into drugs, alcohol,
something to bury that feeling.
Yep, because they know how toface it head on by giving them
those tools.
So, like in my house, if youwant to cry, cry I mean Real.
If you want to be mad, be mad.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
Men feel feelings and , and I feel like this, I feel
like this you know, everythingthat you're saying here is
really reminiscent of MarkBrackett at Yale Center for
emotional intelligence.
He has this, this acronym ruler, that's.
You know, you recognize, youunderstand, you label, yeah,
name it right, as you've said.
I'm forgetting the e, the e1,right now, but then you regulate

(01:01:02):
right eventually.
Oh you express and then youregulate, and so, actually,
going through that, what theyfound is is exactly what you're
saying kids become adults whocan express emotions and then,
and then they don't Misidentify.
So I would actually the onlything I would disagree with this
I think anger occasionally is aprimary emotion, and that's

(01:01:22):
when it's a response toinjustice.
Right, our response toinjustice is anger, and that's
good and that's right and that'sthat's we should, that's how we
should react to injustice.
But so often, when we're notencouraged to feel overwhelmed,
discouraged, disappointed,anxious, fearful, because all of
those things are considered notman Enough, don't be afraid,

(01:01:45):
real men aren't sad, real med,you know, get, get even, they
don't get sad.
You know, whatever, when weexperience those things, they
often manifest as anger, becausethat's the one and only emotion
that men feel that they'reallowed to express.
You can, you can be angry,because that's culturally

(01:02:06):
appropriate, and so I love whatyou're saying, that, if that's,
you know, and I would agreewholeheartedly, that would be my
.
I would say that's not my numberone.
My number two is you know, II'm done with bullying, I think.
I think bullying is like such aI hate to say in these terms,

(01:02:27):
but bullying is such a reactive,weak thing to do and you know,
I think bullying wouldn't existif we, if we had emotionally
intelligent kids.
But but you know, the boys willbe boys and it's okay to bully
each other.
That that would be my thing,where I would just go like
beyond an inability to feel, orwhen anger and aggression is the

(01:02:49):
way that we act out ouremotions.
It's, you know, so toxic.
So we're coming to the end here.
Larry, I thank you so much forfor your time today.
I love everything you've said.
Can you give us some insightinto where we can find you?
If people want to hear moreFrom Larry Hagner and more from
dad edge, how can we connect?

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
Before we head out, I Waswanting to see do you, do you
want to?
Just a really quick example ofyou know.
Yes, I create space for my kids, yes, I want to give them
emotional IQ, and there's also atime to be direct and I'm happy
to share that and then I cantell you what I'm so I'll give
you an example of being direct,right, to be more of like hey,

(01:03:29):
I'm gonna create space for you,I'm gonna help you Identify your
emotions.
I'm gonna I'm gonna teach youabout emotional IQ, and then
there are times where I'm gonnabe more your coach, right?
So my son, like I said, myoldest son wrestles and he, he
was struggling for about a monthor two with with wrestling.
He was losing a lot of matches,but he was, he was beaten

(01:03:50):
before he even got on the map.
You could see it written allover his face, you could see it
in his body language.
He would pace and I'd be, I'dkind of go up to him, be like
you doing, okay, he's just likeI'm just gonna kill them, just
gonna get killed out there today, like, and it's all this stuff
he's saying, right, and Iremember being at a match and
I'm watching his opponent watchhim pace and he's nudging his

(01:04:11):
buddies like I didn't know whatthey were saying is like that's
my guy and they were likethey're the guy knew he had like
it was like blood in the water.
He, he went out there, he lost.
My son came up to me and I'm notthe type of dad Necessarily all
the time where it's like, oh,you just get him next time,
don't worry about it.
And he came off the mat and Iwas like permission to speak

(01:04:31):
directly.
I always want permission, right, I did to let him and my boys
know that that's coming.
And my son did an incredibleemotional, resilient thing and
he goes Give me a minute.
And I love the fact that hejust was like give me a minute.
I'm like you got it.
And then he came back.
He's like I'm ready for it.
I'm like awesome.
I was like I'm gonna speak verydirectly.
Okay, I was like you werebeaten before you get out on

(01:04:54):
that map.
You're beaten here and you'rebeaten here.
You are so in your head, you'renot in your body and the way
you're pacing your body languageyou get out there, the way you
shake the guy's hand, he knowshe's got you.
It is blood in the water.
I was like when you do that, youwere going to lose.
I was like what if you did this?
Don't worry about the opponent,don't worry what he looks like,

(01:05:17):
don't worry about gettingbeaten.
Who cares what if all youfocused on was getting the next
point, getting the next takedown, getting the reversal, getting
your back points.
That's it, that's all.
That's all.
No matter what, win, lose,whatever, it doesn't matter,
that's all.
And he's like I Think I can dothat and that boy, flip that

(01:05:40):
switch and for the next 12 I'msorry, 13 matches, he went 12
and 1 and I was like what wasthe difference?
He's like I just focused on thepoints, that was it.
But I had to be I, I had to bedirect with him.
So I think that there's a timeto create space to be Emotional

(01:06:00):
with your kids right, and byemotional I mean giving them
emotional space to understandwhere they're at and what
they're feeling.
But there's also a time to belike hey, man, I'm gonna give
you a little bit of tough lovehere, because I know you want to
win, I want what's best for youand I can see some things that
might be going on here.
I might be able to help.
So I Think that's that's what Iwant to share.
But as far as like where tofind me, it's just the dad edges

(01:06:20):
everywhere your dad edge onFacebook and Instagram and the
dad edge dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
Dad edge common and and people can connect.
I know you have a membershipfor dads, so if you're, if
you're a dad on this and you'relooking for ways to connect and
do things like that, they canfind them at the dad edge calm.

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
Yes, awesome, the dad is awesome.
Larry, it's good talking man.
I can't wait to have you on myshow.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
Yeah, I can't wait to .
Can't wait to be there.
Spit some, some Parenting,neuroscience and all that other
fun stuff.
Yeah, thank you so much forbeing on here, and we'll make
sure that we catch up againstyou.

Speaker 1 (01:06:52):
Sounds good brother.

Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
Thank you again, larry, for being willing to
share your story, for beingvulnerable with us today.
We really really appreciated.
I know I learned so much fromthis episode.
Guys, if you like these guestepisodes, please let me know if
you have a question to submitfor our upcoming episodes.
If you didn't know this, ifthis is your first ever episode
listening to the whole parentpodcast, usually the podcast is
just me.

(01:07:13):
About 25% of the time I haveguests, but 75% of the time the
podcast is just me answeringparent questions on given topics
, and so if you have a question,you can always go to your email
provider and shoot me an emailat podcast, at whole parent
Academy Dot-com that's podcast,a whole parent Academy dot-com
to send me an email and, asalways, please share this with

(01:07:37):
all of the parents in your life.
I got a sick kid next to me andso I got to go take care of him
.
I know that you guys haveprobably been there too, so
until next time, this has beenthe whole parent podcast.
I