January 18, 2024 • 34 mins
Nancy Wolf captivates us with her experiences of moving from America to Africa, a decision that propelled her family into a whirlwind of cultural discoveries and personal growth. This journey is not just about relocating geographically but also about transitioning through a cultural metamorphosis, which often requires courage and openness to the unknown.
Her insights illuminate the courage it takes to immerse oneself in an unfamiliar culture and the profound growth that results from such an adventure. Working in a foreign country offers a unique opportunity to form intercultural relationships, and it's these connections that can redefine how one perceives and interacts with the world. Nancy sheds light on the complexities of these relationships, especially in the workplace, and the valuable lessons learned.
Through her experiences, we discover the importance of self-awareness and humility in becoming a cultural learner, and how these qualities can lead to trust and effective teamwork within a diverse setting. It's a rich examination of the power of curiosity and understanding in cultivating successful cross-cultural collaborations.
Mental health professionals will find our discussion on intercultural relationships within counseling particularly enlightening. We delve into how varying cultural worldviews impact communication and conflict resolution in therapeutic settings. Nancy emphasizes the need for continuous learning and intercultural competence among counselors, particularly when supporting clients in intercultural marriages and relationships. Join us as we share stories, insights, and the undeniable importance of cultural agility in an interconnected world. Our conversation serves as a heartfelt reminder of the beauty and complexity of our global tapestry.
In this episode, you will learn:
-- How to develop a cultural learner mindset to be successful in intercultural environments.
-- How to bring intercultural agility into the counseling setting.
-- Skills to transition successfully across cultures.
| Learn More about:
-- Perception Management (https://www.knowledgeworkx.com/framework-perception-management)
-- Four Keys for Building Trust on Teams (http://kwx.fyi/building-trust-teams)
-- Cultural Learners Are Critical to M&A Success (https://www.knowledgeworkx.com/post/cultural-learners-are-critical-to-m-a-success)
-- Looking for a book to take your cultural agility to the next step, check out the Ultimate Intercultural Question Book brought to you by KnowledgeWorkx.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nancy Wolf (00:00):
One of the things that made it a little bit easier
was when we moved to Africa, wewere living in a culture that
was English speaking.
Yes, yeah, it does make adifference.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:07):
Yes.
Nancy Wolf (00:08):
What was a little bit different for me, I think,
is that I carried over thisintercultural worldview
perception that I had that Icould see when I saw someone or
heard them, looked at the waythey dressed, saw their family
rituals, then I knew what theirculture was like, mmm.
And so I think, moving thereand understanding that, I really
(00:32):
was lacking in my understanding.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:47):
Welcome to the cultural agility podcast,
where we explore the stories ofsome of the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world to help you
become culturally agile andsucceed in today's culturally
complex world.
I'm your host, mark RBlankenberg, international
Director of KnowledgeWorks,where every day, we help
(01:08):
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world.
Shelley Reinhart (01:17):
Welcome everyone.
We're so excited again.
We have a very special guesttoday.
She is a person that I highlyrespect and I'm so excited to
ask her questions about herexperience.
I actually introduced her toICI and she has taken it and run
(01:38):
with it and done so many thingswith it, and I'm so excited to
hear what she has done and forher to tell her story.
Her name is Nancy Wolff.
Hello Nancy, hello Shelly.
Nancy Wolf (01:48):
Welcome.
So the first thing I wasexcited about the day was when
we met and had this conversationthat started the whole thing I
will never forget it.
Shelley Reinhart (01:55):
It was such a special memory and to see where
we are today, here together,making this podcast, talking
about how you've used ICI andthe impact it's had.
Nancy Wolf (02:06):
I'm excited to do that.
It's something I've grown moreand more passionate about.
Shelley Reinhart (02:10):
Can't wait.
So thank you for being heretoday.
Let's go ahead and get started,and I'd love to first hear your
story, kind of who you are,where you started, kind of your
background.
Could you just sort of startthere and then we'll expand from
there, sure.
Nancy Wolf (02:29):
Thanks, first of all , for inviting me, absolutely.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:31):
It was a privilege to be able to share
today.
Nancy Wolf (02:33):
So a little bit about me.
I am from the United Statesoriginally.
I grew up in a really mediumsized town with what I thought
was an intercultural experience.
Thought I was living in a verydiverse area, but to me that
just meant my Barbies were whiteand the girl down the street I
(02:55):
played with her Barbies werebrown.
Shelley Reinhart (02:57):
You know I mean in the early days.
I would have said that wasintercultural.
Nancy Wolf (03:02):
I grew up and ended up marrying my high school
boyfriend and after that we hadfour daughters and we just
happily lived within a number ofstreets from our entire family.
Wow, so very smallcircumference that I drew from,
from my world view, very limitedin the exposure.
Then, yeah, we ended up havingfour daughters who are now
(03:27):
married, and we have theblessing of 14 grandchildren.
So that's kind of me from thenuntil now.
Yeah.
Shelley Reinhart (03:35):
So when did you first kind of experience
intercultural living?
When did it start for you?
Nancy Wolf (03:44):
Yes, yeah, yeah, pretty eye-opening experience
that in our mid-30s we were verysettled and in our life, but we
traveled for the first timeoutside of our home country into
a pretty small island nation inAsia and it opened our eyes to
(04:06):
the world.
Wow, it became more than justwhat we saw on TV and movies.
Places that we saw lookdifferent, but to be able to
experience it firsthand on theground really changed our whole
look at life.
Wow, we came home and thoughtare we doing what we really want
to be doing with our life?
(04:27):
And, yeah, that created adesire to move cross-culturally
to serve.
We ended up joining afaith-based organization to be
able to live abroad and to beable to serve people outside of
the home country.
That we knew.
Wow, and you took yourdaughters, we did, we did.
(04:48):
It was quite a big change forthem.
They ranged in age at thatpoint from 7 to 17.
Wow, it was a huge transitionfor every member of our family.
Shelley Reinhart (05:00):
Wow, yes, and the 17-year-old?
Nancy Wolf (05:03):
she was, yeah, close to being a son and daughter,
and I would say that even now,all of our children are
different people because we madethat change in our life.
In fact, two of them did returnand live in our home country,
but two of them still live inAfrica.
Shelley Reinhart (05:21):
Wow.
Nancy Wolf (05:22):
And that's where we ended up moving, just before we
turned 40.
Amazing.
So kind of a late-life change.
Shelley Reinhart (05:30):
Yes, but how brave and risky.
Marco Blankenburgh (05:36):
I do agree with the risky part.
Nancy Wolf (05:39):
It seemed risky at the time.
You know, my husband left athriving business career, wow
and it seemed like our daughterswere all at ages where we knew
this was going to be reallypivotal and formative for them
in their future.
Shelley Reinhart (05:56):
Wow yeah.
Nancy Wolf (05:59):
So one of the things that made it a little bit
easier was when we moved toAfrica, we were living in a
culture that wasEnglish-speaking.
Yes, that doesn't make adifference.
Yes, and what made it a littlebit different for me, I think,
is that I carried over thisintercultural worldview
perception that I had that Icould see when I saw someone or
(06:20):
heard them, looked at the waythey dressed, saw their family
rituals, then I knew what theirculture was like.
So I think, moving there andunderstanding that I really was
lacking in my understanding ofwhat an intercultural worldview
really is, and recognizing thatI wasn't agile in navigating all
(06:43):
of those things, yes, so yeah,so that was my question what
were some of your impressions?
Shelley Reinhart (06:50):
So you've come from a generally monocultural
way of seeing the world up toalmost the age of 40.
Yeah, and you completely liveabroad, and what were some of
your impressions?
Nancy Wolf (07:05):
Yeah Well, I think one way to give some perspective
to our personal experience isto understand that we moved to
South Africa only seven yearspast the election of Nelson
Mandela as president.
So that gives you a bit ofperception of what was happening
in the country at the time and,coming from a faith-based
(07:25):
organization, we had the desireto bring together cultures
within.
South Africa, and so myperception that I could look at
someone and hear them speak andkind of look at how they dress,
and that led me to understandthem, was crashed and burned
right away.
And I understood that therewere so many things I didn't
(07:49):
know, so many things that wereso much deeper than what I could
see and perceive on the surface.
So I appreciate the ICItraining that I've received.
I just wish I'd had it about 25years ago.
Shelley Reinhart (08:05):
Yes, In your interpersonal relationships
there early on.
So you saw that someone had adifferent cultural worldview
than you.
You saw that they maybe thought, spoke differently on a deeper
level and you thought, wow, OK,this is different and I'm not
(08:26):
sure how to relate.
Nancy Wolf (08:28):
Yes, because soon after arriving we started
desiring to build teams,intercultural teams and you find
very quickly that people don'trespond the way that you would
expect them to.
I came from a culture that waspredominantly very direct
speakers and I went into aculture that was a complex
(08:53):
mixture of power, fear and honorshame, and when we started
building teams it seemed asthough we were all focusing on
the same common purpose and thesame vision and mission.
But at the end of the day, Ithink in those early years I
just didn't understand how someof the dynamics of my worldview
(09:16):
and culture were impactingcommunication, trust,
relationships, and once Istarted to understand that I was
navigating a new terrain and Idon't think other people
understood me and I certainlydidn't understand them Right
(09:37):
that I started realizing there'sso much below the surface, kind
of in that iceberg visual thatwe use in the training I
recognized there was so muchmore under the surface than what
I could see above the surface,and that's the part of the
training.
I think that's helped me themost.
Shelley Reinhart (09:56):
You wrote up.
Something that I love about theway we train is that we start
with ourselves First.
We understand our own worldviewand from that place of
self-understanding we canunderstand others, so that I
love that and I love that use,you know, once we understand
that part.
Nancy Wolf (10:17):
Yeah, I mean.
Another way that I've learnedis I'm very time-oriented, and
so when relationship buildingtakes time before you can get to
those deeper levels, to haveopen communication and build
trust, I'm very quick to get tothe point and let's move on with
(10:39):
this and let's decide.
And sometimes I can leavepeople behind in that or
uncomfortable, in a feeling oftension, like I don't know if I
can share my true feelings withwith her.
So yeah, that's been helpful tolearn that through the training
.
Shelley Reinhart (10:57):
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's one of the
dimensions on the 12 dimensionsof culture that we talk about.
Were there any other problems,like specific things that you
saw, like any other, you know,relational things that, looking
back, what about friendships?
(11:17):
Were they easy to make in SouthAfrica?
Nancy Wolf (11:21):
If they were easy to make, because it's.
It's a culture where a lot ofpeople are very revealing of
their emotions and I'm very muchlike that too, and so I could
connect with most of the peoplethat I came into contact with.
(11:43):
What is interesting, shelley, isabout five years ago we moved
away from Africa and into theMiddle East South Asian region,
and that was really my firsttime of being in more of an
honor shame culture and some ofthe ways that I found easy to
connect in one culture werecompletely different, and so the
(12:05):
journey to learn more aboutmyself and how to relate to
others just continued to expandand grow.
Shelley Reinhart (12:11):
Wow, yes, so you mean you're living in one
and you're like I can connectFinally, am I understanding?
This Well in South Africa.
They're more like you.
They're more expressive againthat's a 12th dimension, 12th,
one of the dimensions.
And then in South Asia theywere not.
So you're like this is sodifferent and we're learning a
(12:35):
new way of connecting Exactly.
Wow.
What about when?
So let's talk about when you.
You came to Dubai and we met,and talking about when you were
first introduced to ICI.
What made you interested in ICI, like at the gut level, like
(12:56):
what was happening, that youwere like this meets a need,
sort of on that level.
Nancy Wolf (13:02):
At that point, my husband was in a leadership
position, and so we were workingquite a bit with teams,
intercultural teams and avariety of different countries,
and I found each one to be verydifferent and the dynamics were
harder to understand, becausethere were so many new things
that we needed to relate to, andsome of them were quite
(13:25):
surprising.
One instance is we were workingwith a team that was
experiencing some conflict, andit was an older team that had
developed over many years, andso some of the workers not only
were they older in age, butthey'd been in their new culture
long enough that their primarydriver or the worldview that
(13:49):
they came into the country withwas a different because of their
25, 30 35 years of serving andacclimating to the people that
they were working with and so wewould bring new workers into
that dynamic from the sameculture, thinking they would be
the same in their thinking, onlyto realize that, coming from
(14:13):
the same passport country, notonly did their generational
differences have an impact, butthe change of their worldview.
Just because they came from thesame place didn't mean they were
gonna see their new culture ortheir work environment or their
relationships and how to do team, how to hold meetings all of
(14:36):
those things were impacted.
Shelley Reinhart (14:38):
Interesting, even though on the surface they
seemed like they would have beenthe same right so, in other
words, you're thinking theseworkers are from the same
country, so they're from thesame country.
They were all raised there,we're working with them, right.
So we should agree on how tohold a meeting, how to do the
(14:59):
things of these things.
But the workers that have beenthere for 20 years have sort of
adapted to the cultural normsaround them and the cultural
worldviews and made that a partof them.
Nancy Wolf (15:10):
Yeah, not just a part of them, but their
preference Interesting, wow, yes, and preference is huge, I
think, when you're working inintercultural relationships,
because there are so manypreferences that we have Just
naturally built into our wiringin the way we think that in
other cultures, if they're notvalued highly or they're just
(15:33):
looked at as honorable orshameful or how do you interact
in public versus at home, versuson team, and who do you respect
and honor, who don't you?
I mean, there's so many dynamicsbut sometimes we found that
workers who had been there andestablished in their team longer
(15:56):
agreed more with theirinternational partners than they
did with people we brought inand mobilized into that
environment.
So, yeah, it was an interestingtwist that just created a
desire for me to learn more.
And then I met you, and the ICItraining was a tool that has
equipped us a lot more than wehad been before.
Shelley Reinhart (16:21):
So you got certified and do you think you
were able to apply it right away?
Nancy Wolf (16:28):
Well, I think I have been working to apply it.
I'm fairly newly certified I'mtwo to three years in and I've
been able to apply it inpreparing other workers who are
going to the field, or leaderswho are working to train
intercultural workers, andthat's kind of where my passion
(16:49):
is now.
In fact, we'll soon be making amove back to our home country
where I'll be able to work moreon an organizational level, and
my goal is to train people whoare going to other countries to
work and serve so that theydon't have to go through the
same growing pains that Ipersonally experienced before I
(17:10):
had this training.
I find it to be so helpful.
Shelley Reinhart (17:13):
So you think that just by understanding
someone's own worldview beforethey leave?
Nancy Wolf (17:21):
Completely.
If we don't understand who weare, we are not going to be able
to prefer and love others well.
That's really at the heart, Ifeel, of my mission is living
cross-culturally is for us tohave effective relationships,
effective teams.
We need to be the ones who arewilling to prefer others rather
(17:45):
than well, this is how I am.
You just need to acknowledgehow I do things and how I see
things.
So I think understandingyourself better is key to being
but being able to workeffectively and be highly
productive in whatever yourcommon purpose is to work
together.
Shelley Reinhart (18:06):
Wow, nancy.
I love that.
It's beautiful.
So you're going to trainworkers to understand themselves
better and then give them thetools to understand others
better.
Give them the culturalworldviews that will help them
give grace, understand.
Give them the tools to workbetter.
Nancy Wolf (18:27):
So to be less judgmental and stand typical and
put people in Exactly, and Ithink it will help workers that
are going to establish teams andworks that are going that have
been ongoing for some time, as Imentioned earlier.
But I think it's going to beparticularly helpful for teams
that are going to a new place.
Shelley Reinhart (18:47):
Yeah when there's not.
Nancy Wolf (18:48):
There aren't the people there that they can ask
why is this happening?
Why are we connecting?
I don't feel like there's trustor I'm sensing tension.
If you're going to a new placeand doing something that
nobody's done before whichhappens frequently or you're
working in a way where there'slots of remote workers here in
(19:10):
one location, but the peopleyou're working with are spread
out in different countries ondifferent continents, it's just
going to be a whole lot moreeffective to understand how to
work with them, build teams withthem and really build
relationships.
Shelley Reinhart (19:28):
You know, one thing I hear you saying is
really humility.
Nancy Wolf (19:36):
Wow, it takes a lot of that, doesn't it, Shelly?
Shelley Reinhart (19:39):
I mean, you've lived cross-culturally and you
know that sometimes pride is ourbiggest obstacle and sometimes
we don't even realize that prideis an obstacle, because I don't
even realize that I have acultural worldview that I'm
looking at the rest of the worldthrough.
(19:59):
I don't even realize that thisis my lens and it's shaping how
I see other people and I'mexpecting them to be a certain
way.
I don't even realize it.
Nancy Wolf (20:10):
And we don't understand that a lot of what we
do should be done with the goalof how it's going to be
perceived.
Marco Blankenburgh (20:18):
How will?
Nancy Wolf (20:18):
they perceive me instead of what do I want to
present.
You know, I think when you'restarting to look at the end goal
of your communication, itdoesn't matter so much in how
you do it.
It's whether you're going inthe right direction to build the
relationship, to come to anagreement, to resolve a conflict
(20:40):
.
Shelley Reinhart (20:41):
Yes, and one of the things that we learn
about in the training which Ithink is challenging and almost
provoking is that we need totake responsibility for the
responses that we trigger in anintercultural setting.
And wow, and we can do that.
(21:05):
When we're humble, when we'reopen, when we say OK, I
triggered a defensive responsein someone, or someone was
offended, instead of respondingand like well, but being curious
.
Nancy Wolf (21:19):
You know, my goodness, being curious is huge.
I think, just recognizing thatwe may have more education, we
may have more experience, thatdoesn't mean that we're the
expert Right.
Yeah, and that takes a lot ofhumility to realize that you
(21:39):
come into every situation as alearner.
Shelley Reinhart (21:43):
As a learner, as a cultural learner.
Nancy Wolf (21:46):
A cultural learner versus a cultural critic, which
is another thing that waspointed out to me in the
training, is I don't think Iactually recognize the fact that
I lacked humility when beingexposed to a culture that was
different than my own and tryingto find the value in their
differences rather than provingwhy my way was right.
Shelley Reinhart (22:07):
Right?
Yes, and sometimes you don'teven realize you're trying to
prove that your way is right.
You know you're doing it andyou're like this I'm so
uncomfortable right now.
Why?
Exactly Because there's thisother way and I don't understand
it and it's making meuncomfortable.
But yes, it's all of that.
Nancy Wolf (22:27):
We talk about culture shock and I think one of
the reasons I wanna work withworkers who are just starting
their journey is to understandif you're experiencing tension
and emotional drain from workingso hard to maybe learn a new
language and understandrelationship building, and why
(22:49):
is there tension on my team?
That that's okay.
It should be expected it shouldbe understood.
Shelley Reinhart (22:55):
Yes, it's normal.
Nancy Wolf (22:56):
It's normal because you're working so hard to work
outside of your preferences andwhat are your own personal
behavioral norms so that you canbuild trust with someone who
sees things differently than you.
And that's not something thatgoes away after four months or a
year.
It could be completely ongoing,that extra tension and stress
(23:20):
and it needs to be managed?
Shelley Reinhart (23:23):
Yeah, it does, and I think that intercultural
agility, the tools that we teachat Nelljorks, give you
practical ways to keep going, tonot give up.
Nancy Wolf (23:38):
They do and, shelley , one of the privileges that I
have in the role that I havebeen able to do is to provide
counseling and coaching toworkers, whether they've been
there a long time or a shorttime or just getting ready to go
, and the ICI training hasinfluenced my counseling and
(23:59):
coaching to such a great degree.
Really, interculturalrelationships, such as marriage,
parenting, finances, thestructure of the society, who
leads in the home I mean when aworker is working outside of
their norm there are so manylevels of understanding that
(24:22):
they need to function and tocounsel others, and I find that
to be very true when workingwith someone who's involved in
an intercultural relationship.
Shelley Reinhart (24:36):
So interculturally married or
counseling someone outside yourhome country?
They have a different culturalworld to you than you.
Nancy Wolf (24:47):
Exactly, and I anticipate that it's going to
impact me even to the same orpossibly a greater degree when
we relocate, after the firstyear, back to our home country,
which is the United States,because I don't expect it to be
the same as it was when we leftthere 25 years ago and I'm going
(25:09):
to probably have some of my ownculture shock, but it is so
multicultural and interculturalthey are more so than when I was
growing up in this little townin the Midwest but to be able to
apply some things that I'velearned living globally to the
(25:30):
intercultural relationships thatwe're trying, as a nation and
as a country, to build, and so Ithink it's applicable no matter
where you are in your homecountry or if you're living
abroad.
Shelley Reinhart (25:42):
So just with your neighbors, with anyone
you're interacting with.
I would really love to hearmore about the counseling piece.
So, intercultural agility andcounseling how does it just
practically impact the way thatyou counsel, knowing that the
(26:04):
person you're counseling mayhave a very different cultural
worldview than you do?
Nancy Wolf (26:10):
Does that?
I think it does impactcounselors.
One reason is that over timeI've just created a bit of a
deeper conviction, I suppose,that my expectations of how the
counseling is going to go, themethods that are more productive
than others and sometimes evenmy desired outcomes.
(26:33):
Like, if I counsel this personto say, restore a relationship,
what is that going to look like?
Well, in my worldview I have apicture of what that restored
relationship is going to looklike and how they're going to
get there.
But to understand that in othercultural worldviews forgiveness
(26:55):
looks different, apologies aredifferent, all of those things
would impact a counselor ifthey've just been trained in a
certain way through the lens ofa certain worldview.
Shelley Reinhart (27:09):
Interesting.
So forgiveness andreconciliation are still the
goals, but the process couldlook very different according to
someone's cultural worldview.
Nancy Wolf (27:23):
Exactly, exactly.
I've seen it to be true.
If you come from a directcommunication culture, you
expect words to be shared.
You did this and I expect this,and you're going to talk about
it more openly and yourexpectation of restitution is
(27:44):
going to be very clear.
Someone with an indirectculture, possibly even an honor
shame culture, you may not eventalk about the incident.
Yes, you may tell a story aboutsomething else that happened in
your community, but it actuallyis communicating what you want
to say to the individual thatyou've had a conflict with.
(28:05):
Yes, and so, as a counselor, ifyou're unaware that the
communication is happening, itjust sounds and looks different
than what it is you would do inyour own culture.
Oh, that's challenging.
It's very challenging.
Shelley Reinhart (28:23):
Yeah, because especially if you've a very
Concrete way of saying no, itneeds to happen this way, mm-hmm
.
So again, it's that humilitypiece, understanding the
cultural worldviews at play.
So that could be.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
On the counseling level, yeah,and then just you as a counselor
, knowing that you have aworldview, cultural worldview,
(28:44):
mm-hmm, that you are counselingfrom, how does that and just
what are your thoughts on that?
You just keep that in mind asyou're.
I.
Nancy Wolf (28:55):
Think for me personally, reminding myself to
stay curious.
Oh ask questions.
Don't jump to conclusions orassumptions.
Hmm, it's, you know.
I can't say that for allcounselors.
Marco Blankenburgh (29:12):
Yeah, I just know that for me right.
Nancy Wolf (29:16):
I just need to Really spend the time to develop
a relationship and build thetrust with a counseling before I
expect Any sort of true emotionand feeling and to come back to
me from certain cultures,others not so much.
Yeah, walk in the door and tellyou yes, more than you want to
(29:38):
know.
Shelley Reinhart (29:40):
You know, but others.
Nancy Wolf (29:41):
It takes, takes time , it takes time.
Shelley Reinhart (29:44):
Yeah, we um Nancy and I, are attending the
intercultural agility summitthis weekend.
Yes, yeah, for 2023.
And we attended Bart's summiton trust and we looked at trust
from An innocence, guilt, honor,shame and power fear
perspective.
It wasn't that fascinating.
It's very fascinating.
Nancy Wolf (30:06):
Trust is something that all cultures don't even
agree on the definition, letalone whether it's present or
not exactly.
Shelley Reinhart (30:16):
It was so interesting, and even what
reconciliation looks like Inhonor shame versus innocence
guilt.
You know, we apologize, okay,I'm sorry, I'm never gonna do
this again.
We wrap it up, it's done.
Yeah, but in honor shame, thatis not the way it looks or power
fear, and he kind of went intothat in the session.
So good, so interesting.
(30:38):
We need to get him on a podcast.
Nancy Wolf (30:40):
Yes, you do, yes, you do.
Intercultural marriages, I mean, there's just more and more
common, and so to have umsomeone like Bart who's really
knowledgeable about how, helpingintercultural couples Build
strong marriages, it's soimportant.
Shelley Reinhart (30:56):
Yeah, yeah, again, trust.
Um, it just seems like, again,if you're not aware of world
views, you just be like, yeah,trust, sure, mm-hmm, I got it.
I understand, of course, butit's, it's really affected.
Nancy Wolf (31:09):
It is culture.
Shelley Reinhart (31:11):
So and, and you see that in counseling- yes.
Yeah, definitely yeah.
So if you had, I'm just curious, if you had a dream for
counselors and you knowcounselors, intercultural
counselors what would it be?
I mean, if you could wishsomething for counselors who are
(31:31):
doing it overseas, and whatwould you wish for them?
Nancy Wolf (31:37):
I actually think that counselors should be very
open and even put it on theirbucket list to do the ICI
training.
It has been so impactful for mepersonally because we have a
lot of resources available to usin the country where I'm from
(32:00):
that aren't available in otherparts of the world.
If we can, as counselors, learnmore about doing our counseling
interculturally, we canactually model that for others.
In countries where maybe theydon't have the same access to
information and training, andthat we have the blessing of
having so.
(32:21):
True, we do we do.
That is so true, yes and torealize that you just can't
export your training to anothercountry and just expect it to be
as effective as the way you'veexperienced in your own homeland
.
Shelley Reinhart (32:36):
Yeah, yeah, nancy, this has been such a good
conversation.
Nancy Wolf (32:42):
Thank you, I always enjoy talking to you about this.
Me too, I could talk to you along long time about this.
Shelley Reinhart (32:49):
Um, we just wish you all the best as you
transition back to the us and inyour work there.
So you'll be, doing counselingand training workers to go
overseas.
That's the plan, exciting.
Yes, I am excited and theimpact you'll have on many
people.
Marco Blankenburgh (33:09):
Thank you so for having me absolutely.
Shelley Reinhart (33:12):
Thank you for coming in today and we'll we'll
I'm sure we'll talk to you againat some point.
Marco Blankenburgh (33:17):
Thank you so much for joining us for this
episode of the cultural agilitypodcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,share it with someone.
The best way to help us out isby leaving a review on your
favorite podcast app or channel,or forward and recommend this
podcast to people around you.
As always, if any of the topicswe discuss today intrigue you,
(33:39):
you will find links to articlesdiscussing them in greater depth
in the podcast notes.
If you would like to learn moreabout intercultural
intelligence and how you canbecome more culturally agile,
you can find more informationand hundreds of articles at
knowledgeworkscom.
A special thanks to JasonCarter for composing the music
(34:01):
on this podcast and to the wholeknowledgeworks team for making
this podcast a success.
Thank you, nita Rodriguez, ara,aziz-bakyan, rajitha Raj, and
thanks to VIP and George foraudio production, rosalind Raj
for scheduling and Kalypstrausfor marketing and helping
produce this podcast.
One of the things that made it a little bit easier
was when we moved to Africa, wewere living in a culture that
was English speaking.
Yes, yeah, it does make adifference.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:07):
Yes.
Nancy Wolf (00:08):
What was a little bit different for me, I think,
is that I carried over thisintercultural worldview
perception that I had that Icould see when I saw someone or
heard them, looked at the waythey dressed, saw their family
rituals, then I knew what theirculture was like, mmm.
And so I think, moving thereand understanding that, I really
(00:32):
was lacking in my understanding.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:47):
Welcome to the cultural agility podcast,
where we explore the stories ofsome of the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world to help you
become culturally agile andsucceed in today's culturally
complex world.
I'm your host, mark RBlankenberg, international
Director of KnowledgeWorks,where every day, we help
(01:08):
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world.
Shelley Reinhart (01:17):
Welcome everyone.
We're so excited again.
We have a very special guesttoday.
She is a person that I highlyrespect and I'm so excited to
ask her questions about herexperience.
I actually introduced her toICI and she has taken it and run
(01:38):
with it and done so many thingswith it, and I'm so excited to
hear what she has done and forher to tell her story.
Her name is Nancy Wolff.
Hello Nancy, hello Shelly.
Nancy Wolf (01:48):
Welcome.
So the first thing I wasexcited about the day was when
we met and had this conversationthat started the whole thing I
will never forget it.
Shelley Reinhart (01:55):
It was such a special memory and to see where
we are today, here together,making this podcast, talking
about how you've used ICI andthe impact it's had.
Nancy Wolf (02:06):
I'm excited to do that.
It's something I've grown moreand more passionate about.
Shelley Reinhart (02:10):
Can't wait.
So thank you for being heretoday.
Let's go ahead and get started,and I'd love to first hear your
story, kind of who you are,where you started, kind of your
background.
Could you just sort of startthere and then we'll expand from
there, sure.
Nancy Wolf (02:29):
Thanks, first of all , for inviting me, absolutely.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:31):
It was a privilege to be able to share
today.
Nancy Wolf (02:33):
So a little bit about me.
I am from the United Statesoriginally.
I grew up in a really mediumsized town with what I thought
was an intercultural experience.
Thought I was living in a verydiverse area, but to me that
just meant my Barbies were whiteand the girl down the street I
(02:55):
played with her Barbies werebrown.
Shelley Reinhart (02:57):
You know I mean in the early days.
I would have said that wasintercultural.
Nancy Wolf (03:02):
I grew up and ended up marrying my high school
boyfriend and after that we hadfour daughters and we just
happily lived within a number ofstreets from our entire family.
Wow, so very smallcircumference that I drew from,
from my world view, very limitedin the exposure.
Then, yeah, we ended up havingfour daughters who are now
(03:27):
married, and we have theblessing of 14 grandchildren.
So that's kind of me from thenuntil now.
Yeah.
Shelley Reinhart (03:35):
So when did you first kind of experience
intercultural living?
When did it start for you?
Nancy Wolf (03:44):
Yes, yeah, yeah, pretty eye-opening experience
that in our mid-30s we were verysettled and in our life, but we
traveled for the first timeoutside of our home country into
a pretty small island nation inAsia and it opened our eyes to
(04:06):
the world.
Wow, it became more than justwhat we saw on TV and movies.
Places that we saw lookdifferent, but to be able to
experience it firsthand on theground really changed our whole
look at life.
Wow, we came home and thoughtare we doing what we really want
to be doing with our life?
(04:27):
And, yeah, that created adesire to move cross-culturally
to serve.
We ended up joining afaith-based organization to be
able to live abroad and to beable to serve people outside of
the home country.
That we knew.
Wow, and you took yourdaughters, we did, we did.
(04:48):
It was quite a big change forthem.
They ranged in age at thatpoint from 7 to 17.
Wow, it was a huge transitionfor every member of our family.
Shelley Reinhart (05:00):
Wow, yes, and the 17-year-old?
Nancy Wolf (05:03):
she was, yeah, close to being a son and daughter,
and I would say that even now,all of our children are
different people because we madethat change in our life.
In fact, two of them did returnand live in our home country,
but two of them still live inAfrica.
Shelley Reinhart (05:21):
Wow.
Nancy Wolf (05:22):
And that's where we ended up moving, just before we
turned 40.
Amazing.
So kind of a late-life change.
Shelley Reinhart (05:30):
Yes, but how brave and risky.
Marco Blankenburgh (05:36):
I do agree with the risky part.
Nancy Wolf (05:39):
It seemed risky at the time.
You know, my husband left athriving business career, wow
and it seemed like our daughterswere all at ages where we knew
this was going to be reallypivotal and formative for them
in their future.
Shelley Reinhart (05:56):
Wow yeah.
Nancy Wolf (05:59):
So one of the things that made it a little bit
easier was when we moved toAfrica, we were living in a
culture that wasEnglish-speaking.
Yes, that doesn't make adifference.
Yes, and what made it a littlebit different for me, I think,
is that I carried over thisintercultural worldview
perception that I had that Icould see when I saw someone or
(06:20):
heard them, looked at the waythey dressed, saw their family
rituals, then I knew what theirculture was like.
So I think, moving there andunderstanding that I really was
lacking in my understanding ofwhat an intercultural worldview
really is, and recognizing thatI wasn't agile in navigating all
(06:43):
of those things, yes, so yeah,so that was my question what
were some of your impressions?
Shelley Reinhart (06:50):
So you've come from a generally monocultural
way of seeing the world up toalmost the age of 40.
Yeah, and you completely liveabroad, and what were some of
your impressions?
Nancy Wolf (07:05):
Yeah Well, I think one way to give some perspective
to our personal experience isto understand that we moved to
South Africa only seven yearspast the election of Nelson
Mandela as president.
So that gives you a bit ofperception of what was happening
in the country at the time and,coming from a faith-based
(07:25):
organization, we had the desireto bring together cultures
within.
South Africa, and so myperception that I could look at
someone and hear them speak andkind of look at how they dress,
and that led me to understandthem, was crashed and burned
right away.
And I understood that therewere so many things I didn't
(07:49):
know, so many things that wereso much deeper than what I could
see and perceive on the surface.
So I appreciate the ICItraining that I've received.
I just wish I'd had it about 25years ago.
Shelley Reinhart (08:05):
Yes, In your interpersonal relationships
there early on.
So you saw that someone had adifferent cultural worldview
than you.
You saw that they maybe thought, spoke differently on a deeper
level and you thought, wow, OK,this is different and I'm not
(08:26):
sure how to relate.
Nancy Wolf (08:28):
Yes, because soon after arriving we started
desiring to build teams,intercultural teams and you find
very quickly that people don'trespond the way that you would
expect them to.
I came from a culture that waspredominantly very direct
speakers and I went into aculture that was a complex
(08:53):
mixture of power, fear and honorshame, and when we started
building teams it seemed asthough we were all focusing on
the same common purpose and thesame vision and mission.
But at the end of the day, Ithink in those early years I
just didn't understand how someof the dynamics of my worldview
(09:16):
and culture were impactingcommunication, trust,
relationships, and once Istarted to understand that I was
navigating a new terrain and Idon't think other people
understood me and I certainlydidn't understand them Right
(09:37):
that I started realizing there'sso much below the surface, kind
of in that iceberg visual thatwe use in the training I
recognized there was so muchmore under the surface than what
I could see above the surface,and that's the part of the
training.
I think that's helped me themost.
Shelley Reinhart (09:56):
You wrote up.
Something that I love about theway we train is that we start
with ourselves First.
We understand our own worldviewand from that place of
self-understanding we canunderstand others, so that I
love that and I love that use,you know, once we understand
that part.
Nancy Wolf (10:17):
Yeah, I mean.
Another way that I've learnedis I'm very time-oriented, and
so when relationship buildingtakes time before you can get to
those deeper levels, to haveopen communication and build
trust, I'm very quick to get tothe point and let's move on with
(10:39):
this and let's decide.
And sometimes I can leavepeople behind in that or
uncomfortable, in a feeling oftension, like I don't know if I
can share my true feelings withwith her.
So yeah, that's been helpful tolearn that through the training
.
Shelley Reinhart (10:57):
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's one of the
dimensions on the 12 dimensionsof culture that we talk about.
Were there any other problems,like specific things that you
saw, like any other, you know,relational things that, looking
back, what about friendships?
(11:17):
Were they easy to make in SouthAfrica?
Nancy Wolf (11:21):
If they were easy to make, because it's.
It's a culture where a lot ofpeople are very revealing of
their emotions and I'm very muchlike that too, and so I could
connect with most of the peoplethat I came into contact with.
(11:43):
What is interesting, shelley, isabout five years ago we moved
away from Africa and into theMiddle East South Asian region,
and that was really my firsttime of being in more of an
honor shame culture and some ofthe ways that I found easy to
connect in one culture werecompletely different, and so the
(12:05):
journey to learn more aboutmyself and how to relate to
others just continued to expandand grow.
Shelley Reinhart (12:11):
Wow, yes, so you mean you're living in one
and you're like I can connectFinally, am I understanding?
This Well in South Africa.
They're more like you.
They're more expressive againthat's a 12th dimension, 12th,
one of the dimensions.
And then in South Asia theywere not.
So you're like this is sodifferent and we're learning a
(12:35):
new way of connecting Exactly.
Wow.
What about when?
So let's talk about when you.
You came to Dubai and we met,and talking about when you were
first introduced to ICI.
What made you interested in ICI, like at the gut level, like
(12:56):
what was happening, that youwere like this meets a need,
sort of on that level.
Nancy Wolf (13:02):
At that point, my husband was in a leadership
position, and so we were workingquite a bit with teams,
intercultural teams and avariety of different countries,
and I found each one to be verydifferent and the dynamics were
harder to understand, becausethere were so many new things
that we needed to relate to, andsome of them were quite
(13:25):
surprising.
One instance is we were workingwith a team that was
experiencing some conflict, andit was an older team that had
developed over many years, andso some of the workers not only
were they older in age, butthey'd been in their new culture
long enough that their primarydriver or the worldview that
(13:49):
they came into the country withwas a different because of their
25, 30 35 years of serving andacclimating to the people that
they were working with and so wewould bring new workers into
that dynamic from the sameculture, thinking they would be
the same in their thinking, onlyto realize that, coming from
(14:13):
the same passport country, notonly did their generational
differences have an impact, butthe change of their worldview.
Just because they came from thesame place didn't mean they were
gonna see their new culture ortheir work environment or their
relationships and how to do team, how to hold meetings all of
(14:36):
those things were impacted.
Shelley Reinhart (14:38):
Interesting, even though on the surface they
seemed like they would have beenthe same right so, in other
words, you're thinking theseworkers are from the same
country, so they're from thesame country.
They were all raised there,we're working with them, right.
So we should agree on how tohold a meeting, how to do the
(14:59):
things of these things.
But the workers that have beenthere for 20 years have sort of
adapted to the cultural normsaround them and the cultural
worldviews and made that a partof them.
Nancy Wolf (15:10):
Yeah, not just a part of them, but their
preference Interesting, wow, yes, and preference is huge, I
think, when you're working inintercultural relationships,
because there are so manypreferences that we have Just
naturally built into our wiringin the way we think that in
other cultures, if they're notvalued highly or they're just
(15:33):
looked at as honorable orshameful or how do you interact
in public versus at home, versuson team, and who do you respect
and honor, who don't you?
I mean, there's so many dynamicsbut sometimes we found that
workers who had been there andestablished in their team longer
(15:56):
agreed more with theirinternational partners than they
did with people we brought inand mobilized into that
environment.
So, yeah, it was an interestingtwist that just created a
desire for me to learn more.
And then I met you, and the ICItraining was a tool that has
equipped us a lot more than wehad been before.
Shelley Reinhart (16:21):
So you got certified and do you think you
were able to apply it right away?
Nancy Wolf (16:28):
Well, I think I have been working to apply it.
I'm fairly newly certified I'mtwo to three years in and I've
been able to apply it inpreparing other workers who are
going to the field, or leaderswho are working to train
intercultural workers, andthat's kind of where my passion
(16:49):
is now.
In fact, we'll soon be making amove back to our home country
where I'll be able to work moreon an organizational level, and
my goal is to train people whoare going to other countries to
work and serve so that theydon't have to go through the
same growing pains that Ipersonally experienced before I
(17:10):
had this training.
I find it to be so helpful.
Shelley Reinhart (17:13):
So you think that just by understanding
someone's own worldview beforethey leave?
Nancy Wolf (17:21):
Completely.
If we don't understand who weare, we are not going to be able
to prefer and love others well.
That's really at the heart, Ifeel, of my mission is living
cross-culturally is for us tohave effective relationships,
effective teams.
We need to be the ones who arewilling to prefer others rather
(17:45):
than well, this is how I am.
You just need to acknowledgehow I do things and how I see
things.
So I think understandingyourself better is key to being
but being able to workeffectively and be highly
productive in whatever yourcommon purpose is to work
together.
Shelley Reinhart (18:06):
Wow, nancy.
I love that.
It's beautiful.
So you're going to trainworkers to understand themselves
better and then give them thetools to understand others
better.
Give them the culturalworldviews that will help them
give grace, understand.
Give them the tools to workbetter.
Nancy Wolf (18:27):
So to be less judgmental and stand typical and
put people in Exactly, and Ithink it will help workers that
are going to establish teams andworks that are going that have
been ongoing for some time, as Imentioned earlier.
But I think it's going to beparticularly helpful for teams
that are going to a new place.
Shelley Reinhart (18:47):
Yeah when there's not.
Nancy Wolf (18:48):
There aren't the people there that they can ask
why is this happening?
Why are we connecting?
I don't feel like there's trustor I'm sensing tension.
If you're going to a new placeand doing something that
nobody's done before whichhappens frequently or you're
working in a way where there'slots of remote workers here in
(19:10):
one location, but the peopleyou're working with are spread
out in different countries ondifferent continents, it's just
going to be a whole lot moreeffective to understand how to
work with them, build teams withthem and really build
relationships.
Shelley Reinhart (19:28):
You know, one thing I hear you saying is
really humility.
Nancy Wolf (19:36):
Wow, it takes a lot of that, doesn't it, Shelly?
Shelley Reinhart (19:39):
I mean, you've lived cross-culturally and you
know that sometimes pride is ourbiggest obstacle and sometimes
we don't even realize that prideis an obstacle, because I don't
even realize that I have acultural worldview that I'm
looking at the rest of the worldthrough.
(19:59):
I don't even realize that thisis my lens and it's shaping how
I see other people and I'mexpecting them to be a certain
way.
I don't even realize it.
Nancy Wolf (20:10):
And we don't understand that a lot of what we
do should be done with the goalof how it's going to be
perceived.
Marco Blankenburgh (20:18):
How will?
Nancy Wolf (20:18):
they perceive me instead of what do I want to
present.
You know, I think when you'restarting to look at the end goal
of your communication, itdoesn't matter so much in how
you do it.
It's whether you're going inthe right direction to build the
relationship, to come to anagreement, to resolve a conflict
(20:40):
.
Shelley Reinhart (20:41):
Yes, and one of the things that we learn
about in the training which Ithink is challenging and almost
provoking is that we need totake responsibility for the
responses that we trigger in anintercultural setting.
And wow, and we can do that.
(21:05):
When we're humble, when we'reopen, when we say OK, I
triggered a defensive responsein someone, or someone was
offended, instead of respondingand like well, but being curious
.
Nancy Wolf (21:19):
You know, my goodness, being curious is huge.
I think, just recognizing thatwe may have more education, we
may have more experience, thatdoesn't mean that we're the
expert Right.
Yeah, and that takes a lot ofhumility to realize that you
(21:39):
come into every situation as alearner.
Shelley Reinhart (21:43):
As a learner, as a cultural learner.
Nancy Wolf (21:46):
A cultural learner versus a cultural critic, which
is another thing that waspointed out to me in the
training, is I don't think Iactually recognize the fact that
I lacked humility when beingexposed to a culture that was
different than my own and tryingto find the value in their
differences rather than provingwhy my way was right.
Shelley Reinhart (22:07):
Right?
Yes, and sometimes you don'teven realize you're trying to
prove that your way is right.
You know you're doing it andyou're like this I'm so
uncomfortable right now.
Why?
Exactly Because there's thisother way and I don't understand
it and it's making meuncomfortable.
But yes, it's all of that.
Nancy Wolf (22:27):
We talk about culture shock and I think one of
the reasons I wanna work withworkers who are just starting
their journey is to understandif you're experiencing tension
and emotional drain from workingso hard to maybe learn a new
language and understandrelationship building, and why
(22:49):
is there tension on my team?
That that's okay.
It should be expected it shouldbe understood.
Shelley Reinhart (22:55):
Yes, it's normal.
Nancy Wolf (22:56):
It's normal because you're working so hard to work
outside of your preferences andwhat are your own personal
behavioral norms so that you canbuild trust with someone who
sees things differently than you.
And that's not something thatgoes away after four months or a
year.
It could be completely ongoing,that extra tension and stress
(23:20):
and it needs to be managed?
Shelley Reinhart (23:23):
Yeah, it does, and I think that intercultural
agility, the tools that we teachat Nelljorks, give you
practical ways to keep going, tonot give up.
Nancy Wolf (23:38):
They do and, shelley , one of the privileges that I
have in the role that I havebeen able to do is to provide
counseling and coaching toworkers, whether they've been
there a long time or a shorttime or just getting ready to go
, and the ICI training hasinfluenced my counseling and
(23:59):
coaching to such a great degree.
Really, interculturalrelationships, such as marriage,
parenting, finances, thestructure of the society, who
leads in the home I mean when aworker is working outside of
their norm there are so manylevels of understanding that
(24:22):
they need to function and tocounsel others, and I find that
to be very true when workingwith someone who's involved in
an intercultural relationship.
Shelley Reinhart (24:36):
So interculturally married or
counseling someone outside yourhome country?
They have a different culturalworld to you than you.
Nancy Wolf (24:47):
Exactly, and I anticipate that it's going to
impact me even to the same orpossibly a greater degree when
we relocate, after the firstyear, back to our home country,
which is the United States,because I don't expect it to be
the same as it was when we leftthere 25 years ago and I'm going
(25:09):
to probably have some of my ownculture shock, but it is so
multicultural and interculturalthey are more so than when I was
growing up in this little townin the Midwest but to be able to
apply some things that I'velearned living globally to the
(25:30):
intercultural relationships thatwe're trying, as a nation and
as a country, to build, and so Ithink it's applicable no matter
where you are in your homecountry or if you're living
abroad.
Shelley Reinhart (25:42):
So just with your neighbors, with anyone
you're interacting with.
I would really love to hearmore about the counseling piece.
So, intercultural agility andcounseling how does it just
practically impact the way thatyou counsel, knowing that the
(26:04):
person you're counseling mayhave a very different cultural
worldview than you do?
Nancy Wolf (26:10):
Does that?
I think it does impactcounselors.
One reason is that over timeI've just created a bit of a
deeper conviction, I suppose,that my expectations of how the
counseling is going to go, themethods that are more productive
than others and sometimes evenmy desired outcomes.
(26:33):
Like, if I counsel this personto say, restore a relationship,
what is that going to look like?
Well, in my worldview I have apicture of what that restored
relationship is going to looklike and how they're going to
get there.
But to understand that in othercultural worldviews forgiveness
(26:55):
looks different, apologies aredifferent, all of those things
would impact a counselor ifthey've just been trained in a
certain way through the lens ofa certain worldview.
Shelley Reinhart (27:09):
Interesting.
So forgiveness andreconciliation are still the
goals, but the process couldlook very different according to
someone's cultural worldview.
Nancy Wolf (27:23):
Exactly, exactly.
I've seen it to be true.
If you come from a directcommunication culture, you
expect words to be shared.
You did this and I expect this,and you're going to talk about
it more openly and yourexpectation of restitution is
(27:44):
going to be very clear.
Someone with an indirectculture, possibly even an honor
shame culture, you may not eventalk about the incident.
Yes, you may tell a story aboutsomething else that happened in
your community, but it actuallyis communicating what you want
to say to the individual thatyou've had a conflict with.
(28:05):
Yes, and so, as a counselor, ifyou're unaware that the
communication is happening, itjust sounds and looks different
than what it is you would do inyour own culture.
Oh, that's challenging.
It's very challenging.
Shelley Reinhart (28:23):
Yeah, because especially if you've a very
Concrete way of saying no, itneeds to happen this way, mm-hmm
.
So again, it's that humilitypiece, understanding the
cultural worldviews at play.
So that could be.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
On the counseling level, yeah,and then just you as a counselor
, knowing that you have aworldview, cultural worldview,
(28:44):
mm-hmm, that you are counselingfrom, how does that and just
what are your thoughts on that?
You just keep that in mind asyou're.
I.
Nancy Wolf (28:55):
Think for me personally, reminding myself to
stay curious.
Oh ask questions.
Don't jump to conclusions orassumptions.
Hmm, it's, you know.
I can't say that for allcounselors.
Marco Blankenburgh (29:12):
Yeah, I just know that for me right.
Nancy Wolf (29:16):
I just need to Really spend the time to develop
a relationship and build thetrust with a counseling before I
expect Any sort of true emotionand feeling and to come back to
me from certain cultures,others not so much.
Yeah, walk in the door and tellyou yes, more than you want to
(29:38):
know.
Shelley Reinhart (29:40):
You know, but others.
Nancy Wolf (29:41):
It takes, takes time , it takes time.
Shelley Reinhart (29:44):
Yeah, we um Nancy and I, are attending the
intercultural agility summitthis weekend.
Yes, yeah, for 2023.
And we attended Bart's summiton trust and we looked at trust
from An innocence, guilt, honor,shame and power fear
perspective.
It wasn't that fascinating.
It's very fascinating.
Nancy Wolf (30:06):
Trust is something that all cultures don't even
agree on the definition, letalone whether it's present or
not exactly.
Shelley Reinhart (30:16):
It was so interesting, and even what
reconciliation looks like Inhonor shame versus innocence
guilt.
You know, we apologize, okay,I'm sorry, I'm never gonna do
this again.
We wrap it up, it's done.
Yeah, but in honor shame, thatis not the way it looks or power
fear, and he kind of went intothat in the session.
So good, so interesting.
(30:38):
We need to get him on a podcast.
Nancy Wolf (30:40):
Yes, you do, yes, you do.
Intercultural marriages, I mean, there's just more and more
common, and so to have umsomeone like Bart who's really
knowledgeable about how, helpingintercultural couples Build
strong marriages, it's soimportant.
Shelley Reinhart (30:56):
Yeah, yeah, again, trust.
Um, it just seems like, again,if you're not aware of world
views, you just be like, yeah,trust, sure, mm-hmm, I got it.
I understand, of course, butit's, it's really affected.
Nancy Wolf (31:09):
It is culture.
Shelley Reinhart (31:11):
So and, and you see that in counseling- yes.
Yeah, definitely yeah.
So if you had, I'm just curious, if you had a dream for
counselors and you knowcounselors, intercultural
counselors what would it be?
I mean, if you could wishsomething for counselors who are
(31:31):
doing it overseas, and whatwould you wish for them?
Nancy Wolf (31:37):
I actually think that counselors should be very
open and even put it on theirbucket list to do the ICI
training.
It has been so impactful for mepersonally because we have a
lot of resources available to usin the country where I'm from
(32:00):
that aren't available in otherparts of the world.
If we can, as counselors, learnmore about doing our counseling
interculturally, we canactually model that for others.
In countries where maybe theydon't have the same access to
information and training, andthat we have the blessing of
having so.
(32:21):
True, we do we do.
That is so true, yes and torealize that you just can't
export your training to anothercountry and just expect it to be
as effective as the way you'veexperienced in your own homeland
.
Shelley Reinhart (32:36):
Yeah, yeah, nancy, this has been such a good
conversation.
Nancy Wolf (32:42):
Thank you, I always enjoy talking to you about this.
Me too, I could talk to you along long time about this.
Shelley Reinhart (32:49):
Um, we just wish you all the best as you
transition back to the us and inyour work there.
So you'll be, doing counselingand training workers to go
overseas.
That's the plan, exciting.
Yes, I am excited and theimpact you'll have on many
people.
Marco Blankenburgh (33:09):
Thank you so for having me absolutely.
Shelley Reinhart (33:12):
Thank you for coming in today and we'll we'll
I'm sure we'll talk to you againat some point.
Marco Blankenburgh (33:17):
Thank you so much for joining us for this
episode of the cultural agilitypodcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,share it with someone.
The best way to help us out isby leaving a review on your
favorite podcast app or channel,or forward and recommend this
podcast to people around you.
As always, if any of the topicswe discuss today intrigue you,
(33:39):
you will find links to articlesdiscussing them in greater depth
in the podcast notes.
If you would like to learn moreabout intercultural
intelligence and how you canbecome more culturally agile,
you can find more informationand hundreds of articles at
knowledgeworkscom.
A special thanks to JasonCarter for composing the music
(34:01):
on this podcast and to the wholeknowledgeworks team for making
this podcast a success.
Thank you, nita Rodriguez, ara,aziz-bakyan, rajitha Raj, and
thanks to VIP and George foraudio production, rosalind Raj
for scheduling and Kalypstrausfor marketing and helping
produce this podcast.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.