November 25, 2025 • 55 mins
Do you feel rigid and stuck, even after years of sobriety? Many reach this plateau, but the key to moving forward isn't just abstinence—it's emotional sobriety and psychic integration. Jungian Analyst in training, Jeff Browning, offers a revolutionary perspective: the parts of ourselves we push into the Shadow (like anger or old complexes) don't disappear; they emerge sideways, keeping us stuck in cycles we thought we escaped.
Jeff shares his personal path, guided by symbolic dreams, showing how connecting with your inner world is the true path to emotional freedom. We discuss the necessity of Shadow Work—entering a conscious relationship with the darker self—and the powerful Jungian concept of Anima and Animus for balancing inner energies. It’s time to learn how to nurture the inner child, embrace the wholeness of your personality—light and shadow—to move beyond the limiting boxes society created for you.
This episode is a permission slip to move past the painful idea that you must be "perfect." It’s about finding that deep core of self-love and reclaiming the freedom to decide who you are now, allowing your authentic self to finally emerge. If you're looking to bring the magic back into your life and deepen your healing, this conversation is essential listening. Finally, you can break those old psychological chains and realize, as Jung put it: "I am who I decide to be."
Tune in to find the magic and start rewriting the end of your story.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
There are moments in life that split us open.
By unraveling sudden frame ortruths, we didn't know what we
needed.
Until we had no choice.
This podcast is about thosemoments.
It's about the turning pointsthat change us.
The things I wish someone hadtold me that I only understand
in looking back.
Come on in.
You belong here.
(00:20):
And we're gonna talk about allof it.
I'm your host Natanya, and thisis what I didn't know.
Before we begin, a quick note.
This podcast explores themessuch as mental health,
addiction, trauma, and recovery.
While the stories here arehonest and heartfelt, they're
not a substitute forprofessional advice, therapy, or
(00:41):
medical treatment.
Please listen with care andpause anytime you need to.
Take whatever resonates for youand leave the rest.
Today's guest is Jeff Browning.
Jeff was a speaker at an eventthat I was at recently, and
after he was finished, Iapproached him and was like,
Will you please be on the show?
Because I was captivated by muchof what he said.
(01:01):
I think of anything that'shelped me throughout the healing
process, the just overallconcept of psychology and
understanding why I do what Ido, why other people do what
they do, and how I can changemyself and have grace for others
and compassion as we all movethroughout the world has helped
me, I think, the most, just justto understand that there's
(01:24):
reasons for for why all thesethings happen and that we can
change them in order to show updifferently.
Jeff's specialty is in youngpsychology, and so we really
dive into that in this episode,and I just can't wait for you to
hear it.
Here we go.
(01:49):
Like particularly for quite afew weeks now.
So I'm pretty excited thatyou're here.
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
Cool.
Well, I'm so glad to be here.
I've been looking forward to it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (01:57):
And we um for context for listeners, I first
heard Jeff speak at CampRecovery, which is put on by
Cumberland Heights in Nashville.
It's a weekend retreat,essentially, summer camp weekend
in the end of October that Ijust went to a couple weeks ago
and you were there.
And then you finished, and Ijumped on you and was like, Can
(02:17):
you please be on my podcast?
SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was fun.
SPEAKER_03 (02:21):
But before we begin, tell me a little bit about how
you got started and kind of whatbrought you into Youngin
psychology in the first place.
SPEAKER_00 (02:32):
Yeah, well, I, you know, I I got sober through the
12 steps in 2000, and thenstarted working in the field of
addiction in 2002 as a tech atCumberland Heights in the
adolescent program.
And then over the years, I endedup getting my license, and I
(02:54):
worked at Cumberland Heights andI started uh helped start Still
Waters, which was was kind of anall-men's 12-step immersion.
And then I worked at the ranchand really got a lot of training
on trauma after that, and uhworked in a prison for a little
while after I worked at theranch.
And just through my recovery,you know, I've always kind of
(03:16):
been a spiritual seeker.
Uh I studied Buddhism for a lotof years and study a lot of
Christian mystics and anythingrelated to spirituality.
You know, my mother read Youngwhen I was little.
She was a big reader, and so Ihad read some Young in the past.
I've always been an avid reader.
But around 2019, 2020, I kind ofhad a series of dreams around
(03:45):
the time of COVID that kind ofled me to get into analysis,
into youngin analysis.
And I I found an analyst andstarted working with her.
And um, the process was soinspiring for me and so
fulfilling that after a coupleyears, she told me that she
(04:06):
thought I should do sometraining in Youngin psychology.
And so I started going toSwitzerland uh to the Center for
Depth Psychology and have beendoing that for three and a half
years and have and and now am aYoung Yan analyst in training, I
guess.
(04:26):
That's that's kind of how I gotinto it.
And then I've really I've reallycome to believe that Youngin'
psychology can be kind of amissing link for people in
recovery, not just people inrecovery, but specifically now
that I work in private practice,it seems to address a lot of the
issues that many of my clientsstruggle with after years of
(04:49):
sobriety.
SPEAKER_03 (04:51):
I'm so fascinated.
I'm gonna ask you to rewind justa second because I want to know
about the dreams.
SPEAKER_00 (04:58):
Well, it was a very strange dream, but I had this
dream where I was carrying thehead of Hermes, a statue of
Hermes, and I was carrying thehead of this statue, and I I
walked into this really old kindof medieval shop.
(05:23):
And I was in this shop and therewas a man and a woman, and they
they both looked like wizards.
Not that they were dressed likewizards, but uh the woman she
was she was doing a motion withher hands where she was playing
these this stringed instrumentthat vibrated with light, and
(05:43):
the man was he was working onclocks, old mechanical clocks.
They said, Oh, I didn't know youwere coming so soon, but I know
why you're here with the head ofHermes, and I said, Okay, why am
I here?
And they said, Well, you'resupposed to seek young.
And uh I knew immediately whatthey meant when they told me
(06:07):
that.
And so that dream kind ofcatapulted me into the search.
SPEAKER_03 (06:12):
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (06:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:14):
Um I've had a lot of fantastic dreams, which I do not
need to get into right now, butI I love the truth of that.
Um and Hermes is is it the is hethe messenger?
SPEAKER_00 (06:25):
Yes, he is.
SPEAKER_03 (06:26):
Is my right?
SPEAKER_00 (06:27):
Yes.
And kind of kind of themessenger between the spirit
world, too, a lot of the times.
SPEAKER_03 (06:33):
Yeah.
That's awesome.
That's a hell of a way to getstarted.
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
Yeah, it was it was it was really powerful.
And then started having otherdreams along with that that kind
of kept kept guiding me towardthat path.
SPEAKER_03 (06:45):
Yeah, and you obviously listened.
SPEAKER_00 (06:48):
I did, yes.
SPEAKER_03 (06:51):
I'm curious about you had said at one point that
you felt like that this was amissing link for people not only
in recovery, but just in thehealing process.
What do you think that this,like what specifically, and you
can expand on the psychologyitself if that helps your
answer, but like what about thespecifically do you think is
missing in other things and andthat this provides as a
(07:13):
solution?
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
Well, there's a lot of areas that I that I think
that that it's kind of thatmissing link.
One that I kind of talked aboutin that workshop is kind of the
model of the personality thatJung laid out real early in his
career as far as the thinking,feeling, sensation, and
intuition.
And you know, what I know frommy own recovery and and really
(07:39):
from my experience was thatafter 20 years being sober and
really always being engaged inthe 12 steps and on a spiritual
path, I had become somewhatrigid in my personality and in
my recovery.
And that it I'm not gonna say itgot dull necessarily, but there
(08:01):
was an aspect of that.
But that it it that for myself,I just felt that I was I was
kind of stuck in in in just alittle bit of a rut.
And so it was really big for meto kind of understand this idea
that there were other parts ofmy personality that while
(08:23):
12-step recovery was really goodat developing certain parts of
my personality, there was somemissing pieces that were there
that that I needed to kind ofreawaken.
And Jungian psychology kind ofpointed me in that direction.
And, you know, to you know, andI can be as specific as you
(08:44):
want, but in one of those piecesis is the shadow.
And I I know what happens formyself, you know, in my
addiction, I kind of lived thatshadow for several years where I
wasn't couldn't exactly call mea good person or even a positive
person, but lived in a lot ofdark places and engaged in a lot
(09:06):
of dark behavior.
And when I got sober, I I Iswung to the other side, which I
needed to do, where I got reallygrounded in spiritual principles
and and um and and really andreally kind of pushed an aspect
of my personality into the dark,where I was really afraid of uh
(09:31):
that part of myself that hadbeen had been active in my
addiction.
And what I noticed was that thatthat part of my shadow
personality began to come out inother ways.
It came out kind of sideways.
And again, I s I see this withclients all the time where
people stop their alcohol anddrug use, but they still really
(09:54):
struggle with things likegambling and pornography and uh
a lot of those, you know, whatthey call process addictions
that are in the therapeuticworld.
And and I noticed that kind oftypical modes of dealing with
those weren't as effective asthey needed to be.
(10:16):
And for myself, it was theshadow really came out for me in
a lot of anger that Iexperienced in my sobriety.
And I did a lot of of course Idid tons of trauma therapy and
that helped.
And I did tons of Buddhism andmindfulness, which helped.
But youngin psychology helped memore with my anger than anything
(10:36):
else did.
SPEAKER_03 (10:37):
How specifically did it help you?
SPEAKER_00 (10:41):
Well, because you know, going back to what I was
saying, I I had well, let me saythis to you.
One of the first things myyounging analyst said to me, she
said, she asked if I had anyother addictions.
And I said, Well, I still usenicotine and caffeine, and but
I'm not too worried about those.
But other than that, I really,you know, I really don't gamble.
(11:01):
I really I don't watchpornography, you know.
I I don't think I do.
And she said, Well, I thinkyou're addicted to being good.
And yeah, that's kind of thesame response I had.
And so it kind of it kind ofreally challenged me that, well,
again, like I, you know, I'm abig believer in leaning toward
that positive side, but butagain, neglecting that that
(11:24):
other aspect of my personality,the Jungian idea is that when
you push those parts of yourselfdown into the shadows, they're
gonna come out one way or theother because repression, you
know, as we talk about withfeelings, doesn't get rid of the
feelings, they just come outsideways.
SPEAKER_03 (11:42):
Can you can you explain a little bit more
specifically?
Because I know what you'regetting at, and I use that term
a lot, but for someone whodoesn't know what that means,
then it's coming out sideways.
SPEAKER_00 (11:50):
Yeah, so so again, I would work real, you know, just
using the anger as an example,sure, I would I would work
really hard on kind of the the12-step philosophy of of, you
know, anger is just not, youknow, you're just not well
suited to deal with it.
It's better left to otherpeople.
And again, those parts of I'mnot saying that those parts
(12:10):
weren't helpful, but for me,when I pushed that down, what
would happen was I I would stillhave strong feelings of anger
that I would repress, you know,not on a daily basis, but that
would come up every coupleweeks, and I would push those
down, and I would push thosedown, and then it would show
itself in a sudden outburst oftemper.
(12:32):
Whether that be on the road orwhether that be, you know, in a
store, or if somebody I justfelt crossed me, I would I would
be kind of overwhelmed by thisanger.
And that's because again, I Ireally found out that I was
disconnected from that feelingpart of my personality and had
(12:55):
rejected it, rejected that thatpart of myself, that shadow part
of myself, instead of what whatI was kind of taught to do was
to be in conscious relationshipwith my anger instead of instead
of suppressing it.
SPEAKER_03 (13:10):
What does that look like?
SPEAKER_00 (13:12):
Well, for me, i it you know, it it looks like just
being honest about the fact thatbecause I think this is speaking
for people in general, I I thinkthat we that sometimes we tend
to lose touch with the fact thatwe're we're we're in some ways
animals and creatures of nature.
And that anger is an instinct.
(13:33):
And that that to try and repressan instinct, I don't think is
healthy.
Right?
It it has a degree ofhealthiness in it at certain
points, but but anger is part ofbeing a human being.
And so I had kind of tried todecide I I wanted to be almost
robotic with my anger and findrobotic solutions to it.
(13:56):
And for me, that just did notwork long term.
SPEAKER_03 (13:59):
Yeah.
No, I can imagine.
And instead, what it sounds likeyou're talking about is just
getting in better relationshipwith the fact that it is real,
it's valid, it exists, right?
Instead of instead of shoving itlike it's some bad thing that
you don't want to associatewith.
SPEAKER_00 (14:15):
Yes, and yeah, exactly.
And that that like, you know,kind of the philosophy in 12
step programs is that it's alsoit's a power greater than
myself.
It's an instinct.
And again, to like consciouslyfight against it is fighting
against your own nature to somedegree.
And that the more I fightagainst my nature, the more that
(14:39):
I become kind of immeshed in it.
It kind of creates the oppositereaction.
SPEAKER_03 (14:44):
Yeah.
Um, well, and I love that, andthat it's it's gonna happen,
right?
It's an emotion.
We all have the human spectrumof all emotions.
And instead of making them orlabeling them good or bad, or
try to only be these, but notthese, and even the other ones,
right?
Instead of not just anger, butresentment, guilt, shame,
anything in the quote, darkerside of things.
(15:05):
Like how do you get to befamiliar with them, to
understand them, to leave spacefor them and navigate your way
through them in a way that'shealthy so that you can continue
moving forward and not juststuff them in a in a pile where
they explode later.
SPEAKER_00 (15:22):
Yes.
No, no, exactly.
Well said.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And um, and that and that themore that I consciously relate
to those parts of myself thateither society or other people
have told me that I need to getrid of, the more that I become
kind of integrated with theseparts of myself that have been
(15:43):
rejected.
SPEAKER_03 (15:44):
Yeah.
In the same token of like lightand dark, I want to ask about
anima and animus.
Can we go into that a littlebit?
SPEAKER_00 (15:53):
Yes, I love I love talking about anima and animus.
And and again, you know, youcould you could just as well say
dog and cat or yin and yang whenwe're talking about the anima
and animus.
But in young psychology, theanima is is for for a male, it's
(16:15):
it's the hidden feminine part ofthe personality.
And for women, the animus is thehidden part of the female
personality.
And so so that the anima in in amale, which is always easier for
me to talk about, are thoseparts of femininity that, like I
(16:36):
said earlier, mostly through ourfamilies or through society,
that on some level we're we'retaught to reject and we're
taught to not be in relationshipwith because of what people tell
us are the standards of whatwhat either masculinity or
femininity is.
And so in Yunin psychology, andI believe this, if you think of
(17:01):
the symbol of uh of Taoism, theyin and the yang symbol, the
idea is to have the male and thefemale balanced in a personality
as much as you can.
Nobody's gonna have thoseexactly balanced because it's
just not possible.
But but I think that in oursociety, I know for me
(17:23):
personally, that that I had comefrom my childhood with with
actually probably a lot offeminine parts of my
personality, that I was alwaysvery artistic, which is
classically associated with thefemale part of the personality.
I was always very sensitive.
(17:43):
I was always very kind of intouch with my emotions.
And that as I got older, I waskind of taught consciously or
unconsciously by my family orother people to reject those
feminine parts of thepersonality.
And that the more that Irejected those, the more that I
(18:04):
became distant from my trueself.
That again, like those parts ofmyself are healthy and natural
and want to be expressed.
SPEAKER_03 (18:13):
I'm curious what that looked like for you,
rejection or familial tribe,whatever whatever the unit that
you grew up in.
What how did that play out foryou specifically?
SPEAKER_00 (18:24):
Well, I think it I I think it it it mostly and when I
was doing I did some realintense anima work the last time
I was in Switzerland.
And I started thinking about meas a child and how I would how I
would just put on songs when Iwas five or six on the
(18:45):
Scooby-Doo record player.
And I loved just singing songs.
And I love I used to write myown songs when I was a child.
I would write songs and poems,and that that was that was as
interesting to me, if not more,than the traditional masculine
things like sports.
Or, or, you know, like I alwaysremember like I never liked
fighting.
(19:06):
Like I just never likedviolence.
And so I I started thinkingabout how, you know, my father
was, you know, a very masculineman.
He worked for the railroad, hewas very blue-collar, and he was
a good father, but he was alsoreally cut off from that, from
that feminine part of himself.
And that in the where I grew up,if you were if you were to were
(19:29):
to express a lot of femininity,you would be called gay or you'd
be called blur, or somebodywould would tell you to reject
that part of it.
And and so so again, I hadlearned how to really reject
that part of the feminine insidemyself, and I think it was very
damaging to me.
And I think it's damaging tomost people.
SPEAKER_03 (19:52):
Do you can you speak a little bit to the opposite to
the animus as well?
I know it's not your personalexperience, but I'm curious,
just for people listening.
SPEAKER_00 (20:01):
Well, it it it yeah, it again, it's really hard for
me to talk about the animus notbeing female, but but I think I
think the way that it comes outclassically in well, let me put
it to you this way.
Kind of the easiest way that Ithink to to kind of
(20:22):
conceptualize how the animuscomes out negatively in women
would be the classic, would bethe Karen.
The meme of the Karen is w iskind of like you might even call
it like an animus-possessedwoman.
And and that is that is kind oflike where where a woman might
(20:46):
have lost touch a little bitwith that with the nurturing,
creative side and has becomelost in the rigid rule
following, I've got to teachsomebody a lesson side of
themselves.
And so it and so like it's theidea that as far as we've come
(21:08):
in the 20th century, and I'mglad that we did in all the ways
that that women have have gottenout of how they were oppressed
by the patriarchy so much, whichis true, that also that there's
been some disconnect from kindof a woman's natural femininity
in a way.
Right?
That women that women aren'tallowed to kind of keep both of
(21:32):
those things in balance.
Like they have to make a choicebetween either being the career
woman or they have to be ahousewife that takes care of
their children.
And again, like Jungianpsychology is uh about bringing
those two into integration sothat a woman doesn't have to be
(21:52):
put into a box and neither doesa man, that they can be truly
like who they are without allall the ideas that we have to do
what the collective tells us todo.
SPEAKER_03 (22:04):
Yeah.
Um, I've also had the experienceof in younger years being like I
can't be too assertive becausethen I'm bitchy.
But then I'm you know, and thenyou go into things where I'm
trying to stay in a box based onsocial expectations or whatnot.
Um, and try like just findingyour way through that.
It feels like in in my visualthat I'm seeing, it's like a
(22:26):
jungle of like, where can I go?
Can I do this?
I don't know about that.
SPEAKER_00 (22:29):
So not surprisingly, you said it better than I did,
right?
That example you gave of liketelling telling an assertive
woman that they're bitchy is agreat example of how society
would kind of cut off women fromtheir natural, again, kind of
healthy masculine traits ofbeing assertive and saying like,
(22:51):
no, I'm my own individualperson, I can do whatever I
want.
And so that example you gave isa great example of that.
SPEAKER_03 (22:59):
Thank you.
Um I'm curious if you know,we're talking about male and
female, and there's obviouslybeen a lot in recent years with
gender identity, whether it's,you know, trans changing genders
that you know you were atassigned at birth or non-binary.
Do you feel like the masculine,feminine yin-yang cycle is still
(23:22):
applicable no matter how youidentify, or do you think that
changes at all?
SPEAKER_00 (23:26):
I I'm sure it changes.
And I I and and under I'm underno illusions that I have any
idea about what it's like to bein that situation either.
But yes, I do think it is still,I I think there is something
there that everybody couldbenefit from.
And I think again, like likewhat I work with people with to
(23:50):
kind of stay out of that debate,and what what I really look at
is that what Jungian psychologyis talking about, not the
external so much as theinternal.
So it's talking about theinternal psychic state more than
what's going on in in the body.
I mean, the body is part of it,but it's more talking about the
(24:12):
masculine and feminine forcesinside you.
Right.
And again, and I think itdoesn't matter what you identify
in, because again, like the ideathat yin and yang idea or the
dog and cat idea, we're justtalking about these emotions and
these psychic states that are inpeople.
unknown (24:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:33):
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:34):
And so so I think, you know, I I think that answers
it a little bit, but again, likewhat what I would say again,
working with a lot of young men,it is that I think there's been
some of that push that I thinkis unhealthy in our society is
that idea that all masculinityis toxic.
SPEAKER_03 (24:55):
Yes.
Say more about that.
SPEAKER_00 (24:58):
Well, I don't think all masculinity is toxic at all.
I think that there's a veryhealthy masculinity.
And I think that I think part ofwhat's happened is that there's
a pseudo-masculinity in ourculture.
And the pseudo-masculinity withthe with the conquests, sexual
(25:19):
conquests, and how many steroidscan I take, and how buff can I
be, and that, you know, I don'ttake any shit from anybody, and
da-da-da.
That's kind of apseudo-masculinity.
But a healthy masculinity iscalm, gentle, supportive, but it
(25:39):
also has a strength to it,right?
And that strength is somethingthat, and it's assertive in the
same way.
And I work work with a lot ofyoung men that I think are very
confused about whether or notthere's even such a thing as a
healthy masculinity.
And and again, I think there isin the same way that I think
(26:00):
there's such a thing asunhealthy feminine behavior and
healthy feminine behavior.
And that's up to the individualto decide.
But again, I know that's true.
And healthy masculinity issomething I'm really big on
because I think it's one of theways that our culture is so
polarized between these twoideas, as they're polarized
(26:24):
between everything.
And again, like kind of one ofthe one of the fundamentals of
Jungian psychology is the unionof opposites.
Right?
Yeah.
In our society and in theindividual himself.
And so again, it's that idea oflike uh a healthy masculinity is
gonna be something that otherpeople are gonna want to aspire
(26:48):
to, and that they can be okaywith who they are as a man, and
that who they are as a mandoesn't have to fit some kind of
formula that's laid out by asociety or somebody that's on
YouTube talking about kind ofthat toxic masculinity, which I
do believe exists.
There is such a thing as toxicmasculinity.
SPEAKER_03 (27:08):
So I'm curious if you have someone who is in this
face of willingness to look atthis in themselves and work on
it, and they start to change, ormaybe are afraid of changing
because of the responses orpotential responses of the
people around them, right?
Their family, their friends, thepeople that have only known them
to be the way that they havebeen.
(27:30):
They have an expectation thatthis person is gonna keep
showing up the way that theyhave always been, and that
person is really looking tochange.
How do you how would you helpthem just just how to start
thinking differently about thefact that you are gonna show up
differently and other people maylike or not like that response?
SPEAKER_00 (27:50):
Well, it's a good question.
And I but I think, you know, asyou know, I I think that I think
that's true in any kind ofchange in an individual.
I think that that's true anybodythat goes that gets in recovery
and starts to change, or goes totherapy and starts to change, is
that, you know, there's certainroles that our families in
(28:12):
society, they would like to keepus in these certain roles.
unknown (28:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:16):
And so and so I I'm just really big on the work with
my clients that I do is that isreally breaking some of these
psychological chains where I'mtoo dependent on what other
people think I'm supposed to be.
SPEAKER_03 (28:33):
Yeah.
And then that's a great way toput that.
SPEAKER_00 (28:36):
Yeah, and that really that that a healthy
individuality too, like we allcare what people think,
everybody does, but thatultimately the self or the
higher self is what I shouldrely on for who I am and not
other people's opinions of me.
SPEAKER_03 (28:56):
Yeah.
And what would you tell people,again, like you said, whether
it's masculine, feminine, orjust change in general about the
way that they've expected you tobe if you've chosen to start
showing up differently, how doyou have them to let go of what
other people think and sort ofembrace that more?
Like what what helps the most interms of in some spaces you will
(29:19):
lose people completely.
SPEAKER_00 (29:21):
Yes.
Yeah, I think that's true.
Sure.
I I I think it's I thinksometimes it's a grieving
process.
I mean, sometimes sometimes itis about really setting
completely different boundarieswith individuals.
SPEAKER_01 (29:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
And and you know, I I work a lot on healthy
communication and assertivenesswith clients.
And it's just saying to people,I understand that this is the
way it used to be, but this iswho I am now and this is what
I'm comfortable with.
And I I really hope that you'llaccept that.
SPEAKER_03 (29:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:55):
And and I always tell clients, and if they don't,
then I've got decisions to make.
SPEAKER_03 (30:00):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (30:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (30:02):
And have done that.
Yeah.
And that's been there have beenpeople that have come with me,
absolutely, and like couldn't bemy biggest cheerleaders.
There are people that havestayed somewhere in the middle
ground and maybe therelationship has changed a
little bit, but they're stillthere.
And there have been some thatI've chosen to to let go of, you
know, because it wasn't good forme anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (30:23):
Can you add a little bit about how you did that,
about how you were kind of Sure.
SPEAKER_03 (30:28):
Um I think I think the first thing is I had to get
right with me before Iapproached anyone externally.
And I had to make those choicesabout, you know, answering those
questions, who who have I beenif I'm being honest about it?
How have I showed up?
What have I avoided or not dealtwith?
And what parts of those thingsno longer serve me, right?
(30:49):
That I need to let go of.
And in the process of that, thenyou kind of move towards, okay,
now if we've decided these arethings that aren't doing me any
justice, you get to sort of, I Ialways I had fun with it in the
sense of like a blank canvas.
Who do I want to become?
And and you can just pickanything, right?
We're just the dream version ofme does all these things.
(31:11):
This is kind of what she lookslike.
Um, and then I went to work onon what does that actually look
like?
Where is this old parts of meshowing up?
Where do I need to sit withthat, address it, make different
choices, right?
Where do I need to, you know,this person used to walk all
over me.
How do I learn to set aboundary?
What does that look like?
(31:31):
And then the bigger part of thatspecific thing for me was how do
I uphold the boundary?
SPEAKER_01 (31:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:37):
And then sort of as I'm navigating that, the things
in me are showing me how peopleare responding to those changes
as I go.
But it really started with whodo I want to be first?
And then in the navigation ofthat, once I sort of committed
to me, noticing who's availablefor that change.
(31:57):
Um, and it was some of it wasuncomfortable, some of it was
direct conversations.
I'm a fairly direct human.
So I would sit down and be like,hey, you know, this is a thing,
or I don't do this anymore.
Or um, and then there's theother, you know, and I think
everyone is different, butsometimes there's like what they
call the slow ghost, which iswhere you just sort of make
(32:18):
yourself less available forsomeone and you're not, you
know, you just sort of back outof the room, as it were.
And those a lot of those I foundtook care of themselves because
anyone that really wasn'tcommitted didn't really miss you
anyway.
So yeah, I think it was case bycase, but it really started with
me before I had to get who do Iwant to be before I ask anyone
(32:38):
else what they think.
And what do I think?
Right.
I spent a long time asking thatother question instead of asking
my own opinion.
SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
Well, yeah, and that that's well said too, because I
I think, you know, that's again,that's one of the things that
attracts me to young youthpsychology too, is that that it
it is, it begins with what Ithink and not what other people
think I should be or how theyperceive me, and really looking
(33:08):
at for myself thatpeople-pleasing part of me,
which I know was a survivalskill, but knowing that that
part of my personality no longerserves me anymore.
SPEAKER_03 (33:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
That was needed at a certain time in my life.
I understand the I understandhow that behavior comes from my
parents in society, but I don'twant to live the rest of my life
that way because I don't think Ican live the kind of life that I
want to live by doing that.
SPEAKER_03 (33:37):
Yes, that was great.
Yeah.
Um, and yeah, and it was reallyit there was a lot of freedom
for me in asking and answeringthose questions.
What do I like, like to be alittle bit dramatic, like this
is my one, you know, wild andprecious life.
What do I want to do with it?
And who do I want to be?
And really to sit with that andto, I think first also give
(33:58):
myself permission to change.
Like this is I've beenfunctioning for so long on how
what I think other people thinkI should be, which is a lot of
assumptions.
SPEAKER_02 (34:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:10):
And, you know, which of these, what do I actually
want to be?
And what does that look like?
SPEAKER_00 (34:16):
Yes.
Yeah.
And again, the Jungianpsychology is really big about,
you know, of course, we're allin the collective, we're all in
society, we all have rules wehave to abide by.
But it's kind of this idea oflike part of that that
individuation process is kind ofasking myself, now what do I
really believe about myself?
(34:38):
And what have I just been toldthat this is expected of me?
SPEAKER_02 (34:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:42):
Right.
And and looking at that from alot of different ways, do I
really believe this, or is thisjust something I've repeated for
the past 30 years because I wastold that?
SPEAKER_03 (34:52):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
unknown (34:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:54):
And you sort of like, at least I, I it was sort
of a sponge at different points,and I realized that I I
literally had to ask what yousaid, which is, is this mine?
unknown (35:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (35:05):
Is this, is this mine?
Do I actually think this?
Is this true?
Or what have I absorbed fromwhat I've been told or what
people told me that I should orshouldn't do or be?
And a lot of it, just to beclear also is well intended, or
was at least for me.
It's not always, you know,people shaming or berating or
(35:26):
those kinds of things.
It can be, certainly.
But a lot of my experience hadbeen just people who came before
me who didn't know what theydidn't know.
And it can be as limitingbeliefs about yourself or what's
possible for you in the worldbased on the people around you.
And so I got in that seat ofwhat is sort of the pace of the
(35:48):
life of the people that I grewup in, whether that's um, you
know, demographics or financialsituations, like what kind of
seat in society do you have andare you living at?
And what do I think about that?
Can I, can I do more with that?
Can I do something different?
You know, this is kind of theway it's always been done in my
family or in my neighborhood orin my church or whatever, you
(36:10):
know, whatever thing you want togo with.
But to sort of look at which ofthose things are maybe up for do
up for negotiation.
You know, can I change?
SPEAKER_00 (36:19):
Absolutely.
So yeah.
And and some of those, some ofthose traditions and some of
those beliefs I took a look atand said, no, I do want to keep
those.
SPEAKER_02 (36:29):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (36:29):
And some of them I said, no, I I I don't think I
don't think I really I don'tthink that is really who I am.
I think that's who I thought Iwas supposed to be.
SPEAKER_03 (36:38):
Yes, I did the same.
And then some of that led metill physical changes where I
moved out of state to a placewhere I didn't know anyone.
I like literally, not a singleperson, and thought, you know,
and I had I was not sober atthat time.
I was dealing with some otherstuff.
But that was kind of my firststep into change, even though I
hadn't dealt with the sobrietypart yet.
(36:59):
And then later came the sobrietypart.
I had gotten a little bit morestable in in things there.
I was like, I think, I thinkit's time for me to go look at
that too.
SPEAKER_02 (37:08):
Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (37:09):
And then, yeah, and then it was it's been cool.
Like I say that veryintentionally, like the stages
of things in phases, it's not,it's not just a straight line or
all uphill.
It's like, oh, I got this part,and then kind of like a tree.
Like there's the foundation, andthen you can grow into different
branches once you have a moresolid foundation.
And sometimes you go back.
(37:30):
Sometimes I'm like, oh, there'sa thing still down there that I
need to go back to.
SPEAKER_02 (37:34):
Yeah, sure, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (37:35):
But it's been a really cool experience in in
terms of asking those questionsand then building the muscle,
muscles that helped me toactually lean into doing the
things that have taken me tobecome more of that kind of
person that the previous versionof me didn't know she could be.
SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah, and for me it was reallywatching too how much, because
you know, these are part ofthose those complexes, how much
at a certain point the societyor the family puts those beliefs
into my psyche, but then I hadto look at, well, I'm 50 years
(38:16):
old, and really these things arestill in my brain telling me who
I should be.
SPEAKER_03 (38:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (38:22):
Right?
Some of those people aren't evenaround anymore.
Yes.
But they still exist inside ofme, telling me these things.
And again, that's that's where Ithink the the the real progress
starts, is where I see that it'snot the external things that are
that I think are oppressing meanymore.
It's my own psychologicalcondition that keeps telling me
(38:44):
all these things over and overagain that may or may not be
true.
SPEAKER_03 (38:48):
Yes, I love that.
And I like in my brain, it workslike if I'm a computer and I
have some outdated software.
You know, I'm like, oh, this isstill an old program that's
running over here.
And my you know, when I grew up,there were floppy disks and
other things and comp, you know,which is not a thing anymore.
But I just like to visuallythink of it like that, like, oh,
(39:09):
that's just an old it's just anold part of my program I need to
update.
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (39:14):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (39:15):
But instead of taking it to be sometimes it can
feel really heavy, like I'mcarrying this thing that I've
always been this way, thatwhatever, and sort of lightening
it to be like, I don't I don't Idon't have to do that anymore.
That's a joke that I can workthrough that that process.
SPEAKER_00 (39:29):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (39:31):
Um something else I want to ask about, which is one
of my favorite things to talkabout in recovery world in
general, is emotional sobriety.
SPEAKER_00 (39:39):
Yes.
Well, yeah, I I mean it's allconnected to, again, for me, the
youngin' psychology and my wholejourney, you know, all the
therapies I've done too, for me,I think being emotionally sober
just means that I'm being myauthenti authentic self as much
(40:00):
as I can.
SPEAKER_03 (40:01):
Well, and can you explain a little bit more about
the actual definition of it,just in case anyone doesn't
know?
SPEAKER_00 (40:07):
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of I mean, there's
a lot of different definitionsof it.
I mean, you know, as far back asin the 1950s, you know, Bill
Wilson, the founder of AA, wastalking about emotional sobriety
because he noticed that after AAhad been around for a lot of
years, and he noticed abouthimself that people were still
really struggling with a lot ofother issues.
(40:29):
And, you know, I've thoughtabout it a lot, and I'm I'm
working on a book aboutemotional sobriety right now.
And to me, emotional sobriety isjust that you keep trying to
evolve.
And it's not a state that youget to, such as like I'm sober
or not sober.
(40:50):
But I think emotional sobrietyis just being willing to stay on
the path of evolution.
And I I think that again, whatpeople in recovery struggle with
is thinking that emotionalsobriety is about being perfect.
And emotional sobriety is notabout being perfect because you
know they they used to, when Igot sober, they would what they
(41:13):
would talk about was peoplebeing dry drunks.
And when they were talking aboutdry drunks, they were talking
about people that weren'temotionally sober.
But the truth is, anybody, ifyou've like me and have been
sober for 25 years, you're gonnabe a dry drunk sometimes.
All of us are gonna beemotionally unsober sometimes.
Again, that's just part of beinga human being.
(41:35):
But I think the people that canget closest to that emotional
sobriety place is is refusing toget to a place of
self-satisfaction.
And you know, my you know, oneof my one of my favorite quotes
from Buddhism that is kind ofthe name of my my private
practice, kind of stems fromthis is that you are perfect
(41:57):
exactly the way you are, and youcould use a little improvement.
SPEAKER_03 (42:02):
I like it.
SPEAKER_00 (42:04):
And that's kind of the best mentality, I think, for
emotional sobriety is is trulyloving yourself, which I think
is a huge part of emotionalsobriety.
Is truly loving yourself.
And then also continuing on thepath to self-improvement,
individuation, knowing the self,whatever that is.
(42:26):
But I think emotionally soberpeople are the ones that keep
trying.
SPEAKER_03 (42:31):
Yeah, I would say that I didn't if anyone ever
asks, I always say that beingsober didn't make my life get
better, the sobriety in and ofitself.
But it gave me the space tocreate the time, effort, and
energy to put into the thingsthat did.
SPEAKER_00 (42:47):
Well, definitely.
I mean, I I I mean, again, likesobriety gives us the ch we've
got a fighting chance to do thesort of things that you're
talking about, you know.
But again, it is it is just thebeginning.
And uh I know for me, you know,I I've said this many times to
clients, the the path for metoward emotional sobriety has
(43:11):
really been about learning totruly love and accept myself.
That that's been a huge part ofit.
And I think that's one of themost difficult things for people
in sobriety is truly lovingthemselves.
SPEAKER_03 (43:24):
How do you yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (43:26):
No, no, go ahead, Est.
SPEAKER_03 (43:27):
I know that's a big struggle for people.
SPEAKER_00 (43:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:31):
Um how do you help them work towards that?
I thought for many years thatliking myself meant I had to do
more yoga or meditation.
And while those things are good,I think that what helped me the
most to like myself so much moredirectly related to the choices
that I make.
SPEAKER_00 (43:51):
Well, I think that's a huge part of it.
I I think it again, it's hard tolove yourself when you're doing
things that cause you continualshame.
And so I I can't, you know,again, I see this a lot with
clients too, is that you know,if if using drugs, not using
drugs, but if I engage inbehavior that continues to
(44:12):
reinforce that shame core insideme, that love of myself is going
to be really, excuse me, hard toachieve.
But but if I can if I canoperate by first starting not to
do things that reproduce thatshame over and over.
And then kind of what I talkedabout earlier, that loving
myself is also what I found forme is re-engaging with those
(44:38):
parts of my personality or partsof myself that I felt like I had
to reject or that someone toldme were not good or were not
wholesome.
And of course, anybody thatgrows up has a history of
trauma, you know, trauma byitself is is gonna cause people
to have great difficulty lovingthemselves.
(44:59):
So we have to split those peopleaway from their trauma and make
them see, help them to see thatthey are not the trauma and not
the things that happen to them.
And so that they can reallyrealize, you know, and this is a
process too, of like who I am atmy core, right?
Who I am with all aspects of mypersonality shining through.
(45:21):
And for me, that includes thatspiritual aspect too.
That I had that I believe, youknow, in my experiences that
again, like a person's spirit ora s or their soul or their
higher self is untouched by allthe trauma and all the things
that they go through.
(45:41):
And that I want to I wanna knowhow to connect with that.
SPEAKER_03 (45:45):
What has helped you the most, or what would you tell
people if they don't feel agreat connection there?
What helps the most in terms oflearning what it's like to
develop a connection withspirituality?
SPEAKER_00 (45:58):
Yeah, I think it's I think it's all kinds of things,
you know.
I d I I don't know any any onegood answer.
I mean, I think for me early onin my recovery, it was that
thing of I was told in in12-step recovery of like, you
know, we're gonna love you untilyou love yourself.
And so I had to be around peoplethat could see who I was apart
(46:21):
from who I was in my addiction.
And that was a huge part of itwas being around people who
loved me unconditionally.
And then over the years it'skind of evolved into into
certain other areas where youknow, part of my journey in in
young psychology was I Irealized how disconnected I was
from my own body.
(46:42):
And how how starting to exerciseand run and eat healthy was a
huge part of me learning how tolove myself by learning how to
disconnect from the shamefuldialogue that would spin in my
brain and how to talk to myselfnicer was a huge part of that
(47:04):
journey.
How to connect with that innerchild that's in all of us.
And knowing that there's alittle kid in me that is wounded
and that wants me to come rescuehim.
SPEAKER_03 (47:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:17):
And that that child still lives in me and is waiting
for me to connect with him orher.
SPEAKER_03 (47:24):
That's really beautiful the way you said that.
What is spirituality look likefor you today?
Just in general, ongoingrelationship?
SPEAKER_00 (47:33):
Yeah, it's a lot of things.
I mean, I I pay attention to mydreams.
I think that I think there'sspirit in dreams.
I think the unconscious speaksto us.
Spirituality is again, in Youngpsychology, it's looking for
synchronicities.
Where do I where where do I getthese glimpses that maybe
(47:55):
there's something bigger than methat speaks to me through
coincidences or chance meetingswith people, with friendships?
And, you know, I I I read a lotof books on spirituality.
I pray, I meditate.
I think being out in nature is ahuge part of it.
So it again, I think, you know,kind of something I'm really
(48:18):
passionate about, especially inin times of like AI and kind of
computer generated spirituality,is the truth is, is there's not
there's not like a here's tenways to be more spiritual.
Here's you know what I mean?
Like here's here's three waysthat you can become more look
(48:39):
inside yourself and see whatfeeds your spirituality.
What what is what is it that youdo that makes you feel like
you're connected with thathigher part of yourself and then
engage in that and then also forme it's paying attention to like
I said before, what are thethings that that when I do them,
(48:59):
I get that feeling of like Idon't think that's probably a
good idea, Jeff.
Like what things seem todisconnect me from myself.
And then the longer I staysober, I I'm just I'm just very
sensitive to things that thatdon't feel right to me.
And I'm really sensitive to thethings that do feed my
(49:20):
spirituality.
And I just pursue those.
I pr pursue those almostobsessively.
SPEAKER_01 (49:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (49:27):
I I really do.
Uh because again, my life justis much, much better when I'm
pursuing that.
SPEAKER_03 (49:34):
Yeah, I agree.
And mine has gotten a lot moremagical over the last few years
for lack of a better word thatfeels accurate.
Um and all of literallyeverything you said is part of
that, whether it's nature orthings I read, or I also I write
down dreams.
Um mine are a little bit moremetaphorical instead of
(49:59):
specific.
Um but I just have gotten betterat understanding what that means
to me and sort of developing myown language and listening to it
and following it.
And I sort of had to get out ofmy head the idea that there's a
right way to do this.
SPEAKER_02 (50:15):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03 (50:16):
And follow what makes sense to me and kind of
like um things that I thinksociety terms like a coincidence
or a synchronicity is a lotbigger than that, usually.
And I I take it as such, and Ithink when I take it as such and
I say thank you, yes, please,then there comes more because
(50:36):
I'm listening.
Um and I just I have a lot ofevidence to support that that is
real and true and exists, andit's really powerful.
SPEAKER_00 (50:46):
Very powerful, yes.
I love how you said that too,because I you know, uh when you
said magical, and and I and Ithink again, like that that's
something that really is sick inour society, is that is that the
magic's taking away.
(51:07):
And again, that's that'ssomething that's really I want
the magic in the world.
I don't want everything to berationally explained to me
because I know that there arethings that are completely
irrational that have been someof the most beautiful
experiences that I've ever had.
I don't want somebody to I don'tneed to know like every single
(51:30):
thing that the happens in thebrain when you're in love.
Do you know what I mean?
I would much rather experiencethat than have that broken down
into some kind of formula.
unknown (51:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:41):
And I And I think that that's something with with
the just the age that we're in,that some of that magic has been
taken out.
SPEAKER_03 (51:49):
Yeah.
Does that does what you describefit your personality type?
I don't know as much anywherenear as what you probably know.
But like, does that fit who youare in terms of it?
SPEAKER_00 (52:00):
Yeah, well, yes, it does, because I'm I'm an
intuitive introvert.
SPEAKER_03 (52:05):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (52:06):
So my world is is kind of like the inner world is
is as real to me as the outerworld.
SPEAKER_03 (52:14):
Fair.
SPEAKER_00 (52:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (52:16):
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (52:17):
Yeah, and and again, like that's not to say like I'm
extremely grateful for rationalthinking and medical science and
everything that it does.
But at the same time, science isnot meant to explain the
spiritual.
unknown (52:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (52:31):
That has to be that that's supposed to be
experienced more on a differentbasis.
And I think again, that's partof where we get in trouble is
we've c society's kind of likewants to get in everybody else's
space when they'd probably bebetter staying out of it.
SPEAKER_03 (52:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (52:47):
If that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03 (52:48):
It does.
It does.
Is there anything else that youwant to share that we didn't
talk about?
SPEAKER_00 (52:53):
No, I mean, I think, you know, again, I I think we've
talked about a lot.
I've really enjoyed it.
And, you know, I it it it's thething that we talk about, and
and this is part of it too, is,you know, I I think every
individual just has to reallyfind what works for them.
I don't think I don't thinkyounging psychology is
everybody's path or that's whateverybody should be doing.
(53:16):
I don't think recovery is.
I, you know, I think really likethe individual just has to find
for themselves what reallyspeaks to their soul and their
spirit and pursue that.
But I do think that again, in mystudies in analytical
psychology, I think it'ssomething that can really help
people with with their sobrietyand their and and kind of
(53:39):
getting into the ballpark ofwhat emotional sobriety is.
Which is which is again, to me,it's just being my true self.
SPEAKER_03 (53:46):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that was really well said.
And I think again, just if ifanything has helped me the most
in all of this, it's I thinkgetting to know me more in all
of the ways, wh whichever toolsyou use, being honest about
that, and then giving myselfpermission to sort of re-
rewrite the end of the story,you know.
SPEAKER_02 (54:06):
And yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (54:09):
Yeah, I'll I'll kind of, you know, leave you with
this quote, you know, that youknow, Young often said, you
know, I am who I decide to be.
You know, and I think again, Ilike that.
I like that too, because I Ithink that that I can get lost
in this idea that that you knowthat I'm powerless to decide
(54:31):
about what my life is like orwhat it's not like.
And to some degree we we're allpowerless over what life does to
us, but I think I think thehuman spirit does have the power
to say, no, this is the life Iwant to be, and this is the
person that I want to be, and wecan move toward that.
SPEAKER_03 (54:49):
That was very well said.
SPEAKER_00 (54:50):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (54:51):
Thank you so much for just being here, for saying
yes to this, for spending timewith me on a Sunday to to just
go into all the things.
I appreciate that greatly.
SPEAKER_00 (54:59):
Sure, no, I love talking to you and uh anytime.
It was great.
SPEAKER_03 (55:06):
Thank you so much for being here.
It means more than you know.
If you enjoyed this episode,please share it with a friend or
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(55:26):
We'll see you next week.
There are moments in life that split us open.
By unraveling sudden frame ortruths, we didn't know what we
needed.
Until we had no choice.
This podcast is about thosemoments.
It's about the turning pointsthat change us.
The things I wish someone hadtold me that I only understand
in looking back.
Come on in.
You belong here.
(00:20):
And we're gonna talk about allof it.
I'm your host Natanya, and thisis what I didn't know.
Before we begin, a quick note.
This podcast explores themessuch as mental health,
addiction, trauma, and recovery.
While the stories here arehonest and heartfelt, they're
not a substitute forprofessional advice, therapy, or
(00:41):
medical treatment.
Please listen with care andpause anytime you need to.
Take whatever resonates for youand leave the rest.
Today's guest is Jeff Browning.
Jeff was a speaker at an eventthat I was at recently, and
after he was finished, Iapproached him and was like,
Will you please be on the show?
Because I was captivated by muchof what he said.
(01:01):
I think of anything that'shelped me throughout the healing
process, the just overallconcept of psychology and
understanding why I do what Ido, why other people do what
they do, and how I can changemyself and have grace for others
and compassion as we all movethroughout the world has helped
me, I think, the most, just justto understand that there's
(01:24):
reasons for for why all thesethings happen and that we can
change them in order to show updifferently.
Jeff's specialty is in youngpsychology, and so we really
dive into that in this episode,and I just can't wait for you to
hear it.
Here we go.
(01:49):
Like particularly for quite afew weeks now.
So I'm pretty excited thatyou're here.
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
Cool.
Well, I'm so glad to be here.
I've been looking forward to it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (01:57):
And we um for context for listeners, I first
heard Jeff speak at CampRecovery, which is put on by
Cumberland Heights in Nashville.
It's a weekend retreat,essentially, summer camp weekend
in the end of October that Ijust went to a couple weeks ago
and you were there.
And then you finished, and Ijumped on you and was like, Can
(02:17):
you please be on my podcast?
SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was fun.
SPEAKER_03 (02:21):
But before we begin, tell me a little bit about how
you got started and kind of whatbrought you into Youngin
psychology in the first place.
SPEAKER_00 (02:32):
Yeah, well, I, you know, I I got sober through the
12 steps in 2000, and thenstarted working in the field of
addiction in 2002 as a tech atCumberland Heights in the
adolescent program.
And then over the years, I endedup getting my license, and I
(02:54):
worked at Cumberland Heights andI started uh helped start Still
Waters, which was was kind of anall-men's 12-step immersion.
And then I worked at the ranchand really got a lot of training
on trauma after that, and uhworked in a prison for a little
while after I worked at theranch.
And just through my recovery,you know, I've always kind of
(03:16):
been a spiritual seeker.
Uh I studied Buddhism for a lotof years and study a lot of
Christian mystics and anythingrelated to spirituality.
You know, my mother read Youngwhen I was little.
She was a big reader, and so Ihad read some Young in the past.
I've always been an avid reader.
But around 2019, 2020, I kind ofhad a series of dreams around
(03:45):
the time of COVID that kind ofled me to get into analysis,
into youngin analysis.
And I I found an analyst andstarted working with her.
And um, the process was soinspiring for me and so
fulfilling that after a coupleyears, she told me that she
(04:06):
thought I should do sometraining in Youngin psychology.
And so I started going toSwitzerland uh to the Center for
Depth Psychology and have beendoing that for three and a half
years and have and and now am aYoung Yan analyst in training, I
guess.
(04:26):
That's that's kind of how I gotinto it.
And then I've really I've reallycome to believe that Youngin'
psychology can be kind of amissing link for people in
recovery, not just people inrecovery, but specifically now
that I work in private practice,it seems to address a lot of the
issues that many of my clientsstruggle with after years of
(04:49):
sobriety.
SPEAKER_03 (04:51):
I'm so fascinated.
I'm gonna ask you to rewind justa second because I want to know
about the dreams.
SPEAKER_00 (04:58):
Well, it was a very strange dream, but I had this
dream where I was carrying thehead of Hermes, a statue of
Hermes, and I was carrying thehead of this statue, and I I
walked into this really old kindof medieval shop.
(05:23):
And I was in this shop and therewas a man and a woman, and they
they both looked like wizards.
Not that they were dressed likewizards, but uh the woman she
was she was doing a motion withher hands where she was playing
these this stringed instrumentthat vibrated with light, and
(05:43):
the man was he was working onclocks, old mechanical clocks.
They said, Oh, I didn't know youwere coming so soon, but I know
why you're here with the head ofHermes, and I said, Okay, why am
I here?
And they said, Well, you'resupposed to seek young.
And uh I knew immediately whatthey meant when they told me
(06:07):
that.
And so that dream kind ofcatapulted me into the search.
SPEAKER_03 (06:12):
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (06:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:14):
Um I've had a lot of fantastic dreams, which I do not
need to get into right now, butI I love the truth of that.
Um and Hermes is is it the is hethe messenger?
SPEAKER_00 (06:25):
Yes, he is.
SPEAKER_03 (06:26):
Is my right?
SPEAKER_00 (06:27):
Yes.
And kind of kind of themessenger between the spirit
world, too, a lot of the times.
SPEAKER_03 (06:33):
Yeah.
That's awesome.
That's a hell of a way to getstarted.
SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
Yeah, it was it was it was really powerful.
And then started having otherdreams along with that that kind
of kept kept guiding me towardthat path.
SPEAKER_03 (06:45):
Yeah, and you obviously listened.
SPEAKER_00 (06:48):
I did, yes.
SPEAKER_03 (06:51):
I'm curious about you had said at one point that
you felt like that this was amissing link for people not only
in recovery, but just in thehealing process.
What do you think that this,like what specifically, and you
can expand on the psychologyitself if that helps your
answer, but like what about thespecifically do you think is
missing in other things and andthat this provides as a
(07:13):
solution?
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
Well, there's a lot of areas that I that I think
that that it's kind of thatmissing link.
One that I kind of talked aboutin that workshop is kind of the
model of the personality thatJung laid out real early in his
career as far as the thinking,feeling, sensation, and
intuition.
And you know, what I know frommy own recovery and and really
(07:39):
from my experience was thatafter 20 years being sober and
really always being engaged inthe 12 steps and on a spiritual
path, I had become somewhatrigid in my personality and in
my recovery.
And that it I'm not gonna say itgot dull necessarily, but there
(08:01):
was an aspect of that.
But that it it that for myself,I just felt that I was I was
kind of stuck in in in just alittle bit of a rut.
And so it was really big for meto kind of understand this idea
that there were other parts ofmy personality that while
(08:23):
12-step recovery was really goodat developing certain parts of
my personality, there was somemissing pieces that were there
that that I needed to kind ofreawaken.
And Jungian psychology kind ofpointed me in that direction.
And, you know, to you know, andI can be as specific as you
(08:44):
want, but in one of those piecesis is the shadow.
And I I know what happens formyself, you know, in my
addiction, I kind of lived thatshadow for several years where I
wasn't couldn't exactly call mea good person or even a positive
person, but lived in a lot ofdark places and engaged in a lot
(09:06):
of dark behavior.
And when I got sober, I I Iswung to the other side, which I
needed to do, where I got reallygrounded in spiritual principles
and and um and and really andreally kind of pushed an aspect
of my personality into the dark,where I was really afraid of uh
(09:31):
that part of myself that hadbeen had been active in my
addiction.
And what I noticed was that thatthat part of my shadow
personality began to come out inother ways.
It came out kind of sideways.
And again, I s I see this withclients all the time where
people stop their alcohol anddrug use, but they still really
(09:54):
struggle with things likegambling and pornography and uh
a lot of those, you know, whatthey call process addictions
that are in the therapeuticworld.
And and I noticed that kind oftypical modes of dealing with
those weren't as effective asthey needed to be.
(10:16):
And for myself, it was theshadow really came out for me in
a lot of anger that Iexperienced in my sobriety.
And I did a lot of of course Idid tons of trauma therapy and
that helped.
And I did tons of Buddhism andmindfulness, which helped.
But youngin psychology helped memore with my anger than anything
(10:36):
else did.
SPEAKER_03 (10:37):
How specifically did it help you?
SPEAKER_00 (10:41):
Well, because you know, going back to what I was
saying, I I had well, let me saythis to you.
One of the first things myyounging analyst said to me, she
said, she asked if I had anyother addictions.
And I said, Well, I still usenicotine and caffeine, and but
I'm not too worried about those.
But other than that, I really,you know, I really don't gamble.
(11:01):
I really I don't watchpornography, you know.
I I don't think I do.
And she said, Well, I thinkyou're addicted to being good.
And yeah, that's kind of thesame response I had.
And so it kind of it kind ofreally challenged me that, well,
again, like I, you know, I'm abig believer in leaning toward
that positive side, but butagain, neglecting that that
(11:24):
other aspect of my personality,the Jungian idea is that when
you push those parts of yourselfdown into the shadows, they're
gonna come out one way or theother because repression, you
know, as we talk about withfeelings, doesn't get rid of the
feelings, they just come outsideways.
SPEAKER_03 (11:42):
Can you can you explain a little bit more
specifically?
Because I know what you'regetting at, and I use that term
a lot, but for someone whodoesn't know what that means,
then it's coming out sideways.
SPEAKER_00 (11:50):
Yeah, so so again, I would work real, you know, just
using the anger as an example,sure, I would I would work
really hard on kind of the the12-step philosophy of of, you
know, anger is just not, youknow, you're just not well
suited to deal with it.
It's better left to otherpeople.
And again, those parts of I'mnot saying that those parts
(12:10):
weren't helpful, but for me,when I pushed that down, what
would happen was I I would stillhave strong feelings of anger
that I would repress, you know,not on a daily basis, but that
would come up every coupleweeks, and I would push those
down, and I would push thosedown, and then it would show
itself in a sudden outburst oftemper.
(12:32):
Whether that be on the road orwhether that be, you know, in a
store, or if somebody I justfelt crossed me, I would I would
be kind of overwhelmed by thisanger.
And that's because again, I Ireally found out that I was
disconnected from that feelingpart of my personality and had
(12:55):
rejected it, rejected that thatpart of myself, that shadow part
of myself, instead of what whatI was kind of taught to do was
to be in conscious relationshipwith my anger instead of instead
of suppressing it.
SPEAKER_03 (13:10):
What does that look like?
SPEAKER_00 (13:12):
Well, for me, i it you know, it it looks like just
being honest about the fact thatbecause I think this is speaking
for people in general, I I thinkthat we that sometimes we tend
to lose touch with the fact thatwe're we're we're in some ways
animals and creatures of nature.
And that anger is an instinct.
(13:33):
And that that to try and repressan instinct, I don't think is
healthy.
Right?
It it has a degree ofhealthiness in it at certain
points, but but anger is part ofbeing a human being.
And so I had kind of tried todecide I I wanted to be almost
robotic with my anger and findrobotic solutions to it.
(13:56):
And for me, that just did notwork long term.
SPEAKER_03 (13:59):
Yeah.
No, I can imagine.
And instead, what it sounds likeyou're talking about is just
getting in better relationshipwith the fact that it is real,
it's valid, it exists, right?
Instead of instead of shoving itlike it's some bad thing that
you don't want to associatewith.
SPEAKER_00 (14:15):
Yes, and yeah, exactly.
And that that like, you know,kind of the philosophy in 12
step programs is that it's alsoit's a power greater than
myself.
It's an instinct.
And again, to like consciouslyfight against it is fighting
against your own nature to somedegree.
And that the more I fightagainst my nature, the more that
(14:39):
I become kind of immeshed in it.
It kind of creates the oppositereaction.
SPEAKER_03 (14:44):
Yeah.
Um, well, and I love that, andthat it's it's gonna happen,
right?
It's an emotion.
We all have the human spectrumof all emotions.
And instead of making them orlabeling them good or bad, or
try to only be these, but notthese, and even the other ones,
right?
Instead of not just anger, butresentment, guilt, shame,
anything in the quote, darkerside of things.
(15:05):
Like how do you get to befamiliar with them, to
understand them, to leave spacefor them and navigate your way
through them in a way that'shealthy so that you can continue
moving forward and not juststuff them in a in a pile where
they explode later.
SPEAKER_00 (15:22):
Yes.
No, no, exactly.
Well said.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And um, and that and that themore that I consciously relate
to those parts of myself thateither society or other people
have told me that I need to getrid of, the more that I become
kind of integrated with theseparts of myself that have been
(15:43):
rejected.
SPEAKER_03 (15:44):
Yeah.
In the same token of like lightand dark, I want to ask about
anima and animus.
Can we go into that a littlebit?
SPEAKER_00 (15:53):
Yes, I love I love talking about anima and animus.
And and again, you know, youcould you could just as well say
dog and cat or yin and yang whenwe're talking about the anima
and animus.
But in young psychology, theanima is is for for a male, it's
(16:15):
it's the hidden feminine part ofthe personality.
And for women, the animus is thehidden part of the female
personality.
And so so that the anima in in amale, which is always easier for
me to talk about, are thoseparts of femininity that, like I
(16:36):
said earlier, mostly through ourfamilies or through society,
that on some level we're we'retaught to reject and we're
taught to not be in relationshipwith because of what people tell
us are the standards of whatwhat either masculinity or
femininity is.
And so in Yunin psychology, andI believe this, if you think of
(17:01):
the symbol of uh of Taoism, theyin and the yang symbol, the
idea is to have the male and thefemale balanced in a personality
as much as you can.
Nobody's gonna have thoseexactly balanced because it's
just not possible.
But but I think that in oursociety, I know for me
(17:23):
personally, that that I had comefrom my childhood with with
actually probably a lot offeminine parts of my
personality, that I was alwaysvery artistic, which is
classically associated with thefemale part of the personality.
I was always very sensitive.
(17:43):
I was always very kind of intouch with my emotions.
And that as I got older, I waskind of taught consciously or
unconsciously by my family orother people to reject those
feminine parts of thepersonality.
And that the more that Irejected those, the more that I
(18:04):
became distant from my trueself.
That again, like those parts ofmyself are healthy and natural
and want to be expressed.
SPEAKER_03 (18:13):
I'm curious what that looked like for you,
rejection or familial tribe,whatever whatever the unit that
you grew up in.
What how did that play out foryou specifically?
SPEAKER_00 (18:24):
Well, I think it I I think it it it mostly and when I
was doing I did some realintense anima work the last time
I was in Switzerland.
And I started thinking about meas a child and how I would how I
would just put on songs when Iwas five or six on the
(18:45):
Scooby-Doo record player.
And I loved just singing songs.
And I love I used to write myown songs when I was a child.
I would write songs and poems,and that that was that was as
interesting to me, if not more,than the traditional masculine
things like sports.
Or, or, you know, like I alwaysremember like I never liked
fighting.
(19:06):
Like I just never likedviolence.
And so I I started thinkingabout how, you know, my father
was, you know, a very masculineman.
He worked for the railroad, hewas very blue-collar, and he was
a good father, but he was alsoreally cut off from that, from
that feminine part of himself.
And that in the where I grew up,if you were if you were to were
(19:29):
to express a lot of femininity,you would be called gay or you'd
be called blur, or somebodywould would tell you to reject
that part of it.
And and so so again, I hadlearned how to really reject
that part of the feminine insidemyself, and I think it was very
damaging to me.
And I think it's damaging tomost people.
SPEAKER_03 (19:52):
Do you can you speak a little bit to the opposite to
the animus as well?
I know it's not your personalexperience, but I'm curious,
just for people listening.
SPEAKER_00 (20:01):
Well, it it it yeah, it again, it's really hard for
me to talk about the animus notbeing female, but but I think I
think the way that it comes outclassically in well, let me put
it to you this way.
Kind of the easiest way that Ithink to to kind of
(20:22):
conceptualize how the animuscomes out negatively in women
would be the classic, would bethe Karen.
The meme of the Karen is w iskind of like you might even call
it like an animus-possessedwoman.
And and that is that is kind oflike where where a woman might
(20:46):
have lost touch a little bitwith that with the nurturing,
creative side and has becomelost in the rigid rule
following, I've got to teachsomebody a lesson side of
themselves.
And so it and so like it's theidea that as far as we've come
(21:08):
in the 20th century, and I'mglad that we did in all the ways
that that women have have gottenout of how they were oppressed
by the patriarchy so much, whichis true, that also that there's
been some disconnect from kindof a woman's natural femininity
in a way.
Right?
That women that women aren'tallowed to kind of keep both of
(21:32):
those things in balance.
Like they have to make a choicebetween either being the career
woman or they have to be ahousewife that takes care of
their children.
And again, like Jungianpsychology is uh about bringing
those two into integration sothat a woman doesn't have to be
(21:52):
put into a box and neither doesa man, that they can be truly
like who they are without allall the ideas that we have to do
what the collective tells us todo.
SPEAKER_03 (22:04):
Yeah.
Um, I've also had the experienceof in younger years being like I
can't be too assertive becausethen I'm bitchy.
But then I'm you know, and thenyou go into things where I'm
trying to stay in a box based onsocial expectations or whatnot.
Um, and try like just findingyour way through that.
It feels like in in my visualthat I'm seeing, it's like a
(22:26):
jungle of like, where can I go?
Can I do this?
I don't know about that.
SPEAKER_00 (22:29):
So not surprisingly, you said it better than I did,
right?
That example you gave of liketelling telling an assertive
woman that they're bitchy is agreat example of how society
would kind of cut off women fromtheir natural, again, kind of
healthy masculine traits ofbeing assertive and saying like,
(22:51):
no, I'm my own individualperson, I can do whatever I
want.
And so that example you gave isa great example of that.
SPEAKER_03 (22:59):
Thank you.
Um I'm curious if you know,we're talking about male and
female, and there's obviouslybeen a lot in recent years with
gender identity, whether it's,you know, trans changing genders
that you know you were atassigned at birth or non-binary.
Do you feel like the masculine,feminine yin-yang cycle is still
(23:22):
applicable no matter how youidentify, or do you think that
changes at all?
SPEAKER_00 (23:26):
I I'm sure it changes.
And I I and and under I'm underno illusions that I have any
idea about what it's like to bein that situation either.
But yes, I do think it is still,I I think there is something
there that everybody couldbenefit from.
And I think again, like likewhat I work with people with to
(23:50):
kind of stay out of that debate,and what what I really look at
is that what Jungian psychologyis talking about, not the
external so much as theinternal.
So it's talking about theinternal psychic state more than
what's going on in in the body.
I mean, the body is part of it,but it's more talking about the
(24:12):
masculine and feminine forcesinside you.
Right.
And again, and I think itdoesn't matter what you identify
in, because again, like the ideathat yin and yang idea or the
dog and cat idea, we're justtalking about these emotions and
these psychic states that are inpeople.
unknown (24:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:33):
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:34):
And so so I think, you know, I I think that answers
it a little bit, but again, likewhat what I would say again,
working with a lot of young men,it is that I think there's been
some of that push that I thinkis unhealthy in our society is
that idea that all masculinityis toxic.
SPEAKER_03 (24:55):
Yes.
Say more about that.
SPEAKER_00 (24:58):
Well, I don't think all masculinity is toxic at all.
I think that there's a veryhealthy masculinity.
And I think that I think part ofwhat's happened is that there's
a pseudo-masculinity in ourculture.
And the pseudo-masculinity withthe with the conquests, sexual
(25:19):
conquests, and how many steroidscan I take, and how buff can I
be, and that, you know, I don'ttake any shit from anybody, and
da-da-da.
That's kind of apseudo-masculinity.
But a healthy masculinity iscalm, gentle, supportive, but it
(25:39):
also has a strength to it,right?
And that strength is somethingthat, and it's assertive in the
same way.
And I work work with a lot ofyoung men that I think are very
confused about whether or notthere's even such a thing as a
healthy masculinity.
And and again, I think there isin the same way that I think
(26:00):
there's such a thing asunhealthy feminine behavior and
healthy feminine behavior.
And that's up to the individualto decide.
But again, I know that's true.
And healthy masculinity issomething I'm really big on
because I think it's one of theways that our culture is so
polarized between these twoideas, as they're polarized
(26:24):
between everything.
And again, like kind of one ofthe one of the fundamentals of
Jungian psychology is the unionof opposites.
Right?
Yeah.
In our society and in theindividual himself.
And so again, it's that idea oflike uh a healthy masculinity is
gonna be something that otherpeople are gonna want to aspire
(26:48):
to, and that they can be okaywith who they are as a man, and
that who they are as a mandoesn't have to fit some kind of
formula that's laid out by asociety or somebody that's on
YouTube talking about kind ofthat toxic masculinity, which I
do believe exists.
There is such a thing as toxicmasculinity.
SPEAKER_03 (27:08):
So I'm curious if you have someone who is in this
face of willingness to look atthis in themselves and work on
it, and they start to change, ormaybe are afraid of changing
because of the responses orpotential responses of the
people around them, right?
Their family, their friends, thepeople that have only known them
to be the way that they havebeen.
(27:30):
They have an expectation thatthis person is gonna keep
showing up the way that theyhave always been, and that
person is really looking tochange.
How do you how would you helpthem just just how to start
thinking differently about thefact that you are gonna show up
differently and other people maylike or not like that response?
SPEAKER_00 (27:50):
Well, it's a good question.
And I but I think, you know, asyou know, I I think that I think
that's true in any kind ofchange in an individual.
I think that that's true anybodythat goes that gets in recovery
and starts to change, or goes totherapy and starts to change, is
that, you know, there's certainroles that our families in
(28:12):
society, they would like to keepus in these certain roles.
unknown (28:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:16):
And so and so I I'm just really big on the work with
my clients that I do is that isreally breaking some of these
psychological chains where I'mtoo dependent on what other
people think I'm supposed to be.
SPEAKER_03 (28:33):
Yeah.
And then that's a great way toput that.
SPEAKER_00 (28:36):
Yeah, and that really that that a healthy
individuality too, like we allcare what people think,
everybody does, but thatultimately the self or the
higher self is what I shouldrely on for who I am and not
other people's opinions of me.
SPEAKER_03 (28:56):
Yeah.
And what would you tell people,again, like you said, whether
it's masculine, feminine, orjust change in general about the
way that they've expected you tobe if you've chosen to start
showing up differently, how doyou have them to let go of what
other people think and sort ofembrace that more?
Like what what helps the most interms of in some spaces you will
(29:19):
lose people completely.
SPEAKER_00 (29:21):
Yes.
Yeah, I think that's true.
Sure.
I I I think it's I thinksometimes it's a grieving
process.
I mean, sometimes sometimes itis about really setting
completely different boundarieswith individuals.
SPEAKER_01 (29:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
And and you know, I I work a lot on healthy
communication and assertivenesswith clients.
And it's just saying to people,I understand that this is the
way it used to be, but this iswho I am now and this is what
I'm comfortable with.
And I I really hope that you'llaccept that.
SPEAKER_03 (29:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:55):
And and I always tell clients, and if they don't,
then I've got decisions to make.
SPEAKER_03 (30:00):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (30:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (30:02):
And have done that.
Yeah.
And that's been there have beenpeople that have come with me,
absolutely, and like couldn't bemy biggest cheerleaders.
There are people that havestayed somewhere in the middle
ground and maybe therelationship has changed a
little bit, but they're stillthere.
And there have been some thatI've chosen to to let go of, you
know, because it wasn't good forme anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (30:23):
Can you add a little bit about how you did that,
about how you were kind of Sure.
SPEAKER_03 (30:28):
Um I think I think the first thing is I had to get
right with me before Iapproached anyone externally.
And I had to make those choicesabout, you know, answering those
questions, who who have I beenif I'm being honest about it?
How have I showed up?
What have I avoided or not dealtwith?
And what parts of those thingsno longer serve me, right?
(30:49):
That I need to let go of.
And in the process of that, thenyou kind of move towards, okay,
now if we've decided these arethings that aren't doing me any
justice, you get to sort of, I Ialways I had fun with it in the
sense of like a blank canvas.
Who do I want to become?
And and you can just pickanything, right?
We're just the dream version ofme does all these things.
(31:11):
This is kind of what she lookslike.
Um, and then I went to work onon what does that actually look
like?
Where is this old parts of meshowing up?
Where do I need to sit withthat, address it, make different
choices, right?
Where do I need to, you know,this person used to walk all
over me.
How do I learn to set aboundary?
What does that look like?
(31:31):
And then the bigger part of thatspecific thing for me was how do
I uphold the boundary?
SPEAKER_01 (31:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:37):
And then sort of as I'm navigating that, the things
in me are showing me how peopleare responding to those changes
as I go.
But it really started with whodo I want to be first?
And then in the navigation ofthat, once I sort of committed
to me, noticing who's availablefor that change.
(31:57):
Um, and it was some of it wasuncomfortable, some of it was
direct conversations.
I'm a fairly direct human.
So I would sit down and be like,hey, you know, this is a thing,
or I don't do this anymore.
Or um, and then there's theother, you know, and I think
everyone is different, butsometimes there's like what they
call the slow ghost, which iswhere you just sort of make
(32:18):
yourself less available forsomeone and you're not, you
know, you just sort of back outof the room, as it were.
And those a lot of those I foundtook care of themselves because
anyone that really wasn'tcommitted didn't really miss you
anyway.
So yeah, I think it was case bycase, but it really started with
me before I had to get who do Iwant to be before I ask anyone
(32:38):
else what they think.
And what do I think?
Right.
I spent a long time asking thatother question instead of asking
my own opinion.
SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
Well, yeah, and that that's well said too, because I
I think, you know, that's again,that's one of the things that
attracts me to young youthpsychology too, is that that it
it is, it begins with what Ithink and not what other people
think I should be or how theyperceive me, and really looking
(33:08):
at for myself thatpeople-pleasing part of me,
which I know was a survivalskill, but knowing that that
part of my personality no longerserves me anymore.
SPEAKER_03 (33:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
That was needed at a certain time in my life.
I understand the I understandhow that behavior comes from my
parents in society, but I don'twant to live the rest of my life
that way because I don't think Ican live the kind of life that I
want to live by doing that.
SPEAKER_03 (33:37):
Yes, that was great.
Yeah.
Um, and yeah, and it was reallyit there was a lot of freedom
for me in asking and answeringthose questions.
What do I like, like to be alittle bit dramatic, like this
is my one, you know, wild andprecious life.
What do I want to do with it?
And who do I want to be?
And really to sit with that andto, I think first also give
(33:58):
myself permission to change.
Like this is I've beenfunctioning for so long on how
what I think other people thinkI should be, which is a lot of
assumptions.
SPEAKER_02 (34:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:10):
And, you know, which of these, what do I actually
want to be?
And what does that look like?
SPEAKER_00 (34:16):
Yes.
Yeah.
And again, the Jungianpsychology is really big about,
you know, of course, we're allin the collective, we're all in
society, we all have rules wehave to abide by.
But it's kind of this idea oflike part of that that
individuation process is kind ofasking myself, now what do I
really believe about myself?
(34:38):
And what have I just been toldthat this is expected of me?
SPEAKER_02 (34:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:42):
Right.
And and looking at that from alot of different ways, do I
really believe this, or is thisjust something I've repeated for
the past 30 years because I wastold that?
SPEAKER_03 (34:52):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
unknown (34:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:54):
And you sort of like, at least I, I it was sort
of a sponge at different points,and I realized that I I
literally had to ask what yousaid, which is, is this mine?
unknown (35:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (35:05):
Is this, is this mine?
Do I actually think this?
Is this true?
Or what have I absorbed fromwhat I've been told or what
people told me that I should orshouldn't do or be?
And a lot of it, just to beclear also is well intended, or
was at least for me.
It's not always, you know,people shaming or berating or
(35:26):
those kinds of things.
It can be, certainly.
But a lot of my experience hadbeen just people who came before
me who didn't know what theydidn't know.
And it can be as limitingbeliefs about yourself or what's
possible for you in the worldbased on the people around you.
And so I got in that seat ofwhat is sort of the pace of the
(35:48):
life of the people that I grewup in, whether that's um, you
know, demographics or financialsituations, like what kind of
seat in society do you have andare you living at?
And what do I think about that?
Can I, can I do more with that?
Can I do something different?
You know, this is kind of theway it's always been done in my
family or in my neighborhood orin my church or whatever, you
(36:10):
know, whatever thing you want togo with.
But to sort of look at which ofthose things are maybe up for do
up for negotiation.
You know, can I change?
SPEAKER_00 (36:19):
Absolutely.
So yeah.
And and some of those, some ofthose traditions and some of
those beliefs I took a look atand said, no, I do want to keep
those.
SPEAKER_02 (36:29):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (36:29):
And some of them I said, no, I I I don't think I
don't think I really I don'tthink that is really who I am.
I think that's who I thought Iwas supposed to be.
SPEAKER_03 (36:38):
Yes, I did the same.
And then some of that led metill physical changes where I
moved out of state to a placewhere I didn't know anyone.
I like literally, not a singleperson, and thought, you know,
and I had I was not sober atthat time.
I was dealing with some otherstuff.
But that was kind of my firststep into change, even though I
hadn't dealt with the sobrietypart yet.
(36:59):
And then later came the sobrietypart.
I had gotten a little bit morestable in in things there.
I was like, I think, I thinkit's time for me to go look at
that too.
SPEAKER_02 (37:08):
Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (37:09):
And then, yeah, and then it was it's been cool.
Like I say that veryintentionally, like the stages
of things in phases, it's not,it's not just a straight line or
all uphill.
It's like, oh, I got this part,and then kind of like a tree.
Like there's the foundation, andthen you can grow into different
branches once you have a moresolid foundation.
And sometimes you go back.
(37:30):
Sometimes I'm like, oh, there'sa thing still down there that I
need to go back to.
SPEAKER_02 (37:34):
Yeah, sure, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (37:35):
But it's been a really cool experience in in
terms of asking those questionsand then building the muscle,
muscles that helped me toactually lean into doing the
things that have taken me tobecome more of that kind of
person that the previous versionof me didn't know she could be.
SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah, and for me it was reallywatching too how much, because
you know, these are part ofthose those complexes, how much
at a certain point the societyor the family puts those beliefs
into my psyche, but then I hadto look at, well, I'm 50 years
(38:16):
old, and really these things arestill in my brain telling me who
I should be.
SPEAKER_03 (38:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (38:22):
Right?
Some of those people aren't evenaround anymore.
Yes.
But they still exist inside ofme, telling me these things.
And again, that's that's where Ithink the the the real progress
starts, is where I see that it'snot the external things that are
that I think are oppressing meanymore.
It's my own psychologicalcondition that keeps telling me
(38:44):
all these things over and overagain that may or may not be
true.
SPEAKER_03 (38:48):
Yes, I love that.
And I like in my brain, it workslike if I'm a computer and I
have some outdated software.
You know, I'm like, oh, this isstill an old program that's
running over here.
And my you know, when I grew up,there were floppy disks and
other things and comp, you know,which is not a thing anymore.
But I just like to visuallythink of it like that, like, oh,
(39:09):
that's just an old it's just anold part of my program I need to
update.
That's right.
SPEAKER_02 (39:14):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (39:15):
But instead of taking it to be sometimes it can
feel really heavy, like I'mcarrying this thing that I've
always been this way, thatwhatever, and sort of lightening
it to be like, I don't I don't Idon't have to do that anymore.
That's a joke that I can workthrough that that process.
SPEAKER_00 (39:29):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (39:31):
Um something else I want to ask about, which is one
of my favorite things to talkabout in recovery world in
general, is emotional sobriety.
SPEAKER_00 (39:39):
Yes.
Well, yeah, I I mean it's allconnected to, again, for me, the
youngin' psychology and my wholejourney, you know, all the
therapies I've done too, for me,I think being emotionally sober
just means that I'm being myauthenti authentic self as much
(40:00):
as I can.
SPEAKER_03 (40:01):
Well, and can you explain a little bit more about
the actual definition of it,just in case anyone doesn't
know?
SPEAKER_00 (40:07):
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of I mean, there's
a lot of different definitionsof it.
I mean, you know, as far back asin the 1950s, you know, Bill
Wilson, the founder of AA, wastalking about emotional sobriety
because he noticed that after AAhad been around for a lot of
years, and he noticed abouthimself that people were still
really struggling with a lot ofother issues.
(40:29):
And, you know, I've thoughtabout it a lot, and I'm I'm
working on a book aboutemotional sobriety right now.
And to me, emotional sobriety isjust that you keep trying to
evolve.
And it's not a state that youget to, such as like I'm sober
or not sober.
(40:50):
But I think emotional sobrietyis just being willing to stay on
the path of evolution.
And I I think that again, whatpeople in recovery struggle with
is thinking that emotionalsobriety is about being perfect.
And emotional sobriety is notabout being perfect because you
know they they used to, when Igot sober, they would what they
(41:13):
would talk about was peoplebeing dry drunks.
And when they were talking aboutdry drunks, they were talking
about people that weren'temotionally sober.
But the truth is, anybody, ifyou've like me and have been
sober for 25 years, you're gonnabe a dry drunk sometimes.
All of us are gonna beemotionally unsober sometimes.
Again, that's just part of beinga human being.
(41:35):
But I think the people that canget closest to that emotional
sobriety place is is refusing toget to a place of
self-satisfaction.
And you know, my you know, oneof my one of my favorite quotes
from Buddhism that is kind ofthe name of my my private
practice, kind of stems fromthis is that you are perfect
(41:57):
exactly the way you are, and youcould use a little improvement.
SPEAKER_03 (42:02):
I like it.
SPEAKER_00 (42:04):
And that's kind of the best mentality, I think, for
emotional sobriety is is trulyloving yourself, which I think
is a huge part of emotionalsobriety.
Is truly loving yourself.
And then also continuing on thepath to self-improvement,
individuation, knowing the self,whatever that is.
(42:26):
But I think emotionally soberpeople are the ones that keep
trying.
SPEAKER_03 (42:31):
Yeah, I would say that I didn't if anyone ever
asks, I always say that beingsober didn't make my life get
better, the sobriety in and ofitself.
But it gave me the space tocreate the time, effort, and
energy to put into the thingsthat did.
SPEAKER_00 (42:47):
Well, definitely.
I mean, I I I mean, again, likesobriety gives us the ch we've
got a fighting chance to do thesort of things that you're
talking about, you know.
But again, it is it is just thebeginning.
And uh I know for me, you know,I I've said this many times to
clients, the the path for metoward emotional sobriety has
(43:11):
really been about learning totruly love and accept myself.
That that's been a huge part ofit.
And I think that's one of themost difficult things for people
in sobriety is truly lovingthemselves.
SPEAKER_03 (43:24):
How do you yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (43:26):
No, no, go ahead, Est.
SPEAKER_03 (43:27):
I know that's a big struggle for people.
SPEAKER_00 (43:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:31):
Um how do you help them work towards that?
I thought for many years thatliking myself meant I had to do
more yoga or meditation.
And while those things are good,I think that what helped me the
most to like myself so much moredirectly related to the choices
that I make.
SPEAKER_00 (43:51):
Well, I think that's a huge part of it.
I I think it again, it's hard tolove yourself when you're doing
things that cause you continualshame.
And so I I can't, you know,again, I see this a lot with
clients too, is that you know,if if using drugs, not using
drugs, but if I engage inbehavior that continues to
(44:12):
reinforce that shame core insideme, that love of myself is going
to be really, excuse me, hard toachieve.
But but if I can if I canoperate by first starting not to
do things that reproduce thatshame over and over.
And then kind of what I talkedabout earlier, that loving
myself is also what I found forme is re-engaging with those
(44:38):
parts of my personality or partsof myself that I felt like I had
to reject or that someone toldme were not good or were not
wholesome.
And of course, anybody thatgrows up has a history of
trauma, you know, trauma byitself is is gonna cause people
to have great difficulty lovingthemselves.
(44:59):
So we have to split those peopleaway from their trauma and make
them see, help them to see thatthey are not the trauma and not
the things that happen to them.
And so that they can reallyrealize, you know, and this is a
process too, of like who I am atmy core, right?
Who I am with all aspects of mypersonality shining through.
(45:21):
And for me, that includes thatspiritual aspect too.
That I had that I believe, youknow, in my experiences that
again, like a person's spirit ora s or their soul or their
higher self is untouched by allthe trauma and all the things
that they go through.
(45:41):
And that I want to I wanna knowhow to connect with that.
SPEAKER_03 (45:45):
What has helped you the most, or what would you tell
people if they don't feel agreat connection there?
What helps the most in terms oflearning what it's like to
develop a connection withspirituality?
SPEAKER_00 (45:58):
Yeah, I think it's I think it's all kinds of things,
you know.
I d I I don't know any any onegood answer.
I mean, I think for me early onin my recovery, it was that
thing of I was told in in12-step recovery of like, you
know, we're gonna love you untilyou love yourself.
And so I had to be around peoplethat could see who I was apart
(46:21):
from who I was in my addiction.
And that was a huge part of itwas being around people who
loved me unconditionally.
And then over the years it'skind of evolved into into
certain other areas where youknow, part of my journey in in
young psychology was I Irealized how disconnected I was
from my own body.
(46:42):
And how how starting to exerciseand run and eat healthy was a
huge part of me learning how tolove myself by learning how to
disconnect from the shamefuldialogue that would spin in my
brain and how to talk to myselfnicer was a huge part of that
(47:04):
journey.
How to connect with that innerchild that's in all of us.
And knowing that there's alittle kid in me that is wounded
and that wants me to come rescuehim.
SPEAKER_03 (47:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:17):
And that that child still lives in me and is waiting
for me to connect with him orher.
SPEAKER_03 (47:24):
That's really beautiful the way you said that.
What is spirituality look likefor you today?
Just in general, ongoingrelationship?
SPEAKER_00 (47:33):
Yeah, it's a lot of things.
I mean, I I pay attention to mydreams.
I think that I think there'sspirit in dreams.
I think the unconscious speaksto us.
Spirituality is again, in Youngpsychology, it's looking for
synchronicities.
Where do I where where do I getthese glimpses that maybe
(47:55):
there's something bigger than methat speaks to me through
coincidences or chance meetingswith people, with friendships?
And, you know, I I I read a lotof books on spirituality.
I pray, I meditate.
I think being out in nature is ahuge part of it.
So it again, I think, you know,kind of something I'm really
(48:18):
passionate about, especially inin times of like AI and kind of
computer generated spirituality,is the truth is, is there's not
there's not like a here's tenways to be more spiritual.
Here's you know what I mean?
Like here's here's three waysthat you can become more look
(48:39):
inside yourself and see whatfeeds your spirituality.
What what is what is it that youdo that makes you feel like
you're connected with thathigher part of yourself and then
engage in that and then also forme it's paying attention to like
I said before, what are thethings that that when I do them,
(48:59):
I get that feeling of like Idon't think that's probably a
good idea, Jeff.
Like what things seem todisconnect me from myself.
And then the longer I staysober, I I'm just I'm just very
sensitive to things that thatdon't feel right to me.
And I'm really sensitive to thethings that do feed my
(49:20):
spirituality.
And I just pursue those.
I pr pursue those almostobsessively.
SPEAKER_01 (49:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (49:27):
I I really do.
Uh because again, my life justis much, much better when I'm
pursuing that.
SPEAKER_03 (49:34):
Yeah, I agree.
And mine has gotten a lot moremagical over the last few years
for lack of a better word thatfeels accurate.
Um and all of literallyeverything you said is part of
that, whether it's nature orthings I read, or I also I write
down dreams.
Um mine are a little bit moremetaphorical instead of
(49:59):
specific.
Um but I just have gotten betterat understanding what that means
to me and sort of developing myown language and listening to it
and following it.
And I sort of had to get out ofmy head the idea that there's a
right way to do this.
SPEAKER_02 (50:15):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03 (50:16):
And follow what makes sense to me and kind of
like um things that I thinksociety terms like a coincidence
or a synchronicity is a lotbigger than that, usually.
And I I take it as such, and Ithink when I take it as such and
I say thank you, yes, please,then there comes more because
(50:36):
I'm listening.
Um and I just I have a lot ofevidence to support that that is
real and true and exists, andit's really powerful.
SPEAKER_00 (50:46):
Very powerful, yes.
I love how you said that too,because I you know, uh when you
said magical, and and I and Ithink again, like that that's
something that really is sick inour society, is that is that the
magic's taking away.
(51:07):
And again, that's that'ssomething that's really I want
the magic in the world.
I don't want everything to berationally explained to me
because I know that there arethings that are completely
irrational that have been someof the most beautiful
experiences that I've ever had.
I don't want somebody to I don'tneed to know like every single
(51:30):
thing that the happens in thebrain when you're in love.
Do you know what I mean?
I would much rather experiencethat than have that broken down
into some kind of formula.
unknown (51:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:41):
And I And I think that that's something with with
the just the age that we're in,that some of that magic has been
taken out.
SPEAKER_03 (51:49):
Yeah.
Does that does what you describefit your personality type?
I don't know as much anywherenear as what you probably know.
But like, does that fit who youare in terms of it?
SPEAKER_00 (52:00):
Yeah, well, yes, it does, because I'm I'm an
intuitive introvert.
SPEAKER_03 (52:05):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (52:06):
So my world is is kind of like the inner world is
is as real to me as the outerworld.
SPEAKER_03 (52:14):
Fair.
SPEAKER_00 (52:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (52:16):
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (52:17):
Yeah, and and again, like that's not to say like I'm
extremely grateful for rationalthinking and medical science and
everything that it does.
But at the same time, science isnot meant to explain the
spiritual.
unknown (52:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (52:31):
That has to be that that's supposed to be
experienced more on a differentbasis.
And I think again, that's partof where we get in trouble is
we've c society's kind of likewants to get in everybody else's
space when they'd probably bebetter staying out of it.
SPEAKER_03 (52:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (52:47):
If that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03 (52:48):
It does.
It does.
Is there anything else that youwant to share that we didn't
talk about?
SPEAKER_00 (52:53):
No, I mean, I think, you know, again, I I think we've
talked about a lot.
I've really enjoyed it.
And, you know, I it it it's thething that we talk about, and
and this is part of it too, is,you know, I I think every
individual just has to reallyfind what works for them.
I don't think I don't thinkyounging psychology is
everybody's path or that's whateverybody should be doing.
(53:16):
I don't think recovery is.
I, you know, I think really likethe individual just has to find
for themselves what reallyspeaks to their soul and their
spirit and pursue that.
But I do think that again, in mystudies in analytical
psychology, I think it'ssomething that can really help
people with with their sobrietyand their and and kind of
(53:39):
getting into the ballpark ofwhat emotional sobriety is.
Which is which is again, to me,it's just being my true self.
SPEAKER_03 (53:46):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that was really well said.
And I think again, just if ifanything has helped me the most
in all of this, it's I thinkgetting to know me more in all
of the ways, wh whichever toolsyou use, being honest about
that, and then giving myselfpermission to sort of re-
rewrite the end of the story,you know.
SPEAKER_02 (54:06):
And yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (54:09):
Yeah, I'll I'll kind of, you know, leave you with
this quote, you know, that youknow, Young often said, you
know, I am who I decide to be.
You know, and I think again, Ilike that.
I like that too, because I Ithink that that I can get lost
in this idea that that you knowthat I'm powerless to decide
(54:31):
about what my life is like orwhat it's not like.
And to some degree we we're allpowerless over what life does to
us, but I think I think thehuman spirit does have the power
to say, no, this is the life Iwant to be, and this is the
person that I want to be, and wecan move toward that.
SPEAKER_03 (54:49):
That was very well said.
SPEAKER_00 (54:50):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (54:51):
Thank you so much for just being here, for saying
yes to this, for spending timewith me on a Sunday to to just
go into all the things.
I appreciate that greatly.
SPEAKER_00 (54:59):
Sure, no, I love talking to you and uh anytime.
It was great.
SPEAKER_03 (55:06):
Thank you so much for being here.
It means more than you know.
If you enjoyed this episode,please share it with a friend or
leave a quick rating or reviewwherever you listen to podcasts.
It helps more people find theshow.
If you want more of me, head onover to nataniallison.com and
enter your name and email forbehind the scenes updates in
between shows.
New episodes air every Tuesday.
(55:26):
We'll see you next week.
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The Male Room with Dr. Jesse Mills
As Director of The Men’s Clinic at UCLA, Dr. Jesse Mills has spent his career helping men understand their bodies, their hormones, and their health. Now he’s bringing that expertise to The Male Room — a podcast where data-driven medicine meets common sense. Each episode separates fact from hype, science from snake oil, and gives men the tools to live longer, stronger, and happier lives. With candor, humor, and real-world experience from the exam room and the operating room, Dr. Mills breaks down the latest health headlines, dissects trends, and explains what actually works — and what doesn’t. Smart, straightforward, and entertaining, The Male Room is the show that helps men take charge of their health without the jargon.