November 30, 2023 • 61 mins
We're delighted to introduce our esteemed guest, David Myles, who brings a unique perspective on race and intercultural agility. Born and raised an African-American in a largely white community, David's journey is one that shines a spotlight on the importance of investing in relationships and going beyond the conventional right and wrong approach. Our in-depth chat dives into the necessity of intercultural agility, a skill that's non-negotiable in our ever-evolving world, and how it helps in understanding ourselves and others better.
We don't stop there; we venture further into the realm of Intercultural Intelligence (ICI), and how it impacts our personal and professional relationships. With an ICI certification, you gain transformative insights, tools, and language to navigate challenging conversations, particularly those around race and ethnicity. We get practical too, sharing an instance of using the DIR (describe, interpret, respond) tool to kickstart a meaningful conversation on race with a group that was initially resistant.
Lastly, we tackle cultural preferences and their impact on leadership and decision-making. Utilizing tools like the cultural mapping inventory, we discuss how understanding these preferences can promote better decision-making and foster understanding. The conversation underscores the importance of self-awareness and understanding one's strengths and weaknesses within a cultural context. So, join us for this enlightening journey into the world of diversity and intercultural agility; it just might change the way you view the world.
Get in touch with David at: pdmenterprisesme@gmail.com
In this episode, you will learn:
- How to navigate DEI with intercultural agility.
- How cultural preferences impact leadership and decision-making.
- How understanding your own self-culture equips you to lead others.
Learn More about:
- Unity in Diversity in Your Organization
- The Key to Unlock Success in Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Initiatives
- Resolving Conflict Around Diversity
-- Looking for a book to take your cultural agility to the next step, check out the Ultimate Intercultural Question Book brought to you by KnowledgeWorkx.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Myles (00:00):
by investing in the relationship.
The very investment in therelationship brings a greater
worth to the relationship and itremoves it.
It removes it from being simplytransactional Right, because
sometimes the right and wrongapproach and even like the legal
contract, that almostdepersonalizes things.
So a person is sitting therethinking, well, do I want to
(00:24):
take the time for this, is thisreally worth my time?
And so they're looking at itthrough this right and wrong
aspect and wanting almost toprotect self in the fact, again,
keeping innocence is all cost,almost keeping innocence at all
costs, even to the jeopardizingof the relationship.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:57):
Welcome to the Cultural Agility Podcast,
where we explore the stories ofsome of the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world to help you
become culturally agile andsucceed in today's culturally
complex world.
I'm your host, marcoBlankenberg, international
Director of KnowledgeWorks,where every day, we help
(01:17):
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world.
Welcome everybody to thispodcast episode, and today I
have the honor to be with DavidMiles from North America, and
we're going to be talking aboutthe issue of race and a whole
(01:41):
bunch of other topics whereintercultural agility can make a
difference.
So, david, welcome to thisepisode.
I'm so honored that you arewilling to invest your time and
tell us your story and give usyour insights.
But, as always on this podcast,we ask people to introduce
themselves because theytypically do a much better job
(02:01):
at it.
David Myles (02:03):
Hi, marco, so honored to be with you guys
today and really excited aboutour topic today.
I believe that this issomething that a number of teams
and individuals, families,corporations, businesses, people
working together wrestle withthis topic and so very glad to
be jumping in this with you.
And you know, really, the toolsof ICI is incredible for
(02:24):
helping people bridge andnavigate these issues.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:27):
Now, thank you, and it's been.
It's been a privilege.
We are actually meeting for thefirst time.
We're sitting in the podcaststudio in the Knowledgeworks
office in Dubai, and it's beenawesome.
We've already had two amazingdays together and I look forward
to learning a lot more from youand with you.
But maybe before we get into it, I think you know that, with
(02:50):
Knowledgeworks, connecting theframeworks and the methodologies
we have with people's lifestory is really important for us
.
So I know you have quite astory to tell, but maybe, and
just give us the key highlightswho's David Miles?
Where's David Miles coming from?
What are some of the keyjourney points for you as we
(03:10):
think about interculturalagility?
David Myles (03:12):
Yeah, thanks, marco David Miles.
You know I am the.
I was the youngest of threechildren in my family.
My parents were from thesouthern parts of the United
States and North America.
My dad had served in themilitary, had been transferred
to Bitburg, germany, germanyarea, and you know the running
joke was they were trying tomake their way back to the
northeast Massachusetts wherethey were from, and the joke of
(03:35):
the family was someone crossedout east and put Dakota and so
they ended up in Grand Forks,north Dakota, one of two places
my mom's girlfriend said younever wanted to get transferred
to.
Why not?
Why not?
Freeze is a reason, and GrandForks?
And you know, for our viewersthey can't quite see this but I
am actually chocolate Norwegianand so you know I lived in a
(03:56):
Scandinavian.
That actually chocolate partmeans I'm African-American, so
there's a little tan with myselfhere.
So, moving to an area wherethere really wasn't any people
of color, my parents were someof the first African-American
couples on that air force baseand serving in that area.
So my life journey in that hasbeen extensive, you know.
(04:18):
A short part of it was, youknow, grew up in a family, had
some alcoholism in our familywhen I was in fourth grade I
developed these seizuredisorders.
When I went to junior high mybrother went on to high school.
I was at a school of a thousandkids.
I was only African-American, sothey had diversity me.
And one of the dynamics that'sactually salient to this
(04:42):
conversation is, you know, Ireally should have been a
statistic, but not the statisticthat most people think of.
As a sophomore in high school Ifailed my own suicide attempt
and so I'm here today, you know,because of the dynamics of
understanding interculturalagility, but also part of some
(05:02):
of the dynamics of growing up ina setting that didn't have that
and even how I saw myselfactually almost led to me not
being here.
So it's super exciting to be inDubai with such wonderful people
and such a wonderful culture,learning together.
So my wife and I, tammy, wehave four children, so three
boys and one girl.
My wife is 100% Prussian,german, german is from Russia.
(05:26):
So if you take German and youmix it with chocolate, we have
four German chocolate children.
So that's just how it kind ofworks out.
But yeah, so I am really gladto be here.
I am a business consultant.
I've served with nonprofits,I'm an adjunct college professor
and graduate school professorand actually do a radio program
as well.
But my big thing is people.
(05:47):
I love people and I feel thatevery person has a story and
their stories are amazing.
So the ability to meet miraclesthat walk by us every day is
truly a privilege that sometimeswe don't fully recognize.
Marco Blankenburgh (06:02):
Well, I just listening to you that short
introduction.
I think we could spend a wholeepisode just talking about that.
Very intriguing and I recognizethat diversity, being different
, was very much part of yourlife from the very earliest
(06:23):
years of your life.
David Myles (06:24):
Yeah, I mean it really kind of kicked off at an
early time.
I remember really inkindergarten one day sitting
there and asking a kid if Icould play with them and he's
like no, and I'm like, well, whynot?
I'm in kindergarten.
He's like, well, you're then-word.
And I was like huh.
Well, all I knew is that ithurt.
I didn't fully understand whathad happened and remember going
(06:47):
home and talking with my momabout that, and as I'm older now
I can see the hurt of thatdynamic of people otherizing a
person, and so I would have thisexperience.
Growing up I had reallywonderful people as well, but
had some difficulties in thatarea that actually were a part
(07:08):
of this, part of my failedsuicide attempt as well.
So I've been kind of navigatingthis conversation of race and
ethnicity and interpersonalrelationships for pretty much my
life.
Yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (07:23):
So what is it now?
Two years ago that we connected, yeah, and he had the privilege
of walking through theintercultural agility
certification and maybe it wouldbe really good from your side
to actually hear you explainwhat it is.
Some of the audience might benew today.
(07:44):
So what is interculturalagility?
David Myles (07:48):
Man intercultural agility.
Well, first of all, I'll put itthis way, marco If people are
breathing and you're across fromanother person who's breathing
and you're committed to yourvisions, values, missions and
actually just want to see yourrelationships grow, I would say
having intercultural agility isa non-negotiable Wait a minute.
Marco Blankenburgh (08:09):
So you're saying this is for everyone, not
just when you fly from onecountry to another?
David Myles (08:18):
This is for everyone.
Marco Blankenburgh (08:19):
And so.
David Myles (08:19):
I go back to kind of.
You know it might seem kind ofbasic, but really I feel like if
a person is breathing andyou're across from another
person who's breathing and bothof you are trying to make some
sort of connection and have arelationship, understanding
intercultural agility, which isalso intercultural intelligence,
is a.
For me, it's a non-negotiableRight.
(08:41):
If this, if we truly want tohonor the people that we're with
and even ourselves, I feel likethis is paramount.
You know, one of the firstparagraphs in the disc, one of
the disc profiles that I did, itsaid about self-awareness and
(09:01):
that self-awareness and leaders,that people who are self-aware
are far more successful becausethey have an understanding who
they are and who they're not,and the things that they should
engage in, the things that theyshouldn't engage in.
And I would say like thisparticular area of intercultural
intelligence is paramount.
You know it used to be thatpeople thought IQ was the big
thing and then people said, well, eq, emotional intelligence,
(09:24):
which is very much important.
But I would say now,intercultural agility, which
helps with interculturalintelligence, is huge.
The renowned business managementperson, peter Drucker, he said
this.
He said that culture, trumpstrategy, matter of fact,
culture, each strategy for amonth.
So you can have the mostwonderful strategy that there is
(09:46):
.
But if your culture is toxic orjacked up or a hot mess, that
particular strategy and thestrategy could be something
within your family, because, asa person engages in ICI, they'll
find that you can be in thesame family with a person and
have different worldviews anddifferent cultural preferences
(10:08):
within that same family and so,you know so, in that type of
near immediate relationship andthe relationship and community
that you have with your largerfamily and community in the
areas of places where peoplemaybe connect, and civic, social
, religious settings, anddefinitely in the area where
most people spend the majorityof their time, which is work.
(10:28):
I mean we spend anywhere fromsix to 16 hours a day in a work
setting and you know, marco,we've talked about this before
that right now I could give you$20,000.
What I can't give you is thelast five minutes, and so if
(10:50):
we're investing in heavyrelationships with people, this
is mission critical.
Marco Blankenburgh (10:56):
So I want to pick up on something that you
said.
So this idea that even withinthe same home, people could
actually be culturally differentand, especially if they start
living their own lives and theycome back together again and
they compare notes, they'reactually on a different cultural
journey, and that's somethingthat's really important for us
(11:16):
at KnowledgeWorks, and that,this idea that we have a
personal cultural journey, thateach person is on.
At the same time, we haveaffiliations affiliation to our
family, affiliation to, maybe, aplace that we grew up at, an
affiliation in the form of raceor ethnicity or a passport that
(11:37):
we carry.
But, as you know, in the NorthAmerican context, the word race
is often used to create largegroups of people that fit under
a certain label.
What KnowledgeWorks has beentrying to say is we need to,
first and foremost, look athuman beings as unique, as being
(12:00):
on their own unique journey,having their own unique
experiences, and we need toconnect with that.
The technical word we use forit is self culture, self
cultural analysis.
Talk to me about how thatshifts the thinking, the way we
engage the mindset, if we thinkabout five major racial groups
(12:22):
in North America versus nowthinking about, no, that, yes, I
might have affiliation withthat, but let me set my mind to
treat you as a unique humanbeing.
I want to connect with you,with your story.
How does that shift how weconnect with one another?
David Myles (12:40):
Well, you know, for instance, being even in a North
American context, as Imentioned before, my wife's had
a Prussian German and when shedid her three colors of
worldview she actually hadhigher honor shame, which would
seem like, well, wait a minute.
And so the uniqueness of people.
I often, when I'm teaching orwhen I'm speaking, sometimes
(13:04):
I'll have people hold up theirthumb and I'll say look at your
thumb.
You know your thumb, not mythumb.
I'm looking at my thumb, youlook at yours.
But these ridges that are inyour thumb are formed at three
months inside your mother's womb.
And even if a person had anidentical twin, if we
fingerprinted you and one of youwas in Argentina and the other
one was in Australia, we canstill separate you because of
the uniqueness of yourthumbprint being uniquely yours.
(13:27):
And so these large categoriesof race sometimes.
Well, let me just say thisyou've heard me say this on the
topic of race, which is peoplewill say it's a perennial issue.
It's a conversation that manypeople have an opinion on, but
(13:49):
one of the things that I feel isthat we kind of get ahead of
ourselves sometimes getting intothe conversation of race and we
don't honor people by equippingthem to have these types of
conversations, difficultconversations, but especially
this conversation and whathappens is is that when people
(14:10):
get into these conversationsthey end up getting triggered,
and this is more into theneurological part of it.
But it trips our limbic systemand it causes us to do fight,
flight and freeze and because ofthat we kind of map out this
neurological pathway.
That's equal to pain andthere's a part of us that says I
don't want to do this again.
Matter of fact, we becomefearful of it.
(14:33):
And you know there's a book byJane Burka and Lenora Yoon.
It's a book on procrastination,and there's this fascinating
part in it where they would sayif you stick out your hand and
you touch your hand, there's athing called just noticeable
difference, and this registerregisters when you touch your
hand in five to 600 milliseconds.
(14:54):
But they note that fearregisters in 14 milliseconds.
And so that fear thing is sovery strong and as people begin
to learn ICI, when they begin tolearn worldviews, when they
begin to learn culturalpreferences, it really gives
them ability to almost put,almost to put a buffer gap in
(15:15):
there, because you have aperspective, you have a vantage
point, you have a way of lookingat things, to be less triggered
and also to walk that journeyas a leader, leading others and
also being led by others.
Marco Blankenburgh (15:29):
Wow.
So in other words, you'resaying most people might not be
equipped enough to have theconversations.
So you're saying you need toactually reverse, go back to
basics, almost.
David Myles (15:43):
Yeah, I would say that, if I can speak
specifically to one thing andthis is not this is not a it's
not a criticism, but like beinga certified level two
practitioner with interculturalintelligence, with knowledge
(16:03):
works, also being anintercultural inventory, an IDI
qualified administrator a numberof people have actually
experienced that in leadershipsettings.
Now, one of the things with IDIis that it actually takes an
X-ray, and so because it takesan X-ray, you know when you look
(16:25):
at an X-ray period it doesn'toften look that pretty all right
, it doesn't give the fullcontext.
So sometimes when people gointo an IDI setting, they'll see
things and some folks will be alittle bit reactionary.
So from our North Americanframework of Innocence Guild,
I've had students where we'vetaught at the university that
I'm at and they've reacted like,oh my gosh, you're saying I'm a
(16:48):
racist or you're saying I'm abad person.
Because they look at thisparticular assessment and tool
that gives an X-ray and thenit's like, well, something's got
to be wrong with this.
And because people get triggeredand reactionary, then they're
like, whoa, I never want to dothis, so that any conversation
that comes up.
Now again, I'm dealing withcollege students.
So they're going to graduateand they're going to go work at
(17:12):
some company or in relationshipwith other people, and they have
had this experience.
So that guess what?
When you're wanting to helpgrow your team and this topic
comes up, what do you think isgoing to happen?
They get triggered again, right?
So what ICI does is that itbrings people back to a common,
shared humanity and it helpsthem to see the richness of
(17:35):
culture that exists in them andaround them and that, in essence
, gives them tools so that, whenthey actually engage with an
IDI or some other type ofassessment tool or in some type
of workshop or training thing,they now have tools to see their
humanity and even how they'rereacting to, something that
(17:58):
allows them to stay on thepathway towards growth and
towards what people areintending to do.
Marco Blankenburgh (18:04):
Yeah, and even just the way you're talking
about it, I can see you'repassionate and animated about
this.
So, before we talk aboutapplication, I'm just curious
how did going through thecertification, how did that
first level of application, howdid that impact you personally?
What did it do to you?
David Myles (18:25):
Well, for one.
What it did is that you knowhow do you put it being here in
Dubai, where I'm staying at inthe morning, I have these shades
and on the other side there'sthese thin shades, and then
there's these room darkeningshades and outside my window is
(18:45):
the beer, the Bur Khalifa.
Yeah, bur Khalifa.
So I'm not saying exactlycorrect.
What I would say is that Icould wake up in the morning and
I can see that there's lightcoming from around the shades
and stuff.
What I see I did for me is thatbeing that same person in that
environment was literallyopening the shades and saying,
(19:07):
oh my goodness, there's so muchlight that's been shined on
things and shown on things thatI've experienced interactions,
relationships and the like, andit really does give you a new
set of lenses.
I mean not to overuse thisillustration or metaphor, but it
(19:28):
really is the red pill, bluepill thing.
I mean like, and one of theincredible leaders and
facilitators, hassan, whopresented, I think he said
something like once you're anICI and once you see things
through those lenses, youliterally can't unsee them, and
(19:51):
so when you walk into rooms orwhen you're having conversations
with people, it so equips youand it also helps you deal with
the various pain points.
So it gave language to a lot ofpain points on conversations, a
race, that seemingly were goingnowhere in the past, and it
really helped me to understand,even for some people, their
(20:14):
engagement Mark I've mentionedthis before Sometimes we
attribute to character andmotive things that can be
explained by wiring andtemperament, and so how ICI
changed for me was some of theconversations that I was having
with people.
It wasn't necessarily that theywere their motives or even their
(20:35):
character that a person may beinclined to make that assumption
.
And again, for those who don'tknow, they're making assumptions
before doing DIR, which isdescribe, interpret and respond,
which is another thing.
Again, shameless plug.
This is why, if you'relistening to this podcast and
you've not gone through the ICIcertification, I really would
(20:56):
say that you need to do itbefore the end of the calendar
year or make sure that you do itwithin the first quarter of the
next year.
That's just me personally.
Again, my reasoning is kind ofsimple.
Again, marko, if you'rebreathing and the person across
from you is breathing, that's areally good reason for you to be
doing ICI.
So this gave tools when I washaving conversations with people
(21:18):
to say, wow, okay, I'munderstanding more, without
pitch-a-holing people.
What I felt that it did is thatit gave me the language and the
tools and the perspective andthe insight actually to better
honor the person sitting acrossfrom me.
Marco Blankenburgh (21:44):
So let's see if we make this practical.
So you mentioned the DIRdescribe, interpret, respond
which is one of ourintercultural perception
management tools.
There's other tools we couldtalk about, but maybe top of
mind, any story that you canthink of.
Any specific conversation mightnot want to mention the name of
(22:06):
the person totally leave thatup to you but where you were
able to use some of these toolsand where it shifted the way you
engage with one another couldbe a group, could be a person,
any stories that come to mind.
David Myles (22:20):
Yeah, actually one just popped, as you were in your
question that came to mind.
In the states, in theparticular faith community that
I was a part of, that dealt withevangelicalism.
There's been this reallyinteresting dynamic with race
and politics and those thingsand even just a way of thinking.
So one day I was actuallyteaching a class with an older
(22:43):
population and you have tounderstand, I once taught a
class that dealt with race andethnicity and honoring people
and, interestingly enough, whenI finished teaching that class,
literally half the people leftour church because they so
struggled with this.
(23:03):
So I was asked to come back inand teach and I remember
teaching this particular class.
It was two weeks.
I spent the first week actuallyteaching on culture and the
three colors of worldview, andthis is an older population.
(23:24):
And I'll just say what.
The leader of the class came tome after day one and said wow,
said David, this was reallyamazing, thank you so much for
coming in and teach.
I was honored to come and saidhe goes.
No, our people really neededthis.
And I said, well, this is greatgrowing together with one of
the.
He goes.
(23:44):
No, you have to understand,this particular group has a
steady diet of a certain type ofmedia and so they're super
resistant to these types ofconversations.
And I was like, wow, so we gotinto that conversation so that
the very next week, refreshingon the three colors of worldview
(24:06):
and culture and then jumpingactually into the conversation
on race and ethnicity, therewere people in the class who
were like.
They were like amen, yes, thatneeds to change.
And one person I knew that hadwrestled with it.
They were like can you say thatagain?
Like people need to hear this.
And I would say what hadhappened is in helping them walk
(24:29):
into the shared culture that wehad and honoring and caring for
them and for us all being ableto have conversations around our
shared humanity and for them todo it at their tables.
Then, when we got into aconversation that previously
would have been like match togasoline, it actually became
like this very, we need to leanin, and so the practical
(24:54):
application is I haveconsistently found, by equipping
or giving or sharing some ofthis framework and tools, that
has actually helped people leanin.
It's actually what DIRR doesdescribe, interpret, respond.
So often we jump tointerpretation and then we
(25:15):
respond emotionally, we don'tdescribe.
So what ICI does it actuallygives that buffer space for a
person actually to describe notonly what they're looking at but
even themselves, so that whenthey jump to interpreting and
responding, even when theyrespond, they have a more, shall
(25:36):
I say, a more substantive andstable platform from which to do
that and even better understandwhere they are at, they engage
in a better self differentiation, which is kind of a counseling
term to be able to engage that,so they don't become so mesh and
reactive, so that I mean likethat's literally the thing when
I tell business leaders and Iwork with businesses and
(25:59):
non-profits and universitiesagain the earlier tool that I
mentioned, idi great tool Ifleft to me and to budget and I
don't use this word pretty muchanytime, but I can almost say
strongly, if left to me, I wouldnever do an IDI without doing
(26:20):
ICI.
Marco Blankenburgh (26:22):
And you would flip the sweet sequence.
Yes, that's what.
David Myles (26:27):
So I would not do intercultural development
inventory.
It's great as a tool becauseit's an x-ray.
I would not do that particularassessment If left to me and if
resourcing was not an issue.
I would not do that withoutfirst and primarily doing
intercultural intelligence.
Marco Blankenburgh (26:46):
And the example you just gave, I think,
is a beautiful example oftalking.
You mentioned fight flight tofreeze those trigger moments.
If people have had bad memoriesor bad experiences with tough
conversations like race and whatyou just explained the same
group in the past, half of themwalk out or a third of them walk
(27:07):
out and then bringing or almostinjecting ICI into the equation
, then they lean in, they stayin the conversation, they want
to be there.
That's a profound shift.
So when you could you think ofother ways, because it's
sometimes hard to imagine.
(27:27):
Okay, I hear David is excitedabout it, I can hear that he's
been able to impact.
But how do you take practicalsteps to get to that point where
people start leaning in andthey say they stop saying, well,
I was forced to be here, butinstead they now say, wow, this
(27:47):
is profound, I want to be here.
But how do you take those smallsteps?
Because you had the luxury oflike two weeks with people.
You don't always get that right.
So what are the small steps youwould advise people to take to
eventually to bring ICI toolswork with people like yourselves
?
Or, as you mentioned, thanksfor the plug, get certified
(28:08):
yourself.
But what could they do to takesmall steps in that direction?
David Myles (28:13):
Well, one of the things I want to say first is
and even with your question is,sometimes we think that a person
is actually starting at zero,like what are the steps that
they could start from here toget to there?
And what I want to say thathappens with ICI is that you, in
some ways, have already beenoperating this way in your life.
(28:36):
It's just that the curtainshaven't been opened to shine on
the muscles that you're alreadyusing and that you used in other
ways to do that, to understanddifferent cultures I mean even
within your own family, becausenot every person in your own
family is that way.
So you've had to pivot, you'vehad to adjust, you've had to
explain things differently,you've had to have patience,
(28:59):
you've had to clarify andclarify some more.
So in this particular situationyeah, having two weeks of the
class, but I'll use ICI in aconversation that may only be a
few minutes and what I'll do isactually take some of the
overviews of the three colors ofworldview.
Marco Blankenburgh (29:24):
And so even how?
David Myles (29:25):
we kind of explain it, that innocence, guilt, that
there could be some rules anddoing right and the goal being
innocent and in a Westerncontext, not completely because
there are people in the West whodon't feel this way, but saying
we have lots of legal contractsand that's something that's
really huge for us.
(29:46):
And then talking about somethings with honor, shame,
cultures, and I'll give someillustrations that for people in
North America, they can go backand look at things that have
happened in our culture as wellas in media, where they're like
oh yeah, I remember this eventand oh yeah, I was kind of
confused on why this presidentof this company apologized for
(30:09):
the actions of one person.
That didn't make sense to mebecause I thought to myself well
, that person didn't do anythingwrong, and now you're able to
talk about innocence, guilt,which is right and wrong,
instead of understanding honorand shame, which was belonging
and what it did to the community.
(30:29):
And so what it does is thatwhat I want to say?
This is super helpful becauseit almost like Fills in gaps or
it almost puts the mortar inbetween the gaps and you start
saying, oh, wow, and so All myconversations, an extra majority
(30:52):
of my conversations aren'tlengthy conversations, but I'm
still engaging within theframework of culture and
Intercultural intelligence and Ithink one of the other things
mark on this is because, becauseof how this is is formatted in
a framework, you're able to haveentry points.
I'm not sure if this wasintended, but, for example, the
(31:14):
12 dimensions of culturalpreference the first one is
growth and then one is peopleand the other one is material.
So when I'm working withC-suite executives, I'll say
I'll explain that to him.
I said so.
How's that ever been word?
Where you're?
You're your director of sales,but your director, rightee, you,
you've had to have thispain-point Conversation yeah,
(31:37):
because the person's like well,you know what, if we're really
committed to the company's value, we really want to succeed.
We need to build out ourinfrastructure.
You know we need to change ourCRM.
You know our contact, you knowjust our manager.
And the other person's like no,we need to invest in our people
.
Yeah, okay, there's no race.
Sometimes in that particularconversation like in my area,
where it's a lot of skin andavian people Mm-hmm, that person
(31:59):
can be in a company and thatC-suite where there are no
people of color and even couldbe no women in that city, and
that conversation, that painpoint is real.
And then, when you actuallybegin to talk about 12
dimensions of culture With that,they're like oh well, wait a
minute.
Okay, and because they are ableto see their own experience,
(32:22):
because they're able to seetheir own pain points with this
and their own things withleading, it actually becomes a.
It becomes like it becomes acup of cold water on a hot day.
Yeah, because people, all anumber of people, have had these
pain point issues and leadingand working in these settings
(32:43):
and what's one of the thingsthat actually keeps people from
engaging they're like I don'tknow what to do, like what do we
even do with this, like, wheredo we even start?
Yeah, so all those variousthings that leaders say all the
time, when they're able to cometo three colors of worldview and
at least have a degree ofActually putting containers
where all that messy spaghettiis going all over the place, and
(33:06):
it just kind of feels like it'swell.
Yeah, it allows you to actuallyput it in a container so that,
as you're making sauce, you canactually pour that in there and
people can actually have a mealthat they actually share
together.
Yeah, and then something that'stypically messy, yeah, and
sticky, actually becomessomething that builds community
and has a purpose.
Marco Blankenburgh (33:24):
Yeah, wow, there's so many touch points
there.
So the one thing I'm thinkingof is, as I'm listening to you,
that tools like the culturalmapping inventory using that to
to give people personalunderstanding, but also it gives
people a neutral language, soit's not judgmental, mm-hmm,
(33:46):
it's a neutral language.
And the other thing is thatonce you can name something, it
opens up a door forunderstanding, conversation,
decision-making, which theexample you just gave about
growth.
David Myles (34:01):
Yeah, so, yeah.
So one of those things, marco,you know, one of the differences
with, with knowledge, works,materials, that it's, it's you
have psychosomatic and you havecultural.
So, like the uniqueness of ofICI, through cultures, of
worldview and the Dimensions, isthat this is dealing with an
(34:23):
area that often gets overlookedBecause, like for the leader or
the person listening to me, ifwe start putting out things like
Myers-Brack Strength findersdisc, you know, 360 review,
people start thinking to oh yeah, you know what this really
helped me as a leader.
What did it do?
(34:43):
It gave a greaterself-awareness of who you are
right and also who you're not,you know.
And so, which is equallyimportant, it's equally
important.
So I for the for the largerworld, when, when you say
football, they're talking aboutsoccer, you know, in the
American context, we're talkingabout Americanized football with
pads, mm-hmm, and where I liveat, the Minnesota Vikings are a
(35:07):
football team and they have thisone guy who's like one of the
top receivers in the NFL namedJustin Jefferson.
So, in my particular, becauseagain, the other thing about ICI
, it helps you understandcontext.
So even what I just talkedabout the context of the world
when it comes to football andthe context of America and now
even the regional context ofwhere I live.
(35:29):
Well, I'll share with someoneyou know, justin Jefferson.
He's a wonderful, wide receiver.
He makes a horrible left guardMm-hmm, mm-hmm.
And it doesn't matter how niceof a person that he is, if you
put him in a left guardsituation, that's gonna be a
recipe for disaster, right?
Because there's a certainself-awareness and there's also
an understanding of His skillsets and even the things that
(35:52):
make him him.
Yeah, that actually leads tothe potential for being
successful and also leads to oneof your major Players actually
having broken bones and beingout for the season.
Now, on the psychosomatic way,because people are able to look
at that and say, okay, here'ssome things of which I'm strong
on my D in my disc, which alsomeans I might be dropping balls
(36:15):
that the S and C parts of ourteam, that like studying us and
conscientiousness andUnderstanding about yourself.
Well, what I see I does is itgives that to you in a culture,
mmm-hmm.
And again, I love how Ming JinTong, one of the ICI
Practitioners, shares aboutculture, cultures, the lenses
(36:36):
that we look through.
We don't look at our glasslenses, we look through them,
yeah, and so ICI helps you asyou look through culture.
Remember Drucker said cultureTrump strategy.
Sometimes people can't evenname their culture.
Yeah, yeah, so this providestools, practical tools.
Yeah, again, to go back to whatI said, it allows you to take
(36:57):
the blind shades and open themup and shine a light, and I I've
strongly feel that, as peopleengage this, it, it has an as
you can talk, like metaphors itreally will.
It will change their their lifefrom seeing things in black and
white To seeing things in 8kTechnicolor, full surround sound
(37:24):
.
Well, well, like it really does.
And actually last night becauseMing Jin Tong's the one who
actually Introduced this to mewe were walking and I actually
told him.
I said, ming Jin, thank you somuch, like this is and I'm not
saying this because you're infront of me, but this has been
one of the greatest gifts givento me and being able to navigate
(37:45):
the conversations on race,because I've had a lot of
painful conversations, okay, andI've gone through a lot of
different pain points.
I've led in a number ofdifferent situations where
things have gone well or thingshave gone bad, and the one thing
is I wish that I would have hadsome of this understanding Even
earlier as a leader, right,right.
And so now in the last coupleyears of having these new lenses
(38:08):
and having this insight, it'sreally been exciting.
It's been really neat to seethe conversations and even
having self-care for myself,mm-hmm.
Marco Blankenburgh (38:16):
Yeah, so you mentioned in a number of ways
that it starts really with, youknow, having those blinds open
up and and shed light on you, onyourself, your own journey in
life and what's happening withyou as a person.
So that self-awareness isfundamental.
Now, very, you know, one of theways that I've seen people
(38:40):
think about self-awareness is,for instance, through In
Discovering more and more biases.
For instance, at the momentthere, I think the clock is
ticking at a hundred and eightyeight biases that they've
identified.
Yeah, so I don't remember.
Maybe, even if you asked me onthe spot, can you name 20, and I
(39:01):
don't think I could.
And it's important that westart to recognize that these
exist.
But, at the same time, thatlevel of self-awareness is so
fundamental, especially in theconversation around race.
Talk to me about how theIntercultural agility approach
(39:22):
can help people navigate biasesand stereotypes In, not just in
a better way, but in a way thatrelationship is built.
David Myles (39:31):
Yeah, I come back to the fact of saying what it
does is.
It helps us to enter into ourshared humanity and even the,
the important part of living incommunity, which etymology is
common unity.
Okay, so On the bias parts, ahundred and eighty eight, my
(39:53):
wife Tammy will say you knowit's, it's easier track flies
with honey than in its vinegar.
Okay, so if we start off withthe biases and the negative,
yeah, and almost coming from aplace of scarcity and deficiency
, how much do people want tocontinue going at my people?
You've heard leaders say like Ireally don't have a
conversation about race becauseit's just gonna be about how bad
(40:15):
of a person that I am, okay andso like.
So they already feel likethey're coming to fish into it,
only to be made more deficientand so it begins this attack.
So so I again say this wholeaspect of shared humanity and
actually journeying together,and Actually not only journeying
(40:35):
together, then being able toappreciate the things with one
another, marco, one of thethings that I I feel that's been
lost with kind of these Sociallogical constructs of race,
especially as it comes to blackand white.
But even for for, and theAmerican context with European
Americans is all asked somethings about just their last
(40:58):
name and Like explaining theirlast name, and like where's that
come from?
And a lot of people drop blanksBecause in ways because it's
just like flat paint whitepeople lost the texture, the
tenor, the beauty of ethnicityBecause it's been truncated to
this thing called white.
So there's also there's often afreeing up of the other person.
(41:21):
I've had students go away whohad broken relationships.
I remember this one guy she hada broken relationship with her
mom went home and because Iasked her something About their
last name on a monotology thestudy of surnames and she wasn't
really sure.
So she went home and asked hermom.
She had a broken relationshipand instead of being at each
other, they were beside eachother trying to solve something.
(41:42):
And then mom said well, weshould talk to grandma.
Well, mom had a brokenrelationship with grandma.
So then you have these threepeople sitting around a table
having a conversation about theculture of their surname Wow,
and they weren't fighting, andthis guy came back to class in
tears.
So there's no black and whitethere.
That's just a family andlooking at some of the culture
(42:03):
things.
So the practical ways willbecome as as diverse as the
relationships and interactionsthat people already currently
have.
Marco Blankenburgh (42:14):
Yeah, so starting with that shared
humanity, having a few moretools in your toolbox to
actually have that conversationand keep the conversation going.
But I also see that ultimatelythat that's a beautiful starting
point but, as the familyexample you just gave,
eventually relationship needs tobe restored.
(42:35):
We talk a lot about creatingthe third cultural space,
creating culture together, andto me, that's what I always look
for or drive towards, no matterif I have one minute with a
person or I get to spend a wholeyear of doing a whole bunch of
stuff.
How do you see the shift there?
(42:58):
Because what I often find ispeople are innocence,
guilt-oriented folks, rightWrong-oriented folks.
They want to make sure they seethe issue right and they spend
a lot of time talking anddebating that, and then they
want to fix the issue, but theydon't always want to then be in
(43:18):
relationship afterwards.
David Myles (43:20):
Yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (43:21):
So talk to me about this idea of, okay, we
deal with our biases and ourstereotypes from almost a
backdoor through the backdoor ofhumanity, the backdoor of being
in conversation, learning evenabout our surname, and that
brings people together and then,as a result of that, the
(43:42):
ultimate step really is thatthat relationship is restored
and culture gets createdtogether.
How do you see that add to thedialogue around race?
David Myles (43:54):
Well, I think one thing is that it helps that for
people to see that it's not thatthe only conversation is about
race, and that's another thingthat kind of gets truncated as
well, so that you actually havea more full-orbed view of a
(44:14):
person and a lot of other placeseven to go in developing the
relationship and theunderstanding of self and
understanding of that person andthem with you, so that if
there's this one aspect of raceyou can actually have a
conversation.
So in marriage counseling theywould say an unresolved issue,
(44:38):
like a person could havesomething and it's not as big as
an issue.
But if there's no other lifearound it, that issue seems much
larger and all-consuming thanit really is because things have
been reduced to primarily thisand maybe a couple other things.
And so when you understand thatthere's more to a person, that
(45:04):
also if you're creating a thirdcultural space, that means
people are bringing somethinginto that space and even we're
having an understanding.
What ICI does is it helps youunderstand another person's
worldview and even part of theircultural preferences.
Well, as that person islearning that about themselves,
you're actually learning theauthentic them.
(45:25):
That's beautiful.
So the authentic them whopreviously maybe was more
reactionary on conversations ofrace, but now understands things
culturally, on worldview andthese parts of them that is
unknown and unseen to themselves.
And there's this thing aboutfear of the unknown.
So now we're back at fear andas you uncover those things, it
(45:50):
allows that person more fully toenter in and if you have
something that's shared, thatactually helps you to come
together too.
That's why people in medicalschool they can form these
lifelong relationships or ingraduate school or any sort of
things, or even through aparticular event that's happened
(46:11):
because they have this sharedexperience together and they
live this together.
Though they're diverse anddifferent people, they've shared
those things together.
This helps people to have anunderstanding of what's already
shared but sometimes just getsoverlooked.
And again they already have thetools and muscles.
They're already using thosethings, Just sometimes are aware
(46:35):
that they've been using thosethings.
And it's just slightly tweaking.
And I mean, like Marco, if youhave to come with a slide ruler
and a pencil to solving a majorExcel spreadsheet type of thing,
if you're coming bringing yourcomputer and an IT person and
(46:56):
someone who really understandsExcel, or you're coming by
yourself with a chalk and penand a slide ruler, how confident
are you feeling to engage theconversation?
Yeah, absolutely.
Now notice I didn't sayanything about race, but I gave
an illustration that deals withreal life, that a person could
say, oh well, yeah, of courseI'm going to feel Okay, now
scratch the conversation of mathand Excel and all these sort of
(47:18):
things, Now bring in theconversation of culture and race
.
Marco Blankenburgh (47:22):
Now, one thing that goes through my mind
as you're speaking is that therelationship-centric approach
very often results in a numberof things.
First of all, we want to betogether, but also the issues
that we thought were between usnow get perspective, and I've
(47:47):
seen often that those issueseither shrink or disappear
altogether.
But also if there are stillissues between us, if we now
have relationship, then it'sactually possible to discuss
them.
So one thing that we'vediscovered through the three
colours of worldview is that,you know, innocence,
(48:08):
guilt-oriented, right,wrong-oriented people have a
tendency to put the problem atthe centre of resolving the
conflict, While what we'velearned from many parts of the
world working in over 70countries is many cultures put
their relationship at the centre, they work on the relationship.
They don't pretend that problemdoesn't exist, but they work on
(48:31):
the relationship.
And then in that, even if therelationship has grown just a
little bit, they then see if theproblem could be addressed If
the relationship is there, andif it's, just strong enough.
Let's bring the problem back inand see if we are able to
discuss it.
How does that shift from beingproblem-centric and we need to
(48:54):
understand the problem and weneed to understand it in the
same way before we can sort ofmake a go away?
First is relationship-centric.
How would that potentiallyshift things and add to the
conversation of?
David Myles (49:07):
race.
Well, the first thing thatyou're saying even by investing
in the relationship, the veryinvestment in the relationship
brings a greater worth to therelationship and it removes it
from being simply transactional,because sometimes the right and
wrong approach and even thelegal contract that almost
(49:28):
depersonalizes things.
So a person is sitting therethinking, well, do I want to
take the time for this, is thisreally worth my time?
And so they're looking at itthrough this right and wrong
aspect and wanting almost toprotect self in the fact again
keeping innocence at all costs,almost keeping innocence at all
(49:50):
costs, even to the jeopardizingof the relationship.
I've seen that as well, One ofthe things that was super
fascinating about Hassan's studywas looking at those or
actually Bart, his teaching onhigh performance.
(50:13):
High performance, interculturalmarriages and what builds and
breaks trust.
And I came back to this issueof the person apologizing and
admitting mistakes.
Okay, like that, and aninnocence guilt type of thing.
It's like oh no, I'm going tomake sure that I'm right in this
, and if I'm not right in this,then there's someone else to
(50:36):
blame.
So I'm still not wrong.
And if there's anything wrongis that I didn't realize how
wrong the other person I trustedto do this, Whereas in
apologizing, that is dealingwith the relationship and saying
I care about the relationship.
So when you become relationshipfocused, you're investing in
the relationship and youactually begin to see that the
(50:58):
relationship is more than thisone issue and that there's so
much more to develop and keepand nurture than this one issue
and the other one.
It's because this issue growsto be the main thing and again
it becomes a point of pain.
Marco Blankenburgh (51:14):
Well, either I want to fight Okay, I want to
freeze or I want to flee, yeah,and then emotions start to take
over, and then conversation itgets killed, basically.
And the relationship getskilled in the process.
David Myles (51:30):
Yep, and so that's one of the things that I'm it's
interesting enough in navigatingbecause I also do conflict
resolution.
But I have students, I haveleaders where they have family,
that's, in a place where there'sliterally no people of color
and their families are brokenover this conversation of race
(51:50):
or politics or these variousthings.
Because this framework and sonow back to I want this is
really important.
I do a number of things withconflict resolution, working
with C-suite executives andthings, and even families, and
I've sometimes, to the surpriseof people, said, you know,
(52:11):
you're really kind of seemingknuckle to knuckle and the truth
of the matter is you're reallya lot closer, you think, to
actually clasping hands.
Yeah, and one of the firstthings that I do, especially
when I'm working with leadersand I've been called in to do
conflict mediation, is I'llactually assess the two people
(52:35):
and so for one particularsituation that I was in, those
people had familiarity andactually gone through ICI types
of things.
So it was really interestingunderstanding these two leaders,
then also looking at some oftheir other leadership styles
and also getting to know them asa person again, relationship,
not just task and when wefinished I was like, oh wow, as
(52:59):
I was preparing, I'm like, oh,wow, this is yeah, this makes
sense on how you guys havemissed each other, right, right.
And so, marco, we got into itand we began having this
conversation and being able todiffuse Innocence, guilt, being
able to diffuse some parts thatcould have went wayward on honor
, shame and even power fear, andactually keep the relationship
(53:21):
intact.
You know how that meeting ended.
It ended with me leaving andthese two people in tears
apologizing to each otherBeautiful.
And then scheduling lunch.
Wow, because what they thoughtwas actually opposites, they
actually found they were so muchon the same page.
One was speaking Portuguese,the other one was speaking
Swahili, but with what ICI didand with an understanding that
(53:44):
actually provided a sharedlanguage that translated all of
that for both of them and theyactually didn't jeopardize the
relationship and, to betransparent, without sharing any
information, Both of them hadcome to me separately and were
ready to resign.
Wow, because they cared so muchabout the mission that they
didn't want to hurt that, butthe conflict that they were
(54:04):
having.
They were like, yeah and wow, Imean the amount of leadership,
personal, relational capitalthat this group almost lost
because of missing each other,but them also having the
language to come back to themand say do you remember doing
your ICI?
(54:24):
Okay, so how does looking backat your own report, how does
your particular way of handlingthe cultural preferences versus
conceal and reveal the oneperson?
They were very much a reveal.
The other person that they werehaving conflict was more
concealed, mm-hmm.
And so they were attributingthat person being cold and not
(54:46):
caring.
Because they conceal again whatI say earlier we attribute to
character and motive, somethings that can be described by
temperament and wiring andculture Mm-hmm.
And when that person began tohave a conversation,
relationship and understand, ohno, I actually care about you, I
just don't necessarily Shareeverything.
Again to another part of the12-dimension is your work
(55:08):
relationship situational oruniversal?
Mm-hmm.
For the one person who wasrevealed, they were also very
universal relationship.
For the concealed person, theywere also situational.
So work was work and outside ofwork there was that same
relationship didn't carry overbeyond work, yeah, so that the
person that was left to makeassumptions, which is now the
(55:32):
interpret response, withoutactually describing that there's
a concealed reveal, a universalsituational, an honor, shame,
innocence, guilt, so from fromBoth wanting to resign, to
actually restoring relationship,having lunch and Continuing and
(55:53):
still continue to grow theirrelationship.
And and also, both of them wereoh my goodness, they're both
phenomenal leaders and both ofthem so needed and Contributing
to the success of what'shappening with this group.
Mm-hmm, so that you know, theyalmost peeled off.
(56:13):
Now here here's another part.
Because the CEO had actuallygone through ICI and was
familiar not only with the threecolors of worldview and culture
, but the 12 dimensions ofpreference.
That person also wasspearheading at this issue.
They were wanting it resolvedand Not even not from a right
(56:35):
wrong, and even being careful tomake sure that they weren't
doing shame Because they had the, they had positional authority,
right.
So that person even being ableto have those conversations with
those various leaders, to stillhonor them as leaders, to still
engage on this particular thing, to bring it to a point of
(56:55):
resolution, but stillunderstanding all of these
various variables that sometimesgo unspoken and people are just
left to interpret them and weinterpret them, leading to not
trip our Olympic system.
So meaning we're we'reinterpreting them Most often
from a negative perspective.
Yeah, then a positiveperspective.
Marco Blankenburgh (57:17):
Wow, we could talk for hours, I think,
yeah, I really have enjoyed thisconversation and I I'm sure
that, if people want to reachout to you, we didn't even say
that you're actually inMinneapolis.
Yes but you are, so people wantto reach out to you.
(57:37):
David's contact details will bein the notes section of the
podcast that you found, so he'savailable from a coaching point
of view, from a learning andenvironment point of view, an
advisory, consulting point ofview.
So reach out to him if he's inyour part of the world,
especially, I would say, when itcomes to applying intercultural
(58:01):
agility into the Challengingtopics of race.
If you give you, thank you forbeautiful examples on on how
you've done that and I I'mreally excited about the work
you're doing and I look forwardto maybe comparing notes in
there in the Not-to-distantfuture and hear more of these
(58:22):
beautiful stories of, yeah, howyou're making a difference in
the world.
David Myles (58:26):
So thank you for joining this well, thank you and
Marco, thank you for you andyour team's work, and I mean
like for those listening.
I'm not saying this becauseMarco's in front of me.
If you, if you call me andcontact me, or if you ask my
wife and people who work with me, you're gonna hear them say he
talks about this, he leads andhe uses this on a daily
(58:48):
one-on-one to group interaction.
It really did revolutionize,especially on this issue of race
in the American context.
Oh, it is.
It's.
It's helped me and others stayengaged in ways and actually to
diffuse certain things that costpeople to have these bad
(59:10):
reactions.
So again, marco hasn't asked meto say this.
You know I'm not paid for anyof these things.
I Personally, as a testimony,want to stress to your listeners
, you know, to really stop to goto knowledge works website,
read up on these things, haveconversations with Marco and his
(59:31):
team and and I'm I'm certifiedin a number of different
Assessments, so I'm not, youknow, so coming from doing
assessments and administeringassessments and working with
leaders and stuff like this.
This is one of the key toolAssessments and things that I
practice in my work.
Marco Blankenburgh (59:50):
Thank you.
Thank you, david, for thisfantastic conversation.
Thank you, marco, and we lookforward to hearing more about
you from you in the future.
And listeners, please reach outto David and start connecting
and interfacing with him.
Thank you so much.
David Myles (01:00:06):
Thank you.
Marco Blankenburgh (01:00:06):
Marco, thank you so much for joining us for
this episode of the culturalagility podcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,share it with someone.
Best way to help us out is byleaving a review on your
favorite podcast app or channelor Forward and recommend this
podcast people around you.
(01:00:26):
As always, if any of the topicswe discussed today intrigue you
, you will find links toarticles Discussing them in
greater depth in the podcastnotes.
If you would like to learn moreabout intercultural
intelligence and how you canbecome more culturally agile,
you can find more informationand hundreds of articles at
(01:00:47):
Knowledgeworkscom.
A special thanks to JasonCarter for composing the music
on this podcast and to the wholeKnowledgeworks team for making
this Podcast a success.
Thank you, nita Rodriguez, araAziz-Bakyan, rajitha Raj, and
thanks to Vip and George foraudio production, rosalind Raj
(01:01:08):
for scheduling and Caleb Straussfor marketing and helping
produce this podcast.
by investing in the relationship.
The very investment in therelationship brings a greater
worth to the relationship and itremoves it.
It removes it from being simplytransactional Right, because
sometimes the right and wrongapproach and even like the legal
contract, that almostdepersonalizes things.
So a person is sitting therethinking, well, do I want to
(00:24):
take the time for this, is thisreally worth my time?
And so they're looking at itthrough this right and wrong
aspect and wanting almost toprotect self in the fact, again,
keeping innocence is all cost,almost keeping innocence at all
costs, even to the jeopardizingof the relationship.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:57):
Welcome to the Cultural Agility Podcast,
where we explore the stories ofsome of the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world to help you
become culturally agile andsucceed in today's culturally
complex world.
I'm your host, marcoBlankenberg, international
Director of KnowledgeWorks,where every day, we help
(01:17):
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world.
Welcome everybody to thispodcast episode, and today I
have the honor to be with DavidMiles from North America, and
we're going to be talking aboutthe issue of race and a whole
(01:41):
bunch of other topics whereintercultural agility can make a
difference.
So, david, welcome to thisepisode.
I'm so honored that you arewilling to invest your time and
tell us your story and give usyour insights.
But, as always on this podcast,we ask people to introduce
themselves because theytypically do a much better job
(02:01):
at it.
David Myles (02:03):
Hi, marco, so honored to be with you guys
today and really excited aboutour topic today.
I believe that this issomething that a number of teams
and individuals, families,corporations, businesses, people
working together wrestle withthis topic and so very glad to
be jumping in this with you.
And you know, really, the toolsof ICI is incredible for
(02:24):
helping people bridge andnavigate these issues.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:27):
Now, thank you, and it's been.
It's been a privilege.
We are actually meeting for thefirst time.
We're sitting in the podcaststudio in the Knowledgeworks
office in Dubai, and it's beenawesome.
We've already had two amazingdays together and I look forward
to learning a lot more from youand with you.
But maybe before we get into it, I think you know that, with
(02:50):
Knowledgeworks, connecting theframeworks and the methodologies
we have with people's lifestory is really important for us
.
So I know you have quite astory to tell, but maybe, and
just give us the key highlightswho's David Miles?
Where's David Miles coming from?
What are some of the keyjourney points for you as we
(03:10):
think about interculturalagility?
David Myles (03:12):
Yeah, thanks, marco David Miles.
You know I am the.
I was the youngest of threechildren in my family.
My parents were from thesouthern parts of the United
States and North America.
My dad had served in themilitary, had been transferred
to Bitburg, germany, germanyarea, and you know the running
joke was they were trying tomake their way back to the
northeast Massachusetts wherethey were from, and the joke of
(03:35):
the family was someone crossedout east and put Dakota and so
they ended up in Grand Forks,north Dakota, one of two places
my mom's girlfriend said younever wanted to get transferred
to.
Why not?
Why not?
Freeze is a reason, and GrandForks?
And you know, for our viewersthey can't quite see this but I
am actually chocolate Norwegianand so you know I lived in a
(03:56):
Scandinavian.
That actually chocolate partmeans I'm African-American, so
there's a little tan with myselfhere.
So, moving to an area wherethere really wasn't any people
of color, my parents were someof the first African-American
couples on that air force baseand serving in that area.
So my life journey in that hasbeen extensive, you know.
(04:18):
A short part of it was, youknow, grew up in a family, had
some alcoholism in our familywhen I was in fourth grade I
developed these seizuredisorders.
When I went to junior high mybrother went on to high school.
I was at a school of a thousandkids.
I was only African-American, sothey had diversity me.
And one of the dynamics that'sactually salient to this
(04:42):
conversation is, you know, Ireally should have been a
statistic, but not the statisticthat most people think of.
As a sophomore in high school Ifailed my own suicide attempt
and so I'm here today, you know,because of the dynamics of
understanding interculturalagility, but also part of some
(05:02):
of the dynamics of growing up ina setting that didn't have that
and even how I saw myselfactually almost led to me not
being here.
So it's super exciting to be inDubai with such wonderful people
and such a wonderful culture,learning together.
So my wife and I, tammy, wehave four children, so three
boys and one girl.
My wife is 100% Prussian,german, german is from Russia.
(05:26):
So if you take German and youmix it with chocolate, we have
four German chocolate children.
So that's just how it kind ofworks out.
But yeah, so I am really gladto be here.
I am a business consultant.
I've served with nonprofits,I'm an adjunct college professor
and graduate school professorand actually do a radio program
as well.
But my big thing is people.
(05:47):
I love people and I feel thatevery person has a story and
their stories are amazing.
So the ability to meet miraclesthat walk by us every day is
truly a privilege that sometimeswe don't fully recognize.
Marco Blankenburgh (06:02):
Well, I just listening to you that short
introduction.
I think we could spend a wholeepisode just talking about that.
Very intriguing and I recognizethat diversity, being different
, was very much part of yourlife from the very earliest
(06:23):
years of your life.
David Myles (06:24):
Yeah, I mean it really kind of kicked off at an
early time.
I remember really inkindergarten one day sitting
there and asking a kid if Icould play with them and he's
like no, and I'm like, well, whynot?
I'm in kindergarten.
He's like, well, you're then-word.
And I was like huh.
Well, all I knew is that ithurt.
I didn't fully understand whathad happened and remember going
(06:47):
home and talking with my momabout that, and as I'm older now
I can see the hurt of thatdynamic of people otherizing a
person, and so I would have thisexperience.
Growing up I had reallywonderful people as well, but
had some difficulties in thatarea that actually were a part
(07:08):
of this, part of my failedsuicide attempt as well.
So I've been kind of navigatingthis conversation of race and
ethnicity and interpersonalrelationships for pretty much my
life.
Yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (07:23):
So what is it now?
Two years ago that we connected, yeah, and he had the privilege
of walking through theintercultural agility
certification and maybe it wouldbe really good from your side
to actually hear you explainwhat it is.
Some of the audience might benew today.
(07:44):
So what is interculturalagility?
David Myles (07:48):
Man intercultural agility.
Well, first of all, I'll put itthis way, marco If people are
breathing and you're across fromanother person who's breathing
and you're committed to yourvisions, values, missions and
actually just want to see yourrelationships grow, I would say
having intercultural agility isa non-negotiable Wait a minute.
Marco Blankenburgh (08:09):
So you're saying this is for everyone, not
just when you fly from onecountry to another?
David Myles (08:18):
This is for everyone.
Marco Blankenburgh (08:19):
And so.
David Myles (08:19):
I go back to kind of.
You know it might seem kind ofbasic, but really I feel like if
a person is breathing andyou're across from another
person who's breathing and bothof you are trying to make some
sort of connection and have arelationship, understanding
intercultural agility, which isalso intercultural intelligence,
is a.
For me, it's a non-negotiableRight.
(08:41):
If this, if we truly want tohonor the people that we're with
and even ourselves, I feel likethis is paramount.
You know, one of the firstparagraphs in the disc, one of
the disc profiles that I did, itsaid about self-awareness and
(09:01):
that self-awareness and leaders,that people who are self-aware
are far more successful becausethey have an understanding who
they are and who they're not,and the things that they should
engage in, the things that theyshouldn't engage in.
And I would say like thisparticular area of intercultural
intelligence is paramount.
You know it used to be thatpeople thought IQ was the big
thing and then people said, well, eq, emotional intelligence,
(09:24):
which is very much important.
But I would say now,intercultural agility, which
helps with interculturalintelligence, is huge.
The renowned business managementperson, peter Drucker, he said
this.
He said that culture, trumpstrategy, matter of fact,
culture, each strategy for amonth.
So you can have the mostwonderful strategy that there is
(09:46):
.
But if your culture is toxic orjacked up or a hot mess, that
particular strategy and thestrategy could be something
within your family, because, asa person engages in ICI, they'll
find that you can be in thesame family with a person and
have different worldviews anddifferent cultural preferences
(10:08):
within that same family and so,you know so, in that type of
near immediate relationship andthe relationship and community
that you have with your largerfamily and community in the
areas of places where peoplemaybe connect, and civic, social
, religious settings, anddefinitely in the area where
most people spend the majorityof their time, which is work.
(10:28):
I mean we spend anywhere fromsix to 16 hours a day in a work
setting and you know, marco,we've talked about this before
that right now I could give you$20,000.
What I can't give you is thelast five minutes, and so if
(10:50):
we're investing in heavyrelationships with people, this
is mission critical.
Marco Blankenburgh (10:56):
So I want to pick up on something that you
said.
So this idea that even withinthe same home, people could
actually be culturally differentand, especially if they start
living their own lives and theycome back together again and
they compare notes, they'reactually on a different cultural
journey, and that's somethingthat's really important for us
(11:16):
at KnowledgeWorks, and that,this idea that we have a
personal cultural journey, thateach person is on.
At the same time, we haveaffiliations affiliation to our
family, affiliation to, maybe, aplace that we grew up at, an
affiliation in the form of raceor ethnicity or a passport that
(11:37):
we carry.
But, as you know, in the NorthAmerican context, the word race
is often used to create largegroups of people that fit under
a certain label.
What KnowledgeWorks has beentrying to say is we need to,
first and foremost, look athuman beings as unique, as being
(12:00):
on their own unique journey,having their own unique
experiences, and we need toconnect with that.
The technical word we use forit is self culture, self
cultural analysis.
Talk to me about how thatshifts the thinking, the way we
engage the mindset, if we thinkabout five major racial groups
(12:22):
in North America versus nowthinking about, no, that, yes, I
might have affiliation withthat, but let me set my mind to
treat you as a unique humanbeing.
I want to connect with you,with your story.
How does that shift how weconnect with one another?
David Myles (12:40):
Well, you know, for instance, being even in a North
American context, as Imentioned before, my wife's had
a Prussian German and when shedid her three colors of
worldview she actually hadhigher honor shame, which would
seem like, well, wait a minute.
And so the uniqueness of people.
I often, when I'm teaching orwhen I'm speaking, sometimes
(13:04):
I'll have people hold up theirthumb and I'll say look at your
thumb.
You know your thumb, not mythumb.
I'm looking at my thumb, youlook at yours.
But these ridges that are inyour thumb are formed at three
months inside your mother's womb.
And even if a person had anidentical twin, if we
fingerprinted you and one of youwas in Argentina and the other
one was in Australia, we canstill separate you because of
the uniqueness of yourthumbprint being uniquely yours.
(13:27):
And so these large categoriesof race sometimes.
Well, let me just say thisyou've heard me say this on the
topic of race, which is peoplewill say it's a perennial issue.
It's a conversation that manypeople have an opinion on, but
(13:49):
one of the things that I feel isthat we kind of get ahead of
ourselves sometimes getting intothe conversation of race and we
don't honor people by equippingthem to have these types of
conversations, difficultconversations, but especially
this conversation and whathappens is is that when people
(14:10):
get into these conversationsthey end up getting triggered,
and this is more into theneurological part of it.
But it trips our limbic systemand it causes us to do fight,
flight and freeze and because ofthat we kind of map out this
neurological pathway.
That's equal to pain andthere's a part of us that says I
don't want to do this again.
Matter of fact, we becomefearful of it.
(14:33):
And you know there's a book byJane Burka and Lenora Yoon.
It's a book on procrastination,and there's this fascinating
part in it where they would sayif you stick out your hand and
you touch your hand, there's athing called just noticeable
difference, and this registerregisters when you touch your
hand in five to 600 milliseconds.
(14:54):
But they note that fearregisters in 14 milliseconds.
And so that fear thing is sovery strong and as people begin
to learn ICI, when they begin tolearn worldviews, when they
begin to learn culturalpreferences, it really gives
them ability to almost put,almost to put a buffer gap in
(15:15):
there, because you have aperspective, you have a vantage
point, you have a way of lookingat things, to be less triggered
and also to walk that journeyas a leader, leading others and
also being led by others.
Marco Blankenburgh (15:29):
Wow.
So in other words, you'resaying most people might not be
equipped enough to have theconversations.
So you're saying you need toactually reverse, go back to
basics, almost.
David Myles (15:43):
Yeah, I would say that, if I can speak
specifically to one thing andthis is not this is not a it's
not a criticism, but like beinga certified level two
practitioner with interculturalintelligence, with knowledge
(16:03):
works, also being anintercultural inventory, an IDI
qualified administrator a numberof people have actually
experienced that in leadershipsettings.
Now, one of the things with IDIis that it actually takes an
X-ray, and so because it takesan X-ray, you know when you look
(16:25):
at an X-ray period it doesn'toften look that pretty all right
, it doesn't give the fullcontext.
So sometimes when people gointo an IDI setting, they'll see
things and some folks will be alittle bit reactionary.
So from our North Americanframework of Innocence Guild,
I've had students where we'vetaught at the university that
I'm at and they've reacted like,oh my gosh, you're saying I'm a
(16:48):
racist or you're saying I'm abad person.
Because they look at thisparticular assessment and tool
that gives an X-ray and thenit's like, well, something's got
to be wrong with this.
And because people get triggeredand reactionary, then they're
like, whoa, I never want to dothis, so that any conversation
that comes up.
Now again, I'm dealing withcollege students.
So they're going to graduateand they're going to go work at
(17:12):
some company or in relationshipwith other people, and they have
had this experience.
So that guess what?
When you're wanting to helpgrow your team and this topic
comes up, what do you think isgoing to happen?
They get triggered again, right?
So what ICI does is that itbrings people back to a common,
shared humanity and it helpsthem to see the richness of
(17:35):
culture that exists in them andaround them and that, in essence
, gives them tools so that, whenthey actually engage with an
IDI or some other type ofassessment tool or in some type
of workshop or training thing,they now have tools to see their
humanity and even how they'rereacting to, something that
(17:58):
allows them to stay on thepathway towards growth and
towards what people areintending to do.
Marco Blankenburgh (18:04):
Yeah, and even just the way you're talking
about it, I can see you'repassionate and animated about
this.
So, before we talk aboutapplication, I'm just curious
how did going through thecertification, how did that
first level of application, howdid that impact you personally?
What did it do to you?
David Myles (18:25):
Well, for one.
What it did is that you knowhow do you put it being here in
Dubai, where I'm staying at inthe morning, I have these shades
and on the other side there'sthese thin shades, and then
there's these room darkeningshades and outside my window is
(18:45):
the beer, the Bur Khalifa.
Yeah, bur Khalifa.
So I'm not saying exactlycorrect.
What I would say is that Icould wake up in the morning and
I can see that there's lightcoming from around the shades
and stuff.
What I see I did for me is thatbeing that same person in that
environment was literallyopening the shades and saying,
(19:07):
oh my goodness, there's so muchlight that's been shined on
things and shown on things thatI've experienced interactions,
relationships and the like, andit really does give you a new
set of lenses.
I mean not to overuse thisillustration or metaphor, but it
(19:28):
really is the red pill, bluepill thing.
I mean like, and one of theincredible leaders and
facilitators, hassan, whopresented, I think he said
something like once you're anICI and once you see things
through those lenses, youliterally can't unsee them, and
(19:51):
so when you walk into rooms orwhen you're having conversations
with people, it so equips youand it also helps you deal with
the various pain points.
So it gave language to a lot ofpain points on conversations, a
race, that seemingly were goingnowhere in the past, and it
really helped me to understand,even for some people, their
(20:14):
engagement Mark I've mentionedthis before Sometimes we
attribute to character andmotive things that can be
explained by wiring andtemperament, and so how ICI
changed for me was some of theconversations that I was having
with people.
It wasn't necessarily that theywere their motives or even their
(20:35):
character that a person may beinclined to make that assumption
.
And again, for those who don'tknow, they're making assumptions
before doing DIR, which isdescribe, interpret and respond,
which is another thing.
Again, shameless plug.
This is why, if you'relistening to this podcast and
you've not gone through the ICIcertification, I really would
(20:56):
say that you need to do itbefore the end of the calendar
year or make sure that you do itwithin the first quarter of the
next year.
That's just me personally.
Again, my reasoning is kind ofsimple.
Again, marko, if you'rebreathing and the person across
from you is breathing, that's areally good reason for you to be
doing ICI.
So this gave tools when I washaving conversations with people
(21:18):
to say, wow, okay, I'munderstanding more, without
pitch-a-holing people.
What I felt that it did is thatit gave me the language and the
tools and the perspective andthe insight actually to better
honor the person sitting acrossfrom me.
Marco Blankenburgh (21:44):
So let's see if we make this practical.
So you mentioned the DIRdescribe, interpret, respond
which is one of ourintercultural perception
management tools.
There's other tools we couldtalk about, but maybe top of
mind, any story that you canthink of.
Any specific conversation mightnot want to mention the name of
(22:06):
the person totally leave thatup to you but where you were
able to use some of these toolsand where it shifted the way you
engage with one another couldbe a group, could be a person,
any stories that come to mind.
David Myles (22:20):
Yeah, actually one just popped, as you were in your
question that came to mind.
In the states, in theparticular faith community that
I was a part of, that dealt withevangelicalism.
There's been this reallyinteresting dynamic with race
and politics and those thingsand even just a way of thinking.
So one day I was actuallyteaching a class with an older
(22:43):
population and you have tounderstand, I once taught a
class that dealt with race andethnicity and honoring people
and, interestingly enough, whenI finished teaching that class,
literally half the people leftour church because they so
struggled with this.
(23:03):
So I was asked to come back inand teach and I remember
teaching this particular class.
It was two weeks.
I spent the first week actuallyteaching on culture and the
three colors of worldview, andthis is an older population.
(23:24):
And I'll just say what.
The leader of the class came tome after day one and said wow,
said David, this was reallyamazing, thank you so much for
coming in and teach.
I was honored to come and saidhe goes.
No, our people really neededthis.
And I said, well, this is greatgrowing together with one of
the.
He goes.
(23:44):
No, you have to understand,this particular group has a
steady diet of a certain type ofmedia and so they're super
resistant to these types ofconversations.
And I was like, wow, so we gotinto that conversation so that
the very next week, refreshingon the three colors of worldview
(24:06):
and culture and then jumpingactually into the conversation
on race and ethnicity, therewere people in the class who
were like.
They were like amen, yes, thatneeds to change.
And one person I knew that hadwrestled with it.
They were like can you say thatagain?
Like people need to hear this.
And I would say what hadhappened is in helping them walk
(24:29):
into the shared culture that wehad and honoring and caring for
them and for us all being ableto have conversations around our
shared humanity and for them todo it at their tables.
Then, when we got into aconversation that previously
would have been like match togasoline, it actually became
like this very, we need to leanin, and so the practical
(24:54):
application is I haveconsistently found, by equipping
or giving or sharing some ofthis framework and tools, that
has actually helped people leanin.
It's actually what DIRR doesdescribe, interpret, respond.
So often we jump tointerpretation and then we
(25:15):
respond emotionally, we don'tdescribe.
So what ICI does it actuallygives that buffer space for a
person actually to describe notonly what they're looking at but
even themselves, so that whenthey jump to interpreting and
responding, even when theyrespond, they have a more, shall
(25:36):
I say, a more substantive andstable platform from which to do
that and even better understandwhere they are at, they engage
in a better self differentiation, which is kind of a counseling
term to be able to engage that,so they don't become so mesh and
reactive, so that I mean likethat's literally the thing when
I tell business leaders and Iwork with businesses and
(25:59):
non-profits and universitiesagain the earlier tool that I
mentioned, idi great tool Ifleft to me and to budget and I
don't use this word pretty muchanytime, but I can almost say
strongly, if left to me, I wouldnever do an IDI without doing
(26:20):
ICI.
Marco Blankenburgh (26:22):
And you would flip the sweet sequence.
Yes, that's what.
David Myles (26:27):
So I would not do intercultural development
inventory.
It's great as a tool becauseit's an x-ray.
I would not do that particularassessment If left to me and if
resourcing was not an issue.
I would not do that withoutfirst and primarily doing
intercultural intelligence.
Marco Blankenburgh (26:46):
And the example you just gave, I think,
is a beautiful example oftalking.
You mentioned fight flight tofreeze those trigger moments.
If people have had bad memoriesor bad experiences with tough
conversations like race and whatyou just explained the same
group in the past, half of themwalk out or a third of them walk
(27:07):
out and then bringing or almostinjecting ICI into the equation
, then they lean in, they stayin the conversation, they want
to be there.
That's a profound shift.
So when you could you think ofother ways, because it's
sometimes hard to imagine.
(27:27):
Okay, I hear David is excitedabout it, I can hear that he's
been able to impact.
But how do you take practicalsteps to get to that point where
people start leaning in andthey say they stop saying, well,
I was forced to be here, butinstead they now say, wow, this
(27:47):
is profound, I want to be here.
But how do you take those smallsteps?
Because you had the luxury oflike two weeks with people.
You don't always get that right.
So what are the small steps youwould advise people to take to
eventually to bring ICI toolswork with people like yourselves
?
Or, as you mentioned, thanksfor the plug, get certified
(28:08):
yourself.
But what could they do to takesmall steps in that direction?
David Myles (28:13):
Well, one of the things I want to say first is
and even with your question is,sometimes we think that a person
is actually starting at zero,like what are the steps that
they could start from here toget to there?
And what I want to say thathappens with ICI is that you, in
some ways, have already beenoperating this way in your life.
(28:36):
It's just that the curtainshaven't been opened to shine on
the muscles that you're alreadyusing and that you used in other
ways to do that, to understanddifferent cultures I mean even
within your own family, becausenot every person in your own
family is that way.
So you've had to pivot, you'vehad to adjust, you've had to
explain things differently,you've had to have patience,
(28:59):
you've had to clarify andclarify some more.
So in this particular situationyeah, having two weeks of the
class, but I'll use ICI in aconversation that may only be a
few minutes and what I'll do isactually take some of the
overviews of the three colors ofworldview.
Marco Blankenburgh (29:24):
And so even how?
David Myles (29:25):
we kind of explain it, that innocence, guilt, that
there could be some rules anddoing right and the goal being
innocent and in a Westerncontext, not completely because
there are people in the West whodon't feel this way, but saying
we have lots of legal contractsand that's something that's
really huge for us.
(29:46):
And then talking about somethings with honor, shame,
cultures, and I'll give someillustrations that for people in
North America, they can go backand look at things that have
happened in our culture as wellas in media, where they're like
oh yeah, I remember this eventand oh yeah, I was kind of
confused on why this presidentof this company apologized for
(30:09):
the actions of one person.
That didn't make sense to mebecause I thought to myself well
, that person didn't do anythingwrong, and now you're able to
talk about innocence, guilt,which is right and wrong,
instead of understanding honorand shame, which was belonging
and what it did to the community.
(30:29):
And so what it does is thatwhat I want to say?
This is super helpful becauseit almost like Fills in gaps or
it almost puts the mortar inbetween the gaps and you start
saying, oh, wow, and so All myconversations, an extra majority
(30:52):
of my conversations aren'tlengthy conversations, but I'm
still engaging within theframework of culture and
Intercultural intelligence and Ithink one of the other things
mark on this is because, becauseof how this is is formatted in
a framework, you're able to haveentry points.
I'm not sure if this wasintended, but, for example, the
(31:14):
12 dimensions of culturalpreference the first one is
growth and then one is peopleand the other one is material.
So when I'm working withC-suite executives, I'll say
I'll explain that to him.
I said so.
How's that ever been word?
Where you're?
You're your director of sales,but your director, rightee, you,
you've had to have thispain-point Conversation yeah,
(31:37):
because the person's like well,you know what, if we're really
committed to the company's value, we really want to succeed.
We need to build out ourinfrastructure.
You know we need to change ourCRM.
You know our contact, you knowjust our manager.
And the other person's like no,we need to invest in our people
.
Yeah, okay, there's no race.
Sometimes in that particularconversation like in my area,
where it's a lot of skin andavian people Mm-hmm, that person
(31:59):
can be in a company and thatC-suite where there are no
people of color and even couldbe no women in that city, and
that conversation, that painpoint is real.
And then, when you actuallybegin to talk about 12
dimensions of culture With that,they're like oh well, wait a
minute.
Okay, and because they are ableto see their own experience,
(32:22):
because they're able to seetheir own pain points with this
and their own things withleading, it actually becomes a.
It becomes like it becomes acup of cold water on a hot day.
Yeah, because people, all anumber of people, have had these
pain point issues and leadingand working in these settings
(32:43):
and what's one of the thingsthat actually keeps people from
engaging they're like I don'tknow what to do, like what do we
even do with this, like, wheredo we even start?
Yeah, so all those variousthings that leaders say all the
time, when they're able to cometo three colors of worldview and
at least have a degree ofActually putting containers
where all that messy spaghettiis going all over the place, and
(33:06):
it just kind of feels like it'swell.
Yeah, it allows you to actuallyput it in a container so that,
as you're making sauce, you canactually pour that in there and
people can actually have a mealthat they actually share
together.
Yeah, and then something that'stypically messy, yeah, and
sticky, actually becomessomething that builds community
and has a purpose.
Marco Blankenburgh (33:24):
Yeah, wow, there's so many touch points
there.
So the one thing I'm thinkingof is, as I'm listening to you,
that tools like the culturalmapping inventory using that to
to give people personalunderstanding, but also it gives
people a neutral language, soit's not judgmental, mm-hmm,
(33:46):
it's a neutral language.
And the other thing is thatonce you can name something, it
opens up a door forunderstanding, conversation,
decision-making, which theexample you just gave about
growth.
David Myles (34:01):
Yeah, so, yeah.
So one of those things, marco,you know, one of the differences
with, with knowledge, works,materials, that it's, it's you
have psychosomatic and you havecultural.
So, like the uniqueness of ofICI, through cultures, of
worldview and the Dimensions, isthat this is dealing with an
(34:23):
area that often gets overlookedBecause, like for the leader or
the person listening to me, ifwe start putting out things like
Myers-Brack Strength findersdisc, you know, 360 review,
people start thinking to oh yeah, you know what this really
helped me as a leader.
What did it do?
(34:43):
It gave a greaterself-awareness of who you are
right and also who you're not,you know.
And so, which is equallyimportant, it's equally
important.
So I for the for the largerworld, when, when you say
football, they're talking aboutsoccer, you know, in the
American context, we're talkingabout Americanized football with
pads, mm-hmm, and where I liveat, the Minnesota Vikings are a
(35:07):
football team and they have thisone guy who's like one of the
top receivers in the NFL namedJustin Jefferson.
So, in my particular, becauseagain, the other thing about ICI
, it helps you understandcontext.
So even what I just talkedabout the context of the world
when it comes to football andthe context of America and now
even the regional context ofwhere I live.
(35:29):
Well, I'll share with someoneyou know, justin Jefferson.
He's a wonderful, wide receiver.
He makes a horrible left guardMm-hmm, mm-hmm.
And it doesn't matter how niceof a person that he is, if you
put him in a left guardsituation, that's gonna be a
recipe for disaster, right?
Because there's a certainself-awareness and there's also
an understanding of His skillsets and even the things that
(35:52):
make him him.
Yeah, that actually leads tothe potential for being
successful and also leads to oneof your major Players actually
having broken bones and beingout for the season.
Now, on the psychosomatic way,because people are able to look
at that and say, okay, here'ssome things of which I'm strong
on my D in my disc, which alsomeans I might be dropping balls
(36:15):
that the S and C parts of ourteam, that like studying us and
conscientiousness andUnderstanding about yourself.
Well, what I see I does is itgives that to you in a culture,
mmm-hmm.
And again, I love how Ming JinTong, one of the ICI
Practitioners, shares aboutculture, cultures, the lenses
(36:36):
that we look through.
We don't look at our glasslenses, we look through them,
yeah, and so ICI helps you asyou look through culture.
Remember Drucker said cultureTrump strategy.
Sometimes people can't evenname their culture.
Yeah, yeah, so this providestools, practical tools.
Yeah, again, to go back to whatI said, it allows you to take
(36:57):
the blind shades and open themup and shine a light, and I I've
strongly feel that, as peopleengage this, it, it has an as
you can talk, like metaphors itreally will.
It will change their their lifefrom seeing things in black and
white To seeing things in 8kTechnicolor, full surround sound
(37:24):
.
Well, well, like it really does.
And actually last night becauseMing Jin Tong's the one who
actually Introduced this to mewe were walking and I actually
told him.
I said, ming Jin, thank you somuch, like this is and I'm not
saying this because you're infront of me, but this has been
one of the greatest gifts givento me and being able to navigate
(37:45):
the conversations on race,because I've had a lot of
painful conversations, okay, andI've gone through a lot of
different pain points.
I've led in a number ofdifferent situations where
things have gone well or thingshave gone bad, and the one thing
is I wish that I would have hadsome of this understanding Even
earlier as a leader, right,right.
And so now in the last coupleyears of having these new lenses
(38:08):
and having this insight, it'sreally been exciting.
It's been really neat to seethe conversations and even
having self-care for myself,mm-hmm.
Marco Blankenburgh (38:16):
Yeah, so you mentioned in a number of ways
that it starts really with, youknow, having those blinds open
up and and shed light on you, onyourself, your own journey in
life and what's happening withyou as a person.
So that self-awareness isfundamental.
Now, very, you know, one of theways that I've seen people
(38:40):
think about self-awareness is,for instance, through In
Discovering more and more biases.
For instance, at the momentthere, I think the clock is
ticking at a hundred and eightyeight biases that they've
identified.
Yeah, so I don't remember.
Maybe, even if you asked me onthe spot, can you name 20, and I
(39:01):
don't think I could.
And it's important that westart to recognize that these
exist.
But, at the same time, thatlevel of self-awareness is so
fundamental, especially in theconversation around race.
Talk to me about how theIntercultural agility approach
(39:22):
can help people navigate biasesand stereotypes In, not just in
a better way, but in a way thatrelationship is built.
David Myles (39:31):
Yeah, I come back to the fact of saying what it
does is.
It helps us to enter into ourshared humanity and even the,
the important part of living incommunity, which etymology is
common unity.
Okay, so On the bias parts, ahundred and eighty eight, my
(39:53):
wife Tammy will say you knowit's, it's easier track flies
with honey than in its vinegar.
Okay, so if we start off withthe biases and the negative,
yeah, and almost coming from aplace of scarcity and deficiency
, how much do people want tocontinue going at my people?
You've heard leaders say like Ireally don't have a
conversation about race becauseit's just gonna be about how bad
(40:15):
of a person that I am, okay andso like.
So they already feel likethey're coming to fish into it,
only to be made more deficientand so it begins this attack.
So so I again say this wholeaspect of shared humanity and
actually journeying together,and Actually not only journeying
(40:35):
together, then being able toappreciate the things with one
another, marco, one of thethings that I I feel that's been
lost with kind of these Sociallogical constructs of race,
especially as it comes to blackand white.
But even for for, and theAmerican context with European
Americans is all asked somethings about just their last
(40:58):
name and Like explaining theirlast name, and like where's that
come from?
And a lot of people drop blanksBecause in ways because it's
just like flat paint whitepeople lost the texture, the
tenor, the beauty of ethnicityBecause it's been truncated to
this thing called white.
So there's also there's often afreeing up of the other person.
(41:21):
I've had students go away whohad broken relationships.
I remember this one guy she hada broken relationship with her
mom went home and because Iasked her something About their
last name on a monotology thestudy of surnames and she wasn't
really sure.
So she went home and asked hermom.
She had a broken relationshipand instead of being at each
other, they were beside eachother trying to solve something.
(41:42):
And then mom said well, weshould talk to grandma.
Well, mom had a brokenrelationship with grandma.
So then you have these threepeople sitting around a table
having a conversation about theculture of their surname Wow,
and they weren't fighting, andthis guy came back to class in
tears.
So there's no black and whitethere.
That's just a family andlooking at some of the culture
(42:03):
things.
So the practical ways willbecome as as diverse as the
relationships and interactionsthat people already currently
have.
Marco Blankenburgh (42:14):
Yeah, so starting with that shared
humanity, having a few moretools in your toolbox to
actually have that conversationand keep the conversation going.
But I also see that ultimatelythat that's a beautiful starting
point but, as the familyexample you just gave,
eventually relationship needs tobe restored.
(42:35):
We talk a lot about creatingthe third cultural space,
creating culture together, andto me, that's what I always look
for or drive towards, no matterif I have one minute with a
person or I get to spend a wholeyear of doing a whole bunch of
stuff.
How do you see the shift there?
(42:58):
Because what I often find ispeople are innocence,
guilt-oriented folks, rightWrong-oriented folks.
They want to make sure they seethe issue right and they spend
a lot of time talking anddebating that, and then they
want to fix the issue, but theydon't always want to then be in
(43:18):
relationship afterwards.
David Myles (43:20):
Yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (43:21):
So talk to me about this idea of, okay, we
deal with our biases and ourstereotypes from almost a
backdoor through the backdoor ofhumanity, the backdoor of being
in conversation, learning evenabout our surname, and that
brings people together and then,as a result of that, the
(43:42):
ultimate step really is thatthat relationship is restored
and culture gets createdtogether.
How do you see that add to thedialogue around race?
David Myles (43:54):
Well, I think one thing is that it helps that for
people to see that it's not thatthe only conversation is about
race, and that's another thingthat kind of gets truncated as
well, so that you actually havea more full-orbed view of a
(44:14):
person and a lot of other placeseven to go in developing the
relationship and theunderstanding of self and
understanding of that person andthem with you, so that if
there's this one aspect of raceyou can actually have a
conversation.
So in marriage counseling theywould say an unresolved issue,
(44:38):
like a person could havesomething and it's not as big as
an issue.
But if there's no other lifearound it, that issue seems much
larger and all-consuming thanit really is because things have
been reduced to primarily thisand maybe a couple other things.
And so when you understand thatthere's more to a person, that
(45:04):
also if you're creating a thirdcultural space, that means
people are bringing somethinginto that space and even we're
having an understanding.
What ICI does is it helps youunderstand another person's
worldview and even part of theircultural preferences.
Well, as that person islearning that about themselves,
you're actually learning theauthentic them.
(45:25):
That's beautiful.
So the authentic them whopreviously maybe was more
reactionary on conversations ofrace, but now understands things
culturally, on worldview andthese parts of them that is
unknown and unseen to themselves.
And there's this thing aboutfear of the unknown.
So now we're back at fear andas you uncover those things, it
(45:50):
allows that person more fully toenter in and if you have
something that's shared, thatactually helps you to come
together too.
That's why people in medicalschool they can form these
lifelong relationships or ingraduate school or any sort of
things, or even through aparticular event that's happened
(46:11):
because they have this sharedexperience together and they
live this together.
Though they're diverse anddifferent people, they've shared
those things together.
This helps people to have anunderstanding of what's already
shared but sometimes just getsoverlooked.
And again they already have thetools and muscles.
They're already using thosethings, Just sometimes are aware
(46:35):
that they've been using thosethings.
And it's just slightly tweaking.
And I mean, like Marco, if youhave to come with a slide ruler
and a pencil to solving a majorExcel spreadsheet type of thing,
if you're coming bringing yourcomputer and an IT person and
(46:56):
someone who really understandsExcel, or you're coming by
yourself with a chalk and penand a slide ruler, how confident
are you feeling to engage theconversation?
Yeah, absolutely.
Now notice I didn't sayanything about race, but I gave
an illustration that deals withreal life, that a person could
say, oh well, yeah, of courseI'm going to feel Okay, now
scratch the conversation of mathand Excel and all these sort of
(47:18):
things, Now bring in theconversation of culture and race
.
Marco Blankenburgh (47:22):
Now, one thing that goes through my mind
as you're speaking is that therelationship-centric approach
very often results in a numberof things.
First of all, we want to betogether, but also the issues
that we thought were between usnow get perspective, and I've
(47:47):
seen often that those issueseither shrink or disappear
altogether.
But also if there are stillissues between us, if we now
have relationship, then it'sactually possible to discuss
them.
So one thing that we'vediscovered through the three
colours of worldview is that,you know, innocence,
(48:08):
guilt-oriented, right,wrong-oriented people have a
tendency to put the problem atthe centre of resolving the
conflict, While what we'velearned from many parts of the
world working in over 70countries is many cultures put
their relationship at the centre, they work on the relationship.
They don't pretend that problemdoesn't exist, but they work on
(48:31):
the relationship.
And then in that, even if therelationship has grown just a
little bit, they then see if theproblem could be addressed If
the relationship is there, andif it's, just strong enough.
Let's bring the problem back inand see if we are able to
discuss it.
How does that shift from beingproblem-centric and we need to
(48:54):
understand the problem and weneed to understand it in the
same way before we can sort ofmake a go away?
First is relationship-centric.
How would that potentiallyshift things and add to the
conversation of?
David Myles (49:07):
race.
Well, the first thing thatyou're saying even by investing
in the relationship, the veryinvestment in the relationship
brings a greater worth to therelationship and it removes it
from being simply transactional,because sometimes the right and
wrong approach and even thelegal contract that almost
(49:28):
depersonalizes things.
So a person is sitting therethinking, well, do I want to
take the time for this, is thisreally worth my time?
And so they're looking at itthrough this right and wrong
aspect and wanting almost toprotect self in the fact again
keeping innocence at all costs,almost keeping innocence at all
(49:50):
costs, even to the jeopardizingof the relationship.
I've seen that as well, One ofthe things that was super
fascinating about Hassan's studywas looking at those or
actually Bart, his teaching onhigh performance.
(50:13):
High performance, interculturalmarriages and what builds and
breaks trust.
And I came back to this issueof the person apologizing and
admitting mistakes.
Okay, like that, and aninnocence guilt type of thing.
It's like oh no, I'm going tomake sure that I'm right in this
, and if I'm not right in this,then there's someone else to
(50:36):
blame.
So I'm still not wrong.
And if there's anything wrongis that I didn't realize how
wrong the other person I trustedto do this, Whereas in
apologizing, that is dealingwith the relationship and saying
I care about the relationship.
So when you become relationshipfocused, you're investing in
the relationship and youactually begin to see that the
(50:58):
relationship is more than thisone issue and that there's so
much more to develop and keepand nurture than this one issue
and the other one.
It's because this issue growsto be the main thing and again
it becomes a point of pain.
Marco Blankenburgh (51:14):
Well, either I want to fight Okay, I want to
freeze or I want to flee, yeah,and then emotions start to take
over, and then conversation itgets killed, basically.
And the relationship getskilled in the process.
David Myles (51:30):
Yep, and so that's one of the things that I'm it's
interesting enough in navigatingbecause I also do conflict
resolution.
But I have students, I haveleaders where they have family,
that's, in a place where there'sliterally no people of color
and their families are brokenover this conversation of race
(51:50):
or politics or these variousthings.
Because this framework and sonow back to I want this is
really important.
I do a number of things withconflict resolution, working
with C-suite executives andthings, and even families, and
I've sometimes, to the surpriseof people, said, you know,
(52:11):
you're really kind of seemingknuckle to knuckle and the truth
of the matter is you're reallya lot closer, you think, to
actually clasping hands.
Yeah, and one of the firstthings that I do, especially
when I'm working with leadersand I've been called in to do
conflict mediation, is I'llactually assess the two people
(52:35):
and so for one particularsituation that I was in, those
people had familiarity andactually gone through ICI types
of things.
So it was really interestingunderstanding these two leaders,
then also looking at some oftheir other leadership styles
and also getting to know them asa person again, relationship,
not just task and when wefinished I was like, oh wow, as
(52:59):
I was preparing, I'm like, oh,wow, this is yeah, this makes
sense on how you guys havemissed each other, right, right.
And so, marco, we got into itand we began having this
conversation and being able todiffuse Innocence, guilt, being
able to diffuse some parts thatcould have went wayward on honor
, shame and even power fear, andactually keep the relationship
(53:21):
intact.
You know how that meeting ended.
It ended with me leaving andthese two people in tears
apologizing to each otherBeautiful.
And then scheduling lunch.
Wow, because what they thoughtwas actually opposites, they
actually found they were so muchon the same page.
One was speaking Portuguese,the other one was speaking
Swahili, but with what ICI didand with an understanding that
(53:44):
actually provided a sharedlanguage that translated all of
that for both of them and theyactually didn't jeopardize the
relationship and, to betransparent, without sharing any
information, Both of them hadcome to me separately and were
ready to resign.
Wow, because they cared so muchabout the mission that they
didn't want to hurt that, butthe conflict that they were
(54:04):
having.
They were like, yeah and wow, Imean the amount of leadership,
personal, relational capitalthat this group almost lost
because of missing each other,but them also having the
language to come back to themand say do you remember doing
your ICI?
(54:24):
Okay, so how does looking backat your own report, how does
your particular way of handlingthe cultural preferences versus
conceal and reveal the oneperson?
They were very much a reveal.
The other person that they werehaving conflict was more
concealed, mm-hmm.
And so they were attributingthat person being cold and not
(54:46):
caring.
Because they conceal again whatI say earlier we attribute to
character and motive, somethings that can be described by
temperament and wiring andculture Mm-hmm.
And when that person began tohave a conversation,
relationship and understand, ohno, I actually care about you, I
just don't necessarily Shareeverything.
Again to another part of the12-dimension is your work
(55:08):
relationship situational oruniversal?
Mm-hmm.
For the one person who wasrevealed, they were also very
universal relationship.
For the concealed person, theywere also situational.
So work was work and outside ofwork there was that same
relationship didn't carry overbeyond work, yeah, so that the
person that was left to makeassumptions, which is now the
(55:32):
interpret response, withoutactually describing that there's
a concealed reveal, a universalsituational, an honor, shame,
innocence, guilt, so from fromBoth wanting to resign, to
actually restoring relationship,having lunch and Continuing and
(55:53):
still continue to grow theirrelationship.
And and also, both of them wereoh my goodness, they're both
phenomenal leaders and both ofthem so needed and Contributing
to the success of what'shappening with this group.
Mm-hmm, so that you know, theyalmost peeled off.
(56:13):
Now here here's another part.
Because the CEO had actuallygone through ICI and was
familiar not only with the threecolors of worldview and culture
, but the 12 dimensions ofpreference.
That person also wasspearheading at this issue.
They were wanting it resolvedand Not even not from a right
(56:35):
wrong, and even being careful tomake sure that they weren't
doing shame Because they had the, they had positional authority,
right.
So that person even being ableto have those conversations with
those various leaders, to stillhonor them as leaders, to still
engage on this particular thing, to bring it to a point of
(56:55):
resolution, but stillunderstanding all of these
various variables that sometimesgo unspoken and people are just
left to interpret them and weinterpret them, leading to not
trip our Olympic system.
So meaning we're we'reinterpreting them Most often
from a negative perspective.
Yeah, then a positiveperspective.
Marco Blankenburgh (57:17):
Wow, we could talk for hours, I think,
yeah, I really have enjoyed thisconversation and I I'm sure
that, if people want to reachout to you, we didn't even say
that you're actually inMinneapolis.
Yes but you are, so people wantto reach out to you.
(57:37):
David's contact details will bein the notes section of the
podcast that you found, so he'savailable from a coaching point
of view, from a learning andenvironment point of view, an
advisory, consulting point ofview.
So reach out to him if he's inyour part of the world,
especially, I would say, when itcomes to applying intercultural
(58:01):
agility into the Challengingtopics of race.
If you give you, thank you forbeautiful examples on on how
you've done that and I I'mreally excited about the work
you're doing and I look forwardto maybe comparing notes in
there in the Not-to-distantfuture and hear more of these
(58:22):
beautiful stories of, yeah, howyou're making a difference in
the world.
David Myles (58:26):
So thank you for joining this well, thank you and
Marco, thank you for you andyour team's work, and I mean
like for those listening.
I'm not saying this becauseMarco's in front of me.
If you, if you call me andcontact me, or if you ask my
wife and people who work with me, you're gonna hear them say he
talks about this, he leads andhe uses this on a daily
(58:48):
one-on-one to group interaction.
It really did revolutionize,especially on this issue of race
in the American context.
Oh, it is.
It's.
It's helped me and others stayengaged in ways and actually to
diffuse certain things that costpeople to have these bad
(59:10):
reactions.
So again, marco hasn't asked meto say this.
You know I'm not paid for anyof these things.
I Personally, as a testimony,want to stress to your listeners
, you know, to really stop to goto knowledge works website,
read up on these things, haveconversations with Marco and his
(59:31):
team and and I'm I'm certifiedin a number of different
Assessments, so I'm not, youknow, so coming from doing
assessments and administeringassessments and working with
leaders and stuff like this.
This is one of the key toolAssessments and things that I
practice in my work.
Marco Blankenburgh (59:50):
Thank you.
Thank you, david, for thisfantastic conversation.
Thank you, marco, and we lookforward to hearing more about
you from you in the future.
And listeners, please reach outto David and start connecting
and interfacing with him.
Thank you so much.
David Myles (01:00:06):
Thank you.
Marco Blankenburgh (01:00:06):
Marco, thank you so much for joining us for
this episode of the culturalagility podcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,share it with someone.
Best way to help us out is byleaving a review on your
favorite podcast app or channelor Forward and recommend this
podcast people around you.
(01:00:26):
As always, if any of the topicswe discussed today intrigue you
, you will find links toarticles Discussing them in
greater depth in the podcastnotes.
If you would like to learn moreabout intercultural
intelligence and how you canbecome more culturally agile,
you can find more informationand hundreds of articles at
(01:00:47):
Knowledgeworkscom.
A special thanks to JasonCarter for composing the music
on this podcast and to the wholeKnowledgeworks team for making
this Podcast a success.
Thank you, nita Rodriguez, araAziz-Bakyan, rajitha Raj, and
thanks to Vip and George foraudio production, rosalind Raj
(01:01:08):
for scheduling and Caleb Straussfor marketing and helping
produce this podcast.
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