February 22, 2024 • 53 mins
For all things Whole Parent: CLICK HERE
The originator of the HEAR acronym is Dr Julia Minson of Harvard
Have you ever felt like your parenting style is worlds apart from your partner's, yet you both yearn for a harmonious household? Together, we weave through the complexities of parenting partnerships and the artistry of conflict resolution. This episode brings you heartfelt stories and expert insights on empathetic communication, crucial for aligning with your partner to foster resilient children and a compassionate relationship. We delve into the transformative power of seeing through each other's eyes, understanding the roots of each other's parenting approaches, and how this profound connection can keep conflicts at bay — especially in the eyes of our littlest observers.
Join us as we unpack the delicate balance between differing parenting philosophies and reveal strategies to present a united front. My journey with my wife and the challenges we've faced lay the groundwork for a candid discussion on establishing household rules that respect both parental perspectives and children's needs. We bring to life the "HEAR" communication framework to tackle discipline and other parenting hot topics, offering a lifeline for those in the throes of navigating these stormy seas with their partner.
As we wrap this episode, I extend an invitation to delve deeper through a workshop that promises to fortify your co-parenting toolkit. It's a genuine solo effort to elevate your parenting partnership, free from outside influences or sponsorships, and driven by our shared experiences and community support. For all parents and partners out there seeking a blend of gentle guidance and psychological know-how, this is an episode you won't want to miss.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The first step in any partnership relationship is
empathy.
The fundamental reason whymarriages fall apart, in my
experience, is a lack of anability to perspective, take and
have empathy for your partner.
If I could say one thing thatwould fix the majority of
marriages, it is that Wheneveryou are communicating with a
(00:24):
person who disagrees with you onanything, but especially a
person who you deeply love, whoyou want to continue to be a
partner to, who you want toraise resilient kids with, is to
try, is to listen, tounderstand and to try and find
common values.
It's a brand new day.
Wake up every morning and sayit's a brand new day.
(00:47):
Take a good day.
Make it great.
Okay, hello, and welcome toanother episode of the Whole
Parent Podcast.
I am so excited that you havedecided to tune out the rest of
the world and tune in today totalk about parenting and,
specifically today, talkingabout partnership in parenting.
How do we partner together?
(01:08):
Was that the right word?
How do we join together withour partners compassionately,
who may have different parentingapproaches than us?
This is something that I getasked all the time, because one
of the unique things about me inthis space in the parenting
space, I should say is that I ama dad, I am a guy, and there
(01:28):
are very few men who don't haveadvanced degrees, who are just
dads talking about these thingswith any sort of platform.
The vast majority of people whotalk about parenting are women,
and the vast majority of myfollowers as well as the vast
majority of people who followparenting accounts, I would
expect are women, and so I tendto get asked this question more
(01:49):
than other people, and I havehad several people either DM me
questions like these and oremail them to me.
This is something that we'vedone a workshop about inside the
membership.
How do we help our partners toget on board with our parenting?
If we are, whatever thesituation is right, how do we
(02:11):
work with another person toparent effectively?
Because all of us come from ourown stories.
We have our own backgrounds, wehave our own contexts.
We each have a family of origin, and I really, really hope that
you come from a differentfamily of origin than your
partner.
If you don't, we got things totalk about, but because we come
(02:33):
from different families, itmeans things were done
differently in our houses, andthat means that we are gonna
have a different, a factorydefault, for our parenting.
We also have differentpersonalities, we have different
priorities, and with all ofthese things we wind up with two
(02:53):
people trying to raise oftenone or more humans and
collaborate with one another inways that are deeply vulnerable
and often lead to some conflict,and so there is a lot of
conflict between partners.
It is normal.
In the work that I do at WholeParent, I primarily talk to
(03:15):
parents about parenting, aboutparenting their children, but in
my other job I also do marriagecounseling.
I talk to people aboutmarriages, I talk to people
about partnerships and effectivecommunication, and so I do have
some background in this.
I have also talked to manyparents, probably hundreds of
parents.
At this point, I would say wehave had conversations about how
(03:37):
we can help our partner to geton board with a more healthy,
compassionate, empathetic andeffective view of parenting, and
so I've consolidated a lot ofthat stuff down into this
episode.
We're gonna spend time on threequestions, as we always do,
questions that we've gotten fromour community.
If you didn't know this already, you can submit a question to
podcasts podcast singular atwholeparentacademycom, if you
(04:01):
would like to have one of yourquestions featured, potentially
on the podcast.
So, podcast atwholeparentacademycom to submit
questions.
That's the best way to submitquestions, because if you submit
them to me via DM or other ways, they are more likely to get
lost.
So podcast atwholeparentacademycom.
And when we get questions, weorganize them into categories,
(04:22):
and so here are three questionsabout what to do when your
partner disagrees in some waywith the way in which you are
parenting, or when you disagreein some way with the way in
which your partner is parenting.
In this episode we are gonnacover these three questions, but
we're gonna do so in a littlebit of a different way.
We are going to kind of overlaya framework that I've worked
(04:42):
with.
It's a conflict resolutionframework that I've worked with
not only parents, but people inall industries related to this.
So I used to be an HR.
This is a framework that weused in human resources, with
managers and their employeesgenerally.
I'm trying to think of theright word for that.
(05:02):
They're the superiors andthey're, I don't wanna say,
inferiors.
Why am I forgetting what thisis called?
This is as soon as I started torecord the podcast.
I just forget all the words ofthe English language.
But anyway, this is what wehave worked with managers.
I've worked with this, like Isaid so many times, in different
parenting contexts.
I've worked with this in somany different partnership
contexts, so we're gonna beoverlaying that framework, so
(05:24):
it's gonna be a little bit of adifferent episode, but I really
really do believe that thiswould be super, super helpful
for all of those who areinterested and, as I said before
, if you are interested in themembership, please, if you're
interested, you should join,especially if this episode
resonates with you, because wehave a workshop inside the
membership that is available forreplay for all members.
As long as you're a member, youcan watch it.
(05:45):
And it is on this very topic howdo we get our partners on board
with our parenting approach, orhow do we help ourselves to get
more on board with ourpartner's parenting approach?
So let's just jump right intothe first question.
I've already talked enoughabout the structure of this
episode.
Let's start answering questions.
So the first one comes fromMelissa.
She says I feel like my partnerand I just can't see eye to eye
(06:08):
on our parenting approach.
Yes, melissa, this is so, socommon.
You are not alone.
We've got two little guys, jack, who is five, and Mason, who is
three.
I really believe in being acompassionate and understanding
with them and using naturalconsequences to guide rather
than to punish.
Unsurprising, melissa, youfollow my account.
But Rob, my husband, seesthings differently.
(06:29):
He's all about showing who's incharge, with strict rules and
punishments not physical,thankfully.
He thinks that the only waythat they'll learn and be
prepared for the I'm sorry hethinks that's the only way
they'll learn and be preparedfor the real world.
How can I find common groundwith Rob so that we're both
raising our kids in a way thatfeels right to us?
(06:50):
Such a great question, melissa,and I really like that you
highlight here.
How can I find common ground?
I think that the first step inany partnership relationship is
empathy.
The fundamental reason whymarriages fall apart, in my
experience, is a lack of anability to perspective, take and
(07:13):
have empathy for your partner.
If I could say one thing thatwould fix the majority of
marriages, it is that and I saythis all the time on different
platforms this is part of thereason why I'm so big on empathy
with kids is because when youmodel empathy to your kids, then
you condition them or you kindof set them up to
(07:35):
observationally learn whatempathy looks like, and then
they can then act empatheticallyto their peers and especially
to their adult relationshipssomeday.
And a fundamental lack ofempathy is what is usually the
breakdown in most relationships,when the issue is not mental
illness, addiction or domesticviolence, in just relationships
that are irreconcilabledifferences, primarily those.
(07:58):
Those tend to be becausesomebody lacks perspective
taking, an empathy, and I wouldeven say a lot of infidelity
comes from people whofundamentally misunderstand.
Often in both you have theperson who it goes outside the
marriage and the person who whodoesn't.
A lot of times that has to hasto do with the fact that one or
(08:18):
both parties really reallyfundamentally lack the ability
to perspective taken.
So I really like that you starthere, and that's actually where
I'm going to start with myadvice here, which is to find
common values.
This is going to make even moresense, melissa, when I get into
the broader construct thatwe're going to be talking about.
But the first step withwhenever you are Communicating
(08:40):
with a person who disagrees withyou on anything, but especially
a person who you deeply love,who you want to, you know,
continue to be a partner to, whoyou want to raise resilient
kids with, is to try, is tolisten, to understand and to try
and find common values.
So in this case, rob seems toto think that you know, hey, I
(09:00):
want my children to be preparedfor the real world, right?
So that's one of the thingsthat Rob has identified.
I feel that if the way that I'mparenting is Preparing my
children for the real world,well, melissa, I would guess, if
you're following my account, ifyou're talking about long-term
effects of parenting, if you aretaking the long view of Child
(09:21):
development and not just being,you know, arbitrarily permissive
to make your life easier, whichyou know always backfires and
you'd want to make your life alot not easier, a lot harder
than you also would share thisgoal.
I want my kids to be preparedfor the real world as well.
You just see that the approachto getting to that point is
different than what Rob isoffering, and so, first and
(09:42):
foremost, identifying what yourshared goals are for your
children, what your commonvalues are for your children,
will help you find not just amiddle ground but a way to
communicate with deep love,respect and empathy To this
person who you are parentingwith.
If you go in trying to provethe person wrong, even if you're
(10:06):
right, they will automaticallyget defensive if you go in
instead Trying to look for theplaces where you agree primarily
, then you are going to findthat it's much, much more
effective and and I don't evertalk about politics on this
podcast, but I will point thisout about the at least American
political system right now Upuntil about the mid to late
(10:31):
2000s, we had a system in theUnited States where politicians
fundamentally Attempted to looklike at least they were leading
with perspective taking, findinga middle ground and then saying
, hey, we both want this sharedfor goal and value.
But I have this approach and myopponent has this approach to
that right.
This is, you see, all theseclassic videos from like 2008,
(10:52):
2012, where the presidentialnominees from both parties are
kind of Using those terms,they're they're trying to find a
middle ground.
What has happened recently inAmerican politics is that they
are less interested in gettinganything done and anything
accomplished and they're moreinterested in kind of
solidifying their base andinciting their base, because
(11:14):
rage is a powerful motivator togo out and vote, and so People
from both parties that theresome, some what Interested in
just trying to incite their base, and so this seeps into our
dialogue with our partners,where so many partners I'm
finding today have no interestin finding common ground.
They just want to win.
(11:34):
And I'm just telling you rightnow, if you, if you start from
the perspective of trying toconvince Rob to be that you,
that you are right even if I mayagree with you, melissa, that
your way is a better way you arestarting from a losing
proposition.
You have to find a way that isa win-win for both of you, where
Rob feels like, hey, this isworking, this is effective.
(11:57):
This is hitting on the types ofgoals that I would be
prioritizing for my kids settingthem up, you know, long term
for for success and, at the sametime, doing so in a way that
that aligns with your values.
So it has to be a win-win rightit and I would say, in in the
(12:19):
best case scenario, there are nolosers in a relationship.
There are never a time there,shirt.
Certainly there will be timeswhen you're you have to
apologize to your partner.
Your partner has to apologizeto you in the same way.
The same thing happens withkids.
They'll apologize to you,you'll have to apologize to them
, but primarily when we'retalking about these big macro
things and this is going to gofor all of the parents who I'm
(12:40):
talking to today, all thequestions.
If we can't find a way to get toa win-win perspective, we are
really, really going to struggleto move forward.
So please, please, please,please, prioritize, beginning
with empathetic listening andfinding of common values.
Look for the ways where youboth want the same thing.
(13:01):
And here's the truth thatnobody wants to admit.
All of the parents who comefrom an authoritarian,
protritorian perspective, whodeeply love their kids, even
those parents who may spank,even those parents who may
Practice parenting tactics thatare so far beyond what I would
say is healthy and relationallygood parenting.
(13:23):
Those parents, usually, aredoing so because they have the
same value set I want my childto be successful, I want them to
be happy, I want them to befulfilled, I don't want them to
get in a bunch of trouble.
Right, they are doing so fromthis place and they are probably
deeply afraid that if theychange their parenting tactics,
(13:45):
the way in which they wereraised, then they, the result
will be, hey, something bad willhappen to my kid.
You know, this is the thingthat often we don't like to say
and talk about.
But when you do, when, when youwere raised in a certain way
and the outcome is here you aretoday that feels safe to raise
(14:06):
your kids the exact same way,because you at least know how
that path turned out for you.
It's much scarier to go in andsay I'm gonna do things
differently Because you don'tnecessarily know.
You have to rely on data andresearch and experts and child
development Specialists who aregoing to tell you that that
might be a better way.
(14:27):
But you don't have any personalanecdotal experience with that,
and so that can feel verythreatening.
And so this is the secondaspect to this is that once you
find common values and goals,melissa, the second thing that I
want you to do is I want you totake yourself out of the
equation as the person who'sgoing to change Rob's
(14:47):
perspective on Healthy parentingtechniques.
So obviously I don't know ifyou know this, but but and you
should know this if you, ifyou've Listen to whole parent
for any period of time, andcertainly if you're listening to
me on this podcast for anyperiod of time I am an anti
punishment person.
I I believe in zero punishmentin parenting.
I think that punishmentfundamentally works against our
(15:10):
kids, not for our kids.
It's not effective.
We're not even talking aboutthe ethics of punishment.
Here I'm talking about theeffectiveness of punishment.
From a psychological, neuroAnatomy, neuropsychology
perspective, punishment tends tothe work far worse than
alternatives to punishment.
So I Don't want you, melissa,to be the person who tries to
(15:32):
convince Rob of that.
Instead, what I want you guysto do is consider a concept of
learning together, learning inpartnership.
Go out and find a parentingpodcast that you both can commit
to, listening to somebody whoyou can both get on board with,
who, who advocates for positiveparenting techniques and
(15:53):
effective parenting techniques,while also speaking in a way
that Rob can understand and I'mobviously in this podcast.
I think that that's me right,but but maybe it's not.
Maybe Rob would listen to meand go I can't stand this guy, I
don't want to listen to thisguy.
This guy sucks, whatever.
But if you got to find somebodywho can bridge that gap, so
that you're not the one tryingto convince Rob Because you
(16:14):
don't want to get into aposition where it's oppositional
and now it's if we do it thisway, melissa wins and if we do
it this way, rob wins that thattype of win-lose mentality in
Relationships is toxic.
It's toxic, so it's not goingto set your relationship up well
, and it's not going to openthat person up to actually
appreciating learning anddevelopment from a
(16:37):
non-dispensive perspective.
So instead, learn in tandem.
Find resources, whether that'sa podcast or parenting book that
you guys can both read or bothlisten to the audio version of,
or a parenting creator on asocial media platform that you
guys can both follow, althoughthat's usually not as good,
because Social media is full oflike one minute videos and
(16:58):
that's that's.
You're never going to reallyreally change your videos or
change your life With one minutevideos.
Right?
You need longer form content, aparenting email list that you
can get on.
Whatever it is that you guyscan do.
Learn together so that you guyscan discuss this third party
teaching you, rather than tryingto be the one who, for example,
listens to my podcast, thengoes to your husband and says
(17:20):
here's what I learned on thispodcast and here's why it's
right and here's why you'rewrong.
That will not be nearly aseffective.
So learn together and find aplace of common values.
That's how I'm going to startfor you, melissa, and then I
want you to listen to the restof the episode, because we're
going to get into this paradigmthat that can.
That's going to emphasize someof the things that we've already
talked about and that might bean effective way to actually
Communicate this to Rob, beyondjust learning together.
(17:44):
Okay, so now, pivoting off,we're gonna go to Rachel, and
Rachel is having a somewhatsimilar issue, kind of all of
these are similar issues, butfrom a little bit of a different
perspective.
So Rachel says I'm feelingreally frustrated because my
partner can't seem to agree onhow to parent our six-year-old
daughter Whenever she misbehaves.
My partner is more lenient,which I feel undermines my
(18:06):
authority and confuses mydaughter.
I wanna be on the same pagewhen it comes to discipline and
setting boundaries, but wealways end up arguing about it.
Any suggestions?
Yes, many suggestions.
The first thing don't allow yourparenting to become a
battleground place.
Right?
This is not a place where we'refighting.
This is a place where we'reworking towards a common goal.
(18:28):
When you're on a team with yourpartner working towards a
common goal, you are much morelikely to work with that person,
even within their strengths andin spite of their weaknesses.
When I am on a team withsomeone in whole parent land, or
when I'm writing, when Irecently have been in the
process of editing the book thatI wrote in the fall that will
(18:52):
be available for publicationsometime in 2025, early 2025.
When I'm working with myeditors and things like that and
the people who designed thecover and all that, I could look
at the ways in which I don'treally like what they're doing.
But what I know at the core isthat all of us have the same
goal, which is to make this thebest book possible, and so I'm
actually able to overlook manyof their shortcomings because we
(19:15):
share the common goal of makingthe whole parent book, whatever
the title is.
Whenever you're listening tothis, maybe you already have a
title by the time you hear this,but, as the best possible thing
that it can be, this is thesame thing.
That's true when you're if youwant the metaphor, it's a little
bit more clear building a house.
Right, you have a person whodoes the framing, you have
people who do the drywall, youhave people who do the plumbing
and the electrical and et cetera, et cetera.
One of these people may not begood at certain things.
(19:37):
For example, electricians kindof in tongue-in-cheek, I don't
want to shame any electricians,but notably they tend to be
pretty rough on the drywall whenthey go in to fix things.
So the drywall guys couldeasily shame and try and be mean
to, or aggressive or angry atthe electrical guy who maybe was
not as careful with the drywallas they could have been.
Or you can identify that bothparties are working towards the
(20:03):
same goal and the electriciancould say here's what I need
from the drywall team and thedrywall team could say here's
what I need from the electricalto make this work together
because we're working towards ashared goal.
You cannot get into anoppositional space where you're
constantly arguing right.
So how do you avoid this?
Number one, you got to stopfighting in the moment.
I'm not saying it's totally notokay to fight in front of your
(20:25):
kids.
It's okay to fight in front ofyour kids.
This is like an old 90s adagenever fight in front of your
kids.
That's actually bad advice,because your kids need to watch
effective conflict resolution,including when it's heated.
They need to watch you do that.
They need to watch you workthat out and you need to then
process with them later.
Hey, I was upset and this ishow I said this and this are the
(20:46):
things that I maybe regret, andhere's how I apologized, et
cetera, et cetera.
It's okay to fight in front ofyour kids.
It's totally okay within reason, right?
Not all the time, but in anormal amount, totally okay.
What I'm saying, though, is thatif you're fighting, always in
the moment, about the thing, younever do, this boundary, you
(21:08):
are constantly undermining myauthority, et cetera, et cetera.
In the moment when it'shappening, everybody's triggered
, everybody's in there amygdala,everybody's in their fight or
flight, nobody's learninganything and no conflict is
actually being resolved, hear me.
So don't fight, then, aboutthose things.
Don't, instead, sit down afterthe kids are in bed, after a
good night, after a positiveexperience, when you guys are
(21:31):
both regulated in calm, wheneverybody's had enough sleep and
everybody's full of deliciousfood and everybody go on a date
night and talk about this.
Get a sitter and go out andhave this conversation.
What are some basic rules thatwe can agree on that happens,
that can work within ourparadigm?
(21:51):
So this is actually a problemthat I've had with my wife.
The gender roles are reversedhere, because I'm the one who
feels like my wife undermines myauthority at times, right, and
we had to actually come up withtwo kind of fundamental.
One of them was a mindset shiftand one of them was a rule, and
so the first rule that we hadto name or actually two rules
was the reason why I felt likemy wife was undermining my
(22:13):
authority was that I was tryingto protect her time in the
morning to get ready from mykids interrupting that and often
derailing that process.
So she sleeps in a little bitlater than I do, she tends to
have a little bit more troublesleeping and so she tends to
sleep in.
I tend to get up with the kids.
It's not 100% of the time, butmaybe 99% of the time.
(22:34):
That's how our relationshipfunctions and it functions
extremely well.
We're very happy with thisoutcome of me getting up with
the kids.
So when she gets up, I oftenwanna try and protect the first
20 or 30 minutes so that she canget ready, she can take a
shower, she can do all thethings.
Oftentimes my kids will want togo to her, especially when
there's any conflict between meand my kids, because especially
my oldest will feel often andhe's identified this that mom
(22:58):
will kind of give in or be moreempathetic than dad is being in
that moment, which a lot ofpeople are like wow, you're not
always empathetic.
No, I'm not.
I'm not a perfect parent by anystretch, and I had just made
this arbitrary rule with my kidsthat nobody's allowed to go
upstairs to see mom before.
I don't remember what the timewas until mom comes down, I
(23:19):
think that was it, and my wifefelt deeply uncomfortable with
this.
She said I don't want my kidsto want me and then not be
available and me not beavailable to my kids.
And so we came up with two rulesOne, I was not to stop my kids
from going to my wife, and two,she would not discuss with them
the way in which I was parentingwithout me present in those
(23:41):
moments.
So I was afraid of letting themgo upstairs for her good, but
also because I was afraid thatshe might undermine me.
She said if you always let themcome upstairs, then I will
alternatively not talk aboutwhat happened downstairs and how
I agree or disagree with howyou were handling the situation,
and those two things really,really, really helped.
(24:03):
But we had to sit down andactually have that conversation
of like okay, what do you needout of this and what do I need
out of this?
Because what was happening wasshe was just like well, you're
being super, super unreasonablethat you won't let them come to
me and I was like, well, you'rebeing super, super unreasonable
that you're letting them when Isay no.
So she's like don't make that arule.
You can't have, one of the waysin which I'm undermining you, a
(24:23):
fundamental value of mine,which is I let my kids come to
me.
So this is kind of convolutedme, rachel.
But when we're talking aboutthis, when we're identifying
these, we have to be able toagree on some basic rules, and
doing so in a place outside ofthe high energy, high stress
environment of in those momentswhen things are breaking down,
(24:43):
when one parent feels like theother parent is being
undermining or permissive orwhatever.
So that's really good.
And then, secondly, secondly,equally importantly, regular
check-ins.
Regular check-ins.
So not only are we gonna agreeon these kind of boundaries and
rules of how we're going toparent together, even if we have
slightly different approaches,we're also gonna have check-ins
(25:05):
to say how is this going for you, how is this going for me, how
are these things going ingeneral?
Do we feel like this has beeneffective?
Do we feel like it's continuingto be effective?
Those regular check-ins arereally, really essential.
And, again, these check-ins arenot in the moment.
Heated moments these are, ifyou have to scheduled times,
when you say, hey, every Fridayor every Thursday at dinner
(25:25):
we're gonna talk about howparenting is going, whatever
that looks like for you.
But it is massively importantthat you don't just agree on a
set of rules and then just say,oh, those are the rules or these
are the boundaries you have tocheck in.
Because even in our case, withme and my wife, the problem was
not the agreed upon like.
We had agreed upon a rule of Idon't let the kids come upstairs
until you're ready, that weneeded to have a check-in where
(25:50):
that was like, yeah, I actuallyI don't feel that way anymore.
I really, in retrospect, feellike they need to be able to
come to me when they need me.
That was just her thing, and sowe needed to be able to work
together within that.
And then the last piece of thisand this goes for all of the
questions today I'm justchoosing to say it now, at this
point in the episode, but Icould easily say this later on
(26:12):
and the last question I'm gonnafinally lay out the framework
that kind of all of these thingshave been pointing to.
Maybe I should have done thatat the very beginning.
I don't really know how tostructure these podcasts
episodes.
I'm just doing the best I can,guys.
But the last thing I'm gonnasay here that goes for all
things in parenting is please,please, please, please, seek
help when you need it If youfeel that you really cannot
(26:33):
agree, if you feel that youreally cannot find positive.
You know aspects to what's goingon that you cannot find common
ground, that you cannot findshared values, that you are your
partner or you are just notparticipating in the regular
check-ins, you're notparticipating in empathy and
perspective taking.
It's okay and actually reallygood to go and seek help, in
(26:56):
this case with my wife, that itwas a long process for us to
figure out the path forward, andit involved and included me
having a conversation actuallymore than one conversation with
my own therapist about why thiswas so triggering to me that the
way in which I felt my wife wasundermining me and behaving
Like it took me doing my ownself-work in order that I could
(27:19):
even have those conversationseffectively with my wife.
So do not in any way demonizeor feel like you are above or
feel like therapy would not helpyou.
You don't have to go to therapyforever.
Many people go for a period oftime and then they stop.
Or they start and they stop, orthey, you know, have multiple
therapists over a 10 year span,whatever Feel.
(27:41):
So it is massively importantthat you are both connected to
your children and your child,that you're not violating your
fundamental values as a partneror as a parent, and so if you
feel like there is just no pathto communicating in an effective
way, if everything that I'mabout to say in the last
question just feels like ittotally falls flat and doesn't
work, please, please, go andseek help.
(28:04):
All right, so we're about toget into this framework hardcore
with this third question.
It's gonna make all the stuffthat we're talking about kind of
line up and make sense.
But before that, a quick notefrom our sponsors.
Hey, this is John.
We don't actually have anysponsors on this podcast.
It's just me.
Nobody sponsors this podcast,it is all me.
I record every episode, I editevery episode, I post every
(28:25):
episode, I do the descriptionsand the transcripts and
everything else for everyepisode, with some help of some
online tools.
So there are no sponsors, andso what that means is that if
you wanna thank somebody, you'renot gonna go purchase any
products.
The way to thank me is to jointhe email list, is to rate and
review this podcast, is to shareit with somebody that you know,
is to continue to engage anddownload episodes, to subscribe
(28:47):
on all the social media channels, but especially to the podcast,
so that you're getting regulardownloads every single week.
If this stuff is helping you, donot keep it to yourself.
Share it with every parent inyour life.
Shout it from the mountain tops.
As I said at the very beginningof this episode with Melissa
and Rob, there are so manycouples out there, so many
(29:08):
parenting partnerships out there, that would benefit from not
having to constantly debate overwho's right and who's wrong in
parenting, and that they couldjust.
You know, hey, I listened tothis podcast with my spouse.
My husband listens to it.
It makes sense to him.
It's a guy.
It's not, you know, one ofthese gentle parenting people.
It's just like a guy who'stalking about effective
parenting and, yeah, some of italigns up with gentle parenting
(29:29):
and some of it's more likeneuropsychology and that works
for my husband.
The number of times I have heardthat from people is, at this
point, I can't even count.
It's so common, and so pleasedon't keep this to yourself.
Share it with a person that youknow, even if it's a person
that you know who might nottotally love this podcast.
Maybe they have a partner forwhom this podcast could be the
(29:51):
corner that they turn and theystart parenting more effectively
.
They start parenting smarterand not harder.
They start parenting with theirkid's brain in mind instead of
parenting out of their owntriggers and trauma, whatever
that is.
Whoever you can share this with,please do so.
And if you don't know anybodywho you can share it with, I
challenge you you do.
You know five to 10 to 100people that you could probably
(30:13):
share it with, but if you don't,can't think of any of those
people or you feel toouncomfortable to share it
interpersonally which is thebest way to share anything throw
it up on your social media.
Say, hey, I'm listening to thisepisode and I feel like it's
super helpful for somebody outthere in the world.
Just take that leap of faith.
And if you're not even willingto do that, just go in and rate
and review this podcast on somepodcast app.
You don't even have to use yourreal name.
(30:34):
You can rate it anonymously.
Nobody has to know, but throwfive stars on there and let me
know what you think about it.
I read every single review thatwe get.
Seriously, I read every singleone and it honestly.
The reviews are often the thingthat keeps me going.
Podcasts are hard to track.
I don't know how many timesit's being downloaded all the
time, I don't know on which apps.
I don't know how many peoplelisten to the episode or just
(30:55):
download it and let it rot ontheir phone, and so the way that
I know that you're there, theway that I know that you're
listening and that you'regrowing and that you feel like
this is good and helpful to you,is when you go ahead and throw
up a review.
So please do that.
All right, that's it from oursponsor, which is just me.
Let's get back to the episode.
Okay, our final question comesfrom Rachel and she is feeling
(31:18):
really frustrated.
She says she can't seem toagree with her partner on.
Oh, I'm sorry, that was allright.
Our final question comes fromJason.
He's having a tough timebecause him and his partner have
totally different parentingstyles.
Four year old son is startingto pick up on this and causing
some confusion for him.
I tend to be more strict andbelieve in setting clear
boundaries, while my partner ismore permissive and
(31:39):
accommodating, in my opinion,sometimes to a fault.
How can we find a balance whereour child receives consistent
and effective parenting?
All right here, finally, is theframework.
The framework comes from aconflict transformation world.
I don't know who the firstperson who came up with it is.
To be honest, I'm sure that ifI Googled it I could find out,
(31:59):
but I didn't Google it ahead ofthis episode and so I'm sorry if
I'm not crediting the rightperson when I do the show notes.
I will try and find it and dropit in the show notes, but it is
an acronym here H-E-A-R, and itworks.
It's a way of which we cancommunicate with someone who
fundamentally disagrees aboutsome aspect of life, and it is
massively helpful for parentswho disagree with their partner
(32:22):
on parenting styles.
But it can be used in allplaces.
It can be used with your ownfamilies.
It can be used in religiouscontexts you disagree with
somebody in religious space.
It can be used in politics atThanksgiving.
It can be used all over theplace.
And so what does this acronymstand for?
How do we use it?
How can we use it, in this casefor Jason with his wife, with
(32:45):
their four year old.
How can we talk about parenting?
And the first step in theacronym H-E-A-R is H, which is
hedging.
But I like to call it humility,right, because hedging is just
basically saying using languagethat indicates that you are not
100% sure about everything thatyou're saying, that you're not
(33:07):
the definitive expert onanything.
It's very easy to do when youactually are humble enough to
appreciate that you're stilllearning and growing, that you
don't have all the answers.
So hedging language is languagethat uses terms like might you
know?
I might be right about this,I'm not sure, or have you ever
thought they could be?
(33:28):
All of these are types ofhedging statements.
You're not saying this is theway it is, punishment is
ineffective.
Instead, you say something likeyeah, you know, sometimes I
wonder if punishment is eveneffective.
It's.
Hedging statements are juststatements that do not trigger
defensiveness in ourconversation partner.
So with a person.
(33:48):
When we're in conflict with aperson, the number one thing
that happens is that they wecommunicate in such a way that
they throw up a gigantic stone,brick mental wall.
They say this person disagreeswith me, I disagree with them, I
have nothing to learn from them.
They probably will not listento me, and so I'm going to shut
down all communication.
(34:09):
I'm just going to be profoundlydefensive.
If you watch any debate inpolitics, I'm talking more about
politics in this episode thanany episode I've ever made of
this podcast.
Maybe I've ever talked about it.
Watch any debate.
Nobody uses hedging language,right?
Because they're trying toappeal to their base.
They're not necessarily tryingto change the person's mind who
they're communicating with, andso this is a massive, massively
(34:31):
helpful thing that you can do,and it's so, so easy.
Just, instead of saying I don'tthink that that's a good
punishment, you know, I don'tthink that you should be, you
know, giving our kid a time out,you instead say something like
hey, I don't really know whatthe best thing to do here, but I
just feel like maybe giving hima time out it's not going to be
super effective.
Hedging statements just pushpeople's defensiveness down, and
(34:54):
so if you really want to helpyour conversation to be fruitful
and to grow together, usehedging language every single
time.
All right, e, I'm just tryingto move right through this.
E emphasize areas of agreement.
E is emphasize areas ofagreement.
This is what we talked about inour first little section with
(35:16):
Melissa, where we said we'regoing to find some common values
.
We have to begin after we'rehedging.
We also have to find the placeswhere we agree.
So let's let's take a prettyextreme example here.
I'm going to, I'm going to usethe example of spanking.
So this is not something thatanybody has identified on on any
of these questions.
So nobody will feel like I'mcalling them out specifically
(35:38):
but say you have a parent, oneparent, who's spanking, and the
other parent would kind of knowsthe research and science behind
this.
They listen to the podcast.
They know hitting kids is oneof the most ineffective ways of
parents, of parenting, that youcan possibly do.
There is no basis indevelopmental psychology or
behavioral psychology that saysthat hitting any child is a good
idea.
Not only is it unethical likethey know, all this stuff right
(36:00):
it can cause long-term harm,leads to antisocial behavior, it
can lead to violent behaviorlater in life all of these
things right.
So one partner knows this.
The other partner is just goinghey, look, I was spanked as a
kid.
I turned out great, sotherefore I'm going to spank my
kids, right?
So we're going to start with ahedging statement hey, I just
feel like spanking might not bethe way that we are best
(36:22):
approaching discipline in thiscase.
You know I'm not a disciplineexpert, I don't know all the
answers here, but it reallyfeels like this is not going to
work and I feel like I've readplaces that this is not super
good for kids long-term.
That's the hedging statement.
Then we're going to pivot toemphasizing areas of agreement.
I agree that the behavior thatour kid did is inappropriate and
(36:48):
I feel like we agree that wedon't want our kid to do that
anymore.
I think that we can agree thatwith that, and I also agree that
you know, we don't want them togrow up to just be a schmuck,
right, like.
We want to make sure thatthey're healthy and kind and all
of these things.
That's the emphasizingagreement.
So we immediately pivot towhere are shared values?
(37:09):
What is our shared goal?
It's not, hey, it's okay thatyou're doing this inappropriate
thing with our child.
It's, why are they doing that?
Are they only doing thatbecause they feel like this is
the only effective parentingtechnique?
You know, I've mentioned this,maybe on the podcast, but I'm
not exactly sure.
I'm pretty sure I mentioned it,maybe even on the last episode,
(37:30):
but 70% of parents in 2012, 70%believed that spanking was
necessary, necessary.
So if you can find the reasonwhy your partner is doing a
specific parenting negativeparenting technique, you can
actually work within that systemand say, hey, I agree with the
(37:51):
values that we're trying toteach, I just don't necessarily
agree with the means.
Right, and I might not be rightabout that, maybe I'm
completely off here, but Ireally feel like this is a.
You know, we agree here.
We just have to find a commonground.
Third phase of here H-E-A-R isacknowledge their perspective.
This is time when you give yourairtime, the time when you're
(38:13):
talking, because inconversations, oftentimes both
parties especially in conflictand debate, both parties are
just waiting to say what theirpiece.
They're waiting to talk, andthis is really, really
ineffective communication.
When we're waiting to talk, wedon't listen, and so what you're
going to do is you're going toactually turn your opponent I
(38:35):
hate to use that word, butthat's what it is.
When you're disagreeing,oftentimes it feels like they're
your opponent, yourconversation partner.
You're going to turn them intoa listener and you're going to
do this by becoming a listeneryourself.
First You're going to modellistening and then you're going
to demonstrate that you have.
So, while they were talking,you are going to hear their
perspective.
You're actually going to beactively listening.
(38:56):
So when they say you know, theonly thing that's going to work
for these kids is spanking,right, that worked for me and
it's the only thing that worksfor kids.
That's the only thing that theyactually pay attention to,
right, you actually listen towhat they said.
You consider their perspectiveHonestly.
You consider it enough.
So you put yourself in theirperspective, enough Empathizing
(39:19):
with it.
Even if you don't empathizewith the action, you empathize
with the perspective that led tothe action, to such an extent
that you can then voice thatback to them.
So, after you've humbledyourself enough to hedge your
statements, you've emphasizedthe area of agreement.
Then you're going to give theirtime airtime.
You're going to give theirperspective airtime.
I hear what you're saying, thatyou feel sometimes like you feel
(39:42):
like if you don't spank, thenyour kids never going to listen,
but that's the only thing thatkids respond to.
You feel like you onlyresponded to your parents when
they spanked you.
I hear you.
I think that, like you, have avalid perspective here and that,
along with the hedging, is soincredibly disarming, because
all of us just want to be hearddeep down.
(40:02):
Your kid just wants to be heard, your partner just wants to be
heard, and so when you actuallyhear them that's why the acronym
is here and then model to themthat you've heard them hey,
here's your perspective.
And then I add a little note tothis A, you ask them for
clarification and confirmationand say, hey, am I getting that
(40:23):
right?
Is that your perspective?
I just want to make sure that Iunderstand, because I really do
want to understand yourperspective here.
It allows them the space toactually hear you because
they've been heard.
People will not hear untilthey've been heard.
People will not seek tounderstand until they have been
understood Period.
We're all just humans and so ifyou really want to be heard and
(40:45):
understood, you have to hearand understand.
That's fundamental.
So you're going to humbleyourself enough to hedge.
You're going to emphasize youragreement, your understanding,
knowledge of their perspectiveand make sure that you actually
get it right.
You're going to ask forclarification if you don't.
And then and finally, you aregoing to give the alternative,
and this is where we have toreframe it, not as a something
(41:08):
that they shouldn't do, but assomething they should do.
Instead, look for positivediscipline strategies, whether
that's negative consequenceswhatever, negative consequences,
natural consequences, whateverand reframe to the positive.
So you're going to say nexttime that she does XYZ, next
time that he does XYZ, I feelthat we should really just let
(41:32):
him experience the consequencesof his actions.
Next time that he gets a badgrade on the test, whatever,
instead of doing this groundingwhatever, we should just let him
fail.
Maybe that's really what heneeds.
He needs to have thatexperience and maybe that's how
he's going to finally learn.
(41:53):
Now your partner may disagreewith you, but you've done,
you've now communicated withthem so effectively that it's
very unlikely that they're goingto disagree with you in an
aggressive manner or they'regoing to shut you down.
And even if they disagree withyou in the moment, your words
are going to stick around for alot longer bouncing around, and
they're not again.
So when it comes to Jason,specifically the four-year-old
(42:14):
son with Max and your partner,who's, in this case, kind of the
opposite, more permissive let'sjust go through.
I'm going to walk you through.
I could probably do this forall three of them, but I'm just
going to do it for you, jason.
Here's how I do it.
Humble first, hey, I notice withour four-year-old a lot of
times you kind of just it feelslike you just kind of give in to
(42:37):
whatever he wants.
Maybe I'm totally getting thatwrong, maybe I just don't see it
.
That's just what it feels liketo me and I don't know.
But it feels like that couldmaybe be leading to some
confusion for him, because Idon't tend to do that hedging.
I know that we both want ourson to be happy.
(42:59):
I know that we both reallyvalue that he is kind and
compassionate and I see so manyways in which you're doing that
so well.
I know that that's a goal and Ishare that goal with you.
I share that hope for him.
Emphasizing agreement,acknowledging perspective In
this case.
I don't know what your partnerhas just communicated, but I'm
going to just take a stab at it.
(43:19):
I can hear that when you'redoing that, you feel like what
you're really doing is justgetting through those hard
moments so that you can teachthe skills later on.
I understand that.
It makes perfect sense to me.
Is that what you're saying?
I just want to make sure that Iunderstand.
Reframe to the positive.
Okay, great, I'm glad that Iunderstand.
(43:40):
I think next time we shouldmaybe try to hold that boundary
for a little bit longer, tobuild up the frustration,
tolerance, before we give inReframe to the positive.
What do you want me to do?
Is your partner going to fixthemselves overnight?
Absolutely not.
But with a framework like here,you actually can get to the core
(44:02):
heart of the disagreement,because the disagreement very
rarely is on values.
If you had a fundamentaldisagreement on values with your
partner, you guys probably didnot talk enough before you got
married.
To be honest, I don't mean thatyou have to end your marriage,
but then we're going to have todo work in therapy and marriage
counseling outside of justparenting.
If parenting is just themanifestation of a fundamental
(44:25):
disagreement of values, thenit's not a parenting problem.
It's a relationship problemthat we have to solve Most times
.
It's not that Most times theproblem in the relationship or
the problem with parentingrepresents a practicality issue.
Parents disagree on thepracticality of achieving their
long-term goals for their kidsand embodying their values for
(44:50):
their kids.
With a framework like here, whenyou emphasize agreement and you
acknowledge their perspectiveand you hedge your statements
and you reframe to something asan alternative, rather than just
saying hey look, this is just apractical difference that we
have.
I really feel like if we learntogether, as I kind of outlined
for Melissa, if we learn tocommunicate more effectively, if
(45:14):
we seek to have a win-winmindset here, a lot of this
practicality stuff is just goingto get washed out into the
bridge.
One more note here we're at theend of the episode.
But one more note and I justfeel like if you've gotten this
far in this episode, it's rightfor me to say that note is it is
okay for your partner to parentdifferently than you.
A lot of the stuff that we talkabout is related to having even
(45:38):
if your partner is notparenting in what I would define
as particularly positive goodparenting.
It's okay.
A lot of us think we have torest in the knowledge that our
kids are pretty resilient andthat the primary thing that our
kids need is one secure,attached relationship with a
caregiver.
Then, secondarily, they willfind secure, attached
(46:00):
relationships with caregiversoutside the home as well.
If you have a partner who justis never going to be on the same
page with you on this, you'renot necessarily screwing up your
kid.
If your partner is hitting yourkid, if they're being violent.
I think that warrants morepause and conversation and
definitely seeking counselingand therapy.
(46:20):
You want to stop that.
You want to end that.
If it's something as simple asmy partner is just kind of
shaming me with their language,or my partner is just a yeller,
or my partner is really sounaccommodating, they haven't
done their self work and theykind of take their trauma out on
our kids, sometimes in negativeways related to how they frame
(46:41):
things.
My partner isn't quite as bodypositive as I want them to be.
My partner doesn't reallysubscribe to gentle parenting
this, that and the other.
A lot of that stuff is okay.
I think ideally, both partnerswould be on the same page.
I think it's going to be astrain on your relationship if
you don't get on the same pageto some extent.
That's why I do episodes likethis.
But your kid is going to beokay.
(47:02):
Your kid is going to be okayand just knowing that you are
out there doing the good work isenough.
It's enough, good enough.
Parenting is the best type ofparenting.
None of us are perfect parents.
No child is going to have aperfect childhood.
You and your partner are goingto violate your fundamental
tenets and values at times.
But really, if you cannot geton the same page, it does not
(47:26):
mean that your kid is going tobe screwed up for the rest of
their life.
It just doesn't.
And so take rest in that, doall the things that I'm saying
absolutely.
And if none of it works in theend, just rest in the knowledge
that being a secure, attentive,attached caregiver who cares for
your child's basic needs, whois a steady rock of resiliency,
who is a person who they can goto when they are in those toxic
(47:48):
stress moments to make themnon-toxic, that's what your
child needs from you.
And if your partner cannot liveup to that standard because of
their past or whatever else, orthey just haven't done their
work, that is okay.
It's okay for them to be on adifferent journey and your child
is not going to be messed up byhaving parents who approach
parenting differently.
All of us, every single personlistening to this right now had
(48:10):
two parents who or I don't knowif you had two parents, but if
you had two parents or twocaregivers of some kind, they
approach parenting differentlyin some ways, and that's okay.
If you only had one caregiver,that's also okay, and that's
further evidence of the factthat single parents raise
resilient, attached, healthykids all the time.
(48:31):
And so if you don't think thatyou know you can possibly do
this on your own, you can, andso just rest in that, and that's
where I'm going to end theepisode, just knowing that you
are enough.
Your best is enough.
You will never totally changeyour partner's perspective on
everything that's work that theyhave to do, but you are enough.
Rest in that, friends, we areat the episode.
(48:52):
End the end of the episode, Ishould say, on how to help your
partner give on the same pagewith you, how to navigate
partner conflict as it relatesto parenting.
This has been a little bit of alonger episode.
I really appreciate you guyssticking with me through the end
and, as I said, sort of in themiddle or maybe at the beginning
I don't remember exactly when.
If you are interested in thefull workshop 90 minute workshop
(49:13):
on this topic I do have itinside of my membership.
All you have to do is join themembership and you will get
access to that workshopinstantly because it is a replay
.
It's something that we havedone in the past.
Otherwise, I really hope thatthis episode has been helpful to
you If it has, do all of thethings I said at the mid-roll.
Share it with a friend, shareit on social media, read a
review, do all that stuff.
(49:34):
And yeah, this episode has beenlong enough, so I'm going to
stop talking and let you getback to your day.
I know you guys are busyparents.
Take care.
The first step in any partnership relationship is
empathy.
The fundamental reason whymarriages fall apart, in my
experience, is a lack of anability to perspective, take and
have empathy for your partner.
If I could say one thing thatwould fix the majority of
marriages, it is that Wheneveryou are communicating with a
(00:24):
person who disagrees with you onanything, but especially a
person who you deeply love, whoyou want to continue to be a
partner to, who you want toraise resilient kids with, is to
try, is to listen, tounderstand and to try and find
common values.
It's a brand new day.
Wake up every morning and sayit's a brand new day.
(00:47):
Take a good day.
Make it great.
Okay, hello, and welcome toanother episode of the Whole
Parent Podcast.
I am so excited that you havedecided to tune out the rest of
the world and tune in today totalk about parenting and,
specifically today, talkingabout partnership in parenting.
How do we partner together?
(01:08):
Was that the right word?
How do we join together withour partners compassionately,
who may have different parentingapproaches than us?
This is something that I getasked all the time, because one
of the unique things about me inthis space in the parenting
space, I should say is that I ama dad, I am a guy, and there
(01:28):
are very few men who don't haveadvanced degrees, who are just
dads talking about these thingswith any sort of platform.
The vast majority of people whotalk about parenting are women,
and the vast majority of myfollowers as well as the vast
majority of people who followparenting accounts, I would
expect are women, and so I tendto get asked this question more
(01:49):
than other people, and I havehad several people either DM me
questions like these and oremail them to me.
This is something that we'vedone a workshop about inside the
membership.
How do we help our partners toget on board with our parenting?
If we are, whatever thesituation is right, how do we
(02:11):
work with another person toparent effectively?
Because all of us come from ourown stories.
We have our own backgrounds, wehave our own contexts.
We each have a family of origin, and I really, really hope that
you come from a differentfamily of origin than your
partner.
If you don't, we got things totalk about, but because we come
(02:33):
from different families, itmeans things were done
differently in our houses, andthat means that we are gonna
have a different, a factorydefault, for our parenting.
We also have differentpersonalities, we have different
priorities, and with all ofthese things we wind up with two
(02:53):
people trying to raise oftenone or more humans and
collaborate with one another inways that are deeply vulnerable
and often lead to some conflict,and so there is a lot of
conflict between partners.
It is normal.
In the work that I do at WholeParent, I primarily talk to
(03:15):
parents about parenting, aboutparenting their children, but in
my other job I also do marriagecounseling.
I talk to people aboutmarriages, I talk to people
about partnerships and effectivecommunication, and so I do have
some background in this.
I have also talked to manyparents, probably hundreds of
parents.
At this point, I would say wehave had conversations about how
(03:37):
we can help our partner to geton board with a more healthy,
compassionate, empathetic andeffective view of parenting, and
so I've consolidated a lot ofthat stuff down into this
episode.
We're gonna spend time on threequestions, as we always do,
questions that we've gotten fromour community.
If you didn't know this already, you can submit a question to
podcasts podcast singular atwholeparentacademycom, if you
(04:01):
would like to have one of yourquestions featured, potentially
on the podcast.
So, podcast atwholeparentacademycom to submit
questions.
That's the best way to submitquestions, because if you submit
them to me via DM or other ways, they are more likely to get
lost.
So podcast atwholeparentacademycom.
And when we get questions, weorganize them into categories,
(04:22):
and so here are three questionsabout what to do when your
partner disagrees in some waywith the way in which you are
parenting, or when you disagreein some way with the way in
which your partner is parenting.
In this episode we are gonnacover these three questions, but
we're gonna do so in a littlebit of a different way.
We are going to kind of overlaya framework that I've worked
(04:42):
with.
It's a conflict resolutionframework that I've worked with
not only parents, but people inall industries related to this.
So I used to be an HR.
This is a framework that weused in human resources, with
managers and their employeesgenerally.
I'm trying to think of theright word for that.
(05:02):
They're the superiors andthey're, I don't wanna say,
inferiors.
Why am I forgetting what thisis called?
This is as soon as I started torecord the podcast.
I just forget all the words ofthe English language.
But anyway, this is what wehave worked with managers.
I've worked with this, like Isaid so many times, in different
parenting contexts.
I've worked with this in somany different partnership
contexts, so we're gonna beoverlaying that framework, so
(05:24):
it's gonna be a little bit of adifferent episode, but I really
really do believe that thiswould be super, super helpful
for all of those who areinterested and, as I said before
, if you are interested in themembership, please, if you're
interested, you should join,especially if this episode
resonates with you, because wehave a workshop inside the
membership that is available forreplay for all members.
As long as you're a member, youcan watch it.
(05:45):
And it is on this very topic howdo we get our partners on board
with our parenting approach, orhow do we help ourselves to get
more on board with ourpartner's parenting approach?
So let's just jump right intothe first question.
I've already talked enoughabout the structure of this
episode.
Let's start answering questions.
So the first one comes fromMelissa.
She says I feel like my partnerand I just can't see eye to eye
(06:08):
on our parenting approach.
Yes, melissa, this is so, socommon.
You are not alone.
We've got two little guys, jack, who is five, and Mason, who is
three.
I really believe in being acompassionate and understanding
with them and using naturalconsequences to guide rather
than to punish.
Unsurprising, melissa, youfollow my account.
But Rob, my husband, seesthings differently.
(06:29):
He's all about showing who's incharge, with strict rules and
punishments not physical,thankfully.
He thinks that the only waythat they'll learn and be
prepared for the I'm sorry hethinks that's the only way
they'll learn and be preparedfor the real world.
How can I find common groundwith Rob so that we're both
raising our kids in a way thatfeels right to us?
(06:50):
Such a great question, melissa,and I really like that you
highlight here.
How can I find common ground?
I think that the first step inany partnership relationship is
empathy.
The fundamental reason whymarriages fall apart, in my
experience, is a lack of anability to perspective, take and
(07:13):
have empathy for your partner.
If I could say one thing thatwould fix the majority of
marriages, it is that and I saythis all the time on different
platforms this is part of thereason why I'm so big on empathy
with kids is because when youmodel empathy to your kids, then
you condition them or you kindof set them up to
(07:35):
observationally learn whatempathy looks like, and then
they can then act empatheticallyto their peers and especially
to their adult relationshipssomeday.
And a fundamental lack ofempathy is what is usually the
breakdown in most relationships,when the issue is not mental
illness, addiction or domesticviolence, in just relationships
that are irreconcilabledifferences, primarily those.
(07:58):
Those tend to be becausesomebody lacks perspective
taking, an empathy, and I wouldeven say a lot of infidelity
comes from people whofundamentally misunderstand.
Often in both you have theperson who it goes outside the
marriage and the person who whodoesn't.
A lot of times that has to hasto do with the fact that one or
(08:18):
both parties really reallyfundamentally lack the ability
to perspective taken.
So I really like that you starthere, and that's actually where
I'm going to start with myadvice here, which is to find
common values.
This is going to make even moresense, melissa, when I get into
the broader construct thatwe're going to be talking about.
But the first step withwhenever you are Communicating
(08:40):
with a person who disagrees withyou on anything, but especially
a person who you deeply love,who you want to, you know,
continue to be a partner to, whoyou want to raise resilient
kids with, is to try, is tolisten, to understand and to try
and find common values.
So in this case, rob seems toto think that you know, hey, I
(09:00):
want my children to be preparedfor the real world, right?
So that's one of the thingsthat Rob has identified.
I feel that if the way that I'mparenting is Preparing my
children for the real world,well, melissa, I would guess, if
you're following my account, ifyou're talking about long-term
effects of parenting, if you aretaking the long view of Child
(09:21):
development and not just being,you know, arbitrarily permissive
to make your life easier, whichyou know always backfires and
you'd want to make your life alot not easier, a lot harder
than you also would share thisgoal.
I want my kids to be preparedfor the real world as well.
You just see that the approachto getting to that point is
different than what Rob isoffering, and so, first and
(09:42):
foremost, identifying what yourshared goals are for your
children, what your commonvalues are for your children,
will help you find not just amiddle ground but a way to
communicate with deep love,respect and empathy To this
person who you are parentingwith.
If you go in trying to provethe person wrong, even if you're
(10:06):
right, they will automaticallyget defensive if you go in
instead Trying to look for theplaces where you agree primarily
, then you are going to findthat it's much, much more
effective and and I don't evertalk about politics on this
podcast, but I will point thisout about the at least American
political system right now Upuntil about the mid to late
(10:31):
2000s, we had a system in theUnited States where politicians
fundamentally Attempted to looklike at least they were leading
with perspective taking, findinga middle ground and then saying
, hey, we both want this sharedfor goal and value.
But I have this approach and myopponent has this approach to
that right.
This is, you see, all theseclassic videos from like 2008,
(10:52):
2012, where the presidentialnominees from both parties are
kind of Using those terms,they're they're trying to find a
middle ground.
What has happened recently inAmerican politics is that they
are less interested in gettinganything done and anything
accomplished and they're moreinterested in kind of
solidifying their base andinciting their base, because
(11:14):
rage is a powerful motivator togo out and vote, and so People
from both parties that theresome, some what Interested in
just trying to incite their base, and so this seeps into our
dialogue with our partners,where so many partners I'm
finding today have no interestin finding common ground.
They just want to win.
(11:34):
And I'm just telling you rightnow, if you, if you start from
the perspective of trying toconvince Rob to be that you,
that you are right even if I mayagree with you, melissa, that
your way is a better way you arestarting from a losing
proposition.
You have to find a way that isa win-win for both of you, where
Rob feels like, hey, this isworking, this is effective.
(11:57):
This is hitting on the types ofgoals that I would be
prioritizing for my kids settingthem up, you know, long term
for for success and, at the sametime, doing so in a way that
that aligns with your values.
So it has to be a win-win rightit and I would say, in in the
(12:19):
best case scenario, there are nolosers in a relationship.
There are never a time there,shirt.
Certainly there will be timeswhen you're you have to
apologize to your partner.
Your partner has to apologizeto you in the same way.
The same thing happens withkids.
They'll apologize to you,you'll have to apologize to them
, but primarily when we'retalking about these big macro
things and this is going to gofor all of the parents who I'm
(12:40):
talking to today, all thequestions.
If we can't find a way to get toa win-win perspective, we are
really, really going to struggleto move forward.
So please, please, please,please, prioritize, beginning
with empathetic listening andfinding of common values.
Look for the ways where youboth want the same thing.
(13:01):
And here's the truth thatnobody wants to admit.
All of the parents who comefrom an authoritarian,
protritorian perspective, whodeeply love their kids, even
those parents who may spank,even those parents who may
Practice parenting tactics thatare so far beyond what I would
say is healthy and relationallygood parenting.
(13:23):
Those parents, usually, aredoing so because they have the
same value set I want my childto be successful, I want them to
be happy, I want them to befulfilled, I don't want them to
get in a bunch of trouble.
Right, they are doing so fromthis place and they are probably
deeply afraid that if theychange their parenting tactics,
(13:45):
the way in which they wereraised, then they, the result
will be, hey, something bad willhappen to my kid.
You know, this is the thingthat often we don't like to say
and talk about.
But when you do, when, when youwere raised in a certain way
and the outcome is here you aretoday that feels safe to raise
(14:06):
your kids the exact same way,because you at least know how
that path turned out for you.
It's much scarier to go in andsay I'm gonna do things
differently Because you don'tnecessarily know.
You have to rely on data andresearch and experts and child
development Specialists who aregoing to tell you that that
might be a better way.
(14:27):
But you don't have any personalanecdotal experience with that,
and so that can feel verythreatening.
And so this is the secondaspect to this is that once you
find common values and goals,melissa, the second thing that I
want you to do is I want you totake yourself out of the
equation as the person who'sgoing to change Rob's
(14:47):
perspective on Healthy parentingtechniques.
So obviously I don't know ifyou know this, but but and you
should know this if you, ifyou've Listen to whole parent
for any period of time, andcertainly if you're listening to
me on this podcast for anyperiod of time I am an anti
punishment person.
I I believe in zero punishmentin parenting.
I think that punishmentfundamentally works against our
(15:10):
kids, not for our kids.
It's not effective.
We're not even talking aboutthe ethics of punishment.
Here I'm talking about theeffectiveness of punishment.
From a psychological, neuroAnatomy, neuropsychology
perspective, punishment tends tothe work far worse than
alternatives to punishment.
So I Don't want you, melissa,to be the person who tries to
(15:32):
convince Rob of that.
Instead, what I want you guysto do is consider a concept of
learning together, learning inpartnership.
Go out and find a parentingpodcast that you both can commit
to, listening to somebody whoyou can both get on board with,
who, who advocates for positiveparenting techniques and
(15:53):
effective parenting techniques,while also speaking in a way
that Rob can understand and I'mobviously in this podcast.
I think that that's me right,but but maybe it's not.
Maybe Rob would listen to meand go I can't stand this guy, I
don't want to listen to thisguy.
This guy sucks, whatever.
But if you got to find somebodywho can bridge that gap, so
that you're not the one tryingto convince Rob Because you
(16:14):
don't want to get into aposition where it's oppositional
and now it's if we do it thisway, melissa wins and if we do
it this way, rob wins that thattype of win-lose mentality in
Relationships is toxic.
It's toxic, so it's not goingto set your relationship up well
, and it's not going to openthat person up to actually
appreciating learning anddevelopment from a
(16:37):
non-dispensive perspective.
So instead, learn in tandem.
Find resources, whether that'sa podcast or parenting book that
you guys can both read or bothlisten to the audio version of,
or a parenting creator on asocial media platform that you
guys can both follow, althoughthat's usually not as good,
because Social media is full oflike one minute videos and
(16:58):
that's that's.
You're never going to reallyreally change your videos or
change your life With one minutevideos.
Right?
You need longer form content, aparenting email list that you
can get on.
Whatever it is that you guyscan do.
Learn together so that you guyscan discuss this third party
teaching you, rather than tryingto be the one who, for example,
listens to my podcast, thengoes to your husband and says
(17:20):
here's what I learned on thispodcast and here's why it's
right and here's why you'rewrong.
That will not be nearly aseffective.
So learn together and find aplace of common values.
That's how I'm going to startfor you, melissa, and then I
want you to listen to the restof the episode, because we're
going to get into this paradigmthat that can.
That's going to emphasize someof the things that we've already
talked about and that might bean effective way to actually
Communicate this to Rob, beyondjust learning together.
(17:44):
Okay, so now, pivoting off,we're gonna go to Rachel, and
Rachel is having a somewhatsimilar issue, kind of all of
these are similar issues, butfrom a little bit of a different
perspective.
So Rachel says I'm feelingreally frustrated because my
partner can't seem to agree onhow to parent our six-year-old
daughter Whenever she misbehaves.
My partner is more lenient,which I feel undermines my
(18:06):
authority and confuses mydaughter.
I wanna be on the same pagewhen it comes to discipline and
setting boundaries, but wealways end up arguing about it.
Any suggestions?
Yes, many suggestions.
The first thing don't allow yourparenting to become a
battleground place.
Right?
This is not a place where we'refighting.
This is a place where we'reworking towards a common goal.
(18:28):
When you're on a team with yourpartner working towards a
common goal, you are much morelikely to work with that person,
even within their strengths andin spite of their weaknesses.
When I am on a team withsomeone in whole parent land, or
when I'm writing, when Irecently have been in the
process of editing the book thatI wrote in the fall that will
(18:52):
be available for publicationsometime in 2025, early 2025.
When I'm working with myeditors and things like that and
the people who designed thecover and all that, I could look
at the ways in which I don'treally like what they're doing.
But what I know at the core isthat all of us have the same
goal, which is to make this thebest book possible, and so I'm
actually able to overlook manyof their shortcomings because we
(19:15):
share the common goal of makingthe whole parent book, whatever
the title is.
Whenever you're listening tothis, maybe you already have a
title by the time you hear this,but, as the best possible thing
that it can be, this is thesame thing.
That's true when you're if youwant the metaphor, it's a little
bit more clear building a house.
Right, you have a person whodoes the framing, you have
people who do the drywall, youhave people who do the plumbing
and the electrical and et cetera, et cetera.
One of these people may not begood at certain things.
(19:37):
For example, electricians kindof in tongue-in-cheek, I don't
want to shame any electricians,but notably they tend to be
pretty rough on the drywall whenthey go in to fix things.
So the drywall guys couldeasily shame and try and be mean
to, or aggressive or angry atthe electrical guy who maybe was
not as careful with the drywallas they could have been.
Or you can identify that bothparties are working towards the
(20:03):
same goal and the electriciancould say here's what I need
from the drywall team and thedrywall team could say here's
what I need from the electricalto make this work together
because we're working towards ashared goal.
You cannot get into anoppositional space where you're
constantly arguing right.
So how do you avoid this?
Number one, you got to stopfighting in the moment.
I'm not saying it's totally notokay to fight in front of your
(20:25):
kids.
It's okay to fight in front ofyour kids.
This is like an old 90s adagenever fight in front of your
kids.
That's actually bad advice,because your kids need to watch
effective conflict resolution,including when it's heated.
They need to watch you do that.
They need to watch you workthat out and you need to then
process with them later.
Hey, I was upset and this ishow I said this and this are the
(20:46):
things that I maybe regret, andhere's how I apologized, et
cetera, et cetera.
It's okay to fight in front ofyour kids.
It's totally okay within reason, right?
Not all the time, but in anormal amount, totally okay.
What I'm saying, though, is thatif you're fighting, always in
the moment, about the thing, younever do, this boundary, you
(21:08):
are constantly undermining myauthority, et cetera, et cetera.
In the moment when it'shappening, everybody's triggered
, everybody's in there amygdala,everybody's in their fight or
flight, nobody's learninganything and no conflict is
actually being resolved, hear me.
So don't fight, then, aboutthose things.
Don't, instead, sit down afterthe kids are in bed, after a
good night, after a positiveexperience, when you guys are
(21:31):
both regulated in calm, wheneverybody's had enough sleep and
everybody's full of deliciousfood and everybody go on a date
night and talk about this.
Get a sitter and go out andhave this conversation.
What are some basic rules thatwe can agree on that happens,
that can work within ourparadigm?
(21:51):
So this is actually a problemthat I've had with my wife.
The gender roles are reversedhere, because I'm the one who
feels like my wife undermines myauthority at times, right, and
we had to actually come up withtwo kind of fundamental.
One of them was a mindset shiftand one of them was a rule, and
so the first rule that we hadto name or actually two rules
was the reason why I felt likemy wife was undermining my
(22:13):
authority was that I was tryingto protect her time in the
morning to get ready from mykids interrupting that and often
derailing that process.
So she sleeps in a little bitlater than I do, she tends to
have a little bit more troublesleeping and so she tends to
sleep in.
I tend to get up with the kids.
It's not 100% of the time, butmaybe 99% of the time.
(22:34):
That's how our relationshipfunctions and it functions
extremely well.
We're very happy with thisoutcome of me getting up with
the kids.
So when she gets up, I oftenwanna try and protect the first
20 or 30 minutes so that she canget ready, she can take a
shower, she can do all thethings.
Oftentimes my kids will want togo to her, especially when
there's any conflict between meand my kids, because especially
my oldest will feel often andhe's identified this that mom
(22:58):
will kind of give in or be moreempathetic than dad is being in
that moment, which a lot ofpeople are like wow, you're not
always empathetic.
No, I'm not.
I'm not a perfect parent by anystretch, and I had just made
this arbitrary rule with my kidsthat nobody's allowed to go
upstairs to see mom before.
I don't remember what the timewas until mom comes down, I
(23:19):
think that was it, and my wifefelt deeply uncomfortable with
this.
She said I don't want my kidsto want me and then not be
available and me not beavailable to my kids.
And so we came up with two rulesOne, I was not to stop my kids
from going to my wife, and two,she would not discuss with them
the way in which I was parentingwithout me present in those
(23:41):
moments.
So I was afraid of letting themgo upstairs for her good, but
also because I was afraid thatshe might undermine me.
She said if you always let themcome upstairs, then I will
alternatively not talk aboutwhat happened downstairs and how
I agree or disagree with howyou were handling the situation,
and those two things really,really, really helped.
(24:03):
But we had to sit down andactually have that conversation
of like okay, what do you needout of this and what do I need
out of this?
Because what was happening wasshe was just like well, you're
being super, super unreasonablethat you won't let them come to
me and I was like, well, you'rebeing super, super unreasonable
that you're letting them when Isay no.
So she's like don't make that arule.
You can't have, one of the waysin which I'm undermining you, a
(24:23):
fundamental value of mine,which is I let my kids come to
me.
So this is kind of convolutedme, rachel.
But when we're talking aboutthis, when we're identifying
these, we have to be able toagree on some basic rules, and
doing so in a place outside ofthe high energy, high stress
environment of in those momentswhen things are breaking down,
(24:43):
when one parent feels like theother parent is being
undermining or permissive orwhatever.
So that's really good.
And then, secondly, secondly,equally importantly, regular
check-ins.
Regular check-ins.
So not only are we gonna agreeon these kind of boundaries and
rules of how we're going toparent together, even if we have
slightly different approaches,we're also gonna have check-ins
(25:05):
to say how is this going for you, how is this going for me, how
are these things going ingeneral?
Do we feel like this has beeneffective?
Do we feel like it's continuingto be effective?
Those regular check-ins arereally, really essential.
And, again, these check-ins arenot in the moment.
Heated moments these are, ifyou have to scheduled times,
when you say, hey, every Fridayor every Thursday at dinner
(25:25):
we're gonna talk about howparenting is going, whatever
that looks like for you.
But it is massively importantthat you don't just agree on a
set of rules and then just say,oh, those are the rules or these
are the boundaries you have tocheck in.
Because even in our case, withme and my wife, the problem was
not the agreed upon like.
We had agreed upon a rule of Idon't let the kids come upstairs
until you're ready, that weneeded to have a check-in where
(25:50):
that was like, yeah, I actuallyI don't feel that way anymore.
I really, in retrospect, feellike they need to be able to
come to me when they need me.
That was just her thing, and sowe needed to be able to work
together within that.
And then the last piece of thisand this goes for all of the
questions today I'm justchoosing to say it now, at this
point in the episode, but Icould easily say this later on
(26:12):
and the last question I'm gonnafinally lay out the framework
that kind of all of these thingshave been pointing to.
Maybe I should have done thatat the very beginning.
I don't really know how tostructure these podcasts
episodes.
I'm just doing the best I can,guys.
But the last thing I'm gonnasay here that goes for all
things in parenting is please,please, please, please, seek
help when you need it If youfeel that you really cannot
(26:33):
agree, if you feel that youreally cannot find positive.
You know aspects to what's goingon that you cannot find common
ground, that you cannot findshared values, that you are your
partner or you are just notparticipating in the regular
check-ins, you're notparticipating in empathy and
perspective taking.
It's okay and actually reallygood to go and seek help, in
(26:56):
this case with my wife, that itwas a long process for us to
figure out the path forward, andit involved and included me
having a conversation actuallymore than one conversation with
my own therapist about why thiswas so triggering to me that the
way in which I felt my wife wasundermining me and behaving
Like it took me doing my ownself-work in order that I could
(27:19):
even have those conversationseffectively with my wife.
So do not in any way demonizeor feel like you are above or
feel like therapy would not helpyou.
You don't have to go to therapyforever.
Many people go for a period oftime and then they stop.
Or they start and they stop, orthey, you know, have multiple
therapists over a 10 year span,whatever Feel.
(27:41):
So it is massively importantthat you are both connected to
your children and your child,that you're not violating your
fundamental values as a partneror as a parent, and so if you
feel like there is just no pathto communicating in an effective
way, if everything that I'mabout to say in the last
question just feels like ittotally falls flat and doesn't
work, please, please, go andseek help.
(28:04):
All right, so we're about toget into this framework hardcore
with this third question.
It's gonna make all the stuffthat we're talking about kind of
line up and make sense.
But before that, a quick notefrom our sponsors.
Hey, this is John.
We don't actually have anysponsors on this podcast.
It's just me.
Nobody sponsors this podcast,it is all me.
I record every episode, I editevery episode, I post every
(28:25):
episode, I do the descriptionsand the transcripts and
everything else for everyepisode, with some help of some
online tools.
So there are no sponsors, andso what that means is that if
you wanna thank somebody, you'renot gonna go purchase any
products.
The way to thank me is to jointhe email list, is to rate and
review this podcast, is to shareit with somebody that you know,
is to continue to engage anddownload episodes, to subscribe
(28:47):
on all the social media channels, but especially to the podcast,
so that you're getting regulardownloads every single week.
If this stuff is helping you, donot keep it to yourself.
Share it with every parent inyour life.
Shout it from the mountain tops.
As I said at the very beginningof this episode with Melissa
and Rob, there are so manycouples out there, so many
(29:08):
parenting partnerships out there, that would benefit from not
having to constantly debate overwho's right and who's wrong in
parenting, and that they couldjust.
You know, hey, I listened tothis podcast with my spouse.
My husband listens to it.
It makes sense to him.
It's a guy.
It's not, you know, one ofthese gentle parenting people.
It's just like a guy who'stalking about effective
parenting and, yeah, some of italigns up with gentle parenting
(29:29):
and some of it's more likeneuropsychology and that works
for my husband.
The number of times I have heardthat from people is, at this
point, I can't even count.
It's so common, and so pleasedon't keep this to yourself.
Share it with a person that youknow, even if it's a person
that you know who might nottotally love this podcast.
Maybe they have a partner forwhom this podcast could be the
(29:51):
corner that they turn and theystart parenting more effectively
.
They start parenting smarterand not harder.
They start parenting with theirkid's brain in mind instead of
parenting out of their owntriggers and trauma, whatever
that is.
Whoever you can share this with,please do so.
And if you don't know anybodywho you can share it with, I
challenge you you do.
You know five to 10 to 100people that you could probably
(30:13):
share it with, but if you don't,can't think of any of those
people or you feel toouncomfortable to share it
interpersonally which is thebest way to share anything throw
it up on your social media.
Say, hey, I'm listening to thisepisode and I feel like it's
super helpful for somebody outthere in the world.
Just take that leap of faith.
And if you're not even willingto do that, just go in and rate
and review this podcast on somepodcast app.
You don't even have to use yourreal name.
(30:34):
You can rate it anonymously.
Nobody has to know, but throwfive stars on there and let me
know what you think about it.
I read every single review thatwe get.
Seriously, I read every singleone and it honestly.
The reviews are often the thingthat keeps me going.
Podcasts are hard to track.
I don't know how many timesit's being downloaded all the
time, I don't know on which apps.
I don't know how many peoplelisten to the episode or just
(30:55):
download it and let it rot ontheir phone, and so the way that
I know that you're there, theway that I know that you're
listening and that you'regrowing and that you feel like
this is good and helpful to you,is when you go ahead and throw
up a review.
So please do that.
All right, that's it from oursponsor, which is just me.
Let's get back to the episode.
Okay, our final question comesfrom Rachel and she is feeling
(31:18):
really frustrated.
She says she can't seem toagree with her partner on.
Oh, I'm sorry, that was allright.
Our final question comes fromJason.
He's having a tough timebecause him and his partner have
totally different parentingstyles.
Four year old son is startingto pick up on this and causing
some confusion for him.
I tend to be more strict andbelieve in setting clear
boundaries, while my partner ismore permissive and
(31:39):
accommodating, in my opinion,sometimes to a fault.
How can we find a balance whereour child receives consistent
and effective parenting?
All right here, finally, is theframework.
The framework comes from aconflict transformation world.
I don't know who the firstperson who came up with it is.
To be honest, I'm sure that ifI Googled it I could find out,
(31:59):
but I didn't Google it ahead ofthis episode and so I'm sorry if
I'm not crediting the rightperson when I do the show notes.
I will try and find it and dropit in the show notes, but it is
an acronym here H-E-A-R, and itworks.
It's a way of which we cancommunicate with someone who
fundamentally disagrees aboutsome aspect of life, and it is
massively helpful for parentswho disagree with their partner
(32:22):
on parenting styles.
But it can be used in allplaces.
It can be used with your ownfamilies.
It can be used in religiouscontexts you disagree with
somebody in religious space.
It can be used in politics atThanksgiving.
It can be used all over theplace.
And so what does this acronymstand for?
How do we use it?
How can we use it, in this casefor Jason with his wife, with
(32:45):
their four year old.
How can we talk about parenting?
And the first step in theacronym H-E-A-R is H, which is
hedging.
But I like to call it humility,right, because hedging is just
basically saying using languagethat indicates that you are not
100% sure about everything thatyou're saying, that you're not
(33:07):
the definitive expert onanything.
It's very easy to do when youactually are humble enough to
appreciate that you're stilllearning and growing, that you
don't have all the answers.
So hedging language is languagethat uses terms like might you
know?
I might be right about this,I'm not sure, or have you ever
thought they could be?
(33:28):
All of these are types ofhedging statements.
You're not saying this is theway it is, punishment is
ineffective.
Instead, you say something likeyeah, you know, sometimes I
wonder if punishment is eveneffective.
It's.
Hedging statements are juststatements that do not trigger
defensiveness in ourconversation partner.
So with a person.
(33:48):
When we're in conflict with aperson, the number one thing
that happens is that they wecommunicate in such a way that
they throw up a gigantic stone,brick mental wall.
They say this person disagreeswith me, I disagree with them, I
have nothing to learn from them.
They probably will not listento me, and so I'm going to shut
down all communication.
(34:09):
I'm just going to be profoundlydefensive.
If you watch any debate inpolitics, I'm talking more about
politics in this episode thanany episode I've ever made of
this podcast.
Maybe I've ever talked about it.
Watch any debate.
Nobody uses hedging language,right?
Because they're trying toappeal to their base.
They're not necessarily tryingto change the person's mind who
they're communicating with, andso this is a massive, massively
(34:31):
helpful thing that you can do,and it's so, so easy.
Just, instead of saying I don'tthink that that's a good
punishment, you know, I don'tthink that you should be, you
know, giving our kid a time out,you instead say something like
hey, I don't really know whatthe best thing to do here, but I
just feel like maybe giving hima time out it's not going to be
super effective.
Hedging statements just pushpeople's defensiveness down, and
(34:54):
so if you really want to helpyour conversation to be fruitful
and to grow together, usehedging language every single
time.
All right, e, I'm just tryingto move right through this.
E emphasize areas of agreement.
E is emphasize areas ofagreement.
This is what we talked about inour first little section with
(35:16):
Melissa, where we said we'regoing to find some common values
.
We have to begin after we'rehedging.
We also have to find the placeswhere we agree.
So let's let's take a prettyextreme example here.
I'm going to, I'm going to usethe example of spanking.
So this is not something thatanybody has identified on on any
of these questions.
So nobody will feel like I'mcalling them out specifically
(35:38):
but say you have a parent, oneparent, who's spanking, and the
other parent would kind of knowsthe research and science behind
this.
They listen to the podcast.
They know hitting kids is oneof the most ineffective ways of
parents, of parenting, that youcan possibly do.
There is no basis indevelopmental psychology or
behavioral psychology that saysthat hitting any child is a good
idea.
Not only is it unethical likethey know, all this stuff right
(36:00):
it can cause long-term harm,leads to antisocial behavior, it
can lead to violent behaviorlater in life all of these
things right.
So one partner knows this.
The other partner is just goinghey, look, I was spanked as a
kid.
I turned out great, sotherefore I'm going to spank my
kids, right?
So we're going to start with ahedging statement hey, I just
feel like spanking might not bethe way that we are best
(36:22):
approaching discipline in thiscase.
You know I'm not a disciplineexpert, I don't know all the
answers here, but it reallyfeels like this is not going to
work and I feel like I've readplaces that this is not super
good for kids long-term.
That's the hedging statement.
Then we're going to pivot toemphasizing areas of agreement.
I agree that the behavior thatour kid did is inappropriate and
(36:48):
I feel like we agree that wedon't want our kid to do that
anymore.
I think that we can agree thatwith that, and I also agree that
you know, we don't want them togrow up to just be a schmuck,
right, like.
We want to make sure thatthey're healthy and kind and all
of these things.
That's the emphasizingagreement.
So we immediately pivot towhere are shared values?
(37:09):
What is our shared goal?
It's not, hey, it's okay thatyou're doing this inappropriate
thing with our child.
It's, why are they doing that?
Are they only doing thatbecause they feel like this is
the only effective parentingtechnique?
You know, I've mentioned this,maybe on the podcast, but I'm
not exactly sure.
I'm pretty sure I mentioned it,maybe even on the last episode,
(37:30):
but 70% of parents in 2012, 70%believed that spanking was
necessary, necessary.
So if you can find the reasonwhy your partner is doing a
specific parenting negativeparenting technique, you can
actually work within that systemand say, hey, I agree with the
(37:51):
values that we're trying toteach, I just don't necessarily
agree with the means.
Right, and I might not be rightabout that, maybe I'm
completely off here, but Ireally feel like this is a.
You know, we agree here.
We just have to find a commonground.
Third phase of here H-E-A-R isacknowledge their perspective.
This is time when you give yourairtime, the time when you're
(38:13):
talking, because inconversations, oftentimes both
parties especially in conflictand debate, both parties are
just waiting to say what theirpiece.
They're waiting to talk, andthis is really, really
ineffective communication.
When we're waiting to talk, wedon't listen, and so what you're
going to do is you're going toactually turn your opponent I
(38:35):
hate to use that word, butthat's what it is.
When you're disagreeing,oftentimes it feels like they're
your opponent, yourconversation partner.
You're going to turn them intoa listener and you're going to
do this by becoming a listeneryourself.
First You're going to modellistening and then you're going
to demonstrate that you have.
So, while they were talking,you are going to hear their
perspective.
You're actually going to beactively listening.
(38:56):
So when they say you know, theonly thing that's going to work
for these kids is spanking,right, that worked for me and
it's the only thing that worksfor kids.
That's the only thing that theyactually pay attention to,
right, you actually listen towhat they said.
You consider their perspectiveHonestly.
You consider it enough.
So you put yourself in theirperspective, enough Empathizing
(39:19):
with it.
Even if you don't empathizewith the action, you empathize
with the perspective that led tothe action, to such an extent
that you can then voice thatback to them.
So, after you've humbledyourself enough to hedge your
statements, you've emphasizedthe area of agreement.
Then you're going to give theirtime airtime.
You're going to give theirperspective airtime.
I hear what you're saying, thatyou feel sometimes like you feel
(39:42):
like if you don't spank, thenyour kids never going to listen,
but that's the only thing thatkids respond to.
You feel like you onlyresponded to your parents when
they spanked you.
I hear you.
I think that, like you, have avalid perspective here and that,
along with the hedging, is soincredibly disarming, because
all of us just want to be hearddeep down.
(40:02):
Your kid just wants to be heard, your partner just wants to be
heard, and so when you actuallyhear them that's why the acronym
is here and then model to themthat you've heard them hey,
here's your perspective.
And then I add a little note tothis A, you ask them for
clarification and confirmationand say, hey, am I getting that
(40:23):
right?
Is that your perspective?
I just want to make sure that Iunderstand, because I really do
want to understand yourperspective here.
It allows them the space toactually hear you because
they've been heard.
People will not hear untilthey've been heard.
People will not seek tounderstand until they have been
understood Period.
We're all just humans and so ifyou really want to be heard and
(40:45):
understood, you have to hearand understand.
That's fundamental.
So you're going to humbleyourself enough to hedge.
You're going to emphasize youragreement, your understanding,
knowledge of their perspectiveand make sure that you actually
get it right.
You're going to ask forclarification if you don't.
And then and finally, you aregoing to give the alternative,
and this is where we have toreframe it, not as a something
(41:08):
that they shouldn't do, but assomething they should do.
Instead, look for positivediscipline strategies, whether
that's negative consequenceswhatever, negative consequences,
natural consequences, whateverand reframe to the positive.
So you're going to say nexttime that she does XYZ, next
time that he does XYZ, I feelthat we should really just let
(41:32):
him experience the consequencesof his actions.
Next time that he gets a badgrade on the test, whatever,
instead of doing this groundingwhatever, we should just let him
fail.
Maybe that's really what heneeds.
He needs to have thatexperience and maybe that's how
he's going to finally learn.
(41:53):
Now your partner may disagreewith you, but you've done,
you've now communicated withthem so effectively that it's
very unlikely that they're goingto disagree with you in an
aggressive manner or they'regoing to shut you down.
And even if they disagree withyou in the moment, your words
are going to stick around for alot longer bouncing around, and
they're not again.
So when it comes to Jason,specifically the four-year-old
(42:14):
son with Max and your partner,who's, in this case, kind of the
opposite, more permissive let'sjust go through.
I'm going to walk you through.
I could probably do this forall three of them, but I'm just
going to do it for you, jason.
Here's how I do it.
Humble first, hey, I notice withour four-year-old a lot of
times you kind of just it feelslike you just kind of give in to
(42:37):
whatever he wants.
Maybe I'm totally getting thatwrong, maybe I just don't see it
.
That's just what it feels liketo me and I don't know.
But it feels like that couldmaybe be leading to some
confusion for him, because Idon't tend to do that hedging.
I know that we both want ourson to be happy.
(42:59):
I know that we both reallyvalue that he is kind and
compassionate and I see so manyways in which you're doing that
so well.
I know that that's a goal and Ishare that goal with you.
I share that hope for him.
Emphasizing agreement,acknowledging perspective In
this case.
I don't know what your partnerhas just communicated, but I'm
going to just take a stab at it.
(43:19):
I can hear that when you'redoing that, you feel like what
you're really doing is justgetting through those hard
moments so that you can teachthe skills later on.
I understand that.
It makes perfect sense to me.
Is that what you're saying?
I just want to make sure that Iunderstand.
Reframe to the positive.
Okay, great, I'm glad that Iunderstand.
(43:40):
I think next time we shouldmaybe try to hold that boundary
for a little bit longer, tobuild up the frustration,
tolerance, before we give inReframe to the positive.
What do you want me to do?
Is your partner going to fixthemselves overnight?
Absolutely not.
But with a framework like here,you actually can get to the core
(44:02):
heart of the disagreement,because the disagreement very
rarely is on values.
If you had a fundamentaldisagreement on values with your
partner, you guys probably didnot talk enough before you got
married.
To be honest, I don't mean thatyou have to end your marriage,
but then we're going to have todo work in therapy and marriage
counseling outside of justparenting.
If parenting is just themanifestation of a fundamental
(44:25):
disagreement of values, thenit's not a parenting problem.
It's a relationship problemthat we have to solve Most times
.
It's not that Most times theproblem in the relationship or
the problem with parentingrepresents a practicality issue.
Parents disagree on thepracticality of achieving their
long-term goals for their kidsand embodying their values for
(44:50):
their kids.
With a framework like here, whenyou emphasize agreement and you
acknowledge their perspectiveand you hedge your statements
and you reframe to something asan alternative, rather than just
saying hey look, this is just apractical difference that we
have.
I really feel like if we learntogether, as I kind of outlined
for Melissa, if we learn tocommunicate more effectively, if
(45:14):
we seek to have a win-winmindset here, a lot of this
practicality stuff is just goingto get washed out into the
bridge.
One more note here we're at theend of the episode.
But one more note and I justfeel like if you've gotten this
far in this episode, it's rightfor me to say that note is it is
okay for your partner to parentdifferently than you.
A lot of the stuff that we talkabout is related to having even
(45:38):
if your partner is notparenting in what I would define
as particularly positive goodparenting.
It's okay.
A lot of us think we have torest in the knowledge that our
kids are pretty resilient andthat the primary thing that our
kids need is one secure,attached relationship with a
caregiver.
Then, secondarily, they willfind secure, attached
(46:00):
relationships with caregiversoutside the home as well.
If you have a partner who justis never going to be on the same
page with you on this, you'renot necessarily screwing up your
kid.
If your partner is hitting yourkid, if they're being violent.
I think that warrants morepause and conversation and
definitely seeking counselingand therapy.
(46:20):
You want to stop that.
You want to end that.
If it's something as simple asmy partner is just kind of
shaming me with their language,or my partner is just a yeller,
or my partner is really sounaccommodating, they haven't
done their self work and theykind of take their trauma out on
our kids, sometimes in negativeways related to how they frame
(46:41):
things.
My partner isn't quite as bodypositive as I want them to be.
My partner doesn't reallysubscribe to gentle parenting
this, that and the other.
A lot of that stuff is okay.
I think ideally, both partnerswould be on the same page.
I think it's going to be astrain on your relationship if
you don't get on the same pageto some extent.
That's why I do episodes likethis.
But your kid is going to beokay.
(47:02):
Your kid is going to be okayand just knowing that you are
out there doing the good work isenough.
It's enough, good enough.
Parenting is the best type ofparenting.
None of us are perfect parents.
No child is going to have aperfect childhood.
You and your partner are goingto violate your fundamental
tenets and values at times.
But really, if you cannot geton the same page, it does not
(47:26):
mean that your kid is going tobe screwed up for the rest of
their life.
It just doesn't.
And so take rest in that, doall the things that I'm saying
absolutely.
And if none of it works in theend, just rest in the knowledge
that being a secure, attentive,attached caregiver who cares for
your child's basic needs, whois a steady rock of resiliency,
who is a person who they can goto when they are in those toxic
(47:48):
stress moments to make themnon-toxic, that's what your
child needs from you.
And if your partner cannot liveup to that standard because of
their past or whatever else, orthey just haven't done their
work, that is okay.
It's okay for them to be on adifferent journey and your child
is not going to be messed up byhaving parents who approach
parenting differently.
All of us, every single personlistening to this right now had
(48:10):
two parents who or I don't knowif you had two parents, but if
you had two parents or twocaregivers of some kind, they
approach parenting differentlyin some ways, and that's okay.
If you only had one caregiver,that's also okay, and that's
further evidence of the factthat single parents raise
resilient, attached, healthykids all the time.
(48:31):
And so if you don't think thatyou know you can possibly do
this on your own, you can, andso just rest in that, and that's
where I'm going to end theepisode, just knowing that you
are enough.
Your best is enough.
You will never totally changeyour partner's perspective on
everything that's work that theyhave to do, but you are enough.
Rest in that, friends, we areat the episode.
(48:52):
End the end of the episode, Ishould say, on how to help your
partner give on the same pagewith you, how to navigate
partner conflict as it relatesto parenting.
This has been a little bit of alonger episode.
I really appreciate you guyssticking with me through the end
and, as I said, sort of in themiddle or maybe at the beginning
I don't remember exactly when.
If you are interested in thefull workshop 90 minute workshop
(49:13):
on this topic I do have itinside of my membership.
All you have to do is join themembership and you will get
access to that workshopinstantly because it is a replay
.
It's something that we havedone in the past.
Otherwise, I really hope thatthis episode has been helpful to
you If it has, do all of thethings I said at the mid-roll.
Share it with a friend, shareit on social media, read a
review, do all that stuff.
(49:34):
And yeah, this episode has beenlong enough, so I'm going to
stop talking and let you getback to your day.
I know you guys are busyparents.
Take care.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.