Thresholds of Change

Harry brings to the discussion a four-part model for skillfully navigating change.

Show notes:

• Thresholds of Change by Rebecca Borland Reynolds and Connolly Fox
• ADKAR: A Model for Change in Business, Government and our Community by Jeffrey M. Hiatt
• PROSCI
• Kübler-Ross Change Curve®
• Liminal Thinking by Dave Gray

Episode Transcript

Harry (00:00):
I think it is seeing clearly and looking at the facts

(00:04):
as they are, rather than wedemand that they"should be,"
which puts us in a much strongerposition to participate in
change.

Narrator (00:21):
You're listening to Traction Heroes.
Digging In to Get Results withHarry Max and Jorge Arango.

Harry (00:31):
It is most excellent to see you once again, Jorge, I
have to say.

Jorge (00:36):
It's always a treat, Harry.
I'm very glad to, once againmake the time to do this with
you.

Harry (00:43):
I think one of the things I'm most excited about in this
work is that I've noticed thatI'm in, I'm learning
intentionally much more than Iused to.
I used to go ahead and readbooks, and watch YouTube videos,
and listen to podcasts andwhatnot to learn things, but I
noticed I've become much, muchmore intentional about it.

(01:05):
And I'm sure you're a far betternote taker than I am: I just
chicken scratch everywhere andfile cards galore.
So anyhow, I wanna sharesomething from a woman by the
name of Rebecca BorlandReynolds.
And it's on the topic of change,which is so central to all of

(01:27):
our lives now.
It's a little long, so let mejust dive straight into it if I
may.
Okay.
"Our ability to see the changeprocess, name it and talk about
it, increases our innate abilityto face change and reap its full
benefits.
Toward this purpose, I created amodel based on what I had seen

(01:50):
occurring in the change processitself.
Using the model, this bookreveals the universal process of
change and helps you advanceyour ability with it in all the
changes you face." Jumping aheada little bit here.
"The thresholds of change modelgives language for the

(02:10):
progression of change, therepeating sequential pattern all
change moves through.
The model is composed of fouriterative stages: instigation,
the liminal, metabolization, andmanifestation.
The threshold between thesestages signify major landmarks

(02:32):
in changes progression.
Like cairns on the trail orlocks on a waterway, these
thresholds are key, and not onlydo they show where we are in the
change process, but they alsoindicate an energetic shift
within us, like heated water,reaching the boiling point.
The shift means that a differentinteraction with the change

(02:56):
process is called for.
Here is a basic explanation ofthe four thresholds and their
stages.
At the beginning, change isbeing instigated.
The instigation threshold may bemarked by a period of
disorienting and destabilizingevents, or by the moment of a
catastrophic one.

(03:17):
How we respond to these eventsdetermines how long the
instigation stage lasts, as wellas what our experience of it
will be.
Next comes the liminalthreshold, marked by letting go.
Both profound loss and moreroutine loss are hallmarks of
crossing over.
The liminal stage is agestational period where the

(03:40):
change is incubated with littleinput or direction from us.
Indeed, the liminal stage takesplace in the dark of the knowing
mind, like the juice of grapesin the cask or seed under the
soil that simply needs time tosit in a cool, dark place to
become wine or a plant.

(04:00):
From there, the change, like theseed deep in the soil, suddenly
sprouts bursting into light intothe light of the day.
This marks the metabolizationthreshold.
During the metabolization stage,the change is being integrated
by the system, whether by anindividual or a group.
The system practices andexercises the change in

(04:22):
different forms to fullyincorporate it.
And finally, the change ismanifest.
The manifestation threshold ismarked by the change now
effortlessly expressed in actionand being through a form suited
to it.
In the manifestation stage, thechange process itself is

(04:42):
complete and comes to rest for atime.
Of course, the cycle endlesslyrepeats itself, and so in
manifestation, we watch for thesigns that instigation is coming
again."

Jorge (04:57):
That's really powerful.
You've already mentioned theauthor's name.
What's the name of the book?

Harry (05:03):
It won't be a surprise.
It's called The Thresholds ofChange.
I stumbled on this book.
It was one of the companies thatI worked with, brought the
speaker on to give a talk, andI'm like,"Huh, I wonder who that
is." And then I found out shewrote this book.
So, I thought,"Oh, I'll just bea responsible person and read

(05:26):
the book before the talk" andwas blown away by the general
applicability and how pertinentthis topic is and how she's
approaching it.
Because it's not like the PROSCIor the ADKAR models have
changed.
Like, it's not a prescriptivechange model.
It is a descriptive change modeland it covers both the

(05:47):
intellectual and emotionalaspects of it, much more like
the Elizabeth Kübler-Ross modelof change in grief work.

Jorge (05:56):
The first thought that comes to my mind on hearing you
say this is, when you describedit as a universal process of
change, I thought, this aspiresto be applicable to all kinds of
change.
But when you talked about thefour thresholds, it felt to me

(06:16):
like this was change that wasbeing imposed upon you as
opposed to change that you'reinitiating, because it's like
about acceptance.
It's like, I'm going throughthis thing that I don't know
that I wanna be going throughand it's disorienting and then I
let go and then it's starting tointegrate into the system and
then finally it's,"Okay, it'spart of me." But that feels like

(06:37):
the kind of change that is doneto you as opposed to the kind of
change that you've initiated.
Is that not the case here?

Harry (06:44):
It's definitely not the case.
Obviously, there's a differentemotional valence to the kind of
change that's being done to youversus the kind of change you're
doing to the world.
The book covers both of themreally well and paints a much
more nuanced picture of the roleof change in our lives as it is

(07:05):
coming in from the outside or aswe ourselves are instigating it
and manifesting it in our lives.
Part of what I loved about theway that Rebecca Reynolds talks
about it is, she, in very simplelanguage, is able to paint a
picture of, it's not one anddone: all of us are experiencing

(07:26):
change in one of these fourstages at various points,
whether it's externally drivenor internally driven in all
sorts of different ways at allsorts of different times, and
it's cyclical.
So, this is almost like afractal view into the process.
But if you step away from anindividual person or a team or

(07:49):
an organization, change ishappening all over the place all
the time.
And sometimes the instigationare long, sometimes the
metabolization, which Iunfortunately labeled digestion,
was long.
Like these, they're not fixedperiods.
And depending on the change,each of these thresholds, or as

(08:10):
she refers to them as likelocks, these phase gates or
whatnot, can be shorter orlonger, thicker or fatter, and
they can be layered on top ofeach other.

Jorge (08:23):
Does she provide guideposts or signals that allow
us to be on the lookout for aphase shift?

Harry (08:34):
She does, and I'm probably not gonna do a good job
of trying to call those into theforeground right now.
But each of these phases, shedoes a good job of expanding on
it in a significant way.
So you can look at what thealerts or the messages or the

(08:55):
signals are, and she talks aboutthose different types of signals
or messages or alerts in each ofthose four phases as well.
So I think she is veryintentional about laying out the
macro level process, laying outwhether it is something that's
happening to you or you arehappening to it, and also what

(09:20):
it means to transition from oneto the next, whether it's a
rapid phase transition or a slowphase transition and what it
would mean to look at thesignaling or messaging or alerts
that would tell you whetheryou're moving from one place to
the next.

Jorge (09:37):
One of the things that feels to me inherent to this
model, and again, I don't thinkI understand it in enough depth
to say anything interesting orsmart about it, but just in
hearing your, brief clip there,one of the things that came out
to me is that implied in themodel is the idea that you are

(10:04):
only out on the effective sideof change once you've gone
through the stages.
If you get stuck in the liminalstage where everything feels
disorienting or you feel,"Oh mygosh, things keep shifting on
me," you're not gonna be veryeffective, are you?

Harry (10:24):
Right.
And that's why I started it witha paragraph that actually was
not directly part of the readingthat I had pulled out, but is a
part of the book.
Because it talks about...
let me just reread it:"Ourability to see the change
process, name it and talk aboutit, it increases our innate
ability to face change and reapits full benefits." Because it

(10:44):
allows you not to be stuck init.
It allows you to step back andhave a view from the, shore of
the river to see what'shappening, because otherwise
you're in the river, in thewater and you're splashing
about.
So once you're able to see andrecognize that there are these
phases and you can be indifferent places, I think that's

(11:06):
orienting, in a sense,

Jorge (11:08):
Yeah.
There's a parallel there withthe grief model in that, if
there are different states, andyou can name the state that
you're in, then you're past the,"I can't even" thing, right?
It's like you, hopefully, you'renot paralyzed, in the same way.
You might not be very functionalyet, but at a minimum you can

(11:30):
see the broad outline of thesituation in some way.

Harry (11:36):
Yeah, and you may get a little solace from standing back
and saying,"Well, maybe this toowill pass." And and then, what
would it look like if it were topass.
I think another thing thatjumped out at me from this

reading (11:50):
first off, she right up front deals with the fact and,
really gives credit toKübler-Ross as inspiration for
recognizing that this model isin, I wouldn't say derivative of
Kübler-Ross's grief model, butit's certainly inspired by that

(12:10):
in recognizing that most peoplego through that grief model in
one way or another, and in theexperience of change, it's very
similar in this particularregard.
But I think in reading the book,the thing that really snapped me
to the grid and caused me tothink,"Huh, maybe we need to

(12:32):
explore this a little bitfurther," was her use of the
term liminal, which of coursereminded me of our mutual
friend, Dave Gray and his bookLiminal Thinking.
And she looks at the idea ofinstigation as the phase of the
changes beginning.
And then she looks at thisnotion of metabolization as the

(12:57):
change is being digested, andthen she looks at the notion of
manifestation as the change isblossoming or becoming real, but
then she calls the second stageliminal rather than something
like internalization.

(13:19):
And when I read it, I was like,"Oh, that's a really interesting
choice to have it facing inwardrather than look at it through a
process lens." And I'm stilltrying to understand the
difference between what shemeans by this liminal stage of
its gestating under the soil andhow I would think of it as a

(13:43):
process of internalizing what'shappening.

Jorge (13:48):
I'm trying to play in my mind as you're talking, I'm
trying to play back situationsin which I've gone through a
major change.
And like you were saying,there's a different valence if
it's a change that is beingimposed on me against my will
versus a change that I'm drivingand that I'm excited about.
And perhaps what they both havein common is that in either

(14:11):
situation, you're probablyhandling well, If you're
anything like me you're probablyhandling the transition without
equanimity.
And understanding that there arephases, at a minimum, can allow
you to step back and still themind in such a way that you can

(14:35):
go through the change withouteither being distraught if it's
something really bad that'shappened or euphoric and
therefore, unskillful if it'ssomething that you're like
really energetic about.
And the word liminality, whenyou first said that, it did seem

(14:59):
to me to fit there becauseagain, when I was projecting in
my mind back to situations inwhich I've been going through
change of either kind, one ofthe first things that I've had
to deal with is a change in howI perceive my identity.

(15:19):
And liminality to me, speaks ofhaving one foot in one world and
another foot in another world.

Harry (15:28):
Ah, yes.

Jorge (15:29):
I've gone through that experience many times in my
life.
I've, I've, moved countriesseveral times in my life, and
have been in a liminal spacemany times like that.
So, that word liminality is onethat I certainly can relate to
and I can see why it's part ofthe model.

Harry (15:51):
Yeah, it really jumped out at me as a calling card for
something being different in howto think about change from her
point of view.
And the industry standard kindof, I dunno, calling something
an industry standard, butcertainly, the PROSCI model of

(16:13):
change and then the ADKAR modelof change, if you think about
organizational change or youthink about even personal change
in the context of anorganization, right?
There's a good chance you'regonna pick from one of the two
things I just mentioned.
And yet, they don't help in thisway to make it clear what's

(16:34):
happening and how you mightwanna think about relating to
it.

So, for example, ADKAR: awareness, desire, knowledge, (16:39):
undefined
ability, reinforcement.
A-D-K-A-R, right?
That's what it means, and it's avery effective model for change
in...
the subtitle of the book is AModel for Change in Business,
Government, and Community.
When you bring a change agent into help you with massive change,

(17:01):
there's a good chance they'rePROSCI trained or they're very
aware of ADKAR.
But they've never felt right tome.
Like something always seemedmissing, and it's because I
think I was never able topersonally relate to them.
They felt institutional ordia...
Not even, diagnostics is not theright word, but there was

(17:25):
something white coat about them.
And this, model that RebeccaBorland Reynolds is putting
forward with thresholds ofchange to me feels very much
like something I can relate to,down to the example you just
raised, like having a foot ineach world, right?
As an information architect anddesigner and you even...

(17:47):
forget about the two countries,like you and I professionally
live with feet in differentworlds every day, and our job is
to translating for people sothat they can make better sense
of what's going on as we try tobridge the gap between whether
it's, business or civic oreducation or whatnot, and the

(18:09):
world of design and service andour product development.

Jorge (18:14):
So speaking of translating for people, we've
gotten feedback from ourlisteners and we're really
thankful for everyone who'sgiven us feedback that one thing
that they would appreciate is ifwe could bring some of these
ideas home.
And you, and I have talked aboutthe snow chain as an image for

(18:42):
getting traction, right?
So let's slap a set of snowchains on this model.
How can folks use this to gainmore traction?

Harry (18:53):
Yeah.
From maybe the overly simplisticmodel of all of the change
that's going on in our personaland professional lives right
now, I think at least memorizingthat there are these four key
phase transitions and looking atwhat's going on when there's a
reorg in the office, there's alayoff, some of us might be

(19:17):
directly affected by thesethings.
Or there's an acquisition orsomebody decides that a new
technology needs to be broughtin.
Somebody needs to bring in somemajor payroll system or some
major HR system.
We're all going to go throughthese thresholds of change and

(19:41):
memorizing them by name andremembering that they exist and
that there are signals that tellus where we are in the process,
I personally think puts us in amuch, much stronger position to
be a useful contributor topositive change.

Jorge (20:01):
So what I'm hearing there is, somehow internalizing the
model, so that you can selflocate when you're going through
this situation, might help.
The question that comes to mind,and maybe, we can wrap it up
with this one, is the situationsthat you described there, like a
reorg or a layoff or a newsystem being brought in, those

(20:23):
are very obvious.
Like you know that change ishappening because it's like,
"Hey, there's a reorg.
The pink slips are going out orwhatever." What about situations
in which the change ishappening, but maybe it's not as
obvious yet that you need tostart thinking about this

(20:44):
framework?
Maybe the signals aren't quiteas strong yet, right?
Like maybe the seeds are therefor the change, but it hasn't
fully sprouted somehow.

Harry (20:56):
I think that's a great call out because sometimes in
the spirit of Sherlock Holmesand Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, it's
often not the signals that youget, it's the ones that aren't
there that should be there.
Right?
And so one of the companies I'mworking with right now is trying

(21:17):
to find product market fit on anew technology and they are not
seeing people that are standingup and writing checks.
Now, if you're on the sidelinesof that business, that's a very
strong absence of a signal,which means change may be
coming.

(21:38):
Now, it's maybe a dark example,but I think it's a great way of
preventing yourself from beingshocked if in fact change does
happen.

Jorge (21:48):
This feels...
the topic overall, but thisparticular part of it, feels
like yet another instance of oneof the running themes in our
conversations, which is aboutincreasing our awareness and
opening our sensorium and ourprocessing abilities to like
really see clearly what it isthat is happening.

Harry (22:11):
A hundred percent.
And I think it is seeing clearlyand looking at the facts as they
are, rather than we demand thatthey"should be," which puts us
in a much stronger position toparticipate in change.

Jorge (22:31):
That feels like a good place to wrap it up.
This is a really interestingframework.
It's one that I'm going to readup on more and use myself
because I'm always changing.
It's a constant, right?
The only thing that doesn'tchange Harry.

Harry (22:47):
Yeah.
Great.
Thank you.
I really, I was so excited whenI found this one.
I'm glad to have an opportunityto share it with you and folks
that may be listening in.

Jorge (22:58):
Thank you so much.

Narrator (23:02):
Thank you for listening to Traction Heroes
with Harry Max and Jorge Arango.
Check out the show notes attractionheroes.com and if you
enjoyed the show, please leaveus a rating in Apple's podcasts
app.
Thanks.