Intercultural Consulting with George Kesselaar

Send us a text

Join George Kesselaar and Marco as they explore the complexities of intercultural consulting and how to successfully facilitate positive behavior change in people in this global world.

George Kesselaar is a seasoned corporate transformation specialist with 25 years of executive level experience in Big 4 consulting firms and deep experience in managing strategic change, human resources transformation, high-performance learning journeys, and executive compensation in Europe, Central Asia, the Middle East, and Southern Africa.

Currently, he is a PhD candidate at the Graduate School of Business of the University of Cape Town, investigating antecedents to change supportive behavior during large-scale organizational change interventions through worldviews.

You can get in touch with George Kesselaar at: [e-mail].

In this episode you will learn -- 

• How to build a community where people 'can find one another'
• How to use culturally agile consulting to frame solutions in a way that allows those solutions to succeed in different environments
• How deep worldview structures impact change management processes and how an inter-cultural intelligence framework gives a neutral language to deepen conversations about cultural landscapes

 | Articles: 

-- Culture Made Practical: Self-Cultural Analysis (http://kwx.fyi/self-cultural-analysis)
-- Creating Messaging that Resonates Across Cultures (http://kwx.fyi/messaging-across-cultures)
-- Better Conversations, Smarter Questions, and More Listening (http://kwx.fyi/better-conversations)

Psst... Listen all the way to the end for a special easter egg.

-- Looking for a book to take your cultural agility to the next step, check out the Ultimate Intercultural Question Book brought to you by KnowledgeWorkx.com

Episode Transcript

George Kesselaar (00:00):
Sometimes the differences that we have what we
often refer to as you know, asintercultural differences are
often just misunderstandings.
These are a layers that we'veplaced over ourselves in our
understanding of one another,that are often incorrect, that
are often misunderstood. And ifwe can peel off those layers,

(00:21):
and really get to what is at thebottom of who we really are, we
start discovering that we allvery similar

Marco Blankenburgh (00:39):
Welcome to the cultural agility podcast,
where we explore the stories ofsome of the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world, to help you
become culturally agile, andsucceed in today's culturally
complex world. I'm your host,Marco Blankenburg, international
director of knowledge works,where every day we help

(00:59):
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world. Welcometo today's podcast, today is a
special recording because with afriend, colleague, fellow
consultant, fellow facilitator,and we've had the chance to work

(01:20):
together on and off for the lastmore than 20 years. I think it
is George, I don't rememberexactly when we first met, but
it's over 20 years ago. Now.
Indeed, in these hours, it'swonderful to have you on this
episode, to talk about the worldof consulting the world of
global consulting, interculturalconsulting. I think it's a

(01:41):
fascinating subject. And there'sso many lessons that you have
learned that I believe is worthyof passing on to our audience
today. So thank you for joining.

George Kesselaar (01:54):
It is a pleasure. It is a pleasure.
Thank you, Marco. I've beenlooking forward to this
opportunity to spend some timewith you this afternoon. Yes.

Marco Blankenburgh (02:01):
So George, you originally hail from South
Africa, we met for the firsttime in the UAE and Dubai. But I
don't want to put words in yourmouth. So be great if you can
introduce yourself to ourlisteners today.

George Kesselaar (02:18):
Thanks, Marco.
Yeah, that's this is always aninteresting one to introduce
yourself in a few seconds, whichis a tough one. But I'll try. As
you mentioned, maka, we met inthe UAE, which was an important
step in my life journey. As Ioriginally come from South
Africa, currently living in CapeTown, and I spent my formative

(02:41):
years in Johannesburg, in themilitary, then had the
opportunity to move out to theMiddle East, and engage with
knowledge works, get involved insome academia, be involved in
the consulting industry. And Ithink over the years, I've been

(03:04):
very much flowing in between thetwo. So having the opportunity
to invest in individuals from anacademic point of view, but then
also to contribute toorganizations and their success
as a management consultant. Soyeah, so for the last 25 years,
you know, being involved in thatflow, and coming off a strong

(03:26):
base of, of having spent abouteight years in the military as
well in the Navy. So I'm an exnaval officer. And, and that's,
that's also, interestinglyenough, it was the launching
pad, for me as an organizationalconsultant, particularly given

(03:46):
many of the changes that theSouth African military was
experiencing in the 90s that Iwas part of. So yeah, in a
nutshell, that's, that's whereI'm from and what I've done so
far,

Marco Blankenburgh (04:01):
coming from South Africa, some people call
it the rainbow nation. Otherpeople question that label. But
being born and raised in SouthAfrica, what what were some of
your earliest interculturalexperiences growing up there?

George Kesselaar (04:17):
Well, I think for the for every South African
that is different. It reallydepends on which area you're
from whether you grew up in amore rural context or whether it
was in a more urban city lifekind of environment. I had the
opportunity of being involved inboth, but I think probably my

(04:38):
most important formative yearswere in my my later teens, early
adulthood, being involved as auniversity student in, you know,
in the change that was takingplace in South Africa in the
early 90s. I had the privilegeof being involved In the youth

(05:00):
movement of one of the, one ofthe the unique political parties
at the time, called theindependent party. And I
remember being part of a firstyouth group that had a trip down
to Cape Town, at the time, atthe time, I was studying at
Randolph County University,which was a very traditional

(05:20):
national socialist, almosteducational platform, and
failing to cope down and workingwith other youth, young adults,
and to start to think about whatwould the new South Africa look
like? And what role can we playas young South Africans in that
in that you said, Africa, andthat was followed by a time in

(05:44):
the military. And I think thisis where my, my intercultural
experience really startedgrowing, in that, at the time, I
happen to get involved into aprocess of integration of
different armed forces, as youwould know, from the past, that
a South Africa has, in the pastwas a deeply divided society,

(06:06):
and sometimes, unfortunately,still is. So to answer your
question about the rainbownation, I think we would like to
be, and I think many of us tryand be, but often they are, you
know, severe obstacles thatneeds to be surmounted. And we
work hard to do so. And at thattime, I think was a good example
where you had different armedforces, what was known in the

(06:29):
past as a South African DefenceForce, and controversies were
that many might have heard ofthe Pan African National
Congress, these were what we inthose days would call non
statutory forces, or what manywould have called that those
days, terrorist organizationsand actually now integrate with
various in very differentcultures, different political

(06:51):
agendas, highly raciallyfragmented and polarized. And,
you know, I was involved in atime where individuals that were
literally a few months earlier,were facing one another over a
barrel of a gun at you nowsuddenly started working
together, sitting next to oneanother in the same office. And

(07:12):
I think, you know, following onfrom my experience at
university, this was really atime where I had to start
thinking about, well, in thisplace where there are so many
people that are so different.
And but yes, so similar,strangely enough, and the
similarity started coming out,when I was involved in a program
that was called thepsychological integration

(07:35):
program. So there is a veryearly form of ici development,
and that was taking place inSouth Africa. And the purpose of
that program was to try and findcommon ground amongst all of
these, you know, culturallydiverse individuals. And what we
were trying to do, using variouspsychological techniques was to

(07:57):
create a platform where peoplecould communicate. And it was so
interesting, it was a week longprogram, and during that week,
you know, you would visitdifferent military bases. And,
you know, in some cases, theywere in a some of those those
military bases were located inin highly volatile areas. I can

(08:18):
think of one example, not toofar from where I live, we ran a
program in the collegia area,where the traditional what was
called the colored cops werelocated. I think, if I remember
correctly, the 15th InfantryDivision. And at this, during
this program, you know, you hadall sergeant majors that were

(08:40):
either from controversies wereor from the old ACDS, sitting
across on another table, andliterally wanting to tear one
another's eyes out, you know, inthis conversation. And what was
interesting enough,traditionally, in the military,
on a Wednesday afternoon, atleast in the South African
military, there's an opportunityfor people to come together to

(09:03):
play sports to step away fromthe office. And we use that
Wednesday afternoon on thecourse, to watch a copy of the
recording of the 1995 World Cupwas just recently played. And of
course, wasted Africa won thefinal, which was a great event
for bringing people together.

(09:24):
And, and during this this, thisafternoon, it just seemed that
all these differences, all thistension started disappearing.
People started having a goodtime, and I started talking to
one another, obviously, youknow, infused by the excitement
of having won the World Cup andbeing world champions. And I

(09:46):
remember so vividly. I'm sittingin that room, opposite a guy who
was recently the head of a orthe cheeseless South African
Navy, at that stage lieutenantand him saying to me, Georgia,
have actually I don't know whatall this you know what all
distinction, we're all thisunhappiness is all about it
we're experiencing. Because hesays, you know, you and I are

(10:10):
very similar. And I said, Yeah,I agree, but you told me what do
you why do you say so? And hesays, he said to me, Well, you
know, George, why are we here,you know, we are here to earn a
living, we're here to care forour families, we are here to
have some purpose, God, and allof this other stuff is just
political rhetoric. And it wasduring those types of

(10:33):
conversations, that I think, youknow, the penny dropped for me
that, you know, sometimes the,the differences that we have,
what we often refer to, as, youknow, as intercultural
differences are often justmisunderstandings. These are a
layers that we've placed overourselves in our understanding

(10:56):
of one another, and that areoften incorrect, that are often
misunderstood. And if we canpeel off those layers, and
really get to what is at thebottom of who we really are, we
start discovering that we allvery similar. And from that, you
know, that that's that pace ofsimilarity, of shared interests
of, of shared purpose really,one can then start building

(11:20):
something that is unique, andit's something that leads to,
you know, people being able towork together productively in
harmony and in peace. And thatreally is, you know, I would say
that was the start of myintercultural journey. And what
I've just seen growing from, youknow, from from strength to
strength since then,

Marco Blankenburgh (11:42):
that in and of itself is worth an episode or
maybe even a

George Kesselaar (11:45):
book. Amen.

Marco Blankenburgh (11:50):
So, from there read this fast tracking,
you went into the GCC, the Gulfregion, into the UAE. And that's
where we eventually met. You hadthe opportunity to be part of
some of the earliest groups ofwhere we certify people on
intercultural intelligence or tobecome more culturally agile and

(12:13):
train and coach others to do thesame. What drew you into that?
You know, the stories you justtold, obviously, that's in the
background, creating thegroundswell but what drew you
into ici interculturalintelligence?

George Kesselaar (12:29):
You know, Miko I've always been one that, that,
you know, that believes inmessage. And I believe in like
old King Solomon said, there'snothing new under the sun. And
we do have methodology forthings in life and it helps us
make things easier. And I thinkwhat drew me into the whole in

(12:50):
those days, the ICI culturalagility, as we spoke about
cultural agility in those days,arena was, you know, the idea of
having something that I can use,just to try and explain to
others what I experienced when Iwas in Khayelitsha, right, and

(13:10):
to put some form around that,and to apply psychometrics and
other useful tools, methodologyto make that applicable to
others for others to learn, andto be able to apply it in their
everyday lives, whether that isin a normal relationship, or
whether it is in trying to makean organizational practice work.

(13:34):
So I think that that's what drewme to the ICI model, or the ICI
practice was, here is somethingthat you were describing to me
that was just immediately, youknow, just just landed on me
that resonated with what I feltin my in my heart and in my soul
as being as being a real. Andwhen I then overlaid that on my

(13:55):
experience as a young SouthAfrican in the military and in
the Middle East. And it justmakes so much sense, you know,
the concept of, of being able toaccurately identify what you
seen around you in terms ofothers, to be able to interpret
that correctly, and then to beable to adapt to it. That's what
I saw in Khayelitsha. And whenyou started explaining, and

(14:19):
describing ici to me, I think itjust made perfect sense. And
that's when I got excited, Ithought, well, this is something
if I can learn this, and learnto apply this broadly, that
would really empower my journeyof wanting to help others, you
know, see this light that Ithink was starting to shine in

(14:42):
all aspects of my life but alsothat I really knew and could
understand what's necessary inso many other contexts that I
got involved in.

Marco Blankenburgh (14:51):
As fascinating how you you draw
those two together. On the onehand, there's the method but
there is also your own lifeexperience. And you know with
hunting So as practitionersaround the world, they have gone
through the same experience of,hey, here's a methodology that
makes culture accessible. And ithelps with sense making, but

(15:11):
also, it makes my own story comealive, it creates a lot of
answers, especially the whyanswers, I think, of what we've
gone through and why somethingworked and why something didn't
work. But you already mentionedthat it impacts relationships,
how did it impact you? What whatdid it do for you personally?

George Kesselaar (15:31):
Well, I think Marco, what you probably having,
you know, being being marriagesthat African as well, you know,
that we can be quite stuck inour ways, you know, we are, you
know, Afrikaner Buddha means, asthey say, and, and what I, what
I experienced in starting todevelop as a culturally agile

(15:54):
individual, as a, as a culturallearner, as we would put in
those days, was that I was ableto start shining some light on
to different parts of my life,and in my behavior that I could
identify still being stuck in akind of a negative paradox,
right. And, and through applyingsome of this methodology, some

(16:17):
of these spots that we had beenplaying around with at that
time, I, myself, could reallystep back and say, Hey, I'm
George, you know, you're talkingabout being intellectually
intelligent, you're talkingabout being someone that others
can work with. But you know, inthis specific area of your life,
is this something that reallysupports that? Or is it
something that that you need tobe thinking about? And, and

(16:41):
really interpreting correctlyyourself in terms of how you're
behaving? Before you can imposeyourself on others? Because as
you probably know, from workingwith me, Mater, I can be a bit
of a control freak sometimes.

Marco Blankenburgh (16:56):
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's really interesting,
that idea of you can you canteach a method, but if that
method doesn't come alive, foryou from the inside out, that
you almost, you know, lose yourcredibility.

George Kesselaar (17:12):
Yeah, I think this is very important in the
sense that and maybe, if we gotget the opportunity later, to
talk a little bit about thisconsulting practice, in general,
I think it really comes to thereally heart of how do we make
consulting practice work?
Because I think there are somany methods and so many
consulting solutions out thereand, and coming and having spent

(17:34):
many years within the large, youknow, big four consulting firms
who have exposure to thestrategy firms and boutique
firms, you know, there are somany solutions. And so many of
those solutions, we try andimplement, you know, as is
within a new context, such asthe Malays, for example, GCC,

(17:55):
and then we step away and think,Oh, why doesn't this work? But I
think, and this is really,something that I learned, as I
started to get involved with youfrom an ici perspective is that,
you know, it's almost as if wetried to put a square peg in a
round peg in a round hole, inthat, you know, the, the round

(18:17):
hole of the way in which maybean individual operates within,
you know, I'm gonna show himenvironment, you know, forced
into a square peg of a guiltinnocence consulting solution,
it just creates friction, asopposed to, you know, lasting
lasting solutions and lastingvalue to clients.

Marco Blankenburgh (18:41):
Yeah. And it seems you're raising, in essence
to two issues here. One is, doestrue global best practice really
exist? Because there's lots ofsquare pegs in round holes,
where there's, you know,universally applicable best
practice. And then the otherthing is, you know, how, how can

(19:02):
you consultants move in and outof different cultural contexts
work with people from verydifferent backgrounds? You know,
wouldn't they get lost if theydon't have just one method to
work with? So what's, what's theclassical consulting, we've
cooked up a methodology and we,we saw that methodology all

(19:22):
around the world versus a moreculturally agile consultant, how
would you describe thedifference?

George Kesselaar (19:28):
I think the difference is very much one of
what is, you know, what is thepurpose of what you're trying to
do? You know, I remember usoften having this conversation
as colleagues and you asking mewell, Georgia and to watch and
to watch, are we doing this?
And, and I think that is crucialin a consulting in your
consulting approach is, why areyou doing this? Are you doing

(19:50):
this to merely implement somemethodology that was published
somewhere, or are you doing thisto really help someone to make
you know, a LASIK change. Andwhile I do believe that there is
definitely a wide body ofestablished, recognized, and
very valuable solutions outthere, that you know, a

(20:14):
interculturally, or culturallyagile consultant really is one
that is able to take that, putit in his in his or her back
pocket, and then say, alright,I'm looking at the situation in
front of me, what is it that I'mtrying to achieve? And why am I
trying to achieve this? Sostarting with the second
question, why am I trying toachieve this? The answer needs

(20:36):
to be in order to help theperson that I'm dealing with, in
order to solve their problem asbest or in the best way that
they can possibly do sothemselves. answering the first
question of how am I going to dothis? Well, I need to bring this
established solution that hasbeen a validated and replicated

(20:56):
elsewhere. And I need to saveask myself, well, how can I now
put this into place so that itactually helped this helps this
client of mine to implement thesolution effectively? And this
is where I think culturalagility and intercultural
intelligence comes in. So how doI, how do I help this

(21:16):
individual, for example, andprobably the best way to explain
this is through a story, we wereinvolved in a large
implementation of a new strategyfor the the electricity
generated in Kazakhstan a fewyears ago. And what we were
trying to do was to support thecorporatization process, that

(21:38):
this electricity generator toGog, I think it was called, at
the time, was trying to realizeand the purpose was for them to
then engage fully in supplyingenergy to the EU, etc. So it was
both a major corporatizationprocess but also a major, gotta

(21:58):
change process. And at the time,because Exxon was still moving
out of the old Soviet era, and alot of the mindsets was thought
in all Soviet, large scale,institutional, very slow, moving
very traditional mindsets, andwe had, you know, markets that

(22:20):
these guys now started at havingto compete with an engaging that
we're, you know, there's beennot only ambitious, but we're
also very innovative andadaptable and agile. So changing
the the, you know, the corporateenvironment within Qigong in
order to play with on this inthis new market was quite a
challenge. And I remember,often, at the time, I was

(22:45):
leading the change managementworkstream on this large
initiative as part of one of thebig four firms. And I remember
often going to the boardmeetings where we now had to
present some of our solutionsthat we were developing. And
part of our purpose was tosupport the CEO at the time,

(23:09):
because he was ultimatelyresponsible for making this
work. Right. And I don't knowwhy, but probably because, you
know, I realized that in thisenvironment, creating community
was important. And I often whenI started my part of the

(23:29):
presentation, I started off witha joke. And so we did a number
of these board meetings. And atthe penultimate board meeting,
I, you know, I made mypresentation, and it didn't go
so well that day. So the CEOafterwards asked me, he said to

(23:53):
me, what's your what happened tothe joke? And so I said to you,
well, oh, my apologies. Mr. Ithink his name was Alexandra. I
apologize. I, I just, you know,we were so caught up in the
work, I forgot about a joke. Hesaid, no joke, George. But the
joke was really important.

(24:13):
Because what you were tellingthem was really, you know, it
was very different to what theywere used to, right. And diving
into that solution, even thoughto you, it was straightforward,
and you know, and you had allthe best practice and, you know,
benchmarking all that stuffready. And a really good

(24:34):
explanation of how to make thiswork for them. These guys, you
know, just were not in the frameof mind to be able to absorb and
accept what you were tellingthem. But by adding in this
little piece of joke in thefront, what you did is you when
he recognized you, we'restarting to develop some
community, because we've donethis before. So they now

(24:55):
expected Joseph is going to comeup, he's going to tell a bit of
a joke, and then he's gonna goget into all this change
management stuff, which isimportant for us, you know,
right? Without the joke. Andit's a very simple thing. But
without a joke, it was a lotmore difficult for them to
understand what I was going totry and tell them by telling the
joke up front, what I was doingas I was starting to building in

(25:17):
as to build some community. Andin that community, we could find
one another in many of the thetensions of who's who in the
zoo, as far as the meeting isconcerned, or who's right and
who's wrong. All that kind ofmoved away a little bit. During
the time while we were laughingabout this ridiculous no joke

(25:38):
that I might have inserted in mypresentation. But very
important, because I did that,you know, it allowed for this
methodology to work. And I thinkthere are many other examples
that I go into. But I mean, it'sjust one small way. I think that
you as a, as a culture, we livein an agile consultant can add
things into the way in which youintroduce best practice, to make

(26:01):
best practice work, even thoughyou're not changing the practice
at all, you're just changing theway in which you are delivering
that practice.

Marco Blankenburgh (26:09):
And what you're alluding to is really
that idea that interculturalconsulting is both 100%
relational and 100%.
Transactional, it's not justabout the method, and the
packaging is very much to dowith how the people will respond
to it. The very often they theyquote, unquote, by you as a
person first before they'rewilling to embrace your method.

(26:32):
And knowing how to do that, inmultiple contexts is so
incredibly important, and alsoreally hard to do. Because the
lessons never stop, right.

George Kesselaar (26:45):
Yeah, yep. And yeah, as you know, probably
better than I do, you know,using the approach that I've
just explained, doesn't work inall contexts, right? Exactly.
I've been in in other contexts,you know, with organizations in
Europe, for example, where thatwould have been seen as as
highly inappropriate. But thenagain, they weren't, there are

(27:06):
other methods that one can use.
To make that work.

Marco Blankenburgh (27:10):
You're instrumental in in getting our
consulting our interculturalconsulting methodology,
documented, and we are stillusing that today, it has grown
even after you moved on tobigger playing field. And it was
in the beginning, I was like,okay, is this you know, where's

(27:33):
this going? And now looking backmore than 20 years, I'm still
forever grateful that youstarted that process, but to our
audience, explain the forDummies version, so to speak,
what is an interculturalintelligence consulting
methodology? What how is itdifferent from, you know, run of
the mill, regular consulting, soto speak?

George Kesselaar (27:56):
Michael, I think what one needs, the way
is, you know, the, probably theeasiest way to think about this
is, if you think about an icecream, you know, an ice cream
cone, you have this nice, sugaryKern in this nice big blob of
gelato on top of it, that'sconsulting, right. And it's
really attractive to many of ourclients, especially when they're

(28:18):
in trouble. Because, you know,here we come, we bring something
that hopefully will be tastythat their employees and their
shareholders etc, will eat up,and then we'll help them to
solve and, you know, some formof problem that they have, I
think what interculturallyintelligent consulting is, is
really that, you know, thatsugar cone with a nice big blob

(28:39):
of chocolate covering over it,right. And, and what we do is,
if you take, let's take, forexample, a standard big for
consulting process, right, whereyou know, you're going into a
situation, you'll do some formof pre analysis, understand the
current state, then applyingsome benchmarking, in order to

(29:03):
conduct a gap analysis, thendevelop a number of solutions,
proposed solutions, whetherthose are solutions in terms of
process, in terms of structurein terms of technology, these
days, very often technologybecause of the whole development
in an agile technology, etc,etc. And, and then some form of

(29:25):
an implementation plan. Andhopefully, if you're lucky, you
can walk away before theimplementation starts, because
then it's not your problem if itdoesn't work, right. So that's
the traditional kind of fourstage process that that
consultants typically use. Ithink what makes the the, the
ICI way of doing it differentlyis, if that's the ice cream and

(29:47):
the ice cream cone, thechocolate is taking a step back
and during each of thosedifferent phases, applying a
different lens and then to sayright As we do the current state
analysis, but what do we need tounderstand not only about the
organization, but also about thepeople within that organization,

(30:11):
how they view the world, youknow, how they engage with life,
culturally. But what do we needto understand about that, so
that both, we can bothunderstand what they're all
about. And very importantly,when we communicate to them,
what we found that wecommunicate that in a way that

(30:32):
you know, that they canunderstand themselves. And when
I say that, I mean, not, youknow, conceptually, but at a
heart level, because often theissue is not knowing what I'm
saying, it's feeling what I'msaying, it doesn't resonate with
me what you're trying to explainto me that it's not a case of
does it make sense thatsomething can make sense

(30:53):
perfectly. But if it doesn'tresonate with you, it's not
going to be something that youcan implement or use? Right? So
I would say, that's the majordifference. And it sounds a
superficial, very easy thing todo, but it's not. And I think,
you know, some of themethodology that we've developed
over the years, really allowsyou to take a step back, apply

(31:16):
that lens, and then apply bestpractices in a way that
resonates with the heart, andtherefore is, you know, easier
to implement.

Marco Blankenburgh (31:25):
Now, in our network, we have a number of
people that makes it Yeah,absolutely, absolutely. We have
a number of people in ournetwork who have actually said,
I joined the ICI network,because in some of the firms,
I'm not relationally allowed toget involved the client, because
everything the chocolate on topof the ice cream is really very

(31:48):
relational. Right. So it is, italmost is a little bit
counterculture within theconsulting world.

George Kesselaar (31:59):
It is lacO it is. And, you know, I've also
often set in in many not onlymeetings in planning, and large
scale, accounting engagements,where we need to put strategies
together to either win work, ormake large engagements
successful. But even, you know,being involved over many years,

(32:23):
in the training of consultants,with some of the big four firms,
I had the privilege of running,what we would call the, you
know, the basic consultingtraining courses or manager
training courses. And even inthose courses being told, Look,
we are here to delivermethodology to deliver

(32:46):
solutions, they are clients,that methodology is key, right?
So we are not here to adapt, weare here to bring these
individuals or theseorganizations, really find
solutions that work. But thenthroughout the conversation, as
you start talking aboutexperiences that that many of my
colleagues have had, then italways comes out that you know,

(33:08):
what, actually, I had tocompletely redesign and re
reimagine this solution that wasgiven to me from our method set,
because it had to, you know, didnot wasn't applicable to my
client. And, and then I alwayssit back and I say to me,
myself, you know, this is sosad. Because as a firm, you

(33:31):
know, the big four, the strategyhouses, they spend millions on
developing methodology. Andthere is nothing wrong with that
methodology. My my take on thissituation is that you don't have
to adjust the methodology,you've got to be able to have
the methodology resonate withthe clients. All right. There's,

(33:54):
let's take something classic,like for example, the balanced
scorecard, right? There'snothing wrong with the balanced
scorecard. How can us though,talk about the balanced
scorecard, to make sure thatthat resonates with someone that
is looking at it from a, youknow, what we would call a guilt
innocence point of view, ormindset, which, which probably

(34:14):
is easier because you've got allthese different categories?
These buckets are things thatyou measure, and you either
measure up to it or you don't,right. More importantly, how
how, how do you make it resonateto someone that doesn't look at
the world in terms of, you know,buckets of things that I
mentioned, that I measure up toor not, but rather, that looks

(34:35):
at the world in terms of groupsof people that I relate to, that
I need to, you know, that I needto either satisfy or honor. It's
a completely different approach.
So it's not about changing themethodology. It's about how do
you take that methodology andtalk that methodology through in
a way that can resonate in thehearts of the clients and I know

(34:56):
this probably sounds very, youknow, touchy feely to many of
the hardcore consulting types,but it has to resonate, you
know, we always talk aboutresonating, but resonate with
the heart of the client. So yep,

Marco Blankenburgh (35:11):
which also is linked to, you know, having
an impact that lasts. Because ifthat doesn't happen, I've seen
time and time again, you walkaway, you think you've had a
successful project. But if youhad the chance to revisit or
hear, you know, what hashappened three 612 months later,
then it all has fizzled out. Itwasn't, it wasn't really taken

(35:34):
to heart by the client. Now, youhad a chance to get into
academia in in the Gulf region,actually, we had the chance as
KnowledgeWorks to train overfive and a half 1000 Gulf
nationals on cultural agility,which was fantastic opportunity,
you were embedded in the system,and was inspired. In that way,

(36:03):
you had the chance to work withpeople who were who come from a
very different context. So how,as a as a lecturer, as a
researcher, were you able to usecultural agility to connect with
your students, with theirfamilies, etc?

George Kesselaar (36:20):
Well, I think, um, let me use a really
interesting story to tell you inthis regard. A few years ago, a
number of years ago, you wouldbe aware of the study, we were,
there was something called theglow project. Right? So this was
a study done many years ago,looking at something called
authentic leadership, and whatdoes that look like, you know,
in different parts of the world.
So at the time, I was teachingleadership at the Dubai Men's

(36:44):
College, and I thought, Well,what a wonderful opportunity to
expose my students to, you know,different ways of thinking about
leadership. And, unfortunately,there was a gap in the study in
that one of the, you know, thecountries that were not for the
regions that were not fullyrepresented, was the, you know,

(37:07):
the GCC, and I suggested to mystudents, let's do a study,
where we look at the differentways in which Emiratis describe
and understand leadership. And,and I knew that they were
different tribes within the, youknow, the Federation. And I
thought it would be reallyinteresting to see, you know, we

(37:28):
use the same methodology use thesame question, etc. And they had
to go out and speak to theirfamilies, and then find out now
how do how do Mr. T's viewleadership? What does authentic
leadership mean to them? Andthat I discovered was the
biggest mistake ever. Becausethe first thing that happened

(37:49):
during the conversation was nottalking about, you know, what is
authentic leadership mean. Butimmediately the conversation was
about who is Emirati? It was sofunny, because, you know, you
had different as you know,yourself different tribes. And
those tribes were, obviouslyfrom different parts of the
country, and have been there forlonger periods. And they were

(38:13):
big arguments about Now, whichof these tribes are really in
our Emirati tribes are notEmirati tribes. So scoping your,
your sample here was was reallydifficult because they couldn't
agree who was in scope and whowas not. But behind that story,
lies, I think, to me one of themost important opportunities to
apply to cultural intelligence,because in that conversation,

(38:36):
that started becoming highly,highly emotive, which you can
imagine. It almost reminded meof the time in the military when
I was involved in theintegration in South Africa,
where I now had these tribessitting in front of me in the
classroom, you know, starting toalmost wanting to get into
fisticuffs about, you know,other guys from Elaine, are they

(38:57):
really where it is, or the guysfrom Dubai or the guy from Abu
Dhabi, and having to step backand use the process of
intercultural intelligence thatwe've learned to ask to get
these guys to stop? Alright,step back. Right. So let's start
and think about ourselves asparticipants in the slaughtered

(39:20):
who are we, in a how do webehave and like to behave? How
do we present ourselves? Who arewe now dealing with
infrastructure, guys that arecoming from some of those tribes
in our lane, or some of thesetribes and on the wrong side of
the highway in Dubai, as youwould know, right? And how do we
learn about one another, so thatwe can have a very, you know,

(39:44):
peaceful and productiveconversation about what is
authentic leadership in anEmirati context? And it was
really interesting because ittook a while it took about three
weeks of you know, of sessions.
get to that point where guyscould really start trusting one

(40:06):
another in order to talk aboutthis very, very emotive topic,
so that we get to a solution interms of you know, what, what is
authentic leadership look likein the Emirati context? And and
what can we learn about, thenhow can we use that for the
future for them in theircareers, as well as they

(40:26):
practice their own leadershipwithin the government to other
organizations that they would beworking on. So you know, that's
just one example of, you know,so it's not only about in the
traditional sense, gettingstudents to learn better, but
it's also getting them to wantto be wanting to really at a
deep level, engage with oneanother, in order to, you know,

(40:49):
to learn and to grow as as youngmen and woman.

Marco Blankenburgh (40:53):
And I think the intercultural intelligence
framework in two ways allowsthat to happen. You illustrated
beautifully, that on the onehand, we are deeply connected to
families, tribes, nations, arealso unique, we have our own
unique cultural story, or ownunique cultural journey. And

(41:16):
connecting with that. And thesecond thing is to actually have
a neutral language to talk aboutit. So the language of the three
colors, a worldview, is in andof itself, a neutral language,
there is no good or bad in it.
The same with the 12 dimensionsof culture. It's not that one,
one way of doing things isbetter than another way of doing
things. So that neutrality ofthe language really deepens the

(41:38):
conversation reminds me of aproject we ran in South Africa
with where coaching acrossethnic groups was incredibly
difficult, especially in theearly days. And, you know, a
coaching conversation betweenlet's say, a Caucasian, white,
South African and a, let's say,a Zulu, South African, would

(42:00):
would stop halfway, or we wouldnever really reach the level of
depth you need for coaching. Butthen, bringing the intercultural
intelligence framework in all ofa sudden, the conversations
started to last longer, theywent deeper, the coaches landed
on on profound ways that theywanted to move forward, because
of the neutrality of thelanguage that we use. Now, for

(42:23):
you to continue after your evenacademia, you got headhunted,
once again, into the, into thebig four space. When you think
about the world of consulting,you, you now have a unique
opportunity, really, in your PhDwork to develop a method, right?

(42:43):
But a more culturally Agilemethod. So talk to us about
that.

George Kesselaar (42:52):
Thank you, Marco. Yes, yeah, at a fairly
late stage in my life, I decidedto really go back into academia.
And, and I think, you know, inmany of the conversations that
even you and I, I think Mark,over the last few years have had
with clients, we've realizedthat it's really important to
put that, you know, theacademics and the practice

(43:15):
together. And I in talking to somany of my academic colleagues,
you know, one of the challengesthat we have in academia, is to
really try and bring, you know,the word, the ivory tower of
academia, and the, the, youknow, the dirty roadside

(43:35):
practice of doing things in reallife together. And that's not
always that easy. Now, there arevery good examples of where that
is currently being done very,very well. But I think often
the, the issue is that some ofthese theoretical or the
theories that are being put intoplace or being developed in an

(43:56):
ivory tower, in an environmentwhere maybe the sample sizes are
our only other studentsavailable at the university, or
we're looking at very specificcase studies that are not you
know, generalizable, etc, etc.
And specifically, in an areawhere I am very interested in in
that is bringing about change.

(44:17):
And I think something that iscore to what knowledge works
does is this idea of positivebehavioral change in people,
right, whatever that means forthe person that is involved in
the process. So changemanagement has always been
really important to me. And whatwe are trying to do at the
moment and I had the privilegeof being allowed on to the

(44:38):
doctoral program at theUniversity of Capetown for
Graduate School of Business iswe are trying to have a look at
if we think about the ways inwhich people support a change,
right. So typically, in a in anenvironment where we engage in a
planned change and very oftenAnd, you know, you will know,

(45:01):
with many of the clients thatyou work with as well, changes
often planned, right? So, youknow, we now need to adopt a new
strategy, or implement a newtechnology, or there's something
that needs to be done. And thenwe work out, you know, this this
plan change intervention as astart and an end date, and a
huge budget assigned to it. And,and unfortunately, what you

(45:26):
know, the current research tellsus is that as many as one in
three of those largeinterventions failed dismally.
And more importantly, almost 25%of the value of this
intervention gets lost evenbefore implementation starts. So

(45:46):
it is significant significant issignificant. Yeah. So a lot of
work has been done to try andfind out now what can we do to
make these change interventionsmore successful. So there's a
lot of a lot of work that hasbeen done in the past to start
thinking about what is what isbeing referred to as the deepest
structures underneath or thatunderlying change management. So

(46:10):
instead of just looking at thestandard change process of
formulating the change,communicating the change, and
then training people to be ableto implement what is being
changed, and then following onin terms of whether it's been
done correctly. Now, what whatis underneath that? Because
obviously, that in itself, seemsand sounds really simple, but it

(46:31):
doesn't seem to do the job. AndI think what we've started to
discover is something that Ithink acknowledge works. And
we've, we've ici we ran acrossmany years ago, and that is that
people look at the world indifferent ways, right? So people
have different views of theworld. So when I run this
straightforward change process,in a specific context, I need to

(46:55):
understand what are some ofthese deep worldview structures
of those individuals involved inthe in the change process, and
that's what we're working on atthe moment. So it's not not so
much changing, you know,evidence based practice, as far
as Change management isconcerned, a recent study that
was done in 2019, you know,identified a significant amount

(47:19):
of really well designed bestpractices that really do work.
But unfortunately, they don'twork always. And they don't work
everywhere. So what we're hopingto do, is by shining the
spotlight of cultural worldview,over the whole change management
process, is to identify whetherone of these deep structures and

(47:44):
worldview has been identified asone of those deep fractures,
whether that influences the waypeople change, and whether it's
something that if we keep itinto account, we can use to help
people change more successfullyand direct really is the, you
know, the foundation of mystudy.

Marco Blankenburgh (48:01):
And it's an opportune time as well, because
if you look at the amount ofchange that humanities has to go
through right now it hasescalated, or, you know, evolved
rapidly. So it's exciting, Ilook forward to seeing the
results of that flow into theworld around us. Thank you. It's
been really good to, to go backinto history a bit with you,

(48:26):
George, there's so much to talkabout, but also, time is, is
always with us. So in closing,of course, you know, you talk
about change management, asignificant part of consulting
practice, change management isalways almost always part of any
consulting initiative in someway or another. But when you if

(48:48):
you were to summarize what youthink, a globally functioning
consultant in today's world,what would you say to them? What
do they need? What should theypursue in terms of personal
development in terms of how theycan be better at doing their job
in a global interculturally?
complex world?

George Kesselaar (49:10):
Right? Like, I would think I would, I would
refer back to an old model, Ithink that you and I spoke about
very often in the past, where wetalked about handset, and hotset
and mindset, right? And I thinkif I had to advise, and I do,
even now when I work with otherconsultants, or in the past,

(49:32):
when I was training consultants,I often say to them, it starts
with what is in your heart,right? So it's really about
looking forward and askingyourself, Why am I a consultant?
Or what am I trying to achieve?
Both for myself in my career,but also for my clients in
executing my career when I mightfor them to watch right. So, if

(49:55):
I if I as a consult and areengaging in this career as
someone that wants to helpothers change positively, then
I'm on the right track, right,so having the right heart set,
secondly, having the rightmindset. And I think from a
mindset point of view, I talkabout being able to put yourself

(50:16):
in the, in the shoes of aclient. And really, using a very
old definition of what we wereworking with in the past, really
being able to identify what yourclient is all about, being able
to interpret what you seecorrectly, and then being able
to adapt to what you see, thatneeds to be your mindset. Right.

(50:40):
So I'm doing this because Ireally want to help my clients.
And the way in which I'm goingto help my client is really
understand my client, tointerpret what I believe I
understand correctly, and thento adjust according, right. And
then lastly, when we talk abouthandset now handset to me as
methodology. So, you know, onecan, one can be, you know, going

(51:05):
into this, this consultingcareer with the best intentions,
right, with a willingness to beagile. But if you do not have
methodology, then you know,better than a, you know, a
second car salesman that, youknow that that's down the
street, you do need tounderstand the methodology. So I

(51:25):
would recommend that as youknow, if you want to grow as an
intercultural consultant, anddon't just say, Well, you know,
we need to understand thepeople, and then that'll solve
all the problems, you need tounderstand methodology
methodology. And fortunately,it's published in the top
journals. So you need to readthose journals. Sometimes
they're difficult to read,because they are written in

(51:47):
highly academic language, thatthey've got some really
important nuggets, that I hopethrough our practice at the
University of Capetown, andother very important schools,
and we will in the future beable to make a lot more
digestible. But with thatmethodology, and overlaid on top
of that, a mindset of wanting tohelp clients through

(52:08):
understanding where they'recoming from understanding they
will views etc. And then havingthe right heart, I want to help
them to improve, I think youcan't go wrong. The rest is in
the Big Four training manualsalready. So I don't tend to go
into all of that. But those are,in my mind the three secrets to
success,

Marco Blankenburgh (52:30):
hard set mindset and skill set.
Absolutely. I think that pushesus beyond just method and
professionalism into a bit ofartistry as well, indeed, in the
as you're explaining it, I'mthinking of a painter's palette,
indeed, painting some beautifulwork there. Well, thank you,
George, anybody who wants toconnect with George directly, as

(52:51):
always with our podcasts, hiscontact details are in the notes
of this recording. So feel freeto reach out to George and start
a conversation with him. He'spart of our global network and
one of our partners, and he willlove to take this conversation
further with you. Absolutely.
And thank you, George, for forjoining during this session.

(53:14):
It's been my

George Kesselaar (53:16):
pleasure.
Thank you, Marco, it's lovely tojudge you.

Marco Blankenburgh (53:22):
If you've listened to this podcast before,
you may have heard us talk aboutthe intercultural intelligence
certification program. It's anamazing 15 week journey, and the
next one launches in September,you will join a small cohort for
weekly sessions and learn to usetools like the three colors of
worldview and the culturalmapping inventory. After
finishing your join our networkfor over 600 practitioners in 70

(53:46):
countries to equip the worldwith cultural agility to sign
up, look for the link in theshow notes. And I really hope
you can join us in September.
Now you thought we were done.
We're not done yet. GeorgeGeorge has agreed to some rapid
fire questions. So get to knowGeorge a little bit better in

(54:10):
the next just 10 minutes or sowe'll have eight questions. So
it might be might be quickerthan 10 minutes. But some quick
questions. Keep it short.
George. Quick answers shortanswers. You ready? I'm ready.
So what's your favorite thing todo to recharge?

George Kesselaar (54:29):
Oh man, I love I love to walk my dogs on
the beach. Especially now livingin Simon Stan. There's nothing
more rewarding to do.

Marco Blankenburgh (54:40):
That's great. Who is the most
inspirational person in yourlife?

George Kesselaar (54:47):
Other than you Mako? No, no, I would, I would
say probably. And it's a bit ofa cliche sometimes especially
for the African But somebodylike Nelson Mandela, is really
somebody that has stirred me. Sothere are many, many
inspirational people in my life,I can think of my good wife,

(55:10):
Sandra, who really is alwaysnext to me. But in terms of, you
know, in the broader sense,somebody like Nelson Mandela,
someone like Desmond Tutu passedrecently, very sadly, who
really, you know, could step outthere and show others what
intercultural intelligencereally looks like, you know, not
just talk about it, but really,you know, put the rubber to the

(55:32):
road, as you say.

Marco Blankenburgh (55:34):
Yeah, yeah.
That's one of the mostinteresting places you've
visited.

George Kesselaar (55:39):
Ah, okay.
Yeah, actually, I've been to andI've had the privilege of going
to end Arctica. And it's a it'san arctic and Africa. Yeah. And
it's a really good place to seeinto cultural intelligence in
place in play, and you think,well, there's nobody there. But
if you look at Antarctica, youthink it's white, right? But
actually, it is a milliondifferent shades of grey. It is

(56:01):
amazing in terms of, you know,the different sediment in the
ice. And it just makes me thinkof us as people. You know, it's
just such a beautiful tapestryof, of different differences,
but actually very, very similarELO colors, it actually comes
together something that's reallybeautiful. Right?

Marco Blankenburgh (56:22):
Fascinating.
Fascinating. What are youcurrently reading?

George Kesselaar (56:26):
Oh, I'm reading 110 academic papers.

Marco Blankenburgh (56:34):
That's not really inspirational. For me, at
least. Let's say, let's say,let's say a book that that is
that you think I'm happy Ipicked up that book.

George Kesselaar (56:46):
Yeah. No, actually. It's a book that I'm
rereading at the moment, infact,
and I think it's still in theback of my on my wall, if I can,
I can find it.
But it's a text on leadershipwithin the military. And it's
called it's your ship. So Ithink you've maybe seen it. So

(57:07):
it's a life lessons from thebest damn ship in the Navy. It's
called and what the what the guyis really talking about is
taking ownership of what it isthat you are responsible for.
And how do you lead that processof taking ownership and, and
also inspiring others to takeownership of the in what we in

(57:28):
the Navy would call in the past?
You're part of ship? So yeah,it's your ship? The the story of
the best damn ship in the Navy,I think it's called Yeah, I can
definitely recommend that my

Marco Blankenburgh (57:38):
brilliant right? Now, something totally
different. So if you were tochange your career to become a
professional athlete, right,what sport would you choose?

George Kesselaar (57:52):
Well, you know, I've
always been interested inmartial arts, and I would
definitely become one of the orwould like to become one of the
best Aikido players in theworld.

Marco Blankenburgh (58:07):
Aikido.

George Kesselaar (58:08):
Yeah, and you know, what Marco, I think, other
than the fact that it's a verybeautiful sport. What is amazing
to me is if one, if one reallytakes the some of those, those
Gaitan practices, and reallyperfects them, effortless, it is
right? To use both your ownenergy and the energy of your

(58:31):
opponent to achieve someobjective, right? So the whole
idea of Aikido is not really touse your own strength, but you
use, you know, the weight in themovement, the velocity, whatever
of your of your opponent inorder to achieve whatever it is
that you're trying to achieve.
And that really fascinates me ishow do we that fluid movement,
almost a Tai Chi type of flowbetween two people? It's

(58:52):
amazing. Yeah. So that reallystirs me. It's beautiful to
watch. Absolutely. It is. It is.

Marco Blankenburgh (59:02):
What's your favorite food? Or

George Kesselaar (59:06):
maca? You know that right? I think I'm I
unfortunately, and I apologizeto the vegans out there. I am a
red meat enthusiasts andespecially a good piece of
steak. My wife is trying to getme off that but I'm afraid she's
failing in that one.

Marco Blankenburgh (59:26):
Nothing like a good South African boy.
Absolutely. Now I asked youabout professional sports. But
when you think about if you hadthe chance to start over and do
something totally different,what path would you choose? What
would it look like?

George Kesselaar (59:44):
If I had to start over in a mock of my name
George it means farmer. And I dobelieve there is there is a you
know there is value in once andlots of meaning in that. So I
I've often thought it would benice to be a farmer, right? I
don't know whether I'll be afarmer in the full sense of the

(01:00:05):
word, but something like agentleman farmer in the old in
the old days, so I could do alittle bit of consulting on the
side. But yeah, having a littlepiece of land maybe here on the,
you know, in the, in the southcoast of Cape Town, and having a
few hits his head of cattle,that would be that'd be quite
rewarding. And I think, youknow, the whole idea of, of just

(01:00:27):
taking something that, you know,that God has given us and just
stewarding that, as I think weshould, with our relationships
with people in the businesscontext, I think that just
something that says me, and itsuits my name, right.

Marco Blankenburgh (01:00:42):
Wonderful.
Well, I'm glad we added thesefew minutes to get to know you a
little bit better. Thank you fordoing this. Really appreciate
it. And it's my pleasure. Thankyou, everyone, for listening to
this episode. See you again nexttime. Bye, bye. Thank you so
much for joining us for thisepisode of the cultural agility

(01:01:05):
podcast. If you enjoyed today'sepisode, share it with someone.
Best way to help us out is byleaving a review on your
favorite podcast, app or channelor forward and recommend this
podcast people around you. Asalways, if any of the topics we
discussed today intrigue you,you will find links to articles

(01:01:25):
discussing them in greater depthin the podcast notes. If you
would like to learn more aboutintercultural intelligence and
how you can become moreculturally agile, you can find
more information and hundreds ofarticles at knowledge works.com
Special thanks to Jason Carterfor composing the music on this

(01:01:45):
podcast and to the wholeknowledge works team for making
this podcast a success. Thankyou Anita Rodriquez, Ara this
backyard, Reggie Suraj andthanks to VIP and George for
audio production, Rosalind Rajfor scheduling, and Caleb
Strauss for marketing andhelping produce this podcast