April 3, 2024 • 41 mins
In a world that's rapidly shrinking due to globalization, the role of human resources (HR) is evolving just as quickly. Erika, a seasoned HR professional, sat down with Marco Blankenburgh to share her remarkable journey from Pennsylvania to becoming a global HR expert. Her story is not just one of personal growth but also a lesson on the critical importance of intercultural agility within the HR space.
This episode is a trove of insights for anyone seeking to understand the profound impact of cultural awareness on personal growth and corporate culture.
Navigating the multifaceted realm of human resources, Erika's experiences shed light on the subtle yet crucial influence of cultural agility in HR practices. Together we uncover the ways normal Western-centric HR frameworks require a revamp to accommodate a more globally diverse workforce. Erika's stories and our exploration of personality assessment tools like DiSC highlight how strategic culture-building can revolutionize team dynamics and retention.
The podcast episode delves into the nuances of intercultural agility, challenging listeners to reconsider how they approach HR and team management.
Leaders take note: our enlightening exchange stresses the urgency for intercultural competence, especially when steering teams through turbulence and transformation. Erika sheds light on building trust within diverse groups and the pivotal role of empathetic leadership in nurturing a resilient and inclusive environment. For those ready to expand their horizons, this conversation with Erika and her team beckons, offering a pathway to growth and cultural competency in today's interconnected corporate sphere.
Learn more about Erika's work at: gohihr.com
In this episode, you will learn:
-- How to use intercultural agility to build resilient HR systems with Intercultural Agility at their core
-- How strategic culture-building can revolutionize team dynamics and retention.
-- Building trust within diverse groups and the pivotal role of empathetic leadership in nurturing a resilient and inclusive environment
| Learn More about:
-- The Secret to Culture Change in Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging.
-- Unity in Diversity in Your Organization
-- The Key to Unlock Success in Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Initiatives
-- Looking for a book to take your cultural agility to the next step, check out the Ultimate Intercultural Question Book brought to you by KnowledgeWorkx.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erika Butler (00:00):
If it's not a healthy culture.
You're spending a fortune whenyou don't need to, so your
revenue is not going up andyou're bottom.
So the cost I just want to.
People think HR is soft.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:09):
It's not, not at all no.
Erika Butler (00:11):
People say I get into HR because I like people.
That's not the reason you canbe in HR and like people.
But there's a lot of hard factsthat drive what we do.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:34):
Welcome to the Cultural Agility Podcast,
where we explore the stories ofsome of the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world to help you
become culturally agile andsucceed in today's culturally
complex world.
I'm your host, marco Blankenberg, international Director of
KnowledgeWorks.
I'm your host, marcoBlankenberg, international
Director of KnowledgeWorks,where every day, we help
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world.
Wow, it's great to have youlive in in our office here at
(01:07):
KnowledgeWorks.
Thank you so much, erika, forjoining us on this podcast, and
we've had the privilege to worktogether virtually and, in this
crazy world that we live in,this is the first time we meet
in person, so thank you formaking the time to come on this
podcast and we meet in person.
So thank you for making thetime to come on this podcast and
(01:27):
, as always in our episodes, weof course talk about all things
intercultural from differentangles and, because of your
extensive experience in HR, wewanted to zoom in today on hey,
how is intercultural agilitymaking a difference in the world
of HR?
And?
But before we go there, tell usa little bit about yourself.
Erika Butler (01:49):
Thank you, marco.
Well, I'm thrilled to be hereat the KnowledgeWorks office.
It's such a treat to meet someof the team members I've been
working with for, I think, overtwo years now, as well as you.
So about me?
I am from the United States ofAmerica.
My family has been abroad, inEurope, for the last three years
.
I am the wife of Travis, 15years married, and I have two
(02:12):
kids, a mom of Cody, who's 11,and a mom of Rylan, who's six.
My faith is super important tome and I also have a true joy
and love for the field of humanresources and business, and I've
been doing that for about 15years after I graduated with my
master's and bachelor's at PennState University in HR
(02:32):
management.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:33):
Fantastic.
Well, thank you for tellingyour story on this podcast.
So growing up in the US,graduating in the US, but then
also we'll hear a little bitmore about your adventures in
other countries.
When you think back of youryouth, what would be some of the
first moments where culturaldifference or difference in
(02:57):
general came on your path?
Erika Butler (03:01):
Sure, Well now, from what I know now, I think I
was a very late bloomer in thisworld of cultural agility and
intelligence because I lived inan area in Pennsylvania that
there was very little diversity,and I didn't even realize that
until I went to Penn StateUniversity and Penn State did a
(03:22):
fantastic job of really openingour eyes to to the diversity of
the world.
There were students there fromall over the world and they had
courses and actually just asfreshmen we had to attend these
sessions to talk about it andthat was when I said, wow, I had
no idea, I was really.
That was the first thing thatopened my eyes actually right.
Marco Blankenburgh (03:43):
So as a student, yes, um, and from there
, how?
How did you end up movinginternationally?
Erika Butler (03:52):
uh, tell us a little bit more about that part
uh, I love, uh, the way youinteract, your, your facial
expressions, because a lot ofpeople, good friends in the us,
also say, wow, why did you leave, why did you move?
And uh, I lived in the US alsosay, wow, why did you leave, why
did you move?
And I lived in the same areafor about 10 years, married, had
homes right by our parents, soit does seem like a kind of a
crazy move.
However, another big thing forme was at Penn State.
(04:15):
I studied abroad in Australiaas a senior and I was blown away
because I was in theinternational ward.
So I didn't just meet peoplefrom Australia, I met, I made
friends all over the world and Iknew I loved that and I felt
like I really grew in my faithbut in my, in my studies, I just
was exponential time of growth.
So when I came back I said Iwould be open to going abroad
(04:37):
again.
Marco Blankenburgh (04:38):
You say an exponential time of growth.
So if you would compare youbefore you went to australia and
then, coming back reflecting onyourself, what changed?
Erika Butler (04:50):
I might get emotional.
I I you know this people outthere, I'm a high eye.
So because it was that muchhelp, that much meant to me,
that much, okay, um well, Ithink for one, the world became
a lot less scary.
I left penn left Pennsylvania inmy cocoon of family and friends
and I didn't know a single soulin Australia.
I didn't know one person and Igot on a plane for 30 hours by
(05:14):
myself and I was like 20, 21.
And the fact that I could dothat and I did it I just became
much more confident of what Icould do in the world.
And then the warm welcome Ireceived and how the people
around the world I met thatbecame my dear friends so
different than me, but the waythey live their life was also
fascinating and great and I wasshocked by that.
I guess I think I was morescared of the rest of the world
(05:36):
and I realized no, there's a lotmore out there.
There's a lot of awesome peoplethat I could meet and grow from
and learn just from thefriendship.
Yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (05:44):
Yeah.
Erika Butler (05:45):
So those are a few of so much more.
Marco Blankenburgh (05:47):
Now a lot of people who experience that it
becomes a little bit contagious,almost.
Yes, Some people have said it'sactually a little drug.
Yeah.
It's like meeting and exploringand getting to know the world
and meeting other people, theirlives.
So where did it take you fromthere?
Erika Butler (06:07):
Oh yeah, I didn't prepare for this part, but I'll
tell you.
Well, I realized I have workednow and lived in five continents
and I've been to six continents.
Not yet Alaska, not Alaska.
Antarctica that's on my listone day maybe.
But so I guess you're right,you open that door a bit and see
what's possible.
(06:27):
And me and my husband I don'tknow, we're not saying we'll
never go back to the US, but Ithink we will be global citizens
our whole life.
We can never close that doornow that it's open, because we
found such love and such joy andpassion and growth for
ourselves and our children.
Marco Blankenburgh (06:43):
Fantastic and professionally, you've been
in the world of HR for quitesome time.
Currently, you actually talkabout that.
You founded your own business,but there was a professional
career even before that right,so tell a little bit more about
that.
Erika Butler (07:02):
Sure.
So after graduating Penn StateI worked for a few organizations
.
Mostly my time was in Fortune500 organizations.
So in that pace and that youlearn a lot in the US, I
finished my full time working incorporate America with Thermal
Fisher Scientific, which I wasat about six years, and that
also showed me how much I loveworking internationally, Cause I
(07:24):
got to do some internationaltrips for international teams.
So we'd made a decision as afamily for both of us traveling
and working with internationalteams.
We couldn't do that and havelittle children for us.
For us.
And we decided that I wouldstart a company for human
resource consulting and the nameis higher international human
resources.
I didn't have internationalclients, I didn't know if I ever
(07:46):
would, but it had to be thatname because I knew I loved
working internationally.
So, five years later, here weare in Dubai.
Marco Blankenburgh (07:54):
Well, I'm glad we got connected because it
was a lot of synergy from themoment we first met, I guess.
So the world of HR is, you know, if you look at the books that
have been published on HR,typically most of them come from
the Western world.
Some of them are actually hereon the shelves, and I meet a lot
(08:18):
of HR professionals yourself aswell, of course, and a lot of
their theoretical knowledge istypically sort of from a western
perspective.
So you got to know knowledgeworks, got to know what we do.
A few years back now, whatattracted you as an hr
(08:39):
professional, as a human being,maybe even as well, to the
intercultural approach that wehave at Knowledge Works, and
were you even convincedinitially that you needed it?
Erika Butler (08:51):
Sure.
So I have an amazing clientthat I work with three or four
years now and they have anamazing board member and he is
the one who connected me to you.
He saw he really in whether youcall it people in culture,
human resources, call it whatyou want but the work, this body
work, he really believes in it.
And he said we do leadershiptraining, we do a lot of
(09:14):
trainings and development.
He's like I need to connect you.
My daughter works at KnowledgeWorks.
I need to connect you.
And my answer to him I'm like,okay, sure, sure, I'll meet with
this group.
But I said I, I I'm a diversityinclusion trainer, I know
culture, I know this and that.
So I kind of, even honestly, Itold you this pooted a bit, but
(09:36):
I'm like, oh, I love Bill, he'san amazing guy, I trust him.
So I, I connect with you and Iwe have our first meeting and my
mind was blown.
I'm like, oh my gosh, diversity, inclusion Wonderful, wonderful
, wonderful.
But this is so much deeper.
You helped me put names to thethree worldviews, the 12
dimensions.
I didn't even know that existedand I really realized how much
I didn't know.
(09:56):
And I'm working with thesepeople around the world and I
didn't even know these weretheir values Right.
So it's been life-changing forme.
Marco Blankenburgh (10:02):
It really has working with you guys the
last two years.
It's exciting yeah, yeah yeah,and every time we speak you have
more stories to tell.
So, yeah, yeah, so, um, knowingthat the world of hr, it is
full of western oriented ways ofthinking, on books on
performance management andleadership and doing appraisals
(10:24):
and building policies andprocedures and employee
handbooks, and you name it um,how does for you, how does
knowing what you know now, usingthe, the ici framework, using
tools like perception management, the three colors of worldview,
the 12 dimensions, how doesthat shift the way you go about
(10:46):
your HR consulting, advisorywork, training, people
development?
Erika Butler (10:54):
I think what's been so eye-opening for me is I
thought I knew a lot of this andI think a lot of leaders I've
worked with wonderful leadersthat I respect, we think we know
, but I would never create athird culture space.
I wouldn't.
If I was doing, I made a lot ofmistakes.
Now I see I made a lot ofmistakes and that I wouldn't
make those same mistakes now.
I didn't create a space thatbecause it's not even working in
(11:17):
the US without all these othercountries.
There's a lot of differentcultures and you need to be
aware of this, right?
So I guess, from a perspectiveof creating, one of our mottos
is bring your best self to work,create environments where
people bring your best self.
But with that, me notunderstanding this, how could I
create that environment?
Because I didn't even know someof these values even existed.
(11:38):
I only came my own IG my owninnocence, guilt that's all
existed right.
Marco Blankenburgh (11:44):
I only came my own ig, my own innocence,
guilt, that's all.
Yeah, that was that's what forthose of us who, uh, who might
be listening to a first podcastof in this series um, so you,
you started to use languagearound the three colors yes, yes
you, uh, so, uh, maybe justbriefly.
um so, three colors of worldvieware three cultural drivers.
It's one of our typical, one ofthe earlier tools that we
(12:05):
introduce people to.
So some folks in the world aremore right, wrong, innocence,
guilt oriented, and that is themain way they make decisions,
the way they communicate andthink through dilemmas.
Erika Butler (12:17):
Family relationships.
Marco Blankenburgh (12:19):
Also, it affects everything.
Yeah, Other people are morehonor driven, trying to avoid
shameful situations.
And then a third category ispeople that might be more
hierarchical in their approach,where position, power might be
more important and how to useyour power in either a positive
(12:40):
way or sometimes it's used in anegative way as well.
So those three drivers thecontinuously at play, and it's
one of the really importantthings, I think, especially when
you start to look at the worldof HR and looking at at people
development.
I was.
I was with a team last week andone of the ladies said, yeah, I
(13:03):
don't understand why my teamdoesn't do brainstorming very
well.
And I asked her you know, tellme a little bit more about your
team.
And it was obvious that theteam was super diverse
culturally and all three ofthese drivers were present in
her team.
Some people were much morehierarchical.
They would defer to the higherauthority when a question was
(13:24):
asked.
Other people were more honordriven, so they would listen to
the people in the room and theywould not position radical ideas
very easily.
They would be very cautious,and other people would be more
innocence, guilt oriented, andthey just say what's on their
mind, you know, and just put itout there, and she was.
I explained it to her and shesays oh, that's why
(13:47):
brainstorming is so difficultwith a culturally diverse group.
So when you think about theworld of hr, what are some of
these practices, with thesedisciplines that come to mind
where intercultural agility isreally important?
Sure?
Erika Butler (14:02):
well, I have several I would love to discuss,
but I think, just going off ofyour example, what a difference
would it be now that she knowsthis?
We structure how we do meetingsat this organization and we say
these are the five rules.
We all follow the guidelinesand we go through.
What does this mean for honor?
Shame.
What does this mean?
And then here you go.
(14:22):
And this is gonna.
This is gonna transform the waymeetings are done, and much
more so.
That's just a really tangibleexample of leaders having a
strategy, knowing this andthat's gonna be a game changer
for that organization just bydoing that yeah simple but
effective and and it can avoid awhole lot of challenges.
Yeah, imagine the ideas theygoing to get out of that meeting
(14:44):
now going forward if they didthat.
Marco Blankenburgh (14:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
Erika Butler (14:47):
So there's a few that come to mind Because I just
touched on it.
I'll share.
But obviously, as an HRprofessional say, I'm new to a
team.
I want to come and assess theculture and you do that a lot of
ways and we're very data-driven.
What is turnover huge cost arewe?
Do we have open positions?
One team I worked with had ninemonths open sales position in
(15:09):
open territory.
Do you know how that impactsthe revenue coming in?
A lot?
You don't.
It's covered.
So what covered?
I want someone there yeah, butlike.
You assess all of this and yourealize, okay, this is a healthy
culture or it's not.
And then what are we going todo about it?
Focus group surveys, you gatherthat.
And then, if it's not a healthyculture, you're spending a
fortune when you don't need to.
(15:30):
So your, your revenue is notgoing up and your bottom, so the
cost.
I just want to.
People think HR is soft.
It's not at all no people say Iget into HR because I like
people, that that's not thereason you can be in HR and like
people.
But there's a lot of hard factsthat drive what we do.
So the culture piece If youcan't have a place where people
(15:50):
feel they can bring their bestself to work, they cannot thrive
, they cannot perform at theirbest and they're not going to
attract the best talent.
I can give you so many reasonsto back that up.
So that is number one why it'simportant.
If you have a cultural diverseteam or work globally, you gotta
get this right yeah you gottaget it right now.
Marco Blankenburgh (16:08):
I just want to throw this in, because one
thing that that I have seen oncepeople discover the culture
piece, or the puzzle piece thatthey've missed, um, they
typically still get stuck inthis idea.
Oh, which nationalities do Ihave on my team?
I have a Korean and a Brazilianand an American and a German,
etc.
And now I need them to worktogether.
(16:33):
How is what KnowledgeWorks doesfor you?
How is that different?
Because we, from the beginning,beginning walked away from this
idea of painting nationalcultural broad brush strokes as
a base.
We use the personal culture asa base.
How, how can, does that makesense for you?
(16:56):
How do you apply that?
Erika Butler (16:57):
so much it makes sense.
It's the power of the one, theindividual, recognizing that,
yes, this might be underlyingvalues, but one of my team
members did this and she did thereport and she fell in two of
the three categories.
And this happens just becauseyou live somewhere doesn't mean
you, there's not outsideinfluences of your values.
So don't assume just becausethey're from us, china, wherever
(17:18):
, and the personality set piece,you have the values, but like
we love disc right.
Uh, there's layers on like thevalues, but there's layers on
that.
You cannot just come in andmake these assumptions.
Marco Blankenburgh (17:29):
That will not work yeah you need to know
your team so really getting toknow people at a personal level,
both from a psychological pointof view as well as from a
cultural point of view, iscrucial.
You mentioned a few timesalready the idea of a third
cultural space oh yes that sortof lingo that we use, and it
points to this idea of culturecreation.
(17:50):
So even the example ofbrainstorming how do we create a
meeting culture where we have,you said, a few rules, where our
meetings have become better,where people feel comfortable
and safe, sharing in ways thatare acceptable to them, which is
a way of creating culture,right?
So how?
(18:12):
You mentioned leadership, howdo you bring a group of leaders
together?
How do you create culturebetween leaders and why is it
important in the first place?
Erika Butler (18:21):
So, for me, what I found work, just speaking from
my personal experience as wellas my studies and research I
really think it has to be thedata.
Marco Blankenburgh (18:32):
Okay.
Erika Butler (18:33):
I I the only way I've done this with a group of
you know the senior leaders ofan organization, and when you
show the data and you say thisis why the team's leaving, this
is what like.
If you can bring them that andyou can paint the story and they
get it, they're going to bemore willing to listen.
And also, I found another keythat's been game changer for me.
You always have maybe that oneor two challenging leader that
(18:55):
might not get it or be on board,say it's marketing.
Well then I'm going to partnerwith that person, be the best
darn marketing supporter that Ican possibly be.
Show them I got your back, I'llalways have your back.
And then guess what, when thatleadership team's on board, you
know it yourself they just theycan run together.
So the data being good partnersto them, relationally strong
trust you talked about that withShelly on one of your last
(19:17):
podcasts trust, and then I thinkthe team can be unstoppable to
make this happen.
But you have to train them too,right you need to equip them.
You need to equip them too.
Marco Blankenburgh (19:27):
Yeah, and culture creation is.
You know, it's one thing.
If people all carry the samepassport, which is, if they come
from all over the world into anorganization that in and of
itself has a culture, then youreally need to have
intentionality about it.
And I love what you mentionedearlier.
That data is important.
Data about you know, what's theimpact of our current culture
(19:53):
on the organization and whatdoes that result in in terms of
what's working, what's notworking?
But then also, adding thatself-discovery piece, and I was
with a group of senior leaderslast week and sometimes I think,
well, these people have been incareers 15, 20 years.
(20:13):
Why are we going?
You know, sometimes I'm evenscared to take them back to
basics, but then when you do,it's like you know, this beauty
start, you know, it's likepainting, almost, you know, and
people really appreciate thatself-discovery and deeper
awareness because from that theycan actually move forward.
Erika Butler (20:33):
Yes, they can make a difference the first time I
learned about disc I was atthermal fisher and they brought
in this amazing training.
They trained all the leaders ondisc and it just was so
shocking to me because I'm ahigh I and obviously that
there's conflict with some othergroups and I never understood
that.
I did like the assumptionsabout me that people may could
hurt me and as well as myassumptions hurt maybe them.
(20:55):
But to get the this piece, itwas so healing for me as a
person to walk forward in thatwith much deeper understanding.
Marco Blankenburgh (21:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, starting there, and then
from there also, you actuallygenuinely can appreciate what
other people bring to the tablethat you don't have and leave
space for it.
Erika Butler (21:13):
Yeah, and also, who am I meeting with?
Okay, there is c.
Okay, so I need to bring my dataagain even more the data yeah
speaking of data, I'd love toshare one specific example that
I think will really paint um thepicture, because I think we
learn through story.
As humans, we learn throughstory right, absolutely um.
So this actually happened atthermal fisher and I got to join
a group, um, as the hr head, orwhatever you want to call it,
(21:36):
and I uh, but in six months to ayear it was a phenomenal
leadership team.
We work great together.
But in six months to a year, wedropped turnover together from
14% to 7%.
We had our internal promotionsgo and I remember this because
you'll see the flip-flop 25% to52%.
So that means people weregetting promoted internally
(21:57):
instead of hiring outside.
We love hiring outside, butisn't that amazing?
People had a better pathforward because they were
getting developed.
We had 100% job offers, exceptit wow when there was a job
opening for a long time before.
Do you know, I'm saying, oh,one year.
Oh, the other cool thing in oneyear, not one of the new people
left the first year all thesethings because we focused on
(22:18):
culture and we rallied aroundthe culture.
That is how powerful it is.
Do you know the cost savings ofthat turnover?
So I just have to share thatlike it really does work.
This is not pie in the skystuff here yeah, yeah, oh,
fantastic, yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (22:31):
So when you think about the world of hr,
what would be other?
I mean, we could talk aboutmany application areas, but what
comes to mind for you that youthink is important?
Erika Butler (22:40):
so we have now for five years done full day
leadership trainings withorganizations.
We got to actually go back toThermoFish and do that.
That was fun, and otherorganizations as well, and we
have one whole segment.
We have five segments and wehave one whole segment on change
management for leaders.
Because if you're going to tripand fall and struggle and be in
this chaos cycle yourself whichhappens for leaders it's nice
(23:03):
to know what to call it, it'snice to expect.
As a human, I'm going to begoing through these emotions,
but how do I lead from thatplace and I think you're talking
about all these globalorganizations If you're leading
in that?
How can you lead well in achaos season If you don't
understand the values of theteam, their core family values,
(23:25):
not just.
Oh, I value integrity Great, metoo, core.
And I think it's like okay whenwe communicate this message.
What does honor shame need tohear?
What does power fear need tohear?
That strategy?
It's a big miss.
This happens all the time.
You see, I know you do, I knowyou could give a zillion
examples.
That's huge.
I think that's a huge way touse this tool.
Marco Blankenburgh (23:44):
Yeah, and to your point.
Actually, one of ourpractitioners is currently on
that topic, doing a PhD, lookingat exactly that.
If you come from a morehierarchical background, more
power-driven background, how ischange actually working for you
and how do you, as a leader,come alongside people?
What does it look like ifyou're more honor, shame driven,
(24:07):
or more innocence, guilt driven?
And it's fascinating, even inthe world of change, if you look
at the theory of change, thosethree things convincing people
through reason, uh, invitingthem to a higher purpose, like,
like glory to be gained you knowyou're going to be the savior,
(24:29):
the hero of what?
the future will look like, orforcing people and just saying
I'm in charge here, this is,we're going to do this from now
on.
Just get you know, get on withit.
Those three are actuallyclassically the cocktail of
change management and it's likeyou said.
It's just incredibly powerfulto bring a tool like the Three
Colors of Worldview alongsideand you can instantly see how
(24:52):
you misfire in the changemanagement approach you use.
Erika Butler (24:56):
You think even about like an innocence, guilt,
culture.
Ambiguity is hard for somebecause of personality, easy for
some, but there's creativity init, there's almost fun in it to
some extent.
But you think of power, of fear, and ambiguity becomes what do
we do?
The leader's not telling uswhat to do and I want to know
what my leader tells me.
So I do my job.
Well, bravo to them.
(25:18):
Right, but even that, evencommon things of change is going
to hit differently.
Marco Blankenburgh (25:23):
Yeah, yeah, even common things of change is
going to hit differently, yeah,and if you?
Erika Butler (25:31):
look at how change is changing.
It's constant.
The only thing about change isit's constant, or what is it?
There's a saying.
Do you know what I'm trying tosay here?
What's the saying?
Marco Blankenburgh (25:37):
Yeah, the only constant in the world is
change.
Erika Butler (25:41):
Which is so ironic .
Marco Blankenburgh (25:42):
Yeah, and it's not that.
Oh, oh, we've handled it.
So now there's calmer waters.
The moments, those moments withcalmer waters, are less and
less, and they're shorter aswell now here's ai, now here's
this.
Erika Butler (25:55):
Like you turn around and some whoa, what the
heck is this?
Yes, we're all living thistogether.
Marco Blankenburgh (26:00):
It's rapid yeah, absolutely yeah.
That's a great area.
We could talk a lot about that,and and what I also find, I
think and you, you probably haveseen the same is that the
ability to successfully gothrough change increases
significantly if you have astrong culture to begin with
(26:21):
trust.
Yeah, yeah, yeah with Trust,trust, yeah.
So strong levels of trust Ifyou go through rough waters, if
you have a good team that knowswhat to expect from one another.
We always talk about, you know,can I anticipate your behavior,
do I correctly interpret it anddo I adjust my part in the game
wherever necessary?
(26:41):
So strong cultures do thatsuper well.
And in change, you have to dothat all the time, yeah.
Erika Butler (26:48):
It is brilliant what you just said, because one
of the parts of our training iswe always, in this part of the
day, do a focus group, the waywe're very like our values, our
results, quality and trust, andwe're very big on results
because so I don't want to justtrain a team for a day.
So what, what, what, what's theinvestment?
One of them is accuratefeedback.
(27:09):
What are the leaders saying?
What is the mess?
And then this change part fearalways comes out.
Yeah.
Fear.
I'm not going to know.
The new system.
I like it this way.
Well, how can I let them?
They're scared because theydon't have good communication.
Maybe they don't have the path,Maybe the training hasn't been
set up yet.
That's what it is.
So the fact that you're alreadydoing that, Marco wow, what it
(27:29):
would look like if we providethis before the change is
announced.
So they know they have support.
Yes, it's hard, but you'regoing to be supported.
We're going to see you throughthis.
We're going to do it together.
Marco Blankenburgh (27:39):
Yeah, it's powerful.
Erika Butler (27:40):
Game changer.
Marco Blankenburgh (27:41):
Absolutely yeah.
What are maybe some other areasthat you see in HR?
Erika Butler (27:47):
So we did touch on it a bit, but I do think if
there is a lack of leaders beingequipped of even how to do this
, or that it even exists, again,right, they might have the
diversity, inclusion, training,but there's so much more depth
to go to understand their team,and I think it's really
important for organizations.
It's top down, it just is.
(28:08):
Even in the US it is.
If the leaders do not graspthis or care about it and, by
the way, you said a comment, noteveryone does care.
That's true.
There's people out there.
Oh, I like it my way.
Fine.
Who are we hiring to lead thisteam?
Are we hiring somebody who isgoing to care about our
different people and culturesand the individuals that make
this up?
So I think, if we have nostrategy on how we're training
(28:31):
our leaders and what is theaccountability, by the way, what
is the accountability?
That is what's going to carryus the leaders leading well and
understanding this and reallygrasping it and sharing it with
their teams.
Marco Blankenburgh (28:42):
Yeah, if we don't have that, it's sort of
counterintuitive, becauseleaders are dealing themselves
with so much change.
And there's so many balls thatthey have to keep in the air.
If then, at the same time, theyhave to carve out time to
develop themselves, to become,you know, satya Nadella of
Microsoft says we have to becomemore human, humans.
(29:02):
Yeah that's true, and thattakes time.
It does, and if you'reinundated, it's really takes a
lot of discipline and courageand doing it together.
That's the other thing that'ssuper important.
Erika Butler (29:14):
But you're right and this is why the time piece,
this is why it gets missed somuch.
I think this is why we haveteams that have leaders.
For 20 years they never hadleadership training wow and now
I'm talking more small tomid-sized businesses, because,
as a as a hr consulting piece,we wrap around them, as you know
.
So I got to do more of that now, which I really enjoy, um, but
(29:35):
you're right, you're competingfor priorities.
So how do you convince theexecutives, whoever it is, that
this actually will tricklethrough your whole organization?
There's's a huge cost benefit.
You know what I mean, likehelping them get this.
And why do we make space, evenif it's a day, whatever it is,
for our leaders to prioritizethis?
That's huge.
If we don't do that, this won'twork.
Marco Blankenburgh (29:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
We've talked a lot about thevery practical application,
consultancy, advisory work,coming alongside teams and
organizations from a learningand development point of view.
How does it change you oh?
Erika Butler (30:11):
that's good, um, really at this point I have
grown so much the last few years.
It's the right audience toshare.
I guess you know, um, I don't.
I feel very different than Idid.
So does my husband.
I'll give you one little quickpersonal example how you see
this personally, not just work.
When we moved to Switzerland wehad a little.
(30:34):
My daughter turned four.
We had a really small party forher of just two families,
lovely people, still friendswith them, all good friends, um
and we.
We had them.
We had had.
My husband orders a lot of food.
He always does, so he had these.
They were carrying thesemassive pizza boxes home and
they were all crammed in ourelevator and we realized in
these, these two families,there's 10 languages spoken.
(30:56):
Wow, 10, 10 languages and myhusband, I know one, I know some
spanish I keep working on itsome german now and we were like
what the heck, what is this?
And we and we were like whatthe heck, what is this?
And we really quickly were likewe know we have a lot to learn
and the joy of that, theexcitement, I will yeah, I just
want to lean into it more andmore and more and get more
people to see what joy thisbrings to your life.
(31:18):
Eating people all over theworld, I learned so much.
That's great.
Marco Blankenburgh (31:22):
Yeah, you mentioned the HR consultancy
learning and development companyyou started.
You're very humble about it,but tell me a little bit more.
What do you guys do?
And you mentioned Fortune 500sas well as smaller firms where
you say you wrap your armsaround them.
(31:42):
We do, yeah, tell me a littlebit more about what you do.
Erika Butler (31:46):
Yes, so we have done projects and we do projects
for Fortune 500s because a lotof us have come out of that
space.
So we have done and we doexecutive coaching, we do
leadership training, normallyprojects.
The big companies don't hire usfor long-term services, they
just want us to come in andassess the situation, or
investigation, or executivecoaching, something like that.
(32:09):
Um, so that's actually a pieceof it and we love this.
But our bulk, what has reallybecome our bulk, is for these
small to midsize organizations,as well as nonprofits and
churches and life sciencebusinesses, we become their HR
department.
They don't need somebody fulltime.
They might have anywherebetween 20 to 70 people, so
(32:30):
maybe they're to the point.
But we do their benefits and wedo their succession planning
and we provide their trainingand they have one partner they
work with on our team and thenour team covers it all.
We do their recruiting and wejust wrap, wrap around them and
make it easy so they don't haveto worry about their HR
handbooks, like whatever theyneed in HR.
We got them covered and that'sthe bulk of what we do.
Marco Blankenburgh (32:52):
Yeah, and it's one of the many reasons,
but it's one of the reasons whywe were attracted to Go High HR,
because the fact that you havethat technical expertise which
we in KnowledgeWorks we don'thave and it's a great way to
partner but also your deeppassion for people development
(33:13):
and culture creation.
That was you know.
So, as a result of that, we areactually partners now,
officially, right.
So how do you see that?
How do you see that going tothe future?
Erika Butler (33:27):
I am so thrilled.
I am so thrilled coming into2024 to partner be an official
partner of KnowledgeWorks Again.
It might get emotional.
We are very aligned in ourvalues, our teams.
My team loves your team Like,and even your team said to my
team no matter who we get, weare going to feel better.
It's going to be a positiveLike we really lift each other
up and I think we're just goingto be stronger together.
(33:49):
I think the synergy isphenomenal.
I have so much to learn fromyou guys and we just it fits.
It's this beautiful fit.
So I want more of our teamtrained on disc Like.
We have so many ways tocollaborate and strategize and
help more people.
I think, with you guys, we'llbe able to help many more people
because of the equipping youare putting into our team.
I didn't have DISC before.
(34:09):
I didn't have the ICI, theintercultural, and now I do.
Thank you to you.
So you say tech, what did youuse?
The technical?
It's funny because maybe inways, we're strengthening you
with the technical, but you'restrengthening us with the
technical big time with thetechnical, but you're
strengthening us with thetechnical big time Right, right.
Marco Blankenburgh (34:26):
So, it's beautiful.
Yeah, I know it's exciting andit's beautiful because I'm
learning more and more how smallpartnerships can be big.
You know both smallerorganizations, but by
synergizing and bringing whatwe're really good at and
passionate about bringing thattogether, it amplifies, it does.
Something beautiful is born.
Erika Butler (34:47):
It feels just the beginning of what is possible,
and I'm not just saying that asbeing a positive person.
I truly believe that deeply,and my team does too.
We're all very, very excitedabout it.
Marco Blankenburgh (34:59):
So there's typically quite a few HR
professionals listening to thispodcast, and if they haven't
been exposed to ICI, to anythingto do with intercultural
agility, what would you say tothem?
Erika Butler (35:19):
no-transcript.
So I love my HR people.
I love working with HR people.
Many times, you know, we'refast friends because we
understand the name of aterminator, a party planner, all
the misconceptions of what weactually do Right, and what I
would say is, if you, too, alsohave a passion to see your team
grow and develop and build thesehealthy cultures where people
(35:41):
thrive, ici will give you theright terminology.
It will give you the rightterminology.
It will give you the equipping.
You'll be with a team ofamazing people around the world
that you'll get to know, led byMarco.
So I guess I can't say enough.
I think, now that I've got togo through this, I just feel
much more equipped to go out tohelp my leaders and help our
(36:02):
team grow.
And you're going to do thatbecause, as an HR person, you're
doing that already.
So what you can infuse fromthis into the leaders you work
with and the team you work with,it's very powerful.
Marco Blankenburgh (36:12):
Thank you.
Thank you for saying thatthat's true.
So for the partnership betweenour two organizations, your team
that you're leading, what'sahead of you, of us?
Erika Butler (36:26):
Well, there is so much more than I can even say
right now, but we are definitelyon a growth trajectory.
We are ready to hire moreamazing people that we've been
in touch with that would like tojoin, and we just want to make
the biggest impact we can andhelp as many people as we can.
And we just want to make thebiggest impact we can and help
(36:47):
as many people as we can.
But I will say, with muchgrowth that we're seeing the
next month or two, we're alsoworking on the cleanest internal
processes to really supportwhere we're headed, and that is
so important.
If we don't do that well, wecould fall off the track.
So we're seeing that as we growand we're focusing on the new
clients and football.
You got to get it perfectinternally to be able to support
(37:11):
what's happening.
So that's like I'm.
That is a big focus for me thisquarter to really assess this
and make sure our team has thebest support internally possible
so they can give the bestsupport to the growing clients.
Marco Blankenburgh (37:23):
I can totally concur with that.
Give the best support to thegrowing clients.
I can totally concur with that.
I'm not naturally adetail-oriented person, but we
have beautiful, detail-orientedpeople on the team who make that
happen, and it's incrediblyimportant because it creates
scalability, yes, but also itcreates a practice in your own
team that you can transfer toyour clients.
Erika Butler (37:43):
Yes, absolutely.
Marco Blankenburgh (37:46):
So yeah, and one more question for you um,
so we're talking about thefuture, um, and the uh, the fact
that you know, we, we're all,we all have aspirations
ourselves, but we also, you know, we sometimes have wishes for
(38:06):
the world, wishes for the peoplearound us.
When you think about people inprofessional jobs, in NGOs, and
especially when you think aboutthe people who operate in more
of a global context, what's agolden nugget that you would
(38:28):
give to them?
What would you say?
Erika Butler (38:31):
So the golden nugget would be the most amazing
successful people I've everseen were also insanely kind,
and I would travel with some ofthese incredible executive
leaders and they whoever openedthe door for them, thank you.
How are you today?
And they get that every personbrings such value and they treat
(38:54):
everyone the same and I thinkthat is so beautiful and such a
good foundation with the heartbehind the work that is being
done here, so never forget to bekind simple, but I've worked
with lots of different peopleand not everyone does that, but
the ones that bring thatkindness and that respect to
everyone, no matter where in theworld, they're the ones
(39:16):
changing lives.
When you're a leader, it's agift.
You have much responsibility asa leader.
It's hard and it's awesome.
You can change many lives.
Will you change it for the good?
Are you going to hurt peoplewhich you could, or you could
really bless them for the restof their lives?
And it spills over to theirfamilies.
Marco Blankenburgh (39:32):
That's awesome.
Thank you for that.
So, because of time, we need towrap this up.
We could talk for a long time,but if you want to get in
contact with Erica and heramazing team, you'll find her
details in the show notes.
So don't hesitate to reach outto her and make sure you get
(39:56):
connected to her and her team.
So thank you so much forjoining us today.
Really enjoyed thisconversation.
Erika Butler (40:01):
Me too, Marco.
Marco Blankenburgh (40:03):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for joiningus for this episode of the
Cultural Agility Podcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,share it with someone.
The best way to help us out isby leaving a review on your
favorite podcast app or channel,or by forwarding and
recommending this podcast topeople around you.
As always, if any of the topicswe discussed today intrigue you
(40:26):
, you'll find links to articlesdiscussing them in greater depth
in the podcast notes.
If you would like to learn moreabout intercultural
intelligence and how you canbecome more culturally agile,
you can find more informationand hundreds of articles at
knowledgeworkscom.
Special thanks to Jason Carterfor composing the music on this
(40:47):
podcast and to the wholeKnowledgeworks team for making
this podcast successful NitaUlrikez, ara Azizbekian, rajitha
Raj.
Thanks to Vip and George foraudio production and Rosalind
Raj for scheduling, as well asCaleb Strauss for marketing and
helping produce this podcast.
If it's not a healthy culture.
You're spending a fortune whenyou don't need to, so your
revenue is not going up andyou're bottom.
So the cost I just want to.
People think HR is soft.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:09):
It's not, not at all no.
Erika Butler (00:11):
People say I get into HR because I like people.
That's not the reason you canbe in HR and like people.
But there's a lot of hard factsthat drive what we do.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:34):
Welcome to the Cultural Agility Podcast,
where we explore the stories ofsome of the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world to help you
become culturally agile andsucceed in today's culturally
complex world.
I'm your host, marco Blankenberg, international Director of
KnowledgeWorks.
I'm your host, marcoBlankenberg, international
Director of KnowledgeWorks,where every day, we help
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world.
Wow, it's great to have youlive in in our office here at
(01:07):
KnowledgeWorks.
Thank you so much, erika, forjoining us on this podcast, and
we've had the privilege to worktogether virtually and, in this
crazy world that we live in,this is the first time we meet
in person, so thank you formaking the time to come on this
podcast and we meet in person.
So thank you for making thetime to come on this podcast and
(01:27):
, as always in our episodes, weof course talk about all things
intercultural from differentangles and, because of your
extensive experience in HR, wewanted to zoom in today on hey,
how is intercultural agilitymaking a difference in the world
of HR?
And?
But before we go there, tell usa little bit about yourself.
Erika Butler (01:49):
Thank you, marco.
Well, I'm thrilled to be hereat the KnowledgeWorks office.
It's such a treat to meet someof the team members I've been
working with for, I think, overtwo years now, as well as you.
So about me?
I am from the United States ofAmerica.
My family has been abroad, inEurope, for the last three years
.
I am the wife of Travis, 15years married, and I have two
(02:12):
kids, a mom of Cody, who's 11,and a mom of Rylan, who's six.
My faith is super important tome and I also have a true joy
and love for the field of humanresources and business, and I've
been doing that for about 15years after I graduated with my
master's and bachelor's at PennState University in HR
(02:32):
management.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:33):
Fantastic.
Well, thank you for tellingyour story on this podcast.
So growing up in the US,graduating in the US, but then
also we'll hear a little bitmore about your adventures in
other countries.
When you think back of youryouth, what would be some of the
first moments where culturaldifference or difference in
(02:57):
general came on your path?
Erika Butler (03:01):
Sure, Well now, from what I know now, I think I
was a very late bloomer in thisworld of cultural agility and
intelligence because I lived inan area in Pennsylvania that
there was very little diversity,and I didn't even realize that
until I went to Penn StateUniversity and Penn State did a
(03:22):
fantastic job of really openingour eyes to to the diversity of
the world.
There were students there fromall over the world and they had
courses and actually just asfreshmen we had to attend these
sessions to talk about it andthat was when I said, wow, I had
no idea, I was really.
That was the first thing thatopened my eyes actually right.
Marco Blankenburgh (03:43):
So as a student, yes, um, and from there
, how?
How did you end up movinginternationally?
Erika Butler (03:52):
uh, tell us a little bit more about that part
uh, I love, uh, the way youinteract, your, your facial
expressions, because a lot ofpeople, good friends in the us,
also say, wow, why did you leave, why did you move?
And uh, I lived in the US alsosay, wow, why did you leave, why
did you move?
And I lived in the same areafor about 10 years, married, had
homes right by our parents, soit does seem like a kind of a
crazy move.
However, another big thing forme was at Penn State.
(04:15):
I studied abroad in Australiaas a senior and I was blown away
because I was in theinternational ward.
So I didn't just meet peoplefrom Australia, I met, I made
friends all over the world and Iknew I loved that and I felt
like I really grew in my faithbut in my, in my studies, I just
was exponential time of growth.
So when I came back I said Iwould be open to going abroad
(04:37):
again.
Marco Blankenburgh (04:38):
You say an exponential time of growth.
So if you would compare youbefore you went to australia and
then, coming back reflecting onyourself, what changed?
Erika Butler (04:50):
I might get emotional.
I I you know this people outthere, I'm a high eye.
So because it was that muchhelp, that much meant to me,
that much, okay, um well, Ithink for one, the world became
a lot less scary.
I left penn left Pennsylvania inmy cocoon of family and friends
and I didn't know a single soulin Australia.
I didn't know one person and Igot on a plane for 30 hours by
(05:14):
myself and I was like 20, 21.
And the fact that I could dothat and I did it I just became
much more confident of what Icould do in the world.
And then the warm welcome Ireceived and how the people
around the world I met thatbecame my dear friends so
different than me, but the waythey live their life was also
fascinating and great and I wasshocked by that.
I guess I think I was morescared of the rest of the world
(05:36):
and I realized no, there's a lotmore out there.
There's a lot of awesome peoplethat I could meet and grow from
and learn just from thefriendship.
Yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (05:44):
Yeah.
Erika Butler (05:45):
So those are a few of so much more.
Marco Blankenburgh (05:47):
Now a lot of people who experience that it
becomes a little bit contagious,almost.
Yes, Some people have said it'sactually a little drug.
Yeah.
It's like meeting and exploringand getting to know the world
and meeting other people, theirlives.
So where did it take you fromthere?
Erika Butler (06:07):
Oh yeah, I didn't prepare for this part, but I'll
tell you.
Well, I realized I have workednow and lived in five continents
and I've been to six continents.
Not yet Alaska, not Alaska.
Antarctica that's on my listone day maybe.
But so I guess you're right,you open that door a bit and see
what's possible.
(06:27):
And me and my husband I don'tknow, we're not saying we'll
never go back to the US, but Ithink we will be global citizens
our whole life.
We can never close that doornow that it's open, because we
found such love and such joy andpassion and growth for
ourselves and our children.
Marco Blankenburgh (06:43):
Fantastic and professionally, you've been
in the world of HR for quitesome time.
Currently, you actually talkabout that.
You founded your own business,but there was a professional
career even before that right,so tell a little bit more about
that.
Erika Butler (07:02):
Sure.
So after graduating Penn StateI worked for a few organizations
.
Mostly my time was in Fortune500 organizations.
So in that pace and that youlearn a lot in the US, I
finished my full time working incorporate America with Thermal
Fisher Scientific, which I wasat about six years, and that
also showed me how much I loveworking internationally, Cause I
(07:24):
got to do some internationaltrips for international teams.
So we'd made a decision as afamily for both of us traveling
and working with internationalteams.
We couldn't do that and havelittle children for us.
For us.
And we decided that I wouldstart a company for human
resource consulting and the nameis higher international human
resources.
I didn't have internationalclients, I didn't know if I ever
(07:46):
would, but it had to be thatname because I knew I loved
working internationally.
So, five years later, here weare in Dubai.
Marco Blankenburgh (07:54):
Well, I'm glad we got connected because it
was a lot of synergy from themoment we first met, I guess.
So the world of HR is, you know, if you look at the books that
have been published on HR,typically most of them come from
the Western world.
Some of them are actually hereon the shelves, and I meet a lot
(08:18):
of HR professionals yourself aswell, of course, and a lot of
their theoretical knowledge istypically sort of from a western
perspective.
So you got to know knowledgeworks, got to know what we do.
A few years back now, whatattracted you as an hr
(08:39):
professional, as a human being,maybe even as well, to the
intercultural approach that wehave at Knowledge Works, and
were you even convincedinitially that you needed it?
Erika Butler (08:51):
Sure.
So I have an amazing clientthat I work with three or four
years now and they have anamazing board member and he is
the one who connected me to you.
He saw he really in whether youcall it people in culture,
human resources, call it whatyou want but the work, this body
work, he really believes in it.
And he said we do leadershiptraining, we do a lot of
(09:14):
trainings and development.
He's like I need to connect you.
My daughter works at KnowledgeWorks.
I need to connect you.
And my answer to him I'm like,okay, sure, sure, I'll meet with
this group.
But I said I, I I'm a diversityinclusion trainer, I know
culture, I know this and that.
So I kind of, even honestly, Itold you this pooted a bit, but
(09:36):
I'm like, oh, I love Bill, he'san amazing guy, I trust him.
So I, I connect with you and Iwe have our first meeting and my
mind was blown.
I'm like, oh my gosh, diversity, inclusion Wonderful, wonderful
, wonderful.
But this is so much deeper.
You helped me put names to thethree worldviews, the 12
dimensions.
I didn't even know that existedand I really realized how much
I didn't know.
(09:56):
And I'm working with thesepeople around the world and I
didn't even know these weretheir values Right.
So it's been life-changing forme.
Marco Blankenburgh (10:02):
It really has working with you guys the
last two years.
It's exciting yeah, yeah yeah,and every time we speak you have
more stories to tell.
So, yeah, yeah, so, um, knowingthat the world of hr, it is
full of western oriented ways ofthinking, on books on
performance management andleadership and doing appraisals
(10:24):
and building policies andprocedures and employee
handbooks, and you name it um,how does for you, how does
knowing what you know now, usingthe, the ici framework, using
tools like perception management, the three colors of worldview,
the 12 dimensions, how doesthat shift the way you go about
(10:46):
your HR consulting, advisorywork, training, people
development?
Erika Butler (10:54):
I think what's been so eye-opening for me is I
thought I knew a lot of this andI think a lot of leaders I've
worked with wonderful leadersthat I respect, we think we know
, but I would never create athird culture space.
I wouldn't.
If I was doing, I made a lot ofmistakes.
Now I see I made a lot ofmistakes and that I wouldn't
make those same mistakes now.
I didn't create a space thatbecause it's not even working in
(11:17):
the US without all these othercountries.
There's a lot of differentcultures and you need to be
aware of this, right?
So I guess, from a perspectiveof creating, one of our mottos
is bring your best self to work,create environments where
people bring your best self.
But with that, me notunderstanding this, how could I
create that environment?
Because I didn't even know someof these values even existed.
(11:38):
I only came my own IG my owninnocence, guilt that's all
existed right.
Marco Blankenburgh (11:44):
I only came my own ig, my own innocence,
guilt, that's all.
Yeah, that was that's what forthose of us who, uh, who might
be listening to a first podcastof in this series um, so you,
you started to use languagearound the three colors yes, yes
you, uh, so, uh, maybe justbriefly.
um so, three colors of worldvieware three cultural drivers.
It's one of our typical, one ofthe earlier tools that we
(12:05):
introduce people to.
So some folks in the world aremore right, wrong, innocence,
guilt oriented, and that is themain way they make decisions,
the way they communicate andthink through dilemmas.
Erika Butler (12:17):
Family relationships.
Marco Blankenburgh (12:19):
Also, it affects everything.
Yeah, Other people are morehonor driven, trying to avoid
shameful situations.
And then a third category ispeople that might be more
hierarchical in their approach,where position, power might be
more important and how to useyour power in either a positive
(12:40):
way or sometimes it's used in anegative way as well.
So those three drivers thecontinuously at play, and it's
one of the really importantthings, I think, especially when
you start to look at the worldof HR and looking at at people
development.
I was.
I was with a team last week andone of the ladies said, yeah, I
(13:03):
don't understand why my teamdoesn't do brainstorming very
well.
And I asked her you know, tellme a little bit more about your
team.
And it was obvious that theteam was super diverse
culturally and all three ofthese drivers were present in
her team.
Some people were much morehierarchical.
They would defer to the higherauthority when a question was
(13:24):
asked.
Other people were more honordriven, so they would listen to
the people in the room and theywould not position radical ideas
very easily.
They would be very cautious,and other people would be more
innocence, guilt oriented, andthey just say what's on their
mind, you know, and just put itout there, and she was.
I explained it to her and shesays oh, that's why
(13:47):
brainstorming is so difficultwith a culturally diverse group.
So when you think about theworld of hr, what are some of
these practices, with thesedisciplines that come to mind
where intercultural agility isreally important?
Sure?
Erika Butler (14:02):
well, I have several I would love to discuss,
but I think, just going off ofyour example, what a difference
would it be now that she knowsthis?
We structure how we do meetingsat this organization and we say
these are the five rules.
We all follow the guidelinesand we go through.
What does this mean for honor?
Shame.
What does this mean?
And then here you go.
(14:22):
And this is gonna.
This is gonna transform the waymeetings are done, and much
more so.
That's just a really tangibleexample of leaders having a
strategy, knowing this andthat's gonna be a game changer
for that organization just bydoing that yeah simple but
effective and and it can avoid awhole lot of challenges.
Yeah, imagine the ideas theygoing to get out of that meeting
(14:44):
now going forward if they didthat.
Marco Blankenburgh (14:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
Erika Butler (14:47):
So there's a few that come to mind Because I just
touched on it.
I'll share.
But obviously, as an HRprofessional say, I'm new to a
team.
I want to come and assess theculture and you do that a lot of
ways and we're very data-driven.
What is turnover huge cost arewe?
Do we have open positions?
One team I worked with had ninemonths open sales position in
(15:09):
open territory.
Do you know how that impactsthe revenue coming in?
A lot?
You don't.
It's covered.
So what covered?
I want someone there yeah, butlike.
You assess all of this and yourealize, okay, this is a healthy
culture or it's not.
And then what are we going todo about it?
Focus group surveys, you gatherthat.
And then, if it's not a healthyculture, you're spending a
fortune when you don't need to.
(15:30):
So your, your revenue is notgoing up and your bottom, so the
cost.
I just want to.
People think HR is soft.
It's not at all no people say Iget into HR because I like
people, that that's not thereason you can be in HR and like
people.
But there's a lot of hard factsthat drive what we do.
So the culture piece If youcan't have a place where people
(15:50):
feel they can bring their bestself to work, they cannot thrive
, they cannot perform at theirbest and they're not going to
attract the best talent.
I can give you so many reasonsto back that up.
So that is number one why it'simportant.
If you have a cultural diverseteam or work globally, you gotta
get this right yeah you gottaget it right now.
Marco Blankenburgh (16:08):
I just want to throw this in, because one
thing that that I have seen oncepeople discover the culture
piece, or the puzzle piece thatthey've missed, um, they
typically still get stuck inthis idea.
Oh, which nationalities do Ihave on my team?
I have a Korean and a Brazilianand an American and a German,
etc.
And now I need them to worktogether.
(16:33):
How is what KnowledgeWorks doesfor you?
How is that different?
Because we, from the beginning,beginning walked away from this
idea of painting nationalcultural broad brush strokes as
a base.
We use the personal culture asa base.
How, how can, does that makesense for you?
(16:56):
How do you apply that?
Erika Butler (16:57):
so much it makes sense.
It's the power of the one, theindividual, recognizing that,
yes, this might be underlyingvalues, but one of my team
members did this and she did thereport and she fell in two of
the three categories.
And this happens just becauseyou live somewhere doesn't mean
you, there's not outsideinfluences of your values.
So don't assume just becausethey're from us, china, wherever
(17:18):
, and the personality set piece,you have the values, but like
we love disc right.
Uh, there's layers on like thevalues, but there's layers on
that.
You cannot just come in andmake these assumptions.
Marco Blankenburgh (17:29):
That will not work yeah you need to know
your team so really getting toknow people at a personal level,
both from a psychological pointof view as well as from a
cultural point of view, iscrucial.
You mentioned a few timesalready the idea of a third
cultural space oh yes that sortof lingo that we use, and it
points to this idea of culturecreation.
(17:50):
So even the example ofbrainstorming how do we create a
meeting culture where we have,you said, a few rules, where our
meetings have become better,where people feel comfortable
and safe, sharing in ways thatare acceptable to them, which is
a way of creating culture,right?
So how?
(18:12):
You mentioned leadership, howdo you bring a group of leaders
together?
How do you create culturebetween leaders and why is it
important in the first place?
Erika Butler (18:21):
So, for me, what I found work, just speaking from
my personal experience as wellas my studies and research I
really think it has to be thedata.
Marco Blankenburgh (18:32):
Okay.
Erika Butler (18:33):
I I the only way I've done this with a group of
you know the senior leaders ofan organization, and when you
show the data and you say thisis why the team's leaving, this
is what like.
If you can bring them that andyou can paint the story and they
get it, they're going to bemore willing to listen.
And also, I found another keythat's been game changer for me.
You always have maybe that oneor two challenging leader that
(18:55):
might not get it or be on board,say it's marketing.
Well then I'm going to partnerwith that person, be the best
darn marketing supporter that Ican possibly be.
Show them I got your back, I'llalways have your back.
And then guess what, when thatleadership team's on board, you
know it yourself they just theycan run together.
So the data being good partnersto them, relationally strong
trust you talked about that withShelly on one of your last
(19:17):
podcasts trust, and then I thinkthe team can be unstoppable to
make this happen.
But you have to train them too,right you need to equip them.
You need to equip them too.
Marco Blankenburgh (19:27):
Yeah, and culture creation is.
You know, it's one thing.
If people all carry the samepassport, which is, if they come
from all over the world into anorganization that in and of
itself has a culture, then youreally need to have
intentionality about it.
And I love what you mentionedearlier.
That data is important.
Data about you know, what's theimpact of our current culture
(19:53):
on the organization and whatdoes that result in in terms of
what's working, what's notworking?
But then also, adding thatself-discovery piece, and I was
with a group of senior leaderslast week and sometimes I think,
well, these people have been incareers 15, 20 years.
(20:13):
Why are we going?
You know, sometimes I'm evenscared to take them back to
basics, but then when you do,it's like you know, this beauty
start, you know, it's likepainting, almost, you know, and
people really appreciate thatself-discovery and deeper
awareness because from that theycan actually move forward.
Erika Butler (20:33):
Yes, they can make a difference the first time I
learned about disc I was atthermal fisher and they brought
in this amazing training.
They trained all the leaders ondisc and it just was so
shocking to me because I'm ahigh I and obviously that
there's conflict with some othergroups and I never understood
that.
I did like the assumptionsabout me that people may could
hurt me and as well as myassumptions hurt maybe them.
(20:55):
But to get the this piece, itwas so healing for me as a
person to walk forward in thatwith much deeper understanding.
Marco Blankenburgh (21:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, starting there, and then
from there also, you actuallygenuinely can appreciate what
other people bring to the tablethat you don't have and leave
space for it.
Erika Butler (21:13):
Yeah, and also, who am I meeting with?
Okay, there is c.
Okay, so I need to bring my dataagain even more the data yeah
speaking of data, I'd love toshare one specific example that
I think will really paint um thepicture, because I think we
learn through story.
As humans, we learn throughstory right, absolutely um.
So this actually happened atthermal fisher and I got to join
a group, um, as the hr head, orwhatever you want to call it,
(21:36):
and I uh, but in six months to ayear it was a phenomenal
leadership team.
We work great together.
But in six months to a year, wedropped turnover together from
14% to 7%.
We had our internal promotionsgo and I remember this because
you'll see the flip-flop 25% to52%.
So that means people weregetting promoted internally
(21:57):
instead of hiring outside.
We love hiring outside, butisn't that amazing?
People had a better pathforward because they were
getting developed.
We had 100% job offers, exceptit wow when there was a job
opening for a long time before.
Do you know, I'm saying, oh,one year.
Oh, the other cool thing in oneyear, not one of the new people
left the first year all thesethings because we focused on
(22:18):
culture and we rallied aroundthe culture.
That is how powerful it is.
Do you know the cost savings ofthat turnover?
So I just have to share thatlike it really does work.
This is not pie in the skystuff here yeah, yeah, oh,
fantastic, yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (22:31):
So when you think about the world of hr,
what would be other?
I mean, we could talk aboutmany application areas, but what
comes to mind for you that youthink is important?
Erika Butler (22:40):
so we have now for five years done full day
leadership trainings withorganizations.
We got to actually go back toThermoFish and do that.
That was fun, and otherorganizations as well, and we
have one whole segment.
We have five segments and wehave one whole segment on change
management for leaders.
Because if you're going to tripand fall and struggle and be in
this chaos cycle yourself whichhappens for leaders it's nice
(23:03):
to know what to call it, it'snice to expect.
As a human, I'm going to begoing through these emotions,
but how do I lead from thatplace and I think you're talking
about all these globalorganizations If you're leading
in that?
How can you lead well in achaos season If you don't
understand the values of theteam, their core family values,
(23:25):
not just.
Oh, I value integrity Great, metoo, core.
And I think it's like okay whenwe communicate this message.
What does honor shame need tohear?
What does power fear need tohear?
That strategy?
It's a big miss.
This happens all the time.
You see, I know you do, I knowyou could give a zillion
examples.
That's huge.
I think that's a huge way touse this tool.
Marco Blankenburgh (23:44):
Yeah, and to your point.
Actually, one of ourpractitioners is currently on
that topic, doing a PhD, lookingat exactly that.
If you come from a morehierarchical background, more
power-driven background, how ischange actually working for you
and how do you, as a leader,come alongside people?
What does it look like ifyou're more honor, shame driven,
(24:07):
or more innocence, guilt driven?
And it's fascinating, even inthe world of change, if you look
at the theory of change, thosethree things convincing people
through reason, uh, invitingthem to a higher purpose, like,
like glory to be gained you knowyou're going to be the savior,
(24:29):
the hero of what?
the future will look like, orforcing people and just saying
I'm in charge here, this is,we're going to do this from now
on.
Just get you know, get on withit.
Those three are actuallyclassically the cocktail of
change management and it's likeyou said.
It's just incredibly powerfulto bring a tool like the Three
Colors of Worldview alongsideand you can instantly see how
(24:52):
you misfire in the changemanagement approach you use.
Erika Butler (24:56):
You think even about like an innocence, guilt,
culture.
Ambiguity is hard for somebecause of personality, easy for
some, but there's creativity init, there's almost fun in it to
some extent.
But you think of power, of fear, and ambiguity becomes what do
we do?
The leader's not telling uswhat to do and I want to know
what my leader tells me.
So I do my job.
Well, bravo to them.
(25:18):
Right, but even that, evencommon things of change is going
to hit differently.
Marco Blankenburgh (25:23):
Yeah, yeah, even common things of change is
going to hit differently, yeah,and if you?
Erika Butler (25:31):
look at how change is changing.
It's constant.
The only thing about change isit's constant, or what is it?
There's a saying.
Do you know what I'm trying tosay here?
What's the saying?
Marco Blankenburgh (25:37):
Yeah, the only constant in the world is
change.
Erika Butler (25:41):
Which is so ironic .
Marco Blankenburgh (25:42):
Yeah, and it's not that.
Oh, oh, we've handled it.
So now there's calmer waters.
The moments, those moments withcalmer waters, are less and
less, and they're shorter aswell now here's ai, now here's
this.
Erika Butler (25:55):
Like you turn around and some whoa, what the
heck is this?
Yes, we're all living thistogether.
Marco Blankenburgh (26:00):
It's rapid yeah, absolutely yeah.
That's a great area.
We could talk a lot about that,and and what I also find, I
think and you, you probably haveseen the same is that the
ability to successfully gothrough change increases
significantly if you have astrong culture to begin with
(26:21):
trust.
Yeah, yeah, yeah with Trust,trust, yeah.
So strong levels of trust Ifyou go through rough waters, if
you have a good team that knowswhat to expect from one another.
We always talk about, you know,can I anticipate your behavior,
do I correctly interpret it anddo I adjust my part in the game
wherever necessary?
(26:41):
So strong cultures do thatsuper well.
And in change, you have to dothat all the time, yeah.
Erika Butler (26:48):
It is brilliant what you just said, because one
of the parts of our training iswe always, in this part of the
day, do a focus group, the waywe're very like our values, our
results, quality and trust, andwe're very big on results
because so I don't want to justtrain a team for a day.
So what, what, what, what's theinvestment?
One of them is accuratefeedback.
(27:09):
What are the leaders saying?
What is the mess?
And then this change part fearalways comes out.
Yeah.
Fear.
I'm not going to know.
The new system.
I like it this way.
Well, how can I let them?
They're scared because theydon't have good communication.
Maybe they don't have the path,Maybe the training hasn't been
set up yet.
That's what it is.
So the fact that you're alreadydoing that, Marco wow, what it
(27:29):
would look like if we providethis before the change is
announced.
So they know they have support.
Yes, it's hard, but you'regoing to be supported.
We're going to see you throughthis.
We're going to do it together.
Marco Blankenburgh (27:39):
Yeah, it's powerful.
Erika Butler (27:40):
Game changer.
Marco Blankenburgh (27:41):
Absolutely yeah.
What are maybe some other areasthat you see in HR?
Erika Butler (27:47):
So we did touch on it a bit, but I do think if
there is a lack of leaders beingequipped of even how to do this
, or that it even exists, again,right, they might have the
diversity, inclusion, training,but there's so much more depth
to go to understand their team,and I think it's really
important for organizations.
It's top down, it just is.
(28:08):
Even in the US it is.
If the leaders do not graspthis or care about it and, by
the way, you said a comment, noteveryone does care.
That's true.
There's people out there.
Oh, I like it my way.
Fine.
Who are we hiring to lead thisteam?
Are we hiring somebody who isgoing to care about our
different people and culturesand the individuals that make
this up?
So I think, if we have nostrategy on how we're training
(28:31):
our leaders and what is theaccountability, by the way, what
is the accountability?
That is what's going to carryus the leaders leading well and
understanding this and reallygrasping it and sharing it with
their teams.
Marco Blankenburgh (28:42):
Yeah, if we don't have that, it's sort of
counterintuitive, becauseleaders are dealing themselves
with so much change.
And there's so many balls thatthey have to keep in the air.
If then, at the same time, theyhave to carve out time to
develop themselves, to become,you know, satya Nadella of
Microsoft says we have to becomemore human, humans.
(29:02):
Yeah that's true, and thattakes time.
It does, and if you'reinundated, it's really takes a
lot of discipline and courageand doing it together.
That's the other thing that'ssuper important.
Erika Butler (29:14):
But you're right and this is why the time piece,
this is why it gets missed somuch.
I think this is why we haveteams that have leaders.
For 20 years they never hadleadership training wow and now
I'm talking more small tomid-sized businesses, because,
as a as a hr consulting piece,we wrap around them, as you know
.
So I got to do more of that now, which I really enjoy, um, but
(29:35):
you're right, you're competingfor priorities.
So how do you convince theexecutives, whoever it is, that
this actually will tricklethrough your whole organization?
There's's a huge cost benefit.
You know what I mean, likehelping them get this.
And why do we make space, evenif it's a day, whatever it is,
for our leaders to prioritizethis?
That's huge.
If we don't do that, this won'twork.
Marco Blankenburgh (29:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
We've talked a lot about thevery practical application,
consultancy, advisory work,coming alongside teams and
organizations from a learningand development point of view.
How does it change you oh?
Erika Butler (30:11):
that's good, um, really at this point I have
grown so much the last few years.
It's the right audience toshare.
I guess you know, um, I don't.
I feel very different than Idid.
So does my husband.
I'll give you one little quickpersonal example how you see
this personally, not just work.
When we moved to Switzerland wehad a little.
(30:34):
My daughter turned four.
We had a really small party forher of just two families,
lovely people, still friendswith them, all good friends, um
and we.
We had them.
We had had.
My husband orders a lot of food.
He always does, so he had these.
They were carrying thesemassive pizza boxes home and
they were all crammed in ourelevator and we realized in
these, these two families,there's 10 languages spoken.
(30:56):
Wow, 10, 10 languages and myhusband, I know one, I know some
spanish I keep working on itsome german now and we were like
what the heck, what is this?
And we and we were like whatthe heck, what is this?
And we really quickly were likewe know we have a lot to learn
and the joy of that, theexcitement, I will yeah, I just
want to lean into it more andmore and more and get more
people to see what joy thisbrings to your life.
(31:18):
Eating people all over theworld, I learned so much.
That's great.
Marco Blankenburgh (31:22):
Yeah, you mentioned the HR consultancy
learning and development companyyou started.
You're very humble about it,but tell me a little bit more.
What do you guys do?
And you mentioned Fortune 500sas well as smaller firms where
you say you wrap your armsaround them.
(31:42):
We do, yeah, tell me a littlebit more about what you do.
Erika Butler (31:46):
Yes, so we have done projects and we do projects
for Fortune 500s because a lotof us have come out of that
space.
So we have done and we doexecutive coaching, we do
leadership training, normallyprojects.
The big companies don't hire usfor long-term services, they
just want us to come in andassess the situation, or
investigation, or executivecoaching, something like that.
(32:09):
Um, so that's actually a pieceof it and we love this.
But our bulk, what has reallybecome our bulk, is for these
small to midsize organizations,as well as nonprofits and
churches and life sciencebusinesses, we become their HR
department.
They don't need somebody fulltime.
They might have anywherebetween 20 to 70 people, so
(32:30):
maybe they're to the point.
But we do their benefits and wedo their succession planning
and we provide their trainingand they have one partner they
work with on our team and thenour team covers it all.
We do their recruiting and wejust wrap, wrap around them and
make it easy so they don't haveto worry about their HR
handbooks, like whatever theyneed in HR.
We got them covered and that'sthe bulk of what we do.
Marco Blankenburgh (32:52):
Yeah, and it's one of the many reasons,
but it's one of the reasons whywe were attracted to Go High HR,
because the fact that you havethat technical expertise which
we in KnowledgeWorks we don'thave and it's a great way to
partner but also your deeppassion for people development
(33:13):
and culture creation.
That was you know.
So, as a result of that, we areactually partners now,
officially, right.
So how do you see that?
How do you see that going tothe future?
Erika Butler (33:27):
I am so thrilled.
I am so thrilled coming into2024 to partner be an official
partner of KnowledgeWorks Again.
It might get emotional.
We are very aligned in ourvalues, our teams.
My team loves your team Like,and even your team said to my
team no matter who we get, weare going to feel better.
It's going to be a positiveLike we really lift each other
up and I think we're just goingto be stronger together.
(33:49):
I think the synergy isphenomenal.
I have so much to learn fromyou guys and we just it fits.
It's this beautiful fit.
So I want more of our teamtrained on disc Like.
We have so many ways tocollaborate and strategize and
help more people.
I think, with you guys, we'llbe able to help many more people
because of the equipping youare putting into our team.
I didn't have DISC before.
(34:09):
I didn't have the ICI, theintercultural, and now I do.
Thank you to you.
So you say tech, what did youuse?
The technical?
It's funny because maybe inways, we're strengthening you
with the technical, but you'restrengthening us with the
technical big time with thetechnical, but you're
strengthening us with thetechnical big time Right, right.
Marco Blankenburgh (34:26):
So, it's beautiful.
Yeah, I know it's exciting andit's beautiful because I'm
learning more and more how smallpartnerships can be big.
You know both smallerorganizations, but by
synergizing and bringing whatwe're really good at and
passionate about bringing thattogether, it amplifies, it does.
Something beautiful is born.
Erika Butler (34:47):
It feels just the beginning of what is possible,
and I'm not just saying that asbeing a positive person.
I truly believe that deeply,and my team does too.
We're all very, very excitedabout it.
Marco Blankenburgh (34:59):
So there's typically quite a few HR
professionals listening to thispodcast, and if they haven't
been exposed to ICI, to anythingto do with intercultural
agility, what would you say tothem?
Erika Butler (35:19):
no-transcript.
So I love my HR people.
I love working with HR people.
Many times, you know, we'refast friends because we
understand the name of aterminator, a party planner, all
the misconceptions of what weactually do Right, and what I
would say is, if you, too, alsohave a passion to see your team
grow and develop and build thesehealthy cultures where people
(35:41):
thrive, ici will give you theright terminology.
It will give you the rightterminology.
It will give you the equipping.
You'll be with a team ofamazing people around the world
that you'll get to know, led byMarco.
So I guess I can't say enough.
I think, now that I've got togo through this, I just feel
much more equipped to go out tohelp my leaders and help our
(36:02):
team grow.
And you're going to do thatbecause, as an HR person, you're
doing that already.
So what you can infuse fromthis into the leaders you work
with and the team you work with,it's very powerful.
Marco Blankenburgh (36:12):
Thank you.
Thank you for saying thatthat's true.
So for the partnership betweenour two organizations, your team
that you're leading, what'sahead of you, of us?
Erika Butler (36:26):
Well, there is so much more than I can even say
right now, but we are definitelyon a growth trajectory.
We are ready to hire moreamazing people that we've been
in touch with that would like tojoin, and we just want to make
the biggest impact we can andhelp as many people as we can.
And we just want to make thebiggest impact we can and help
(36:47):
as many people as we can.
But I will say, with muchgrowth that we're seeing the
next month or two, we're alsoworking on the cleanest internal
processes to really supportwhere we're headed, and that is
so important.
If we don't do that well, wecould fall off the track.
So we're seeing that as we growand we're focusing on the new
clients and football.
You got to get it perfectinternally to be able to support
(37:11):
what's happening.
So that's like I'm.
That is a big focus for me thisquarter to really assess this
and make sure our team has thebest support internally possible
so they can give the bestsupport to the growing clients.
Marco Blankenburgh (37:23):
I can totally concur with that.
Give the best support to thegrowing clients.
I can totally concur with that.
I'm not naturally adetail-oriented person, but we
have beautiful, detail-orientedpeople on the team who make that
happen, and it's incrediblyimportant because it creates
scalability, yes, but also itcreates a practice in your own
team that you can transfer toyour clients.
Erika Butler (37:43):
Yes, absolutely.
Marco Blankenburgh (37:46):
So yeah, and one more question for you um,
so we're talking about thefuture, um, and the uh, the fact
that you know, we, we're all,we all have aspirations
ourselves, but we also, you know, we sometimes have wishes for
(38:06):
the world, wishes for the peoplearound us.
When you think about people inprofessional jobs, in NGOs, and
especially when you think aboutthe people who operate in more
of a global context, what's agolden nugget that you would
(38:28):
give to them?
What would you say?
Erika Butler (38:31):
So the golden nugget would be the most amazing
successful people I've everseen were also insanely kind,
and I would travel with some ofthese incredible executive
leaders and they whoever openedthe door for them, thank you.
How are you today?
And they get that every personbrings such value and they treat
(38:54):
everyone the same and I thinkthat is so beautiful and such a
good foundation with the heartbehind the work that is being
done here, so never forget to bekind simple, but I've worked
with lots of different peopleand not everyone does that, but
the ones that bring thatkindness and that respect to
everyone, no matter where in theworld, they're the ones
(39:16):
changing lives.
When you're a leader, it's agift.
You have much responsibility asa leader.
It's hard and it's awesome.
You can change many lives.
Will you change it for the good?
Are you going to hurt peoplewhich you could, or you could
really bless them for the restof their lives?
And it spills over to theirfamilies.
Marco Blankenburgh (39:32):
That's awesome.
Thank you for that.
So, because of time, we need towrap this up.
We could talk for a long time,but if you want to get in
contact with Erica and heramazing team, you'll find her
details in the show notes.
So don't hesitate to reach outto her and make sure you get
(39:56):
connected to her and her team.
So thank you so much forjoining us today.
Really enjoyed thisconversation.
Erika Butler (40:01):
Me too, Marco.
Marco Blankenburgh (40:03):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for joiningus for this episode of the
Cultural Agility Podcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,share it with someone.
The best way to help us out isby leaving a review on your
favorite podcast app or channel,or by forwarding and
recommending this podcast topeople around you.
As always, if any of the topicswe discussed today intrigue you
(40:26):
, you'll find links to articlesdiscussing them in greater depth
in the podcast notes.
If you would like to learn moreabout intercultural
intelligence and how you canbecome more culturally agile,
you can find more informationand hundreds of articles at
knowledgeworkscom.
Special thanks to Jason Carterfor composing the music on this
(40:47):
podcast and to the wholeKnowledgeworks team for making
this podcast successful NitaUlrikez, ara Azizbekian, rajitha
Raj.
Thanks to Vip and George foraudio production and Rosalind
Raj for scheduling, as well asCaleb Strauss for marketing and
helping produce this podcast.
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