Discovering the 12 Dimensions of Culture | Part 1 - Unlocking Cultural Agility with Marco Blankenburgh

Episode Transcript
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Shelley Reinhart (00:01):
Unlocking Cultural Agility Podcast.
We are so excited about thisepisode because we're going to
explore the 12 dimensions ofculture which is found in our
cultural mapping inventoryassessment, and the cultural
mapping inventory assessment isa very important piece of our

(00:24):
KnowledgeWorks interculturalintelligence framework.
And so today is an excitingepisode because we are basically
going to unpack for you thisvery important piece of our
framework what the 12 dimensionsare, and give examples and
really explore them in detail.
So thrilled to be here todaywith Marco, our international

(00:45):
director Wonderful Thanks.
Thanks for coming on again,marco.

Marco Blankenburgh (00:52):
Yeah, great topic to be unpacking.

Yes.

I don't know if we actually have enough time
in one episode, but I know.

Like, we have 12 and we have a certain number
of minutes, but it's going to begreat to explore all of them,
so let's just go ahead and getstarted.
And, marco, the first questionI'd love to ask you is where did
the 12 dimensions come from?
How did they even come to be?

Yeah, in 2000, we pulled a team together
in Dubai and we started to lookat the world of intercultural
and we initially startedordering a whole bunch of books
from, in those days,intercultural press.
And the more books we ordered,the more we realized that all
those books were really talkingabout one nationality versus
another nationality.
Or if the books came from NorthAmerica, it was, you know, one

(01:53):
racial affiliation versusanother racial affiliation.
When we were living in, even inthose days already, one of the
most international interculturalcities in the world, dubai, and
we realized a lot of the thingsthat people are saying in those
books are not necessarilyalways true and sometimes can

(02:16):
even backfire on you, becausethe average German, the average
Brazilian, the average Saudidoesn't really exist.
So we then said, okay, is therepotentially another way to deal
with this?
And that's where we landed onthis idea that what if we start
to treat every human being as auniquely wired cultural human

(02:40):
being?
What if each one of us isunique culturally because of the
journey we've gone, the placeswe've lived, the things we've
been exposed to, etc.
And although that wasn't in andof itself a new idea, because
in the world of psychology thathas been done for years, since
the 70s, you have sort ofuniversally applicable

(03:00):
frameworks like Myers-Briggs orDISC or StrengthsFinders etc.
And based on those universalframeworks, assessments or
questionnaires are created andthose result in a personalized
report.
So we said could we potentiallydo something similar in the

(03:21):
world of culture?
Do something similar in theworld of culture and that's
where our three colors ofworldview came from.
yes, and the 12 dimensionsreally build on the three colors
of worldview.
In trying to answer thequestion, who am I as a cultural
human being?
And that's where the culturalmapping inventory came from.

(03:42):
Now, it wasn't built't built,you know, out from scratch.
Really, in some ways it was.
But what we did was we looked atall the possible polarities
that were accessible in theworld of culture and at that
point in time, in late 2000,early 2001,.
There were roughly 21 oppositesthat were documented in

(04:06):
academia, and you need to thinkabout people like Edward T Hall
and GJ Hofstede and vonStrompenhuis.
Those were the main voices atthat time and there were a few
others, but in total there were21 opposites that we could find
in academic writing and inavailable paper assessments in

(04:29):
those days.
And we then said, well, if Iwant to answer the question, who
am I as a cultural human being,what set of polarities do we
want?
And that started a long weeksand weeks of discussion, pulling

(04:49):
them apart and consolidatingthem and pulling them apart
again and restructuring them,and that's how we eventually
landed on these 12.
, believing that if you havethese 12 and if your personal
cultural preferences aremeasured on these 12, you create
a rich and quite comprehensivepicture so that you can answer

(05:09):
that question who am I as acultural human being?

Yes.
So why develop this tool toonly focus on personal cultural
preferences?
Personal cultural preferenceswhy that focus?

Yeah, that was in those days.
It was a radical choice, let meput it that way.
This idea.
You know I'm Dutch and sohappens to be that Hofstede was
Dutch and Trompenaars is Dutch,so they did brilliant work,
hofstede in the 80s andTrompenaerts in the 90s, and

(05:48):
still today, he's still veryactive.
Really, they were the firstpeople, together with Hall, in
the 60s 70s, to say well,cultures are unique and we need
to learn to quantify in whichway cultures are unique.
And we need a learn to quantifyin which way cultures are
unique and we need a languagefor that.
That's where the idea ofopposites came from, and we took

(06:11):
that same idea into the culturemapping, inventory, the 12
dimensions, but they all focusedon national culture,
understanding national cultureyes.
And there is, of course,generalizations to be made that
are to some extent helpful, butwe were starting our journey in

(06:35):
the truly intercultural fabricof a place like Dubai.
And we felt, okay, now we couldjump on the bandwagon with
everybody else and we could saywell, these tools are going to
be used to create averages forevery nationality that we have
on our database.
But we said wait a minute,where's the world going?
What's the world becoming?

(06:56):
And even then we felt the worldis going to become more and
more intercultural.
People are going to be movingmore and more, and we didn't
know at that time, for instance,that, as we are recording, we
have over 120 million displacedpeople in the world.
We have roughly 300 millionthird cultural kids or

(07:20):
cross-cultural kids.
We have 300 million, millionplus people, close to 300
million people that are notliving in the country of their
passport, etc.
So it what we felt in 2001 hasbecome true even faster than we
thought.
So the world has become superintercultural.
People are either now virtuallyrelocating, as in they live in

(07:46):
one, but they work for a companyor an organization in another
part of the world, theircolleagues are from everywhere.
They might virtually becollaborating or they literally
relocate.
So talent is on right aroundthe world.
Talent is on the move.
The world talent is on the move.

(08:06):
So we we've said that that timewe want to develop tools that
don't look at national averageson cultural preference.
We want to develop tools thathelp an individual understand
who they are as as a culturalhuman being, in the same way as
you do in the world ofpsychology, where you have a
personality test or things likethat.
And we, we also believe that ifyou know how to do that for

(08:30):
yourself and you learn how to dothat on the fly with other
people, the magic starts tohappen yes, so the ability to
build cultural bridges betweentwo human beings exponentially
increases.
The other thing we found wasthat as we started to apply

(08:50):
these tools, we realized peopleare relying less on stereotypes
and preconceived ideas about ohI'm talking to an American, oh,
I'm talking to an Argentinianthat idea that the average
Argentinian exists and once Ifind out that that's the country

(09:13):
somebody came from, it canreally throw me off in terms of
how I engage in the conversation, how I think about the person
in front of me.
So we found that brain tendencyto put somebody in a box.
Be done with the questions youknow.

(09:34):
Say, oh, I already know who youare as a cultural human being.
When we use these tools, thatgets diminished.

Yes, I mean, it's Marco.
I've heard you describe this somany times and every time I
still think to myself this ispretty radical.
I mean, we've been doing thisat KnowledgeWorks for what?
20 plus years, but still I'mjust like, yes, this is unusual,

(10:05):
this isn't the way the majorityof the world goes about others,
but still I'm just like, yes,this, this is unusual, this
isn't the way the majority ofthe world goes about you know,
yeah, and it is a bit.

It is a bit harder in the beginning because
all of a sudden you can't relyon oh, you're German.
Oh, now I know.

Yeah.

Oh, you're South Korean, you know now I
know you.
Yeah, oh, you're South Korean,you know now I know everything
about you.
So it is harder at thebeginning, but it is so much
richer and more accurate as well, because you know, if I know
your personal culturalpreferences and I have a
language to talk about it, thechance that we will connect as

(10:44):
cultural human beings isincreased significantly.
And you know, relying less onthe outside rapper is beneficial
for the relationship.
You know definitely.

Yes, the saying in English, you know, you
can't judge a book by its coveris very much true for us as
cultural human beings I mean,and this has also given me a
tool for some very powerfulself-reflection, so
understanding others, but trulyunderstanding myself as well as

(11:16):
a cultural human being, um andthat.
That's also the goal.
Yeah, I mean understandingyourself and others and building
those cultural bridges.
Yeah, that's why I love thistool yeah.

Very much an inside-out approach.

Inside-out.
So it starts with yourself.

Yeah, explore who you are, embrace who
you are as a cultural humanbeing, and then use that same
approach to try and understandother people, and then build the
bridge or develop the culture.
Yes, make the sale servicepeople in your ngo yeah yeah,

(11:57):
I've seen it happen.

I've seen as we unpack this report with so
many people it it's it's amazingto watch it in action.
So we sort of talked about howthis is different from the
voices that have come before.
Um, and you landed on 12.
You said there was 21.
That was sort of out there inthe literature.
12 is a lot, so give me areason for 12.

(12:22):
Yeah, why is that?

We went back and forth and we fought the 12
and trying to condense it, andevery time we went back to the
question does thiscomprehensively describe who I
am as a cultural human being?
I am as a cultural human beingor if I need to face, if I need

(12:49):
to deal with an interculturaldilemma and I'm called in to try
and help people understand whydid this happen with?
How did we end up in this placeand how do can we unravel or
move forward in a constructiveway.
Every time we tried to condensethings, we found out there's
something missing, there is anuance in the dimensions that we

(13:10):
need to have.
So, for instance, to give youan example, there's multiple
ways in intercultural theory tothink about hierarchy.
Okay, so power distance is oneway that people are talking

(13:31):
about it.
But when we, when we try toconsolidate hierarchical
thinking versus non-hierarchicalthinking into only one
dimension, we felt it was, itwas not, uh, fine-tuned enough.
Only one dimension, we felt itwas, it was not fine tuned
enough Because hierarchy can bea complex thing to understand
and how it works and how itfunctions in an organization.

(13:52):
So, so we said, okay, well,let's break it apart.
So we actually ended up withthree different dimensions that
deal with hierarchy in some wayor another, and I think that was
really helpful for people tohave.
Instead of only being able totalk about power distance, they
could now talk about things likedirected versus directive

(14:16):
destiny, where it's like youknow, am I controlling my
destiny?
Am I allowed to be in charge ofthat and forge that, or is my
boss or the organization incharge of that?
Who is allowed to be part ofthe conversation is also part of
power distance.
So am I just telling everybodyyeah, just join, let's talk?

(14:40):
Or in terms of sharing ofinformation.
So that's another part of powerdistance, and the third part
has to do with with status.
So how do you become somebodyof significance in that
organization?
Is it because of hard work andmerit, and then you get rewarded
?
Or is it because of otherreasons?
It could be your upbringing ina particular family or a

(15:04):
particular tribe, or youraffiliation to an organization
that has nothing to do with thecompany you work for, or your
level of degree or your numberof years of service.
How you become somebody ofsignificance, who is allowed to
be part of the conversation andwho is not, and who controls my

(15:28):
destiny?
Those three combined are alltalking about power distance in
some way or another, but havingthe three of them, the
conversation a lot richer andmore fine-tuned and
three-dimensional, so to speak.
Yes, yeah, but it is hard towrap your head around 12

(15:50):
dimensions initially, but we are.
Once people get it and theystart to apply it, I've never
had people come back.
I still wish there were lessthan 12 no, never say yeah, if
we, yeah, if we cut this one out, yeah yeah, then you't talk
about, for instance, how we seethe future, then we can't talk

(16:10):
about how decisions are made andhow exceptions might be created
or never be created.
So yeah, people always comeback to 12.

12 is a nice round number.
It does, yes, of the 21,.
We're glad you narrowed it downto 12.
12 is a nice round number.
It does, yes, of the 21, wewe're glad you narrowed it down
to 12.
So I think I love, I reallyenjoy them all and and and
actually, can you just give us abrief description?
How are they structured?
So you know, on on the culturalmapping inventory, how is it

(16:41):
structured and what is apolarity?
Can you go through that?

yes, yeah, that's really important.
So, um, each polarity has aname and, uh, you will find
links to uh sort of uh, some, uh, some online materials that
visualize it, so you can, youcan reference it in that way.
But, um, we talk aboutpolarities because they are

(17:07):
opposites, and I've alreadymentioned a few now.
So, uh, for instance, when youthink about, um, an opposite,
like one of the ones we is to dowith, how people make decisions
, so there's a name for eachpolarity and in this, this case,
it would be decision making.
How do people handle decisionmaking?

(17:30):
And the one side of the polarityhas to do with rules.
So I make decisions based onthe policy, the procedure, the
contract, the rules of the land,and those are the.
That's the only thing thatguides me.
Or I make decisions based onthe relationship, the person or
persons involved in the process,and those are then two

(17:53):
opposites.
So extreme, so to speak,relationship-based
decision-making would look who'sinvolved in the conversation
and how does that shape the waywe're gonna make decisions.
The rules might apply, or wemight make exceptions to the
rules because the relationshipis more important.

(18:13):
The other side of the polarity,then, would be the other extreme
is that exclusively makingdecisions based on the rules,
the contract, the policy, thelaw of the land, and that is
that's why we call thempolarities.
So a polarity is technically acontinua, so you're never only

(18:34):
on the left or only on the right.
You could be on multiplepreference points.
Actually, in our tool there areseven preference points, so you
could be strong on the left,strong on the right,
intermediate left right, mildleft right and in the middle.
So in total there are sevendifferent points.
So every dimension has a nameand it has words to describe the

(18:58):
opposites.

Okay, ah, that's helpful, okay.
So what I'd love to do rightnow is I'd love to walk through
all 12.
And I'd love for you to give ashort example of how each
dimension plays out in real life.
So you've done that a littlebit with some of them, but could
we methodically go through each12 with examples?

All right, let's do it, let's do it do it
great all right, I'll follow theorder that people would find in
the report or in the onlinepublic doc articles that we've
written about the tool soperfect.
The first one in the tool iscalled growth and that has to do
with how you allocate resourceswhen you think about growth.

(19:45):
So what is good growth in ourorganization or on our team?
Is good growth mainly focusedon investing in my people and
making sure that my people areskilled, that they have good
relationships, that they thatthey have fun together, etc.
Or is growth mainly achievedthrough good structure, good

(20:10):
systems, great offers, flow, forinstance, all kinds of things
related to technology andcomputer systems, etc.
And the growth dimension oftenplays out in in budget

(20:30):
discussions.
Yes, okay, you will see very,very quickly how people oriented
people are when they thinkabout growth, or how what we
call material or systemsoriented people are when it
comes to growth in terms of howthey fight for budget, what are
they fighting for and why isthat important for them?

(20:51):
So, uh, yeah, that's the firstone, and um, it's not only in in
how budget is allocated.
If I give you an example um, inthe world of technology, um, one
of the biggest challenges insome parts of the world has to
do with user adoption.

(21:13):
So in other words, you put bigmoney into a new it system and
then you hit play, so to speak.
It goes, but are people trulygoing to embrace the new system
and use it on a day to day basis?
And some cultures say well,we've invested in this very
expensive IT infrastructure, soobviously people are going to

(21:35):
jump on it and they're going touse it.
But then from a cultural pointof view, if you don't invest
both on the material side ofgrowth as well as the personal,
the people side of growth, thenI've seen systems like that just
become dinosaurs because peopledid not create user adoption

(21:56):
processes that were needed inthat cultural context that's a
great example.

Okay, that is very helpful.
So that's the first one growthnext one.

The next one has to do with relationships.
How do I view relationships?
And we talk about, on the onehand, universal relationships,
the other hand, situational.
So if somebody is moresituational in the way they view
relationships, it's work.
Relationships are work.
And when I close the door orwhen I close my computer and

(22:33):
finish work, I have otherrelationships.
So I have friends and family.
I have yet other relationshipsrelated to hobbies, sports or
recreation, relationshipsrelated to hobbies, sports or
recreation.
I might have otherrelationships related to
spirituality and my life offaith, etc.
Etc.
So situational relationship,it's sliced, the world is sliced

(22:56):
in segments of.
If you are more Universal,though, then what that means is
I meet you at work, and I mightbe a little bit slow in
connecting, because I want totake this connection beyond work
.
I want to be your friend, Iwant to hang out with you.
I want to probably we'll hangout if we have families we might

(23:20):
hang out as families beyondwork, and that universal way of
thinking about relationships ismuch more encompassing, and it
spills over from one sphere ofyour life to the next, to the
next to the next.

Yes.

And that's a very interesting one, because
certain cultures are very strongin saying no work is work you
yes connect with colleagues andyou don't even have to like your
colleagues.
You don't have to be friendswith your colleagues, have one

(23:59):
or two friends at work, butyou're there to do work.
So you're there to accomplish atask, um, on the universal side
of relationship, that thatwouldn't happen.
I I had a friend who said I.
I asked him to describe workand he said to me well, I go to
work to be with my friends, butwe also accomplish amazing

(24:24):
things, wow.

That's a.
That's a a classical.

That's a classic example of a universal
way of looking at relationships.

Yeah, yeah, that's a distinct difference.
I can see that.
I can see why that dimension isneeded.
That's good, good clarity.
Um, what about the next one,which is outlook?

Yeah, so with Outlook we are looking into
the future.
So both sides of the polaritylook into the future, but what
they consider important is whatdetermines if people are on the
left or the right of thisdimension.
So the left word we use iscalled a tradition-oriented

(25:12):
outlook versus ainnovation-oriented outlook so
somebody who has atradition-oriented outlook and
is looking into the future willtake the a large chunk of the
past into consideration, andwhen I say a large chunk, it
could be a hundred years,depending on the topic it could
be.

(25:32):
It could be generations ofhistory of tradition that needs
to either be protected ornurtured or respected, even if
you take a slightly differentdirection.
But all of that is consideredas we make decisions about the
future.
So, respecting those who'vegone before us, respecting

(25:52):
tradition that has beenestablished, that is still
valuable, even to the pointwhere sometimes the tradition
stays, even if it's debatable,if it's valuable which is, by
the way, a tradition-orientedoutlook person might not even
think that wayInnovation-oriented outlook.

(26:14):
The other side of the equationis very much focused on today or
maybe not even today, justtomorrow what we can do in the
future together In the future.
So yeah, so if somebody likethat presents their ideas to you
, they will not consider thepast.

(26:35):
They might not even think abouttoday.
They might purely say I've beendoing some thinking, and what
if, two years from now, we could?
And that's when they start topotentially sell you on a new
idea that they have.
And culturally, both areequally important, especially if

(27:01):
you have a multicultural teamor if you have an organization
that spans across multiplegeographies.
You typically end up being incultures and have talent from
cultures that are both traditionoriented and innovation
oriented in their outlook, andhave talent from cultures that
are both tradition-oriented andinnovation-oriented in their
outlook, and that's why that'strue.

With all of these dimensions, learning to
navigate them in aninterculturally agile ways is
super important and just at ourinternational Summit I watched
you sort of walk a marriedcouple, a new married couple,
through this dimension and howit impacted their marriage and

(27:39):
the way they interacted together.
The wife was traditional,traditional on the polarity, she
was more tradition and thehusband was more innovation.
Can you just quickly summarizesort of that, how that played
out?
It's so personal it was.
It was fascinating.

It was, uh, yeah, it was a beautiful
conversation, um, and atcoaching into that dimension was
really precious for them and Ilearned a lot from oh, but it
basically meant that, um, thehusband, me being more
innovation oriented in theiroutlook, uh, they were willing.
He was willing to just not justtry a lot more new things, he

(28:21):
was assuming that the next timewe have to do it different yes
uh, because that's fun, that'sfun that that is uh, you know,
exciting yeah she was sayingexactly the opposite.
She was saying well, the nexttime we do something, if we have
already done it before, thebest thing we can do is to do it

(28:43):
the same way and improve on it.
And for her that was fun andenergizing.

Yes.
So both set on the opposite sideof the polarity, but what they
called fun, or what theyconsidered energizing, was
draining for the other party andso it was a beautiful,
beautiful conversation toexplore that and how they could
create culture together justaround that one dimension yes,

(29:11):
and it was a way for them totalk about it in a way that they
possibly couldn't have sort ofexplored it before giving them
language to talk about this verysignificant difference between
the two of them yeah, and youraise a good point, because
that's one thing that this tooldoes really well it gives you a

(29:31):
neutral language and it givesyou words to articulate
something like you say that issometimes really hard to put
your finger on yeah, so yeah andI.

we saw that in in that particular example
that having the language, havinga neutral language that is not
condemning or criticizing, itjust is.
Just is Keeps the conversation.
Yeah, it just keeps theconversation going and it it
allowed them to explore.
Okay, how do we now moveforward together?

(30:04):
How do we create our owncultural space in this?

marriage relationship and the marriage
yes, and one way is not betterthan the other.
And that discussion was clear.
Yeah, it was.
Yeah, it's just super importantwith the dimensions.

There isn't a better place to be.
So it just is.
If you show up at a certainpreference point on any of these
12, it just is yes I'm learningto embrace that and learning to
say, okay, this is where I am,this is where you are.
How can we find each other?
Or how do I need to learn tostretch away from, maybe from my

(30:45):
preference point of what mightthat look like?
And a lot of the report is isdedicated to stretching.

Learning to build bridges, cultural bridges
yes, and you could see, withthis married couple, they wanted
to stretch.
They wanted to stretch intotheir spouse's polarity to help
build the relationship.
It was beautiful.

Yeah, it was great love is the greatest
equator very true, they werevery newly married.

It was.
It was beautiful to watch.
The next dimension is the one Ifind so fascinating.
It's my favorite, to be honest,and it's destiny.
So can you explain thedimension of destiny?

Yeah, so destiny has two words on the
polarity.
So when it's called directeddestiny and that has to do with
typically other people orexternal factors being in
control of my destiny and thedirective side, which is the
other side, is where I takecharge or I assume I can take

(31:49):
charge of my future, of mydirection, which also typically
means that people who aredirective destiny oriented, they
want to vocalize their opinion,they want to be part of
decision making, and they theytypically might get frustrated
or upset if they're not invitedto be part of the conversation.

(32:11):
Directed destiny environmentspeople are much more focused on
doing a great job, doing what isrequired, and they expect that
those instructions, thosedetails, will come from their
supervisor, from their boss, andthe interesting thing is, both

(32:36):
directed and directive destinyenvironments can be incredibly
productive.
What I have found, though, isthat directive destiny people
believe that if I choose mydirection, I think it through, I
wrestle with it and I land onthe direction I want to go.

(33:00):
They think that because of that, they have more longevity and
resilience and they will producebetter results.
And what the research actuallyshows is that directed destiny
environments can be equallyproductive and sometimes even
have more resilience and notmore longevity produce higher

(33:24):
performance results and the keythere is the trust between the
person who receives theinstruction and the person who
gives the instruction.
If there is a high level oftrust between them, then
directed destiny can outperform,for instance, directive destiny
oh, that's so fascinating.

Oh, my goodness, do you have an example
, like an example of how itplays out sort of in real life,
anything recently that you'veseen?

yeah, there's so many, there's so many
examples.
So, for instance, um, we workedwith a client where, uh, they
were revamping globally, theywere revamping their employee
development program and thisdimension was at the center of a
challenge that they faced.
So the the employee developmentprogram, sort of, was designed

(34:16):
by very directive,destiny-oriented people and they
made the assumption if, when itcomes to your personal
development, you have to do yourown thinking, you have to come
up with ideas, plan it yourself.

(34:36):
Plan it yourself.
You have to go to your managerthe word proactive was used a
lot and you go and say boss,this is what I want to do with
the rest of this year.
I know there is budgetavailable for my development.
I would like it to be investedin the following way um, what
they didn't realize is that alot of the world's population,

(34:57):
including the people working intheir company, they, don't
operate that way.
The rest of you know there's alarge percentage of the world
population who is much moredirected destiny oriented.
So I defer to my boss when itcomes to my career, my
development as a professional,and I respect the the fact that

(35:17):
my boss has been in the businesslonger in the organization I I
will accept their wise counseland when it comes to the next
steps that I need to take in mycareer and it would be seen as
disrespectful for me to go to myboss if there is more of a

(35:38):
directed destiny culture and sayhere's what I want to do.
I've been doing some thinkingas opposed to typically happen
Destiny you go to your boss andsay I've really enjoyed working
with you, for you and I wouldlove to get your insight and
advice.
You've seen me in this lastyear at work.

(35:59):
What would you recommend me?
What my next step should?
be that's a typical directeddestiny way of dealing with it.
So, in other words, they rolledout this global initiative,
assuming everybody in the worldwas destiny-oriented and then we
had to make lots of tweaks andfortunately it was flagged

(36:19):
relatively early and there wasenough breathing space in the
way they rolled it out to makethe tweaks to be more respectful
of cultural contexts that weremore directed, destiny-oriented,
directed, destiny oriented.
And also a great examplelearning to appreciate that is

(36:40):
not a lesser way of ofconnecting with uh, between a uh
, a subordinate and and a leader, for instance it is just
another way it's just anotherway.

Yes, oh, that's so important to recognize
and structure things aroundboth polarities.
Yeah, I love that.
I love that one.
I've seen that play out in manydifferent ways.
What about context?
The next dimension?

Yeah, context is all about sort of the
rules of the environment, socontext is um to do.
The most common thing thatpeople talk about is dress code
but, there's so much more to it.
So it's either more informalversus formal.
Those are the two polaritywords, and in an informal

(37:29):
environment, the, the number ofrules is, is a lot less than in
a more formal environment.
And yeah, people always pointto dress code.
But it also has to do with whosits where at a meeting.
How do you address people?
Do you use titles or not?

(37:49):
Who can speak and who cannotspeak?
Is there an order in terms ofwho speaks first, who speaks
second?
How much formality orinformality is there around the
way, for instance, delegationsare structured?
How do you structure a clientengagement?

(38:12):
Is there more formality or morean informal approach to it?
So there's a lot of potentialthings Anything to do with.
Are there written or unwrittenways to engage in this situation
?
And obviously those are.
You know, if you come from anenvironment where there's very

(38:34):
few rules and everything justflows whichever way you want to
take it, and then you step intoan environment where there's a
lot more formality in thecontext, just at face value you
would already be rejected.
I saw this.

Yes, so true so.

So dress code is a classical one.
Um, you know, um the theexpectations when it comes to
dress code from a gender pointof view, that's a real challenge
to think about.
For, for instance, I won'tmention names, but there is one

(39:18):
country that I know of wherewearing a tie is actually almost
offensive.
I discovered that while I wastraveling in and out and
somebody was was kind enough totell me why a tie was seen as

(39:40):
offensive, and gladly I left mytie at home.
But just a tiny thing like thatcan already discredit you
before you've even said a word.

Yes, so true, and I've seen this play out too
generationally.
Yeah, you know, like I justread an article that gen z's the
most recent grudge uh, sorry,generation.
They're getting fired fromtheir jobs.
Um, and I think this, thisdimension, might play a piece in

(40:12):
that.
There they're highly informaland their job so that they're
walking into are more formal andthey're missing the social cues
.
So is that another example?

Yes, absolutely, and it's a whole
bigger subject there.
But the way it's sort of linkeddress code is also linked to
how we view accountability,which is one of the ones lower
down the list individualaccountability, combined with

(40:46):
being informal versus formal.
So what then happens is peoplethink that dress code is
exclusively an expression ofyour own identity because, I'm
individually held accountable.
I'm more informal, so I dressto express myself in a community

(41:08):
accountability culture.
You dress to represent thecommunity and there might be
self-expression.
Yeah you, there'sself-expression in there, but
it's you're always thinkingabout the community you
represent.
So if you then walk into withthat into an informal

(41:31):
environment but it's verydifferent than if you say I am
dressing to express myindividuality and if you walk
with that into a formalenvironment it's much more
likely that you get into trouble.
Yes, your article about.

(41:51):
You know people getting firedbecause they miss the social
cues.
Very often it has to do withthat community versus individual
accountability.

Ah, it's so fascinating and I love how these
dimensions speak into theseissues that are occurring right
now, every day.
And let's talk about connecting.

That's the next one yeah, I already
mentioned connecting as anexample of sort of three
dimensions that allude to thisidea of power distance hierarchy
.
So connecting is all about whois allowed to be part of the
conversation, who is allowed tohave access to the information.
And you know, in a classicalexclusive connecting

(42:37):
organization or situation itwould be highly confidential,
there might be security at stakeor high threat.
But in an inclusive connectingorganization it's pretty much
information flow, flows freely,people are allowed to be part of

(42:58):
conversations, a way that yousee that, for instance, if
people are in person in anoffice and there's a small group
of people are having aconversation, somebody walks up,
they just the circle justwidens and that person is
included.
That's typical, you know vibeof an inclusive organization.

(43:20):
While in an exclusiveorganization I've seen this
where people walk up to a groupthey know that they're having a
conversation that is onlyallowed to be had by those three
or four people.
And a typical behavior of anexclusive connecting person is
they would literally wait at twoto three meters distance,

(43:43):
uh-huh.

I've seen this , yeah distance.

Uh huh, I've seen this, yeah, Somebody
acknowledges them.
They pause the conversation andthey they would say something
like hey, good to see you, Uh,uh, can I help you?
Or hey please join us or we'rejust finishing up the
conversation.
You're welcome to join usafterwards, and that's a typical
exclusive way of thinking aboutconnecting and obviously that

(44:09):
back that can clash when youhave both those approaches in
the same organization wheresomebody says why did you send
that file to my colleague?
he's not supposed to have accessto that stuff.
And then the inclusive personsays, yeah, but I thought he
would.
It would be beneficial for himto understand the context better
.

Yeah, but he's not supposed to see that
material, you know so yes, theclash yeah, the connecting
dimension and I think it'simportant to just remind
everyone we're halfway throughthis.
The 12 is that where do youfall?
How?
How do you connect?
Are you an inclusive or anexclusive connector?
I mean, it's important, it's animportant piece to understand

(44:52):
about yourself.
As I took the assessment andsaw where I fell, I was like,
yes, of course I see myself, butit was still so revealing, at
the same time, so important toknow where we are on these
dimensions personally.
So, on that, let's talk aboutexpression, because this is a

(45:13):
big one, yes, this is an obviousone another example.

Well, it's also, uh, one of those
dimensions where we we createdum more dimensions than in the
original research.
So the idea that connectinginclusive versus exclusive was
one thing, but we also foundthat emotional expression and

(45:40):
how people think about emotionalexpression had to be a separate
dimension, and so that's how wesplit them out.
So connecting is really aboutinformation and who's allowed to
be part of the conversation.
Expression is how I need tonavigate my emotions.
Can I just freely express themwe call that revealing or do I

(46:02):
need to conceal my emotions,because that's what the context
requires?
That's what people think ismore professional or more more
leadership oriented.
So, yeah, how I navigateemotion can I freely just let
them flow, or do I need to beregal and contained?

and emotions are are a tool, but they are not
easily read on the outside yes,that's a good one, and I'm sure
you're thinking of lots ofexamples, but we, we already did
sort of to talk about decisionmaking.
You, you did mention that.
Can you just quickly go overthat one?

yeah, yeah.
So, uh, the two words on theleft and right,
relationship-based decisionmaking versus rules based making
and, uh, either the person whoI'm working with determines how
we navigate the rules.
That means the rules are eitherbeneficial for our relationship

(47:10):
and for our project or they'renot.
If they're beneficial, happilyfollow them.
If they're not as beneficial,we might tweak them, pretend
they don't exist, make anexception and, of course, on the
other side, the rules-baseddecision-making is no, it
happens to be that you and I arehaving this conversation, but,

(47:31):
hey, the rules will always be.

So that's what we do.

Even if we don't like it too much, it
doesn't sit so well, but therules will outlive us.
So we follow the rules us, sowe follow the rules.
And obviously, when you getinto intercultural teams, when
you get into client engagement,you know why can't you make that
exception?
Or yeah, I know the contractsays that, but, yeah, can we do

(48:00):
something about it?
And there's so manyconversations and even, shelly,
you're an educator, even in theclassroom this happens.
Where, know parents?
come up to teachers and say youknow, we would like to talk to
you about the grades of ourchild and what they really mean
is could you make some tweaks?

Yes.

And make it look good.
Yes, so yeah, this dimensionshows up in so many ways.
Yes, I see it.
Yes, and make it look good.
Yes, so yeah, this dimensionshows up in so many ways.

Yes, I see it.
Yes, as does the next one invery practical, day-to-day ways
planning.
So can you tell us aboutplanning?

Yeah, planning.
Here is another interestingthing.
So when we looked at the, theresearch around similar
constructs, um, we felt that,for instance, there is a
dimension talking about taskversus people oriented, and
initially we thought, oh, we'lljust call embrace that one.

(49:06):
But then then we went furtherinto it and we talked with a lot
of people from different partsof the world and they said, well
, you know, you can bepeople-oriented but very focused
on the task.
You're really pursuing one taskafter the next task.
So we felt, okay, people versustask is not necessarily, you

(49:27):
know, putting the right languageinto this equation.
So we said, okay, what's at thecenter?
It's how I think about planning.

How much?

do I plan?
Thinking about time is money,time is precious and I need to
fill my time in the bestpossible way.
So that's why time is on theside of the equation and I need
to fill my time in the bestpossible way, so that's why time
is on the side of the equation.
So time-oriented planners theywork.
The calendar and it's tightlymanaged and it goes.

(49:59):
You know there might be breaks,but I've heard many
time-oriented planners they say,yeah, I really struggle to put
15-minute gaps between mymeetings.
I have way too manyback-to-backs and which is after
covid even got worse peopleoriented planners they still
plan but you look at theircalendar and they might not be
that much on the calendar butthey are really good at timing

(50:25):
the exact right moment toconnect with somebody yes
they're very intentional andthey know how to navigate the
relational fabric.
They know how to show up at theright time, use the opportunity.
They also know how to read thesituation.
Say, today I'm not going to askyou that question, uh, because,

(50:46):
um, you're not in the rightmood.

I'll come back to this later.

So it's much more fluid and it's much more
reading the situation oriented,grabbing the opportunity.
And the interesting thing is,you know, super time oriented
planners versus super-orientedplanners can be equally
effective and sometimes thepeople-oriented planners get

(51:12):
more done.
The other thing that we noticedthe more intercultural the
environment is, the more youneed to learn to stretch across
this dimension.
Yes, because you will havecertain Conflicts, pound the
terms just don't happen, stuffhappens.

(51:33):
Throws your whole calendar out.
Sometimes you just need to grabthe opportunity.
You see somebody you say I needto talk right now and this is
the right time to do it.
So people who, who areinterculturally agile, they I've
seen this they really learn tostretch across this dimension
very effectively.

That's good, marco.
Yes, this, that's an importantone.
Again, you can see that verypractically play out when you
move somewhere new.
You can see this very quickly.
This what about communication?
So communication, this isanother.
I love this one.
It's fascinating.

In in our teamwork, when we build high
performing intercultural teams,this always comes up.
This is always an issue.
So communication is either theone side of the polarities
direct communication.
The other side is indirect, andboth are equally important and

(52:39):
both are equally valuable as aform of communication.
But what I hear way too oftenis that direct communicators say
well, you're just beatingaround the bush, why can't you,
why didn't you say that in thefirst place?
Or call a spade a spade orthings like that.

(52:59):
And then indirect communicatorsthey say well, you don't care
about relationship or why?
Why can't you read in betweenthe lines?
Your, your ability tocommunicate is so
unsophisticated.
Um yeah, so uh fascinating whenyou listen to direct versus
indirect communicators.

(53:20):
They're both defending thattheir style is better or that
their way of doing things isbetter, and actually both are
needed in interculturalenvironments.
And all I can say is if you aremore an indirect communicator,
learn to be more direct.
If you're a direct communicator, learn the art of indirect
communication, because you needboth to be successful in an

(53:44):
intercultural environment.

And one way I've done that is I speak to my
indirect communicator friendsand I ask them about what it was
like growing up in their homes.
How were things communicated?
It is so fascinating to listento the messages they received
indirectly from their parents.
I'd be like, wow, I would havemissed that entirely, didn't

(54:06):
know how you pick that up.
Yeah, it's, it's really good toask to.

You know what's interesting is?
I work a lot with leaders andthe art of storytelling has
become really important forleaders and a lot of people say,
yeah, I don't know how to dothat really well, but the art of
storytelling is really muchmore on the indirect side.
Yes, it's like telling a storythat could be almost a parable,

(54:37):
like a corporate parable or anorganizational parable that
illustrates a value that thebusiness or organization
believes in, or illustrates asignificant moment in the past,
etc.
So the art of storytelling forleaders, it sort of shows that
indirect communication isnecessary to really create

(54:58):
healthy culture, to celebratethe organization, to celebrate
our values, reinforce them etc.

Yes, yes, and accountability is a big part of
that as well, and we sort oftalked about this earlier.
But can you just refresh us?

Marco Blankenbur (55:13):
accountability , one of the two polarities
again again, this is a dimensionwhich, if you're familiar with
polarities in the interculturalspace, uh, hofstetter and hall
came up with collectivism versusindividualism this sort of
alludes to that, but we againfelt that, in the world that we

(55:37):
live in today, we needed to toarticulate it in a different way
, and, and the more we spokewith people from different parts
of the world, the more werealize what's at the center of
this.
It's not individualism as weunderstand it today.
It's who I am accountable to soam I accountable to myself for

(55:59):
my growth, my development, myopinion, my direction in life,
or am I truly accountable to myfamily, my tribe, the team, the
department, the sports club Ibelong to?
Is there a sense of no matterwhere I go, I always represent

(56:20):
that community, I alwaysrepresent my family, I always
represent our country, and sothe word accountability we put
that at the center, which wehave now.
You know, we've worked withthis in over 70 countries around
the world and it really makesthis come alive in a different
way and obviously this hasbecome a huge one.

(56:45):
Even you mentioned generationaldifferences.
So we, the younger generation,there is a desire for I call it
a tribe to belong to and apurpose to pursue.
So belonging at work has becomemore and more important and it's
like a global trend, no matterwhere people culturally come

(57:07):
from, and that alludes to thethe community accountability
side of things.
People don't just go to work,to work, do a job, get paid and
walk away.
There is a much more of adesire to to have community at
work.
So that's that's a trend thatwe find when we do teamwork, for
instance.

(57:27):
We talk a lot about okay, yes,holding people individually
accountable is important.
Giving people a voice isimportant, allowing people to
self-express and self-develop,but what's equally important is
creating that tribe, creatingthat sense of belonging, that
sense of belonging, that senseof community and, uh,

(57:48):
celebrating the group,celebrating the team, but also
holding the whole teamaccountable, both for the.
You know.
Celebrate your successes, butbe accountable for your failures
as well.
So, this dimension has becomereally important in culture
creation.

Oh, it's so good.
I yes so much.
We could just talk about thisfor much longer, but let's hit
number 12, which is status.
Can you tell us about status?

status is all about how you become I.
I alluded to it earlier on.
Uh, so either the one side ofthe polarity is achieved status
and the other side is ascribedstatus.
So achieved is really you workhard for it, you get noticed,
you get rewarded and you getgiven that promotion or you get

(58:38):
given that position or thataccolade.
So that's the achieved side ofstatus.
The ascribed side of status istypically it can be within the
family, tribal system of yourplace you grew up in.
So it can even be linked tocaste, so certain countries who

(59:06):
have a caste system where thereis certain predefined things you
can and cannot do withinsociety.
But it can also be to do withyour level of degree.
It can be to do with years ofservice in the organization.
It can also be that certaintypes of degrees are appreciated

(59:30):
more than other types ofdegrees in certain organizations
.
So if you're working in aconstruction company, an
engineering degree is highlyrespected.
If it's more of an ascribedstatus environment, for instance
.
Now the interest this dimensionhas.
There's so many things to sayabout this.
One of the places where thisdimension really shows up is in

(59:55):
things like localization of theworkforce or affirmative action,
and there's huge issues aroundthe world where people say, well
, we want to make sure thatpeople who previously didn't
have the opportunity they nowget the opportunity.
So then you have quotas andsystems of quotas where people

(01:00:19):
get ascribed, they get theopportunity to step into a role,
especially if they werepreviously disadvantaged, but
then they forget to put amechanism in place so that they
can also achieve it.
So they get given the status.
So I now have a seat at theuniversity.

(01:00:40):
I never thought that one of ourfamily members would get the
opportunity to go, but then themechanism is not in place to
then also turn that intoachievement turn that into merit
, and we've seen this in inplaces like south africa with
affirmative action, where meritwas thrown out to some extent

(01:01:02):
and where belonging to aspecific group gave you the
access ticket.
So no matter if you firstachieve and then you get given
the ascribed status because younow have been awarded with the
accolades or the promotion oryou're now the leader of the

(01:01:22):
organization, then you getascribed.
You could come from the otherside where you first get given
the opportunity to be, but thenyou as a person have to say I
get given this opportunity.
I need to now prove that I'mworthy of it, so I need to also

(01:01:45):
achieve now in.
In many tribes around the worldthose mechanisms still exist.
You get ascribed first and thenyou earn it, or you get, you
earn it to some extent.
You get ascribed and then youneed to live up to it.
But in many corporates thosemechanisms don't exist anymore.

(01:02:06):
So every time when affirmativeaction is used or localization
of the workforce we have a lotof that here in the Gulf region
Learning to apply both ascribedmechanisms and achieved
mechanisms in culturallyappropriate ways is very hard,
but incredibly important.

Shelley Reinhart (01:02:28):
So good.
Well, we've made it through all12 dimensions and I think we
have a good sense of what eachof them entail, how they're
structured, some examples aroundthem.
Thank you, marco.
This is very helpful, and thisis only part one.

(01:02:49):
We're gonna do a part two aswell, where we're going to talk
about how the twelve dimensionsare connected to the three
colors of worldview and then howwe can use the twelve
dimensions in practical ways inour marriages, our friendships,
our work and our clientrelationships.
So that that's what's coming.
So this just lays thefoundation and the groundwork

(01:03:10):
for reflection, and I hope youall get a chance to take the
cultural mapping inventory.
You can find all that you needto know in the links provided.
And, marco, anything else toadd before we close?

Marco Blankenburgh (01:03:26):
I can't wait to get into that second episode
, because that's where it reallycomes, alive yeah yes and
especially making the connectionwith the, the three colors of
worldview yes the differentlenses on on who you are as a
cultural human being.
There's a lot of bridgesbetween these two tools that
really illuminate and the superpractical when it comes to

(01:03:49):
bridge building, strengtheningrelationships, answering the why
of difficult interculturaldilemmas that you might face.
So, yeah, I'm looking forwardto part two.

Me too, me as well.
Thank you so much, Marco.
Thanks for all of you who arelistening today.
We're so grateful you're herewith us and we'll see you or
listen to you during the secondsecond part two thanks, marco
bye, I might need to redo thatending.

(01:04:27):
I need to redo that ending, butthat's okay.
He can cut it off sooner, yeah.

Marco Blankenburgh (01:04:37):
Yeah, okay, I think he can, yeah, yeah.

He'll just cut it off, yeah.

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