September 18, 2023 • 58 mins
"Power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely." Lord Acton made this statement in 1887 and it still informs our view of power today.
But is power all bad? Is there any beauty in it? If we have power, what do we do with it? Are hierarchical cultures based on power, "bad"?
Through these questions and many more, Marco and Ming-Jinn guide you in this exciting and enlightening deep dive into the nature of power. They leave us with a clear, insightful path forward to engage cultures driven by a Power/Fear worldview in a way that leads to the empowerment of everyone involved.
You can reach out to Ming-Jinn at ming-jinn@knowledgeworkx.com
In this episode, you will learn:
-- What is beautiful about power
-- How to use power to empower and create safety for the people around you
-- The influence of power on all three cultural worldview drivers
| Learn More about:
-- The Beauty of Power (http://kwx.fyi/beauty-of-power)
-- Empowerment in Coaching (http://kwx.fyi/empower-in-coaching)
-- Discovering the Power-Fear Cultural Paradigm (http://kwx.fyi/discovering-power-fear)
-- Looking for a book to take your cultural agility to the next step, check out the Ultimate Intercultural Question Book brought to you by KnowledgeWorkx.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ming-Jinn Tong (00:00):
And when people are given protection from fear
by their leaders, they will beable to really unleash, unlock
and deliver some incrediblyunique, incredibly fresh,
incredibly powerful gifts forthe organization.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:32):
Welcome to the cultural agility podcast,
where we explore the stories ofsome of the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world, to help you
become culturally agile, andsucceed in today's culturally
complex world, I'm your host,Marco Blankenburg, international
director of knowledge works,where every day we help
(00:52):
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world. Welcomeonce again to another episode of
the love Korean Cultural agilitypodcast. And I'm very intrigued
by the topic of today, which isall about power. And we're gonna
(01:13):
be talking about power with MingJin Tang, who is not a stranger
to the unlocking culturalagility podcast. And it's so
good to have you back again,Legion.
Ming-Jinn Tong (01:24):
It's great to be here. Yeah, very excited. I'm so
excited to dig into all thesewonderful questions.
Marco Blankenburgh (01:29):
I'm afraid that this topic 50 minutes or 45
minutes won't be enough. Solet's see where we land.
Ming-Jinn Tong (01:37):
We'll talk quick Marco.
Marco Blankenburgh (01:39):
Well, some people this might be the first
time they hear you on ourpodcast channel. So it would
still be great if you couldintroduce yourself to new
listeners.
Ming-Jinn Tong (01:51):
Yeah, fantastic.
So yep. My name is Ming Qian,and I live here in Minneapolis,
Minnesota, and Marco, I've knownyou now for 13 years, I can't
believe I've met you 2010 InColorado, and I have really been
just continuing to really be adisciple of ici, and to continue
to see how worldviews anddimensions and culture are just
(02:18):
all the time working around us.
So I spend most of my timehelping people have
conversations around culture,whether it's individuals or
groups of leaders, ororganizations, helping them to
have conversations, where I hopepeople wind up discovering, hey,
(02:39):
I'm really an expert in culture,I just never talked about it
very much.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:44):
That's great. I have been both inspired
and blessed with you joining ourglobal network, taking the lead
also within the development ofour work in North America, which
is really exciting. And thetopic of power is the search is
everywhere. You just have towatch a movie, from superheroes
(03:07):
to villains, you just have toopen the newspaper, watch the
news, any talk show, just openyour social media. And a lot of
comments people make nowadaysits power is just everywhere.
But today, there are manydifferent ways to talk about
power, you can talk about itfrom a positional point of view
(03:27):
from a psychological emotionalpoint of view from a resource
and have and have nots point ofview to many different ways to
look at it. But today, we wantto talk about it from from a
cultural point of view, and, andmaybe just off the bat, what why
is that even important? Why dowe need to have a better
understanding of power from acultural point of view?
Ming-Jinn Tong (03:50):
Yeah, great question. So I love words, I
love definitions, let me justmock up a really small
definition on culture. So if wewere to think about culture, all
around us, and for those of youthat are listening in and aren't
familiar with the knowledgeworks, handle on culture, we're
(04:11):
not necessarily talking aboutyour passport, right? We're not
talking about the foods you ate,necessarily what you grew up, or
the holidays that you youenjoyed. However, we are talking
really about how so that's my,that's my one word, three letter
definition of culture, howculture is how, how life is
(04:33):
conducted. So we could betalking about how people are
motivated, that would beconnected to honor and shame or
innocence and guilt, power andfear, and how values become
expressed. And that really dealswith the 12 dimensions of
culture that we have similarvalues across cultures, but
(04:53):
they're expressed in suchdifferent ways. So here's a
small analogy. If I were toconnect To power with culture, I
think a fair analogy would bemarketplace. Powers influence on
culture is like currenciesinfluence on a marketplace. But
(05:16):
there's one big difference. Thecurrency, power and culture is
largely invisible. It's hard tosee the influence of power at
work.
Marco Blankenburgh (05:30):
Yeah, yeah.
No thank you for, for getting usgoing on this because it's so
crucial to go on. And now, maybejust to, to make sure we frame
this conversation, because wecould go in so many different
directions. But what is whatwould your definition of power
be?
Ming-Jinn Tong (05:53):
So this is how I think of it. Power, in its most
granular form, is ability, poweris ability. And then if I were
to think about what the abilityto do, or what to enable me to
do, power is the ability for meto essentially control my
(06:14):
environment to be in charge ofmy environment. So one
definition that I've that I kindof use, is power is the ability
to cause your reality,everything that's around you, to
become closer to what you wantto your will. So power is the
ability to cause your reality tomatch your will, if I don't like
(06:40):
something about in myenvironment. So right now, in
Minneapolis, it's been extremelyhot, 102 degrees Fahrenheit.
Yesterday, I don't know whatthat is in Celsius, please
google that and figure that out.
Very hot. I, I don't enjoy thehot weather. I don't enjoy the
humidity, it was 80% humidity.
(07:01):
And so what do I do, I simply goon my phone and open my Nest
app. And I change my entireenvironment with the click of a
button, I can turn on my airconditioning unit. I can
evaporate all the humidity, Ican lower the temperature,
that's power at work, causing myreality to become conformed to
(07:21):
my will.
Marco Blankenburgh (07:23):
Yeah, so you're talking not just about
people, but you're also talkingabout resources, your
environment, your context. Sopower can flow in many different
ways to your environment. Andsome people are able to make
changes and align and otherpeople do not have that
capability or are notpositionally able to do it.
Ming-Jinn Tong (07:46):
Yeah, I think I think we're all on a spectrum,
right? Each of us are on aspectrum of our own. And if
there's one spectrum for theworld, we are all on different
places. So some people have agreater ability to control their
environment. And some peoplehave a lesser ability. And then
if we were to map wheredifferent people are, some
people have a lot of controlover a lot of realities in their
(08:09):
life. And some people have lesscontrol over a lot of realities
in their life. And it's a greatobservation marker that I'm
talking about control overthings, material, things like my
air conditioning, or myenvironment. And that question
there about people that that'swhere things really get can
(08:30):
become very dangerous. I don't,I think I'll use the word
colorful. But when we starttalking about the relationship
between a person and theirpower, to control another
person, that's where there'sthat's where culture comes in.
Right? Both when we when we talkabout morality, and when we talk
(08:52):
about how and if we should begoing in.
Marco Blankenburgh (08:56):
Yeah. Now, there's a lot of books that have
been published about power ofthe subject of power. And I just
did a quick scan on Amazon, inthe book section, and, you know,
the top 20 books arepredominantly looking at power
from a Machiavellian point ofview. He wrote a book many, many
(09:19):
years ago, called the Prince andpower in, in that book is not
bound by ethics. It's what endjustifies the means is one of
the phrases in there and it'sjust fascinating to me that a
lot of the books that are beingsold right now and that aren't
the top of the list are more ofthat flavor. So why is humanity
(09:45):
so in love with that version ofpower sort of the lording over
the wanting to be the top dogthe you know, obey and listen
and ask questions later type ofapproach what why are we so in
love with that? Yeah.
Ming-Jinn Tong (10:02):
That's a great question. Boy, okay, let, this
may be a longer answer, but I'mgonna blow through this as fast
as I can. So I would say,people, in essence, love power,
because people love to survive.
They love to live. I believethat all worldviews begin with
fundamental awarenesses that weare taught, especially as
(10:27):
children. So I grew up everytime entering the room, I grew
up in a Chinese household,Taiwanese household. And I was
taught very, very keenly, who iswho when you see Grandma, you
must always stop, stop moving,say hello to grandma. And then
you can move forward after sheacknowledges you as well. So an
(10:50):
awareness of relationshipproduced an honor, shame
worldview for me, then when Iwent to school, you walk in the
classroom, it's not a picture ofthe principal, or a picture of
the teacher, or even thegovernor of the state. What's on
the wall is a list of rules. Andso my awareness of rules was
deeply put into me, and thatproduces innocence and guilt. So
(11:14):
you have to have rules to havewhat's innocent, and what's
guilty. And so it begs thequestion, what is the
fundamental core awareness ofsomeone that is aware of power
and fear. And I think that thatawareness really is survival. So
because humanity has the deep,primal notion to survive, we
(11:39):
gravitate toward what it takesto survive. And oftentimes, its
power, enabling us to manipulateour environment to keep us
alive. So just Just one laststep here, when what happens
when we get over the hump? Whenwhen survival, like physical
(12:01):
survival is no longer on thetable, right? I know, I can be
fed. I know I can I havesheltered and such, the question
then becomes what gives me reallife. And we found out, it's not
just the ability to survive. Butthe ability to provide that
(12:23):
surviving and flourishing onmyself is not enough that I
actually feel the greatestsatisfaction when not only I'm
flourishing, but the communityaround me is also flourishing.
Marco Blankenburgh (12:41):
Now, we have a lot of different examples.
Often, when we start aconversation around power, when
we start to discuss it, youalready alluded to the three
colors of worldview, where poweris one of the three main
cultural drivers, when we bringit up, people sort of sometimes
get a little bit sort ofuncomfortable or dies, they sort
(13:04):
of move around their seat alittle bit. And it always is,
you know, you can almost see thestories in their head, which
then later they start talkingabout those stories, and the
typically the negative storiesthat first come out. So it
almost seems that we have a bitof a uncomfortable relationship
with power, but also, thenegative stories pop up first,
(13:27):
most of the time, you know, youhear people say, power corrupts
and corrupts absolutely.
Absolute power corruptsabsolutely. So why why is it
actually misunderstood?
Ming-Jinn Tong (13:40):
Yeah, I can, I've had those experiences, too,
we talk about power. So at leastin the US, my experience tells
me that to be accused of havingpower is to be assigned guilt.
So that's one, maybe one causefor that uneasiness. Another
(14:01):
example that comes into my mindof why do we think of power as
this negative thing. The storiesthat make the news are seldom
the stories of people doing goodfor others. And so we almost
never see the beautiful side ofpower, because it's not
discussed. What we see is theawful ugly side of power. And so
(14:27):
there becomes an associationbetween a neutral entity which
is power, and its associatedhistorically and publicly, with
the awful things that it can do.
And very seldom with thebeautiful things that it can do.
Marco Blankenburgh (14:44):
Yeah.
Reminds me of the BBC has atleast a few times a year now.
They have an episode totallydedicated for to positive news.
Oh, yeah. And you're right. Veryoften, we don't hear the
positive news story. So peopleuse their influence their
resources, their position insociety to do good things.
(15:04):
You're right, you know, weemphasize the bad stories,
because those make the news andthose results in the likes and
the clicks and shares, etc.
Ming-Jinn Tong (15:16):
Yeah, traffic jams don't happen when people
observe other people drivingwell, right. They happen when
everyone stops to observe howawfully something happened. Some
kind of a car,
Marco Blankenburgh (15:29):
even on the other side of the highway. Yeah.
You already alluded to, forinstance, the example of your
grandma, you mentioned alreadyin the US that power and guilt
are very closely related to eachother. So obviously, it seems
(15:50):
that people are viewing power indifferent ways across cultures.
Can you talk to that furloughed?
Ming-Jinn Tong (15:57):
So? This is actually something Mark, I don't
know if you and I have everdiscussed this. But this is
something that I I think Ibelieve in and I work in this
way. I think I live this way.
All worldviews, innocence,guilt, honor, shame, power,
fear, I think in a way areactually constructed around
(16:19):
power. So let's let's let's makethis example. How does the
innocence guilt world a worldthat is based on logic as king,
right logic is the way to think?
If it's not logical, then itcannot be right. And it might
(16:41):
not even be good, if it's notlogical. How does the IG world
deal with power? If we want toempower someone, we will tell
them, hey, you can you can dothis, you have the right to do
it. And what we're saying is weare motivated them with a heavy
(17:01):
dose of innocence. So it's thisinnocence that we're giving them
and we're delivering it to them.
And that bolsters their abilityto do what they should do,
right? Go and get your dream, goand make it happen. You can do
it, it's within your rights,right? Go get this. So in a
sense, becomes a feeder fortheir livelihood, to increase
(17:26):
their power. However, whensomeone now has too much power,
and we think they need to bedeflated, we don't. In fact, we
would look down on things likename calling, we would, you
know, if you call their spouseor call their parents and tell
(17:46):
them, hey, you know, I thinkyour son or your daughter is
acting in a way. That's that's ashame tactic. Right? We don't do
that. When we feel likesomebody's high, low level of
power needs to be brought down,we go the legal route. In other
words, we impute them withguilt. So guilt becomes the way
(18:09):
to lower someone's power. Now,if we look at the honor shame
world, the same thing, if wewant to augment someone's power,
we honor them, we help them toknow you belong you are one of
us, you are firmly in thecircle, we give them honor to
augment power. And if we feelthat they have too much power,
(18:35):
we will put shame on them tobring them back down. Now,
here's where it getsinteresting. It seems to me that
if the tactics of innocence andguilt or honor and shame, don't
work enough, the gloves comeoff. And now we're down to some
(18:56):
very base realities or baseactions such as physical harm,
theft, perhaps, things that wemight say crossed the moral
line. And in that way, this kindof ungloved hand it's neither
(19:18):
the glove of innocence or guilt,nor the glove of honor, shame.
And now we have kind of thisbare knuckle. I'm just going to
exert my power over you tocontrol essentially your
reality, causing your reality tobecome formed from my will.
Marco Blankenburgh (19:42):
I love the fact that you allude to the
reality that in right wronginnocence, guilt and honor,
shame as well as Empower fear.
Of course, power is verypresent. It's just part and
parcel of being human, of havinga society having a neighborhood
having a family and And the wayit plays out is then indeed very
different. And that's what Ifind trips us up as human beings
(20:05):
when we cross cultural lines.
And as you started thisconversation today, when we talk
about cultural lines, we're nottalking from one passport
country to the next country, itcould be from one neighborhood
to the next neighborhood, itcould be from one school to
another school in the same town.
Because culture is is created byhuman beings in a context, one
(20:26):
family can be very differentfrom the family next door. And
the way power plays out in thatcontext is very different. Now,
you've mentioned the threecolors of worldview a number of
times already. And it's it's aincredibly sorry for the pump,
but a powerful tool to use tocreate understanding. But the
(20:47):
example you've finished with awith your explanation just now
gives sort of a negative spin ona power of fear environment. And
we've discovered that someenvironments are not driven by
right wrong. They're notnecessarily driven by owner
shame. They're actuallyhierarchical power is what
drives that context. Now, howdoes that work? Because for some
(21:12):
people that that might be new,and how does power fear context
work? How does a team works thatlooks like looks like that or
operates that way? And it's verytempting to start with the
negatives. So let's start with apositive. So what would a team
or an organization look likewhere power is used in a
(21:34):
positive way? Where it's used tomake a positive difference? A
positive contribution, whereit's actually beautiful to
watch? What does that look like?
Ming-Jinn Tong (21:47):
Yeah, oh, man.
Okay, what a great question. Andyou're absolutely right, I ended
on such a negative view of powerfear, and that that is the
starting place, right? I myselfhave fallen into the idea that
power itself, there's somethingwrong with it, that it's always
a scary thing. So if thequestion is, what does power
look like, in a beautiful,beautiful used context, this is
(22:13):
my first response to it. So whenI have seen power used well, in
especially in organizationalenvironment, this is the
strangest phenomenon that I'veobserved. Everyone is
suspicious, everyone issuspicious for at least half of
the year, if not more than that.
(22:40):
And I think what happens is thatpeople cannot truly receive that
their leader is wanting toactually seek their good and the
good of the organization, abovetheir own advancement. And it is
(23:02):
so backwards. So the firstreaction is almost like people
are allergic to the use of powerin a benevolent way. And so
people will self protect, theywill withhold themselves. And
they will actually say, I wonderwhat this leader is actually
trying to do, because it can'treally be this good. And so for
(23:26):
this effect, especially if theorganization is experiencing
abuse of power first, and thentransitions, either the leader
has a dramatic change, orthere's a change in leadership
altogether. When peopleencounter a leader that is more
concerned about the well beingand the flourishing of the
(23:48):
people that they are leaving,people don't know what to do
with it. So they will hold back,they will very slowly test the
waters, especially if they'vebeen hurt. And once there has
been enough consistency of powerused well, people can really
(24:09):
begin to bring their wholeselves to work, or bring their
whole selves, exposing everypart, the, of course, the good
and strong parts, but also theparts that they have kept hidden
because they were afraid tobring those parts into the
(24:30):
community. But when that doeshappen, and the leader or the
leadership team begins to show,we really want to use our power.
We understand we have power, andnow we want to use our power to
give you wings to fly. Peoplecan really begin to soar. They
(24:52):
will no longer fear sharing anidea that they may think is
silly or unexcited to movebecause it comes from my home
culture, etc. And when peopleare given protection from fear
by their leaders, they will beable to really unleash unlock
(25:13):
and deliver some incrediblyunique, incredibly fresh,
incredibly powerful gifts fornormalization.
Marco Blankenburgh (25:25):
And I've, I've seen that almost suspicion
that it will start with, becausevalidating and I love what you
just said earlier, using powerin a positive way requires
benevolence, it actuallyrequires generosity from whoever
is, is making that paradigmshift or whoever enters into an
(25:46):
organization or a team in thatmanner. It's fascinating because
you need to first of all, begenerous with giving power away,
allowing people to speakallowing people to be part of
the ideation process allowingother people's ideas to be
adopted, and say that's a betteridea than mine. So you need to
be benevolent and relinquishingpower, but it's also being
(26:08):
generous, generous in investingin people. So in the larger
organizations around the world,the word Empower is used so
frequently, and it's almost likea trendy word, but at the same
time, they fail to implementempowerment, because leaders
don't want to be using power inthat way, they still are holding
(26:32):
on. Now, the way we look atpower, the three colors of
worldview is super helpful inhelping to understand that some
environments truly are operatingbased on hierarchy based on
who's at the top of thehierarchy, how do I potentially
get closer to that person, butpower as you rightly mentioned
(26:56):
earlier on is everywhere. Now inour, in our intercultural work,
we found that there are otherpolarities, we call them
cultural opposites, that arereally helpful to understand
power, even at a deeper level.
So one thing that you've alreadytalked about in even previous
podcasts is that people seem toin a hierarchical power oriented
(27:19):
environment, people seem tocommunicate in different ways.
So direct versus indirectcommunication is used in a in a
way that might be different, forinstance, than in an innocent
skilled or in an unashamedenvironment. People look at
accountability, for instance, indifferent ways people look at
status in our culture mappinginventory, we look at look at
(27:43):
status from a scribed versusachieved point of view, also in
a very different way. And thelast one that's worth
mentioning, is this idea ofdestiny, who controls my
destiny, and are directed as inthe environment, my boss, my
leader, the forces at play in mylife, Destiny, if is controlled
by them, versus No, I am incontrol of my destiny. So when
(28:07):
you think about those types ofopposites, how do they help us
understand the cultural side ofpower even more?
Ming-Jinn Tong (28:19):
Yeah, boy, that's it. That's a great
question. That's a whole notherpodcast. Yes.
Marco Blankenburgh (28:29):
I can pick any of those, you know.
Ming-Jinn Tong (28:32):
Sure. Yeah.
Maybe I'll, I think I'll pick onaccountability. So I also want
to connect this answer to the tothe answer before, okay. So one
word that you use earlier wasrelinquish, for power, so a
leader relinquishing power toempower the people that they are
(28:54):
leading. However, I think and Ithink you would agree with this,
that that relinquishing is not azero sum game. Power is not a
concrete object that or a finiteobject that goes from me. And in
order for you to have some, Ineed to let go completely.
(29:15):
That's not how it is. Right?
Power is actually much moreelastic than that. In other
words, I can maintain power, andI can share it with you. And
because you have a degree ofpower, it doesn't mean that I
have less, it's not a zero sumgame, that I can maintain it and
(29:37):
share it with you. And so whenwe apply that now to the
dimension of accountability, sothe dimension of accountability
for those of you that aren'tfamiliar with this, it runs from
one end of the spectrum onepolarity is individual
accountability. I am onlyaccountable for myself, and the
other end of it is groupaccountability. that I don't
(30:01):
find the moral categories ofgood or bad based on my own
self. But my community, I viewmyself as a part of community,
and less as an individual. Theway that power is looked at
there then is very much in thosesame ways. So the individual
accountability person will viewpower as this is my own thing, I
(30:27):
have my own degree of power, Imust protect it. And if I am to
give it away, I am in control ofthat. However, on the other end
of the spectrum, on the groupaccountability, you could say,
power belongs to our community.
In fact, our leader helps us tounderstand what is the nature of
(30:48):
the power that we have, and whatpower does in that community is
determined by the community aswell. So when these two
polarities come together, if youhave people that are working
together from two different endsof the spectrum, they really do
need to consider number one,that's what I would just like to
(31:11):
say, number one, be aware thatthat spectrum that that
dimension of culture is at play,before we go throwing rocks at
other people to say, You're notthinking about it, right? We
need to first understand thereis a dimension number two, where
am I and where are they? Andnumber three? How do we create
(31:36):
an environment where we can bothbe comfortable in understanding
where the other person is?
Marco Blankenburgh (31:45):
Let me ask you a contentious question.
Because as the word agency comesto mind, so agency is talked
about a lot in North America andin Europe, especially agency is
a form of power, I would say.
But it seems that it's veryoften used in an individual
accountability way. And I wouldalmost say sometimes even to the
(32:11):
detriment of communityaccountability. So sorry to drop
this on you. But what are yourthoughts on that? You know, I
believe in agency, I believeit's important, but what happens
when it gets so emphasized? Thatit actually sacrifices community
accountability?
Ming-Jinn Tong (32:32):
So when agency so just a quick definition on
agency, let me see if we're onthe same page here. Agency
highlights a person's freedom, aperson's rights and a person's
ability to create to controltheir destiny or to be able to
speak into it to take action ontheir own will. Is that right?
(32:57):
Yeah. Okay. So if we were if wewere to go with that definition,
I think that my firstobservation is, the definition
itself begins with a person andnot a group or a community. And
so when you have someone who iscoming from the wanting to move
(33:21):
on agency perspective, the firstthing that they need to be aware
of is people in their communitythat come from a group
accountability place, they willlook in to that acting out of
your agency, as self centered,perhaps they might look at it as
(33:42):
disconnected. They might look atit as kind of a lone wolf idea.
Yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (33:49):
And the, we talked about one of the
dimensions, you selected theaccountability, one, I don't
know if we probably have timefor this, but the one that that
I have seen around the globe,that is often misunderstood,
when it comes to hierarchy andpower is the destiny dimension.
So, it sort of is linked to thisidea of agency, but directive
(34:13):
destiny is I take charge of myfuture, my opinion is important,
I need to find ways to to voicethat opinion, I need to be part
of the decision making process.
My thoughts and my ideas need tobe heard. And the other side of
that dimension is directeddestiny and indirect destiny.
(34:34):
Typically people accepthierarchy, they accept that that
that they will get their sort ofmarching orders from above, and
that they get told what to doand they're perfectly happy with
that. And I've talked to manypeople around the world who come
(34:55):
from a director, Destinyenvironment and And they
actually love it. Today theyfeel it gives them security, it
gives them stability, they knowexactly what's expected from
them. They, quote unquote, fallin line, but they don't even see
it that way. For them, itcreates flow that creates that
bound healthy boundaries aroundhow I go about my life, how I go
(35:20):
by my job, etc. And then theother side, people who are
directive Destiny oriented, theysay, Yeah, but no, no, that's
not how life is supposed to belived, you know, you need to
take control, and you need tomake sure that you speak up, and
you need to make sure your voiceis being heard. So that's
another polarity that we findwhere power is sort of
(35:42):
misunderstood across theopposites of the directed versus
directive destiny, what are yourthoughts on it?
Ming-Jinn Tong (35:50):
I love that you said that for myself. I have
always I've always said aboutmyself, I am a number two guy, I
am not the one in charge. And Idon't want to be the one in
charge. And I think that's frommy upbringing, I feel as a
directed Destiny person, I feelso much more comfortable. When I
(36:12):
do not have to be in charge.
Don't let me make the decisions.
Don't give me more power.
Because with power comesresponsibility. I don't want
that responsibility, what Iwould like to do is I would like
to be a cog in your machine, Ibelieve in your machine, I
believe your machine producesgood things. And so the, the
greatest fulfillment I can havefor myself, is to participate in
(36:37):
the system you set up, and youcan help me flourish when you
tell me go this far left and gothis far right? Between that
it's up to you, and make ithappen in this space. And I can
spin freely and quickly andeffectively, in my position. And
(36:57):
so that's my that's my ownpersonal place on the on the
total dimension, you know, ondimension destiny, I enjoy when
I can be used well, for thedevelopment of a greater
purpose. Give me a role and Iwill flourish in it. I have not
(37:18):
desiring to become a leader. Letme serve. That's that's who I
am. Yeah. So that's how it mightsound? That is my reality.
Marco Blankenburgh (37:33):
Yeah, yeah.
No, I love that. I love that,you know, you can speak from
personal experience and whereyour sweet spot is, so to speak.
And we don't have time to talkabout this. But what comes to
mind is, there's some reallyinteresting articles that talk
about how the pandemic washandled by different governments
around the world, and howenvironments who were more
(37:57):
directed Destiny oriented, therewas much more compliance. And if
good decisions were made by thegovernment, in a directed
Destiny environment, typically,the way they manage the pandemic
was actually much better. Ofcourse, it requires good
decision making. Sometimes, thatwasn't the case. But indirectly,
Destiny environments, even ifgood decisions were made by the
(38:21):
government, sometimes thatdesire to make my voice heard
and then caused all kinds ofchallenges in the system.
Ming-Jinn Tong (38:31):
Yeah, that's right. So it really does depend
on trust, I will happily andeternally serve as a part of
your system. If I trust you, ifI know you're producing good.
And if and if I can see it, youknow that the pandemics is kept
at bay, numbers of deaths arelow, I'm going to continue to
(38:55):
trust you and happilyparticipate. So that is, you
know, it's funny, even talkingabout this helps me to realize
how much I am a directed Destinyperson that I don't I don't
really want to be in chargetrying to get more power is not
what I'm about. What I want todo is I want to see power used
well, and I will play my role tomake sure that happens.
Marco Blankenburgh (39:19):
And I love the fact that you mentioned
trust in this equation, becausethat is absolutely important. So
power use well creates trust inthe system. And I've heard
people say, I trust my boss, ormy leader, my boss has my back.
I know thy will are willing todie for me, I know that they
(39:43):
will be there for me. Andtherefore I reciprocate with
loyalty with commitment andgiving 100% of who I am into the
system. So trust is superimportant in that in that whole
discussion. Now, we started inthe beginning that with saying
(40:03):
that we do have a bit of achallenge when it comes to power
as humanity. You even mentionedan example we say when power is
used in a beautiful way peopleare initially suspicious, you
mentioned that you've seen ittake up to six months for people
to say, Oh, she's for real.
She's consistent in how sheoperates. Or he's actually doing
this, not just to, to push anagenda, but it's the genuine
(40:28):
version of our leader. So how dowe get there? How do we change
our relationship with power?
What can we practically do?
Yeah.
Ming-Jinn Tong (40:40):
So what a great question. Number one is
awareness, we have to be awarethat we have power every person
from the least powerful person,to the most powerful person, we
all have a degree of power, soto become aware that you as a
leader have power. And numbertwo, not just general awareness,
(41:02):
but specific awareness, whichmeans listening, and observing,
and having voices that you arewilling to listen to, you should
ask this to the people aroundyou. Can you for the next week,
make observations about theimpact of My presence, anywhere
(41:25):
I go, what's the impact of Mypresence, and then speak it to
me, and I will listen to you.
Because understanding thespecifics of your power is the
first way the first thing youneed to do to be able to use it
well. Number two, once youunderstand the impact of your
presence, you need to then beginto evaluate. These are the
(41:49):
impacts of My presence that Iwant to augment. And these are
the impacts of My presence, thatI need to evaluate more, and
maybe I need to call them, Ineed to change them. But to be
aware that as a leader, as soonas you step in the room, you are
(42:10):
making an impact doesn't matterif you said a word, just your
presence. So number one,awareness, number two,
evaluation, understanding howyour impact is. And then I think
number three, is engaging in adiscussion with your
organization, about those thoseimpacts that you have, and
(42:34):
inviting people into thatconversation. It could backfire.
Here's how it could backfire.
People could say this is a thisis a trap, you are luring me in
to be later punished. And ifthat's what you are really
about, don't do that. However,if you are willing to listen,
(42:59):
and willing to understand atboth a knowledge and an
emotional level, the impact I'mhaving on the people that I'm
leading is such and such andsuch. And they are telling me
that they would be betterserved. If these changes were
made. Some things may be somethings you know, you might hear,
(43:24):
Well, you have a mean look onyour face. Well, I didn't, I
didn't mean to have a mean lookon my face. That's just my face.
So sometimes we hear things wedon't want to hear that we don't
want to accept. And this iswhere humility comes in. Am I
willing to believe that even abenevolent act of saying hello,
(43:46):
could be scary to someone? Itdoesn't necessarily mean I need
to change necessarily, right?
We're dealing with lots ofdifferent people. But being
willing to listen to what peopleare saying. And taking small
steps to have discussions towardchange, I think is how we slowly
turn the ship from maybe amisuse of power to benevolent
(44:09):
use of power.
Marco Blankenburgh (44:13):
And even as you speak, made me realize that
that's not necessarily anexternal journey. First. It's an
it's an internal journey.
Because ultimately, it's itstarts to ask questions, if I'm
in a leadership position. Howmuch does this leader perceive
position gives me identity, forinstance, and the more identity
(44:35):
that position gives me the moreI want to hold on to it. And the
more I am not able to think weas opposed to I'm only thinking
about me, so it does a deepersoul searching on us that I
think needs to happen especiallyif you're in a leadership
position. I'm not you know, am Iin this position because the
(44:58):
position gives me value theposition gives me identity, then
it's very hard to be beempowering, and be what we call
life giving. But that let'slet's go one step further.
Because you mentioned earlieron, everybody has power. And
what I often find on teams,people say, Yeah, but I can't
change anything. And what I findis when you start talking about
(45:21):
thoughts, words and actions,then people start saying, oh,
yeah, I could actually make somechanges. Interestingly, the
teams that we work with rightaround the world, when it comes
to that discussion, one of themost common mentioned points is,
oh, we need to stop gossiping.
(45:46):
Because gossip is a form ofwielding power. And I always
joke with people I say, Well,let's talk about positive
gossip. What would that looklike? So turning your words not
into from Gossip intoaffirmation into praise into? So
how can we, even if we're goingto code in a normal team player,
(46:11):
people might say, well, I don'thave any power. So how could we
create a positive relationshipwith with power? In terms of how
we think how we speak and how weact? What would be some
practical things besides, youknow, positive gossip versus
negative gossip?
Ming-Jinn Tong (46:28):
Yeah. So let's look at even that statement, I
don't have any power, what am Igoing to do? Even in that, that
there could be a wielding ofpower, right? So what you are,
in essence saying is, don'tassign any power to me, I am, in
fact, powerless. Therefore, whenwe talk about positive change in
(46:53):
the organization, you need toremove my name from that change.
And that's actually a way thatpeople can start around
responsibility, instead ofsaying, Okay, our organization,
it depends on everyone. And nomatter even if I really feel
(47:13):
like I don't have power, I amstill belonging to the
organization. So, again, whatare the practical steps that
someone who feels quitepowerless, is able to do to
bring about positive change inthe workplace? Boy, I would say,
so major caveat here, therereally is such a thing as a
(47:37):
safety, and even psychologicalsafety. So in as much as you can
operate in a safe space, I thinkthat exercising and
demonstrating courage, to beamong the first to begin to
(48:00):
trust and begin to relate toleadership, in a trusting way,
can be a major organizationalchanging factor. So let's say
you have a leader who islearning to be more benevolent,
(48:20):
magnanimous, in their use ofpower, they need people to
respond to them in a way thathelps everyone to grow. Now,
again, there is some inherentrisk here, right? Everyone feels
suspicious. But if you can beamong the first to say, okay, my
leader is saying this, and Iwant to take them up on it, I
(48:47):
want to say, Okay, I'm gonna goahead, and I'm gonna respond
positively to this. This beginsto you always put yourself out
there as a test case, for othersto observe what's going to
happen to this person, when theybegin to trust leadership. And
what I would hope is thatleadership will prove that they
(49:11):
are indeed looking for the goodof that person. And others can
join them in beginning to changethe culture. In other words,
it's not just a top down,leadership change that needs to
happen. It's also willingnessfrom those that are in
subordinate positions toparticipate. Again, with the
(49:33):
caveat of safety.
Marco Blankenburgh (49:36):
Yeah, it's fascinating when when people
have to sort of intentionallystart practicing these things,
so you know, positive gossip,speaking well off each other or
giving credit where credit isdue. I remember I was doing an
exercise with a team and theywanted to do sort of small
(49:59):
affirmation cards. So writethree things down from your
colleagues that you appreciate.
And it was introduced by one ofthe team members. And this
person said, Oh, I shouldn'ttake you more than, you know,
for five minutes. And 15 minuteslater, they were still working
on it. And they said, This ishard. And it was it was a
(50:19):
reflective of the fact that theyare very good at pointing out
what's wrong. But they were notso good at pointing out what was
right. And it was like almost amindset change that had to
happen, where amongstthemselves, they have the power
to either choose to point outwhat was what was wrong, or
(50:40):
choose to point out what wasright. And when they first were
asked to do that. They said,Man, this is hard work. But as
they got further into it, it goteasier and easier and easier. So
it's almost like a reprogrammingof the mind as well.
Ming-Jinn Tong (50:57):
Yeah. Yeah. I want to I want to go from the
other side of that.
What does it look like? Forlike, let's say you are you
yourself are a destiny, directedperson. And you are being told,
(51:18):
please report on the work thatyou've done. Now to do that
could really feel like Oh, I'mnot supposed to boast about what
I do. So there's a differentkind. I mean, that's, that's
like courage from the from thebackside, are you willing to
participate in a, you know, whatyou might think of as a self
(51:43):
hosting kind of environment,when really, all you're being
asked to do is to illuminate andinform the actions you've taken,
so that everyone can celebrate,can move forward together to
understand what's happening inthe company. So yes, speaking
(52:04):
well of others, but also takingcourage to cross over to that
other dimension, to speak wellof yourself, actually. And to
know, I'm not going to bepunished for doing that.
Marco Blankenburgh (52:21):
Love that?
Well, I think we landed on somevery practical things that we
do, I think what stands out tome is this, for all of us,
myself included, to have thatrealization that we continuously
are in positions of power. Weare in positions of power in how
we think about ourselves, how wethink about others, how we think
(52:41):
about relationships, about theplace, the context of business,
the team that we operate in. Andyou mentioned earlier on to
really become aware and observe.
And those, we talk aboutperception management to
perceive at a deeper level twoperceive to gather more data
(53:03):
about myself about you about ourrelationship and about the
context. And learn from that.
And one of the things we lovedoing is to, to use our
intercultural tools, threecolors, a worldview and a
cultural mapping imagery, but wealso highly recommend people to
be better student of thepsychology of human beings. So
whatever, you know, whatever youmight be familiar with the
(53:26):
strengths finders, Myers Briggsor everything this good. Yeah,
exactly, you know, perceivebetter gather back more quality
information, more comprehensiveinformation, so that you truly
understand how you impact thecontext and how you are impacted
by the context and by the peoplein that context. And that's
(53:47):
where we start to, to really geta handle on power, but also
start to be more equipped tostart tweaking to start playing
around with different ways ofbeing different ways of
connecting and speaking andacting. And we could talk about
this for hours, probably, but Iwant to thank you for for
(54:09):
joining, ultimately, what we'relooking for in our intercultural
workers, we want to createculture together. So the
conversation around power issuper important. Because if we
don't have a collectiveunderstanding of what we want
power to be, it's going tomisfire on us. So I want to
(54:29):
finish up with that. So how canwe as a team, as a group, it
could be even as a family, butas a group of people that need
to accomplish something togetherand do something together? How
can we collectively reallycreate that common understanding
of power to create that thirdcultural space that common
cultural space?
Ming-Jinn Tong (54:51):
Yeah, so for those of you that are listening,
I get no financial kickback forthis, but I do want to say that
the place to begin And I thinkif you are serious about wanting
to understand the level of powerthat you have are able to
understand how power works. Putyour team through the three
(55:12):
colors of worldview assessment,because that assessment is
designed to not only give youbrand new lenses that you may
have never thought before, butalso to show you realities about
yourself and your team. And itreally is a catalyst. It's an
(55:34):
entry gate to beginconversations in a very safe and
welcoming place. There is noright place to land, there's no
wrong place to land. But we allhave an understanding of culture
deep within ourselves. And whenwe can finally get eyes tangibly
to see how those motivationsinnocence, guilt, honor, shame,
(55:57):
power, fear are working in us.
It unlocks deep and powerfulconversations, perspectives, and
the ability to finally seethings, again, that invisible
currency at work, it actuallythrows paint, and helps us to
see how it's working.
Marco Blankenburgh (56:17):
Thank you so much for joining such an
important topic. And we need anawful lot of deep diving as
humanity, including myself, toreally understand it better to
embrace it to even maybe, youknow, get to the point where we
can celebrate power in apositive way. So thank you for
for joining this conversation.
And details on how to connectwith Ming Jin will be shared in
(56:39):
the notes of this podcast aswell as some hyperlinks on
further reading that you'll findon the knowledge books comm
website. And thank you everybodyfor joining. And thank you, Jim,
for being on this podcast againwith us. Really appreciate it.
Ming-Jinn Tong (56:56):
Great to be here. Thanks for having me,
Marco.
Marco Blankenburgh (56:59):
Thank you so much for joining us for this
episode of the cultural agilitypodcast. If you enjoyed today's
episode, share it with someone.
Best way to help us out is byleaving a review on your
favorite podcast, app or channelor forward and recommend this
podcast people around you. Asalways, if any of the topics we
discuss today intrigue you, youwill find links to articles
(57:22):
discussing them in greater depthin the podcast notes. If you
would like to learn more aboutintercultural intelligence and
how you can become moreculturally agile, you can find
more information and hundreds ofarticles at knowledge works.com
Special thanks to Jason Carterfor composing the music on this
(57:42):
podcast and to the wholeknowledge works team for making
this podcast a success. Thankyou Anita Rodriquez, Ara as is
back Ian Raji Suraj and thanksto VIP and George for audio
production, Rosalyn Raj forscheduling and Caleb Strauss for
marketing and helping producethis podcast
And when people are given protection from fear
by their leaders, they will beable to really unleash, unlock
and deliver some incrediblyunique, incredibly fresh,
incredibly powerful gifts forthe organization.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:32):
Welcome to the cultural agility podcast,
where we explore the stories ofsome of the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world, to help you
become culturally agile, andsucceed in today's culturally
complex world, I'm your host,Marco Blankenburg, international
director of knowledge works,where every day we help
(00:52):
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world. Welcomeonce again to another episode of
the love Korean Cultural agilitypodcast. And I'm very intrigued
by the topic of today, which isall about power. And we're gonna
(01:13):
be talking about power with MingJin Tang, who is not a stranger
to the unlocking culturalagility podcast. And it's so
good to have you back again,Legion.
Ming-Jinn Tong (01:24):
It's great to be here. Yeah, very excited. I'm so
excited to dig into all thesewonderful questions.
Marco Blankenburgh (01:29):
I'm afraid that this topic 50 minutes or 45
minutes won't be enough. Solet's see where we land.
Ming-Jinn Tong (01:37):
We'll talk quick Marco.
Marco Blankenburgh (01:39):
Well, some people this might be the first
time they hear you on ourpodcast channel. So it would
still be great if you couldintroduce yourself to new
listeners.
Ming-Jinn Tong (01:51):
Yeah, fantastic.
So yep. My name is Ming Qian,and I live here in Minneapolis,
Minnesota, and Marco, I've knownyou now for 13 years, I can't
believe I've met you 2010 InColorado, and I have really been
just continuing to really be adisciple of ici, and to continue
to see how worldviews anddimensions and culture are just
(02:18):
all the time working around us.
So I spend most of my timehelping people have
conversations around culture,whether it's individuals or
groups of leaders, ororganizations, helping them to
have conversations, where I hopepeople wind up discovering, hey,
(02:39):
I'm really an expert in culture,I just never talked about it
very much.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:44):
That's great. I have been both inspired
and blessed with you joining ourglobal network, taking the lead
also within the development ofour work in North America, which
is really exciting. And thetopic of power is the search is
everywhere. You just have towatch a movie, from superheroes
(03:07):
to villains, you just have toopen the newspaper, watch the
news, any talk show, just openyour social media. And a lot of
comments people make nowadaysits power is just everywhere.
But today, there are manydifferent ways to talk about
power, you can talk about itfrom a positional point of view
(03:27):
from a psychological emotionalpoint of view from a resource
and have and have nots point ofview to many different ways to
look at it. But today, we wantto talk about it from from a
cultural point of view, and, andmaybe just off the bat, what why
is that even important? Why dowe need to have a better
understanding of power from acultural point of view?
Ming-Jinn Tong (03:50):
Yeah, great question. So I love words, I
love definitions, let me justmock up a really small
definition on culture. So if wewere to think about culture, all
around us, and for those of youthat are listening in and aren't
familiar with the knowledgeworks, handle on culture, we're
(04:11):
not necessarily talking aboutyour passport, right? We're not
talking about the foods you ate,necessarily what you grew up, or
the holidays that you youenjoyed. However, we are talking
really about how so that's my,that's my one word, three letter
definition of culture, howculture is how, how life is
(04:33):
conducted. So we could betalking about how people are
motivated, that would beconnected to honor and shame or
innocence and guilt, power andfear, and how values become
expressed. And that really dealswith the 12 dimensions of
culture that we have similarvalues across cultures, but
(04:53):
they're expressed in suchdifferent ways. So here's a
small analogy. If I were toconnect To power with culture, I
think a fair analogy would bemarketplace. Powers influence on
culture is like currenciesinfluence on a marketplace. But
(05:16):
there's one big difference. Thecurrency, power and culture is
largely invisible. It's hard tosee the influence of power at
work.
Marco Blankenburgh (05:30):
Yeah, yeah.
No thank you for, for getting usgoing on this because it's so
crucial to go on. And now, maybejust to, to make sure we frame
this conversation, because wecould go in so many different
directions. But what is whatwould your definition of power
be?
Ming-Jinn Tong (05:53):
So this is how I think of it. Power, in its most
granular form, is ability, poweris ability. And then if I were
to think about what the abilityto do, or what to enable me to
do, power is the ability for meto essentially control my
(06:14):
environment to be in charge ofmy environment. So one
definition that I've that I kindof use, is power is the ability
to cause your reality,everything that's around you, to
become closer to what you wantto your will. So power is the
ability to cause your reality tomatch your will, if I don't like
(06:40):
something about in myenvironment. So right now, in
Minneapolis, it's been extremelyhot, 102 degrees Fahrenheit.
Yesterday, I don't know whatthat is in Celsius, please
google that and figure that out.
Very hot. I, I don't enjoy thehot weather. I don't enjoy the
humidity, it was 80% humidity.
(07:01):
And so what do I do, I simply goon my phone and open my Nest
app. And I change my entireenvironment with the click of a
button, I can turn on my airconditioning unit. I can
evaporate all the humidity, Ican lower the temperature,
that's power at work, causing myreality to become conformed to
(07:21):
my will.
Marco Blankenburgh (07:23):
Yeah, so you're talking not just about
people, but you're also talkingabout resources, your
environment, your context. Sopower can flow in many different
ways to your environment. Andsome people are able to make
changes and align and otherpeople do not have that
capability or are notpositionally able to do it.
Ming-Jinn Tong (07:46):
Yeah, I think I think we're all on a spectrum,
right? Each of us are on aspectrum of our own. And if
there's one spectrum for theworld, we are all on different
places. So some people have agreater ability to control their
environment. And some peoplehave a lesser ability. And then
if we were to map wheredifferent people are, some
people have a lot of controlover a lot of realities in their
(08:09):
life. And some people have lesscontrol over a lot of realities
in their life. And it's a greatobservation marker that I'm
talking about control overthings, material, things like my
air conditioning, or myenvironment. And that question
there about people that that'swhere things really get can
(08:30):
become very dangerous. I don't,I think I'll use the word
colorful. But when we starttalking about the relationship
between a person and theirpower, to control another
person, that's where there'sthat's where culture comes in.
Right? Both when we when we talkabout morality, and when we talk
(08:52):
about how and if we should begoing in.
Marco Blankenburgh (08:56):
Yeah. Now, there's a lot of books that have
been published about power ofthe subject of power. And I just
did a quick scan on Amazon, inthe book section, and, you know,
the top 20 books arepredominantly looking at power
from a Machiavellian point ofview. He wrote a book many, many
(09:19):
years ago, called the Prince andpower in, in that book is not
bound by ethics. It's what endjustifies the means is one of
the phrases in there and it'sjust fascinating to me that a
lot of the books that are beingsold right now and that aren't
the top of the list are more ofthat flavor. So why is humanity
(09:45):
so in love with that version ofpower sort of the lording over
the wanting to be the top dogthe you know, obey and listen
and ask questions later type ofapproach what why are we so in
love with that? Yeah.
Ming-Jinn Tong (10:02):
That's a great question. Boy, okay, let, this
may be a longer answer, but I'mgonna blow through this as fast
as I can. So I would say,people, in essence, love power,
because people love to survive.
They love to live. I believethat all worldviews begin with
fundamental awarenesses that weare taught, especially as
(10:27):
children. So I grew up everytime entering the room, I grew
up in a Chinese household,Taiwanese household. And I was
taught very, very keenly, who iswho when you see Grandma, you
must always stop, stop moving,say hello to grandma. And then
you can move forward after sheacknowledges you as well. So an
(10:50):
awareness of relationshipproduced an honor, shame
worldview for me, then when Iwent to school, you walk in the
classroom, it's not a picture ofthe principal, or a picture of
the teacher, or even thegovernor of the state. What's on
the wall is a list of rules. Andso my awareness of rules was
deeply put into me, and thatproduces innocence and guilt. So
(11:14):
you have to have rules to havewhat's innocent, and what's
guilty. And so it begs thequestion, what is the
fundamental core awareness ofsomeone that is aware of power
and fear. And I think that thatawareness really is survival. So
because humanity has the deep,primal notion to survive, we
(11:39):
gravitate toward what it takesto survive. And oftentimes, its
power, enabling us to manipulateour environment to keep us
alive. So just Just one laststep here, when what happens
when we get over the hump? Whenwhen survival, like physical
(12:01):
survival is no longer on thetable, right? I know, I can be
fed. I know I can I havesheltered and such, the question
then becomes what gives me reallife. And we found out, it's not
just the ability to survive. Butthe ability to provide that
(12:23):
surviving and flourishing onmyself is not enough that I
actually feel the greatestsatisfaction when not only I'm
flourishing, but the communityaround me is also flourishing.
Marco Blankenburgh (12:41):
Now, we have a lot of different examples.
Often, when we start aconversation around power, when
we start to discuss it, youalready alluded to the three
colors of worldview, where poweris one of the three main
cultural drivers, when we bringit up, people sort of sometimes
get a little bit sort ofuncomfortable or dies, they sort
(13:04):
of move around their seat alittle bit. And it always is,
you know, you can almost see thestories in their head, which
then later they start talkingabout those stories, and the
typically the negative storiesthat first come out. So it
almost seems that we have a bitof a uncomfortable relationship
with power, but also, thenegative stories pop up first,
(13:27):
most of the time, you know, youhear people say, power corrupts
and corrupts absolutely.
Absolute power corruptsabsolutely. So why why is it
actually misunderstood?
Ming-Jinn Tong (13:40):
Yeah, I can, I've had those experiences, too,
we talk about power. So at leastin the US, my experience tells
me that to be accused of havingpower is to be assigned guilt.
So that's one, maybe one causefor that uneasiness. Another
(14:01):
example that comes into my mindof why do we think of power as
this negative thing. The storiesthat make the news are seldom
the stories of people doing goodfor others. And so we almost
never see the beautiful side ofpower, because it's not
discussed. What we see is theawful ugly side of power. And so
(14:27):
there becomes an associationbetween a neutral entity which
is power, and its associatedhistorically and publicly, with
the awful things that it can do.
And very seldom with thebeautiful things that it can do.
Marco Blankenburgh (14:44):
Yeah.
Reminds me of the BBC has atleast a few times a year now.
They have an episode totallydedicated for to positive news.
Oh, yeah. And you're right. Veryoften, we don't hear the
positive news story. So peopleuse their influence their
resources, their position insociety to do good things.
(15:04):
You're right, you know, weemphasize the bad stories,
because those make the news andthose results in the likes and
the clicks and shares, etc.
Ming-Jinn Tong (15:16):
Yeah, traffic jams don't happen when people
observe other people drivingwell, right. They happen when
everyone stops to observe howawfully something happened. Some
kind of a car,
Marco Blankenburgh (15:29):
even on the other side of the highway. Yeah.
You already alluded to, forinstance, the example of your
grandma, you mentioned alreadyin the US that power and guilt
are very closely related to eachother. So obviously, it seems
(15:50):
that people are viewing power indifferent ways across cultures.
Can you talk to that furloughed?
Ming-Jinn Tong (15:57):
So? This is actually something Mark, I don't
know if you and I have everdiscussed this. But this is
something that I I think Ibelieve in and I work in this
way. I think I live this way.
All worldviews, innocence,guilt, honor, shame, power,
fear, I think in a way areactually constructed around
(16:19):
power. So let's let's let's makethis example. How does the
innocence guilt world a worldthat is based on logic as king,
right logic is the way to think?
If it's not logical, then itcannot be right. And it might
(16:41):
not even be good, if it's notlogical. How does the IG world
deal with power? If we want toempower someone, we will tell
them, hey, you can you can dothis, you have the right to do
it. And what we're saying is weare motivated them with a heavy
(17:01):
dose of innocence. So it's thisinnocence that we're giving them
and we're delivering it to them.
And that bolsters their abilityto do what they should do,
right? Go and get your dream, goand make it happen. You can do
it, it's within your rights,right? Go get this. So in a
sense, becomes a feeder fortheir livelihood, to increase
(17:26):
their power. However, whensomeone now has too much power,
and we think they need to bedeflated, we don't. In fact, we
would look down on things likename calling, we would, you
know, if you call their spouseor call their parents and tell
(17:46):
them, hey, you know, I thinkyour son or your daughter is
acting in a way. That's that's ashame tactic. Right? We don't do
that. When we feel likesomebody's high, low level of
power needs to be brought down,we go the legal route. In other
words, we impute them withguilt. So guilt becomes the way
(18:09):
to lower someone's power. Now,if we look at the honor shame
world, the same thing, if wewant to augment someone's power,
we honor them, we help them toknow you belong you are one of
us, you are firmly in thecircle, we give them honor to
augment power. And if we feelthat they have too much power,
(18:35):
we will put shame on them tobring them back down. Now,
here's where it getsinteresting. It seems to me that
if the tactics of innocence andguilt or honor and shame, don't
work enough, the gloves comeoff. And now we're down to some
(18:56):
very base realities or baseactions such as physical harm,
theft, perhaps, things that wemight say crossed the moral
line. And in that way, this kindof ungloved hand it's neither
(19:18):
the glove of innocence or guilt,nor the glove of honor, shame.
And now we have kind of thisbare knuckle. I'm just going to
exert my power over you tocontrol essentially your
reality, causing your reality tobecome formed from my will.
Marco Blankenburgh (19:42):
I love the fact that you allude to the
reality that in right wronginnocence, guilt and honor,
shame as well as Empower fear.
Of course, power is verypresent. It's just part and
parcel of being human, of havinga society having a neighborhood
having a family and And the wayit plays out is then indeed very
different. And that's what Ifind trips us up as human beings
(20:05):
when we cross cultural lines.
And as you started thisconversation today, when we talk
about cultural lines, we're nottalking from one passport
country to the next country, itcould be from one neighborhood
to the next neighborhood, itcould be from one school to
another school in the same town.
Because culture is is created byhuman beings in a context, one
(20:26):
family can be very differentfrom the family next door. And
the way power plays out in thatcontext is very different. Now,
you've mentioned the threecolors of worldview a number of
times already. And it's it's aincredibly sorry for the pump,
but a powerful tool to use tocreate understanding. But the
(20:47):
example you've finished with awith your explanation just now
gives sort of a negative spin ona power of fear environment. And
we've discovered that someenvironments are not driven by
right wrong. They're notnecessarily driven by owner
shame. They're actuallyhierarchical power is what
drives that context. Now, howdoes that work? Because for some
(21:12):
people that that might be new,and how does power fear context
work? How does a team works thatlooks like looks like that or
operates that way? And it's verytempting to start with the
negatives. So let's start with apositive. So what would a team
or an organization look likewhere power is used in a
(21:34):
positive way? Where it's used tomake a positive difference? A
positive contribution, whereit's actually beautiful to
watch? What does that look like?
Ming-Jinn Tong (21:47):
Yeah, oh, man.
Okay, what a great question. Andyou're absolutely right, I ended
on such a negative view of powerfear, and that that is the
starting place, right? I myselfhave fallen into the idea that
power itself, there's somethingwrong with it, that it's always
a scary thing. So if thequestion is, what does power
look like, in a beautiful,beautiful used context, this is
(22:13):
my first response to it. So whenI have seen power used well, in
especially in organizationalenvironment, this is the
strangest phenomenon that I'veobserved. Everyone is
suspicious, everyone issuspicious for at least half of
the year, if not more than that.
(22:40):
And I think what happens is thatpeople cannot truly receive that
their leader is wanting toactually seek their good and the
good of the organization, abovetheir own advancement. And it is
(23:02):
so backwards. So the firstreaction is almost like people
are allergic to the use of powerin a benevolent way. And so
people will self protect, theywill withhold themselves. And
they will actually say, I wonderwhat this leader is actually
trying to do, because it can'treally be this good. And so for
(23:26):
this effect, especially if theorganization is experiencing
abuse of power first, and thentransitions, either the leader
has a dramatic change, orthere's a change in leadership
altogether. When peopleencounter a leader that is more
concerned about the well beingand the flourishing of the
(23:48):
people that they are leaving,people don't know what to do
with it. So they will hold back,they will very slowly test the
waters, especially if they'vebeen hurt. And once there has
been enough consistency of powerused well, people can really
(24:09):
begin to bring their wholeselves to work, or bring their
whole selves, exposing everypart, the, of course, the good
and strong parts, but also theparts that they have kept hidden
because they were afraid tobring those parts into the
(24:30):
community. But when that doeshappen, and the leader or the
leadership team begins to show,we really want to use our power.
We understand we have power, andnow we want to use our power to
give you wings to fly. Peoplecan really begin to soar. They
(24:52):
will no longer fear sharing anidea that they may think is
silly or unexcited to movebecause it comes from my home
culture, etc. And when peopleare given protection from fear
by their leaders, they will beable to really unleash unlock
(25:13):
and deliver some incrediblyunique, incredibly fresh,
incredibly powerful gifts fornormalization.
Marco Blankenburgh (25:25):
And I've, I've seen that almost suspicion
that it will start with, becausevalidating and I love what you
just said earlier, using powerin a positive way requires
benevolence, it actuallyrequires generosity from whoever
is, is making that paradigmshift or whoever enters into an
(25:46):
organization or a team in thatmanner. It's fascinating because
you need to first of all, begenerous with giving power away,
allowing people to speakallowing people to be part of
the ideation process allowingother people's ideas to be
adopted, and say that's a betteridea than mine. So you need to
be benevolent and relinquishingpower, but it's also being
(26:08):
generous, generous in investingin people. So in the larger
organizations around the world,the word Empower is used so
frequently, and it's almost likea trendy word, but at the same
time, they fail to implementempowerment, because leaders
don't want to be using power inthat way, they still are holding
(26:32):
on. Now, the way we look atpower, the three colors of
worldview is super helpful inhelping to understand that some
environments truly are operatingbased on hierarchy based on
who's at the top of thehierarchy, how do I potentially
get closer to that person, butpower as you rightly mentioned
(26:56):
earlier on is everywhere. Now inour, in our intercultural work,
we found that there are otherpolarities, we call them
cultural opposites, that arereally helpful to understand
power, even at a deeper level.
So one thing that you've alreadytalked about in even previous
podcasts is that people seem toin a hierarchical power oriented
(27:19):
environment, people seem tocommunicate in different ways.
So direct versus indirectcommunication is used in a in a
way that might be different, forinstance, than in an innocent
skilled or in an unashamedenvironment. People look at
accountability, for instance, indifferent ways people look at
status in our culture mappinginventory, we look at look at
(27:43):
status from a scribed versusachieved point of view, also in
a very different way. And thelast one that's worth
mentioning, is this idea ofdestiny, who controls my
destiny, and are directed as inthe environment, my boss, my
leader, the forces at play in mylife, Destiny, if is controlled
by them, versus No, I am incontrol of my destiny. So when
(28:07):
you think about those types ofopposites, how do they help us
understand the cultural side ofpower even more?
Ming-Jinn Tong (28:19):
Yeah, boy, that's it. That's a great
question. That's a whole notherpodcast. Yes.
Marco Blankenburgh (28:29):
I can pick any of those, you know.
Ming-Jinn Tong (28:32):
Sure. Yeah.
Maybe I'll, I think I'll pick onaccountability. So I also want
to connect this answer to the tothe answer before, okay. So one
word that you use earlier wasrelinquish, for power, so a
leader relinquishing power toempower the people that they are
(28:54):
leading. However, I think and Ithink you would agree with this,
that that relinquishing is not azero sum game. Power is not a
concrete object that or a finiteobject that goes from me. And in
order for you to have some, Ineed to let go completely.
(29:15):
That's not how it is. Right?
Power is actually much moreelastic than that. In other
words, I can maintain power, andI can share it with you. And
because you have a degree ofpower, it doesn't mean that I
have less, it's not a zero sumgame, that I can maintain it and
(29:37):
share it with you. And so whenwe apply that now to the
dimension of accountability, sothe dimension of accountability
for those of you that aren'tfamiliar with this, it runs from
one end of the spectrum onepolarity is individual
accountability. I am onlyaccountable for myself, and the
other end of it is groupaccountability. that I don't
(30:01):
find the moral categories ofgood or bad based on my own
self. But my community, I viewmyself as a part of community,
and less as an individual. Theway that power is looked at
there then is very much in thosesame ways. So the individual
accountability person will viewpower as this is my own thing, I
(30:27):
have my own degree of power, Imust protect it. And if I am to
give it away, I am in control ofthat. However, on the other end
of the spectrum, on the groupaccountability, you could say,
power belongs to our community.
In fact, our leader helps us tounderstand what is the nature of
(30:48):
the power that we have, and whatpower does in that community is
determined by the community aswell. So when these two
polarities come together, if youhave people that are working
together from two different endsof the spectrum, they really do
need to consider number one,that's what I would just like to
(31:11):
say, number one, be aware thatthat spectrum that that
dimension of culture is at play,before we go throwing rocks at
other people to say, You're notthinking about it, right? We
need to first understand thereis a dimension number two, where
am I and where are they? Andnumber three? How do we create
(31:36):
an environment where we can bothbe comfortable in understanding
where the other person is?
Marco Blankenburgh (31:45):
Let me ask you a contentious question.
Because as the word agency comesto mind, so agency is talked
about a lot in North America andin Europe, especially agency is
a form of power, I would say.
But it seems that it's veryoften used in an individual
accountability way. And I wouldalmost say sometimes even to the
(32:11):
detriment of communityaccountability. So sorry to drop
this on you. But what are yourthoughts on that? You know, I
believe in agency, I believeit's important, but what happens
when it gets so emphasized? Thatit actually sacrifices community
accountability?
Ming-Jinn Tong (32:32):
So when agency so just a quick definition on
agency, let me see if we're onthe same page here. Agency
highlights a person's freedom, aperson's rights and a person's
ability to create to controltheir destiny or to be able to
speak into it to take action ontheir own will. Is that right?
(32:57):
Yeah. Okay. So if we were if wewere to go with that definition,
I think that my firstobservation is, the definition
itself begins with a person andnot a group or a community. And
so when you have someone who iscoming from the wanting to move
(33:21):
on agency perspective, the firstthing that they need to be aware
of is people in their communitythat come from a group
accountability place, they willlook in to that acting out of
your agency, as self centered,perhaps they might look at it as
(33:42):
disconnected. They might look atit as kind of a lone wolf idea.
Yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (33:49):
And the, we talked about one of the
dimensions, you selected theaccountability, one, I don't
know if we probably have timefor this, but the one that that
I have seen around the globe,that is often misunderstood,
when it comes to hierarchy andpower is the destiny dimension.
So, it sort of is linked to thisidea of agency, but directive
(34:13):
destiny is I take charge of myfuture, my opinion is important,
I need to find ways to to voicethat opinion, I need to be part
of the decision making process.
My thoughts and my ideas need tobe heard. And the other side of
that dimension is directeddestiny and indirect destiny.
(34:34):
Typically people accepthierarchy, they accept that that
that they will get their sort ofmarching orders from above, and
that they get told what to doand they're perfectly happy with
that. And I've talked to manypeople around the world who come
(34:55):
from a director, Destinyenvironment and And they
actually love it. Today theyfeel it gives them security, it
gives them stability, they knowexactly what's expected from
them. They, quote unquote, fallin line, but they don't even see
it that way. For them, itcreates flow that creates that
bound healthy boundaries aroundhow I go about my life, how I go
(35:20):
by my job, etc. And then theother side, people who are
directive Destiny oriented, theysay, Yeah, but no, no, that's
not how life is supposed to belived, you know, you need to
take control, and you need tomake sure that you speak up, and
you need to make sure your voiceis being heard. So that's
another polarity that we findwhere power is sort of
(35:42):
misunderstood across theopposites of the directed versus
directive destiny, what are yourthoughts on it?
Ming-Jinn Tong (35:50):
I love that you said that for myself. I have
always I've always said aboutmyself, I am a number two guy, I
am not the one in charge. And Idon't want to be the one in
charge. And I think that's frommy upbringing, I feel as a
directed Destiny person, I feelso much more comfortable. When I
(36:12):
do not have to be in charge.
Don't let me make the decisions.
Don't give me more power.
Because with power comesresponsibility. I don't want
that responsibility, what Iwould like to do is I would like
to be a cog in your machine, Ibelieve in your machine, I
believe your machine producesgood things. And so the, the
greatest fulfillment I can havefor myself, is to participate in
(36:37):
the system you set up, and youcan help me flourish when you
tell me go this far left and gothis far right? Between that
it's up to you, and make ithappen in this space. And I can
spin freely and quickly andeffectively, in my position. And
(36:57):
so that's my that's my ownpersonal place on the on the
total dimension, you know, ondimension destiny, I enjoy when
I can be used well, for thedevelopment of a greater
purpose. Give me a role and Iwill flourish in it. I have not
(37:18):
desiring to become a leader. Letme serve. That's that's who I
am. Yeah. So that's how it mightsound? That is my reality.
Marco Blankenburgh (37:33):
Yeah, yeah.
No, I love that. I love that,you know, you can speak from
personal experience and whereyour sweet spot is, so to speak.
And we don't have time to talkabout this. But what comes to
mind is, there's some reallyinteresting articles that talk
about how the pandemic washandled by different governments
around the world, and howenvironments who were more
(37:57):
directed Destiny oriented, therewas much more compliance. And if
good decisions were made by thegovernment, in a directed
Destiny environment, typically,the way they manage the pandemic
was actually much better. Ofcourse, it requires good
decision making. Sometimes, thatwasn't the case. But indirectly,
Destiny environments, even ifgood decisions were made by the
(38:21):
government, sometimes thatdesire to make my voice heard
and then caused all kinds ofchallenges in the system.
Ming-Jinn Tong (38:31):
Yeah, that's right. So it really does depend
on trust, I will happily andeternally serve as a part of
your system. If I trust you, ifI know you're producing good.
And if and if I can see it, youknow that the pandemics is kept
at bay, numbers of deaths arelow, I'm going to continue to
(38:55):
trust you and happilyparticipate. So that is, you
know, it's funny, even talkingabout this helps me to realize
how much I am a directed Destinyperson that I don't I don't
really want to be in chargetrying to get more power is not
what I'm about. What I want todo is I want to see power used
well, and I will play my role tomake sure that happens.
Marco Blankenburgh (39:19):
And I love the fact that you mentioned
trust in this equation, becausethat is absolutely important. So
power use well creates trust inthe system. And I've heard
people say, I trust my boss, ormy leader, my boss has my back.
I know thy will are willing todie for me, I know that they
(39:43):
will be there for me. Andtherefore I reciprocate with
loyalty with commitment andgiving 100% of who I am into the
system. So trust is superimportant in that in that whole
discussion. Now, we started inthe beginning that with saying
(40:03):
that we do have a bit of achallenge when it comes to power
as humanity. You even mentionedan example we say when power is
used in a beautiful way peopleare initially suspicious, you
mentioned that you've seen ittake up to six months for people
to say, Oh, she's for real.
She's consistent in how sheoperates. Or he's actually doing
this, not just to, to push anagenda, but it's the genuine
(40:28):
version of our leader. So how dowe get there? How do we change
our relationship with power?
What can we practically do?
Yeah.
Ming-Jinn Tong (40:40):
So what a great question. Number one is
awareness, we have to be awarethat we have power every person
from the least powerful person,to the most powerful person, we
all have a degree of power, soto become aware that you as a
leader have power. And numbertwo, not just general awareness,
(41:02):
but specific awareness, whichmeans listening, and observing,
and having voices that you arewilling to listen to, you should
ask this to the people aroundyou. Can you for the next week,
make observations about theimpact of My presence, anywhere
(41:25):
I go, what's the impact of Mypresence, and then speak it to
me, and I will listen to you.
Because understanding thespecifics of your power is the
first way the first thing youneed to do to be able to use it
well. Number two, once youunderstand the impact of your
presence, you need to then beginto evaluate. These are the
(41:49):
impacts of My presence that Iwant to augment. And these are
the impacts of My presence, thatI need to evaluate more, and
maybe I need to call them, Ineed to change them. But to be
aware that as a leader, as soonas you step in the room, you are
(42:10):
making an impact doesn't matterif you said a word, just your
presence. So number one,awareness, number two,
evaluation, understanding howyour impact is. And then I think
number three, is engaging in adiscussion with your
organization, about those thoseimpacts that you have, and
(42:34):
inviting people into thatconversation. It could backfire.
Here's how it could backfire.
People could say this is a thisis a trap, you are luring me in
to be later punished. And ifthat's what you are really
about, don't do that. However,if you are willing to listen,
(42:59):
and willing to understand atboth a knowledge and an
emotional level, the impact I'mhaving on the people that I'm
leading is such and such andsuch. And they are telling me
that they would be betterserved. If these changes were
made. Some things may be somethings you know, you might hear,
(43:24):
Well, you have a mean look onyour face. Well, I didn't, I
didn't mean to have a mean lookon my face. That's just my face.
So sometimes we hear things wedon't want to hear that we don't
want to accept. And this iswhere humility comes in. Am I
willing to believe that even abenevolent act of saying hello,
(43:46):
could be scary to someone? Itdoesn't necessarily mean I need
to change necessarily, right?
We're dealing with lots ofdifferent people. But being
willing to listen to what peopleare saying. And taking small
steps to have discussions towardchange, I think is how we slowly
turn the ship from maybe amisuse of power to benevolent
(44:09):
use of power.
Marco Blankenburgh (44:13):
And even as you speak, made me realize that
that's not necessarily anexternal journey. First. It's an
it's an internal journey.
Because ultimately, it's itstarts to ask questions, if I'm
in a leadership position. Howmuch does this leader perceive
position gives me identity, forinstance, and the more identity
(44:35):
that position gives me the moreI want to hold on to it. And the
more I am not able to think weas opposed to I'm only thinking
about me, so it does a deepersoul searching on us that I
think needs to happen especiallyif you're in a leadership
position. I'm not you know, am Iin this position because the
(44:58):
position gives me value theposition gives me identity, then
it's very hard to be beempowering, and be what we call
life giving. But that let'slet's go one step further.
Because you mentioned earlieron, everybody has power. And
what I often find on teams,people say, Yeah, but I can't
change anything. And what I findis when you start talking about
(45:21):
thoughts, words and actions,then people start saying, oh,
yeah, I could actually make somechanges. Interestingly, the
teams that we work with rightaround the world, when it comes
to that discussion, one of themost common mentioned points is,
oh, we need to stop gossiping.
(45:46):
Because gossip is a form ofwielding power. And I always
joke with people I say, Well,let's talk about positive
gossip. What would that looklike? So turning your words not
into from Gossip intoaffirmation into praise into? So
how can we, even if we're goingto code in a normal team player,
(46:11):
people might say, well, I don'thave any power. So how could we
create a positive relationshipwith with power? In terms of how
we think how we speak and how weact? What would be some
practical things besides, youknow, positive gossip versus
negative gossip?
Ming-Jinn Tong (46:28):
Yeah. So let's look at even that statement, I
don't have any power, what am Igoing to do? Even in that, that
there could be a wielding ofpower, right? So what you are,
in essence saying is, don'tassign any power to me, I am, in
fact, powerless. Therefore, whenwe talk about positive change in
(46:53):
the organization, you need toremove my name from that change.
And that's actually a way thatpeople can start around
responsibility, instead ofsaying, Okay, our organization,
it depends on everyone. And nomatter even if I really feel
(47:13):
like I don't have power, I amstill belonging to the
organization. So, again, whatare the practical steps that
someone who feels quitepowerless, is able to do to
bring about positive change inthe workplace? Boy, I would say,
so major caveat here, therereally is such a thing as a
(47:37):
safety, and even psychologicalsafety. So in as much as you can
operate in a safe space, I thinkthat exercising and
demonstrating courage, to beamong the first to begin to
(48:00):
trust and begin to relate toleadership, in a trusting way,
can be a major organizationalchanging factor. So let's say
you have a leader who islearning to be more benevolent,
(48:20):
magnanimous, in their use ofpower, they need people to
respond to them in a way thathelps everyone to grow. Now,
again, there is some inherentrisk here, right? Everyone feels
suspicious. But if you can beamong the first to say, okay, my
leader is saying this, and Iwant to take them up on it, I
(48:47):
want to say, Okay, I'm gonna goahead, and I'm gonna respond
positively to this. This beginsto you always put yourself out
there as a test case, for othersto observe what's going to
happen to this person, when theybegin to trust leadership. And
what I would hope is thatleadership will prove that they
(49:11):
are indeed looking for the goodof that person. And others can
join them in beginning to changethe culture. In other words,
it's not just a top down,leadership change that needs to
happen. It's also willingnessfrom those that are in
subordinate positions toparticipate. Again, with the
(49:33):
caveat of safety.
Marco Blankenburgh (49:36):
Yeah, it's fascinating when when people
have to sort of intentionallystart practicing these things,
so you know, positive gossip,speaking well off each other or
giving credit where credit isdue. I remember I was doing an
exercise with a team and theywanted to do sort of small
(49:59):
affirmation cards. So writethree things down from your
colleagues that you appreciate.
And it was introduced by one ofthe team members. And this
person said, Oh, I shouldn'ttake you more than, you know,
for five minutes. And 15 minuteslater, they were still working
on it. And they said, This ishard. And it was it was a
(50:19):
reflective of the fact that theyare very good at pointing out
what's wrong. But they were notso good at pointing out what was
right. And it was like almost amindset change that had to
happen, where amongstthemselves, they have the power
to either choose to point outwhat was what was wrong, or
(50:40):
choose to point out what wasright. And when they first were
asked to do that. They said,Man, this is hard work. But as
they got further into it, it goteasier and easier and easier. So
it's almost like a reprogrammingof the mind as well.
Ming-Jinn Tong (50:57):
Yeah. Yeah. I want to I want to go from the
other side of that.
What does it look like? Forlike, let's say you are you
yourself are a destiny, directedperson. And you are being told,
(51:18):
please report on the work thatyou've done. Now to do that
could really feel like Oh, I'mnot supposed to boast about what
I do. So there's a differentkind. I mean, that's, that's
like courage from the from thebackside, are you willing to
participate in a, you know, whatyou might think of as a self
(51:43):
hosting kind of environment,when really, all you're being
asked to do is to illuminate andinform the actions you've taken,
so that everyone can celebrate,can move forward together to
understand what's happening inthe company. So yes, speaking
(52:04):
well of others, but also takingcourage to cross over to that
other dimension, to speak wellof yourself, actually. And to
know, I'm not going to bepunished for doing that.
Marco Blankenburgh (52:21):
Love that?
Well, I think we landed on somevery practical things that we
do, I think what stands out tome is this, for all of us,
myself included, to have thatrealization that we continuously
are in positions of power. Weare in positions of power in how
we think about ourselves, how wethink about others, how we think
(52:41):
about relationships, about theplace, the context of business,
the team that we operate in. Andyou mentioned earlier on to
really become aware and observe.
And those, we talk aboutperception management to
perceive at a deeper level twoperceive to gather more data
(53:03):
about myself about you about ourrelationship and about the
context. And learn from that.
And one of the things we lovedoing is to, to use our
intercultural tools, threecolors, a worldview and a
cultural mapping imagery, but wealso highly recommend people to
be better student of thepsychology of human beings. So
whatever, you know, whatever youmight be familiar with the
(53:26):
strengths finders, Myers Briggsor everything this good. Yeah,
exactly, you know, perceivebetter gather back more quality
information, more comprehensiveinformation, so that you truly
understand how you impact thecontext and how you are impacted
by the context and by the peoplein that context. And that's
(53:47):
where we start to, to really geta handle on power, but also
start to be more equipped tostart tweaking to start playing
around with different ways ofbeing different ways of
connecting and speaking andacting. And we could talk about
this for hours, probably, but Iwant to thank you for for
(54:09):
joining, ultimately, what we'relooking for in our intercultural
workers, we want to createculture together. So the
conversation around power issuper important. Because if we
don't have a collectiveunderstanding of what we want
power to be, it's going tomisfire on us. So I want to
(54:29):
finish up with that. So how canwe as a team, as a group, it
could be even as a family, butas a group of people that need
to accomplish something togetherand do something together? How
can we collectively reallycreate that common understanding
of power to create that thirdcultural space that common
cultural space?
Ming-Jinn Tong (54:51):
Yeah, so for those of you that are listening,
I get no financial kickback forthis, but I do want to say that
the place to begin And I thinkif you are serious about wanting
to understand the level of powerthat you have are able to
understand how power works. Putyour team through the three
(55:12):
colors of worldview assessment,because that assessment is
designed to not only give youbrand new lenses that you may
have never thought before, butalso to show you realities about
yourself and your team. And itreally is a catalyst. It's an
(55:34):
entry gate to beginconversations in a very safe and
welcoming place. There is noright place to land, there's no
wrong place to land. But we allhave an understanding of culture
deep within ourselves. And whenwe can finally get eyes tangibly
to see how those motivationsinnocence, guilt, honor, shame,
(55:57):
power, fear are working in us.
It unlocks deep and powerfulconversations, perspectives, and
the ability to finally seethings, again, that invisible
currency at work, it actuallythrows paint, and helps us to
see how it's working.
Marco Blankenburgh (56:17):
Thank you so much for joining such an
important topic. And we need anawful lot of deep diving as
humanity, including myself, toreally understand it better to
embrace it to even maybe, youknow, get to the point where we
can celebrate power in apositive way. So thank you for
for joining this conversation.
And details on how to connectwith Ming Jin will be shared in
(56:39):
the notes of this podcast aswell as some hyperlinks on
further reading that you'll findon the knowledge books comm
website. And thank you everybodyfor joining. And thank you, Jim,
for being on this podcast againwith us. Really appreciate it.
Ming-Jinn Tong (56:56):
Great to be here. Thanks for having me,
Marco.
Marco Blankenburgh (56:59):
Thank you so much for joining us for this
episode of the cultural agilitypodcast. If you enjoyed today's
episode, share it with someone.
Best way to help us out is byleaving a review on your
favorite podcast, app or channelor forward and recommend this
podcast people around you. Asalways, if any of the topics we
discuss today intrigue you, youwill find links to articles
(57:22):
discussing them in greater depthin the podcast notes. If you
would like to learn more aboutintercultural intelligence and
how you can become moreculturally agile, you can find
more information and hundreds ofarticles at knowledge works.com
Special thanks to Jason Carterfor composing the music on this
(57:42):
podcast and to the wholeknowledge works team for making
this podcast a success. Thankyou Anita Rodriquez, Ara as is
back Ian Raji Suraj and thanksto VIP and George for audio
production, Rosalyn Raj forscheduling and Caleb Strauss for
marketing and helping producethis podcast
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