September 23, 2025 • 66 mins
Chris and I kick off this conversation with my favorite topic of all time: boundaries. It has been the thing I’ve had to work on the most; once I realized I didn’t have any, I set out to go find out what they were about and how to both set and uphold them in all types of relationships. We discuss the importance of setting boundaries in relationships, understanding emotional regulation, and the challenges of navigating personal needs while supporting others.
Throughout this episode Chris emphasizes the significance of self-awareness, the value of time, and how practicing self-care allows for better support of others. He also talks about how to manage empathy so it doesn’t lead to compassion fatigue, the importance of celebrating small wins and how recovery is a continuous journey of self-discovery.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
There are moments in life that split us open.
Quiet unravelings, suddenbreaks, or truths we didn't know
we needed until we had nochoice.
This podcast is about thosemoments.
It's about the turning pointsthat change us.
The things I wish someone hadtold me that I only understand
in looking back.
Come on in.
You belong here.
(00:20):
And we're going to talk aboutall of it.
I'm your host, Natanya, and thisis What I Didn't Know.
Before we begin a quick note,this podcast explores themes
such as mental health,addiction, trauma, and recovery.
While the stories here arehonest and heartfelt, they're
not a substitute forprofessional advice, therapy, or
(00:41):
medical treatment.
Please listen with care andpause anytime you need to take
whatever resonates for you andleave the rest.
All right.
So today, before you meet Chris,a quick story.
When I lived in Colorado, therewas a period of time when I was
in the hospital and I'm in thehospital in Colorado.
My mom still lives in Illinois.
(01:01):
And so a few months after I hadgotten out, we were on the phone
and she was talking to me andshe said, you know, while you
were in the hospital, I didn'tpray for, you know, you to just
get better because you might'veneeded to go through what you
were going through as part ofyour journey?
(01:22):
She said, so instead, I justprayed that you'd meet the right
people.
And after I got out of thehospital, I decided that I was
going to quit drinking.
And approximately three weekslater, Chris Ray was the first
person that I met in recovery.
And we spent, I don't know,roughly two, two and a half
(01:43):
years working together at anonprofit in recovery.
And he's one of my favoritehumans and still a very good
friend of mine to this day.
So I just wanted to give youthat little lowdown before you
get to meet him.
And I'm just so excited and Ihope you enjoy the show.
(02:06):
Hi.
Hey.
I'm so excited you're here,friend.
I haven't seen you in, what,when was the last time I saw
you?
Last fall.
SPEAKER_01 (02:13):
Not quite a year.
Last fall.
SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (02:17):
But it was short and brief because you had to run
away.
I
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
didn't have to run away.
Something about
SPEAKER_01 (02:21):
work, responsibilities.
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
So I want to talk to you about, I want to start with
my favorite topic, which you'realso great at.
Can you guess what it is that weboth had to work at so much?
Boundaries?
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (02:36):
Yeah, is that
SPEAKER_00 (02:37):
it?
I love that you know
SPEAKER_01 (02:40):
that.
I'm good at it in some ways, andI'm terrible at it in other
ways, but it's always a work inprogress.
SPEAKER_00 (02:46):
Well, what do you think, where did it used to be
for you before you even startedworking on it?
Just like, yeah, go
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
ahead.
So where it used to be for mewas, I mean, a long time ago, it
was...
I would do anything andeverything to be accepted and to
please and to my own detriment.
And that was putting myself inlegal risk, at my health at
risk, my financial self at risk,my all the stuff, you know, to
(03:22):
be the person who was acceptedand loved and cared for and then
I got into recovery because Ifinally said I've drained myself
down enough to a point that I'mspiritually financially
(03:43):
physically bankrupt and then Ihad to rebuild it you know and
then I had to learn actuallywhat boundaries are so the first
couple years of recovery was letme show you anything and
everything so that you canaccept this new version of me.
(04:06):
Let me bend over backwards.
Let me allow, you know, let meanswer my phone at two in the
morning because you want to talkabout how you want to quit
drinking.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (04:19):
that was one that I remember specifically was
because when we worked together,you had gone And I remember
talking to you at one point andpeople, because clients either
weren't respecting that orweren't listening, would still
(04:40):
call and text anyway.
And at the time you wereresponding to say, I'm not
available.
SPEAKER_02 (04:48):
And
SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
we, I remember the conversation we talked about
that, how the response, like youwere responding to that.
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (05:24):
I set like an away email on my work, on my work
email.
Like, oh, hey, I'm going to begone for such and such time.
I remember there's a, there's aguy, well, JK, that sent his, I
mean, he has a flip phone andthen he would set his, he would
set his email and he still, it'slike something super funny.
(05:45):
Like, and that was great.
And then I started working withChow and I remember Aaron, our
CEO, I think still, still hasthis, kind of she's altered it a
little bit but it was the firsttime I saw it it said something
to the effect of I will answeryour email in two to three days
and that's how I operate I meanit was something to that effect
(06:09):
but just being like not everyform of communication is urgent
communication
SPEAKER_00 (06:17):
yeah go ahead
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
well and I think that that also that stems from
me wanting to control everythingand know the outcome on my end.
SPEAKER_00 (06:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:32):
The boundaries are a safety thing.
Like I need to know.
So if I need to know, then youprobably also need to know.
So I'm going to make you feelsafe by giving you access and
letting you know, but not givingany space for the unknown.
And I think that's a reallydisservice, not only to myself,
(06:54):
but to everybody else.
And it doesn't allow trust.
Yeah, I like that.
So really just that kind of, Imean, and it's the same thing.
Like if, if I, if I want ananswer to something, I used to
have to be like, well, I need toknow right away.
Like why, why is it like rude?
I need to know what's going on.
(07:15):
Are you mad at me?
What can I do to fix itimmediately?
Rather than saying, you know, Ithink, I think a lot of what
I've been working on is, youknow, if, if you need something
for me and I can't do it, like Ijust can't do it.
I don't need to bend overbackwards.
I might be able to direct you tosomebody that can.
(07:36):
But people don't like that,especially people in recovery.
People that don't have anyboundaries don't like
boundaries.
SPEAKER_00 (07:42):
Yes.
I love that saying.
It's one of my favorites.
And it reminded me, when youwere talking about that, it
reminded me of a, it was atraining that I had taken with
Kate.
And I think it was CCARtraining.
And it was, and we did, therewas a whole section on crises.
And it was like 10 differentsummary examples of situations.
And we had to go through anddetermine what a crisis was and
(08:05):
what wasn't a crisis.
And I mean, we do it allindividually.
And then we kind of got in teamsand talked about it, whatever.
And I mean, they're alldifferent types of situations.
Someone's, you know, their rentis late or all these different
things that that can put peopleinto states of stress.
And the answer, like at the end,when we got to the final thing
(08:25):
was that none of them werecrises.
UNKNOWN (08:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:29):
None of them.
Because what people getoverwhelmed about or stressed
out or frustrated or what putsthem in a heightened state of
anxiety is many things that arenot actually a crisis.
And so especially when you work
SPEAKER_01 (08:42):
in that world.
secure.
really less things are crisisright less things less things
(09:05):
constitute a crisis um i had myeyes here because i'm on my
phone and this feels a lotbetter and i can see you
SPEAKER_00 (09:14):
my glasses are somewhere i actually put them on
and we will match
SPEAKER_01 (09:17):
yeah i noticed last night i was at a restaurant i
couldn't see the menu um so yeahi mean and i think that's just i
mean a great example of crisisand boundaries because i also
not only did i not have youknow, I mean, it just goes,
boundaries are so back andforth.
Like, I mean, I was driving downthe pass on Friday and I didn't
(09:38):
get such on you and I drive itoff the pass and my engine blew
up, man, that sucks.
Right.
It's awful.
It's, it's just, you know, it iswhat it is.
It's it, I, I, I was actuallyliterally saying, Oh, this car's
running great.
I just, you know, stuff.
And then, you know, I got intoit, whatever engine blew up and
(09:59):
I didn't like start callingeverybody and be like, Oh my
God, you know, this is awful.
This is, this happened to me,blah, blah, blah.
No, I said, all right, well,what do I do next?
Uh, this, I'm in a safe spot.
This isn't necessarily a crisis.
A tow truck driver pulled upbehind me.
(10:19):
I was able to talk to myinsurance.
I was able to kind of, you know,figure out a way to get the car
to Denver.
It's a holiday weekend.
Nobody's going to answer.
I still don't, nobody has talkedto me about it because they
don't come into the shop on onMonday, but I was just like, I'm
going to bring it down there.
I don't need to know what'sgoing to happen.
I'm able to step into theunknown and just let this be.
(10:42):
So I'm not going to try to findsome shop that's open on a
Friday or a holiday weekend.
I'm not going to do all thesethings that just go down the
line and see what I can put infront of the other.
And that is allowing...
The boundaries of what'spossible for me, what the
universe has allowed me to bein, like some friends couldn't
(11:06):
come and pick me up.
They have boundaries.
I'm not going to be like, well,what do I do?
I just call down the line.
Much like in recovery, I'mhaving a bad weekend.
I need to talk to somebody.
I'm having a craving.
I need to talk to somebody.
If my sponsor doesn't answer orif my best friend doesn't
answer, what do I do?
(11:26):
I don't just keep calling themback.
SPEAKER_02 (11:29):
I
SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
just go down the line and say well they're doing
something.
Maybe somebody is available.
And take
SPEAKER_00 (11:36):
that next step.
(12:06):
Mm-hmm.
(12:36):
Yeah.
I mean, you didn't do that
SPEAKER_01 (12:40):
overnight.
(13:06):
that you want the best for, youknow, family, things like that.
It's, it's really tough.
when you really just want thebest for them.
And you really, you're justtrying to shake them and show
them that, you know, this is notthe way.
Don't, people please.
But that, what I always say withpeople, and you and I have
(13:28):
practiced this together, and Iremember saying this to each
other a number of times, was,hey, if you need to practice,
practice on me.
I'm a good note.
You know, especially goodfriends.
You know, I may actually want toreally stretch my schedule, or I
may want to actually dosomething something that is very
very inconvenient for me but yousaid you need help and i might
(13:53):
just practice with you say heyyou know what maybe you should
find somebody else because thenthat's helping me build a muscle
where it's something that i likeit's not necessarily that i
can't do it it's not like i'm atthe end of my rope i can't do it
it's just it's a littleinconvenient and why don't i
give you the opportunity toreach outside of your of of this
(14:14):
and see if somebody else canhelp you.
And, and, you know, that's,that's, that's practicing for
me, building a muscle for when Iam at the end of my rope, or if
I am talking to somebody that Idon't feel comfortable with
boundaries or I don't want tohave boundaries with, because I,
I desperately still want them tobe in my life or I want them to
show up in a certain way.
(14:35):
And I think that's, that's areally valuable part of
friendship for me is, is when Ican practice that or when people
practice that with me.
SPEAKER_03 (14:45):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (14:45):
you know i didn't know i'll go back to the car
again i had somebody say no andi wasn't like i wasn't like hey
but you know you know but yousaid you do do anything you said
you said call me if you needanything i'm calling and i need
something
SPEAKER_00 (15:00):
yeah okay you're
SPEAKER_01 (15:02):
busy i'm gonna go down the line
SPEAKER_00 (15:03):
yeah well and even i love because there's there's big
things and there's little thingslike at one point like we
function it's one of my favoritethings about you specifically is
that you and i have some thingsthat are very very similar in
common that we had to work onand functionally we are so
different right and like one ofthe things that um you are more
of a night owl than i am rightand i remember well maybe that
(15:26):
was well i don't go
SPEAKER_01 (15:27):
to bed at 8 30 i think that's probably it i go to
bed at midnight and i wake up atsix
SPEAKER_00 (15:32):
yeah that's a night owl yeah but there was it was a
work thing at one point and youhad called me and it was like
nine o'clock at night to talkabout i think a client that
called you and it was but it'sthe point of practicing because
i was on comfortable because Icare about you and I want you to
know that I support you that Isupport you at work that you
(15:52):
know whatever and I want you toknow that I'm here for you and
it's past my bedtime right solike how do you say that 6
SPEAKER_01 (15:59):
30 p.m
SPEAKER_00 (16:04):
how do you like it but to be able to like vocalize
that and to honor that like Iwant you to like to to transmit
the fact that I care about youand I care about this topic and
it's important and in the futureif it's past 8 30 don't call me
about work
SPEAKER_02 (16:21):
yeah
SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
it was a it wasn't even that you called me it was
about work like for me at thattime work ended yeah you know 5
5 30 unless we had an event andso and it dragged me into then
I'm done talking to you at 9 30and I can't decompress
SPEAKER_01 (16:37):
well and also what that does is it teaches it
teaches the person oh hey maybemaybe this is something you can
learn from because I would callyou know through the process of
me working and us workingtogether and now I'm still going
through that process of hey I'mavailable between these hours
you call me you're not sleepingon my couch I'm not answering
(16:58):
your call at midnight I'm notyou know coming to pick you up
to do this like and that andthat helps people develop their
own skills and their own way ofproblem solving
SPEAKER_02 (17:10):
yeah
SPEAKER_01 (17:10):
and I mean I think to the same effect you said on
Thursday or whatever it wasWednesday for this you were like
oh what are you doing you knowthis weekend night and I'm like
I'm fucking I'm out partying youknow like I'm out on a Friday
and Saturday night so we have todo Sunday morning or Sunday
afternoon which you know nodetail to that but um but it is
(17:31):
yeah it's funny like so soconversely you saying don't call
me at this time also allows meand gives me the space to say
hey I feel comfortable with thisperson because they have stated
their I also feel comfortablestating my own and there's no
like hard feelings.
It's just we'll figure it out.
SPEAKER_00 (17:53):
Yeah.
Well, and it goes back to thatthat saying, which I didn't
understand for a long time andthen I didn't like, which is you
teach people how to treat you.
SPEAKER_02 (18:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:03):
Right.
And so by having thoseconversations, I mean, like,
hey, I'm available for this.
I'm not available for that.
And then setting the boundary isthe easy part.
It's the upholding the boundary.
That's the hard part.
Right.
Especially if it's something youwant
SPEAKER_01 (18:17):
or something that you consider to be a crisis,
right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:26):
Sorry, I got excited.
But you specifically, you haveimpressively worked on that so
much in the past several years,especially with people you love.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
Yeah.
And I mean, it falterssometimes, but it is...
I think more so I've worked onmy need to know.
(19:14):
I don't know what's going on.
I don't know what's going onwith this person.
I don't know what's going onwith this situation.
I don't know how things aregoing to turn out.
But that's okay, right?
I can step into the unknown andlet things unfold in ways that
before I could not.
And that's, you know, a lot ofthat's trauma work.
(19:36):
A lot of that's understandingyou can't control every
situation, nor should you.
SPEAKER_00 (19:41):
And
SPEAKER_01 (19:42):
it's a lot of higher power stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
Yeah, which is, I mean, you're right in the realm
of trust, surrender and lettinggo, right?
Yeah.
What do you think has helped youthe most to move into that from
being that over functioningformer version of yourself that
really gripped a lot because youdidn't trust into moving into
what I've seen you do over thepast few years, which is
actively practicing how tosettle and let go.
(20:06):
And even especially when we goback to how we function
differently, you are veryextroverted.
You're very motion based.
You're doing Yeah.
(20:44):
We talked about it afterwards,and I remember you saying that
Shavasana was the hardest partfor you, was like the surrender.
SPEAKER_01 (20:51):
Yeah, 100%, that, especially in the first year or
two of my recovery period.
I mean, I've told you this storya number of times, but I think
it's worth saying is that rightout of rehab here at the
(21:14):
foundry, I went back toIndianapolis and I volunteered
at a yoga studio.
And I would sit in shavasana andI had to be there a few classes
a week.
And especially early in themorning, I was sitting in
shavasana and I would just like,I mean, I would audibly bang my
(21:35):
hand because I...
I couldn't sit still and it wasso frustrating.
And it was so, so frustrating.
And I had to learn how to sitstill.
I had to learn how to be okaywith myself.
And that is such an acutephysical manifestation of
(21:55):
uncomfortability.
And I mean, it still gets me tothis day because I think of
myself and I think of how...
Sorry, my glasses are a littlewonky.
I think of how...
I watch people get up beforeShavasana now.
And I mean, I, I literally,sometimes if I have someone I'm
close to and I see them do that,I'm like, why'd you do that?
(22:16):
Like, you're not able to sitstill.
That might be a littleprojecting, but whatever.
Um, and one of the things thatI, I really actively practice,
um, is, um, Sometimes I'll gointo a class, especially a hot
power class, and just...
(22:40):
either sit out a number of posesor sit out one out of a sequence
of three and just sit therewhile everybody else around me
is moving and try to stay asstill as possible not in sleep I
wear my eyes open I'm lookingforward and stillness while the
rest of the world around me ismoving and I was inspired from
(23:03):
that through a fellow yogi whocame into a class and sat there
the whole class and I was justblown away I was blown away she
didn't move a lick she after theclass I was like what did you do
what did you do that whole thingshe's like I needed to rest and
I was like so beautiful so Ithink how I how I switched that
(23:25):
off to get back to your questionwas that I started becoming
comfortable with myself Istarted becoming comfortable in
my own skin and And that hastaken and is taking a long time.
I mean, Costa Rica has helped.
SPEAKER_00 (23:42):
I like that you said is taking though, that like this
is a thing.
SPEAKER_01 (23:47):
Well, this, you know, what is, I mean,
especially as a man, a lot ofthe times as a human, as an
American, my value oftentimes isplaced upon my productivity.
SPEAKER_00 (24:00):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (24:01):
And it is, rest is resistance.
I think we hear that a decentamount now.
And it's so true.
And I started hearing thatphrase a few years ago, four
years ago.
And it is a practice that Icontinually try to embody.
Because it is.
It's wild when someone comes upto you and you say, hey, how you
(24:25):
been?
All busy.
I've been busy.
I've been busy.
And that is what they're doingor what we're taught and they're
consciously or subconsciouslydoing.
He's saying, I am of value.
I am contributing toproductivity.
Therefore, look at me and I amworthy.
(24:46):
I'm not saying that that's 100%.
I'm not talking about black andwhite in this.
But what I am saying is that itdoesn't have to be the first
thing.
And I practice trying to say,you know, I've been hanging out
and sometimes I'm like, I'vebeen busy because I've been
busy.
But other times, you know, whenthey say that and I was with
(25:06):
them, the friend's dad back inCincinnati.
If he sees this, he's going toremember.
And his dad's a businessman.
He's a developer and this, that,the other.
Great guy.
Love him to death.
We were at their lake house andjust the three of us sitting in.
And I go, how you been?
He goes, oh, busy, busy.
He goes, how you been?
What have you been up?
I've been chilling, trying towork as little as possible.
(25:29):
You know, which is, you know, I,you know, I'm even trying to
justify it now, right?
But the, I mean, he was He'sjust like, what you got going
on?
Yeah.
You can tell he was taken aback.
Like, what do you mean?
You should be busy.
SPEAKER_00 (25:46):
Well, and that I remember seeing this a couple of
years ago somewhere online.
And it was, I think, a Facebookfriend or something.
And it was somebody postingabout and they tagged someone I
knew in the post.
And it was about how she wassuch a great mom.
And it was essentially the supermom.
Oh, because she does this, thisand this.
She's always at sports.
(26:06):
whatever.
She's always got Gatorade forall the kids.
And then she teaches.
And then she would like, it wasall about how much she does out
in the world.
And they were applauding that,which the intention was, it was
meant to be complimentary.
But what it's really doing islike shoving.
And I also happen to know thisperson and she was exhausted.
Yeah.
(26:27):
And burnt out.
Yeah.
And like on the verge of tears.
And that's what's like, they'recheerleading, right?
That that's where the value in awoman or a mom comes from.
is how much she can do for herkids and her community and that
was it was a high five rightwhich is it's the problems the
amount of problems wrong withthat are you know a lot but
SPEAKER_01 (26:48):
yeah I mean it is it's so like and what happens
when mom gets sick
SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
yeah
SPEAKER_01 (26:54):
dad gets fired yeah or gets injured
SPEAKER_00 (26:59):
yeah
SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
you know I twisted my ankle and okay and then let's
help them how do we get themback Oh, my God.
(27:36):
is prenatal, you know, pregnancycare before, during and after
and Western society and how weTry to yank the baby out and get
everybody back to work,basically.
(28:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:48):
Yeah.
Or even the thing I've heardoften in the culture of women
after pregnancy is the getting–how do I get my body back?
And it's like you don't.
And I don't mean that in a meanway.
I mean your body changes throughthat experience.
So whatever happens, like– Imean, it's a new version of it.
SPEAKER_01 (29:35):
What's the end goal?
Right.
(29:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:05):
Yeah.
Well, and even, you know, wewere talking earlier about some
of our differences.
And one of the things that Ithink people misconstrue a lot
is extroversion versusintroversion.
Right.
And I think sort of societallythat's misconstrued as being
outgoing or being shy, which isnot true.
Right.
The source of those words andhow they function is in energy,
where you get energy from.
(30:26):
Right.
And so even so yesterday orwhatever, a couple of days ago,
I was helping with the Fourth ofJuly stuff downtown.
And I am an introvert, whichmeans Yeah.
(31:05):
And I'm like, I want to punchpeople and go home.
And so I learned again throughbeing an adult and being
empathic that I feel people alot, that I take that on even
though I don't mean to and howto manage that better so that I
can function in those systems.
Whereas someone who isextroverted will often gain
energy from being around peopleand it will fuel them and they
have a little bit more of thatthan I do.
(31:26):
Right.
And so where I was going withthis is the other day I was
helping with the Fourth of Julystuff downtown and we started at
like 730 in the morning.
And I am in output mode and it'shot.
It's like 95 in Nashville,right?
And it's not, you're not buyingan ocean.
There's no breeze.
And so we're doing stuff.
Yeah, we're doing stuff all daylong.
(31:46):
And it got to be like twoo'clock and I volunteered for
the day.
And it got to be like twoo'clock and we were done with
all the setup.
We're just hanging out talkingto people at this point.
And I had just met some of thesepeople and I turned to the guy
next to me and I was like, I'mgoing to go home.
And he just looks at me and Iwas like, I'll be back.
I'll be back in like threehours, but I need a break.
And I just said, I explainedwhat I just said to you and I
said if I don't do this if Ikeep trying to push through by
(32:09):
like 6 o'clock I'm going tocrash and I'm going to be an
ugly version of me and I'm notgoing to stay for the fireworks
or stay for anything for therest of the night because I will
have crossed that line and thenI'll just leave for the night
and I won't care at all and thenI'll be mad later that I missed
the whole point of why I wasthere and so we were talking
about it and he's like I getlike that too and so I was like
(32:30):
okay well I'm going to go homeand he said I think I'm going to
push through no he said I'mgoing to push through.
And I said, OK.
So I came home.
I decompressed.
I just chilled out.
I ate some food, airconditioning, whatnot.
And then it was like 5.30, Ithink.
And I called a Lyft to get backover there.
And I got a text from him rightas I was getting in the Lyft.
(32:54):
And he was like, I should havelistened to you.
I'm so wiped.
And he's like, I'm going to gotry to take a nap on the lawn
over there.
But I'm really having a hardtime.
And I just laughed.
But I also, I've been there andthat's why I do this now and I
manage it better because I havenot listened to that so many
times that I know how it'll gofor me but still that thing of
(33:14):
like I should be here I shouldstay because I volunteered for
the whole day it's like first ofall I'm a volunteer I didn't
have to do this at all we didall the hard part and this other
stuff isn't till later you don'tneed me right now you know and
but to honor that in the midstand they all looked at me like
what do you mean you're goinghome right nobody was mad I just
kind of I just said you know I'mgonna go take a break it's hot
(33:35):
and I'll be And they were like,oh, okay.
But it was a moment of like, ifyou don't feel permission to do
that yourself, you'll questionwhen other people do it too.
SPEAKER_01 (33:44):
And then when somebody does it, you give
others permission.
That's beautiful.
And it's something that came upfor me.
And again, I think we'recontinually diving deeper into
the accessibility of autonomy,which is also boundaries.
I have autonomy.
(34:05):
Yeah.
Similar situation, I was in aBuddhist retreat where I was
volunteering for the week backin May.
And It was– they reallyintegrated boundaries as
practice in Zen Buddhism.
It's at the Crestone Retreatdown there.
(34:26):
And the abbot was like, okay,before you go off and do your
task for the day, you're goingto clean this.
I'm going to give you somethingto clean for 10 minutes.
UNKNOWN (34:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (34:40):
And you don't have to say, I'm going to start and
finish this certain cleaningprocess in 10 minutes, so I have
to navigate what I can clean in10 minutes.
No, you have a whole house.
In my case, it was the wholehouse, big hallway to clean, but
I only had 10 minutes.
(35:03):
When that 10 minutes is up,stop.
It doesn't matter where you are.
It doesn't matter that youdidn't finish.
Stop.
And then go on and go to yourother task.
And at the end of the day, we'redone at work at, you know,
whatever it was, 3.30.
Stop.
Like, find a stopping point.
The task does not have to becompletely done.
(35:24):
And if you need to rest, rest.
You know, you have permission torest.
And it was this...
Even though you said you wererunning out of energy, I think
in your example, what I'mhearing is that you're trying to
create more abundance of yourenergy for what you wish to
(35:46):
spend that energy on.
SPEAKER_00 (35:47):
Yes, yes, exactly.
So
SPEAKER_01 (35:49):
in order to do that, you're not operating from
scarcity saying, oh, I'm tiredof this.
Like, hey, no, I want moreenergy for later.
I know that that is my intendedgoal is to see the fireworks, to
be present, and to be fullymyself for the space that I can
be.
So therefore, I need to takerest.
(36:10):
And I'm going to honor that.
And, you know, you don't seethat too often people burn, I
mean, burnout, right?
SPEAKER_00 (36:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:18):
overextending yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (36:19):
And I was in, I spent, you know, I have my
second degree is in teaching, Ispent a little bit of time in
the teaching system.
And I will not forget this,because it was just one of the
years that I was there, like youhad certain amount of days that
you can take off.
They're given to you, whatever.
And if you don't use them, theywill roll over.
Right.
So it is common in teaching forteachers to not use those days
(36:44):
to collect them because thenthey keep them.
And if you're going to be ateacher for many years, that
adds up to a year or so orwhatever off of retirement.
Right.
So you can retire a year earlyor however much time that you
have saved.
Right.
You know, I have a this is I getall feisty about this, but I
won't do that.
I mean,
SPEAKER_01 (37:01):
I'm getting feisty just thinking about it.
Anyway, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (37:03):
But at the time I was in a school and I was very
intent on taking all of my daysbecause I use them to reset.
I need a break.
I'm a little burnt out.
I'm whatever.
I wasn't taking big trips.
I was just taking like I'm goingto take this Wednesday off to
break up my week.
But there was a subtle likenon-spoken about response from
(37:30):
other teachers whenever I said Iwas taking a day off.
And I'm trying to explain itbecause it's not overt, right?
They're not like directly sayingthings, but there would be
things like, oh, you're takingthe other day off.
That must be nice.
Yeah.
And I'm like, you have the samedays that I have, right?
But it's like sort of frownedupon by people who don't feel
(37:53):
like they have the freedom to dothat or choose not to do that.
They have the same days that Ihave.
In fact, many of them had manymore.
But if the culture is such thatthere's sort of a subtle
implication that you're notworking as hard or you're like
that that's the way we do thingshere and you're breaking that
culture or going against it itis frowned upon and like i said
(38:15):
the way of which it happens wasvery subtly like slid into
conversations until i
SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
actually perhaps
SPEAKER_00 (38:22):
yeah yes very much so and i remember at one point i
happened to be in the hallwayand i saw these other two
teachers who had been there formany years and i just heard them
talking to each other duringlike a passing period and they
were talking about heat It was aguy, it was a man and a woman.
And he was talking about howmany days he had left before
retirement because of how manydays he'd saved up.
(38:42):
And she was in agreement and inher own version of how many days
they, not competing, but like,oh, I have this many and I have
that many.
And I remember thinking, like,there's certain moments where I
make choices and I remember thatlike across my life.
And I just remember thinking, Iwill never do that ever.
And I get it.
I understand why people do thatand what the mindset is.
(39:03):
It's just not Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:27):
There's so much to unpack there because it is, I
mean, I think teachers,nonprofit where we worked in
together, nonprofit, I mean,hospitality.
SPEAKER_00 (39:36):
Any like service industry where you're caring is
part of your job and empathy andgiving and nurturing or
whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (39:45):
It's weaponized and martyrdom becomes the currency
of value.
SPEAKER_00 (39:52):
Oh, that was good.
SPEAKER_01 (39:53):
Where just like you are, oh my God, so-and-so has so
many organizations and does somuch.
And I can't tell you how manytimes I've met people that are
in recovery and the nonprofitwork.
I grew up, my mother was ateacher.
She had pretty good boundariesthen.
But other teachers that I'veknown, I mean, I work still in
(40:18):
hospitality in the mental healthspace.
Chefs, I mean, one of thehighest suicide rates in any
industry is among chefs.
Where...
oh, they're here when the placeopens, they're here when the
place closed, they don't take aday off and it's looked upon as
this celebratory thing.
But what's behind that, right?
(40:40):
What's their family life like?
What's their health like?
What's their physical health,mental health?
How are they abusing substances?
Is their partner happy?
Are their children happy?
I mean, you see it in the mentalhealth space in psychiatrists
and therapists and things likethat.
How often do they work so hardat getting the outside world to
(41:04):
approve of them while theirfamily or their own mental
health deteriorates?
And specifically to reflect uponlike the teachers, just the
hardest working, most, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (41:20):
They work so hard.
SPEAKER_01 (41:22):
They work so hard and it's because they care so
much.
And people, and how many financebros do you know that don't do
shit, just move money aroundand, you know, make millions and
millions of dollars.
Some of them in that time aswell, I do know some people that
work in finance that havesacrificed in the same way where
(41:44):
they don't spend time with theirfamilies, lawyers, things like
that.
But they get paid, right?
Here's a question.
What do you think is worth more,time or money?
SPEAKER_00 (41:59):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (42:29):
Yeah, there's a, I mean, it is, it's, I, like you,
actually rest nowadays, which Ididn't used to.
Central America has taught mesome deep, deep lessons along
with plant medicine, which isanother reason why I've really
come to view time as it'svaluable, but it's also infinite
(42:50):
for me.
So there's no rush, right?
Because when time is sovaluable, I can look at it in
this scarcity mindset.
SPEAKER_00 (42:59):
I
SPEAKER_01 (43:00):
only have so much time and we'll go back to I need
to control this thing because Ionly have so much time I need to
have this person do what I wantthem to do because I only have
so much time rather when time isseen as precious and abundance
(43:21):
it's still because if it's inabundance it is so precious then
it will happen when it needs tohappen for most things not
everything sometimes you're likeI need to get to the store I you
know I'm not going to show up 15minutes late or an hour late
that's just disrespect but whenI'm trying to get something done
it is going to happen when it'sgoing to happen and it seems to
(43:44):
fall in place when it needs tofall in place and that is
Complicated.
SPEAKER_00 (43:51):
Yeah.
How has that worked for you withworking still in the, like,
restaurant industry, but in theangle that you're working now?
I
SPEAKER_01 (44:01):
mean, I see, like, I was actually working at a
restaurant a couple years agohere in Steamboat, and the owner
said to me, and I hear it a lotnow because it's stuck, slow is
smooth, smooth is fast.
Yes.
UNKNOWN (44:17):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (44:18):
Yes.
And it feels like when I'mrushing, when I'm in the weeds,
another, I saw another, a friendof mine said the other day, he
learned from anotherrestaurateur here, that being in
the weeds is just perspective.
You know, you're not in theweeds if you don't think you
are.
Like, it's just all perspective.
(44:38):
So I think if you're, you know,why am I in the weeds?
Let's take that example.
Why am I in the weeds?
Why am I behind on tickets ifI'm a chef?
Why am I...
Why am I on a two-hour wait?
It's because I tried to pleaseeverybody.
I tried to say, oh, yes, we'llget you in.
(44:59):
And as a customer, I'd rathersomeone say, it's going to be an
hour.
Are you willing to wait an hour?
And then it's 45 minutes.
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (45:10):
Then it's going to, oh, you know, I want you to
stay.
I really need you here.
I want your business.
It's only going to be fiveminutes.
I'm going to make it happen.
Mm-hmm.
And then it's 45 minutes.
And then I'm like, well, if youjust would have told me it would
have been 45 minutes, I wouldhave been fine.
Then I could have made thechoice around whether it was
valuable for me to stay.
(45:30):
And then I'm happy, right?
I'm happy if you sat me in 45minutes and you said it was
going to be an hour.
I'm unhappy if you told me itwas going to be five and it ends
up being 15.
And even though the 15 is ashorter time than the 45, my
perspective is that you don'thave boundaries.
is that
SPEAKER_02 (45:50):
yes
SPEAKER_01 (45:51):
you don't understand yeah you're just you're just
trying to you're not beinghonest with yourself or with me
and i mean i think that's atangible hard example of
something i've experienced ofhow to really piss people off is
to tell them you can dosomething when you can't yeah
and even though i really love toget you sat in five minutes
(46:12):
believe me but i can't i'd loveto yeah
SPEAKER_00 (46:17):
and i used to talk about this when i i would talk
to hosts in the restaurant thatI worked at, like pick a
restaurant because I would talkabout this a lot, because they
would seat people.
And if the server is busy oroverloaded at that point in
time, the people then have towait at the table.
And that waiting, you just toldthem to wait at the door for
five minutes.
(46:38):
Waiting at the door for fiveminutes is not equivalent to
waiting at the table fiveminutes.
It's a very differentexperience.
Waiting at the door is no bigdeal.
Everybody's like, cool, fiveminutes.
I'm going to make a
SPEAKER_01 (46:49):
call.
I'm going to go look at Yeah,sure.
We're
SPEAKER_00 (46:51):
talking about five minutes.
But if you seat someone and theguests are sitting at a table
waiting for a server for fiveminutes before they see anyone,
that feels like an eternity.
And so I was like, it's inperspective and how you handle
the situation.
They're not equal, right?
But training and around thefunctionality of how we think
about that.
I'm a big proponent just how Ido anything is can I
(47:15):
under-promise and over-deliver?
SPEAKER_01 (47:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:18):
Freaking, like I live my life on it.
that all the time what can I andI will I repeatedly do that and
I want to do that but I tryreally hard to commit like
commitment to me is veryimportant I try to be very clear
people ask me to do stuff allthe time I try to be very clear
what is the ask because I'vesaid this before I've said this
to you I remember specificallyyou asked me to do something and
(47:41):
I was in a hurry and whateverand I just said yes and then I
remember calling you later andbeing like hey I know that I
said yes to that I was flusteredand I would like to know what
are like what's the ask what areyou actually asking of me so I
can think about it and decidewhether I can give it to you or
not because otherwise we justsay yes because we want to make
(48:01):
someone happy or we want towhatever and then I'm behind and
I'm resentful
SPEAKER_01 (48:06):
yeah and I'm not going to do what you
SPEAKER_00 (48:09):
ask me to
SPEAKER_01 (48:09):
do a good job no or even yeah I'm either not going
to do it all or I'm not going todo a good job of doing
SPEAKER_00 (48:15):
it yeah that was a big
SPEAKER_01 (48:16):
that was a big um part of my of last year i i and
it also when you talk to a hostlike that and you're talking
about sitting tables you have aprecedent so then you have an
example so that when the nexthost comes in they know because
you set a boundary instead ofstating from the get-go we're
(48:38):
you know we're gonna likedominoes you know for years 30
minutes or less 30 minutes orless now you're lucky if you get
it in an hour but you know it islike you set a precedent and you
and you know what yourcapabilities are.
So with a host, hey, it's goingto fluctuate.
It's going to change.
If it's 4th of July weekend, ourwait's most likely going to be
(48:59):
on an hour for most of theweekend.
And when I did, when I workedthe plant medicine retreat last
winter, I had no precedent.
I had no understanding of what Ishould feel like, what the base
level was of what I should bedoing.
And I had to figure that out formyself.
And I had to listen to my body Ihad to listen to my spirit I had
(49:24):
to listen to the capabilities ofof myself and then when I felt
that when I felt like I wasgetting stressed I had to use
all those other times where I'dset boundaries or I was able to
speak up for myself and say I'mnot I don't feel like this is
right I don't feel like my bodyor my spirit can handle this
(49:45):
anymore and I need to take abreak and even though I didn't I
my precedent was blank.
I didn't know.
I thought I was doing a bad job.
I sat and I sat as a doorman forover 30 ceremonies in the rainy
season in like three months,which then I started speaking
up.
I remember when someone actuallycame up to me, one of the
(50:06):
facilitators and I'm sittingthere and he was just like, and
I knew they were all exhaustedtoo.
And he was just like, Hey man,are you all right?
And that's all, honestly, all ittook.
And I was just like, No, I'mnot.
I'm not all right.
And it really, like, it tooksomebody penetrating that hard
shell that I had of commitment,of expectations, and of not
(50:31):
knowing to say, hey, like, howactually, as we say often, like,
how are you really, right?
To say to me, when Robert saidthat to me, how are you really?
It wasn't like, hey, how areyou?
It was like, how are you?
And it sunk and it hit me.
And it really, I can picture itnow, it hit me to the core of
(50:53):
like, it was almost like anawakening of like, I'm not well,
and I need help.
And then having boundaries andhaving practice, I was able to
say, and this is the way that Ineed help.
And I reached out in a way thatI knew how to reach out.
And then when I started reachingout, you know, everybody around
me and the organization said,oh, yeah, like, you shouldn't be
(51:16):
doing that.
This was out of the realm ofnormalcy.
We'll see.
And we're, we, you know, we'regoing to correct that and let's,
let's shift instead of, insteadof which in the past.
If I have a relationship,whether it's with a job or with
a lover or with family, maybenot recently in the past couple
(51:38):
of years, but in the past, Iwould hit my breaking point and
then it would be black or white.
I'm either in or I'm out, right?
Something's wrong, I'm either inor I'm out.
Instead, now I'm able to say,this part of this is not feeling
good.
I don't even have to say it'swrong.
It doesn't feel like this is inline with what I'm capable of.
(51:59):
Let's figure out a way to makethis relationship work for both
of us, whether it's work,whether it's romantic, and shift
it so that it feels good forboth of us and see if that is
something that we can come toterms on.
And with the Ayahuasca RetreatCenter, I was able to do that
without resentment.
And I was able to, you know, Istarted teaching yoga more.
(52:22):
I started doing pickups withthem.
And I sat in lesson ceremony.
And then, you know, I was ableto recover physically.
And so I really, you know, thatwas just last winter.
And I probably had it been twowinters ago or three winters ago
or, you know, 10 years ago.
(52:43):
It would have driven me into areally dark space.
UNKNOWN (52:47):
Mm hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (52:48):
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
(53:18):
It's really nice.
It's a really beautiful thing tobe able to navigate that gray
space Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (53:32):
Yeah.
(53:54):
Yeah.
In those conversations, it wasreally beautiful because I think
it's just a space to talk aboutthings that you don't get to
talk about, right?
But I noticed at one point I wasin a couple meetings and people
were, you know, not doing greaton that scale.
And I would come in and likehave a really good day.
And then I almost feel like Ican't celebrate, right?
Because the sort of the setup isto talk about things that are
(54:18):
hard, which is beautiful.
But then I was like, am I toohappy for, you know, like,
should I tone it down?
Like the celebration of how goodmy life's gotten it so that I'm
on the same page as everyone andso it took me a little while to
practice and that this just inmy head that's not you know they
didn't set that up that's justin my head of like
SPEAKER_01 (54:35):
oh yeah
SPEAKER_00 (54:36):
that I can't and that's it that's a childhood
thing for me actually which isthat like I can't shine too much
I have to dim it because I don'twant to make anyone else feel
SPEAKER_01 (54:46):
bad then I better be upset too I better I better tone
my mood down because thehousehold is in disarray
SPEAKER_00 (54:56):
Yeah, well, and I don't mind was like, I watched
different people struggling withthings.
And so I didn't want to add tothe struggle.
So I'm going to just be in thein the corner metaphorically of
like, let me take up as littleroom as possible.
So I don't.
And then I'm always like, Oh,I'm good.
I'm good.
You know, like, whatever.
So I'm sort of like, I'm good,but I'm not great.
But I'm just out of the way.
SPEAKER_01 (55:16):
Yeah.
When you're like, reallybubbling inside, like, man, I'm
having a really good day.
SPEAKER_00 (55:21):
Yeah, but it's just I want to celebrate
SPEAKER_01 (55:24):
that.
But if someone else isn't, and Iwe do that often in chow.
I mean, there's, there's very,very often that, you know, a
couple of people will check inwell done.
And I mean, in all honesty, somereally, really, really heavy
stuff.
I mean, they're, they'reconfidential meetings.
We're not going to share what itis, but much like in, in
recovery.
And I think 12 step rooms do areally good job of that.
(55:46):
And chow is not a 12 step group.
It's not a recovery group, but Ithink modeling that someone can
be just getting out of jail orthey had, you know, Someone
passed away that same day and Igo into two 12 step rooms all
over the country, all over theworld.
And, you know, someone can checkin and say, my husband died of
(56:08):
an overdose yesterday.
Right.
And then you go down the lineand someone else can say, you
know, I got a new job today andI just had a baby and I just got
out of rehab and I'm celebratingthree years sober and for 30
days sober.
And and it could be held in thesame way.
space.
Yeah.
And I think that's reallyspecial about 12 Step.
(56:30):
And it's something that when yousaid earlier, I made myself
small.
I think that's a really strongreflection and a really good
lesson of being able to say Ican hold both at the same times
(56:51):
and allowing other people tohave grief And have compassion
for that grief, but not diveinto that with them.
SPEAKER_00 (57:00):
Yes.
Then that
SPEAKER_01 (57:01):
circles back around the boundaries.
SPEAKER_00 (57:04):
Yes.
And yet, that was great.
But full circle because we had,and again, I've had a lot of
training in my jobs over theyears.
But one of the examples I likedthe best.
Yes.
Oh, yes.
And your experience is betterthan
SPEAKER_02 (57:16):
training.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (57:17):
Yes.
And being in situations whereI'm having to practice all this
actively in real time.
Right.
But one of the best metaphors orexample that I examples I liked
of that of what you just said islike was in compassion fatigue
training right when we we wouldget I would get burnt out
especially like I can feelpeople and it has taken me years
to understand that even the wordempath like doesn't do it
(57:41):
justice like I literally canfeel them and I take it on and
sometimes don't even know it andI have had to learn how to
handle that so I function betterright but as a as a person when
you had when I had clients andthey are in very heavy very deep
very dark spaces and I'm inconversation around that how to
not take that on myself becauseit was depleting me because I
(58:04):
cared right and so to but anywaywhat the example was that it was
the boat it was like if you'reon a boat I can't remember
you'll have to help me with thisif you're on a boat if
SPEAKER_01 (58:14):
you're in a canoe and somebody's drowning and you
have a life preserver compassionis throwing them the life
preserver say here's a tool foryou to use if you decide that
you want to grab onto that it'sgoing to help you because
someone threw it for me one timebut empathy is jumping in trying
(58:37):
to grab them and they drag youdown with them and then you're
both in the water and thenyou're both in the water and
most likely you're going to havea hard time and I think that is
one of the hardest practices isthat is when you watch someone
drown and you do you know youwatch someone die I've watched
many people die yeah I'vewatched many people go back into
addiction.
(58:57):
I've watched many people go backinto just mental health
struggles or go back to a jobthey don't like or go back to a
relationship that's bad forthem.
SPEAKER_02 (59:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (59:07):
And there's the tools out there for them to do
it.
And I've done it myself.
Right.
But.
UNKNOWN (59:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (59:15):
I think that is the, it really plays into that whole
rare and well done.
Like I can be rare and you canbe well done and we can sit in
the same room and that's okay.
And if you're mad at me becauseI'm rare and you're well done,
or I'm mad at you because you'rerare and I'm well done, then
that's a deeper problem.
SPEAKER_00 (59:32):
One that, that like, I don't, it's not, I can't
rescue, fix and save.
SPEAKER_01 (59:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I haven't heard you say thatall, all those whole time, which
is a modern miracle.
I
SPEAKER_00 (59:44):
love it.
It's good.
I had to work on it so much.
I can't rescue, fix, and save.
And
SPEAKER_01 (59:49):
you have to reiterate it to people that you
care about when they're tryingto rescue, fix, and save others.
And that's seen as heartlessamong some groups, especially
groups that celebrate martyrdom.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:05):
Like, you should be working tirelessly and sacrifice
your life in order to fix theseindividuals or systems that are
failing.
And, you know, that's a largerconversation.
But I mean, it is like, youknow, we, I've said this in many
aspects, but I think it's alwaysworth saying is, especially in
(01:00:28):
teaching, in recovery, in mentalhealth, in a lot of areas that
you and I have seen a lot ofthese Yeah.
Yeah.
(01:00:53):
And if we don't get to those, itjust, and as we see, you know, I
don't, it's so hard.
As we see in a larger scale,more and more people are falling
into that river and more, andwe're trying to save more and
more.
And then just like the canoereference, we fall right in with
them.
And how many peer specialists orteachers or mental health
(01:01:17):
advocates relapse or ignoretheir own health or ignore their
relationships and their familyin order to help others or try
to change the symptoms at thesymptoms rather than at the
larger systems.
And then it's a big ask.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:33):
Right.
And there's no hero
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:34):
in it.
There's no hero in it, right?
There's no like, I, you know,helped Susie find a job and, you
know, she didn't, she didn'tkill herself this week.
And, and, you know, it's like,cool.
There's, there's 10 more peopledown the river, you
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:53):
know?
Yeah.
And it's like, I think, and Ithink you and I both function
this way kind of generally inwhatever we're doing.
I will speak for myself, but Ijust know you well enough to
know you do a lot of that too,which is I keep coming back to
me.
I keep taking care of me andtrying to work on me because the
more I do that and the more Ivoice it out loud, the more that
I think I hopefully give otherpeople permission to do the
(01:02:14):
same.
And I think that's how we teach,right?
Is by going out and being in theworld and being in a part of
that and creating impact andpicking at people along the way
and being like, hey, you can dothis too, right?
In whatever way.
No, oh no.
It's in the quiet conversations.
Yeah.
I mean,
SPEAKER_01 (01:02:31):
when I first got into recovery the first couple,
three years, it was like, here'swhat I'm doing.
Here's how I help somebody.
This is it.
Look at me.
And it is, it's much more subtleand you celebrate less pain
rather than you know it's notit's not like it's not you're
(01:02:54):
not celebrating winning you'rejust celebrating less pain which
is you can't quantify that andyou don't get awards for it
SPEAKER_00 (01:03:03):
no you don't get awards for it and there have
been times there have been timesthroughout that process where
I've said no to helping becauseit was actually detrimental to
me
SPEAKER_01 (01:03:13):
yeah right
SPEAKER_00 (01:03:14):
anyway
SPEAKER_01 (01:03:15):
I had someone I had someone say to me last summer
because I have a so boat youknow and we started off with a
real kick.
We have like, you know, we stillhave like 1,500 people.
It's just a little, it's like aforum for people to get
together.
But first we make t-shirts andwe do
SPEAKER_00 (01:03:30):
this.
I was wearing mine the otherday.
I
SPEAKER_01 (01:03:32):
have mine.
It's great.
You know, at some point it mayexpand into some other things.
I have some ideas, but it'swhere it's at now because I'm
exploring these other things.
But I had someone say to mebecause I had quit my health
partnership job and I hadsomeone say to me actually last
4th of July They go, I justthought you would have done more
(01:03:54):
with that.
Oh, like, and, and, you know, itwas like in a real, like, and I
was like, I mean, obviously itstill sticks with me.
It's a year later and it stillsticks with me because I, you
know, it's very hard to untrainyour mind of value of
productivity.
And it was someone in the, inthe nonprofit world.
(01:04:15):
And I was just like, I was like,I mean, I responded and like,
okay, yeah, appreciate that andI walked off you know but again
it is you know a year later itstill sticks with me
SPEAKER_02 (01:04:26):
and
SPEAKER_01 (01:04:28):
it sticks with me because it's a lesson in
allowing others to bedisappointed in you and I think
that is that for me is somethingthat I work with my men's group
now a lot is how do we allowothers to be disappointed with
us without trying to appeasethem to the detriment of
ourselves And if I'm stay, if Iknow, if I'm confident, if I'm
(01:04:52):
healthy, if I'm practicing, ifI'm doing all that I can and
someone's disappointed in me,that's really not my thing.
Like be disappointed in me.
And how do I handle that?
How do I allow them to bedisappointed and not let it
affect my day to day?
And I, and I, I really foundthat as a, as a stump, as a
(01:05:14):
starting off point or maybe evena midpoint in really practicing,
uh, Allowing people to haveexpectations of you that you
cannot and do not intend tomeet.
SPEAKER_00 (01:05:27):
Yes.
Well, I am so glad that you'rehere.
I could just sit and talk to youfor another six hours.
I
SPEAKER_01 (01:05:32):
think we got to one question.
Did you have three more?
Do you have another three hours?
No,
SPEAKER_00 (01:05:41):
but it's perfect.
And I appreciate you so much.
Thank you for spending time withme.
And I always like one of thereasons I have you here is not
just because I'm friends withyou and really life right it's
because I value your perspectiveon things and you challenge me
right when I come up againstsomething you'll be like hey
like are you sure about that andI value that so so appreciately
(01:06:02):
or so much so I appreciate thatbut thank you for being here
love you for spending time withme I love you too we'll talk
soon
SPEAKER_01 (01:06:08):
all right see you thanks bye
SPEAKER_00 (01:06:15):
bye
There are moments in life that split us open.
Quiet unravelings, suddenbreaks, or truths we didn't know
we needed until we had nochoice.
This podcast is about thosemoments.
It's about the turning pointsthat change us.
The things I wish someone hadtold me that I only understand
in looking back.
Come on in.
You belong here.
(00:20):
And we're going to talk aboutall of it.
I'm your host, Natanya, and thisis What I Didn't Know.
Before we begin a quick note,this podcast explores themes
such as mental health,addiction, trauma, and recovery.
While the stories here arehonest and heartfelt, they're
not a substitute forprofessional advice, therapy, or
(00:41):
medical treatment.
Please listen with care andpause anytime you need to take
whatever resonates for you andleave the rest.
All right.
So today, before you meet Chris,a quick story.
When I lived in Colorado, therewas a period of time when I was
in the hospital and I'm in thehospital in Colorado.
My mom still lives in Illinois.
(01:01):
And so a few months after I hadgotten out, we were on the phone
and she was talking to me andshe said, you know, while you
were in the hospital, I didn'tpray for, you know, you to just
get better because you might'veneeded to go through what you
were going through as part ofyour journey?
(01:22):
She said, so instead, I justprayed that you'd meet the right
people.
And after I got out of thehospital, I decided that I was
going to quit drinking.
And approximately three weekslater, Chris Ray was the first
person that I met in recovery.
And we spent, I don't know,roughly two, two and a half
(01:43):
years working together at anonprofit in recovery.
And he's one of my favoritehumans and still a very good
friend of mine to this day.
So I just wanted to give youthat little lowdown before you
get to meet him.
And I'm just so excited and Ihope you enjoy the show.
(02:06):
Hi.
Hey.
I'm so excited you're here,friend.
I haven't seen you in, what,when was the last time I saw
you?
Last fall.
SPEAKER_01 (02:13):
Not quite a year.
Last fall.
SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (02:17):
But it was short and brief because you had to run
away.
I
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
didn't have to run away.
Something about
SPEAKER_01 (02:21):
work, responsibilities.
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
So I want to talk to you about, I want to start with
my favorite topic, which you'realso great at.
Can you guess what it is that weboth had to work at so much?
Boundaries?
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (02:36):
Yeah, is that
SPEAKER_00 (02:37):
it?
I love that you know
SPEAKER_01 (02:40):
that.
I'm good at it in some ways, andI'm terrible at it in other
ways, but it's always a work inprogress.
SPEAKER_00 (02:46):
Well, what do you think, where did it used to be
for you before you even startedworking on it?
Just like, yeah, go
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
ahead.
So where it used to be for mewas, I mean, a long time ago, it
was...
I would do anything andeverything to be accepted and to
please and to my own detriment.
And that was putting myself inlegal risk, at my health at
risk, my financial self at risk,my all the stuff, you know, to
(03:22):
be the person who was acceptedand loved and cared for and then
I got into recovery because Ifinally said I've drained myself
down enough to a point that I'mspiritually financially
(03:43):
physically bankrupt and then Ihad to rebuild it you know and
then I had to learn actuallywhat boundaries are so the first
couple years of recovery was letme show you anything and
everything so that you canaccept this new version of me.
(04:06):
Let me bend over backwards.
Let me allow, you know, let meanswer my phone at two in the
morning because you want to talkabout how you want to quit
drinking.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (04:19):
that was one that I remember specifically was
because when we worked together,you had gone And I remember
talking to you at one point andpeople, because clients either
weren't respecting that orweren't listening, would still
(04:40):
call and text anyway.
And at the time you wereresponding to say, I'm not
available.
SPEAKER_02 (04:48):
And
SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
we, I remember the conversation we talked about
that, how the response, like youwere responding to that.
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (05:24):
I set like an away email on my work, on my work
email.
Like, oh, hey, I'm going to begone for such and such time.
I remember there's a, there's aguy, well, JK, that sent his, I
mean, he has a flip phone andthen he would set his, he would
set his email and he still, it'slike something super funny.
(05:45):
Like, and that was great.
And then I started working withChow and I remember Aaron, our
CEO, I think still, still hasthis, kind of she's altered it a
little bit but it was the firsttime I saw it it said something
to the effect of I will answeryour email in two to three days
and that's how I operate I meanit was something to that effect
(06:09):
but just being like not everyform of communication is urgent
communication
SPEAKER_00 (06:17):
yeah go ahead
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
well and I think that that also that stems from
me wanting to control everythingand know the outcome on my end.
SPEAKER_00 (06:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:32):
The boundaries are a safety thing.
Like I need to know.
So if I need to know, then youprobably also need to know.
So I'm going to make you feelsafe by giving you access and
letting you know, but not givingany space for the unknown.
And I think that's a reallydisservice, not only to myself,
(06:54):
but to everybody else.
And it doesn't allow trust.
Yeah, I like that.
So really just that kind of, Imean, and it's the same thing.
Like if, if I, if I want ananswer to something, I used to
have to be like, well, I need toknow right away.
Like why, why is it like rude?
I need to know what's going on.
(07:15):
Are you mad at me?
What can I do to fix itimmediately?
Rather than saying, you know, Ithink, I think a lot of what
I've been working on is, youknow, if, if you need something
for me and I can't do it, like Ijust can't do it.
I don't need to bend overbackwards.
I might be able to direct you tosomebody that can.
(07:36):
But people don't like that,especially people in recovery.
People that don't have anyboundaries don't like
boundaries.
SPEAKER_00 (07:42):
Yes.
I love that saying.
It's one of my favorites.
And it reminded me, when youwere talking about that, it
reminded me of a, it was atraining that I had taken with
Kate.
And I think it was CCARtraining.
And it was, and we did, therewas a whole section on crises.
And it was like 10 differentsummary examples of situations.
And we had to go through anddetermine what a crisis was and
(08:05):
what wasn't a crisis.
And I mean, we do it allindividually.
And then we kind of got in teamsand talked about it, whatever.
And I mean, they're alldifferent types of situations.
Someone's, you know, their rentis late or all these different
things that that can put peopleinto states of stress.
And the answer, like at the end,when we got to the final thing
(08:25):
was that none of them werecrises.
UNKNOWN (08:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:29):
None of them.
Because what people getoverwhelmed about or stressed
out or frustrated or what putsthem in a heightened state of
anxiety is many things that arenot actually a crisis.
And so especially when you work
SPEAKER_01 (08:42):
in that world.
secure.
really less things are crisisright less things less things
(09:05):
constitute a crisis um i had myeyes here because i'm on my
phone and this feels a lotbetter and i can see you
SPEAKER_00 (09:14):
my glasses are somewhere i actually put them on
and we will match
SPEAKER_01 (09:17):
yeah i noticed last night i was at a restaurant i
couldn't see the menu um so yeahi mean and i think that's just i
mean a great example of crisisand boundaries because i also
not only did i not have youknow, I mean, it just goes,
boundaries are so back andforth.
Like, I mean, I was driving downthe pass on Friday and I didn't
(09:38):
get such on you and I drive itoff the pass and my engine blew
up, man, that sucks.
Right.
It's awful.
It's, it's just, you know, it iswhat it is.
It's it, I, I, I was actuallyliterally saying, Oh, this car's
running great.
I just, you know, stuff.
And then, you know, I got intoit, whatever engine blew up and
(09:59):
I didn't like start callingeverybody and be like, Oh my
God, you know, this is awful.
This is, this happened to me,blah, blah, blah.
No, I said, all right, well,what do I do next?
Uh, this, I'm in a safe spot.
This isn't necessarily a crisis.
A tow truck driver pulled upbehind me.
(10:19):
I was able to talk to myinsurance.
I was able to kind of, you know,figure out a way to get the car
to Denver.
It's a holiday weekend.
Nobody's going to answer.
I still don't, nobody has talkedto me about it because they
don't come into the shop on onMonday, but I was just like, I'm
going to bring it down there.
I don't need to know what'sgoing to happen.
I'm able to step into theunknown and just let this be.
(10:42):
So I'm not going to try to findsome shop that's open on a
Friday or a holiday weekend.
I'm not going to do all thesethings that just go down the
line and see what I can put infront of the other.
And that is allowing...
The boundaries of what'spossible for me, what the
universe has allowed me to bein, like some friends couldn't
(11:06):
come and pick me up.
They have boundaries.
I'm not going to be like, well,what do I do?
I just call down the line.
Much like in recovery, I'mhaving a bad weekend.
I need to talk to somebody.
I'm having a craving.
I need to talk to somebody.
If my sponsor doesn't answer orif my best friend doesn't
answer, what do I do?
(11:26):
I don't just keep calling themback.
SPEAKER_02 (11:29):
I
SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
just go down the line and say well they're doing
something.
Maybe somebody is available.
And take
SPEAKER_00 (11:36):
that next step.
(12:06):
Mm-hmm.
(12:36):
Yeah.
I mean, you didn't do that
SPEAKER_01 (12:40):
overnight.
(13:06):
that you want the best for, youknow, family, things like that.
It's, it's really tough.
when you really just want thebest for them.
And you really, you're justtrying to shake them and show
them that, you know, this is notthe way.
Don't, people please.
But that, what I always say withpeople, and you and I have
(13:28):
practiced this together, and Iremember saying this to each
other a number of times, was,hey, if you need to practice,
practice on me.
I'm a good note.
You know, especially goodfriends.
You know, I may actually want toreally stretch my schedule, or I
may want to actually dosomething something that is very
very inconvenient for me but yousaid you need help and i might
(13:53):
just practice with you say heyyou know what maybe you should
find somebody else because thenthat's helping me build a muscle
where it's something that i likeit's not necessarily that i
can't do it it's not like i'm atthe end of my rope i can't do it
it's just it's a littleinconvenient and why don't i
give you the opportunity toreach outside of your of of this
(14:14):
and see if somebody else canhelp you.
And, and, you know, that's,that's, that's practicing for
me, building a muscle for when Iam at the end of my rope, or if
I am talking to somebody that Idon't feel comfortable with
boundaries or I don't want tohave boundaries with, because I,
I desperately still want them tobe in my life or I want them to
show up in a certain way.
(14:35):
And I think that's, that's areally valuable part of
friendship for me is, is when Ican practice that or when people
practice that with me.
SPEAKER_03 (14:45):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (14:45):
you know i didn't know i'll go back to the car
again i had somebody say no andi wasn't like i wasn't like hey
but you know you know but yousaid you do do anything you said
you said call me if you needanything i'm calling and i need
something
SPEAKER_00 (15:00):
yeah okay you're
SPEAKER_01 (15:02):
busy i'm gonna go down the line
SPEAKER_00 (15:03):
yeah well and even i love because there's there's big
things and there's little thingslike at one point like we
function it's one of my favoritethings about you specifically is
that you and i have some thingsthat are very very similar in
common that we had to work onand functionally we are so
different right and like one ofthe things that um you are more
of a night owl than i am rightand i remember well maybe that
(15:26):
was well i don't go
SPEAKER_01 (15:27):
to bed at 8 30 i think that's probably it i go to
bed at midnight and i wake up atsix
SPEAKER_00 (15:32):
yeah that's a night owl yeah but there was it was a
work thing at one point and youhad called me and it was like
nine o'clock at night to talkabout i think a client that
called you and it was but it'sthe point of practicing because
i was on comfortable because Icare about you and I want you to
know that I support you that Isupport you at work that you
(15:52):
know whatever and I want you toknow that I'm here for you and
it's past my bedtime right solike how do you say that 6
SPEAKER_01 (15:59):
30 p.m
SPEAKER_00 (16:04):
how do you like it but to be able to like vocalize
that and to honor that like Iwant you to like to to transmit
the fact that I care about youand I care about this topic and
it's important and in the futureif it's past 8 30 don't call me
about work
SPEAKER_02 (16:21):
yeah
SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
it was a it wasn't even that you called me it was
about work like for me at thattime work ended yeah you know 5
5 30 unless we had an event andso and it dragged me into then
I'm done talking to you at 9 30and I can't decompress
SPEAKER_01 (16:37):
well and also what that does is it teaches it
teaches the person oh hey maybemaybe this is something you can
learn from because I would callyou know through the process of
me working and us workingtogether and now I'm still going
through that process of hey I'mavailable between these hours
you call me you're not sleepingon my couch I'm not answering
(16:58):
your call at midnight I'm notyou know coming to pick you up
to do this like and that andthat helps people develop their
own skills and their own way ofproblem solving
SPEAKER_02 (17:10):
yeah
SPEAKER_01 (17:10):
and I mean I think to the same effect you said on
Thursday or whatever it wasWednesday for this you were like
oh what are you doing you knowthis weekend night and I'm like
I'm fucking I'm out partying youknow like I'm out on a Friday
and Saturday night so we have todo Sunday morning or Sunday
afternoon which you know nodetail to that but um but it is
(17:31):
yeah it's funny like so soconversely you saying don't call
me at this time also allows meand gives me the space to say
hey I feel comfortable with thisperson because they have stated
their I also feel comfortablestating my own and there's no
like hard feelings.
It's just we'll figure it out.
SPEAKER_00 (17:53):
Yeah.
Well, and it goes back to thatthat saying, which I didn't
understand for a long time andthen I didn't like, which is you
teach people how to treat you.
SPEAKER_02 (18:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:03):
Right.
And so by having thoseconversations, I mean, like,
hey, I'm available for this.
I'm not available for that.
And then setting the boundary isthe easy part.
It's the upholding the boundary.
That's the hard part.
Right.
Especially if it's something youwant
SPEAKER_01 (18:17):
or something that you consider to be a crisis,
right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:26):
Sorry, I got excited.
But you specifically, you haveimpressively worked on that so
much in the past several years,especially with people you love.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
Yeah.
And I mean, it falterssometimes, but it is...
I think more so I've worked onmy need to know.
(19:14):
I don't know what's going on.
I don't know what's going onwith this person.
I don't know what's going onwith this situation.
I don't know how things aregoing to turn out.
But that's okay, right?
I can step into the unknown andlet things unfold in ways that
before I could not.
And that's, you know, a lot ofthat's trauma work.
(19:36):
A lot of that's understandingyou can't control every
situation, nor should you.
SPEAKER_00 (19:41):
And
SPEAKER_01 (19:42):
it's a lot of higher power stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
Yeah, which is, I mean, you're right in the realm
of trust, surrender and lettinggo, right?
Yeah.
What do you think has helped youthe most to move into that from
being that over functioningformer version of yourself that
really gripped a lot because youdidn't trust into moving into
what I've seen you do over thepast few years, which is
actively practicing how tosettle and let go.
(20:06):
And even especially when we goback to how we function
differently, you are veryextroverted.
You're very motion based.
You're doing Yeah.
(20:44):
We talked about it afterwards,and I remember you saying that
Shavasana was the hardest partfor you, was like the surrender.
SPEAKER_01 (20:51):
Yeah, 100%, that, especially in the first year or
two of my recovery period.
I mean, I've told you this storya number of times, but I think
it's worth saying is that rightout of rehab here at the
(21:14):
foundry, I went back toIndianapolis and I volunteered
at a yoga studio.
And I would sit in shavasana andI had to be there a few classes
a week.
And especially early in themorning, I was sitting in
shavasana and I would just like,I mean, I would audibly bang my
(21:35):
hand because I...
I couldn't sit still and it wasso frustrating.
And it was so, so frustrating.
And I had to learn how to sitstill.
I had to learn how to be okaywith myself.
And that is such an acutephysical manifestation of
(21:55):
uncomfortability.
And I mean, it still gets me tothis day because I think of
myself and I think of how...
Sorry, my glasses are a littlewonky.
I think of how...
I watch people get up beforeShavasana now.
And I mean, I, I literally,sometimes if I have someone I'm
close to and I see them do that,I'm like, why'd you do that?
(22:16):
Like, you're not able to sitstill.
That might be a littleprojecting, but whatever.
Um, and one of the things thatI, I really actively practice,
um, is, um, Sometimes I'll gointo a class, especially a hot
power class, and just...
(22:40):
either sit out a number of posesor sit out one out of a sequence
of three and just sit therewhile everybody else around me
is moving and try to stay asstill as possible not in sleep I
wear my eyes open I'm lookingforward and stillness while the
rest of the world around me ismoving and I was inspired from
(23:03):
that through a fellow yogi whocame into a class and sat there
the whole class and I was justblown away I was blown away she
didn't move a lick she after theclass I was like what did you do
what did you do that whole thingshe's like I needed to rest and
I was like so beautiful so Ithink how I how I switched that
(23:25):
off to get back to your questionwas that I started becoming
comfortable with myself Istarted becoming comfortable in
my own skin and And that hastaken and is taking a long time.
I mean, Costa Rica has helped.
SPEAKER_00 (23:42):
I like that you said is taking though, that like this
is a thing.
SPEAKER_01 (23:47):
Well, this, you know, what is, I mean,
especially as a man, a lot ofthe times as a human, as an
American, my value oftentimes isplaced upon my productivity.
SPEAKER_00 (24:00):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (24:01):
And it is, rest is resistance.
I think we hear that a decentamount now.
And it's so true.
And I started hearing thatphrase a few years ago, four
years ago.
And it is a practice that Icontinually try to embody.
Because it is.
It's wild when someone comes upto you and you say, hey, how you
(24:25):
been?
All busy.
I've been busy.
I've been busy.
And that is what they're doingor what we're taught and they're
consciously or subconsciouslydoing.
He's saying, I am of value.
I am contributing toproductivity.
Therefore, look at me and I amworthy.
(24:46):
I'm not saying that that's 100%.
I'm not talking about black andwhite in this.
But what I am saying is that itdoesn't have to be the first
thing.
And I practice trying to say,you know, I've been hanging out
and sometimes I'm like, I'vebeen busy because I've been
busy.
But other times, you know, whenthey say that and I was with
(25:06):
them, the friend's dad back inCincinnati.
If he sees this, he's going toremember.
And his dad's a businessman.
He's a developer and this, that,the other.
Great guy.
Love him to death.
We were at their lake house andjust the three of us sitting in.
And I go, how you been?
He goes, oh, busy, busy.
He goes, how you been?
What have you been up?
I've been chilling, trying towork as little as possible.
(25:29):
You know, which is, you know, I,you know, I'm even trying to
justify it now, right?
But the, I mean, he was He'sjust like, what you got going
on?
Yeah.
You can tell he was taken aback.
Like, what do you mean?
You should be busy.
SPEAKER_00 (25:46):
Well, and that I remember seeing this a couple of
years ago somewhere online.
And it was, I think, a Facebookfriend or something.
And it was somebody postingabout and they tagged someone I
knew in the post.
And it was about how she wassuch a great mom.
And it was essentially the supermom.
Oh, because she does this, thisand this.
She's always at sports.
(26:06):
whatever.
She's always got Gatorade forall the kids.
And then she teaches.
And then she would like, it wasall about how much she does out
in the world.
And they were applauding that,which the intention was, it was
meant to be complimentary.
But what it's really doing islike shoving.
And I also happen to know thisperson and she was exhausted.
Yeah.
(26:27):
And burnt out.
Yeah.
And like on the verge of tears.
And that's what's like, they'recheerleading, right?
That that's where the value in awoman or a mom comes from.
is how much she can do for herkids and her community and that
was it was a high five rightwhich is it's the problems the
amount of problems wrong withthat are you know a lot but
SPEAKER_01 (26:48):
yeah I mean it is it's so like and what happens
when mom gets sick
SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
yeah
SPEAKER_01 (26:54):
dad gets fired yeah or gets injured
SPEAKER_00 (26:59):
yeah
SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
you know I twisted my ankle and okay and then let's
help them how do we get themback Oh, my God.
(27:36):
is prenatal, you know, pregnancycare before, during and after
and Western society and how weTry to yank the baby out and get
everybody back to work,basically.
(28:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:48):
Yeah.
Or even the thing I've heardoften in the culture of women
after pregnancy is the getting–how do I get my body back?
And it's like you don't.
And I don't mean that in a meanway.
I mean your body changes throughthat experience.
So whatever happens, like– Imean, it's a new version of it.
SPEAKER_01 (29:35):
What's the end goal?
Right.
(29:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:05):
Yeah.
Well, and even, you know, wewere talking earlier about some
of our differences.
And one of the things that Ithink people misconstrue a lot
is extroversion versusintroversion.
Right.
And I think sort of societallythat's misconstrued as being
outgoing or being shy, which isnot true.
Right.
The source of those words andhow they function is in energy,
where you get energy from.
(30:26):
Right.
And so even so yesterday orwhatever, a couple of days ago,
I was helping with the Fourth ofJuly stuff downtown.
And I am an introvert, whichmeans Yeah.
(31:05):
And I'm like, I want to punchpeople and go home.
And so I learned again throughbeing an adult and being
empathic that I feel people alot, that I take that on even
though I don't mean to and howto manage that better so that I
can function in those systems.
Whereas someone who isextroverted will often gain
energy from being around peopleand it will fuel them and they
have a little bit more of thatthan I do.
(31:26):
Right.
And so where I was going withthis is the other day I was
helping with the Fourth of Julystuff downtown and we started at
like 730 in the morning.
And I am in output mode and it'shot.
It's like 95 in Nashville,right?
And it's not, you're not buyingan ocean.
There's no breeze.
And so we're doing stuff.
Yeah, we're doing stuff all daylong.
(31:46):
And it got to be like twoo'clock and I volunteered for
the day.
And it got to be like twoo'clock and we were done with
all the setup.
We're just hanging out talkingto people at this point.
And I had just met some of thesepeople and I turned to the guy
next to me and I was like, I'mgoing to go home.
And he just looks at me and Iwas like, I'll be back.
I'll be back in like threehours, but I need a break.
And I just said, I explainedwhat I just said to you and I
said if I don't do this if Ikeep trying to push through by
(32:09):
like 6 o'clock I'm going tocrash and I'm going to be an
ugly version of me and I'm notgoing to stay for the fireworks
or stay for anything for therest of the night because I will
have crossed that line and thenI'll just leave for the night
and I won't care at all and thenI'll be mad later that I missed
the whole point of why I wasthere and so we were talking
about it and he's like I getlike that too and so I was like
(32:30):
okay well I'm going to go homeand he said I think I'm going to
push through no he said I'mgoing to push through.
And I said, OK.
So I came home.
I decompressed.
I just chilled out.
I ate some food, airconditioning, whatnot.
And then it was like 5.30, Ithink.
And I called a Lyft to get backover there.
And I got a text from him rightas I was getting in the Lyft.
(32:54):
And he was like, I should havelistened to you.
I'm so wiped.
And he's like, I'm going to gotry to take a nap on the lawn
over there.
But I'm really having a hardtime.
And I just laughed.
But I also, I've been there andthat's why I do this now and I
manage it better because I havenot listened to that so many
times that I know how it'll gofor me but still that thing of
(33:14):
like I should be here I shouldstay because I volunteered for
the whole day it's like first ofall I'm a volunteer I didn't
have to do this at all we didall the hard part and this other
stuff isn't till later you don'tneed me right now you know and
but to honor that in the midstand they all looked at me like
what do you mean you're goinghome right nobody was mad I just
kind of I just said you know I'mgonna go take a break it's hot
(33:35):
and I'll be And they were like,oh, okay.
But it was a moment of like, ifyou don't feel permission to do
that yourself, you'll questionwhen other people do it too.
SPEAKER_01 (33:44):
And then when somebody does it, you give
others permission.
That's beautiful.
And it's something that came upfor me.
And again, I think we'recontinually diving deeper into
the accessibility of autonomy,which is also boundaries.
I have autonomy.
(34:05):
Yeah.
Similar situation, I was in aBuddhist retreat where I was
volunteering for the week backin May.
And It was– they reallyintegrated boundaries as
practice in Zen Buddhism.
It's at the Crestone Retreatdown there.
(34:26):
And the abbot was like, okay,before you go off and do your
task for the day, you're goingto clean this.
I'm going to give you somethingto clean for 10 minutes.
UNKNOWN (34:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (34:40):
And you don't have to say, I'm going to start and
finish this certain cleaningprocess in 10 minutes, so I have
to navigate what I can clean in10 minutes.
No, you have a whole house.
In my case, it was the wholehouse, big hallway to clean, but
I only had 10 minutes.
(35:03):
When that 10 minutes is up,stop.
It doesn't matter where you are.
It doesn't matter that youdidn't finish.
Stop.
And then go on and go to yourother task.
And at the end of the day, we'redone at work at, you know,
whatever it was, 3.30.
Stop.
Like, find a stopping point.
The task does not have to becompletely done.
(35:24):
And if you need to rest, rest.
You know, you have permission torest.
And it was this...
Even though you said you wererunning out of energy, I think
in your example, what I'mhearing is that you're trying to
create more abundance of yourenergy for what you wish to
(35:46):
spend that energy on.
SPEAKER_00 (35:47):
Yes, yes, exactly.
So
SPEAKER_01 (35:49):
in order to do that, you're not operating from
scarcity saying, oh, I'm tiredof this.
Like, hey, no, I want moreenergy for later.
I know that that is my intendedgoal is to see the fireworks, to
be present, and to be fullymyself for the space that I can
be.
So therefore, I need to takerest.
(36:10):
And I'm going to honor that.
And, you know, you don't seethat too often people burn, I
mean, burnout, right?
SPEAKER_00 (36:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:18):
overextending yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (36:19):
And I was in, I spent, you know, I have my
second degree is in teaching, Ispent a little bit of time in
the teaching system.
And I will not forget this,because it was just one of the
years that I was there, like youhad certain amount of days that
you can take off.
They're given to you, whatever.
And if you don't use them, theywill roll over.
Right.
So it is common in teaching forteachers to not use those days
(36:44):
to collect them because thenthey keep them.
And if you're going to be ateacher for many years, that
adds up to a year or so orwhatever off of retirement.
Right.
So you can retire a year earlyor however much time that you
have saved.
Right.
You know, I have a this is I getall feisty about this, but I
won't do that.
I mean,
SPEAKER_01 (37:01):
I'm getting feisty just thinking about it.
Anyway, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (37:03):
But at the time I was in a school and I was very
intent on taking all of my daysbecause I use them to reset.
I need a break.
I'm a little burnt out.
I'm whatever.
I wasn't taking big trips.
I was just taking like I'm goingto take this Wednesday off to
break up my week.
But there was a subtle likenon-spoken about response from
(37:30):
other teachers whenever I said Iwas taking a day off.
And I'm trying to explain itbecause it's not overt, right?
They're not like directly sayingthings, but there would be
things like, oh, you're takingthe other day off.
That must be nice.
Yeah.
And I'm like, you have the samedays that I have, right?
But it's like sort of frownedupon by people who don't feel
(37:53):
like they have the freedom to dothat or choose not to do that.
They have the same days that Ihave.
In fact, many of them had manymore.
But if the culture is such thatthere's sort of a subtle
implication that you're notworking as hard or you're like
that that's the way we do thingshere and you're breaking that
culture or going against it itis frowned upon and like i said
(38:15):
the way of which it happens wasvery subtly like slid into
conversations until i
SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
actually perhaps
SPEAKER_00 (38:22):
yeah yes very much so and i remember at one point i
happened to be in the hallwayand i saw these other two
teachers who had been there formany years and i just heard them
talking to each other duringlike a passing period and they
were talking about heat It was aguy, it was a man and a woman.
And he was talking about howmany days he had left before
retirement because of how manydays he'd saved up.
(38:42):
And she was in agreement and inher own version of how many days
they, not competing, but like,oh, I have this many and I have
that many.
And I remember thinking, like,there's certain moments where I
make choices and I remember thatlike across my life.
And I just remember thinking, Iwill never do that ever.
And I get it.
I understand why people do thatand what the mindset is.
(39:03):
It's just not Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:27):
There's so much to unpack there because it is, I
mean, I think teachers,nonprofit where we worked in
together, nonprofit, I mean,hospitality.
SPEAKER_00 (39:36):
Any like service industry where you're caring is
part of your job and empathy andgiving and nurturing or
whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (39:45):
It's weaponized and martyrdom becomes the currency
of value.
SPEAKER_00 (39:52):
Oh, that was good.
SPEAKER_01 (39:53):
Where just like you are, oh my God, so-and-so has so
many organizations and does somuch.
And I can't tell you how manytimes I've met people that are
in recovery and the nonprofitwork.
I grew up, my mother was ateacher.
She had pretty good boundariesthen.
But other teachers that I'veknown, I mean, I work still in
(40:18):
hospitality in the mental healthspace.
Chefs, I mean, one of thehighest suicide rates in any
industry is among chefs.
Where...
oh, they're here when the placeopens, they're here when the
place closed, they don't take aday off and it's looked upon as
this celebratory thing.
But what's behind that, right?
(40:40):
What's their family life like?
What's their health like?
What's their physical health,mental health?
How are they abusing substances?
Is their partner happy?
Are their children happy?
I mean, you see it in the mentalhealth space in psychiatrists
and therapists and things likethat.
How often do they work so hardat getting the outside world to
(41:04):
approve of them while theirfamily or their own mental
health deteriorates?
And specifically to reflect uponlike the teachers, just the
hardest working, most, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (41:20):
They work so hard.
SPEAKER_01 (41:22):
They work so hard and it's because they care so
much.
And people, and how many financebros do you know that don't do
shit, just move money aroundand, you know, make millions and
millions of dollars.
Some of them in that time aswell, I do know some people that
work in finance that havesacrificed in the same way where
(41:44):
they don't spend time with theirfamilies, lawyers, things like
that.
But they get paid, right?
Here's a question.
What do you think is worth more,time or money?
SPEAKER_00 (41:59):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (42:29):
Yeah, there's a, I mean, it is, it's, I, like you,
actually rest nowadays, which Ididn't used to.
Central America has taught mesome deep, deep lessons along
with plant medicine, which isanother reason why I've really
come to view time as it'svaluable, but it's also infinite
(42:50):
for me.
So there's no rush, right?
Because when time is sovaluable, I can look at it in
this scarcity mindset.
SPEAKER_00 (42:59):
I
SPEAKER_01 (43:00):
only have so much time and we'll go back to I need
to control this thing because Ionly have so much time I need to
have this person do what I wantthem to do because I only have
so much time rather when time isseen as precious and abundance
(43:21):
it's still because if it's inabundance it is so precious then
it will happen when it needs tohappen for most things not
everything sometimes you're likeI need to get to the store I you
know I'm not going to show up 15minutes late or an hour late
that's just disrespect but whenI'm trying to get something done
it is going to happen when it'sgoing to happen and it seems to
(43:44):
fall in place when it needs tofall in place and that is
Complicated.
SPEAKER_00 (43:51):
Yeah.
How has that worked for you withworking still in the, like,
restaurant industry, but in theangle that you're working now?
I
SPEAKER_01 (44:01):
mean, I see, like, I was actually working at a
restaurant a couple years agohere in Steamboat, and the owner
said to me, and I hear it a lotnow because it's stuck, slow is
smooth, smooth is fast.
Yes.
UNKNOWN (44:17):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (44:18):
Yes.
And it feels like when I'mrushing, when I'm in the weeds,
another, I saw another, a friendof mine said the other day, he
learned from anotherrestaurateur here, that being in
the weeds is just perspective.
You know, you're not in theweeds if you don't think you
are.
Like, it's just all perspective.
(44:38):
So I think if you're, you know,why am I in the weeds?
Let's take that example.
Why am I in the weeds?
Why am I behind on tickets ifI'm a chef?
Why am I...
Why am I on a two-hour wait?
It's because I tried to pleaseeverybody.
I tried to say, oh, yes, we'llget you in.
(44:59):
And as a customer, I'd rathersomeone say, it's going to be an
hour.
Are you willing to wait an hour?
And then it's 45 minutes.
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (45:10):
Then it's going to, oh, you know, I want you to
stay.
I really need you here.
I want your business.
It's only going to be fiveminutes.
I'm going to make it happen.
Mm-hmm.
And then it's 45 minutes.
And then I'm like, well, if youjust would have told me it would
have been 45 minutes, I wouldhave been fine.
Then I could have made thechoice around whether it was
valuable for me to stay.
(45:30):
And then I'm happy, right?
I'm happy if you sat me in 45minutes and you said it was
going to be an hour.
I'm unhappy if you told me itwas going to be five and it ends
up being 15.
And even though the 15 is ashorter time than the 45, my
perspective is that you don'thave boundaries.
is that
SPEAKER_02 (45:50):
yes
SPEAKER_01 (45:51):
you don't understand yeah you're just you're just
trying to you're not beinghonest with yourself or with me
and i mean i think that's atangible hard example of
something i've experienced ofhow to really piss people off is
to tell them you can dosomething when you can't yeah
and even though i really love toget you sat in five minutes
(46:12):
believe me but i can't i'd loveto yeah
SPEAKER_00 (46:17):
and i used to talk about this when i i would talk
to hosts in the restaurant thatI worked at, like pick a
restaurant because I would talkabout this a lot, because they
would seat people.
And if the server is busy oroverloaded at that point in
time, the people then have towait at the table.
And that waiting, you just toldthem to wait at the door for
five minutes.
(46:38):
Waiting at the door for fiveminutes is not equivalent to
waiting at the table fiveminutes.
It's a very differentexperience.
Waiting at the door is no bigdeal.
Everybody's like, cool, fiveminutes.
I'm going to make a
SPEAKER_01 (46:49):
call.
I'm going to go look at Yeah,sure.
We're
SPEAKER_00 (46:51):
talking about five minutes.
But if you seat someone and theguests are sitting at a table
waiting for a server for fiveminutes before they see anyone,
that feels like an eternity.
And so I was like, it's inperspective and how you handle
the situation.
They're not equal, right?
But training and around thefunctionality of how we think
about that.
I'm a big proponent just how Ido anything is can I
(47:15):
under-promise and over-deliver?
SPEAKER_01 (47:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:18):
Freaking, like I live my life on it.
that all the time what can I andI will I repeatedly do that and
I want to do that but I tryreally hard to commit like
commitment to me is veryimportant I try to be very clear
people ask me to do stuff allthe time I try to be very clear
what is the ask because I'vesaid this before I've said this
to you I remember specificallyyou asked me to do something and
(47:41):
I was in a hurry and whateverand I just said yes and then I
remember calling you later andbeing like hey I know that I
said yes to that I was flusteredand I would like to know what
are like what's the ask what areyou actually asking of me so I
can think about it and decidewhether I can give it to you or
not because otherwise we justsay yes because we want to make
(48:01):
someone happy or we want towhatever and then I'm behind and
I'm resentful
SPEAKER_01 (48:06):
yeah and I'm not going to do what you
SPEAKER_00 (48:09):
ask me to
SPEAKER_01 (48:09):
do a good job no or even yeah I'm either not going
to do it all or I'm not going todo a good job of doing
SPEAKER_00 (48:15):
it yeah that was a big
SPEAKER_01 (48:16):
that was a big um part of my of last year i i and
it also when you talk to a hostlike that and you're talking
about sitting tables you have aprecedent so then you have an
example so that when the nexthost comes in they know because
you set a boundary instead ofstating from the get-go we're
(48:38):
you know we're gonna likedominoes you know for years 30
minutes or less 30 minutes orless now you're lucky if you get
it in an hour but you know it islike you set a precedent and you
and you know what yourcapabilities are.
So with a host, hey, it's goingto fluctuate.
It's going to change.
If it's 4th of July weekend, ourwait's most likely going to be
(48:59):
on an hour for most of theweekend.
And when I did, when I workedthe plant medicine retreat last
winter, I had no precedent.
I had no understanding of what Ishould feel like, what the base
level was of what I should bedoing.
And I had to figure that out formyself.
And I had to listen to my body Ihad to listen to my spirit I had
(49:24):
to listen to the capabilities ofof myself and then when I felt
that when I felt like I wasgetting stressed I had to use
all those other times where I'dset boundaries or I was able to
speak up for myself and say I'mnot I don't feel like this is
right I don't feel like my bodyor my spirit can handle this
(49:45):
anymore and I need to take abreak and even though I didn't I
my precedent was blank.
I didn't know.
I thought I was doing a bad job.
I sat and I sat as a doorman forover 30 ceremonies in the rainy
season in like three months,which then I started speaking
up.
I remember when someone actuallycame up to me, one of the
(50:06):
facilitators and I'm sittingthere and he was just like, and
I knew they were all exhaustedtoo.
And he was just like, Hey man,are you all right?
And that's all, honestly, all ittook.
And I was just like, No, I'mnot.
I'm not all right.
And it really, like, it tooksomebody penetrating that hard
shell that I had of commitment,of expectations, and of not
(50:31):
knowing to say, hey, like, howactually, as we say often, like,
how are you really, right?
To say to me, when Robert saidthat to me, how are you really?
It wasn't like, hey, how areyou?
It was like, how are you?
And it sunk and it hit me.
And it really, I can picture itnow, it hit me to the core of
(50:53):
like, it was almost like anawakening of like, I'm not well,
and I need help.
And then having boundaries andhaving practice, I was able to
say, and this is the way that Ineed help.
And I reached out in a way thatI knew how to reach out.
And then when I started reachingout, you know, everybody around
me and the organization said,oh, yeah, like, you shouldn't be
(51:16):
doing that.
This was out of the realm ofnormalcy.
We'll see.
And we're, we, you know, we'regoing to correct that and let's,
let's shift instead of, insteadof which in the past.
If I have a relationship,whether it's with a job or with
a lover or with family, maybenot recently in the past couple
(51:38):
of years, but in the past, Iwould hit my breaking point and
then it would be black or white.
I'm either in or I'm out, right?
Something's wrong, I'm either inor I'm out.
Instead, now I'm able to say,this part of this is not feeling
good.
I don't even have to say it'swrong.
It doesn't feel like this is inline with what I'm capable of.
(51:59):
Let's figure out a way to makethis relationship work for both
of us, whether it's work,whether it's romantic, and shift
it so that it feels good forboth of us and see if that is
something that we can come toterms on.
And with the Ayahuasca RetreatCenter, I was able to do that
without resentment.
And I was able to, you know, Istarted teaching yoga more.
(52:22):
I started doing pickups withthem.
And I sat in lesson ceremony.
And then, you know, I was ableto recover physically.
And so I really, you know, thatwas just last winter.
And I probably had it been twowinters ago or three winters ago
or, you know, 10 years ago.
(52:43):
It would have driven me into areally dark space.
UNKNOWN (52:47):
Mm hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (52:48):
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
(53:18):
It's really nice.
It's a really beautiful thing tobe able to navigate that gray
space Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (53:32):
Yeah.
(53:54):
Yeah.
In those conversations, it wasreally beautiful because I think
it's just a space to talk aboutthings that you don't get to
talk about, right?
But I noticed at one point I wasin a couple meetings and people
were, you know, not doing greaton that scale.
And I would come in and likehave a really good day.
And then I almost feel like Ican't celebrate, right?
Because the sort of the setup isto talk about things that are
(54:18):
hard, which is beautiful.
But then I was like, am I toohappy for, you know, like,
should I tone it down?
Like the celebration of how goodmy life's gotten it so that I'm
on the same page as everyone andso it took me a little while to
practice and that this just inmy head that's not you know they
didn't set that up that's justin my head of like
SPEAKER_01 (54:35):
oh yeah
SPEAKER_00 (54:36):
that I can't and that's it that's a childhood
thing for me actually which isthat like I can't shine too much
I have to dim it because I don'twant to make anyone else feel
SPEAKER_01 (54:46):
bad then I better be upset too I better I better tone
my mood down because thehousehold is in disarray
SPEAKER_00 (54:56):
Yeah, well, and I don't mind was like, I watched
different people struggling withthings.
And so I didn't want to add tothe struggle.
So I'm going to just be in thein the corner metaphorically of
like, let me take up as littleroom as possible.
So I don't.
And then I'm always like, Oh,I'm good.
I'm good.
You know, like, whatever.
So I'm sort of like, I'm good,but I'm not great.
But I'm just out of the way.
SPEAKER_01 (55:16):
Yeah.
When you're like, reallybubbling inside, like, man, I'm
having a really good day.
SPEAKER_00 (55:21):
Yeah, but it's just I want to celebrate
SPEAKER_01 (55:24):
that.
But if someone else isn't, and Iwe do that often in chow.
I mean, there's, there's very,very often that, you know, a
couple of people will check inwell done.
And I mean, in all honesty, somereally, really, really heavy
stuff.
I mean, they're, they'reconfidential meetings.
We're not going to share what itis, but much like in, in
recovery.
And I think 12 step rooms do areally good job of that.
(55:46):
And chow is not a 12 step group.
It's not a recovery group, but Ithink modeling that someone can
be just getting out of jail orthey had, you know, Someone
passed away that same day and Igo into two 12 step rooms all
over the country, all over theworld.
And, you know, someone can checkin and say, my husband died of
(56:08):
an overdose yesterday.
Right.
And then you go down the lineand someone else can say, you
know, I got a new job today andI just had a baby and I just got
out of rehab and I'm celebratingthree years sober and for 30
days sober.
And and it could be held in thesame way.
space.
Yeah.
And I think that's reallyspecial about 12 Step.
(56:30):
And it's something that when yousaid earlier, I made myself
small.
I think that's a really strongreflection and a really good
lesson of being able to say Ican hold both at the same times
(56:51):
and allowing other people tohave grief And have compassion
for that grief, but not diveinto that with them.
SPEAKER_00 (57:00):
Yes.
Then that
SPEAKER_01 (57:01):
circles back around the boundaries.
SPEAKER_00 (57:04):
Yes.
And yet, that was great.
But full circle because we had,and again, I've had a lot of
training in my jobs over theyears.
But one of the examples I likedthe best.
Yes.
Oh, yes.
And your experience is betterthan
SPEAKER_02 (57:16):
training.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (57:17):
Yes.
And being in situations whereI'm having to practice all this
actively in real time.
Right.
But one of the best metaphors orexample that I examples I liked
of that of what you just said islike was in compassion fatigue
training right when we we wouldget I would get burnt out
especially like I can feelpeople and it has taken me years
to understand that even the wordempath like doesn't do it
(57:41):
justice like I literally canfeel them and I take it on and
sometimes don't even know it andI have had to learn how to
handle that so I function betterright but as a as a person when
you had when I had clients andthey are in very heavy very deep
very dark spaces and I'm inconversation around that how to
not take that on myself becauseit was depleting me because I
(58:04):
cared right and so to but anywaywhat the example was that it was
the boat it was like if you'reon a boat I can't remember
you'll have to help me with thisif you're on a boat if
SPEAKER_01 (58:14):
you're in a canoe and somebody's drowning and you
have a life preserver compassionis throwing them the life
preserver say here's a tool foryou to use if you decide that
you want to grab onto that it'sgoing to help you because
someone threw it for me one timebut empathy is jumping in trying
(58:37):
to grab them and they drag youdown with them and then you're
both in the water and thenyou're both in the water and
most likely you're going to havea hard time and I think that is
one of the hardest practices isthat is when you watch someone
drown and you do you know youwatch someone die I've watched
many people die yeah I'vewatched many people go back into
addiction.
(58:57):
I've watched many people go backinto just mental health
struggles or go back to a jobthey don't like or go back to a
relationship that's bad forthem.
SPEAKER_02 (59:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (59:07):
And there's the tools out there for them to do
it.
And I've done it myself.
Right.
But.
UNKNOWN (59:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (59:15):
I think that is the, it really plays into that whole
rare and well done.
Like I can be rare and you canbe well done and we can sit in
the same room and that's okay.
And if you're mad at me becauseI'm rare and you're well done,
or I'm mad at you because you'rerare and I'm well done, then
that's a deeper problem.
SPEAKER_00 (59:32):
One that, that like, I don't, it's not, I can't
rescue, fix and save.
SPEAKER_01 (59:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I haven't heard you say thatall, all those whole time, which
is a modern miracle.
I
SPEAKER_00 (59:44):
love it.
It's good.
I had to work on it so much.
I can't rescue, fix, and save.
And
SPEAKER_01 (59:49):
you have to reiterate it to people that you
care about when they're tryingto rescue, fix, and save others.
And that's seen as heartlessamong some groups, especially
groups that celebrate martyrdom.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:05):
Like, you should be working tirelessly and sacrifice
your life in order to fix theseindividuals or systems that are
failing.
And, you know, that's a largerconversation.
But I mean, it is like, youknow, we, I've said this in many
aspects, but I think it's alwaysworth saying is, especially in
(01:00:28):
teaching, in recovery, in mentalhealth, in a lot of areas that
you and I have seen a lot ofthese Yeah.
Yeah.
(01:00:53):
And if we don't get to those, itjust, and as we see, you know, I
don't, it's so hard.
As we see in a larger scale,more and more people are falling
into that river and more, andwe're trying to save more and
more.
And then just like the canoereference, we fall right in with
them.
And how many peer specialists orteachers or mental health
(01:01:17):
advocates relapse or ignoretheir own health or ignore their
relationships and their familyin order to help others or try
to change the symptoms at thesymptoms rather than at the
larger systems.
And then it's a big ask.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:33):
Right.
And there's no hero
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:34):
in it.
There's no hero in it, right?
There's no like, I, you know,helped Susie find a job and, you
know, she didn't, she didn'tkill herself this week.
And, and, you know, it's like,cool.
There's, there's 10 more peopledown the river, you
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:53):
know?
Yeah.
And it's like, I think, and Ithink you and I both function
this way kind of generally inwhatever we're doing.
I will speak for myself, but Ijust know you well enough to
know you do a lot of that too,which is I keep coming back to
me.
I keep taking care of me andtrying to work on me because the
more I do that and the more Ivoice it out loud, the more that
I think I hopefully give otherpeople permission to do the
(01:02:14):
same.
And I think that's how we teach,right?
Is by going out and being in theworld and being in a part of
that and creating impact andpicking at people along the way
and being like, hey, you can dothis too, right?
In whatever way.
No, oh no.
It's in the quiet conversations.
Yeah.
I mean,
SPEAKER_01 (01:02:31):
when I first got into recovery the first couple,
three years, it was like, here'swhat I'm doing.
Here's how I help somebody.
This is it.
Look at me.
And it is, it's much more subtleand you celebrate less pain
rather than you know it's notit's not like it's not you're
(01:02:54):
not celebrating winning you'rejust celebrating less pain which
is you can't quantify that andyou don't get awards for it
SPEAKER_00 (01:03:03):
no you don't get awards for it and there have
been times there have been timesthroughout that process where
I've said no to helping becauseit was actually detrimental to
me
SPEAKER_01 (01:03:13):
yeah right
SPEAKER_00 (01:03:14):
anyway
SPEAKER_01 (01:03:15):
I had someone I had someone say to me last summer
because I have a so boat youknow and we started off with a
real kick.
We have like, you know, we stillhave like 1,500 people.
It's just a little, it's like aforum for people to get
together.
But first we make t-shirts andwe do
SPEAKER_00 (01:03:30):
this.
I was wearing mine the otherday.
I
SPEAKER_01 (01:03:32):
have mine.
It's great.
You know, at some point it mayexpand into some other things.
I have some ideas, but it'swhere it's at now because I'm
exploring these other things.
But I had someone say to mebecause I had quit my health
partnership job and I hadsomeone say to me actually last
4th of July They go, I justthought you would have done more
(01:03:54):
with that.
Oh, like, and, and, you know, itwas like in a real, like, and I
was like, I mean, obviously itstill sticks with me.
It's a year later and it stillsticks with me because I, you
know, it's very hard to untrainyour mind of value of
productivity.
And it was someone in the, inthe nonprofit world.
(01:04:15):
And I was just like, I was like,I mean, I responded and like,
okay, yeah, appreciate that andI walked off you know but again
it is you know a year later itstill sticks with me
SPEAKER_02 (01:04:26):
and
SPEAKER_01 (01:04:28):
it sticks with me because it's a lesson in
allowing others to bedisappointed in you and I think
that is that for me is somethingthat I work with my men's group
now a lot is how do we allowothers to be disappointed with
us without trying to appeasethem to the detriment of
ourselves And if I'm stay, if Iknow, if I'm confident, if I'm
(01:04:52):
healthy, if I'm practicing, ifI'm doing all that I can and
someone's disappointed in me,that's really not my thing.
Like be disappointed in me.
And how do I handle that?
How do I allow them to bedisappointed and not let it
affect my day to day?
And I, and I, I really foundthat as a, as a stump, as a
(01:05:14):
starting off point or maybe evena midpoint in really practicing,
uh, Allowing people to haveexpectations of you that you
cannot and do not intend tomeet.
SPEAKER_00 (01:05:27):
Yes.
Well, I am so glad that you'rehere.
I could just sit and talk to youfor another six hours.
I
SPEAKER_01 (01:05:32):
think we got to one question.
Did you have three more?
Do you have another three hours?
No,
SPEAKER_00 (01:05:41):
but it's perfect.
And I appreciate you so much.
Thank you for spending time withme.
And I always like one of thereasons I have you here is not
just because I'm friends withyou and really life right it's
because I value your perspectiveon things and you challenge me
right when I come up againstsomething you'll be like hey
like are you sure about that andI value that so so appreciately
(01:06:02):
or so much so I appreciate thatbut thank you for being here
love you for spending time withme I love you too we'll talk
soon
SPEAKER_01 (01:06:08):
all right see you thanks bye
SPEAKER_00 (01:06:15):
bye
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