Applying the 12 Dimensions of Culture | Part 2 - Unlocking Cultural Agility with Marco Blankenburgh

Episode Transcript
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Marco Blankenburgh (00:01):
he once called me and he said hey, marco
, I'm stuck with a coachingrelationship.
I can't help my coacheediscover why she is in the
situation that she's in at work.
I think it's intercultural.
Would you mind just spendinghalf an hour with her and see if

(00:22):
you could use yourintercultural lens to unlock it?
So I said sure, and so we goton a call and it became clear
very quickly that there was acultural disconnect between her
and her colleagues and I startedto ask her questions and I
started to feel that there weremaybe some of the 12 dimensions

(00:44):
at play.
And it became there wereactually two dimensions and one
of them was the status dimension.
She was a senior leader in afinancial institution, but she
was the only person from hercultural heritage and she was a
woman in a senior position in afinancial institution, and the

(01:08):
status dimension was, you know,flashing light, you know bright,
as she was speaking about hersituation.
Welcome to the unlockingcultural agility podcast, where
we bring you insights andstories from some of the most
advanced interculturalpractitioners working around the

(01:28):
world to help you becomeinterculturally agile and
succeed in today's culturallycomplex world.
I'm your host, marcoblankenberg, international
director of knowledge works,where, every day, we help
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world.

Shelley Reinhart (01:58):
Welcome to the Unlocking Cultural Agility
podcast.
We're so glad you're back withus, and today we are recording
the second session on the 12dimensions of culture.
So if you have not listened tothe first, we just encourage you
to stop.
Right now.
Listen to the first one, whichgoes into so much detail and

(02:21):
depth about each dimension,great stories.
But we're here today with MarcoBlankenberg, the International
Director of KnowledgeWorks, andhe's going to walk us through
kind of the 12 dimensions on amuch deeper level, how you can
use them in just so many ways.
So we're going to start offwith that.
Welcome, Marco.

(02:41):
Great to have you back.

Yeah, it is great to be back, especially
since we get to do part two ofthe 12 Dimensions.

Yes, I've been looking forward to this, Really
looking forward to this.
We went in a lot of detail lastsession but just to start us
off, could you refresh where weleft off in part one and sort of
um?

yeah, go through them again, yeah yeah,
and we do indeed, as you said,shelly encourage people to to
listen to the first one.
But if you say I'm just goingto keep going, then, uh, here's
a mini summary.
So the 12 dimensions are partof our intercultural agility
framework.
We we call it the ICI frameworkand it's trying to give you a

(03:30):
language, a neutral language,that answers the question who am
I as a cultural human being?
So the two tools combined thethree colors of worldview and
the 12 dimensions or thecultural mapping inventory give
you a comprehensive framework.
So what we always say if youhave those two tools in hand,

(03:58):
you can first of all answer thatquestion for yourself who am I
as a cultural human being?
Gives you a language, gives youa framework, gives you
measurable points, but also youcan pretty much figure out, I
would say, 95% of anyintercultural situation using
this framework.
And we talked about the 12dimensions last time.
They are continua or opposites,they have two polarities, but

(04:19):
you're typically anywhere onthat spectrum of that polarity.
There are 12 of them and evenyesterday, somebody saying this
was amazing.
How do I remember these 12?
And we do have a cheat sheet ofa quick summary of all of them.
And, yes, 12 is a lot, but wefelt we wanted something that

(04:42):
really gives you all thelanguage you need to explain
intercultural situations.
So yes, 12 is a little bit of along list, but I can guarantee
you, once you get familiar withthem, it is so helpful to have
all 12.
And we made it a little bitharder for ourselves by sticking
to the 12.

(05:02):
But the comprehensiveness of itis beautiful.
It works so incredibly well andwe gave some examples in the
first episode on how that cameabout, because we stand on the
shoulders of fantastic peoplewho've gone before us in the 80s
and 90s in discovering how wequantify and explain cultural

(05:24):
differences.
The only difference withknowledge works is we took it to
the personal level.
So the 12 dimensions, combinedwith the three pillars, are
really there to help you firstanswer that question who am I as
a cultural human being?
Not negating the fact that weall have a passport.
We all belong to certaincultural groupings in society

(05:48):
and that's important.
But what we have discovered inour work in over 70 countries
around the world is that that isnot always a best starting
point to start a newrelationship.
So what we're saying is startwith who's that person in front
of you, be curious, ask themquestions, discover, get to know

(06:10):
, build that relationship and inthe context of that
relationship you might discoveraffiliations they have or how
proud they are about theirpassport or not, and all these
other things.
But do that in the context ofrelationship.
So we're sort of reversing whatis the normal way of engaging.
Hey, where are you from to know, be curious about the unique

(06:35):
person, their unique journeythat is in front of you?

yes, I love that.
I love that.
That is our focus atKnowledgeWorks and this
assessment really helps do that.
It really gives us the language.
So what is it not for?
What are the 12 dimensions?
How can it should not be used.
Is there any thoughts on thatbefore we begin?

Yeah, yeah, the key here is that we've
purposefully over the years now,where we've done thousands of
these assessments, we reallydon't want to use it to start
sort of painting the world mapwith these 12 dimensions.
We really want to stay true tothis core idea at KnowledgeWorks

(07:25):
that we are all on a uniquecultural journey and we want our
tools to be used for thatpurpose.
So don't start saying, oh, allArgentinians are like this and
all Australians are like that.
They don't exist.
The average Argentinian doesn'texist.
The average Australian doesn'texist.
The average argentinian doesn'texist.
The average australian doesn'texist.

(07:46):
There are generalizations youcan make about countries and
regions of the world, but wework predominantly with ngos,
academic institutions, corporateentities, communities of faith,
and in there we we want humanbeings to connect with human
beings, and only then do we wantto say now, use what you've
learned to build relationship, arelational bridge, and then use

(08:10):
the same tools to build culturetogether, and that's really
beautiful.
So that's where we wantedpeople to take the tools and
that's why we have group reportsfor both the Three Colors of
Worldview and the culturalmapping inventory.
So please don't.
Also, the other thing I wantedto say is that there are.

(08:33):
Yeah, some people have a strongpreference for, let's say,
direct versus indirectcommunication, but at the same
time we we often have at least alittle bit of one side and
maybe a lot of the other side,or we're somewhere in the middle
where we have 50-50 spreadbetween direct and indirect
communication.

(08:54):
So you can't just say, oh, allpeople from this country are
direct and all the people fromthis other country are indirect.
So we need to be a bit morenuanced and not so black and
white.
When we use 12 dimensions andeven if that's the other thing,

(09:15):
even if somebody is, let's say,shows strong direct in
communication on theirassessment, the tool doesn't
tell you how easy it is for thatperson to pull out an indirect
communication repertoire.
So it's just a preference point.

(09:37):
And the last thing I want tosay it's definitely not a
personality tool, so don't useit to say oh, this is my, this
is the cultural version of my esBriggs or of my the cultural
version of my my disc profile.
It's just a moment in time andwe expect actually that you

(09:59):
learn to shift.
So even if you were an indirectcommunicator when you took the
assessment, let's say learningto become more direct if that's
necessary.
That's our goal, that's what wecall intercultural agility, and
that's where it becomes fun touse the tools, because that's

(10:20):
where it becomes very practicaland very valuable for
relationships for organizations,for jobs, that people have
projects, et cetera.

That's so good , thank you.
And how is this tool connectedto the three colors of worldview
assessment?
They're separate, they'redifferent.
How do they connect?
They're separate, they'redifferent.

How do they connect?
They do connect but we haven'twritten a book about it because
the way they connect, there arelike infinite possibilities
doing that which empowers me orgives me influence, those three
drivers, discovering which onesare your primary secondary

(11:09):
drivers is really important.
And then if you complete the 12dimensions in the cultural
mapping inventory afterwards youstart to look at both of them
together.
Typically the people that thatdo that, they start to connect
the dots themselves.
They will say, oh, I'm showingup in this way on the three

(11:32):
colors world view, I'm showingup in this way on the 12
dimensions.
This makes sense for me in thefollowing way so we always lead
people into their ownself-discovery.
We don't want to dictate that tothem.
We don't want to say if you'rehere on the three colors, you
must be in this preference pointon the 12th dimension.

(11:53):
So unfortunately it's notsimple enough let's put it that
way to write the book about it,the book about it.
But it is beautiful if you canspend the time just workshopping
or coaching people through thatto find the connect between the
two tools and it's superenriching.

(12:13):
Three Colors is more yourdeeper cultural drivers.
The 12 Dimensions is more yourpragmatic, cultural day-to-day
thinking, speaking and acting.

Yes, thank you for clarifying that, and I love
the nuance.
That is not a one-to-onecorrelation.

We stay open .

Yeah, so let's move to relationship management
.
And let's talk about how the 12dimensions of culture just
practically help us inrelationships.

Yeah, there's so many examples.
I think even just a few daysago, I had a conversation with a
gentleman who was using theassessment with somebody from
the Latin part of the world, andthey had a very interesting

(13:11):
conversation that taught me alot.
One of our dimensions is calledexpression, and expression has
to do with reveal versus concealand it's all about can you
express your, the emotions thatyou feel inside?
And the person that that was,uh, was looking at this said,

(13:36):
yeah, but I, I am veryboisterous, I'm very present,
and you know there's lots oflaughter and jokes and banter
back and forth, but I show upconcealed.
On the expression dimension andit was really, really

(13:56):
interesting.
So we started talking about itand we realized, yes, sometimes
culturally, the culture gives uspermission to be more animated.
Hall talks about polychronic andthat adds to the boisterous
nature of the culture, wherepeople can speak on top of each

(14:19):
other and conversations go backand forth and they seem to be
interrupting each other.
But that's just how peoplecommunicate, um, and so there's
a lot of energy there.
But then, when we dug deeperinto it, this dimension became
really helpful.
So it's like, yeah, but what ifyou're upset with somebody?
Or what if you're you'refeeling down or you're actually

(14:44):
struggling with something you'reworried?
Would you then reveal that?
And she thought about it andshe said no, I wouldn't.
We are very lively andboisterous and you know there's
lots of energy there, but thosedeeper emotions you would only
reveal in a closed circle or ina very high trust situation, and

(15:07):
that was incredibly helpful.
So, looking at thereveal-conceal of emotions, the
expression dimension, sherealized that she was actually
concealing on her emotions,despite the fact that she was a
very lively communicator becausein her culture, despite the
fact that she was a very livelycommunicator, because in her
culture, that was encouraged.
And I thought that was a reallyhelpful distinction to make,

(15:35):
where there are certain cultureswhere emotions are expressed
and the assumption is if youexpress those emotions, that's
how you truly feel.
In other cultures, what happensis emotions are a tool.
So you express those emotions,but they are actually a tool to

(16:00):
negotiate the price to get whatyou want, to negotiate the price
to get what you want, to keepthe relationship moving forward.
There could be a whole bunch ofreasons for it, but emotions
are a tool and maybe only inclosed circle, high trust
situations would emotions betruly an expression of how you
feel.

(16:20):
So I thought that was just areally interesting discovery
around reveal, conceal emotionsin more of a coaching situation
yes, oh, I love that example.

That's yes, that's really helpful.
Yes, um, what about just oneother thought about of this way
that this could be expressed?
What about dress code?

how is it?

viewed and what's its purpose.

That comes up all the time and the
dimension we typically use first.
Now, there are multipledimensions connected to dress
code, but the one that I findquite helpful to use is the
accountability dimension.
So it's both a combination ofaccountability, as in community,

(17:10):
versus individual.
I'll bring the other ones in.
So, when you dress, what is thepurpose of what you wear?
Is the purpose of what I wearan expression of who I am or who
I want to be perceived to be asan individual, or is what I

(17:35):
wear a representation of thepeople I belong to, so that we
call that more communityaccountability?
So am I accountable to myselfwhen it comes to dress code and
I can pretty much wear anythingthat I deem fit for the
situation from my perspective,or is it really about the

(17:56):
community?
I represent, the company, thetribe, the country, and that
determines what I would wear inthat situation?
and it's fascinating how often,especially people who come from
an individual accountabilityperspective when it comes to

(18:17):
dress code, they come into acommunity accountability setting
and then it causes thisinternal turmoil where they're
forced, quote unquote, to changetheir dress code to fit in with
the community.
But then they say well, I'mlosing part of myself, I'm

(18:37):
losing part of my ability toexpress myself to identify as a
unique human being, um, and thatis hard, especially, you know,
if, if, if you use dress toexpress um, and making that
adjustment is not easy.
But we found that using theaccountability dimension is

(18:58):
typically very helpful.
And the other thing that islinked to that is the destiny
dimension directed destiny,where typically authority
determines what you will do, ordirective destiny is like I'm in

(19:21):
charge of what I will do, whatI will say, and learning that in
certain environments there ismore of a directed destiny
influence on what you wear andthe most obvious place is, for
instance, in the military, inthe police force, the fire
brigade, your lieutenant or thechief tells you what to wear,

(19:46):
and if you show up in jeans as apolice officer, you will be
told to go home.
So it's directed destiny asopposed to directive destiny.
But when it comes to the workenvironment, that's not always
easy to navigate.
But at least if people have theright language to talk about it

(20:07):
, that neutral language, then Ifind people might struggle with
it, but they might then say,okay, I get it.
This is a very different way oflooking at dress and what it
does and what its function is,and I have a neutral language to
talk about it now, and then itbecomes easier for people to

(20:28):
potentially make the changes.

It's so good, it's so practical and instead of
making it a big issue big HRissue, it's just.
If you use this language todiscuss it, there's so much more
understanding around it.
That's huge.

And people might still decide I'm not going
to work here.
Then yeah.
At least they make an informedchoice yeah.

Yes, I just had a thought.
You know, I live in LancasterCounty, pennsylvania, where
there are a lot of Amish andthey are told very specifically
what to dress, how to dress,what to wear, and they are set
apart by the way they dress.
They're immediatelydistinguishable.
Is that so similar to whatyou're saying?

There are other cultures like that too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But that's a great examplebecause I've never been in an
Amish community but I've seen,you know, the movies, the
pictures, etc.
And it's very much communityaccountability which is
expressed in their dress code.
But it's also directed fromabove and you know so, from a

(21:34):
directed destiny point of view,there are correction mechanisms
in place if you don't.
So, that's also part of the….
And I mean, look, it's the samein the world of sports.
If you belong to a sports cluband you don't wear the sweater
of that sports club when youenter the field, you're in

(21:56):
trouble.

Yes, I've seen that firsthand.
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah, that's so fascinating,that's really helpful.
So that's one very practicalexample of how the 12 dimensions
can impact the way you see, ofhow the 12 dimensions can impact
the way you see certain things.

(22:19):
Let's talk about coaching.
Um, how would it, how would itimpact like a coaching situation
?
How could you use them in thatway?

well, we, we actually, uh, three years ago,
we, we designed a whole advancedcoach certification program,
the certificate, in.
Intercultural Coaching, wherecoaches learn to take these
tools and bring them into thecoaching engagement.
And the fascinating thing youinitially think, oh, this is

(22:47):
going to help the coach better,which is true, but actually the
first thing that happens is thecoach learns to reflect on who
they are as a coach and whatthey bring into the relationship
, and then they discover some oftheir biases and that they lean
into a certain solution.

(23:08):
So they might ask questionslike what's the right thing to
do in this situation?
What do do you think which is avery innocence guilt on the
three colors of worldvieworiented question.
So we're working with coachesand we have over 200 coaches in
our network.
That's the first thing theyalways say.
When I get exposed to thesetools, I start to reflect on how

(23:30):
I position myself, how mythought patterns work in the
coaching relationship, the typeof questions I come up with, how
I process what the coachee issaying.
So it always starts there and,to give you an example, one of
our coaches who was not familiarwith the intercultural
framework.
He once called me and he saidhey, marco, I'm stuck with a

(23:56):
coaching relationship.
I can't help my coacheediscover why she is in the
situation that she's in at work.
I think it's intercultural.
Would you mind just spendinghalf an hour with her and see if
you could use yourintercultural lens to unlock it?
So I said sure, and so we got ona call and it became clear very

(24:22):
quickly that there was acultural disconnect between her
and her colleagues and I startedto ask her questions and I
started to feel that there weremaybe some of the 12 dimensions
at play.
And it became there were maybesome of the 12 dimensions at
play and it it became there wereactually two dimensions and one
of them was the, the statusdimension.

(24:43):
She was a senior leader in afinancial institution, but she
was the only person from hercultural heritage and she was a
woman in a senior position in afinancial institution and the
status dimension was, you know,flashing light, you know, bright
as she was speaking about hersituation.

(25:05):
So I introduced it to her and Isaid well, here's one of the
dimensions.
It's about ascribed andachieved and and I explained the
two polarities ascribed asyears of service fraternity
gender can also play a role.
Achieved is you just have theskills, you've got the

(25:27):
credentials, you've worked hardand you earn it.
Earn it.
And she was almost in tears,actually saying, yeah, I will
never penetrate that group ofascribed status leaders because
they don't see me as part of it.
And we started unpacking itfrom that point on and that
really opened up a difficultunderstanding of the situation.

(25:52):
In the end, actually, sheresigned and started her own
advisory company and, lookingback, it was actually an amazing
unlocking of a new future forher.
It was not easy, but thelanguage of the 12 dimensions
helped her realize I need to getout of this situation.

(26:14):
I will never penetrate thatgroup of ascribed status leaders
that I'm not part of.
There's too many hurdles aheadof me and you wish that that
wasn't necessary, but she's nowa very successful independent
financial advisor.

Wow, oh, that's so practical again.
So she's walking into this notunderstanding what's happening.
She's confused and frustrated,but then, once she had the
language to talk about it, itbecame clear what she needed to
do, almost yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Wow, yeah, I'm thinking.

I'm thinking of a of another example in
coaching where, um, where andsome people might find this a
little bit contentious, but adimension, in the coaching world
at least, that is oftenmisunderstood is the destiny
dimension, with directive versusdirected destiny.
So directed is you sort of gettold what to do.

(27:16):
It could be your boss, could bea higher authority, could be
the system.
Directive destiny is more I'min charge.

(27:36):
But the word agency is oftenused in coaching.
And don't get me wrong, Ibelieve in agency, but agency
needs to be cast in the culturalcontext.
But the problem is the wordagency is often cast in a
directive destiny light.
In other words, agency is Icarve my destiny.

(28:00):
I need to have my voice heard,I add my voice to the mix and
I'm part of the decision-makingprocess, especially when it
comes to my future.
And this is a huge issue incoaching.
And I now meet more and morecoaches who get it, who say even
me as a coach, the role I havein the conversation, one of our

(28:23):
previous facilitators andcounselors.
She always used to say are youa sage on the stage, which is
more directed destiny you givepeople your wise counsel, or are
you a guide on the side whichis more directed destiny you you
give people your wise counselor are you a guide on the side,
which is more directive destiny?
I help you, I nudge you and Ihelp you discover your destiny,

(28:44):
but you articulate it, you findit, you drive it and, as coaches
, to learn that you need to bethe guide on the side, as well
as the sage on the stagesometimes and learning how to
culturally decide when to bewhat.
And I meet more maybe it'sbecause I meet predominantly

(29:05):
international coaches who do alot of intercultural coaching
and most of them are saying,yeah, we often get in that
situation where if somebodycomes from a directed destiny,
cultural heritage, they theyhire a coach because they
believe the coach will give themwise counsel and, in some cases
, tell them what to do.

(29:26):
Um, and but the classicalcoaching yeah, the classical
coaching fraternity says no, no,no, no.
The answer is within you.
Ask the questions the coach.
He will discover the path totake and I believe actually it's
a hundred percent, both as a asan inter culturally agile coach
.
You need to discover when.

(29:47):
Which path is the appropriatepath to walk with your coaching
that's refreshing.

Yes, so it can .
So it can be both.
It can be both.

Which can be confusing, because it does mean
that sometimes you can see thecoachee is just longing for you
to say well, have you everconsidered this?
Yes, thank you, I'm going totry it.
And then off they go.

Yes, just how difficult is it for someone
raised in a directed destiny tothen move to somewhere new in a
directive destiny Directedversus directive.

That seems like it would be so challenging.
It is hard.

(30:58):
It's really hard because it canreally in it.
Look, the reality is a directeddestiny environment can be
super efficient.
Some more toxic environments,you would get that.
But in a healthy, directeddestiny environment, the leader
listens to the people, walksaround, gets the stories,
gathers their information and,as a result, when they do tell
you what to do, there is thoughtbehind it, there's information
they've gathered.
It's not just like go and dothis and because I'm the boss,

(31:19):
I'm telling you what to do.
So, healthy, directed destinyenvironments, people trust the
system.
They respect that.
Leaders have their bestinterest in mind.
That could be mom or dad, thatcould be the teacher in the
school, that could be thereligious leader or my boss or
the coach on the on the sportsfield.
And if that all of a suddenfall, falls away, and now you

(31:41):
need to figure it out yourselfand you need to drive it.
And if you don't drive it,people are saying, oh, you're
not proactive enough.
Uh, so it's.
It's actually yeah, and it canbe really difficult to make that
shift if you move from directeddestiny to a directive destiny

(32:02):
context.
I see that and by the way I seethat with international
students a lot so even ouroldest daughter.
she's now graduated.
She was in a superintercultural university and she
said direct to destiny studentswho came into their university
was everything is you pursueeverything yourself, even your

(32:27):
subjects of your degree program.
You could choose them yourself.
You could switch, swap outsubjects if you wanted to and
you had a good argument for it.
You could.
And some students just it'slike a deer in the headlight,
they just didn't know what to dowith that.

I think that's so helpful to understand and to
empathize with the strugglethat would be, you know as
you're working with people in somany different ways, as a
teacher, you know, and lots ofprofessions.
And speaking of that brings meto the one, sort of on the top
of my mind, which is conflictmanagement.

(33:10):
How do the 12 dimensions ofculture help us in conflict and
that, how you know, navigate it?

yeah, it's such an important subject in
today's world.
We have a lot of conflict, alot of friction, um, I I
actually just had a month ago Iwas with a leadership team, um,
and they specifically asked weneed to talk about conflict
management and we have a bit ofan understanding of it from a

(33:39):
psychological point of view, butwe want to unpack a framework
that help us understand it froma cultural point of view.
So can we accurately quantifyand, once we can, can we at
least start to build up our, ourtoolbox to deal with it?
Now you could argue that, outof the 12 dimensions, probably

(34:01):
all of them could lead to aconflict, but probably the most
important ones some of them wehave already talked about, but
the most important ones areprobably four or five out of the
12 that very often lead toconflict.
Or, if I'm not carefullycrafting the engagement or the

(34:22):
structure of my words and mytalking points, I can actually
be the instigator of conflict.
So, for instance, decisionmaking is a big one.
So, for instance,decision-making is a big one.
Very often, when companiesstart moving internationally,

(35:01):
they will move in and out ofcontexts where either the rules
are rigidly adhered to or wherethe rules are more or less a
tool to help relationship movealong, and in the?
If the latter is the case, thenvery likely what will happen is
the rules will sometimes not beapplied, the rules will be
interpreted slightly different,and that can lead to really,
really angry explosions.
So, um, it can you know, I Iremember the um, the uh one

(35:25):
situation which had to do with,with, uh, the sales interface.
So the, the, the rules ofselling and how sales is done
and how promises are made andhow discounts are agreed upon
were made in one country morerules based on its decision
making, and knowing your cousinsand knowing people in the

(35:57):
industry and having a coffeewith them, building up a long
legacy of relationships, andthat sort of greases the wheels,
not in a negative way.
That's just how business isdone.
And then when you all of asudden get those marching orders
from headquarters, it leads toconflict.
There was one situation and thisis this is already dipping into

(36:20):
the sales side of things.
So remember, we worked with acompany I won't mention any
names, but a company that wasvery strict on the rules, very
rules based, in-making, but thewhole sales force came from more
relationship-baseddecision-making parts of the

(36:41):
world and the leader, the salesdirector, allowed us to work
with over 100 of theirsalespeople and we had the
privilege of doing the culturalmapping inventory with them.
And we had the privilege ofdoing the cultural mapping
inventory with them and wediscovered very quickly they're

(37:07):
mainly community accountabilityoriented and relationship based
in their decision making and thecompany was rules based in its
decision making and held eachsalesperson individually
accountable for theirperformance.

Wow, that's some conflict.

It was culturally an impossibility.
It was so hard for them becausethey wanted to sell by spending
time with a potential customer,invite them for a coffee,
sometimes for a meal, build arelationship, hear about their
family and their life and get toknow them and then eventually,
maybe after three meetings, asale might happen.

(37:44):
And that was not possible.
And on top of that, they camefrom a culture where community
accountability was the norm.
So you join a sales team.
What do you do?
You share information with eachother because you are held
accountable as a community, ourteam or our department.

(38:04):
We perform together.
What did the company do?
They held each personindividually accountable, so it
felt so.
It was so difficult for thembecause all of a sudden, by
sharing information aboutclients, that's what they
culturally wanted to do.

(38:24):
But by doing that they wouldactually run the risk that their
colleague would clock the saleand they wouldn't clock the sale
risk that their colleague wouldclock the sale and they
wouldn't clock the set.
And they felt so miserablebecause of that, because you
know they.
It's like betraying their owncultural Heritage, where you

(38:45):
share and you do things togetherand now all of a sudden, nope,
this is my little box, you don'tget any of my information
because I'm going to be measuredon this.
And uh, yeah, so we, we.
When we presented thisinformation to the team leader,
he was actually shocked and herealized we can't change what
headquarters requires from us,but locally we have to create

(39:05):
more us mechanisms we mechanisms, because the worst thing that
was happening for them is thatthey didn't share sales
information, client intel, sothat they could work together to
bring the client in.
So they had to shift the wholeprocess around.
But it started with a bigconflict, to the point where

(39:27):
some of the salespeople actuallywere paying out of pocket to
spend time with the client, sothey would pay for their coffee
or for the meals that they werehaving with the clients.
Because they said that you know, I can't just change the way
I've.
I've done sales all my life.
This is how you do it.
So, yeah, they were.
Some of them are paying seriousmoney out of pocket just to be

(39:50):
true to themselves, culturallywow, marco.

That is so interesting and really sheds
light on what is happening underthe surface that if you don't
have the language to describe it, it's so difficult to pinpoint
what the problem is.
Would you say?
That's true, oh?

absolutely.
Yeah, you were asking aboutconflict.
I think this is especially truewith the communication

(40:32):
dimension.
I think it's yeah, shelley,you've been in sessions as well
and you know the direct versusindirect communication piece.
When it comes to conflict, it'sone of those very quick
triggers triggers.
So, yes, and I'm I'm making it abit black and white now, but by
and large, direct communicatorssee themselves as more
sophisticated, more efficient,more quote-unquote, true to
themselves than indirectcommunicators.
And then indirect communicators, they see themselves as more

(40:53):
sophisticated, morerelationship-centric, more
harmony-oriented, and they findthe direct communicators very
crude, very offensive, notrelationship-centric, very
transactional, and when peopledon't understand that, both are
equally valuable.
We had that with that team thatI was with a month ago where

(41:17):
they are dealing with a majorityof their staff are indirect
communicators, and we found thata lot of the leaders did not
know how to read between thelines or did not know how to ask
gentle, clarifying questionsthat wasn't putting the other
person on the spot.
They also were bad storytellers.

(41:40):
Indirect communicators arereally good storytellers.
So we had to work with theleadership team to say well, as
a direct communicator, you'retransactional, it's about the
facts, it's about the decision,it's about the efficiency and,
as a result, your storytellingsucks.
You have to learn how to.
You have to learn how tostorytell, because the majority

(42:02):
of your workforce is more of anindirect communication
background.
And just recognizing they'reboth beautiful, they're both
necessary and they're bothdepending on the moment and what
we need to talk about.
You need to be able to switchbetween direct and indirect.
And if you start saying thoseindirect communicators, they're

(42:24):
useless, they're withholdinginformation and they're doing it
on purpose, they must have anagenda.
And then the flip side, theindirect communicator saying
those direct communicators theydon't care about relationship
and they're rude andunsophisticated, and that's, of
course, leading to conflict.
Recognizing they're both yesequally important, and then

(42:48):
saying how do I learn this?
How do I learn to stretchacross the dimension?
And the more intercultural yourteam is, the more you need to.

And that sort of segues into managing our
stakeholders, so not only thepeople we work with, but what
have you seen in that realm withthe 12 dimensions and how to
manage?

it.
Yeah, it was fascinating.
I was talking to an oldcolleague of ours last week and
he mentioned oh, I've just comeback from China, and he went on
to tell his story and howvaluable intercultural agility
is for him.
So he went to China with afriend of his, but then he got

(43:39):
all kinds of business ideas.
He was supporting his friend inthe business he wanted to set
up between their two countriesof his, but then he got all
kinds of business ideas.
He was supporting his friend inthe business he wanted to set
up between their two countriesand then he realized, wow,
there's a lot of potential here.
So he started to visit specificfactories and build the
relational bridge and herealized that the need to spend

(44:03):
time was super, super important.
So I asked him, once he hadexplained, he said, yeah, I
visited these factories and hadtea with the manager there and
the founder there, and he had afew factories that he singled
out, so to speak.
And I asked him so what are yougoing to do next?
Well, he said I'm going to keepthe conversation going, going

(44:26):
to make it warm, but then I'mgoing to schedule my next trip
very soon to visit again.
And I asked him.
So how often do you think youneed to visit?
Oh, he said I need to go atleast three times.
And you know he's worked on onour team so he knows our
framework inside out.
But what people don't realizevery often is if they don't know

(44:50):
the intercultural agilityframework, they they will go for
that one visit and they willsay, okay, I've selected my
factory, I'm going to ask thatfactory to give me a quote.
They're going to produce Xnumber of widgets for me,
they're going to ship it overand we're in business.
And it doesn't work that way.
One of our earliestpractitioners and we actually

(45:13):
did a podcast with him he becameone of the most successful
manufacturers of musicalinstruments for manufacturers of
musical instruments and he'sdeveloped.
He's built violins and cellosand and brass and guitars and
basses and you name it, but allthrough outsourced manufacturers

(45:36):
and he's done that over 20, 30years and he won some awards
with.
But he came to our ICIcertification many years ago and
he's built up a network ofmanufacturers all over Asia
China, indonesia, vietnam, etcetera.
And he also told us you know,what it takes is really building

(45:59):
those relationships and goingbeyond just the business
transaction which alludes to oneof our 12 dimensions.
So is, is our relationship justsituational or are they
universal?
But ian has relationships withwith artisans and manufacturers

(46:20):
or builders of musicalinstruments all across Asia and
they trust him, he trusts them.
They've done a lot of work onskill transfer.
He worked with some of the topguitar designers and brought
them to Asia, brought themalongside, and of course, that's
a great honor to be able to dothat and learn from some of the

(46:41):
best and then actually buildinstruments that win awards.
He just started a new brandthat went into canada two years
ago and their first acousticguitar was produced through.
That partnership actually wonthe most innovative acoustic
guitar of that year and ian willsay you know, I use ici, I use

(47:04):
the 12 dimensions all the time,I use the three colors all the
time to build those long-termrelationships wow, I love that
story and I, yeah, I love thatpodcast with ian and we have it
on our podcast list.

Excuse me, podcast list.
You can listen back to that ifyou'd like.
Um, we've been talking so muchabout teams, so you know, yeah,
we do a lot at knowledge workswith high performing
intercultural team development.
How do you use the 12dimensions sort of in that realm
when you're working?

(47:40):
You've sort of mentioned it.
You've mentioned a few things.

Yeah, it's an integral part of first
helping people understand whothey are.
So who am I, who are you?
As my colleague, having thatneutral language, that we're
talking about seeing thatassessment and those preferences
, but then immediately turningit around and saying, now that
we understand each other betterand what that means for those
preferences, but thenimmediately turning it around
and saying, now that weunderstand each other better and

(48:06):
what that means for workingtogether, now, who do we want to
be?
Because ultimately, you can'tallow room for every possible
cultural way of doing things ona team.
You will have to start makingdecisions, otherwise it becomes
a minefield.
And now you're superintelligent about a minefield,

(48:27):
but you're still going to stepon a mine every now and then.
So, as a team, you start withthis is the, this is the full
spectrum, this is the fullplaying field.
But then you have to decide asa team who do we want to be?
And that's where it all comestogether in crafting culture
together.
So for instance, in a retailsales situation, you might say

(48:55):
there are certain rules whenyou're with the customer that we
will never, ever break.
But there are other rules.
There is room for flexibility,and here is how you apply that
flexibility.
And you, as a salesperson onthe on the retail floor, your
flexibility goes this far.

(49:16):
If the client wants more thanwhat you can flex, then you take
it to your supervisor or yourretail manager and they might
then make a discretionary choice, for instance.
So you learn where you are.
But then you need to decide asa team in our work, where do we
want to be on each one of these12 dimensions?

(49:39):
But I'm thinking an example ofone of the universities we
worked with.
They had a very big satellitecampus in one of the Gulf states
and the home base was in theUnited States, and it was a
beautiful process of workingwith the team and they really

(50:05):
came together and we got to thepoint where we had two days of
just exploring each other,having a lot of fun, a lot of
aha moments.
We started to craft their localculture, building some
boundaries and what wasacceptable and unacceptable
behavior, good consensusbuilding.
But then we had to wasacceptable and unacceptable
behavior, good consensusbuilding.

(50:25):
But then we had to flip it andwe say, well, we are a satellite
campus of a US-born universityand now we have a problem
because the university back homedoesn't understand how we need
to function in this context.
So, for instance, ascribedstatus was important.

(50:45):
How do you deal with studentsenrolling in the university who
are coming from influentialfamilies?
And in most cases, if you arefrom a achieved status
environment only, all studentsare equal more or less, but in

(51:05):
the Gulf that wasn't the case.
So the home base unfortunatelydidn't understand the scribe
status and that that wouldinfluence how you deal with the
student and with the family.
That was one thing.
Another thing was how do youdeal with the interface between
the professor and the students?
So there was a misunderstanding.

(51:28):
Professors coming in from theUS, some of them loved sort of
an open door, more egalitarianrelationship with their students
, but the students took that as,instead of situational relating
, the students took a localversion of universal relating.
So in other words, they wouldhang out in the professor's

(51:51):
office and they would expectthat, because that was the case,
they could call the professorat 10 o'clock at night and ask a
question.
And it totally escalated wherethe professors said what have I
done?
Why did they misinterpret myintentions so badly and why are
they so?
Uh, you know hawking my time,and so it was fascinating.

(52:14):
Just talk with the professorsabout the difference between how
the students perceived it andwhat the intention of the
professor was, and how you couldrecalibrate that.
So there was, you know, homebase back home misunderstanding
and we talked about how toeducate the home base.
And then there was thedisconnect between professors

(52:35):
coming in from overseas and thenlecturing locally and then not
understanding the studentdynamics and then realizing
there is actually very livelydynamics sometimes between the
parents and the professor, andknowing when that might happen.
And unfortunately, the mostfrequent connect between parents

(52:57):
and professor happen when thestudent is not doing so well and
yeah, that's another one whereascribed status, especially
influential families and thenthe student doesn't do so well,
then the parents knock on thedoor of the professor in the
hope that they can do somethingabout the grades.
And knowing how to navigatethat is complex, it's not easy.

Those are such great examples.
Yes, you can really see it playout on that university campus
and in businesses and in schoolsand, yeah, those are great
examples.
Did you want to say anythingelse about sales?
Because sales is so tricky, somany companies struggle with

(53:43):
this on an intercultural level.
Is there anything else you justwanted to add about that?

well, maybe, maybe there's one example that
comes to mind that, um, weworked with a large organization
, um and um, I still rememberthe director of marketing came
to me and she had been exposedto some of our intercultural
stuff.
And she came to me she said,listen, I need to present to the

(54:10):
board and I know the board,based on what you've taught us,
I know the board is very honorshame oriented and very
community accountability andthey want to be seen as more
universal in how they relate.
So how do I now structure a newmarketing strategy to, on the

(54:36):
one hand, actually sell productto our target audience, which
was very diverse, and, at thesame time, satisfy the owners of
the business?
So we talked about this and itreally helped her shift the way
she presented.
So how do you present yourmarketing strategy so that the

(55:01):
owners of the business, the nameof the business, the reputation
of the business would beelevated in the community?
There would be, you know, thecommunity would be proud that
this business was part of theircommunity.
The family would be proud thattheir business belonged to them
and that the marketing strategy,with all the billboards and

(55:25):
online marketing and socialmedia, that all of that would
give people a positive referencefor that family and for their
community.
Um, how do you create a businesswhere, on the one hand, you
can't be friends with everybody,but create that that sense of
hospitality in the marketingstrategy that you know we

(55:46):
welcome you, we have space foryou and, yes, you know you'll
come to us because you want tobuy our products but more a
universal approach to relatingas opposed to a situational
approach to relating, where youknow customer comes in, you
learn the tricks for the salesinterface, you do the sale and
the customer walks away.

(56:06):
And they said we don't wantthat.
We really want more of anAfrican, middle Eastern style
where there is a deepercommitment to the relationship
than just making the sale.
So it was just funbrainstorming that with her and
baking that into the way shedesigned the marketing strategy,

(56:26):
but then also the way shepresented it to the owners.
Yeah, so it was a verypractical way to use the tools.

Yes, I love that example and that also
relates to how do we analyzepolicies, procedures and
processes in our businesses andschools.
How do we analyze them?
How would the 12 dimensionssort of help us flesh that out?

Yeah, there are so many examples.
Yeah, there are so manyexamples.
You know the beauty with thisframework, we can actually read
a policy document or a procedureand we can pretty much predict

(57:19):
the baseline assumptions thatwere behind that policy.
And then we can say well is thispolicy going to work for the
target audience that needs toimplement this?
So if I give you an examplethat example I earlier mentioned
about individual versuscommunity accountability so the
headquarters dictated thisorganization Salespeople are

(57:45):
individually held accountablefor their performance and if
they meet performance they stay.
If they overachieve, they get abonus.
If they are under performancethey get a warning and they're
out.
And we realized very quicklywith the head of sales that that
procedure was wrong for thecultural context they were in
and we were able to point it out.

(58:06):
And he realized what have Idone to my people?
You know, their culture getssacrificed on the basis of the
procedures the company dictates.
And it was very quick.
But then others are much morecomplex.
So, for instance, we workedwith an NGO in Africa.

(58:26):
They had designed a methodologyto assess if a small NGO that
they wanted to partner with, ifthey were a safe partner, and
sometimes that meant makingmoney and resources available to
them, but they wanted to assesscarefully if it was safe to do
so.
So there was all kinds of stuffrelated to how healthy is your

(58:51):
board, how healthy is yourleadership team, how healthy is
your financial accountability,how healthy is the way you
engage with the community andthe way you talk about that in
your communication.
How do you treat your staff?
All these things very good,well thought through assessment.

(59:12):
But there were many places inthat health assessment where
they had not taken culturallyinto account.
For instance, they usedachieved status directive
destiny assumptions to assessthe board.
So how do you become part of aboard?

(59:34):
Well, you have an incredibletrack record.
You know the industry, you canprove that, you've worked on
this project and this projectand you've had this impact in
the world and all these thingsand you've probably have some
degrees behind you.
And they said well, if youdon't have all of that, you
shouldn't be on a board.
But then they realized veryquickly in ascribed status,

(59:57):
community accountability,cultures.
How do you become part of aboard?
It's because you are a personof standing in the community,
and does that mean you have atrack record?
Does that mean that you canpoint to 25 big projects that
you've done in the community?
Probably not.
It could be there, but itdoesn't have to be.

(01:00:19):
Why are you on the board?
Because it gives theorganization standing in the
community.
It gives them high-levelconnections that they will need
to get permissions and to gettheir job done.
So there were many things likethat in the assessment.
There were the assessment ofleadership, for instance.
The assumption was that aleader creates an egalitarian

(01:00:46):
environment around him or her,where everybody has the same
voice, where everybody can givewhatever feedback they feel they
want to give, and we said, well, is that how leadership is done
across the African continent?
And in many places it's notlike that.
So they were assessing leadersbased on more of an individual

(01:01:07):
accountability, directcommunication like.
Especially, their feedbackmechanisms were very direct
communication structured and webrought them back this
intercultural analysis andinitially they were shocked but
they were wise enough toactually make the changes needed
to make their health assessmentfor NGOs interculturally agile.

(01:01:32):
So it was not easy for them toswallow, but they were wise
enough and brave enough to makethe changes needed and it was
just beautiful to watch.

Shelley Reinhart (01:01:44):
Oh, I love that.
So that had a major impact onthe way they interacted with
important people.
Yeah, oh, I love that.
That's a great example.
This has been so helpful.
We've really kind of tackledvery specific, practical ways
that the 12 dimensionsdimensions can influence the way

(01:02:06):
you do business, the way youlead.
This is so helpful.
Thank you, marco.

Marco Blankenburgh (01:02:12):
I'm sure we'll do more of this yeah, and
if, if people want to know more,there's already many articles
on our website.
We actually have a landing pagejust dedicated on
knowledgeworkscom, a landingpage just dedicated to the 12
dimensions, and, of course, wehave many facilitators around
the world who can take you oryour team through a discovery of

(01:02:34):
this nature.
Or if you say my organizationneeds this, I'm a coach, I'm in
learning and development, I'm inorganizational development.
We have many people like youwho join us for our
certifications.
So, yeah, I'm 25 years in nowin doing this work and it is so

(01:02:58):
exciting.
It's hard work, but it'sbeautiful, it's and it really
makes a difference in the world.

It's worth it.
It is worth taking the time tounderstand these things at a
deeper level.

Yes.

So again, look us, look us up,
knowledgeworkscom, alsointerculturalagilitycom.
We'd love to talk with youfurther and for you to explore
our certifications.
If this really interests youtoday, take it further, you know
, see what we offer and what itcan do for you.

Thank you so much for joining us for this
episode of the Cultural AgilityPodcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,share it with someone.
The best way to help us out isby leaving a review on your
favorite podcast app or channel,or forward and recommend this
podcast to people around you.

(01:03:52):
If any of the topics wediscussed today intrigue you,
you'll find links to articlesdiscussing them in greater depth
in the podcast notes.
If you'd like to learn moreabout getting certified in
intercultural intelligence andhow you can become more
interculturally agile, you canfind more information and

(01:04:12):
hundreds of articles atknowledgeworkscom.
A special thanks to JasonCarter for composing the music
on this podcast and to the wholeKnowledgeWorks team for making
this podcast a success.
Thank you, shelley Reinhardt,rajita Raj, nita Rodriguez,
karen Condon and special thanksto Matthew Blankenberg for audio

(01:04:35):
production, rosalind Raj forscheduling and Caleb Strauss for
helping produce this podcast.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Applying the 12 Dimensions of Culture | Part 2