June 25, 2024 • 55 mins
What if understanding three simple colors could transform your perspective on intercultural connection? Join us as Shelley Reinhart welcomes Marco, International Director of KnowledgeWorks, to discuss the innovative framework known as the Three Colors of Worldview. We challenge the limitations of traditional intercultural literature by unveiling a more profound approach that transcends country-specific clichés. Drawing inspiration from psychometric tools and Roland Muller's groundbreaking work, this discovery tool offers deeper insights into our self-cultural identities, moving beyond superficial tips and tricks.
Dive into the intricate dynamics of honor, innocence, and power with us. Marco shares personal stories highlighting how these powerful forces shape decision-making and behavior. From family expectations to societal norms, discover how these cultural drivers influence choices about education, marriage, and career. Shelley and Marco bring real-life experiences to provide a vivid illustration of how these concepts operate across different cultural contexts, offering invaluable lessons and fostering greater cultural awareness.
Take the Three Colors of Worldview Assessment at interculturalagility.com/assessments
| In this episode, you will learn:
- The Origins of the Three Colors of Worldview Discovery Tool
- The Beautiful Side of Each of the Three Colors of Worldview
- Why Shame, Guilt, and Fear are Part of the Three Colors Framework
| Read More about the Three Colors of Worldview
- Three Colors of Worldview (https://www.knowledgeworkx.com/post/three-colors-of-worldview)
- Cultural Paradigms and Traffic Jams (https://www.knowledgeworkx.com/post/cultural-paradigms-and-traffic-jams)
- The Beauty of Power (https://www.knowledgeworkx.com/post/the-beauty-of-power)
-- Looking for a book to take your cultural agility to the next step, check out the Ultimate Intercultural Question Book brought to you by KnowledgeWorkx.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:00):
So it's real and we wanted to create a space
where it becomes safe to talkabout these things, especially
maybe in families, maybe inschools or in workplaces.
If you don't get a linethinking about what we do with
these things, then they start tolive their own life.
(00:22):
So we purposefully kept thoseemotion-loaded words in there,
with a commitment that ourfacilitators, our coaches, are
gentle, they are culturallearners and they will work
really hard to create a safespace to open up that
conversation.
Shelley Reinhart (00:54):
Welcome to the Unlocking Cultural Agility
podcast, where we hear from someof the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world to help you
become more culturally agile intoday's complex environments.
I'm your host, shelley Reinhart, global Network Liaison at
KnowledgeWorks, where every dayI work with our practitioners to
help individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
(01:18):
that same complex world.
This is the first of twoepisodes exploring the three
colors of worldview, and in thisepisode we're going to
introduce and explore the threecultural worldview drivers.
Our cultural drivers have astrong influence on how we think
(01:38):
, how we speak and how we act,and they can be found at the
root of why we do what we do, asyou'll see today.
In the next episode we're goingto continue by looking at how
we can apply these culturalworldview drivers to our world
and in our lives.
Let's get started.
(02:01):
Welcome to the Unpacking Agilitypodcast.
Again, we are here with anotherwonderful topic that I'm really
excited to unpack today withnone other than Marco, our
international director and thefounder of KnowledgeWorks works.
(02:28):
We have decided to kind of goback to the beginning, to the
creation story, so to speak, ofone of the essential elements of
our products the three colorsof worldview.
So kind of the essence of whatis the three colors of worldview
assessment, what are the threecolors of worldview?
So we're excited to kind ofbreak that down for you today,
(02:48):
and Marco is here with us to dothat.
So thank you so much, marco.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:54):
I'm very much looking forward to it.
There's so much to say aboutthis.
Yes, also very, very close tomy heart as well.
It's not just the product, it'sso much more.
Shelley Reinhart (03:04):
Yes, well, and that's exactly what we're going
to talk about today.
So, of course, like I said,you're the international
director and the founder, so I'dlove to talk, to start off with
the essence again.
So the three colors ofworldview.
So is the creation of the ThreeColors of Worldview where
(03:25):
KnowledgeWorks essentially began?
Is that sort of where itstarted?
Marco Blankenburgh (03:29):
we, we had a diverse team of five people
asia, africa, middle east europeand america actually were on
the team and we were exploringhow we could use our joint
(03:55):
intercultural skills to have apositive impact in in the
workplace, and we started to todo research on well what's out
there, you know.
So in those days, interculturalpress was still a separate
entity.
And the more we started to lookat books that were written
(04:16):
about anything intercultural,the more we realized very early
on that a lot of those bookswere selling from one country
into another, negotiating fromone country into another,
relocating.
You know, if you move to acountry X, then you're from
country Y.
Here is your tips and tricksand do's and don'ts.
(04:36):
And, to be honest, our team wasstationed in Dubai and we had,
you know, jobs in the localmarket where everything was
intercultural.
And the more books we bought,the more discouraged we actually
became.
Because the more we realizedwait a minute, this is all like,
(04:57):
in essence, pretty well writtentips and tricks, do's and
don'ts, books, and we realizedvery quickly that that was not
exactly where we wanted to go.
We realized from the complexityof cultural dynamics that we
were working in and that webelieved the world was moving
(05:19):
towards a lot more the classical.
You know, the average Brazilianrelocates to Germany and needs
to know what the average germanthinks, speaks and how they act,
and we felt that that's notwhat we want to contribute to.
So we, we started to say thenwhat you know we already were
familiar with the world ofpsychometrics at that time.
(05:41):
So in other words, psychologous, psychometric tools measure
typically personality or certainbehavioral traits, and they're
all based on debatable butuniversal frameworks.
So you have the jungianframework, you have the big five
of psychology, you havemarston's framework, etc those
(06:02):
universal frameworks supposedly,are applicable to every human
being on the planet.
And that then lends itself tothen say, oh, let's create a
questionnaire.
And then that questionnaireleads into a report, and that
report produces a unique storyabout you, who you are as a
psychological human being.
And we thought, why can't welook into doing something
(06:26):
similar for culture?
So instead of saying I happento be from the netherlands,
instead of saying, oh, let's seewhat the average dutchman does,
you know how these things speak, and instead of doing that,
saying well, can we find a wayto help mar Marco understand who
he is as a cultural human being?
(06:46):
So that was sort of thechallenge we gave ourselves.
And then one day one of myCanadian colleagues he walked
into the office with a paper.
It was written by Roland Muller, who is an anthropologist in
the region, and he sort of cameup with this idea well, would
there potentially be culturaldrivers that are undercurrents
(07:11):
in cultures, and could itpotentially be true that those
undercurrents, those culturaldrivers, might be present in the
same way?
As you know, mbti is based on aframework that's used all
around the world, or this wouldit be those cultural drivers
might be present all around theworld and we looked at it and we
(07:31):
thought this is special, thisis something unique.
We've never seen this before.
You know nothing like the allthe books that we had bought and
we said hmm this could be thebeginning of creating an
assessment that starts to answerthat question who am I as a
cultural human being?
So we asked.
The author said hey, we got ahold of this.
(07:52):
We would love to do more withit, can we?
You know, this is your work.
And he said by all means, takeit, you know, and run with it.
So he was very gracious andthat's how it got started.
So we are now into its fourthedition.
Four iterations the first twowere on paper and then we moved
(08:15):
online.
But even the third edition,which was online, there was
still so much work to be done.
Now, a month ago ago, wereleased the fourth edition and
it's becoming richer and richer.
Shelley Reinhart (08:28):
so oh, I love it.
Yeah, that's sort of thebackstory, that's its creation
story.
So if you had to describe it inone sentence, describe,
describe it in one sentence forme.
What, what does the assessmentmap?
What does it determine?
Marco Blankenburgh (08:46):
So I would say it answers the question what
drives me as a cultural humanbeing?
What are the deepest?
drivers of my cultural wiring.
So you could say the same as inMyers-Briggs.
What Myers-Briggs became famousfor is introversion.
Extroversion In the world ofDISC it's you know, are you more
(09:12):
relational or more taskoriented?
So these types of things areembedded in the tool and I would
say the three colors ofworldview, it's really those
deeper cultural drivers.
But the way we designed it isto answer that at the personal
level, so that I get personalinsight in how that works for me
(09:35):
.
And yeah, so I don't know ifthat is a one.
So that's great, and you saidearlier that our drivers have a
strong influence on how we think, speak and act, absolutely yeah
, and for most people it's um,once they get exposed to the
three colors of worldview, thenthey realize how profound and
(09:56):
how deep this stuff is.
Yeah, when you, when you firsttry to explain it to people,
they say, really, I didn't knowthat that layer of my being was
even there.
Yes, I carry a passport, I grewup in a certain place or grew
up in multiple places, but isthere a layer called cultural
(10:17):
drivers?
And once they see the report,they say, oh, now I get it.
Yeah, I see it everywhereeverywhere.
Shelley Reinhart (10:23):
That's been the case for me.
Yes, I see it everywhere and itit has changed the way I see
the world and the way I seemyself.
That that has been very truefor me.
Marco Blankenburgh (10:32):
I can't unsee it we always warn people
about that.
Yeah, yeah, it's.
Shelley Reinhart (10:37):
That has been very true I don't want to go
back.
I don't want to, I don't wantto come back to the pre-3C
Shelley, so to speak.
But yeah, Right.
So now that we've kind of giventhat big overview of what is
the assessment, what are thethree colors?
You know how do they work onthe assessment.
(10:57):
Let's just talk about the threecolors individually.
First of all, why did you nameit the three colors?
Why three colors?
Like what?
What is that?
Marco Blankenburgh (11:09):
yeah, um, a number of reasons.
One is we needed some sort of ametaphor.
So my wife is a photographer,so at home, at home, we're
inundated with the world ofcolor.
So, uh, there is cmyk and ogband now the three colors.
That's the world view frameworkhas three drivers and three
(11:34):
world view drivers.
So when we started to look for ametaphor, we thought that the
idea of connecting color to theframework First of all, culture
is colorful, especially when yougo around the world, but also
the way our three colors ofworldview show up.
There's typically a combinationof all three for most people on
(11:55):
this planet and typically oneof them is maybe more important,
or two, and then a smallerpercentage of the world
population.
All three of them are almostequally important.
So when we started looking atthat, we thought well, the whole
world of color might be a nicemetaphor.
So we connected the rgb colorpalette, so to speak, to the
(12:21):
three colors of worldview.
And and it is a nice metaphor,but, as every metaphor goes,
they always go wrong at onepoint or another.
But then you could.
You know the rgb scheme in inthe world of computers, 16.7
million colors can be createdwith three red, green and blue.
Yes and no.
(12:43):
We don't have 16.7 millioniterations of the three colors
of worldview, but there is a lotof possible combinations.
Yes, so that idea as a metaphoris helpful.
It's colorful, it's complex,it's simple.
You know the language.
It's simple, but it is complexat the same time.
Shelley Reinhart (13:05):
Okay, that's helpful.
I love that.
Yes, so that's the three colorsof worldview.
That's why it's named as it is.
Okay, let's look at eachworldview.
So first of all, explain to mewhat a worldview is.
What is a worldview and whydoes it matter?
Marco Blankenburgh (13:22):
that's a a complicated question.
So in the world of academia, wealways need to quantify that we
are not necessarily talkingabout worldview from a large
picture point of view.
We're talking about culturalworldview drivers.
(13:44):
So it's a slice of the largerpicture of worldview, especially
in the world of anthropologyand sociology and theology, even
where worldview, then, isunpacked in many facets.
We're just zooming in on onefacet and that's how my cultural
journey has shaped the way II'm culturally wired and we
(14:09):
quantify that with those threeworldview drivers that's helpful
.
Shelley Reinhart (14:13):
Okay, cultural worldviews all right.
So that's how I see the worldfrom a cultural perspective.
Marco Blankenburgh (14:21):
Is that how you would say, yeah, yeah yeah,
so it's a, it's a lens throughwhich we see the world, so it
indeed shapes.
So when I wear those glasses,so to speak, it shapes how, how
I think, how I speak and how Iact okay, that's helpful.
Shelley Reinhart (14:38):
All right, let's look at the first one
together.
So, honor and shame, let's lookat.
Let's look that first word.
But can you tell me what ishonor?
Marco Blankenburgh (14:48):
So honor is both external and internal at
the same time.
So it's something you feel.
You feel either honorable.
You feel that you are a personwho is in and of themselves
honorable, or a person who ispart of an honorable community,
(15:11):
or a person who might be able togive honor to my dad, or the
fact that my dad is, my dadallows me to be honorable just
because of the history, etc.
(15:32):
Or it could be a company.
I might have a sense of pridebecause I work for a certain
company or I work for a certainleader in that company or with a
certain leader in that company.
Then it's also external, soit's what others bestow on me.
So the sense of external honoris basically do people reinforce
(15:54):
, endorse the existence of honor?
So is is marco or is shelly?
Are they honorable people?
And then you need to talk topeople who know us and listen to
what they say about us.
So yeah, it's both external andinternal.
And we listen to parents talkto their kids about honor.
(16:19):
It's typically along the linesof you are a child of this
family, or you are a son ordaughter of us, or of a larger
cluster of families or a tribe,or when you start traveling
internationally, you are part ofthis nation.
You need to make us pride proud, you know.
(16:42):
So yeah, it's very hard to say.
You know that honor can bequantified.
There's a lot of externalendorsement, external
affirmation comes with it, butit's also a feeling, it's a
sense of being honorable andit's not always easy to explain.
Shelley Reinhart (17:07):
That's good.
Thank you, that's reallyhelpful.
So how is that linked to shame?
How do they work together?
Marco Blankenburgh (17:17):
Yeah.
So I think examples are alwaysthe easiest to connect with with
.
So, if I remember, I was alittle bit of a rebellious kid
and I would test my teachers inschool.
No way, and I still remember Ihaven't.
(17:38):
I must have been really small,but I I do remember the one day
that the head teacher came toour house and we have we have
sort of a path that gets up tothe front door and uh, I, I
heard him come, I saw him, Iknew exactly why he was there,
(18:01):
and then my mom opened the doorand she immediately felt you
know, oh no, I'm going to hearsomething about one of my sons.
Which was exactly what happenedand that feeling of what has one
of my sons or what have my sonsnow done this time?
(18:24):
Has one of my sons, or whathave my sons now done this time?
And I was eventually called inand I was told that in those
uncertain terms that this wasunacceptable.
And then, of course, later on,my dad was always a bit chill
about this, maybe because he wasmore of a rebel himself.
But my mom was saying, yeah,you know, we as the Blankenberg
(18:47):
family, we don't do things likethat.
But I could see the sense ofshame on my mom's face when she
opened the door when the headteacher came in.
Yes, so it's falling out ofline or doing things that people
(19:07):
frown, you know, and it's likewhat you did, what I was not
expecting that from somebodylike you.
So that sense of where yourhonor is basically diminished
through your, your words,through your actions, and then,
(19:29):
either, shame happens justthinking about it.
So let's say, oh yeah, myfriends invited me to do xyz and
I really want to do it.
But I'm going to say no,because if my parents find out,
if my sibling, my older brother,finds out, or if my grandpa
would know that I had said yesto my friends to do X, y, z, I
(19:54):
would hear about it, you know.
And then it becomes a deterrent, almost.
Yeah.
Shelley Reinhart (20:00):
Yeah, okay, so I see how they're linked.
Marco Blankenburgh (20:21):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So I see how they're linked.
So honor and shame and kind ofthe balance for me culturally,
and avoiding shame isautomatically linked to that.
Then the way I make decisionswho to see, what to do, to say
(20:47):
what not to say, how to share myopinion if I would share my
opinion at all, or just stayquiet or say things like I'm not
sure about that, I don't know,purposefully, because the main
driver is to maintain honor andavoid shame.
So everything I do becomesgoverned by that and in very
practical terms that could meanthat the family decides where I
go to school.
(21:07):
Of course that is a decisionthat either adds honor to me and
the family or potentially addsshame.
Deciding who to marry, where tolive, which company to in the
future work for All thesedecisions become connected to
(21:29):
consideration.
Does it bring more honor orwould it potentially diminish
the amount of honor due us?
Shelley Reinhart (21:36):
So yeah, and when I'm interacting with
someone from this worldview, oreven if I'm not, am I aware that
there's an honor-shameinterchange?
And when I'm speaking, am Iaware that I'm either giving
honor or shame?
In other words, do you knowwhat I'm saying?
Marco Blankenburgh (21:56):
That is the tricky part, because if you, for
instance, are not familiar with, let's say, we're talking about
honor-shame now, if you're notfamiliar with it I was a are not
familiar with.
Let's say, we're talking abouthonor shame now, if you're not
familiar with it.
I was a little bit familiarwith it.
I grew up in a small village inthe netherlands where what the
neighbors think and thereputation of the family was
very important, so I wassomewhat familiar with it.
(22:19):
But moving into the middle eastand doing a lot of work in
africa, marrying into africa, um, I I realized how much I didn't
know at all.
So in my case, I a lot of mymistakes.
It was only sort of by the graceof people actually pulling me
(22:39):
aside or having the courage totalk to me about hey, marco, uh,
how did, how did you feel thatconversation went?
And then, and then they wouldsay I would say, uh, but it was
okay.
And then they would say, well,can I give you some feedback?
When you said this, do yourealize that that caused a very
embarrassing moment for theother person?
(23:01):
And I would say, really, I haveno idea.
Fortunately, having peoplearound me, you know.
Starting to explain it, Irealized, man, there's so much
to learn.
Shelley Reinhart (23:13):
Because they were aware of the honor that was
being exchanged or not and youwere completely unaware.
Perhaps You're like not even.
Marco Blankenburgh (23:26):
We buy those worldview drivers.
You know, ming-jin says thoseare the glasses that color your
world, color your thinking andspeaking and acting.
And by default that's theglasses we wear because that's
how we so far have beensuccessful in life.
And when you then startinteracting with people who are
culturally very different fromyou, then all of a sudden your
(23:51):
default way of operatingactually backfires on you.
Yeah, and it starts sometimeswith simple things, like when I
first met my wife's grandmother.
Etiquette was very importantfor her.
That was an honorable thingthat her family followed
(24:12):
etiquette.
So I totally missed that part.
So I shamed who is now my wifeand uh, her grandma was very
gracious but like, for instance,dessert was put on the table
and I picked up the spoon andstarted eating and everybody was
like grandma needs to sit down.
(24:33):
She picks up the spoon and theneverybody else picks up the
spoon and then and then I addedeven more shame by by picking up
my bowl and finishing the lastremains.
In my case, you know, in theNetherlands that would show that
you really liked the dessert.
Shelley Reinhart (24:52):
Ah, Mark, he and her.
Marco Blankenburgh (24:56):
No, no, and grandma was all flustered.
But there is more, Marco, thereis more.
Shelley Reinhart (25:03):
Oh, she, yeah, but there is more, marco, there
is more, so it's, it's you know, those are fun stories to tell
afterwards and they arerelatively innocent.
Marco Blankenburgh (25:11):
But you can really step into the unknown and
where you just mess things upbadly yeah.
Shelley Reinhart (25:19):
I was talking to Mingjin.
Mingjin Tong is one of ourpractitioners, I see, our
practitioners.
He was saying that because Isaid to him he was raised in
honor, shame, and I said I justcan't imagine interacting with
that sense of of honor versusshame all the time, like when
I'm speaking to you, you knowaware that I'm either giving you
(25:43):
honor or I'm shaming you.
It's just, it's just so much apart of my subconscious.
And he said well, I, I can'timagine interacting with you
that that way, like not havingthat subconscious.
It's so much a part of the wayI think about every interaction
and every conversation.
Marco Blankenburgh (25:59):
And I'm like wow.
Shelley Reinhart (26:02):
It's just, I was with.
Marco Blankenburgh (26:04):
About two months ago, I was with a family
working with their businessconglomerate and we started a
family development program andthere were four generations in
the room.
Shelley Reinhart (26:19):
Wow.
Marco Blankenburgh (26:21):
The old grandfather wanted to be there
because he was very excitedabout this new program and he
wanted to say a few words at thebeginning.
And then the next generationwas there and then two more
generations, so the youngestperson was early 20s and the
oldest person was at least intheir 70s.
And it was fascinating as thewhen the older generation was in
(26:46):
the room, whatever they said,everybody was endorsing it and
respecting it and, you know,even the body language was like
almost like yes, you know, werespect you.
And then they were there justto show their support for the
program, and then they left, andthen, little by little, the
conversation started to change,because they wanted to honor the
(27:11):
older generation while theywere there.
They were not disrespectful, butthey were.
As soon as when they left andwe got further into the program,
they started to talk abouttheir vision for the future and
how some of the ways had tochange.
Uh, but they were very, very uhrespectful in the way they
(27:32):
packaged it, but they were notable to talk about that when the
, the third, fourth, you know,the older generations, were in
the room and it.
It's a classical example of howhonor versus shame then drives
everything that happens in theroom, yes, every conversation,
and everything that's said andeverything that's not said.
Shelley Reinhart (27:54):
Everything said and not said.
Yes, yeah, that's so good,marco.
I love this picture of thisworldview.
I feel like we've fleshed itout very well.
Thank you, that is so helpful.
Marco Blankenburgh (28:07):
Let's look at innocence and guilt next in
the beginning, when we startedto use these tools, we, we
wouldn't explain to people whywe have quite emotive words in
(28:29):
this framework.
So, to present people withwords like shame and guilt and
fear, yeah, it's like whoa, youknow where are you taking them?
Yeah, they're strong words and,um, we, we talked a lot about
well, well, what do we do?
And we really felt that weneeded to keep those strong
emotional words in the frameworkBecause, when it comes to our
(28:52):
cultural worldview drivers,these are very real.
So, for instance, just talkingnow about honor versus shame and
the avoidance or thediminishing impact of shame
becomes a preoccupation almost.
Um, and when, when you talk topeople who have been shamed,
especially if that was done inpublic in an honor shame
(29:13):
environment.
Yeah, that leaves deep, deepscars, you know yes, yes and so
it's real and we wanted tocreate a space where it becomes
safe to talk about these thingsBecause, especially maybe in
families, maybe in schools or inworkplaces, if you don't get a
(29:37):
line thinking about what we dowith these things, then they
start to live their own life.
So we purposefully kept thoseemotion loaded words in there,
with a commitment that ourfacilitators, our coaches, are
gentle, they are culturallearners, they will work really
(29:58):
hard to create a safe space toopen up that conversation.
Shelley Reinhart (30:02):
Oh, that's good.
That's good, marco.
Yes, and I can say that whenour practitioners are trained,
we are trained to be culturallearners and understand with
humility that these are strongwords and there are painful
places that they can go.
Marco Blankenburgh (30:22):
These these words, yeah yeah, so anyway that
as a in between that's a verygood point.
Shelley Reinhart (30:28):
I'm so glad you you pointed that out.
And guilt is another strong,strong thing I want to avoid at
all times.
So yeah, so tell me aboutinnocence, and guilt and and
innocence.
What is innocence and why is itso important?
Marco Blankenburgh (30:46):
Yeah, like with honor.
You know, a state of innocenceis a condition of being, so to
speak.
So that sense that I have doneeverything to the best of my
ability, or I've made goodchoices, or I lived up to the
standard that was set in societyeither by goals or by policies
(31:10):
or by the law or by a higherauthority, and that sense that
you feel good about yourselfbecause you've done what was
required and therefore you know,the idea of right and wrong is
strongly associated withinnocence and guilt.
So by doing the right thing youcreate that sense of innocence.
(31:33):
I feel good about myselfbecause I've done the right
thing.
And the flip side is also truethat if I don't do the right
thing, I do that which is wrong,and sometimes there is external
standards for that.
Sometimes you create your owninternal standards, but that
sense of I messed up, I've donethe wrong thing, I made the
(31:55):
wrong choice, I did not do myutmost, you know the best I
could and I feel a sense ofguilt because of that.
So it's very much driven bystandards or by agreed upon
levels of performance, forinstance.
(32:15):
Or you often hear people talkabout expectations being met or
expectations not being met.
That's a very, very commonlanguage when it comes to
innocence versus guilt.
Shelley Reinhart (32:29):
Okay, and if you had to contrast honor and
innocence, what would you say isthe biggest difference between
the two?
Marco Blankenburgh (32:37):
Honor very much is linked to my community.
So it's how I represent thecommunity, the family, the tribe
, the business or, if I travel,the nation.
A sense of innocence is morelinked to a standard might be
(32:59):
set by my family, by the localsports club that I'm part of, by
the community of faith or thelaw of the country, but it's
meeting that standard orfollowing that standard that
creates that sense of innocenceor guilt.
Well, with Honor Shame, it'svery much about the community.
(33:22):
The consensus of the communitywants me to do X, y, z.
So if I don't, the sense ofguilt is not the first thing I
feel, right, I feel a sense ofshame because I wasn't a good
representative or goodcontributor to my community.
I wasn't a good representativeor good contributor to my
(33:42):
community.
Shelley Reinhart (33:43):
But in regards to innocence guilt, I felt
guilt because I didn't upholdthe standard that was expected
of me.
I didn't follow the rules.
Okay, that's good.
I love the contrast.
Thank you for just contrastingthat for us.
Okay, so it's a good picture ofinnocence guilt.
(34:05):
Can you just give us an exampleof of innocence guilt, how it
plays out like what's an exampleof innocence being, you know, a
standard being broken, and howthat would instigate I I can
tell you about a clash I hadwhere I had forgotten how strong
a driver that was.
Marco Blankenburgh (34:25):
So I've been outside my home country now for
over 30 years.
I've lived in both honor, shameas well as power, fear oriented
cultures and have worked withmany companies and organizations
that have you know that don'thave Innocence Guild as their
main driver.
So I went to the Netherlandsand I was driving a car.
(34:52):
We were picking up friends fromthe railway station in one of
the cities and I told my wife ohit's hard to find parking, just
sit in the car, I'll quicklycheck the platform at the
railway station and I'll pick upour friends and I'll come back.
And by the time I came back thepolice officer was next to the
(35:13):
car.
He got off his motorbike and hepicked up his book and started
writing.
You know, giving us a ticket,oh dear, and I started talking
to, started writing.
You know, giving us a ticket,dear, and I started talking to
him.
Uh, you know, of course, froman honor, shame perspective, you
, although he is representingthe law at the same time, you
can always have a conversationwith somebody, and you can.
(35:36):
You can see what you can doabout it.
And he got offended by me doingthat because, um, I was in the
wrong place.
I parked in the wrong place.
But I told him, but my wife wasin the car and she has a
driving license.
You could have just told her tomove.
And he looked funny at me andsaid what, what do you mean?
I mean you parked in the wrongplace.
You know, you did the wrongthing.
(35:57):
The you did the wrong thing.
Shelley Reinhart (35:59):
This is the wrong.
What are?
Marco Blankenburgh (36:00):
you talking about?
Yeah, and I was totally missingthat.
I was trying to use tacticsthat were offensive to him, you
know.
Shelley Reinhart (36:17):
Yeah, okay, that's a great example.
Yeah, yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (36:20):
Right, so classical.
You know I was pulling morehonor shame tactics on a police
officer who was rigidlyinnocence guilt, upholding the
law, upholding the law.
He was getting frustrated withme.
Shelley Reinhart (36:35):
Mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
Yes, that's OK.
That's a great example.
What about?
I love the one you use aboutstoplights.
Marco Blankenburgh (36:45):
Yeah, so, yeah, that's another one.
So traffic lights are by andlarge across the world, used in
almost every country, and theytypically are used in a similar
fashion.
So green is go, similar fashion.
(37:06):
So, um, green is go, uh, orangeis watch out.
Now in quite a few countriespeople say speed up, uh, and
then red is stop.
Yeah, red is stop.
Um, now, uh, when, when, whensomebody who's more innocence,
guilt, right, wrong oriented,when they stop at a traffic
light and you ask them so whydid you stop?
What was the main driver?
Well, it was red.
So the law says if it's red youstop.
(37:29):
Yes, if somebody is more honoror shame oriented, they might
say something like well, I don'tknow who are in the other cars
on the intersection, don't knowwho are in the other cars on the
intersection, and I don't wantto be seen as a family member of
this and this family to berunning a red light because they
are going to talk about me.
(37:50):
So I will stop when the lightis red.
And if you, if you then askthem so what if there's
absolutely no cars at all,there's nobody there and you're
the only one on the intersectionand the light goes red?
And then there would be some,you know, situational thinking.
In some cases they might stillstop for red.
(38:11):
In other cases they might say,well then, the traffic light is
not useful, so then I mightstill go through it.
And when it comes to power offear, I mean the main motivator
is either knowing that on thatintersection sometimes the
policeman is hidden behind thebushes, so to speak.
Shelley Reinhart (38:30):
Yes.
Marco Blankenburgh (38:32):
And I'm afraid that I might get caught.
Or it's really the fear of anaccident or the fear of damage,
either physical damage ormaterial damage.
So the interesting thing is,all three of those drivers might
be at play in somebody.
Shelley Reinhart (38:50):
Yes.
Marco Blankenburgh (38:51):
And yeah, so the motivation is different.
On the outside, the decisionsor the actions that people take
look very similar you stop for ared light.
Decisions or the actions thatpeople take look very similar
you stop for a red light.
And we had a lot of fun writingfour different articles.
Shelley Reinhart (39:15):
They're on our website on how you can use the
three colors of worldview toalmost predict how somebody is
going to behave on the road.
Marco Blankenburgh (39:19):
Those are good.
Yes, I'm glad you brought thisup.
Yeah, it works it actually.
It's fascinating.
You can predict from a distancevery often how people are going
to behave, and those threecolors of worldview have a huge
impact on the flow of traffic Ilove that, and this is a great
segue into the last worldview,the final world that we're
(39:39):
talking about, which, which ispower and fear.
Shelley Reinhart (39:42):
So I'd really like to spend a little time on
this one, because this is thisis the one that I think possibly
people may wrestle with themost, so I'd love to kind of
talk about power and then fear,and then again, how do they
interact?
Why is this important worldview?
(40:02):
Why do we need to include thisone?
Marco Blankenburgh (40:05):
yeah, um, so let's start with power.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So the word power is a trickyword.
Yeah, people typicallyunderstand fear, but the word
power is often seen in anegative light.
So I guess it's because we justlive in a world with lots of
(40:28):
beauty but also with lots ofnegative experiences, and very
often those negative experiencesare connected to abuse of power
in small and big ways.
So that's why one of the sortof side missions of knowledge
works is to to re-establish ahealthier relationship with the
(40:50):
word power I love.
that's one, yeah.
So it's one of the thechallenges we really face, and
it starts with having, in ourcase, if I'm required to lead,
which is a position of power,then do I know how to do that?
Well, do I know how to do thatin a positive way?
(41:11):
And it's so super important.
And it starts with young kids,and I work predominantly with
adults in the workplace, withleaders in the workplace, and I
meet way too many leaders whoreally have not been equipped
properly to work in a healthyway with power.
(41:31):
So we see power as somethingthat's neutral in and of itself.
We are encouraging and coachingand training people to use
power in a life-giving way.
That's what we're after, and Ioften like to add to it that we
all have examples where peoplehave used power in such a way
(41:52):
that it sucked the life out ofyou.
Yes, and we've seen that in theworkplace.
We see that in families, inneighborhoods, in apartment
blocks, etc.
In the sports clubs, inreligious institutions.
So this whole idea that power isin and of itself, neutral and
(42:12):
that we need to wrestle with,what do I do with positions of
power?
What do I do with situationswhere I'm asked to speak in a
meeting, which is actually aposition of power.
What do I do with?
With situations where I'm askedto speak in a meeting which is
actually a position of power,and the words that come out of
my mouth are going to be eitherlife-giving for the people in
(42:32):
that meeting and for the subject, or they're not, and um, that's
yeah.
That's probably one of thereasons why I love talking about
this, because it's my ownbattle as well.
It's a continuous battle to toreally be life-giving in my
thoughts, in my words, in myactions, but also to work with
people who might not be, whomight actually use power to
(42:55):
create, create fear, to createambiguity, uncertainty, which is
then the other side of theequation.
So, yeah, Difficult one in thisworld.
Shelley Reinhart (43:07):
Yes, it is, and I found that I'll speak.
You know, as an American livingin the United States of America
, I do find that people areuncomfortable with the power
that they have.
If they have it Like, sometimesthey don't want to acknowledge
it, they don't even see thatthey have power.
(43:27):
Ming Jin, our ICI practitioner,said that if you want to
understand power, talk to thepowerless.
Talk to people that have it.
You'll get a better sense ofwhat it looks like.
And that's really been profoundfor me to think about.
(43:52):
But so, with that regard, yeah,I love our stance, and helping
me understand the power I havein certain situations has been
so helpful.
So this world and understandingthis worldview has been just
revolutionary for me, profound.
So why so you think that's whythis worldview is important?
I mean you could have just saidokay, innocence, guilt, honor,
(44:15):
shame two crucial worldviews.
We'll stick with those two.
Why add power?
Fear?
And can you just explain thethinking behind it and why you
think it's crucial?
I mean, I think I know, but Iwant to hear what you think.
Marco Blankenburgh (44:30):
Yeah, no, no .
It's crucial to yeah because,first of all, when power is not
either used in a positive way,very often those become the hero
stories of society.
So, and then when power is usedin a negative way, those stories
(44:51):
might also get told, but theyget told more as warnings might
also get told, but they get toldmore as warnings.
And many societies have ebbedand flowed either between the
three colors of worldview.
So if you look at human historyacross the continents and
across the empires, you will seethat even just, let's say, look
(45:13):
at the Roman Empire.
So there was a phase in theRoman Empire where innocence,
guilt, was super important.
Roman culture in those days,honor, was very important.
It was embedded into the waythe military was run.
But there was also a strongsense of innocence, guilt.
But then, as the Roman Empiresort of started to disintegrate,
(45:34):
that's where power starts to bemore and more abused and where
fear slipped into the system.
Then you got the split betweenthe East and Roman Empire, etc.
I'm not a historian but I liketo bring tools like the Three
Colors of Worldview to historyand I love reading about history
(45:54):
.
And you can see it in majorshifts in in societies around
the world that what they do withpower is is so significant.
Uh, you saw it, for instance,with the reformation in europe,
with, uh, the church reformation, the likes likes of Luther and
(46:14):
Calvin, etc.
That was a major shift, goingagainst the unhealthy use of
power by the church and thenbringing people back to what is
right and what is wrong, andencouraging people to find out
for themselves what is right andwrong.
So I love that third worldviewdriver because it explains a lot
(46:40):
of what we experience in in theworld today so so some
societies have recently driftedmore into a way of functioning
and very often that's driven byeither military might or it's
driven by certain leaders cominginto power and, uh yeah, it
(47:02):
just sheds light on so manydilemmas that the world is faced
with at the moment that honorthat the other two worldviews
don't.
Shelley Reinhart (47:11):
They don't.
They can explain in the sameway that power fear does exactly
, yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (47:17):
and then when you think back at heroes
like martha and luther king jr,for him, his thinking about
power and how, uh, his um, youknow non-violent movement was
really about using power in a ina non-violent way, and he talks
a lot about the tension betweenpower and love.
For instance, power without loveactually becomes destructive,
(47:43):
but love without power isactually he calls it anemic.
It doesn't have the impact thatit should have in the world.
So, understanding power andunderstanding what to do with it
, how to use it in a healthy way, how to detect when it's used
in an unhealthy way, andactually being able to be a
(48:06):
force for change if that happens, or at least knowing when you
can be and when you might not beable to be so, yeah, yeah, I
think it's essential that thatthird dimension is there,
because many, many organizationswe work with, power is a major
issue.
It's really what to do with itand how to create a healthy
(48:32):
relationship with power acrossthe layers of an organization,
with direct reports, etc.
But also how to use power in ahealthy way with the world
around us.
It's a significant issue whenwe look at our relationship with
the planet, for instance.
Yeah, there's a major challengewith countries where that form
(48:57):
of abuse of power is nowbecoming a big no-no.
And there's other countrieswhere it's still perfectly OK.
Yes we are, we're in controland we can do with our resources
whatever we want.
And that's another way whereyou can look at our fear, as
that third dimension in threecolors of worldview where it's
(49:18):
really helpful to understand whycertain things are happening in
society.
Shelley Reinhart (49:22):
What about one of the differences between
power, fear and honor?
Shame, well, and innocence,guilt as well, perhaps is the
allegiance to a leader.
Can you kind of talk about thata little bit?
Marco Blankenburgh (49:37):
yeah, it's tricky because as soon as I talk
about that, multiple examplesin the world of politics come to
mind.
Shelley Reinhart (49:45):
That's true but you can let the listeners
make those connections we won'tyeah connections.
We won't say anything.
Marco Blankenburgh (49:53):
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, it's so right, shelley
, it's.
If you vote or pledge allegianceto a leader, that automatically
means that if I want to stay infavor with that leader, I have
to be loyal, I have to showcompliance, have to be loyal, I
(50:20):
have to show compliance, andsometimes that means that I have
to make really hard choices,especially if that leader then
starts to do things that I amsurprised by or that I initially
thought he or she would neverdo.
Yes, exactly, but then in manycases, if power fear is a strong
driver in that context, peoplewill still continue down the
(50:42):
compliance route, especially ifthen, on top of that, the leader
uses power to create fear andto create ambiguity or to use
random punishment, for instance,to keep people in line, and
then it becomes tricky, and Ihave a lot of empathy for people
(51:05):
who get caught in thosesituations.
It doesn't justify what they do, but I fully understand how
enslaving almost that type of asituation can be, and you have
the other side as well.
So our leaders really use powerin a beautiful way and they are
really the protector andnurturer of their people, and
(51:31):
then it's easy to be loyal andit's easy to show that you're
willing to go the extra mile,and I've seen people say I don't
want to leave this organizationbecause I don't want to work
for any other boss.
Yes it's an empowering form ofleadership, and people then say
(51:59):
I don't care about the hierarchybecause I feel protected, I
feel valued and what we're doingis important.
So yeah, you can have thepositive side and the negative
side right and then in power,fear.
Shelley Reinhart (52:12):
My allegiance is to a leader and if that, if
the power changes, then I couldbe.
My allegiance could be tosomeone new, but in honor right,
it flips very quickly yeah, itflips right.
Yeah, okay, so that's I justyeah.
I think that's an interestingpoint, oh yeah, so power, fear,
power, fear.
Marco Blankenburgh (52:32):
Allegiance is, um, it's very much linked to
who is the rising star, who isthe falling star.
Yes, right, so with honor,shame, that's not the case.
Your allegiance is much morelong-term, much more long-term,
okay, yeah.
Shelley Reinhart (52:52):
Oh, thank you Marco.
This is so interesting.
I mean we could talk about thisfor hours because the
implications are everywhere andit affects.
It affects all of all of life.
I mean, I watch the news and Ijust I see it everywhere.
Now, I wish I was.
I often wish you know diplomacy101.
(53:12):
You know, I wish allpoliticians were taught the
worldviews, because it justmakes so much more sense when
you see news through this,through these lenses.
Oh, that's why they're doingthat.
That makes sense.
If this interests you, if you'dlike to learn more about your
personal cultural worldviewdrivers, come on over to
(53:32):
interculturalagilitycom.
It's our website and you canlearn more about the three
colors of worldview assessment.
You can take the assessment andmeet with an intercultural
intelligence practitioner whowill walk you through that
assessment and help youunderstand, kind of, how those
cultural worldview drivers makeyou tick and how they've shaped
(53:54):
you.
So it's just an excitingjourney to understand how
culture has shaped you.
So check it out,interculturalagilitycom.
Marco Blankenburgh (54:08):
Thank you so much for joining us for this
episode of the Cultural AgilityPodcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,share it with someone.
The best way to help us out isby leaving a review on your
favorite podcast app or channel,or forward and recommend this
podcast to people around you.
As always, if any of the topicswe discussed today intrigue you
(54:30):
, you will find links toarticles discussing them in
greater depth in the podcastnotes.
If you would like to learn moreabout intercultural
intelligence and how you canbecome more culturally agile,
you can find more informationand hundreds of articles at
knowledgeworkscom.
A special thanks to JasonCarter for composing the music
(54:52):
on this podcast and to the wholeknowledgeworks team for making
this podcast a success.
Thank you, nita rodriguez, araaziz bakian, rajitha raj, and
thanks to vip and george foraudio this podcast.
So it's real and we wanted to create a space
where it becomes safe to talkabout these things, especially
maybe in families, maybe inschools or in workplaces.
If you don't get a linethinking about what we do with
these things, then they start tolive their own life.
(00:22):
So we purposefully kept thoseemotion-loaded words in there,
with a commitment that ourfacilitators, our coaches, are
gentle, they are culturallearners and they will work
really hard to create a safespace to open up that
conversation.
Shelley Reinhart (00:54):
Welcome to the Unlocking Cultural Agility
podcast, where we hear from someof the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world to help you
become more culturally agile intoday's complex environments.
I'm your host, shelley Reinhart, global Network Liaison at
KnowledgeWorks, where every dayI work with our practitioners to
help individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
(01:18):
that same complex world.
This is the first of twoepisodes exploring the three
colors of worldview, and in thisepisode we're going to
introduce and explore the threecultural worldview drivers.
Our cultural drivers have astrong influence on how we think
(01:38):
, how we speak and how we act,and they can be found at the
root of why we do what we do, asyou'll see today.
In the next episode we're goingto continue by looking at how
we can apply these culturalworldview drivers to our world
and in our lives.
Let's get started.
(02:01):
Welcome to the Unpacking Agilitypodcast.
Again, we are here with anotherwonderful topic that I'm really
excited to unpack today withnone other than Marco, our
international director and thefounder of KnowledgeWorks works.
(02:28):
We have decided to kind of goback to the beginning, to the
creation story, so to speak, ofone of the essential elements of
our products the three colorsof worldview.
So kind of the essence of whatis the three colors of worldview
assessment, what are the threecolors of worldview?
So we're excited to kind ofbreak that down for you today,
(02:48):
and Marco is here with us to dothat.
So thank you so much, marco.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:54):
I'm very much looking forward to it.
There's so much to say aboutthis.
Yes, also very, very close tomy heart as well.
It's not just the product, it'sso much more.
Shelley Reinhart (03:04):
Yes, well, and that's exactly what we're going
to talk about today.
So, of course, like I said,you're the international
director and the founder, so I'dlove to talk, to start off with
the essence again.
So the three colors ofworldview.
So is the creation of the ThreeColors of Worldview where
(03:25):
KnowledgeWorks essentially began?
Is that sort of where itstarted?
Marco Blankenburgh (03:29):
we, we had a diverse team of five people
asia, africa, middle east europeand america actually were on
the team and we were exploringhow we could use our joint
(03:55):
intercultural skills to have apositive impact in in the
workplace, and we started to todo research on well what's out
there, you know.
So in those days, interculturalpress was still a separate
entity.
And the more we started to lookat books that were written
(04:16):
about anything intercultural,the more we realized very early
on that a lot of those bookswere selling from one country
into another, negotiating fromone country into another,
relocating.
You know, if you move to acountry X, then you're from
country Y.
Here is your tips and tricksand do's and don'ts.
(04:36):
And, to be honest, our team wasstationed in Dubai and we had,
you know, jobs in the localmarket where everything was
intercultural.
And the more books we bought,the more discouraged we actually
became.
Because the more we realizedwait a minute, this is all like,
(04:57):
in essence, pretty well writtentips and tricks, do's and
don'ts, books, and we realizedvery quickly that that was not
exactly where we wanted to go.
We realized from the complexityof cultural dynamics that we
were working in and that webelieved the world was moving
(05:19):
towards a lot more the classical.
You know, the average Brazilianrelocates to Germany and needs
to know what the average germanthinks, speaks and how they act,
and we felt that that's notwhat we want to contribute to.
So we, we started to say thenwhat you know we already were
familiar with the world ofpsychometrics at that time.
(05:41):
So in other words, psychologous, psychometric tools measure
typically personality or certainbehavioral traits, and they're
all based on debatable butuniversal frameworks.
So you have the jungianframework, you have the big five
of psychology, you havemarston's framework, etc those
(06:02):
universal frameworks supposedly,are applicable to every human
being on the planet.
And that then lends itself tothen say, oh, let's create a
questionnaire.
And then that questionnaireleads into a report, and that
report produces a unique storyabout you, who you are as a
psychological human being.
And we thought, why can't welook into doing something
(06:26):
similar for culture?
So instead of saying I happento be from the netherlands,
instead of saying, oh, let's seewhat the average dutchman does,
you know how these things speak, and instead of doing that,
saying well, can we find a wayto help mar Marco understand who
he is as a cultural human being?
(06:46):
So that was sort of thechallenge we gave ourselves.
And then one day one of myCanadian colleagues he walked
into the office with a paper.
It was written by Roland Muller, who is an anthropologist in
the region, and he sort of cameup with this idea well, would
there potentially be culturaldrivers that are undercurrents
(07:11):
in cultures, and could itpotentially be true that those
undercurrents, those culturaldrivers, might be present in the
same way?
As you know, mbti is based on aframework that's used all
around the world, or this wouldit be those cultural drivers
might be present all around theworld and we looked at it and we
(07:31):
thought this is special, thisis something unique.
We've never seen this before.
You know nothing like the allthe books that we had bought and
we said hmm this could be thebeginning of creating an
assessment that starts to answerthat question who am I as a
cultural human being?
So we asked.
The author said hey, we got ahold of this.
(07:52):
We would love to do more withit, can we?
You know, this is your work.
And he said by all means, takeit, you know, and run with it.
So he was very gracious andthat's how it got started.
So we are now into its fourthedition.
Four iterations the first twowere on paper and then we moved
(08:15):
online.
But even the third edition,which was online, there was
still so much work to be done.
Now, a month ago ago, wereleased the fourth edition and
it's becoming richer and richer.
Shelley Reinhart (08:28):
so oh, I love it.
Yeah, that's sort of thebackstory, that's its creation
story.
So if you had to describe it inone sentence, describe,
describe it in one sentence forme.
What, what does the assessmentmap?
What does it determine?
Marco Blankenburgh (08:46):
So I would say it answers the question what
drives me as a cultural humanbeing?
What are the deepest?
drivers of my cultural wiring.
So you could say the same as inMyers-Briggs.
What Myers-Briggs became famousfor is introversion.
Extroversion In the world ofDISC it's you know, are you more
(09:12):
relational or more taskoriented?
So these types of things areembedded in the tool and I would
say the three colors ofworldview, it's really those
deeper cultural drivers.
But the way we designed it isto answer that at the personal
level, so that I get personalinsight in how that works for me
(09:35):
.
And yeah, so I don't know ifthat is a one.
So that's great, and you saidearlier that our drivers have a
strong influence on how we think, speak and act, absolutely yeah
, and for most people it's um,once they get exposed to the
three colors of worldview, thenthey realize how profound and
(09:56):
how deep this stuff is.
Yeah, when you, when you firsttry to explain it to people,
they say, really, I didn't knowthat that layer of my being was
even there.
Yes, I carry a passport, I grewup in a certain place or grew
up in multiple places, but isthere a layer called cultural
(10:17):
drivers?
And once they see the report,they say, oh, now I get it.
Yeah, I see it everywhereeverywhere.
Shelley Reinhart (10:23):
That's been the case for me.
Yes, I see it everywhere and itit has changed the way I see
the world and the way I seemyself.
That that has been very truefor me.
Marco Blankenburgh (10:32):
I can't unsee it we always warn people
about that.
Yeah, yeah, it's.
Shelley Reinhart (10:37):
That has been very true I don't want to go
back.
I don't want to, I don't wantto come back to the pre-3C
Shelley, so to speak.
But yeah, Right.
So now that we've kind of giventhat big overview of what is
the assessment, what are thethree colors?
You know how do they work onthe assessment.
(10:57):
Let's just talk about the threecolors individually.
First of all, why did you nameit the three colors?
Why three colors?
Like what?
What is that?
Marco Blankenburgh (11:09):
yeah, um, a number of reasons.
One is we needed some sort of ametaphor.
So my wife is a photographer,so at home, at home, we're
inundated with the world ofcolor.
So, uh, there is cmyk and ogband now the three colors.
That's the world view frameworkhas three drivers and three
(11:34):
world view drivers.
So when we started to look for ametaphor, we thought that the
idea of connecting color to theframework First of all, culture
is colorful, especially when yougo around the world, but also
the way our three colors ofworldview show up.
There's typically a combinationof all three for most people on
(11:55):
this planet and typically oneof them is maybe more important,
or two, and then a smallerpercentage of the world
population.
All three of them are almostequally important.
So when we started looking atthat, we thought well, the whole
world of color might be a nicemetaphor.
So we connected the rgb colorpalette, so to speak, to the
(12:21):
three colors of worldview.
And and it is a nice metaphor,but, as every metaphor goes,
they always go wrong at onepoint or another.
But then you could.
You know the rgb scheme in inthe world of computers, 16.7
million colors can be createdwith three red, green and blue.
Yes and no.
(12:43):
We don't have 16.7 millioniterations of the three colors
of worldview, but there is a lotof possible combinations.
Yes, so that idea as a metaphoris helpful.
It's colorful, it's complex,it's simple.
You know the language.
It's simple, but it is complexat the same time.
Shelley Reinhart (13:05):
Okay, that's helpful.
I love that.
Yes, so that's the three colorsof worldview.
That's why it's named as it is.
Okay, let's look at eachworldview.
So first of all, explain to mewhat a worldview is.
What is a worldview and whydoes it matter?
Marco Blankenburgh (13:22):
that's a a complicated question.
So in the world of academia, wealways need to quantify that we
are not necessarily talkingabout worldview from a large
picture point of view.
We're talking about culturalworldview drivers.
(13:44):
So it's a slice of the largerpicture of worldview, especially
in the world of anthropologyand sociology and theology, even
where worldview, then, isunpacked in many facets.
We're just zooming in on onefacet and that's how my cultural
journey has shaped the way II'm culturally wired and we
(14:09):
quantify that with those threeworldview drivers that's helpful
.
Shelley Reinhart (14:13):
Okay, cultural worldviews all right.
So that's how I see the worldfrom a cultural perspective.
Marco Blankenburgh (14:21):
Is that how you would say, yeah, yeah yeah,
so it's a, it's a lens throughwhich we see the world, so it
indeed shapes.
So when I wear those glasses,so to speak, it shapes how, how
I think, how I speak and how Iact okay, that's helpful.
Shelley Reinhart (14:38):
All right, let's look at the first one
together.
So, honor and shame, let's lookat.
Let's look that first word.
But can you tell me what ishonor?
Marco Blankenburgh (14:48):
So honor is both external and internal at
the same time.
So it's something you feel.
You feel either honorable.
You feel that you are a personwho is in and of themselves
honorable, or a person who ispart of an honorable community,
(15:11):
or a person who might be able togive honor to my dad, or the
fact that my dad is, my dadallows me to be honorable just
because of the history, etc.
(15:32):
Or it could be a company.
I might have a sense of pridebecause I work for a certain
company or I work for a certainleader in that company or with a
certain leader in that company.
Then it's also external, soit's what others bestow on me.
So the sense of external honoris basically do people reinforce
(15:54):
, endorse the existence of honor?
So is is marco or is shelly?
Are they honorable people?
And then you need to talk topeople who know us and listen to
what they say about us.
So yeah, it's both external andinternal.
And we listen to parents talkto their kids about honor.
(16:19):
It's typically along the linesof you are a child of this
family, or you are a son ordaughter of us, or of a larger
cluster of families or a tribe,or when you start traveling
internationally, you are part ofthis nation.
You need to make us pride proud, you know.
(16:42):
So yeah, it's very hard to say.
You know that honor can bequantified.
There's a lot of externalendorsement, external
affirmation comes with it, butit's also a feeling, it's a
sense of being honorable andit's not always easy to explain.
Shelley Reinhart (17:07):
That's good.
Thank you, that's reallyhelpful.
So how is that linked to shame?
How do they work together?
Marco Blankenburgh (17:17):
Yeah.
So I think examples are alwaysthe easiest to connect with with
.
So, if I remember, I was alittle bit of a rebellious kid
and I would test my teachers inschool.
No way, and I still remember Ihaven't.
(17:38):
I must have been really small,but I I do remember the one day
that the head teacher came toour house and we have we have
sort of a path that gets up tothe front door and uh, I, I
heard him come, I saw him, Iknew exactly why he was there,
(18:01):
and then my mom opened the doorand she immediately felt you
know, oh no, I'm going to hearsomething about one of my sons.
Which was exactly what happenedand that feeling of what has one
of my sons or what have my sonsnow done this time?
(18:24):
Has one of my sons, or whathave my sons now done this time?
And I was eventually called inand I was told that in those
uncertain terms that this wasunacceptable.
And then, of course, later on,my dad was always a bit chill
about this, maybe because he wasmore of a rebel himself.
But my mom was saying, yeah,you know, we as the Blankenberg
(18:47):
family, we don't do things likethat.
But I could see the sense ofshame on my mom's face when she
opened the door when the headteacher came in.
Yes, so it's falling out ofline or doing things that people
(19:07):
frown, you know, and it's likewhat you did, what I was not
expecting that from somebodylike you.
So that sense of where yourhonor is basically diminished
through your, your words,through your actions, and then,
(19:29):
either, shame happens justthinking about it.
So let's say, oh yeah, myfriends invited me to do xyz and
I really want to do it.
But I'm going to say no,because if my parents find out,
if my sibling, my older brother,finds out, or if my grandpa
would know that I had said yesto my friends to do X, y, z, I
(19:54):
would hear about it, you know.
And then it becomes a deterrent, almost.
Yeah.
Shelley Reinhart (20:00):
Yeah, okay, so I see how they're linked.
Marco Blankenburgh (20:21):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So I see how they're linked.
So honor and shame and kind ofthe balance for me culturally,
and avoiding shame isautomatically linked to that.
Then the way I make decisionswho to see, what to do, to say
(20:47):
what not to say, how to share myopinion if I would share my
opinion at all, or just stayquiet or say things like I'm not
sure about that, I don't know,purposefully, because the main
driver is to maintain honor andavoid shame.
So everything I do becomesgoverned by that and in very
practical terms that could meanthat the family decides where I
go to school.
(21:07):
Of course that is a decisionthat either adds honor to me and
the family or potentially addsshame.
Deciding who to marry, where tolive, which company to in the
future work for All thesedecisions become connected to
(21:29):
consideration.
Does it bring more honor orwould it potentially diminish
the amount of honor due us?
Shelley Reinhart (21:36):
So yeah, and when I'm interacting with
someone from this worldview, oreven if I'm not, am I aware that
there's an honor-shameinterchange?
And when I'm speaking, am Iaware that I'm either giving
honor or shame?
In other words, do you knowwhat I'm saying?
Marco Blankenburgh (21:56):
That is the tricky part, because if you, for
instance, are not familiar with, let's say, we're talking about
honor-shame now, if you're notfamiliar with it I was a are not
familiar with.
Let's say, we're talking abouthonor shame now, if you're not
familiar with it.
I was a little bit familiarwith it.
I grew up in a small village inthe netherlands where what the
neighbors think and thereputation of the family was
very important, so I wassomewhat familiar with it.
(22:19):
But moving into the middle eastand doing a lot of work in
africa, marrying into africa, um, I I realized how much I didn't
know at all.
So in my case, I a lot of mymistakes.
It was only sort of by the graceof people actually pulling me
(22:39):
aside or having the courage totalk to me about hey, marco, uh,
how did, how did you feel thatconversation went?
And then, and then they wouldsay I would say, uh, but it was
okay.
And then they would say, well,can I give you some feedback?
When you said this, do yourealize that that caused a very
embarrassing moment for theother person?
(23:01):
And I would say, really, I haveno idea.
Fortunately, having peoplearound me, you know.
Starting to explain it, Irealized, man, there's so much
to learn.
Shelley Reinhart (23:13):
Because they were aware of the honor that was
being exchanged or not and youwere completely unaware.
Perhaps You're like not even.
Marco Blankenburgh (23:26):
We buy those worldview drivers.
You know, ming-jin says thoseare the glasses that color your
world, color your thinking andspeaking and acting.
And by default that's theglasses we wear because that's
how we so far have beensuccessful in life.
And when you then startinteracting with people who are
culturally very different fromyou, then all of a sudden your
(23:51):
default way of operatingactually backfires on you.
Yeah, and it starts sometimeswith simple things, like when I
first met my wife's grandmother.
Etiquette was very importantfor her.
That was an honorable thingthat her family followed
(24:12):
etiquette.
So I totally missed that part.
So I shamed who is now my wifeand uh, her grandma was very
gracious but like, for instance,dessert was put on the table
and I picked up the spoon andstarted eating and everybody was
like grandma needs to sit down.
(24:33):
She picks up the spoon and theneverybody else picks up the
spoon and then and then I addedeven more shame by by picking up
my bowl and finishing the lastremains.
In my case, you know, in theNetherlands that would show that
you really liked the dessert.
Shelley Reinhart (24:52):
Ah, Mark, he and her.
Marco Blankenburgh (24:56):
No, no, and grandma was all flustered.
But there is more, Marco, thereis more.
Shelley Reinhart (25:03):
Oh, she, yeah, but there is more, marco, there
is more, so it's, it's you know, those are fun stories to tell
afterwards and they arerelatively innocent.
Marco Blankenburgh (25:11):
But you can really step into the unknown and
where you just mess things upbadly yeah.
Shelley Reinhart (25:19):
I was talking to Mingjin.
Mingjin Tong is one of ourpractitioners, I see, our
practitioners.
He was saying that because Isaid to him he was raised in
honor, shame, and I said I justcan't imagine interacting with
that sense of of honor versusshame all the time, like when
I'm speaking to you, you knowaware that I'm either giving you
(25:43):
honor or I'm shaming you.
It's just, it's just so much apart of my subconscious.
And he said well, I, I can'timagine interacting with you
that that way, like not havingthat subconscious.
It's so much a part of the wayI think about every interaction
and every conversation.
Marco Blankenburgh (25:59):
And I'm like wow.
Shelley Reinhart (26:02):
It's just, I was with.
Marco Blankenburgh (26:04):
About two months ago, I was with a family
working with their businessconglomerate and we started a
family development program andthere were four generations in
the room.
Shelley Reinhart (26:19):
Wow.
Marco Blankenburgh (26:21):
The old grandfather wanted to be there
because he was very excitedabout this new program and he
wanted to say a few words at thebeginning.
And then the next generationwas there and then two more
generations, so the youngestperson was early 20s and the
oldest person was at least intheir 70s.
And it was fascinating as thewhen the older generation was in
(26:46):
the room, whatever they said,everybody was endorsing it and
respecting it and, you know,even the body language was like
almost like yes, you know, werespect you.
And then they were there justto show their support for the
program, and then they left, andthen, little by little, the
conversation started to change,because they wanted to honor the
(27:11):
older generation while theywere there.
They were not disrespectful, butthey were.
As soon as when they left andwe got further into the program,
they started to talk abouttheir vision for the future and
how some of the ways had tochange.
Uh, but they were very, very uhrespectful in the way they
(27:32):
packaged it, but they were notable to talk about that when the
, the third, fourth, you know,the older generations, were in
the room and it.
It's a classical example of howhonor versus shame then drives
everything that happens in theroom, yes, every conversation,
and everything that's said andeverything that's not said.
Shelley Reinhart (27:54):
Everything said and not said.
Yes, yeah, that's so good,marco.
I love this picture of thisworldview.
I feel like we've fleshed itout very well.
Thank you, that is so helpful.
Marco Blankenburgh (28:07):
Let's look at innocence and guilt next in
the beginning, when we startedto use these tools, we, we
wouldn't explain to people whywe have quite emotive words in
(28:29):
this framework.
So, to present people withwords like shame and guilt and
fear, yeah, it's like whoa, youknow where are you taking them?
Yeah, they're strong words and,um, we, we talked a lot about
well, well, what do we do?
And we really felt that weneeded to keep those strong
emotional words in the frameworkBecause, when it comes to our
(28:52):
cultural worldview drivers,these are very real.
So, for instance, just talkingnow about honor versus shame and
the avoidance or thediminishing impact of shame
becomes a preoccupation almost.
Um, and when, when you talk topeople who have been shamed,
especially if that was done inpublic in an honor shame
(29:13):
environment.
Yeah, that leaves deep, deepscars, you know yes, yes and so
it's real and we wanted tocreate a space where it becomes
safe to talk about these thingsBecause, especially maybe in
families, maybe in schools or inworkplaces, if you don't get a
(29:37):
line thinking about what we dowith these things, then they
start to live their own life.
So we purposefully kept thoseemotion loaded words in there,
with a commitment that ourfacilitators, our coaches, are
gentle, they are culturallearners, they will work really
(29:58):
hard to create a safe space toopen up that conversation.
Shelley Reinhart (30:02):
Oh, that's good.
That's good, marco.
Yes, and I can say that whenour practitioners are trained,
we are trained to be culturallearners and understand with
humility that these are strongwords and there are painful
places that they can go.
Marco Blankenburgh (30:22):
These these words, yeah yeah, so anyway that
as a in between that's a verygood point.
Shelley Reinhart (30:28):
I'm so glad you you pointed that out.
And guilt is another strong,strong thing I want to avoid at
all times.
So yeah, so tell me aboutinnocence, and guilt and and
innocence.
What is innocence and why is itso important?
Marco Blankenburgh (30:46):
Yeah, like with honor.
You know, a state of innocenceis a condition of being, so to
speak.
So that sense that I have doneeverything to the best of my
ability, or I've made goodchoices, or I lived up to the
standard that was set in societyeither by goals or by policies
(31:10):
or by the law or by a higherauthority, and that sense that
you feel good about yourselfbecause you've done what was
required and therefore you know,the idea of right and wrong is
strongly associated withinnocence and guilt.
So by doing the right thing youcreate that sense of innocence.
(31:33):
I feel good about myselfbecause I've done the right
thing.
And the flip side is also truethat if I don't do the right
thing, I do that which is wrong,and sometimes there is external
standards for that.
Sometimes you create your owninternal standards, but that
sense of I messed up, I've donethe wrong thing, I made the
(31:55):
wrong choice, I did not do myutmost, you know the best I
could and I feel a sense ofguilt because of that.
So it's very much driven bystandards or by agreed upon
levels of performance, forinstance.
(32:15):
Or you often hear people talkabout expectations being met or
expectations not being met.
That's a very, very commonlanguage when it comes to
innocence versus guilt.
Shelley Reinhart (32:29):
Okay, and if you had to contrast honor and
innocence, what would you say isthe biggest difference between
the two?
Marco Blankenburgh (32:37):
Honor very much is linked to my community.
So it's how I represent thecommunity, the family, the tribe
, the business or, if I travel,the nation.
A sense of innocence is morelinked to a standard might be
(32:59):
set by my family, by the localsports club that I'm part of, by
the community of faith or thelaw of the country, but it's
meeting that standard orfollowing that standard that
creates that sense of innocenceor guilt.
Well, with Honor Shame, it'svery much about the community.
(33:22):
The consensus of the communitywants me to do X, y, z.
So if I don't, the sense ofguilt is not the first thing I
feel, right, I feel a sense ofshame because I wasn't a good
representative or goodcontributor to my community.
I wasn't a good representativeor good contributor to my
(33:42):
community.
Shelley Reinhart (33:43):
But in regards to innocence guilt, I felt
guilt because I didn't upholdthe standard that was expected
of me.
I didn't follow the rules.
Okay, that's good.
I love the contrast.
Thank you for just contrastingthat for us.
Okay, so it's a good picture ofinnocence guilt.
(34:05):
Can you just give us an exampleof of innocence guilt, how it
plays out like what's an exampleof innocence being, you know, a
standard being broken, and howthat would instigate I I can
tell you about a clash I hadwhere I had forgotten how strong
a driver that was.
Marco Blankenburgh (34:25):
So I've been outside my home country now for
over 30 years.
I've lived in both honor, shameas well as power, fear oriented
cultures and have worked withmany companies and organizations
that have you know that don'thave Innocence Guild as their
main driver.
So I went to the Netherlandsand I was driving a car.
(34:52):
We were picking up friends fromthe railway station in one of
the cities and I told my wife ohit's hard to find parking, just
sit in the car, I'll quicklycheck the platform at the
railway station and I'll pick upour friends and I'll come back.
And by the time I came back thepolice officer was next to the
(35:13):
car.
He got off his motorbike and hepicked up his book and started
writing.
You know, giving us a ticket,oh dear, and I started talking
to, started writing.
You know, giving us a ticket,dear, and I started talking to
him.
Uh, you know, of course, froman honor, shame perspective, you
, although he is representingthe law at the same time, you
can always have a conversationwith somebody, and you can.
(35:36):
You can see what you can doabout it.
And he got offended by me doingthat because, um, I was in the
wrong place.
I parked in the wrong place.
But I told him, but my wife wasin the car and she has a
driving license.
You could have just told her tomove.
And he looked funny at me andsaid what, what do you mean?
I mean you parked in the wrongplace.
You know, you did the wrongthing.
(35:57):
The you did the wrong thing.
Shelley Reinhart (35:59):
This is the wrong.
What are?
Marco Blankenburgh (36:00):
you talking about?
Yeah, and I was totally missingthat.
I was trying to use tacticsthat were offensive to him, you
know.
Shelley Reinhart (36:17):
Yeah, okay, that's a great example.
Yeah, yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (36:20):
Right, so classical.
You know I was pulling morehonor shame tactics on a police
officer who was rigidlyinnocence guilt, upholding the
law, upholding the law.
He was getting frustrated withme.
Shelley Reinhart (36:35):
Mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
Yes, that's OK.
That's a great example.
What about?
I love the one you use aboutstoplights.
Marco Blankenburgh (36:45):
Yeah, so, yeah, that's another one.
So traffic lights are by andlarge across the world, used in
almost every country, and theytypically are used in a similar
fashion.
So green is go, similar fashion.
(37:06):
So, um, green is go, uh, orangeis watch out.
Now in quite a few countriespeople say speed up, uh, and
then red is stop.
Yeah, red is stop.
Um, now, uh, when, when, whensomebody who's more innocence,
guilt, right, wrong oriented,when they stop at a traffic
light and you ask them so whydid you stop?
What was the main driver?
Well, it was red.
So the law says if it's red youstop.
(37:29):
Yes, if somebody is more honoror shame oriented, they might
say something like well, I don'tknow who are in the other cars
on the intersection, don't knowwho are in the other cars on the
intersection, and I don't wantto be seen as a family member of
this and this family to berunning a red light because they
are going to talk about me.
(37:50):
So I will stop when the lightis red.
And if you, if you then askthem so what if there's
absolutely no cars at all,there's nobody there and you're
the only one on the intersectionand the light goes red?
And then there would be some,you know, situational thinking.
In some cases they might stillstop for red.
(38:11):
In other cases they might say,well then, the traffic light is
not useful, so then I mightstill go through it.
And when it comes to power offear, I mean the main motivator
is either knowing that on thatintersection sometimes the
policeman is hidden behind thebushes, so to speak.
Shelley Reinhart (38:30):
Yes.
Marco Blankenburgh (38:32):
And I'm afraid that I might get caught.
Or it's really the fear of anaccident or the fear of damage,
either physical damage ormaterial damage.
So the interesting thing is,all three of those drivers might
be at play in somebody.
Shelley Reinhart (38:50):
Yes.
Marco Blankenburgh (38:51):
And yeah, so the motivation is different.
On the outside, the decisionsor the actions that people take
look very similar you stop for ared light.
Decisions or the actions thatpeople take look very similar
you stop for a red light.
And we had a lot of fun writingfour different articles.
Shelley Reinhart (39:15):
They're on our website on how you can use the
three colors of worldview toalmost predict how somebody is
going to behave on the road.
Marco Blankenburgh (39:19):
Those are good.
Yes, I'm glad you brought thisup.
Yeah, it works it actually.
It's fascinating.
You can predict from a distancevery often how people are going
to behave, and those threecolors of worldview have a huge
impact on the flow of traffic Ilove that, and this is a great
segue into the last worldview,the final world that we're
(39:39):
talking about, which, which ispower and fear.
Shelley Reinhart (39:42):
So I'd really like to spend a little time on
this one, because this is thisis the one that I think possibly
people may wrestle with themost, so I'd love to kind of
talk about power and then fear,and then again, how do they
interact?
Why is this important worldview?
(40:02):
Why do we need to include thisone?
Marco Blankenburgh (40:05):
yeah, um, so let's start with power.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So the word power is a trickyword.
Yeah, people typicallyunderstand fear, but the word
power is often seen in anegative light.
So I guess it's because we justlive in a world with lots of
(40:28):
beauty but also with lots ofnegative experiences, and very
often those negative experiencesare connected to abuse of power
in small and big ways.
So that's why one of the sortof side missions of knowledge
works is to to re-establish ahealthier relationship with the
(40:50):
word power I love.
that's one, yeah.
So it's one of the thechallenges we really face, and
it starts with having, in ourcase, if I'm required to lead,
which is a position of power,then do I know how to do that?
Well, do I know how to do thatin a positive way?
(41:11):
And it's so super important.
And it starts with young kids,and I work predominantly with
adults in the workplace, withleaders in the workplace, and I
meet way too many leaders whoreally have not been equipped
properly to work in a healthyway with power.
(41:31):
So we see power as somethingthat's neutral in and of itself.
We are encouraging and coachingand training people to use
power in a life-giving way.
That's what we're after, and Ioften like to add to it that we
all have examples where peoplehave used power in such a way
(41:52):
that it sucked the life out ofyou.
Yes, and we've seen that in theworkplace.
We see that in families, inneighborhoods, in apartment
blocks, etc.
In the sports clubs, inreligious institutions.
So this whole idea that power isin and of itself, neutral and
(42:12):
that we need to wrestle with,what do I do with positions of
power?
What do I do with situationswhere I'm asked to speak in a
meeting, which is actually aposition of power.
What do I do with?
With situations where I'm askedto speak in a meeting which is
actually a position of power,and the words that come out of
my mouth are going to be eitherlife-giving for the people in
(42:32):
that meeting and for the subject, or they're not, and um, that's
yeah.
That's probably one of thereasons why I love talking about
this, because it's my ownbattle as well.
It's a continuous battle to toreally be life-giving in my
thoughts, in my words, in myactions, but also to work with
people who might not be, whomight actually use power to
(42:55):
create, create fear, to createambiguity, uncertainty, which is
then the other side of theequation.
So, yeah, Difficult one in thisworld.
Shelley Reinhart (43:07):
Yes, it is, and I found that I'll speak.
You know, as an American livingin the United States of America
, I do find that people areuncomfortable with the power
that they have.
If they have it Like, sometimesthey don't want to acknowledge
it, they don't even see thatthey have power.
(43:27):
Ming Jin, our ICI practitioner,said that if you want to
understand power, talk to thepowerless.
Talk to people that have it.
You'll get a better sense ofwhat it looks like.
And that's really been profoundfor me to think about.
(43:52):
But so, with that regard, yeah,I love our stance, and helping
me understand the power I havein certain situations has been
so helpful.
So this world and understandingthis worldview has been just
revolutionary for me, profound.
So why so you think that's whythis worldview is important?
I mean you could have just saidokay, innocence, guilt, honor,
(44:15):
shame two crucial worldviews.
We'll stick with those two.
Why add power?
Fear?
And can you just explain thethinking behind it and why you
think it's crucial?
I mean, I think I know, but Iwant to hear what you think.
Marco Blankenburgh (44:30):
Yeah, no, no .
It's crucial to yeah because,first of all, when power is not
either used in a positive way,very often those become the hero
stories of society.
So, and then when power is usedin a negative way, those stories
(44:51):
might also get told, but theyget told more as warnings might
also get told, but they get toldmore as warnings.
And many societies have ebbedand flowed either between the
three colors of worldview.
So if you look at human historyacross the continents and
across the empires, you will seethat even just, let's say, look
(45:13):
at the Roman Empire.
So there was a phase in theRoman Empire where innocence,
guilt, was super important.
Roman culture in those days,honor, was very important.
It was embedded into the waythe military was run.
But there was also a strongsense of innocence, guilt.
But then, as the Roman Empiresort of started to disintegrate,
(45:34):
that's where power starts to bemore and more abused and where
fear slipped into the system.
Then you got the split betweenthe East and Roman Empire, etc.
I'm not a historian but I liketo bring tools like the Three
Colors of Worldview to historyand I love reading about history
(45:54):
.
And you can see it in majorshifts in in societies around
the world that what they do withpower is is so significant.
Uh, you saw it, for instance,with the reformation in europe,
with, uh, the church reformation, the likes likes of Luther and
(46:14):
Calvin, etc.
That was a major shift, goingagainst the unhealthy use of
power by the church and thenbringing people back to what is
right and what is wrong, andencouraging people to find out
for themselves what is right andwrong.
So I love that third worldviewdriver because it explains a lot
(46:40):
of what we experience in in theworld today so so some
societies have recently driftedmore into a way of functioning
and very often that's driven byeither military might or it's
driven by certain leaders cominginto power and, uh yeah, it
(47:02):
just sheds light on so manydilemmas that the world is faced
with at the moment that honorthat the other two worldviews
don't.
Shelley Reinhart (47:11):
They don't.
They can explain in the sameway that power fear does exactly
, yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (47:17):
and then when you think back at heroes
like martha and luther king jr,for him, his thinking about
power and how, uh, his um, youknow non-violent movement was
really about using power in a ina non-violent way, and he talks
a lot about the tension betweenpower and love.
For instance, power without loveactually becomes destructive,
(47:43):
but love without power isactually he calls it anemic.
It doesn't have the impact thatit should have in the world.
So, understanding power andunderstanding what to do with it
, how to use it in a healthy way, how to detect when it's used
in an unhealthy way, andactually being able to be a
(48:06):
force for change if that happens, or at least knowing when you
can be and when you might not beable to be so, yeah, yeah, I
think it's essential that thatthird dimension is there,
because many, many organizationswe work with, power is a major
issue.
It's really what to do with itand how to create a healthy
(48:32):
relationship with power acrossthe layers of an organization,
with direct reports, etc.
But also how to use power in ahealthy way with the world
around us.
It's a significant issue whenwe look at our relationship with
the planet, for instance.
Yeah, there's a major challengewith countries where that form
(48:57):
of abuse of power is nowbecoming a big no-no.
And there's other countrieswhere it's still perfectly OK.
Yes we are, we're in controland we can do with our resources
whatever we want.
And that's another way whereyou can look at our fear, as
that third dimension in threecolors of worldview where it's
(49:18):
really helpful to understand whycertain things are happening in
society.
Shelley Reinhart (49:22):
What about one of the differences between
power, fear and honor?
Shame, well, and innocence,guilt as well, perhaps is the
allegiance to a leader.
Can you kind of talk about thata little bit?
Marco Blankenburgh (49:37):
yeah, it's tricky because as soon as I talk
about that, multiple examplesin the world of politics come to
mind.
Shelley Reinhart (49:45):
That's true but you can let the listeners
make those connections we won'tyeah connections.
We won't say anything.
Marco Blankenburgh (49:53):
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, it's so right, shelley
, it's.
If you vote or pledge allegianceto a leader, that automatically
means that if I want to stay infavor with that leader, I have
to be loyal, I have to showcompliance, have to be loyal, I
(50:20):
have to show compliance, andsometimes that means that I have
to make really hard choices,especially if that leader then
starts to do things that I amsurprised by or that I initially
thought he or she would neverdo.
Yes, exactly, but then in manycases, if power fear is a strong
driver in that context, peoplewill still continue down the
(50:42):
compliance route, especially ifthen, on top of that, the leader
uses power to create fear andto create ambiguity or to use
random punishment, for instance,to keep people in line, and
then it becomes tricky, and Ihave a lot of empathy for people
(51:05):
who get caught in thosesituations.
It doesn't justify what they do, but I fully understand how
enslaving almost that type of asituation can be, and you have
the other side as well.
So our leaders really use powerin a beautiful way and they are
really the protector andnurturer of their people, and
(51:31):
then it's easy to be loyal andit's easy to show that you're
willing to go the extra mile,and I've seen people say I don't
want to leave this organizationbecause I don't want to work
for any other boss.
Yes it's an empowering form ofleadership, and people then say
(51:59):
I don't care about the hierarchybecause I feel protected, I
feel valued and what we're doingis important.
So yeah, you can have thepositive side and the negative
side right and then in power,fear.
Shelley Reinhart (52:12):
My allegiance is to a leader and if that, if
the power changes, then I couldbe.
My allegiance could be tosomeone new, but in honor right,
it flips very quickly yeah, itflips right.
Yeah, okay, so that's I justyeah.
I think that's an interestingpoint, oh yeah, so power, fear,
power, fear.
Marco Blankenburgh (52:32):
Allegiance is, um, it's very much linked to
who is the rising star, who isthe falling star.
Yes, right, so with honor,shame, that's not the case.
Your allegiance is much morelong-term, much more long-term,
okay, yeah.
Shelley Reinhart (52:52):
Oh, thank you Marco.
This is so interesting.
I mean we could talk about thisfor hours because the
implications are everywhere andit affects.
It affects all of all of life.
I mean, I watch the news and Ijust I see it everywhere.
Now, I wish I was.
I often wish you know diplomacy101.
(53:12):
You know, I wish allpoliticians were taught the
worldviews, because it justmakes so much more sense when
you see news through this,through these lenses.
Oh, that's why they're doingthat.
That makes sense.
If this interests you, if you'dlike to learn more about your
personal cultural worldviewdrivers, come on over to
(53:32):
interculturalagilitycom.
It's our website and you canlearn more about the three
colors of worldview assessment.
You can take the assessment andmeet with an intercultural
intelligence practitioner whowill walk you through that
assessment and help youunderstand, kind of, how those
cultural worldview drivers makeyou tick and how they've shaped
(53:54):
you.
So it's just an excitingjourney to understand how
culture has shaped you.
So check it out,interculturalagilitycom.
Marco Blankenburgh (54:08):
Thank you so much for joining us for this
episode of the Cultural AgilityPodcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,share it with someone.
The best way to help us out isby leaving a review on your
favorite podcast app or channel,or forward and recommend this
podcast to people around you.
As always, if any of the topicswe discussed today intrigue you
(54:30):
, you will find links toarticles discussing them in
greater depth in the podcastnotes.
If you would like to learn moreabout intercultural
intelligence and how you canbecome more culturally agile,
you can find more informationand hundreds of articles at
knowledgeworkscom.
A special thanks to JasonCarter for composing the music
(54:52):
on this podcast and to the wholeknowledgeworks team for making
this podcast a success.
Thank you, nita rodriguez, araaziz bakian, rajitha raj, and
thanks to vip and george foraudio this podcast.
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