Bringing Intercultural Agility into the Classroom

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How can teachers create a cultural space in their classrooms where students of all backgrounds can thrive?

Listen as Shelley Reinhart, KnowledgeWorkx Director of Education, unpacks this question with educators and Ph.D. students Yasemin Altas and Victoria Hopkin.

Yasemin has been teaching at universities for nearly three decades. She is a faculty member teaching intercultural studies at the  Higher Colleges of Technology, in the UAE. She has a Master's in Management in Education, is a trained Celta Teacher Trainer, and has been involved in projects with the Ministry of Education. She is currently working on a Ph.D. in Education with a focus on intercultural studies. 

Victoria is a teacher, school leader, coach, and educational researcher with a passion for cultural agility. As a trained and experienced intercultural coach, Victoria's Ph.D. research focuses on cultivating environments that are inclusive and culturally adaptive.

If you want to learn how you can bring these skills into your classroom, sign up for the next Culture in the Classroom Course at: https://www.knowledgeworkx.education/teachers 

In this episode, you will learn

• How to create a culturally agile classroom charter with your students.
• How to bring out the unique gifts that Third Culture Kids add to your classroom.
• How to understand and teach your students about their own unique cultural wiring.

 | Articles
 -- What Does It Mean to Be a Third Culture Kid? (http://kwx.fyi/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-tck)
--  Wandering the World - a Hopeful Tale (knowledgeworkx.com)
--  KnowledgeWorkx Education Training (www.knowledgeworkx.education)

-- Looking for a book to take your cultural agility to the next step, check out the Ultimate Intercultural Question Book brought to you by KnowledgeWorkx.com

Episode Transcript

Victoria Hopkin (00:00):
And it's it's so important to empower them to

(00:03):
say, not only do we want you toidentify your cultural, you
don't even need to say thecultural part. But you know, how
do you want me to praise you?
How does this work for you? Youenable them to be metacognitive
about all of those things thatthey themselves are
internalizing, oh, I've neverreally thought about, I take it
for granted that you would dothis and I respond, but actually

(00:24):
empowering them to think abouttheir own makeup as we were
saying at the very beginning,we're all uniquely wired and
actually enabling them to thinkthrough that with someone of
trust to create this environmentis electrifying, isn't it?

Marco Blankenburgh (00:56):
Welcome to the cultural agility podcast,
where we explore the stories ofsome of the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world, to help you
become culturally agile, andsucceed in today's culturally
complex world. I'm your host,Marco Blankenburg, international
director of knowledge works,where every day we help

(01:17):
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world.

Shelley Reinhart (01:25):
Welcome, everyone, to the cultural
agility podcast. We are thrilledto be here today we're going to
talk about intercultural agilityand education. And we have with
us today, Victoria, and Yasmine,who both have such experience in
this realm that we're going topick their brains and learn from

(01:46):
them today. So I'm so gladyou're here and you can join us.
So, Victoria, can you just sayhello.

Victoria Hopkin (01:53):
Hi, everyone.
Thank you for having me here onthis podcast.

Shelley Reinhart (01:57):
It is our joy we are I'm gonna read your
little bio. Victoria is ateacher, a school leader, a
coach and an educationalresearcher with a passion for
intercultural agility as anexpert in intercultural coaching
Victoria its Victoria's gives mePhD research focuses on
cultivating environments whichare inclusive, and culturally

(02:20):
adaptive. Renowned for herempowering coaching approach,
Victoria unlocks the potentialwithin individuals fostering a
safe and inclusive space thatcelebrates and embraces cultural
diversity. Her mission is toempower clients to thrive in our
intercultural world. We are soglad to have you, Victoria.

(02:41):
Thanks for being here. Thankyou, and Oh, you're welcome.
Great. And then next, we haveYasmine, Yasmine, can you say a
quick hello.

Yasemin Altas (02:50):
Hello. Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for
having me. Absolutely. Superexcited about this.

Shelley Reinhart (02:57):
Me too. I can't wait to get started.
Yasmine has been teaching atuniversities for nearly three
decades, half of them in theUnited Arab Emirates, and she's
a faculty member teachingIntercultural Studies, along
with other general study coursesat the higher colleges of
technology, which is a federalinstitution with branches across
the UAE. She has an MA inmanagement and education. She's

(03:21):
a trained CELTA teacher trainerhas been involved with projects
with the UAE Ministry ofEducation. And she is also
currently doing a PhD ineducation with a specific focus
on Intercultural Studies. Andshe's taught intercultural
studies to many undergraduateEmirati students and has lots of
stories to share with us lateron, which we're really looking

(03:45):
forward to. So thank you bothfor being here. And I'd like to
start off, could you please giveme a little bit of your
backstory, where you grew up?
What sparked your interest inintercultural things and your
curiosity regarding culture? Sobecause we're teachers, we'll
start alphabetically. So I'llstart with Victoria. So
Victoria, can you give us alittle bit about your backstory?

Victoria Hopkin (04:08):
Yes, of course.
So I grew up on a really smallisland, called Guernsey, it's in
the Channel Islands. For thoseof you who have no idea it's in
between England and France. Sowe're kind of in no man's land.
My Island is very unique becauseit's so small, very
monocultural. So I didn't reallyexplore the mainland is what we
call it back there. We didn'texplore England until I was much

(04:30):
older. And that opened my eyesto the real world. Following my
teacher training, and myteaching experience, I moved
over to Singapore. And then Imoved over to Shanghai, China.
And I think that's really wheremy passion for culture started.
Partially because I was theminority. And I think having

(04:52):
grown up on an island where Ilook like everyone around me,
suddenly I was in a place whereeveryone said had it me. And the
language being spoken wasdifferent to my language. And my
empathy for that really startedat that point and has grown from
that point on.

Shelley Reinhart (05:11):
Wow, yes, I love that it's such a unique
experience to be the minority. Ithink I wish everyone in the
world had the chance to feelthat, you know, it's

Victoria Hopkin (05:19):
very humbling.
Because, again, being whiteBritish woman, I'm very aware of
that space that I hold in the inthe world. And actually stepping
out of that into a differentworld was liberating and quite
scary. And I think it just gaveyou that insight into things
that we maybe take for granted.
Other people face on quite adaily basis.

Shelley Reinhart (05:43):
Yes, I agree.
I love that you share thatthat's an important point in our
cultural agility and studies. Sowhat about you, Yasmine give us
your backstory?

Yasemin Altas (05:57):
Well, going back to what Victoria said about, you
know, being a minority, I thinkI felt that throughout my life
in different contexts, so I wasborn and brought up in Germany,
my parents are Turkish. So formost of my life, you know, at

(06:19):
home, you are basically in aTurkish environment. And then
schooling was in a Germanenvironment, so that you still
are a little bit like the, youknow, the different one in the
classroom, back then, looking alittle bit darker than the
others. And then, when I wasabout 13, my parents decided to

(06:44):
move back to Turkey. And thatstarted my second stage of
feeling a little bit like aminority. It was different
because now I was the now I,again, I was the, you know, the
stranger, the, the one that isdifferent, basically, because
suddenly, I was the one who camefrom Germany and didn't speak

(07:06):
any Turkish, like, I was reallybad back then. I didn't know the
education system, I had majorissues, at the beginning, trying
to get used to the education andthe expectations from the
teachers. So I've always felt alittle bit like the outsider and

(07:28):
trying to understand where Ibelong to. And that question was
always one of the issues I had,you know, like identity, a lot
of people would ask still today,so, you know, are you Turkish?
Or are you German? is home? Andthat question for very long
time, I was not able to answerit, but it was bothering me. But

(07:53):
through Intercultural Studiesand learning more about the
concepts, and the more I gotinto Intercultural Studies, the
more I was able to feel where Ibelong. And that's why I'm so
interested in interculturalstudies as well.

Shelley Reinhart (08:11):
Yes, I can see that. Oh, thank you for sharing
that story. And I wonder howmany people listening today have
felt that struggle withidentity? It's, yeah, it's
profound changes, it changesyou.

Yasemin Altas (08:26):
I think a lot of people, for a lot of people, the
answer is so obvious. You know,it's your nationality, your
identity, where you live whereyou bought up. There's so
obvious answers to these but forme, all my lifelong that obvious
answer was just not there. yet.
I don't feel German. I don'tfeel really particularly

(08:47):
Turkish. My home could beanywhere. I'm not quite
affiliated. Would I go and livein Germany right now? No, not
really. And Turkey. Yeah,because my parents are there.
But where is home that questthat you know, who am I? Is, is
is a question that can be quiteeye opening. And especially I

(09:13):
think that's why InterculturalStudies, and ICI has helped me a
lot personally as well, to growand be at more ease with myself.
That's why it's my passion isYeah, and I feel as a teacher
here in the UAE, I see a lot ofmy students are also going

(09:33):
through the same struggles wherethey have especially now with
the UAE students, I think it'svery hard for them, because
Dubai and the UAE is goingthrough this transition of more
conservative to more liberal,but my students are sort of the

(09:54):
first generation that is havinga university degree and their
parents are still moreconservative. They're not as
exposed to social media. So mystudents quest off identity and
what they want in the future,and where do they belong to?
Where do they see themselves inthe future of their own country?

(10:17):
These are all very importantquestions that they have. And
ici actually helps them just toreflect and understand
themselves better,

Shelley Reinhart (10:28):
how wonderful that you are in their lives. And
you you really do relate to thatidentity crisis you you are,
you're there, and you're able towalk them through that. And that
brings me to the idea of, ofeducation. So, Victoria, what
sparked your interest ineducation? Why education? And
then why? Why Singapore? And whyinternational education?

Victoria Hopkin (10:50):
The answer to the first question is simple. I
was scared to do anything else.
I enjoyed being with people. Ienjoyed talking, I think most,
most of my friends would agree Iwas just one of those. And I
didn't really find my passion inteaching until I became a
teacher trainer. And I didn'treally consider that as a
teaching profession, until Iaccidentally slipped into it as

(11:11):
part of the leadershipstructure. Honestly, the reason
I moved to Singapore is becauseI lived in London, and I
realized I couldn't live inLondon, and live a great life on
a teacher's salary. So I stillYeah. And it's interesting, I'd
love to pick up on Yasmin'spoint, just for a moment of that
idea of finding home. So fromSingapore, I moved to Shanghai,

(11:35):
and I'm in the UAE as well. So Ican marry Yasmin's point of
teaching in an internationalschool rather than a kind of
Emirati school that actuallyasked students of Third Culture,
kids still experience that,where is home, I think a lot of
them feel like they're snails,their home is on their back. And
wherever their parents move tonext is where they identify as

(11:56):
home. So it's interesting tocompare that, although you may
be living in the country thatyou were born, you know, or you
may not, you can find a home indifferent places, depending on
where you feel your family are,where your friendship network
is. So I find education is sucha key to establishing that

(12:17):
community for our students togive them a sense of home a
sense of belonging. Because forme, I think that defines a sense
of home for our for ourstudents, which is integral in
this global world that we livein now.

Shelley Reinhart (12:35):
Yes, I love that. And you teach in inter
international schools, so kidsare coming from all over the
world, their parents are livingand working in Dubai.

Victoria Hopkin (12:44):
Absolutely. And this transients there isn't
there, because teachers,contracts change. People are
here for a certain amount oftime while the contract lasts,
and they move. So they may beindifferent. For example, our
son who's now 15, has lived infour different countries. And
he's only 15. So for him to kindof identify, and he has mean the

(13:06):
same thing for you, you know,Oh, where are you from? How does
even answer that, like I wasborn here, but I spent most of
my childhood here and now I'mhere. So I feel as though this
generation of specially of ThirdCulture kids is going to be one
of where your roots or where,you know, where's your family's
heritage, rather than the simplequestions of where are you from?

(13:28):
I think the global network nowis opening us up. And I think
through the work Yasmine isdoing with Intercultural Studies
is allowing people to see thatpossibility.

Shelley Reinhart (13:39):
Yes, and I love you know, Alex acknowledge
works. We reframe that questionin terms of self culture, that
every person is a uniquelywired, cultural human being and
has a story and in nonmonocultural you know,
communities. That story is soimportant. And if you really

(14:01):
want to know someone, where areyou from? It's just it's just
not the right question to startwith. anymore, you know, so
completely that What about you,Yasmine? What sparked your
interest in education?
Especially movinginterculturally?

Yasemin Altas (14:20):
Um, I think interesting. I mean, I always,
you know, moving back to Turkey,for example, I had some
wonderful teachers whoapproached my situation and
myself very positively. Andbecame an inspiration for me. I

(14:44):
looked up to these teachers andsaid, this is this is the kind
of person I would like to be.
But then I also had teachers whowere just horrible. Who wouldn't
understand my situation and who,frankly, were very, very be
unprofessional, they would makefun of me, they would find out
the way I was speaking. I mean,it's now I wouldn't be able to

(15:06):
understand, like, how does theteacher even have the courage
to, to, you know, behave incertain ways towards students?
It's unbelievable. And it was itwas it Turkey's university
educated, you know, universityentrance system is based on

(15:27):
exams. And for me, basically,you know, coming from Germany
with, you know, struggling withthe Turkish language. For me,
the best opportunity waslanguage. Teaching. So I went
into foreign languages, andthat's my passion as well. And I

(15:48):
didn't even think of becoming aneducator until I was in my last
year. And then once I was in theclassroom as an intern, that's
where I really had the spike.
And I'm super glad that I chosethis profession.

Shelley Reinhart (16:07):
Me too.

Yasemin Altas (16:10):
I, I've met so many students from you know,
different lives, but it's just,it's a fascinating job, because
it's never ever the same. It'salways changing. And it's, it's,
it pushes you as well. You haveto change along with the

(16:34):
students along with the newgeneration along with the
technologies. So it keeps youvery much on your toes. Why am I
interested in interculturalstudies and teaching into
culturally, I came here to theUAE. Possibly like a lot of
teachers, life in Turkey on ateacher's salary was really was

(16:57):
really hard. And I came here,and I didn't think to be honest,
I didn't think I would stay herefor very long. But then once
being in the teacher, I couldconnect with my students on a
different level. For them, I wassuddenly the Turkish teacher who

(17:18):
is also a Muslim, but who has avery different approach to them.
So for me to be with students,Emirati is Muslim Emirati
students, and for them to lookat me and see a potential in
themselves as they, they canmake changes in their lives.

(17:39):
That was a huge inspiration bothways. Because when I came back
from Germany to Turkey, some ofmy family members had a very
similar approach to Emiraticulture here, where it's like,
you know, you don't have to pusheducation so hard, it's back

(18:02):
then it was my family, extendedfamily members would say, okay,
you know, you can learn how to,you can learn a few skills, you
don't need to go to university.
And then, you know, when you're2223, you get married and have a
family. And for me, that waslike, a no, no, I had

(18:22):
aspirations in my life. And itwas, it was the start of a
journey, not just for my owneducation and personal
development, but also somehowtraining and educating my own
family and changing theirperspectives about things. And
sharing these with the studentshere. And the students, every

(18:45):
now and then coming back to mesaying this, this is great. You
know, I want to be like you. AndI want you know, that is, that
is a great feeling in theclassroom. You see, yes, even
though we are culturally verydifferent. At the end of the
day, these are teenagers, theseare female, these are students

(19:09):
and aspirations don't changeeven though your culture might
be completely different.

Shelley Reinhart (19:18):
Yes. I love hearing that. And I love that.
That you're tangibly making adifference. And isn't that what
we love about teaching is justthat opportunity to just freely
invest in these students andalso the teachers and how did

(19:38):
you get introduced tointercultural agility through
knowledge works? How did each ofyou kind of find knowledge works
Victoria about you?

Victoria Hopkin (19:49):
I just picking up on Yasmin's point kind of
really introduces how I got intoactually that idea of looking at
the responsibility that teachershave to negotiate different
cultural nuances in theclassroom, I think, often,
especially in internationalscenarios, they teach a British

(20:10):
curriculum or an Americancurriculum. And that somehow
assumes the position of theschool. But actually, within
that little dynamic within thatmicrocosm of your classroom, you
have so many different cultures.
And so teachers have thatresponsibility, that obligation
to understand the cultures thatare occurring in them and to
promote a respect and a culturalagility so that everyone can be

(20:34):
harmonious together. So I thinkthat that was the first thing
that brought my level ofawareness to culture in the
classroom, and wanting toresearch how can we, you know,
what's a real way of developingthis? I think it's probably a
challenge, we all experience oflooking at this soft skills and

(20:56):
looking at these emotional sidesof behavior and culture, which
are hard, as we've just said,hard to pinpoint. What do we
mean by this? And how do Ireally develop that in a
classroom environment in aneducational setting? So I wanted
to reach out to experts in thefield. And thank goodness, I
found knowledge works, thankgoodness, I found Marco and

(21:18):
Shelly and the team to enlightenme into this paradigm where
actually culture was seen assomething that we can study, we
can embrace, we can promote andunderstand at a level that was
much more tangible and much moremeaningful than I had enabled
myself to envisage in the past.

Shelley Reinhart (21:43):
That's a wonderful, yes. And just tell us
about your journey withknowledge works. What did you do
after you were introduced toKnowledgeWorks? At

Victoria Hopkin (21:52):
first I, I did the intercultural coaching
course, because part of my PhDthesis was working with Arab
teachers through a coachcoaching methodology. And I knew
that the coaching that I hadexperienced the coaching I've
been trained in, wasn't adaptingenough to intercultural

(22:13):
considerations, I knew thatthere were elements that they
would give a nod to, but it wasnowhere near in depth enough, it
was nowhere near challengingenough, it wasn't really
understanding myself as acultural persona, and then
understanding someone else'sculture and understanding how I
bridged that gap. So from thatincredible coaching course, I

(22:40):
just fell in love with it somuch more. And I just been such
a passionate follower ofknowledge works, and the work
and the podcasts and the blogsever since. And just trying to
constantly emulate in both myresearch, and also my personal
and professional life, toemulate all of those spirits and
methodologies that knowledgework provided for me. Wow,

Shelley Reinhart (23:04):
thank you for saying that. It's wonderful.
What about you, Yasmine? How didyou first get introduced to
knowledge works, it's verydifferent, different.

Yasemin Altas (23:13):
It's very different. It's very different.
To be honest, I can't take anycredit. It was really the
college I worked for. Sothankfully, we had really
visionary leaders. So back then,it was the Ministry of Education

(23:36):
was shaking her hand. And he wasworking closely with my
director, who had been here inthis country for 25 years. So he
was the one who was the founderof this college with like 14
students in one classroom, youknow, down in the creek area.

(23:56):
And they've always strived forimproving the students and
ensuring that the nextgeneration in the UAE is really
up to, you know, world classlevel with their skills and
their vision as well. And theywill, they are the ones who

(24:19):
really wanted to make sure thatthe students also are able to
keep up with the mission of thecountry, which is to become more
global and to function in thisincreasingly global UAE. Right,

(24:44):
so they need the skills to beworking with others in case just
for people who are not veryfamiliar with the UAE. The UAE
is population right now is rightnow is about 10 million only 1
million of that is Emirati. So 9million expats from all kinds of

(25:07):
countries are here from allkinds of cultures that are here.
So there's a huge emphasis onthe ability to work together and
have this interculturalawareness and sensitivity. And
it was the college who found,knowledge works. And they

(25:30):
developed together a programthat would cater for the
students needs. I was selectedby my director as one of the
first batches of teachers andeducators to be trained as an
ici practitioner. And that wasthe beginning of a whole
journey, not only for me, butfor a lot of other Mike of my

(25:52):
colleagues. That's how I startedteaching ici. And that went on
for nearly a decade. Wow. And Ihave to say it was it was one of
the most memorable, memorableand fascinating and inspiring
times as a teacher for me in myprofessional career.

Shelley Reinhart (26:13):
And while you were teaching, so you were
teaching Emirati students, youwere teaching them the basics of
knowledge, workss methodology,which is the three colors of
worldview and 12 dimensions ofculture. So you were teaching
those things? Exactly. And youreally enjoyed it. And you saw
the impact on the students?

Yasemin Altas (26:34):
I did, because I think, you know, when I was
getting trained, I had a realaha moment for myself. As I
said, before, you know, all mylifelong I spent, like three
decades in my life trying tofind the answers to you know,
who am I? Where do I belong to,where's home, all this identity

(26:56):
and trying to understand whythings are different for me, and
how I could maybe adapt more tothe situations I'm in. It was
only within the cultural, theICI course, that I finally had
an answer that, wow, I had noidea. I'm a third culture kid. I

(27:18):
was born, you know, in Germany,to Turkish parents, and all the
feelings I was going through,has a name, I finally had a
headache, had a had a category,I belonged to a category, which
is like the Third Culture kid,yes. And then all the other
concepts through the court thatwe learned throughout the

(27:40):
course, you know, the ladder ofinference, or the dimensions,
etc. That was an eye opener forme. And being able to transfer
this information, thisexperience and this passion that
I finally, you know, this, thislifesaver for me, I just wanted

(28:01):
to give that to the students.
And it's been amazing, because Isaw, literally, I saw those aha
moments and that spike in thestudents so many times over and
over again. And once you havethat, you just want to have
more, you just have to be ableto create that aha moment.
Because I think for me, sincethat time, even though I'm not

(28:27):
teaching right now,intercultural studies to my
students, it is still in myclasses on a daily basis.
Somehow it is integrated. Liketoday, I right now, I'm teaching
a course called Futureforesight. And only today in my
class, again, I was referringback to the iceberg. And, you

(28:50):
know, the first impressions andhow we might be wrong with
assumptions. And you can seethis dead silence in the
classroom of 24 students. Andthey all look at this iceberg in
front of them. And you can see,it's slowly you know, they have
some reflections and thinkingabout things. And I think, I

(29:15):
think this course has alsochanged a lot for me
professionally and personally.
And that's why I believe it's sovaluable, not just as a teacher,
but I think it's a very valuablecourse that is necessary in a

(29:35):
global world right now for anyany profession, or even as a
parent, I think to have betterconnections with with the people
around you and your children.

Shelley Reinhart (29:47):
Yes. Yes, Victoria. You work with
teachers. Right. Can you talkabout how it's impacted that?

Victoria Hopkin (29:56):
Yeah, I mean, I resonate so much with what you
asked me in saying so just thatidea of, you know, always been
so changed that actually, afteryou've done the knowledge works
course, you can only see thingsthrough the cultural lens all of
a sudden that you can't comeback again. So it penetrates
everything that you see think dothe way you perceive other

(30:18):
people. So just to give you anexample of that, when I was with
in China, I had a few colleagueswho struggled with the culture
struggled with what theyperceived to be, you know, a
difference in protocols, let'ssay. Whereas, the more I studied

(30:39):
the language, and I think you'reright, as me language and
culture, bring you so many moreinsights as to why the why
traditionally, some people do itthis way, what it means to them
to behave in this way to eat inthis way to talk in this way.
That actually is exactly thaticeberg. Suddenly, you stop
seeing what you see with youreyes, and you start to see

(31:01):
what's much deeper, that bringssuch beautiful meaning. And such
a beautiful appreciation ofanother culture that actually
changes you as a person. Becauseyou have this eye opening moment
of, gosh, I'm learning so muchmore about you. I'm so grateful
that I can see this other sidebecause I want to. And I think

(31:25):
it's that desire to see thingsdifferently. That is so
integral. And I think, just toanswer your question, Shelly,
Yasmine, obviously is talkingabout the students. I wonder
whether it's almost harderdealing with the teachers,
because they're almost morestuck in their ways they've had,
unfortunately, they haven't hadYes, building blocks. So they've

(31:45):
had longer and longer settingtheir own mindsets,
dispositions, expectations,assumptions. And coming in to
get what Yasmin calls those ahamoments, it can sometimes feel
more of a challenge, becauseyou're having to dig past a lot
of year, year on year builtassumptions and behaviors that

(32:08):
people feel very comfortablewith, especially where they're
in the majority community of,well, we will behave this way.
So this is the way we expecteveryone to behave, and pushing
them into that sense of well,let's understand. And one thing
that I love, if I may, surely,that idea of yes, 12 dimensions

(32:28):
that we all exist on here. Someof us are in this polarity. And
some of us are over here, butwe're all in the same dimension.
And I think that that brings alovely cohesion to everyone to
understand that difference.
Isn't you live on Mars and Ilive in, you know, Jupiter?
Actually, we're all in the sameplace. We're just existing give

Shelley Reinhart (32:52):
an example?
Like, can you give an example ofa time or some of the
polarities, our status and and,you know, planning and doing
this any come to mind? Well,definitely,

Victoria Hopkin (33:03):
again, just to reference China, because I know
you asked me and we can talkabout the Arab culture in the
UAE. So just to bring adifferent one. The one I found
most interesting was that ideaof what I'm looking at three
colors. Now that idea of power,and how power in the Chinese
culture was interesting, becauseagain, I saw it so differently.
The Chinese culture, generallyspeaking, students expect the

(33:28):
authority figure as the teacher,and coming from a Western
pedagogy. That's not how we are,we try and kind of create this
community where everyone's equaland we can create this safe
space, the teacher is afacilitator. And actually coming
into that dynamic where Iunnerved a lot of our Chinese
students because I wasn't beingthe authority, standing at the

(33:51):
front and giving them what theyexpected. So although I was
coming in with my preferred, andmy belief around preferred
pedagogy, actually, I was doinga disservice to those students
who didn't respond to that. Soit was interesting to look at,
you know, my understanding ofpower and response to that. And

(34:11):
authority actually was differentalong that sliding scale.

Shelley Reinhart (34:17):
So important to understand how the students
see the role of a teacher. Howmuch authority does that role
have? And in the West, right,it's much more distributed power
and we listen to each other, welearn from each other, we share
ideas in much of the world, it'snot that way right?

Yasemin Altas (34:38):
Now, I'll add to that example, Victoria, you
know, where, as a teachertrainer, you're always taught
like when you're givingfeedback, go to the level of the
student be next to the students,you know, show that you are at
the same level to create thatbond. Whereas in, you know, in a

(34:59):
power driven society thatdoesn't work. It's, it's almost
like what are you doing heresitting with me. And it
diminishes the respect thestudent then has towards the
teacher, which is completelydifferent and throws you off

(35:21):
your balance, because you do asa teacher want to have the
connection. So everything youdo, and whatever you've been
taught from the western point ofview, is now wrong or not
suitable, and you have to dealerlearn, and then relearn. You
know, one of the most importantconcepts in intercultural

(35:43):
studies, like you have to forgetwhat you've learned sometimes,
you know, so far, and you needto be open, and re learn other
concepts that are different. Andthat's you might not agree with
that. But that's okay. It'sdifferent.

Victoria Hopkin (36:01):
It's that cultural agility to recognize in
which context, do I need tobehave in which way and in which
connection with the wholecommunity of the classroom? Can
we create this third space,where actually we all understand
each other, but we're going tocollectively enter into this
other zone where everyone findswhat works for them, and the

(36:21):
teacher has to show such agilityto find that right balance
within that community.

Shelley Reinhart (36:27):
That third cultural space, don't teachers
have this unique? Responsibilityand beautiful, I would say power
to create their own culture. Inthose four walls. It's because
you are the authority and youcan shape the rules, you can
shape how participation isviewed, you have so much power

(36:50):
to shape the culture and in thatclassroom, and if you use the
lit, the litmus test that wepromote, you know, am is as what
I'm doing in this classroom, isit honoring to all the students?
Am I empowering the students?
And am I doing right by them?
Like, is there justice beingdone? And those three questions,

(37:13):
you know, some, some teachersonly focus on the justice piece
or the equality piece, butthere's the honoring and the
empowering that also needs to?
To Have you seen that? Have youseen teachers be able to create
that space and be culturallyagile and recognize their other
worldviews in the room that theyneed to adapt to?

Victoria Hopkin (37:34):
I think that's a really big journey. And I echo
what you say, Shelley, I thinkyou use the word power. And I
would say, Absolutely, and withevery great power comes great
responsibility. And I feel asthough every teacher has a huge
responsibility to create that,to be aware of that, and to
never take their eye off theball of the litmus test of where

(37:56):
are we today? Because one newbehavior, one new addition, you
know, we're talking about thetransience of some educational
settings, one new addition cancompletely throw that into a
different domain. So it'sconstantly evaluating where you
are. I have seen teachersdelving into that space.

(38:17):
Unfortunately, from myexperience, teachers are busy,
teachers are overwhelmed.
Teachers feel like, I understandthat this is important, but I
don't have time to alwaysprioritize it. And my argument
is always you don't have timenot to, if you don't create
this, from what you were saying,Surely that litmus test of those

(38:38):
three elements, creates apsychological safety. And until
you have that, what learning canoccur that's going to be as
meaningful or as productive ifthe students don't feel that
that has been created for them?

Shelley Reinhart (38:55):
Yes, I think that is the teacher's
responsibility to create that.
Yeah, Yasmine, what about you? Imean, have you seen that and it
sounds like you create that inyour classroom?

Yasemin Altas (39:12):
I think I mean, I do feel that the students walk
in the class with quite acomfort that they can't find
always in the other classes andthey say that as well. And that
is purely because I'm trying torespect that you know, mutual

(39:34):
respect and hearing them andhonoring what they actually
want, and how they would like toI would like this the classroom,
atmosphere to be so by honoringtheir feelings and their, their

(39:54):
perspectives, I'm able to createthis classroom where you know
this It's an open learningenvironment, and the students
are really comfortable talkingabout very personal things
sometimes. You know,disturbingly personal, I would
say disturbing, because thereare a lot of stories that are

(40:17):
happening within, you know,their lives and their, their
families that they don'tnecessarily have an outlet to
talk about these things, andthen they, they will be able to
talk about this in theclassrooms. Going back to the 12
dimensions that Victoria hasset, you know, you give the

(40:39):
example of power, I'm gonna givejust a very small example of
like, time, right? Where if youhave the policies of, you have
to be on time, if you're 10minutes late, you're being
marked absent, you know, we'retalking about school and college
rules and regulations. Soapplying these as a teacher, you

(41:03):
have to be really careful,because, yes, I need to apply
the college policies. But in aculture, where time, and the
understanding of the, you know,the dimension of time is not at
the same dimension that youhave. So my students, you know,

(41:23):
they tend to be late, quite alot. And at the beginning, you
know, they would come in late,and if you as a teacher, you
know, have this threateningattitude of like, okay, you're
late, I'm gonna make you absent.
I said, Why are you making meabsent while you're late? That's
the rule. I'm going by the book,you know, and guilt and
innocence. Yeah, so the worldview is going with that. So if

(41:47):
you are insisting, and withoutexplaining the student, what's
going on, there's going to be aclash. And that is going to
affect the whole, you know,learning environment with your
students. So at the beginning, Iwas trying to do that, and then
I realized, they hate me, andit's not going anywhere, and I

(42:10):
don't like this electricity inthe air with the students,
right? huffing and puffing. So Ithought, okay, you know, what do
I need to do and try tounderstand the culture and their
dimension and their approach,which is more people oriented.
So trying to understand wherethey come from, helped me to

(42:32):
really change my approach. Sothis time, I would say, look,
you're coming late. And bytalking about honor, which is so
important in culture, by goingback to their worldview, and
say, Look, if I you, for thoselisteners who don't know what it

(42:52):
means, it's basically it's ashame, it's a shame we have
started the class, it's a shamethat you're late. It's a shame
that you have your teacher waitfor you come in, it's
disrespectful, it's a shame,etc, you're taking away the
right of the other students inthe classroom. This is, it's a
shame. That's what theyunderstand. And their face has

(43:16):
changed. And tilaka this, I'm sosorry. I'm so sorry, Paula, I
will not be late. And then youlaugh about it, it's okay. Don't
be like next time. And then youlaugh. And then suddenly
beautiful, that little rule thatcould create so much headache
for you. Because becomes anagreed rule in the classroom

(43:39):
than based on you know, anotherdimension, not necessarily, you
know, punishment, and I'm gonnamark your absence. So it's very
important. I mean, we're talkingabout education. But I think, as
I said, these dimensions andunderstanding these dimensions

(44:00):
and the worldviews and trying tothen readapt your reaction based
on the culture you're dealingwith, is going to help you build
much more better relationshipsand you know, much more fruitful
relationships as well. And thatwill open up so many doors have

(44:21):
amazing stories that you cancertainly share with the people
around

Shelley Reinhart (44:28):
you. And that is the essence of intercultural
agility. Like what you justshared. I mean, that's, that's
us. That's an example of, of ateacher adapting paying
attention. How do they viewtardiness? How is it different
than my own? How can I adjustand adapt to speak their

(44:51):
language, so to speak? Yeah.
And, oh, that's just yeah, thankyou for sharing that example.
That's a great example. Thankyou. And each each of those
little things every time we dothat, it's creating that third
cultural space. And one thing Italk about in culture in the
classroom, the course that I've,that I've taught is that I try

(45:12):
to encourage teachers to createa classroom charter. Were at the
beginning of the of the year,you discuss these things with
your students with withunderstanding that you're the
you're the authority, but youtalk about how do we create
trust? How can we create trustthat when you walk in these four

(45:35):
walls, we trust each other? Youtrust me, I trust you? What does
that look like? How do wecelebrate your accomplishments?
And then how do I hold youaccountable? When you don't
follow through? What does thatlook like? And that's going to
look different in honor, shame,it's gonna look different for
someone in this skill, and it'sgonna look different for someone

(45:56):
who's used to a power for yourclassroom. It's, it's, like,
very tricky to navigate. Forwhen you talk about it, and you
get them thinking about it. It'sjust, it's, it works. You know,
it's, it's really

Victoria Hopkin (46:13):
nice. It's so important to empower them to
say, not only do we want you toidentify your cultural, you
don't even need to say thecultural part. But you know, how
would you want me to praise you?
How does this work for you, youenable them to be metacognitive,
about all of those things thatthey themselves are
internalizing? Oh, I've neverreally thought about, I take it

(46:33):
for granted that you would dothis and I respond, but actually
empowering them to think abouttheir own makeup, as we were
saying at the very beginning,we're all uniquely wired and
actually enabling them to thinkthrough that with someone of
trust to create this environmentis, you know, electrifying,

(46:54):
isn't it?

Shelley Reinhart (46:58):
I love that.
Yes. Yes. Yes. One thing I wanteach I'd love you to to share,
is, what are you? What work areyou doing for your PhDs? And
what are your goals for yourfuture in education? If you were
to just dream? What would thatlook like? And how does

(47:18):
intercultural agility kind ofplay a role in that? So
Victoria, can you can you gofirst,

Victoria Hopkin (47:25):
of course, so mine. So my PhD is looking at
KOAT, intercultural coaching,specifically with Arab teachers
working with an internationalschool setting, because this is
the UAE, we are in thisbeautiful host country. And yet,
we typically, in a lot of theschools that I've worked in

(47:47):
impose a Western centricapproach mindset pedagogy. And
what I'm wanting to do is workwith, you know, Western is such
a broad term, but for ease, weuse that word Western Western
leaders to understand their Arabcolleagues, to understand the

(48:07):
Arab approach to teaching andlearning, and to build, you
know, third cultural space forthese teachers and leaders to
exist and to communicate,because, as he asked me, and so
beautifully put it, you know,there's a way of working with
the students to create thatmagic. But actually, these are
two colleagues who are at seniorlevels, but who don't always see

(48:32):
assessment or, you know, timingsof getting these next things
done, or the way that you'reevaluating a lesson. There's no
shared understanding from myexperience that is adequate to
make that relationship fruitful.
So my work through my PhD studyis to look at how can we build a

(48:52):
culture of coaching with Arabstaff and Western leaders to
bridge that gap and create amutual space of understanding
and trust in which thatdevelopment of learning can
occur?

Shelley Reinhart (49:13):
Oh, wow, that's profound work. Oh, I hope
that that just makes such animpact. So

Victoria Hopkin (49:19):
do I Shelly, I can't begin to tell you how.

Shelley Reinhart (49:25):
We are cheerleaders that that is such a
good work. Wow. What about you,

Yasemin Altas (49:31):
they're even very important as well. I feel quite
inspired. Maybe I should changemy topic.
I'm actually quite at thebeginning of my studies. I'm
still at the Explore explorationstage, let's say, but my focus

(49:51):
is to culture. Adults. Havingcome from this background and in
a personal interest andEspecially I want to focus on
concepts of the 12 dimensions,you know, like concepts of the
of identity. Where do I belongto? How do they make career

(50:16):
choice? So my focus is students,but specifically it's Emirati
students who have an Emiratifather and a nun Emirati mother.
And the reason I chose this wasbecause Emirati father's here,
of course, you know, being beingthe patriarch of the family, it

(50:40):
has huge effects on thechildren. And the reason why I'm
wanting to look at none, youknow, Emirati moms, is I want to
see the different perspectivesof, you know, not necessarily
Muslim, but also not Muslim, notEmirati, and how that affects

(51:01):
today's generation here in theUAE. And the aim for the aim in
doing this is basically, I wouldlike to say, what, what if what
affects the students in theircareer choices for exam. And

(51:22):
these are where the dimensionscome in terms of, you know, the
status and the power, thedestiny? Is it directed,
directed, etc, all of theseideas, in order to better
understand the makeup right nowwith the students that we have.

(51:45):
And things are changing all thetime. When I first came, about
10 years ago, when I firststarted teaching ice I used to
ask in the classroom, you know,who is the third culture kid
after a long introduction, raiseyour hand if you are a suit
culture, child. And no one wouldraise their hand, even though

(52:09):
physically from the physicalfeatures, you definitely see
genetically, there is some, youknow, other influence. And the
students would not say it, Iwould ask, Do you have a nun
Emirati person in your family,maybe somebody got married to
someone, nobody would raisetheir hand, it was such a I

(52:34):
don't want to say taboo. But itwas a topic that they were not
comfortable talking about,because they were possibly also
afraid of certain stigmas comingalong with that. But now 10
years later, I asked the samequestion in the class. And the

(52:55):
students without hesitation,raise their hand and proudly can
say yes, you know, my mom, isthis or my Dad, is this etc. So
they own their diversitybeautifully, which I think is,
is great. It's, it's empoweringfor them. And I want to see how

(53:17):
this is affecting other aspectssuch as career choice, and where
they see themselves, especiallyas a role, you know, in their
role as a female? Yeah, so I'mexploring that. But I'm,

Shelley Reinhart (53:33):
I'm still fascinating.

Yasemin Altas (53:34):
I have to say I'm still at the beginning. I'm
wiggling around with some of theideas. And Victoria, maybe you
can give me some ideas

Shelley Reinhart (53:41):
I love. So basically, you're saying that
those, there's students areraised in an intercultural home.
So they could have verydifferent cultural worldviews
just from their mother andfather, that that would be
possible. And then how do theyhow does that impact them

(54:01):
individually and future choices?
Is that right? Yeah. Well,that's basket Exactly.

Yasemin Altas (54:08):
Because the assumption is generally no, we
shouldn't assume we that's onething we learn in this Yeah.

Shelley Reinhart (54:19):
We never assume

Yasemin Altas (54:21):
assumption is that, you know, that the
students like Emirati studentsare out students, you know, they
grow up in certain ways with theinfluence of their identity and
religion, etc. But, you know,once you open that Lily door,

(54:44):
and you are having a glimpseinto family backgrounds, it's so
diverse. It's immensely diverse.
And the students there's so manystudents who are very much To be
able to balance this, you know,this these two worlds basically.
And it's also interesting to seehow in their families, they,

(55:09):
they, they see that they see thedifferences play out between mom
and dad. Yeah, I have a student,for example, you know, during
COVID, that was fascinating forme. So she's super sweet girl,
super sweet, super smart. Andher mom is Russian and her dad

(55:31):
is Emirati. And during COVID,you know, when we had to, you
know, compound, go with therules, and we had to go
vaccinations, etc. She, her momdidn't want her to get
vaccinated. But her dad wantedher to get vaccinated, and the

(55:51):
mom doesn't want to and thechild is in between and the
child has to get vaccinated.
Otherwise, you can't do youknow, go, you can't do anything.
And you're not allowed on campusif you're not vaccinated. So,
and I and I ran into them inIKEA in festival city with the

(56:13):
mom. And the mom was like,outspoken. And she talked to me
lovely woman and, and you cansee this different, you know,
this diversity how this child isbalancing, you know, the
relationship between her mum andher dad and but trying to exist

(56:34):
as an individual in betweenthose two, and trying to try to,
you know, have them, make themaware that she also has a voice
and that voice needs to beheard. It's very interesting. So
I'm interested in these areas.
Yeah, that's such

Shelley Reinhart (56:57):
such good work. My friend Chris
O'Shaughnessy, is an expert inThird Culture, kids. And he uses
the picture of a hallway hecalls them children of the
hallway. Because so if they'restanding in a hallway, one room
is say they have an honor, shameculture at home, primarily. And
then they go to school, and it'smuch more innocent skilled, that

(57:18):
Western kind of pedagogy, andthen their friends are from all
over the world. And they havetheir own mix of all three
worldviews, and they go fromroom to room. But they kind of
live in the hallway. Because

Yasemin Altas (57:32):
that's a beautiful Methodist.

Shelley Reinhart (57:33):
I love it.
Every time I share a certainculture. Yeah. And he also says
the Third Culture, kids findeach other. It's uncanny. Like,
hallway kids find other hallwaykids, because it's such a unique
experience. And it transcendsculture. So you'll find Third
Culture, kids form their ownlittle group, because they've

(57:55):
experienced that life in thehallway. And somebody who
doesn't know that. Yeah, goahead. Yeah,

Yasemin Altas (58:03):
there's, there's a lot of research, backing up
that idea that third culture,kids wherever they go, like a
magnet, they actually find eachother. Yeah, because that's
their comfort zone. That's wherethey feel comfortable. Because
as you said, All the others inthat hallway have experienced

(58:25):
the same Yes. So you, you know,you become this little clique.
And it's your comfort zone,because you know that the other
person has gone through that asa friend of mine right now her
son. They're Syrian, but he was,you know, brought up here in the
UAE for for many years. He'sgone to Germany, to study

(58:50):
electronics in Munich, lovelyguy, and were quite worried
about the environment, is hegoing to have friends, etc. And
at the beginning, he says, Yeah,I feel a bit strange. My
language is not very well. Idon't know if I liked this place
or not. Three months later,literally, he came back. Yep.

(59:12):
I'm staying here. I love it. Andwe said, like, why your friends?
And then it was, I don't know,somebody for a girl from Brazil.
Another guy, exactly. Anotherguy from this. They they
established that little groupof, you know, little United
Colors in Munich, in that inthat in that department, and

(59:39):
they all found each other andthey hang out together and they
cook together. And now they saidthat the the other members in
the classrooms you know that themono culture, like the German
students would say, Oh, this isso interesting. Can we join you?
You know, what are you eating?
What is that? So now They havebecome almost this tool or this

(01:00:00):
movement to create like rippleeffects. Now they have become
the center of change in theirown classes. And that ripple
effect is now going on and, youknow, five years with these
people together and the studentstogether is going to make a huge

(01:00:23):
effect on the others.

Shelley Reinhart (01:00:27):
And I think Third Culture, kids have the
ability and the potential toimpact the world in that way to
show us to show us interculturalagility, because they do it
every day, they live indifferent rooms, they, you know,

Victoria Hopkin (01:00:42):
and they also have that resilience, don't
they, because they've had to beresilient in that hallway living
have a little bit, you know, onefoot in here, one foot back
here, and that actually, thatthey can show that to others
that they celebrate everyone,they don't have a preference of
this, or that they just acceptand are excited by this new
food, this word, this approachthis, you know, way of living,

(01:01:06):
that actually emanates thisadventure, especially at
university life, you know, it'sfun to just get on board and
learn from others, which is sucha powerful mindset to bring to a
community. open mindedness.

Shelley Reinhart (01:01:21):
Yes, curiosity. That's not Yeah,

Yasemin Altas (01:01:24):
yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can, I have to also add,
it's not always an easy task asa third culture kid. Yeah, you
know, to have this, to have thisdownside, let's say patience, or
it goes both ways. You know, Isee that in my relationship. My

(01:01:44):
husband is, you know, British,as you saw. So, even within
relationships, you know, like,where as a third culture, you're
so used to go from one room tothe other room, when it BAM, in
out and you adapt so quickly,without knowing I adapt

(01:02:06):
accordingly. And I'm not evenaware that I'm doing that so
fast. And when you forget,sometimes that other people are
not as agile and longer, andthey need some tools, they need
a little bit more guidance.
Definitely patience, but alsoguidance. And that frustration,

(01:02:27):
I can see that sometimes, youknow, like, not being able to
keep up with that fast pace,that agility can be sometimes
frustrating on both sides, youknow, where my part my husband
would be like, I don'tunderstand, what are you saying?

(01:02:58):
Where it would be, you know,slow down, I don't get it. What
is it that you know, one thingat a time could be a man's
thing, I don't know. It's as aas a third culture, kid. You
know, you do things quickly, andyou are able to adapt quickly to

(01:03:22):
a situation. And if, let's say,as an educator, if you are
working with other people, youneed to realize that you need to
have the patience to allowothers to develop that agility.
Even if it's not at the samepace as yours right now. It's a

(01:03:42):
skill. Well, I mean, it's askill, right? It's a skill set
that really has to be taught andpracticed over and over and over
again,

Victoria Hopkin (01:03:54):
I think that's such an important point. Yes,
mean that the thing that wefocus on is the third culture
kids, but actually, it's theirnatural adaptability, their
natural agility is thensometimes confronted with people
who are fixed mindsets who aremonoculture like I was in my
growing up, that actually beenwith me. Yeah. And it can it can

(01:04:15):
be odd for the Third Culturekids to see people that are so
single minded, fixed mindset.
And actually, they have to learna new, you know, string to their
bow to be able to adapt to howdo I penetrate you? How do I get
over there with you, being veryclosed minded compared to my
exposure to a lot of differentcultures? And I think, yes, that

(01:04:37):
definitely resonates in theclassrooms that I've worked when
with with teachers, that they'vebeen so long in their mentality
in this space. As you weresaying, Surely, this is the
classroom rule. This is what wedo. I set the tone for what this
year will bring. And actuallywhen the Kids who are the Third

(01:04:59):
Culture kids come with thatheightened sense of cultural
agility. The teachers whosometimes feel perhaps surprised
or on the backfoot of, they'renot ready to enter into that. So
it can be a real kind of tug ofwar, I suppose to get that
balance. Right. Thank you forbringing it up. Yes, man. It's a

(01:05:21):
great point. I think

Shelley Reinhart (01:05:25):
that is, well, we have, we have come to the end
of our time. And it is ofcourse, I could talk to you both
for hours more. Thank you somuch for your insights and your
wisdom and the things thatyou've shared today. I just, I
hope everyone listening to thispodcast is encouraged and, and
wants to be interculturallyagile the way that you too are.

Marco Blankenburgh (01:05:49):
Thank you so much for joining us for this
episode of the cultural agilitypodcast. If you enjoyed today's
episode, share it with someone.
Best way to help us out is byleaving a review on your
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discussed today intrigue you,you will find links to articles

(01:06:11):
discussing them in greater depthin the podcast notes. If you
would like to learn more aboutintercultural intelligence and
how you can become moreculturally agile, you can find
more information and hundreds ofarticles at knowledge works.com
Special thanks to Jason Carterfor composing the music on this

(01:06:31):
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