September 16, 2024 • 55 mins
Discover the secrets to applying cultural agility successfully on teams with our esteemed guest, Linda Berlot, whose 20 years of living in Dubai and working across various countries have uniquely positioned her to identify and bridge cultural differences. Linda's rich tapestry of experiences reveals how intercultural agility can transform team miscommunication into curiosity and mutual understanding, ultimately enhancing collaboration and effectiveness.
Navigate the complexities of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging in a global context with us. We contrast problem-centric and relationship-centric cultural approaches, shedding light on the challenges and strategies for fostering healthy organizational cultures. Embrace a cultural learner mindset with insights into balancing direct and indirect communication styles, and discover the significance of creating a "third cultural space" for collaborative delivery.
Learn how to apply a "think local, act global" approach and avoid the pitfalls of imposing solutions across different cultural contexts. With rapid technological changes, we underscore the irreplaceable value of human skills like empathy, creativity, and relationship-building. Equip yourself and your team to navigate change effectively while fostering a culture of curiosity and mutual respect.
| In this episode, you will learn:
-- The art of cultural agility and its impact on team dynamics and collaboration.
-- Practical tools offer a roadmap for navigating the complexities of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging in a global context.
-- How teams can unlock their full potential and create a more inclusive and effective working environment.
| Learn More about:
-- How to Have Better Conversations (http://kwx.fyi/better-conversations)
-- Creating the “Multiplier Effect” on Your Team (http://kwx.fyi/multiplier-effect)
-- Looking for a book to take your cultural agility to the next step, check out the Ultimate Intercultural Question Book brought to you by KnowledgeWorkx.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Linda Berlot (00:00):
The analogy that I love using is that of a puzzle.
Right, we would never expect apuzzle for all the pieces to be
the same.
It wouldn't create a picture.
So if we can accept that puzzlepieces, we want them to all
look different.
Right, but all are needed bythe puzzle to create the
beautiful picture that thepuzzle creates.
(00:22):
And it's the same withdiversity.
Each one of us is.
The team is richer for thediversity that we each bring to
the table.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:41):
Welcome to the Cultural Agility Podcast,
where we explore the stories ofsome of the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world to help you
become culturally agile andsucceed in today's culturally
complex world.
I'm your host, MarcoBlankenberg, International
Director of KnowledgeWorks,where every day we help
(01:01):
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world.
Welcome again to anotherepisode of Unlocking Cultural
Agility, and I'm so happy thatLinda Berlotte is back with us
again.
Actually, the very, very firstpodcast we recorded was us
(01:23):
together.
Linda Berlot (01:24):
That's right, that's how we started.
Marco Blankenburgh (01:27):
So thank you for making the time, and it's
always great to hear all thethings that you're involved with
, but also I always have lovedsharing our perspectives.
We have come a long waytogether, but for our listeners
it would be really good if youcan just do a brief introduction
who is Linda Berlotte?
And we'll dive straight intothe subject.
(01:48):
For today, Absolutely, marco.
Linda Berlot (01:50):
Thank you for inviting me back onto your
podcast.
We had so much fun last timetalking about both relationships
teams as well as interculturalagility.
Both of these topics are closeto our heart, I know, so I'm
thrilled to be here with youagain.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:04):
So tell me a little bit more about Linda.
Linda Berlot (02:08):
How long do you have?
So I am Italian.
I have been living here in theMiddle East, in Dubai
specifically, for the last 20years.
I came here for two.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:22):
Heard that before Right.
Linda Berlot (02:24):
It's now my home.
I am passionate about many,many things food, music, dancing
but, more importantly, I lovewhat we do.
I am absolutely passionateabout working with teams and,
more specifically, multiculturalteams, to help bring more
connection and more peace tothese teams, despite the
(02:47):
diversity that lives betweenthem.
Now, we all know diversity is agift and very often in a
multicultural team, this cancreate a lot of challenges, and
I love working with these teamsto help them find a different
way forward.
Marco Blankenburgh (03:01):
You said you're based in Dubai, but you
don't just work in Dubai.
Tell us a little bit more.
Where does your work take you?
Linda Berlot (03:09):
That's right.
My work takes me across theglobe, really, from Mexico to
Thailand and everything inbetween.
Wow.
Marco Blankenburgh (03:17):
Wow, it's an exciting but sometimes maybe
also challenging span ofcountries, span of time zones.
Now you already mentionedintercultural agility.
We've had the privilege ofapplying that in our own unique
ways, sometimes working togetheron projects.
But how is interculturalagility making a difference,
(03:40):
maybe even for you as a personto start with, but also how does
it make a difference in thework that you do?
Linda Berlot (03:47):
Marco, for me, cultural issues in groups have
always lit up like string infront of me.
I've always been able to seethat when there is
misunderstanding or people arenot hearing each other or
sometimes miscommunication, thatpartly could be who they are
and also partly could becultural.
(04:08):
So whenever I am traveling Isee these cultural differences
between me and whoever I amsurrounded by.
That happened to me from a veryyoung age, I guess, because we
traveled extensively as a familyand I've lived in so many
different countries that I wasalways able to see that
diversity piece and get verycurious around that.
(04:30):
But so almost it's becomesecond nature for me personally
to become interculturally agile.
But I see how important it isin the world that we live in,
right, where we're a globalizedworld, most teams now are
multicultural and so it's becomevitally important for team
(04:51):
members to really learn to moveaway from me and you to
understanding and being curiousabout that which is most
different, which could be adifferent culture, a different
personality or anything elsereally.
Marco Blankenburgh (05:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Now, today we were hoping totalk a little bit more about
some contentious issues.
Potentially, there's a lot ofthinking about diversity, equity
, inclusion, belonging.
A lot of the original thinkinginitially came out of more the
Western countries and there'sbeen some hiccups around that,
(05:26):
so we're going to takepermission from our audience
today to give maybe a moreglobal perspective on that.
We both are in the trenchespretty much every week in
working with teams, working withleaders, working with
organizations on organizationalculture, etc.
So let's get into it.
When we listen to you know, thisyear is a crazy year when it
(05:49):
comes to elections.
Actually, I just learned thatthis is the year where more
people on the planet vote for anew leader than any time in
history before.
So, unfortunately, what hashappened with the world of
diversity?
In many countries?
Actually, it's become part ofthe political agenda and, I must
(06:11):
say, in some countries it'sactually unfortunate almost
because it politicizes it.
It sometimes even weaponizes it.
What you do with diversity andhow you think about it, While
people like yourself and others,they just want to come
alongside teams, come alongsideleaders and navigate diversity,
(06:31):
tool them up, help them.
So how do we move forward?
Are we facing a situation wherethe core is not the core
anymore.
People start to lose track ofwhy it was invented in the first
place or why it was emphasizedin the first place.
So how do we deal with this?
(06:52):
People try to politicize it.
People try to say, no, this ismy agenda.
And then, in the midst of that,your heart is really to bring
people together to help peoplebe effective together so how do
we stay focused on the core withall this noise?
Daniel Kahneman would call thislots of noise in the system.
We try to stay focused.
(07:14):
How do we do that?
Linda Berlot (07:16):
For me, and I'm sure that you and we all have
different opinions around thisright.
That's why it's so contentious,I guess.
But for me it's important toremember that we are all diverse
and that diversity plays itselfout in not just personality or
gender or the big pieces, butculture is one of those, and no
(07:39):
one culture should drive theagenda for anyone else, because
there are things that areimportant for me which may not
necessarily be important for you, or there may be overriding
important factors that are moreimportant for you, right?
So, for example, race might beimportant for me, but you are
striving to stay alive in awar-torn country, so that's
(08:03):
going to be primary for you.
It would not be right for me topose my agenda on your culture
and in your situation, becauseit's just not relevant and also,
I believe, not quite respectful.
I think respect is something,not just the obvious things of
saying good morning and goodevening and being polite.
Respect is truly accepting thenuances of diversity and not
(08:28):
pushing those to serve my agenda.
Marco Blankenburgh (08:31):
Yeah, I think that's well said being
able to maybe be a little bitmore open-handed as opposed to
you know, here's my agenda, myprescription.
Yeah.
And what I hear you say reallyis what we talk about being
having more of a culturallearner mindset.
Yeah, as opposed to bringing aprescription or bringing a
(08:54):
method to navigate things.
Well, one of the things thatwe've seen in coming up with
solutions to navigate diversity,to create healthy cultures
together.
One of the dilemmas I've seenis that, you know, every method
is always designed through thelens of the method creator,
(09:16):
right?
So culturally around the world,some cultures are very
relationship centric in the waythey look at things and other
cultures are much moreproblem-centric, and very often
problem-centric cultures tend tohave more direct communication
and relationship-centriccultures have a little bit more
indirect communication.
(09:36):
But I've seen this play out inso many methods and approaches
to navigating diversity, equity,inclusion, belonging.
So talk to me about thedifference.
So you have problem-centricways of looking at things to
figure out what's at the center,agree on it and then magically
(09:56):
make it go away, or a morerelationship-centric approach,
which is a different.
Some people say I don't havetime for that, it takes too long
or it's too fluffy, nottangible enough.
So talk to me about thedifference and how you've seen
it play out, the choices you'vemade in your work.
Linda Berlot (10:15):
Thank you for raising that, because I see it
being played out obviously inthe multicultural teams we work
with, but also out in the worldand also in the teams I belong
to, right, where we've gotproblem-centered cultures which
are very for them.
It's very important to put theproblem in the center, to talk
about it, to very clearly definewhat the problem is and, like
(10:38):
you said, they have a verydirect communication approach
and the person with more verbal,more words, more sophisticated
language usually pulls rank onidentifying what the problem is.
On the other side, we have arelationship-centered approach
where it's more important for usto rebuild our relationship
after there's been a problem andto focus on rebuilding trust
(11:02):
and respect and helping eachother feel honored.
In a way, relationship-centeredcultures may never go back to
talk about the problem becausethey're building their
relationships, so they've builttheir relationship past the
issue that there may no longerbe a need to go back and talk
about the problem.
(11:22):
Or, if they've built a lot oftrust and safety, they might at
a later stage, you know, re-lookat it and talk about it in a
very different way.
So you can see how those twodifferent approaches would clash
right.
Marco Blankenburgh (11:37):
Absolutely yes, that's what I'm trying to
reflect on.
Okay, how does that if you havepeople who are saying no, no,
no, no.
We need to get to the bottom ofthis.
You know what's the issue.
Let's talk about what's theissue.
And then another person getshesitant or scared or nervous
and say, well, wait a minute.
I thought it was about you andme.
(12:15):
So yeah, just this last week Iwas talking to somebody I'm
coaching right now and she'svery much from a
relationship-oriented culture,very community,
accountability-oriented, quite abit of honor, shame, and she's
in an organization that is veryright and wrong, innocence,
guilt, very policy driven, andsomething happened that
triggered the policy and one ofthe things she said in the
conversation.
She said I thought we created aspace where my story could be
(12:38):
heard and she said the policydidn't allow me for my story to
be heard.
And now that I'm listening toyou, I thought that's a classic
example of problem-centric thepolicy kicks in, certain rules
apply and she was saying no, Iwant my story to be heard, I
want to have a chance to have aconversation with people,
because relationships areimportant for me.
Linda Berlot (12:58):
Absolutely, and what you find is the more
problem-centric for them.
It's very important that we dothings right, that we follow the
right path and we do thingsright For relationship-centric
cultures.
It's important that we honoreach other, respect each other,
that we don't embarrass eachother or anything like that.
I see that played out in teamsall the time, right when people
(13:23):
well, let's say, a policy kicksin and you can't get it feels
stuck.
If you pick up the phone or getup and walk to the office and,
you know, have a chat and aconversation with the person,
all of a sudden, magically, youget everything resolved because
we've stepped into relationship,we've made each other feel seen
and understood and and, andthen their issue doesn't exist
(13:46):
anymore and, despite there beinga policy, all of a sudden we
can create the solution togetheryeah, yeah, so that that idea
of being willing and allowed tohave a conversation.
Marco Blankenburgh (14:01):
It brings a new perspective.
I think I mentioned this beforeon the podcast, but in Dutch we
have a saying unknown makesunloved.
So if I'm not allowed to talkto you and there is a challenge
between us, I start to create myown perspective of you and it
gets reinforced by people whosupport me and, on the other
(14:23):
side of the equation, getsreinforced by the people who
support the other party, andthen it just widens the gap?
Linda Berlot (14:29):
Absolutely, we make so much.
It's fascinating how we do thatas humans, and there are
reasons, obviously, why we learnto do that.
But we would make an assumptionand have a perception about
what's happening and then, ofcourse, if I'm looking at it
(14:52):
through that lens, everythingthat I see or do confirms my
original belief, but I don't goout and check if that belief is
indeed true or if it's just thestory I'm making up.
And then what ends up happeningis I treat you as if my belief
is correct.
Marco Blankenburgh (15:01):
You just briefly mentioned, you know,
know, seeing two people having achance to chat, having a chance
to hear each other's story, andthen you said, magically, the
problem goes away.
But what actually happens ifyou take a more relationship
centric approach because I knowin your work that's what you do
um, how does how does that shift?
Even if on a multicultural teamyou have lots of diversity in
(15:25):
the room, some people say no, no, no, we first need to talk
about the problem.
If they allow you to take theminto the relational route or the
relational space, how is thatdifferent?
Linda Berlot (15:36):
Yeah, To be honest , all of the work that we do
focuses on the relationship or,in a corporate setting, the team
dynamics between people.
So we're constantly coachingthe team members to shift the
focus away from me and you tothe we and looking at where are
the places that we can align.
So, if a policy is creatingstuckness, what can we both
(15:59):
align around?
What do we both want to achieve?
And so we're not making anybodywrong.
It's not me above you or youabove me, or my way versus your
way.
We're really looking for a waythat is good for the
relationship, that is inclusiveof both of our cultures or both
of our beliefs, and I feel thatbecause of this approach, we
(16:22):
create very close, connectedrelationships, and when team
members feel more closelyconnected, when there is more
positivity, it makes them moreresilient in times of conflict
or in times of change.
So all of our approaches arerelationship-centric.
Marco Blankenburgh (16:39):
And you haven't mentioned it, but you
are very passionate about oneteam coaching methodology I am
let's say a little bit moreabout that it's the osc, team
coaching or coach coachingmethodology.
Linda Berlot (16:52):
It's a systemic coaching methodology.
Osc stands for organization andrelationship systems coaching
and yes, I'm passionate about itbecause not only is it the
model that we use in ourcoaching, but I'm also the local
partner here in the gcc.
So we we run a school to teachpeople to be systemic coaches
(17:14):
such as ourselves, right rightgcc the gulf countries the gulf
countries correct?
Marco Blankenburgh (17:19):
yeah, so you mentioned intercultural agility
is close to your heart.
It's been part of your lifejourney.
You now mentioned ORSC,relational organizational
coaching methodology.
How do the two blend together?
Linda Berlot (17:36):
My belief is that relationship supersedes
everything.
Right, and if we focus on therelationship, we can talk about
the differences between us,because the focus is the
relationship.
We can talk about the diversitypieces without making either
one of us wrong, without makingcreating embarrassment or shame
(17:57):
for anybody.
We can look at the team as awhole or the system as a whole
and look at all the variouspieces that are different, and
we wouldn't want it to be anyother way.
The analogy that I love usingis that of a puzzle.
Right, we would never expect apuzzle for all the pieces to be
the same.
It wouldn't create a picture.
Marco Blankenburgh (18:19):
Yeah, and it would be a nightmare to put
together.
Linda Berlot (18:21):
Imagine that all red, all blue.
So if we can accept that puzzlepieces, we want them to all
look different, right?
If we use that as a metaphorand we imagine that each one of
us is a piece of the puzzle,each one of us has an individual
identity.
So the puzzle pieces mine, I amresponsible for it, I come in a
(18:45):
particular way, but all areneeded by the puzzle to create
the beautiful picture that thepuzzle creates.
And it's the same withdiversity.
Each one of us is the team isricher for the diversity that we
each bring to the table, richerfor the diversity that we each
bring to the table.
And it's up to us to learnskills and tools to talk about
(19:07):
the diversity, in an effort toeducate each other about what's
important for me and what'simportant for you, so that then
we can design, you know,we-centered cultures or
we-centered team dynamics.
Marco Blankenburgh (19:19):
I remember you once talked about the fact
that in team coaching you oftenhave two facilitators.
So how does even already havingtwo facilitators, which could
be diverse in and of itself, howdoes that impact the way you
facilitate team journeys, teamsessions?
Linda Berlot (19:39):
I love that you point towards that, and I
remember when I first started todo this work and we deliver
this work in so many differentcountries around the world my
first lens was, oh, I'm going toanother country, I'm going to
be coaching a group from adifferent culture, and that was
where my focus was, until therestarted to be challenges and
conflict, maybe between me andmy colleagues.
(20:00):
And then I looked to where mycolleague was sitting and I
thought, oh, there's culturaldifferences here between us too.
So it's always present, marco,it's always present, right.
And so what we learned is thatwe call the third cultural space
, which is not my space or yourspace, but it's the space we
(20:24):
designed together.
We call that the third entity.
It's like the we that deliversthe course, and we found that if
we accept that it's the wethat's delivering the course,
then how do you and I want toshow up in service of that we,
so that the we may deliver themost powerful course possible
(20:46):
and role model, the way for theparticipants that we are
educating?
Marco Blankenburgh (20:51):
Yeah, and I always find that people are
really carefully observing youas a facilitator, especially if
there's two of you in front ofthe room.
So if you don't quote, unquote,practice what you preach, then
Absolutely yeah, and people aresmart.
Oh yes.
Linda Berlot (21:10):
People are smart and they see everything and so
if there is a little bit of achallenge, they will feel it and
sense it.
I think the magic of theco-delivery is really carefully
designing and redesigning andcontinuously raising issues of
diversity that emerge so that wemay realign.
(21:31):
So there's that word againalignment.
It's not agreement.
It's very different toagreement.
It's truly finding the placewhere we can align and move
forward from yeah, yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (21:45):
Now, we both have done a lot of reading on
different methods and differentways of doing things.
Um, and we were part ofnetworks, so you're part of the
knowledge works global networkwith people in 55 countries.
You're part of the orsk network, which is growing.
It's spanning the globe.
Now, one thing that that I I'malways amazed by is that some
(22:08):
people think that you can designa solution in one country and
then, uh, you know, franchise itout or ship it out.
You know it's globalannouncements and from now on,
we're going to do things thisway.
And I came across a really cutearticle profound article, but
the title is very cute.
He calls it the elephant on theplane, and he had a really nice
(22:30):
Photoshop picture where he wastrying to stuff an elephant on
the plane to fly to anothercountry, and the symbolism
behind it was you know, we haveall these methods that we design
in one place.
It was you know, we have allthese methods that we design in
one place, and either because weare an authoritative voice or
because we have the power in theorganization, because we're
(22:51):
either a center of excellence orwe're part of the global HR
team or the global diversityteam at the headquarters of the
firm or the organization.
And then we see these methodsdrift into faraway places and
then people scratch their headsand say, what do we do with this
?
Um, how do we, how do weapproach that?
(23:13):
How do you and I both have seenthose methods drift into
different places, sort of theelephant on the plane, uh, drama
, what have you seen?
And how do we start to becomemore interculturally intelligent
about all of this?
Because we need to seesolutions.
But stuffing the elephant onthe plane and then taking it to
(23:34):
faraway places is notnecessarily the way to go.
Linda Berlot (23:38):
I can't tell you how many HR teams I have worked
with across organizations thatcomplain about this.
Right, they say you know, buthead office is sending us this
policy, this is how we have toexecute it, and then it doesn't
work.
Right, the elephant can't justbe stuffed on the plane and I
think, well, it's that.
(24:01):
Go global, think local.
And what that means for me isthat align around the intention
of the policy what do you wantto achieve?
But then trust the systems inthe diverse lands to come up
with solutions that they can own.
So trust that the system isinnately intelligent, creative
(24:23):
and they will come up withsolutions around diversity that
work for them and will give youthe result that you're looking
for.
If you want to cookie cut astamp, it won't work because it
won't be relevant, it may nothonor the local deities, it may
not be culturally appropriate.
You know you, you miss, youwould be missing a lot of
(24:46):
perspective that the local teamshave right.
So, um, does that mean we can'tcontrol everything?
Yes, does it mean we have totrust the local teams a lot more
?
Yes, yes, is that scary?
Yes, I'm sure it is.
Yeah.
But it is the only way forward,in my belief.
Marco Blankenburgh (25:07):
So you're raising a number of issues.
You know one of them has to dowith you know you mentioned
think global act local, which ishard to do because if,
especially if you look at itfrom a large global
organization's perspective youdon't know, you can't control,
it's very hard to police whathappens locally.
It's almost more comforting todesign a method and say, okay,
(25:34):
we've got it, absolutely A niceglobal communication strategy
around it and we push it out thedoor.
Global communication strategyaround it and we push it out the
door.
That's almost easier to do thanto start doing what you just
suggested.
It's scary.
Do we have the talent locally?
Can they actually come up withthese localized solutions?
(25:56):
How do you actuallyoperationalize something like
that?
How?
Linda Berlot (26:01):
does it work?
I think the question I alwaysask is how much money are you
willing to throw away?
Marco Blankenburgh (26:06):
Willing to throw away.
Linda Berlot (26:07):
Throw away, because if you push what you
believe is right and it doesn'twork, how much will that cost
you Versus perhaps, implementinga process which might be slower
?
Perhaps implementing a processwhich might be slower because we
may need to educate teams,empower teams, train up teams to
(26:27):
think and be brave enough tospeak up and provide solutions.
So it might take a littlelonger, but in the end, teams
themselves will come up withsolutions that will work in
their context.
So how do we operationalizethat?
The best way for me is to askthe local teams what's needed,
(26:52):
what's appropriate.
I would say spend more timeupfront asking more questions.
Marco Blankenburgh (26:55):
Yeah, you mentioned earlier on.
You know there might be apolicy or there might be a
desired objective that anorganization sets.
It could be to do with gender,it could be to do with other
versions of diversity, it couldbe the way they recruit local
talent, et cetera, et cetera.
But you mentioned, you knowthere is the policy or the
(27:17):
desired outcome, but there isthe intent behind it.
So it seems you're saying focusmore on the intent.
Is the intent behind it?
So it seems you're saying focusmore on the intent than the
how-to and if the intent isclear, then figure out the
how-to.
Local Is that?
Linda Berlot (27:32):
the direction you wanna go.
I think so.
So be clear on the what and thewhy, and then let them figure
out the how Right, becauseyou'll get your result.
It might look different indifferent countries, but the
outcome will be what you want.
Marco Blankenburgh (27:47):
It almost sounds like if that's the way to
go, then from a global if youhave a global organization point
of view they need to be morecoach oriented in the way they
navigate how things are globallydone in different locations.
Maybe more coaching skills forpeople who are at these global
roles.
Linda Berlot (28:07):
I think so so well , the coaching and the education
starts at the globalperspective right, allowing them
to understand that in a worldwith different cultures, the
same solution might not work aworld with different cultures,
the same solution might not work.
And helping them, you know,move away from what they believe
to be right to being morecurious, asking more questions,
(28:29):
the ability to ask morequestions, and accept that
different isn't wrong, it's justdifferent.
And if I hold that to be true,how do I challenge my own
beliefs and then get curiousabout what's being said?
Challenge my own beliefs andthen get curious?
about what's being said.
That will allow me to trustmore, but there might be more
skills and education that'sneeded on the ground.
Marco Blankenburgh (28:50):
Absolutely.
We're talking about skills andeducation.
Some of the people in ournetwork have said well,
sometimes people want to do toomuch too fast.
Either it's to do with the lawthe law dictates that we need to
have a percentage of certaintypes of diversity, so we need
(29:12):
to hit that percentage asquickly as possible or there's
been a legal fallout.
Legal fallout Typically it'srelated to racism, nasty
stereotypes, popping upunconscious bias, taking
organizations into the wrongdirection.
So there's that trigger andthen they say, okay, now we need
(29:35):
to do something about it and weneed to follow the directives
from above.
And then people push that outthe door and then it quite
frequently has a negative impact.
One of our facilitators he sayshe's often seen and this was
within the North Americancontext and he says often
(29:58):
programs like that.
The way they impact theparticipants is fight or freeze.
And he says we've beenbrainstorming about finding
solutions.
How do you get to a point wherethese programs become fun?
The coaching journeys becomefun.
They are relevant in the localcontext.
(30:19):
People walk away from them notwith their hairs up and emotions
all over the place, and so I'mdone with this and I'm
frustrated about it.
How do you get back to reallythe joy of exploring diversity,
the joy of building culturetogether.
How do you do it?
Linda Berlot (30:38):
I think it's really important to provide
people with a positiveexperience, to move away from
finger pointing and findingvarious groups wrong, because
we're all right and we're alsoall wrong.
In OSC we have, you know,everybody is right partially,
and the opposite of that is alsotrue right.
And so if we can create anenvironment which is fun, and so
if we can create an environmentwhich is fun, it's powerful.
(31:03):
People feel like their voice isvalued when they speak.
They feel heard, they feelunderstood and at the same time,
they're learning to challengetheir own mindsets, challenge
their own perspectives.
They get taught questioningtechniques or they get taught
tools to really listen to eachother, give each other feedback
(31:23):
in a way that is respectful andnot hurtful.
All of a sudden, people startenjoying what they are doing.
I was working with a very largelocal company fairly recently
and all of the culturalstereotypical behaviors were
present.
All of the culturalstereotypical behaviors were
(31:46):
present.
I had lots of choices.
I could have got upset, I couldhave put my foot down, I could
have got to a more schoolteacher-ish approach, but I
didn't.
I chose to step intorelationship and I designed the
workshop.
Not the tools and skills,because those had been agreed to
up front, but I designed withthe participants.
How did we want to create thisday that we had together?
(32:09):
What would work in terms oftimings, checking your phones,
walking in and out?
How do we want to be around allof that?
And they truly came to the party.
They were present.
The disruptors became mybiggest allies, you know.
Afterwards, in a way it pleasedme but also broke my heart a
little bit, because they came tome and said this was the best
(32:32):
course we've ever attended.
We walked in here thinking I'veattended so many of these
leadership development courses,what on earth can this lady
teach me?
But they felt that we had putsome very applicable tools in
their hands.
We'd given them skills whichwere relationship skills so that
they could take not just intheir teams as leaders, but also
(32:56):
in their families, in theirsocial groups, in all of their
environments.
So they learned in a fun,engaging environment.
No one was made to feel wrongedin any way and we put usable
tools in their hands.
So it wasn't theoretic basedthere was very little theory, if
(33:17):
you will.
So they walked out knowing whatto do next, if you will, very
applicable, and they loved that.
Marco Blankenburgh (33:25):
I'm picking up on something you say, because
I think it's important thatwhat you give people is not just
applicable at work, and that'sin our intercultural agility
work that's always been superimportant for us.
You know, you can use thosetools when you go shopping, when
you're out and about, whenyou're with your loved ones,
(33:46):
with family, and with yourcolleagues and with your clients
.
I think that's also one of theconnect points from the early
days that we both have thatdesire to really give people
relational skills, no matter whothey're connecting with.
Linda Berlot (34:02):
Yeah, Absolutely, and I'm very aware that when I
work with a group of leadersprobably a few months ago I
finished a workshop with youngleaders at this age I'm usually
the oldest person in the room.
But why that's absolutelydelightful for me is that when I
asked the question, how many ofyou have children?
They all put their hands up.
(34:24):
So we're putting these skillsinto mothers and fathers hands
leaders, of course and they'regoing home and teaching these
skills to their children.
So it's got a it's world workin the end has a knock-on effect
.
I can't imagine how different mylife would have been if
somebody had put these tools andskills in my hands when I was
(34:46):
five or six or ten.
My whole life would bedifferent, yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (34:50):
So their first team is their home team.
Yes, absolutely yeah, that'sgreat.
Now we already have you know.
You started to give examplesjust now about you know, the
actual creation of culture.
You say relationship isimportant, but ultimately it
needs to go somewhere right, soit needs to become so.
(35:11):
This idea of creating culturewe've started saying recently.
You know, every time two humanbeings meet, they are creating
culture.
The question is, how good areyou at doing it?
Or is it just happening to youand you're not in control of it?
You say, oops, what justhappened?
Yeah, you know.
(35:31):
So I love that.
How, how does all the work youdo, how does that sort of
culminate into that and why isit so important?
Linda Berlot (35:40):
Because relationship matters.
In a world that has more andmore challenge and conflict,
relationship and, dare I say,love matters.
And, yeah, something isgenerated.
Two people make eye contact andit's either a project or a baby
, but something is created.
And so we focus people on beingconscious and intentional about
(36:02):
the relationships they want tocreate.
And that's why cultural agilityis so important, Because we're
not just coming together I meanteams come together to produce
something, a project, and as acouple, we come together too.
But how do we come together?
How do we produce that project?
And we know that the morepositivity there is in a team
(36:26):
meaning not rah, rah, rah,happiness but the more positive
we feel about working together,the more safe I feel when
working with you, the more trustthat's born between us, the
more I can feel safe to fail andthen pick myself up and
continue to work.
So the more positive a teamfeels, the more productive they
(36:49):
will be, and people of diversecultures feel safe when they
feel heard, seen and understood.
That's why we want team membersto be conscious and intentional
about the dynamics they arecreating together.
Marco Blankenburgh (37:06):
Now, you've already mentioned a number of
ingredients that you sort of use.
So, if you think about yourwork as putting a beautiful meal
together, you've mentioned anumber of ingredients, but also,
just for our audience maybe,what are your key ingredients?
If you think about working witha team, what makes a beautiful
(37:27):
meal?
Linda Berlot (37:28):
That's such a big question.
To start off, I like tosprinkle in a good amount of
powerful questions and I teachthe team, or coach the team, to
be curious about each other, soto challenge their perspectives.
We all make judgments andchallenging my perspective means
(37:50):
not assuming that my judgmentis right, but going out and
checking and being curious andaccepting that that could be
your truth.
Very often I believe my way isright and therefore you are
wrong and that's what causes theconflict.
Right, but if I can accept,well, my way is right and
somehow you're also right.
So being curious around thatand then helping the team to
(38:12):
design how they want to bearound that, how do we move
forward, accepting that both ofthose need to exist somehow in
the way forward?
Marco Blankenburgh (38:24):
Maybe just to comment on that, because I
think that's important in ourworld, that it is actually very
possible to be in relationshipand have a very different
perspective on things, and Ifind that the media at the
moment, some politicians, somecultures, seem to say no, no, no
, that's not possible.
If people think different fromyou, you disconnect, you find
(38:46):
people who think like you whichyou seem to say no, that's
actually.
I want to pursue the opposite.
Linda Berlot (38:53):
I think there is so much at the moment that's
creating division out in theworld the media, social media,
the news everything's creatingdivision and accentuating the
division.
It's easier to be withlike-minded individuals because
there are commonly understoodnorms which we can quickly align
(39:14):
around.
But it doesn't mean that ifwe're different, we can't get
along and create strong,powerful, connected
relationships.
I we can't get along and createstrong, powerful, connected
relationships.
I think we can, but we have tobe curious and accept that there
is diversity, to talk aboutthat diversity, not just ignore
it.
So, for example, staying awayfrom comments like I don't see
(39:34):
the diversity, we're all thesame, but when you say that
you're actually marginalizing adiversity piece, so name it and
get curious about it and thenbuild a relationship that is
inclusive of all of thosediversity pieces.
Marco Blankenburgh (39:50):
So what are some other ingredients in your
beautiful tasty meal?
Linda Berlot (39:56):
I like to encourage people to turn towards
each other, not away from eachother, and that's challenging
sometimes.
So staying away fromcommunication pieces that are
disrespectful Disrespectful inall cultures but learning what
respectful communication soundsand looks like in different
cultures.
And so, for me, communicationis key so that we can fight
(40:19):
right.
So, for me, communication iskey so that we can fight right.
Have fights that, you know,don't upset or offend, but allow
us to stay connected.
I was 40 when I learned thatyou can be angry with someone
and fight and still berespectful.
I didn't know that before.
I thought fighting was all outwar and it was important to win,
(40:41):
and, of course, you don't winat all right.
Marco Blankenburgh (40:46):
You just create division and in the end…
it deteriorates very fast whenit becomes personal.
Linda Berlot (40:49):
Right, yeah, right .
So teaching each other totruly… Teaching team members to
truly hear each other.
Marco Blankenburgh (40:55):
This is also very, very key and respecting
what I'm hearing, even though Imight hold a very different
opinion, how do you work withleaders, because I know leaders
play a key role, but how do youallow them to be part of what
you're trying to accomplish?
Linda Berlot (41:11):
Very important question.
So often we get called to thetable and the leader says coach,
my team, they are the issue.
So the first is an educationalpiece that you are part of the
dynamic.
Each one of you plays a verydifferent role, but an integral
role.
It's that puzzle piece.
So the leader must be in and Istart to work with the leader,
(41:35):
upfront role modeling how Iwould like for us to then be
with the team as a whole, sodesigning with the leader how do
they want to be with me and mewith them?
How do we want to partnertogether?
How do we want to work throughour differences or our
challenges?
(41:58):
Probably my most challengingconversation was with a team
leader.
This one happened to be a man.
He had a very strong work ethic, was very dominant and felt
very uncomfortable, beingvulnerable, okay.
And so there was a design piecearound that and he kept
speaking over me andinterrupting me.
So I kind of had to meet himeye to eye and say I'm driving
(42:18):
this bus and although heacknowledged that that was a
tough conversation to have, hewas thankfully able to surrender
to my leadership in that momentand that was a great learning
point for that leader, becausethat dynamic?
Well, there are parallelprocesses happening all the time
.
Right, that dynamic?
Well, there are parallelprocesses happening all the time
(42:39):
.
So that dynamic was playingitself out with the team.
Except they had a lot more tolose by standing up to him.
So what happened between us nowcould be role modeled and I
could empower him to lead thatpiece in the team because he
needed that and it gave the teammembers hope.
Marco Blankenburgh (43:01):
They saw it happen in front of them Right
and it gave the team leader anew platform to move forward in
a different way.
Linda Berlot (43:07):
Yeah, the magic was in that was that this leader
was extraordinary because theywere really there to learn and
the vulnerability came throughfrom the very beginning and that
allowed the team to bevulnerable.
It allowed the team to see thatperson and not just the mask
(43:28):
that they'd been wearing yeahand it was extremely powerful.
They walked away.
The engagement scores in theorganization shot through the
roof just because the of thatwork that we did in that
multicultural team and broughtthe leaders as a leadership team
much closer together.
Marco Blankenburgh (43:48):
We alluded here and there in this
conversation to the challengesof the world that we live in.
When you think about your workand working with teams, working
with leaders, working withorganizations what are some of
the most important challengesthat you would say, yeah, that's
what people need to really payattention to.
Conflict Okay.
Linda Berlot (44:15):
Fighting right is for me key across cultures.
Right is, for me, key acrosscultures.
Fighting right, for me, meansbeing passionate and unfiltered
and respectful and allowing allvoices to be heard and valued.
Everybody has a right to speakand be heard, and not dominating
(44:37):
the conversation and believingthat my way is the right way.
Marco Blankenburg (44:41):
Unfortunately , we don't live in a world with
a lot of good examples.
Linda Berlot (44:44):
No, you just have to listen to the news, right?
Yeah, I've become a little bitalmost intolerant of what I hear
in the news and at the sametime, that drives me even more
to do the work that we do, marco, because I truly believe
conflict is healthy.
(45:05):
We don't want vanilla and wedon't want cookie cutter of each
other.
It's so precious to be diverseand the only way that we can
work through the challengesbetween us is to have conflict.
But if you view conflict as adoorway, or a dream door, to
something different wanting toemerge and we believe that and
(45:26):
we stay in the fight, but have aclean fight or fight right we
can create something differentin the world.
Marco Blankenburgh (45:35):
So learning to be okay with tension,
conflict, difference of opinion,but also having the skills to
find that door and walk throughit together.
What else do you see in theworld?
What's important to payattention to?
Linda Berlot (45:52):
For me, some of the news in the world makes me
feel like there are impossiblesituations, right, some of the
news pieces that are emergingfeel gridlocked, right, and we
know that if we try and resolveconflict at the level that it's
(46:12):
playing out, we can't unlockthat gridlock.
Marco Blankenburgh (46:15):
It's too complex, too many people, too
many parties involved, etc.
Linda Berlot (46:19):
That's right.
The key to resolving gridlockis to going back to how do I
feel, what's emerging in me interms of emotion, and then
re-dreaming up that story.
Right, re-dreaming up the story.
If I rethink the story of whatI'm feeling in a different way,
(46:42):
the way I behave will bedifferent.
And if we do that together, wecan start to unlock some of
these terrible, impossiblesituations that are emerging in
the world.
But to do that, we have toaccept that if I'm feeling
frustrated and you're feelingfrustrated, it might be for two
very different reasons, it'strue, and I bear some
(47:04):
responsibility of how you'refeeling, and vice versa.
Marco Blankenburgh (47:08):
Yeah, the thing to that point.
I think there's a lot ofdilemmas we face in the world
that are really going to be withus for the foreseeable future.
Be with us for the foreseeablefuture and the illusion of let's
solve this problem or let'sovercome this challenge is
(47:29):
something that I have to.
I naturally want to solve theproblem and move on, but a lot
of these dilemmas you can'tsolve.
You just have to collaborateand connect and find ways to
navigate it more effectively.
And connect and find ways tonavigate it more effectively.
So doing what you're saying,doing that at a more granular
level, as opposed to allfocusing on the big macro issues
(47:49):
.
One of the issues that's thrownat everyone, of course, is the
whole technology.
Some people say industrialrevolution 4.0 is already passé.
5.0 has already started, withAI taking incredible flight,
sometimes uncontrolled.
The world of work is changingrapidly.
(48:10):
What do you see with teams andhow do people prepare for all
these changes?
All this friction, all thisconflict how do people prepare
for that?
How do you work with teams too?
Linda Berlot (48:22):
It's true, marco, the leaders that we work with
are complaining a lot about thepace of change and the type of
change that's happening.
We I mean as a Generation Xdare I say that in our lifetime
how much change we've seen andit feels like it's accelerating
(48:45):
right.
So we've got so much change andso much diversity that we could
never have dreamt of.
So equipping leaders tonavigate this is important.
Ai is emerging quickly, but onething that machines cannot
teach us is how to be human.
So my belief is and I guessthat's one of the drivers why
(49:06):
I'm driven to doing this quickerand quicker with larger and
larger groups my belief is thatAI can't teach us how to be in
relationship, how to be human.
How to be human, it's theability that we will have to
(49:37):
stay human and connect at arelationship level, which is
going to be more and moreimportant, learning skills to
collaborate better and becreative and access our
creativity.
You know, um, how do we haveempathy for each other, right?
How do we really come from aplace of love and one where I
want to hear your point of view,where I can suspend my point of
view and then champion yourpoint of view.
You know, one of my teammembers the other day laughed
because they said to me how dowe get to this place where you
(50:00):
had one point of view, point ofview A, I had point of view B
and by the end of it you areholding my point of view and I
was holding yours.
How did that swap?
And I said that is the crux ofhumanness, of conscious and
intentional relationships, wherewe bring love and empathy to
(50:20):
the table, because I care aboutyou and your point of view and
vice versa, that I want to finda way forward together and I
think machines can't take thataway from us.
Marco Blankenburgh (50:32):
Some people might say well, that's all you
know.
It sounds really almost utopian.
How does that allow us to be amore successful organization?
So what have you seen?
Linda Berlot (50:48):
Because at the moment, we still have humans
working in our organizations.
It's the humans, who have avery human experience, that are
getting the work done.
We're not at the place whereit's just machines and one day I
might be eating my own hat butat the moment we still have
humans, and so it's important toown our humanness and to help
(51:11):
organizations do the same.
Marco Blankenburgh (51:13):
Yeah, it's a future that we don't quite know
what it's going to look like.
But, yeah, a lot of the even ifjust reading lot of the, even
if just reading up on this theskills we need for the future.
That which is now is really allabout some of the ones you just
mentioned collaboration,holding conflict much more
loosely instead of tightly beingin relationship with people who
(51:37):
think different from us,connected to people who are more
divergent and, as a result,coming up with better solutions,
better creativity so all ofthose are almost must-haves and
creating team cultures wherethey can flourish.
Absolutely, I think it's superimportant and obviously I can
(51:58):
see that you're passionate aboutyour work.
You love what you do and it'salmost dangerous in today's
world to ask where are you goingto be a few years from now?
Would you still be doing thiswork?
What are you hoping for?
Linda Berlot (52:12):
Sometimes I think how nice it would be to be
sitting on a beach reading abook and living my life out in
that way, but I know that not tobe true for myself, or not for
very long or not for very long.
Or not for very long, especiallybecause of what you've just
said.
For me, my work is not a job.
It's almost like a vocation.
I am driven to create morepeace in the world, one team at
(52:34):
a time.
If I can help teams fight rightor be in better relationship,
help teams fight right or be inbetter relationship, then I will
feel like my work is done.
My work is valuable and thereis no end to that.
There is no end to supportingor coaching teams to learn how
to be more empathetic, morecollaborative and to be more
(52:58):
respectful towards each othereven during conflict.
More collaborative and and tobe more respectful towards each
other even during conflict.
So I don't see my work maybeslowing down, but not ever
ending.
Yeah, well.
Marco Blankenburgh (53:07):
Thank you so much for today's conversation.
Thank you, um, and if if you'velistened to this conversation
today and you want to connectwith linda, her contact details
will be in the notes section ofthis podcast.
So connect with her, connectwith the Berlotte Group team,
and I'm sure that your team oryour leadership situation can be
(53:29):
equally impacted by how Lindaengages with teams.
So thank you for joining on thepodcast.
It's always great to unpackthese conversations and we will
continue to work together.
Linda Berlot (53:43):
We certainly will, Marco.
Thank you for inviting me onthe podcast.
It's always delightful.
I love these conversationsbetween us.
We generate a lot of sparkinessbetween us and I always enjoy
that.
Marco Blankenburgh (53:54):
Thank you.
Thank you for listeningeveryone.
Linda Berlot (53:57):
Thank you everyone .
Marco Blankenburgh (54:00):
Thank you so much for joining us for this
episode of the Cultural AgilityPodcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,share it with someone.
The best way to help us out isby leaving a review on your
favorite podcast app or channel,or forward and recommend this
podcast to people around you.
As always, if any of the topicswe discuss today intrigue you,
(54:22):
you will find links to articlesdiscussing them in greater depth
in the podcast notes.
If you would like to learn moreabout intercultural
intelligence and how you canbecome more culturally agile,
you can find more informationand hundreds of articles at
knowledgeworkscom and hundredsof articles at knowledgeworkscom
.
A special thanks to JasonCarter for composing the music
(54:47):
on this podcast and to the wholeKnowledgeWorks team for making
this podcast a success.
Thank you, nita Rodriguez, araAzizbakian, rajitha Raj and
thanks to Vip and George foraudio production, rosalind Raj
for scheduling and Caleb Straussfor marketing and helping
produce this podcast.
Thanks to Vip and George foraudio production, rosalind Raj
for scheduling and Caleb Straussfor marketing and helping
produce this podcast.
The analogy that I love using is that of a puzzle.
Right, we would never expect apuzzle for all the pieces to be
the same.
It wouldn't create a picture.
So if we can accept that puzzlepieces, we want them to all
look different.
Right, but all are needed bythe puzzle to create the
beautiful picture that thepuzzle creates.
(00:22):
And it's the same withdiversity.
Each one of us is.
The team is richer for thediversity that we each bring to
the table.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:41):
Welcome to the Cultural Agility Podcast,
where we explore the stories ofsome of the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world to help you
become culturally agile andsucceed in today's culturally
complex world.
I'm your host, MarcoBlankenberg, International
Director of KnowledgeWorks,where every day we help
(01:01):
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world.
Welcome again to anotherepisode of Unlocking Cultural
Agility, and I'm so happy thatLinda Berlotte is back with us
again.
Actually, the very, very firstpodcast we recorded was us
(01:23):
together.
Linda Berlot (01:24):
That's right, that's how we started.
Marco Blankenburgh (01:27):
So thank you for making the time, and it's
always great to hear all thethings that you're involved with
, but also I always have lovedsharing our perspectives.
We have come a long waytogether, but for our listeners
it would be really good if youcan just do a brief introduction
who is Linda Berlotte?
And we'll dive straight intothe subject.
(01:48):
For today, Absolutely, marco.
Linda Berlot (01:50):
Thank you for inviting me back onto your
podcast.
We had so much fun last timetalking about both relationships
teams as well as interculturalagility.
Both of these topics are closeto our heart, I know, so I'm
thrilled to be here with youagain.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:04):
So tell me a little bit more about Linda.
Linda Berlot (02:08):
How long do you have?
So I am Italian.
I have been living here in theMiddle East, in Dubai
specifically, for the last 20years.
I came here for two.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:22):
Heard that before Right.
Linda Berlot (02:24):
It's now my home.
I am passionate about many,many things food, music, dancing
but, more importantly, I lovewhat we do.
I am absolutely passionateabout working with teams and,
more specifically, multiculturalteams, to help bring more
connection and more peace tothese teams, despite the
(02:47):
diversity that lives betweenthem.
Now, we all know diversity is agift and very often in a
multicultural team, this cancreate a lot of challenges, and
I love working with these teamsto help them find a different
way forward.
Marco Blankenburgh (03:01):
You said you're based in Dubai, but you
don't just work in Dubai.
Tell us a little bit more.
Where does your work take you?
Linda Berlot (03:09):
That's right.
My work takes me across theglobe, really, from Mexico to
Thailand and everything inbetween.
Wow.
Marco Blankenburgh (03:17):
Wow, it's an exciting but sometimes maybe
also challenging span ofcountries, span of time zones.
Now you already mentionedintercultural agility.
We've had the privilege ofapplying that in our own unique
ways, sometimes working togetheron projects.
But how is interculturalagility making a difference,
(03:40):
maybe even for you as a personto start with, but also how does
it make a difference in thework that you do?
Linda Berlot (03:47):
Marco, for me, cultural issues in groups have
always lit up like string infront of me.
I've always been able to seethat when there is
misunderstanding or people arenot hearing each other or
sometimes miscommunication, thatpartly could be who they are
and also partly could becultural.
(04:08):
So whenever I am traveling Isee these cultural differences
between me and whoever I amsurrounded by.
That happened to me from a veryyoung age, I guess, because we
traveled extensively as a familyand I've lived in so many
different countries that I wasalways able to see that
diversity piece and get verycurious around that.
(04:30):
But so almost it's becomesecond nature for me personally
to become interculturally agile.
But I see how important it isin the world that we live in,
right, where we're a globalizedworld, most teams now are
multicultural and so it's becomevitally important for team
(04:51):
members to really learn to moveaway from me and you to
understanding and being curiousabout that which is most
different, which could be adifferent culture, a different
personality or anything elsereally.
Marco Blankenburgh (05:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Now, today we were hoping totalk a little bit more about
some contentious issues.
Potentially, there's a lot ofthinking about diversity, equity
, inclusion, belonging.
A lot of the original thinkinginitially came out of more the
Western countries and there'sbeen some hiccups around that,
(05:26):
so we're going to takepermission from our audience
today to give maybe a moreglobal perspective on that.
We both are in the trenchespretty much every week in
working with teams, working withleaders, working with
organizations on organizationalculture, etc.
So let's get into it.
When we listen to you know, thisyear is a crazy year when it
(05:49):
comes to elections.
Actually, I just learned thatthis is the year where more
people on the planet vote for anew leader than any time in
history before.
So, unfortunately, what hashappened with the world of
diversity?
In many countries?
Actually, it's become part ofthe political agenda and, I must
(06:11):
say, in some countries it'sactually unfortunate almost
because it politicizes it.
It sometimes even weaponizes it.
What you do with diversity andhow you think about it, While
people like yourself and others,they just want to come
alongside teams, come alongsideleaders and navigate diversity,
(06:31):
tool them up, help them.
So how do we move forward?
Are we facing a situation wherethe core is not the core
anymore.
People start to lose track ofwhy it was invented in the first
place or why it was emphasizedin the first place.
So how do we deal with this?
(06:52):
People try to politicize it.
People try to say, no, this ismy agenda.
And then, in the midst of that,your heart is really to bring
people together to help peoplebe effective together so how do
we stay focused on the core withall this noise?
Daniel Kahneman would call thislots of noise in the system.
We try to stay focused.
(07:14):
How do we do that?
Linda Berlot (07:16):
For me, and I'm sure that you and we all have
different opinions around thisright.
That's why it's so contentious,I guess.
But for me it's important toremember that we are all diverse
and that diversity plays itselfout in not just personality or
gender or the big pieces, butculture is one of those, and no
(07:39):
one culture should drive theagenda for anyone else, because
there are things that areimportant for me which may not
necessarily be important for you, or there may be overriding
important factors that are moreimportant for you, right?
So, for example, race might beimportant for me, but you are
striving to stay alive in awar-torn country, so that's
(08:03):
going to be primary for you.
It would not be right for me topose my agenda on your culture
and in your situation, becauseit's just not relevant and also,
I believe, not quite respectful.
I think respect is something,not just the obvious things of
saying good morning and goodevening and being polite.
Respect is truly accepting thenuances of diversity and not
(08:28):
pushing those to serve my agenda.
Marco Blankenburgh (08:31):
Yeah, I think that's well said being
able to maybe be a little bitmore open-handed as opposed to
you know, here's my agenda, myprescription.
Yeah.
And what I hear you say reallyis what we talk about being
having more of a culturallearner mindset.
Yeah, as opposed to bringing aprescription or bringing a
(08:54):
method to navigate things.
Well, one of the things thatwe've seen in coming up with
solutions to navigate diversity,to create healthy cultures
together.
One of the dilemmas I've seenis that, you know, every method
is always designed through thelens of the method creator,
(09:16):
right?
So culturally around the world,some cultures are very
relationship centric in the waythey look at things and other
cultures are much moreproblem-centric, and very often
problem-centric cultures tend tohave more direct communication
and relationship-centriccultures have a little bit more
indirect communication.
(09:36):
But I've seen this play out inso many methods and approaches
to navigating diversity, equity,inclusion, belonging.
So talk to me about thedifference.
So you have problem-centricways of looking at things to
figure out what's at the center,agree on it and then magically
(09:56):
make it go away, or a morerelationship-centric approach,
which is a different.
Some people say I don't havetime for that, it takes too long
or it's too fluffy, nottangible enough.
So talk to me about thedifference and how you've seen
it play out, the choices you'vemade in your work.
Linda Berlot (10:15):
Thank you for raising that, because I see it
being played out obviously inthe multicultural teams we work
with, but also out in the worldand also in the teams I belong
to, right, where we've gotproblem-centered cultures which
are very for them.
It's very important to put theproblem in the center, to talk
about it, to very clearly definewhat the problem is and, like
(10:38):
you said, they have a verydirect communication approach
and the person with more verbal,more words, more sophisticated
language usually pulls rank onidentifying what the problem is.
On the other side, we have arelationship-centered approach
where it's more important for usto rebuild our relationship
after there's been a problem andto focus on rebuilding trust
(11:02):
and respect and helping eachother feel honored.
In a way, relationship-centeredcultures may never go back to
talk about the problem becausethey're building their
relationships, so they've builttheir relationship past the
issue that there may no longerbe a need to go back and talk
about the problem.
(11:22):
Or, if they've built a lot oftrust and safety, they might at
a later stage, you know, re-lookat it and talk about it in a
very different way.
So you can see how those twodifferent approaches would clash
right.
Marco Blankenburgh (11:37):
Absolutely yes, that's what I'm trying to
reflect on.
Okay, how does that if you havepeople who are saying no, no,
no, no.
We need to get to the bottom ofthis.
You know what's the issue.
Let's talk about what's theissue.
And then another person getshesitant or scared or nervous
and say, well, wait a minute.
I thought it was about you andme.
(12:15):
So yeah, just this last week Iwas talking to somebody I'm
coaching right now and she'svery much from a
relationship-oriented culture,very community,
accountability-oriented, quite abit of honor, shame, and she's
in an organization that is veryright and wrong, innocence,
guilt, very policy driven, andsomething happened that
triggered the policy and one ofthe things she said in the
conversation.
She said I thought we created aspace where my story could be
(12:38):
heard and she said the policydidn't allow me for my story to
be heard.
And now that I'm listening toyou, I thought that's a classic
example of problem-centric thepolicy kicks in, certain rules
apply and she was saying no, Iwant my story to be heard, I
want to have a chance to have aconversation with people,
because relationships areimportant for me.
Linda Berlot (12:58):
Absolutely, and what you find is the more
problem-centric for them.
It's very important that we dothings right, that we follow the
right path and we do thingsright For relationship-centric
cultures.
It's important that we honoreach other, respect each other,
that we don't embarrass eachother or anything like that.
I see that played out in teamsall the time, right when people
(13:23):
well, let's say, a policy kicksin and you can't get it feels
stuck.
If you pick up the phone or getup and walk to the office and,
you know, have a chat and aconversation with the person,
all of a sudden, magically, youget everything resolved because
we've stepped into relationship,we've made each other feel seen
and understood and and, andthen their issue doesn't exist
(13:46):
anymore and, despite there beinga policy, all of a sudden we
can create the solution togetheryeah, yeah, so that that idea
of being willing and allowed tohave a conversation.
Marco Blankenburgh (14:01):
It brings a new perspective.
I think I mentioned this beforeon the podcast, but in Dutch we
have a saying unknown makesunloved.
So if I'm not allowed to talkto you and there is a challenge
between us, I start to create myown perspective of you and it
gets reinforced by people whosupport me and, on the other
(14:23):
side of the equation, getsreinforced by the people who
support the other party, andthen it just widens the gap?
Linda Berlot (14:29):
Absolutely, we make so much.
It's fascinating how we do thatas humans, and there are
reasons, obviously, why we learnto do that.
But we would make an assumptionand have a perception about
what's happening and then, ofcourse, if I'm looking at it
(14:52):
through that lens, everythingthat I see or do confirms my
original belief, but I don't goout and check if that belief is
indeed true or if it's just thestory I'm making up.
And then what ends up happeningis I treat you as if my belief
is correct.
Marco Blankenburgh (15:01):
You just briefly mentioned, you know,
know, seeing two people having achance to chat, having a chance
to hear each other's story, andthen you said, magically, the
problem goes away.
But what actually happens ifyou take a more relationship
centric approach because I knowin your work that's what you do
um, how does how does that shift?
Even if on a multicultural teamyou have lots of diversity in
(15:25):
the room, some people say no, no, no, we first need to talk
about the problem.
If they allow you to take theminto the relational route or the
relational space, how is thatdifferent?
Linda Berlot (15:36):
Yeah, To be honest , all of the work that we do
focuses on the relationship or,in a corporate setting, the team
dynamics between people.
So we're constantly coachingthe team members to shift the
focus away from me and you tothe we and looking at where are
the places that we can align.
So, if a policy is creatingstuckness, what can we both
(15:59):
align around?
What do we both want to achieve?
And so we're not making anybodywrong.
It's not me above you or youabove me, or my way versus your
way.
We're really looking for a waythat is good for the
relationship, that is inclusiveof both of our cultures or both
of our beliefs, and I feel thatbecause of this approach, we
(16:22):
create very close, connectedrelationships, and when team
members feel more closelyconnected, when there is more
positivity, it makes them moreresilient in times of conflict
or in times of change.
So all of our approaches arerelationship-centric.
Marco Blankenburgh (16:39):
And you haven't mentioned it, but you
are very passionate about oneteam coaching methodology I am
let's say a little bit moreabout that it's the osc, team
coaching or coach coachingmethodology.
Linda Berlot (16:52):
It's a systemic coaching methodology.
Osc stands for organization andrelationship systems coaching
and yes, I'm passionate about itbecause not only is it the
model that we use in ourcoaching, but I'm also the local
partner here in the gcc.
So we we run a school to teachpeople to be systemic coaches
(17:14):
such as ourselves, right rightgcc the gulf countries the gulf
countries correct?
Marco Blankenburgh (17:19):
yeah, so you mentioned intercultural agility
is close to your heart.
It's been part of your lifejourney.
You now mentioned ORSC,relational organizational
coaching methodology.
How do the two blend together?
Linda Berlot (17:36):
My belief is that relationship supersedes
everything.
Right, and if we focus on therelationship, we can talk about
the differences between us,because the focus is the
relationship.
We can talk about the diversitypieces without making either
one of us wrong, without makingcreating embarrassment or shame
(17:57):
for anybody.
We can look at the team as awhole or the system as a whole
and look at all the variouspieces that are different, and
we wouldn't want it to be anyother way.
The analogy that I love usingis that of a puzzle.
Right, we would never expect apuzzle for all the pieces to be
the same.
It wouldn't create a picture.
Marco Blankenburgh (18:19):
Yeah, and it would be a nightmare to put
together.
Linda Berlot (18:21):
Imagine that all red, all blue.
So if we can accept that puzzlepieces, we want them to all
look different, right?
If we use that as a metaphorand we imagine that each one of
us is a piece of the puzzle,each one of us has an individual
identity.
So the puzzle pieces mine, I amresponsible for it, I come in a
(18:45):
particular way, but all areneeded by the puzzle to create
the beautiful picture that thepuzzle creates.
And it's the same withdiversity.
Each one of us is the team isricher for the diversity that we
each bring to the table, richerfor the diversity that we each
bring to the table.
And it's up to us to learnskills and tools to talk about
(19:07):
the diversity, in an effort toeducate each other about what's
important for me and what'simportant for you, so that then
we can design, you know,we-centered cultures or
we-centered team dynamics.
Marco Blankenburgh (19:19):
I remember you once talked about the fact
that in team coaching you oftenhave two facilitators.
So how does even already havingtwo facilitators, which could
be diverse in and of itself, howdoes that impact the way you
facilitate team journeys, teamsessions?
Linda Berlot (19:39):
I love that you point towards that, and I
remember when I first started todo this work and we deliver
this work in so many differentcountries around the world my
first lens was, oh, I'm going toanother country, I'm going to
be coaching a group from adifferent culture, and that was
where my focus was, until therestarted to be challenges and
conflict, maybe between me andmy colleagues.
(20:00):
And then I looked to where mycolleague was sitting and I
thought, oh, there's culturaldifferences here between us too.
So it's always present, marco,it's always present, right.
And so what we learned is thatwe call the third cultural space
, which is not my space or yourspace, but it's the space we
(20:24):
designed together.
We call that the third entity.
It's like the we that deliversthe course, and we found that if
we accept that it's the wethat's delivering the course,
then how do you and I want toshow up in service of that we,
so that the we may deliver themost powerful course possible
(20:46):
and role model, the way for theparticipants that we are
educating?
Marco Blankenburgh (20:51):
Yeah, and I always find that people are
really carefully observing youas a facilitator, especially if
there's two of you in front ofthe room.
So if you don't quote, unquote,practice what you preach, then
Absolutely yeah, and people aresmart.
Oh yes.
Linda Berlot (21:10):
People are smart and they see everything and so
if there is a little bit of achallenge, they will feel it and
sense it.
I think the magic of theco-delivery is really carefully
designing and redesigning andcontinuously raising issues of
diversity that emerge so that wemay realign.
(21:31):
So there's that word againalignment.
It's not agreement.
It's very different toagreement.
It's truly finding the placewhere we can align and move
forward from yeah, yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (21:45):
Now, we both have done a lot of reading on
different methods and differentways of doing things.
Um, and we were part ofnetworks, so you're part of the
knowledge works global networkwith people in 55 countries.
You're part of the orsk network, which is growing.
It's spanning the globe.
Now, one thing that that I I'malways amazed by is that some
(22:08):
people think that you can designa solution in one country and
then, uh, you know, franchise itout or ship it out.
You know it's globalannouncements and from now on,
we're going to do things thisway.
And I came across a really cutearticle profound article, but
the title is very cute.
He calls it the elephant on theplane, and he had a really nice
(22:30):
Photoshop picture where he wastrying to stuff an elephant on
the plane to fly to anothercountry, and the symbolism
behind it was you know, we haveall these methods that we design
in one place.
It was you know, we have allthese methods that we design in
one place, and either because weare an authoritative voice or
because we have the power in theorganization, because we're
(22:51):
either a center of excellence orwe're part of the global HR
team or the global diversityteam at the headquarters of the
firm or the organization.
And then we see these methodsdrift into faraway places and
then people scratch their headsand say, what do we do with this
?
Um, how do we, how do weapproach that?
(23:13):
How do you and I both have seenthose methods drift into
different places, sort of theelephant on the plane, uh, drama
, what have you seen?
And how do we start to becomemore interculturally intelligent
about all of this?
Because we need to seesolutions.
But stuffing the elephant onthe plane and then taking it to
(23:34):
faraway places is notnecessarily the way to go.
Linda Berlot (23:38):
I can't tell you how many HR teams I have worked
with across organizations thatcomplain about this.
Right, they say you know, buthead office is sending us this
policy, this is how we have toexecute it, and then it doesn't
work.
Right, the elephant can't justbe stuffed on the plane and I
think, well, it's that.
(24:01):
Go global, think local.
And what that means for me isthat align around the intention
of the policy what do you wantto achieve?
But then trust the systems inthe diverse lands to come up
with solutions that they can own.
So trust that the system isinnately intelligent, creative
(24:23):
and they will come up withsolutions around diversity that
work for them and will give youthe result that you're looking
for.
If you want to cookie cut astamp, it won't work because it
won't be relevant, it may nothonor the local deities, it may
not be culturally appropriate.
You know you, you miss, youwould be missing a lot of
(24:46):
perspective that the local teamshave right.
So, um, does that mean we can'tcontrol everything?
Yes, does it mean we have totrust the local teams a lot more
?
Yes, yes, is that scary?
Yes, I'm sure it is.
Yeah.
But it is the only way forward,in my belief.
Marco Blankenburgh (25:07):
So you're raising a number of issues.
You know one of them has to dowith you know you mentioned
think global act local, which ishard to do because if,
especially if you look at itfrom a large global
organization's perspective youdon't know, you can't control,
it's very hard to police whathappens locally.
It's almost more comforting todesign a method and say, okay,
(25:34):
we've got it, absolutely A niceglobal communication strategy
around it and we push it out thedoor.
Global communication strategyaround it and we push it out the
door.
That's almost easier to do thanto start doing what you just
suggested.
It's scary.
Do we have the talent locally?
Can they actually come up withthese localized solutions?
(25:56):
How do you actuallyoperationalize something like
that?
How?
Linda Berlot (26:01):
does it work?
I think the question I alwaysask is how much money are you
willing to throw away?
Marco Blankenburgh (26:06):
Willing to throw away.
Linda Berlot (26:07):
Throw away, because if you push what you
believe is right and it doesn'twork, how much will that cost
you Versus perhaps, implementinga process which might be slower
?
Perhaps implementing a processwhich might be slower because we
may need to educate teams,empower teams, train up teams to
(26:27):
think and be brave enough tospeak up and provide solutions.
So it might take a littlelonger, but in the end, teams
themselves will come up withsolutions that will work in
their context.
So how do we operationalizethat?
The best way for me is to askthe local teams what's needed,
(26:52):
what's appropriate.
I would say spend more timeupfront asking more questions.
Marco Blankenburgh (26:55):
Yeah, you mentioned earlier on.
You know there might be apolicy or there might be a
desired objective that anorganization sets.
It could be to do with gender,it could be to do with other
versions of diversity, it couldbe the way they recruit local
talent, et cetera, et cetera.
But you mentioned, you knowthere is the policy or the
(27:17):
desired outcome, but there isthe intent behind it.
So it seems you're saying focusmore on the intent.
Is the intent behind it?
So it seems you're saying focusmore on the intent than the
how-to and if the intent isclear, then figure out the
how-to.
Local Is that?
Linda Berlot (27:32):
the direction you wanna go.
I think so.
So be clear on the what and thewhy, and then let them figure
out the how Right, becauseyou'll get your result.
It might look different indifferent countries, but the
outcome will be what you want.
Marco Blankenburgh (27:47):
It almost sounds like if that's the way to
go, then from a global if youhave a global organization point
of view they need to be morecoach oriented in the way they
navigate how things are globallydone in different locations.
Maybe more coaching skills forpeople who are at these global
roles.
Linda Berlot (28:07):
I think so so well , the coaching and the education
starts at the globalperspective right, allowing them
to understand that in a worldwith different cultures, the
same solution might not work aworld with different cultures,
the same solution might not work.
And helping them, you know,move away from what they believe
to be right to being morecurious, asking more questions,
(28:29):
the ability to ask morequestions, and accept that
different isn't wrong, it's justdifferent.
And if I hold that to be true,how do I challenge my own
beliefs and then get curiousabout what's being said?
Challenge my own beliefs andthen get curious?
about what's being said.
That will allow me to trustmore, but there might be more
skills and education that'sneeded on the ground.
Marco Blankenburgh (28:50):
Absolutely.
We're talking about skills andeducation.
Some of the people in ournetwork have said well,
sometimes people want to do toomuch too fast.
Either it's to do with the lawthe law dictates that we need to
have a percentage of certaintypes of diversity, so we need
(29:12):
to hit that percentage asquickly as possible or there's
been a legal fallout.
Legal fallout Typically it'srelated to racism, nasty
stereotypes, popping upunconscious bias, taking
organizations into the wrongdirection.
So there's that trigger andthen they say, okay, now we need
(29:35):
to do something about it and weneed to follow the directives
from above.
And then people push that outthe door and then it quite
frequently has a negative impact.
One of our facilitators he sayshe's often seen and this was
within the North Americancontext and he says often
(29:58):
programs like that.
The way they impact theparticipants is fight or freeze.
And he says we've beenbrainstorming about finding
solutions.
How do you get to a point wherethese programs become fun?
The coaching journeys becomefun.
They are relevant in the localcontext.
(30:19):
People walk away from them notwith their hairs up and emotions
all over the place, and so I'mdone with this and I'm
frustrated about it.
How do you get back to reallythe joy of exploring diversity,
the joy of building culturetogether.
How do you do it?
Linda Berlot (30:38):
I think it's really important to provide
people with a positiveexperience, to move away from
finger pointing and findingvarious groups wrong, because
we're all right and we're alsoall wrong.
In OSC we have, you know,everybody is right partially,
and the opposite of that is alsotrue right.
And so if we can create anenvironment which is fun, and so
if we can create an environmentwhich is fun, it's powerful.
(31:03):
People feel like their voice isvalued when they speak.
They feel heard, they feelunderstood and at the same time,
they're learning to challengetheir own mindsets, challenge
their own perspectives.
They get taught questioningtechniques or they get taught
tools to really listen to eachother, give each other feedback
(31:23):
in a way that is respectful andnot hurtful.
All of a sudden, people startenjoying what they are doing.
I was working with a very largelocal company fairly recently
and all of the culturalstereotypical behaviors were
present.
All of the culturalstereotypical behaviors were
(31:46):
present.
I had lots of choices.
I could have got upset, I couldhave put my foot down, I could
have got to a more schoolteacher-ish approach, but I
didn't.
I chose to step intorelationship and I designed the
workshop.
Not the tools and skills,because those had been agreed to
up front, but I designed withthe participants.
How did we want to create thisday that we had together?
(32:09):
What would work in terms oftimings, checking your phones,
walking in and out?
How do we want to be around allof that?
And they truly came to the party.
They were present.
The disruptors became mybiggest allies, you know.
Afterwards, in a way it pleasedme but also broke my heart a
little bit, because they came tome and said this was the best
(32:32):
course we've ever attended.
We walked in here thinking I'veattended so many of these
leadership development courses,what on earth can this lady
teach me?
But they felt that we had putsome very applicable tools in
their hands.
We'd given them skills whichwere relationship skills so that
they could take not just intheir teams as leaders, but also
(32:56):
in their families, in theirsocial groups, in all of their
environments.
So they learned in a fun,engaging environment.
No one was made to feel wrongedin any way and we put usable
tools in their hands.
So it wasn't theoretic basedthere was very little theory, if
(33:17):
you will.
So they walked out knowing whatto do next, if you will, very
applicable, and they loved that.
Marco Blankenburgh (33:25):
I'm picking up on something you say, because
I think it's important thatwhat you give people is not just
applicable at work, and that'sin our intercultural agility
work that's always been superimportant for us.
You know, you can use thosetools when you go shopping, when
you're out and about, whenyou're with your loved ones,
(33:46):
with family, and with yourcolleagues and with your clients
.
I think that's also one of theconnect points from the early
days that we both have thatdesire to really give people
relational skills, no matter whothey're connecting with.
Linda Berlot (34:02):
Yeah, Absolutely, and I'm very aware that when I
work with a group of leadersprobably a few months ago I
finished a workshop with youngleaders at this age I'm usually
the oldest person in the room.
But why that's absolutelydelightful for me is that when I
asked the question, how many ofyou have children?
They all put their hands up.
(34:24):
So we're putting these skillsinto mothers and fathers hands
leaders, of course and they'regoing home and teaching these
skills to their children.
So it's got a it's world workin the end has a knock-on effect
.
I can't imagine how different mylife would have been if
somebody had put these tools andskills in my hands when I was
(34:46):
five or six or ten.
My whole life would bedifferent, yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (34:50):
So their first team is their home team.
Yes, absolutely yeah, that'sgreat.
Now we already have you know.
You started to give examplesjust now about you know, the
actual creation of culture.
You say relationship isimportant, but ultimately it
needs to go somewhere right, soit needs to become so.
(35:11):
This idea of creating culturewe've started saying recently.
You know, every time two humanbeings meet, they are creating
culture.
The question is, how good areyou at doing it?
Or is it just happening to youand you're not in control of it?
You say, oops, what justhappened?
Yeah, you know.
(35:31):
So I love that.
How, how does all the work youdo, how does that sort of
culminate into that and why isit so important?
Linda Berlot (35:40):
Because relationship matters.
In a world that has more andmore challenge and conflict,
relationship and, dare I say,love matters.
And, yeah, something isgenerated.
Two people make eye contact andit's either a project or a baby
, but something is created.
And so we focus people on beingconscious and intentional about
(36:02):
the relationships they want tocreate.
And that's why cultural agilityis so important, Because we're
not just coming together I meanteams come together to produce
something, a project, and as acouple, we come together too.
But how do we come together?
How do we produce that project?
And we know that the morepositivity there is in a team
(36:26):
meaning not rah, rah, rah,happiness but the more positive
we feel about working together,the more safe I feel when
working with you, the more trustthat's born between us, the
more I can feel safe to fail andthen pick myself up and
continue to work.
So the more positive a teamfeels, the more productive they
(36:49):
will be, and people of diversecultures feel safe when they
feel heard, seen and understood.
That's why we want team membersto be conscious and intentional
about the dynamics they arecreating together.
Marco Blankenburgh (37:06):
Now, you've already mentioned a number of
ingredients that you sort of use.
So, if you think about yourwork as putting a beautiful meal
together, you've mentioned anumber of ingredients, but also,
just for our audience maybe,what are your key ingredients?
If you think about working witha team, what makes a beautiful
(37:27):
meal?
Linda Berlot (37:28):
That's such a big question.
To start off, I like tosprinkle in a good amount of
powerful questions and I teachthe team, or coach the team, to
be curious about each other, soto challenge their perspectives.
We all make judgments andchallenging my perspective means
(37:50):
not assuming that my judgmentis right, but going out and
checking and being curious andaccepting that that could be
your truth.
Very often I believe my way isright and therefore you are
wrong and that's what causes theconflict.
Right, but if I can accept,well, my way is right and
somehow you're also right.
So being curious around thatand then helping the team to
(38:12):
design how they want to bearound that, how do we move
forward, accepting that both ofthose need to exist somehow in
the way forward?
Marco Blankenburgh (38:24):
Maybe just to comment on that, because I
think that's important in ourworld, that it is actually very
possible to be in relationshipand have a very different
perspective on things, and Ifind that the media at the
moment, some politicians, somecultures, seem to say no, no, no
, that's not possible.
If people think different fromyou, you disconnect, you find
(38:46):
people who think like you whichyou seem to say no, that's
actually.
I want to pursue the opposite.
Linda Berlot (38:53):
I think there is so much at the moment that's
creating division out in theworld the media, social media,
the news everything's creatingdivision and accentuating the
division.
It's easier to be withlike-minded individuals because
there are commonly understoodnorms which we can quickly align
(39:14):
around.
But it doesn't mean that ifwe're different, we can't get
along and create strong,powerful, connected
relationships.
I we can't get along and createstrong, powerful, connected
relationships.
I think we can, but we have tobe curious and accept that there
is diversity, to talk aboutthat diversity, not just ignore
it.
So, for example, staying awayfrom comments like I don't see
(39:34):
the diversity, we're all thesame, but when you say that
you're actually marginalizing adiversity piece, so name it and
get curious about it and thenbuild a relationship that is
inclusive of all of thosediversity pieces.
Marco Blankenburgh (39:50):
So what are some other ingredients in your
beautiful tasty meal?
Linda Berlot (39:56):
I like to encourage people to turn towards
each other, not away from eachother, and that's challenging
sometimes.
So staying away fromcommunication pieces that are
disrespectful Disrespectful inall cultures but learning what
respectful communication soundsand looks like in different
cultures.
And so, for me, communicationis key so that we can fight
(40:19):
right.
So, for me, communication iskey so that we can fight right.
Have fights that, you know,don't upset or offend, but allow
us to stay connected.
I was 40 when I learned thatyou can be angry with someone
and fight and still berespectful.
I didn't know that before.
I thought fighting was all outwar and it was important to win,
(40:41):
and, of course, you don't winat all right.
Marco Blankenburgh (40:46):
You just create division and in the end…
it deteriorates very fast whenit becomes personal.
Linda Berlot (40:49):
Right, yeah, right .
So teaching each other totruly… Teaching team members to
truly hear each other.
Marco Blankenburgh (40:55):
This is also very, very key and respecting
what I'm hearing, even though Imight hold a very different
opinion, how do you work withleaders, because I know leaders
play a key role, but how do youallow them to be part of what
you're trying to accomplish?
Linda Berlot (41:11):
Very important question.
So often we get called to thetable and the leader says coach,
my team, they are the issue.
So the first is an educationalpiece that you are part of the
dynamic.
Each one of you plays a verydifferent role, but an integral
role.
It's that puzzle piece.
So the leader must be in and Istart to work with the leader,
(41:35):
upfront role modeling how Iwould like for us to then be
with the team as a whole, sodesigning with the leader how do
they want to be with me and mewith them?
How do we want to partnertogether?
How do we want to work throughour differences or our
challenges?
(41:58):
Probably my most challengingconversation was with a team
leader.
This one happened to be a man.
He had a very strong work ethic, was very dominant and felt
very uncomfortable, beingvulnerable, okay.
And so there was a design piecearound that and he kept
speaking over me andinterrupting me.
So I kind of had to meet himeye to eye and say I'm driving
(42:18):
this bus and although heacknowledged that that was a
tough conversation to have, hewas thankfully able to surrender
to my leadership in that momentand that was a great learning
point for that leader, becausethat dynamic?
Well, there are parallelprocesses happening all the time
.
Right, that dynamic?
Well, there are parallelprocesses happening all the time
(42:39):
.
So that dynamic was playingitself out with the team.
Except they had a lot more tolose by standing up to him.
So what happened between us nowcould be role modeled and I
could empower him to lead thatpiece in the team because he
needed that and it gave the teammembers hope.
Marco Blankenburgh (43:01):
They saw it happen in front of them Right
and it gave the team leader anew platform to move forward in
a different way.
Linda Berlot (43:07):
Yeah, the magic was in that was that this leader
was extraordinary because theywere really there to learn and
the vulnerability came throughfrom the very beginning and that
allowed the team to bevulnerable.
It allowed the team to see thatperson and not just the mask
(43:28):
that they'd been wearing yeahand it was extremely powerful.
They walked away.
The engagement scores in theorganization shot through the
roof just because the of thatwork that we did in that
multicultural team and broughtthe leaders as a leadership team
much closer together.
Marco Blankenburgh (43:48):
We alluded here and there in this
conversation to the challengesof the world that we live in.
When you think about your workand working with teams, working
with leaders, working withorganizations what are some of
the most important challengesthat you would say, yeah, that's
what people need to really payattention to.
Conflict Okay.
Linda Berlot (44:15):
Fighting right is for me key across cultures.
Right is, for me, key acrosscultures.
Fighting right, for me, meansbeing passionate and unfiltered
and respectful and allowing allvoices to be heard and valued.
Everybody has a right to speakand be heard, and not dominating
(44:37):
the conversation and believingthat my way is the right way.
Marco Blankenburg (44:41):
Unfortunately , we don't live in a world with
a lot of good examples.
Linda Berlot (44:44):
No, you just have to listen to the news, right?
Yeah, I've become a little bitalmost intolerant of what I hear
in the news and at the sametime, that drives me even more
to do the work that we do, marco, because I truly believe
conflict is healthy.
(45:05):
We don't want vanilla and wedon't want cookie cutter of each
other.
It's so precious to be diverseand the only way that we can
work through the challengesbetween us is to have conflict.
But if you view conflict as adoorway, or a dream door, to
something different wanting toemerge and we believe that and
(45:26):
we stay in the fight, but have aclean fight or fight right we
can create something differentin the world.
Marco Blankenburgh (45:35):
So learning to be okay with tension,
conflict, difference of opinion,but also having the skills to
find that door and walk throughit together.
What else do you see in theworld?
What's important to payattention to?
Linda Berlot (45:52):
For me, some of the news in the world makes me
feel like there are impossiblesituations, right, some of the
news pieces that are emergingfeel gridlocked, right, and we
know that if we try and resolveconflict at the level that it's
(46:12):
playing out, we can't unlockthat gridlock.
Marco Blankenburgh (46:15):
It's too complex, too many people, too
many parties involved, etc.
Linda Berlot (46:19):
That's right.
The key to resolving gridlockis to going back to how do I
feel, what's emerging in me interms of emotion, and then
re-dreaming up that story.
Right, re-dreaming up the story.
If I rethink the story of whatI'm feeling in a different way,
(46:42):
the way I behave will bedifferent.
And if we do that together, wecan start to unlock some of
these terrible, impossiblesituations that are emerging in
the world.
But to do that, we have toaccept that if I'm feeling
frustrated and you're feelingfrustrated, it might be for two
very different reasons, it'strue, and I bear some
(47:04):
responsibility of how you'refeeling, and vice versa.
Marco Blankenburgh (47:08):
Yeah, the thing to that point.
I think there's a lot ofdilemmas we face in the world
that are really going to be withus for the foreseeable future.
Be with us for the foreseeablefuture and the illusion of let's
solve this problem or let'sovercome this challenge is
(47:29):
something that I have to.
I naturally want to solve theproblem and move on, but a lot
of these dilemmas you can'tsolve.
You just have to collaborateand connect and find ways to
navigate it more effectively.
And connect and find ways tonavigate it more effectively.
So doing what you're saying,doing that at a more granular
level, as opposed to allfocusing on the big macro issues
(47:49):
.
One of the issues that's thrownat everyone, of course, is the
whole technology.
Some people say industrialrevolution 4.0 is already passé.
5.0 has already started, withAI taking incredible flight,
sometimes uncontrolled.
The world of work is changingrapidly.
(48:10):
What do you see with teams andhow do people prepare for all
these changes?
All this friction, all thisconflict how do people prepare
for that?
How do you work with teams too?
Linda Berlot (48:22):
It's true, marco, the leaders that we work with
are complaining a lot about thepace of change and the type of
change that's happening.
We I mean as a Generation Xdare I say that in our lifetime
how much change we've seen andit feels like it's accelerating
(48:45):
right.
So we've got so much change andso much diversity that we could
never have dreamt of.
So equipping leaders tonavigate this is important.
Ai is emerging quickly, but onething that machines cannot
teach us is how to be human.
So my belief is and I guessthat's one of the drivers why
(49:06):
I'm driven to doing this quickerand quicker with larger and
larger groups my belief is thatAI can't teach us how to be in
relationship, how to be human.
How to be human, it's theability that we will have to
(49:37):
stay human and connect at arelationship level, which is
going to be more and moreimportant, learning skills to
collaborate better and becreative and access our
creativity.
You know, um, how do we haveempathy for each other, right?
How do we really come from aplace of love and one where I
want to hear your point of view,where I can suspend my point of
view and then champion yourpoint of view.
You know, one of my teammembers the other day laughed
because they said to me how dowe get to this place where you
(50:00):
had one point of view, point ofview A, I had point of view B
and by the end of it you areholding my point of view and I
was holding yours.
How did that swap?
And I said that is the crux ofhumanness, of conscious and
intentional relationships, wherewe bring love and empathy to
(50:20):
the table, because I care aboutyou and your point of view and
vice versa, that I want to finda way forward together and I
think machines can't take thataway from us.
Marco Blankenburgh (50:32):
Some people might say well, that's all you
know.
It sounds really almost utopian.
How does that allow us to be amore successful organization?
So what have you seen?
Linda Berlot (50:48):
Because at the moment, we still have humans
working in our organizations.
It's the humans, who have avery human experience, that are
getting the work done.
We're not at the place whereit's just machines and one day I
might be eating my own hat butat the moment we still have
humans, and so it's important toown our humanness and to help
(51:11):
organizations do the same.
Marco Blankenburgh (51:13):
Yeah, it's a future that we don't quite know
what it's going to look like.
But, yeah, a lot of the even ifjust reading lot of the, even
if just reading up on this theskills we need for the future.
That which is now is really allabout some of the ones you just
mentioned collaboration,holding conflict much more
loosely instead of tightly beingin relationship with people who
(51:37):
think different from us,connected to people who are more
divergent and, as a result,coming up with better solutions,
better creativity so all ofthose are almost must-haves and
creating team cultures wherethey can flourish.
Absolutely, I think it's superimportant and obviously I can
(51:58):
see that you're passionate aboutyour work.
You love what you do and it'salmost dangerous in today's
world to ask where are you goingto be a few years from now?
Would you still be doing thiswork?
What are you hoping for?
Linda Berlot (52:12):
Sometimes I think how nice it would be to be
sitting on a beach reading abook and living my life out in
that way, but I know that not tobe true for myself, or not for
very long or not for very long.
Or not for very long, especiallybecause of what you've just
said.
For me, my work is not a job.
It's almost like a vocation.
I am driven to create morepeace in the world, one team at
(52:34):
a time.
If I can help teams fight rightor be in better relationship,
help teams fight right or be inbetter relationship, then I will
feel like my work is done.
My work is valuable and thereis no end to that.
There is no end to supportingor coaching teams to learn how
to be more empathetic, morecollaborative and to be more
(52:58):
respectful towards each othereven during conflict.
More collaborative and and tobe more respectful towards each
other even during conflict.
So I don't see my work maybeslowing down, but not ever
ending.
Yeah, well.
Marco Blankenburgh (53:07):
Thank you so much for today's conversation.
Thank you, um, and if if you'velistened to this conversation
today and you want to connectwith linda, her contact details
will be in the notes section ofthis podcast.
So connect with her, connectwith the Berlotte Group team,
and I'm sure that your team oryour leadership situation can be
(53:29):
equally impacted by how Lindaengages with teams.
So thank you for joining on thepodcast.
It's always great to unpackthese conversations and we will
continue to work together.
Linda Berlot (53:43):
We certainly will, Marco.
Thank you for inviting me onthe podcast.
It's always delightful.
I love these conversationsbetween us.
We generate a lot of sparkinessbetween us and I always enjoy
that.
Marco Blankenburgh (53:54):
Thank you.
Thank you for listeningeveryone.
Linda Berlot (53:57):
Thank you everyone .
Marco Blankenburgh (54:00):
Thank you so much for joining us for this
episode of the Cultural AgilityPodcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,share it with someone.
The best way to help us out isby leaving a review on your
favorite podcast app or channel,or forward and recommend this
podcast to people around you.
As always, if any of the topicswe discuss today intrigue you,
(54:22):
you will find links to articlesdiscussing them in greater depth
in the podcast notes.
If you would like to learn moreabout intercultural
intelligence and how you canbecome more culturally agile,
you can find more informationand hundreds of articles at
knowledgeworkscom and hundredsof articles at knowledgeworkscom
.
A special thanks to JasonCarter for composing the music
(54:47):
on this podcast and to the wholeKnowledgeWorks team for making
this podcast a success.
Thank you, nita Rodriguez, araAzizbakian, rajitha Raj and
thanks to Vip and George foraudio production, rosalind Raj
for scheduling and Caleb Straussfor marketing and helping
produce this podcast.
Thanks to Vip and George foraudio production, rosalind Raj
for scheduling and Caleb Straussfor marketing and helping
produce this podcast.
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